    [House Hearing, 118 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                     VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                             MONDAY, APRIL 17, 2023

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 118-14

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

         [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov

                             ______

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
     51-906          WASHINGTON : 2023

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                            JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

    DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking
    KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
    MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
    MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
    TOM McCLINTOCK, California           HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
    TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Georgia
    THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ADAM SCHIFF, California
    CHIP ROY, Texas                      DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California
    VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             TED LIEU, California
    SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
    CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  J. LUIS CORREA, California
    BEN CLINE, Virginia                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
    LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
    JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            LUCY McBATH, Georgia
    TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
    BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
    KEVIN KILEY, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
    HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             CORI BUSH, Missouri
    NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GLENN IVEY, Maryland
    LAUREL LEE, Florida
    WESLEY HUNT, Texas
    RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina

                   CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
              AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                                     ------
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                             Monday, April 17, 2023

                                                                       Page

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary
      from the State of Ohio.........................................     1
    The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on
      the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Jose Alba
      Oral Testimony.................................................     7
      Prepared Testimony.............................................     9
    Jennifer Harrison, Founder, Victims Rights New York
      Oral Testimony.................................................    10
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
    Madeline Brame, New York State Chair, Victims Rights Reform
      Council
      Oral Testimony.................................................    25
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    27
    The Honorable Robert F. Holden, New York City Council, District
      30
      Oral Testimony.................................................    28
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    30
    Rebecca Fischer, Executive Director, New Yorkers Against Gun
      Violence
      Oral Testimony.................................................    33
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    35
    Paul DiGiacomo, President, New York Police Detectives Endowment
      Association
      Oral Testimony.................................................    40
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    42
    Barry Borgen
      Oral Testimony.................................................    44
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    47
    Jim Kessler, Executive Vice President for Policy, Third Way
      Oral Testimony.................................................    49
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    51

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    All materials submitted for the record by the Committee on the
      Judiciary are listed below.....................................   112

    Materials submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Member
      of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Texas, for
      the record
        A document entitled, ``Fear City: A Survival Guide for
            Visitors to the City of New York,'' 1975, NYPD
        An article entitled, ``3 Are Charged With Selling `Ghost
            Guns,' Including Assault-Style Rifles,'' Mar. 15, 2023,
            The New York Times
    Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the
      Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona, for the
      record
        A Legal Memorandum entitled, ``The Blue City Murder
            Problem,'' Nov. 4, 2022, The Heritage Foundation
        An article entitled, ``27 of Top 30 Crime-Ridden Cities Run
            by Democrats,'' Nov. 04, 2022, Daily Caller
    A report entitled, ``Uncovering the Truth About Pennsylvania
      Crime Guns,'' Brady, submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay
      Scanlon, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the
      State of Pennsylvania, for the record

                                    APPENDIX

    Materials submitted by Madeline Brame, New York State Chair,
      Victims Rights Reform Council, for the record
        A letter from the New York State Commission on Judicial
            Conduct, May 20, 2022
        An Open Letter to Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg,
            June 10, 2022

                     VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN

                                  ----------

                             Monday, April 17, 2023

                            House of Representatives

                           Committee on the Judiciary

                                 Washington, DC

        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in
    Conference Room A/B, 6th floor, Jacob K. Javits Federal
    Building, Federal Plaza, New York, New York, Hon. Jim Jordan
    [Chair of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Jordan, Issa, Gaetz, Johnson of
    Louisiana, Biggs, Tiffany, Roy, Spartz, Fitzgerald, Bentz,
    Cline, Gooden, Van Drew, Nehls, Moore, Kiley, Hageman, Moran,
    Lee, Hunt, Fry, Nadler, Lofgren, Jackson Lee, Johnson of
    Georgia, Schiff, Cicilline, Scanlon, Dean, and Ivey.
        Also present: Representatives Stefanik, Goldman, and
    Espaillat.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will come to order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess at any time.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms.
    Hageman, to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
        All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
    of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
    Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
    all.
        Chair Jordan. The Chair would ask the press to maybe clear
    out of the middle here so we can see our witnesses and proceed
    with the hearing.
        We welcome everyone to today's hearing on Victims of
    Violent Crime in Manhattan. We are joined today by some of our
    colleagues who would like to participate in the hearing. Ms.
    Stefanik, Mr. Goldman, whose district we're in, and Mr.
    Espaillat. Per an agreement with Mr. Nadler and without
    objection, these Members will be permitted to participate in
    today's hearing for only the purpose of asking questions of the
    witnesses. Each side will have an additional five minutes for
    these Members to question the witnesses.
        The Chair now recognizes himself for an opening statement.
        Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous consent request.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Florida is recognized.
        Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent. I
    understand Mr. Alba may be utilizing the services of an
    interpreter today, and so that the interpretation time would
    occur off the clock so that we might be able to ask questions
    of Mr. Alba.
        Chair Jordan. Without objection, so ordered.
        While we're speaking of time, I know we have to be back in
    the Capitol tonight for some votes. So, the Chair will probably
    be pretty darn strict with the five-minute rule, but we want to
    make sure all our witnesses get their full five minutes and
    members get their time to question.
        Today's hearing is about the administration of justice and
    keeping communities safe, something that has always been a
    central focus of the House Judiciary Committee. Our witnesses
    today have felt the effects of crime up close and personal.
    They've been victimized by a justice system that cares more
    about political correctness than punishing the criminals who
    have harmed them and harmed their family. We thank them for
    being here and sharing their story.
        Their stories are emblematic of a city that's lost its way
    when it comes to fighting crime and upholding the law. As we
    all know, fairness under the law is a bedrock principle of
    American democracy. In this country, justice is supposed to be
    blind, regardless of race, religion, or creed.
        However, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are
    weighed down by politics. For the District Attorney, justice
    isn't blind. It's about looking for opportunities to advance a
    political agenda, a radical political agenda. Rather than
    enforcing the law, the DA is using his office to do the bidding
    of left-wing campaign funders. He's taken a soft-on-crime
    approach to the real criminals.
        One of Mr. Bragg's first actions upon taking office in
    January 2022 was to put out a memo that directed his Assistant
    District Attorneys not to prosecute certain crimes, including
    trespassing and resisting arrest.
        The memo also stated that armed robberies should not be
    prosecuted as felonies. Instead, they were to be considered as
    misdemeanor larceny unless someone was shot during the course
    of the robbery.
        Thank goodness, after a backlash from police groups and the
    public, Mr. Bragg agreed to prosecute some robberies as
    felonies but left the rest of the memo in place.
        The president of NYPD Detectives Endowment Association
    said, quote: ``Bragg gives criminals a roadmap to freedom from
    prosecution and control of our streets.'' In Bragg's Manhattan,
    you can resist arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrests, and even
    carry a gun to get away with it.
        Guess what happened under this new policy? More crime. In
    2022, Mr. Bragg's first year as District Attorney, New York
    City saw a 23-percent surge in major crimes. Felony assaults
    rose 13 percent. Robberies spiked 26 percent. Burglaries in New
    York City went up 23 percent. Grand larcenies were up 26
    percent, and auto theft increased 32 percent. Transit crime
    surged nearly 30 percent. Imagine that. You leave criminals on
    the street; you get more crime.
        Patrick Lynch, the president of the Police Benevolent
    Association, said: ``Police officers don't want to be sent out
    to enforce laws that the District Attorneys won't prosecute.''
    There are already too many people who believe that they can
    commit crimes, resist arrest, interfere with police officers
    and face zero consequences.
        We should take a minute here to thank our brave men and
    women in law enforcement. We got a number of them right here in
    this building. Thank you for what you do.
        [Applause.]
        Chair Jordan. In the last few years, police have been
    villainized and harassed by the left and even defunded. These
    men and women put their lives on the line every day, every
    single day, and they deserve our deepest gratitude. That's not
    what they're getting from left-wing District Attorneys here and
    around the country.
        Police do their job. They do the hard work. They go out on
    the streets. They catch the bad guys, and then the DAs don't do
    theirs, don't do their job. Instead, they let bad guys roam the
    street. As we'll hear today, repeat offenders are plaguing New
    York City.
        On April 6, 2023, NYPD Commissioner Sewell said:

            Recidivism is the undertow pulling against everything we are
            doing to keep our city safe. It is counterproductive to public
            safety and, frankly, is a perpetual carousel of police
            resources.

        Astonishingly, Sewell said that 327 individuals were
    arrested more than 6,000 times for retail theft. Think about
    that: 327 individuals responsible for 6,000 retail thefts, what
    we used to call stealing, taking someone else's property. Each
    person arrested, on average, 20 times. Maybe they wouldn't have
    had that problem if they'd arrested them and kept them in jail
    after the first, the second, or maybe even the 19th time. An
    average of 20 times.
        Given the record level of crime we are seeing around the
    country, our plan this Congress has been to include field
    hearings in some of our greatest cities to analyze and
    highlight how soft-on-crime policies hurt families, hurt
    communities, hurt small business owners.
        We believe it's important to hear from victims and their
    families, who simply want to share their stories, hoping,
    hoping that it will help create change so other families don't
    have to suffer like they did.
        What better place to start than New York City, where videos
    of violent senseless attacks appear almost daily and where the
    DA of Lower Manhattan earned a reputation for caring more about
    the perpetrators of crime than the victims.
        Thanks again to all our brave witnesses for being here, and
    thanks to the NYPD, the Capitol Police, and the Federal
    Protective Services for all they do to keep people safe.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler, for an
    opening statement.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me be very clear. We
    are here today in Lower Manhattan for one reason and one reason
    only. The Chair is doing the bidding of Donald Trump. Committee
    Republicans designed this hearing to intimidate and deter the
    duly elected District Attorney of Manhattan from doing the work
    his constituents elected him to do.
        They have demanded access to the inner workings of an
    ongoing criminal case, information to which they know they are
    not entitled. They have subpoenaed a witness who used to work
    for the District Attorney whom they know cannot answer their
    questions, and they have earned a lawsuit that risks future
    Congressional oversight as a result.
        They have perpetuated the anti-Semitic and racist tropes
    that Mr. Trump has directed at both the prosecutor and the
    judge in this case. They are using their public offices and the
    resources of this committee to protect their political patron,
    Donald Trump. It is an outrageous abuse of power. It is, to use
    the Chair's favorite term, a weaponization of the House
    Judiciary Committee.
        I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty--
        Chair Jordan. Will the gentleman suspend?
        The gallery should refrain from commenting and let the
    gentleman from New York finish his statement.
        The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Nadler. I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty
    by a jury of his peers here in New York or, for that matter, in
    Georgia or in Washington, DC, on charges that may follow, but I
    do know that he will have his day in court.
        Using this Committee to undermine that process as it
    unfolds is cynical, unethical and, given the violence unleashed
    on the Capitol by the former President, just plain dangerous.
        Now, we all grieve for the victims of violent crime, here
    in Manhattan and everywhere. It is shameful that the
    Republicans of this Committee would use the pretext of violent
    crime as an excuse to play tourist in New York and bully the
    District Attorney. It is particularly disgraceful that they
    would use this pretext after doing nothing--nothing--to stop
    the gun violence that terrorizes our Nation.
        According to the Gun Violence Archive, there have been at
    least 146 mass shootings this year alone. That means there have
    been more mass shootings than days so far this year. Three
    people were shot dead, and five others injured at Michigan
    State University. Three children and three teachers were shot
    and killed at a private school in Nashville, Tennessee. Five
    people are dead and eight others, including two police
    officers, are injured after a mass shooting at a bank in
    Louisville, Kentucky.
        These tragedies have taken place in nearly every corner of
    our Nation, although I note in a study by Everytown that, in
    States where elected officials have taken action to pass gun
    safety laws, dramatically fewer people die by gun violence.
        Although there has not, thank God, been a recent mass
    shooting here in Manhattan, you must do more to stem the Iron
    Pipeline, the illicit flow of illegal firearms from States that
    do less to protect their citizens to New York and elsewhere.
        Unlike our Republican colleagues, Democrats have
    consistently advanced policies to make all our communities,
    including New York, safer places to live, to work, to worship,
    and to go to school.
        Last Congress, over the objection of every Republican here
    today, we passed the first gun violence prevention package in
    decades. We can and must do more. We must pass universal
    background checks. We must implement red flag laws to keep guns
    away from those who are a danger to themselves and others, and
    we must reinstate the assault weapons ban. Each of these
    proposals are overwhelmingly popular with the American public,
    and each is opposed by House Republicans.
        We also advanced the VICTIM Act to provide funding to law
    enforcement to improve murder clearance rates. If my Republican
    colleagues were serious about violent crime and sincere in
    their efforts to law enforcement, they would have joined us in
    that effort. One hundred and seventy-eight Republicans opposed
    that measure last Congress on the House floor.
        We supported legislation to improve policing through
    additional funding, better training, and accountability to
    strengthen public trust because we know that public safety
    requires law enforcement agencies and their community partners
    working together. Again, every Republican on the Committee
    stood opposed.
        Here in New York, one of the largest and most complex
    cities in the world, local leaders have pursued violence
    intervention, diversion programs, targeted law enforcement and
    youth engagement programs that have pushed crime and
    incarceration to their lowest levels in decades.
        Over the past year, under the leadership of Mayor Adams and
    District Attorney Bragg, crime in Manhattan has dropped in
    every major category, including murders down 14 percent,
    shootings down 17 percent, burglaries down 21 percent, and
    robberies down eight percent, all in one year. Compare that to
    Mr. Jordan's Ohio, where the homicide rate is 73 percent higher
    than in Manhattan.
        On the specific topic of gun violence, the District
    Attorney is to be commended for securing indictments against
    gun traffickers, ghost gun manufacturers, and other violent
    criminals, leading to a full 20-percent reduction in shootings
    last year.
        The Chair says this hearing is about violent crime in
    Manhattan, but New York remains one of the safest big cities in
    America. I am sure my colleagues have talking points and
    anecdotes to the contrary, but the evidence is firmly on our
    side. The evidence shows, unfortunately, that the Chair could
    have held this hearing back in Washington or in Ohio or in any
    other jurisdiction where the numbers are trending in the wrong
    direction, but, instead, he rushed to hold a hearing here in
    Manhattan in defense of Donald Trump.
        I understand that, in the days leading up to this hearing,
    Republican Members were instructed not to speak about Mr. Trump
    during these proceedings. Don't take the bait, they were
    warned, as if we cannot draw a straight line from the Chair's
    attacks on the District Attorney in the wake of the indictment
    to his attacks on the District Attorney here today. We know
    better. We all know better. The New Yorkers gathered outside of
    this building certainly know better.
        You can pretend that you aren't here on Donald Trump's
    behalf, but you cannot stop the New York criminal justice
    system from running its course, and you will not intimidate New
    Yorkers with your brief visit to this city.
        I thank the Chair and I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman for his statement.
        Now, without objection, all other opening statements will
    be included in the record.
        We will now introduce today's witnesses.
        Mr. Jose Alba. Mr. Alba was forced to defend himself while
    working at a bodega. He was attacked by a repeat criminal, who
    was on parole for assaulting a police officer. During the
    attack, Mr. Alba was stabbed and defended himself with a knife.
    Despite surveillance video showing that he acted in self-
    defense, Alba was arrested and charged with murder. These
    charges were later dropped after public outrage, including from
    Mayor Adams and former NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton.
        Thank you, Mr. Alba, for being here.
        Ms. Jennifer Harrison. Ms. Harrison is the founder of
    Victims Rights New York, an organization that advocates on
    behalf of victims and survivors of homicide victims. Ms.
    Harrison's boyfriend was killed in 2005.
        We've heard you talk about this, Ms. Harrison. We
    appreciate you being here.
        Two of the assailants were allowed to walk free while the
    third spent only a few years in jail.
        Mr. Jim Kessler. Mr. Kessler is the Executive Vice
    President for Policy and Cofounder of the Third Way. He
    previously served as Legislative and Policy Director to Senator
    Schumer.
        Ms. Madeline Brame. Ms. Brame is the New York State Chair
    of the Victims Rights Reform Council. The Victims Rights Reform
    Council was formed to provide a voice and advocate for victims
    of crime. Ms. Brame's son, Sergeant Hason Correa, was murdered
    in 2018 by four assailants. Sergeant Correa's father was also
    stabbed during the attack.
        Ms. Brame, we're sorry for your loss. Thank you as well for
    being here.
        The Honorable Robert F. Holden. Councilman Holden
    represents District 30 on the New York City Council. He co-
    leads the Common Sense Caucus with Councilman Joe Borrelli. He
    previously was a member of the Community Board 5, Queens, for
    30 years, served as first Chair for seven years, and served as
    Chair of the board's Public Safety Committee for 13 years.
        Mr. Holden, thank you for being here and for your public
    safety.
        Ms. Rebecca Fischer. Ms. Fischer is the Executive Director
    of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence. Her organization seeks to
    inform the public, particularly youth, about the dangers of gun
    violence and ways to prevent and reduce gun violence.
        Mr. Paul DiGiacomo is the President of New York Police
    Detectives Endowment Association. The association represents
    20,000 active and retired New York City detectives. Mr.
    DiGiacomo served with NYPD for 40 years.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Barry Borgen. Mr. Borgen's son was the victim of a
    violent crime who was targeted because of his faith, his Jewish
    faith. While walking near a pro-Israel rally, Mr. Borgen's son
    was attacked and beaten by at least four men. They said all
    kinds of terrible things, sprayed mace in his face.
        Mr. Borgen, we're sorry for that, what happened to your
    son. Thank you for being here today.
        We welcome all witnesses, thank them for appearing today.
    You will each be given five minutes. The clock there, when it
    gets to the yellow, that means it's kind of close. Like I said
    before, we'll try to be pretty strict on the time. Again, thank
    you all for being here.
        Mr. Alba, you are up first. We got to swear you in. I
    forgot about that.
        Would you all please stand and raise your right hand.
        Do you swear or affirm, under penalty of perjury, that the
    testimony you are about to give is true and correct, to the
    best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you
    God?
        Chair Jordan. Let the record reflect the witnesses have all
    answered in the affirmative.
        Thank you. Please be seated. Please know that your written
    testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety.
    Accordingly, we ask that you summarize, as I said before, your
    testimony in five minutes.
        Mr. Alba, you may begin.

                         STATEMENT OF JOSE ALBA

        Mr. Ansari. Representative Jordan, my name is Imran Ansari.
    I'm an attorney. I'm a partner with the law firm Aidala Bertuna
    & Kamins. I am Mr. Alba's attorney. I'm going to be delivering
    an opening statement on Mr. Alba's behalf before the testimony
    begins.
        Chair Jordan. Thank you.
        Mr. Ansari. This is an opening statement from Mr. Alba, so
    I am just the vehicle and his mouthpiece right now.
        First, I want to make this clear. My testimony--
        Chair Jordan. Could you pull that mike really close there,
    sir. It's on, I think. Just pull it down right in front.
        Mr. Ansari. So, again, Imran Ansari. I'm sorry. On behalf
    on behalf of my client, Mr. Alba, I deliver his opening
    statement.
        First, I want to make this clear. My testimony is not
    motivated by a political agenda. I am not here to support or
    side with any particular political party. I am not here because
    I am supporting Republicans. I am not here because I want to
    criticize the Democrats.
        I just want to tell the public about the horrible
    experience I had to go through because of crime in this city,
    an experience that has changed my life and that I will never
    forget.
        On July 1, 2022, I went to work at the bodega just like any
    other day. I took pride in the hard work I put in every day at
    the store to earn my own money and support myself and my
    family.
        That is when I encountered a true and real threat to my
    life. After I simply told a woman that she could not have
    potato chips because her payment was declined, I was face to
    face with her boyfriend, who seemed ready to kill me. He
    attacked me violently, threw me around the store. The woman
    stabbed me herself. I truly believed they were there to kill
    me.
        So, faced with this, I did what I knew I had to do to save
    my life, what the law allows me to do to save my life. I
    stabbed that man in self-defense. When the police came, even
    though I was injured myself, I was placed under arrest. I was
    taken to jail.
        When I came before the judge, the prosecutor said I was
    being charged with murder in the second degree. They asked for
    bail even though so many people are being let go these days,
    and I couldn't afford it.
        So, I went to Rikers Island. I was forced into a crowded
    and unsafe intake cell. Even though I was injured, in jail I
    didn't get the medical treatment I should have received. I
    spent almost a week in Rikers Island before bail was lowered
    and I could be released. I was forced to endure the harsh
    conditions on Rikers Island as an innocent man.
        I still don't know why I was charged with murder. I believe
    that law enforcement and the DA's office didn't investigate the
    case fully. They rushed to judgment, and I suffered because of
    it. Even though the charges were ultimately dropped, they
    should not have been brought against me to begin with.
        I am now traumatized from the incident. I am not working
    because I am terrified for my life that someone in the gang
    will come after me for revenge. I was injured physically and
    mentally because of the incident and my unlawful arrest and
    incarceration.
        My story is one that should not happen again. Crime does
    not discriminate on the basis of a political party. It needs to
    be addressed by law enforcement on the street and by
    prosecutors in the court, but it has to be aimed at the people
    committing crime, not an innocent man like me.
        The next time an innocent man does nothing but protect
    their own life in self-defense from a violent attack, they
    should not be made the villain but, instead, treated with care
    and compassion as the victim.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Alba follows:]
      [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair Jordan. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Alba. Thank you.
        Thank you so much.
        Ms. Harrison, you are recognized for your five minutes.

                     STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HARRISON

        Ms. Harrison. Good morning and thank you for the
    opportunity to speak today. My name is Jennifer Harrison. I am
    the founder of Victims Rights New York.
        Sadly, I was thrown into this world and forced to become an
    expert on the issues we are here to discuss when, on January
    15, 2005, both my boyfriend and his best friend were murdered.
    Three brothers were arrested and charged, but justice was not
    served as two of these brothers, both who had records, were
    freed in a sweetheart deal. Ultimately, only one person served
    just 9\1/2\ years for killing two people.
        Through that horrible experience, I connected with support
    groups on both the national and local level. I became an
    advocate against some of the atrocities I witnessed and tried
    to help other survivors of homicide victims connect with the
    resources they need to navigate through this endless nightmare.
    I have been doing so for over 18 years.
        I became more politically involved and got louder in 2017,
    when I learned of bail reform and other dangerous and deadly
    so-called social justice reforms. Nobody wanted to listen to
    us, though, the victims that have to live with the consequences
    of these decisions for the rest of our lives, when we warned of
    the harm that this would cause.
        Victims have no voice in politics or government, so I want
    to thank this Committee from the very bottom of my heart for
    giving victims that voice today. There is a depraved
    indifference toward human life sweeping across our country,
    even among elected officials. Normally, the criminals exude
    this depravity, yet here we have the one that is supposed to
    prosecute them as the one showing it.
        I would also like to say that, if Alvin Bragg was doing his
    job, none of us would be here today to talk. We are not
    politicizing our issues or our loss. From day one, Manhattan
    District Attorney Alvin Bragg announced he would not prosecute
    even very violent crimes in his now infamous memo.
        We saw an immediate result. Two police officers were shot
    and killed, a 19-year-old girl was murdered while working at
    Burger King, and multiple police officers were shot in separate
    incidents.
        Things have not gotten better, only progressively worse.
    Bragg's office has downgraded 52 percent of felonies. Even when
    his office does decide to prosecute a case, they only have
    about a 50 percent conviction rate. No one is safer, as he
    promised, as a result of his delusion or diversions.
        During Bragg's first year in office in 2002, the crime
    index went up 25.57 percent borough-wide, violent crime up
    11.73 percent, and in Manhattan South one precinct alone
    murders were up 40 percent.
        You will hear many horrible stories today. We read about
    them almost daily, like Madeline Brame and Jose Alba, whose
    testimonies will speak for themselves.
        I am here today on behalf of the many other victims that
    reach out to me and are afraid to speak out, who are completely
    distraught with the way they have been or are being treated by
    the career public defenders in Bragg's office. They are being
    told the office does not have the resources to prosecute their
    case.
        We have heard nothing about murdered victims Krystal Baron
    Nieves, Michelle Go, Christina Lee, or how their cases are
    being handled. Christina Lee was brutally murdered by a
    mentally ill homeless man who was supposed to be under
    supervised release in a shelter run by a nonprofit. Who was
    supervising this emotionally disturbed man? How did this
    happen?
        The Manhattan DA's Office has the authority and the duty to
    investigate and indict or make recommendations in situations
    like this that will keep New Yorkers safe and prevent it from
    happening again. Yet, none of that has been done. Does Bragg's
    office not have the resources for this either?
        I have heard from victims of domestic violence and hate
    crimes that have not been charged who are also unable to get
    the support services they are not only entitled to but that the
    Manhattan DA's Office receives Federal and State funding to
    provide. Why are they not providing these services efficiently?
        Over 65 Assistant District Attorneys left the office in the
    first half of 2022. Most were experienced veteran prosecutors
    that cannot be replaced. Only a select few are left in that
    office to fight for victims. What resources is Alvin Bragg
    using to replace those that left instead of using their exit as
    a scapegoat for not prosecuting cases?
        It is a very scary time to be here. God forbid you or your
    family are victimized. Who do you have to fight for you? No
    one. Alvin Bragg has given excuse after excuse to not prosecute
    violent crimes, forsaking not only the distraught and forever-
    changed victims, but the entire justice system.
        We have no recourse when our rights are violated. We cannot
    file for prosecutorial misconduct, only the criminals can, even
    when they violate our fundamental rights to life, liberty, and
    the pursuit of happiness.
        Alvin Bragg's dereliction of duty and malfeasance has
    caused tremendous harm. In our newfound progressive society,
    all the compassion and empathy are placed with those
    intentionally inflicting harm on others and not with the
    innocent casualty, the victim.
        So, again, I thank you for giving victims a voice today and
    for allowing us to shed some light on what is happening here,
    in hopes that it will change everywhere.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Harrison follows:]

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        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Harrison.
        Ms. Brame, you are recognized for five minutes.

                      STATEMENT OF MADELINE BRAME

        Ms. Brame. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Madeline
    Brame. I am the chairwoman of Victims Rights Reform Council.
    I'm also the mother of a homicide victim. My son, Sergeant
    Hason Correa, Afghanistan war retired veteran, was killed in
    Harlem in 2018. Hason was kicked, punched, stomped, and stabbed
    nine times by four individuals he did not know, nor had he done
    them any harm.
        All four of these individuals were apprehended and all four
    charged with first-degree gang assault and second-degree
    murder. This case just resolved this year. So, this case drug
    on through the Manhattan criminal court system for 4\1/2\
    years.
        When Alvin Bragg came into office, he was handed a strong
    trial-ready murder case and gang assault case against all four
    of these individuals, where this brutal, savage homicide was
    captured on video. He was handed a strong trial-ready case,
    ready to go to trial.
        As soon as he took office, the case immediately began to
    unravel. He dismissed--completely dismissed--gang assault and
    murder indictments against two of the defendants clearly on
    video participating in the brutal, savage slaughter of my son.
        Mary Saunders, the sister involved in the homicide, he
    dismissed her indictment and recharged her with assault with a
    shoe and sentenced her to one year time served.
        Travis Stewart, dismissed his gang assault and murder
    indictment and sentenced him to attempted gang assault. He pled
    guilty and sentenced him to seven years. Travis will be out in
    the next 18 months.
        Mary Saunders, the savage, is currently walking the streets
    of Harlem like she didn't just participate in the brutal
    slaughter of another human being, home with her family, home
    with her children. If that's not a threat to public safety, I
    don't know what is. She's capable at any moment of snapping and
    attacking someone and holding them while someone else plunges a
    butcher knife into their body nine times and another person 12
    times and then run away and leave their body in the street to
    bleed to death.
        This is the type of criminal element that we have walking
    the streets of New York City on a daily basis. All types of
    criminal elements, free to do what they want, when they want,
    however they want, to whomever they want with no consequences,
    no deterrents.
        We have these anti-gang violence, these Credible Messenger,
    millions and billions of our hard-earned tax dollars are going
    to fund these organizations that are doing absolutely nothing
    to deter this crime. They're doing absolutely nothing. I
    propose not another dime of our Federal tax dollars be pumped
    into these organizations until they can produce some measurable
    outcomes of effectiveness of what they're doing with our tax
    dollars to protect the public.
        Chair Jordan. Audience, there is no audience participation.
        Ms. Brame, keep going.
        Ms. Brame. As far as the Manhattan District Attorney's
    Office, if he's receiving one penny of Federal dollars, you
    need to pull that funding until he starts doing his damn job
    and prosecuting crime. I was totally disrespected. Me, my
    family, my grandchildren, we were treated like garbage, like
    garbage. I sat for 4\1/2\ years and saw mothers walk in and
    out. We have a mother sitting here right now whose son, two
    sons, one died and the other one is on a colostomy bag. This is
    out of Darcel Clark's jurisdiction.
        So, I'm not the only one. There are hundreds and thousands
    of us. We don't give a damn about your politics. We don't care.
    It could be the man from the moon who's running for President,
    OK, as long as whoever's in there stands for law and order and
    is going to return some civility and sanity to our city. Thank
    you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Brame follows:]

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        Chair Jordan. I said it a couple times. The audience should
    refrain from applause.
        Ms. Brame, though, thank you for that powerful testimony.
        Mr. Holden, you are now recognized for your five minutes.

              STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT F. HOLDEN

        Mr. Holden. Thank you, Chair Jordan, and thank you, madam.
        Chair Jordan. Pull that close, Councilman. Pull that real
    close.
        Mr. Holden. I am Robert Holden, Democratic City Council
    Member representing the 30th District in the borough of Queens
    and a Member of the Council's Public Safety Committee. I am
    here to address the lawlessness that has taken over this city
    in recent years as a result of the failed progressive policies
    implemented by Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
        On his first day in office, Bragg issued a memo that would
    decriminalize a broad range of offenses and reduce charges for
    violent crimes. This was a signal for every criminal that it
    was open season on law-abiding citizens in New York County.
        These failed progressive policies reversed 30 years of law
    and order delivered to the city by the hardworking men and
    women of the NYPD and professional prosecutors that put
    victims' rights ahead of criminals.
        Under Bragg, minor crimes, such as resisting arrest,
    trespassing, fare evasion, prostitution, are no longer
    prosecuted, which has led to a marked increase in criminal
    activity on the streets of Manhattan.
        Serious offenses, such as knifepoint robbery, commercial
    and residential burglaries, weapons possession, and low-level
    drug dealing are being charged with lesser offenses or being
    plea bargained down, resulting in shorter sentences or no jail
    time at all.
        Bragg's first year in office was marked by a dramatic shift
    in the way his office approached criminal prosecutions. We are
    feeling Bragg's soft-on-crime approach in the streets of New
    York.
        We have repeat offenders receiving lenient sentences and
    committing multiple crimes shortly after being released. This
    is happening every day. From the day he took office, it seems
    Alvin Bragg's top priority was to keep criminals out of jail
    and free to roam the streets.
        District Attorney Bragg would be better off as a defense
    attorney than a prosecutor. He downgraded over half of the
    felony cases to misdemeanors and declined to prosecute 35
    percent fewer felony cases compared to 2019. His office
    requested bail in 20 percent fewer felony cases in 2022.
        Sadly, Bragg's approach has resulted in lower conviction
    rates for serious felony charges, with his office winning a
    conviction rate of just 51 percent. It's miserable. Such cases
    brought in 2022 down from 68 percent in 2019. Even his
    misdemeanor convictions fell dramatically, from 68 percent in
    2019 in his office to 29 percent under his jurisdiction in
    2022.
        It is important to highlight that we must compare numbers
    to pre-pandemic levels about crime to get an accurate picture
    of crime in Manhattan and throughout the city. Moreover, while
    stats show that crime is still much higher than before the
    pandemic, they do not tell the entire story. Mentally ill
    homeless people verbally and physically attack people randomly
    on the streets and in the subway. Pharmacies lock up their
    products. The police officers also feel pressured to
    undercharge perps they arrest. This is a daily reality in New
    York.
        To address these challenges, we need our State legislators
    and district attorneys to prioritize public safety and work
    together to strengthen our criminal justice system rather than
    weaken it. The State legislature has failed us by passing laws
    that have weakened our criminal justice system and enabled
    criminals to evade justice.
        Federal prosecutors could help put more career criminals
    behind bars by charging the worst offenders with Federal crimes
    instead of letting progressives like DA Bragg bring
    prosecutions under weakened State laws. We are losing people by
    the tens of thousands to safer cities and States that offer a
    better quality of life.
        We must take swift action to ensure the safety and well-
    being of our communities. I applaud the House Judiciary
    Committee for examining the failed progressive policies in New
    York City and the refusal of DAs like Alvin Bragg to prosecute
    serious crimes. Public safety is paramount, and the Committee
    should take the appropriate action to ensure that justice is
    served and our communities are protected.
        Thank you for your time.
        [The prepared statement of the Honorable Holden follows:]
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        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Holden.
        Ms. Fischer, you are recognized for five minutes. You may
    begin.

                      STATEMENT OF REBECCA FISCHER

        Ms. Fischer. Good morning, Chair Jordan, Ranking Member
    Nadler, and Members of the House Judiciary Committee. My name
    is Rebecca Fischer, and I am the Executive Director of New
    Yorkers Against Gun Violence, the only statewide gun violence
    prevention organization in New York. Thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today.
        As a leader of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, I have
    devoted my career to reducing gun violence in this State. I
    care deeply about the safety and well-being of New Yorkers and
    work day in and day out to support and uplift victims and
    survivors of gun violence.
        I am committed to the safety of New Yorkers, not only
    because it is my job, but because I am a very proud resident of
    New York City, and I am a parent raising my children here.
        Our team lives and works here also, and we all work with
    victims and survivors of gun violence and violence every day.
    We all want our city and our State to be as safe as it can be.
    We advocate for strong, sensible gun violence prevention laws
    and policies, and we also have a gun violence prevention,
    education, and victim service support program here in New York
    City public schools.
        Because New York State has strong leadership, we have some
    of the strongest gun violence prevention laws and programs in
    the country and some of the lowest gun death and injury rates.
    New York ranks 47th lowest out of 50 States in gun violence
    rates.
        New Yorkers are still being killed and injured by shootings
    each year, and that is because of the national gun trafficking
    crisis. The national gun trafficking crisis is largely the
    result of weak gun laws in other States and the fact that
    Congress has not enacted Federal gun violence prevention
    reforms.
        Crime guns are illegally trafficked from weak gun law
    States in the South along the I-95 corridor known as the Iron
    Pipeline. In New York State, we are the model for the Nation on
    strong gun laws because it's not easy to acquire them here
    illegally. States along the Iron Pipeline have extremely weak
    laws, and as a result, traffickers travel to these States to
    buy guns without a background check from reckless and rogue gun
    dealers. They then illegally bring them back to New York, sell
    them on our streets, and then illegal guns are used in crimes.
        From 2017-2021, New York City recovered and traced over
    19,000 crime guns, and over 70 percent of those crime guns were
    originally purchased out of State from Iron Pipeline States.
        The guns are flowing into our most under-resourced
    neighborhoods, disproportionately impacting Black and Brown
    communities, communities that need economic investment,
    affordable housing, better access to education and healthcare,
    and so much more.
        This is why we strongly support community-led initiatives
    that are evidence-based and trauma-informed and they work, and
    also have our own school education and victim support program.
    Our school program, ReACTION, provides social and emotional
    support to youth victims of gun violence, their families, and
    their schools. We partner with community violence intervention
    programs, local and national leaders and lawmakers, victim
    support organizations and prosecutors and law enforcement.
        The COVID-19 pandemic of 2020 caused a national surge in
    gun violence across this country. However, as more resources
    are put back into the community suffering the most, public
    safety circumstances are improving, including in New York City
    and Manhattan.
        In the last 12 months, according to NYPD's own data, as of
    April, shootings and murder are down in all five boroughs,
    including Manhattan. Crimes unrelated to guns are also going
    down in Manhattan and across the city.
        Yet, there is so much more that can be done by Congress to
    keep this city safe because even one victim of gun violence is
    too many. Congress must close loopholes in the Federal
    background check system, protect survivors of domestic
    violence, pass extreme risk protection order laws, pass safe
    storage laws, crack down on ghost guns, and hold rogue,
    reckless gun dealers accountable.
        We need more investment in community violence intervention
    programs, and we need to hold the highest drivers of crime
    accountable. New Yorkers and all Americans, from Buffalo, New
    York, to Nashville, to last night's victims of the Dadeville,
    Alabama, shooting and every place in between, deserve to go to
    school, to the park, to their office, to a concert, to a
    grocery store, to their houses of worship or to celebrate this
    Nation's independence without the real and present danger of
    gun violence. Our children and our children's children have the
    right to be safe. We need Congress, we need Federal leadership
    to stand up and protect us.
        Thank you for inviting me to testify today, and I look
    forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Fischer follows:]
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        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Fischer.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, you are recognized for five minutes. You may
    begin.

                      STATEMENT OF PAUL DIGIACOMO

        Mr. DiGiacomo. Good morning and thank you for this
    opportunity to speak here today.
        I just want to say that, you know, District Attorney Bragg
    took an oath to uphold the law and not to downgrade crimes that
    have an effect on victims of New York City.
        The Detectives Endowment Association has been saying this
    forthree years now, that a lot of the laws that have been
    enacted here in New York City and New York State are
    counterproductive to the safety of the people of New York City.
        The bail reform laws. There is a direct correlation for
    when the bail reform laws were enacted to day one to the uptick
    in violent crimes across New York City. Shootings have
    increased. Gun violence has increased. Illegal guns coming into
    New York City has increased dramatically.
        We talk about the seven majors, the felony crimes that are
    affecting people in New York City. As important as those felony
    crimes that are violating the people across this city are many
    low-level crimes that are not even being addressed that affect
    the victims for many, many years to come.
        Sexual-related crimes on the subways and throughout the
    city streets are increasing. Assaults on police officers are
    increasing. I ask everyone in this room to think about your
    daughter, wife, grandmother, sister, and aunt riding on a
    subway train trying to get to work and being violated or
    groped. Just for that poor woman to try and prosecute this
    crime through the Manhattan DA's Office, and that crime is
    reduced to disorderly conduct, which is no more than a traffic
    ticket. That is going on every day in the Borough of Manhattan,
    every single day.
        It's sad, because many of the people in the Borough of
    Manhattan, the ones that vote for DA Bragg, they live here.
    Many people come to Manhattan every day to work. Hundreds and
    thousands of people come into this city, into Manhattan to
    work, and don't have the opportunity to vote for the District
    Attorney. Their safety is in jeopardy because of the District
    Attorney.
        I add Police Officer Mora and Police Officer Rivera were
    executed. Two young men were executed in the Borough of
    Manhattan. I strongly believe it was because of the memos that
    were put out by the District Attorney's Office that they were
    not going to enforce assaults on police officers, resisting
    arrest on police officers. It sent a message to the criminal
    element that there are no consequences when you assault a
    police officer.
        Now, my concern is the safety of my detectives and the
    people who we serve. It's sad what's going on in this city,
    because we have to start concentrating on the victims of crime
    and not the people that commit the crimes. It's very sad when
    people are afraid to come out of their house at night in Upper
    Manhattan or Lower Manhattan.
        When defunding the police was popular, the New York City
    Police Department had a Homeless Outreach Unit that was very
    effective. It took these homeless people off the street, got
    them food, shelter, got them the medication or the help that
    they needed. Because of the defunding of the police, that unit
    was disbanded. Now, when you walk through every neighborhood in
    Manhattan, there are homeless everywhere, because they tied the
    hands of the police.
        Laws have been enacted to tie the hands of the police. Our
    city council in New York City enacted a law called the
    diaphragm compression bill, in which you have a noncompliant
    individual fighting you and you can't put any pressure or touch
    the person from the bottom of the neck to the top of the waist,
    back and front. Now, I challenge anyone in this room to try and
    do that. It's impossible. That law was enacted, and it's on the
    books.
        We also should add, back in the late 1980-early 1990, there
    was a narcotics problem. They appointed a special narcotics
    prosecutor. Because guns are so out of control now, we need to
    enact and appoint a special firearms prosecutor, so everyone is
    on the same page in prosecuting gun-related crimes.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. DiGiacomo follows:]
         [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. DiGiacomo.
        We now recognize Mr. Borgen for five minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF BARRY BORGEN

        Mr. Borgen. I'd like to begin by thanking Congressman Jim
    Jordan and other Members of the Committee for giving me the
    opportunity to testify.
        Nearly two years ago, on May 20, 2021, I received a call no
    parent should ever receive. On the other line was my son
    Joseph, who quickly told me he was OK, but savagely beaten out
    at Times Square. He was in need of medical attention. He handed
    the phone to the NYPD, who were extremely helpful and very
    supportive and did the best they possibly can. I was told they
    were bringing him to the emergency room in Bellevue Hospital.
    Without hesitation, I made a beeline straight to Manhattan, got
    in my car, and drove to Manhattan.
        I got to the hospital. It was hard to believe what my son
    looked like. His face was beaten. His face was sprayed with
    mace. They punched him. One fellow hit him with crutches in
    Times Square broad daylight, all because he was wearing a
    yarmulke, going to a pro-Israel rally. I'm in New York my whole
    life. I'm 57. Never had problems like this. It was just very
    shocking to hear this.
        It was just like horrible, horrible to my wife. My wife was
    at home. She couldn't come with me. It was COVID. Only one
    person could go to the hospital.
        I sit in front of the Committee with the two-year
    anniversary of the attack rapidly approaching and the ongoing
    struggle with DA Bragg. This has been going on for two years.
    They have a film of this in Black and White from people on the
    street in Times Square. It's an open-and-shut case.
        DA Bragg has been schlepping this case along with no
    solution, offering deal after deal. One fellow, Waseem Awawdeh,
    who was hitting my son with crutches, was offered a sweetheart
    deal, didn't take it yet. He was let out on probation.
        As he's getting out of the court, as he's getting out of
    jail, the friends are dancing with him, on his shoulders: ``I
    will do this again.''
        He said: ``I will do this again.''
        He had no qualms about doing it again, about beating up
    another Jewish person.
        In fact, while he was out on bail, he had an incident with
    road rage with an elderly man on the street. Bragg brought him
    in. Again, nothing, just: Go out and behave yourself.
        This emboldens him to act, and he doesn't care. I've been
    in three court hearings, and basically nothing has happened in
    three court hearings here in Lower Manhattan a couple buildings
    down. It's just very disheartening that I sit here today and
    nothing is getting done.
        My son Joseph was invited to the White House to appear in
    front of Joe Biden, our President, and Kamala Harris, and so
    forth. This was not a partisan issue. This was an issue where
    they were beating up Asians in New York nonstop, no
    repercussions, beating up Jews, pushing people in the subways,
    in the tracks. No repercussions. It's hard to understand what
    goes on.
        Here this fellow is offered--one fellow is offered a deal,
    no jail time. He only punched my son once. This is what Bragg
    was offering to someone. Hit my son once. OK, one time: OK,
    I'll give you a slap on the wrist. You go home and play video
    games for two months.
        It's just disgusting.
        Now, in the last couple years since the incident happened,
    my son had surgery on his wrist. He likes to play basketball.
    He is very uncomfortable playing basketball, and there's some
    other things. It affects his whole life. It's just a terrible,
    terrible thing. He has physical therapy three days a week.
    These six individuals are walking the streets, roaming around
    like nothing, not a care in the world. It's almost two years.
    Unfortunately, Madeline's son was four years. It's horrible.
    They're pushing plea bargains back and forth. Nothing gets
    done.
        We have heard from--when my son got beaten up by these six
    individuals, we heard from many politicians, Mayor Adams or the
    candidate, Hochul, Governor Hochul.
        I must take notice with Mr. Nadler. You're a Jewish New
    Yorker. I called your office numerous times. I called Mr.
    Schumer's office, another Jewish New Yorker, numerous times. No
    one called us back. Neither one of you came out with a
    statement on my son's incident. OK. You're a Jewish New Yorker.
    You have Jewish roots here.
        Behavior like this enables DA Bragg to just do whatever he
    wants to do. If you guys would have come out with a statement
    from Washington and said we condemn this beating to Mr.
    Borgen's son, we condemn anti-Semitism, we condemn this act,
    maybe Mr. Bragg would have taken this case a little more
    seriously. I call you out on it.
        Most of my friends are so disheartened with you and Mr.
    Schumer, you don't understand. We wouldn't vote for Mr. Schumer
    again if we stood on our head. If I lived in Manhattan, I
    wouldn't vote for you either.
        I will tell you something else that bothers me. Everybody
    is here with gun control. Somehow the criminals can get guns,
    but the average person in New York can't get a gun. I just came
    back from Miami after two weeks. All my friends who moved down
    there, many, many of my friends, all have gun licenses. There's
    a deterrent there. If someone goes after you, there's a chance
    that the person they're going to attack has a way to defend
    themself.
        Here in New York, we can't get guns. The criminals walk
    around shooting people, get guns nonstop. It's just, it's
    unbelievable. A gun charge comes to Mr. Bragg, misdemeanor, no
    problem, walk the streets.
        I remember Plaxico Burress, if you remember the New York
    Giants, he was a wide receiver. He was in a nightclub. The
    Giants were 10-1. He went to a nightclub, accidentally shot
    himself with a gun. I think Robert Morgenthau was the DA at the
    time. Plaxico Burress went to jail for 18 months, if you
    remember. He was a football star in New York. They needed him;
    they would have won the Super Bowl again.
        Here in New York now, you come with a gun: OK, don't do it
    again. We'll see you again.
        It's just disgusting, and it's a hutzpah what goes on--it's
    a Jewish word, hutzpah--what goes on in this district.
        I haven't been in Manhattan for social events. I will not
    come for a restaurant. I will not come for a ball game. I won't
    go to a Broadway show. I will not set foot in Manhattan.
        I have a friend of mine who likes to go to Broadway shows,
    matinees. You know what they do now? They get a group of 30
    people. They get on a bus, park in front of the theater, walk
    into the theater. Don't walk around, no shopping. They then get
    on a bus, go to a predetermined restaurant, and they walk out
    of the restaurant, go on a bus and go home. That's the only
    interaction I have in Manhattan.
        I'd just like to say thank you for listening to me and I
    hope some good comes from this.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Borgen follows:]
         [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Please pass along our
    best to your son.
        The Chair would just ask the press, you'll have plenty of
    opportunity to get all the pictures, all the whatever you want,
    but if you could just maybe stay back a little bit,
    particularly when the witnesses are testifying, just in
    appreciation of the witnesses taking time to be here, that
    would be much appreciated by them.
        Mr. Kessler, you are recognized for your five minutes.

                        STATEMENT OF JIM KESSLER

        Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Chair.
        Chair Jordan. Pull that mike close, Mr. Kessler.
        Mr. Kessler. Thank you to Members of the Committee and to
    fellow witnesses, some of whom have suffered the deepest and
    most unfair personal losses. Thank you to Kylie Murdock, my
    research assistant, sitting behind me.
        To Members of the Committee, I've got to ask, why are we
    here? Why are we in New York City? Yes, in this massive city of
    8.5 million people piled atop each other on a speck of land
    barely 300 miles in size, awful things happen. Awful crimes
    happen. Awful losses are suffered.
        As unfortunate and tragic as it is, we live in a violent
    country like no other advanced Nation. The fact is that New
    York City is not only safer than most large cities in America;
    it is safer than most cities of any size, and, on a per capita
    basis, New York City is safer than most of the States of the
    Members sitting on the dais on the majority side.
        In 2020, for example, New York City's murder rate was 18
    percent below the national average for the entire United
    States.
        Mr. Chair, Ohio's murder rate was 59 percent higher than
    New York City's. Louisiana's murder rate was 251 percent higher
    than New York City's. The murder rate in Texas was 42 percent
    higher than New York City; South Carolina, 126 percent higher;
    Florida, 32 percent higher; Kentucky, 70 percent higher; North
    Carolina, 57 percent higher; Indiana, 72 percent higher;
    Arizona, 35 percent higher; Alabama, 119 percent higher.
        A hearing about the ravages of crime could be in Alabama,
    with its towering homicide rate and a mass killing that just
    happened yesterday; or Louisville, where five people were
    murdered in the blink of an eye at a downtown bank; or the
    murder capital of California, which is not Los Angeles or San
    Francisco or Oakland, but in Speaker McCarthy's district of
    Kern County with its county seat of Bakersfield, and it has
    been the murder capital of California for six years running.
        I am focusing on the year 2020, but it's not just that one
    year. It's the entire century. From 2000-2020, if New York City
    was a State, its murder rate would rank smack dab in the middle
    at 22nd in the Nation and be about \1/4\ the murder rate of the
    entire State of Mississippi. The Borough of Manhattan is even
    safer than the rest of New York City. From 2000-2020,
    Manhattan's murder rate would rank 30th among the 50 States.
        I need to say a word about guns and about the politics of
    crime because, (a) 79 percent of homicides are by firearm; and
    (b) I had both the pleasure and misfortune of working on the
    Mike Dukakis for President campaign, and I know how potent and
    irresistible the issue of crime is in politics.
        If someone is a victim of a gun crime in New York City,
    dollars to doughnuts that gun was not originally purchased in
    New York State. I'll double down and bet that crime gun
    originated from either Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, or
    Virginia.
        There is massive gun trafficking that ferries guns from
    those five Southern States with weak gun laws up I-95 to States
    like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and
    Massachusetts. I know this because, in 1996, I was working for
    a Brooklyn Congressman from Park Slope named Chuck Schumer, and
    we FOIAed the FBI data for every gun in America that was
    recovered in a crime and successfully traced.
        We uncovered gun trafficking patterns all across the
    Nation. Practically nothing has been done legislatively ever
    since except to make it harder, much harder to get data on the
    origin of crime guns.
        That brings me to the politics of crime. Wouldn't it be
    great if this hearing was about how illicit guns are trafficked
    to places like New York City, Newark, Boston, Philly, Chicago,
    and on and on, and how those guns terrorize the innocent people
    living in those places and elsewhere? That's the sort of thing
    Congress would do if it really cared about what was happening
    with regards to crime in New York City.
        Mr. Chair and Mr. Nadler, there are 8\1/2\ million people
    living in New York City on this tiny plot of land. Bad things
    happen here, no doubt. The miracle of New York City is how well
    this enormous chunk of humanity mostly gets along and suffers
    less crime than much of the Nation.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair and the Committee.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Kessler follows:]
         [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Kessler.
        We will now proceed with five-minute questioning. We're
    going to try to move through pretty quick and, like I said,
    stick to the five-minutes with Members. If any of our witnesses
    need a break, want a restroom break, just let us know. We'll do
    that. We can maybe go one at a time and keep going, or maybe
    we'll take a five-minute break. Just signal us and let us know.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Florida, Ms.
    Lee.
        Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today and
    being willing to share your stories with us.
        I served my community as a prosecutor and as a judge, and a
    prosecutor has an absolute responsibility to work with the men
    and women of law enforcement to uphold the law, to protect the
    community, and to consult with crime victims and their families
    to be sure that their voices are heard in our criminal courts.
        When crimes aren't prosecuted and when judges are prevented
    from setting appropriate bail or when violent criminals are
    released out on the street and allowed to re-offend because of
    reckless bail policies, the criminal justice system is failing
    victims of crime.
        It is not just my work as a prosecutor and as a judge that
    informs me for this hearing today; I am also a mother. We need
    to begin this hearing today by remembering that the victims of
    these soft-on-crime policies, the victims of these reckless
    bail reform policies, aren't just numbers; they are people and
    lives that are forever harmed or lost. Each of them reflects a
    failure in our criminal justice system.
        With that, Ms. Brame, I would like to return to your story.
    Would you please begin by sharing with us a little bit more
    about your son?
        Ms. Brame. Excuse me. Is that the way my son was murdered
    or my son as a person?
        Ms. Lee. As a person, please.
        Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason is the oldest of my five. He was
    35 years old at the time of his death. He is a father of three
    small children, Jason, Jordan, and Jailani, my three grands,
    and also Hason was a husband.
        He was an amazing young man. He was a personal physical
    trainer at Crunch gym at the time of his murder. He was also a
    full-time student at Manhattan College.
        Hason was a responsible, licensed and registered gun owner,
    all right? He was a good guy with a gun.
        Ms. Lee. Do you believe that the criminals who murdered
    your son received justice?
        Ms. Brame. That the criminals who murdered him?
        Ms. Lee. Uh-huh.
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. Even the stabber, they offered
    him a plea deal. Instead of the 25 to life, they gave--he
    copped out to 20 years. OK?
        The brother is the only--the other brother is the only one
    who actually went to trial. He blew trial, he lost trial, and
    he also got 20 to life. All right?
        Two of the other defendants got completely away with what
    they did to my son.
        If you take a life, you do life, OK? There should be no
    plea deals for murder. Those cases need to be brought to trial.
        Ms. Lee. What about your family, Ms. Brame? Do you feel
    your family was treated appropriately in the criminal justice
    system?
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. We were treated like garbage.
        Ms. Lee. Tell me about that.
        Ms. Brame. We got no answers. If it wasn't for my
    persistence, all right, if it wasn't for my not missing one
    court date, except for the one where they dropped the murder
    and gang assault charge against Mary Saunders, because Alvin
    Bragg's office did not inform me that they were doing that--
    which is my right, to know that. I didn't get a chance to give
    my victim impact statement when they sentenced her to that one
    year time served. OK?
        So, they treated us like garage. They didn't reveal any
    information. I had to do a lot of research myself. That's one
    of the reasons why I formed my Victims Rights Reform Council,
    to help others and families of homicide victims, to help them
    navigate that court system. Because we have no services.
        There are no services in New York City for victims. If
    there is, I have no idea what they are.
        Ms. Lee. Thank you, ma'am.
        Councilman Holden, you've called for legislation that would
    give judges more discretion when setting bail conditions for
    defendants who may pose a threat to public safety.
        Would you tell us a bit more about your proposals and why
    you believe they are important?
        Mr. Holden. Well, New York State is the only State in the
    Union that a judge cannot consider how dangerous the defendant
    is. So, if he's committed a number of crimes before, the judge
    can't consider that. The only State in the Union.
        So, that's why you have repeat offenders out on the
    streets. This is so ridiculous, so absurd, that a judge cannot
    consider how dangerous an individual is who is arrested. That's
    why people are walking.
        So, we've made proposals to our State colleagues. Let's
    change this. Why are we the only State in the Union that does
    this? I mean, you have to question that.
        Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman--
        Mr. Holden. Again, so many people doing this--
        Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
        Thank you, Mr. Holden. I'm sure you'll get more time.
        Mr. Holden. OK.
        Chair Jordan. The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Member
    from New York, Mr. Nadler.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Ms. Brame, you failed to note that, as a result of DA
    Bragg's prosecution, two men are currently serving life
    sentences for the murder of your son.
        Mr. Kessler, in your testimony, you noted that New York
    City is safer than most cities and even most States in America.
    The police department's own data show that, since DA Bragg took
    office, shootings in Manhattan have declined by 20 percent,
    homicides have declined by 16 percent, and the rates of
    virtually every other type of violent crime are lower during
    the first quarter this year than they were at this time last
    year. In the meantime, homicide rates in places such as Ohio,
    Louisiana, Texas, and Arizona are much higher than in New York.
        As someone who studies crime trends, what do you think
    accounts for this disparity in safety between Manhattan and
    other parts of the United States?
        Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Mr. Nadler.
        So, I don't think any place in this country is really safe,
    OK? Because we're awash in guns. New York is safer. On average,
    New York City's safer than Ohio, Texas, many other places.
        No. 1 is gun ownership rates, OK? So, gun ownership rates
    in red States tend to be about twice the gun ownership rates in
    blue States. There are other factors as well. Poverty rates
    matter. Educational attainment is often a correlation with
    crime.
        I also think that, in certain States, cities in those
    States are starved for resources, because, frankly, the
    Governors don't really care about getting votes in those
    States. So, I think some of the urban areas in southern States,
    the amount of police that they have per capita is far less than
    in places like New York City, and all the resources for schools
    and after-school programs.
        I think No. 1 is gun ownership rates.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
        How does New York City's murder rate compare to the
    national average?
        Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent
    below the national average and, I believe, has been below the
    national average every single year since 2010 and, several
    years before that between 2000-2010.
        Mr. Nadler. How about assault?
        Mr. Kessler. The assault rates are lower.
        Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
        Mr. Kessler. Burglary rates are lower.
        Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. Rape?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence of those crimes in New
    York City compare to the national average?
        Mr. Kessler. In all those cases, New York City's rates are
    lower.
        Mr. Nadler. How does New York City's murder rate compared
    to Ohio?
        Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate in 2020--oh, I
    should say, Ohio's murder rate in 2020 was 59 percent higher
    than New York City's.
        Mr. Nadler. What about the rate of rape in Ohio compared to
    New York?
        Mr. Kessler. The rate of rape in Ohio was 280 percent
    higher.
        Mr. Nadler. Then in New York? Assault?
        Mr. Kessler. A 34 percent higher.
        Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
        Mr. Kessler. A 146 percent higher.
        Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
        Mr. Kessler. A 346 percent higher.
        Mr. Nadler. Then in New York?
        Mr. Kessler. Then in New York City.
        Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence rates of those crimes in
    New York City compared to the national averages?
        Mr. Kessler. OK. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent
    below the national average; rate of rape, 58 percent lower;
    rate of robbery is 102 percent higher; rate of assault, 16
    percent lower; rate of burglary, 44 percent lower; rate of
    larceny, 71 percent lower; rate of motor theft, 58 percent
    lower.
        So, lower on six out of the seven.
        Mr. Nadler. Now, let's talk specifically about violent
    crime. Based on your review of crime data, does New York have a
    higher or lower rate of violent crime than Florida?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. What about Louisiana?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. Kentucky?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. Arizona?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. North Carolina?
        Mr. Kessler. Lower.
        Mr. Nadler. If you were able to decide or given a choice of
    where to hold a hearing about violent crime in America, what
    are some of the cities or States where you think a hearing
    would be most needed and most effective? Why?
        Mr. Kessler. Well, I think you could certainly hold
    hearings in places like Louisville, very high rates;
    Jacksonville, very high crime rates there.
        There's a lot of--Alabama, Mississippi, extraordinarily
    high murder rates in those States, some in cities, some not in
    cities.
        There's--New York City is--look, there's a lot of bad stuff
    that happens in this city, because there's 8\1/2\ million
    people here. Relative to the rest of the country, it's doing
    better.
        Mr. Nadler. Finally, according to CDC data, the States with
    the highest rates of gun deaths are Mississippi, Louisiana,
    Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, and Alaska.
        What trends are you seeing with respect to gun violence
    generally in red States?
        Mr. Kessler. What we found when we looked at between 2000-
    2020 is the murder rate in red States--as defined by the 25
    States that voted for Donald Trump in 2020 versus the 25 States
    that voted for Joe Biden--the murder rate in red States was
    higher than the murder rate in blue States in all 21 of those
    years. Over a cumulative 21-year period, it was 23 percent
    higher in those red States.
        Even if you took out the largest blue city in each of the
    red States, the murder rate was 12 percent higher in red
    States.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, parliamentary inquiry.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman may State his parliamentary
    inquiry.
        Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, our parliamentary inquiry is: In
    light of the testimony just heard, what is the mechanism for
    the Committee to transfer this hearing to Ohio, where the crime
    rate is significantly greater than here in New York?
        Chair Jordan. That's not a--
        Mr. Cicilline. Is there a motion?
        Chair Jordan. That's not a parliamentary inquiry.
        Mr. Cicilline. It is a--I'm asking a parliamentary--how do
    we move the venue so we can have hearing in a city or State
    that has a serious crime problem, the State of Ohio?
        Chair Jordan. Not a properly stated parliamentary inquiry.
        The gentleman's time has expired.
        Mr. Cicilline. Appeal the ruling of the Chair.
        Chair Jordan. It's not an appealable ruling.
        Ms. Harrison. Mr. Jordan? I'm sorry. If Mr. Nadler is going
    to make derogatory comments toward the mother of a homicide
    victim, he could at least allow her some time to respond.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady is not recognized. Hang on.
        Mr. Nadler. There were no derogatory comments.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
    will be in order.
        The gentleman's time has expired.
        The gentleman from California is recognized for five
    minutes.
        Mr. Issa. Pursuant to what you just said, I think it is
    important you have an opportunity to respond to the statement
    by the Ranking Member, that you--justice was served in the case
    of your loss. Ms. Brame.
        Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason Correa is dead forever. Dead
    forever. There are four people directly responsible for his
    murder. Two people is not justice. Until there is justice for
    the murder of my son, there will be no peace, none. All four.
        I'm asking for a special prosecutor to reopen those murder
    and gang assault charges against Mary Stewart--Mary Saunders
    and Travis Stewart. Present that evidence. Present that video
    to a jury and allow them to decide those homicidal maniacs'
    innocence or guilt.
        My son is dead forever. They deserve to be in prison
    forever.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Issa. Thank you.
        Ms. Harrison, there's been a lot of discussion at the end
    of the dais about gun violence, gun violence, gun violence.
        All three of you at that end, were there guns involved in
    the murder?
        Ms. Brame. No.
        Ms. Harrison. No, there were not. Madeline's son was
    stabbed, and my boyfriend and his best friend were both stabbed
    to death.
        Mr. Issa. So, knives kill.
        Ms. Harrison. When there's a will, there's a way. When evil
    wants to attack, evil is going to attack.
        I would also like to say that New York might have strict
    gun laws, but we also have conflicting gun laws, which I
    haven't heard from Ms. Fischer, regarding ``Raise the Age.''
        Immediately after the Buffalo incident, Kathy Hochul
    implemented a ``Raise the Age'' that placed a ban on purchasing
    weapons, certain weapons, for minors. We also have an original
    ``Raise the Age'' law that conflicts that completely, because
    it eliminates the criminal prosecution of anyone--any minor
    holding an illegal weapon.
        Mr. Issa. In this State, you have a universal assault
    weapons ban and have for a long time. Isn't that true?
        Ms. Harrison. I'm not sure about the assault weapons ban.
    I'm sorry.
        Mr. Issa. OK.
        Mr Alba, I think your testimony was very powerful. You,
    too, were attacked by other than a gun. Isn't that correct?
        If you'd pause the clock.
        [Mr. Alba's answers were delivered through an interpreter.]
        Mr. Alba. That's correct.
        Mr. Issa. I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
        Mr. Alba. That's correct. There was no gun involved.
        Mr. Issa. Your response that saved your life was also not a
    gun. Is that correct?
        Mr. Alba. Yes.
        Mr. Issa. Well, I appreciate the fact that you were able to
    respond.
        In New York, if I understand correctly, even though you
    were operating a store, you were not allowed to have a weapon
    to protect yourself in the way of a gun. Is that correct?
        I'd like to--go ahead.
        The Interpreter. Can you please repeat the question?
        Mr. Issa. Yes. In New York, you defended yourself with a
    knife because, as a store operator, you were not allowed to
    have a gun. Is that correct?
        Mr. Alba. No.
        Mr. Issa. OK. You don't own a gun. Is that correct?
        The Interpreter. Yes, he doesn't own a gun. He doesn't
    really know much about gun laws.
        Mr. Issa. OK. Thank you.
        Then, Mr. Holden, you probably could answer this. According
    to the figures we were given earlier, at least 6,000 of the
    19,000 weapons were New York-based weapons. Is it true that
    guns go missing and get stolen and get straw-purchased here in
    New York in spite of the most stringent laws in the country?
        Mr. Holden. Exactly. You're not going to get every gun off
    the street. The Iron Pipeline is a problem, we know that, but a
    lot of guns come from New York City. A lot of guns are made in
    New York City, put together in New York City.
        The problem we have in New York State, in New York City,
    is, we have some of the toughest gun laws in the Nation, but
    they don't enforce them. The courts are not enforcing them, the
    DAs are not enforcing them.
        So, this is a big problem. You have multiple shootings, one
    individual, five arrests for shootings, and he's back out on
    the street. How is that working?
        Mr. Issa. Yes.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, you represent so many of our brave men and
    women in blue. Can you comment on that failure to enforce
    existing laws, leading to the kind of both gun and non-gun
    violence that New York is seeing?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, like we said earlier, it was brought
    out in the hearing that New York City police and detectives
    took an amazing amount of firearms off the streets. Every time
    they do that, they put their life in harm's way. They confront
    an armed felon and they put their life in harm's way, just for
    that individual to walk out the door the next day and again get
    a firearm and use it either in a robbery or in gang-related
    violence.
        Mr. Issa. Mr. Chair, I'm not going to take all the time
    that should've been paused, but I do want to comment that a lot
    has been made about moving the venue or other places we could
    be, and I will reiterate on behalf of my colleagues on the
    other side of the aisle: Yes, we could be having this in Los
    Angeles; yes, we could be having it in San Francisco. There are
    other places around the country in which, systematically,
    district attorneys are not enforcing the laws, leading to the
    kind of terrible stories we're hearing here today.
        I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        The gentlelady from California, Ms. Lofgren, is recognized.
        Ms. Lofgren. Thank you.
        I do think that there is a reason why we're in this
    jurisdiction.
        First, let me just say: All of us on this Committee, no
    matter our party, are opposed to crime, and all of us have
    sympathy for victims of crime. It's not acceptable.
        I will say also that we don't have jurisdiction. The
    Federal Government does not have jurisdiction over State and
    local prosecutions. That's up to the voters of each State and
    each locality.
        If we were going to have a hearing that we have no
    jurisdiction to deal with, I think we might go to a place in
    the Speaker's district, which has much higher crime rates than
    New York City. As has been mentioned, Bakersfield has a
    homicide rate of 13.7 percent per 1,000-100,000 people. New
    York is at 5.5 for the same amount of residents.
        I'll note also that 100 percent of the fatal officer-
    involved shootings involved a gun.
        Mr. Jordan in his opening statement mentioned his sympathy
    for the police. We all have that. I also have sympathy for the
    officers who defended us against a MAGA mob, unlike some
    Members on the other side of the aisle.
        I think it's pretty obvious that we're in New York because
    of the case of New York v. Donald J. Trump. I'm also worried
    that we're not here about guns. Because 80 percent of all the
    murders in the U.S. are committed with a gun. We've had 155
    mass shootings so far this year. Our colleagues on the other
    side of the aisle have prevented any kind of sensible gun
    violence legislation from passing to keep us safe.
        Now, we're not the only country in the world with people
    who want to do bad things or with people who are unstable.
    We're the only country in the world that has mass shootings
    practically every other day. That is something that's within
    our jurisdiction, and we ought to take some action.
        This is a choice that we are making, to allow all the
    children of America to go into school worried that they're
    going to be the victim of a mass shooting. It's a scandal that
    we have done nothing about it.
        Now, talking about The People v. Donald J. Trump, we don't
    have jurisdiction over that either. That's something that is a
    local prosecution, and it's entirely improper for the Federal
    Government or any committee of the United States to try and
    interfere in this matter.
        So, having said that, I want to talk a little bit more
    about--or ask a little bit more about gun violence and what can
    be done about it.
        Ms. Fischer, it's been suggested--or, Mr. Kessler, either
    of you--that, somehow, having more guns would make us safer. Do
    the statistics actually back that up, that having more guns
    makes for a safer community?
        Ms. Fischer. States with strong gun laws have lower rates
    of gun violence.
        One of the things that's important to say here is that
    crime is going down in New York City, thankfully, but there is
    more than can be done by Congress to enact strong universal
    background checks, a strong Extreme Risk Protection Order law
    at the Federal level, and to fund State laws. There's more that
    can be done to enact safe-storage laws and to combat the
    trafficking crisis. Congress is standing idly by and not doing
    anything.
        Ms. Lofgren. Let me ask you about--some of our colleagues
    have suggested that we defund the prosecutor's office here in
    Manhattan. It's my understanding that the majority of the funds
    comes from an annual grant to the office's Witness Aid Services
    Unit that provides services to victims of crime.
        What would the impact be of eliminating those services, if
    you know, Mr. Kessler or Ms. Fischer?
        Ms. Fischer. Sure.
        We need to be investing and putting more resources into
    victim services and supporting victims. As you heard here
    today, we need to be giving victims more mental health support
    and more social support. We need to be helping them find access
    to compensation, not only for funeral expenses, for hospital
    expenses, to make up for lost income.
        Ms. Lofgren. Let me just say, I want to thank all the
    witnesses, including the victims of crime. I fear that you are
    being used for a political purpose, despite your sincerity.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time has expired. The
    gentlelady's--the Committee will be in order. The Committee
    will be in order.
        The gentlelady's time has expired.
        The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz, is recognized for
    five minutes.
        Mr. Gaetz.

            Our criminal justice system is insane. It's dangerous. It's
            harmful. And it is destroying the fabric of our city. Time and
            again, our police officers make an arrest, and then the person
            who was arrested for assault, felonious assault, robberies, and
            gun possession, they're finding themselves back on the street
            within days, if not hours, after arrest.
                                                      Eric Adams, New York
    Mayor

        Mr. Gaetz. My friends, the reason we are here in New York
    is because you have Democrats, you have citizens calling for
    some relief from this pain. We are here not to use anyone but
    to uplift the voices of brave people who are here to tell their
    story.
        Ms. Brame, do you feel used in this hearing?
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Brame, do you feel used?
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not.
        Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison?
        Ms. Brame. I'm a willing participant.
        Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison, do you feel used?
        Tell you what, let me ask it this way: Do you feel more
    used by this Committee hearing, or do you feel more used by a
    criminal justice system that allowed people to kill people that
    you love and care about with no consequence?
        Ms. Harrison. The latter. I'm beyond grateful for the
    opportunity to testify here on behalf of victims, because the
    Democrat Party, including Mr. Nadler and everybody here today,
    has ignored us in this city. We need Federal oversight. We need
    help. We're not getting any kind of help.
        Mr. Gaetz. So--
        Ms. Harrison. The services that she wants to keep funding
    are not being provided to the victims. I have a woman sitting
    outside who is a victim of domestic violence, who was conned by
    an immigrant, and she is receiving no services whatsoever.
        So, until we get a thorough audit to the outcomes of the
    services being provided, no. We need to find out what's going
    wrong and get the services to where they need to be.
        Mr. Gaetz. I am not here to criticize any New Yorkers,
    except maybe one, and that's because so many New Yorkers will
    soon become Florida voters.
        This is an iconic city. It's actually our Nation's most
    iconic city. It's not because of the beautiful architecture,
    and it's not because of the geography. It is because of the
    sense of hustle that is so inherent to the people who come to
    New York to achieve their dreams. Increasingly, that hustle is
    being replaced with fear.
        Mr. Holden, Councilman Holden, you and I are from different
    parties. If we talked about a thousand things, we'd probably
    disagree about the vast majority of them. Here is my simple
    question for you: Is fear a rising feature of life in New York,
    or is fear a declining feature of life in New York?
        Mr. Holden. It is increasingly worrisome, what we're going
    through in New York City. Fear is an everyday event in New York
    City.
        Taking the Subway. My wife is Asian-American. She will not
    get on a New York City Subway. My daughter will not get on a
    New York City Subway, for fear, because many Asian-Americans
    have been attacked.
        Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Kessler says, there's just a lot of people
    here in Manhattan; you just have to take it.
        Mr. Holden. Right.
        Mr. Gaetz. You just have to understand that this is going
    to be a violent place.
        Mr. Holden. Which I found that insulting.
        Mr. Gaetz. Well, Mr. DiGiacomo, you're here as the voice of
    law enforcement, in many ways. Since the days of Cain and Abel,
    there has constantly been a violent criminal element as some
    feature of American society. The lives we all get to live are
    lashed to whether or not we put that violent criminal element
    in charge or whether or not we constrain it for the sake of
    people who want freedom.
        So, my question for you is: When the ``Day 1 Memo'' of
    Alvin Bragg changes the way resisting arrest is treated, so
    people can resist arrest against law enforcement and not
    actually face a consequence for that, what does that do to the
    enterprise of police officers?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it makes the officers and the
    detectives on the street, their job that much harder.
    Everything becomes confrontational or physical. They put
    themselves--the police officers and detectives are in harm's
    way. Now, I--
        Mr. Gaetz. Well, we don't want to do that, but I have only
    a moment left, and I have to address this matter of crime rates
    that my colleagues keep talking about.
        To the extent that there is an impact on crime rates in
    major cities, I would suggest that this is exactly what you get
    with the ``Soros-ization'' of the United States justice system.
    In places like New Orleans, Louisiana, in places like Tampa,
    Florida, in Jacksonville, Florida, in Tucson, Arizona,
    increasingly George Soros is putting in upwards of $40 million
    to elect 75 DAs to be able to engage in these downgrades.
        By the way, not only are they downgrading the violent
    things, they can't even win the cases they try.
        Mr. Holden, you pointed out the fact that Alvin Bragg is
    actually terrible at losing in court. Since I don't have time,
    I would ask you for the record, since he keeps losing all of
    his cases, we might opine as to why, and we might seek a better
    utilization of the Federal resources that we provide.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Texas, Ms.
    Jackson Lee.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
        Let me indicate, I abhor crime. I abhor victimization, the
    victims that suffer. I want to prevent crime. I want to pay
    tribute to all the law enforcement in this room and outside and
    those in Houston, Texas, from where I come from, of which I
    have a deep and abiding affection and relationship with.
        As a Democrat, I will not sit here, as my predecessor said,
    Barbara Jordan, and see the diminution of the Constitution, the
    destruction of what we believe in and our values.
        I want to stand here and be supportive of everyone who is
    before us, but I want to do it in a way that is befitting the
    patriotism of this Nation. The very soldiers that are on front
    lines wearing uniforms are people of color and otherwise. I
    abhor anti-Semitism, if you will.
        I abhor people being violated through domestic violence. It
    was Democrats who fought extensively for the Violence Against
    Women Act, which has put a lot of money in the State of New
    York City and other States.
        Let us work together. Let us find facts that really address
    this question. That is what I'm going to try to do.
        First, I think it is important to note that the moneys that
    the Republicans want to cut are moneys that would help victims.
    We don't want victims, but we need to have resources. My own
    crime victims in Houston say, ``We are lonely. We need to be
    taken care of after the incident.'' I agree and I brought money
    to the Houston Police Department.
        Let me ask Ms. Vaughan: There are many things that we can
    do better--excuse me, Ms. Fischer: There are many things that
    we can do better. I'd clearly like you to talk about the
    importance of a storage bill. I've introduced the Kimberly
    Vaughan Safe Storage Act. What does that do in terms of
    bringing down gun violence?
        Ms. Fischer. Thank you--
        Ms. Jackson Lee. My time is short, so I appreciate it.
        Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
        We need safe-storage laws to ensure that children can't
    access guns that shouldn't have them; to ensure that
    individuals who are in crisis can't access them and potentially
    commit suicide and mass shootings.
        Safe-storage laws work. We have a strong one here in New
    York State, and Congress should enact one as well.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Can I just ask, yes or no, are mandatory
    red flag laws good?
        Ms. Fischer. Yes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Should we rush to Washington and implement
    a ban on assault weapons?
        Ms. Fischer. Yes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Can we do better in passing stronger gun
    safety legislation? We know we've had one bill, but can we do
    better?
        Ms. Fischer. We absolutely can do better, and we need
    comprehensive reform, and we need it urgently, for all
    Americans.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Kessler, can you quickly respond to
    the question of violence? Can you, under oath, as you've taken,
    affirm that violence or gun violence, in a myriad of ways, has
    going down in this State? I just want to hear you say it again.
        Mr. Kessler. Yes, it is absolutely true. It's also 18
    percent below the national average in New York City. New York
    State has a far lower murder rate than the country as a whole.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Quickly, thank you very much--Ms. Fischer,
    what percentage of guns found in New York come from other
    places?
        Ms. Fischer. Over 70 percent of guns that are used in
    crimes in New York City and across New York State come from out
    of State, the Iron Pipeline from weak-gun-law States, including
    Florida, the Carolinas, and Georgia.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me ask Council Member Holden--thank
    you for your service. You said you're a lifelong New Yorker?
        Mr. Holden. That's correct.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. You therefore lived in New York in the
    1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and so on?
        Mr. Holden. Yes. Yep.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Did you say in an article recently, ``I've
    never seen the lawlessness we're seeing now''?
        Mr. Holden. Yep.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. So, do you realize and recognize this
    pamphlet, ``Fear City,'' in the 1970s?
        So, apparently we've had some ups and downs. This is ``Fear
    City: A Survival Guide for Visitors to the city of New York,''
    NYPD, 1975.
        I'd ask unanimous consent to put this in the record.
        Chair Jordan. Without objection.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. So, we've had our moments. We do better if
    we work together. Rather than we cast about what is bad and
    what isn't, let's work together. Let's get the funds, let's get
    the appropriate justice for these victims.
        Let me quickly go to this point. We are here wrongly,
    because--you're here rightly. You are here rightly. We're here
    wrongly, because District Attorney Bragg, because of Trump, has
    been called--he called him a ``Soros-backed animal,'' a dog
    whistle. Then, of course, other Republicans have followed
    likely.
        By the way, Republicans have threatened to defund the ATF--
    Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms--that does a lot on trafficking.
        This office, because of these threats, white powder has
    come. He's had threatening and racially charged calls into the
    District Attorney.
        I indicated to you my belief and love in democracy. I want
    justice for you. This is an absurd and poor reflection of who
    we are as Americans, who I am as a Houstonian. I believe in
    bringing people together. We need to bring people together and
    work on the solutions.
        I ask unanimous consent to place in the record ``3 Are
    Charged With Selling `Ghost Guns' Including Assault Weapons.''
        Chair Jordan. Without objection.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. --I'm asking unanimous consent.
        Chair Jordan. Yes, without objection.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The ``Welcome to Fear City,'' unanimous
    consent?
        Chair Jordan. Without objection.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. With that, I yield back. I thank you.
        I thank the witnesses out of the bottom of my heart.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
        The Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes.
        Mr. Holden, you were born in New York City?
        Mr. Holden. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. You were raised in New York City, went to
    grade school and high school here in the city?
        Mr. Holden. Yep.
        Chair Jordan. Went to college in New York City? You got a--
        Mr. Holden. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. I think I looked. You got an associate
    degree, an undergrad degree, post-grad degree, all from
    universities here in New York City. Is that right?
        Mr. Holden. Yes, I did, Chair.
        Chair Jordan. You're a professor at a university here in
    New York City?
        Mr. Holden. Right. Forty-four years.
        Chair Jordan. All your professional career has been spent
    here in New York City. Is that right?
        Mr. Holden. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. You received a lifetime achievement award for
    your volunteer work from a Queens civic group. Is that right?
        Mr. Holden. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. For your work here in the city.
        Mr. Holden. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. You love this town, don't you?
        Mr. Holden. I love it.
        Chair Jordan. I think Mr. Gaetz is right. I think America
    loves this town.
        Mr. Holden. Right.
        Chair Jordan. Whether you're a Yankees fan, a Mets fan, a
    Giants fan, a Jets fan, we don't--the Statue of Liberty, Ellis
    Island, Broadway, and Wall Street. Americans love this city.
    Maybe most, I think Americans appreciate the people of this
    town and the example they showed the country after that tragic
    day of 9/11.
        Mr. Holden. Right.
        Chair Jordan. Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
        Mr. Holden. I agree with that 100 percent.
        Chair Jordan. Yes.
        Right now, the policies being implemented by this District
    Attorney are going to ruin this great city. Do you agree with
    that?
        Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
        Chair Jordan. It's scary, isn't it? It's scary what you
    see. It's scary what Ms. Harrison's had to endure, what Mr.
    Alba's had to endure, what Ms. Brame's had to endure, and what
    Mr. Borgen has had to endure.
        It's driven by that ``Day 1 Memo,'' that ``Day 1 Memo,''
    which sent a message to this town, to the bad guys in this
    town: You can do bad things, and you're not going to get
    prosecuted.
        Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
        Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
        Chair Jordan. Yes, it's scary. Soft-on-crime policies are
    going to ruin this great city, and that's why we're here.
        It's happened in other cities, as Mr. Gaetz pointed out.
    That's why this is not the only hearing. We're going to have
    other hearings. We'll go to wherever we need to go.
        This is something that has to happen--that has to stop.
    Justice isn't supposed to be political.
        Now, Mr. Holden, you're a Democrat, right?
        Mr. Holden. Yes, I am.
        Chair Jordan. It shouldn't matter. Republican or Democrat,
    I think as a lot of people said, it should not matter, should
    it?
        Mr. Holden. It should not.
        Chair Jordan. What's the answer, Mr. Holden? What would you
    recommend?
        Mr. Holden. Well, my allegiance is to my constituents. I
    live here.
        Chair Jordan. Well said.
        Mr. Holden. For 71 years, I've lived in New York City. I've
    seen bad times, high crime, 2,000 murders a year in the 1980s.
    I've not seen the lawlessness that I'm seeing today in New York
    City in my lifetime. That means we're afraid to go anywhere.
    There's things--
        Chair Jordan. Let me just be clear. So, in 71 years, your
    life here in this great city, it's never been as bad as it is
    today.
        Mr. Holden. I've had so many friends leaving this town
    because they just see the quality of life dropping. They go out
    on the street, there's people driving down the wrong way with
    the electric scooters, there's people robbing stores. You know
    that all the--
        Chair Jordan. Yes.
        Mr. Holden. --pharmacies in New York City have to be under
    lock and key, you have to go in a case.
        It's so bad, these small crimes, that Mr. Bragg has said
    he's not going to prosecute. You don't send that message out
    there. That's why we disagree. We're the same party, but we
    totally disagree on that.
        Again, my allegiance is not to the party. It's to my
    constituents and where I live. Again, I plan to live here until
    I die. I don't want to see it go down the drain.
        Chair Jordan. Yes. You're standing up for the folks you get
    to represent in Queens as part of the city council.
        Mr. Borgen, Ms. Fischer earlier said, ``bad guys go into
    other States and buy guns illegally.'' The Democrats' response
    is, take away guns from law-abiding citizens.
        Is that going to work, Mr. Borgen?
        Mr. Borgen. Absolutely not.
        I just want to say one thing. I sit here and listen. You're
    on one side; you're on one side. When Ronald Reagan was
    President, him and Tip O'Neill had regular meetings, got
    together and worked together in Congress.
        Chair Jordan. That's right.
        Mr. Borgen. I don't understand why I have to sit here,
    whether Republican or Democrat--I'm a Republican, by the way. I
    now vote in Florida, and I'm a registered voter in Florida. I
    have a Florida driver's license. Based on--I'm not trying to
    stay.
        The fact of the matter is, if everybody worked together and
    not sit here and say, this party says this about Trump, about
    this, it's just--it doesn't make any sense. The fact of the
    matter is, the criminals will get guns either way. You can do
    whatever you want; the criminals are going to get guns. They
    always have gotten guns. It's not going to change. It's not
    going to change.
        So, you can sit here until you're blue in the face. You can
    say, Congress, we're going to outlaw gun sales across America.
    They're going to get guns.
        Chair Jordan. Yep.
        Mr. Borgen. The criminals will get guns. There's nothing
    you can do about it. Just that's life.
        Mr. Kessler sits here and says we have to sit here and take
    it. I've never heard someone say to me I have to take crime.
        I live in Long Island. Crime has now come to my area, out
    in the Five Towns, a very nice, suburban area. We have had
    robberies now in stores. Now, the crime is coming toward me
    because, I guess, New York City is tapped out; they can't rob
    the pharmacies anymore.
        Criminals are going to get guns. Nothing you can do about
    it, absolutely nothing.
        Chair Jordan. The bad guys aren't necessarily stupid;
    they're just bad.
        Mr. Borgen. They're just bad.
        Chair Jordan. They're going to figure out a way to do bad
    things. The key is to put bad guys behind bars so they can't
    harm others. When you send that message, things get better.
        Mr. Borgen. There's a segment of society that are always
    going to be criminals. It's been from day one. Nothing you can
    do about it. If Mr. Bragg would lock people up, then it'd save
    a lot of headaches in New York City and save lives.
        Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman--the Chair now recognizes the
    gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson, for five minutes.
        Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Chair, this is a sham hearing. It's not about crime in
    New York. It's an effort to impede and ultimately suppress the
    prosecution of Donald Trump. If you don't believe it, then all
    you need to do is connect the dots.
        First, Manhattan District Attorney Bragg announced his
    criminal charges against ex-President Trump. Then, House
    Judiciary Republicans abused their power by subpoenaing
    testimony and records from DA Bragg about the ongoing
    prosecution. Next, they bring this sham hearing to Manhattan,
    supposedly about crime. If my colleagues across the aisle were
    really concerned and really cared about reducing violent crime,
    they'd work with Democrats to pass commonsense gun laws.
        There are too many gun deaths in this country, and that's
    why I have joined with my fellow Democrats to cosponsor bills
    that would ban assault weapons, strengthen background checks,
    and fund research into gun violence prevention.
        Meanwhile, MAGA Republicans continue to resist even the
    most basic reforms, like universal background checks. If
    Republicans really wanted to stop violent crime, they would be
    in D.C. right now working with Democrats to pass commonsense
    gun legislation. Instead, like jackbooted thugs, they've
    descended on New York City, using violent crime as their
    pretext.
        The MAGA Republican extremists are not interested in gun
    violence--or even knife violence. The Republican witnesses who
    have used their time to criticize District Attorney Bragg have
    served as props in a MAGA Broadway production. The real purpose
    in coming to New York City--
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. Hey.
        Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose--
        Chair Jordan. Hey.
        Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New
    York City--
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The gentleman
    will suspend.
        Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Stop the clock.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. For the audience, I've said several times now
    that the Committee has to be in order. If anyone continues,
    then we're going to have escort some people out.
        Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk--
        Chair Jordan. So--
        Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk down to us witnesses, please.
        Chair Jordan. Yes. The gentleman from Georgia controls the
    time. Mr. Johnson can proceed.
        Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New
    York City is to harass, intimidate, and threaten Manhattan
    District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
        We are here because Manhattan District Attorney Bragg
    announced the indictment of former President Trump, and MAGA
    U.S. House Republicans have responded by using their power to
    try to help ex-President Trump beat the 34 counts of fraud that
    he has been charged with.
        MAGA Republican extremists have defended the January 6th
    insurrectionists, and they are out here today serving as
    Trump's bulldogs, trying to scare a duly elected district
    attorney from following the facts where they lead and enforcing
    the law.
        It is just one more sign that MAGA Republicans are a clear
    and present danger to our democracy and are actively working to
    undermine the rule of law, not just federally, but also on the
    State and local levels.
        With that, Mr. Chair, I yield the balance of my time to the
    gentleman from New York's 18th District, Hon. Congressman
    Adriano Espaillat.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Thank you, Ranking Member.
        Thank you, my colleague, Hank Johnson, for yielding time.
        Mr. Chair, first, I want to express my condolences, my
    deepest condolences, to both Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame.
        Mr. Alba, I was proud to see your community, our community,
    rally around you and other bodegueros, and I applauded DA
    Bragg's decision to drop the charges against you.
        During the 1980s and 1990s, before I was involved in public
    service, as a regular citizen of New York, I fought crime and
    drugs during the crack wars in northern Manhattan. During those
    years, the 34th Precinct used to average over 100 homicides--
    let me repeat this--over 100 homicides a year.
        Myself and my family members were held at gunpoint during
    those years, held up at gunpoint. I don't know if any of you
    here have been held up at gunpoint. This is deeply personal to
    me.
        This year, the 34th Precinct has witnessed zero homicides.
    Last year, although far too many, that same precinct in
    northern Manhattan witnessed five homicides. From 100-5 to,
    this year, zero.
        Let me say something to you, Mr. Chair. The common
    denominator in most homicides across the country is a gun. It's
    a gun. Eighty percent of the homicides in this country are
    committed by guns.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The
    gentleman's time--
        Mr. Espaillat. A young man--
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has--
        Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th--
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
        Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th Street, a gun.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Georgia yields back.
        Mr. Espaillat. You guys brandish your pins with the AR-15?
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
        Mr. Espaillat. Reprehensible.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Johnson, is
    recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        I wanted to begin by quoting a short excerpt from an
    important study and legal memorandum that was issued in
    November by The Heritage Foundation. Listen to this. It's
    entitled, ``The Blue City Murder Problem.'' This summary
    statement is a message to all Americans--
        Chair Jordan. If the gentleman would suspend for just a
    second.
        I would ask that the audience be quiet. The gentleman from
    Louisiana controls the time.
        If we could stop press--if the press would please move so
    we can conduct the hearing. Move aside.
        Capitol Police, if you could help us just clear that out.
        The press will be given ample opportunity to talk to folks.
    We need to clear out and be quiet hearing.
        The Committee will be in order.
        The gentleman from Louisiana is recognized for five
    minutes.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Here's the quote:

            Your public safety as a resident is dramatically impacted by
            your district attorney and whether he or she is a George Soros-
            funded rogue prosecutor or a law-and-order prosecutor, by your
            police department, and by whether the local politicians support
            and adequately fund the police and prosecutors' offices.

    It goes on:

            This is why the Soros rogue prosecutor movement has
            concentrated its fire at identifying, recruiting, and funding
            candidates for local district attorney races. By elevating pro-
            criminal and anti-victim zealots into office, the rogue
            prosecutor movement destabilizes the safety of our communities,
            treats criminals as victims and police as the criminals, and
            ignores real victims.

        America's sky-high murder rates, for example, are almost
    exclusively cabined in cities run by Democrats and with
    Democrat district attorneys, many of whom are bought and paid
    for by George Soros.
        Why are we beginning our crime-wave field hearings in New
    York City? Because this is one of the most egregious examples
    in America. Alvin Bragg is the poster child for exactly what
    was just described.
        Ms. Brame, I want to thank you for your compelling
    testimony today and sharing the shocking and tragic story of
    your son, Sergeant Hason Correa's gang assault and vicious
    murder by four criminals he did not know.
        In your written statement submitted today, you wrote this.
    You said, quote,

            DA Bragg has demonstrated over and over again that he has no
            regard or concern for human life or victims of crime by
            instructing his ADAs to not prosecute violent recidivists and
            ultimately release them back to the streets to victimize and
            terrorize more innocent New Yorkers.

        You heard Mr. Nadler, Mr. Kessler, and others share their
    manipulated statistics this morning suggesting that New York
    City is, quote, ``one of the safest big cities in America.''
    You and other New Yorkers don't agree with that, I know. Mr.
    Holden just said, ``our people are afraid to go anywhere
    because this is the worst lawlessness in the city's history.''
        How do you respond to these claims that this is just a
    magical, safe city right now?
        Ms. Brame. Well, I think that the average New Yorker
    doesn't care nothing about no statistics, OK, especially in the
    Black and Brown communities.
        We care about the mothers who have to visit the morgue to
    identify their dead child's body. We care about the mothers who
    have to lean into the coffin and watch them lower that top down
    on that child and they know they'll never see them again. We
    care about being able to let our child go out to the park and
    play without getting shot in their stroller. We care about not
    getting raped in elevators.
        We don't care nothing about your statistics. You cannot
    convince us to not believe our lying eyes with your numbers.
    All right? Because we see it with our very eyes day-in and day-
    out, especially in the poor Black and Brown communities, where
    none of you in this room would even step foot in.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Ms. Brame, you're so right.
    They're changing the subject. They're doing their best to
    change the subject here and obscure the facts because the facts
    are difficult for them to face.
        The objective fact is that Manhattan has instituted pro-
    crime, anti-victim policies that have resulted in an increase
    in violent crime and created this dangerous situation in the
    community, in America's once-great city that was the symbol of
    freedom and opportunity and liberty.
        According to the NYPD data, New York City saw a 23-percent
    surge in major crimes in one year since Alvin Bragg took over.
    That is the fact. We have a violent crime epidemic here.
    Everybody in America knows it, because we see the videos played
    out on our television local news every single night of what's
    going on here in the city.
        I just want to say this, and I'm almost out of time, but
    I've shared in this Committee before the long list of
    statements from leading Democrats in Congress and the leading
    Democrats on this very Committee who specifically and
    aggressively called for the defunding of the police. As a
    result, in 2020, in New York City, officials cut $1 billion
    from the police department's 2021 budget.
        These are the completely foreseeable and obvious effects of
    the soft-on-crime policies that are advanced by Soros-funded
    DAs. Alvin Bragg is, in my view, probably the worst offender.
    They're trying to manipulate the facts, they're trying to
    change it, but I thank you for being here.
        I yield the remainder of my time.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
        The gentleman yields back.
        The gentleman from California, Mr. Schiff, is recognized
    for five minutes.
        Mr. Schiff. Almost three weeks ago--is the microphone on?
        Chair Jordan. Yes. Just pull it closer.
        Mr. Schiff. OK. Almost three weeks ago, Donald J. Trump was
    indicted by a grand jury in Manhattan on dozens of counts of
    fraud in connection with a hush-money payment scheme in which
    his personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, previously went to jail.
        Since the former President's indictment, the Manhattan
    District Attorney has been the subject of countless death
    threats and racist diatribes. Others have made ugly appeals to
    anti-Semitism in an effort to attack the proceedings.
        This Committee has used every means at its disposal to
    disrupt, interrupt, and interfere with the prosecution,
    demanding documents it has no right to obtain and no
    jurisdiction to demand, subpoenaing a former district attorney,
    deputy district attorney, and threatening to subpoena the DA
    himself, and now holding this hearing in Manhattan in a vain
    attempt to intimidate or embarrass the prosecutorial authority.
        Now, the majority denies that this is the purpose of
    today's hearing. They would have you believe it is a mere
    coincidence that, all of a sudden and out of the blue, the
    Chair decided that the State of New York is a wonderful place
    to do a hearing--not the Chair's home State of Ohio, with its
    high rates of murder, but New York State. Of all the cities in
    New York, they would pick New York City. Of all the boroughs in
    New York, they pick Manhattan. Apparently, Manhattan is just
    lovely this time of year.
        What a remarkable coincidence, we are meant to believe. Of
    all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, we just
    happened to walk into this one.
        How absurd.
        Of course, this is not a coincidence at all. Instead, it is
    the GOP leadership in Congress doing what it has done best for
    the last six years, and that is to act as the criminal defense
    counsel for Donald J. Trump.
        Well, let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. Capitol Police--the gentleman will suspend.
        Capitol Police will remove the gentleman from the audience.
        Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
        Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
        Chair Jordan. Stop. Stop. Stop.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Mr. Schiff. Donald J. Trump--
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend until we've got
    order.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The audience has
    to be in order.
        Capitol Police? Capitol Police? Sir?
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Mr. Schiff. Can we have order?
        Chair Jordan. We are working on it, Mr. Schiff. Gentlemen,
    Capitol Police, please remove the gentleman from the audience.
        No, you've gotta go. You've gotta go. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
    I've given you several warnings. You've gotta go,
    unfortunately.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Mr. Schiff. That was a very unfortunate attack on Ralph
    Nader.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
    will be in order.
        The gentleman from California.
        Mr. Schiff. Those comments about Ralph Nader are way out of
    line.
        Of course, it is not a coincidence that we are here in
    Manhattan. Instead, it is the GOP leadership in Congress doing
    what it has done best over the last six years, and that is to
    act as the criminal defense counsel for Donald J. Trump.
        Well, let me tell you this: Donald Trump doesn't need the
    lawyers on this Committee to be his criminal defense lawyer. He
    has plenty of those already.
        Nor is that the role of Congress. Quite the opposite. Our
    role should be to defend the rule of law, not tear it down. We
    should be defending the principle that no one is above the law,
    not attempting to establish a new principle that if are you
    politically powerful enough you get a pass. We should be
    defending the independence of the grand jury and the safety of
    a public servant enforcing the law, not adding to the dangers
    to both.
        The Manhattan District Attorney has the burden of proving
    Donald Trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A jury of
    ordinary citizens will have the responsibility of determining
    whether he has met that burden. That this process will be the
    same for a former President as it would be for his lawyer or
    his driver or his doorman or his neighbor is the strength of a
    democracy, not its weakness.
        The first thing Chair Jordan said today was that this
    hearing is about the administration of justice. More
    accurately, it is about an effort to interfere with the
    administration of justice.
        He said that, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are
    being weighed down by politics. They are, but only today and by
    this Committee's actions in trying to intimidate the Manhattan
    DA for having the audacity to believe that in America being
    rich, being powerful, even being President of the United States
    does not entitle you to violate the law with impunity.
        There was a time in America when both parties used to
    believe in the rule of law, but, sadly, those days are over.
    One of America's two great political parties believes that
    political might makes right. More than right, it means that you
    are beyond the reach of the law and beyond accountability. The
    more power, the less justice. This is not democracy. This is
    the antithesis of democracy.
        I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman
    yields back.
        The gentleman from Arizona is recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate all our
    witnesses being here today. Thank you for sharing your
    compelling stories.
        I would just say, Mr. Borgen, after hearing what you've
    heard today, I think you probably understand why it's real
    tough to sit down and have a logical, cogent argument on how we
    might jointly, with nonpartisan affiliation, try to solve so
    many problems. What do you think?
        Mr. Borgen. It's funny Mr. Schiff sits there and talks
    about you guys, Republicans, about Trump. Hey, while Trump was
    in office, he's been holding hearings trying to get him out for
    four years.
        So, I don't think you have the right to say that. You
    politicized when you were in power. You tried to get Trump out.
    You couldn't get him out. Let's face reality. You tried. The
    dossier was a fake, everything what it was. You tried to get
    him. He's sitting there laughing. That's very nice.
        The other Democrats are telling us that we're all props for
    sitting here. Please don't talk down to us. It's really not
    nice.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Thank you very much.
        So, I wanted to just--read some--these are not by a
    Republican. These aren't from Republican Members of this
    Committee. These are just comments here. This is what an
    individual said:

            I would add that, you know, is it's not so much from
            necessarily Federal funding, but it's something that I do want
            to spend more time on and focus on and use the plight--use the
            pulpit of representing the district in public safety.

    I think a lot of people walk around this city very scared right
    now, and the violent crime wave is very concerning. This
    individual also said: ``I think people are scared to go on the
    subway in the whole district.'' I've heard it from all over the
    place, from the wealthy. The wealthy areas in Tribeca to
    Chinatown to Borough Park to Sunset Park. I think a lot of
    people are afraid. He also said: ``I'm very concerned about the
    safety in the city.'' He also said:

            I've been a part of this community defending the victims and
            trying to protect the public for my whole career. And I think
            that those experiences resonate with people in different ways
            for different reasons.

    We can't allow people to just continue to cycle through the
    system because it's demoralizing to the cops, and it gives
    everyone a perception of danger. He also said:

            Whether or not the data says that it's safe or not, there is a
            perception in the city that it is not safe, and one of the
            reasons for that is the perpetual recidivism that is going on.

    He also said, quote:

            You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've
            got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to
            remote place and shot. There's an insecurity not felt in 25
            years. It's scary to me and far away the No. 1 issue.

        That didn't come from anybody on this side of the aisle. It
    didn't even come from any of you at the table. It came from Mr.
    Goldman over there. We sit in his district. He knows that
    there's a crime problem.
        We've been hearing about a study. Let me refer you to the
    Heritage study that my colleague referred to, and I ask for its
    admission into the record.
        Chair Jordan. Without objection.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Quote:

            When you remove the crime-infested, homicide-riddled cities
            from the State murder rate featured in the Third Wave study you
            dramatically lower the murder rate for that State, upending
            their conclusions--his conclusions--and exposing the piece for
            what it really is: A straightforward attempt at political
            projection dressed up as a study.

    This was coauthored by Mr. Kessler.
        That's what you've been hearing about to rebut the stories
    and the facts of the lives of the victims and the witnesses and
    those who live in this city today.
        Mr. Holden, why won't your family take the subway, the mass
    transit system in this city?
        Mr. Holden. What they've experienced--when my daughter took
    the subway the other day for the first time, she says: ``I'm
    not going back, because I felt unsafe. People talk to
    themselves. People screaming. It is terrible.''
        By the way, if you want to cherry pick numbers on the other
    side--and I'm a Democrat, but I'm against what I've heard about
    these stats. Downloaded from the NYPD this morning: 25 percent
    increase in all the seven major crimes in New York City in a
    two-year period, 26 percent in a 13-year period for Manhattan
    North. Manhattan South, 59 percent increase in a two-year
    period in the seven major crimes, 17 percent in the 13-year
    period.
        For all of New York City--and this, again, is from NYPD, so
    cherry pick your own numbers, but this is overall--45 percent
    increase in the two-year period in crime in the seven major
    crimes and a 23 percent in the 13-year.
        So, this is what we're facing, and this is why we go to
    work. We fought so hard in the nineties to stop this crime wave
    that we had in New York City, and we did it, but now it's being
    rolled back to the bad old days.
        Mr. Biggs. I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman yields
    back.
        Let me just before going to Mr. Cicilline, we've been at
    this two hours. Are the witnesses fine? Because we'll keep
    going, but if you need a break, just please let us know.
        The gentleman from Rhode Island is recognized for five
    minutes.
        Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, I yield 30 seconds to Mr. Goldman
    from New York.
        Mr. Goldman. I appreciate Mr. Biggs' reference to some of
    the concerns that we have about public safety because it is
    something that is shared across the aisle.
        The problem is that you are using this as a political stunt
    unrelated to real concerns about public safety around this
    country. Manhattan has the sixth fewest murders out of the top
    50 cities in this country. So, we all know why you're here. So,
    don't play the political games. You want to have a meaningful
    conversation? Let's talk.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Cicilline. I want to thank the witnesses for being here
    today and, of course, sharing some very painful stories about
    your loss. I want to start by emphasizing that keeping
    Americans safe is one of the most, if not the most, important
    responsibilities that we have in government. It's one of our
    most important callings as lawmakers. I was mayor of a city and
    presided over the lowest crime rate in 30 years serving as a
    public safety commissioner. So, I understand this very deeply.
        My colleagues, sadly, are not here to meaningfully work on
    public safety solutions. This hearing was called for a purpose,
    to intimidate a district attorney for doing his job and
    upholding the rule of law.
        You know how I know this? Because our colleagues
    consistently vote against laws that would increase public
    safety and ignore facts on what actually decreases crime. Gun
    violence is now the leading cause of death of children in
    America, and it kills 40,000 Americans a year.
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
        Would the gentleman suspend just for a second?
        Mr. Cicilline. I'd ask that the clock stop, please.
        Chair Jordan. Yes, the clock stopped. We'll be happy to do
    that.
        We need to stop the conversations over here. The gentleman
    deserves to be heard. The Committee guests will please refrain
    from talking and chatting so that Mr. Cicilline can make his
    presentation and ask his questions.
        The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Gun violence is now the leading cause of death of children
    in America and kills 40,000 Americans a year. My colleagues
    vote repeatedly against even the most commonsense gun violence
    prevention measures.
        They vote against getting assault weapons off the streets,
    despite the previous assault weapons ban that drastically
    reduced gun violence. They vote against alerting people to
    active shooters. They vote against safe storage and red flag
    laws. They vote against community-based crime prevention
    programs. They vote against background checks. The list goes on
    and on.
        More than that, they brought us here today to attack a
    district attorney who has actually seen a decrease in violent
    crime during his tenure--all because he dared to hold Donald
    Trump accountable.
        So, please spare me this suggestion that this is about a
    sincere interest in finding solutions to crime. This is about
    your agenda to earn the admiration and support and good wishes
    of the former President of the United States.
        I, for one, would actually like to hear about some actual
    solutions to public safety and particularly to gun violence in
    our communities.
        That brings me to my first question: Ms. Fischer, how do
    our gun laws, or lack thereof, contribute to America's gun
    violence epidemic? Is the rate of gun violence in this country
    and the rate of gun death comparable in any other developed
    country in the world?
        Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
        The gun violence rate in the United States is 26 times
    higher than every other high-income country. So, we are
    comparatively a much more dangerous place to live. Though
    violent crime--and I strongly push forward that gun violence is
    violent crime and should be considered as a part of this
    hearing. Violent crime is going down in New York City,
    according to law enforcement's own data.
        However, we could be doing so much more to ensure that New
    Yorkers are protected, and all Americans are protected by
    enacting comprehensive universal background checks, by having a
    licensing system and requiring a permit to purchase. We could
    also be banning the assault weapons that are most commonly used
    in mass shootings that are killing our children every day.
        Mr. Cicilline. One of the things I think that Congress has
    a responsibility to look at, although we don't have
    jurisdiction over State criminal prosecutions, obviously, or
    local prosecutions, what is the evidence with respect to the
    focus on exclusively arrests and incarceration, but how do we
    prevent crimes? What are the good strategies?
        Because, frankly, by the time someone is a victim of a
    crime, we've already failed. Our goal should be to prevent
    crime. So, what does the evidence say with respect to those two
    different strategies?
        Ms. Fischer. We need to be investing in prevention, largely
    because there are so many guns that are being trafficked from
    out of State. We need to be investing in our communities.
    That's with resources toward community violence intervention
    strategies and prevention programs, including in schools, more
    trauma support for victims, more resources, better housing.
        All those issues in terms of the inequities that are
    impacting especially impoverished Black and Brown communities
    in this country and in this city need to be addressed as a
    public health crisis, and we need to be investing in
    prevention.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
        With that, I yield back, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields
    back.
        The gentleman, Mr. Tiffany, is recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, would you rather have sympathy for the
    police, or would you rather have respect from elected leaders?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, respect and sympathy. It's a very
    difficult time. In my 40 years now, this is probably the most
    difficult time in policing that I've ever seen. Yes, respect is
    important, of course.
        Mr. Tiffany. Do soft-on-crime policies lead to less gun
    violence?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. I believe so, yes.
        Mr. Tiffany. So, you believe going soft on crime is going
    to cause there to be less gun violence in your city?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. No, not less. Soft on crime is going to
    cause more gun violence.
        Mr. Tiffany. OK. I'll State it this way then: Do soft-on-
    crime policies lead to more gun violence?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes.
        Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame, the Ranking Member
    said this city is safer. Is this city safer, in your mind, Ms.
    Harrison?
        Ms. Harrison. No. I have a lot of friends through my
    advocacy that live here that are considering moving their
    entire families.
        Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Brame, is this city safer under District
    Attorney Bragg?
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. There are all kinds of criminal
    elements roaming the street, free to do whatever they want.
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, the District Attorney's Office
    conceded they used $5,000 in Federal funds, which are
    authorized by us here, for purposes other than fighting violent
    crime here in Manhattan.
        Do you agree with the District Attorney's decision to do
    that?
        Mr. Holden. No, I don't. I disagree with most of what DA
    Bragg is about, especially the soft on crime.
        What's happened in New York City, the reason why our
    crime--and it's not going down, it's going up if you look at
    the trends. We have the lowest incarceration rate of any major
    city in the United States. I'll repeat that: The lowest
    incarceration rate of let's say 40 of the biggest cities. New
    York City has the lowest. That's because Mayor de Blasio before
    Mayor Adams started releasing everyone from jail.
        So, of course, crime was going to go up. It skyrocketed in
    2020. So, that's the reason. We still, I believe we have to
    arrest more people--DA Bragg will disagree--and they should go
    to jail when they commit a crime.
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, so there's this Federal funding
    that comes in and it's not being used to fight violent crime.
    As an elected Representative, do you view it as inappropriate
    that those of us that are responsible for those dollars going
    to fighting crime using Federal funds, is it inappropriate for
    us to review how those dollars are being spent?
        Mr. Holden. Yes, certainly we should review it, yes.
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, have you been asked to be on any
    of the major networks to deliver your message? Have you been
    asked, for example, to be on CNN to deliver your message?
        Mr. Holden. I've been asked not from CNN, but I have been
    asked on other major networks, yes.
        Mr. Tiffany. You've shared those comments.
        Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, have you been asked to be on one
    of the major networks to tell your story?
        Ms. Brame. Not CNN.
        Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison?
        Ms. Harrison. No, not CNN, not MSNBC. They refuse to even
    acknowledge that victims are a part of this hearing.
        Mr. Tiffany. So, let's talk about--we hear percentages.
    Time after time we're hearing percentages. In 2022, as a result
    of a seven-percent increase in rapes, that's 110 more people
    that got raped here in New York City. Those are almost all
    women, I'm sure, 110. Auto theft, 3,256 more car jackings here
    in New York as a result of this soft on crime. Transit crimes,
    people being pushed off subways, right? Five hundred and
    twenty-one more people; 521 more people. Thirty percent more,
    that's 521 more people. That's what we're seeing, ladies and
    gentlemen. These are real people that are being harmed.
        I just want to conclude with this, Mr. Chair. I'm so glad
    we're having this first hearing in New York, but I want you to
    come to my State. I want you to come to Milwaukee where we had
    a District Attorney, here's his quote when he started out:

            Is there going to be an individual I divert or put into a
            treatment program who's going to go out and kill somebody? You
            bet.

        Milwaukee has 10 percent of the population, and they have
    25 percent of the crime.
        Mr. Kessler, that's the problem is the Soros prosecutors
    are not doing their job. In Wisconsin, now we've got a Soros
    Supreme Court justice. The people of Wisconsin better hang on
    because violent crime is going to get worse. Come to Milwaukee,
    Mr. Chair, for the next hearing.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time is expired.
        Ms. Scanlon is recognized for five minutes.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Johnson.
        Our constituents elect us to make their lives better. They
    send us to Washington to work on the issues that impact
    American families, whether it's healthcare, jobs, the cost of
    prescription drugs, infrastructure, clean air and water,
    climate rescue and, of course, safe communities and schools.
        Every day in Congress, we are seeing the right-wing
    extremists who control the House failing all of us, choosing
    publicity over progress, choosing politics over people, and
    choosing protecting the disgraced and now-indicted former
    President rather than protecting our democracy.
        Today, at the urging of the former President and his
    lawyers, the Chair has dragged the entire House Judiciary
    Committee to New York, inserting the Federal Government into a
    purely State and local matter with no credible pretense of
    jurisdiction.
        He's making the American taxpayer and especially the New
    Yorkers who he claims to be so concerned about, making those
    taxpayers pay for this foolishness. This isn't governance. It's
    not working for the American people. It's grandstanding. It's a
    stunt. Just look at all the cameras here. Every second of it is
    preventing us from being able to do the real work that the
    people who elected us expect us to do in Congress.
        To our witnesses here today who shared their pain and
    trauma in being victims of crime and violence, I am so sorry
    for the impact that has had on you and your families. Anyone
    listening to you has to be moved by what you've experienced. I
    applaud your courage in trying to take that pain and move to
    change things going forward.
        I fear that you have been revictimized by this hearing
    because this hearing is not going to provide that change. It's
    not a serious effort to make our communities safer. Our
    Republican colleagues aren't in New York City to prevent crime.
    They're here to protect someone who's been charged with
    committing crimes.
        How do we know that? Look at the time, place, and manner of
    this hearing. We know that the timing isn't a coincidence
    because, as soon as it became obvious that the Manhattan
    District Attorney was getting ready to charge Mr. Trump with
    crimes, Mr. Trump's lawyers sent a letter to the Chair telling
    him to use the full powers of Congress to go after the
    Manhattan DA.
        We know that the place is important because the choice of
    place for this hearing isn't a coincidence. It's about
    protecting Mr. Trump because it's being held in the city where
    Mr. Trump was indicted and arrested just two weeks ago. If this
    hearing were focused on fighting crime, as several people have
    mentioned, there are other jurisdictions that have much higher
    rates of crime.
        As to the manner of this hearing, we know that it's about
    protecting Mr. Trump because it's being led by the disgraced
    former President's closest allies, the ones who benefit the
    most if he can beat the criminal charges here in New York or if
    they can intimidate the Manhattan DA or the other prosecutors
    across the country who are investigating other alleged crimes.
        Crime prevention is a serious topic, and it deserves
    serious discussion, but that's not what this hearing is about.
    Instead, we're seeing a circus, a performance by partisan
    politicians who have hitched their wagons to the Trump train.
        So, I and my colleagues refuse to sit idly by while
    families across this country, from Alabama to Louisville to
    Nashville to Uvalde to Buffalo to Boulder, while they're
    mourning the loss of their loved ones to gun violence. We stand
    ready to pass legislation to address the serious issues facing
    all Americans if our Republican colleagues will let us.
        Now, Ms. Fischer, you and several others have mentioned the
    Iron Pipeline, the route through which many of the crime guns
    in States like New York and Pennsylvania are acquired. Just
    last year, the ATF intercepted 400 illegal guns from southern
    States that were being sent to my community in Philadelphia.
        Can you speak to the impact of less gun laws in States that
    lack more specific gun laws, the impact that it has on gun
    violence in cities like New York, Pennsylvania, and
    Philadelphia?
        Ms. Fischer. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative.
        Because traffickers are able to easily and illegally obtain
    guns in States with weak gun laws, like Florida, Georgia, or
    the Carolinas, they are able to easily purchase lots of guns
    and traffic them into neighborhoods that have been
    disproportionately impacted by structural and systemic
    inequities for decades.
        We're talking about vulnerable communities that are already
    lacking in access to resources. Because of that, those guns are
    being used in crimes, and also because gun carrying is more
    likely when people feel afraid and they are feeling more
    powerful.
        Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] The gentlelady's time has
    expired.
        Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair, I would just seek unanimous consent
    to enter into the record a report entitled, ``Uncovering the
    truth about Pennsylvania crime guns.''
        Chair Jordan. Without objection.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Texas--
        Ms. Harrison. Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. They keep addressing
    us, the victims who are here to testify and make change--we're
    here to effectuate change--and then not allowing us to comment
    at all.
        Chair Jordan. If you can hang on just a second, Ms.
    Harrison. I'm sure Mr. Gooden will give you a chance to
    respond. The time belongs now to Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
        Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
        Ms. Brame, I heard you saying how disrespectful this was. I
    share your concerns. We're going to come back to you, but I'd
    first like to yield to the Chair.
        Chair Jordan. That's fine. I'll yield. Go to Ms. Harrison.
        Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I'm disgusted with what I'm seeing.
    This is a serious event. We've called you all in here to share
    your experience. We've been called jackbooted thugs by the
    opposing party for having this hearing. It's been called
    foolishness. I don't believe your stories are foolish.
        We've heard from the Congressman that represents this
    district just six months ago who said, quote:

            You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've
            got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to
            remote places and shot. There's an insecurity not felt here in
            25 years.

        If the local Congressman is saying that then, I don't
    believe you are crazy for saying the same things. I thank you
    all for being here.
        Ms. Brame, you've shared so much, and we thank you. Is
    there any further comments you'd like to have? We hear all the
    talk about the former President from the other side. This is
    not a political hearing, despite claims from the other side.
    I'll give you the floor.
        Ms. Brame. The only people I hear talking about politics or
    President Trump is from the other side. I don't hear no one, I
    don't hear any of these victims, I don't hear anyone else
    talking about President Trump except from the people from the
    other side. From the other side of where? The other side of the
    moon? The other side of the world? The other side, whatever
    that is.
        Let me tell you something, victims can care less about
    anyone's political ideology or party. Neither do criminals.
    They don't go up to a person and ask them if they're a Democrat
    or a Republican before they bust them in the head, OK, or
    before they push them in front of a train, before they stab
    them to death.
        These are real-life people that we're dealing with. We pay
    you guys. Our tax dollars pay you. You work for us. We do not
    work for you.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
    will be in order. The time belongs to the gentleman from Texas.
        Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I want to thank you again. While the
    other side wants you to stop talking, I hope you'll continue
    well after today.
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely, absolutely.
        Mr. Gooden. Thank you. I'll yield the balance of my time to
    the Chair.
        Chair Jordan. I was just going to say, Ms. Harrison, are
    you grandstanding?
        Ms. Harrison. No. It seems like, as Madeline mentioned,
    that the other side is here on taxpayer dollars. The least that
    they could do is listen to our side of it, ask us questions.
    They brought witnesses in to counter our horrific stories for
    their agenda.
        All they want to do is talk about gun legislation. Well,
    you can have all the gun legislation on the books, but if it's
    not enforced, which is what Alvin Bragg is doing, then it's not
    going to matter, and people are going to die. That's why we're
    here. I appreciate your oversight because we do need help. If
    they continue to ignore it, people are going to die.
        Chair Jordan. Is this Committee victimizing you, Ms. Brame,
    as the Democrats said?
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. This Committee has given me a
    platform, has given me a seat at the table to be able to tell
    my story and raise awareness for victims all over not just New
    York City but all over this country, especially from
    Philadelphia.
        Chair Jordan. Ms. Fischer, if guns are the problem, why
    didn't the Democrats fix it?
        Ms. Fischer. The Democrats have worked hard to pass
    comprehensive--
        Chair Jordan. Well, they had control. They controlled all
    the House and all the Senate. They still have the White House.
    Why didn't they fix it last Congress? If the answer is--
        Ms. Fischer. We need comprehensive gun violence prevention
    legislation to be passed, and this Congress has the ability and
    the capacity to do that.
        Chair Jordan. I was in the Congress last session. Mr.
    Nadler was the Chair.
        Ms. Fischer. So, we can do it now.
        Chair Jordan. They could have passed it. They didn't pass
    it.
        Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
        Ms. Fischer. You need Congress to go back to Washington and
    pass strong gun violence prevention legislation.
        Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
        Chair Jordan. No, I'm going to go to Mr. DiGiacomo.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, are you grandstanding?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Not at all. Honestly, I am here--
        Chair Jordan. You're representing the detectives of this
    great town, right?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Absolutely, and very proud of it. I am not
    here other than to ask for help. Someone just said that we
    can't do anything here. Well, if the people of the U.S.
    Congress can't do anything to help us, we're in a lot of
    trouble because there are some powerful people around this
    table that could help and stop the violence and make the
    streets safer for the people of New York City and the police
    officers and detectives that serve them. We're here for help.
    We need help.
        Chair Jordan. Thank you. I thank the gentleman from Texas,
    and the gentleman yields back.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Pennsylvania,
    Ms. Dean.
        Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank all the witnesses
    for being here today.
        Mr. Nadler. Would the gentlelady yield for a moment?
        Ms. Dean. Yes, Mr. Nadler.
        Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I just want to answer Mr. Jordan's
    question. Last year, when we were in control, the Democrats in
    the House passed very comprehensive gun control legislation.
    The Democrats in the Senate voted for very comprehensive gun
    control legislation. Because of the filibuster, you needed 60
    votes. We got no Republican votes, and that's why it didn't
    pass.
        I thank the gentlelady. I yield back.
        Ms. Dean. I echo the statistics that were just offered by
    the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler.
        Democrats have been working to reduce crime, to reduce gun
    violence crime wherever we can. Let me say everyone, I believe
    everyone in this room has sympathy for the horrific stories,
    the horrific losses of life, the horrific attacks, the anti-
    Semitic attack on your son. We have great sympathy. We hear
    you.
        You are properly raising your voices. Don't let anything
    that we have to say indicate that we don't think you should be
    lifting your voices. There is an underlying sham going on here.
    I know you don't like to hear it. Your voices are important.
    Two things can be true at the same time.
        We are not properly here. It is not our jurisdiction to
    oversee or to interfere with an independent District Attorney's
    Office. We are not properly here. This is not our jurisdiction.
    I wish--
        Ms. Harrison. None of us are asking you to interfere.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady controls the time.
        Ms. Dean. It is proper that you raise your voices, but it
    is hypocritical that we are here. If this Committee wants to do
    something about violence in this country, about the horrific
    losses of life, do something. Work on legislation with us.
        This weekend, two more mass shootings. Is that calling your
    attention? Are you up in arms to say, what in God's name can we
    do to reduce the slaughter of our children, your children, our
    children?
        It's the third Monday of April, and so far, this year more
    than 5,000 people have been killed by gun violence; another
    9,200 caught in the crossfire. Nearly 500 children and
    teenagers have died because of rampant gun violence. We know
    that number of families devastated, and lives forever altered
    is even larger. We're only in the fourth month.
        None of this is new. Hearing after hearing, one Congress to
    the next, the numbers keep repeating themselves. More than 200
    people a day shot; 40,000 people a year killed by guns. We know
    all this. Facts are supposed to influence action. Horrifying
    facts are supposed to elicit a response. Yet, my Republican
    colleagues prefer gesturing about violent crime rather than
    doing something about it.
        I'm reminded of the character in Succession, the late Logan
    Roy, said: ``You are not serious people.'' If you are serious
    about doing something about violence, gun violence, and other:

             . . . the House passed a universal background checks bill:
            Sixty-three percent of Republican gun owners support it, yet
            only eight of my Republican colleagues supported the bill; 202
            of them voted against it, including every Republican Member in
            this room.

    Again, not serious people.
        Assault weapons are the firearm of choice in mass
    shootings. The Democratic House last Congress voted to ban
    these weapons of war. Only two Republicans out of 211 voted for
    it. Neither is in this room today. When Senate Republicans were
    finally motivated to action by the horrific slaughter of babies
    in Uvalde, did my Republican colleagues here join? No, not a
    single one of them voted for the bipartisan Safer Communities
    Act.
        Make no mistake. If the concern about addressing violent
    crime addressed by my Republican colleagues was genuine, they
    would have acted. There would be more for us to be talking with
    you about here. We're only here today because Chair Jordan and
    his colleagues want to make a show of defending a former
    failed, twice-impeached, crooked President.
        This is not serious. Violent crime is a grave national
    issue. It demands serious consideration by legislators who want
    to make a difference and to save lives. That is reserved for
    us.
        I yield the remainder of my time to Mr. Goldman.
        Mr. Borgen. Can I ask you, why isn't anybody blaming the
    shooter? You're always blaming guns. No one blames the shooter.
    They're crazy people. Everybody blames the guns.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. Mr. Borgen,
    the Committee will be in order.
        The gentlelady had I believe like 18 seconds, and she'll be
    yielding to Mr. Goldman.
        Mr. Goldman. Yes.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Goldman. I want to be very clear to all of you, as
    reflected in my statements, that we are all very, very
    concerned about your stories. We are concerned about every
    victim. I was a prosecutor for 10 years. Victims' rights are
    essential.
        What we're talking about here is something that the State
    needs to deal with. The reason why we're saying this is a
    political theater is that we don't have jurisdiction to do
    anything about what you're concerned about. So, I just want you
    to understand that.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time is expired.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Oregon, Mr.
    Bentz.
        Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this
    hearing.
        Thank you, witnesses, for being here and sharing with us
    your incredibly challenging stories.
        Quote: ``The justice system is not cooperating.'' This is a
    quote from one of the retailers here in your town: ``The
    justice system is just not cooperating.'' It's getting to a
    point where you either have to padlock every item that has to
    be stolen or could be stolen or you have to fight back, and if
    you fight back, you take the risk of going to jail for
    protecting your property.
        That's one of the reasons we're here. Here's several more
    because I've heard a lot of suggestions that we're here for
    reasons having nothing to do with why I'm here.
        This city has 8.5 million people. That is twice what my
    State has. It has 58 million people within 250 miles. It is
    four million larger than our next largest city, which would be
    Louisiana. It has a GDP of $1.56 trillion. This is an asset we
    should be doing everything to protect, and particularly the
    people within it.
        Mr. Holden, drawing your attention to the next-to-last
    paragraph in your testimony, it appears that you believe that
    we in Congress can actually do something. You actually talk
    about what we might do.
        So, I would like you just to elaborate just a bit so that
    people aren't thinking that we're just here for show, we can
    actually do something. Can you go to that next-to-last
    paragraph and share your thoughts?
        Mr. Holden. Yes. When the public is not being protected,
    when we fear for our safety day in and day out, we lose our
    freedom. If Congress can't do something, then I don't think
    anyone can.
        You can do this with funding. You can do this with
    certainly Federal attorneys jumping in, prosecutors. There's a
    lot of things I think Congress can do. I'm here because--and as
    a Democrat, I don't agree with a lot of my party's stances on
    things, and I'm more of an independent person, but I've been on
    six years in the city council, and they've never held a hearing
    on victims' rights. They hold hearings on criminal rights and
    how they're not being treated properly. I get that; that's
    important to have. What about victims' rights? Six years on the
    city council, on the Public Safety Committee, not one hearing.
        Mr. Bentz. Mr. Holden, I'm going to interrupt, if I may.
    I'm going to stick with you, though.
        Because you also say in your letter--and this is a response
    to Ranking Member Nadler's questions about percentages and
    crime reduction, but you note in your testimony about cherry
    picking of statistics. So, I want you to talk about that for
    just for a second.
        You note that it's easy to twist these numbers around. I'm
    kind of reminded about something that was said a little
    earlier, that it's easy to focus on percentages, but we should
    be focusing on the real numbers, as Mr. Tiffany pointed out,
    the thousands when we talk about percentages as though it's
    meaningless. Tell me what you say in your letter.
        Mr. Holden. It's a real thing because I have businesses,
    and I have one individual who owns four gas stations in my
    district. He's from Southeast Asia. He's an immigrant. He is
    living the American Dream until recently, until 2019 is when
    the bail reform package went through the State. He says: ``A
    good day for me in my four gas stations is when I'm not held
    up. We consider it a good day.''
        He's losing 2,000 or 3,000 dollars a day in the four gas
    stations with petty theft and being held up.
        It's a serious issue. We fought to get crime--we had 17
    straight years in New York city of crime reduction up until
    2019, when they pushed the bail reform and discovery through
    the State. Now crime is going up. Again, 13 years we've had an
    increase in crime.
        So, anybody cherry picking those numbers, anybody who is a
    real New Yorker knows that we had low crime, and we were proud
    of that. We were the safest city in the United States. Not
    anymore.
        Mr. Bentz. Thank you. We're just a few seconds left, and I
    just want to say that I'm happy we're here in New York, but for
    those of you who want to see the consequences of lax
    prosecution practices, come to Portland, Oregon, and look at
    what's happened to that beautiful city where I went to law
    school years ago, and you can wander around in downtown
    Portland without fear of anything happening. The restaurants
    were great. The cultural scene was great.
        In the last three years, that has changed so dramatically
    it is ridiculous. If you want to see what happens when you
    don't prosecute people for throwing bricks through windows,
    starting fires in downtown, running everybody else out, come to
    Portland. It's so incredibly sad.
        I'm going to come back to New York for a moment. My last
    little phrase here is, despite what you folks are enduring here
    as a result of runaway progressivism, you still have these
    wonderful people, the police working for you, and I'm happy for
    that.
        I tell you, as I sit here listening to Democrat politicians
    use rampant crime and violence to justify more restrictions on
    possession of firearms, I must say, please, let's turn our
    attention to the good things we can do in Congress.
        With that, I thank you all and yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. I thank the
    gentleman.
        The gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Ivey, is recognized for
    five minutes.
        Mr. Ivey. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Just a brief response to that. I mean, yes, we're thinking
    about gun control and trying to reduce gun violence, because of
    Nashville and Louisville and Alabama yesterday. So, it seems to
    me that it's unsustainable. We need to do something to address
    it. You know, I believe the Second Amendment is important, but
    I think protecting second-graders from being killed is
    important as well.
        Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and Mr. Borgen, I want to commend
    you. I was a prosecutor for 12 years, four as a Federal
    prosecutor, eight as a local prosecutor in Maryland, which is
    kind of the birthplace of the victims' rights movement.
        So, I understand that what you're doing and the role that
    you play. In fact, it really transformed the criminal justice
    system in the nineties and in the 2000s, and I encourage you to
    continue on. You don't need that. I can tell just by what I've
    heard from you today, you're going to sustain it and keep
    fighting on behalf of your loved ones, but I commend you for
    what you've done.
        I did want to say this with respect to whether this is
    serious or not. I'm not going to look in people's hearts and
    try and judge the motives for whether these hearings are
    serious or not or what's behind them, but I'll say this: We've
    got Republican colleagues who have introduced legislation to
    eliminate the ATF, eliminate the FBI. Mr. Trump called for
    defunding the Department of Justice and the FBI.
        As a former Federal prosecutor, I can tell you that, if you
    get rid of those three agencies, there's no Federal mechanism
    or arm to actually prosecute violent crime at the Federal
    level. That means terrorism. That means gangs. That means
    multi-State issues.
        The big takedown of the Sinaloa Cartel on Friday, I think
    the reason we were able to do that was because we had a strong
    Federal Government that was able to cross Federal lines and
    international lines and complete those prosecutions. So, I
    certainly oppose the defund the Federal law enforcement arms
    that we've had discussions about.
        With respect to the funding in general, I think even at the
    local level the Federal Government can and has been helpful and
    should be more helpful too from a funding standpoint.
        I think it's right we can't really meddle in local
    prosecutions per se, but funding for victims' rights, for
    resources for training, for hiring and retention of police
    officers, because I know police departments are competing now
    for a shortage of officers, so I think it's important for us to
    try and step in in that way.
        I would encourage my colleagues on the other side to speak
    about the specific types of proposals they would put forward at
    the Federal level to address the local crime issues that you're
    talking about here today because I haven't heard any so far.
        With that, I'll yield the remainder of my time to Mr.
    Goldman.
        Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Ivey.
        Mr. Borgen, I understand that your son was the victim of an
    anti-Semitic attack. I'm terribly sorry to hear this. Anti-
    Semitism hits all of us, regardless of party.
        Now that we have recently learned that George Santos, who
    not only remains in Congress but is announcing his reelection
    campaign today, is not actually Jewish, the Ranking Member and
    I are the only Jewish members from the entire State of New
    York. We are deeply concerned about anti-Semitism in New York,
    which has increased more than 400 percent in the past eight
    years.
        Now, today we've already heard two Members of the majority
    reference what one called the Sorosization of criminal justice,
    the criminal justice system, which is, of course, a reference
    to George Soros, a Holocaust survivor who lived the American
    Dream. Many more have said the same.
        My constituents are very concerned that these smears
    related to Mr. Soros-supported prosecutors are anti-Semitic. Do
    you believe they're anti-Semitic?
        Mr. Borgen. Well, here's my answer to that. I know Soros is
    Jewish. He can't be anti-Semitic. I can't believe that,
    especially--
        Mr. Goldman. No, what people say when they use Soros.
        Mr. Borgen. Soros is politics. He's just a liberal lefty
    politician. I don't think it has nothing to do with what his
    beliefs are. What he wants to create, whatever he wants to
    create, it's his business.
        Mr. Goldman. All right. I appreciate that. I don't have a
    lot of time, I'm sorry.
        Mr. Borgen. Mark Levin, who just got elected from Lower
    Manhattan, got a petition signed with 29 signatures protesting
    this conference. I don't know if you're aware of it.
        Mr. Goldman. Can I just reclaim my time, because I only
    have 20 seconds.
        I want to mention that when I was walking in here today,
    there was a man outside with a sign. I would just like to hold
    this sign up.
        Mr. Borgen. I saw it.
        Mr. Goldman. You saw it, right? There's a Star of David
    with two-dollar signs and Soros.
        Mr. Borgen. That's disgusting.
        Mr. Goldman. Would you say that's anti-Semitic?
        Mr. Borgen. It's 100 percent anti-Semitic, and it's
    disgusting.
        Mr. Goldman. Right.
        Mr. Borgen. It's disgusting.
        Mr. Goldman. I yield back my time.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
    Cline.
        Mr. Cline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        I want to echo the comments from Mr. Holden. Your
    allegiance is to your constituents. Each one of us is here
    because of our constituents. Our allegiance is to our
    constituents as well.
        My constituents live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.
    It feels about as far away from New York City sometimes as you
    can get. The floor that I was on in my hotel last night was
    taller than any building in my entire home county, Botetourt
    County.
        Our hearts are with the people of New York City. Our hearts
    are with the victims of these crimes that are being committed
    against the people of New York City. Every crime has a victim.
    It's not just about numbers. It's about real people, as Mr.
    Tiffany was saying.
        We are hearing some of the stories. I want to thank you all
    for being brave to come here and share your stories with us.
    We're grateful to you. My constituents are scared because
    they're watching what's happening in New York City, and they
    know that the Shenandoah Valley, if they adopt the wrong
    policies, if they elect the wrong prosecutors, their lives
    could turn for the worse and their cities and counties could be
    full of crime as well.
        The policies that have been adopted in New York City are
    policies that were just adopted in Virginia. When Democrats
    took over the House and Senate and the Governor's Mansion
    between 2019-2021, they reversed policies that were put in
    place in 1995 that abolished parole, instituted mandatory
    minimum sentences and presumptions against bail. Those are all
    gone now.
        We're worried, quite frankly, in Virginia, because we see
    the impact of those policies here in New York, along with the
    falling apart of what I consider to be a three-legged stool.
    When it comes to the fight against crime, you need three legs
    of a stool: You need police who are going to arrest, you need
    prosecutors who are going to prosecute, and you need judges who
    are going to put people in jail.
        Here in New York, you don't have those three legs. I'll let
    you decide how many legs you have and how strong those are.
    When you get rid of the policies like a presumption against
    bail that we got rid of in Virginia, like the bail policies
    that you have here, the ending of cash bail here in New York
    City, it's like termites eating away at that stool.
        So, no matter how strong you have in terms of your mayor,
    who's a former police chief, or your police chief now, if you
    lose those legs or if you have the stool being eaten away, you
    see the spike in crime that's happened. We have a spike in
    crime here in New York City: 1,500 rapes, up seven percent,
    robberies up 26 percent, felony assaults up 13 percent,
    burglaries up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26 percent, auto
    thefts up 32 percent, all accounting for a 23-percent increase
    in major crimes in just the last year.
        So, you have a problem in New York, one that we're afraid
    could spread to other places, like my area of Virginia. We
    talked about the use of taxpayer dollars.
        Ms. Brame, you talked about the lack of services that you
    received. So, we inquired about how many taxpayer dollars go to
    New York City and to Alvin Bragg's office. The DA's Office
    receives $204,730 in Federal grant money during current award
    period from the Department of Justice's Justice Assistance
    Grant Program, which is subgranted to the city of New York,
    goes toward addressing violent and other felony crimes in our
    jurisdiction.
        More interestingly and more to your point, the DA's Office
    received $583,111 in Federal grant money yearly this past year
    from the Victims of Crime Victim and Witness Assistance Grant
    Program, which is subgranted through the New York State Office
    of Victim Services. Use of these funds is to be used to provide
    information to victims and their families related to the
    prosecution of cases and assisting victims with understanding
    the criminal justice system. Over half a million dollars
    sitting in Alvin Bragg's office to help people like you.
        Do you feel like you got help from Alvin Bragg as the case
    was going forward?
        Ms. Brame. No, I received no help from his office. Me and
    my family, we were treated like garbage. I can't describe it
    any more than what I have already. It was the most horrific
    experience that I've ever experienced. It was just bad.
        Mr. Cline. Were you alerted? When the plea deals were cut
    for two of those offenders, were you alerted to those plea
    deals when they were cut?
        Ms. Brame. No.
        Mr. Cline. Were you allowed to put a victim statement into
    the record?
        Ms. Brame. Not for Mary Saunders, not upon her sentencing.
    For Travis Stewart, I did and for the other two. They dismissed
    those gang assault and those murder indictments behind my back.
        Mr. Cline. That's abhorrent and did not do justice to you
    or to the son that you lost, and we apologize.
        Ms. Brame. Not at all, not at all.
        Mr. Cline. I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        Before recognizing the gentleman from New York, I see we're
    joined by one of our other colleagues, the gentlelady from here
    in New York City, Staten Island.
        Ms. Malliotakis, thank you for joining us and for your
    concern about what's happening here.
        We now recognize, pursuant to the agreement reached with
    Mr. Nadler's staff, the gentleman from New York for 2\1/2\
    minutes.
        Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair, again, and thank you,
    Mr. Johnson for giving me some previous time.
        I want to continue my previous statement. Back in the late
    eighties and nineties, this was a tough town. It was tough to
    live here. Crime was really very violent. As I said earlier,
    during that period, I had the opportunity to work for a victim
    services agency, providing services for crime victims. I was
    also the president of a 34-precinct community council.
        If there's one thing that I really learned during those two
    decades was that you cannot really simply talk about crime
    without talking about guns. You just can't do it because 80
    percent of the homicides are committed by guns. Now, we're not
    minimizing the other 20 percent. They're also equally
    important. Eighty percent are committed by guns.
        This past Easter Sunday, a young man gets shot and killed
    on 137th Street, not too far from where Mr. Alba used to work.
    Why? A gun. Just this weekend in Alabama, just this weekend,
    this Saturday, four people shot and killed. With what? A gun. A
    shooter in a Louisville bank kills five people. With what? With
    a gun. The horrific elementary school shooting in Tennessee
    that left six people killed, including three children. With
    what? With a gun. Some of my colleagues after that shooting
    wore their AR-15 pins on their lapels and tie clips--I think
    mocking the death of those innocent kids.
        So, a gun is the common denominator in eight out of 10
    homicides. How can we take that away? We cannot do that. We
    must continue to fight for commonsense gun law. You know why?
    I'll ask you all that are here today. You want to find out why
    guns are not being talked about? Follow the money. Follow the
    money.
        Go into each and every one of our campaign accounts and
    figure out who's getting money from the NRA. Just follow the
    money. That's a phrase that's usually used on a common basis
    here in New York City. Very simple. Who is the NRA supporting?
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired. The
    gentleman yields back.
        The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Fry, is recognized.
        Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for
    holding this hearing today in one of the most iconic cities in
    the world, New York City.
        I want to especially thank the witnesses, the victims, for
    your bravery today. It's not easy to come here to talk about
    this in the public square, but thank you for doing that.
        When people think of the United States, they think of this
    city, as was talked about earlier. If you can make it here, you
    can make it anywhere. Underneath all of those twinkling lights,
    something is not right in New York City. Shootings in Times
    Square, robberies in broad daylight, stabbings on the subway.
        I got into a cab yesterday. The gentleman who was driving
    had been doing it for 25 years. Without knowing who I was or
    why I was here, he proceeded to talk about the city. He said:
    ``This city has changed.''
        I asked him what he meant by that. He immediately started
    talking about the crime: ``It's gotten so bad. It's out of
    control.''
        This, unfortunately, is what we get in Joe Biden's America
    and Alvin Bragg's New York City. To the good people of New
    York, we hear you. We are here in New York today because we
    want to hear from you, and we hope that your local leaders
    start to listen to you as well.
        When the hearing was first noticed, the District Attorney
    released a statement that we were coming to the, and I quote,
    ``safest big city in America and that this hearing was a
    political stunt.''
        You want to know the real political stunt? Politicians in
    New York and other places continually pushing failed policies,
    despite knowing that they don't work. Let's talk about this for
    a second.
        According to the New York Police Department, in Alvin
    Bragg's first year in public office in 2022, rapes are up seven
    percent, felony assaults rose 13 percent, robberies spiked 26
    percent, burglaries were up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26
    percent, auto theft has risen 32 percent. There were 170
    felonies in New York City in 2022 alone, the most since 2006.
    Does that sound like the safest big city in America? I think
    not.
        The question is why? New York State eliminated cash bail
    for most crimes, tying the hands of judges and law enforcement.
    Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo,'' which outlined his office's
    position that he would not prosecute certain types of crimes.
    In addition, rather than approach each case on the facts of the
    offense committed, his office is focused on how much money you
    make, your circumstances, or your immigration status before
    deciding whether to charge a crime. Of course, as was already
    talked about, defunding $1 billion out of the New York Police
    Department's budget.
        Fifty-two percent of felony charges are downgraded to
    misdemeanors in this District Attorney's Office, the highest
    number in years. Of the felonies they actually decide to
    prosecute, his office was only successful in securing the
    conviction on 50 percent of those, the lowest number in years.
    On misdemeanors, 29 percent of misdemeanor charges resulted in
    conviction.
        If you listen to the District Attorney, he sounds and acts
    more like a public defender than a prosecutor. If you want to
    defend criminals, be a public defender. If you want to change
    policy, run for the State assembly.
        Instead of partnering with the New York Police Department
    to prosecute these crimes, he seems hostile. It's no wonder
    that officers in the New York Police Department are resigning
    at a record rate. According to a recent article by the New York
    Post, there is a 117-percent increase in cops resigning in 2022
    alone. That's the most since right after 9/11.
        Regarding New York's bail law, the John Jay College of
    Criminal Justice found that approximately 72 percent of violent
    felony offenders who were released without bail were re-
    arrested.
        Recidivism is so bad in New York that 327 individuals were
    arrested for more than 6,000 crimes of retail theft. That's not
    giving somebody a second chance. That's letting them do the
    same thing over and over again to about 20 times and still
    letting them off the hook. If at first you don't succeed, try,
    try again. Maybe the 21st time they'll wake up.
        From an interview in January, District Attorney Bragg said
    he knows what's going on in the streets. Does he? It doesn't
    sound like it.
        Ms. Brame, I want to start with you and then to the other
    victims. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding citizens
    or criminals?
        Ms. Brame. Can you repeat that, please?
        Mr. Fry. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding
    citizens or criminals?
        Ms. Brame. Oh, absolutely criminals, 100 percent.
        Mr. Fry. Ms. Harrison?
        Ms. Harrison. The criminals.
        Mr. Fry. Mr. Borgen, the same question?
        Mr. Borgen. Unfortunately, it's the criminals who are
    getting all the perks.
        Mr. Fry. Ms. Brame, have you spoken to the District
    Attorney about your son's case?
        Ms. Brame. Absolutely not, no response.
        Mr. Fry. If you could speak to him today about it, what
    would you say?
        Ms. Brame. I would demand that he reopen that gang assault
    and that murder case against Mary Saunders and Travis Stewart.
    If no one is above the law, prove it. Prove it by prosecuting
    them. Bring that case to trial.
        Mr. Fry. Thank you for your time today.
        Mr. Chair, I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        The gentleman from New York is recognized for 2\1/2\
    minutes.
        Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Ms. Brame, you said earlier that you are only hearing about
    Donald Trump from one side and not the other. I want to tell
    you that's very, very intentional because they know that they
    are using taxpayer money to defend a private citizen in his own
    criminal investigation and that is an abuse of their power.
        The day before this investigation began, public reporting
    revealed that Donald Trump and his legal team directed House
    Republicans to initiate an investigation into Alvin Bragg.
        They're now scrambling to justify this investigation with
    after-the-fact explanations, including the preposterous
    explanation that he spent $5,000 of Federal money on this
    years-long investigation. They have spent many multiples of
    that amount of money on this hearing alone to hold it in
    Manhattan.
        Now, I've asked the Chair and other Members of House
    leadership to tell the American public what kind of collusion
    they have been doing with Donald Trump to use the power of this
    Committee and of this Congress to interfere in this
    prosecution. They have thus far refused. We will learn about
    that collusion because the Manhattan District Attorney has a
    lawsuit against the Chair, and they will be able to compel
    disclosure of the communication and coordination as part of
    that lawsuit. That's why we are here, and that's what we want
    to emphasize to you.
        We're not insulting you. Your experiences are devastating.
    The problem is, is that this is a charade to cover up for an
    abuse of power that they are going around talking incessantly
    outside of this hearing about Donald Trump, and the purpose of
    this hearing is to cover up for what they know to be an
    inappropriate investigation.
        Now, I look forward--many of you in New York City--
        Ms. Brame. Can I respond to you, please?
        Mr. Goldman. Not right now, because I only have 20 seconds.
    I'm sorry. I do want--
        Ms. Brame. Don't insult my intelligence, that you're not
    going to do.
        Chair Jordan. Hang on. The gentleman's time.
        Ms. Brame. You're trying to insult me like I'm not aware of
    what's going on here, OK? I'm fully aware of what's going on
    here. OK?
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady will suspend.
        The gentleman gets another 15 seconds.
        Mr. Goldman. Thank you.
        Ms. Brame. That's why I walked away from the plantation of
    the Democratic Party.
        Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
        Mr. Goldman. Ms. Brame, what I was about to say is that, as
    a Representative of this city, I'm looking forward to working
    with you, with Ms. Harrison, Mr. Holden, Mr. Borgen, all of you
    who are involved and engaged in our criminal justice system
    because, as I said and my colleagues have referenced, we do
    have a problem not only in New York City but around the
    country.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
        Mr. Goldman. So, hopefully we can work together--
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
        Mr. Goldman. --to reach real solutions, not charades like
    this. I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from New York, Ms. Stefanik,
    is recognized for five minutes.
        Ms. Stefanik. As a native New Yorker, born and bred, I
    think it's important to note that many of the Democrats on this
    Committee have smeared brave victims and fellow New Yorkers
    here today, calling them ``props,'' a ``circus,'' a
    ``performance,'' ``MAGA Broadway props,'' and an ``underlying
    sham.''
        What have Republicans focused on? We've focused on giving
    victims a voice. We've focused on crimes.
        We've focused on your story as a father visiting your son
    at the hospital, seeing his face beaten in with an anti-Semitic
    hate crime.
        We're focused, Ms. Brame, on your story as a mother
    grieving the loss--rightfully grieving the loss and advocating
    on behalf of your son and his legacy.
        Ms. Harrison, we heard your story about losing your loved
    one.
        Mr. Alba, we heard your story, just the personal challenges
    you face dealing with the consequences of the vicious crime
    committed, perpetrated against you.
        In addition to House Democrats belittling the victims here
    today, Democrats have politicized this hearing, mentioning
    Donald Trump 38 times. That number for Republicans is zero. We
    are focused on victims and making sure that we support law and
    order in this country.
        There is a catastrophic crime crisis across America,
    specifically in our great cities and great cities like New
    York. New Yorkers know it. Americans know it.
        While Democrats on this committee may claim that New York
    is not the epicenter, look no further than the last November
    election where we flipped four Congressional seats, delivering
    the House majority. What was the number-one issue? It was
    crime. Because voters are smart. The people are smart.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, as a member--as a longtime member of law
    enforcement, I wanted to get your testimony today. How long
    have you served in law enforcement?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Approximately 40 years.
        Ms. Stefanik. In those 40 years, would you say the crime
    crisis today is worse than you've ever seen it?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
        Ms. Stefanik. Crime is up.
        Is it fair to say it is a result of failed bail reform
    policies in Albany and Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo''?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
        Ms. Stefanik. Here are some important numbers. In 2022,
    District Attorney Bragg's first year as DA, New York City saw a
    23 percent surge in major crimes. Is that true?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
        Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, murders are up 93 percent.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
        Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, robberies are up 43 percent.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
        Ms. Stefanik. Felony assaults are up 32 percent.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
        Ms. Stefanik. It's fair to say that law enforcement
    strongly opposed Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo'' and failed bail reform
    policies in Albany?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
        Ms. Stefanik. Mr. DiGiacomo, in fact, you have said, quote,

            Bragg gives criminals the roadmap to freedom from prosecution
            and control of our streets. In Bragg's Manhattan, you can
            [resist] arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrest, and even carry a
            gun to get away with it.

        Can you please expound about why law enforcement opposes
    Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1'' policy and opposes failed bail reform?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, because, again, every time a detective
    or a police officer puts himself or herself in harm's way
    arresting a felon or anyone for any crime, they're released
    immediately with no consequences.
        Ms. Stefanik. Mr. Borgen, as a family member of a victim of
    a heinous violent crime, your son, as you talked about, was a
    victim of a violent anti-Semitic hate crime committed at a pro-
    Israel event. Your son was jumped, beaten, and sprayed with
    mace.
        In fact--and I think it's important for the American people
    and my colleagues across the aisle to hear this--your son
    describes this as,

            A whole crowd of people proceeded to kick me, punch me, beat me
            down. I felt a liquid being poured on my face, and, at first, I
            thought I was getting urinated on, but it turned out I was
            getting maced and pepper sprayed. My face was on fire. That
            pain was worse than the concussion and all this other stuff
            that followed.

    Yet, the attacker said, ``If I could do it again, I would do it
    again.'' Yet, District Attorney Alvin Bragg gave him a
    sweetheart deal.
        What is your message to District Attorney Alvin Bragg?
        Mr. Borgen. Well, the man is incompetent, obviously, in the
    big scheme of things. Unfortunately, our hands are tied. He can
    come to us--he offered him other deals; my son did not accept
    them.
        Right now, the court case is pending, and different deals
    are passing on from back and forth, but between me and you, I
    lost faith in the justice system with Alvin Bragg. I don't feel
    anything's going to get done. Like in the other cases also, her
    son's attackers walking around scot-free like nothing happened.
    It's a disgrace.
        I just want to say to you, Mr. Ivey, I compliment you.
    You're the only one who sat here on the Democratic side, didn't
    bring up Donald Trump. You're a mensch. You talk straight. You
    didn't look to make partisan politics here. I want to
    compliment you.
        Ms. Stefanik. Ms. Harrison, what's your message to Alvin
    Bragg?
        Ms. Harrison. I'm a walking example of not ever being
    whole, 18 years after losing a loved one under horrific
    circumstances and not seeing justice. My life will never, ever
    be complete without Kevin.
        Knowing that the murderers' families are walking free,
    spending Christmases and Easters with their family--it's beyond
    comprehension.
        So, I hope that he will pay attention to what's happening
    here today and realize the effect that he's having on survivors
    of homicide victims for the rest of their lives.
        Ms. Stefanik. Thank you to the victims for the bravery,
    sharing their stories.
        Thank you to our former law enforcement officers for your
    leadership.
        Yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
        Just to the witnesses, now we'll just be on this side. I
    think the Democrats have all went. It's about 40 more minutes.
    If you've got to step out, just please let us know, but we want
    every member to get a chance to talk to you. If you need to
    step out, please excuse yourself, and Capitol Police will make
    sure you know where you're going out there.
        With that, I yield five minutes to the gentleman from
    Texas, Mr. Roy.
        Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair.
        Much has been made about why we are in New York City. In a
    memorable moment shortly before he was elected, former Mayor
    Rudolph Giuliani told an editorial board meeting he cared about
    statistics, but the real measure would be whether people
    actually feel safer. That, he said, ``was the ultimate test to
    policing and political leadership.''
        He said that in 1993, when New York was averaging 2,000
    murders a year. By 2013, it was down to 333 due to the strong
    support of law enforcement and the anti-crime policies adopted
    by the city. It got down to 288 by 2018, but now it is back up
    to the mid-400s.
        I think this is the question: Whether or not you feel safe.
    The question I'd ask of Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, others: Do you
    feel safe in New York City right now?
        Ms. Brame. No.
        Ms. Harrison. No.
        Mr. Roy. Mr. Alba, do you feel safe in New York City?
        The Interpreter. He said, ``At this moment, no.''
        Mr. Roy. All right.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, your history in law enforcement. You said
    it's as unsafe as you've ever seen it, today, in New York.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes, that's correct.
        Mr. Roy. Isn't that the ultimate measure? Isn't that the
    question?
        I think one of the things that I think merits focusing on
    is the question that my colleagues on the other side of the
    aisle have been talking about in terms of jurisdiction. What is
    the jurisdiction here?
        Mr. DiGiacomo, are you familiar with 922(g) and 924(c) in
    the Federal Code?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. No, I'm not. I'm sorry.
        Mr. Roy. The 922(g) being felons in possession, 924(c)
    being the ability to be able to go after somebody and give them
    a heightened sentencing for their use of firearms in crimes.
        My question here--
        [Disturbance in hearing room.]
        Mr. Roy. If we might suspend.
        Ms. Hageman. [Presiding.] The Committee will suspend.
        The gentleman is recognized to continue.
        Mr. Roy. All right. So, we're back on.
        The 922(g) and 924(c), these are Federal crimes, right?
    They're Federal crimes that--we have programs like Project Safe
    Neighborhoods that work with local law enforcement where we
    have the United States Attorney's Office in coordination to try
    to combat crime and the use of firearms in crimes.
        Now, I suppose we could go through and look at the laundry
    list of legislation that my colleagues on the other side of the
    aisle have introduced to repeal said Federal laws, that these
    Federal laws should not exist. If we want to have a debate
    about federalism, about that, I'm happy to have it. We're not
    doing that, are we? Because that's not what this is about. It's
    about show.
        The fact is, we do have Federal laws on the books to go
    after criminal misuse of firearms, but they're not being
    enforced, and they're also not being enforced at the local
    level. Those are the facts. The facts are we are letting
    criminals out of jail.
        If you look at the data, the data is clear. The average
    criminal has 11 prior arrests, five criminal exhibitions.
    Seventy-seven percent have five-plus prior arrests.
        Ms. Hageman. We need the crowd to be quiet, please.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Roy. Seventy-four percent have prior violent arrests.
    Thirty percent have prior arrests for guns and weapon offenses.
    Even though these individuals have lengthy criminal records, 52
    percent served a year or less. Sixty percent are re-arrested
    within two years of release. The fact is, we have a recidivism
    problem.
        We have now gone down the road of decarceration. Hundreds
    of thousands of criminals have been released. Just since 2020,
    the incarcerated population is down about 300,000, when it was
    2.1 million, which, by the way, was pretty far down from the
    levels when we had the safest numbers and the safest streets in
    this city.
        This isn't about some libertarian world view of letting out
    a few potheads who are allegedly rotting in jail. Eighty-eight
    percent of prisoners are incarcerated in State systems for
    murder, rape, robbery, and assault. That's responsible for most
    of those sentences. A mere 14 percent are in custody primarily
    for narcotic offenses, and the vast majority of these are
    felony trafficking crimes and misdemeanor possession.
        My question is for you, Mr. DiGiacomo: Do you think that we
    have a problem with the gun issue, or do you think we have a
    problem with letting criminals out on the streets?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, the criminals are being let out at an
    alarming rate.
        I just want to make it clear here that the guns--I'm
    speaking for New York City--the guns that are being used here
    in New York City are illegal guns. They're illegal guns that
    are brought here into New York City and being used to victimize
    the people of New York City.
        Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted heavily by the DA here?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. No, they're not.
        Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that the problem?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That is a major problem.
        Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted in coordination with the
    United States Attorney's Office, using 922(g) and 924(c) to
    prosecute them?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Not that I'm aware of, no.
        Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that fundamentally the problem?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
        Mr. Roy. The question I have--my colleagues on the other
    side of the aisle have mentioned former President Trump a
    number of times.
        I would just ask, was it former President Trump, Ms. Brame,
    that killed your son?
        Ms. Brame. No.
        Mr. Roy. Ms. Harrison, was it former President Trump that
    killed your loved ones?
        Ms. Harrison. No.
        Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that stabbed Mr.
    Alba?
        Mr. Alba. No.
        Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that prosecuted Mr.
    Alba, prosecuted him for defending himself?
        Mr. Alba. No.
        Mr. Roy. No.
        I yield back.
        Ms. Hageman. The Chair recognizes the Representative from
    Texas, Mr. Nehls.
        Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Chair.
        All right. Check, check. Am I on? All right.
        As a former law enforcement officer for 30 years, sheriff
    of a large county in the great State of Texas, what I seen
    happening in our country is disturbing and should be of concern
    to all of us.
        Crime is at an all-time high. The American people can't
    trust their government. The left wants to defund the police
    because of law enforcement shootings where police acted
    inappropriately, and those officers were rightly charged and
    sentenced.
        What we saw in 2020 with riots, rioting across our country,
    led to numerous attacks on law enforcement and citizens, with
    hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to buildings.
        The left will rally their troops, they'll rally them,
    they'll get them all together in the name of social justice,
    but little is being made of the hundreds of victims of crime in
    Chicago and New York and other large cities run by liberals,
    because the victims and suspects of those crimes are
    predominantly Black and, in those cases, Black lives don't
    matter. They don't matter.
        Shame on them and the dishonest media. The dishonest media
    is the greatest threat, folks. You in the back, you are the
    greatest threat to this country. We've seen it, and the
    American people know it.
        Most people on the left, if not in this room, you've heard
    of Eric Garner. I'm sure you've heard of him. You've heard of
    George Floyd. You've heard of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown.
    You've heard of all those names. What about the hundreds of
    innocent victims in Chicago, Philadelphia, and Baltimore?
    You'll never hear their names. You'll never hear their names.
    Shameful.
        If you've watched the news lately, it's no shocker, Alvin
    Bragg likes to prosecute. He's even a fan of increasing
    misdemeanors to felonies for certain individuals he doesn't
    like. Some of those individuals--he said, ``he's the greatest
    danger to our country.''
        Mr. Bragg, I hope you're watching. I hope you're watching
    today, sir. You're a disgrace. You're a danger to this country.
    I will do everything I can in my power to hold you accountable.
    Your job, Mr. Bragg, is to protect the residents here in
    Manhattan. Decreasing felonies to misdemeanors--decreasing
    felonies to misdemeanors is dangerous and places the victim
    last.
        Mr. Kessler, I'll start with you. You worked for Senator
    Schumer and other Members on crime policy. That's great. So, I
    want to get your perspective on this ``Day 1 Memo.'' You're
    familiar--are you familiar with this?
        Mr. Kessler. I am not.
        Mr. Nehls. You're not familiar with this ``Day 1 Memo,''
    and you've come here today? I should provide you a copy.
        According to the Manhattan DA, the aim of the ``Day 1
    Memo'' is to reduce Manhattan's over-incarceration issue and to
    deliver safety and fairness for all.
        So, I ask you--you're familiar--you're not familiar with
    the memo. The ``Day 1 Memo'' stated: The DA's office will not
    prosecute minor offenses that, quote, ``have no impact on
    public safety,'' end quote. So, let's talk about some of the
    things Alvin Bragg considers minor offenses.
        Resisting arrest. Can you tell me how not prosecuting this
    makes New York safer? Resisting arrest.
        Mr. Kessler. I'd have to see--
        Mr. Nehls. We're not going to prosecute it in New York.
        Mr. Kessler. OK.
        Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
        Mr. Kessler. All right.
        Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
        Did you ever ask law enforcement?
        Mr. DiGiacomo, how do you feel about that? How do your law
    enforcement officers feel about not prosecuting resisting
    arrest?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. They weren't happy about it, that's for
    sure.
        Mr. Nehls. You wonder why 1,400 officers left New York PD
    in 2022. Why in the hell would you work here? I'd go out into
    the suburbs, where you can go out there and fight crime and be
    respected. You're not getting that in these large cities such
    as Manhattan.
        You want to defund NYPD a billion dollars in 2020, and you
    wonder why we are in the State of Emergency we are in.
        Mr. Bragg laid out five sections of law that covers armed
    robberies and says, New York will not prosecute them. In short,
    according to this memo, if you hold a gun to a clerk's face and
    ask, ``Empty the trash''--``Empty the cash register, sir,'' we
    are going to take that and that's going to be a misdemeanor, no
    big deal. That's no big deal.
        How do you feel about that, Mr. Kessler? What if I come
    over there and I put my pistol and screw it in your ear, and I
    don't say anything bad to you, and we're just going to say,
    ``Mr. Nehls, that's just a misdemeanor here in the great State
    of New York''?
        Mr. Kessler. Well, that has happened to me.
        Mr. Nehls. Well, sad, isn't it? How'd you feel about that?
        Mr. Kessler. I was pretty scared.
        Mr. Nehls. Pretty scared.
        Mr. Kessler. Yes.
        Mr. Nehls. We're going to consider that a misdemeanor here
    in the great New York.
        It's unacceptable. It's disgraceful. I wish I had more
    time.
        Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
        The Chair recognizes the Congressman from Wisconsin, Mr.
    Fitzgerald.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Pretrial release decisions. New York State law requires an
    annual report of pretrial release decisions made by New York
    City courts. The latest data, released in September 2022, shows
    the statistics of pretrial release granted to individuals
    across all categories of offense between 2019-2021. Here's a
    few takeaways from that.
        Since New York City repealed cash bail for certain
    nonviolent felonies in 2019, the instances of imposing bail
    have decreased across all categories of offense, including
    violent felonies.
        Release was granted in more than 75 percent of nonviolent
    felony cases in 2021. Of those released, 40 percent went on to
    commit another crime within 180 days, with 10 percent of those
    being violent felonies.
        In those cases where bail was actually set, which in 2021
    was about 12,000 cases, more than 3,700 of those had bail set
    at $1.
        I wanted to highlight those statistics for a couple of
    reasons. The first is to show that weak bail policies in New
    York City do, in fact, have an effect on violent crime.
    Thousands of violent felony offenders are being released under
    their own reconnaissance or, in some cases, like I said, for a
    dollar and then within six months are back in front of the same
    judge.
        Then the second is to say that the pretrial release
    statistics play an important role in helping the public and
    Congress, actually, understand whether a State's bail policies
    are contributing to a spike in violent crime.
        So, I'd ask this, and I'd ask Congress, that we should take
    up a bill, a bill that we've worked on in past Congresses, the
    Pretrial Release Reporting Act, so we can see how other States'
    bail policies are contributing to really an epidemic that's
    nationwide right now.
        So, Ms. Harrison, I was going to ask you, can you just
    comment, in general, on pretrial release statistics and the
    issues related to that not just in New York but nationwide?
        Ms. Harrison. As you mentioned, we see it across the board,
    all over the news, that people are killed or victimized by
    people that are released under pretrial least restrictive
    conditions--bail reform, cashless bail, and whatever you want
    to call it.
        We have over 305 people that are dead in New York because
    of bail reform. Christina Lee was murdered here in New York by
    somebody that was on supervised release, which really is
    nonexistent.
        So, across the board, across the country, it's awful, and
    it's victimizing people.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, I just wanted to get your opinion on how
    these types of pretrial decisions erode the relationship
    between law enforcement and the District Attorney's Office.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I've always remembered the police and
    the District Attorney's Office worked together to help the
    victims of crime. I don't see that happening in Manhattan, and
    it's caused more people to die.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. It's got to be disheartening for officers
    on the street to go out, do their job on a daily basis, make
    the arrests, do the right thing, put their lives at stake, and
    then find out on the back end that the DA didn't follow through
    on either prosecuting or--at the end of the day, kind of a slap
    in the face when you find out that they were released on a $1
    decision?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, absolutely. Like I said earlier, every
    time you engage the criminal element, you're putting your life
    in harm's way.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good.
        Thank you.
        Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank--
        Mr. Nehls. Can I take--
        Chair Jordan. Yep. Yep.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. I yield to the gentleman from Texas.
        Mr. Nehls. Thank you.
        When I think of victims of crime, being a sheriff, having
    to deal with it pretty much all my life, and I think about an
    individual having to protect himself, and when you have some
    type of a knucklehead--we've got one over here on this poster
    board--Mr. Alba, you had to deal with this guy's in your face,
    I felt and you felt scared, didn't you?
        Did you feel this guy was going to possibly kill you?
        Mr. Alba. Yes.
        Mr. Nehls. Maybe cause serious bodily injury, if not death?
        Mr. Alba. Yes.
        Mr. Nehls. Then you have a right--you have a right, as an
    American citizen, to use deadly force, sir, and eliminate that
    threat. You have a right to do that.
        Everybody in this room would agree with that, wouldn't you?
        I mean, when is it OK in America--
        Mr. Goldman. Would the gentleman yield for a minute--for a
    second, sir? Will you yield over here?
        Mr. Nehls. No.
        When is it--when can we look--if somebody puts a knife to
    you or a clerk at a cashier anywhere in this country and he's
    threatening to say, ``I'm going to kill you if you don't give
    your money,'' I would encourage the residents in the great
    State of Texas in my county to defend yourself. Defend
    yourself. You are given that God-given right. That means
    pulling out a weapon and put two at center mass. You'll reduce
    recidivism, won't you? You won't have a repeat offender.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
        The gentlelady from Indiana, Ms. Spartz, is recognized.
        Ms. Spartz. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        I'm a person that always believed that the greatest of our
    country is the freedoms and greatness of our people. As someone
    who came from a communist country, it appalled me, what's
    happened in our country. I'm sad that unfortunately the
    Congress became a circus and charade.
        Unfortunately, what's happened in your district is also a
    circus and charade. I appreciate people being here--Mr. Alba,
    Ms. Harrison, and Ms. Brame--and actually sharing your personal
    story, and I apologize on behalf of the Congress.
        I also appreciate Mr. Holden sitting here and actually
    willing to challenge your own party. I actually do it quite a
    lot. A lot of people in your party don't have that strength,
    and I hope we can see more of that.
        On the way here, one of my constituents texted me. We had a
    police officer suicide; we had a police officer killed in the
    district last year. We have a serious problem with our criminal
    justice system.
        Our government was stood up to protect people's rights to
    life, liberty, and property, and it's not doing it. People
    playing politics. It is one of the core functions, and this
    Committee has that function.
        So, I appreciate Mr. Chair actually having a field hearing.
    I actually appreciate my Democrat colleagues showed up this
    time. Because I hope we'll do more, because my city of
    Indianapolis has higher murder rates than city of Chicago, and
    we have a Democrat prosecutor. He is not enforcing the crimes--
    the laws.
        The problem with what we have right now--and I actually
    agree with Mr. Goldman and Ms. Lofgren about jurisdiction. It's
    a challenge. I want to hear what we can do, what we should be
    doing. I hope we will have more discussion about jurisdiction,
    because we're overreaching significantly on the States' rights.
    As a former State Senator, I have huge problem with that.
        I also agree with--at least appreciate Mr. Ivey said, ``You
    know what? It's all about gun control.'' At least he's honest,
    OK? Not, like, do all these talking points.
        Like, I was listening to TV this morning. They already say,
    oh, OK, media came, talking about all the--I honestly don't
    give about him. I actually care what is happening in this
    country. I think it's important for us to hear from ``we the
    people'' because people are not heard and there is no lobby for
    the people in Washington, DC. So, hopefully you decide to be
    more active in that.
        I also think [inaudible] and Mr. Espaillat said, ``Follow
    the money.'' I actually would like to follow the money. Why are
    we not dealing with hospital monopolies the taxpayers are
    supporting so much? Why are we not dealing with the border
    situation that all those NGO's get money? Who knows what the
    hell they're doing with that and why we have the crises with
    all the situations?
        I want to try to ask you if we're going to find common
    ground, I actually on the Criminal Justice Subcommittee tried
    to pass some laws on a bipartisan basis, but is there any in
    your party except gun control?
        I know that Ms. Fischer, you mentioned about the safe
    storage and everything. I just don't see anything how I am and
    my kids are going to be safer if I lock up my guns. Actually,
    as a female, I feel not as safe. I don't know how long
    [inaudible] police officer will take them now to get to help
    us.
        So, I think we now--it's really strange for me. We try to
    take protection from law-abiding citizen and believe that
    criminals are not going to get guns?
        I mean, is there anything else except gun control? Maybe we
    should reform education and have some wraparound preventative
    services and have more competition in education, that these
    kids are actually taught some values, that don't have a 10
    percent or eight percent literacy rate, that they have to get
    into gangs.
        Is there anything else you can say except gun control?
        Ms. Fischer. So, comprehensive solutions to reducing
    violence in New York City have actually been incredibly
    effective. That's why if I--
        Ms. Spartz. Not do any in Congress--
        Ms. Fischer. --set the record straight, because we've been
    talking a lot about statistics, the NYPD's own data has shown
    that shootings are down in the first quarter 19 percent.
        Ms. Spartz. Yes, I think I don't need statistics.
        It doesn't sound like--
        Ms. Fischer. Homicides are down nine percent.
        Ms. Spartz. OK. OK.
        Mr. Kessler, my question for you: You've been talking a lot
    about trafficking and are we going to be talking about child
    trafficking, human trafficking, drug trafficking of the border
    and cartels actually doing this gun violence associated with
    it? Can we find common ground on that?
        Mr. Kessler. Let me try to--
        Ms. Spartz. I mean, is cartel not a problem? Can you tell
    me that trafficking of guns done by Mexican cartels and now
    subsidized with taxpayers' money--is it not a problem? Can we
    find a common ground on that?
        Mr. Kessler. Perhaps. So, if I--
        Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about that. I mean, why cannot we
    talk about that?
        Mr. Kessler. If I could just have 30 seconds to answer.
        Ms. Spartz. OK. Well, I don't have 30 seconds, but--
        Mr. Kessler. Back in the ``wayback machine,'' I helped
    with--Chuck Schumer worked on the 1994 crime bill, which I know
    not everybody loves, but one of the things about that crime
    bill--and it was a huge, comprehensive--it was one of the
    things that brought down crime in this country.
        One of the most important things about that crime bill--
    Schumer gets a lot of credit for it. Henry Hyde, the Republican
    Ranking Member, worked on it closely with Schumer too. It was a
    bipartisan effort, and solutions was taken from both sides--
        Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about it, but not right now do it.
        Mr. Kessler. --it wasn't perfect, but the rates started to
    come down, and it was--
        Ms. Spartz. My time has expired, but we need to stop
    playing politics with people's life.
        I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
        The gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, is recognized for
    five minutes.
        Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me say first, I
    appreciate you having this hearing.
        Let me set the record straight for the people in New York.
    This is not the first hearing on crime we've had since Mr.
    Jordan's been Chair. A few weeks ago, we went to Yuma, Arizona.
    We saw where people were coming across the border--106
    different Nations.
        A hundred-and-seven-thousand fentanyl deaths. We talk about
    mass shootings. We only had 74 people killed by mass shootings
    last year in America. We're losing more than that today, just
    in this hearing alone, to fentanyl poisoning.
        So, we've been out here, and we're going to go other areas
    where there's crime, and we're going to have hearings, because
    it's a concern. I mean, Victoria's right. We have to begin to
    address these issues that are threatening American citizens.
        So, Ms. Brame, you actually took one of my talking points a
    while ago. Crime doesn't--the criminal does not differentiate
    between a Republican and a Democrat. I was stabbed a few years
    ago, and I was glad the DA actually charged the man for
    attempted murder and put him behind bars. It made us all feel a
    little safer.
        So, thank you for being here. Ms. Harrison, thank you for
    being here. Mr. Alba, thank you for being here.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, I want to talk to you a little bit about
    just what we're seeing with the rules the DA came in with, this
    new rule, this set of rules. Are you seeing officers retire now
    and going to other lines of work as a result of the policies?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I lost--600 detectives retired this
    year alone.
        Just to give a clear consensus on what that means, in 2001,
    in the terrorist attacks, we had 7,500 detectives. Right now,
    I'm working with 5,400 detectives. We're doing more
    investigative steps now than we were doing then because of the
    video canvasses. We're also doing counterterrorism duties, as
    well, here in New York City.
        Mr. Moore. What do you think the primary reason the
    detectives--you're losing that experience level. Why are they
    leaving?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, when you're a detective, you
    investigate crimes, and sometimes it takes months to
    investigate those crimes. There are reports that are this high,
    and the detective puts many, many hours, days, and weeks
    sometimes investigating those crimes, just for the individual
    to be let go. They're getting frustrated. They are frustrated
    is the real fact.
        Mr. Moore. I guess they risk these lives as they're
    investigating these crimes, as well, and they're risking their
    health?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Always. Always. Yes, always--New York City
    detectives do everything from patrol to climb the bridges and
    everything in between--homicide, special victims, and narcotic
    divisions. So, detectives and all police officers here in New
    York City do very dangerous work 24 hours a day.
        Mr. Moore. Mr. DiGiacomo, I've got a question. I find it
    interesting that when a law enforcement officer uses a weapon
    to defend themself or even in pursuit of a criminal, it's
    always the law enforcement officer's fault, but when it's the
    criminal using the gun, it's always the gun's fault.
        How do we address that in society? Why does the left always
    drive that narrative?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it's very simple. It's the person that
    is handling the gun. It's the criminal element that's using the
    gun and victimizing other people here in New York City and
    across this country.
        Mr. Moore. So, in some sense, it must be the person, the
    individual, responsible, not the law enforcement officer
    himself.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
        Mr. Moore. How do you find a man that--or a lady that wants
    to be a law enforcement--if she pulls her weapon in a life-
    threatening situation and she shoots somebody, she's going to
    be tried for murder or he's going to be tried for some sort of
    crime, but if he doesn't pull his weapon, he ends up dying. How
    do you recruit people to go into that industry?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. It's a dying profession.
        Mr. Moore. That's scary for me, for our society, in
    general, if we cannot recruit good law enforcement officers.
    Then they're crucified by the left and the media when they act
    to save their selves or their partner's lives.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. If I may?
        Mr. Moore. Yes, please.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. There's no profession, at least here in New
    York City, that has more oversight than the New York City
    Police Department.
        Mr. Moore. Uh-huh.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. There are about 10 levels of oversight. No
    one else has that level of oversight like the New York City
    Police Department.
        Mr. Moore. Typically in society--and this is for all folks,
    in blue cities or any other cities. Often, they want to disarm
    law-abiding citizens, and they say, ``Well, call the police. If
    you have an intruder, call the police,'' and then, at the same
    time, they're defunding the police.
        What kind of situation, Ms. Harrison, does that put society
    in, when you can't defend yourself?
        Ms. Harrison. A horrible situation.
        At the same time, in the name of ending mass incarceration,
    as they like to gaslight everybody with, they're releasing very
    violent recidivists with no oversight, because they're removing
    any kind of parole supervision, bail supervision.
        So, we really do need to be able to defend ourselves in
    some way, shame, or form.
        Mr. Moore. Is that weapon--I mean, my daughters have
    concealed-carry permits. It's the equalizer, correct? For a
    lady who's being attacked by an assailant who's much bigger,
    much heavier, and much stronger, does it not equalize the
    playing field?
        Ms. Harrison. I believe it does.
        Mr. Moore. Thank you.
        With that, I'll yield back, Mr. Chair.
        Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman.
        Witnesses, we've just got a few more, but these are very
    important Members, great people.
        We're going to go now with the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms.
    Hageman.
        Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
        Thank you, for everyone, for being here.
        I represent the State of Wyoming. There are 560,000 people
    in my State. I grew up outside of a town of 350 people. I
    currently live in our largest city of 60,000 people.
        I want you to know, Mr. Alba, Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and
    Mr. Borgen, we pay a lot of attention to what goes on here. We
    know about you.
        When I read about your situation, Mr. Alba, and what
    happened to you the next day after it happened, I prayed for
    you. I prayed for your family.
        As I read the testimony that you have provided to us today,
    it makes my heart break to know that you, as family members,
    have gone through something so devastating. To make it even
    worse, our criminal justice system has treated you so poorly
    since you have gone through these things.
        I will tell you; it has been interesting to listen to you
    talk about your loved ones, talk about the fear that you faced
    with this situation, Mr. Alba; the loss that you're still
    suffering from 18 years later after losing your loved one; how
    much love you have for your son, how much love you have for
    your son and your family and your community.
        I do want you to know that we're not here for
    grandstanding. We're not here for anything other than the fact
    that we're recognizing that across the country there is a
    sickness pervading our communities that is destroying who and
    what we are. It's not just about guns.
        I watched you, Ms. Fischer, as you secretly smiled at some
    of the Congress Members on the other side as people on our side
    talked about the gun issue. I understand you believe that it is
    an inanimate object that somehow can create the--or cause the
    mass shootings, that it's not the individual.
        One of the things that has struck me today is that, as we
    talk about these mass shootings, nobody has talked about the
    drugs that these people were on. Nobody has talked about the
    psychology of this.
        We just had a woman shoot and kill three young children and
    three teachers, and yet no one has talked about what kind of
    drugs she may have been taking, what kind of psychosis she was
    suffering from. Clearly, she was suffering from a psychosis.
    She claimed that she was a boy when she was a girl.
        We have to be looking at those kinds of things. It's not
    the guns. It's what we're teaching in school. It's the rot in
    our culture. It is the fact that we are losing our society
    because we're unwilling to recognize that there is evil, and
    when there's evil, we need to address it.
        When someone does something to your family members that is
    illegal, we need to take them off the streets. We don't need to
    try to figure out what may have happened in their background.
    If they've done something, if they've stabbed a beautiful young
    man, as they did your son, they need to be taken off the street
    and they need to be punished.
        We need to protect our law-abiding citizens, and we need to
    protect our communities. We also need to protect our police
    officers.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, the thing that has struck me, as I listen to
    the testimony, is the fear that I have--and you were just
    speaking about it a moment ago with my colleague Mr. Moore,
    about the impact that this is having on our law enforcement
    officers. You said something that was extremely jarring, which
    is, it's a dying profession. What that means is we're heading
    toward anarchy and lawlessness.
        When I was driving in last night from the airport, what
    struck me as I drove down the streets of this city that I
    love--I've spent a lot of time in New York City. Coming from
    Wyoming, I love this city. What I started seeing out the window
    was almost an ``Escape from New York'' feel.
        We don't want our big cities to die. We don't want to lose
    the culture that we have here. We in Wyoming love New York. We
    love Portland. We love Austin, Texas. We love these places.
    They're part of our culture and the fabric of our society.
        We have to address the fact that there are people who are
    willing to kill and stab and hurt other people. It is the
    responsibility of our law enforcement and our prosecutors to
    make sure that they can't hurt anyone else.
        With that, I want to tell you, there have been many times
    today that you've been called victims, and I don't see you as
    victims. I see you as very, very brave, brave people for being
    willing to come in here today and tell your story and make sure
    that everybody in this country knows your names and knows the
    names of your family members.
        With that, I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. Well said.
        The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Hunt, is recognized.
        Mr. Hunt. I cannot thank you all enough for being here.
    Thank you for sharing your lives with us. Thank you for sharing
    your stories. I greatly appreciate it. Being from Texas, it's
    an honor to be in your presence.
        In the 1990s, the mid-late 1990s, New York City was
    considered one of the safest cities in America. When I was at
    West Point from 2000-2004, I took that train down here many a
    day, had a pretty good time in this city, and I felt relatively
    safe when I did just that.
        While Alvin Bragg is a Manhattan District Attorney, his
    policies are not isolated to this borough. His pro-criminal
    policies are just an example of what Soros-funded district
    attorneys are implementing across our great Nation. Their
    ideology is responsible for the death, rape, and robbery of
    innocent people across America, and it is disproportionately
    impacting poor Black and Brown people.
        In Democrat-run cities across America, criminals are given
    deference and victims are left to fend for themselves, as you
    have articulated today. Why do these Soros-funded district
    attorneys put criminals first and victims last? It's what they
    believe. It's who they are.
        Our cities are crumbling around us. Criminals are running
    rampant. That's because district attorneys in San Francisco,
    Los Angeles, Chicago, and even my home city of Houston are
    advocating for pro-criminal policies. Alvin Bragg fits this
    profile, in my humble opinion.
        Let's talk about Alvin Bragg. He's a woke, progressive
    district attorney no different than any other progressive DA in
    our country right now. He was elected as the Manhattan DA in
    2021. His policies should not be surprising given that he was
    heavily supported by the Black Lives Matter PAC that was
    directly funded by George Soros. In fact, George Soros donated
    $1 million to that PAC less than a week after endorsing Bragg.
        Under the guise of helping people of color, he causes them
    more harm with his pro-criminal policies. Since Bragg has taken
    office, New York City residents are worried about increasing
    threats of violence.
        Do you know who doesn't have to worry about violence? Alvin
    Bragg. Bragg is surrounded by men with guns every single day.
    If you're a regular New Yorker coming home late at night on the
    Subway, you may be robbed, stabbed, raped, or even pushed in
    front of a train.
        Do you know what the fastest-growing demographic of gun
    ownership is in America? Black women. Black women. Why? Because
    they know they have to protect themselves in Democrat-run
    cities where criminals are allowed to roam free. That is a
    fact.
        Now, many of my colleagues on the left like to say that our
    justice system is two-tiered, that it favors the powerful and
    connected at the expense of poor people of color. In Bragg's
    office, there's a two-tiered justice system: It's criminals
    first and victims second, especially victims of color.
        We have an opportunity to vote out DAs just like this to
    make people that look like me and you, ma'am, safer. Let me
    take it one step further. Not just people that look like you
    and me. Every single American that lives in this country should
    feel safe to live in their own streets, end of discussion.
        I'm sitting here right now, and I'm hearing ``Trump, Trump,
    Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.'' At the end of the day, the
    people that are sitting here right now, they don't want to hear
    that. The only thing you want is safety.
        We are not grandstanding. I am not grandstanding. I can
    assure you; I would love to be holding my four-month-old boy
    right now. I am here to fight for you and to hear your stories
    and to allow you to tell your stories. For that, I am forever
    grateful.
        Ma'am, you aren't the only one that's actually left the
    plantation. It's happening all over the country.
        With that, I yield back. Thank you.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields
    back.
        Mr. Kiley is recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        In recent years, we have seen a movement to fundamentally
    change America's approach to law and order by defunding police
    departments and by putting so-called progressive prosecutors in
    district attorney's offices.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, you are the head of the New York Detectives'
    Endowment Association. What connection do you see between these
    two things, defund the police and progressive prosecutors?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, they're following the progressive line
    and not backing the police, not caring about the victims, and
    putting the criminal element back out onto the street to
    victimize the people of this city and State and country.
        Mr. Kiley. That's right. Both seek to eliminate or
    neutralize the capabilities of law enforcement, correct?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. It's been compromised already.
        Mr. Kiley. That's right. Thereby removing or reducing the
    consequence of criminal activity, correct?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
        Mr. Kiley. So, these policies have gained a major foothold
    in several cities, including the one that we're in right now,
    so we can assess what the impact has been. One way to assess
    that impact, of course, is looking at the effect on crime
    rates.
        Now, Mr. Holden, you're an elected city council member in
    New York, a member of the Democratic Party, and you testified
    today about failed progressive policies. So, just to be clear,
    when you say these are failed progressive policies, is that
    because they've caused crime to go up or to go down?
        Mr. Holden. Again, I'm a critic of my party's stance on
    crime. Everything's gone up. All their policies have led to an
    increase in crime.
        I think we saw it come to a head with the war on police
    that started after George Floyd. It went national. So, you saw
    this kind of crime wave go throughout the entire country.
        Mr. Kiley. That's right. In fact, if you look at
    yesterday's The New York Times, it reported that major crime in
    New York this year is 45 percent up from two years ago. This is
    from The New York Times.
        To your point, in Los Angeles, violent crime is 86 percent
    higher than national average. In San Francisco, overall crime
    is 111 percent higher than the national average.
        So, you can also then look to assess the impact of these
    policies about how people are responding to them.
        Would you say, Council Member Holden, that these failed
    progressive policies have caused more people to move to New
    York City or to move away from New York City?
        Mr. Holden. Certainly, away from New York City. I've never
    seen it this bad. Like I said, I grew up in the 1980s and 1990s
    in New York, and I saw horrific crime numbers, but now it's
    much, much worse because it's all over. The lawlessness, mayhem
    is all over.
        Mr. Kiley. In fact, the State of New York is second in the
    Nation in terms of one-way U-Haul rentals, people who are
    leaving.
        First place, of course, is California now, three years
    running. Los Angeles County, where George Gascon is the
    District Attorney, accounts for half the people leaving
    California. San Francisco, its population is declining faster
    than any major city in U.S. history.
        Now, a final way we can assess the impact of these policies
    is by the judgment of voters.
        Council Member Holden, would you say that Mayor Eric Adams
    made the issue of crime a major plank in his successful
    campaign for mayor?
        Mr. Holden. Well, that was and certainly is. He's not
    getting much support from his colleagues.
        Mr. Kiley. Correct.
        In Los Angeles, George Gascon has been subject to a vote of
    ``no confidence'' by 36 different city councils within his
    jurisdiction.
        San Francisco voters went so far as to recall their
    progressive prosecutor from office overwhelmingly. Now, this is
    not a red city. The Trump-Pence ticket got 12 percent in San
    Francisco. Yet, voters overwhelmingly recalled that progressive
    prosecutor.
        So, the verdict is very clear: That these policies have led
    to crime skyrocketing, to people fleeing, and they're being
    rejected by voters.
        Yet, today, on the other side of the table, we by and large
    saw Members of Congress standing by those policies. For folks
    who are watching and, for that matter, the victims and the
    families who are here today, it must be disheartening.
        I'd say it's actually not as bleak as it sounds, that, in
    fact, the voices that we have heard today on the other side are
    not representative. For proof of that, just look what happened
    in D.C. after the city council there passed a reckless crime
    bill.
        In the House majority, we passed legislation to undo what
    the D.C. City Council had done. President Biden sided with us
    and signed that bill. Two out of three Democrat Senators sided
    with us and voted for that bill. Do you know how many Members
    of this Committee in the minority voted for that bill? Just
    one. Every single other Member voted to keep the reckless, pro-
    criminal D.C. crime bill in place.
        So, I would say there's a lot more consensus in this
    country right now than today's hearing makes out and that the
    pendulum is swinging back toward supporting victims, supporting
    law enforcement, and supporting law and order.
        I look forward to working with people of good faith on both
    sites of the aisle to restore sanity to our criminal justice
    system.
        Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time has expired.
        Mr. Moran is recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        There's a greatness in America that has often been
    reflected over the history of our Nation by the greatness in
    some of our largest cities, like New York City, like
    Philadelphia, like a couple cities in my State--Austin and
    Houston, to name a few.
        Widespread movements in these cities to focus support for
    criminals instead of victims, to put progressive liberal
    politics ahead of the lives of all individuals regardless of
    political affiliation, to put sound bites ahead of sound
    policy, and to focus on social justice rather than actual
    justice have resulted in these Democrat-run cities, like New
    York City, being less safe.
        Of course, if you're talking about the safety and
    protection of criminals, that's different.
        Mr. DiGiacomo, let me see if I understand a couple of
    statistics correctly. I'll ask you a couple questions about
    this.
        When it relates to Alvin Bragg's Manhattan District
    Attorney's Office, not even going back before that but just
    looking at what he's done and looking at the process, in
    particular, let's start with somebody that's committed to
    criminal offense, a felony offense.
        Since 2019, if you compare 2019-2022 statistics, Alvin
    Bragg has declined to prosecute 35 percent less felonies than
    before. Even with those felonies that were charged, he's
    downgraded 52 percent of those felonies down to misdemeanors.
    Even when you get past that, of those felonies that actually
    make it to trial, Alvin Bragg's office is only successful in
    about half of those cases.
        So, when you start doing the mathematical calculations, if
    you're a criminal in this city that commits a felony, by the
    time he declines to prosecute and then downgrades a portion of
    what's left and then actually prosecutes those that are left
    and is unsuccessful in about half of those cases, probably only
    one in five at best, maybe one in six or one in seven, that
    commit a felony criminal offense in the city of New York City
    and in the Manhattan district in particular actually get
    convicted of that felony conviction.
        Is that true?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's counterproductive to the victims of
    crime. Correct.
        Mr. Moran. Once convicted, then, based on Alvin Bragg's
    ``Day 1 Memo,'' he's encouraged less and less of those
    criminals to actually receive jail time. Isn't that true?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
        Mr. Moran. Now, how does that work with the morale of the
    NYPD?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, we're seeing it now, where we're
    having so many members of the NYPD leaving for other
    departments and detectives with years and years of experience
    and knowledge retiring. It's going to have a major impact on
    public safety here in New York City.
        Mr. Moran. Yes. Does it actually affect their ability to
    perform their duties?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Oh, absolutely. Again, if you're not
    prosecuting the crime, again, you're putting your life on the
    line every time you encounter a criminal or a criminal element,
    and just for this individual to be let out again, and all your
    work was done for no reason.
        Mr. Moran. I'd like to know what you're hearing, because
    you have your ear to the ground. What are you hearing from the
    men and women, the brave men and women, of the NYPD about their
    desire to continue to serve under these kinds of circumstances?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Policing here in New York City is the most
    difficult I've seen it in 40 years. It's almost impossible for
    these young cops, and old, and detectives to do their job
    effectively, because you don't have a clear understanding and
    working relationship with the District Attorney's Office.
        Mr. Moran. How does it affect their job and their ability
    to perform their job, that about half of those actually charged
    with felonies are out on--without any bail at all, awaiting
    trial, and only about half are in?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it breaks the morale, and it breaks
    your desire to serve and protect the people of this city.
        Mr. Moran. Do you see often times when these that have
    committed felonies that are awaiting trial are actually out
    there committing more felonies while they're in their pretrial
    state?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's the sad part about this. They're out
    again victimizing the people of the city. That's why the morale
    in the NYPD is so low right now.
        Mr. Moran. One of the things that you mentioned in your
    testimony, your written testimony, is about juvenile offenders.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Uh-huh.
        Mr. Moran. Talk about juvenile offenders under Alvin
    Bragg's District Attorney's Office, whether or not they're
    committing more crimes, whether or not they are incentivized to
    be part of gangs more than they were before.
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it used to be two percent of the
    crimes in New York City. It's now double digits. They're
    committing more crimes, carrying more firearms, because they
    know there are no consequences.
        Mr. Moran. Yes. These are the illegal firearms that we've
    been talking about, so much that--
        Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
        Mr. Moran. --Alvin Bragg's office has decided not to
    prosecute under existing law. Is that true?
        Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
        Mr. Moran. All right. Thank you for your time.
        I yield back.
        Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman.
        The gentleman yields back.
        Last, but certainly not least, my friend and colleague, the
    gentleman from New Jersey, is recognized.
        Mr. Van Drew. Hi. You guys got to be tired. I know after a
    while you almost have your eyes glaze over.
        I want to tell you--and I really mean this, and there's a
    lot of people in this room who mean it--we appreciate you. We
    appreciate your bravery, your strength, your love for the ones
    that you lost. We appreciate the professionals who are here who
    are willing to speak up against all odds.
        This is a big deal. Without folks like you, without good
    Americans like you, without individuals who have the courage
    and strength to stand up the way that you do, we're definitely
    doomed.
        I also want to promise you something else. I think the
    Chair would stick with me on this, and I think the Members here
    would stick with it. We're going to do something. We absolutely
    didn't do this for an exercise. We absolutely didn't do this
    for politics.
        So, I do want to say this to my friends on the other side.
    They threw out all kinds of stuff today--numbers that weren't
    real, a whole discussion of guns. You can have a lot of
    discussions on guns, but that wasn't what today was about. It
    wasn't a discussion about the guns. It was a discussion about
    Alvin Bragg.
        They talked about George Santos, anti-Semitism, Donald
    Trump, money going from the NRA to Members--which, by the way,
    I don't think it does, or else I'm surely the only one not
    getting it. I asked a few people. I don't think that's accurate
    either.
        That's an old political trick. Just so that you who are
    sitting here at this table know, you put the shiny object up
    here, and the shiny object is Donald Trump. So, hopefully--you
    hope that you and that we get so focused on his issues and get
    drawn into that.
        I don't give a damn about his issues right now. We'll deal
    with his issues--and they're important issues--at another time.
    I care about your issues. We care about your issues. They
    should care about your issues, not all this other crap they
    threw out there.
        I'm sorry, I'm a little rough around the edges sometimes,
    but I'm just telling you the truth. It's about time we hear the
    truth. That's what the truth is.
        The truth is this--I did write some things down, too--that
    crime rates in our biggest cities have risen to staggering
    levels. When you say the crime rate or what's really going on,
    you can't just talk about somebody who has actually been--was
    going to be prosecuted but was released. That's why these
    numbers look down, because we're releasing everybody. We're not
    putting them in jail.
        Bad people should go in jail. That's where they belong.
    They shouldn't be out so they can hurt your wives, children,
    mothers, fathers, and grandfathers. We want to be safe, and it
    doesn't matter what color, what race, what origin we are; we
    want to be safe in our homes.
        I think of what goes on in Chicago. It's not only New York.
    My God, how many little Black babies get shot every single week
    in that town? We can stop it. We could stop it if we had good
    prosecutors.
        Who's funding these progressive district attorneys? We
    should know that. Well, it's George Soros. With this increase
    in crime, you would think their DA would be actively trying to
    slow it down. He's not. He's taking money from George Soros.
        I don't know about money from the NRA, but I'll tell you,
    there's tons of money, tens of millions--in fact, he spent $170
    million--that's a lot of dough--$170 million in 2022 and $40
    million which was for local prosecutor elections. We never had
    money spent like that on prosecutor elections. It's wrong.
    Prosecutors should run because they want to defend the law,
    help their police, and, most of all, help you.
        God bless you, after being a victim and losing people you
    love, that you're here. I can't believe how strong you are.
        You know what begs the question too? Who's worse? Is it a
    prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law, or the criminal? Well,
    the prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law has a broad effect
    across the whole city and should know better and is taking his
    position, that position of such importance, to be the legal
    guardian, to be the person that's the caretaker of our America,
    of our cities, of this great city of New York, and what does he
    do? For politics, he doesn't care.
        The fact that he didn't sit down and shed some tears with
    you, it's unbelievable to me.
        The fact that he put you--and accused you of murder. Troy
    was right before. A man tries to kill you, you've got to stop
    him. It's your right. I guess he would've rather that you got
    killed. I don't understand it.
        It's in New York City. It's in Chicago. It's in San
    Francisco. This is the facts.
        Aww, shoot. I need a few more seconds. A few more?
        The bottom line is, the facts are that all the Soros-backed
    district attorneys are doing this everywhere. It leads to more
    crime.
        I'm going to say this--I'm going to finish up.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
        Mr. Van Drew. I think the answer is--I think he should
    resign. I swear to God, he should resign, and he should be
    disbarred.
        Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
        I want to--this concludes our hearing today.
        I want to thank our witnesses. I've been in Congress a
    while, not quite as long as Mr. Nadler, but I've been there a
    while, and I don't know if I've ever been a part of a hearing
    with more powerful witnesses telling your stories. So, thank
    you for your courage. Thank you for your patience, for being
    here. God bless you all.
        That concludes--without objection, all members will have
    five legislative days to submit additional written questions
    for the witnesses or additional materials for the record.
        Chair Jordan. Now, without objection, the hearing is
    adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:58 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

        All items submitted for the record by Members of the
    Committee on the Judiciary can be found at https://
    docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=115663.