[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



 


                              


 
 HELP WANTED: EXPLORING HOW ALTERNATIVE PATHS TO STUDENT DEBT CAN HELP 
                      TO STRENGTHEN SMALL BUSINESS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION,
              ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                             APRIL 26, 2023

                               __________

          [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                   
                               

            Small Business Committee Document Number 118-010
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
                                
                                
                              ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
   51-877          WASHINGTON : 2023                     
                                
                                
             
             
             
                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                    ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                      BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                         MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                          TRACEY MANN, Kansas
                           JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                        MARC MOLINARO, New York
                         MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                           ELI CRANE, Arizona
                          AARON BEAN, Florida
                           WESLEY HUNT, Texas
                         NICK LALOTA, New York
               NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                          JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                         KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                        DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                          GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
                       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                  MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
                       HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                        SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
                          JUDY CHU, California
                         SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                      CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire

                  Ben Johnson, Majority Staff Director
                 Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director
                 
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Marc Molinaro...............................................     1
Hon. Morgan McGarvey.............................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Patrice Lee Onwuka, Director, Center for Economic 
  Opportunity, Independent Women's Forum, Winchester, VA.........     7
Mrs. Meloni Raney, President and Chief Executive Officer, TEXO, 
  The Construction Association, Dallas, TX.......................     9
Mr. Bruno Schickel, President, Schickel Construction, Dryden, NY.    11
Mr. Eric Elzy, Assistant Business Manager, United Association of 
  Plumbers and Pipefitters, Louisville, KY.......................    12

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Mrs. Meloni Raney, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
      TEXO, The Construction Association, Dallas, TX.............    23
    Ms. Patrice Lee Onwuka, Director, Center for Economic 
      Opportunity, Independent Women's Forum, Winchester, VA.....    29
    Mr. Bruno Schickel, President, Schickel Construction, Dryden, 
      NY.........................................................    38
    Mr. Eric Elzy, Assistant Business Manager, United Association 
      of Plumbers and Pipefitters, Louisville, KY................    43
Questions for the Record:
    None.
Answers for the Record:
    None.
Additional Material for the Record:
    None.


 HELP WANTED: EXPLORING HOW ALTERNATIVE PATHS TO STUDENT DEBT CAN HELP 
                      TO STRENGTHEN SMALL BUSINESS

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 26, 2023

              House of Representatives,    
               Committee on Small Business,
                        Subcommittee on Innovation,
               Entrepreneurship, and Workforce Development,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., in 
Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Marcus J. 
Molinaro [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Williams, Ellzey, Molinaro, 
McGarvey, and Pappas.
    [Prayer.]
    Mr. WILLIAMS. All rise please for opening prayer. Heavenly 
Father, God of all people, thank You for the opportunity today 
to speak what we believe and ask great questions and help this 
great country. We are in a position this week alone to do great 
things for not only our country, our States we come from, but 
the world. Be with us as we go forward. In Your name we pray, 
Amen.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Join us in the pledge.
    ALL. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty small and justice 
for all.
    Chairman MOLINARO. I wanted to do that for a while. Good 
morning, everyone. I would like to call the Committee on Small 
Business to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized 
to declare a recess of the Committee at any time. The Committee 
is here today to hear testimony about alternatives paths to 
student debt, specifically surrounding career and technical 
education, and how it can strengthen small businesses. I thank 
you all for being here to testify, and I would like to 
recognize myself for some opening comments.
    First, again, good morning, and thanks for joining us 
today. I want to thank our witnesses for joining today. Your 
time here is extremely appreciated, and I look forward to your 
testimony. I am very glad to have a constituent of mine, Mr. 
Bruno Schickel, the owner of Schickel Construction, as one of 
our witnesses today, joining a good number of others. Mr. 
Schickel, thank you for your time and traveling from Ithaca, 
New York, to Washington, D.C., to share your perspective on the 
various issues that our small business owners currently face.
    Today, the Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, 
and Workforce Development hearing will focus on several 
critical issues that are holding mainstream America back.
    First, there is no denying that small businesses, both in 
my district and, of course, every district across this country, 
are suffering from a workforce shortage crisis. As we travel 
around Upstate New York--and I know my colleagues as they 
travel around their districts, we continue to hear from local 
businesses about how they cannot find enough people to work. 
Despite offering higher wages, cash bonuses, or other 
incentives, they still are unable to attract workers.
    Small businesses have limited resources at their disposal 
to recruit and retain the workforce they need. Every unfilled 
position represents a missed opportunity for small business to 
serve its local community, increase their bottom line, and grow 
their operation. This shortage is often exacerbated in rural 
communities, like the ones I represent.
    This inability to fill jobs not only impacts storefronts on 
main street, but also employers of skilled trade workers. This 
includes our construction workers, plumbers, electricians, and 
so many more. With a shortage of available workers, employers 
are having difficulty finding qualified employees to fill open 
positions due to increased competition for available workers 
and having to offer higher wages to retain them.
    According to U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, of the top 20 
occupations projected to see the biggest change in employment 
over the next 10 years, the majority are in careers that 
require training beyond high school, but less than a 4-year 
degree. This means that millions of individuals who did not 
possess a 4-year degree could have well-paid careers and obtain 
the necessary skills to fill these jobs likely without needing 
to step onto a college campus. This is all happening as the 
cost of a traditional
    4-year education continues to climb, reaching record highs.
    This rise in cost of 4-year degrees have saddled nearly 43 
million Americans with student loan debt equating to over $1.7 
trillion. As a result, we are left to confront a massive 
student debt crisis and massive workforce shortage in skilled 
trades across the country.
    We should be promoting alternative education paths that are 
both more affordable, and oftentimes more efficient than a 
typical 4-year college degree, such as registered 
apprenticeship trade schools and more. In our current economic 
environment, we have to think practically and encourage our 
young people, in particular, to aspire to achieve success.
    As a former county executive in Dutchess County, New York, 
I have had firsthand experience creating training programs and 
seeing the benefits that these programs provide students. Under 
my tenure, we worked with various not-for-profit agencies, 
community centers, and other programs to help promote youth 
workforce development programs and overall worker readiness 
skills. This gave students the skills they needed to go into 
various professions, including skilled labor jobs.
    One great alternative pathway to a 4-year degree is career 
and technical education. In addition to being shorter and less 
expensive than a traditional 4-year degree, CTE represents a 
complete range of career fields across the entire economy and 
is driven by the needs and demands of employers.
    Preparing students with technical skills needed to obtain 
higher paying jobs, in-demand jobs, will prove to be crucial to 
bridging our nation's skills and workforce gap. And as 
policymakers, we must improve our understanding of workforce 
issues so we can prepare the next generation of workers and our 
small businesses that rely on these workers for success.
    I know today's hearing can help shape how Congress can work 
to promote these vital alternate paths to education, and by 
doing so, we will be working to solve our nation's workforce 
shortage crisis, while promoting less expensive, but oftentimes 
more successful educational opportunities.
    I am very excited to have a diverse group of small business 
owners, some of whom have gone through CTE and other training 
programs. Today, our witnesses will have the opportunity to 
share their stories, current economic and workforce challenges, 
and how CTE and apprenticeship programs help them to become the 
business owners they are today. And so, again, I want to thank 
all of you for being here with us, and I look forward to 
today's conversation. And with that, I will yield to my 
distinguished Ranking Member from Kentucky, Mr. McGarvey.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that. I 
echo your words. And thank you for holding this vital hearing 
on alternative educational paths that can develop our nation's 
workforce.
    As you introduced one of your constituents who is here 
today, I would also like to introduce one of my constituents 
here today, Mr. Erik Elzy, who is a plumber and pipefitter with 
Local 502 in the great Louisville, Kentucky. And he and I have 
talked about this a lot over the years. It is an honor to have 
you here to share those insights with the Committee.
    As we all know across this country, whether it is in New 
York, whether it is in Kentucky, our nation is experiencing a 
workforce shortage. Just last February, there were only 5.9 
million unemployed people, and there were 9.9 million job 
openings. It means even if every person unemployed went to 
work, there would be 4 million job openings in this country.
    Small businesses are really and truly feeling this labor 
shortage as much or more than anyone else. Everywhere I go in 
my district and talk to people, and I say what is the number 
one concern? They say it is getting and keeping the right 
people here.
    As a result, I think these workforce development solutions 
are key. They are what we need to help businesses find the 
skilled labor they need, and will prepare Americans for a 
better future. They will do it without requiring individuals to 
make a substantial financial investment towards their 
education. That is why it is so important that we are talking 
about these other ways to get people employed, to get people 
into the skilled trades for good-paying jobs where we know we 
have openings.
    So today, we will explore the workforce development 
programs from the lens of the construction sector, where these 
programs have been extremely successful in teaching people in 
apprenticeship programs and getting people into the trade 
trades and to work.
    It is estimated that in 2023 alone, the construction 
industry will have to recruit 546,000 workers on top of its 
regular pace of hiring, just to keep up with the demand. And, 
as we implement the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act over 
the next decade, that demand for workers is only going to 
continue to grow.
    So whether we are talking about apprenticeships, career and 
technical education, or any other workforce development 
initiative, it is imperative that we look for ways to 
incentivize their use and make them more attractive to new 
demographics of workers.
    Congress' investments in infrastructure will create more 
jobs and reach far beyond the construction sector. So we need 
to figure out ways to extend these programs into areas of our 
economy that have not traditionally been covered by these 
efforts.
    Finally, and most important for this Committee, we need to 
ensure that workforce development programs are accessible to 
small employers because they are the ones who stand to benefit 
most.
    Last Congress, this Committee focused on this topic with a 
series of hearings. Today's hearing and the introduction of two 
bipartisan bills to improve the understanding and utilization 
of vital workforce pipeline programs confirm this remains a 
priority for the new majority.
    I look forward to listening to the testimony of all of our 
witnesses, which will help inform our current and future 
efforts to build a strong pipeline of skilled workers. And I 
look forward to working with my colleagues to build a stronger, 
more robust workforce. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. McGarvey. At this point, 
I would like to recognize the Chairman of the Small Business 
Committee, Mr. Roger Williams from Texas, for his opening 
remarks. Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate it. Good 
morning to all of you. We appreciate you coming here. I, too, 
am a small business owner back in Texas. So we are all talking 
to the choir here as we proceed to do some great things. And I 
want to thank my colleague, Marc Molinaro, for holding today's 
Subcommittee hearing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that.
    And in my district in Texas and across the country, there 
are far too many windows plastered with Help Wanted signs. This 
has been especially challenging for many industries that 
require specialized skills from workers plumbers, electricians, 
and so many more. Our economy does not work without skilled 
workers. And I can tell you we need welders in Texas. So send 
them our way. We need them badly.
    And not only are these vital trades struggling to fill open 
positions, they also can't keep up with replacing retiree 
workers. And for every worker entering the skilled workforce, 
five are leaving. This is simply unsustainable for an economy 
like ours. And there are too many young people who feel like 
they have no other choice but to attend a 4-year college and 
incur tens of thousands of dollars in debt. And the ones that 
don't--in Texas, we have 100,000 kids every year dropping out 
of school in the ninth grade. Imagine that. Because they are 
losing hope. They don't think they can be a doctor, architect, 
or whatever. So we need to make sure that they know there is 
opportunities out there that can get them into some 
opportunities to do great things.
    So college, we all know, isn't for everybody. And there are 
other learning avenues that can help young people pursue a 
rewarding career. So we cannot address the underlying issues in 
education with a one-size-fits-all strategy. And I hope today's 
discussion, which I know it will, can shine a light on how 
important these alternate paths of education are to both small 
businesses, our nation's youth, and the future of our country. 
And that is the most important thing. A check from a job is 
much better than a check from the government, and we need to 
fix that.
    So with that, thank you, Chairman Molinaro, and I yield 
back my time. Thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You said that 
better and more brief than I did.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. I can be brief as long as you were.
    Chairman MOLINARO. That is right. You make up for it. Let's 
begin by introducing our witnesses. It is my honor to introduce 
our first, Patrice Onwuka. Ms. Onwuka is the Director of the 
Center for Economic Opportunity at the Independent Women's 
Forum. Leading a national women's organization that is 
dedicated to developing and furthering policies that enhance 
women's freedom, opportunities, and overall well-being. The 
organization celebrates women's accomplishments and works to 
expand opportunities for women by supporting policies that 
include cutting down and burdensome federal regulations. Ms. 
Onwuka has over a decade of experience working on economic, 
technological, philanthropic, and criminal justice system 
issues.
    In addition to her work at the Independent Women's Forum, 
Ms. Onwuka cohosts WMAL FM's morning show O'Connor & Company, 
the leading talk radio station in the D.C. area every Friday.
    Ms. Onwuka is also involved in several philanthropic 
groups, including serving as a senior fellow with the Alliance 
for Charitable Excellence, a project of the philanthropy 
roundtable, and as Tony Blankley's fellow at the Steamboat 
Institute--did I get it all.
    Born in the Caribbean, Ms. Onwuka grew up in Boston after 
immigrating with her family. She holds a bachelor's in 
economics and political science from Tufts University, as well 
as a master's in international relations from Boston College. 
Her expertise and passion to furthering opportunities for women 
make her an excellent voice to hear from today.
    Ms. Onwuka, thank you for joining us this morning, and we 
look forward to the conversation that we will have.
    At this point, I would like to recognize my colleague, Mr. 
Ellzey from Texas, to introduce his constituent who is 
appearing before us today.
    Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is all my honor to 
introduce my first witness, Mrs. Meloni Raney. Ms. Meloni Raney 
is the President and CEO of TEXO, a Texas-based construction 
association.
    Founded in 2009, TEXO was created to build a strong and 
vibrant construction community in north and east Texas. 
Comprised of over 300 Members who contribute over $15 billion 
to the greater economy, TEXO is one of the largest construction 
trade association in Texas and one of the largest in the 
country.
    Since Ms. Raney joined TEXO in 2013, she has played a key 
role in growing the association where she led member programs 
and service efforts until being promoted to President and CEO 
in 2015. A graduate of VOU, in Oklahoma, Ms. Raney majored in 
architecture and minored in construction science management.
    In 2016, Ms. Raney was an honoree at 40 Under 40 in the 
country for Building, Design, and Construction's National 
Magazine Award. She has also been an active Member of the 
Foundation for Young Women's Leadership Committee in Fort Worth 
for over a decade, with a focus on STEM education.
    With her extensive experience and passion for advancing the 
construction industry, Ms. Raney is well-situated to provide 
important insight into how we can strengthen workforce 
development in America.
    Ms. Raney, thank you for joining us this morning. I am 
looking forward to our conversation.
    Mr. Elzy, you are missing a couple of letters. I yield 
back.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Ellzey. And with that, 
let me introduce today's third witness and a constituent of 
mine, Mr. Bruno Schickel. Mr. Schickel is the president of 
Schickel Construction, a small business located in Dryden, New 
York. Founded in 1985, Schickel Construction has worked on over 
200 residential commercial and like commercial projects in 
Tompkins County, including Ithaca, New York, and at 
Trumansburg, Hector, and Aurora.
    Mr. Schickel employs 15 people at his company, and has well 
over 30 years of experience in the construction industry. His 
company works on everything from dream houses to cottage 
communities and rental properties that have garnered universal 
acclaim.
    In addition to helming his own business, Mr. Schickel 
served as president of the local Builders Association as well 
as president of the New York State Builders Association, and as 
national vice president of the National Association of Home 
Builders.
    His experience working on a diverse set of projects as well 
as his passion for the construction industry makes Mr. Schickel 
an excellent witness for us here today, and to hear from on the 
evolving challenges facing his industry, particularly, with 
workforce development.
    Mr. Schickel, I appreciate you being here. Thank you for 
joining us this morning. We look forward to our conversation. 
And with that, let me recognize again Ranking Member Mr. 
McGarvey to introduce the minority's witness for today's 
hearing.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And for 
Mr. Erik Elzy, there might be a few letters missing, but I know 
notice the haircut's hereditary.
    Our final witness today is Mr. Erik Elzy, assistant 
business manager for the United Association of Plumbers, 
Pipefitters, and Service Technician and Local 502 here in 
Louisville, Kentucky. Originally trained through Local 502's 
apprenticeship program, Mr. Elzy has been a journeyman plumber 
for more than 20 years. For more than a decade, he has also 
been heavily involved in educating other professionals in his 
field, serving both as an instructor and as a training 
coordinator where he was responsible for approximately 350 
trainees.
    Mr. Elzy has been appointed to the Kentucky State AFL-CIO 
General Executive Board and the Kentucky Department of Housing, 
Building, and Construction Advisory Committee. He also serves 
as the vice president for the Greater Louisville Building and 
Construction Trades Council.
    Mr. Elzy is also a friend. And I have been out to his 
facility, watched the respect he has and on the people he has 
trained and people whose lives he has changed. He does an 
amazing job in what he does for his field and our community. 
And I am so proud to have him representing our hometown and 
Local 502 here in Washington, D.C.
    Thank you for being here, Mr. Elzy, and I yield back.
    Chairman MOLINARO. I just remind my colleagues not to call 
into question the follicly-challenged. I am just saying, 
regardless of last names.
    So we appreciate you all being here. Thanks, Mr. McGarvey.
    Before recognizing the other witnesses for your testimony, 
I just want to remind you that your oral testimony is 
restricted to 5 minutes in length. There will be a little red 
light in front of you. And when that light clicks on, if you 
would not mind concluding your comments and beginning to wrap 
up. Otherwise, they have given me a modestly-sized gavel to 
make use of only if necessary. And with that, I now recognize 
Ms. Onwuka for her 5-minute opening remarks. Thank you.

STATEMENTS OF PATRICE LEE ONWUKA, DIRECTOR, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S 
FORUM, CENTER FOR ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY; MELONI RANEY, PRESIDENT 
 AND CEO, TEXO, THE CONSTRUCTION ASSOCIATION; BRUNO SCHICKEL, 
PRESIDENT, SCHICKEL CONSTRUCTION; ERIK ELZY, ASSISTANT BUSINESS 
    MANAGER, UNITED ASSOCIATION OF PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS.

                STATEMENT OF PATRICE LEE ONWUKA

    Ms. ONWUKA. Thank you so much, Chairman. Thank you, Ranking 
Member, and the Committee Members who are here. My name is 
Patrice Onwuka, and I am the director of the Center for 
Economic Opportunity at Independent Women's Forum.
    You know, we advocate for policies that enhance people's 
freedoms and opportunities, as well as their well-being as the 
Chairman mentioned. So I will give you a broad picture of where 
we are in the economy when it comes to labor force challenges.
    Today, more Americans hold a college degree than ever 
before. However, fewer students are coming from lower-, middle-
, and working-class backgrounds. Both younger and older adults 
feel the pressure to pursue higher education, and unfortunately 
are accumulating high debt to fund it. However, employers and 
workers increasingly question the value of degrees in terms of 
the costs and workforce preparedness. Some 70 million workers 
actually don't possess a college degree at all, and their labor 
force outcomes are being challenged right now.
    Now, we have a pandemic labor market that is beginning to 
ease, but employers are still grappling with widespread, long-
term labor shortages, driven by cultural and demographic 
changes that as well as well-intentioned policies that have 
limited opportunities. So I will explain a little bit further.
    Now, as we have heard today, American businesses are facing 
an unprecedented challenge, stemming from labor shortages. We 
have got 9.9 million open positions, 5.8 million unemployed 
Americans, there is a mismatch there. Labor force 
participation, interestingly, is below prepandemic levels and 
below pre-Great Recession levels. So people are falling out of 
the labor force. This is stunting economic growth for small 
businesses.
    According to the National Federation of Independent 
Business, 1 in 3 small business owners has openings for skilled 
workers, and 1 in 5 has openings for unskilled workers.
    The national implications are very obvious: Productivity, 
growth, supply chain, all of these interrelated factors are 
affected by this labor shortage. However, we see these labor 
shortages more pronounced in some industries more than others. 
The skill, the technical occupations, these are middle-scale 
jobs that deliver middle-scale and middle-class opportunities 
and lifestyles. And very often, they don't require a college 
degree necessarily.
    You will hear from my colleagues on the panel who are 
immersed day-to-day in the construction industry, for example, 
where there is a half a million gap of workers. But as I 
researched, it is not limited just to the trades. All of these 
industries across the economy are suffering.
    So how did we get here? Well, I will posit three different 
forces: Number one, the every-kid-to-college movement. This 
education evolution imagined a fully college-educated 
workforce. But this is a one-size-fits-all approach that 
doesn't take into consequence the unintended consequences. It 
stigmatized the trades, directed students away from entry-level 
careers in industries that can actually deliver middle-class 
lifestyles with ample opportunities and entrepreneurship's 
potential, which a lot of young people love without the debt.
    The cost of college became untethered from the value of the 
degrees, and unfortunately we have got to acknowledge this. 
Government-subsidized student loans are fueling this increase 
in college cost today.
    Number two, we have heard a little bit about the 
retirements. About 10,000 baby boomers reach retirement age 
every day in the United States. According to the Census Bureau, 
by 2030, the entire generation will have retired. Potentially. 
But this creates opportunities, obviously. It also creates a 
loss of knowledge and experience.
    And then the third big force: Degree inflation. This is the 
proliferation of degree requirements for jobs that didn't have 
those requirements before. Very often, employers routinely use 
college degrees to screen out applicants.
    According to Harvard Business School, 61 percent of 
employers polled rejected applicants who had relevant skills 
and experience because they didn't have a degree. Talk about a 
barrier to opportunity. Men have been hurt by degree inflation, 
and Blacks and Hispanics, people who don't necessarily have 
high college graduation rates, also suffer.
    Employers, though, pay the price as well. Middle-scale jobs 
that are difficult to fill, feeding this worker shortage, and 
wage-inflation drives up the cost for business because you have 
to spend more to attract high-degree earners.
    Unfortunately, a degree is not also or always a signal of 
the soft skills that you may be looking for. So what can we do? 
With my last 39 seconds, I have got some policy solutions, but 
I will just name them.
    Number one, we have got to fight degree inflation. And this 
is already underway, but there are opportunities for Congress 
and lawmakers at every level to participate, on a bipartisan 
force.
    Number two, reform excessive credentialing. Credentialing 
can be great. It can be a great alternative, but it can also be 
a barrier to opportunity. Again, there is bipartisan agreement 
there.
    And number three, protecting independent contracting. Many 
young people want to be their own small business owners. They 
should be allowed to do so. And there are ways for Congress as 
well as States to protect that. Government policies can be 
well-intended, but they can create barriers to opportunity. And 
that is where we want to stop that. Thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you for that very much.
    And with that I would like to recognize Ms. Raney for her 
5-minute remarks.

                   STATEMENT OF MELONI RANEY

    Mrs. RANEY. Chairman Molinaro, Ranking Member McGarvey, and 
Members of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, 
and Workforce Development. Thank you for inviting me to testify 
on the importance of a well-trained workforce for the 
construction industry and the value of a career in the 
industry.
    My name is Meloni Raney. I have spent my career in the 
construction industry, beginning as an architect, and now as 
president and CEO of TEXO, the largest commercial contractors 
association in Texas, representing construction member 
companies that do more than $14 billion of work annually in the 
Dallas-Fort Worth region.
    I am testifying on behalf of the Associated General 
Contractors of America, AGC, the leading association in the 
construction industry representing more than 27,000 firms.
    The country is experiencing the greatest labor shortage in 
generations, with acute shortages in the construction industry. 
The good news is the industry is making great investments and 
local workforce development, and Congress can help. Recent 
federal infrastructure investments in combination with expected 
private sector investments will provide many future workers 
with good-paying jobs and long careers, if we can find a way to 
encourage more people to pursue construction careers.
    Congress can help put more high school and college 
graduates into high-paying construction careers by increasing 
funding and local flexibility. Doing so will not only provide 
essential construction skills, but also serve as valuable 
recruiting tools by signaling to students and young adults that 
construction is a career path worth considering. By giving 
construction the starring role in rebuilding the economy, a new 
generation of workers can be brought into the construction 
trades for careers where they can economically advance and 
prosper.
    According to an AGC Autodesk 2022 Workforce Survey, 
construction workforce shortages risk undermining 
infrastructure projects as most contractors struggle to fill 
open positions. According to the JOLT Survey from the Bureau of 
Labor Statistics, contractors wanted to hire more than twice as 
many workers as they were able to hire. In Texas, the industry 
struggles to fill positions for record-sized projects. The 
reason firms have difficulty finding workers, even though 
hourly pay in construction averages 19 percent or more than the 
overall private sector is the country has essentially 
dismantled the once robust pipeline for recruiting and 
preparing new construction workers.
    In Texas, TEXO has prioritized recruiting workers to the 
construction industry and providing a skilled workforce. The 
multifaceted tactics include workforce development initiatives 
and craft-training programs.
    The TEXO Foundation is active in Dallas-Fort Worth area 
schools connecting students to the industry, and much of its 
success is due to involvement of employers. The Construction 
Education Foundation, the craft training arm of TEXO, has over 
2,600 students enrolled in training programs with 140 
participating employers across eight trades.
    The earn-and-learn model offers graduates a recognized 
credential that certifies proficiency in one of eight trades. 
The participants are paid by an employer. Employers gain access 
to a skilled talent pool that improves productivity and reduces 
turnover. Meanwhile, new workers learn valuable and portable 
skills without having to accumulate college debt. Instead, 
employers bear much of the cost for training. This is a very 
different model than our current approach to collegiate 
education where students bear most of the cost regardless of 
employment prospects.
    Federal officials are spending far more to encourage new 
workers to go to college instead of pursuing rewarding careers 
in construction. For every dollar the federal government spends 
urging students to enroll in college and enter the service 
sector, it invests 20 cents in career and technical education. 
This higher education bias is doing a disservice to our 
nation's youth by encouraging a massive accumulation of debt 
that doesn't often lead to a career in their field of study.
    CTE programs are among the most valuable education 
programs. However, programs are expensive to administer and 
fund with cost-intensive classrooms, and equipment and quality 
instructors in short supply.
    Finally, recent major infrastructure investments from 
Congress, such as the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, 
the Inflation Reduction Act, and the CHIPS Act, are intended to 
address many documented needs. However, some other programs are 
imposing workforce requirements that further limit the ability 
of construction contractors to perform their work.
    Imposing arbitrary workforce requirements that further 
narrow the pools of workers that qualify to work on federal 
infrastructure projects will only make it harder, longer, and 
costlier for these projects to be built.
    Thank you again for inviting AGC to testify before the 
Committee today, and I look forward to answering any questions 
you have.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mrs. Raney.
    And now, Mr. Schickel, for 5 minutes opening comments.

                  STATEMENT OF BRUNO SCHICKEL

    Mr. SCHICKEL. Good morning. I am an owner of a small 
business in the Ithaca, New York, area. My company, Schickel 
Construction, specializes in residential and light commercial 
work.
    Now, I am the first person in my family in many generations 
to have not gone to college. Being the ninth child of 13 
children, I think my parents were relieved when I decided to 
take a different path, given the financial burdens of college 
tuition. I would like to say that going to college is not the 
only way to get an education, it just happens to be the easier 
way, but the more expensive way.
    I attended shop class in high school, and I built a lot of 
great furniture then. I wanted to make things. I did not want 
to go to college. After high school, I joined the carpenters' 
union and did residential construction for a while. Then over 
the next 10 years, I worked for a variety of different 
companies in on-the-job training.
    At 28, I decided that I was ready to go out on my own, and 
I started my own company in 1984, and I have consistently 
employed 10 to 15 people for the past 39 years.
    Recently, I polled my employees to see how many went to 
shop class in high school. Sixty percent of them did. Hands-on 
and on-the-job training is how I learned the construction 
industry. I would like to say that anybody can learn how to 
build a house, hands-on, but not everybody can easily learn how 
to run a business.
    I learned how to run a business by attending the annual 
International Builders' Show sponsored by NAHB, or the National 
Association of Home Builders. Every year, I would take part in 
their seminars that they had to offer.
    There is little difference between the unemployment rate of 
workers that get a college degree and workers that don't, but 
there is a big difference in their debt burden. This debt 
burden sets young people back decades in terms of their 
economic security.
    Now, if you go back to the mid-eighties, early eighties, I 
was hiring for a construction company, and we had workers lined 
up out the door, literally, looking for work. Fast forward to 
2008 and 2009, that recession, I was lucky if I would get one 
or two applicants a week. Now the situation currently is 
literally nobody will apply. And sometimes I just simply give 
up altogether and just stop trying.
    In my mind, we have a short-term problem and we have a 
long-term problem. The short-term problem is we are facing a 
historic labor shortage right now. Everyone reports the same 
problem. There is nobody to hire. Just think about how much 
more our economy could be expanding and growing if businesses 
could hire the people they need. I know my business, 
personally, could increase 20 or 30 percent, easily.
    The National Association of Home Builders estimated the 
next 2 years, we are short 2.2 million jobs. And without those, 
a million homes won't be built. Currently, this country has an 
unprecedented number of jobs going unfilled. At the same time, 
we have an unprecedented number of people not working and 
collecting government benefits. Clearly, something is seriously 
out of whack.
    The long-term problem, over the past 50 years, the 
workforce balance has shifted. Few people want to make things 
now. Too much emphasis has been put on attending college and 
too little on the rewards of jobs in the trades. Resources for 
vocational training and technical training have declined. Many 
schools stop offering shop classes altogether. The vocational 
tract has become the poor cousin of the college tract. We need 
to restore some balance.
    I would say that hands-on and on-the-job training is a good 
place to start. Let's bring back shop class to high schools. 
Thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Schickel.
    And now for 5 minutes, the other Mr. Elzy.

                     STATEMENT OF ERIK ELZY

    Mr. ELZY. Good morning, Committee Members. Thank you to 
honor of speaking before you today. My name is Erik Elzy, and I 
am a proud 26-year Member of the United Association of 
Plumbers, Pipefitters, and HVACR Service Technicians, Local 502 
in, Louisville, Kentucky. I have held various positions in my 
local union, including apprentice plumber, journeyman plumber, 
general foreman, superintendent, apprentice instructor, 
training coordinator for Local 502's training center, 
instructor nationally for the United Association, And business 
representative, the job I currently hold.
    I am here today to speak to you on the importance of 
apprenticeships in the construction industry, especially the 
industry that I represent.
    My experience started in 1997, as a registered apprentice. 
I worked under the tutelage of many passionate, educated 
plumbers and plumbing instructors for 5 years until I met the 
requirements to graduate in 2002. The passion these Members 
have shown me led me to return the passion to young men and 
women currently making up Local 502's membership as an 
apprentice instructor, and as a training coordinator so that I 
could have a hands-on experience in their education. Some of 
these Members are still my mentors today, and I am forever 
indebted to them for the education they provided to me when I 
was a young man.
    I have been appointed to several boards representing Local 
502 in the State of Kentucky, either by business manager or 
Governor Andy Beshear. Some of these being Greater Louisville 
Building and Construction Trades Council vice president, 
Kentucky State AFL-CIO Executive Board Member, the Department 
of Housing, Buildings, and Construction Advisory Committee.
    And I can assure you that among other topics covered in 
these meetings or these committees, the conversation always 
seems to always find its way to worker shortages in the State 
of Kentucky. We bounce ideas around the room on how each 
organization is planning on making sure manpower requests are 
met now and in the future, which always includes 
apprenticeships.
    Apprenticeships are required to register with the state in 
which they are located as well as the Department of Labor. Thus 
having them prove how money is spent, retention rates, provide 
curriculums for approval, among other things. This helps ensure 
that registered apprenticeships meet required levels of 
quality, and that Members' contributions, or in some cases, 
federal and state grants are used responsibly.
    With my experience as an apprenticeship instructor and 
training coordinator locally, I have personally witnessed how 
valuable the education provided to our apprentices shows versus 
when someone who has taken a 6-week course to pass a license 
exam or someone who has some field education, but that is all 
they have shines through.
    Most union apprenticeships have earn-while-you-learn 
programs. This allows the apprentice to take classroom, 
workshop learning, and translate it into their field of work 
and vice versa. This is also a great way to learn for someone 
who is more of a hands-on learner all while maintaining full-
time employment and benefits to provide for themselves, and if 
applicable, to their families.
    Apprenticeships have proven to be very beneficial to 
businesses, both large and small. Larger businesses, in some 
cases, are capable of developing in-house apprenticeships. 
While smaller businesses may not be able to afford this type of 
training on their own.
    In the case of Local 502, we partner with contractors that 
have anywhere from 350 Local 502 Members down to just two 
Members. We are able to help all contractors, notwithstanding 
their size, following one guiding principle: We train 
apprentices to perform a job skill, not a job skill for a 
certain type of contractor.
    Some smaller businesses in years past have been intimidated 
to approach unions with a fear of cost of becoming a union 
contractor. In recent years, Local 502 has seen a rise in 
smaller contractors become a signatory to us. This is from the 
education that they are receiving at our apprenticeship. We 
offer a class to every Member on starting a new business and 
how Local 502 can assist in the financial burden of someone 
just starting out. Since implementing this class, we have had 
several Members take this class and have had five new Members 
start businesses.
    Recently, Congress enacted legislation regarding 
infrastructure. This one bill will require hundreds of 
thousands of qualified workers for the foreseeable future. One 
way Congress can help with this shortage, I believe, is to help 
promote apprenticeships in the workforce as a career choice the 
same way a 4-year degree is promoted.
    In my profession, people have chosen to become a plumber, 
pipefitter, or HVACR Service Technician. No different than 
choosing to become a doctor or a lawyer. The education is 
different, but not less important. In fact, in our opinions, 
the education is more important to the health and safety of 
Americans.
    Again, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. 
It has truly been my honor and privilege.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Elzy. We appreciate you 
all being here with us today. At this point, we will move on to 
Members' questions. And I would have like to yield myself 5 
minutes to begin.
    Mr. Schickel, I want you to dive a little bit deeper into 
rural America and upstate New York. Could you speak to a degree 
about the specific challenges you face in recruiting and 
finding applicants for work?
    Mr. SCHICKEL. Thank you. I think the biggest problem right 
now is that nobody is applying. It is a very vexing situation. 
Not literally nobody is applying, but figuratively it is. I 
have hired a couple of people recently that, you know, over 
maybe 3 or 4 months, some people did come forward. And I 
offered them a job, and they never showed up. They literally 
never showed up for work. Never called and never contacted. I 
am not sure why that is. I think the balance is just out of 
whack. And I don't know why that is, but thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. So let's dive a little bit. What, 
specifically, though, do you think is keeping folks from coming 
to work? You know to be--with some detail, what are you hearing 
in certainly your area of the industry?
    Mr. SCHICKEL. You know, it is a vexing question because 
there--I think the assumption is that they are being well-
rewarded. The incentives not to work are so great or too 
generous that the alternative of working is not attractive 
enough. That is what I hear.
    Chairman MOLINARO. And you can say it. In our State, there 
are government supports that are discouraging people to reenter 
the workforce.
    Mr. SCHICKEL. Without question. Without question.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Okay. Other than perhaps using those 
tools to incentivize work, what could government's role be to 
get folks back, at least, again, rural New York in your line of 
work?
    Mr. SCHICKEL. I think people have to understand that 
careers in the trades are a very noble and good profession, and 
they pay well. And I think it is a promotional thing. I think 
that so much emphasis has been put on getting a college 
education. So many resources are committed to that, and not 
enough is put on hands-on work and making things. And I think 
that balance just has to be changed. And that is the long-term 
goal or long-term challenge. And then the short-term challenge 
is getting people to step forward.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you. These are good actually a 
segue for me to ask Ms. Raney a question. I often say my step 
dad's a brilliant mathematician. A brilliant mathematician, so 
long as he is under the hood of a car. And test-taking and the 
challenge certainly in public school--I should probably say 
Skip Van Anden (ph) was--is and remains a great mechanic. My 
dad doesn't often get in the Congressional Record anyway, so I 
should probably acknowledge that.
    But the challenge from high school and test-taking and so 
on was overwhelming. And, ultimately, you know I will say, in 
his day, and now, and certainly today, the demand to only learn 
a certain way, to be educated a certain way is demoralizing. 
What your efforts through the TEXO High School Outreach 
Committee, I think is an important sort of connection in 
creating that pipeline.
    Can you talk a little bit about what the Committee does and 
how you might inspire young people to actually move down this 
path.
    Mrs. RANEY. I can. I think that is what is so exciting 
about what we are doing is we are taking people who have 
incredible careers in construction, and we are putting them in 
front of these high school students who are--they are studying 
CTE, but they actually don't know how to get into the industry. 
So there is a disconnect between you are studying CTE in high 
school, but you don't know how to go into the industry, and you 
don't necessarily know--there is a perception issue with 
construction, it is your last resort. So if you fail at 
everything else, then you can get into construction.
    And so, we are putting people in front of them to change 
that perception and give them hope that this is a bright career 
for you. We show them the salary ranges. We show them people 
who have progressed through the trades. We put people in front 
of them that look like them, so that they know construction is 
open to anybody. And so, we are giving them hope by getting in 
front of them early. We start in middle school, and then we are 
with them all along the high school journey, and we are 
bringing them into the industry.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you for that. I just think the 
one-size-fits-all education structure is not only depleting the 
workforce, it is demoralizing some of our brightest minds. I am 
grateful for the work that you do. With that, my time has 
expired. I will recognize Ranking Member McGarvey for your 5 
minutes.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will start off 
with a point of agreement where we shouldn't have the one-size-
fits-all model. I think that is what we are doing here.
    And, Mr. Schickel, I really appreciate what you said about 
showing that the trades are a noble career. And I want to 
stress that. What we are highlighting here today is it is not 
just a job, it is a career in the trades where you can learn to 
do something, make something, really contribute to our society, 
and provide a good life for you and your family.
    Mr. Elzy, I appreciate you being here today, for being such 
a mentor and teacher in the trades and our community. We know 
that apprenticeships offer an effective model of workforce 
development, especially in the construction industry, where you 
do have to have that hands-on training, Mr. Schickel.
    Mr. Elzy, can you explain why these apprenticeships are so 
widely used in the construction industry and why 
apprenticeships outmatch other forms of training?
    Mr. ELZY. Thank you. I think that when, in my situation, 
again, we employ plumbers, pipefitters, HVACR service 
technicians. So our contractors, when they call us and want--
are looking for someone--they can call for a specialty--I want 
a plumber, apprentice, first-year, 2nd-year, 3rd-year, 4th-
year, 5th-year. Whatever year you want, that is what we are 
going to send you. We are going to send you that type of an 
apprentice in whatever trade that you are looking for.
    And I would like to also say, referring back to what she 
down at the end said, I mean, you know, it is hard to reach 
these young kids, too, and make them understand how to get into 
a field. So, you know, we are doing a lot of outreach in these 
schools now, you know, in the high school level with our 
coordinators, and showing them what it is like to be plumber, a 
pipefitter, an HVACR service technician, and where they can go 
with it.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. And you mentioned businesses calling you 
asking for a certain thing. Well, one of the things you talked 
about in your testimony was sometimes hesitancy of smaller 
contractors to use union labor. But that recently, you have 
seen an uptick in some of these contractors saying that they 
want to become a union. Can you elaborate on that a little bit 
about the value of apprenticeships from the employer 
perspective and how that is helping with the unions?
    Mr. ELZY. Yeah, like the smaller contractors. Like I said 
in my testimony, in the years past, smaller contractors were 
very leery of saying I want to be a union contractor for the 
simple cost of the fringe benefit package with the wages also. 
And it scared them away thinking that there is another cost 
attached to it just to say I am a union contractor. Well, there 
is not a cost attached to that. You know, but in order to pay 
the wages in the fringe benefit packages, that does come at a 
cost. But you are getting a more well-trained individual, and 
you can always have someone when you need someone.
    So what we have done is we have what is called a market 
recovery fund that our Members have decided to start in order 
to grow our local and our market share in our area. So if a 
Member decides--or not just a Member, any small contractor in 
our area decides, Hey, I want to be a union contractor, they 
come in, sit down and talk to us, and we say, Hey, we can help 
you for the first 6 months to a year with your fringe benefits 
with this market recovery fund, and we will help you get your 
feet on the ground and get some money established for yourself 
before you--we don't want to see you fail. We want to see you 
succeed and stay a union contractor for the next 100 years.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Your story is very compelling, too. You 
decided to pursue a career in the trades and turned down a 
scholarship to go to college. What made you change course, and 
how has pursuing apprenticeship helped your professionally? And 
I guess, you know, in the last couple of minutes, what advice 
do you have for young people considering joining an 
apprenticeship program?
    Mr. ELZY. I would say, I did go to college. I was on a 
baseball scholarship. And it did not take me long to understand 
that I was not a college student, I was a baseball player. And 
you can't do both. I mean, you have to do both at the same 
time. You can't pick one. You got to do both. So my grades were 
not good enough. My baseball coach said, Hey, you are not going 
to be able to keep your scholarship. And I was from a family 
that--God bless my dad. You know, he worked hard, but he didn't 
make a good living, and he couldn't afford to send me to school 
anymore. So I had to come back and get a job. And I was 
actually found on a softball field. As a college baseball 
playing slow pitch softball, you know, you are found pretty 
easily.
    So I was picked up by the union team, and the union team 
said, Hey, would you like to be a preapprentice. And I didn't 
know what that was. They handed me a packet. They said take it 
home and talk to your parents about it. I am a 19-year-old kid. 
I went home and showed it to my dad. My dad told me I was an 
idiot if I didn't take advantage of this.
    So 26 years later, here I am. And it has been great to me 
because in my younger years as I talked about my mentors, you 
know, as a 19-, 20-, 21-, 22-year-old kid, I didn't care about 
a retirement. I didn't care about health benefits. But 26 years 
later, I have a pension that is going to provide for me and my 
wife. When I retire, I am going to be eligible to retire at the 
age of 57. I mean, you can't hardly say that anymore in this 
day and age.
    So this union, my education has provided very well for me 
and my family for the last 26 years. And I am proud to say that 
I am from that.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Elzy. I appreciate 
your testimony. And like you stood out on the softball field, 
this is a bipartisan Committee, but we have a partisan event on 
June 14, which is a congressional baseball game. If you still 
have any eligibility left, we can get you in.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. It is hardball.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. That is right. It is the hardball. I yield 
back.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. McGarvey. It is hardball, 
and we also cannot recruit from the Committee. I think it is in 
Ethics.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Okay. I thought I would try.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, though. A very good effort. 
And with that, I would like to recognize Mr. Ellzey from Texas 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 
being here today. I love having my staff prepare all these 
questions. And as I hear the conversation, I love where we end 
up going. And this whole generation that we are talking about 
you guys are trying to find to fill these jobs, there are a 
number of issues that have occurred over the last 5 years that 
have led to a decline in our workforce, and everybody is 
struggling from it. When I go try to find folks to apply to the 
military academies, we can't find them, to enlist in the 
military, to become first responders, to--any number of trades. 
And if we are going to talk about fathers, I would like to say 
my father-in-law, Bob Hoback, is a master builder as well. So 
he is now in the register. So he is proud. But it is really to 
find these people.
    And then COVID really kind of upset the apple cart, and 
then video games did, too, and whatever they are doing online, 
and the monitorization of the internet has made it difficult 
for you to find that 18- to 22-year-old who you need right now. 
They are going to probably stay with that path for the rest of 
their lives.
    But it also occurs to me that we have a guidance counselor 
problem, I think, nationwide. It doesn't matter what region you 
are in, guidance counselors need to be finding these kids in 
school and say, you know what, do you want to go to college? 
Well, yes, I do. Or, no, I don't. Well, in case you don't, here 
he is where you need to be going.
    But to your point about wood shop, I think it was you that 
mentioned wood shop. Yeah, we need that stuff back in junior 
high and show the people working with your hands and having a 
career for your whole life is extremely important. So I will 
get to the questions now. So everything is a struggle to find 
folks.
    Mrs. Raney, are you finding a light at the end of tunnel 
after we have come out of COVID, moneys are starting to be 
pulled back, and people are kind of looking around trying to 
find a job. Are we seeing a light at the end of the tunnel? And 
if not, when do you think we will see that?
    Mrs. RANEY. I think we are seeing glimmers of light. We 
have pockets of huge success stories coming from schools. If we 
are active in the schools and we build relationships with these 
students for 4 years, they were coming into our industry. So I 
can tell you success--Congressman Williams talk about needing 
welders in the State. We have a school that sends us about 25 
welders every single year. They graduate, and they come into 
our industry. But that is a very specific school that we are 
targeted, and we are in partnership with for 4 years to get 
those graduates. So we are seeing glimmers. What we have to do 
is make it a scalable approach. DFW has 8 million people in our 
metroplex. It is a massive--there is massive schools that we 
have to go find. So making that scalable is what we have to do 
and continue to educate those counselors so that they are 
pushing people into our programs.
    Mr. ELLZEY. But you are starting to see it get better.
    Mrs. RANEY. We are.
    Mr. ELLZEY. Ms. Onwuka, what policy change do you believe 
would have the most significant impact on fixing this labor 
force shortage?
    Ms. ONWUKA. Where do I begin?
    Mr. ELLZEY. You have got 30 seconds to solve the whole 
world's problems.
    Ms. ONWUKA. I know. I mean, I think, number one, related to 
what we are talking about here which is just the pushback 
between the every-kid-to-college movement. Part of the reason 
why guidance counselors have been pushing kids to college is 
because there has been some financial incentives, and there is 
this idea that schools want to have a college graduation rate 
or a college participation rate for their high school students 
going to college. And so, there is some financial incentivize 
there. There is also just this idea that we were sending lots 
of kids to college. That is changing. And I think because we 
have $1.7 trillion in student loan debt, younger people are 
recognizing that they don't want to go down the path that I as 
a millennial did and incur a lot of debt.
    And so, what can we do? I talked about fighting degree 
inflation. Absolutely. Private employers are getting rid of 
their degree requirements for positions that they don't need to 
see--that they don't need that. It has preceded the pandemic 
and accelerated during the pandemic, which is great. 
Policymakers, state-level and federal, have an opportunity to 
look and take an audit of every single open position and decide 
does this actually need a degree? Can this job be done without 
that? We are seeing in States like Maryland--I believe it is 
Utah and one other State where those governors decided we are 
going to eliminate all degree requirements.
    That opens up jobs for people who may have years of 
experience in the workforce, but have been locked out of those 
positions. So that is one way of attacking this problem.
    Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I yield 
back. Thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Ellzey.
    With that, I would like to recognize Mr. Pappas from New 
Hampshire for 5 minutes.
    Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I thank 
our panel for their contributions for the discussion here 
today. I think this is the most important conversation 
happening here on the Hill here today. And I see this all 
across my district. I was at a steel fabricator not too long 
ago in Cambian, New Hampshire, Atlantic Bridge and Engineering. 
And they are obviously looking for workers. They are utilizing 
every square inch of their facility as they seek to scale up to 
meet the demand with respect to major public works, projects, 
and a construction boom that we are seeing in southern New 
Hampshire and the greater Boston area. But that is good news, 
but it presents a serious challenge to this company to be able 
to compete.
    One thing I wanted to ask Mrs. Raney about is a career in 
technical education. You talked a little bit about building 
pipelines, which are crucially important, that partnership 
between the private sector and CTE programs is necessary to be 
able to highlight the opportunities that are out there to young 
people. But, of course, our CTE programs need funding, they 
need modern equipment, they need adequate instruction to be 
able to facilitate the kind of change that we need to see in 
this country.
    So can you talk about a successful model in terms of a 
career in technical education program, and the kind of 
partnership with the private sector that is necessary?
    Mrs. RANEY. Yeah, I think you actually just hit on one of 
the biggest challenges we have is when these students--in the 
State of Texas in 8th grade, you have to choose whether you are 
going to go the CTE route in high school or a college-bound 
rate in high school. So if you choose the CTE program, you 
choose a specific thing you are going to study. So the 
construction labs are very expensive because the equipment is 
expensive. And then finding instructors, because the industry 
is hiring all of the instructors right now.
    So when we go in and partner with a school and supply the 
equipment, and we help them find instructors, and we are 
physically in the classroom at least once a week or, you know, 
once every couple of weeks, that is a partnership. And so, when 
those students graduate, we are finding success. And then 
working at the firms that are in those classrooms. So to us, it 
is a partnership where the industry is physically recruiting 
middle school and high school students and changing that 
perception of what it is like to be in construction, and then 
they are hired out of high school to join the apprenticeship 
training program. So there are pockets of success stories we 
are seeing all across DFW.
    Mr. PAPPAS. Yeah, well, thanks for those thoughts. And, Mr. 
Elzy, I appreciate your presence here. And I think you did a 
great job highlighting registered apprenticeship programs. And 
I have gotten to know some in my district. I have met people 
who are changing career paths mid-career. I met a woman who was 
a paraprofessional; had trouble paying her bills. She was 
working in the school system, but she got trained up as a union 
carpenter and is looking forward to a great lifetime in that 
industry.
    So I am wondering if you can talk a little bit about some 
of the barriers that people might face to access these 
programs. I know a lot has been said about why people are on 
the sidelines for workforce. I know, based on my conversations, 
that it is a number of things that come into play. But how can 
we open up more of these opportunities to folks who are either 
just starting out or mid-career or are looking for a chance to 
get ahead and stay ahead?
    Mr. ELZY. I know that Congress doesn't promote, you know, 
4-year schools, colleges, and trade schools, but just a 
promotion. In our area, what we are trying do is we are 
spending lots of money advertising in our city. And Congressman 
McGarvey can probably say, you can't drive anywhere in the city 
of Louisville without seeing a billboard that says Local 502, 
or a commercial on television, or a commercial on the radio 
that says Local 502. And, again, like you said, that is just 
some people say, Well, what is Local 502?
    So it is hard. It is a very difficult task to reach these 
young people because for so long, they have been told the 4-
year degree is the way to go. So we are in a process, I think, 
of--the vocational school is coming back around. And, you know, 
while it is coming back around, these organizations like us 
need to take advantage of being able to go and visit these 
schools, set up to these schools, and get rid of the barriers, 
and make these kids understand that this is a good living, good 
pay, good benefits. So the barriers--I guess what you are 
trying to get me to answer is, you know, the barriers are 
there, and I don't really know the answer other than to 
continue to put it in front of their face. To continue to say, 
This is a good living. Just because you are working in the heat 
and the cold, and you are hot and sweaty and you are dirty 
doesn't mean it is not honorable, and you cannot provide for 
your families. Because I am a testament that that is wrong. I 
used to be the dirty guy that came home and played with my 
children in the yard with dirty clothes on.
    Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I think that is important then. Look, 
there are a number of things we have to address as we build 
capacity and skills in our workforce, including immigration, 
including the addiction of mental health crisis that we are 
experiencing in this country. But we also need to continue to 
work together on this mindset shift. There is no one right 
path. And there are great careers out there in the trades. And 
so by working together and highlighting those opportunities and 
making sure we are getting to kids early is a great way to do 
it. So thanks for your thoughts here today. I yield back.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, sir. And with that, I would 
have like to recognize Chairman Williams for 5 minutes.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is great panel. 
I appreciate all of you. And as mentioned earlier, back in 
Texas, 100,000 kids a year dropping out of the 9th grade. 
100,000--that is just in Texas alone. Losing hope, don't think 
they can be something they don't want to be. And I think we all 
hit it on the head is that we need to promote this, because the 
truth of the matter is we all know that once they get into 
career opportunities and do some things, that they make more 
money than the guys that are--that everybody thinks got money. 
And I remember back--remember the cold snap we had 2 years ago? 
Nobody that I know of, nobody I know called the plumber or the 
welder or the carpenter and said, How much are you going to 
charge me if you come out here? It was zero degrees, for crying 
out loud. Just save me.
    So there's not many businesses like that. So we need to 
promote that. And we need to make sure these kids understand 
that there is a lot of hope after the 9th grade in these 
industries. And, you know, a lot of them don't even know that 
current technical current education programs exist. And I know 
before I got here, I heard somebody talk about the fact that 
plumbers--metal shop and wood shop, you had to take that when I 
was in school in the fifties, and we need to get back to that.
    So, Mr. Raney, can elaborate on the work of TEXO to educate 
young people about the opportunities that are out there. Oh, I 
am sorry, Mrs. Raney. We flew up on the plane together.
    Mrs. RANEY. We did. So TEXO Foundation is active in around 
75 high schools in the Dallas, Fort Worth region. And we are 
working with around 7,000 students in the DFW area. And when 
you look at how many ISDs, that is a small amount compared to 
how many we have to go reach. But we are active on advisory 
councils. We are active in the classrooms. Like I said earlier, 
we are changing the perception of what it is like to be in 
construction and showing them a path forward.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Great. You are doing a good job.
    Ms. Onwuka, you talked about how college is getting more 
expensive. We know that, right? And, yet, I haven't seen any 
additional return on investment for students. So what is 
driving this disconnect, do you think, in our education system?
    Ms. ONWUKA. Well, the disconnect when it comes to every-
kid-to-college model is, from the cost standpoint, I think, you 
look at funding. And part of it is just that the ability for 
students to access federal funds, and the fact that the federal 
government really is subsidizing the rising cost of college.
    Let me give you an interesting statistic here. For every 
dollar that the federal government puts into college in the 
subsidized loans, colleges raise their cost by 60 cents. So, 
there is this cycle of, well, you can charge more because the 
federal government is going to subsidize. At the same time, 
young people feel, well, college is the only route, so I have 
got to take out the student loans. And that is where you are 
getting the vicious cycle.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. You know, I have got a bill that would have 
information about these programs on the Department of 
Education's website right before a student submits their 
paperwork to take out student loans and make them aware that 
there is options out there.
    Ms. ONWUKA. Transparency, right.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Schickel, you have got a great story 
about taking a leap of faith when you were 28 to start your own 
business now. There is no universal path you can take to start 
your own small business, we know that. But for all young people 
who are nervous about going off on their own, starting a small 
business, can you describe the steps you took to start your 
business all those years, all those years ago, right, and how 
you learned the intricacies of operating your own business?
    Mr. SCHICKEL. Thank you. You know, I think--as I said in my 
testimony, it is pretty easy, relatively easy to learn how to 
build a house, but it is tough to run a business successfully. 
And I took advantage of the educational opportunities every 
year that the National Association of Home Builders provided 
with their annual International Builders Show. It was a 3-day 
extravaganza of probably 100 to 150 different seminars that you 
can take about every imaginable thing. And I really mind that 
for the knowledge and the expertise and the networking that was 
available on those occasions. And then every year, I just honed 
my skills and worked and worked and worked to improve my 
abilities.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. And you opened up in the morning, and you 
locked it up at night, didn't you?
    Mr. SCHICKEL. Oh, absolutely.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Ms. Onwuka, I will quickly here ask you 
a question. Can you talk about credentialing issues that 
prevent people from going into certain careers?
    Ms. ONWUKA. Sure. Occupational licensing refers to just the 
licenses for someone to, you know, participate in any type of 
occupation. It is really a State-level issue. It is supposed to 
signal that someone has the training or knowledge or education 
that they need. Sometimes it can become a barrier to 
opportunity, particularly, for immigrants, for people who have 
criminal records, which a lot of young people have 
unfortunately today, and for women particularly, military 
spouses who cannot transfer their licenses from State to State.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my time is up. I will just say that the 
circle of an economy or a business or anything else is not 
completed until you fill the gap of the people we are talking 
about. There will always be an issue that we need to continue 
to fight. I yield back my time back. Thank you.
    Chairman MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
for your leadership with the Small Business Committee and your 
faith in this Subcommittee's work.
    I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here with us 
today. I agree with Mr. Pappas, this perhaps is maybe one of 
the most important conversations occurring on the Hill. In 
order to rebuild the American economy, we have to inspire folks 
not only to work, but to achieve success, rather that is 
through the trades or developing your own business, encouraging 
that, and breaking down some of those obstacles is critically 
important.
    So with that, without objection, Members have five 
legislative days to submit additional materials and written 
questions for the witnesses to the Chair, which will be 
forwarded to the witnesses. And at this point, I would ask 
witnesses to please respond promptly should that occur. And if 
there is no further business, without objection, the Committee 
is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:10 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
                            A P P E N D I X

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