[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA:
                   IMPLICATIONS ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
               PUBLIC SAFETY, AND GOVERNMENT TRANSPARENCY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
                    THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                                 OF THE

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 26, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-53

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
  
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


                       Available on: govinfo.gov
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov
                             
                                __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
53-022 PDF                   WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                             
               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida               Jimmy Gomez, California
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Shontel Brown, Ohio
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Vacancy
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
             Kaity Wolfe, Senior Professional Staff Member
         Grayson Westmoreland, Senior Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

   Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs

                  Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin, Chairman
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Robert Garcia, California, Ranking 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Minority Member
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Dan Goldman, New York
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Maxwell Frost, Florida
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Vacancy
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Vacancy
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on July 26, 2023....................................     1

                               Witnesses

                              ----------                              

Mr. Ryan Graves, Executive Director, Americans for Safe Aerospace
Oral Statement...................................................    10

Mr. David Grusch, Former National Reconnaissance Office 
  Representative, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, 
  Department of Defense
Oral Statement...................................................    11

Commander David Fravor (Ret.), Former Commanding Officer, United 
  States Navy
Oral Statement...................................................    12

Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              

  * Report, Jeremy Corbell, ``The UAP Puzzle''; submitted by Rep. 
    Burchett.

  * Statement for the Record, by George Knapp; submitted by Rep. 
    Burchett.

  * Defense Intelligence Reference Document, ``Advanced Space 
    Propulsion Based on Vacuum (Spacetime Metric) Engineering''; 
    submitted by Rep. Burchett.

  * Article, NewsNation, ``We are not alone: The UFO 
    whistleblower speaks''; submitted by Rep. Luna.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.

 
                   UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA:
                   IMPLICATIONS ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
               PUBLIC SAFETY, AND GOVERNMENT TRANSPARENCY

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, July 26, 2023

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

                   Subcommittee on National Security,
                    the Border, and Foreign Affairs

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn Office Building, Hon. Glenn Grothman, 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Grothman, Gosar, Foxx, Sessions, 
Biggs, Mace, LaTurner, Armstrong, Perry, Garcia, Moskowitz, and 
Frost.
    Also present: Representatives Luna, Burlison, Gaetz, 
Burchett, Comer, Ogles, Langworthy, Raskin, and Ocasio-Cortez.
    Mr. Grothman. The Subcommittee on unidentified anomalous 
phenomena, or UAPs, will come to order.
    Welcome, everyone. Without objection, the Chair may declare 
a recess at any time. Additionally, without objection, the 
following Members are waived on to the Subcommittee for the 
purpose of participating in today's hearing: Mr. Burchett of 
Tennessee, Ms. Luna of Florida, Mr. Gaetz of Florida, Mr. 
Burlison of Missouri, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez of New York, and Mr. 
Ogles of Tennessee. Without objection so ordered.
    For today's Subcommittee hearing both the Chair and Ranking 
Member will have 10 minutes for opening remarks. We may both be 
giving some of those minutes to other Members of our party.
    I am now going to recognize myself for 10 minutes. I am 
actually going to try to get out of here in about four and then 
we will give it to some of my friends over here.
    Good morning, and welcome to the most exciting Subcommittee 
in Congress this week, the Subcommittee on National Security, 
the Border, and Foreign Affairs for discussion of unidentified 
anomalous phenomenon.
    I would like to thank the brave military panelists and 
personnel, such as the witnesses on the panel today, for 
sharing their stories on how they have engaged UAPs, which has 
brought attention to this matter.
    Curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have 
generated interest in studying what UAPs are and what threats 
they may pose. I will say that when I was younger in school I 
read a book--a 1966 book called ``Flying Saucers Serious 
Business'' and for a while when I was a little bit younger, I 
thought it was the most important issue out there.
    The lack of transparency regarding UAPs, which was one of 
the themes of that book--in any event, it has led to interest 
in studying what UAPs are and what threats they pose.
    The lack of transparency regarding UAPs has fueled wild 
speculation and debate for decades, eroding public trust in the 
very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them as 
is evidenced by the large number of people we have here.
    I also want to point out in 1966, President Gerald Ford 
claimed to have seen a UFO, and in 1969 in Georgia, Jimmy 
Carter claimed to have seen a UFO. So, this has led Congress to 
establish entities to examine UAPs.
    The National Defense Authorization Act of 2022 established 
the all-domain anomaly resolution officer--AARO--to conduct or 
to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and 
other Federal agents to detect, identify, and investigate UAPs. 
However, AARO's budget remains classified, prohibiting 
meaningful oversight from Congress.
    In addition to AARO's efforts, NASA is leading an 
independent study on UAPs to identify how UAP data is gathered 
from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed 
to shed light on the topic.
    However, despite these offices being established there lies 
a pressing demand for government transparency and 
accountability that cannot be overlooked and that has been a 
problem that has been around for 50 years.
    The Biden Administration's handling of the Chinese spy 
balloon that violated U.S. air space is one example how the 
government is not prepared for these. The Biden 
Administration's description of events has shown that the 
government continues not to be forthright.
    Between the Chinese balloon being shot down and two UAPs 
subsequently shot down following the event earlier this year 
the U.S. Government spent $1.5 million in taxpayer dollars on 
missiles. Yet, we have seen little clarity from the Biden 
Administration.
    We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, 
our intelligence community, and our defense industry on the UAP 
work. We are going to have some questions about that today.
    Congress recognizes the subject of UAPs is multifaceted and 
requires a careful data-driven approach. Today, we will seek 
clarity from these witnesses' testimonies as to what can be 
done to improve reporting for military and civilians and remain 
committed to objective inquiry. Congress should work to ensure 
that knowledge is not driven by fear.
    Today, we are not just debating the existence of UAPs. We 
are deliberating on the principles that define our republic, 
which is a commitment to transparency and accountability.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about 
ways we can improve government efficiency and openness when it 
comes to UAPs. I thank of you for your presence here today and 
for your dedication to safeguarding the interests of the 
American people. I look forward to your testimony.
    Now I am going to turn it over for two and a half or 3 
minutes to Representative Burchett from Tennessee.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 
being here. I want to thank everybody for making this happen 
today and I want to remind everybody this is a nonpartisan 
issue. This has nothing to do with party politics. I think the 
cover up goes a lot deeper than that.
    I also want to thank my colleagues, Representative Anna 
Paulina Luna, sitting beside me here; Jared Moskowitz, my 
friend across the aisle, who has an incredible mind, and I am 
anxious to hear his questions; my buddy, Eric Burlison. And it 
is not in my notes here but Matt Gaetz--if it had not been for 
Matt Gaetz, myself, him, and Luna would still be down at Eglin 
Air Force Base trying to get some answers. He has got an 
incredible legal mind.
    Also, I know I saw out in the crowd there George Knapp, my 
buddy, Jeremy Corbell. They are not witnesses, but they have 
provided some statements on this subject, and I seek unanimous 
consent to enter those statements into the record, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Mr. Burchett. I also would like to enter in--I understand 
now that this is unclassified, and it is public record but as 
we all know that is sometimes difficult for the public to get a 
hold of--a report, defense intelligence reference documents, 
``Advanced Space Propulsion Based on Vacuum (spacetime metric) 
Engineering,'' some light reading for some of our Members.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you. You know, Mr. Knapp wrote since 
1969, the position of our military has been that UFOs posed no 
threat to national security and are not worthy of further 
study. I would say that is the biggest understatement of the 
decade.
    He also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude is at 
odds with what was revealed in documents, reports, and internal 
memos. And Mr. Corbell says as he writes these words, the UFO 
is emerging as a major topic of global importance.
    I can state that as a fact out there. I met a fellow who 
came in here all the way from Denmark to be here for this 
meeting. So, this is huge. This is worldwide. I think we 
suspect what is going on.
    But I would also like to thank the Members of Congress who 
have supported our efforts to make this hearing happen. Some 
have even confided in me that they have had UFO sightings of 
their own.
    Those Members, of course, some of them wish to remain 
anonymous and I will keep it that way. But also, finally, I 
would like to thank these three brave witnesses here. They took 
an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and 
daggum it they are doing it and we owe them a debt of 
gratitude.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Burchett. You all quit clapping. You are cutting in on 
my time.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Burchett. Just kidding. These folks, they have got 
nothing to gain from this and I think you are going to find out 
that they have endured quite a few slings and arrows. We need 
to remember them in our prayers and their families, and I am 
thankful to them for their honest testimoneys.
    They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries 
like ``Accidental Truth'' to get their stories out there and 
now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress. It 
has been so difficult to get here today.
    I have said, you know, in the Baptist Church we would say 
that the devil is in our way and the devil has been in our way 
through this thing. We have run into roadblocks from Members, 
from the intelligence community, the Pentagon.
    I proposed legislation to go in the FAA reauthorization 
that just said if an airline pilot has a sighting that when he 
makes that report to the FAA that it would come to Congress.
    But I was told that the intelligence community did not like 
that, and the bill was--the amendment was not even heard in 
committee. I think it is time for this country to take back our 
country.
    We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us, 
daggum it. We do not work for them and that is exactly the 
point. This is an issue of government transparency.
    We cannot trust a government that does not trust its 
people. We are not bringing little green men or flying saucers 
into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half of you all.
    We are just going to get to the facts. We are going to 
uncover the cover up and I hope this is just the beginning of 
many more hearings and more people coming forward about this.
    And I yield back the remainder of my time, I think--is it 
to Representative Luna, Mr. Chairman, or is that----
    Mr. Grothman. Yes, we will call Ms. Luna for her statement.
    Ms. Luna. The circumstances surrounding UAPs has captivated 
the attention of the American people for decades, ingrained in 
even the minds of our Nation's leaders from Jimmy Carter to 
Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to 
Chuck Schumer, John Ratcliffe to National Security Council 
officials.
    Yet, from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville, 
Florida, the sightings of UAPs have rarely been explained by 
the people who have firsthand accounts of these situations.
    This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own 
government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good 
on their promises to release explanations and footage and 
mountains of over-classified documents that continue to be 
hidden from the American people.
    This is not just how I feel. In fact, the American people 
largely believe that the government has actively covered up the 
truth about UAPs.
    One poll, in particular, found that 68 percent of Americans 
believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs 
and not being honest about what we know about them and from my 
personal experience I believe the same thing. Another poll 
found that nearly half of Americans believe that the Federal 
Government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing 
with reports of UFO sightings.
    As Representative Burchett just referenced on the FAA bills 
that just went through, you can tell that that is exactly 
happening.
    Considering the thousands of testimoneys and videos taken 
on people's phones and eyewitnesses' accounts made by credible 
witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active-duty 
service members, it is unacceptable to continue to gaslight 
Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the 
potential of intelligent life forms exist other than humans.
    Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are, 
many times, service members and have no assurance that their 
lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their 
experiences.
    In being an active-duty service member working on an 
airfield, I have had conversations with many pilots where they 
were in fear of coming forward for retribution and/or being 
taken off flight status.
    How do we know this? Because the government has said 
nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also done nothing to 
calm the concerns of over 20 percent of Americans who have 
reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs. We are simply told not to 
question the government and that the government has it under 
control.
    Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will 
attempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening 
with UAPs. But we will hear from people who have had personal 
sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been 
sent to stonewall our investigations.
    Just so that the press knows, and the people know, we were 
even denied access to a classified briefing in a SCIF prior to 
this hearing due to the amount of hoops that we had to jump 
through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grusch, who has 
knowledge of classified information.
    It is time to have an open-minded discussion on this topic, 
to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this 
means not just for our Nation but for humanity.
    Thank you, Chairman. I yield back the rest of my time.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you very much. And I would like to 
thank you and Mr. Burchett for bringing this topic to my 
attention.
    Now we will recognize National Security Subcommittee 
Ranking Member Garcia for 10 minutes.
    Mr. Garcia. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank first our witnesses for joining us today. I want to begin 
by thanking you all for your service to our country and for 
sharing your voices today and your courage to be here as well.
    To Mr. Graves, I am particularly grateful to you to spend 
some time that we had for you to share with candor some of your 
experiences. So, I appreciate that as well.
    I do want to thank all the Members of our Subcommittee 
today and also those that are here and have waived on for their 
incredible interest in this issue, particularly to Congressman 
Burchett. I know that your leadership has brought us to this 
place today and I want to thank you for that as well as 
everyone else that has been engaged in this work.
    I also want to thank the Oversight staff who I know has 
been working very hard to ensure that today's hearing is 
serious, that it is transparent, and that it also provides 
appropriate answers as our Oversight body always demands.
    Now, it is really important that we are here in a 
bipartisan way to have this conversation which really to the 
heart of it is about national security and key to the 
Subcommittee's core purpose.
    This is the Subcommittee on National Security of the 
Oversight Committee.
    Now, our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed 
a serious safety threat and we must understand this. More 
broadly, we are dealing with real questions that get to the 
heart of our faith in government.
    Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all-
time low. Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy 
to doubt narrative or our institutions. But this hearing will 
offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of 
reporting by both Federal agencies and the independent media.
    Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a 
groundbreaking 2017 New York Times report which revealed 
research as we know now on unidentified anomalous phenomena or 
as many call UFOs by the Defense Intelligence Agency.
    Mr. Graves and Commander Fravor's experiences with UAPs 
have also been documented by the public, not just by the New 
York Times but CNN and many other national news outlets.
    Now, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence 
has published public reports documenting UAPs and on June 9, 
2022, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study 
to, of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena.
    Now, the sheer number of reports, whistleblowers, and 
stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should raise real 
questions and warrant investigation and oversight and that is 
why we are here today.
    Now, pilots have reported encounters for years and because 
of the stigma around reporting these incidents we still do not 
have a complete picture of actually what is going on, 
particularly, as your witnesses will testify, on the civilian 
side and that is a real problem that we have today in the 
country.
    Now, it is very important that we show that Democrats and 
Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way 
to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a 
serious and thoughtful manner.
    If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we 
must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed 
getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad 
public support as part of the process.
    Now, I understand fully the Department of Defense is 
hesitant to share information that could also undermine our 
national security by revealing information on the capabilities 
of our own aircraft, our sensors, and other sensitive material.
    At the same time, many people believe that we are 
withholding information from them and that is dangerous also. I 
believe in openness and transparency. That is also the role of 
Congress, and I want to trust that the American people will be 
able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds.
    Now, we have incidents when sensors, sometimes even 
multiple types of sensors, detect things that we cannot 
explain. UAPs, whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat 
to our military or civilian aircraft and that must be 
understood.
    Now, my career and training as a longtime and career 
educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should 
never rule anything out. We know that our space, of course, is 
vast and undiscovered.
    I also want to note that Mr. Sean Kirkpatrick, Director of 
the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the 
DoD office that investigates UAP data, has testified before the 
Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of 
extraterrestrial activity.
    NASA has also stated they do not have evidence of 
extraterrestrial life either and we have heard this, of course, 
from some of our government agencies. And we should remind 
viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that 
we also cannot share classified information in public settings.
    But questions, of course, remain that people want to see 
data and information for themselves. The enormous interest in 
the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open 
look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique 
perspectives.
    Now, I know I certainly have a lot of questions. I know 
that all the Members of our Committee do as well. We should 
come to this hearing with an open mind, and we should not let 
our existing ideas restrict us on either side.
    I hear over and over from many agencies the stigma around 
reporting and investigating UAPs prevents us from getting real 
answers. We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment, 
intimidation, or stigma as well and this is not acceptable.
    If people cannot report incidents which would have national 
security or safety implications, then that also has serious 
consequences for us.
    As Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, I know my job would 
be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel 
intimidated to come before this Committee. We cannot be afraid 
of asking questions and we cannot be afraid of the truth.
    I am proud to say that this hearing builds upon bipartisan 
work by Members of the House and Senate dating many years back 
which is sought to increase awareness within the Department of 
Defense and more--and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs.
    We know the Senate is taking up an amendment to their 
defense authorization bill which will create a commission with 
broad declassification authority, and we should all agree that 
that is an important step.
    Members of both parties and senior officials in multiple 
administrations have taken an interest in this issue and we are 
proud to carry and build that confidence in the American 
people.
    This hearing will also not be the end of the discussion but 
a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many 
folks both in the public and within government have been 
working on. We should encourage more reporting, not less, on 
UAPs. The more that we understand, the safer we will be.
    We will hear testimony from witnesses today with a long 
record of service to the American people and with subject 
matter expertise.
    Our witnesses have a unique opportunity to share their 
perspective, insights, and their experiences with the American 
people and I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with 
these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the 
facts on behalf of our country.
    I also just want to say, more broadly, that we should look 
at this hearing and believe that everything is on the table as 
it relates to UAPs. I think an open mind is absolutely the 
best.
    I want to yield the two and a half minutes, the remainder 
of my time, to the representative from Florida, Representative 
Moskowitz, for an opening statement. He also has been very much 
engaged in this issue and I want to thank him for his 
leadership.
    Congressman?
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Ranking Member Garcia. Thank you, 
Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Tim Burchett and Anna Paulina 
Luna for their leadership in pushing this hearing forward.
    I want to thank, obviously, committee staff and their staff 
working on this on a bipartisan basis because many Americans 
are deeply interested in this issue, and it should not take the 
potential of nonhuman origin to bring us together.
    Additionally, I want to thank the witnesses for coming 
forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts, and the 
sightings of UAPs. Unlike other hearings many times in Congress 
you are not here to help a political party, but you are here to 
share information with the American people, and it is not 
something that is just going on in this Administration.
    It is something that has spanned many administrations. For 
decades many Americans have been fascinated by objects 
mysterious and unexplained and it is long past time that they 
got some answers.
    The American public has a right to learn about technologies 
of unknown origins, nonhuman intelligence, and unexplainable 
phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account. 
That is a direct quote from Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, that 
the American public has a right to learn about technologies of 
unknown origins, nonhuman intelligence, and unexplainable 
phenomena.
    In an interview with Fox News, recent former Director of 
National Intelligence John Ratcliffe confirmed the U.S. 
Government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they 
have not made that information public. I quote, ``There are a 
lot more sightings that have not been made public,'' Ratcliffe 
said to Fox News.
    For me, this hearing is about transparency. We, 
unfortunately, live in a time in which many people distrust 
government and our institutions and over classification of 
information away from the American public or even Congress 
contributes to today's politics.
    The American people have regular questions. What are UAPs? 
How come the media does not report more on them? Are they 
foreign adversaries? Are they U.S. technology? Are they 
something else?
    They ask themselves how come when a Russian jet shoots 
flares at one of our drones--we have perfect pictures and 
videos to show the American people and the world--but when it 
comes to UAPs nothing.
    Of course, we must always protect our national security to 
maintain our superiority like when stealth helicopters were 
only rumored to exist but were used in the Osama bin Laden raid 
in 2011.
    But we cannot allow that to be used as a shield to keep the 
American people completely in the dark from basic truths. The 
American people deserve to hear more about special access 
programs.
    Congress has a right to know if there is any unsanctioned 
weapons development satellite imagery that has not been 
provided to Congress. Congress created the All-Domain 
Resolution Office in the NDAA of 2022.
    In its initial analysis there are 171 uncharacterized UAP 
reports--and this is the words from the report--that appear to 
have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance 
capabilities.
    I believe more information is known about the 171 
instances. It is time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I 
call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to 
release more information to the American people about UAPs. And 
to our military leaders, if there is nothing to conceal let 
Congress go to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, the Doug Wright 
Proving Ground, or even Groom Lake in Nevada. We should have 
disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time 
has come.
    Thank you, Ranking Member.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Moskowitz, and I will yield back 
now to our Chairman. Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. Alright. Now I would like to introduce our 
witnesses. Our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He is 
the Executive Director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. 
Lieutenant Graves is also a former U.S. Navy F-18 pilot with 
his own UAP experience.
    The next witness, David Grusch, is a former senior 
intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence 
Agency and was a senior technical advisor for UAP issues.
    And, finally, retired Navy Commander David Fravor, squadron 
leader who worked as a naval aviator for 18 years. Mr. Fravor 
has his own UAP experience known as the Tic Tac event.
    I look forward to hearing from all three of you today. 
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please 
stand and raise their right hands.
    Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    [Witnesses are sworn.]
    Mr. Grothman. Let the record show that all the witnesses 
answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. We appreciate 
you all being here today and look forward to your testimony.
    I will remind the witnesses that we have read your written 
statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. 
Please try to limit your oral statements to 5 minutes.
    As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in 
front of you so that it is on, and the Members can hear you. 
When you begin to speak the light in front of you will turn 
green. After 4 minutes it will turn yellow and the red light 
when that comes it tells you your 5 minutes have expired.
    I will now recognize Mr. Graves for 5 minutes for your 
opening statement.

                        STATEMENT OF RYAN GRAVES

                           EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

                      AMERICANS FOR SAFE AEROSPACE

    Mr. Graves. Thank you, Chairman Grothman, Ranking Member 
Garcia, distinguished Members of the House Oversight 
Subcommittee on National Security, Representatives Burchett and 
Luna.
    My name is Ryan ``FOBS'' Graves and I am a former F-18 
pilot with a decade of service in the U.S. Navy including two 
deployments in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation 
Inherent Resolve.
    I have experienced advanced UAP firsthand and I am here to 
voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial aircrew and 
military veterans who have confided their similar encounters 
with me.
    Today I would like to highlight three critical issues that 
demand our action. As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace 
but they are grossly under reported. These sightings are not 
rare or isolated. They are routine. Military aircrew and 
commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on 
accurate identification, are frequently witnessing these 
phenomena.
    The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and 
challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who 
fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses, and is 
only compounded by recent government claims questioning the 
credibility of eyewitness testimony.
    Parts of our government are aware more about UAP than they 
let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial 
information hidden. Since 2021 all UAP videos are classified as 
secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our 
understanding but fuels speculation and mistrust.
    In 2014, I was an F-18 Foxtrot pilot in the Navy Fighter 
Attack Squadron 11, the Red Rippers, and I was stationed at NAS 
Oceana in Virginia Beach. After upgrades were made to our jet's 
radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in 
our airspace.
    At first, we assumed they were radar errors but soon we 
began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard 
sensors, including infrared systems, eventually through visual 
ID.
    During a training mission in Warning Area W-72, 10 miles 
off the coast of Virginia Beach, two F-18 Super Hornets were 
split by a UAP. The object, described as a dark gray or a black 
cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead 
aircraft and was estimated to be five to 15 feet in diameter.
    The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and 
returned to base. Our squadron submitted a safety report but 
there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no 
further mechanism to report the sightings.
    Soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would 
discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular preflight 
briefs. Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded 
Americans for Safe Aerospace.
    The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses 
who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe 
intake process. More than thirty witnesses have come forward 
and almost 5,000 Americans have joined us in the fight for 
transparency at safeaerospace.org.
    The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at major 
airlines. Often, they are veterans with decades of flying 
experience. Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear 
above them at 40,000 feet, potentially in low Earth orbit or in 
the gray zone below the common line, making unexplainable 
maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits, or J 
hooks.
    Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous 
recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic. 
Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP 
encounters in our airspace and oceans. The most compelling 
involve observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor 
systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the 
surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe 
to do so.
    In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this 
topic. If everyone could see the sensor and video data I 
witnessed, our national conversation would change. I urge us to 
put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this 
topic represents.
    If UAP are foreign drones, is an urgent national security 
problem. If it is something else, it is an issue for science. 
In either case, unidentified objects are a concern for flight 
safety. The American people deserve to know what is happening 
in our skies. It is long overdue.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Grusch?

                       STATEMENT OF DAVID GRUSCH

         FORMER NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICER REPRESENTATIVE

              UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA TASK FORCE

                         DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

    Mr. Grusch. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Members and Congressmen, 
thank you. I am happy to be here. This is an important issue, 
and I am grateful for your time.
    My name is David Charles Grusch. I was an intelligence 
officer for 14 years both in the U.S. Air Force, both active-
duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of Major and 
most recently from 2021 to 2025--excuse me, 2023--at the 
National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, NGA, at the GS-15 
civilian level, which is the military equivalent of a full bird 
colonel.
    I was my agency's co-lead in unidentified anomalous 
phenomena and trans medium object analysis as well as reporting 
to the UAP Task Force--UAPTF--and eventually, once it was 
established, the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office--AARO.
    I became a whistleblower through a PPD-19 urgent concern 
filing in May 2022 with the intelligence community inspector 
general following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and 
credentialed current and former military and intelligence 
community individuals that the U.S. Government is operating 
with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to 
UAPs.
    My testimony is based on information I have been given by 
individuals with a long-standing track record of legitimacy and 
service to this country, many of whom also have shared 
compelling evidence in the form of photography, official 
documentation, and classified oral testimony to myself and many 
of my various colleagues.
    I have taken every step I can to corroborate this evidence 
over a period of 4 years while I was with the UAP Task Force 
and do my due diligence on the individuals sharing it. It is 
because of these steps, I believe strongly in the importance of 
bringing this information before you.
    I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and 
transparency, rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United 
States Constitution and protect the American people. I am 
asking Congress to hold our government to this standard and 
thoroughly investigate these claims.
    But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the 
facts as I have been told them. In the U.S. Air Force in my 
National Reconnaissance Office--NRO--reservist capacity, I was 
a member of the UAP Task Force from 2019 to 2021.
    I served at the NRO operations center on the Director's 
briefing staff, which included the coordination of the 
Presidential daily brief and supporting a variety of 
contingency operations, which I was the reserve intelligence 
division chief backup.
    In 2019, the UAP Task Force Director asked me to identify 
all special access programs and controlled access programs, 
also known as SAPs and CAPs, we needed to satisfy our 
congressionally mandated mission and we would direct report at 
the time to the DEP/SecDef.
    At the time, due to my extensive executive level 
intelligence support duties I was cleared to literally all 
relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both 
in my military and civilian capacities.
    I was informed in the course of my official duties of a 
multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering 
program to which I was denied access to those additional read-
ons when I requested it.
    I made the decision based on the data I collected to report 
this information to my superiors and multiple inspectors 
general and, in effect, becoming a whistleblower. As you know, 
I have suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful 
that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of 
increased transparency.
    Thank you, and I am happy to answer your questions.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
    Commander Fravor?

                    STATEMENT OF DAVID FRAVOR (RET.)

                       FORMER COMMANDING OFFICER

                           UNITED STATES NAVY

    Commander Fravor. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
Congressmen and Congresswomen.
    I want to first thank you for the invitation to speak to 
the Committee on the UAP topic. This has been in the news for 
the past 6 years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum.
    As you know, my name is David Fravor. I am a retired 
Commander in the United States Navy. In 2004, I was a 
commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41, the world-
famous Black Aces. We were tasked to Carrier Airwing 11 
stationed on board the USS Nimitz and had begun a 2-month 
workup cycle off the coast of California.
    On this day we were scheduled for a 2 V 2 air to air 
training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we 
launched off, Nimitz, my wingman, was joining up. We were told 
that the training was going to be suspended and we are going to 
proceed with real-world tasking.
    As we proceeded to the west, the air controller was 
counting down the range to an object that we were going to, and 
we were unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived. 
There the controller told us that these objects had been 
observed for over 2 weeks coming down from over 80,000 feet, 
rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and 
then going straight back up. For those that do not realize, 
above 80,000 feet is space.
    We arrived at the location at approximately 20,000 feet and 
the controller called merge plot, which means that our radar 
blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact. As we 
looked around, we noticed that we saw some whitewater off our 
right side.
    It is important to note that the weather on this day was as 
close to perfect as you could ask for off the coast of San 
Diego. Clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no whitecaps from 
waves. So, the whitewater stood out in a large blue ocean.
    All four of us, because we were an F-18F so we had pilots 
and WSO in the backseat, looked down and saw a white Tic Tac 
object with a longitudinal axis pointing north south and moving 
very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball.
    There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible 
control surfaces like wings. As we started clockwise toward the 
object my WSO and I decided to go down and take a closer look 
with the other aircraft staying in high cover to observe both 
us and the Tic Tac.
    We proceeded around the circle about 90 degrees from the 
start of our descent and the object suddenly shifted its 
longitudinal axis, aligned it with my aircraft, and began to 
climb. We continued down another 270 degrees, nose low, where 
the Tic Tac would have been.
    Our altitude at this point was about 15,000 feet and a Tic 
Tac was about 12,000. As we pulled nose onto the object within 
about a half mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us 
and disappeared. Our wingman, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost 
contact also.
    We immediately turned back to see where the whitewater was 
at, and it was gone also. So, as we started to turn back toward 
the east, the controller came up and said, ``sir, you are not 
going to believe this, but that thing is at your CAP point 
roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute.'' You can 
calculate the speed.
    We returned to Nimitz. We were taking off our gear. We were 
talking to one of my crews, who was getting ready to launch. We 
mentioned it to him, and they went out and luckily got the 
video that you see, that 90-second video.
    What you do not see is the radar tape that was never 
released, and we do not know where it is at, of the act of 
jamming that the object put on an APG-73 radar, and I can get 
into modes later if you are interested.
    What is shocking to us is that the incident was never 
investigated. None of my crew were ever questioned. The tapes 
were never taken and after a couple days it turned into a great 
story with friends. It was not until 2009, until Jay Stratton 
had contacted me to investigate. Unbeknownst to all, he was 
part of the ATIP program in the Pentagon led by Lue Elizondo.
    There was an unofficial official report that came out that 
is now on the internet. Years later, I was contacted by the 
other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I would been contacted 
and I said no, but I am willing to talk. I was contacted by Mr. 
Elizondo, and we talked for a short period of time. He said we 
would be in contact.
    A few weeks after that I was made aware that Lue had left 
the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom DeLonge, 
Chris Mellon, Steve Justice and others to form To the Stars 
Academy, an organization that pressed the issue with leading 
industry experts and U.S. Government officials.
    They work with Leslie Keane, who is present today, Ralph 
Blumenthal and Helene Cooper to publish the articles in the 
2017 New York Times and it removed the stigma on the topic of 
UFOs, which is why we are here today.
    Those articles opened the door for the government and 
public that cannot be closed. It has led to an interest from 
our elected officials who are not focused on little green men 
but figuring out where these craft are, where are they from, 
the technology they possess, how do they operate.
    It also led to the Whistleblower Protection Act in the 
NDAA. There are multiple witnesses coming forward to say--that 
have firsthand knowledge, and Mr. Grusch just covered that.
    What concerns me is that there is no oversight from our 
elected officials on anything associated with our government 
processing or working on craft believed not from this world. 
This issue is not a full public disclosure that can undermine 
national security, but it is about ensuring that our system of 
checks and balances works across all work done in the 
government using taxpayer funds.
    Relative to government programs, even unacknowledged waived 
programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate 
committee members in the House and Senate and this work that is 
said to be occurring from whistleblower testimoneys should not 
be exempt.
    In closing, I would like to say that the Tic Tac object we 
engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on 
time, have today, or looking to develop in the next 10 years.
    If we in fact have programs that possess this technology, 
it needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens 
of this great country elected in office to represent what is 
best for the United States and best for the citizens.
    I thank you for your time. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you very much. I know it was very 
difficult for all of you, all you have done in the past to try 
to illuminate this issue.
    I call on myself first for some questions. I am going to 
start with Mr. Graves.
    Are your pilots, or pilots that you interact with as part 
of your organization, do you feel are adequately trained and 
briefed on how to handle encounters with UAPs?
    Mr. Graves. No. Right now, military witnesses to UAP have 
limited options for reporting UAP. But more concerning is that 
the commercial aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons 
that military has implemented.
    The military and Department of Defense has stated that UAP 
represent a critical aviation safety risk. We have not seen 
that same language being used in the commercial markets. They 
are not acknowledging this risk.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. What steps do you think have to be taken 
to improve a pilot's UAP reporting, be it military or 
commercial?
    Mr. Graves. Right now, we need a system where pilots can 
report without fear of losing their jobs. There is a fear that 
the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to 
professional repercussions either through management or perhaps 
through their yearly physical check.
    So, having a secure system, reducing the stigma, and making 
this information available through the public is going to 
reduce the concerns that aircrew have.
    Mr. Grothman. Could you just give me a little idea of the 
degree to which reports in the past are not made public right 
now?
    Mr. Graves. Well, I do not think there has been a proper 
reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report 
them. So, to answer your question, I think there is a dearth of 
data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to 
this time.
    Mr. Grothman. Could you tell me why you believe it is
    --kind of to play the devil's advocate, a reason why some 
of this stuff should not be available to the public?
    Mr. Graves. There is certainly some national security 
concerns when we use our advanced sensors in our tactical jets 
to be able to identify these objects.
    However, there is no reason that the objects themselves 
would be classified. I would be curious to see how the security 
classification guideline actually spells out the different 
nuances of how this topic is classified from the perspective of 
UAP, not national security.
    Mr. Grothman. I will give you a followup on that. Assuming 
that there are reasons why not all it should be made public, 
this has been around for a long period of time. Can you think 
of--can any of the three of you think of any reason why 
anything related to UAPs, say, 15 years and back should not be 
immediately made public?
    Mr. Grusch. I think one of it is acknowledging a 
vulnerability both from a collection and I will just say, you 
know, a countermeasure perspective. So, it is a nut we have not 
cracked for many years.
    Mr. Grothman. Even, say, 20 years back. Is there any reason 
why when you go back that far things should not be made public?
    Mr. Grusch. Unless it shows a specific national security 
vulnerability as it relates to a weakness in a particular 
defense system.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Mr. Fravor, the Tic Tac incident that you 
were engaged occurred in 2004. What kind of reporting took 
place after that incident?
    Commander Fravor. None. We had a standard debrief where the 
backseaters went down to our carrier intel center and briefed 
would have happened and that was it. No one else talked to us 
and I was in the top 20 in the battle group. No one came. That 
captain was aware. The admiral was aware. Nothing was done.
    Mr. Grothman. Did your commanding officers provide any sort 
of justification?
    Commander Fravor. No, because I was the commanding officer 
of the squadron. So, no.
    Mr. Grothman. Was this incident the only UAP event that you 
encountered while you were a pilot?
    Commander Fravor. Yes, it was.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. This is for any one of you. Based on--
based off of each of your experiences and observations do you 
believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security?
    Commander Fravor. Yes, and here is why. The technology that 
we faced was far superior than anything that we had, and you 
could put that anywhere.
    If you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered 
it, you got it to work, you are talking something that can go 
into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do 
whatever it wants, and leave and there is nothing we can do 
about it. Nothing.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Each of you?
    Mr. Graves. I would also like to add from a commercial 
aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with 
uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of our 
professional actions.
    Identifying friend from foe is very important to us, and so 
when we have unidentified targets, and we continue to ignore 
those due to a stigma or fear of what it could be that is an 
opening that our adversaries can take advantage of.
    Mr. Grothman. What steps should be taken to better 
understand and respond to UAP encounters in the interest of 
national security?
    Mr. Graves. There needs to be a location where this 
information is centralized for processing and there needs to be 
a two-way communication loop so the operators on the front end 
have a feedback and can get best practices on how to process 
information, what to do, and to ensure that their reporting is 
being listened to. Right now, there is not a lot of back and 
forth.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Grusch, in your complaint to the 
intelligence community Inspector General, you claim that you 
believe information is being hidden. What kind of information 
do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain 
hidden?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, I can speak to that very briefly in an 
unclassified manner. As you know, the preponderance of my 
complaint was classified to the intelligence communities. Both 
material acquisition and exploitation activity, also baselining 
the UAPs but not sharing it with, you know, intelligence 
professionals that are actually doing step briefs to pilots, 
that kind of information.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Thank you very much. Now we will go to 
Mr. Garcia.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Again, thank you all for your 
service and for testifying today. I want to just talk about 
UAPs as it relates to what we are seeing and pilots' 
interaction with UAPs.
    Particularly, Mr. Graves, one of the, I think, concerns 
from Members of this Committee is this idea that pilots--there 
is no system to actually report UAPs and the stigma around 
pilots.
    And so can you just briefly--you mentioned that you are 
working with 30 pilots right now that have had encounters with 
UAPs. But you have also, I believe, discussed and know of many 
more pilots. This is just those that you are currently working 
with.
    Is that correct? Can you expand on that?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. I will break that down in two ways. 
First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the 
Eastern Seaboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period, anyone that 
had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects.
    So, there was a large number of my colleagues that were 
detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard. They were 
further correlating that information with their other onboard 
sensors and many of them also had their own eye sightings as 
well of these objects.
    Now, that was our personal firsthand experience at the 
time. Since then, as I have engaged this topic, others have 
reached out to me to share their experiences both on the 
military side as well as a commercial aviation side.
    On the military aviation side, veterans that have recently 
got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the 
objects we were seeing in 2014 and 2015 continued all the way 
to 2019, 2020, and beyond. And so, it became a generational 
issue for naval aviators on the Eastern Seaboard.
    This was something we are briefing to new students. This is 
something that was included in the notice to airmen to ensure 
that there was no accidents, and now with commercial aviators, 
they are reaching out because they are having somewhat similar 
experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do 
not have any reporting system that they can send this to.
    Mr. Garcia. And let me just add to--and both to Mr. Fravor 
as well as Mr. Graves, not having the system for reporting 
would you both agree that is harmful to not just our national 
security interest, but to understand this phenomena of what is 
happening with UAPs?
    Commander Fravor. I think it is actually--it is a travesty 
that we do not have a system to correlate this and actually 
investigate. You know, so if you took the East Coast, you know, 
there is coastal radars out there that monitor our air defense 
identification zone so out there 200 miles.
    They can track these, you know, so when you see them they 
could actually go and pull that data and get maneuvering. And 
instead of just having the airplanes, there is other data 
sources out there, and I have talked to other government 
officials on this.
    So, you need a centrally located repository that these 
reports go to. So, if you just stuck it in DoD, you would not 
get anything out of the Intelligence Committee because they 
have a tendency not to talk.
    But if you have got a central location where these reports 
are coming in, not just military but also commercial aviation 
because there is a lot of that going on, especially if you talk 
to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii over the Pacific, they 
see odd lights.
    So, I think you need to develop something that allows you a 
central point to collect the data in order to investigate.
    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Graves?
    Mr. Graves. I will concur with everything Mr. Fravor said. 
I will continue to say that the commercial pilots that have 
reached out to me through Americans for Safe Aerospace are 
doing so because they do not feel there is another way for them 
to report this safety issue.
    Mr. Garcia. And I think one of the clear outcomes of this 
hearing already is that there has to be a safe and transparent 
reporting process for pilots, both on the commercial side and 
the military side, to be able to report UAPs in a way that is 
also transparent but also understands the scope of our national 
security interests and what may be classified or not.
    But I think there has to be some sort of system and so that 
is something that I hope can be an outcome that this Committee 
can work on.
    Is there anything else just for the two of you briefly 
beyond this reporting system that you think that we can do as a 
government to encourage and facilitate more civilian reporting 
on this?
    Mr. Graves. I think we are doing it right now.
    Mr. Garcia. OK. Great.
    Mr. Graves. I think this hearing is going to show the 
American people that their government takes this topic 
seriously.
    Mr. Garcia. And how about civilians that may not be pilots? 
What kind of process could be in place for civilians who are 
not pilots who may have UAP encounters? Do either of you have 
any suggestions that could facilitate that?
    Mr. Graves. My recommendations would be to make that a 
sensor centric operation in order to make it as objective as 
possible.
    Mr. Garcia. OK. Sir? Mr. Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. I agree with Mr. Graves on that.
    Mr. Garcia. OK. Just briefly, I also just want to note 
for--particularly for the two pilots and then a question for 
Mr. Grusch.
    One of the things that I found fascinating in our 
discussion, Mr. Graves, last night as well is that you both 
described UAPs and formations and the way they are observed in 
space or in our air and the way that they move, essentially, 
ways in which current technology of our aircraft that we know 
of are unable to actually function or move.
    And so will you just for the public record again, once 
again, just briefly just either describe or note that aircraft 
that we witnessed, particularly by the 30 folks that you are 
working with, are essentially outside the scope of anything 
that we know of today and the technology we have today.
    Mr. Graves? Mr. Fravor?
    Mr. Graves. Yes. The objects that are being seen by 
commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are 
unexplainable due to our current understanding of our 
technology and our capabilities as a country, and that applies 
for the military as well.
    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. Yes, I concur with that. We have nothing 
that can stop in midair and go the other direction nor do we 
have anything that can, like in our situation, come down from 
space, hang out for 3 hours and go back up.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you. My last question--and sometimes--I 
know that you have also said some of these answers in the past, 
but we are trying to get them on the public record as well, 
which is really important.
    Mr. Grusch, finally, do you believe that our government is 
in possession of UAPs?
    Mr. Grusch. Absolutely, based on interviewing over 40 
witnesses over 4 years.
    Mr. Garcia. And where?
    Mr. Grusch. I know the exact locations and those locations 
were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the 
intelligence committees. I actually had the people with the 
firsthand knowledge provide a protected disclosure to the 
Inspector General.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you.
    And, Mr. Chairman, I would just say that I think that these 
questions are important questions and I look forward to being 
involved in the process to get those answered. I know there 
will be a lot of questions from other Committee Members.
    So, I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. We will go to Mr. Burchett 
himself.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. 
Garcia. I would like to have you on the--my legislation to do 
just that on the reporting and we will get together on that. 
Maybe you can be my co-sponsor on that. That would be really 
cool. Thank you for those great questions.
    Mr. Graves, again, I would like to know how do you know 
that these were not our aircraft?
    Mr. Graves. Some of the behaviors that we saw in our 
working area, we would see these objects being at 0.0 Mach
    --that is zero airspeed--over certain pieces of the ground. 
So, what that means just like a river if you throw a bobber in 
it is going to float downstream.
    These objects were staying completely stationary in 
category four hurricane winds. These same objects would then 
accelerate to supersonic speeds--1.1, 1.2 Mach--and they would 
do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we do not--I do 
not have an explanation for.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Have you spoken to commercial and 
military pilots that have seen these off of our East Coast?
    Mr. Graves. I have.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Mr. Fravor, I noticed that in the Tic Tac 
video--it is Tic Tac like the candy, not TikTok like the 
Chinese Communist app.
    Commander Fravor. That is correct.
    Mr. Burchett. Yes, sir. I just want to make that--because 
my daughter corrected me on that and called me a Boomer and 
said, hey, Boomer, and I said, no, baby, it is Tic Tac like the 
candy. You are going to have to just look it up.
    And but I would also like to say today is a day of many 
firsts. It is a miracle that we are having this meeting and it 
is also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for 9 years 
today. Today is my anniversary. So, I want to tell my wife 
happy anniversary and that I love her very much.
    As she likes to say, this 9 years have been the best 2 
years of her life.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Burchett. So, thank you.
    Mr. Fravor, what astonished you the most about the flight 
capabilities of these Tic Tac, very briefly?
    Commander Fravor. The performance. Absolute performance. It 
was----
    Mr. Burchett. And you are not aware of any other objects 
that anybody in the world has in this world that has those 
capabilities?
    Commander Fravor. No. I think it is far beyond, actually, 
our material science that we currently possess.
    Mr. Burchett. Are you aware of any other reconnaissance 
platforms have tracked or recorded the Tic Tac's maneuvers, 
maybe the NORAD system or any of the others?
    Commander Fravor. I am not.
    Mr. Burchett. OK.
    Mr. Grusch, thank you for being here, brother, and thank 
you all very much.
    Have you faced any retaliation or reprisals for any of your 
testimony or anything on these lines?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I have to be careful what I say in detail 
because there is an open whistleblower reprisal investigation 
on my behalf, and I do not want to compromise that 
investigation by providing anything that may help provide 
somebody information.
    But it was very brutal and very unfortunate. Some of the 
tactics they used to hurt me both professionally and 
personally, to be quite frank. Yes.
    Mr. Burchett. It is very unfortunate. As they say, when you 
are over the target that is when they do the most firing at 
you. Do you have any personal knowledge of people who have been 
harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these 
extraterrestrial technology?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, personally.
    Mr. Burchett. Have you heard--have anyone been murdered 
that you would--that you know of or have heard of, I guess?
    Mr. Grusch. I have to be careful asking that question. I 
directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate 
authorities.
    Mr. Burchett. Maybe in a--if we could get in a confidential 
area, a SCIF, we could talk about that. But unfortunately, we 
were denied access to the SCIF and that is very unfortunate in 
this scenario.
    Mr. Fravor, do you believe that you witnessed an additional 
object under the water in relation to your encounter?
    Commander Fravor. I will say we did not see an object. 
There was something there to cause the whitewater and when we 
turned around it was gone. So, there was something there that 
obviously moved.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. It was not the same object, though, that 
you were looking at, correct?
    Commander Fravor. No. We actually joked that the Tic Tac 
was communicating with something when we came back and--because 
the whitewater disappeared.
    Mr. Burchett. We were--in another instance--were told about 
the capabilities of a jamming during viewing of some--when 
there were some people chasing some of these objects. Did you 
experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or 
weapons system?
    Commander Fravor. My crew that launched after we landed 
experienced significant jamming to the APG-73 radar, which was 
what we had on board, which is a mechanically scan very high-
end system prior to the APG-79 and, yes, it did pretty much 
everything you could do--range, velocity, aspect--and then it 
split the lock, then the targeting pod is passive. That is what 
we were able to get the video on.
    Mr. Burchett. I am about to run out of time. But are you 
aware of any of our enemies that have that capability?
    Commander Fravor. No.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. I would also like to note for the record 
that, like George Knapp, Breaking Area 51, he is the reason I 
knew about that, and the reason I know about the Tic Tacs is 
because Leslie Keane from a New York Times article and I would 
encourage everybody to read that.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back to you no time.
    Mr. Grothman. Very good. Mr. Raskin?
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Graves, you reported UAP encounters during training 
flights, I think, and have since come forward to warn the 
Pentagon that these encounters may be putting pilots at risk. 
My first question is, you have identified these as taking place 
on the East Coast--is it just on the East Coast where these 
encounters have been reported?
    Mr. Graves. No. Since the events initially occurred, I have 
learned that the objects have been detected, essentially, where 
all operations--our Navy operations are being conducted across 
the world and that is from the All-Domain Anomaly Resolutions 
Office reporting.
    Mr. Raskin. Can you describe your experience after you 
decided to come forward and go public with your experience?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. Like many others in 2017, I saw the 
New York Times article come out as well and for me it was 
special because I recognized the voices on the video. I 
recognize the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken. I 
had seen it when it was debriefed.
    And so that was--kind of shook me because I realized that 
this problem was still ongoing and so I reached out to 
colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was 
still a safety risk that they were dealing with, that they had 
essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this 
conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to 
move the conversation forward myself.
    Mr. Raskin. Are there common characteristics to the UAPs 
that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe 
what the convergence of descriptions is?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. We were primarily seeing dark gray 
or black cubes inside of a clear sphere.
    Mr. Raskin. I am sorry. Dark gray or black cubes?
    Mr. Graves. Yes, inside of a clear sphere where the apex or 
tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere, and 
that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to 
gain a visual tally of these objects. That occurred over almost 
8 years and as far as I know is still occurring.
    Mr. Raskin. So, I take it that you are arguing what we need 
is real transparency and a reporting system so we can get some 
clarity on what is going on out there because there are many 
pilots in your situation. But we should have a way of 
developing a systematic inventory of all of such encounters. Is 
that right?
    Mr. Graves. Yes, and I think we need both transparency and 
the reporting. We have the reporting, but we need to make sure 
that information can be promulgated to commercial aviation as 
well as the rest of the populace.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Grusch, what about you? What was your 
experience after you came forward?
    Mr. Grusch. Well, it has only been about 2 months or so. 
So, I guess my experience has been overwhelming support from 
former colleagues of mine that have, you know, privately 
messaged me and I do appreciate that.
    But I do have knowledge of active planned reprisal activity 
against myself, and other colleagues and it is very, very 
upsetting to me.
    Mr. Raskin. Coming from where?
    Mr. Grusch. Certain senior leadership at previous agencies 
I was associated with and that is all I will say publicly. But 
I can provide more details in a closed environment.
    Mr. Raskin. OK. Well, I hope you understand that there 
would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify, 
demonize, or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses 
and people who are telling the truth from their perspective.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. There were certain colleagues of mine that 
were brutally administratively attacked, and it actually makes 
me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-
workers and actually superiors of mine over the last 3 years.
    Mr. Raskin. How do you account for that response? That 
seems like a bizarre response.
    Mr. Grusch. I call it administrative terrorism. That is 
their quiver--their tool in the toolbox to silence people, 
especially, you know, career government service cares about 
their career, cares about their clearance, their reputation to 
climb the ladder, and when you threaten that flow--career 
path--a lot of people back off. But I am here to represent 
those people. So----
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Fravor, what about you? What has your 
experience been since you have come forward with your 
perspective on this?
    Commander Fravor. Actually, I have been treated very well 
and the six people that were involved, myself included, all of 
them have or will be retiring from the military as 05s, 06s, 
and all my friends that are very senior, three and four stars, 
I have talked to them. They believe. They understand there is a 
problem. But no, I was actually treated really well.
    Mr. Raskin. And what is your general interpretation of 
these phenomena or what is your current thinking of trying to 
make sense of them?
    Commander Fravor. Well, I will say, you know, I am not like 
a UFO fanatic. It is not me. But I will tell you that what we 
saw with four sets of eyes over a 5-minute period still--there 
is nothing--we have nothing close to it. It was amazing to see. 
I told my buddy, I wanted to fly it. But that is--just an 
incredible technology.
    Mr. Raskin. All right. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I 
yield back to you.
    Mr. Grothman. Thanks. On to Ms. Luna.
    Ms. Luna. Mr. Grusch, in speaking to you yesterday, I just 
wanted to followup on Representative Raskin's questions. In the 
last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused 
you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, personally. Yes.
    Ms. Luna. I just want everyone to note that he is coming 
forward in fear of his life to put in perspective if they were 
really not scared about this information coming out why would 
someone be intimidated like that.
    To your knowledge, are NHIs working with adversarial 
foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or 
back engineering programs?
    Mr. Grusch. I do not have data on that. I am not sure.
    Ms. Luna. Have you heard or you had people come forward to 
present that evidence?
    Mr. Grusch. Not that particular evidence that you just 
espoused.
    Ms. Luna. OK. On the 19th of April, Dr. Kirkpatrick, head 
of AARO, had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. 
You also stated that you had--in your interview that you 
briefed him on information that you were uncovering but that he 
did not followup with you. Were the items that you divulged to 
him pertinent to national security?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. Him and I had a classified conversation in 
April 2022 before he took over AARO in July 2022 and I provided 
him some concerns I had.
    Ms. Luna. Do you know why he might not have followed up 
with you?
    Mr. Grusch. Unfortunately, I cannot read his mind. I wish 
he did. I was happy to give sage counsel to him on where to 
look when he took the helm of AARO.
    Ms. Luna. OK. And then my last question for you before I 
move to Mr. Graves is you received prior approval from the 
Defense Department to speak on certain issues, correct?
    Mr. Grusch. Correct, through DODSR--DoD Prepublication and 
Security Review--and I just want to remind the public they are 
just looking from a security perspective. These are my own 
personal views and opinions, not the Department's.
    Ms. Luna. OK. I am asking that, though, mainly because I 
think that there are many people that would like to discredit 
you. So, it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your 
testimony.
    Mr. Grusch. I am required by law to do that as a former 
intelligence officer, or I go to jail for revealing classified 
information.
    Ms. Luna. Yes, we do not want you to go to jail.
    My next question would actually be for Mr. Graves. Can you 
please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at 
Vandenberg Air Force Base?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. In the 2003 timeframe, a large group 
of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch 
facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a 
very large 100-yard sighted red square approach the base from 
the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch 
facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so 
before darting off over the mountains.
    There was a similar event within 24 hours, later in the 
evening. This was a morning event, I believe 8:45 in the 
morning. Later in the evening, post sunset, there were reports 
of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors.
    These objects were approaching some of the security guards 
at rapid speeds before darting off, and this is information 
that was received through one of the witnesses that have 
approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace.
    Ms. Luna. Was this documented in any official form whether 
it was a police blotter?
    Mr. Graves. Yes. They had official documentation and 
records from the event that the witness held over the years.
    Ms. Luna. And I am not going to ask you to do it right now 
for time reasons, but you would be able to sketch what was 
witnessed, correct? And you have--have you seen that before on 
any other equipment and/or during your flight time?
    Mr. Graves. I have not seen what they have described. This 
object was estimated to be almost the size of a football field 
and I have not seen anything personally that large.
    Ms. Luna. OK. And then another question on followup 
referencing the Gimbal video Go Fast incident. Can you just 
clarify? Because to our understanding the footage was actually 
cutoff at a certain point.
    But what happens at the end of that video, just for those 
Americans specifically that are wanting to know about the rest 
of that footage?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. There was some uncertainty or, you 
know, instability with the object. It seemed to rock a bit, and 
that is the last I had seen of the video. Much of the data that 
I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that 
would provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the 
fleet of objects that were operating nearby.
    Ms. Luna. OK. And the followup, in regard to the recording 
procedures that Mr. Garcia had addressed on as well as 
Representative Burchett, with the FAA, to your understanding, 
pilots that are seeing this--commercial airline pilots--are 
they receiving cease and desist letters from corporations for 
coming forward with information in regard to safety for 
potential airline passengers?
    Mr. Graves. I have been made privy to conversations with 
commercial aviators who have received cease and desist orders.
    Ms. Luna. So, the American public should know that 
corporations are putting their own reputations on the--not the 
line but ahead of the safety of the American people, and I 
think would you agree with that statement?
    Mr. Graves. It appears so.
    Ms. Luna. OK. I guess this would be my last--oh, I am out 
of time. I yield. I will be back.
    Mr. Grothman. Good. Mr. Moskowitz?
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Gentlemen, let us talk about the laws of physics for a 
second.
    Mr. Graves and Commander Fravor, I heard you talk about 
speed. When those objects broke the sound barrier, did they 
make a sonic boom?
    Commander Fravor. I was in a jet. You cannot hear anything. 
It is kind of loud in there.
    Mr. Graves. Yes. You are not able to actually personally 
tell within the vehicle. I will say the objects that we were 
seeing they were spherical, and they were observed up to Mach 
2, which is a very nonaerodynamic shape.
    Mr. Moskowitz. What about G forces? Let us talk about G 
forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those G forces 
with known technology today?
    Mr. Graves. No.
    Commander Fravor. No, not for the acceleration rates that 
we observed.
    Mr. Moskowitz. OK. What about what they looked like? How 
close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section? 
And what I mean is, obviously, the jets you are flying have all 
those things. Did these objects have those?
    Mr. Graves. I did not have the detail to be able to tell 
that.
    Commander Fravor. So, we got within a half mile of the Tic 
Tac, which people say that is pretty far, but in airplanes that 
is actually relatively close. No, it was perfectly white, 
smooth, no windows, although when we did take the original FLIR 
video that is out there when you put it on a big screen it 
actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of 
it. But other than that, no windows, no seams, no nothing.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Mr. Grusch, as a result of your previous 
government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge 
or have direct knowledge yourself of nonhuman origin craft?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I personally interviewed those 
individuals.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Mr. Grusch, as a result of your previous 
government work have you met with people with direct knowledge 
or have direct knowledge yourself about ATs--advanced 
technologies--that the U.S. Government has?
    Mr. Grusch. Based on conventional advanced tech I was 
briefed to the preponderance of the Defense Department's both 
space and aerospace compartmented programs. Yes.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Do you have knowledge, or do you have reason 
to believe, that there are programs in the advanced tech space 
that are unsanctioned?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, I do.
    Mr. Moskowitz. OK. And when you say that they are above 
congressional oversight what do you mean?
    Mr. Grusch. A complicated question. So, there is, you know, 
some--I would call it abuse here. So, congressional oversight 
of conventional Special Access Programs--and I will use Title 
10, DoD as an example, right.
    So, 10 U.S. Code Section 119 discusses congressional 
oversight of SAPs, discusses the DEP/SecDef's ability to waive 
congressional reporting. However, the Gang of 8 is at least 
supposed to be notified if a--you know, a waived or a waive 
bigoted unacknowledged SAP is created and that is public law.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Well, so then how does--I mean, I do not 
want to cut you off, but how does a program like that get 
funded?
    Mr. Grusch. I will give you generalities. I can get very 
specific in a closed session. But misappropriation of funds and 
self-fund.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Does that mean that there is money in the 
budget that is set to go to a program, but it does not, and it 
goes to something else?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I have specific knowledge of that. Yes.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Do you think U.S. corporations are 
overcharging for certain tech they are selling to the U.S. 
Government and that additional money is going to programs?
    Mr. Grusch. Correct, through something called IR&D.
    Mr. Moskowitz. OK. Satellite imagery--let us talk about 
satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place, some 
that we are aware of and many that we are not aware of, right. 
We are taking pictures of everything at every point and second.
    Mr. Grusch, are you aware--do you have direct knowledge, or 
have you talked to people with direct knowledge, that there are 
satellite imagery of these events?
    Mr. Grusch. That was one of my primary tasks at NGA since 
we process, exploit, and disseminate that kind of information. 
I have seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding--
and, of course, I left NGA in April so that is my information 
cutoff date.
    But I personally review both what we call overhead 
collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that 
were--I could not even explain prosaically, and I have a degree 
in physics, by the way, as well. And I had--I am aware that you 
guys have not seen these reports, unfortunately and I do not 
know why.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Do you have direct knowledge, or have you 
spoken to people with direct knowledge, that this imagery 
applies to crash sites--crash imagery?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot discuss that in an open session.
    Mr. Moskowitz. OK. Do you have any information that the 
U.S. Government is involved in a disinformation campaign to 
deny the existence of certain UAPs?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot go beyond what I have already stated 
publicly in my News Nation interview because it touches other 
sensitivities.
    Mr. Moskowitz. OK. I will yield the balance of my time 
back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Ms. Foxx?
    Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our 
witnesses for being here today.
    Mr. Grusch, in your sworn testimony you state that the U.S. 
Government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft 
and other UAP-related artifacts. You go so far as to state that 
the U.S. is in possession of, quote, ``nonhuman spacecraft,'' 
end quote, and that some of these artifacts have circulated 
with defense contractors. Several other former military and 
intelligence officials have come forward with similar 
allegations albeit in nonpublic settings.
    However, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, the Director of AARO, 
previously testified before Congress that there has been, and I 
quote, ``no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial 
activity'' or of, quote, ``off-world technology brought to the 
attention of the office.''
    To your knowledge, is that statement correct?
    Mr. Grusch. It is not accurate. I believe Dr. Kirkpatrick 
mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to AARO 
thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to AARO 
that I also interviewed.
    Ms. Foxx. OK.
    Mr. Grusch. And I know what they provided Dr. Kirkpatrick 
and their team.
    Ms. Foxx. OK.
    Mr. Grusch. I was able to evaluate that information.
    Ms. Foxx. OK. I need to go on.
    Mr. Grusch. Sure.
    Ms. Foxx. But my understanding--this--his statement is 
accurate. Came from a direct quote, and this contradiction is a 
perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our 
government.
    And for another example, look no further than the pitiful 
response to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year. 
You may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the 
balloon was first spotted over Montana 4 days after it first 
entered U.S. airspace over Alaska.
    The Biden Administration's initial inability to address the 
object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments. After 
news of the balloon reached the mainstream media, we were 
assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security.
    However, after the balloon was allowed to transit the 
entire continental United States, fighter jets were scrambled 
off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down. This flip 
flopping and obfuscation caused needless confusion, fear, and 
panic across the country.
    It is my hope, Mr. Chairman, that this sort of confusion 
will not be repeated. We should investigate the extent to which 
elements of our government possess or do not possess 
information that is of critical value to the American people.
    We owe it to the citizens of this Nation to make sure that 
our government is transparent and accountable. We must make 
sure that our government provides answers and Congress must do 
its duty to solicit those answers.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Yes. Mr. Frost?
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    In 2022, NASA announced that it was commissioning an 
independent study team to examine UAPs. The NASA team is 
comprised of scientists across different fields as well as 
former astronauts and pilots.
    In May, the independent study team held its first public 
meeting, which included the perspectives from NASA senior 
leaders as well as perspectives from the Department of Defense 
and intelligence agencies. The NASA study team is also expected 
to release its first report pretty soon and I think it is safe 
to say that we all eagerly await its results.
    Mr. Graves, how might NASA's research influence the 
commercial industry regarding safety and UAP?
    Mr. Graves. I think NASA has a big role to play as far as 
commercial aviation safety and it is one of their original 
charges as an organization.
    One of the recommendations that have been put forward is to 
utilize their existing Aviation Safety Reporting System to 
serve as a short-term fill and trusted platform for pilots that 
want to report on UAP. It also has built-in analytics 
capability and is funded by Congress.
    Mr. Frost. Gotcha. And also, Mr. Graves, are there any 
other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research on 
UAPs and, if so, how so?
    Mr. Graves. Well, I think there is a large swath of 
commercial capabilities that could be brought to bear on this 
topic from space-based or ground-based sensor systems that are 
available open source or through commercial marketplaces, and I 
think NASA's work, as they work to identify and highlight 
specific parameters that can be found, we can take that 
information and promulgate this through the public sector so 
that we can have more open conversation about what we are 
seeing.
    Mr. Frost. You know, in 2020 the Department of Defense 
released several videos of UAPs including Mr. Fravor's 
experience, U.S. Navy pilots that recorded footage. In 2021, 
the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a 
preliminary report on UAP events.
    NASA Administrator Bill Nelson stated that NASA would begin 
to investigate these events. In fact, I sit on the Science, 
Space and Technology Committee and when we were doing a hearing 
with the NASA Administrator, Bill Nelson, I asked, you know, 
why NASA needed to be fully funded.
    And there were many great reasons, but one of them was 
actually--had to do with UAPs. He actually mentioned, you know, 
is there life out there? I do not know. And so, either way 
these actions ultimately led NASA to assemble the independent 
study team that I mentioned earlier.
    Also, in 2021 Harvard University stood up the Galileo 
Project to research and examine the origins of UAP. So, it 
seems like both, you know, from NASA and in the higher 
education community because of the work that you all have done 
and people standing up, you know, I think we are seeing some of 
that stigma slowly going away.
    Mr. Fravor, do you believe that military pilots feeling 
empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly impacted 
the scientific community's research goals on this topic?
    Commander Fravor. I would say yes. I would say that, you 
know, starting in 2017 when it actually came out, it took that 
stigma away. I mean, I have talked to multiple Senators who 
said prior to that if you would have mentioned UAP, you would 
have been laughed off the Hill and now we are sitting here 
today for a public testimony on what is actually going on. You 
know, I am hoping that this curve will be more of an 
exponential and we will get more and more transparent to the 
level that we can.
    Mr. Frost. I mean, it is important. I could not imagine--
you know, I am not a pilot, but I used to fly gliders in Civil 
Air Patrol.
    Commander Fravor. A pilot?
    Mr. Frost. And so, either way, I mean, I could not imagine, 
you know, being in the glider and seeing something and then not 
feeling like I had the agency to talk about it.
    Mr. Graves, can you discuss the importance of seeking 
scientists to sit on your advisory board?
    Mr. Graves. Absolutely. I think, ultimately, this is going 
to be a scientific problem, and not only that, it is also an 
engineering problem. I have been working with the American 
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics to help them stand up 
a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering 
prowess into this problem.
    And so, yes, very much I think this is an engineering and 
scientific problem as much as a national security problem.
    Mr. Frost. And how might Congress help to facilitate 
partnerships between the scientific community and the UAP focus 
groups within government?
    Mr. Graves. Well, I think one of the things they can do is 
to have these types of hearings to communicate to the public 
that this is a topic of interest.
    I think that there is a pseudo market, if you will, of 
interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this 
topic and we are seeing that start to grow now. So, I think 
continued conversation and reduction of stigma is going to 
allow that to flourish and allow answers to help generate 
themselves.
    Mr. Frost. A hundred percent. Well, thank you all for being 
here. Thank you for your work. I think it is important that we 
keep our top scientific minds focused on this issue and look 
for ways to increase collaboration. Thank you so much. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Comer?
    Mr. Comer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me say I want to 
thank you for having this hearing and I want to thank Mr. 
Burchett and Ms. Luna for leading this hearing. And with that, 
I yield my 5 minutes to Mr. Burchett.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to direct 
this, I believe, to Mr. Grusch. But if any of you all feel like 
you need to jump in just jump right in. We are good.
    Has the U.S. Government become aware of actual evidence of 
extraterrestrial or otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence 
and, if so, when do you think this first occurred?
    Mr. Grusch. I like to use the term nonhuman. I do not like 
to denote origin. Keeps the aperture open both scientifically. 
Certainly, like I have discussed publicly, previously 1930's.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Can you give me the names and titles of 
the people with direct firsthand knowledge and access to some 
of this crash retrieval--some of these crash retrieval programs 
and maybe which facilities, military bases, that would--the 
recovered material would be in?
    And I know a lot of Congress talked about we are going to 
go to Area 51 and, you know, there is nothing there anymore 
anyway. It is just--you know, and we move like a glacier, as 
soon as we announce it, I am sure the moving vans have pulled 
up. But please?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot discuss that publicly, but I did 
provide that information both to the intel committees and the 
Inspector General.
    Mr. Burchett. And we could get that in the SCIF if we were 
allowed to get in a SCIF with you? Would that be probably what 
you would think?
    Mr. Grusch. Sure, if you had the appropriate accesses. Yes.
    Mr. Burchett. What Special Access Programs cover this 
information and how is it possible that they have evaded 
oversight for so long?
    Mr. Grusch. I do know the names. Once again, I cannot 
discuss that publicly in how they have evaded oversight. In a 
closed setting, I can tell you the specific tradecraft used.
    Mr. Burchett. All right. When do you think those programs 
began and who authorized them?
    Mr. Grusch. I do know a lot of that information, but that 
is something I can discuss publicly because of sensitivities.
    Mr. Burchett. All right. If any of you all want to jump in 
on any of this, you are more than welcome to.
    What level of security clearance is required to fully 
access these programs?
    Mr. Grusch. Well, anybody who has----
    Mr. Burchett. And I say that because myself, Representative 
Gaetz and Representative Luna were basically turned away at one 
point at Eglin. So, please go right ahead.
    Mr. Grusch. Certainly, a difference between Member access 
and, say, somebody like me, but anybody who has a, you know, 
TS/SCI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria. The access 
adjudicative authority should be able to grant you access.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Burchett, if you will yield.
    So, just to be--put a fine point on that there is nothing 
that you are aware of that is above Special Access Program 
classification?
    Mr. Grusch. It is a misnomer that there is anything 
actually above top secret. Executive Order 13526 delineates the 
classification levels.
    Mr. Gaetz. Right. But I draw upon that because we can have 
access to those programs and so the notion that we are not 
being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle 
memory here in Congress.
    Thank you, Mr. Burchett. I will yield back to you.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Gaetz.
    Along those lines, Title 10--you may not know this or not, 
but Title 10 and Title 50 authorization they seem to say they 
are inefficient. So, who gets to decide this, in your opinion, 
in the past?
    Mr. Grusch. It is a group of career senior executive 
officials.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Are they government officials?
    Mr. Grusch. Both in and out.
    Mr. Burchett. Be what?
    Mr. Grusch. Both in and out of government and that is about 
as far as I can go there.
    Mr. Burchett. I got you. All right. Well, that leads to my 
next question. Which private corporations are directly involved 
in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in 
these programs, to your knowledge?
    I mean, we know--we audit the Pentagon every year and I 
have been here 5 years and they fail the daggum thing every 
year. Lose over a billion dollars a year, we think, and I was 
told the Department of Defense maybe 60 percent of their assets 
are unaccounted for, whatever the heck that means. In the 
public sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So, tell 
me.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I know when I am a dollar off on my DTS 
travel voucher I get hammered, but seems like it does not work 
the other way, right.
    Mr. Burchett. If you sell over--if you sell over $600 worth 
of stuff on Ebay now you get a call from the IRS. So, please, 
what corporations?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I do not know the specific metrics toward 
the end of your question. The specific corporations I did 
provide to the committees in specific divisions and I spent 11= 
hours with both intel committees.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Has there been any--has there been an 
active U.S. Government disinformation campaign to deny the 
existence of unidentified aerial phenomena and, if so, why?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot go beyond what I have already espoused 
publicly about that.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. I have been told to ask you what that is 
and how to get it in the record.
    Mr. Grusch. Which----
    Ms. Luna. What you stated publicly in your interviews for 
the congressional Record.
    Mr. Grusch. If you reference my News Nation interview and I 
talked about a multi-decade, you know, campaign to 
disenfranchise public interest, basically.
    Ms. Luna. Thank you.
    Mr. Burchett. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I yield back 
negative 21 seconds.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez?
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
to our witnesses for coming here today. I do concur with the 
Ranking Member as well as several other Members here on this 
Committee that this is a committee for whistleblowers and for 
the protection of whistleblowers as well. So, we understand 
what you are putting on the table here and what you are putting 
on the line here. We thank you for that.
    Mr. Grusch, you sat on the unidentified anomalous 
phenomenon task force created in the 2020 NDAA, correct?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. There have been some things that have 
been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick 
up on.
    Mr. Graves, you mentioned specifically during the answer to 
one of your questions, you named Boeing contractors being 
engaged in an incident regarding this red cube about a football 
field wide.
    I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the 
interaction--or Mr. Grusch, either of you--the interactions 
between defense contractor companies and any UAP-related 
programs or activities.
    Mr. Graves. So, I will just say that the information about 
the contractors themselves were provided by a witness and I 
have no particular detail in that relationship.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Understood.
    Mr. Grusch?
    Mr. Grusch. The kind of general unclassed wave tops. 
Certainly, the contractors, you know, or the metal benders, so 
to speak, the ones actually doing specific performance on 
government contracts.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Are they required to issue any 
disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any 
reporting around this?
    Mr. Grusch. In terms of the contractors? Not that I am 
aware of.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. They do not. OK. Now, when it comes to 
notification that you had mentioned about IR&D programs, we 
have seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before 
through this Committee.
    I have seen it personally, and I have also seen the 
notification requirements to Congress abused. I am wondering, 
one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is--
at least from my vantage point, is that depending on what we 
are seeing is that there are no actual definitions or 
requirements for notification.
    Are there--what methods of notification did you observe? 
Like, when they say they notified Congress, how did they do 
that? Do you have insight into that?
    Mr. Grusch. For certain IR&D activities, I can only think 
of ones conventional in nature. Sometimes they flow through 
certain, I will just say SAP programs, that have cognizant 
authority over the Air Force or something and those are 
congressionally reported compartments.
    But IR&D is literally internal to the contractors. So, as 
long as it is money, either profits, private investment, et 
cetera, they do whatever they want.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And to put a finer point on it, when 
there is a requirement for any agency or company to--or any 
agency to notify Congress, do they contact the chairman of a 
committee? Do they get them on the phone specifically? Is this 
through an email to, hypothetically, a dead email box?
    Mr. Grusch. A lot of it comes through what they call the 
PPR--Periodic Program Review process--if it is, you know, a SAP 
or controlled access program equity, and then those go to the 
specific committees, whether it be the SASC, HASC----
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. OK. Thank you. I apologize. I just--my 
time is limited.
    Mr. Graves, one of your main concerns that the FAA 
currently does not have an official process to receive reports 
of UAP from pilots or others, correct?
    Mr. Graves. Correct.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And in your experience what data should 
the AARO program prioritize for potential collection? We have, 
you know, location, date, time, but are there other specific 
characteristics that should be included in these reports?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. I think that there is two categories 
that would be important. One would be kinematics and 
understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are 
moving, and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of 
being able to look at origin and destination after or before 
the incident as well as getting a better contextual 
understanding of how these objects are interacting with each 
other.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Now, because I only have a 
minute left--I apologize we only have 5 minutes today. But for 
the record, if you were me where would you look? Titles, 
programs, departments, regions--if you could just name 
anything. And I put that as an open question to the three of 
you.
    Mr. Grusch. I would be happy to give you that in a closed 
environment. I can tell you specifically.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Commander Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. I would say and I have told people that 
you have to know where to look. They are not going to divulge 
it to you because of the classification levels. But if you know 
where to look and who to talk to, which is exactly where Mr. 
Grusch can point you then you have them.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. OK. Mr. Graves?
    Mr. Graves. I was an operator, so I was depending on folks 
like Mr. Grusch to do that homework.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. OK. Thank you very much. I yield back to 
the Chair.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Biggs?
    Mr. Biggs. Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I thank the 
witnesses for being here today. I am over here.
    Thank you so much for being here. I want to get into the 
specifics here and the reason I am going to go this way is 
because you have talked a bit about what I would call 
misdirection by official U.S. Government with regard to UAPs, 
right, and so I am going to get to that in a second.
    But last week White House NSC spokesman, John Kirby, stated 
that UAPs are having an impact on our training ranges and needs 
to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with his 
statements? And that is for each of you.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Commander Fravor. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. Now, having said that, I am going to take 
you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because 
that is where I live.
    In 1997, we had the famous Phoenix Lights case. I do not 
know if any of you are familiar with that. There were two 
things that went along with that and the explanation was 
military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range.
    Do you know anything different other than the official 
explanation of those lights?
    Mr. Grusch. Only what is in the public vernacular about it. 
That was outside the scope of my duties.
    Mr. Biggs. And if we wanted to--just my question along with 
my colleague from New York, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, if we wanted to 
find out more about that where would we go to find the files 
and where--and who would we address? I know you are going to 
tell me we need to go to a SCIF so you can tell us in a SCIF.
    Commander Fravor. I could potentially give you a vector on 
that. That specific case I am not--I mean, I am familiar with 
it in terms of public, but I can give you a vector in a closed 
environment. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. That would be good. Thank you. So, if it is true 
that UAPs are having an impact on training ranges and this 
Administration considers it to be a legitimate issue what steps 
can Congress take to address training range impacts? And I say 
that having two very large training rages in my state.
    And so, we will start with Mr. Graves and go on down the 
panel.
    Mr. Graves. Some of the initial procedures have been 
implemented such as within the United States Navy that have a 
Range Fouler Report that gathers information from pilots. I 
understand that a service-wide reporting mechanism is still 
pending.
    However, that would be a great next step not only for 
gathering information but for showing the troops that is an 
acceptable topic and reducing the stigma.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. Please all of you continue.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. As a recipient of a lot of those training 
range reports sometimes we only get contextual, kind of oral 
reporting. It would be nice if they attached all sensor data 
and there is a system in place that can handle multiple 
classifications of data, and that is an issue with the F-35, 
right. That jet was never built to be an ISR platform, and it 
is a pain in the butt to get that data off. So----
    Mr. Biggs. Great. Thank you.
    Commander Fravor. Yes, I would agree with the previous two, 
being a user of those training ranges, that the data has to be 
out there. You have to acknowledge that you are seeing them and 
then you have to collect the data.
    Right now, you get the report. Someone says, I saw 
something, but no one collects the radar data to back it up and 
do research.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. Do you believe that the 2019 classification 
guidelines for UAPs interferes with the Federal Government's 
ability to be transparent with the American people and do you 
think we need to be more transparent with the American people?
    All of you, yes.
    Mr. Graves. I will say yes to that.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, I am familiar with the UAP Task Force 2019 
Security Classification guide. I think it is fair. I did 
actually help author that with the Director.
    Mr. Biggs. Uh-oh. You got a bias then.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. I will say--I will call it a lazy attitude 
about declassifying videos. I mean, I have seen some of the 
videos of, you know, the recent shoot down and I saw no reason 
that could not have been released as long as they mask, you 
know, some data. The American people deserve to see that 
imagery and full motion video.
    Commander Fravor. I would think--well, in my opinion, I 
will say things are over-classified. I know for a fact the 
video or the pictures that came out in the--I think it was the 
2020 report, that had the stuff off the East Coast that were 
taken with an iPhone off the East Coast.
    A buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he 
said they originally classified it TS/SCI, and my question then 
was what is TS/SCI about these? They are an iPhone literally 
off the vacapes. That is not TS/SCI.
    So, they are over classified, and as soon as they do that 
they go in a vault and then you all have to look for them.
    Mr. Biggs. So, with the over-classification that may be one 
way. Are there other ways that the DoD or intelligence agencies 
are keeping this information from the American people or even 
from Congress?
    Mr. Graves. I think part of that has been not encouraging 
reporting, if the problem is not something that can be 
measured, if it is not something that is going to be fixed.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. Very good. Well, I am out of time and I 
thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. First of all, without objection, 
Representative Nick Langworthy of New York is waived on the 
Subcommittee for purpose of questioning witnesses at today's 
Subcommittee hearing. And then we go to Mr. Burlison.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate you guys 
coming out today testifying.
    Look, I have been here for 6 months and I am pretty 
skeptical. I do not trust anything in this town and so--and I 
think that is because I am from Missouri. You have got to show 
me, right.
    With that being said, there has been a lot of things that 
have been said in the public, Mr. Grusch, and so I want to get 
down, if we can, to some specifics, right.
    So, at one point you had said that there has been harmful 
activity or aggressive activity. Has any of the activity been 
aggressive, been hostile, in your reports?
    Mr. Grusch. I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got 
physically injured and the activity----
    Mr. Burlison. By UAPs or by people within the Federal 
Government?
    Mr. Grusch. Both.
    Mr. Burlison. OK. So, there has been activity by alien or 
nonhuman technology and/or beings that has caused harm to 
humans?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot get into the specifics in an open 
environment, but at least the activity that I personally 
witnessed--and I have to be very careful here because you do 
not--you know, they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft, 
right.
    So, what I personally witnessed, myself and my wife, was 
very disturbing.
    Mr. Burlison. OK. One of my constituents actually sent this 
next question and I figured I would ask it since I have the 
same thought. You have said that U.S. has intact spacecraft. 
You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. 
Have you seen--have you seen the spacecraft?
    Mr. Grusch. I have to be careful to describe what I have 
seen firsthand and not in this environment. But I could answer 
that question behind closed doors.
    Mr. Burlison. Have you seen any of the bodies?
    Mr. Grusch. That is something I have not witnessed myself.
    Mr. Burlison. OK. And so with that being said, you know, 
the other statement that has been made that was intriguing to 
me because--and it is intriguing because my view has been that 
we are billions of light years away from any other system and 
the concept that an alien species that is technologically 
advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and 
somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes 
is something that I find a little bit farfetched.
    And that with that being said, you have mentioned that 
there is interdimensional potential. Could you expound on that?
    Mr. Grusch. To answer your first question and, you know, I 
am here as a fact witness and not an expert, but I will give 
you a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of 
espouse crashes.
    Regardless of, you know, your level of sentience, right--
you know, planes crash, cars crash, and a number of sorties, 
however high, a small percentage are going to end in, you know, 
mission failure, if you will, as we say in the Air Force.
    And then in terms of multidimensionality, that kind of 
thing, the framework that I am familiar with, for example, is 
something called the holographic principle both--it derives 
itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that 
is if you want to imagine a 3D object such as yourself casting 
a shadow onto a 2D surface that is the holographic principle.
    So, you can be projected--quasi projected from higher 
dimensional space to lower dimensional. It is a scientific 
trope that you can actually cross, literally, as far as I 
understand, but there is probably guys with Ph.Ds. that we 
could probably argue about that.
    Mr. Burlison. But you have not seen any documentation that 
that is what is occurring? It is a theory?
    Mr. Grusch. Only theoretical framework discussion.
    Mr. Burlison. OK. OK. Occam's Razor is that this--these 
aircrafts have they been identified that they are being 
produced by domestic, you know, military contractors? Is there 
any evidence that that is what is being recovered?
    Mr. Grusch. Not to my knowledge. Plus, the recoveries 
predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am 
waiving off. So----
    Mr. Burlison. So, would it be safe to say that there could 
be a scenario today where you have an aircraft that crashes 
because it has been involved in one program from one Federal 
agency and the--but the agency that retrieves it is not aware 
of that program and to them it appears alien in origin?
    Mr. Grusch. I mean, that is a hypothetical situation. I am 
not aware of any historical situation that would match that 
that you described.
    Mr. Burlison. You are not aware--it has not happened that 
you are aware of?
    Mr. Grusch. That I am aware of.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Gaetz?
    Mr. Gaetz. Several months ago my office received a 
protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating that 
there was a UAP incident that required my attention. I sought a 
briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman 
Burchett and Congresswoman Luna.
    We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by 
flight crew in this endeavor and to observe any radar signature 
as long as--as well as to meet with the flight crew. We were 
not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially we 
were not afforded access to images and to radar.
    Thereafter, we had a bit of a discussion about how 
authorities flow in the United States of America and we did see 
the image and we did meet with one member of the flight crew 
who took the image.
    The image was of something that I am not able to attach to 
any human capability either from the United States or from any 
of our adversaries and I am somewhat informed on the matter 
having served on the Armed Services Committee for 7 years, 
having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and advanced 
technologies for several years.
    When we spoke with the flight crew and when he showed us 
the photo that he had taken I asked why the video was not 
engaged--why we did not have a FLIR system that worked. Here is 
what he said.
    They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of 
Mexico and when you are on a test mission you are supposed to 
have clear airspace. Not supposed to be anything that shows up.
    And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond 
formation for which there is a radar sequence that I and I 
alone have observed in the U.S. Congress.
    One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation 
and sees a large floating, what I can only describe as an orb, 
again, like I said, not of any human capability that I am--that 
I am aware of.
    And when he approached he said that his radar went down. He 
said that his FLIR system malfunctioned and that he had to 
manually take this image from one of the lenses and it was not 
automated in collection as you would typically see in a test 
mission.
    So, I guess I will start with Commander Fravor. How should 
we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by 
our pilot had the capability of disarming a number of the 
sensor and collection systems on that craft?
    Commander Fravor. I think this goes to that national 
security side. You can go back through history of things 
showing up in certain areas and disabling our capabilities, 
which is disheartening, and for us, I mean, like I said, it 
completely disabled the radar on the aircraft when they tried 
to do it and the only way we could see it is passively, which 
is how he got that image.
    So, I think that is a concern on what are these doing, not 
only how do they operate but their capabilities inside to do 
things like this.
    Mr. Gaetz. And how should we think about four craft moving 
in a very clear formation equidistant from one another in a 
diamond? In all of the phenomenon, perhaps, Mr. Graves, that 
you have analyzed have we ever seen multiple craft in a single 
formation?
    Mr. Graves. I have one particular case and that was during 
the Gimbal incident. The recording on the AT FLIR system shows 
a single object that rotates.
    You hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not 
visible on the FLIR system and that was something that I 
witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the 
situational awareness page.
    I would like to add, however, Congressman, there is a small 
bit of anger, I would say, I would feel if those pilots are 
still facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they 
do not have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It 
just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an 
important issue for our pilots and for our Nation.
    Mr. Gaetz. It was stated explicitly to me by these test 
pilots that if you have a UAP experience the best thing you can 
do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any 
type of reporting, either above the surface or below the 
surface, does have a perceived consequence to these people and 
that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the 
truth.
    Mr. Chairman, I would observe that perhaps as we move 
forward from this hearing there are some obvious next steps. 
Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr. 
Grusch in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can 
get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that 
give us the information we need.
    Second, I would suggest that the radar images that were 
collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force 
Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual 
flight crew that we can actually validate be provided to the 
Committee, subpoenaed if necessary, so that we are able to 
track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a 
more fulsome way. That would be my recommendation humbly as a 
guest here of the fine Oversight Committee.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Ms. Mace?
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning to our 
witnesses who are testifying today. I want to thank each of you 
for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our 
national security.
    Earlier this year a Chinese spy balloon was shot down off 
the coast of my home state of South Carolina. Since the Roswell 
incident in 1947, many American have wondered about the dangers 
of unknown objects crisscrossing our skies. Whether these are 
UAPs or weather phenomena, advanced technology from American 
allied or enemy forces, or something more out of this world.
    So, my first question--I have several questions and I 
will--if we can just be quick on these first two. I am going to 
ask each of you the same question and then I will get to each 
of you individually.
    The first one, when you reported your experiences with a 
UAP did any of you face any repercussions with your superiors? 
Yes or no.
    Mr. Graves. No.
    Commander Fravor. No.
    Mr. Grusch. I have actually never seen anything personally, 
believe it or not.
    Ms. Mace. All right. And then do you believe there is an 
active disinformation campaign within our government to deny 
the existence of UAPs? Yes or no.
    Mr. Graves. I do not have an answer to that.
    Mr. Grusch. As previously stated publicly, yes.
    Commander Fravor. Previously with, like, Project Bluebook, 
yes, but currently I do not speak for the U.S. Government.
    Ms. Mace. OK. Thank you.
    I have a few questions for Mr. Graves. What percentage of 
UAP sightings, in your belief, go unreported by our pilots?
    Mr. Graves. This is an approximation based off of my 
personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I 
would estimate we are somewhere near 5 percent reporting, 
perhaps.
    Ms. Mace. So, like, 95 percent basically do not report 
seeing UAPs?
    Mr. Graves. That is just my personal estimate.
    Ms. Mace. In the incident off Virginia Beach, do you 
believe the Navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously 
after it was reported?
    Mr. Graves. Absolutely.
    Ms. Mace. A few questions for Mr. Fravor.
    As an expert naval aviator have you ever seen an object 
that looked and moved like the Tic Tac UAP?
    Commander Fravor. No.
    Ms. Mace. Did the Tic Tac UAP move in such a way that 
defied the laws of physics?
    Commander Fravor. The way we understand them, yes.
    Ms. Mace. Many dismiss UAP reports as classified weapons 
testing by our own government. But in your experience as a 
pilot does our government typically test advanced weapons 
systems right next to multimillion-dollar jets without 
informing our pilots?
    Commander Fravor. No. We have test ranges for that.
    Ms. Mace. It took over 15 years for your encounter with the 
Tic Tac to be declassified. Do you feel there was a good reason 
to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage?
    Commander Fravor. No. I just think it was ignored when it 
happened, and it just sat somewhere in a file. Never got 
reported.
    Ms. Mace. In a drawer. It happens a lot up here. Shocker.
    Mr. Grusch, a couple of questions for you too, sir, this 
morning. What percentage of UAPs do you feel are adequately 
investigated by the U.S. Government, of the 5 percent that are 
reported?
    Mr. Grusch. I can only speak for my personal leadership 
over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through 
that I could triage.
    Ms. Mace. Do you believe that officials at the highest 
levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully 
withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight 
authority?
    Mr. Grusch. There are certain elected leaders that had more 
information that--I am not sure what they have shared with 
certain Gang of 8 members or et cetera. But, certainly, I would 
not be surprised.
    Ms. Mace. OK. You say that the government is in possession 
of potentially nonhuman spacecraft. Based on your experience 
and extensive conversations with experts do you believe our 
government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials?
    Mr. Grusch. It is something I cannot discuss in a public 
setting.
    Ms. Mace. OK. And I cannot ask when you think this 
occurred. If you believe we have crashed craft, as stated 
earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this 
craft?
    Mr. Grusch. As I have stated publicly already in my News 
Nation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries. 
Yes.
    Ms. Mace. Were they, I guess, human or nonhuman biologics?
    Mr. Grusch. Nonhuman, and that was the assessment of people 
with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are 
currently still on the program.
    Ms. Mace. And was this documentary evidence, this video, 
photos, eyewitness? Like, how would that be determined?
    Mr. Grusch. The specific documentation I would have to talk 
to you in a SCIF about.
    Ms. Mace. Got you. OK.
    So--and you may or may not be able to answer my last 
question, and maybe we get into a SCIF at the next hearing that 
we have. But who in the government, either what agency, sub 
agency, what contractors, who should be called into the next 
hearing about UAPs either in a public setting or even in a 
private setting?
    And you probably cannot name names, but what agencies or 
organizations, contractors, et cetera, do we need to call in to 
get these questions answered whether it is about funding, what 
programs are happening, and what is out there?
    Mr. Grusch. I can give you a specific cooperative and 
hostile witness list of specific individuals that were in 
those.
    Ms. Mace. And how soon can we get that list?
    Mr. Grusch. I am happy to provide that to you after the 
hearing.
    Ms. Mace. Super. Thank you. And I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Now we have Mr. Langworthy. OK.
    Mr. Langworthy. Thank you very much. I would like to thank 
all of the witnesses for being here today to discuss this very 
unique topic and I would like to jump right into my questions, 
if you do not mind.
    Commander Fravor, can you briefly describe your background?
    Commander Fravor. Yes. I was an enlisted Marine, Naval 
Academy graduate, Navy, flew for 18 years. Got a Master's from 
University of Houston and I have worked in the private sector 
for the last what now, 19--16 years, 17 years. I do a lot of 
defense work.
    Mr. Langworthy. Really gold-plated credentials. Commander 
Fravor, we have all seen this floating Tic Tac video that you 
engaged with on November 14th, 2004. Can you briefly talk about 
why you were off the coast of San Diego that day?
    Commander Fravor. Yes. We were at a work up with all the 
battle groups. So, we integrate the ships with the carrier, the 
airwing with the carrier, and we start working.
    So, we were doing an air to air defense to hone not only 
our skills but those of the USS Princeton when they had been 
tracking them for 2 weeks. The problem was that there was never 
manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them and this 
was the first day and, unfortunately, we were the ones airborne 
and went and saw it.
    Mr. Langworthy. Do you remember the weather that day? Was 
it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the 
Pacific coast?
    Commander Fravor. It was actually--if you are familiar San 
Diego, it was a perfect day, light winds, no whitecaps, clear 
skies. Not a cloud. It was--for flying it was the best.
    Mr. Langworthy. Now, is it true that you saw, in your 
words, a 40-foot flying Tic Tac shaped object?
    Commander Fravor. That is correct. For some people that 
cannot--know what a Tic Tac is it is a giant flying propane 
tank.
    Mr. Langworthy. Did this object come up on radar or 
interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton?
    Commander Fravor. The Princeton tracked it. The Nimitz 
tracked it. The E2 tracked it. We never saw it on our radars. 
Our fire control radars never picked it up.
    The other airplane that took the video did get it on a 
radar. As soon as it tried to lock it, it jammed the radar, 
spit the lock and he rapidly switched over to the targeting 
pod, which you can do in the F-18.
    Mr. Langworthy. From what you saw that day and what you 
have seen on video did you see any source of propulsion from 
the flying object including on any potential thermal scans from 
your aircraft?
    Commander Fravor. No, there is none. There is no IR plume 
coming out and Chad, who took the video, went through all the 
EO, which is black and white TV and the I&R modes and there is 
no visual signs of propulsion. It is just sitting in space at 
20,000 feet.
    Mr. Langworthy. In your career have you ever seen a 
propulsion system that creates no thermal exhaust?
    Commander Fravor. No.
    Mr. Langworthy. Can you describe how the aircraft 
maneuvered?
    Commander Fravor. Abruptly, very determinant. It knew 
exactly what it was doing. It was aware of our presence and it 
had acceleration rates--I mean, it went from zero to matching 
our speed in no time at all.
    Mr. Langworthy. Now, if the fastest plane on Earth was 
trained to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable 
of doing that?
    Commander Fravor. No, not even close.
    Mr. Langworthy. And just to confirm, this object had no 
wings, correct?
    Commander Fravor. No wings.
    Mr. Langworthy. Now, was the aircraft that you were flying 
was it armed?
    Commander Fravor. No, and never felt threatened at all.
    Mr. Langworthy. If the aircraft was armed do you believe 
that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United 
States could have shot the Tic Tac down?
    Commander Fravor. I would say no, just on the performance. 
It would have just left in a split second.
    Mr. Langworthy. It looks like we have a problem here that 
needs further investigation.
    Commander Fravor. Yes.
    Mr. Langworthy. In your belief is this flying Tic Tac--I 
mean, is this--is it capable of being the product of any other 
nation on the Earth?
    Commander Fravor. No. I actually said--like I said earlier, 
I think it defies current material science and the ability to 
develop that much propulsion and I know there has been some 
physicists that have done calculations, which is beyond 
anything that we have.
    Mr. Langworthy. Well, either the United States has an 
adversary here in this world that we do not know or we really 
have some serious investigations to do. I really appreciate you 
being here. Is there anything else about the November 14th, 
2004, incident that you think is important for this Committee 
to know that you have not been asked here today?
    Commander Fravor. No. You know, it has been said it is 
probably the most credible UFO sighting in history, based on 
all the sensors that were tracking it and then for us to get 
visual. And to go against the naysayers that it is something on 
the screen or whatever, I mean, there is four sets of human 
eyeballs.
    We are all very credible. Of the six of us that were 
involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is 
going to do 20-plus years in the military in very responsible 
positions. I would say the world needs to know that. It is not 
a joke.
    Mr. Langworthy. Thank you very much for your testimony here 
today, for all of you. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Ogles?
    Mr. Ogles. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for 
being here and the courage it took to come forward and, again, 
the sacrifice that each of you have made.
    I serve on the National Security Subcommittee for the 
Financial Services Committee so I really want to stay in the 
national security lane, if I may.
    So, when we think about traditional adversaries and both us 
toward them and them toward us, you know, we probe their 
capabilities. We look for weaknesses and we collect that data, 
that reconnaissance, for--in the event we need it in the 
future.
    For each of you, yes or no question. Based off of your own 
experience or the data that you have been privy to is there any 
indication that these UAPs could be essentially collecting 
reconnaissance information?
    Mr. Graves?
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Grusch?
    Mr. Grusch. Fair assessment.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. It is very possible.
    Mr. Ogles. Again, in the national security vein, is it 
possible that these UAPs would be probing our capabilities, yes 
or no?
    Mr. Graves?
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Grusch?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. Definitely.
    Mr. Ogles. Is it possible that these UAPs are testing for 
vulnerabilities in our current systems?
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Commander Fravor. Possible.
    Mr. Ogles. Do you feel, based off of your experience and 
information that you have been privy to, that these UAPs 
provide an existential threat to the national security of the 
United States?
    Mr. Graves?
    Mr. Graves. Potentially.
    Mr. Grusch. Yes, sir, potentially.
    Commander Fravor. Same answer, potentially. I would say 
definitely potentially.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Graves and Fravor, in the event that your 
encounters had become hostile would you have--would you have 
had the capability to defend yourself, your crew, your 
aircraft?
    Mr. Graves. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Ogles. Sir?
    Mr. Grusch. No.
    Mr. Ogles. Based off of the information that you have been 
privy to is there any indication that these UAPs are interested 
in our nuclear technology and capabilities?
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Mr. Grusch. By external observation, sure, that could be a 
fair assessment. Yes.
    Commander Fravor. Yes.
    Mr. Ogles. Is there any indication the Department of Energy 
is involved in UAP data collection and housing?
    Mr. Graves. I do not have an answer.
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot confirm or deny that in a public 
setting.
    Mr. Ogles. Could you do it in a secure setting?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Fravor?
    Commander Fravor. No, I do not know.
    Mr. Ogles. Mr. Chairman, you know, I think I am the last 
Member to go. But there clearly is a threat to the national 
security of the United States of America. As Members of 
Congress, we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be 
aware of these activities so that, if appropriate, we take 
action.
    I would encourage the Chairman to demand that we have any 
and all, but in particular Mr. Grusch, talk to us in a SCIF and 
if that access is denied I will personally volunteer to 
initiate the Holman Rule against any personnel or any program 
or any agency that denies access to Congress.
    Mr. Chairman, with that, I will yield the remainder of my 
time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee, Mr. Burchett.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. 
Ogles, for the great questions, brother.
    Mr. Grusch, I might have asked this before but I want to 
make sure. Do you have any personal knowledge of someone who 
has possibly been injured working on legacy UAP reverse 
engineering?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. How were they injured? Was it
    --is it something like a radioactive type situation or 
something we did not understand? I have heard people talk about 
Havana syndrome type incidences. What was your recollection of 
that?
    Mr. Grusch. I cannot get into specifics, but you can 
imagine assessing an unknown unknown there is a lot of 
potentialities you cannot fully prepare for.
    Mr. Burchett. How do you think we ought to handle UAP 
whistleblower complaints like yours in the future?
    Mr. Grusch. Yes. There was some issue with mine. So, you 
know, PPD-19 process it goes to the intel committees either 
through PPD-19 or ICD 120.
    There is not a good way for the intelligence community 
Inspector General to provide that to other committees, and I 
asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate Armed 
Services Committee because there are Title 10 equities at play. 
But there was no smooth process to do so.
    Mr. Burchett. It is a trashcan. Are you aware of any 
individuals that are participating in reverse engineering 
programs for nonterrestrial craft?
    Mr. Grusch. Personally, yes.
    Mr. Burchett. Do you know any that would be willing to 
testify if there were protections for them?
    Mr. Grusch. Certainly, closed door and assurances that 
breaking their NDA they are not going to get administratively 
punished for so.
    Mr. Burchett. I yield, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. We are going to do something a 
little bit out of the ordinary here. We are going to give three 
people a chance at additional 3 minutes.
    So, Mr. Burchett, do you want to keep going?
    Mr. Burchett. Why don't you come back to me, Mr. Chairman? 
Ms. Luna, if she is on--is she on that list?
    Ms. Luna. I am on the special list.
    Mr. Grothman. Sure.
    Ms. Luna. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record 
an article by News Nation and it follows Mr. Grusch's full 
interview, for the record.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Luna. Thank you. Mr. Grusch, why is it that you refer 
to the phenomenon as nonhuman intelligence? Why deviate from 
the basis of extraterrestrial life?
    Mr. Grusch. I think the phenomenon is a very complex and I 
like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin.
    Ms. Luna. When you say specific origin are you referring--
can you elaborate on that for those that might not----
    Mr. Grusch. If it is a traditional extraterrestrial origin 
or something else that we do not quite understand from an 
either biological or astrophysics perspective. I just like to 
keep an open mind on what it could be.
    Ms. Luna. OK. And referring to your News Nation interview 
you had referenced specific treaties between governments. 
Article Three of the nuclear arms treaty with Russia identifies 
UAPs.
    It specifically mentions them. To your knowledge, are their 
safety measures in place with foreign governments or other 
superpowers to avoid an escalatory situation in the event that 
a UAP malevolent event occurs?
    Mr. Grusch. You are referring to actual--a public treaty in 
the U.N. register--it is funny you mentioned that--the 
agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak of nuclear 
war signed in 1971. Unclassified treaty publicly available, and 
if you cite the George Washington University National Security 
Archives you will find the declassified, in 2013, specific 
provisions and the specific red line flash message traffic with 
the specific codes pursuant to Article Three and Article--also 
situation two, which is in the previously classified NSA 
archive.
    What I would recommend--and I tried to get access but I got 
a wall of silence at the White House--was those specific 
incidents when those--message traffic was used. I think some 
scholarship on that would open the door to a further 
investigation using those publicly available information.
    Ms. Luna. Thank you. And then my last question with 51 
seconds remaining, you mentioned white collar crimes 
potentially being--taking place in regards to a cover up. Can 
you please elaborate?
    Mr. Grusch. I have concerns based on the interviews I 
conducted under my official duties of potential violations of 
the Federal Acquisition Regulations--the FAR.
    Ms. Luna. Thank you very much. Chairman, I yield the 
remainder of my time.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. We will go to Mr. Raskin for 3 minutes.
    Mr. Raskin. Thanks, Mr. Chair, and I thank the witnesses 
for their endurance and service today.
    Mr. Fravor, you have described your episode in detail now 
and you call it the most credible UFO sighting in history. I 
wonder was this the first time that you encountered a UFO or a 
UAP in 2004?
    Commander Fravor. Yes.
    Mr. Raskin. And what was your general attitude or 
perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened?
    Commander Fravor. I never felt that we were alone with all 
the planets out there. But I was not a UFO person. I was not 
watching History Channel and Mufon and all that.
    Mr. Raskin. And have you had experiences or encounters 
since that happened?
    Commander Fravor. No.
    Mr. Raskin. And so, have you formed any general conclusions 
about what you think you experienced then?
    Commander Fravor. Yes. I think what we experienced was, 
like I said, well beyond the material science and the 
capabilities that we had at the time, that we have currently, 
or that we are going to have in the next 10 to 20 years.
    Mr. Raskin. Very good.
    Mr. Grusch, you have been able to answer in great detail on 
certain questions and then other things you say you are not 
able to respond to. Can you just explain where you are drawing 
the line and what is the basis for that?
    Mr. Grusch. Based on my DODSR security review and what they 
have determined that is unclassified.
    Mr. Raskin. I see. So, you are answering any questions that 
just call upon your knowledge of unclassified questions but 
anything that relates to classified matters you are not 
commenting on in this context?
    Mr. Grusch. In an open session. But happy to participate in 
a closed session at the right level.
    Mr. Raskin. OK. And, Mr. Graves, you said that there are 
dozens of fellow pilots, military pilots. Are there also 
commercial pilots who have encountered the same kind of 
sightings that you described before?
    Mr. Graves. They are similar. Pilots--commercial pilots 
have less range and less sensors to be able to reach out and 
look for objects over wide swaths of airspace. And so pilots 
are seeing them. Commercial pilots are seeing them and they are 
typically closer and the range of what they are seeing is 
pretty large.
    Mr. Raskin. What is the most vivid concrete sighting with 
the naked eye of the objects that you described before, the 
cube-like objects?
    Mr. Graves. Certainly. I think the most vivid sighting of 
that would have been a near mid-air that we had at the entrance 
to our working area. One of these objects was completely 
stationary at the exact entrance to our working areas, not only 
geographically but also altitude.
    So, it was right where all the jets are going, essentially, 
on the Eastern Seaboard. The two aircraft flew within about 50 
feet of the object and that was a very close visual sighting.
    Mr. Raskin. And you were in one of the aircraft?
    Mr. Graves. I was not. I was there when the pilot landed. 
He canceled the mission after. I was there. He was in the ready 
room with all his gear on with his mouth open and I asked him 
what the problem was and he said he almost hit one of those 
darn things.
    Mr. Raskin. He said he was 50 feet away from it?
    Mr. Graves. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Raskin. And his description of the object was 
consistent with the description you gave us before?
    Mr. Graves. A dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear 
sphere.
    Mr. Raskin. Inside of a clear sphere?
    Mr. Graves. Yes.
    Mr. Raskin. And with no self-evident propulsion system?
    Mr. Graves. No wings. No IR energy coming off of the 
vehicle. Nothing tethering it to the ground, and that was 
primarily what we were experiencing out there.
    Mr. Raskin. I am over time. Thank you very much for your 
service and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Very good. Mr. Burchett?
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is for all 
three of you all--starting with Mr. Graves. Why did you come 
forward on this issue?
    Mr. Graves. I came forward because I felt that my 
colleagues did not have a way to mitigate the safety threat and 
I wanted to help them. I was trained as an aviation safety 
officer by the Navy and this seemed--it just felt right. I felt 
like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing 
with this.
    Mr. Burchett. Mr. Grusch?
    Mr. Grusch. Purely a sense of duty. My first swore an oath 
when I was a cadet 18 years ago and I still uphold that even 
out of uniform.
    Mr. Burchett. Commander?
    Commander Fravor. I was pestered by a friend, and I asked 
why and he said, you are the one person that they cannot 
discredit, and you will add credibility to the New York Times 
article. And so after about six times I said OK.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Burchett. This town is not made, unfortunately, by 
people like you all. We thank you. I do want to also thank the 
people in the audience and the people that are watching this 
that cannot be--people all over the world that have kept this 
issue alive.
    You have endured criticism and derogatory remarks, and we 
are trying to get to the bottom of it. So, God bless you all. 
Thank you all so much. We really appreciate you guys and gals.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Burchett. That is why we need term limits. You all keep 
clapping. Us politicians just keep talking.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Burchett. Let me ask you all, how can the public 
contribute to UAP reporting and what avenues you think are 
available to the public to report these sightings?
    Mr. Graves. Right now I do not think there is a lot of 
public options for the everyman to be able to report on this. I 
think even for professionals that have sensor data that are 
seeing these on a regular basis they are still hesitant to come 
forward.
    And so, for the general public I think encouraging the 
conversations that we are having today, looking for technology 
solutions that can be distributed so that objective data can be 
gathered is the first place to go.
    Mr. Burchett. Mr. Grusch?
    Mr. Grusch. I will just touch on the whistleblower side of 
it. I do encourage, you know, current and former military, 
intelligence community, and industry contractors to come 
forward in a legal way, either through the IC or DoD or 
whatever the cognizant IGs are to join me in this discussion.
    Mr. Burchett. Commander? And I guess I should say this for 
the record. My daddy was United States Marine Corps First 
Marine Division. So----
    Commander Fravor. Oorah.
    Mr. Burchett. Yes, sir. He was old school. Him and Chesty 
Puller on Peleliu. So thank you, brother.
    Commander Fravor. Wow.
    Mr. Burchett. I am not--I am not anything like my daddy. He 
was incredible. I am very mediocre, to say the least. But go 
ahead.
    Commander Fravor. You seem to be doing fine.
    Mr. Burchett. Yes.
    Commander Fravor. For me, you know, I was an accident 
investigator. So, the biggest thing that you learn, and I think 
that witnesses need to do is, one, do not try and make the fish 
bigger than it was. Stick to the facts.
    Write it down and do not speculate what you think it is 
because it will sway your decision. Just write the facts down. 
We can get all the facts together and we can start to 
investigate and get a real honest story instead of it was this 
big.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, and I want to thank everybody. We 
made history today. Mr. Chairman, I yield.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you much. Mr. Garcia?
    Mr. Garcia. I think--I know now we are going to be making 
some closing remarks and so I just want to just say a few 
things.
    First, to our witnesses, I want to thank all of you for 
being here with us today. I know that it takes a lot--a lot of 
courage. You are telling really important information to this 
Committee, and I just want to thank you also for your--all 
three of you, your service to our country.
    I also want to just note that today's hearing was both 
important but also serious and I want to thank our Subcommittee 
Chairman, Mr. Grothman, I think for running a very fair and 
substantive hearing. I do want to thank the Committee staff on 
both sides for the amount of work that it took to put this 
hearing in place and certainly to all the Members that have 
been involved in this issue prior to--prior to the hearing.
    I also want to note for our witnesses and for the public 
that I am a freshman Member of Congress and I have only been 
here for 7 months. But this is by far the most bipartisan 
conversation and discussion that I have seen happen in the 
Congress and I think that a topic of this significance as it 
relates to our national security, as it relates to information 
that we are trying to gather for the American public does bring 
people together and I think that has been really great to see.
    I think it is also important to note for the public, we--
today in our hearing we had on our side also both our full 
Ranking Member, which is Mr. Raskin, and our Vice Ranking 
Member, which is Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, both here at our hearing.
    I think it shows the importance and seriousness that our 
side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing but also 
the broader issue as it relates to working with our Republican 
counterparts on this Committee.
    I want to additionally add that I think--and I encourage--I 
think it is really important that we have and continue these 
discussions and these hearings. Clearly, there is a lot of 
information that we do not know.
    But it is also very clear that we have to continue our 
investigation and accountability on asking the right questions 
and ensuring that they are part of the public record.
    One thing that was important today is some folks might 
wonder, you know, why are we asking questions that might 
already be out there or that have been asked before. It is 
important that they are asked and put into the public record as 
it relates to this Committee.
    And so I want to thank you for, you know, answering some 
questions multiple times. I know not just in maybe meetings you 
had with some Members but also here in the public.
    Let me also just add an additional note that it is 
important also that our friends in the media and those that are 
not just reporting on this hearing but that have reported on 
this topic and that may in the future, the media has an 
important role in this process and it is very important that 
the media engages, does independent investigation, and reports 
on not just what happened today but what they see independently 
as what has happened around UAPs in the broader community.
    That is also an important public benefit that we have in 
trying to get the information and the facts as it relates to 
this.
    Let me also just say, finally, that as a teacher and an 
educator and a longtime teacher and researcher that I also 
really believe in following facts and doing your homework and 
making sure that you follow science as we try to get as much 
information as possible.
    So, I want to thank you all for agreeing to do that today. 
Transparency is a cornerstone of government. We live in a vast 
galaxy. A lot of unanswered questions, and thank you all for 
being here today.
    Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I would like to one more time 
thank Mr. Burchett and Ms. Luna for bringing this to our 
attention. It is a topic that has interested me since I was in 
school. It was a very illuminating hearing.
    Obviously, I think several of us are going to look forward 
to getting some answers in a more confidential setting. I 
assume some legislation will come out of this.
    Mr. Burchett. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I need to 
compliment the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on 
this. Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here, they are very 
quiet and humble. But without them this thing would not have 
come off like it did. So, I apologize.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I think we are going to want to 
look into what we can do to make more of this information 
public. I think there is certainly a time period after which it 
should always be made public and people have been concerned 
about these issues, like I said, since I was in high school.
    But in any event, I would like to thank everybody who was 
here sticking through the entire hearing.
    Without objection, the Members will have five legislative 
days to submit materials and to submit additional written 
questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the 
witnesses for their response.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                 [all]