[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
HEARING ON COMPLIANCE WITH
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON RESPONSIVENESS AND
ACCOUNTABILITY TO OVERSIGHT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
TUESDAY, JULY 18, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-36
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53-106 WASHINGTON : 2023
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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair
DARRELL ISSA, California JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking
KEN BUCK, Colorado Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas ERIC SWALWELL, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina TED LIEU, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin J. LUIS CORREA, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
BEN CLINE, Virginia JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON RESPONSIVENESS AND ACCOUNTABILITY
TO OVERSIGHT
BEN CLINE, Virginia, Chair
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey ERIC SWALWELL, California, Ranking
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas Member
LAUREL LEE, Florida GLENN IVEY, Maryland
CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
C O N T E N T S
----------
Tuesday, July 18, 2023
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Ben Cline, Chair of the Subcommittee on
Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight from the State
of Virginia.................................................... 1
The Honorable Eric Swalwell, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee
on Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight from the
State of California............................................ 3
WITNESSES
The Hon. Naz Durakoglu, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of
Legislative Affairs, U.S. Department of State
Oral Testimony................................................. 4
Prepared Testimony............................................. 7
The Hon. Melanie Egorin, Assistant Secretary for Legislation,
Bureau of Legislative Affairs, Department of Health and Human
Services
Oral Testimony................................................. 9
Prepared Testimony............................................. 11
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on
Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight are listed below 25
An article entitled, ``Trump's false or misleading claims total
30,573 over 4 years,'' Jan. 23, 2021, The Washington Post,
submitted by the Honorable Glenn Ivey, a Member of the
Subcommittee on Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight
from the State of Maryland, for the record
A letter to the Honorable Christopher A. Wray, Jul. 17, 2023,
from the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the
Judiciary from the State of Ohio, submitted by the Honorable
Ben Cline, Chair of the Subcommittee on Responsiveness and
Accountability to Oversight from the State of Virginia, for the
record
HEARING ON COMPLIANCE WITH
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT
----------
Tuesday, July 18, 2023
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in
Room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Ben Cline
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Cline, Van Drew, Moran,
Lee, Swalwell, and Ivey.
Mr. Cline. The Subcommittee will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
recess at any time. If you would all rise so that we can say
the Pledge of Allegiance.
All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
all.
Mr. Cline. Thank you. All right. Welcome, everyone, to
today's Hearing on Compliance with Committee Oversight. I will
now recognize myself for an opening statement.
This is the fourth hearing of the Subcommittee on
Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight. Labeling
Content Dangerous Misinformation, Disinformation, or
Malinformation has been the government's main method of
suppressing and silencing the airing of perspectives that are
in line with the governments.
The Committee's Select Subcommittee on Weaponization of the
Federal Government has been working to uncover the full extent
of collusion with or coercion by the Biden Administration, its
agencies, and social media companies. As part of this
investigation the Committee has sent numerous requests to
agencies and social media companies, reiterated requests
numerous times culminating in subpoenas, or noncompliant
agencies and companies including the State Department's Global
Engagement Center and the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention.
Today the Subcommittee seeks to obtain answers directly
from representatives of the Department of Health and Human
Services and the Department of State. We look forward to
engaging with our witnesses today to discuss the productions we
have received to date and the status of our other outstanding
requests.
For example, the CDC was viewed as the lead authority on
matters related to the COVID-19 pandemic and played a
significant role in adjudicating the factuality of COVID-19
claims on social media. As a Federal Court just explained in
Missouri v. Biden, the quote,
CDC became the determiner of truth for social media platforms,
deciding whether COVID-19 statements made on social media were
true or false. And the CDC was aware it had become the
determiner of truth for social media platforms. If the CDC said
a statement on social media was false, it was suppressed in
spite of alternative views.
Accordingly, it is important that the Committee have the
opportunity to determine how the CDC and actors with which the
agency was communicated labeled speech MDM, or malinformation,
to effectuate its takedown from platforms and the nature of the
relationship between CDC and social media companies.
On March 22, 2023, the Committee wrote to Secretary
Becerra, Surgeon General Murthy, the National Institutes of
Health, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious
Diseases, and the Food and Drug Administration requesting
documents and information relating to how and to what extent
the HHS and is components coerced and colluded with companies
and other intermediaries to censor speech. These requests have
largely gone unanswered.
On April 28, 2023, Chair Jordan issued subpoenas to CDC
Director Walensky and GEC Special Envoy Rubin regarding
coercion by the Federal Government to have companies and groups
engage in content moderation. To date the responses to these
subpoenas have been deficient and overdue. While the CDC has
produced some documents to the Committee and made other
documents available for review, questions remain. For example,
the CDC still needs to produce certain documents to the
Committee pursuant to that subpoena such as internal
communications on the matter.
On April 18, 2023, the Committee wrote to Secretary Blinken
requesting documents and information relating to how and to
what extent the State Department and its components coerced and
colluded with companies and other intermediaries to censor
speech.
On April 28, 2023, Chair Jordan issued a subpoena to GEC
Special Envoy Rubin to investigate the nature and extent of the
GEC's interactions with companies and groups over content
moderation. GEC's response to date, a mere 1,195 pages that is
extremely limited in scope, has been wholly incomplete and
inadequate. This is despite State Department's representatives
proffering that production would be in the tens of thousands of
pages at least as virtually everything GEC does is related to
content moderation on social media.
These hearings play a critical role in assisting the
Judiciary Committee in its oversight obligations which in turn
allows the Committee to examine potential legislative changes
within our jurisdiction. The courts have recognized that
Congress' power to conduct oversight is an indispensable
component of our authority to legislate. Without the
information that the Committee needs from the Administration we
cannot do our jobs.
We look forward today to engaging with the witnesses that
have appeared to discuss the productions we have received to
date and to discuss the status of our other outstanding
requests. Thank you.
I now recognize the Ranking Member Mr. Swalwell for his
opening statement.
Mr. Swalwell. It never gets old that Chair Jordan is
complaining about subpoena compliance. We are approaching 500
days since Chair Jordan has failed to comply with a lawfully
issued subpoena for the greatest crime ever committed in
America, a crime where more people have been arrested, more
people have been prosecuted. His country has asked him to
assist in the investigation and he has refused to comply, yet
he is all too eager to bring to this Committee people who are
working hard for the government, working hard for taxpayers, to
carry out the mission of Health and Human Services, to carry
out the mission of the State Department.
He is too good to honor a subpoena, but he has complaints,
real complaints about what these hardworking government
officials are doing. Again, it is never going to get old. It is
never going to be taken seriously. Thankfully these witnesses
are willing to do something that Chair Jordan is not willing to
do, which is actually shows and answer questions.
As we waste the time of the State Department we have
scrambled fighter jets to address threats from Iran in the
Gulf. We are protecting and defending Taiwan against a
potential showdown with China. We are helping Ukraine and
leading the way on the front on the Western side as Russia
invades their country. There is a lot going on in the world,
but it seems that Jim Jordan thinks the most important thing we
can do is to stop the State Department from fighting
disinformation.
By the way, tomorrow the President of Israel will come and
speak to Congress and I promise you he will probably mention
the rise of anti-Semitism across the globe; and of course we
know all too well here in America, but he won't have to look
very far because Chair Jordan the very next day is using his
power as Chair to bring one of the most anti-Semitic witnesses
you could possibly bring into Congress to testify before Chair
Jordan's Weaponization Committee.
So, that is the priorities of Chair Jordan these days.
It was made all too clear last when we had FBI Director
Chris Wray testify to Congress just what this is all about.
Chair Jordan complained that in the 2020 election he believed
that the FBI prevented the public from seeing more of Hunter
Biden's laptop, if you can believe that, the Republicans would
have won the 2020 election if more Americans could have seen a
private citizen's nonconsensual nudes. That was Chair Jordan's
complaint.
So, we now see that the MAGA party is not a party of ideas.
It is not a party of principles. It is a party of violating an
individual's privacy to own the libs and try and win an
election. Today we are going to learn that not only are they a
party of nonconsensual nudes; they want to be a party of
disinformation and they want to stop the State Department from
attacking foreign disinformation that could affect global
stability and of course how Americans view their information as
they make decisions on elections.
We have some slides I would like to show, because this is
what Chair Jordan and MAGA Republicans would like to stay in
the ether in the universe. This has been identified as clear
disin-
formation attacking Speaker Pelosi. Again the Tennessee GOP,
which we know is a Russian site, a piece of social media
posting propping up Donald Trump. So, this is what they would
prefer. They would prefer an election that was decided because
of disinformation.
This would be like the 2022 Cincinnati Reds who lost 100
games last season--Cincinnati Reds lost 100 games. So, it would
be like if the Cincinnati Reds went to Major League Baseball
and said, commissioner, in the upcoming season we would like
corked bats, pine tar for the pitchers, and steroids to be
allowed for our clean-up hitters. We can't win with ideas, so
we need to cheat. That is what this hearing is about, is that
MAGA Republicans cannot win with ideas and so they want to
flood the zone this upcoming election with disinformation and a
private citizen's nonconsensual nudes.
That is just weird. I think it is also wrong. We are not
going to be silent about it and we are always going to remind
the public that this Committee has no credibility because its
Chair himself refuses to follow a lawful subpoena. I yield
back.
Mr. Cline. I am not going to take time to respond to that.
I have already given my opening remarks, but I will display the
Chair's response to the subpoena for those interested.
We will now introduce today's witnesses. The Honorable Naz
Durakoglu is the Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of
Legislative Affairs. She was confirmed by the Senate on June
16, 2002.
The Honorable Melanie Egorin is the Assistant Secretary for
Legislation at the Department of Health and Human Services. She
was confirmed by the Senate on September 30, 2021.
We welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing
today. We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise
and raise your right hand?
Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best
of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in
the affirmative.
Thank you. Please be seated.
Please know that your written testimony will be entered
into the record in its entirety. Accordingly we ask that you
summarize your testimony in five minutes.
Ms. Durakoglu--did I get that right--you may begin.
STATEMENT OF NAZ DURAKOGLU
Ms. Durakoglu. Thank you. Good morning. Chair Cline,
Ranking Member Swalwell, distinguished Members of the
Subcommittee, it is a pleasure to be here today to discuss the
Department of State's commitment to being responsive to
Congressional Oversight. I also want to take a moment to
welcome our interns in the Legislative Affairs Bureau who are
here today.
With more than a decade of experience as a staffer in both
the House and the Senate I have deep appreciation for Congress'
role in conducting oversight of Federal agencies. My bureau,
the State Department's Bureau of Legislative Affairs, also
known as H, is the Department's conduit to Capitol Hill and
leads on all Congressional engagement.
The H is your primary resource for your State Department
questions including constituent passport, visa, and overseas
emergency inquiries, Congressional delegation travel, and
technical assistance on foreign affairs legislation.
In 2022, the Department conducted a record-breaking 3,431
Congressional engagements. In 2021 and 2022 the H facilitated
2,710 responses to Congressional letters, transmitted 982
Congressionally mandated reports, supported 475 CODELs and
STAFFDELs, and provided technical assistance on more than 1,000
pieces of legislation. So far in the 118th Congress, we are set
to beat this record. The H has supported 57 hearings, 1,611
briefings and meetings, responded to 645 letters from Members
of Congress, produced 325 reports to Congress, and facilitated
403 CODELs and STAFFDELs.
We're here to ensure you and your staffs have the
information you need to serve your constituents and we pride
ourselves on being open and accessible to our colleagues on the
Hill.
This approach extends to Congressional oversight. We are
just over halfway through 2023 and the Department has 28 open
and wide-ranging investigations from six separate House
Committees. Across all House inquiries the Department has
provided more than 16,000 pages in documents and regularly
conducts meetings and briefings to help facilitate
Congressional oversight. As Secretary Blinken said during his
confirmation hearing before the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee, no foreign policy can be sustained without the
informed consent of the American people. For this reason the
secretary and the Department's leadership view Congress as a
true partner and we are committed to working with you in good
faith on your oversight priorities.
In response to this Committee's inquiry into the
Department's Global Engagement Center, or GEC, we produced
nearly 1,200 pages in documents and offered to brief Committee
staff on the GEC's work. We in fact welcome the opportunity to
brief all Members on the GEC's important work to identify and
expose foreign information manipulation operations and
strategies overseas. The Department remains committed to
engaging in the constitutionally mandated accommodations
process with this Committee and we will continue to review and
produce additional responsive material on a rolling basis.
As we respond to Congressional oversight requests the H and
the dedicated public servants throughout the State Department
must also continue daily work to address complex diplomatic and
national security priorities including Russia's war of
aggression Ukraine, global competition with the People's
Republic of China, a growing international food security
crisis, and root causes of migration in the Western Hemisphere.
Recognizing the balance the Department must strike in managing
these challenging issues while responding to Congressional
oversight requests we work to maintain productive relationships
across parties, Committees, and both Chambers of Congress. As
such, in addition to producing records responsive to your
request we are in regular communication with your staff on
these and other matters.
Once again, I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to
appear before you today and I look forward to answering your
questions. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of the Hon. Durakoglu follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Cline. Thank you, Ms. Durakoglu.
Ms. Egorin, you may begin.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. MELANIE EGORIN
Ms. Egorin. Good morning, Chair Cline, Ranking Member
Swalwell, Members of the Committee. I appreciate the
opportunity to testify on behalf of the Department of Health
and Human Services.
I am Melanie Anne Egorin, the Assistant Secretary for
Legislation at the Department of Health and Human Services.
Prior to coming to the HHS, I spent more than 15 years working
in Congress and at the Government Accountability Office,
including as serving on the professional staff of the House
Committee on Ways and Means for almost a decade. I have a deep
appreciation for the important work of Congress and the
critical role that oversight plays in the effective functioning
of our government. I believe it is vital that Congress ask
questions about current policies and programs to improve their
integrity, our healthcare system, and the overall health of the
Nation.
The HHS' mission is to enhance the health and well-being of
all Americans. We accomplish this mission every day by
providing for effective health and human services, by fostering
sound and sustained advances in the sciences underlying
medicine, public health, and social services.
Our 12 operating divisions administer a wide variety of
health and human services on behalf of the American people and
the world. The HHS provides access to coverage for more than
100 million people through Medicare, Medicaid, the Children's
Health Insurance Program, and the Health Insurance Marketplace.
We also provide vital services through Indian Health Service,
Community Health Centers, and the U.S. Public Health Service.
We protect Americans from health safety and threats, both
foreign and domestic, and we oversee the safety, effectiveness
and quality of foods, drugs, vaccines and medical devices. As
you can see the HHS programs touch the lives of all Americans.
As part of this critical mission the HHS regularly
interacts with Congress and responds to Congressional oversight
requests. The HHS recognizes and appreciates the importance of
Congressional oversight and we are committed to continuing to
work with Congress in good faith. To that end my office serves
as the primary link between the Department and Congress, which
includes facilitating responses to Congressional oversight.
Given the breadth of the programs we administer the HHS
receives inquiries from virtually every Member of Congress and
regularly receives a variety of oversight requests from
multiple Committees in both the House and Senate.
Since the 118th Congress began, the Department has sent
nearly 100 letters responding specifically to oversight
inquiries, produced more than 11,000 pages of documents in
response to oversight requests, and responded to numerous other
Congressional requests for information. Department officials
have testified at a multitude of oversight hearings, provided
briefings in connection with a wide range of oversight
inquiries. We are also actively responding to 180 ongoing
engagements by GAO, 63 of which were initiated just this year.
In responding to the substantial volume of Congressional
oversight requests this Congress, we engage in an
accommodations process seeking to balance Congress' interests
consistent with Executive Branch interest while working within
and being mindful of our resource constraints. We often receive
broad and complex requests that require appropriate time and
attention to ensure that we are providing accurate information
and which may involve many components of the Department. In all
cases we are working hard to respond to Congress' oversight
requests.
As you know, we have been actively engaging with the
Judiciary Committee regarding its multiple oversight requests
and to date have provided more than 2,000 pages of documents
including a production just last week. We have also arranged to
have an additional 1,200 pages of sensitive records be reviewed
in camera, sent multiple letters and responses to the
Committee's inquiries, and participated in a transcribed
interview.
As I believe my testimony today reflects, the HHS has
demonstrated a record of working diligently to address the
broad range of oversight requests from Congress including this
committee. The HHS is committed to continuing to engage with
the Committee in good faith and I look forward to answering
your questions.
[The prepared statement of the Hon. Egorin follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Cline. Thank you very much.
We will now proceed with questions under the five-minute
rule. I want to begin with the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Moran.
Mr. Moran. Assistant Secretary Durakoglu, I would like to
direct my questions to you, if I could. I want to talk to you
specifically about the March 22, 2023, request and subsequent
April 28, 2023, subpoena which was sent to the State Department
and ask you some questions about that in particular.
What was your role in gathering the responsive documents
that we are here to talk about here today?
Ms. Durakoglu. So I'm part of a team across the State
Department. We have 15 full-time employees devoted to
oversight. The Legislative Affairs Bureau has a role in that,
so I can tell you that I actually did personally look through
the four productions we gave you guys on this Committee.
Mr. Moran. Great. Did you also look behind the redactions
to the information that had been redacted?
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moran. All right. So you are familiar with all the
documents and the redaction and the substance behind the
redactions?
Ms. Durakoglu. For the most part, yes.
Mr. Moran. Are you aware that the deadline for responding
to that April 28 subpoena was May 22, 2023?
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes, that was in the letter.
Mr. Moran. Is there a reason why the State Department did
not make its first production until June 23rd?
Ms. Durakoglu. We wanted to be as responsive as possible
and collect as many documents as possible.
Mr. Moran. Prior to the May 22, 2023, deadline did the
State Department in response to that April 28, 2023, subpoena--
did it assert any privileges or assert any objections in
writing to the subpoena?
Ms. Durakoglu. Not that I'm aware of, but if there are
confidentiality issues, we're happy to work with your staff on
that.
Mr. Moran. Do you agree that the law requires that any
objections or privileges be asserted prior to the date that the
documents are determined to be--the deadline for documentation?
Ms. Durakoglu. I would definitely refer to my legal
advisor's office on that question.
Mr. Moran. During a call on June 8, 2023, the State
Department representatives asserted that production would be in
the tens of thousands of pages. We have about 1,200 pages. Do
you know when those other several thousands of pages will be
produced?
Ms. Durakoglu. I don't have the exact dates, but I know
they're in production and we are producing on a rolling basis.
Mr. Moran. Is there a point person among the 15 that you
mentioned that is in charge of the supplementation?
Ms. Durakoglu. There are a few individuals, and I know your
staff is in touch with them.
Mr. Moran. How far in the process are they on the
supplementation and could we expect it say by August 1st?
Ms. Durakoglu. I'm not sure on an exact date, but we can
get you that information.
Mr. Moran. Does the Global Engagement Center have an
internal clock or deadline that it would like to meet to be
done with the total production?
Ms. Durakoglu. I don't believe the Global Engagement Center
sets any deadlines, but I will say we do take subject matter
experts who are full time on the Global Engagement Center off
their daily duties to be able to help produce these documents.
Mr. Moran. The subpoena compels the production of certain
documents and communications internal to the GEC or between the
GEC and the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government and its
agencies including the FBI, as you know. I understand that the
State Department has not produced all the documents responsive
to these categories and specifically--I know asked generally
just a second about when supplementation would occur, but on
this specific instance do you know when supplementation of
those documents would occurs?
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, are you asking about FBI records or GEC
records?
Mr. Moran. GEC records, but those communications with the
Executive Branch including communications with the FBI which
the GEC would have.
Ms. Durakoglu. So, we search our entire system, so if it's
within our system we are searching through all of that.
Mr. Moran. Have you already run an internal computerized
search for keywords internally for documents that would be
responsive to the request?
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes.
Mr. Moran. Do you know what keywords were used?
Ms. Durakoglu. No, sir, I don't.
Mr. Moran. Are there any internal memos that would talk
about what keywords to use?
Ms. Durakoglu. I'm not aware, sir, but I will say that to
prioritize our search we meet with your staff, and so that
actually informs the search.
Mr. Moran. On the redactions themselves, to work with the
Committee staff to determine which redactions are appropriate,
which ones are not, and where consensus can be made, is there a
time in the next week when somebody from your office or you
could be available to meet with them to actually go through and
look at the redacted information in camera and determine
whether or not that is appropriate or not?
Ms. Durakoglu. We're happy to send my staff as well as the
legal advisor's staff to be able to have that conversation,
yes.
Mr. Moran. You guys could do that in the next week, you
think?
Ms. Durakoglu. I believe we could do it in the next week,
yes.
Mr. Moran. All right. Anybody else involved in determining
which information gets produced other than the 15 that you are
talking about?
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes, we do pull full-time subject matter
experts off their duties to be able to actually sort through
the information. So, these are foreign policy experts and those
who are engaging in regular day-to-day department activities.
Mr. Moran. If there was one person among all in the group
that you would say the Committee needs to communicate with on
this issue, in particular, for supplementation and for the
redaction issues, who would that be?
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, I wouldn't say there's one person
because this is a collaborative effort truly in the Department.
So, there isn't one person, but if folks want to get in touch
with me or the team they're already in touch with, we can
actually arrange that conversation.
Mr. Moran. All right. Thank you, Assistant Secretary Durak-
oglu.
Ms. Durakoglu. Thank you.
Mr. Moran. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it.
I would yield back.
Mr. Cline. I thank the gentleman.
The gentleman from California is recognized for five
minutes.
Mr. Swalwell. The Judiciary Committee has oversight
jurisdiction over a single agency at Health and Human Services,
the Office of Refugee Resettlement, and the purpose of this
agency is to provide immigrants with humanitarian resources
when they enter our border. Nowhere is this more important than
with children, especially those unaccompanied by a parent or a
guardian.
Assistant Secretary Egorin, isn't it truth that Chair
Jordan demanded access to files about unaccompanied minors as
part of his request?
Ms. Egorin. Thank you for the question, Congressman. We do
have requests regarding the Office of Refugee Resettlement.
Mr. Swalwell. Including unaccompanied minors?
Ms. Egorin. Including document requests for--related to the
Office of Refugee Resettlement, yes.
Mr. Swalwell. Due to legitimate privacy concerns because we
are talking about children, you offered to provide Chair Jordan
with a in camera review, is that right?
Ms. Egorin. That is correct. We provided 1,200 pages of
information for in camera review which the staff were able to
review.
Mr. Swalwell. In camera means that it is not public; they
have access to the documents, is that right?
Ms. Egorin. That is correct.
Mr. Swalwell. You even asked them because of the nature of
what they were looking at and the privacy of minors to not take
any pictures or to publish anything of what they were looking
at, is that right?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, it is common practice that because
of the sensitive nature of these documents and the in camera
review process that pictures are not taken and that they're
handled in a highly sensitive manner, yes.
Mr. Swalwell. Were pictures taken during that in camera
review by Chair Jordan's staff?
Ms. Egorin. It is my understanding that pictures were
taken, and that is an unfortunate outcome.
Mr. Swalwell. It is worse than an unfortunate outcome. It
is violating the privacy of minors. Assistant Secretary, were
those--were parts of that--of those documents that you showed
Chair Jordan's staff published?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, it is my understanding that parts
of those documents were in the report produced by the majority.
Mr. Swalwell. Again this goes to a theme that we are seeing
here. We talked about this last week with Hunter Biden's
laptop. You violate an individual's privacy, you take
nonconsensual pictures from that laptop, you use it to
weaponize a case against your political opponent. Here we are
talking about minors. You are asked not to take pictures of
information regarding minors. You take the pictures and you put
them out to the public.
Again, that is weird. I don't know why you would do that.
It is also just creepy and it is wrong. Kids have their privacy
violated to make a political point.
Assistant Secretary Durakoglu, could you talk to me about
what the Global Engagement Center is and why it is so important
that the United States participates in it?
Ms. Durakoglu. Of course. Thank you, Congressman, for the
question. The Global Engagement Center works to recognize,
understand, and expose foreign propaganda against the United
States and its allies. Most of this propaganda emanates from
Beijing, Tehran, as well as Moscow. As well as non-State
actors, I should add.
Mr. Swalwell. Does your work include providing vital
information to intelligence communities to ensure we have rapid
responses to conflicts like the war in Ukraine?
Ms. Durakoglu. To be clear I actually don't work for the
Global Engagement Center, but the center actually does have an
interagency role and does work with the intelligence community,
yes.
Mr. Swalwell. Just based on your understanding of what the
Global Engagement Center does and the State Department's role,
what would happen if this program was discontinued?
Ms. Durakoglu. If the program was discontinued; and I
should say it needs to be reauthorized before the end of 2024,
we would not have this interagency arm that actually looks,
collects, analyzes, and exposes disinformation. We would be--I
guess we would be really not in a good position if that were to
happen.
Mr. Swalwell. Just based on your general review of foreign
disinformation that attacks political parties in America, do
you see a distinction between one party benefiting over
another, or is it the case that both parties in America and
many of the entities that we value in America are all
susceptible and vulnerable to disinfor-
mation?
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, again I'm not a subject matter expert
on this issue, but I will say just from my own understanding
these foreign propaganda arms do not discriminate.
Mr. Swalwell. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Cline. I thank the gentleman.
The Committee now recognizes the gentlelady from Florida,
Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. Good morning and welcome, Ms. Egorin. Thank you
for being here with us today.
On June 2, 2023, the HHS ORR held a briefing regarding an
internal audit it conducted following The New York Times
investigation revealing allegations about labor trafficking and
unaccompanied alien children, and that is where I would like to
focus my questions here today.
During the briefing the Committee asked whether all the HHS
ORR's internal processes were followed in the case of the
unaccompanied alien child who ultimately murdered Kayla
Hamilton or was charged with murder in Kayla Hamilton.
Additionally, the Committee asked to review the audit in that
case.
We are interested in the highest number of unaccompanied
alien children that have been released to a single sponsor
during the year 2023 and sent a message reiterating these
requests for information on June 2, 2023. To date we have not
received a response. Can you tell us when the Committee can
expect to receive a response to this outstanding request?
Ms. Durakoglu. Congressman, thank you for acknowledging the
accommodation and the briefing that was provided to your team.
We are working in good faith to be responsive, but I do not
have a date certain for you right now.
Ms. Lee. OK. On June 8, 2023, this Committee conducted a
transcribed interview of the HHS ORR Director Robin Dunn
Marcos. Dunn Marcos was unable to provide information or answer
a series of the questions that were asked during that
transcribed interview. About 30 questions approximately she was
not able to answer.
For example, she couldn't answer questions about whether
the office she leads has a policy to refer known gang members
to the DOJ. She also wasn't sure during that interview whether
during her tenure the HHS had ever transferred an alien child
to a home where a registered sex offender lives, among other
questions. So, we also were interested in how many
unaccompanied alien children we lost track of during this
administration.
So, during the interview she represented that the HHS would
get back to us and provide us with answers following the
interview, for those questions that they weren't able to answer
at the time, that those answers would be provided to us
subsequent to the interview. We are now 6 weeks later and the
Committee does not have any update, or any supplemental answers
and I am interested in whether you can tell us on what timeline
we could expect to have that additional information.
Ms. Durakoglu. Congresswoman, I am at this moment unaware
of where we are in terms of a timeline. I'm happy to have my
staff work with your staff and provide an update.
Ms. Lee. Are you the person who could best communicate with
us about that? In other words, if we want to try to establish a
timeline or get a sense of when we could expect these answers,
are the right representative to be coordinating with on that
subject?
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes, Congressman. I am the Assistant
Secretary for Legislation. As I said in my testimony, it is my
job to facilitate communications between Congress and the
Department. I am happy to continue conversations and work in
good faith to get you the answers.
Ms. Lee. On March 2, 2023, the Committee requested a
general briefing on the unaccompanied children placement
process and a demonstration of the UAC portal. It has been over
four months and we have not received yet the briefing on that
unaccompanied children placement process or a demonstration of
the portal. Can you tell us on what timeline could we schedule
that briefing? When could we expect to actually have that
occur?
Ms. Durakoglu. Congresswoman, I will--when I go back to the
office work, have my staff reach out to your office and start
working through a process on that issue.
Ms. Lee. On March 31, 2023, the Committee requested that
the Department provide four of the annual reports on the
repatriation of unaccompanied alien children, statutorily
required to be produced in this case under 8 U.S.C.
1232(a)(5)(c). Despite this report still being required to be
produced we have only got two of the four. Do you have a
timeline on when we could expect the remainder of those
reports?
Ms. Durakoglu. Congresswoman, I would like to take that
back and understand what two have been provided and the process
for providing the last two.
Ms. Lee. All right. Mr. Chair, with that I yield back.
Mr. Cline. I thank the gentlelady.
The gentleman from Maryland is recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Ivey. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I kind of want to start off
where I left off at one of these previous hearings and sort of
raising the issue again of the inefficiency of approaching
these production issues in this way.
I think that a lot of the questions that have been posed
have sounded like scheduling issues to me, frankly. When can we
get this? When can we get that? When can my staff meet with
your folks over there? I really don't think we need to be
spending hearing time to do this.
This is particularly sticky for me this morning because I
am actually missing a substantive hearing in another Judiciary
Subcommittee. It is called the Right of Repair. I think Chair
Issa is leading that. It is only I think the second substantive
hearing I have done since I got on this Committee. All the
others have been the weaponization stuff or this kind of a
hearing about scheduling document productions and the like.
I will add this too to that point: I mean, just in looking
through these--by the way, when we had the Whitewater hearings
the majority and the minority actually worked together before
they sent subpoenas out to make sure they didn't send over-
broad requests. Obviously, they could have been voted out
without doing that, as this Committee has done on all its
subpoenas, I believe.
These document requests, we don't see them until later, but
these requests for all the information--let me pull up one of
them just to read it for the record.
All documents and communications from January 1, 2020, to the
present referring to, relating to the moderation, deletion,
suppression, restriction, or reduced circulation of content,
development--or development, execution, or application of a
company's content moderation policies, or a company's treatment
of the accuracy or truth of content, or the attribution of
content to the source of participation in a foreign or malign,
or a state-sponsored influence.
Then it goes down, ``All such documents and communications
internal to the NIAID,'' which is the National Institute of
Allergy and Infectious Diseases,
All such documents and communications between or among the
NIAID and any third-party groups, companies, or individuals,
and all such documents and communications between or among the
NIAID and any other executive entity.
That is a pretty broad request. As you just heard from the
testimony a moment ago, they have to pull subject matter
experts away from doing the work they are supposed to do; in
this instance, I guess it is research with respect to
infectious diseases, to answer these requests. It is like a
snowball effect of constant requests that are coming to these
agencies. I think there should be some kind of balance and
recognition that they have a larger mission to serve.
Now, we have different views about the disinformation
position. I get what you all are after, but as you heard a
moment ago, disinformation is real and the United States is a
major threat to us internationally. Foreign sources, as was
just mentioned ago: Iran, China, and Russia. If we really want
to go after disinfor-
mation, really shouldn't we start with the disinformation
expert-in-Chief, or former-Chief, President Trump? Here is an
article: ``Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims as
president. Nearly half came in his final year.'' That is from
The Washington Post, Glenn Kessler, January 23, 2021. I will
offer it for the record.
Some of this was coronavirus would disappear. The one about
bleach I thought was incredibly surprising. Hopefully you are
not saying that this type of disinformation can't be challenged
because I think it is certainly the government's place to do
it.
Mr. Cline. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. Ivey. With respect to--no. With respect to--well, I
will yield--
Mr. Cline. You are asking a question.
Mr. Ivey. I am sorry?
Mr. Cline. You asked me a question.
Mr. Ivey. All right. With respect to the election fraud
issues, which isn't the subject of this hearing, but really
critical to the disinformation piece, we had false statements
made about elections all the time. We have heard testimony in
other places, because you sure won't hear it in the House
Judiciary Committee, about State executives trying to find ways
to preempt that in 2024. I don't mean like support this guy,
support that guy. I mean stuff like this polling place isn't
going to be open, that kind of stuff.
Where it is false, we need to address that and we need to
recognize that the government should be able to address it. I
mentioned at a previous hearing on the same sort of topics the
tobacco industry and the fight against smoking, wearing seat
belts, all these kinds of things are government efforts to put
out correct information in response to frequently corporate or
political misinformation to help the public safety.
I see my time has run over. Even including the interruption
I have gone beyond that, but it is a plea for me to see if we
can do more--we have gun violence ravaging the country. What
have we had, like 300-plus mass killings this year so far? This
is the Committee that is supposed to hear those issues and do
something about it. We haven't done one hearing on it.
So, if we could--I know you guys have to do this and you
want to focus on it to some extent, but is it possible that we
could do some kind of work that addresses the major concerns,
like gun violence, that are sweeping the country, ravaging
communities, and we're not even discussing it? With that I
yield back.
Mr. Cline. The gentleman from New Jersey is recognized for
five minutes.
Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just to answer your question quickly, perhaps if we didn't
let people in and out of prison, lower felonies to
misdemeanors, and generally not obey the rule of the law, we
would have a lot less gun violence. The issue with gun violence
is that we want to do something to make obviously our country
safer, but we also don't want to harm those who are legal gun
owners who abide by the law and do no harm.
Our answers always seems to be in this body, in this
Congress that we go after the decent law-abiding citizens, but
those that have illegal guns, who steal guns, who commit crimes
we are not worried about that anymore. So, that is my sense of
that issue.
I wanted to go on--
Mr. Ivey. Would the gentleman yield for a question?
Mr. Van Drew. I can't on this and I am sorry. I would like
to if they gave us a little longer, so I apologize, but--
Mr. Ivey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Van Drew. --there are a few questions I wanted to ask.
I have been doing a lot of talking already, so I am going to
try my best with your name. Ms. Durakoglu?
Ms. Durakoglu. [No response.]
Mr. Van Drew. OK. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I
have to admit it was only recently that the State Department's
Global Engagement Center came to my attention. I have been in
government a long time, 25 years, and I have been here in
Congress for five years, yet it seems every day I am still
learning of yet another office in our government tasked with
the responsibility of censoring Americans on social media all
under the guise of national security.
So, quickly, can you please answer the following for me? I
am sorry that it has to be quick. Again, I would have loved to
have taken his question. I would love if we had more time, but
this is a system we have for good reason, otherwise we would be
here for 10 hours.
Can you please answer the following: What is the purpose of
the Global Engagement Center if not an instrument at times for
censoring free speech the Administration doesn't like? I need
you to do it quickly because I have a few other questions.
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, the Global Engagement Center does not
engage in the domestic information space whatsoever and they do
not censor information or engage in content moderation. What
they do is they analyze, identify, and expose foreign
propaganda.
Mr. Van Drew. What authority is the GEC using to determine
what constitutes the truth on social media?
Ms. Durakoglu. The GEC was Congressionally mandated by a
bipartisan bill in 2016, so I would refer to that bill.
Mr. Van Drew. OK. Do you know the authority or are you just
going to simply say it was Congressionally--
Ms. Durakoglu. They actually do not engage in the domestic
information space whatsoever.
Mr. Van Drew. Not at all?
Ms. Durakoglu. No.
Mr. Van Drew. What is the budget of the GEC and how many
people are working on this?
Ms. Durakoglu. So, I know there are approximately 100
employees in GEC, but in terms of its budget I would have to
refer you to the GEC itself. They're more than happy to brief
any Members of this Committee.
Mr. Van Drew. OK. So you don't know any idea of the actual
budget?
Ms. Durakoglu. I don't know their budget, no.
Mr. Van Drew. Yes or no, is the State Department operating
any other similar offices whose goal is to censor speech deemed
as untruthful or simply unpopular?
Ms. Durakoglu. No.
Mr. Van Drew. I have to give it to you, I very seldom get a
direct answer from anybody.
Ms. Durakoglu. Well, I am a fellow Rutgers alum, sir, so
maybe it has something to do with it.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Van Drew. Yes, so when you are in Jersey, you are tough
and you are straightforward.
The current administration's relentless encroachment on our
First Amendment rights is deeply concerning to me. It is
especially unnerving considering that the President of the
Department, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, orchestrated
the intelligence community letter that was used to undermine
the Hunter Biden laptop story leading to censorship of the New
York Post story on this matter. So, there is a concerning
pattern of suppressing speech coming from the leadership of
this administration. Maybe it is not you, but Anthony Blinken
has a lot to answer for.
It seems evident that nearly every agency from the State
Department to the HHS and the DOJ is embroiled in efforts in
some way to suppress free speech on nearly every topic. This
effort extends to external groups like the Alliance for
Securing Democracy, the Atlantic Council, the Global
Disinformation Index, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, and
I assume countless others that I probably don't even know.
Given the government's overwhelming involvement in looking
into American's conversations, it is crucial that this
Committee rigorously exercise its oversight role and its
responsibility because I find it very hard to believe that
these actions haven't also ensnared a considerable number of
innocent Americans.
That is why on April 18th the Committee submitted a letter
to Secretary Blinken requesting documents and information
relating to the Department's possible coercion and collusion
with companies and other intermediaries to stifle free speech.
We are still waiting, we are still waiting for a response to
that request.
Yes or no, can you provide an estimate for when the
Committee can expect to receive these documents? If nothing is
wrong, if everything is good, if everything is right, you
should want to turn them all over.
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, we actually did respond and we've
provided four productions that equals nearly 1,200 pages, but
it's on a rolling basis and we expect to provide more.
Mr. Van Drew. My understanding there is much, much more
that we didn't receive and we would love an accurate accounting
of that, because that is also Congress' job and responsibility.
Say yes or no, can the State Department guarantee the
delivery of unredacted documents as per our request by August
1st?
Ms. Durakoglu. Sir, we provide everything, and some of that
includes redactions, but we're happy to work with your staff on
an accommodations process on those redactions.
Mr. Van Drew. I hope you will.
Ms. Durakoglu. Yes.
Mr. Van Drew. I hope you really mean that. I hope it is
only redacted when it is matters of national security. It has
been this Committee's experience that constantly areas are
redacted, and not just with you folks, but in general, that
just don't know the need to be and it is not national security.
So, I hope you will.
Ms. Durakoglu. Congressman, can I respond to that?
Mr. Van Drew. Yes.
Ms. Durakoglu. I personally reviewed the four tranches that
we provided to this Committee and I could say the vast majority
is not redacted. When it is, it's due to personnel information
privacy. Some of the implementers of the Global Engagement
Center have faced threats from foreign actors and that's the
reason why the redactions are there.
Mr. Van Drew. I appreciate that. Just to close up, there
are so many different departments, so many different agencies,
so many people looking into for lack of a term personal stuff
and personal freedoms. The most important freedom, more than
security, is to have freedom. Freedom is more important than
security. If we give up our freedom in America, we have given
up everything. I fiercely believe that. I thank you. I yield
back.
Mr. Cline. I thank the gentleman.
I want to thank our witnesses. I am going to take my five
minutes. The CDC has a central role in setting COVID-19
guidelines and deeming itself the arbiter of truth of claims
associated with the disease, but common sense dictates that
there are far more than 1,691 substantive pages of documents
with the agency's possession. Additionally, the HHS has
redacted names in the documents produced including the names of
CDC personnel obstructing the Committee's efforts to identify
key players in the CDC tech censorship regime.
On April 28, 2023, the Committee subpoenaed the CDC for
documents and information related to this coordination and
collusion. As I said, we have received only 1,691 substantive
pages. It is wholly inadequate, wholly incomplete and
inadequate.
Assistant Secretary Egorin, why has the CDC failed to
produce all or at least many more responsive documents given
the May 22nd deadline in the subpoena?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, we have produced, as you noted,
almost 2,000 pages in response to the letters and subpoena and
we produced additional pages just last week. We continue to be
responsive and work in good faith as information moves forward.
Mr. Cline. Now, the Subcommittee compels the production of
various additional categories of documents as well. For
example, certain documents and communications between or among
the CDC and the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government. The
subpoena compels the production of documents internal to the
CDC as well. Would you not agree that the HHS has not produced
all documents responsive to the subpoena?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, we continue to work in good faith
to be responsive to your oversight requests. So, we produce--
Mr. Cline. Would you agree that, thus far, you have not
been completely responsive?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, so far we've produced 2,000 pages
and we continue to work in good faith as we work through our
process of identifying documents.
Mr. Cline. Have you produced any documents or
communications between or among the CDC and Executive Branch
agencies?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, I do not have the productions in
front of me, so I would like to be able to get back to you on
that.
Mr. Cline. I can tell you the exact number. Zero. So, zero
pages of communications and documents between or among the CDC
and Executive Branch agencies. Can you give us some idea of why
you are differentiating between and essentially being selective
in which documents you have decided to produce and which you
haven't?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, we are not being selective. We are
working to produce documents in a timely manner.
Mr. Cline. OK.
Ms. Egorin. We've done four productions to date and we will
continue to work in good faith to produce additional documents.
Mr. Cline. I am just curious because, leaving an entire
category of internal documents aside and not producing a single
page, you would think we would at least get some recognition
that that category of information is important. Do you consider
it to be important?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, I'm not making value judgments of
what's more important or less important to the Committee. I'm
happy to talk to you about prioritization of documents, but
also want to recognize that we have produced 2,000 pages in
response to this request and continue to work in good faith and
work through our processes to identify documents.
Mr. Cline. I am told one of the productions was a total of
61 pages. Does that seem like drip, drip, drip delay?
Ms. Egorin. So, Congressman, I'm going to judge--or I'm
going to say that our team continues to work through our
processes, and rather than sit and hold information, continue
to produce, as my colleague said, in a rolling basis.
Mr. Cline. So, other categories of the subpoena
specifically refer to documents sufficient to show the persons
and individuals who are or have been responsible in any way or
that the CDC has cooperated with, consulted with, or relied on
formally or informally in, quote,
. . . developing, applying, executing, implementing, or
communicating the CDC's policies, views, or concerns relating
to the moderation, deletion, suppression, restriction, or
reduced circulation of content.
The HHS' production thus far has redacted the names in
emails of employees and third parties. Can you confirm that you
are redacting and can you confirm that you will produce
unredacted copies of these documents?
Ms. Egorin. Congressman, I can confirm that there are
redactions within the documents. Redactions exist for many
reasons including personal identifying information. We take the
safety of our employees and individuals very seriously and--
Mr. Cline. As do we. I am going to end. I have got 20
seconds left. Shifting gears a little bit. We are not going to
do second round, but I want all of you to be aware, and I am
going to submit for the record a letter that the Chair, Chair
Jordan wrote to Director Wray of the FBI, who we have also had
difficulties getting information from, but letting him know
that it is not acceptable, that we are done waiting, and that
this Committee is going to be taking action against him and
those who continue to delay and obfuscate and refuse to provide
that information.
Mr. Cline. So, we look forward to hopefully getting that
information from the both of you. We look forward to hopefully
not having to take further action to encourage the production
of those documents.
With that, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:55 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
All materials submitted for the record by Members of the
Subcommittee on Responsiveness and Accountability to Oversight
can be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/
ByEvent .aspx?EventID=116231.
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