    [House Hearing, 118 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

      ATHLETES AND INNOVATORS: ANALYZING NIL'S IMPACT ON ENTREPRENEURIAL
                              COLLEGIATE ATHLETES

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION
                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD
                               SEPTEMBER 20, 2023
                                   __________

                      [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 118-026
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    53-333                     WASHINGTON : 2023

                       HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                        ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                          BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                             BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                             MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                              TRACEY MANN, Kansas
                               JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                            MARC MOLINARO, New York
                             MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                               ELI CRANE, Arizona
                              AARON BEAN, Florida
                               WESLEY HUNT, Texas
                             NICK LALOTA, New York
                   NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                              JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                             KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                            DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                              GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
                           MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                      MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
                           HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                            SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
                              JUDY CHU, California
                             SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                          CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire

                      Ben Johnson, Majority Staff Director
                     Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
    Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Jeremiah Donati, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Texas
      Christian University, Fort Worth, TX...........................     7
    Mr. Gene Smith, Senior Vice President & Wolfe Foundation Endowed
      Athletic Director, The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH.....     9
    Mr. Gino Torretta, Heisman Trophy Winner, 2-Time National
      Champion, College Football Hall of Fame Inductee...............    10
    Ms. Madeline Salamone, Vice President (Attorney & Athlete
      Advocate), College Football Players Association (CFBPA),
      Sarasota, FL, testifying on behalf of CFBPA....................    11

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Mr. Jeremiah Donati, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics,
          Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, TX.................    39
        Mr. Gene Smith, Senior Vice President & Wolfe Foundation
          Endowed Athletic Director, The Ohio State University,
          Columbus, OH...............................................    41
        Mr. Gino Torretta, Heisman Trophy Winner, 2-Time National
          Champion, College Football Hall of Fame Inductee...........    44
        Ms. Madeline Salamone, Vice President (Attorney & Athlete
          Advocate), College Football Players Association (CFBPA),
          Sarasota, FL, testifying on behalf of CFBPA................    46
    Questions and Answers for the Record:
        Questions from Hon. Bean to Mr. Gene Smith and Answers from
          Mr. Gene Smith.............................................    57
    Additional Material for the Record:
        Article - Senator Ted Cruz - Austin American-Statesman.......    58
        H.R. 9698....................................................    61
        myNILpay, Inc................................................    67

      ATHLETES AND INNOVATORS: ANALYZING NIL'S IMPACT ON ENTREPRENEURIAL
                              COLLEGIATE ATHLETICS

                                  ----------

                         WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2023

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
    [chairman of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van
    Duyne, Ellzey, Molinaro, Bean, LaLota, Velazquez, Mfume,
    Landsman, McGarvey, Scholten, Thanedar, Davids, and Pappas.
        Also Present: Representative Carey.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started today, I want to
    recognize Congressman Ellzey from the great State of Texas to
    say the Pledge of Allegiance and a short prayer.
        ALL. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
    of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
    nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
    all.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Please bow.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Heavenly Father, we thank you today for the
    many blessings in our lives. We thank you for the opportunity
    to come together and respectfully share our thoughts and ideas
    for this dialogue. We pray for open hearts and open minds as we
    listen to each other and participate in this Committee hearing.
    May we engage in meaningful discussion today and remember to
    honor your will in all that we do. We ask these things in your
    name. Amen.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Also, I want to say, as we go through
    the hearing, you are going to see people coming, you are going
    to see people going. We have other hearings going on today, and
    Members are also Members of other committees. So when they get
    up and leave, don't let that alarm you. All right?
        Good morning. I now call the Committee on Small Business to
    order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the Committee at any time.
        I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
        Welcome to today's hearing which will focus on the impact
    of the NCAA's name, image, and likeness policy across college
    athletics. I would like to thank all of our witnesses here
    today for their time as we discuss this potential issue.
        For the first 115 years of the NCAA's governance over
    college sports, the individual college athlete had no legal
    right to earn a profit from their athletic performance and was
    entitled to nothing beyond room and board, meals, and
    education.
        In 2021, after a series of court cases forced the NCAA to
    change their policies, college athletics were allowed to
    monetize their name, image, and likeness overnight without
    affecting their playing eligibility, resulting in sanctions
    against their university.
        While we are still in the early years of this new NIL era,
    I think it is necessary to take a look at the positive and
    negative consequences of this drastic change in policy.
        To start with the obvious good, student-athletes can now
    profit during their time playing college sports. Of the roughly
    480,000 student-athletes, fewer than 2 percent go on to play
    professional sports, and in the first full year of NIL, there
    were almost $1 billion in deals made.
        NIL has opened up fantastic new opportunities for
    entrepreneurial college athletes to look for different avenues
    to partner with big and small businesses. This not only allows
    these students to earn money, but also allows them valuable
    business lessons that they can utilize after a time playing
    college sports. Whether it be negotiating contracts, navigating
    regulations, or being exposed by paying taxes for the very
    first time, all of these skills are extremely valuable as we
    build up a new generation of entrepreneurs.
        Additionally, small businesses have been able to utilize
    the student-athletes as a new way to market their business.
    While we often hear about high-profile athletes with their
    massive deals, this is not the norm. Many of these deals are
    made between small business in the community and athletes that
    do not have a national presence. This symbolic relationship
    helps strengthen the bonds that tie together many of these
    college towns.
        Now, while a lot of good has come from these changes for
    athletics, it has not come without some negative repercussions.
    Since there is no uniform set of regulations, individual States
    are stepping in and passing their own rules governing their
    universities. This patchwork approach is putting all the causes
    of students who compete in different States in an awkward
    position of choosing to comply with the State law, NCAA
    guidelines, or conference regulations that might be
    conflicting.
        I am glad that we have two athletic directors here today
    that understand the complexity that this is forcing their
    universities and students to navigate, who will be able to
    shine some light on what will happen if we continue that
    overreaching set of rules and regulations that everyone
    follows.
        Additionally, with so much money changing hands, there has
    been an increased number of bad actors looking to take
    advantage of these high school and college athletes. NBC News
    conducted an investigation where they reviewed dozens of NIL
    contracts offered to high school athletes. They describe many
    of the deals as exploitive, with commissions upwards of 40
    percent, along with complex fee structures meant to confuse the
    athlete. In one instance, the contract was put in front of the
    student was simply a $100,000 loan.
        While I am leery whether the federal government will be
    able to step in and to stop some of these bad actors, I think
    it is important to bring attention to this side of the issue to
    show that there is real damage being done to these kids when
    promises are being made but not kept. Without transparency
    surrounding these deals, it is hard to know who is truly
    working in the best interest of the student-athlete.
        I played college athletics myself and take this issue very
    personally. When I was in college, I received $10 a month that
    was called laundry money. I am not angry that the system has
    changed and think it has opened the door for many positive
    developments for student-athletes, but I am passionate about
    keeping the system functioning for generations to come so the
    students will be able to experience what it means to truly be a
    student-athlete.
        There are many reasons for having this hearing, but I want
    to list a few. I want to know how we can inspire student-
    athletes to utilize the skills they learn navigating NIL to
    start their own small business. I want to hear about the best
    practices that universities are doing to teach the student-
    athletes everything they need to know to take advantage of the
    amazing opportunity that wasn't available for millions of
    athletes that came before them.
        And I want to discuss the appropriate role for the NCAA
    moving forward. I want to know how collectives are helping
    student-athletes and allowing their schools to compete. I want
    to know how non-revenue generating sports will fare if all
    money gets funneled to the sports that make money. I want to
    know if Olympic and women sports are going to be negatively
    affected if revenue sharing models are implemented. And I want
    to understand how these changes are affecting graduation rates
    if student-athletes are constantly changing schools in search
    of the largest NIL deal. And I want to know how smaller market
    schools will fare if they are constantly having their players
    lured away by NIL deals. I want to know what we can do to stop
    predatory agents and bad actors from taking advantage of
    student-athletes.
        And, finally, I want to know the appropriate role that the
    federal government should play, if at all, in all of this.
        I greatly look forward to today's discussion, and I hope we
    will bring to light the different challenges and opportunities
    presented by the NIL. And it is my hope that all NIL policy
    changes are beneficial for student-athletes above all else.
        So before I yield to the Ranking Member, I would like to
    submit an op-ed from Senator Cruz on this issue into the
    record.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        I also ask unanimous consent to waive on Representative
    Mike Carey from Ohio for the purpose of giving an opening
    statement.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        With that, I yield to the distinguished Ranking Member from
    New York, Ms. Velazquez, for her opening statement.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The success of America's college students has been top of
    mind ever since I began teaching courses at New York's Hunter
    College many years ago. The NCAA's 2021 decision to allow
    college athletes to make a living off their own names, images,
    and likeness, or NIL, was welcome news.
        College athletes from underserved communities, even with
    modest deals, could finally begin building savings on
    generational wealth. Many players suddenly had a way to cover
    rent and living costs. In recent years, the launch and growth
    of the multimillion dollar collegiate athletic market has
    raised question about the way that our society treats our
    college athletes.
        Stakeholders from across the political spectrum have voiced
    concerns about gender inequity, predatory agent practices, and
    the patchwork of confusing regulations. I am concerned with the
    growing trend of booster collectives steering the largest deal
    to the top athletes in football and men's basketball. Booster
    collectives, who often closely coordinate with individual
    schools, can undermine the gender equity progress made by Title
    IX and allow the collectives to shortchange our women athletes.
        The hastily drafted and inconsistent restrictions have
    suddenly thrown college athletes into their first business
    experience. To protect them, it is critical that these students
    are well equipped with resources, know-how, and a stable
    environment to succeed and build strong brands. Otherwise, we
    run the risk of distracting our students from their educations
    and endangering their financial well-being.
        Today is our chance to learn more about the opportunities
    and risks that name, image, and likeness have created for our
    college athletes so we can understand how best to support them.
        I look forward to hearing the testimony of the witnesses.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize Representative Mike Carey from the great
    State of Ohio for his opening remarks.
        Mr. CAREY. I want to thank the Chairman, I want to thank
    the Ranking Member for giving me this opportunity to make
    remarks. NIL is an extremely important issue, and I appreciate
    the Small Business Committee for holding this very important
    hearing.
        Thank you to the witnesses for your time today. We have an
    impressive lineup of witnesses that includes Gene Smith, who is
    a good friend of mine and who has done a tremendous job leading
    ``the'' Ohio State Athletic Department over the past 18 years.
    As some of you know, Gene has recently announced his
    retirement, and although we are sorry to see you go, I would
    like to congratulate you on an incredible career.
        Mr. SMITH. Thank you.
        Mr. CAREY. Being from Columbus, Ohio, which is the home of
    the The Ohio State University, I have taken great interest in
    the implementation of NIL in college sports, leading me, along
    with my dear friend and fellow Ohioan colleague, Greg Landsman,
    to introduce the Student-Athlete Level Playing Field Act.
        In addition to earning money to help support themselves and
    their families, NIL allows student-athletes to learn about
    personal finance, marketing, taxes, and business in general.
    All of the lessons learned through NIL will supplement their
    learning in the classroom and will help set them up for a life
    after college.
        This is not to say that there aren't problems with the
    current state of the NIL. Without the proper education and
    guidance, there is a potential for student-athletes to be taken
    advantage of. And by no means am I saying that predatory
    practices are commonplace in the NIL, but it would be
    disingenuous to say that they are nonexistent.
        Another problem is that numerous States have implemented
    conflicting NIL laws, therefore, making the landscape for the
    NIL hard to navigate for both the universities as well as our
    students.
        Congress needs to pass legislation that will create a
    federal standard for NIL, focused on protecting the recruitment
    process, increasing transparency in the marketplace, and
    implementing through enforcement mechanisms against those bad
    actors. This legislation, my legislation and Greg Landsman's,
    this legislation would include the prohibition of inducements,
    a registration requirement for agents, congressional oversight,
    and the establishment of a clearinghouse for NIL deals to be
    uploaded.
        And I look forward to working with my colleagues on passing
    legislation that would create one federal standard to even the
    playing field, protect our student-athletes and the future of
    all college athletics. I feel confident in a bipartisan way
    that the House will be able to pass NIL legislation this
    Congress.
        Listen, I just want to thank you for waiving me on the
    Committee today and for holding this important hearing.
        Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Congressman.
        I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness here
    with us today is Jeremiah Donati. Mr. Donati is the director of
    intercollegiate athletics at Texas Christian University located
    in Fort Worth, Texas. Under him, the 2022-2023 season was the
    most successful in TCU's 150-year history. They were the only
    school to make it to the College Football Playoff national
    title game, College World Series, and the NCAA basketball
    tournament in the same academic year.
        While these are the most high-profile sports, TCU also saw
    success in a number of other sports with men's tennis,
    equestrian, rifle, and beach volleyball, all ranked number one
    in the nation over the course of the year.
        Prior to being appointed as director of intercollegiate
    athletics at TCU, Mr. Donati served as the Horned Frogs deputy
    athletic director. He attended the University of Puget Sound,
    earning his bachelor of arts in politics and government, then
    attended Whittier Law School where he earned his jurisprudence
    in sports and entertainment.
        Mr. Donati, thank you for being with us today, and we look
    forward to hearing from you.
        Our next witness here with us today is Mr. Gene Smith from
    a school called ``the'' school. I don't understand that. But,
    anyway, Mr. Smith is the senior vice president and athletic
    director at the The Ohio State University. Mr. Smith is only
    the eighth athletic director in Ohio State history and has had
    the third largest tenure, having served in the position since
    2005 and being promoted to senior vice president and Wolfe
    Foundation athletic director in May of 2016. Prior to his time
    at Ohio State, he served as athletic director at Arizona State
    University, Iowa State University, and Eastern Michigan
    University.
        Mr. Smith also serves in the NCAA NIL Working Group and is
    on the board of directors of the National Football Foundation,
    among others.
        Mr. Smith was a college athlete himself and attended the
    University of Notre Dame, where he received his bachelor's
    degree in business administration.
        Mr. Smith, thank you for joining us today, and we look
    forward to the conversation ahead.
        Mr. SMITH. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Our next witness here with us today is
    Mr. Gino Torretta. Mr. Torretta is a Heisman Trophy winner and
    a two-time national champion, as well as a Member of the
    College Football Hall of Fame. Mr. Torretta attended the
    University of Miami where he played for the Miami Hurricanes
    football team, winning the national championship in 1989 as
    well as in 1991. He then went on to win the Heisman Trophy in
    1992. After his time attending the University of Miami, Mr.
    Torretta played for several teams in the NFL, including the
    Minnesota Vikings, Detroit Lions, and Seattle Seahawks.
        Following his time playing for the NFL, he joined Wachovia
    Securities as a senior financial advisor and is Chairman and
    CEO of Touchdown Radio. Mr. Torretta graduated from the
    University of Miami with a degree in business management.
        Mr. Torretta, thank you for joining us today, and we look
    forward to discussing this important topic with you.
        Mr. TORRETTA. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize the Ranking Member from
    New York, Ms. Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness
    appearing before us today.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I would like to welcome Maddie Salamone, the Vice President
    of the College Football Players Association. Ms. Salamone is an
    attorney and college athlete advocate. In her college years,
    she played lacrosse for Duke University and entered her first
    year ranked number six nationwide by Inside Lacrosse. However,
    her college career also involved many battles with injuries,
    resulting in three knee surgeries. These challenges gave her a
    deep understanding of the physical, mental, and emotional
    issues that many college athletes endure.
        Ms. Salamone also Chaired the NCAA's Division I Student-
    Athlete Advisory Committee, serving on rules, legislative, and
    leadership groups. Her tireless advocacy led to the granting of
    voting power for college athletes at all levels of NCAA's
    governance. As an attorney she has represented college athletes
    on matters related to athletic eligibility, scholarship
    appeals, abuse, restricted transfer, and mental health issues.
        Ms. Salamone holds a bachelor's degree in public policy
    from Duke University and a juris doctorate from the University
    of North Carolina School of Law.
        Welcome, and thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And we appreciate all of you
    being here today.
        So before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind
    them that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in
    length. If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means
    your 5 minutes have concluded and you should wrap up your time.
        With that, I now recognize Mr. Donati for his 5-minute
    opening remarks.

    STATEMENTS OF MR. JEREMIAH DONATI, DIRECTOR OF INTERCOLLEGIATE
    ATHLETICS, TEXAS CHRISTIAN UNIVERSITY (TCU); MR. EUGENE (GENE)
        SMITH, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT & WOLFE FOUNDATION ENDOWED
     ATHLETIC, DIRECTOR, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY (OSU); MR. GINO
    TORRETTA, HEISMAN TROPHY WINNER AND TWO-TIME NATIONAL CHAMPION,
     MEMBER OF THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME; AND MS. MADELINE
         (MADDIE) SALAMONE, VICE PRESIDENT (ATTORNEY & ATHLETE
        ADVOCATE), COLLEGE FOOTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION (CFPBA)

                      STATEMENT OF JEREMIAH DONATI

        Mr. DONATI. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez,
    and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you for
    allowing me to be here today.
        As someone who is passionate about college athletics and
    the opportunity to positively impact young people's lives, it
    is an honor to testify before you at a time of great change in
    our industry. Not since the creation and implementation of
    Title IX over 50 years ago have we seen such changes of this
    magnitude. It is my hope that any experiences I can draw from
    may be helpful as we collectively seek solutions to very
    complicated issues in front of us, none larger than NIL.
        I have over 15 years of experience working in college
    athletics, and I have been the athletics director at TCU for
    the past 6 years. I also have experience working in the sports
    agency business representing the interests of professional
    athletes and coaches. I believe these experiences have given me
    a unique perspective on many aspects of our business and
    especially NIL.
        The concept of allowing student-athletes to receive
    compensation for the use of their NIL makes great sense. After
    all, the vast majority of college student-athletes will not
    play professionally, and it only seems fair that they should be
    able to monetize their skills and talents.
        In 2021, when NIL became permissible, student-athletes
    could now enjoy the same rights as ordinary college students.
    Overnight they became entrepreneurs, and almost immediately we
    began seeing them signing endorsement deals with companies and
    products. Other NIL activities soon followed: autograph
    signings, personal appearances, and community services work,
    for example. In many cases it became apparent that they were
    using this additional income to better support their families.
    This is a reality for some many of our young people that I
    believe is often overlooked and is another reason why NIL has
    been very beneficial.
        But simply putting money in the pockets of student-athletes
    is not the only value that NIL brings to their lives. There is
    a tremendous opportunity to educate and give student-athletes a
    set of tools more valuable than any NIL payment. Following
    NIL's enactment, many athletics departments, including TCU's,
    unveiled educational programs focused on financial literacy,
    contract negotiation, business formation, entrepreneurship,
    brand management, social media promotion, and taxation.
        Like others, we saw this opportunity to further our mission
    and formed a partnership between the athletics department and
    the business school to educate student-athletes on these key
    aspects of entrepreneurship. To illustrate our commitment we
    created an endowed professorship in support of NIL education,
    created courses for credit, office hours of business school
    faculty, and also dedicated a football suite in the stadium and
    converted its day-to-day use for the teaching and instruction
    of NIL entrepreneurship.
        At TCU we currently support 22 sports and over 550 student-
    athletes. To date, over half of our student-athletes have
    reported NIL deals. While football, basketball, and baseball
    have dominated national NIL headlines, I have been encouraged
    to see many other sports at TCU, especially women's sports,
    participating at a much higher level than anticipated.
        Despite the positives that have come from NIL, it has also
    come with a significant number of challenges. From the outset,
    the lack of uniformity has caused confusion amongst NCAA
    Members, respected donor bases, and student-athletes. NIL was
    implemented without the proper guardrails or mechanisms
    necessary to effectively manage these changes and,
    unfortunately, none of these shortcomings have improved, and
    the legal challenges facing the NCAA have made it difficult to
    find sustainable solutions.
        Bad actors or those who break the rules and exploit
    student-athletes for their own personal gain, pay-to-play from
    third parties, recruiting and transfer portal inducements are
    among the unintended consequences that have largely gone
    unchecked to date. We now find ourselves in a wild wild west
    environment across college athletics with little
    accountability.
        Sadly, there are countless stories of student-athletes and
    their families being exploited, deceived, and harmed for
    others' personal gain in these NIL pursuits. And while NIL
    collectives have provided universities with an efficient tool
    to fulfill NIL opportunities from donor support, the governance
    and oversight of these organizations has been inconsistent and
    in desperate need of uniform oversight.
        The good news is that there are solutions available.
    Recently, we have seen progress from federal legislative bills
    and discussion drafts. I know I am not alone in my belief that
    Congress does have the power to bring uniformity, transparency,
    and fairness to the administration of NIL through enacting
    legislation that should include, one, agent oversight; two,
    standardized contracts; three, a national clearinghouse or
    registry; four, elimination of inducements and pay for play;
    and, five, rule enforcement mechanisms.
        I speak for my athletic director colleagues when I say that
    the current model is not sustainable and that we all desire to
    see student-athletes competing under the same fundamental and
    enforceable rules. I strongly encourage this Committee and
    other Members of the House to support legislation that will
    help provide sustainable solutions to NIL while preserving the
    opportunity for student-athletes to financially benefit from
    their skills and talents during their college careers.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today,
    and I am happy to answer any questions you have.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        And I now recognize Mr. Smith for his 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                    STATEMENT OF EUGENE (GENE) SMITH

        Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
    Member----
        Mr. BEAN. Your microphone, Mr. Smith.
        Mr. SMITH. Sorry.
        Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez
    and distinguished Members of the Committee. Thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today. I will try not to be repetitious.
    I reduced my opening comments significantly as a result of what
    has been said.
        At Ohio State we have 36 athletic programs and more than a
    thousand student-athletes. We are committed to providing our
    athletes what they need to grow academically, athletically, and
    socially, and graduate with skills that transfer to success in
    life. We are focused on recruitment to career, which is
    evidenced by our over 95 percent of our graduating seniors
    moving right into jobs, graduate school, or professional
    sports.
        I significantly believe that NIL is beneficial to the
    student-athlete experience and has been more successful than
    portrayed. It was intended to allow student-athletes to enjoy
    the same privileges that other students on our campuses have,
    including the ability to monetize their personal brand or
    business acumen.
        NIL is a great educational tool, as my colleagues share.
    Student-athletes learn about a host of important
    entrepreneurial skills, such as fiscal responsibility, income
    tax management, personal brand development, and marketing. I
    believe the lessons learned from NIL further strengthen the
    holistic development of a young person and fills his or her
    toolbox for success in life.
        Our mission at Ohio State related to NIL is to inspire
    entrepreneurial and innovative thinking and ensure that
    student-athletes have the resources to create, leverage, and
    promote their personal brand. Over 420 of our student-athletes
    have at least one NIL deal. They have made over 2,000 NIL deals
    among all sports, with football and women's volleyball
    attracting the most.
        Not all student-athletes are on full scholarships. In fact,
    most Olympic sport student-athletes are on partial
    scholarships. Historically, many partial scholarship student-
    athletes graduated with debt. NIL opportunities offer the
    opportunity to possibly mitigate that debt.
        NIL implementation hasn't been without challenges, as has
    already been stated, so I won't go through my speeches on that.
        Since institutions cannot manage NIL on behalf of student-
    athletes, collectives have formed, largely 501(c)(3)s, with the
    intent of soliciting funds from passionate fans in developing
    NIL deals. As a result of an IRS interpretation, many
    collectives are now shifting to limited liability corporations.
    In many markets, the efforts of the LLCs are in direct
    competition with athletic departments. While these efforts for
    sure are beneficial to student-athletes in the short run,
    athletic directors are now finding themselves making funding
    decisions based upon declining income streams which could in
    turn hurt our student-athletes in the future.
        As has been stated, many States have created legislation to
    support their institutions' NIL activities, but there is no
    uniformity to these State laws. As you all know, we do not have
    a federal law regarding NIL.
        NIL offers tremendous opportunities for student-athletes to
    learn and grow their resources; however, protections need to be
    put in place. Like my colleague, I believe Congress needs to
    enact NIL legislation as soon as possible.
        An effective bill, in my opinion, should include: A
    national NIL standard. NIL agent registration. You commented on
    the bad actors. There are great agents out there, but there are
    some unscrupulous characters who are taking advantage of young
    people.
        Standard NIL contracts. Prohibition of inducements. The
    difference between athletics at our level and the pro sports is
    we recruit. We do not draft. Draft makes it impossible for the
    bad actors to enter that space like they do in our space.
        An NIL public registry to bring transparency to the
    marketplace. No other industry doesn't have a marketplace where
    you can actually evaluate the marketplace and make good
    decisions as you move forward in your business.
        And strong enforcement measures.
        Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify. I
    appreciate it. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        And now I recognize Mr. Torretta for his 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                       STATEMENT OF GINO TORRETTA

        Mr. TORRETTA. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez,
    and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today.
        As one who has been engaged in college athletics since
    1988, as an athlete and broadcaster, I am honored to provide
    you my insights on NIL and the impact on entrepreneurial
    athletes.
        Collegiate athletics afforded me unique opportunities to
    help me be where I am today. I grew up in a small town, Pinole,
    California. At 17 years old I decided to leave California and
    go to the University of Miami for a chance to compete for a
    national championship and earn a degree.
        I spent 5 years there, was a Member of two national
    championship teams. After my senior season in 1992, won the
    Maxwell Trophy, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the Walter
    Camp Player of the Year, Toyota Leadership Award, NCAA Top 6
    Award, and every award that I could win or you could win as a
    offensive player in collegiate football. Spent 5 years in the
    National Football League.
        But during my time as a Miami Hurricane, the NCAA had rules
    in place regarding transfers, and there was no ability to
    monetize name, image, and likeness. With the passage of NIL and
    the creation of the transfer portal, athletes are able to work,
    monetize their success in their sports, essentially allowing
    all athletes to create their own small business and capitalize
    on their time competing in college.
        This NIL window provides athletes with a head start in
    earning and saving before graduation and entrance into their
    chosen professional field, which for the majority will not be
    in professional sports. These experiences will be beneficial in
    their lives going forward.
        In college athletics, one can always find examples of a
    player and/or institution not following the rules. When these
    rules have been broken in the past, it led to an athlete losing
    eligibility, schools being placed on probation, fines, bowl
    bans, et cetera. With the current NIL system, there is no
    standard set of rules. The NCAA lacks the enforcement teeth,
    and they only place guidelines on schools, and they are
    following State laws that are essentially different.
        Coaches in any sport do not devise game plans within a
    different set of rules. They create game plans to follow the
    rules, one set of rules that are set for all of them to follow.
    And because the NCAA has failed to issue one set of rules for
    these schools to follow, I believe it is important that
    Congress needs to step forward and give a level of the playing
    field across the board with all universities amongst all
    sports, male, female, football, basketball, baseball,
    gymnastics, whatever sport it is.
        And I think that is really why we are here today, to hear
    the testimony. And I, again, thank you for the opportunity, and
    I look forward to answering any questions you may have.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        And I now recognize Ms. Salamone for her 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                STATEMENT OF MADELINE (MADDIE) SALAMONE

        Ms. SALAMONE. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez,
    and Members of the House committee, thank you for having me
    here today.
        Our other vice president, Justin Falcinelli, is also in the
    audience today, and I just want to recognize him as well.
        My time as Chair of the Division I Student-Athlete Advisory
    Committee taught me that the only time there is real change was
    when the NCAA felt public pressure after media coverage
    revealed the truth of what was going on in college sports. This
    is the reason I continue to advocate for athletes, and I have
    become a leading voice for NCAA reform and college athletes'
    rights over the years, speaking out publicly, consulting with
    leaders and lawmakers across the country, and providing insight
    into the ongoing major issues within college sports.
        The Committee convened this hearing to discuss name, image,
    and likeness in college sports and its impact on
    entrepreneurial athletes. My understanding is that Members of
    this Committee are concerned about a number of news reports and
    the overall impact of NIL. Though I will also address the main
    topic at hand, the truth of the matter is that the continual
    discussion about NIL, antitrust exemptions, and even employment
    status of athletes are a distraction created by the NCAA and
    member schools and exacerbated by the media's constant coverage
    of the topic.
        The most important issues that must be addressed in college
    sports are the abuse, mistreatment, and lack of attention to
    player health and safety at the hands of coaches and support
    staff. Even in the wake of recent allegations of mistreatment
    that demonstrate a cultural issue within college sports, it is
    incredible how quickly the focus has shifted back to NIL being
    the most important issue at hand. No matter where we land with
    NIL, we will have failed college athletes if we continue to
    ignore the much more important issues of player health and
    well-being, which impacts players' lives both during and after
    college.
        The primary remedy for athlete mistreatment is to have
    external independent oversight by individuals who are not
    employed by the schools. Schools have repeatedly demonstrated
    that they can cannot be trusted to police themselves. There are
    countless stories of individuals who have reported problematic
    coaches and staff and are subsequently silenced, fired, or
    otherwise ignored and pushed out. It usually follows that the
    more powerful and successful a coach, the more people's jobs
    are at risk if they speak out and the harder schools will work
    to silence anyone making noise.
        For every scandal that has been made public, there are
    countless others that remain an open secret on campuses across
    the country. Players need accessible help they can trust with
    roles clearly defined. There must be independent oversight of
    practices, team meetings, and medical care. Players need access
    to individuals from whom they can seek advice and help without
    the fear that that individual break confidences and cause more
    harm. They need someone whose obligation is to them and not to
    the school, someone who can act as a mediator whenever
    necessary and advise players on the best course of action. And
    they must have independent authority to take appropriate action
    with the information once they have it, including the ability
    to investigate reported issues and bring issues to the
    attention of the administration without risking their jobs.
    Those individuals need to be trained to handle confidential
    information and exercise discretion and tact in addressing
    matters.
        I hope we get a chance to discuss these very important and
    more pressing matters of college athlete health, safety, and
    welfare during this hearing.
        What is interesting to me about the reason we are all here
    today is that we are discussing NIL as if it is a new,
    complicated subject, but it really isn't. Nothing about this
    area of the law is new, only how it applies to college
    athletes. It is really just the right of publicity, which is
    another way of describing a person's right to control the
    commercial use of their identity and image.
        For years, the names and likenesses of professional
    athletes, models, actors, and artists have been used to promote
    and endorse products and services or to raise awareness about
    an issue. Past NCAA rules were simply preventing athletes from
    exercising the same rights already available to everyone else.
        Now something we don't talk about is the additional
    benefits NIL actually gives beyond the financial. In addition
    to the nearly limitless entrepreneurial opportunities that
    athletes have and can now pursue, NIL has tremendous
    educational value as well. Athletes are developing skills that
    are directly applicable to the modern job market, including
    content creation, direct sales, promotions, contract
    negotiation, brand development and management, and social
    media.
        Athletes more than ever are encouraged to think about what
    they want to do after their playing days are over and to start
    setting themselves up for the future they want while they are
    in school. Previous generations of athletes had nowhere near
    the same opportunities to gain real-world experience or prepare
    for their futures as current athletes.
        I outlined in my written testimony areas where the NIL
    space could be improved for college athletes, particularly
    around education, assistance with review of contracts, and
    agent regulation. But I believe these are relatively minor
    concerns within the overall landscape of college sports reform.
        As I have discussed, it is time to finally focus on the big
    picture in college sports. We cannot allow any more athletes to
    be negatively impacted by issues that are so preventable with
    the right oversight. Schools must be required to direct
    spending towards resources that will address the biggest issues
    these students are faced with, which is their mental and
    physical health. These issues have the potential to negatively
    impact the rest of their lives, way beyond college.
        With the influx of revenue from the college football
    playoff expansion, in addition to revenue pouring in from
    massive media rates deals----
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The witness' time is up.
        Ms. SALAMONE. Apologies. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        My first question will be to Mr. Donati. There has been a
    lot of concern about the patchwork regulatory framework that
    student-athletes need to navigate in order to play by the new
    rules. In addition to the NCAA policy, students have to abide
    by State law as well as rules set by their school and their
    conference.
        Some have asked for a federal solution to this problem in
    order to simplify compliance. Now, while I agree that a uniform
    standard would provide certainty so that everyone is playing by
    the same rules, finding that appropriate solution is a
    difficult task. So my question is: What do you think the role
    of the federal government should have in the NIL space, if any?
        Mr. DONATI. Well, I would say it would be to work with the
    NCAA. I don't think any of my colleagues or I expect the
    federal government to supplant the NCAA, but the nature of NIL,
    the complexities that come with it--and you mentioned the
    patchwork State laws have made this unmanageable. And so my
    colleague, Mr. Smith, and I believe the federal government can
    be involved in a number of ways.
        You mentioned the agent issue. I think that is an easy one
    to address. I think there is a need for a national
    clearinghouse or transparency into these deals that I think the
    federal government can be involved with. And then the big
    question regarding the NCAA is how you enforce these rules, and
    I think that the federal government could play a major part
    there as well.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. With the time remaining, Mr. Smith,
    would you like to add to that?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I would agree with my colleague that those
    are the areas where the federal government can help the most.
    But the single most important element, in my view, is the
    inconsistency across the country relative to State laws.
        The NCAA, even if we had the ability or the model to come
    up and address the other issues, I think it would be difficult
    for the NCAA to come up with a strategy to create a level
    playing field across this country when it comes to the multiple
    State laws. I believe it is 18 States that have State laws that
    are different today. So I think we certainly need help in that
    particular area.
        And then my second one is around agents. I will just refer
    directly to what Ms. Salamone said. Student-athletes are being
    taken advantage of, and that is saddening. It is sickening to
    read some of the reports where we allow all the unscrupulous
    characters to enter the space--and you refer to as bad actors--
    and ultimately take advantage of families and young people,
    particularly people from disadvantaged environments. So that
    area is one that I think the federal government can help us in,
    big time.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you.
        The first year of the NIL era saw nearly a billion dollars'
    worth of deals, and there is nothing to hint that this number
    is slowing down anytime soon. The explosion of money and lack
    of uniform guardrails has led to what some describe as
    America's new wild west, and we have heard that today.
    Unfortunately, there are some bad actors that are exploiting
    the system at the expense of young athletes.
        We have heard horror stories, such as contracts giving a
    company the right to use an athlete's name and image in
    perpetuity for their brand. And one student-athlete moved from
    Georgia to California on an NIL promise, only to be suspended
    by California governing bodies and suspended from playing for a
    year. Further, a recent lawsuit filed by a former University of
    Florida athlete alleged that a predatory loan was disguised as
    an NIL deal that included turning over 15 percent of any future
    professional football earnings.
        So, Mr. Smith, my question to you: What can be done to
    improve NIL's guardrails to ensure that student-athletes are
    not being taken advantage of by these bad actors?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I think, again, that is where law needs to
    come into play. And those people who take advantage of--in
    particular the one you mentioned, the Florida student-athlete,
    who now is looking at a lawsuit where he has signed to pay 16
    percent of his future earnings to a collective, that requires
    national law. That is not something that the NCAA can deal
    with.
        So, in my view, you know, we need governmental help in that
    particular space.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Thank you.
        Real quick, Mr. Torretta, you have got one of the most
    impressive resumes any college football player could dream of.
    Can you walk through real quick through your time playing
    football at Miami, from your first start to winning the Heisman
    Trophy, and describe to us how your story might have played out
    differently in NIL?
        Mr. TORRETTA. Well, in 1989, we had an injury, so I started
    four games in the middle of our national championship year,
    broke the school record for passing in my second start, which
    is still considered QBU, I think. And at the end of the four
    games, I went back to the bench and knew I was going to sit the
    bench the following season.
        So in today's day and age of a transfer portal, I would
    have probably looked elsewhere, because back when I was in
    school, you had to sit out a full season. There would have
    probably been inducements of NIL money of come to whatever
    school, pick your school. And my story probably doesn't turn
    out like it has today.
        So for the good of NIL and transfer portal, there is
    probably also the bad. The grass is not always greener on the
    other side.
        I think in all of these questions, it is going to take an
    adult to step forward and to protect--I will call these kids,
    because from 18 to 22, you are still a kid in my eyes. And, you
    know, whether that is Congress or the NCAA, an adult needs to
    step forward, put up some guardrails, and give some enforcement
    teeth to actual rules.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of
    questions.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Salamone, as you wrote in your testimony, many booster
    collectives tend to steer NIL deals primarily to male college
    athletes. Could you confirm for us whether this distribution is
    proportionate among men and women?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I would say that primarily the collectives
    are steering money towards football athletes over every other
    sport, and so that is disproportionately male as compared to
    female.
        You know, I had someone explain a collective to me in, I
    thought, a very good way, and it was described as a fan club
    and that these collectives basically operate at the behest of
    the coaches to direct funds to specific players that they sort
    of identify.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. This is happening because booster
    collectives aren't regulated by Title IX, correct?
        Ms. SALAMONE. In part. I think that the collectives came
    about as a result of schools not wanting to deal with the funds
    because they were concerned about having to comply with Title
    IX, and this is sort of a workaround. I think the relationship
    is so closely knit at this point that Title IX should apply to
    collective funds.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Would you agree that booster collectives who
    coordinate closely with their school ought to be considered
    extensions of their school outright and, therefore, subject to
    Title IX regulations?
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yes. Collectives at this point effectively
    are extensions of the schools.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Ms. Salamone, some stakeholders worry that
    the predominance of social media influencing deals in the NIL
    market for women college athletes is incentivizing them to post
    suggestive content.
        Ms. SALAMONE. So I think that this is maybe a greater
    societal issue. I know that there are certainly athletes--it is
    an issue with female athletes feeling pressure to post certain
    types of posts that might gain more attention. I think that
    what that comes down to is a greater need for messaging around
    that and conversations with female athletes in particular
    about, I think, staying authentic, doing things that make you
    feel comfortable, not feeling pressured by an agent or anybody
    else.
        You know, there are a lot of social media branding
    specialists that are encouraging athletes to do all sorts of
    things on social media, and I think it is becoming a pressure,
    and I think that schools should step in and kind of remind
    athletes that they should not feel added pressure to do those
    things.
        But, again, I think females in society on social media feel
    the same pressure. I don't think that it is unique to female
    athletes at this point. So that is maybe a greater debate about
    whether we feel comfortable with, I think, the pressures on
    women in general to post certain posts on social media if that
    is not what they are comfortable with.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Race and sexual orientation play immense
    roles in this dynamic, as I see it. Is there a correlation
    between successful female NIL earners and more traditional race
    and sexual orientation identification?
        Ms. SALAMONE. So I think what you are asking is are they
    feeling pressured because they see the success of other people
    making money on social media. Certainly. And, again, I will go
    back to I think that is a greater pressure that content
    creators in general feel when they see things that are working
    for other content creators. And I think it goes back to
    athletes needing to be reminded to stay true to themselves, not
    to feel the pressure, to focus on their sports. But they are
    going to feel it. They are part of--this new generation, they
    grew up in the social media world. It is a reality. They have a
    different mindset than we do when it comes to that. And so that
    has to be taken into consideration. But certainly I think that
    when anybody sees what someone else is doing as being
    successful, they are inclined to want to copy that.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
        You placed great emphasis in your testimony upon the need
    to prioritize health, safety, and well-being for college
    athletes and any congressional action in this space. Can you
    explain why this is critical to the success of the NIL
    businesses?
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yes. If an athlete is being abused, if they
    are mentally suffering, just like any normal person in
    business, if they are not taking care of themselves and living
    a well-balanced life being taken care of, their businesses are
    going to suffer. They go hand-in-hand.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Based on your experience, can you tell me
    and the Committee if colleges are putting resources into
    helping athletes?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I think that many schools are putting
    resources. I think there is a tremendous gap in the education,
    and I will touch on my fellow panelists here. I think one of
    the ways that we can address some of the contractual issues and
    the agent issues is to educate about things to look for in
    contracts, what kind of practices to watch out for and how to
    guard against them.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize Representative Meuser from the great State
    of Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MEUSER. I thank the Chairman very much.
        Gentlemen, lady, thanks for being with us. It is always
    enjoyable, it seems, to talk about football, particularly in
    the middle of the day or late morning on a Wednesday. But these
    are some pretty important subjects we have got here, and the
    idea of us having congressional legislation seems to be agreed
    upon by all.
        So when I conclude, I am going to ask you, who has got the
    plan? You clearly are all the specialists in this and have
    great experiences and tenure, but, you know, think about that a
    little bit. Who else do we go to for the gaining and
    developing, creating the right plan moving forward?
        Because the thing is that I think no one disagrees that a
    student-athlete--I have always felt, I mean, from the days of
    Tim Tebow, for instance, right, he was great in college and
    made it to the NFL, but the idea that he couldn't get a Nike
    contract, whatever it might be, never made any sense to me.
        My son actually plays at Bucknell, 1A. They have a good
    time. But the idea that they couldn't use their name for, say,
    a local business or car dealership perhaps to help promote
    never really made any sense, kind of having a side job.
        But this has gone further, right? Now we have alumni
    basically coming together, my understanding, putting millions
    of dollars into a pot or some schools maybe tens of thousands,
    where one is tens of millions, and doling that out to gain the
    best quarterbacks, the best team possible with contractors that
    really have no regulations or jurisdiction, where some States
    are putting themselves in the middle of it.
        So the first question is: Do you think we have got a
    problem just with that amount of money going for this purpose,
    yet the revenues from the football cannot be used--you know,
    for the football programs cannot be used. Are we--with that
    funding from generous donors or donors who just want to win
    football games perhaps, but either way, would it be going
    elsewhere? That is question number one. I mean, is it being
    pulled from other funding that would build a library perhaps,
    Mr. Donati?
        Mr. DONATI. Absolutely, to answer your question directly.
    The money that is being put into NIL is--there are donors
    making a decision of how they are going to best support the
    university, whether it is through supporting NIL with the
    student-athletes or funding a building or a scholarship. And so
    we are seeing that in real time, and we are having to--as
    athletic directors having to make adjustments of our budget
    accordingly.
        Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Okay. So that is a big yes.
        Mr. Smith--sorry, my glasses aren't working so great here--
    do you agree with that?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think one thing
    we have to recognize is that there are over 350 Division I
    schools in this country, and the diversity in how they are
    financed is significantly different. Many of the schools that
    we are blessed to have in our country who educate our children,
    the athletic departments are funded through the university
    general funds or student fees. They are not like Ohio State.
    You know, we generate $250 million externally through our
    revenue generation plan which covers our expenses, and we
    contribute dollars back to the institution. So we are a
    different beast.
        Part of the realities is that we are listening to comments
    about places that don't do it right. We educate our student-
    athletes. We do not have the same issues relative to
    fundraising that my colleague mentioned, because our donors are
    going to support us at the end of the day.
        So the diversity in our business is significant. And so I
    think we need to recognize that and pay attention to that
    because, in my view, the plan is represented in some of the
    bills that have been offered, support--well, Mike Carey's bill
    significantly, but there are other plans that the NCAA is
    working on that I think, you know, need to be put in place to
    allow more institutional involvement. It gets to the Title IX
    question.
        Mr. MEUSER. Yeah.
        Mr. SMITH. At the end of the day, I am going to make sure
    we meet Title IX. That is not some outside entity that is going
    to make that determination.
        So it is a long speech to your question.
        Mr. MEUSER. No, I appreciate it.
        Mr. SMITH. But that is the reality.
        Mr. MEUSER. I will just go to Mr. Torretta real fast, same
    question.
        Mr. TORRETTA. I would just say under the current system the
    universities are getting free labor still, because the
    additional cash is coming from boosters to the players and the
    student-athletes. So I think that is where--you know, is it a
    percentage of revenue to the student-athletes? But under the
    current system, really, the student-athlete doesn't cost the
    university any more.
        Mr. MEUSER. I am out of time. I would like to follow up and
    ask you what problems are created from that, some unintended
    consequences.
        But I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great
    State of Kentucky for 5 few minutes.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And being from Kentucky, we love our college sports, so
    this is of particular interest to me. I am going to say,
    though, this is the first time on our Committee I have seen an
    organization come forward before us who doesn't have its act
    together and is so inept that they are actually asking the
    government to take over what is going on and regulate this.
        You know, I was the senate minority leader in the State of
    Kentucky. I was the first person to introduce the name, image,
    and likeness bill in Kentucky. I worked with our university to
    author it. Passed it. Within 6 months it was basically
    obsolete. We had good things in their, including registry of
    agents which you are talking about. We had good things in their
    protecting the players. I am very much about the players, their
    safety, their well-being.
        We had a provision in there which I liked that I haven't
    heard anybody talk about today, which is if you sign the
    contract as a student-athlete in college, it was void if you
    wanted it to be when you went professional. Therefore, you
    know, we have got some 17-, 18-year-old kids who are signing up
    for contracts when they go to college. If they are one and done
    in basketball, they are not obligated to that after they go. I
    think there is some good things we can do.
        But here's the thing, right? The NCAA is the best
    institution to handle this. The next best institution is us.
    The last institution are your State legislatures, which I am a
    State legislator at heart. I love what they do. But you saw an
    arms race and this patchwork of laws which has led us to being
    hear today.
        But here is my warning. Just like what we did in Kentucky,
    when you needed a change, you have got to go back to the State
    legislature. When you all are asking the United States
    Government where it will literally take an act of Congress to
    change something once we let it out loose in the wild, is the
    NCAA so inept right now that this is something Congress must
    legislate?
        Mr. TORRETTA. Somebody needs to step forward, and
    apparently they are not stepping forward to create some--like,
    I mean, essentially what we all want is a level playing field
    amongst TCU, Ohio State, Miami, Kentucky, Texas where the
    athletes and athletic departments are playing by the same set
    of rules. I mean, like--you know, you line up on Saturday. You
    know there is going to be 11 on defense. Is Kentucky going to
    play with 12 without the same set of rules as Florida?
        So that is what I think everybody wants to protect, you
    know, the games that they all play. And it is apparent the NCAA
    isn't going to step forward, so I think that is why we are here
    to say, maybe Congress can, you know, put the impetus on the
    NCAA to say here are things that need to happen; do it.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. And I appreciate that. And I will take some
    of the silence as an answer. And so I think we do need to step
    forward, and we have got to make sure that we are protecting
    players, that we are creating that level playing field, that it
    is a national standard. We are missing the national standard
    right now. That is something we need.
        Ms. Salamone, I have a question for you specifically. How
    can we use a name, image, and likeness? If we are going to do
    this, let's do it. Let's do it right. Let's do it for the
    players. Let's not try to come back here and fix it. How do we
    improve player health and safety standards including in the
    years after their careers are over?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I think that we start with
    independent oversight, as I mentioned in my testimony
    previously, and you need organization of players. They need to
    be able to collectively bargain. That is what we are trying to
    do at the College Football Players Association. I think it
    would take care of a lot of the issues that the NCAA is
    concerned with when it comes to issues of antitrust, because if
    players are given a seat at the table and are able to talk
    about the issues that are most important, nobody has to guess.
    And legislators don't have to come in and create legislation
    that really doesn't quite hit on the issues that actually
    matter to players. The only way to know that is to talk to the
    players themselves. So that is the answer.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. I appreciate that. And, you know, I wish we
    had a ton more time because this is an important topic. There
    are a lot of things we have to deal with, including the fact
    that the transfer portal has basically become an extortion
    market as we see it today. How do we make this so it is right?
        Regards to student-athlete well-being, though--and one
    thing about athlete well-being, I see this conference
    realignment stuff going on right now. If you have got an
    athlete at the University of Louisville who is flying now to
    Cal or to Stanford, how does that impact player well-being?
    What does that do for player athletes?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I will comment that I didn't go to
    Stanford specifically. I wouldn't go on a recruiting visit
    because for lacrosse it meant traveling so much to play anybody
    good at the time that I was in college. It has a tremendous--it
    adds--it means for most of the sports that don't have chartered
    flights, flights in the middle of the night. It is exhausting.
    It is going across time zones. Athletes can't get any work
    done. They are barely in class. You know, it doesn't make any
    sense. And the fan bases are then all over the place. It is
    actually fun to be able to go kind of local to play and have
    rivals that are nearby.
        So, I mean, it makes absolutely no sense to have coast-to-
    coast conferences.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you.
        Unfortunately, I am out of time because I have got a lot
    more questions, as you guys can probably tell. I want to get
    this--I think we do have to step in. I think we do have to step
    up, and I want to make sure we get it right because you
    literally will have to get Congress to act again if you want to
    change something.
        Thank you, guys.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize Representative Van Duyne from the great
    State of Texas for 5 minutes.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you to our witnesses for coming today.
        I just have a few questions. I did not go to a competitive
    athletic school. Mr. Meuser and I went to the same
    undergraduate school. We are not known for our football team.
        Fair statement?
        Mr. MEUSER. Fair. Very fair.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Can I just ask, though, how difficult will
    it be for smaller schools to be able to stay competitive when
    the larger schools can afford to pay athletes more?
        And I am not quite sure which of you would like to answer
    that question. But how? How are some of the smaller schools
    going to be able to compete with a school that can raise $250
    million like that and know that they are going to be able to do
    that?
        Mr. DONATI. Well, I will take that.
        Well, that is not new, right? I mean, The Ohio State
    University--did I say that right?
        Mr. SMITH. Yes.
        Mr. DONATI.--has always been one of the largest State
    institutions in our country, and so schools have found other
    ways to compete. I think what is different here is the amount
    of money that is going unchecked into the NIL world and to the
    NIL business.
        So it is a reality. It is a--but there are ways--there is a
    lot of talent in our country. So I don't--while there are some
    competitive inequities with the money, you know, I am more
    focused on the rules by which we are playing by and finding one
    set of rules. Because we had talked about the difference, the
    patchwork in State laws; those are providing the competitive
    inequities, in my opinion.
        So the money is--that is not new. There is going to be
    large schools with larger donor bases and alumni bases----
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah.
        Mr. DONATI.--and smaller schools----
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr.----
        Mr. DONATI. Sorry.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay. So you are just saying it is not new.
        Mr. DONATI. Yeah.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Smith, do you have--nothing?
        Mr. SMITH. No, I agree. It is----
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
        Mr. SMITH.--not new. It is just a----
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. It is just another tool?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, it is just another tool.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
        Mr. SMITH. One of the challenges, using your words--if the
    institutions had this model and they were paying the money,
    then the challenges will be at those smaller schools, how do
    they afford to do it, even at their level, regardless of where
    we are.
        You know, if you are looking at the Mid-American
    Conference--and I know my colleagues are here from the Mid-
    American Conference. If you look at the Mid-American
    Conference, those presidents will have to make a decision on
    whether or not they continue to fund athletics at the level
    that they have been funding them.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Uh-huh.
        Mr. SMITH. Because the majority of their money for those
    athletic programs comes from their general funds. Students on
    the campuses will have to decide whether they want to continue
    pay students' fees to support athletics, because, now you are
    paying the athletes that I go to school with?
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah.
        Mr. SMITH. So there are a lot of dynamics at that level
    that will come into play if we end up there.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Speaking of dynamics, how difficult do you
    think it will be to coach students that are actually making
    more money than the coaches?
        Nobody wants to answer that one.
        Mr. TORRETTA. I don't think that is going to happen at Ohio
    State or TCU. So. That is all I am saying. If I may answer your
    question, ma'am, they can't, those smaller schools.
        But I would say this----
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah?
        Mr. TORRETTA.--You know, if a school like Harvard, with the
    largest endowment in the world, wanted to really invest in
    their football program, they could probably spend as much as
    Gene.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Harvard beats my alma mater, by the way.
        Mr. DONATI. I would just say that I think our coaches
    recognize this is a different environment.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
        Mr. DONATI. So it hasn't been a challenge we have seen yet.
        Ms. SALAMONE. I would also add that I think that there
    needs to be mindset shift and the coaches need to get over
    their own egos when it comes to that and be encouraging their
    athletes to set themselves up for a future of success. That
    should be the focus.
        It is an educational institution that they are coaching at.
    If they want to coach in the pros, then they should do that.
    But that is not the role of a coaching college.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. So you don't think, though, that students
    would get more full of themselves if they were making a lot
    more money and being very difficult to coach? And still being
    students, as opposed to professional athletes----
        Ms. SALAMONE. They might very well be. But I think that if
    a coach demands the respect of their team, it doesn't matter
    how much the team is making. And I think that is the deeper
    issue, is that these coaches haven't figured that out.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
        Quick question. Mr. Smith, can you explain what collectives
    are and the impact that they have had on college sports? And do
    you agree with Ms. Salamone's description as ``fan clubs''?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I don't disagree with her description.
        You know, they emerged as 501(c)(3)s, and now they are
    switching to--a great deal--to LLCs. And they are creating
    activities and events and podcasts and things of that nature,
    with memberships and things of that nature.
        And then--but some of them are legitimately helping
    student-athletes connect with local businesses and are actually
    doing real good NIL work. But they are largely fan clubs, yes.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative Landsman
    from the great State of Ohio.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you all for being here.
        As Mr. Carey said before he had to leave, also from Ohio,
    the two of us have a bipartisan bill, the student-athlete Level
    Playing Field Act, which I believe is straightforward and, you
    know, would be a win for this Congress.
        It creates the kind of structure and transparency that we
    have been talking about in this hearing. The three things that
    have come up--the national oversight, the national
    clearinghouse; making sure that folks who are part of these
    transactions, these agents, are registered; and that the deals
    are disclosed, that kind of transparency.
        Question for all of you: Thoughts on the bill? My hope is
    that we take this bill up as a Congress, that it gets passed,
    and it provides meaningful structure and transparency. I am
    just curious what your opinions are on those three aspects of
    the bill or the bill itself.
        Mr. DONATI. Well, I will take it first.
        Those were some of, I think, the critical aspects--and,
    first of all, thank you for bringing this forward. But those
    are some of the critical aspects that we are all looking for.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
        Mr. DONATI. So I commend you for bringing that forward. I
    would definitely support that.
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I concur. I thank you as well. I think the
    bill has all the elements that are needed to help us in this
    space, so I support it wholeheartedly. I think it is a good
    bill, and I believe many of my colleagues would as well.
        Mr. TORRETTA. I mean, I think transparency, registration is
    what the world needs, but I also think you need some
    enforcement. And who is going to do the enforcing? Is that
    going to be the NCAA? Is that--you know. If they are not going
    to step forward, then Congress has to step forward and say----
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
        Mr. TORRETTA.--``You have to enforce it.''
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Agreed.
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah, I would agree that I think some of the
    issues with the bills that I have seen are the mechanisms by
    which they accomplish the goals that they say. Because they are
    not bad goals, necessarily; it is just the ``how''----
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
        Ms. SALAMONE.--and whether it really is more appropriate
    for that to happen through collective bargaining and figuring
    that out, some of these issues.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Can you say more on that?
        Ms. SALAMONE. So some of the issues that are being
    addressed in many of these bills, it is like ``everything and
    the kitchen sink.'' And it is what I alluded to earlier, with
    legislators trying to put in things that they think will be a
    good idea and in practice work but may not actually address the
    deeper issues that athletes have and what they really want
    fixed.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Yeah.
        So, to that point, I mean, you talk about, rightfully so,
    the safety, health, the well-being of athletes being critical,
    most important, and supporting efforts to create structure,
    transparency in the NIL space, but to also appreciate that
    there are these other issues.
        This may be a dumb question. Should those be taken up
    separately? I mean, you know, I--or, how related are they?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I am generally of the opinion that they
    should be separate. I think that these bills are trying to do
    too much----
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
        Ms. SALAMONE.--and they are ineffective and will not pass.
    So that is my opinion.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. And, then, on the health and safety piece----
        Ms. SALAMONE. Uh-huh.
        Mr. LANDSMAN.--I mean, it is, I would think, something very
    similar. I mean, it is national oversight.
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah. And those are deeper issues that
    require more attention. And I think that many of these bills
    have been kind of rushed through, and I think more thought
    needs to be given into the ``how''s of the bills.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. So, just as we wrap up, with a minute to go,
    this bill, I suspect, will get combined with others, but my
    hope is that we get something passed. It has been several years
    where we have been living in this Wild West world.
        The most important aspects, I am assuming, are the national
    oversight, the transparency, and then, ultimately, the right
    enforcement mechanism. Is that right? Wrong?
        Mr. DONATI. Yeah, absolutely. And I would just add, the
    agent oversight as well.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Yeah.
        Gene?
        Mr. SMITH. Agree.
        Mr. TORRETTA. Well, the other, inducements of a kid
    transferring from----
        Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
        Mr. TORRETTA.--one institution to the other, and even
    inducing a 17-year-old to say where they are going to go to
    college, which is part of the whole problem.
        Ms. SALAMONE. I would add, to the inducements, though, I
    think that the NCAA can actually step in. And I think they have
    kind of abdicated the throne in an effort to get an antitrust
    exemption, rather than just enforcing the rules that they can
    enforce.
        Mr. LANDSMAN. My time has expired, but I appreciate you
    all. That is very helpful. Thank you all.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. I will now recognize Representative
    Ellzey from the great State of Texas.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you all for being here today. This is an important
    hearing.
        And, you know, I don't know if the Chairman mentioned it or
    not, because he is always very humble about this, but he is in
    the TCU Hall of Fame. And I won't tell you what year that he
    got inducted.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Your time is up.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
        But, you know, he is great at telling stories about how it
    was, being drafted by the Braves and being a college athlete
    and how little money they made.
        My grandfather, Drew Ellis, was in the class of 1937 with
    Slingin' Sammy Baugh and was in the draft, 21st in the draft,
    in 1937. Played for the Eagles for 2 years, 1938 and 1939. Was
    cut short. Don't know why. He probably got injured.
        But, you know, as we talk about this subject, it is--how
    much could it have helped Roger? How much could it have helped
    my grandfather? How much can it help these young men and women
    that are going through this today.
        And I agree with the Chairman that we don't want Congress
    making the rules here, but it is clear that there needs to be
    some definite readjustment of how we do this. Because so many
    of these young men and women--I know at 18 I wouldn't have had
    any ability--or 20 or 22, 25--had any ability to handle the
    amount of massive money that these kids are dealing with.
        So I would just like to suggest and ask Director Donati:
    Having been an agent before and now being an athletic director,
    holistically, how do you guide these young men and women? What
    do you automatically do, but what do you think should be done
    system-wide, to ensure that these young men and women, who may
    not have any background or guidance from home or direction in
    their lives, learn how to manage that money and how to prepare
    themselves for the future, for the 2-year football player who
    suddenly doesn't have a degree, or much of one, and no ability
    to make a living after that.
        So they monetize their college years, but then they are out
    on the street, and then they are doing construction later on.
    We see it all the time in the pros.
        How are we going to do that with these young college
    students?
        Mr. DONATI. Well, it is to double-down on education. And
    that is a key aspect of this. And you heard my colleague bring
    it up, as well, as a Hall of Fame Chairman.
        One of the first things that we lead off our semester with,
    or lead out the school year with, is the NIL education. Because
    we realize that, in these transfer portal days, if students
    feel like they are misadvised or not given appropriate advice,
    they have other options, which I think is a good thing.
        So we take it very seriously, because they are--you know,
    one of the things that keeps me up at night is April 15th,
    because that is when taxes come due. And so we spend a lot of
    time with our young men and women to make sure that they have
    done the appropriate work, they are filing their taxes, and
    that they are not getting themselves in future trouble.
        So I would just say, we take this very seriously. I draw on
    my time from being an agent, part of the NFL PA here, when we
    were certified in Washington, D.C. There are rules in place in
    which you can weed out the bad actors. And so I think that kind
    of standard, that kind of uniform standard, at the federal
    level would do massive good in our world right now.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Thank you.
        Director Smith, you are from which OSU?
        Mr. SMITH. Would you like me to spell that for you?
        Mr. ELLZEY. Sorry. I had to.
        Mr. SMITH. I am on the way out, so I can--you know, be
    careful.
        Mr. ELLZEY. In deference to you, The Ohio State
    University----
        Mr. SMITH. Yes.
        Mr. ELLZEY.--are you all doing something similar to TCU?
        Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. We do the same thing.
        But I want to address a little bit, kind of, nuance to your
    question.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
        Mr. SMITH. Let's be clear: We do a lot of education, all of
    our schools do, but it is the third party that impresses that
    individual. It is an ``uncle who is not an uncle'' that is very
    difficult for us to get to. And many of these deals are cut by
    them. And so that is a challenge that we have in our space and
    why we need help.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Do you know, would you have benefited from that
    kind of guidance?
        Mr. TORRETTA. Well, I think you read about it in
    professional baseball, basketball, football, all kinds of
    issues that you are talking about, where a player has made
    significant amounts of money and they weren't wise with it or
    they were taken advantage of. And I think that it is happening
    now to, like you said, a 17- to 21-year-old kid.
        And you can try to educate as much as possible, but, like
    Gene said, you may have somebody that is close to you, maybe a
    family member, that, you know, when money is involved, some
    decisions are made not in your best interest. And you try to
    protect and educate as best you can, but you are not going to
    have that in 100 percent of the cases that we are going to get
    rid of the bad actors, even with registration. The NFL has
    registration with financial advisors and players' agents, and
    there are still issues with people that are registered.
        So I think you can educate all you want and do what you
    can, and you hope that--you hope that they listen. Because even
    if you are 32 years old in the NFL making a lot of money, a lot
    of them, you know, some, they don't listen.
        Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you.
        Chairman, my time has expired. I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize Representative Mfume from the great State
    of Maryland for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MFUME. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
    the opportunity to be a part of this. I am glad we are dealing
    with it. And for some of us, we have been dealing with it for
    some time.
        But allow me, on a point of personal privilege, just to
    call the attention of the Chair and the Committee to the fact
    that we have been joined by Tom McMillen, who many of you will
    recall his great years at the University of Maryland, you will
    recall him as a Member of our 1972 U.S. Olympic team, and some
    of you will recall him as a Member of this body, having gotten
    elected in the 100th Congress.
        Tom, it is good to see you. Thank you for being back up on
    the Hill. Really good to have you.
        Mr. Chairman, I have been listening. I think there are two
    aspects that continue to come at me about what we are dealing
    with today. One is a police aspect of what has to be done. In
    other words, who is going to set the rules and enforce them.
        And then the other one is the information we heard from Ms.
    Salamone about, if I can use a better term, maybe prevention,
    the care of the athlete, what is going on and what is not going
    on, and why things seem to be as bad as they are in some
    respects.
        I spent 12 years on the Johns Hopkins Board of Trustees and
    then the last 30 on the Board of Regents at Morgan State
    University. And I can tell you from the public side and the
    private college side that colleges and universities really want
    guidance; they want information. And what they fear is
    litigation and liability, because there is so much that is not
    clear in many respects.
        Universities and colleges approach this in a diffuse
    manner, in a difficult manner, and definitely in a different
    kind of looking glass.
        So I know that there is some apprehension about Congress
    setting the law and setting the standard and enforcing it. But
    if somebody doesn't do it, it won't get done, and if it doesn't
    get done, things are going to happen.
        So I appreciate the discussions here that we have had about
    agent registration. I think we are all kind of in tune and on
    board with that. I would not refer to them as ``bad actors,''
    the ones that are bad. They are more like leeches that take
    advantage of young kids, take advantage of their families, take
    advantage of their uncertainties. And they do it in a number of
    different ways. It has been going on, as we all know, forever.
        We do need, and I think we are all in agreement on,
    standard contracts--standard, so that what is here today is the
    same thing that will be there tomorrow and how we operate on
    issue A is how we operate on issue A 10 years from now.
        We need a prohibition, obviously, against inducements,
    because those same leeches, for lack of a better term, find a
    way to roll in all sorts of things over the phone, in person,
    by third party, to kind of induce these kids to make a decision
    and to really do a hands-off afterwards except to say, ``They
    signed with us because they just like us.'' No, in many
    instances, they are being induced to sign, and they don't have
    any real defense of their own.
        And we need strong enforcement measures.
        So, if those things are the things that we can agree on,
    maybe that is what we ought to start looking at, going forward.
        And I think that there really do have to be two different
    approaches here. That is the police side.
        And while I am at it, let me also talk about these booster
    collectives, which operate outside of Title IX and find their
    own hocus-pocus to get things done and to get students signed
    in and locked in.
        Now, on the prevention side, I am glad, Ms. Salamone, that
    you brought up this whole issue about player health and well-
    being and independent oversight.
        Five years ago at the University of Maryland, a kid by the
    name of Jordan McNair died after a practice because of a heat-
    related illness that nobody cared about, and everybody told
    him, ``Get back out there. Get back out there. Oh, you are
    going to be okay.'' Well, he wasn't okay. He was taken off the
    field, hospitalized with heatstroke. They tried to give him an
    emergency liver transplant; it didn't work. Fifteen days later,
    he was dead.
        And, following an investigation, it was determined that
    there was a culture in the football program that led to this
    kind of tragedy.
        Those tragedies are happening everywhere. They don't get
    reported the same way. And those are something on the
    prevention side that I think we have to deal with.
        Now, I introduced, with the help of some of you in this
    room, the Jordan McNair Act just a couple of months ago here in
    the Congress that would put in place things that are really,
    really needed: requiring the use of external defibrillators on
    the field, requiring the use of cold-water-immersion equipment
    on the field.
        I just can't stress enough that, while name, image, and
    likeness are important, the health of the player also is
    extremely important. And we have a role, I think, Mr. Chairman
    and others, to find a way to protect that.
        So I would hope that we could keep both approaches in our
    mind as we go forward. Neither one is going to win all the
    votes that it needs, but this process of amending and
    maneuvering and managing and massaging these bills will
    hopefully get us to a point where we won't have to sit before
    this Committee and witnesses and others, still saying, what do
    we do, how do we do it, and when do we get it done?
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you for that.
        And I now Representative Bean from the great State of
    Florida.
        Mr. BEAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good morning
    to you.
        And good morning, Small Business Committee. It is a big
    deal to have everybody here.
        My first question is for Gino Torretta.
        Welcome. Gino, I can't really see you right now because the
    glare from your championship ring is just kind of blinding me
    up here.
        Mr. TORRETTA. It is the Heisman ring. I left the two
    championship rings at home.
        Mr. BEAN. It is just too much.
        And trust me, I know how hard it is to wear a championship
    ring. We won the Congressional Baseball Game under the
    leadership of Chair Williams. He presented us with our rings. I
    lasted 2 days; it was just too heavy, just too heavy.
        So I salute you for all that you have done.
        And I also, Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate you. This
    is the largest Committee attendance that we have had. And we
    have outdrawn, I think, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, who is
    testifying downstairs. And so the interest of college athletics
    is certainly great around the country.
        Question. The elephant in the room is not Roger Williams;
    it is the fact that there is also another big impact to college
    athletics in--the name, image, and likeness, that is a big
    deal, but also this transfer portal. What is the greatest
    impact right now, or is it them together.
        Gino Torretta?
        Mr. TORRETTA. Well, I think you have had the convergence of
    two major changes in college athletics, where you are allowed
    to transfer, which a kid didn't have the right--or, an athlete
    didn't have the right, if a coach left, to change schools or--
    you know, I came from northern California. Maybe I wouldn't
    have liked--maybe I didn't like Miami after one semester and
    would have gone home, but I couldn't transfer somewhere else
    without sitting out a year of my eligibility. So you have that.
    Now there is the freedom.
        And then, with the NIL, we have talked about, it is the
    inducements of: money is involved, and, ``Hey, Gino is a good
    player, and he is young. Maybe we can pay him or his people to
    transfer.''
        And I think the combination of that, yes, it is not good.
    Now, is the transfer portal good in and of itself? Sure. But
    add in the inducement piece; it is not good for any of us
    sitting up here.
        Mr. BEAN. 10-4.
        I was a State legislator too, and I remember, a few years
    ago, I got a call from then-head coach Dan Mullen of the
    University of Florida, and he said, if we don't pass a name,
    image, likeness bill in the State legislature, we are going to
    kill Florida schools, because everybody will go somewhere else.
        Is it a fair playing field among States? Are there more
    lucrative colleges in other States, or is it about equal? Do
    some States give you a better chance to make more money playing
    college ball?
        Mr. TORRETTA. There are differences amongst conferences.
    The SEC schools make a different amount of money than Big Ten
    schools, than the ACC, than Pac-12. That is why we are seeing
    conference realignment, and we have deemed the West Coast, of
    California, Oregon, and Washington, kind of irrelevant in
    college athletics. All those schools are moving to the Big Ten
    or the ACC or SEC.
        Mr. BEAN. Gene Smith, is it true, what he says? Does he
    preach the truth right now, Gino Torretta?
        Mr. SMITH. I don't know about preaching, but what he said
    was pretty good.
        You know, but I think the core issue there is in the
    transfer portal, those things coming together, with where we
    are with NIL. We have to remember, transferring is a good
    thing. Student-athletes deserve the same rights as other
    students.
        Now, with our institution, where student-athletes decide to
    transfer, we have to make sure we understand why. If they are
    transferring because we made a commitment that we didn't live
    up to, then we need to go look in the mirror. Don't point the
    finger at the student-athlete. So that is one.
        But the reality is, the SEC, the Big Ten, in particular,
    have done a great job over the years of creating a culture that
    everybody else wants to be a part of.
        Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
        Mr. SMITH. And that is reality.
        Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
        Here is a toss-up question for every panelist. I am going
    to ask you to give me a number, and that number is your
    confidence, on a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being absolute
    confidence that the NCAA can handle this without congressional
    action, that would be a 10; zero, zero confidence and you
    definitely need Congress to jump in.
        Jeremiah Donati, what say you for that number?
        Mr. DONATI. Somewhere between zero and 10.
        Mr. BEAN. Yeah.
        Mr. DONATI. No. I would say this--I would say this. The new
    president, Charlie Baker, is--we have a lot of faith in him,
    but he needs help, and he need this Congress's help. We are
    firmly behind him, but this is a--the level of complexity we
    have----
        Mr. BEAN. Does that mean 6? Five?
        Mr. DONATI. Four.
        Mr. BEAN. Gene Smith?
        Mr. SMITH. Four. Three to 4. Four.
        Mr. BEAN. Gino Torretta.
        Mr. TORRETTA. Hope is eternal.
        Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
        Maddie Salamone?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I think it depends what issue we are talking
    about, so I would take issue with the framing and plead the
    Fifth.
        Mr. BEAN. 10-4.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back--Coach, I should say. Coach, I
    yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you for that.
        And I now recognize Representative Scholten from the great
    State of Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. It is a great State, isn't it? With all due
    respect to the Ohioans here.
        Thank you all so much for coming and testifying today. This
    is such an important issue, as we see by the crowds gathered
    here.
        And, you know, I know this to be such an important issue. I
    am the daughter of a sports reporter. I was a student-athlete
    myself--never in a position for any of what we are talking
    about here today to be relevant. But the challenges of
    balancing the demands of school, of young adulthood, and the
    demands of the physical aspects of athleticism are so
    challenging and come together around this important issue.
        Ms. Salamone, my first question is for you. It was
    incredibly gripping to hear from your testimony how prevalent
    psychological abuse is for female athletes and the detrimental
    effects it can have on mental health. Continuing on some of my
    colleagues' questions about putting the health and safety of
    student-athletes front and center, I want to talk about the
    mental health aspects.
        Can you talk more about what systemic changes might need to
    be made for student-athletes to have the mental health support
    and resources that they need, both in general but particularly
    at this changing time? We know that social media plays a huge
    role in mental health components for young people today.
        And, also, more broadly, what enforcement mechanisms need
    to be in place so that this toxicity can be reported and
    tracked and monitored?
        Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I will start with the enforcement. I
    think, again, it is independent oversight.
        Schools--there are very good people that work at schools
    who very much care about the athletes. But when it comes to
    stepping up for an athlete, if it puts the school at risk of,
    you know, being exposed for some scandal, they have to put the
    school first. And especially depending on who is involved, that
    can be an issue.
        So independent oversight, as a starter.
        I think, in terms of addressing mental health, there are so
    many different components. You know, number one, there is
    tremendous pressure to be an athlete alone. You add on top of
    that social media in general, which came before NIL, and that
    already created a different world.
        And I think that there needs to be--you know, these are
    young, impressionable individuals that are learning who they
    are and learning how they exist in the world and trying to
    figure out what they are going to do with their lives. And all
    of that feels enormous at that age.
        And so I think they need--in addition to mental health
    resources that are independent and that are not reporting to
    coaches what is being talked about, they need people that
    actually understand what it is like to be an athlete at that
    level. They need people who they can talk to and have some kind
    of validation and perspective given to some of the issues to
    kind of counsel through on a one-on-one basis more.
        I think that there have been a lot of efforts put in around
    mental health, and athletes are talking about it more than
    ever. But I think it still has a little bit of a stigma, where
    you can identify it in other people but not so much see it in
    yourself.
        I think, when you have injured athletes, that needs to be a
    top priority. Injured athletes face a hurdle, in many respects,
    and can start to feel very isolated from their teams, whether
    because their coach kind of starts to push them out and deems
    them less important and tries to get them to leave, which
    happens, or if it is just they feel removed, they feel like
    they are trying to put on an act, and it takes a lot of effort
    to keep that brave face up and try to be a good and positive
    teammate while you are dealing with something like that.
        So it is so many pressures, that they need--they genuinely
    need people that they can talk to that get it.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much. That was very powerful.
        Mr. Donati, since 2021, when NIL became permissible, have
    you seen name, image, likeness compensation alleviate some of
    the broader stressors student-athletes have had to navigate,
    such as low graduation rates and poor mental health?
        Mr. DONATI. Have I seen NIL alleviate some of the burdens
    student-athletes carry with them?
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
        Mr. DONATI. I mentioned in my opening testimony that one of
    the things I think that we are not talking about is, a lot of
    our student-athletes, you know, come from underprivileged
    homes----
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Uh-huh.
        Mr. DONATI.--and, a lot of times, there is pressure on them
    to support those families once they get to school. So these
    resources now, in a lot of cases, are going directly home--to
    mom, to dad, to brother, sister, to extended family.
        So that, to me, has been a real win and something that I
    have seen. If we are talking about mental health, the pressure
    of that is so real for some of these young men and women, to be
    able to help them at home has been--I have seen that burden
    alleviated in real-time. So I think it has been a real win.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. All right.
        I now recognize Representative Stauber from the great State
    of Minnesota.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much.
        And to our witnesses, thanks for your testimony. It is from
    your experiences; it is very compelling.
        And so, I come from northern Minnesota, and we have great
    college athletics in our great State. And, of course, hockey is
    one of them. And I was fortunate to play hockey, win a national
    championship. And then, all these years later, I can say I
    fooled the Detroit Red Wings in deciding the end our contract.
    And I have two other brothers that played professionally, and
    my nephew is with the Chicago Blackhawks.
        I have to tell you, though, I haven't heard a lot about
    schooling and grades and education. Because, eventually, we are
    done. We are done.
        And so I would like to talk more with a focus on, what are
    you doing with the student-athletes that come in--sometimes
    when they come from underprivileged homes, what have you, and
    they are making really--through the NIL, making, you know, some
    good money, how do you balance that with their school education
    and their future? And they are not going to be there forever,
    you know?
        Mr. Torretta, I am sure you saw people waste a lot of
    money, right? And, all of a sudden, one day it is over. You
    put--in my case, you put the skates away, and we say, ``You are
    working that 9:00-to-5:00 now.''
        How do you deal with that, and how do you prepare that
    student, that student-athlete--because they are students first,
    athletes second. So how do you prepare that student-athlete?
        Mr. Donati, go ahead.
        Mr. DONATI. Well, you just identified the great challenge
    of being an athletics director. Because you do inherit young
    men and women who are at your university to grow, and some are
    all ears, and some aren't. And some find out later in life that
    they missed an opportunity, and that is why we have systems in
    place to bring them back for degree completions down the road.
        We only have the ability to be with them so many hours of
    the day, so many hours of the week. Those are NCAA rules. So we
    have to make the best use of those.
        I will give you one example, to answer your question, of
    how we educate them. We have what is referred to as ``Alston
    money'' that we were allowed to provide our student-athletes,
    up to $5,980 per year. And we have a condition on receiving
    that money that they go through this financial literacy
    education. So that is the requirement. There are no if's,
    and's, or but's. If you miss one of those sessions, you do not
    receive the check.
        So we do try to hold them accountable. And it is not a
    perfect science, because we are dealing with 18- to 22-year-
    olds, in some cases 23-year-olds. But it is the great challenge
    of being an athletics director, candidly.
        Mr. STAUBER. Uh-huh.
        Mr. Smith, can you give us your thoughts on what would
    happen if some of the proposals we have talked about became
    law?
        And before you answer that, I will just say that I am one
    that not necessarily would support the government being
    involved and forcing you on this. I would rather have the NCAA
    and the institutions and the professionals at this table make
    those decisions. But, if need be, you know, we in Congress
    could help out. But I just see that the less Washington gets
    involved, I think the better off the ultimate outcome can be,
    especially in this situation.
        So give me an example, if we put laws forward, what does
    that do?
        Mr. SMITH. Well, first of all, your premise--now, I am 67.
    I was an athletic director at the age of 29. And, trust me, I
    never wanted to come to the federal government to ask for help,
    okay? But we have reached a point where interest groups,
    pressure groups, lawyers, politicians, whoever, have made it
    very difficult for us to come up with a strategy to deal with
    the issues that we are dealing with today.
        And, frankly, as you heard in the ratings of our faith in
    the NCAA structure to be able to deal with it, we don't see
    that happening. So that is why we are here. It is that simple.
    We need the leadership help that is represented in this room.
        So, you know, I really believe that accepting one of the
    laws that has been talked about earlier, one of the bills that
    has the elements that we have already talked about, it is very
    important to try and get across to everyone so that we can get
    it passed. The things that we have talked about relative to
    agent management, all those type of things, we really need help
    with. And so I would say that the plan is around that.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you.
        Ms. Salamone, I really, really appreciate your comment
    about taking care of our athletes, both their mental health and
    when they are injured. And we do need to make that a priority.
    When an athlete gets injured, you can't just put them aside.
    They are part of the team. And the mental health part of it is
    really important for me too.
        So I am out of time, but thank you, witnesses, for your
    testimony, and appreciate your athleticism.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize Representative Thanedar from the great
    State of Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        And I want to thank all the witnesses to be here and for
    all of their testimony.
        You know, my kids are not professional athletes. They are
    like me, so they--but they love sports and a wrestler and
    football. So, for the first time, I was able to impress my
    children with my new job here, you know, with today's hearing.
    So I want to thank the Chairman for this hearing.
        You know, I grew up in a family that didn't have anything
    to do with business or entrepreneurship. When I got my
    education, I worked as a chemist. I wanted to start a business,
    and I had absolutely no concept of, you know, how to manage,
    whether it is branding, whether it is revenues, whether it is
    investment.
        And I am looking at these young people that have focused so
    much on developing their sports skills. They are young, and
    many of them come from families that are not into business. How
    do we teach these young people so they can look after
    themselves, make good, sound financial decisions, and have a
    strategic plan?
        Even, you know, when you start a business, the first thing
    you do is write a business plan that you go present it to a
    financial institution. How do you bring that entrepreneurship,
    that ability to, you know, have a plan, and making sure that
    they don't get exploited by vested interests, but they, you
    know, are able to make good decisions for themselves? How does
    NIL help?
        Anybody on the panel, Mr. Smith, anyone else, on this?
        Mr. SMITH. Well, I think all of us are into education. And
    the blessing that we have--and it includes the athletics--is
    that we are probably the only incubator left in higher
    education where we can actually have programs specifically for
    student-athletes to help them with that.
        Mr. THANEDAR. Uh-huh.
        Mr. SMITH. I would just give you one example. At our level,
    with the students that we recruit, many of them never worked in
    their lives. So, when we sit them down as sophomores and tell
    them it is a requirement that they write a resume, it starts
    their wheels turning----
        Mr. THANEDAR. Yeah.
        Mr. SMITH.--to get them thinking about, ``Uh-oh, what am I
    putting on here?'' And so then you begin the process to help
    them understand why it is important to take advantage of the
    internships that we have available to you throughout the rest
    of your career here, putting them in the work environment so
    that they can see what it means to be in the work environment.
        The lessons learned through athletic competition and
    practice are directly transferrable to the work environment.
    That is the blessing we have in athletics. So how do we help
    the student-athlete on their continuum, while they are with us,
    get to that? And it takes a lot of programming, it takes a
    culture, it takes an effort and a doggedness to make sure you
    work with those student-athletes.
        We have a thousand of them. And that is the highest
    priority that we have, is to make sure that they prepare
    themselves for life before they walk across that stage and get
    that diploma.
        So I could go on and on about that, because that is what I
    am passionate about.
        Mr. DONATI. And I would say, overnight, when the NIL laws
    were passed, we created 550 new entrepreneurs on campus. And so
    one of the things that we did at TCU, which I know are going on
    at other universities like The Ohio State University and other
    places, is that we took--we have a top business school in the
    country, and we have a top athletics program. We said, let's
    combine resources.
        And so we literally brought a piece of that business school
    into the athletics department, created an endowed
    professorship, and brought in Neeley faculty--Neeley School of
    Business--and got to work on these entrepreneurship skills. We
    thought, what an opportunity.
        So I am bragging a little bit about TCU for a moment, but I
    know this is going on at other schools across the country. And
    so this was--this is the good side of NIL. These are the little
    positives. Because this is bigger than any NIL payment. These
    are tools they can take with them forever.
        Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you so much. These young people need
    the help, and I really appreciate all of the work that you do.
    Thank you.
        Chair, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        And we still have some time left. We have some Members on
    their way back from other Committee hearings.
        And for those of us here, would you like to ask another
    round of questions?
        You want to talk about the University of Maryland?
        Mr. MFUME. Well, I would really like to get back to Ms.
    Salamone.
        I mean, your perspective on this I did not expect, coming
    into this hearing. I hadn't read the testimonies, but I figured
    we would talk about the regular things--the guardrails and what
    we needed to do and, you know, oversight.
        But I would like for you to talk some more about this whole
    aspect of the athlete being a human being and how we, in the
    process of developing good athletes, make sure we are
    developing good human beings.
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah. I mean, you talked a lot about Jordan
    McNair. And I think his father is someone who is doing
    tremendous work bringing that humanity to athletes and bringing
    a parental perspective that I think we lose a lot of times when
    it comes to college athletes, that these are young people that
    we need to care about, and there are many people who care about
    them. And they get treated like a sack of meat a lot of times,
    but they are human beings.
        And coaches can tend to lose sight of that when it comes to
    winning games, treating it like a job, and, you know,
    forgetting that even the best bosses in business care about
    their employees and treat them well and treat them with respect
    and care about them personally.
        And I think we need to bring more of that mindset into
    coaching, into administration, and getting to know the
    athletes, what they care about, what they--you know, not just
    what they can do on the field or on the court or wherever their
    performance is.
        And I think that would go a long way, is just bringing back
    that humanity, that these are human beings with families that
    work very hard but that, you know, can't do it all and
    sometimes buckle under the tremendous pressure of college
    athletics.
        Mr. MFUME. Thank you. And it is a lot of----
        Mr. TORRETTA. Can I add----
        Mr. MFUME.--pressure.
        Mr. TORRETTA. I would just like to add something----
        Mr. MFUME. Go right ahead.
        Mr. TORRETTA.--on, you know, the independent oversight,
    which I agree with. And I would say, the mental abuse happens
    in high school athletics to, you know, on up, and it is like,
    who do you call? Because if you go even to a high school
    administrator and you report something, it becomes self-
    preservation for that administrator, because that administrator
    is working for the institution, you know, whether it is a high
    school or a college, and they are going to try to not have this
    be a major issue.
        And that is where it is like, who do you call as a parent
    if you are in high school, or who do you call if you are a kid,
    that you know that they are going to have your best interest?
        Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
        Mr. TORRETTA. And I can go back to broadcasting a ball
    game. And it was Duke that was in the ball game, and they have
    one of the best brain institutes in the world--brain studies,
    you know, CT, you know. They had a player come across the
    field. He gets knocked out cold. He is back out there three
    plays later. The same play, gets knocked out again.
        Mr. MFUME. Yeah.
        Mr. TORRETTA. And I can remember thinking, I am like, man,
    if I was his parent, I would jump over the rail and wring the
    coach's neck, because who allowed that to happen?
        And that is what the NFL has tried to deal with, having the
    independent doctor on the sideline. Because, no matter where
    you are at, it becomes self-preservation. Who you are employed
    by, that is who, kind of, you are beholden to.
        Mr. MFUME. It does.
        And, I mean, we are familiar with the abuses--if I might,
    Mr. Chairman, for just a minute longer.
        I mean, we all saw what happened with Jerry Sandusky and
    how, because of that mountain of power, nobody wanted to check
    Person A, B, or C, and everybody was intimidated, until it all
    blew up. And then the question became, what did you know, when
    did you know it, and what did you do about it? And that is what
    universities and colleges are faced with.
        I would say, however--I must say that--and I think it is
    important for the record--that there are a lot of good coaches
    out there who also don't know where to turn. And it is like the
    policing. Nobody hates a bad cop more than a good cop. And
    nobody hates a bad coach more a good coach.
        So we have to find a way, dually, I think, to empower those
    good coaches and we have definitely got to figure out how to
    get this notion of intimidation out of the game. Because people
    are fearful; universities are fearful. Everybody is worried
    about, am I going to get sued? Am I going to lose my job? Will
    I be demoted? Will I be shifted somewhere else in the
    university?
        And the fact that it starts, really, at the high school
    level, as you said and talked about, is more challenging for
    us.
        Mr. TORRETTA. Or are you going to--you know, it comes to
    all of us individually. Do you have the courage to step up when
    you are in that?
        I mean, there was an instance, the Dolphins-Patriots game,
    there was a, you know, fight in the stands, and somebody lost
    their life this past weekend.
        Mr. MFUME. I saw that.
        Mr. TORRETTA. Do you have the courage, instead of filming
    it on camera----
        Mr. MFUME. Right.
        Mr. TORRETTA.--to actually stop what is going on?
        And I think that is--you know, that is just society, in a
    general sense, of stepping up--if you see something--``See
    something, say something,'' you know? We do that in the
    airport. It is, ``Do something.''
        Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh. Thank you.
        Mr. SMITH. And I agree wholeheartedly. And I think--and I
    applaud you. Thank you for bringing the focus to that with Ms.
    Salamone.
        I mean, this is about leadership. This is about culture.
    You know, we probably could have won the national championship
    last year if we had let Marvin Harrison continue to play. But,
    at the end of the day, he had a bad hit, so we took him out.
    But that was independent oversight. The coach had nothing to do
    with that.
        Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
        Mr. SMITH. And so what she is talking about is 100 percent
    right. Structurally, you need to put the people in place who
    are the experts to make those type of decisions. My coaches are
    experts on the X's and O's; they are not a doctor.
        Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
        Mr. SMITH. And I don't know if many of you saw. Recently,
    we just had a session on CNN with one of our former athletes,
    who walked into our coach's office and said he wanted to kill
    himself. And, fortunately, we have empowered our coach to make
    sure that they are very sensitive and humanistic in those
    situations and listens and then determines who is the expert to
    help that individual.
        And that is the coach you have to create, to her point. You
    have to make sure that the individuals in your organization
    understand their talents and skills and be empowered to give
    those talents--to give those things that they have talents and
    skills or no authority over, give it to the people who do.
        Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
        Mr. SMITH. And that does not exist. And not just athletics,
    but many organizations.
        So I agree wholeheartedly, and thank you for bringing the
    attention back to that. Because, at the end of the day, that is
    what it is all about, developing people.
        Mr. MFUME. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the extra time.
    I appreciate it.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        And we're winding down our time now. I am going to ask what
    will probably be the final question.
        We have heard some questions today about collectives that
    are putting them in a negative light. I think this is missing
    some important context to the role they play. Now, collectives
    also help get small businesses in contact with some of the
    athletes to create these partnerships and brand deals.
        So you three might just touch on that real quick. Would one
    of you, or all of you, please, talk about these collectives,
    how they came about, and how they help your teams compete, and
    if they do?
        Mr. DONATI. Well, collectives are here because we have
    allowed them to be here.
        And I think there are a number of them that do it the right
    way. I am proud to say, I think that the Flying T Club, which
    is the collective that supports TCU Athletics, does it the
    right way. We work with them, we have a lot of communication
    with them to understand what they are trying to accomplish and
    how they are trying to support our student-athletes. But they
    know this is not a sham and that they have got to do their
    responsibilities to make sure the real NIL activities are
    happening.
        So they have really gone heavy with community service. We
    have all of our student-athletes that are part of this
    collective engaged in community service. And so I am really
    proud of that, because you see young people in our community
    that look up to our student-athletes. I was one of those once.
    Our student-athletes are able to have a real impact in their
    lives.
        Not every collective works that way. And it goes back to
    having some uniformity, some oversight over them. But I think,
    by and large, collectives, you know, have been a good thing.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Do you want to respond to that?
        Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I agree with Jeremiah. And I thank you,
    Chairman Williams, for bringing that back to that attention.
    Because you are right; we have talked about the negative side
    of it, but there are a lot of collectives across this country
    that are doing really good for young people. And many of them
    for Olympic sport athletes, not just football and basketball.
    We talked earlier before Title IX. There are many collectives
    that are doing well in that space.
        So, yes, I agree with Jeremiah that there are so many of
    them that are doing well.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Gino?
        Mr. TORRETTA. I would just think that the contributors to
    the collectives, they want to support their institutions. You
    know, I think that maybe sometimes the small business maybe
    gets a negative connotation. Because if you have a small
    business, you reach out to--I would probably call Gene and say,
    ``Hey, I have a small business in Columbus. Is there a student-
    athlete? I would like to support.''
        And I think what collectives were formed for, if I didn't
    have a small business but I wanted to support the players, I
    could donate money to that collective, and then they could
    disburse it and support the athletics.
        So I think there are good things, but without policing of
    anything, there obviously are going to be bad issues--bad
    things.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Yeah.
        Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah, I would echo the sentiment. I think
    that there are collectives that are doing good work. Some are
    connecting athletes with charitable organizations.
        I spoke to one person who told a story about--you know, I
    think one of the issues is, athletes go to whoever can help
    them with certain issues, and that is not always the school.
    And so this collective was able to actually help an athlete by
    connecting them with a social worker who could help them with a
    familial issue that they were dealing with. And it was causing
    them difficulty, where they were asking for money, when what
    they really needed was help in this other area that they were
    able to provide because they listened.
        So there are good people in this space doing good work. But
    those are the types of issues--again, to go back to why it is
    important to have players in the room, they will explain that
    to you, that it is not just about money. It is about, how can
    you help with the real-life things that happen outside of
    sports?
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you.
        And I just want to say that this has been a great hearing.
    It is good to see so many of you in the audience, that weren't
    witnesses today, that care about this.
        I think it also shows that in Washington we can get some
    bipartisan stuff done. Not everything is driven by anger. But
    also the importance of this, college athletics, what it is to
    our country.
        So I want to thank all of you for being here today.
        Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
    submit additional materials and written questions for the
    witnesses to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the
    witnesses.
        I will ask the witnesses to please respond promptly when
    that happens.
        If there is no further business, without objection, the
    committee is now adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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