[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                         ADVANCED AIR MOBILITY:
                         THE FUTURE OF UNMANNED
                      AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS AND BEYOND

=======================================================================

                                                                          
                                     

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                             MARCH 23, 2023
                               __________

                            Serial No. 118-4
                               __________



 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology

                                     
              
                         
             
              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                                      
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     

       Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov 

                                 ______

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 

51-879 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024 
















              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                  HON. FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, Chairman
BILL POSEY, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California, Ranking 
RANDY WEBER, Texas                     Member
BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   HALEY STEVENS, Michigan
DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York
MIKE GARCIA, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             ERIC SORENSEN, Illinois
JAY OBERNOLTE, California            ANDREA SALINAS, Oregon
CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee         VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina
DARRELL ISSA, California             KEVIN MULLIN, California
RICK CRAWFORD, Arkansas              JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             EMILIA SYKES, Ohio
RYAN ZINKE, Montana                  MAXWELL FROST, Florida
SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida              YADIRA CARAVEO, Colorado
DALE STRONG, Alabama                 SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
MAX MILLER, Ohio                     JENNIFER McCLELLAN, Virginia
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              TED LIEU, California
MIKE COLLINS, Georgia                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York           PAUL TONKO, New York
TOM KEAN, New Jersey
VACANCY 














                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                             March 23, 2023

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Presiding Chairman, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................    12
    Written Statement............................................    13

Statement by Representative Zoe Lofgren, Ranking Member, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................    14
    Written Statement............................................    15

Written statement by Representative Frank Lucas, Chairman, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................    16

                               Witnesses:

Dr. Jamey Jacob, Executive Director, Oklahoma Institute for 
  Research and Education; Williams Chair in Energy and Professor 
  of Aerospace Engineering, Oklahoma State University
    Oral Statement...............................................    18
    Written Statement............................................    20

Dr. Parimal Kopardekar, Director, NASA Aeronautics Research 
  Institute
    Oral Statement...............................................    26
    Written Statement............................................    28

Ms. Lisa Ellman, Executive Director, Commercial Drone Alliance
    Oral Statement...............................................    35
    Written Statement............................................    37

Mr. Sean Casey, Chief Research and Development Engineer, AirWise 
  Solutions; Adjunct Professor, System Safety and Reliability 
  Analysis at Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma State University 
  Institute of Technology
    Oral Statement...............................................    68
    Written Statement............................................    71

Discussion.......................................................    76

             Appendix I: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

Dr. Jamey Jacob, Executive Director, Oklahoma Institute for 
  Research and Education; Williams Chair in Energy and Professor 
  of Aerospace Engineering, Oklahoma State University............   110

Dr. Parimal Kopardekar, Director, NASA Aeronautics Research 
  Institute......................................................   116

Ms. Lisa Ellman, Executive Director, Commercial Drone Alliance...   119

Mr. Sean Casey, Chief Research and Development Engineer, AirWise 
  Solutions; Adjunct Professor, System Safety and Reliability 
  Analysis at Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma State University 
  Institute of Technology........................................   128

            Appendix II: Additional Material for the Record

Letter submitted by Representative Frank Lucas, Chairman, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives

    Jeff Grove, Vice President, Global Policy, Cooperation, and 
      Communications, ASTM International.........................   132

Letter submitted by Representative Zoe Lofgren, Ranking Member, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives

    John Samuelsen, International President, Transport Workers 
      Union of America...........................................   137

 
                         ADVANCED AIR MOBILITY:                         
                    THE FUTURE OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT
                           SYSTEMS AND BEYOND

                              ----------                              

                        THURSDAY, MARCH 23, 2023

                          House of Representatives,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in 
room 2318, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Brian Babin 
presiding.

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Mr. Babin. The Committee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recesses of the 
Committee at any time.
    Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``Advanced Air 
Mobility: The Future of Unmanned Aircraft Systems and Beyond.'' 
I'd like to now recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.
    I want to say thank you to all you folks for being here. We 
appreciate the witnesses.
    Today's hearing will examine research and development (R&D) 
of advanced air mobility, also known as AAM, and unmanned 
aircraft systems, also known as UAS, and commonly called 
drones. The hearing will also provide an overview of how 
advanced R&D can enable supply chain security and safe 
integration of UAS into the National Airspace System. There are 
two challenges for the deployment of next-generation autonomous 
systems across the country, the need for more research and 
development, and an improved regulatory framework. The Science 
Committee has jurisdiction over Federal research and 
development, so that will be the focus of our discussion today.
    Additionally, the hearing will also serve as a legislative 
hearing for the National Drone and Advanced Air Mobility 
Initiative Act, a bill to improve research, development, 
deployment, and manufacturing of UAS in the United States. As 
the name suggests, UAS are complex systems made up not only the 
aircraft, but also the supporting ground, air, and 
communications infrastructure. Advanced air mobility, or AAM, 
integrates new technologies to enable urban and inner city 
movement of people in cargo delivery. It can be either manned 
or unmanned. Commercial use of UAS and AAM have the potential 
to carry out a wide range of missions across a broad range of 
sectors including agriculture, weather monitoring, critical 
infrastructure, transportation, public safety, and disaster 
relief, which can greatly benefit our society.
    UAS experimentation and testing at high schools and 
universities might also lead to technology breakthroughs, as 
well as inspire students to enter the STEM (science, 
technology, engineering, and mathematics) studies. However, due 
to the delays in integrating UAS into the National Airspace 
System, these technologies are unable to reach their maximum 
potential. As a result, U.S. companies are going overseas to 
conduct UAS R&D, which directly impacts our national security 
and economic competitiveness. Our goal today is to better 
understand the research underway to overcome these barriers and 
how we can streamline UAS and AAM integration.
    We cannot afford to delay much longer. The Chinese 
Communist Party (CCP) has made it clear that it wants to 
dominate the globe in key technology areas, and drones are 
certainly one of them. One CCP-supported Chinese drone company 
has a near monopoly of the drone market, providing 90 percent 
of the drones used for public safety operations in the United 
States. That means that our police, our first responders, and 
even border agents are using hardware and software from a 
company that is tied to the CCP, which should have everyone 
here very concerned. Relying on these drones from China is 
putting our privacy and our security at grave risk, and we're 
also losing out on the economic benefits of having American 
businesses compete in this rapidly growing industry. UAS also 
hold great potential for assisting civil agencies. NASA, 
(National Aeronautics and Space Administration) NOAA (National 
Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) use UAS to conduct 
research, and Customs and Border Patrol use UAS to monitor the 
border and track smugglers and cartels and those who have 
crossed the border illegally.
    In addition to the benefits, it is critical that we carry 
out R&D to better understand how to mitigate the public safety 
challenges posed by UAS. As the United States faces growing 
competition from the CCP and other adversaries, it's never been 
more important to maximize our Federal R&D resources. The 
Federal Government has a long tradition of investing in 
fundamental research and having the ability to understand, 
control, and manufacture materials that will be essential to 
our success in domestically producing these drones.
    I want to thank all of our witnesses for taking the time to 
participate in today's important hearing. Your expertise will 
be invaluable as we continue to look at the future of unmanned 
aircraft systems, advanced air mobility, and the 
competitiveness of the United States.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Babin follows:]

    Today's hearing will examine research and development of 
advanced air mobility, also known as AAM, and unmanned aircraft 
systems, also known as UAS and commonly called ``drones.'' The 
hearing will also provide an overview of how advanced R&D can 
enable supply chain security and safe integration of UAS into 
the National Airspace System.
    There are two challenges for the deployment of next-
generation autonomous systems across the country: the need for 
more research and development, and an improved regulatory 
framework.
    The Science Committee has jurisdiction over federal 
research and development, so that will be the focus of our 
discussion today.
    Additionally, the hearing will also serve as a legislative 
hearing for the National Drone and Advance Air Mobility 
Initiative Act, a bill to improve research, development, 
deployment, and manufacturing of UAS in the United States.
    As the name suggests, UAS are complex systems made up of 
not only the aircraft, but also the supporting ground, air, and 
communications infrastructure.
    Advanced air mobility, or AAM, integrates new technologies 
to enable urban and inter-city movement of people and cargo 
delivery. It can be manned or unmanned.
    Commercial use of UAS and AAM have the potential to carry 
out a wide range of missions across a broad range of sectors, 
including agriculture, weather monitoring, critical 
infrastructure, transportation, public safety, and disaster 
relief, which can greatly benefit our society.
    UAS experimentation and testing at high schools and 
universities might also lead to technology breakthroughs as 
well as inspire students to enter STEM fields.
    However, due to the delays in integrating UAS into the 
National Airspace System, these technologies are unable to 
reach their maximum potential. As a result, U.S. companies are 
going overseas to conduct UAS R&D, which directly impacts our 
national security and economic competitiveness.
    Our goal today is to better understand the research 
underway to overcome these barriers and how we can streamline 
UAS and AAM integration.
    We can't afford to delay much longer. The Chinese Communist 
Party (CCP) has made it clear that it wants to dominate the 
globe in key technology areas, and drones are certainly one of 
them.
    One CCP-supported Chinese drone company has a near-monopoly 
of the drone market, providing 90 percent of the drones used 
for public safety operations in the U.S.
    That means that our police, first responders, and even 
border agents are using hardware and software from a company 
tied to the CCP, which should have everyone here concerned.
    Relying on these drones from China is putting our privacy 
and security at risk. And we're also losing out on the economic 
benefits of having American businesses compete in this rapidly 
growing industry.
    UAS also hold great potential for assisting civil agencies. 
NASA and NOAA use UAS to conduct research and Customs and 
Border Patrol (CBP) use UAS to monitor the border and track 
smugglers, cartels, and those who have crossed the border 
illegally.
    In addition to the benefits, it is critical that we carry 
out R&D to better understand how to mitigate the public safety 
challenges posed by UAS.
    As the United States faces growing competition from the CCP 
and other adversaries, it's never been more important to 
maximize our federal R&D resources.
    The federal government has a long tradition of investing in 
fundamental research, and having the ability to understand, 
control and manufacture materials will be essential to our 
success in domestically producing drones.
    I want to thank all of our witnesses for taking the time to 
participate in today's important hearing. Your expertise will 
be invaluable as we continue to look at the future of unmanned 
aircraft systems, advanced air mobility, and the 
competitiveness of the United States.
    Thank you, I yield back.

    Mr. Babin. Before I recognize Ranking Member Lofgren, I 
want to yield just a minute more to myself to recognize some 
very special folks in our audience. We have several individuals 
from the 147th Attack Wing based out of Ellington Field Joint 
Reserve Base, which is in my district the 36th-Texas. The 
significance of their presence here in today's hearing is that 
the main mission of the wing is the operation of their MQ-9 
Reapers. In fact, one of the individuals here today Major Karl 
McGarvey is a Reaper pilot. Others here--raise your hand, 
Major. Yes, sir.
    Others here include Chief Master Sergeant Brandt Spenrath, 
wife--his--excuse me, his wife, Amy; Senior Master Sergeant 
Jason Howard; and Technical Sergeant Stacy Sanchez all play 
critical roles in the support and operation of the MQ-9 
mission. I'm very, very proud of each of you and very honored 
to have you up here in Washington and coming by my office and 
visiting and sitting in on this hearing.
    So with that, I'd now like to recognize Ranking Member 
Lofgren for her opening statement.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, good morning. And I want to thank 
Chairman Lucas for this hearing and also thank Chairman Babin 
for filling in for Mr. Lucas today. And I'd like to thank our 
expert witnesses for appearing before the Committee.
    As I said in our Space and Aeronautics Subcommittee hearing 
just a couple of weeks ago, aviation is critical to this 
country's economy and global leadership. Aviation is also 
undergoing a transformation. Today's hearing focuses on a few 
transformative systems, uncrewed aircraft systems, also known 
as UAS, or drones; and advanced air mobility, as the Chairman 
has said, or AAM, and the role of Federal R&D in advancing the 
use of these technologies.
    In 2018 in the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) 
reauthorization, we directed R&D priorities to enable drone 
operations and integration into the National Airspace System. 
And reviews and reports conclude that progress has been 
lagging. We need to understand why that is because significant 
economic and societal benefits are at stake.
    Now, both the UAS and AAM are projected to be multibillion 
dollar markets, including manufacturing and services. 
Unfortunately, the U.S. is not alone in recognizing the 
potential of this sector and as some countries are actively 
integrating drones into their airspace, and, as the Chairman 
has said, others are dominating the drone manufacturing market. 
Expanded drone operations and eventual AAM deployment can 
improve wildland fire detections and response, a key issue for 
California and the rest of the United States; deliver medical 
personnel and supplies to rural areas in disaster zones. And 
I'll point out that a large part of my district is underwater 
as we speak here today. Expand our environmental monitoring, 
conduct safer industrial inspections, and a lot more. Federal 
R&D investments can and should address these applications.
    That's why I'm so pleased to have Dr. Kopardekar--and 
you'll help me if I'm mispronouncing your name--here today. He 
is a wonderful public servant and NASA's expert in the 
integration and management of next-gen air vehicles into the 
National Airspace System. In fact, he is the inventor and 
patent holder of the NASA UAS Traffic Manager System or UTM, 
which makes it possible for small drones to safely conduct 
complex operations in the National Airspace System, which NASA 
developed and delivered to the FAA in 2020.
    Now, of course, I want to also highlight that he's based at 
NASA Ames Research Center, which is just a stone's throw away 
from my district in California. Ames has been leading an 
innovative effort that applies a UTM system to real-word 
emergency response operations, and particularly the integration 
of drones in wildland detection, and particularly, the 
response, the mitigation, the detection of the same.
    It's clear that the American public, businesses, and 
workers stand much to gain from the utilization and innovation 
of UAS and AAM tech and their safe integration into the 
Airspace System. We need to understand and mitigate potential 
risks associated with that. Today's hearing is an important 
step in gaining that insight, and I look forward to hearing 
from our witnesses what's needed to support the maturation and 
operation of a safe, effective, and innovative civil and 
commercial drone system, how research and development, 
including counter-UAS technologies, can identify and help 
mitigate potential risks.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Lofgren follows:]

    Good morning. I want to thank Chairman Lucas for holding 
this hearing and also thank Chairman Babin for filling in for 
Mr. Lucas today. And I would like to thank our expert witnesses 
for appearing before the Committee today.
    As I said in our Space and Aeronautics Subcommittee hearing 
just a couple of weeks ago, aviation is critical to this 
country's economy and global leadership. Aviation is also 
undergoing a transformation. Today's hearing focuses on a few 
transformative systems-Uncrewed Aircraft Systems, also known as 
UAS or drones, and Advanced Air Mobility, or AAM-and the role 
of Federal R&D in advancing their use. The 2018 FAA 
Reauthorization directed R&D priorities to enable drone 
operations and integration into the National Airspace System. 
Reviews and reports conclude that progress is lagging. We need 
to understand why, because significant economic and societal 
benefits are at stake.
    Both UAS and AAM are projected to be multi-billion-dollar 
markets, including manufacturing and services. It is no 
surprise that the U.S. is not alone in recognizing the 
potential of this sector. Some countries are actively 
integrating drones into their airspace, and others are 
dominating the drone manufacturing market. Further, the 
potential societal benefits are equally compelling. Expanded 
drone operations, and eventual AAM deployment, can improve 
wildland fire detection and response; deliver medical personnel 
and supplies to rural areas and disaster zones; expand 
environmental monitoring; conduct safer industrial inspections, 
and so much more. Federal R&D investment can, and should, 
address these applications.
    That is why I am so pleased that we have Dr. Parimal 
Kopardekar here today. He is a truly exemplary public servant 
and NASA's expert in the integration and management of next-
generation air vehicles into our National Airspace System. In 
fact, he is the inventor and patent-holder of the NASA UAS 
Traffic Management System, or UTM, which makes it possible for 
small drones to safely conduct complex operations in the 
National Airspace System, and which NASA developed and 
delivered to the FAA in 2020. Of course, I also want to 
highlight that he is based at the NASA Ames Research Center, 
just a stone's throw away from my district. Ames has also been 
leading an innovative effort that applies the UTM system to 
real-world emergency response operations, and particularly to 
the integration of drones in wildland fire detection, response, 
and mitigation, with government and industry partners at the 
local, state, and federal levels.
    It is clear the American public, businesses, and workers 
stand much to gain from the innovation of UAS and AAM 
technologies and their safe integration into the national 
airspace system. It is also imperative that we understand and 
mitigate the potential risks associated with their operations.
    Today's hearing is an important step in gaining that 
insight, and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on: 
1) what is needed to support the maturation and operation of a 
safe, effective, and innovative civil and commercial drone 
ecosystem; 2) how federal R&D efforts on drones and AAM can be 
applied to solve our country's key challenges; and, 3) how 
research and development, including on counter-UAS 
technologies, can identify and help mitigate potential risks, 
including those related to safety, privacy, security, 
emissions, and noise.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my 
time.

    Ms. Lofgren. And I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Before I yield back, I'd like unanimous consent to put in 
the record a letter from the Transport Workers Union of 
America.
    Mr. Babin. Without objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Lofgren. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I am looking 
forward to seeing how this technology can help mitigate 
potential risks, including those related to safety, those 
privacy issues, security issues, emissions, noise, and the 
rest. And I yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren, appreciate 
it.
    And also, I neglected to say but our Full Chairman is 
unable to be here today. As you probably noticed, I'm not 6-
foot-6 like he is, big guy from Oklahoma. We miss him. He had a 
funeral and family--of a family member. So keep--we'll keep him 
in our prayers as well.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Lucas follows:]

    Good morning, and thank you for being here today for this 
important discussion about emerging air mobility technologies.
    Advanced Air Mobility (AAM) and Unmanned Aircraft Systems 
(UAS) are going to be a significant area of focus for this 
Committee this year because of the tremendous potential these 
technologies hold.
    Advanced Air Mobility is quite literally transforming how 
we transport people and goods in underserved areas of the U.S.
    For instance, Electric Vertical Take-Off and Landing 
(eVTOL) vehicles can serve urban areas with limited spaces to 
land aircraft. They can transport goods around town or serve 
passengers on inter-city trips.
    Electric Short Take-Off and Landing (eSTOL) can use short 
runways to quickly launch and transport people and cargo 
between areas not served by existing airports.
    And Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS), often called drones, can 
deliver packages, provide photos and videos for public safety, 
monitor infrastructure, and increase crop yield in agriculture.
    The demand for UAS is growing exponentially. In 2018, the 
drone services market was worth less than $5 billion. But it's 
predicted to grow to more than $63 billion by 2025. The market 
for Advanced Air Mobility is expected to increase to $115 
billion by 2035, creating more than 280,000 new jobs.
    It is an economic imperative that we expand this industry 
in the United States so we can benefit from future market 
growth.
    That's the idea behind the National Drone and Advance Air 
Mobility Initiative Act, a bill I introduced last Congress and 
plan to reintroduce.
    This legislation will help advance these technologies by 
establishing a National Drone and Advanced Air Mobility 
Initiative to coordinate UAS activities.
    In addition to authorizing R&D at a range of federal 
agencies, it will authorize a network of research institutes to 
coordinate cross-cutting R&D.
    This bill will expand the workforce needed to build out the 
UAS industry, as well as address risks to UAS supply chains.
    Finally, it will establish a counter-UAS center of 
excellence to support the work necessary to improve our 
abilities to respond to threats from adversaries using UAS.
    Today's hearing will help guide the development of our 
legislation and I look forward to working with Ranking Member 
Lofgren on that process.
    We have already seen great strides in R&D for UAS and AAM 
in my home state of Oklahoma. Oklahoma is ranked first in State 
readiness for drone commerce for a number of reasons.
    Dr. Jamey Jacob--one of our witnesses today--leads a team 
at Oklahoma State University, the University of Oklahoma, and 
the University of Tulsa that is driving innovative research to 
advance next-generation UAS and AAM technologies.
    Tribal Nations are leveraging their unique assets to 
advance research for safe and responsible drone operations. And 
Oklahoma is partnering with neighboring states to position the 
region as a hub for AAM.
    But there is still more critical R&D that must be done for 
the United States to lead in next-generation drones and AAM 
technologies.
    I look forward to our witnesses' testimony on how we can 
best support that R&D.
    I want to thank all of our witnesses for taking the time to 
participate in today's important hearing. Your expertise will 
be invaluable as we continue to look at the future of unmanned 
aircraft systems, advanced air mobility, and the 
competitiveness of the United States.

    Mr. Babin. So let me introduce our witnesses. Our first 
witness today is Dr. Jamey Jacob, who serves as the Williams 
Chair in Energy Technology and Professor of Aerospace 
Engineering at Oklahoma State University (OSU). He is also the 
Executive Director of the Oklahoma Aerospace Institute for 
Research and Education, and the Director of the Unmanned 
Systems Research Institute at OSU. He also serves as the Vice 
Chair of the Oklahoma Governor's Council on Aerospace and 
Autonomous Systems, and previously served as a member of the 
Governor's UAS Council. Thank you for being here.
    And our next witness is also, as Ms. Lofgren mentioned, Dr. 
Parimal Kopardekar. Is that right? Kopardekar. OK. I think he's 
better known as Dr. P.K., the Director of NASA Aeronautics 
Research Institute and a Senior Leader of the NASA Aeronautics 
Research Mission Directorate. He previously served as the NASA 
Senior Technologist for Air Transportation Systems, and as the 
Manager of NASA's Safe Autonomous Systems Operations Project. 
Dr. P.K. also chairs the International Civil Aviation 
Organization's Unmanned Aircraft System Advisory Group. Thank 
you for being here.
    Our next witness is Ms. Lisa Ellman, co-founder and 
Executive Director of the Commercial Drone Alliance (CDA). She 
is also a partner at the law firm of Hogan Lovells and serves 
as the Chair of the firm's Uncrewed Aircraft Systems Practice. 
Ms. Ellman also serves on the NASA Advisory Council Aeronautics 
Committee, as well as the FAA Beyond Visual Line-of-Sight 
Rulemaking Committee. She has held a variety of positions at 
the White House, at the DOJ (Department of Justice), including 
leading the DOJ's effort to develop policy to govern the use of 
UAS in the United States. Thank you for being here.
    And our final witness is Mr. Sean Casey, the Chief Research 
and Development Engineer for AirWise Solutions. He is also an 
Adjunct Professor for System Safety and Reliability Analysis 
for the Oklahoma State University Institute for Technology at 
Tinker Air Force Base. We have a couple of Oklahomans here, so 
that's good. Mr. Casey has also served as a Principal 
Investigator and Program Manager on several unclassified DOD 
(Department of Defense), UAS, and AAM programs.
    I want to thank you all for joining us today.
    And so now, I would like to recognize Dr. Jacob for 5 
minutes to present his testimony. Dr. Jacobs?

       TESTIMONY OF DR. JAMEY JACOB, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
         OKLAHOMA INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION;
                    WILLIAMS CHAIR IN ENERGY
            AND PROFESSOR OF AEROSPACE ENGINEERING,
                   OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY

    Dr. Jacob. Thank you very much. Chairman Babin and Ranking 
Member Lofgren and distinguished Members of the Committee, 
thank you for inviting me to testify today. It is an honor to 
speak with you about the work we are doing within the State of 
Oklahoma and across the U.S. to advance emerging technology in 
the United States in advanced air mobility and safe integration 
of the national airspace. I can only share with you a sample of 
what we are doing today.
    Since development of laboratories for autonomous and 
remotely piloted aircraft in the 1990's were undergraduate 
teaching tools, Oklahoma State University has been a leader in 
aerial robotics. As part of our land grant mission, we have 
fostered education, research, outreach, and application of 
these systems into areas of public use, such as agriculture, 
energy, environmental monitoring, and national defense, working 
with national labs and industries alike. We have used this 
technology to help spur interest in aerospace and other STEM 
careers, particularly for K through 12 outreach; 
underrepresented minorities, including urban areas and tribal 
nations, leveraging programs within the Choctaw, Cherokee, and 
Osage nations of Oklahoma; providing new opportunities for 
these sovereign nations to use this technology to support their 
tribal members and develop new entrepreneurial activities 
within their borders and support their Federal customers.
    Of critical national importance is OSU's Counter-UAS Center 
of Excellence. Supporting the needs of both the Departments of 
Defense and Homeland Security (DHS), the Counter-UAS Center of 
Excellence works with private companies to evaluate threats of 
drones by State and non-State actors using the systems as both 
symmetric and asymmetric weapons, threatening U.S. warfighters 
and the public, as well as evaluating systems to detect, 
identify, and mitigate these threats.
    In addition to developing the gold standards to evaluate 
these defensive systems, the Counter-UAS Center of Excellence 
is currently working with the U.S. Army to develop curriculum 
training capabilities for the DOD Joint Counter-UAS University 
to train soldiers in counter-UAS technology across all branches 
of the military and help bridge the gap in knowledge.
    Federal support has been the catalyst to enable this use-
inspired research. Government funding has been a powerful 
driver in pushing technology from the laboratories to end user 
adoption, crossing the valley of death that many innovations 
never bridge. Support from programs such as the NASA University 
Leadership Initiative, National Science Foundation National 
Robotics Initiative, and projects with the FAA has allowed us 
and other universities to push the boundaries in using UAS to 
improve aviation weather observations and forecasting, which 
will result in adoption of AAM solutions in urban settings and 
greatly increase our capability to accurately forecast weather 
in disasters such as wildfires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, 
saving lives and property.
    As an example of this, through EDA (Economic Development 
Administration) funding and cooperation with private and tribal 
partners, we have launched the launchpad AAM Center of 
Excellence flight range within the Osage Nation and Tulsa 
Innovation Laboratories to develop novel programs to support 
small business innovation and provide unique flight testing 
solutions, helping to bridge this divide.
    Facilities such as the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma test 
site, as part of the FAA BEYOND programs, are critical to U.S. 
capabilities. Further development and funding to these sites 
and other facilities that allow testing of this technology to 
evaluate use cases and performance is much needed to provide 
crucial safety data for the FAA, such as advancing beyond 
visual line-of-sight drone operations in routine cargo 
deliveries of critical supplies for first responders, disaster 
response, medical emergencies in impoverished regions.
    I believe we're in a new golden age of aviation. With the 
introduction of new technology--in this case, autonomy and 
electrification--that will have a tremendous impact on the U.S. 
and how individuals use aerial transportation for travel and 
commerce. This era that we are in the process of birthing will 
have an even wider reach than the two that went before.
    We believe the future of advanced aviation is bright, and 
that the quality of life for all Americans can be enhanced by 
advancing and exploiting this emerging technology. Research 
conducted at land grant and other universities through public-
private partnerships play a critical role in this potential 
prosperity, but we need the Federal Government's support to 
ensure that these technologies flourish and provide the 
benefits to all Americans that we know are possible.
    Thank you again for my--inviting me to share my opinions. I 
will be happy to answer any questions that you have. I 
appreciate the support the Committee has provided for U.S. 
research activities throughout its work. And I'd like to wish 
Chairman Babin a happy birthday.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Jacob follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much, Dr. Jacob. I appreciate 
that. Thank you for being here, too.
    I now recognize Dr. P.K. for 5 minutes to present his 
testimony.

              TESTIMONY OF DR. PARIMAL KOPARDEKAR, 
         DIRECTOR, NASA AERONAUTICS RESEARCH INSTITUTE 

    Dr. Kopardekar. Thank you, Chairman Dr. Babin, and happy 
birthday, Ranking Member Lofgren, and distinguished Members of 
the Committee. I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak 
to you about the future of unmanned aircraft systems, UAS, and 
advanced air mobility, AAM. My name is Parimal Kopardekar. I am 
the Director of NASA Aeronautics Research Institute, and I am 
located at the agency's Ames Research Center in the Silicon 
Valley.
    A major global aviation transformation is beginning, and we 
must innovate in aviation, while maintaining its safety 
tradition. NASA is collaborating with government agencies, 
academia, and industry to develop UAS and AAM technologies that 
will provide many societal benefits. Small UAS are now being 
used for applications such as agriculture and infrastructure 
inspection, cargo delivery, and emergency responses. 
Transformative aircraft design is enabling advanced air 
mobility, a market likely to reach $150 billion annually with 
280,000 domestic jobs by 2035.
    NASA invests in aeronautics research to address the most 
critical, pressing challenges by developing and transferring 
key technologies to the FAA and industry. In the past, NASA has 
transitioned several U.S.-related technologies. We developed 
unmanned aircraft system traffic management, referred to as 
UTM. NASA had 85 industrial partners, including many startups 
that are now market leaders. The UTM will safely enable high-
scale operations of smaller drones in low-altitude airspace.
    For advanced air mobility, in collaboration with FAA and 
industry, we are researching topics such as airspace 
integration, aircraft noise, safety, and community acceptance. 
Over the next several years, we will conduct demonstrations 
called national campaigns to examine how the entire AAM system 
will work. NASA is leveraging the Small Business Innovative 
Research (SBIR) program to advance UAS and AAM. The agency has 
given multiple grants through University Leadership 
Initiative--one of them is him--Minority University Research 
and Education program to build the next-generation workforce.
    NASA is working with Department of Defense's Agility Prime 
to analyze AAM supply chain needs, gaps, and opportunities to 
grow the U.S. domestic manufacturing sector. In short, NASA 
aeronautics has committed significant resources to ensure that 
UAS and AAM concepts and technologies will mature, scale, and 
be safely operationalized. U.S. leadership in this sector 
cannot be taken for granted, as other countries are closely 
following our progress and seeking to surpass us.
    The AAM Leadership and Coordination Act, which was enacted 
last year, will further strengthen our collaboration with FAA 
and the other agencies. Additionally, NASA is an active member 
of the Department of Transportation's recently formed Advanced 
Air Mobility Interagency Working Group consisting of 19 Federal 
agencies.
    As you are aware, there has been a surge in large wildfires 
across many States, including California. Top five fires of 
2021 cost over $1.7 billion, and each lasted for more than 1 
month. NASA is researching how UAS and AAM capabilities can be 
applied to the challenge of wildland fire. We've successfully 
demonstrated initial capabilities with the United States Forest 
Service and CalFire. NASA plans to develop a portable UTM 
system to enable 24-hour aerial separation by remotely operated 
UAS. As an agency, we will work together with other government 
agencies to develop a joint concept of operations to advance 
the state-of-the-art.
    Thank you again for allowing me to address this Committee. 
I would also like to thank this Committee for its continued 
support of NASA aeronautics research, and I look forward to 
answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Kopardekar follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Mr. Babin. Thank you, Dr. P.K., appreciate that.
    Now, I'd like to recognize Ms. Ellman for 5 minutes to 
present her testimony.

                 TESTIMONY OF MS. LISA ELLMAN,

         EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COMMERCIAL DRONE ALLIANCE

    Ms. Ellman. Thank you. Chairman Babin, Ranking Member 
Lofgren, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you 
for the opportunity to share my thoughts with you at this 
important hearing on how we can safely integrate advanced 
aviation technologies into the National Airspace System for the 
benefit of all Americans.
    My name is Lisa Ellman, and I am the Executive Director of 
the Commercial Drone Alliance and Chair of the Global Uncrewed 
Aircraft Systems Practice at Hogan Lovells law firm.
    The CDA is an independent nonprofit organization made up of 
leading entrepreneurs and innovators in the industry. We work 
closely with the Federal Government to enable safe, secure, and 
timely drone integration. I am honored to provide remarks to 
inform your consideration of how the United States can enhance 
our role as a global leader in advanced aviation, including 
through research and development.
    The commercial drone industry is delivering significant 
lifesaving societal and economic benefits for all Americans. As 
just a few examples, drones are fighting wildfires, responding 
to disasters, including recent train derailments, and enhancing 
public safety. Drones are enhancing worker safety as well. In 
2020, there were 54 accidents, resulting in 13 deaths in the 
aerial agricultural industry, including in many States 
represented by this Committee. Use of drones for these 
operations can prevent such fatalities.
    Drones are democratizing aviation by opening the industry 
to a broader workforce, creating jobs and boosting our economy. 
Drones are promoting infrastructure resilience, providing early 
detection of oil and gas leaks, and inspecting our Nation's 
railways, bridges, and electrical grid. Drones are expanding 
access to medicines and critical supplies, including for 
vulnerable populations. Drones are enhancing sustainability and 
reducing carbon emissions associated with traditional 
transportation methods. Advancing this industry will ensure 
America's global competitiveness, our national security, and 
our leadership in global aviation.
    But these benefits cannot yet be truly realized here in the 
United States because regulatory paralysis has limited the 
integration of UAS into the national airspace. Congress led the 
way in 2012 by mandating UAS integration. In the decades, since 
that mandate remains unfulfilled as drones are often subject to 
application of incongruous regulations designed for crewed 
aircraft.
    Despite the best efforts of many, the FAA continues to view 
UAS integration as, in its own words, a long road ahead and a 
significant challenge. Meanwhile, America is falling behind 
other countries, both allies and competitors. In order to 
survive, many U.S. companies have had to pursue opportunities 
in international markets. This trend will only accelerate so 
long as the U.S. Government fails to integrate UAS here at 
home.
    Bold and decisive congressional leadership is necessary 
once again to spur progress. Research and development has a 
critical role to play here. But research and development has 
been exceedingly difficult for U.S. companies under the current 
regulatory framework. To illustrate, consider that a U.S. 
company designing an uncrewed aircraft that weighs 55 pounds or 
more must currently wait years to begin conducting R&D under--
on its own property due to lengthy approval processes. While 
innovative programs like BEYOND and Test Sites try to offer 
alternative pathways, these programs are also often plagued by 
lengthy regulatory approval processing times.
    Congress can fix these challenges. The CDA commends the co-
sponsors of the National Drone and Advanced Air Mobility 
Initiative Act for your commitment to accelerate the deployment 
of these beneficial technologies. There is much good in the 
bill. In line with the spirit and intent of the legislation, we 
have several ideas to improve it. I will highlight just a few 
of them here.
    First, we urge Congress to focus on leveraging existing 
resources, such as ASSURE (Alliance for System Safety of UAS 
through Research Excellence), the BEYOND program, and UAS Test 
Sites, and enable these programs to actually function as they 
were meant to, as proving grounds for innovation.
    Second, R&D priorities should focus on validating future 
UAS capabilities in complex airspace.
    Third, Congress should take additional measures to support 
the growth of UAS and AAM manufacturing capabilities in the 
United States.
    And finally, Congress should support the integration of 
counter-drone technologies into complex civil environments, 
including around busy airports and at mass gathering events.
    The absence of a viable UAS regulatory framework continues 
to be the most significant barrier to integration, and a robust 
R&D program will only succeed if accompanied by a reasonable 
regulatory environment.
    The CDA appreciates the opportunity to appear before you. 
We look forward to continuing to collaborate with you to ensure 
America's global leadership in advanced aviation. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Ellman follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much, Ms. Ellman.
    I'd like to now recognize Mr. Casey for 5 minutes to offer 
his--present his testimony.

          TESTIMONY OF MR. SEAN CASEY, CHIEF RESEARCH
          AND DEVELOPMENT ENGINEER, AIRWISE SOLUTIONS;
                ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, SYSTEM SAFETY
       AND RELIABILITY ANALYSIS AT TINKER AIR FORCE BASE,
       OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

    Mr. Casey. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Casey. Honorable Chairman Babin, Honorable Committee 
Ranking Member Lofgren, and esteemed Members of the U.S. House 
Science, Space, and Technology Committee, without any undue 
exaggeration, this is a Sputnik moment. The Chinese high 
altitude balloon or HAB, or uncrewed high-altitude system, UHS, 
this term chosen purposefully as this is actually a drone by 
definition and capability set, or UHS incursions directly over 
U.S. continental home space this late January to early February 
2023 are historically only rivaled in audacity or encroachment 
by the USSR Soviet Sputnik programs of 1957 and beyond. The 
wake of such early cold war events and Sputnik air technology 
being flown directly over continental U.S. airspace in 1957 led 
to an exasperated U.S. public, which in turn led to the 
establishment of the Select Committee on Astronautics and Space 
Exploration in 1958, which today is this very Committee, the 
U.S. Science, Space, and Technology Committee I'm honored to 
speak before.
    It is important that we are no longer in a cold war to 
establish the most elite forms of the best technology in the 
world against the USSR, but rather a cool war to establish the 
most scalable forms of good-to-great technology against the 
People's Republic of China and the ever-domineering Chinese 
Communist Party. The CCP has a published Beijing policy such as 
the Shashoujian Policy or Strategy, which is also known as 
Assassin's Mace or Death by a Million Cuts. This seeks to use 
an array of affordable ballistic missiles, cyber attacks, and 
commercially produced or copied aerial UAS or AAM technologies 
to overwhelm U.S. air superiority by a basis of cost-to-defeat 
scenarios.
    Much like forcing the United States to spend millions of 
dollars to scramble multiple F-22 fifth-gen fighters, deployed 
U-2 Lady Bird high-altitude reconnaissance planes, and deploy 
additional E-3 Sentry AWACS (airborne warning and control 
system) and supporting RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft, then to 
further spend potentially several million more in ground-based 
radar support and advanced real-time satellite imagery to 
ultimately fire a $399,000 ballistic missile, the Aim-9X, to 
pop a UHS or balloon.
    Today, I testify representing AirWise Solutions, a midscale 
UAS startup. AirWise Solutions, Incorporated, is uniquely a 
U.S.-based uncrewed aerial system hardware and software 
manufacturer with academia backgrounds that exist in the 
jurisdictions of Oklahoma, tribal nation, and HUBZone 
(Historically Under-utilized Business Zone) allocated lands. We 
believe that American small business fully encapsulate the 
actual need for U.S. manufacturing development and the 
entrepreneurial spirit of the proposed bill. It is 
unquestionable this bill will be transformative for the U.S.-
based UAS manufacturing industrial base, and as such, we are 
honored to offer our congressional testimony and support for 
the concept of the National Drone Advanced Air Mobility 
Initiative Act.
    I previously had the privilege of serving in Department of 
Defense counter-UAS capacities as an active participant in a 
multiyear, tri-service advanced autonomous platform activity 
when the original concerns of covered foreign nation data 
security breaches in turn triggered the sanctions of section 
848 of the NDAA (National Defense Authorization Act) for Fiscal 
Year 2020. Since January 2021, I have served as the Chief 
Research and Development Engineer for the largest Oklahoma 
origin U.S. manufacturer. Now on the opposite side of counter-
UAS development in the world of U.S.-based UAS development, I 
have the firsthand knowledge of the incredible strain U.S. 
industry has gone through to meet NDAA section 848 compliance 
and/or Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) Blue List or Blue UAS 
compliance.
    With the passage of the original NDAA section 848 sanctions 
over an estimated 80 percent of the commercial U.S. market in 
the United States with DJI, again, a single China origin vendor 
accounting for 76.1 percent of the market, was no longer 
immediately available for supporting Federal acquisition of 
UAS.
    The effects of NDAA section 848 were largely twofold. The 
United States Government no longer maintained a strong 
industrial base to rapidly acquire even basic small UAS, and 
thus, a critical supply chain issue exists. And B, U.S. 
industrial--U.S. industry largely did not compete with covert 
foreign nations, namely the People's Republic of China for 
small UAS technology development, and was or is largely 
unprepared to match United States Government more advanced 
technology needs.
    Moreover, with the critical technology and developments in 
the ongoing Ukraine invasion, we have seen the emergence of the 
small UAS technology becoming a force multiplier, with a 
critical supply chain that few analysts could have predicted in 
the 21st century battlefield. It is important to note the same 
small UAS technology emerging in the recent military events is 
the same technology that is really driving a profound 
renaissance in our industry. From multispectral cameras in 
agriculture, to methane detection in oil and natural gas 
safety, to photogrammetry technology in survey grade 
construction for infrastructure, to ozone detection and 
environmental protection and even last-mile delivery for 
medical devices or equipment. To direct science and technology 
applications ranging from collecting medical--excuse me, whale 
snot or marine data via UAS, monitoring global greenhouse gases 
via UAS, and even to flying into active category 4 hurricanes 
for atmospheric monitoring data via UAS.
    However, currently the NDAA section 848 has actually kind 
of put the United States Government in a position where we only 
have 15 approved platforms you, as the government, can actually 
purchase.
    The U.S. UAS industry has a strong history of hobbyists, 
tinkerers and garage shops, but ultimately, it's going to be up 
to this Committee to accelerate them into a commercial 
industry. It's going to be up to this actual bill and this 
actual industry involvement this Committee is focused on to 
actually catch up globally and further be a U.S. technology 
global leader, as is the American way.
    Thank you for your time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Casey follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir, thank you very much.
    I'd like--I thank all the witnesses for your testimony, and 
we're looking forward to hearing some of your expertise for our 
questions.
    So the Chair would like to recognize himself for 5 minutes, 
and I'll start with Dr. P.K.
    Your testimony indicates that NASA is working with 
Department of Defense's Agility Prime to analyze AAM supply 
chain needs, gaps, and opportunities for the U.S. manufacturing 
sector to grow. Can you elaborate on what this entails? As 
we've heard from multiple sources, UAS supply chains are 
particularly vulnerable to foreign exploitation as a result of 
offshoring, design, manufacturing, and R&D.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Chairman, very important question for U.S. 
competitiveness and domestic jobs in manufacturing. If you look 
at the conventional aerospace and defense, there are about 50 
percent jobs that are in supply chain and over 50 percent 
revenue comes from supply chain, so it's really critical that 
we maintain that competency in the United States.
    As a result, DOD and NASA, we started a joint working group 
as the industry related to advanced air mobility we're just 
kicking off. The idea of this working group is to educate the 
advanced air mobility new entrants about the need for setting 
up supply chains early on, as well as building awareness for 
small and medium sized enterprises about the opportunities that 
advanced air mobility is going to bring for manufacturing. So 
the goal is to try to promote the gaps that exist today and say 
that here are the opportunities for small and medium 
enterprises to launch businesses related to manufacturing and 
supply chain in the aerospace and defense world, particularly 
advanced air mobility.
    And we continue to do this work in collaboration with the 
DOD's Agility Prime. We share with everyone our lessons learn 
from the previous experiences, in what happened with the 
drones, as well as commercial aerospace and defense and 
importance of building a resilient supply chain. So ultimately, 
we would like to understand all the needs, identify the gaps 
and opportunities so that our domestic manufacturing sector can 
continue to grow.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. I've got one more for you, 
Dr. P.K., and if I've got time I'm going to go to Ms. Ellman.
    As I mentioned, Dr. P.K., at the beginning of this hearing, 
I have a unique interest in MQ-9 Reaper operations within our 
National Airspace System. In 2018, as part of the UAS-NAS 
research project, NASA flew an unmanned aircraft in the NAS 
without a chase plane. What is preventing the integration of 
our Nation's remotely piloted aircraft into the NAS, whether 
for civil or military application? No, this is for Dr.----
    Dr. Kopardekar. For me, OK. Yes.
    Mr. Babin. Sorry.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Thank you again, Chairman, for this very 
insightful question, by the way, that NASA uses RQ-4 planes 
already for monitoring the launches and collect data in real 
time for the health and status monitoring of the launch 
systems. In terms of the MQ-9, I'm really delighted to see the 
MQ-9 team was here. Those--the MQ-9--some MQ-9s that we 
collaborated with have detect and avoid systems, and once you 
have detect and avoid, then you don't need the chase. But if 
you don't have detect and avoid on board or on the ground base 
detect and avoid to maintain the safety of the overall 
operation, then you would need a chase core.
    Now, NASA done--NASA has done fundamental research on the 
detect and avoid technologies to set the minimum operating 
performance standards, and that technology has resulted into a 
standard so--which we are very happy about.
    We--yes, we definitely plan to continue the research, to 
streamline the process, and work with FAA and others to ensure 
that we have detected our technologies for these emerging 
autonomous aircraft operations.
    Mr. Babin. OK, thank you very much. Ms. Ellman, your 
testimony describes a lengthy, burdensome, and bureaucratic 
process for conducting UAS R&D, and you conclude by stating 
that U.S.--a U.S. company must wait years to even begin 
conducting R&D activities, notwithstanding the fact that the 
vast majority of these operations occur over private property 
at low altitudes and in low risk rural environments. The FLIGHT 
R&D Act, the last piece of legislation this Committee produced 
in preparation for the last FAA reauthorization, would have 
granted exceptions for conducting R&D below 400 feet in Class G 
airspace, 5 miles away from airports and on a noninterference 
basis with crewed aircraft.
    Unfortunately, this provision was dropped in the final FAA 
reauthorization. While exemptions for recreational UAS use 
exists, conducting UAS R&D would not qualify because it is 
conducted for purposes beyond, quote, ``personal enjoyment.'' 
So how can Congress refine this provision to accelerate 
domestic UAS R&D and preserve American competitiveness as an 
attractive location to conduct UAS R&D?
    Ms. Ellman. Well, thank you, Chairman, for this very 
important question. And thank you for your leadership on this 
very important topic. As I did note in our testimony, it is a 
very burdensome process for a company to be able to do R&D here 
in the United States, including at their own private property. 
And this has become a big, large impediment for U.S. companies 
looking to refine and develop technology here in the United 
States. This is particularly true if you're operating outside 
the part 107 framework, so essentially, companies developing 
vehicles 55 pounds and heavier.
    So I think, you know, we would be--it's clear that the 
status quo is broken. I know that there are other efforts out 
there like test sites and the BEYOND program that are trying to 
provide some paths forward, but even they have some lengthy 
approval processes. And, you know, from our perspective, we--
you know, Congress can fix this issue. I think there are a 
number of ways that are possible to do it. We'd be happy to 
work with you on your proposal. Refining the airspace in which 
your proposal would enable R&D activity is one potential way of 
doing it, for example, limiting this activity to test sites or 
the BEYOND program, for example.
    But another idea is to look directly at these approval 
processes and simply right-size them for--and not actually 
require a rulemaking every time a company wants to be able to 
do research and development here in the United States, which 
is, you know, a lengthy, burdensome process that does, you 
know--most of it--much of it does not actually relate to safety 
in any way. So we would be very happy to work with you on that 
particular legislation, and thank you for your leadership on 
this important topic.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. My time has expired, so I 
now recognize Ms. Lofgren for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to return to the issue of wildfires in California. 
Right now, large parts of the State are underwater because of 
the floods. And because of that, when the floods go away, we're 
going to have an explosion of vegetation that will pose a fire 
risk, so we'll have both the floods and fires this year.
    I've been intrigued by NASA Ames' efforts to try and bring 
technology to the area of fighting wildfires. Now, I understand 
that most of these technologies or a lot of them have been 
developed at Ames. Could you expand on the portable UTM system 
you mentioned? What does it entail? How would it be deployed? 
What would it do?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, 
Congresswoman, for asking this very important question. Just--I 
just checked today. There are 10 large fires going on in this 
country across three States, so the fires are happening 
everywhere. And large fire, by the way, is defined as 300 acres 
or more. In 2021 alone, the top five fires costed over $1.7 
billion, and each lasted for more than 1 month. And the men and 
women fighting these fires do an incredible job, but we can 
give them better tools.
    And if you look at how the current aerial suppression 
efforts occur, there is an air boss that is flying in an 
aircraft watching outside the window for the helicopters and 
fixed-wing aircraft that are flying underneath that are 
dropping water and retardant. As a result, it's all eyeballed 
traffic management, so when the smokestacks show up, all the 
visibility goes down, they stop the operations. So effectively, 
they fight fires through aerial means about 6 to 8 hours a day. 
You can imagine if we continue the firefighting to 24 hours a 
day how much impact we can generate and how quickly we can 
extinguish these fires.
    So the goal of using drones and drone traffic management or 
UAS and UAS traffic management UTM is to create a second shift 
environment where you can continue the operations under low 
visibility conditions by remotely operating these drones 
outfitted with water and retardant capabilities and managed by 
UTM in a box that is basically ensuring that the trajectories 
are deconflicted with each other and they're monitoring the 
trajectories for safe operations. And you can continue to fight 
these operations 24 hours. So that's sort of the idea of using 
advantages of UAS and UTM technologies.
    Additionally, the electric vertical takeoff landing 
vehicles who can go and dispatch basically logistics equipment 
the night before when the firefighters go on the job in the 
morning, so we have opportunities to use these automated 
technologies to drop, dispatch equipment, logistics support, to 
basically reduce the burden that they had to carry with all the 
equipment. So a lot of opportunities exist.
    Also, one last example I'll offer you is the large drone 
with--high altitude long endurance drone can be outfitted with 
communication support equipment, while the communications are 
not available when the--while firefighting is happening. So 
really exciting opportunities. And I think we are--NASA is 
taking charge of collaborating with industry, as well as other 
government agencies to increase the--improve the state-of-the-
art.
    Ms. Lofgren. Now these plans would require heavier drones 
than we're currently having. The FAA has been identified as a 
barrier. Are there other barriers that we need to address to 
get to what you've just described? Because this is critical for 
the State of California as well as other States.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, this is very important capability and 
definitely going to change the game. Fortunately, wildland 
firefighting and aerial suppression happens during Temporary 
Flight Restrictions (TFRs), so the barriers are less to be able 
to try automated systems and automated technology because no 
one else flies in that airspace. So I think we get good FAA 
support. We have been collaborating with FAA on this concept.
    Ms. Lofgren. Have they approved that yet?
    Dr. Kopardekar. We are collaborating. Right now, it's still 
in the basically conceptual and development phase.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, I thank you very much. You're right. Our 
firefighters do a tremendous job, but we really need to allow 
them to have this force multiplier for their sake, as well as 
the public. So thank you very much, Doctor.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. And now I'd like to 
introduce the Representative of Florida's Space Coast, Mr. 
Posey.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you very much, Chairman Babin.
    Dr. Kopardekar, given your testimony and experience, 
besides our GPS (Global Positioning System) system, what ever--
what other navigation options is NASA looking at for unmanned 
aircraft systems and advanced air mobility?
    Dr. Kopardekar. It's a very important question, and I 
really appreciate the support that we have and collaboration 
with Kennedy Space Center team. We have a number of options for 
alternatives to--it's called APNT, Alternative Positioning, 
Navigation and Timing technologies of GPS, so to speak. One of 
them is using low altitude, basically the satellite consortium, 
then using geo satellite consortium, as well as fiber optics-
related technologies. And another one that is currently being 
tested at a couple of NASA centers is using ground-based 
satellites or ground-based beacons to triangulate the 
positions, so not depending on the satellite-based GPS, but the 
ground-based system. So we have a number of opportunities, and 
we are using SBIR, as well as some collaborative research with 
industry to figure out how will this be basically taken into 
account, right, to mitigate the effects of GPS degradation.
    We are also working with the FAA to understand what the 
requirements would be for advanced air mobility. This is also a 
critical component because if you want to operate in a 
multiport in an urban airspace, you would need similar 
technologies to ensure foolproof navigation.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Ellman, you mentioned when talking about unmanned 
spacecraft systems or aircraft systems, that American 
leadership is at risk. Would you care to elaborate a little 
bit?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. And thank you so much, 
Representative, for the question. It's an important one.
    You know, here--around the world, we've realized the 
benefits of this technology. And here in the United States, the 
technology has moved quickly ahead while the policies have 
somewhat lagged behind. And around the world--you know, so 
companies have really struggled to be able to scale here in the 
United States, and that's because regulators and policymakers 
who are lots of really great people working across the Federal 
Government, including at the FAA, trying to fit a square peg 
into a round hole, which doesn't fit, not surprisingly. They're 
trying to regulate UAS using incongruence regulations designed 
for crewed aircraft, and it's simply not working. And so we 
need broad regulations here in the United States in order to 
really open this industry up and bring these amazing benefits 
to the American people.
    Around the world, other countries and nations, 
jurisdictions, including, you know, Australia, the E.U., 
other--you know, many other countries around the world are 
quickly moving forward. And frankly, many, many companies here 
in the United States, U.S. companies are having to go abroad in 
order to operate.
    There is a national security imperative, there is an 
economic imperative. We can bring so much money here to the 
United States. But it's also a national security issue. If we 
do not have this, you know, this industry cannot succeed here 
at home. And of course, we've heard a lot about China has their 
own plan focusing on the civil drone industry and becoming the 
global leader. And we need that same national vision, that same 
national plan here in the United States, and Congress can play 
a critical role here.
    Mr. Posey. What should we do next to accomplish that?
    Ms. Ellman. Well, we have lots of ideas, and we'd be happy 
to work with you. I think in the short term--I mean, obviously, 
R&D is critical. That's what we're here to talk about. But that 
said, you can't really unpair the R&D from the regulatory 
because the regulatory enables R&D or in this, you know, 
instance is getting in the way of R&D. So there does need to be 
attention to the regulatory issues both to enable research and 
development here in the United States, as well as broad 
rulemakings, enabling expanded operations, enabling beyond 
visual line-of-sight, moving the--you know, right now, the 
approvals here in the U.S. are very limited. Generally, the--
first of all, if you want to fly beyond visual line-of-sight, 
in order to, you know, bring these vast benefits to your 
community, you have to actually go through a very lengthy 
approval process, and the approval itself will likely be site-
specific, geographic-specific, and incredibly limited.
    Mr. Posey. We're talking FAA here?
    Ms. Ellman. Yes, we're talking FAA here, so----
    Mr. Posey. I can't imagine FAA is dragging their feet and 
holding up progress.
    Ms. Ellman. There are a lot of great people at the FAA 
trying to--trying really hard, but it simply hasn't worked thus 
far. So, you know, we appreciate--we do think Congress needs to 
lead here.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, my 
time is about to expire. I yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you.
    I'd now like to recognize the gentlewoman from North 
Carolina, Ms. Ross.
    Ms. Ross. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And this 
is such an important hearing. Thank you so much to the 
panelists for being here to testify.
    I'm proud to represent North Carolina's 2nd Congressional 
District, and our State's Department of Transportation (NCDOT) 
is one of eight lead participants in the FAA's BEYOND program. 
The BEYOND program is a 4-year program following the former FAA 
Integration Pilot Program (IPP) that aims to achieve 
economically viable, scalable, and repeatable beyond visual 
line-of-sight uncrewed aircraft system flight operations. I 
said that all in one. NCDOT has conducted over 21,000 flight 
operations, which exceeds the number of flights conducted in 
total, under the FAA IPP program among all lead participants.
    There has also been critical work done to enhance the 
delivery of medical supplies, as well as install low altitude 
weather radars across the State. The work of NCDOT, with its 
BEYOND program, illustrates the great strides that are being 
made in North Carolina to advanced UAS integration. But as 
you've said, so much more can be done.
    I know Ms. Ellman, you've been asked a lot of questions, 
but I'm going to start with you and then I'll move on. It's my 
understanding that the FAA has seven designated test sites 
around the country to enable both private sector firms and 
public entities to test complex drone operations and conduct 
research and drone technology. How has the commercial drone 
industry benefited from these test sites?
    Ms. Ellman. Thank you, Representative, for that question. 
And thank you for your support of the great work that is 
happening in North Carolina. Many of our CDA members are 
working with the North Carolina DOT. They've been a fantastic 
partner. And it really kind of brings into focus one of the 
real benefits of the BEYOND program is that it--we have been 
able to, in a limited way, bring some of these benefits to 
local communities. And of course, North Carolina is one--was 
one area.
    The test sites as well have been critical partners for the 
FAA and critical partners for the commercial drone industry. 
That said, their effectiveness has been limited. They're trying 
to do a lot. They've gathered a decade's worth of data. It's 
unclear at this point kind of where all that data has gone 
since we haven't seen the rulemakings that we were hoping for. 
But they've also been limited by some of the--you know, the 
FAA's kind of interpretation, for example, of public aircraft 
operations. For the last several years, companies were able to 
work hand-in-hand with test sites to do research and 
development. And then over the last year or two, we've been 
essentially told by the FAA that, no, you can't--that, you 
know, they've changed their interpretation or in any case that 
they have this reading of the law that prevents test sites or 
any public entity, including public universities or other 
public agencies, to collaborate with private industry under the 
aeronautical research prong of research and development that's 
traditionally regulated.
    Ms. Ross. OK. I want to move on actually on that issue to 
Dr. Jacob.
    And, Dr. Jacob, could you talk a little bit about 
universities' use of these test sites and the collaboration 
that Ms. Ellman was discussing?
    Dr. Jacob. Yes, of course. And thank you, Congresswoman 
Ross, for that question. Again, I'd like to reiterate that 
North Carolina has been doing really great work and has been a 
fantastic example of what you can accomplish with the BEYOND 
program. These--access to the BEYOND program capabilities has 
been very transformational for university research in that we 
can work with these local test sites to be able to push the 
limits of what we're developing in the laboratory. So this has 
been very impactful for what we've been able to do. But like 
Ms. Ellman said, there are limitations in terms of the approval 
process in getting access to the airspace to really push the 
limits of aviation technology.
    If you think about traditionally what we would do with a 
manned aircraft, for example, that process is not dissimilar to 
what you would have with an uncrewed aerial vehicle, but you'd 
have to jump through extra hoops to be able to get that robotic 
aircraft in the air and tested even at the test sites. And in 
particular, since the test sites tend to be self-funded, they 
have to, you know, primarily resource assets and access to 
personnel through other nontraditional means.
    Ms. Ross. And could you just briefly elaborate on the 
disincentives for collaboration that Ms. Ellman discussed?
    Dr. Jacob. Well, we still have to go through the same 
processes in terms of getting flight approvals. There's just 
extra access at the FAA level to be able to provide expertise 
to help assist the BEYOND program members in achieving those 
permissions.
    Ms. Ross. OK, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. And I'd like to recognize the 
gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Tenney.
    Ms. Tenney. Thank you so much, Chairman Lucas and Acting 
Chair Dr. Babin, and happy birthday, and also to Ranking Member 
Lofgren, for holding this hearing. And thank you for all the 
witnesses for your time and your expertise on this really 
important issue.
    And increasingly, these unmanned aerial systems are used by 
our law enforcement, border patrol, and military to carry out 
our critical homeland and national security operations. As 
every American knows, we currently have a crisis at the 
southern border, and UAS technologies can be a critical 
resource for the Border Patrol agents in addressing the crisis. 
This also plays a pivotal role in keeping our service members 
out of harm's way. Thank you to the gentlemen who were here 
earlier for serving our Nation so honorably.
    But while UAS are used in a number of amazing ways, they're 
also being leveraged by criminals and our adversaries. And I'm 
honored to represent New York's 24th Congressional District, 
which includes a large section of our northern border in 
upstate New York, and if anyone's ever been there, the 
spectacularly beautiful area north of Clayton all the way to 
Lockport, including all the Finger Lakes.
    And I just recently spent an entire day with the Customs 
and Border agents from the Buffalo border sector, which borders 
onto the Swanton sector, which is where we're seeing this 
massive increase in immigrants. And they were describing to me 
how these drug runners are using UAS drones to enhance their 
drug trafficking efforts at the U.S.-Canadian border.
    Additionally, our Nation watched as the Chinese flew a UAS 
sky balloon over our country for a week before President Biden 
finally decided to act on taking down the spy craft. So as 
such, we need to make further investments in this counter UAS 
technology and to help counteract this malign use of these UAS 
technologies, particularly when you see the interaction with 
the border agents. But with proper investment, we can help our 
law enforcement, military, border agents in doing some of the 
great things that you guys are all researching and talking 
about.
    But I want to first ask, Mr. Jacob, in your testimony, and 
your role as Director of County--Counter UAS Center of 
Excellence at Oklahoma State University in great Oklahoma 
State. But as you may be aware, the current Secretary of 
Homeland Security must individually authorize each border 
sector to perform Counter Unmanned Aerial Systems (CUAS) 
operations. This is a major issue in the Buffalo border sector 
where it took 3 weeks for Secretary Mayorkas to authorize this 
CUAS operation. Do you believe that these counter UAS systems 
should be used by the Customs and Border Patrol across the 
border, including the southern border I might add as they're 
being used now or hopefully to be used soon?
    Dr. Jacob. Well, I do think that this technology will 
provide a great asset for border protection and monitoring. As 
you mentioned, Congresswoman Tenney, this is a serious problem 
not only for incursions across the border, but potentially use 
of commercial UAS to transport illicit materials such as drugs 
across the border.
    One of the problems that Federal agencies have is the 
limited capability or access to assets, which are commonly 
called, you know, blue UAS systems within the U.S. that have 
been approved for not only manufacture but also vendors to 
provide capabilities and purchasing for Federal agencies to 
utilize these systems within the national airspace.
    As was mentioned by Chairman Babin earlier, the predominant 
manufacturer of UAS across the world are Chinese, which then 
does limit our capability to use these systems within the 
national borders.
    Ms. Tenney. So you think we definitely--you support U.S. 
investment--continued investment, and you don't think it's 
sufficient?
    Dr. Jacob. That--I would agree with that statement, yes.
    Ms. Tenney. OK. Can you discuss maybe some of this--the 
counter UAS systems for 21st century combat and military 
readiness also, and whether--where we are in terms of 
investment in that aspect--in that area?
    Dr. Jacob. Yes, that's a great question, Congresswoman 
Tenney. This is an area where 10 years ago, you know, the 
United States essentially ruled the skies. And it was only 
through, you know, the advent of commercial systems, which are 
readily purchasable by non-State actors such as ISIS (Islamic 
State of Iraq and Syria) and allow these systems to be used 
against U.S. personnel overseas that we realized that we were 
falling behind, primarily in terms of being able to develop 
systems that will not only detect and identify these, but 
determine a way to defeat them.
    This goes back to, you know, some of the concerns we raised 
earlier in providing access to test sites, which not only 
requires FAA approval, but also approval from other Federal 
agencies, such as the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) 
for spectrum management.
    Ms. Tenney. I want to reclaim my time just 1 second.
    Dr. Jacob. Oh, please go ahead.
    Ms. Tenney. I want to ask Ms. Ellman. In your testimony, 
you said that 70 to 80 percent of the unmanned aerial systems 
market is controlled by nine U.S. companies. Can you just tell 
us briefly, if Mr. Chairman will allow a couple extra seconds, 
how we can increase manufacturing, especially as China uses 
these UAS systems for malicious purposes?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thanks for that question. In real--
on the counter UAS challenges, I just want to mention for a 
minute because there are lots of legal challenges, it is a 
national security imperative that we enable our counter UAS 
companies to test and do research and development here in the 
United States. The Peters legislation, the Safeguardingthe 
Homeland from the Threats posed by Unmanned Aircraft Systems 
Act, from last year, hopefully we'll see again this year, but 
that would actually create a pilot program to enable States, 
localities, and private sector entities to actually do R&D. 
Right now, as you noted, it's been limited to just a few 
Federal agencies with very, very lengthy approval times even 
within those Federal agencies to get approval to use the 
technology.
    On manufacturing, we absolutely agree it's very important 
to bolster the domestic manufacturing industrial base here in 
the United States. We think the best way to do that is by 
opening up the regulations to allow this activity. Right now, 
it's very difficult for U.S. companies to succeed. But there 
are other direct and indirect funding ways to bolster the 
industrial base, and we'd be happy to work with you on that.
    Ms. Tenney. Thank you. I appreciate all the witnesses. My 
time has expired. But I just want to say we've been trying to 
do this. My former colleague, John Katko, and I up in Syracuse 
area, we've been trying to develop this region. It's been--
we're ideal location in upstate New York. So thank you so much 
to all of you. And unfortunately, my time has expired, but 
really appreciate your insights. Thank you.
    Ms. Ellman. And NUAIR (Northeast UAS Airspace Integration 
Research Alliance, Inc.) in Syracuse are doing great work on 
all that.
    Ms. Tenney. Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you all.
    I'd like to recognize the gentlewoman from Oregon, Ms. 
Salinas.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and happy birthday to 
you.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you to our panelists. It's been a great 
conversation today.
    So, Ms. Ellman, in Oregon and across the West, so teeing 
off of my colleague from California's questions, the threats 
from wildfires are increasing every year as climate change 
leads to drier and hotter weather patterns and more natural 
disasters. And in Oregon, fire season lasts longer each year 
and the cost of property damage, firefighting, disaster relief 
have skyrocketed as fires have become more severe. And in your 
testimony you referenced--and, again, we've talked a little bit 
about this. You've referenced the potential benefits of UAS to 
assist firefighting efforts in States like Oregon. Can you dig 
in a little bit more on what are the key research areas we need 
to focus on to improve effectiveness and actually accelerate 
the deployment of UAS technologies in disaster relief 
situations like wildfires?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative, for that 
very important question.
    Obviously, disaster relief, firefighting is a critical use 
case for UAS, including in Oregon and in other States. And I 
want to praise NASA and P.K. and all of the work that is being 
done on that topic. There is certainly more that can be done.
    From our perspective, additional research and development 
is necessary in order to enable complex UAS operations, 
including, you know, in congested airspace. When there are 
wildfires, there could be helicopters as well in the future, 
AAM vehicles, essentially others in the airspace, and we need 
to be able to make sure that vehicles are all talking to each 
other, avoiding each other. You need to be able to fly over 
people. You need to be able to fly with heavy vehicles that can 
carry water and other materials. You need to be able to, you 
know, what we would describe as expanded operations. And 
obviously, in a wildfire situation where there's a TFR in 
place, that's one thing.
    There's also the benefit of using drones for preventing 
wildfires in the first place. And while there are processes in 
place, once that wildfire has started, there is a lot more that 
can be done on the front end to enable this technology to be 
used to prevent these wildfires in the first place. So I'd be 
happy to work with you and your office on that.
    Ms. Salinas. I would love that. Thank you.
    Dr. Kopardekar, thank you so much. You also mentioned wild 
firefighting in your testimony and you stressed the importance 
of interagency collaboration to ensure high standards of safety 
as UAS technology is deployed. So how can this Committee and 
what which should we be thinking about to facilitate improved 
interagency coordination to allow that faster development and 
deployment of UAS technological--technology in critical 
lifesaving areas such as disaster relief?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes. Thank you for very insightful 
question, Congresswoman. And this is really important that all 
the government agencies work together to develop interagency 
concept of operations and technology roadmap to assist the 
changes in the firefighting technologies. We are working with 
the U.S. Forest Service, National Guard, working with 
Department of Defense, FAA, FEMA (Federal Emergency Management 
Agency), Department of Interior, and many other government 
agencies, CalFire and Colorado fire and--to you understand 
really what would it take to change the paradigm of current 
wildland firefighting and modernize the firefighting efforts, 
as you pointed out, leveraging the UAS and advanced air 
mobility type of vehicles and continue the firefighting through 
aerial means for 24 hours a day so you--they don't have to stop 
based on just visual conditions. So there is a lot that is 
ongoing, and we are very excited with the collaboration that we 
have with many government agencies to bring forward this mutual 
concept of operations.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you. And then just a quick follow up, 
how should Federal research agencies work alongside our first 
responders to actually gather data and learn lessons from what 
we are seeing now? And it sounds like changing the paradigm 
really is, you know, a bigger endeavor, but from these limited 
test cases, which might then use to develop strong safety 
standards for the broader use of UAS across American airspace.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, so National Interagency Fire Center 
that basically currently does many of these coordination 
efforts, does a really good job of bringing out the data and 
statistics online. In fact, the statistics that I quoted about 
the 10 large fires that are ongoing right now in three States 
comes from that website. So there is a really ongoing effort 
already preestablished. There is interagency working groups for 
a number of activities, including aviation and the safety of 
the operations. And we would like to continue to do that to 
build the next technology front.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you so much, and I yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much. And I'd now 
like to recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Webster.
    Mr. Webster. Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Webster. Appreciate it. Happy birthday to you, too.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you.
    Mr. Webster. So I have a question and just a general 
question to anybody that's there who want to hear about it is 
do we have the space for being able to overlay and a growing 
unmanned air vehicle system overtop what's already there? I 
mean, I have--know there's a regular highway system that we 
have. That's roads and bridges and all that. Then there's a 
shipping lane highway system. And there's also an in-air 
highway system for air traffic. So my general question is are 
we going to run out of space?
    Dr. Kopardekar. This is a very good--that's a very good and 
important question. At NASA we have four transformational 
priorities. One is ultraefficient aircraft. Another one is high 
speed regime for flight. Third is the future of airspace, and 
this is exactly what it relates to. And the fourth is advanced 
air mobility. In the future of airspace, we are working on 
something called Sky for All. The Sky for All vision is about 
accommodating many, many different types of airspace users. As 
you can imagine, in 2045 how the airspace may look like, as you 
pointed out, shuttle launchers or rocket launchers, small 
drones, advanced air mobility, current manned aircraft, 
helicopters, general aviation, many types of vehicles. So we 
are looking at this.
    Inside that Sky for All vision, we want to build a new 
architecture, work collaboratively with FAA and industry and 
figure out what would be the right architecture that will allow 
the scale, diversity, and density that is required to operate 
in the future state. So we are going to do research on what 
technologies are needed, what automation is necessary, what 
were the roles, responsibilities of people and machines, and 
how do you maintain all the safety of operations at that scale? 
So it's a really important question. It's very much important--
needed for U.S. competitiveness and economic growth.
    Mr. Webster. A follow up, I--this just a general question. 
Who would--whoever's guiding that--and I'm sure there'll be 
someone or some thing or some people or some group or whatever, 
who do they talk to in an unmanned craft? I mean, who--what 
would you--who would you, hey, change course or whatever? I 
don't know. Give me an example.
    Ms. Ellman. Sure. Well, at least to date, right, UAS 
operations are out--they're not actually uncrewed. They're 
remotely piloted, so there is a pilot for the operation. 
They're simply not on the aircraft. So it looks a little 
different. But to your point, right, it's obviously critical 
that we maintain the safety and also the efficiency of the 
airspace. That's what the Federal Government is asked to do. 
And that's where this unmanned or uncrewed traffic management 
UTM system comes--becomes really important for the future and 
needs to be implemented. But when you think about where these 
UAS are flying compared to traditional aircraft, this is low 
altitude airspace where generally commercial crewed aircraft 
aren't or shouldn't be flying.
    Mr. Webster. OK. My time is going to run out here shortly. 
I just thank you all for coming. It's a very informative and 
very interesting subject and look forward to the future. I 
yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. And now I'd like to recognize the 
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Sorensen.
    Mr. Sorensen. I would like to wish Mr. Babin a happy 
birthday, thank him and Ranking Member Lofgren for convening 
this hearing and our witnesses today for their willingness to 
appear.
    At our Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics hearing--space 
a few weeks ago, we heard about the FAA's R&D on drones. I'm 
excited that, today, we can all learn more about NASA's R&D 
work in this area, as well as critical issues for commercial 
industry. So I'd like to ask about the coordination between 
NASA and the FAA to make sure that we're focused on safety and 
reliability of the network.
    Dr. Kopardekar, you've been a leader at NASA on the 
development of the UAS traffic management or UTM system. What 
does it actually mean for NASA to have handed off the UTM to 
the FAA? What has the FAA done with this since then? And I 
guess a finer point is how are we ensuring safety to those on 
the ground and also lower altitude general aviation?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Thank you, Congressman. That's--this is a 
very insightful question about safety and tech transition 
process between NASA and FAA. So unmanned aircraft system, 
basically, the focus is on enabling large scale drone 
operations at low altitude, below 400 feet roughly, about 55 
pound and below type of vehicles. We have been working with FAA 
right from the beginning. We developed initial concept to 
operations, and then we had engaging dialog about how would 
that work. And FAA also has published the concept of 
operations, several actually editions, two editions on the UTM 
concept of operations. So that's the first indicator that there 
is a willingness to take the technology and the concept.
    So it starts with the concept. So we have a mechanism 
called research transition team that collaborate--that 
basically solidifies the collaboration between NASA and FAA. 
Through the research transition team, we develop a joint 
management plan and we have clear deliverables that go from 
NASA to FAA. FAA is involved every step of the way. So a couple 
of examples of what it means to be transitioning technology or 
ideas or concepts from NASA to FAA first is the concept of 
operations that FAA accepted and put that as their own, which 
is really remarkable collaboration example.
    Second is the FAA's Low Altitude Authorization and 
Notification Capability, LAANC, which is really the first step 
toward UTM. So the concepts that we build in UTM--UTM is 
basically a collection of services to support the drone 
operations. So one of the services is this LAANC, that is 
digital, basically, airspace description that allows operators 
to get access to that airspace. So FAA has included that. They 
have already adopted the construct that we created called USS, 
which is unmanned aircraft systems service suppliers. This is 
the service using the service-oriented architecture and third 
party basically offering these services, so FAA has already 
adopted that. So in the concepts and technology in the roadmap, 
USS, and a third-party services providing these services as a 
critical piece.
    Fundamentally, in summary, UTM will provide strategic 
deconfliction. It will provide basically digital means of 
collaboration across a number of entities, including general 
aviation and any other users that want to have access to that 
information can be accessed. And then third-party services will 
offer services like flight planning, tracking, communication, 
weather data, and such. So all of those concepts and constructs 
have been adopted widely by FAA, as well as industry. And I'm 
also glad to say that it's been adopted by ICH (International 
Council for Harmonisation), which is an international body for 
harmonization across the globe.
    Mr. Sorensen. In my career as a broadcast meteorologist, I 
was the person that was out there chasing the tornado. We were 
the ones that were putting up a drone into the air because we 
knew that if we could show people at home the threat live on 
the air that they could make a good decision. But things have 
since changed in the past few years where now we have to have 
so many people on board to have the line-of-sight, to have the 
pilot, and it has become prohibitive for us--or for those 
people in broadcasting to do their jobs effectively. How do we 
change that?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Do you want to answer? OK. I'll go after 
you.
    Ms. Ellman. Yes, I'm happy----
    Mr. Sorensen. Sure. Thank you.
    Ms. Ellman [continuing]. To take that, absolutely.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you.
    Ms. Ellman. Well, no, absolutely. News gathering, you know, 
use cases, there's so many, so many benefits here. And the 
reality is, like you said, in order to be able to take 
advantage of the many benefits of commercial drones, we need to 
be able to fly beyond visual line-of-sight. Imagine if a crewed 
aircraft wasn't allowed to leave the airport. That's 
essentially what's happening right now with the UAS, and it's 
simply not scalable, and it's not possible to have a business 
here in the United States under the--you know, the current 
rules.
    So we've been working over the last several years--you 
mentioned I chaired--or I worked as a leader of a working group 
on the Beyond Visual Aviation Rulemaking Committee, that we 
provided a report to the FAA last year. And we're looking for a 
broad rulemaking to actually broadly enable this activity so 
that you don't have to go through a lengthy burdensome case-by-
case approval process anymore. That will really, truly help us 
scale here in the United States.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you so much for that. I yield back.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. And the gentlewoman from 
Oklahoma, Mrs. Bice?
    Mrs. Bice. Well, thank you. First, let me say happy 
birthday to Dr. Babin. It's great to be with you here 
celebrating.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you.
    Mrs. Bice. Second, thank you to our witnesses for being 
here and a particular personal point of privilege to Dr. Jacob 
and Mr. Casey for their attendance. As an Oklahoma State 
graduate and having two children there myself, I'm particularly 
excited to see you all here.
    My question has to do with how we're comparing to other 
countries. In your opinion, how does the United States compare 
to other nations on current progress in advanced manufacturing 
of UAS? And who would you say are our main competitors in this 
space? And this is open to any of the witnesses?
    Dr. Jacob. Yes, I'll start with that. And thank you for the 
question, Congresswoman Bice, and as well as for your tuition 
support to Oklahoma State University.
    Mrs. Bice. You're welcome. Times two.
    Dr. Jacob. We appreciate that.
    Mrs. Bice. Times two.
    Dr. Jacob. But, you know, there are areas where we 
certainly excel in. We've primarily been focused on the 
discussion today with UAS when we expand this and talk about 
advanced air mobility, the larger platforms that are really 
designed to carry people and larger supplies. You will see 
that, you know, primarily through private investment and 
venture capital. You know, the United States has many companies 
that are really excelling in terms of the development of these 
systems.
    You know, that said, there are other companies obviously 
across the world that are also, you know, trying to chase that 
prize to be able to be the first one to really successfully 
develop systems that can carry personnel cost effectively so 
that we compete with other transportation methods.
    If you look across the broad spectrum of not only just 
manufacturing, but also research, I would say that the United 
States is still at the forefront in terms of how we're using 
the autonomous systems, developing the avionics, the 
controllers, the flight algorithms, artificial intelligence 
that goes into these systems into much broader applications.
    I know the previous questions related to meteorology. 
That's a great example of that where we have cross-
collaborations between Federal agencies such as NASA, FAA, NOAA 
in order to be able to integrate things such as weather 
observations from drones into weather forecasting, which is 
going to be beneficial not only for severe weather, but also 
things such as wildfires. So there are a number of areas where 
we're certainly, I would say, still established at the lead.
    Mrs. Bice. Any additional----
    Ms. Ellman. Yes, sure, I'll just kind of add on there. I 
mean, from my perspective and from the perspective of the 
Commercial Drone Alliance, you look over the history of the 
United States, and our--the first century of aviation was 
dominated by the United States. We were clearly a leader from 
Kitty Hawk to the Moon and beyond, right? The reality is that 
the second century of aviation, which is characterized by 
increasingly autonomous uncrewed aircraft, is at risk. And we 
do--Congress needs to be a leader here, and we do need to take 
steps, including to bolster our manufacturing capabilities. As 
we've talked about, a lot of--you know, most of the small 
drones flying here in the United States were made in China. So 
to the extent that the United States wants to remain the global 
leader, which it is clearly in our best interest to do so, 
there are, you know, very specific steps that we can take and 
we can take now in order to make that happen.
    Mrs. Bice. Excellent. And last question, quickly here. What 
is the role of research universities like Oklahoma State to 
advance innovation in UAS and advanced air mobility?
    Dr. Jacob. Well, you know, these really are the sandboxes. 
And we think about, you know, one of the areas that the United 
States remains the global leader, it is higher education. 
People from all across the globe, you know, come to the United 
States to get an education at a U.S. university. And the--one 
of the unique aspects of, you know, U.S. research laboratories 
is the ability to not only conduct research that's funded by 
the Federal Government, but also research that's funded by 
private companies. For example, half of our work in the 
advanced air mobility in the U.S. sphere does not come from 
Federal funding directly, but from private companies, helping 
them get over that hump, develop that technology with--where 
they do not necessarily have that subject matter expertise in-
house. So we're working with a number of companies that are 
performing system development for other Federal projects such 
as Agility Prime in order to be able to develop those systems 
for everything to fight fires to be able to carry people. And 
it's that research laboratory, that sandbox that really 
provides a unique opportunity to be able to develop the systems 
in the lab and immediately go out and take them to test sites, 
you know, such as supported by the BEYOND program.
    Mrs. Bice. Perfect. My time is about to expire, so I will 
say, Go Pokes, and I'll yield back to Dr. Babin.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much.
    I'd like to recognize now the gentlewoman from Michigan, 
Ms. Stevens.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to our 
witnesses.
    We--Ms. Ellman, we on this Committee, we talk a lot about 
standards. We have oversight of the NIST (National Institute of 
Standards and Technology), and I'm interested in your 
perspectives on the standards needed here and work that has 
been done to date, particularly as we integrate here. So I was 
wondering if you could chime in on standards for us.
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative Stevens. 
Great to be here with you. My home State is Michigan, born and 
raised, so great to be here with you. And I appreciate that 
question.
    And we agree standards are critical. Industry consensus 
standards should really kind of drive how the UAS industry is 
able to function and scale. And our members are working very 
closely with standards by--within the context of existing 
standards, bodies like ASTM International. There's been a lot 
of great work that has been done by industry. I think one of 
the challenges has been that we don't have clarity on the 
rulemakings on the regulatory side, and so it's very difficult 
to--you know, then the rulemaking comes out later, and then you 
have to go back and kind of change up the standards. So the 
more information that we can get from the FAA, working closely 
with them on the rulemakings I think would be helpful. But 
certainly, there's a lot of great work that's being done on the 
standards side with ASTM International, as well as other 
standards bodies, and we would encourage Congress to really 
leverage those.
    Ms. Stevens. Yes. And, P.K., I can see you're jumping at 
the bit here. And, you know, if you want to chime in on 
standards, but it's always the thing, we're balancing, right, 
standards and R&D. And it's interesting because when we think 
unmanned, you know, all right, no one's flying the drone, 
right? No one is actually flying it. But is there ever a 
component where someone may be riding, you know, do we get to 
that? We've seen that obviously with commercial aircraft, well, 
you know, pilots and this and that, but we don't need to get 
into that. But I'd love to hear from you on cross-interagency 
standards as it relates to--I was going to ask you about R&D as 
well and, you know, thank you for the amazing testimony and how 
you're working across interagency.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, so a couple of areas we are working 
really well. In fact, I was here over the last couple of days 
for interagency working group at OSTP (Office of Science and 
Technology Policy) and Department of Transportation just kicked 
off to coordinate all activities as per the Advanced Air 
Mobility Leadership and Coordination Act. So all the 19 Federal 
agencies are coming together to make sure that we understand 
and respond to the growing needs of advanced air mobility. So 
this is really a good testament of collaboration as one 
government trying to respond to what's needed. And that's one 
of the lessons we learned from drones, that I think it really 
helps to have one government, all of us to--working together 
right from the innovation, technology, security, safety aspects 
considered simultaneously.
    Ms. Stevens. Do you think standards would help R&D?
    Dr. Kopardekar. In some cases, standards help R&D. In other 
cases, it's too early for standard, or sometimes you need just 
cooperative guidelines. So some of the examples of standards, 
particularly for--would be the detect and avoid technology. If 
you want to have detect and avoid, everybody needs to follow 
the same standards so that there is a cooperative nature in the 
airspace management. So detect and avoid will require a 
standard as an example, its capability that's onboard.
    Ms. Stevens. Well, and this is where, you know, Ms. Ellman, 
we can continue to draw on your coalition and your alliance, 
and thank you for your leadership. It's great to see Michigan 
launch into such an exciting place.
    And, Dr. Jacob, I love that you got EDA funding, right? And 
I actually wanted to specifically ask you about the pocket of 
EDA funding you got. Was that out of the Office of Innovation 
and Entrepreneurship? And how was your process in pursuing that 
funding? Are you going for other rounds? Do you see this--in--
I've been to EDA conferences or EDA Align--I've been to one EDA 
Align conference in Oklahoma in another life. But I was pleased 
to see that you mentioned that because in part, this Committee 
works with EDA and has a dotted line to it. And I certainly 
want to ask you about the cross-interagency collaboration, but 
very specifically about your experience of working with the 
Economic Development Administration, as much as you have 
purview into the dollars that you are receiving from that 
agency.
    Dr. Jacob. Sure. Thank you for that question, Congresswoman 
Stevens. And, you know, the EDA opportunity has been very 
unique, has been part of the Build Back Better programs.
    Ms. Stevens. OK, great.
    Dr. Jacob. So we're still just in the initial stages of 
that. But that is a great example of a public-private 
partnership where we have private funders that are providing 
part of the--your required cost share from Tulsa Innovation 
Laboratories, working with sovereign nations, in this case, the 
Osage Nation, and then Oklahoma State University, as well as 
other partners across the Tulsa region in order to be able to--
--
    Ms. Stevens. Yes.
    Dr. Jacob [continuing]. Make this.
    Ms. Stevens. And I am out of time, but we want to applaud 
you for how you're working with Indian Country and certainly 
keep up with your success on the Build Back Better. We had a 
hearing on that right at the end of the last term. So thank you 
so much, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Dr. Jacob. Thank you.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. I'd like to recognize the gentlewoman 
from North Carolina, Mrs. Foushee.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and happy birthday.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you so much.
    Mrs. Foushee. And thank you to our witnesses for appearing 
before this Committee today. I certainly appreciate this 
productive conversation with you about unmanned aviation sector 
and the potential considerations as we do deliberate possible 
legislation in this Committee and in the months ahead.
    Just last month, I visited Vance-Granville Community 
College. They have an aviation program in my congressional 
district, which is North Carolina's 4th. That program 
specializes in training commercial drone pilots and preparing 
students to become FAA part 107-certified. And recently, they 
were selected for the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft Systems 
Collegiate Training Initiative Program. The 4th Congressional 
District is also home to Carolina Drone Lab, which I will talk 
a little bit more about in my questioning.
    So my first question is for Ms. Ellman and Dr. P.K., if you 
can respond also. UNC (University of North Carolina) Chapel 
Hills, Carolina Drone lab has partnered with two organizations 
Vets to Drones and One Tree Planted to create the Veterans in 
the Forest program, a partnership to train veterans and provide 
on-the-job experience in drone-based forest monitoring 
technology. Can you speak a little bit about the importance of 
developing UAS rather training programs and the opportunities 
for workforce development with the civil science agencies under 
this Committee's jurisdiction?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative, for that 
very important question. It's a very special one for me. My 
husband is actually a disabled veteran. And I know that finding 
a rewarding career is one of the challenges service members 
face when transitioning out of the military. So, you know, from 
our perspective, absolutely the UAS industry is democratizing 
aviation and opening this industry up, opening doors to a 
diverse and new generation of Americans that are incredibly 
excited for this new--to use their skill sets, you know, for 
the benefit of--so many of the societal benefits that we've 
talked about today, including--and as NCDOT and others are 
supporting your State, whether forest monitoring or other use 
cases.
    So we are, you know, very, very supportive of efforts to 
promote workforce training programs. You know, I would mention 
the Drone Infrastructure Inspection Grant (DIIG) Act, which was 
passed by the House last year, and a bipartisan bill that 
would--one of the sections of the Act would fund a workforce 
development program for community colleges and universities who 
are training workers in drone technology. So thank you for 
that. You know, so we would urge more support for that bill 
this year. Hopefully, it will get through, and we're here to 
help. We appreciate the question.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you. And, Dr. P.K., can you also share 
if NASA is involved in any such effort?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, thank you. This is a really important 
question. And this really--the importance of this question is 
to make sure that we ensure that our workforce is ready when 
the drones and advanced air mobility industry is going to take 
off. So at NASA, we have a number of initiatives. The first one 
is Minority University Research and Education program. Through 
that, we have given six grants already for building advanced 
air mobility-related supply chain, workforce, curriculum, and 
internships for students.
    There's another program called University Leadership 
Initiative that we provide grants for faculty members who focus 
on some interesting technical challenge and problems. So one of 
them is the weather-related research. Another one is building 
this concept of operations at different communities for 
advanced air mobility.
    And third, a very exciting program is NASA Community of 
Aerospace Scholars, which is focused on community colleges. So 
we work with community colleges for building the trade and 
technical competency of students. On top of that, we have a 
very strong internship program. Anybody who's interested in 
internships intern.NASA.gov, please ask them to apply. We 
really take pride in getting good interns in--at all NASA 
centers.
    And personally, I have a steady stream of interns every 
semester. This semester, we are focusing on wildland fire 
application, so I really enjoy working with interns and getting 
to know them and mentor them.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, that is my time, but I would like to add 
three additional questions for the witnesses into the record.
    Mr. Babin. So ordered. Thank you.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you.
    Mr. Babin. OK. The gentlewoman--or, excuse me, the 
gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Miller.
    Mr. Miller. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking 
Member.
    I'm happy to hear today about NASA's involvement in the 
future of American advanced air mobility. As we're all aware, 
Chinese companies such as DJI make up overwhelmingly majority 
of the global unmanned aircraft system market, including for 
American law enforcement and consumers. This is even after the 
Department of Defense prohibited DJI products for national 
security concerns. Clearly--and clearly, we need to restore 
American leadership in this sector, and fast, lightning fast.
    My first question is really for any of the witnesses who 
would like to take it. As China continues to aggressively 
pursue made-in 25 policy to achieve dominance in critical 
industries, such as aerospace, what are some of the short-term 
and long-term actions the United States should take to promote 
American leadership in this space?
    Mr. Casey. Thank you, Congressman. I think really one of 
the primary things we can do is actually support manufacturers 
like my business and actually getting DIU Blue certification. 
Specifically what the S&T Committee can do of a high priority 
is establish their own equivalent within the scientific and 
technology community where we can actually offload vetting from 
the DIU, which is actually a group of approximately 5 to 10 PMs 
that all the drones in the entire country to give you guys 
stabilized system for acquisition. If not currently, we're not 
going to have a usable system, and a lot of these higher-end 
regulation arguments to manufacturers like myself are like 
arguing about highways before we have cars. I mean, really we 
need to focus on visual line-of-sight and small platforms that 
we have immediately that we need to scale up to counter the CCP 
policy that is going after our capabilities. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Miller. Thank you for that answer. And I just want to 
underscore the seriousness of where we are and where we're 
lacking, how far behind.
    My next question is for both Dr. Jacob and Dr. P.K. What 
research is being done to assess training needs and future 
workforce development to support future advanced air mobility 
operations?
    Dr. Jacob. I'll take this short. It'd be brief. Thank you 
again, Congressman Miller, for your question. Yes, we're really 
focused on the training side in terms of being able to provide 
the capabilities through, for example, the Counter UAS Center 
of Excellence for--to train soldiers and warfighters to be able 
to evaluate not only how to use systems to detect, identify, 
and defeat UAS, but also the UAS themselves. This is one area 
where the technology is changing so rapidly, it becomes very 
difficult for Federal agencies to be able to keep up with the 
technology. And obviously, that's one area where universities 
excel at and are able to rapidly turn that around.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, thank you, Congressman, for that 
important question that's focused on the workforce and the 
needs of the advanced air mobility industry. Practically every 
advanced air mobility industry member is right now hiring. And 
we have a number of initiatives inside NASA that basically 
allow students, as well as faculty members, to grow the 
curriculum and train the next-generation workforce. The first 
example is Minority University Research and Education Program 
grants. We have--at the moment, we have at least six grants 
focused on U.S. manufacturing and supply chain, your prior 
question in this area.
    Second example is University Leadership Initiative where we 
provide grants through faculty members and student 
competition--and allow student competitions and participation 
from students to push technology frontier forward. So one other 
example is the weather.
    Third is the NASA Community of Aerospace Scholars Program. 
This is working with community colleges to bring them ideas and 
nurture them into the aerospace trade. And, as I mentioned 
also, we have a strong internship program that allows a lot of 
students from all over the United States to be part of the 
internships at all NASA centers. And it's really a joy to work 
with their interns and mentor them.
    Mr. Miller. OK. Doing a wonderful thing. Dr. P.K., in your 
testimony, you also discussed how NASA leverages several 
programs, including the Small Business Innovative Research 
program, University Leadership Initiative, and Minority 
University Research, what you just mentioned, education program 
toward grants to advance unmanned aircraft systems and advanced 
air mobility capabilities. Could you provide us with an example 
of how NASA's grant programs have enabled innovation in this 
space? And I believe you already just touched on that to some 
extent, so.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, and I happy to reiterate that. I mean, 
for the minority university research grants, we are focused on 
building supply chain, understanding new curriculum for supply 
chain, and bringing businesses, entrepreneurs to actually start 
supply chain with manufacturing in different parts of the 
country, including opportunities for students to do internships 
and jobs in this marketplace. So that's one example.
    Under University Leadership Initiative, we are working with 
faculty members, such as Jamey here, on a number of topics, but 
one of them is weather and figuring out the needs of the 
weather that are required to support the safe advance air 
mobility operations.
    Another one related to the University Leadership Initiative 
is building concept to operations to enable these vehicles and 
their operations in different parts of the community.
    Mr. Miller. Thank you, Doctor. And I just want to thank all 
the witnesses, the Chairman and the Ranking Member, and I yield 
back. Thank you all.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much.
    And I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. 
Casten.
    Mr. Casten. Thank you. I'm tempted to lead off with a 
rousing chorus of ``Happy Birthday'' just to be different from 
everybody else. In the interest of all involved, I will keep my 
singing to myself. You're welcome.
    So thanks so much for this panel. I find myself sitting 
here thinking of my--my dad has this--one of his sayings is 
that if you found someone's strength, you found their weakness. 
The strength of drones is that they're unmanned, they can take 
off and land anywhere, they can carry a payload, the--they can 
fly in unregulated airspace, and I have, of course, also just 
described their weaknesses depending on what that payload is 
and where you'd like to travel. As--I realize I'm speaking the 
obvious.
    I guess I'd like to start, Dr. Kopardekar, with a 
philosophical question for you. I know we're considering 
various legislation and I'm not asking you to opine on 
legislation. But every new transportation technology that's 
ever come out has had some balance of device-level regulation 
and public-space-level regulation, you know, flight paths, 
shipping lanes, the GPS chips that prevent your electric 
scooter from getting onto the Capitol grounds, right? You know, 
we can think through all this. As you think about a world that 
doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater but, you know, 
plays to the strengths of drones and, you know, while 
recognizing the vulnerabilities, philosophically, how do you 
think we should be thinking about that balance? And I ask the 
question philosophically because that also spans a lot of 
Committees of jurisdiction in Congress. But is there anything 
unique about drones, or is the approach we've taken to the sort 
of ad hoc basis that we've done for other technologies the 
right way to think about drones as well?
    Dr. Kopardekar. I think that's a very insightful question, 
and thank you for asking that question. If I may offer an 
example from the NASA experience itself. So last year, about 
this time, there were 58--all 50 incursions on NASA Kennedy 
Space Center near the launch pad. A few months ago, DOD found 
about over 200 incursions of unwanted drones over Kennedy Space 
Center. And what that does is it actually jeopardizes the 
safety of the launch systems and the people and the assets that 
we have and the schedule integrity. So it's really important 
that we have balance of basically push forward as well as the 
right type of legislative authorities. So as a result, we are 
requesting--NASA is requesting regulatory authority for detect 
and track these drone operators that are operating and should 
not be operating on NASA properties. So we have seen similar 
things happen at Johnson and Stennis and a few other centers. 
So it's really a balance of push forward and at the same time 
making sure that it doesn't go into the bad hands or the bad 
actors are not able to make damage.
    Mr. Casten. So I'd love to open up, Dr. Jacob or Ms. 
Ellman, if you have different thoughts on this, we'd love to 
hear it as well. And if you could layer on the international 
component of this. You know, Ms. Tenney talked about drones 
moving, you know, contraband across borders. What we can 
regulate in our own airspace is going to be different, but you 
know, the devices can move. How would you suggest we think 
about that philosophical tradeoff between device-level and 
public-space level?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. No. And I really appreciate this 
question. As the Chair noted, I previously worked in the 
Federal Government. I still remember the first meeting that we 
had at the White House where we talked about how--what does it 
mean to integrate UAS into the national airspace? Drones can be 
used for so much good. They can also be used for harm, as you 
know.
    And I think the key here is how to--like you ask--you're 
asking the right question. How do we enable the good about this 
technology while preventing the bad? And there are a few 
different aspects to preventing the bad, right? The first is 
situational awareness in the airspace. How do we know who is 
flying out there? And that's where remote identification comes 
in. And----
    Mr. Casten. I'm sorry, and when you know who is flying, is 
that identify the device or the pilot?
    Ms. Ellman. It's essentially a digital drone license plate. 
So as--it's a digital drone license plate, so you would be able 
to identify the device by a license plate number, and then if 
it is--lets--unauthorized flying, for example, over a stadium, 
you'd be able to--law enforcement would be able to get access 
to who is the operator.
    Mr. Casten. So I can get back and see who was actually 
flying it at that time?
    Ms. Ellman. Exactly.
    Mr. Casten. OK.
    Ms. Ellman. So it provides a tool to law enforcement to 
actually enforce the laws and rules that are out there. But 
that's just the first step, right? The second step is what do 
you actually do if they're--if you're in a situation where, you 
know, a drone is being flown, rogue drone flying where it's not 
supposed to be? You can't--right now, under the current laws, 
you're not actually allowed to do anything about it. There's no 
mitigation authority. And that's where--you know, we see 
innovation and security as two sides of the same coin, so we 
think there needs to be commonsense steps forward from--to 
enable companies that are developing this technology, both to 
test that technology here in the United States, as well as to 
work with other agencies--right now, it's--only four Federal 
agencies have access to this technology, and that needs to 
change for our national security.
    Mr. Casten. I'm out of time. I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. Now I'd like to recognize the 
gentleman from New York, by way of Texas, Mr. Williams.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The--I'd like to welcome our guests as well. And I'm sorry 
that--I think Major McGarvey and his crew have left. I would 
offer them greetings from their colleagues from the 174th 
Attack Wing that is headquartered in Syracuse, New York. We're 
very proud to have them there.
    There's a lot going on with drones in New York's 22d 
District, which I know you're aware, so forgive me for a few 
statements here. But we have one of the most significant drone 
test sites in the world, run by NUAIR, a 50-mile corridor and 
test corridor that connect Rome all the way to Syracuse 
Airport, as well as, you know, in other areas. The Syracuse 
Airport is also the only FAA-licensed airport that allows un-
escorted, unmanned takeoff and landings, which is critical for 
testing of drones. So we invite all participants to join with 
us in this exciting innovation, visit, invest, grow with this 
amazing community in beautiful central New York.
    Mr. Casey, just for a moment, my grandfather worked on B-
24s and B-29s at Tinker Air Force Base and spoke of it, you 
know, with great affection his whole life, so Tinker is part of 
our family story.
    And, Dr. P.K., just one more biographical note. Several 
years ago, I was privileged to briefly--to brief your ATM-X 
team at NASA Ames. And they were investigating next-generation 
technologies that would be essential to manage airspace when 
you have a 3-orders-of-magnitude increase in the number of 
aircraft, right, 1,000 times increase. How do you deconflict 
that? We can't do that with current technologies. And it was a 
privilege to talk to the NASA team there. I look forward to 
partnering with you on that.
    But I just have a couple of questions. Mr. Casey, there are 
some domestic concerns about incorporating components--we've 
heard about that today--from China, into American drones. To 
the extent that you've not covered that, what are some thoughts 
about how we can do that? Is this--you know, is it rulemaking? 
Is it a demand signal, you know, so that we get outside 
investments? You know, are they asking for subsidies? What's 
the real solution there?
    Mr. Casey. The real solution honestly lies in acquisition. 
It--really to me from a manufacturer's point of view, this has 
nothing with regulating niche categories of application. We 
need to make a domestic capability very quickly. To do so, the 
government needs to become a buyer of drones. To do that, the 
government needs to actually accelerate NDAA section 848 
compliance and actually maybe even support funding to actually 
go after that for a lot more small business. It's important to 
note that most of the actual U.S. community is entirely small 
business, as in less than 500 employees in the SBIR programs--
excuse me, SBIR programs are really impactful for us.
    And in general, we need to actually make these components 
at home, and we don't need to make them in Europe. We don't 
need to make them in not just non-China countries but we also 
need to loop in funding from the CHIPS Act to help support this 
effort as well. Because really, we're having an issue in the 
critical components of semiconductors and chips as well and the 
software and the actual command-and-control algorithms that we 
run being China origin as well.
    Mr. Williams. Great. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate 
that detail. I think that's very helpful.
    Mr. Jacob, could you comment about how the FAA currently 
uses the data collected by the FAA at these UAS test sites like 
in my district? Is there anything the Federal Government, you 
know, can leverage from these test site data for our defense 
priorities? I love dual-use technologies. So for counter UAS or 
advanced air mobility, are we able to repurpose, you know, this 
data of what we're learning to meet our national defense needs?
    Dr. Jacob. Yes, certainly. Thank you, Congressman Williams. 
That's an excellent question.
    First off, NUAIR is really doing great work. They've been 
really crucial in terms of pushing the boundaries of what we've 
been able to do and integrating United States into the 
airspace.
    In terms of the data that the FAA is acquiring from these 
test programs--and it's not just these programs themselves but 
all UAS that are operating within the national airspace as part 
of the certification process, getting approvals to fly in the 
airspace. We're required to port back--report back how those 
vehicles are actually operating. And it really comes down to 
providing safety data from the use cases. How well are those 
vehicles working? Where are the failures at? Really, what's 
breaking in the system so that the FAA can then use that data 
to determine how best to safely integrate that--those aircraft 
in the national airspace.
    For the DOD side, that data is just as useful in terms of 
determining how those aircraft then can be integrated not only 
to the day-to-day operations of the DOD but also then how to 
utilize counter UAS systems to be able to evaluate them.
    And some of this--this goes back to something that Mr. 
Casey mentioned in terms of getting approvals for Blue or 
approved U.S. manufactured aircraft to be able to utilize those 
more into the airspace, but also that approval process so that 
way we can streamline that and have States such as Oklahoma, 
which are working on their own Blue UAS approval program to be 
able to more rapidly approve aircraft for flight in the United 
States.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you for your detailed answers. That's 
helpful. Come fly with us in central New York. Thank you. I 
yield back, sir.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. And now I'd like to call on 
the gentlewoman from Ohio, Ms. Sykes.
    Mrs. Sykes. Thank you very much to the Chair and Ranking 
Member for this meeting. And, Chair, happy birthday, but next 
time, get some cake.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
    Mrs. Sykes. Thank you. As my colleagues and I discussed 
last hearing, we all know Ohio is the birthplace of aviation, 
and Ohio is the Nation's largest industry supplier in the Air 
Force industry. Ohio is one of the first States to release a 
market impact study for the Urban Regional Air Mobility 
Program, and we are releasing the Nation's first advanced air 
mobility framework.
    One of the things that is incredibly exciting about the 
State that I'm from, particularly in northeast Ohio in Ohio 13, 
is that we're seeing an opportunity to be leaders again. And I 
heard Ms. Ellman talk about the first generation of aerospace 
and flight in aviation, and we have an opportunity--it's the 
second time around if we use our opportunities appropriately.
    And so to that end, one of the things we hear from every 
industry, almost every company that I'm talking to across the 
district, is an issue with workforce. And I'm incredibly proud 
of my alma mater, Kent State University, that this month just 
instituted an unmanned aircraft systems flight management--or 
major, excuse me, to help that workforce. And, Dr. P.K., I 
heard you talk about this as well because there are a lot of 
opportunities from NASA. And, you know, NASA Glenn is a 
highlight in our area.
    One of the things about this job that I love the most is 
the information that I get and how I can help my constituents. 
But the thing that's most frustrating is how do we get that 
information to our constituents so they can use it? And you 
talked about your internships, and I'm talking about college-
level degree programs, but how do we get the workforce 
interested before they even step into high school so that their 
pathways can get them into the air or in a remote facility 
working through this process? So could you talk a little bit 
more about those early interventions so we can get those 
workforce pipeline issues sorted out?
    Dr. Kopardekar. Very astute observation, Mrs. Sykes, and I 
really appreciate that. And thank you for the all the great 
work that happens at NASA Glenn. You know, they are really the 
champions of propulsion, and they've taken a lot of interest in 
advanced air mobility, including the Department of 
Transportation in Ohio that's setting up, as you mentioned, 
advanced air mobility framework.
    And by the way, my daughter also goes to Case Western 
University, so I have a personal connection there.
    But your question is very valid. You know, how do we entice 
students at early stage into STEM workforce? And we have 
several examples and several programs that--at NASA that 
basically go to different colleges and high schools and middle 
schools and even some elementary schools. I know I used to 
personally go to many schools and give talks and inspire 
students to come join and think about space and aeronautics as 
future career options and get them excited. I will be more than 
happy to take the question back and give you a list of 
different programs we have that will allow you to share that 
information.
    Mrs. Sykes. Thank you so much for that question. And so the 
second thing we hear a lot about no matter where we are after 
workforce is typically regulation and regulatory frameworks. 
And the FlyOhio, program specifically identifies that the lack 
of Federal Government and the--or the Federal Government 
restrictions, I should say, on flight to operate low altitude 
air traffic is one of the things that's hindering us. And, Ms. 
Ellman, I know you talked about this as an industry leader. 
Could you dive into a little bit deeper, more specifically, 
what it is that you would like to see, what does the industry 
need to see? And I'm saying this particularly for the economic 
benefit of those of us in Ohio. This is a billion-dollar 
industry that we're not tapping into. What could we do to 
harness that, get that money to northeast Ohio, particularly 
Ohio's 13th Congressional District?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you so much for that 
question, Congresswoman Sykes. It's a critical question for 
industry. It's also a critical question for States and 
localities like Ohio. You guys are doing great work developing 
a corridor. There's--I hear all the time from our member 
companies that are looking to do business in Ohio, so we really 
appreciate your leadership as well.
    From--what we all collectively need is to move the policy 
boundaries forward. The technology has moved quickly forward. 
The policies have lagged behind, and we're still waiting for 
rulemakings, broad rulemakings that would make it--that would 
relieve the undue burden that's on these regulatory processes 
in order to be able to scale businesses here in the United 
States, including in Ohio. And so, you know, we appreciate the 
opportunity to be here today.
    We also--the regulations also need to move forward even to 
enable advanced R&D. So, you know, this is a critically 
important issue for all of us, and I'm really--you know, we'd 
be very happy to work with you in your office on how we can 
bring these benefits to the State of Ohio and across the 
country.
    Mrs. Sykes. Thank you, Chair, and I yield back my time.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. I'd like to recognize the gentleman 
from Alabama, Mr. Strong.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being here today. Happy birthday, Mr. Chairman.
    I have the honor of representing a district on the cutting 
edge of aerospace and UAS innovation, Huntsville, Alabama. 
Alabama's 5th District holds a large contingent of key players 
in this space spanning DOD, DOJ, DHS, NASA, and hosting a 
thriving ecosystem of universities and contractors. I'm proud 
of the continued work and role our entire community plays in 
the research and development, detection, and mitigation of the 
evolving UAS threats from our adversaries.
    North Alabama is a prime example of the success that is 
possible when you put everyone in the same room to come up with 
solutions to these issues facing our country. In our case, when 
you get everyone together in the same region with some of the 
brightest minds in the country, it's been very beneficial. 
Nowhere else can you find a community more dedicated and well-
positioned to address these problems head-on. Time and again, 
we prove the value of a whole-of-government approach to these 
threats and, even more so, the value of interagency 
partnerships and relationships.
    Ms. Ellman, you're doing my job for me. I was glad to see 
in your testimony you highlighted the important work of the 
universities in my district. The University of Alabama in 
Huntsville is currently participating in various UAS-related 
projects. They continue to excel in this field and deliver 
valuable support and expertise to partners.
    I know you mentioned that we have only scratched the 
surface of the capabilities and applications of UAS technology. 
Can you talk more about the importance of universities in the 
future of UAS?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you, Congressman, for that 
question. And thank you as well for the great work that is 
being done across the State of Alabama, including University of 
Alabama, Huntsville, for the great work that is being done and 
the research and development that your State is doing to 
advance this industry. And absolutely, universities are a key 
partner to industry. We greatly appreciate our relationship, 
including with Jamey and his team, you know, as well as the 
Federal agencies and others, but universities are doing great 
work and trying to do more work, research and development.
    Unfortunately, they are limited by the regulatory 
frameworks just like industry is. And that's where we really 
need to take a risk-appropriate approach. How can we enable 
these operations, including for research and development in a 
way that allows us to maintain our global leadership and--in 
advanced aviation, and so we would be happy to work with you. 
We have lots of ideas in that respect. I've mentioned one issue 
around public aircraft operations, but there are others as 
well, and I'd be happy to work with you in your office on this 
important topic.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you. Specifically, what is needed to 
better leverage and benefit the efforts of UAH and other 
institutions?
    Ms. Ellman. Well, one of the challenges is, as a company, 
if I want to work with you in order to do research and 
development on, let's say, a vehicle that I don't even have the 
ability to do on my own private property, these operations, I 
currently--under the current rules I'm not allowed to actually 
use that data or have access to that data or use those for 
certification processes. So working together so that we're able 
to eventually commercialize, which is the purpose of research 
and development, to commercialize these technologies is a 
where--is an area that I think we could work together on.
    Mr. Strong. That's great information.
    Dr. Jacob, can you talk about the importance of community 
and agency partnerships in the work that you do?
    Dr. Jacob. Oh, certainly. Thank you, Congressman Strong, 
and I'd like to say really appreciate all my visits to 
Huntsville. We work very closely with Redstone Arsenal through 
the Counter UAS Center of Excellence and particularly CC-DEVCOM 
(Combat Capabilities Development Command) and AvMC (Aviation & 
Missile Center), so it's fantastic to be able to come out and 
visit your district.
    As Lisa had mentioned, you know, the university impact is 
really limited by access to the airspace and to be able to test 
the systems. And we've certainly found that not only in terms 
of what we're evaluating on the counter UAS side, but then how 
we take this out to the community. When we engage not only the 
community, that's where we start to educate the public about 
how UAS can be used for both good and for ill, how they're 
going to be integrated in the airspace. And we start to be able 
to spark those ideas from community members about not only 
acceptance of the technology, but also entrepreneurial ideas 
about how they can use the systems to be able to startup new 
businesses or engage with their community.
    But furthermore, that's a fantastic way to develop 
workforce for the future by exciting kids in the K through 12 
arena about the possibility of drone technology. When you 
combine robots with aircraft, you just really spark 
imaginations.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Dr. Jacob. I yield back, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Babin. Sorry, thank you very much. And now the 
gentlewoman from Colorado, Ms. Caraveo.
    Ms. Caraveo. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I join everybody in 
wishing you a very happy birthday.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you.
    Ms. Caraveo. And thank you to Chair Lucas and Ranking 
Member Lofgren for putting this together and to the witnesses 
for taking the time to speak to us today.
    I am a physician and so view a lot of legislation through 
what this is going to do through the world of medicine. There 
are--with every new technology is a way to change the way that 
medicine and emergency services in particular are delivered. 
And sometimes the rollout is slower than we would like. I 
think, in particular, with the internet and how long it took 
for that power to really be harnessed in terms of telemedicine, 
it wasn't really until the COVID-19 pandemic that we really 
took full advantage of it. And it has really revolutionized the 
way that patients seek medical attention.
    And so I'm wondering, with this technology around unmanned 
air systems and drones, how you think that these may be applied 
to emergency services in particular. Coming from a State like 
Colorado, I think in in terms of wildfire response that we have 
discussed earlier during the hearing, and in particular, the 
access to places that are remote or not accessible because of 
emergencies, and then overall to the delivery of medicine and 
emergency response in general. And that goes to any of you who 
think that--who have something to add.
    Dr. Jacob. Yes, but if you don't mind, Congresswoman, I'll 
just jump in real quick and provide some examples because this 
has been one area that we've been actively participating in 
with small businesses to be able to evaluate technology, to be 
able to deliver emergency medical supplies to first responders 
in the field, both firefighters, emergency medical technicians 
such as blood bags for a car accident. And this is one area 
where UAS will be able to find really rapid responses that we 
don't currently have.
    As an example, you know, going back to your comment 
regarding COVID-19, we actually were partnering with the 
Choctaw Nation to evaluate the implementation of medical 
delivery and other emergency aid delivery during the pandemic 
that were unable to get approval for that from the--for the 
test processes from the FAA. So the Choctaw Nation was 
exploring that as part of the BEYOND program. And that just 
provides an example where we do think there are opportunities 
that are currently being missed.
    Ms. Ellman. Sure, and I'll just add to that. First of all, 
the medical use case is a fantastic use case. And thank you for 
your work as a physician, obviously, incredibly important what 
you're doing. And there are companies that are trying to fill 
that void. There are pharmacy deserts. There's so many 
different use cases in this business. And it's already 
happening at scale around the world. So Zipline is already 
delivering vaccines, for example, at scale, nationally in 
Rwanda and elsewhere and other countries around the world. Wing 
is delivering--you know, working to deliver prescriptions and 
other critical supplies, so is--you know, Matternet is 
delivering blood samples in Zurich. So there are lots of 
companies out there that are trying to do this work, again, you 
know, and there's so many different--it helps vulnerable 
populations in remote areas, like you mentioned, the pharmacy 
deserts. So there's so many different applications and so many 
different use cases here. The key is really unlocking this 
potential with the regulations.
    Ms. Caraveo. And any further comments on barriers and 
particular challenges? I know that we've talked about research 
and the permitting process, for lack of a better word. Anything 
in particular to the delivery of medical services that we 
should be thinking about when we approach legislation?
    Mr. Casey. Sure, Congresswoman. So to be perfectly clear 
with the Blue compliance, if you want to be a federally 
deployed system, if this payload has a single logic level chip, 
that payload can be subject to country-of-origin restriction. 
And right now, again, because the government's not really 
acquiring systems, there's not an emphasis on 
commercialization. The emphasis is on research--excuse me--
without commercialization. But ultimately, right now at this 
point in time for these necessary services, we need to 
commercialize products, to do so we need the acquisition 
support.
    Ms. Caraveo. Thank you. Ms. Ellman, go ahead.
    Ms. Ellman. Yes, I was just going to say for 
commercialization of this technology, another area just to be 
aware of is hazardous materials. So sometimes if you're 
carrying, for example, a vaccine sample that could be 
considered hazmat under the rules, that's an area that hasn't 
really caught up to the technology, so we'd be happy to work 
with you and your office on that important topic.
    Ms. Caraveo. Be very interested. Thank you all so much. I 
yield back my time.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. And now the gentlewoman from 
Pennsylvania, Ms. Lee, thank you.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And happy birthday, of 
course.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Lee. As many are aware, and one of the things that, you 
know, I'm most concerned about is, you know, how marginalized 
communities--they face a range of challenges, including limited 
access to resources, restricted mobility, and reduced 
opportunities for economic and social advancement. So while 
unmanned aircraft systems or drones are often associated with 
use in war, you know, they have the potential to revolutionize 
the way we approach the challenges by providing an innovative 
way to provide support to those who need it most.
    Drones offer opportunity, as we've learned and as we've 
heard, to deliver medical supplies like vaccines to remote and 
underserved communities or providing lifelines to those who 
might otherwise be unable to access these critical resources. I 
think about what access to drones could have meant in relief 
efforts such as catastrophes like Katrina and others were 
providing a rapid and efficient way to assess damage and 
deliver aid to affected communities, as well as to provide 
proactive preparedness warnings in the event of extreme weather 
occurrences.
    But while unmanned aircraft systems have the potential to 
help bridge the gaps between marginalized groups and the rest 
of our society, we also have to be mindful of the potential 
risks and challenges associated with their use. So we must 
ensure that drones are used in a safe, responsible, and ethical 
manner, and that they don't exacerbate existing inequities, 
or--excuse me--existing inequities or create new ones.
    With that said, my first question is to Ms. Ellman. What 
will U.S. leadership in drones technology look like not solely 
in terms of market share, but in reducing socioeconomic 
disparities in our country and improving overall standard of 
living?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Thank you, Congresswoman, for that 
very important question. This technology can promote equity and 
can promote--you know, you mentioned medical delivery, pharmacy 
deserts, bringing--whether it's rural areas, poor areas that 
don't have--otherwise have access to medicine, or whether it's 
the inner city, and we're trying to make infrastructure 
inspections more efficient, for example, make the best use of 
taxpayer dollars. This industry has the potential to really 
boost our efforts to promoting equity. And so that's something 
that this industry is really committed to, and we'd be happy to 
work with your office to continue to find areas that this 
industry can be supportive.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you. And I'm happy when you mentioned, you 
know, infrastructure checks. You know, obviously, I come from 
Pittsburgh where we had a bridge collapse. And one of the key 
concerns is how are we, you know, checking them, how are we 
updating them. And one of the proposals from someone in our 
district was talking about, you know, equitable access to that 
and using drone technology to lead that. So I'm certain that 
that one constituent would be really interested in this 
research, in this technology as it emerges.
    Dr. Kopardekar, how is research and development creating 
new opportunities and avenues for domestic manufacturers and 
suppliers to become full participants in expanding aviation 
value chain--or in this expanding aviation value chain? Excuse 
me.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, thank you for that great question. I 
think it's really important to ensure that we have a strong 
supply chain of--for aerospace and defense to maintain the U.S. 
competitiveness, as well as maintain the jobs in the 
manufacturing sector in the United States.
    So one of the things that we are doing is working with 
Department of Defense, Agility Prime initiative, and NASA. We 
are collaborating together and informing the advanced air 
mobility industry members, as well as small and medium sized 
enterprises as to where the jobs are, where the manufacturing 
capabilities needed to support the United States and advance 
air mobility technologies and manufacturing. So understanding 
the needs of the new growing entrants, as well as opportunities 
for domestic manufacturing sector to grow is very important. 
And we have been successful in getting some new entrants, new 
companies to match with some of the advanced air mobility 
organizations.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you. And thank you so much to the panel for 
your time and for the information you've shared today. I yield 
back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much. And the 
gentleman from California, Mr. Obernolte.
    Mr. Obernolte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Happy birthday. I 
want to thank Chairman Lucas and the Committee staff for 
holding this hearing on a really important topic for me. I'm 
the Chairman of the Advanced Air Mobility Caucus here in 
Congress, and we have been working to try and raise awareness 
of the benefits that advanced air mobility and unmanned aerial 
systems can bring to Americans but also some of the 
difficulties and the challenges that lie ahead in both of those 
sectors of our aviation ecosystem.
    So, you know, I think I share the opinion with a lot of 
Members of Congress that advanced air mobility is on the cusp 
of delivering transformational generation of expansion and 
mobility in our airspace system. It's going to bring a whole 
host of benefits to American society, and I think it's going to 
catalyze not only mobility, but also access to resources for 
Americans in ways that haven't been done before.
    But before us lies this challenge of, you know, first 
adopting the certification standards for a AAS (Advanced 
Aircraft Systems) aircraft and then integrating them into the 
National Airspace System. And therein lies the difficulty. 
We're kind of grappling with the certification problem now, but 
next, you know, right on its heels will be this problem of 
integration. And we've just been through this with UAS.
    And, Ms. Ellman, I was interested when I heard your 
testimony about the challenges that we went through. I mean, 
Congress was exactly here 11 years ago. In 2012, Congress 
passed a legislative mandate that directed the FAA to get going 
with respect to the integration of UAS into the airspace 
system. And yet, you know, here we are still 11 years later 
grappling with these same issues.
    And unfortunately, I think this exposes, you know, two 
things. First of all, the fact that quite often, the 
bureaucratic default stance, when confronted with uncertainty, 
is immobility. And second, the role that Congress has to play 
in helping the FAA--and it's not an adversarial relationship--
but helping the FAA try and get itself in gear and get past 
some of these hurdles, you know, kind of grapple with this 
tradeoff between uncertainty and the need to protect public 
safety.
    So, Ms. Ellman, you'd highlighted this, and I'm interested 
in your point of view on integration for AAS. Having gone 
through this with UAS, what are the lessons learned, and how do 
we avoid making some of those same mistakes?
    Ms. Ellman. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Congressman, for 
that very important question. And thank you for your leadership 
of the AAM Caucus here in Congress. I think that's incredibly 
important work and look forward to working with you in that 
capacity.
    Absolutely, there's--you know, I think of AAM and UAS on a 
spectrum of advanced aviation. There are certain things that 
they have in common, there are certain things that are 
different, but the reality is, there's a lot of things that are 
complementary in terms of they are new entrants into the 
airspace, in low altitude airspace and trying to figure out 
what the technology piece and the policy piece and how it all 
fits together.
    There are certainly many lessons learned from the UAS space 
that the AAM community can kind of take heed of. One, I was 
encouraged to see this Federal Government working group that's 
been established with the legislation that Congress passed, the 
AAM Leadership and Coordination Act that is a positive step 
forward. I'm pleased to see that it has been launched and that 
the Federal Government is working because it's very important 
to have a holistic whole-of-government approach. As you said, 
it's not an adversarial relationship with any government 
agency. There are very good people trying to fit a square peg 
into a round hole. They can't--it's not necessarily their 
fault. The challenges are systemic anytime you introduce a new 
technology into an existing regulatory environment.
    I will mention one thing in particular that challenged the 
UAS industry that the AAM industry is kind of keeping its eye 
on which is that security issues were not considered early on 
in the UAS space. And that ended up pushing back expanded UAS 
operations several years as the national security agencies then 
came forward and said, wait, we're a stakeholder, too; you need 
to consider our concerns. So that's part of why I look at this 
interagency working group, and it's a very positive step 
forward. And we need the national security agencies to 
participate and be active participants in not only identifying 
challenges, but also providing solutions.
    Mr. Obernolte. Well, great, thank you. I agree with you.
    Dr. Kopardekar, if I could ask because I know you've got 
some expertise in this subject. So now we're considering AAM 
and UAS kind of in the same sentence because we fail to get 
there with UAS. We're still grappling with the same problem. 
Does tackling this challenge with both of them put together 
either simplify it or does it make it more difficult?
    Dr. Kopardekar. First of all, Congressman, thank you for 
your leadership of Advanced Air Mobility Caucus and really 
appreciate Armstrong--I have fond memories of visiting 
Armstrong, great friends there as well. We are working together 
with them on the wildfire activity as well.
    Mr. Obernolte. Right. I'm aware.
    Dr. Kopardekar. Yes, so thank you for that. But yes, in 
terms of combining things and not combining, there are a couple 
of things that we can probably combine, for example, 
interoperability and operations inside airspace. I think 
everybody has to coexist in the same airspace at the same time, 
so there are a few things related to advance air mobility that 
are similar to drones, particularly larger drones, using 
basically the tenets of unmanned aircraft system traffic 
management, which are digital systems, cooperative nature, 
sharing the intent, and using third-party services to get 
faster, basically, acceleration of their introduction. So these 
things are common between the United States and advanced air 
mobility.
    What's not common is advanced air mobility has a series of 
basically waves, if you will. Some of them are in the beginning 
are going to use piloted operations under clear visibility, VMC 
(visual meteorological conditions) conditions, VFR (visual 
flight rules) kind of setups, whereas the drones, the smaller 
drones, they don't have a pilot onboard, obviously, so you had 
to connect with the remote operators or completely autonomous 
systems, so it's going to be all digital. So some things are 
going to be easy for advanced air mobility in the first wave, 
but as they start to push toward highly autonomous advanced air 
mobility type of aircraft, then those things will be very 
similar. How do we push forward? So there are some things 
similar, some things dissimilar, but drones have a different 
tolerance for weather and wind and for--wind, whereas advanced 
air mobility may have a higher wing loading, and so they will 
be able to tolerate wind. So there are some interesting 
subtleties, but by and large, the few things, access to 
airspace, interoperability in the airspace is common.
    Mr. Obernolte. I see we're out of time, but I want to thank 
all of you for not only your service here on the panel but also 
the work that you're doing in helping us solve these issues and 
remain optimistic that we could work together toward a common 
solution here.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. And absolutely agree with everything 
you just said.
    I want to thank the witnesses for their very valuable 
testimony and the Members for your good--your great questions. 
The record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments 
and written questions from Members. And we know what we have to 
do to advance this new technology so it really has been stuck 
in a rut for far too long.
    So with that, this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:18 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]







                               Appendix I


                               ----------                              

                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions








                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions
Responses by Dr. Jamey Jacob

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


Responses by Dr. Parimal Kopardekar

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


Responses by Ms. Lisa Ellman

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


Responses by Mr. Sean Casey

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 








                              Appendix II


                              ----------                              

                   Additional Material for the Record






             Letter submitted by Representative Frank Lucas

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


             Letter submitted by Representative Zoe Lofgren

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


                                 [all]