[Senate Hearing 117-716]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 117-716

               CONSIDERING THE INDEX FUND VOTING PROCESS

=======================================================================



                                HEARING

                               before the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                   BANKING,HOUSING,AND URBAN AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                                   ON

                EXAMINING THE INDEX FUND VOTING PROCESS

                               __________

                             JUNE 14, 2022
                               __________
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               

Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs



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                               ______
                                 
                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

55-779 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026








            COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS

                     SHERROD BROWN, Ohio, Chairman

JACK REED, Rhode Island              PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey          RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama
JON TESTER, Montana                  MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts      MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              CYNTHIA LUMMIS, Wyoming
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  JERRY MORAN, Kansas
RAPHAEL G. WARNOCK, Georgia          KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
                                     STEVE DAINES, Montana

                     Laura Swanson, Staff Director
                 Brad Grantz, Republican Staff Director

                       Elisha Tuku, Chief Counsel

                 Dan Sullivan, Republican Chief Counsel

                      Cameron Ricker, Chief Clerk
                      Shelvin Simmons, IT Director
                        Pat Lally, Hearing Clerk










                                  (ii)








                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                         TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2022

                                                                   Page
Opening statement of Chairman Brown..............................     1
        Prepared statement.......................................    23

Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of:
    Senator Toomey...............................................     3
        Prepared statement.......................................    24

                               WITNESSES

Senator Dan Sullivan of Alaska...................................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................    25
John C. Coates IV, John F. Cogan, Jr., Professor of Law and 
  Economics, Harvard Law School..................................     7
    Prepared statement...........................................    26
    Responses to written questions of:
        Chairman Brown...........................................    76
        Senator Sinema...........................................    78
        Senator Tillis...........................................    78
Caleb Griffin, Assistant Professor of Law, University of Arkansas 
  School of Law..................................................     8
    Prepared statement...........................................    35
    Responses to written questions of:
        Senator Sinema...........................................    78
        Senator Tillis...........................................    79

              Additional Material Supplied for the Record

Letter submitted by Kathryn Fulton, Managing Director, BlackRock.    81

                                 (iii)








 
               CONSIDERING THE INDEX FUND VOTING PROCESS

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2022

                                       U.S. Senate,
          Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met at 10 a.m., via Webex and in room 538, 
Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Sherrod Brown, Chairman of 
the Committee, presiding.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SHERROD BROWN

    Chairman Brown. The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, 
and Urban Affairs will come to order. Today's hearing, as 
others have been, is a hybrid format. Our witnesses are in 
person. Members have the option to appear in person or 
virtually.
    My colleagues and I often say the U.S. markets are the envy 
of the world. Our strong and diverse economy and the rule of 
law benefit families and workers saving for the future. The 
breadth of our markets allows many workers to plan for the long 
term and to take advantage of low-cost, diversified investment 
funds.
    Whether investing for retirement or for college tuition, 
low-fee, broad-based index funds have been an essential 
resource for millions of families. That has become more 
important over the last few decades, as corporations have cut 
or eliminated pension plans, and fewer and fewer workers have a 
union to fight for their retirement security.
    For all the benefits index funds provide, they draw 
criticism for everything from being Marxist, to promoting anti-
competitive business behavior, to being too active in the 
affairs of the companies they own, or too passive in the 
affairs of the companies they own.
    Many academics, including our witnesses today, have 
considered aspects of these questions. We will hear from our 
colleague, Senator Sullivan, who recently introduced 
legislation that addresses his concerns. To be sure, there are 
important questions, given how important index funds are for 
pensions and retirement accounts.
    Today's hearing considers how index funds vote on company 
shares, and whether fund investors should be able to vote on 
the shares held and managed by the fund adviser. In some ways 
this issue boils down to one question--who should exercise the 
market share that index funds have gained?
    The law professors testifying today can tell us how 
corporate and securities law grants power to the fund directors 
and fund managers. Critics say that puts too much power in the 
hands of too few people at the largest fund companies.
    Some skeptics say that fund companies have too much 
influence over corporate America to pursue activist social 
policies. Other critics say fund companies should be doing more 
to hold public companies accountable.
    We know index funds are long-term investors that think 
about long-term results. This debate, to me, is about how we 
can hold corporate executives accountable and make sure they 
are thinking about long-term value of their companies. It means 
putting at the center the workers and communities that make 
those companies work, not just the next quarter's profits. It 
is just common sense.
    Sometimes the long-term success of a company means voting 
in favor of policies that consider climate risk or workplace 
diversity or human capital management. And now, all of a 
sudden, there are people who do not want index fund managers to 
vote.
    I am afraid that is what would happen under Senator 
Sullivan's bill.
    As we will hear, the INDEX Act strives to achieve democracy 
for fund investors. It starts by singling out index funds, 
taking aim at the biggest firms, but potentially capturing even 
smaller fund companies. The bill says fund managers cannot vote 
company shares unless they get direction from the fund 
investors. It is an idea that sounds democratic, but does not 
consider the cost or complexity or the sheer number of votes 
involved.
    For popular, widely held index funds, that could mean 
reaching out to hundreds of thousands of clients, about tens of 
thousands of corporate votes each year. Industry data tells us 
that savers who own stock on their own, not through any kind of 
fund, vote only 30 percent of the time.
    It is hard to imagine that someone who specifically picked 
a professional to invest their money for them would want to 
become an expert in corporate proxy voting and be forced to 
keep track of hundreds of corporate meetings.
    It is an obvious problem, so the INDEX Act solves for it by 
telling fund managers they do not have to vote, even though 
current law requires them to.
    The act would then leave Americans whose money is invested 
in these index funds with two bad outcomes, either to have no 
voice, because the bill protects fund managers when they do not 
want to ask for directions on voting, or to be inundated with 
votes on thousands of corporate issues.
    To complicate things further, the INDEX Act could give more 
power to short-term investors or large foreign investors. 
Smaller companies could be worse off because the bill would 
make it more expensive and time-consuming, a Federal mandate of 
sorts, to reach out to stockholders.
    Index funds are targeted in part because of their success. 
But if we are really trying to improve transparency and 
accountability for fund managers and for public company 
management, it is important to consider potential reforms in 
this area without undermining the clear benefits index funds 
provide, that is low-cost access to diversified savings and 
investments.
    The SEC is working to improve the process of corporate 
voting and increase transparency, and market participants are 
developing technology solutions to improve the voting process.
    The current system, of course, is far from perfect, but 
moving to a system that would suppress voting or potentially 
give more influence to short-term interests is not the answer 
either.
    I look forward to hearing the testimony today from the two 
professors and from our colleague, Senator Sullivan. We will 
hear some criticism, but also some solutions. I think it is 
important to start this conversation.
    Ranking Member Toomey.

         OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PATRICK J. TOOMEY

    Senator Toomey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this 
important hearing.
    You know, over the last several decades there has been an 
amazing democratization of the American capital markets. Today, 
retail investors have access to investment products more easily 
and at lower costs than ever before. They have zero-commission 
trading, narrower bid-offer spreads, all kinds of convenient 
and user-friendly interfaces. Retail investors have access to 
countless low-cost, or even zero expense, passive index funds 
and ETFs. And it turns out, investors particularly like low-
cost, diversified funds that track an index like the S&P 500.
    At the end of 2021, index funds held $12.5 trillion in 
assets. Index funds have been a tremendous boon for retirement 
savings. However, their tremendous growth presents a problem.
    A retail investor who buys an index fund technically does 
not own the stocks in the fund. The fund owns the stocks and 
the fund's manager can decide to vote them. That gives the 
managers enormous influence over companies, even though they 
are voting shares purchased with other people's money.
    This would be a problem even if this voting power were 
dispersed. But it is not dispersed. The stocks held by index 
funds are heavily concentrated with very few large asset 
managers, making these entities disproportionately influential 
with every large public company in America.
    Collectively, BlackRock, State Street, and Vanguard are the 
largest voting blocks in nearly 90 percent of S&P 500 
companies. They derive much of their voting power from ordinary 
Americans who buy index funds.
    Even though this is not the managers' money, and they are 
supposed to be investing this money passively, they are 
nonetheless voting these shares. I would like to highlight two 
problems that arise from this consolidation of corporate voting 
power.
    First, some asset managers are using their voting power to 
advance their own political agendas. They are voting on 
shareholder proposals and board nominees, and by virtue of this 
power, they can apply pressure over companies even outside of 
formal votes.
    For example, last year, BlackRock, Vanguard, and State 
Street all backed the effort of Engine No. 1, a small hedge 
fund owning just 0.02 percent of Exxon's voting shares, to 
install on the board of Exxon, America's largest energy 
company, directors who are sympathetic to the fund's global 
warming activism.
    Engine No. 1's effort to install board members who want to 
fundamentally remake a giant oil company succeeded only because 
the Big Three agreed. Does anyone seriously believe that all of 
the Big Three's investor clients actually want Exxon to 
transition away from the very business that has made it a 
remarkable success?
    There are plenty of actively managed funds that investors 
can choose, that will pursue the reforms, if those are the 
things investors see fit. But passively managed funds are not 
supposed to impose a strategic vision or agenda on firms. They 
are supposed to neutrally follow the market.
    Second, as I have noted, these asset managers are voting 
shares purchased with other people's money, not their own. 
Asset managers should not be using their clients' voting power 
to pursue the political agenda of their CEOs or exercise 
control over corporations.
    Investors select index funds to track the market, not to 
have the big asset managers change the market based on their 
political views.
    Congress needs to address the problems of the largest asset 
managers voting other people's shares and their consolidation 
of corporate voting power. In my view, the solution is to 
return voting power to the true investors in a company, the 
people who put their own money at risk.
    Senator Dan Sullivan has introduced legislation, the INDEX 
Act, to do just that. I am proud to cosponsor it and delighted 
he is here today to discuss it.
    The INDEX Act requires any asset manager of a passive index 
fund with more than 1 percent of a company's voting shares to 
vote those shares in accordance with the instructions of the 
fund's investors, not at the discretion of the asset manager. 
Or they could choose to not vote at all.
    This means such asset managers, including for index funds 
offered under 401(k) plans, ERISA plans, and the Thrift Savings 
Plan for Federal workers and retirees, could no longer use and 
abuse the voting power of their index fund investors to advance 
their own agendas.
    Importantly, the INDEX Act recognizes the reality that 
index fund investors may want some guidance in deciding how to 
vote their shares, since there could be a large number of votes 
to cast. Researching and deciding on each of those votes 
individually is not realistic for most average investors.
    That is why the INDEX Act requires asset managers to permit 
third-party vote recommendations on their platforms so that 
investors can consult these recommendations. And asset managers 
that provide third-party recommendations must do so on a non-
discriminatory basis that allows investors to consult a broad 
diversity of views.
    To make the voting process simpler and more efficient for 
index investors, the INDEX Act would allow recommendations to 
take the form of general voting instructions given in advance. 
In other words, an investor could vote according to those 
general instructions and not on a case-by-case basis.
    I look forward to hearing from today's witnesses. In my 
view, further democratizing investing and diminishing the 
consolidation of corporate voting power are objectives that 
members of both parties can, and should, get behind. I hope 
that today's discussion will help us build bipartisan support 
for legislation that will achieve these important objectives.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Toomey.
    It is my pleasure to introduce my colleague from Cleveland. 
Senator Dan Sullivan is in his second term in the Senate, 
representing far-away Alaska. He will discuss his bill, the 
Investor Democracy is Expected Act, the INDEX Act, which 
addresses how index fund managers conduct proxy voting.
    Senator Sullivan, you are recognized. Thanks for joining 
us.

          STATEMENT OF SENATOR DAN SULLIVAN OF ALASKA

    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I sincerely 
appreciate the opportunity to testify here, and thank you for 
holding this important hearing on this important issue. I want 
to thank Ranking Member Toomey, in particular, for his 
leadership and work with my team on the bill that has already 
been described, Investor Democracy is Expected Act, or the 
INDEX Act.
    And I want to thank other members of the Committee-- there 
are several here--who are also co-sponsors of this bill.
    Mr. Chairman, I will be frank with you. You and I have 
talked about it. The impetus for this legislation was due to my 
ongoing frustrations with many of America's largest banks and 
insurance companies that undertook policies to start black-
balling oil and gas investment development in Alaska, and in my 
view, black-balling the proud American workers who do this very 
necessary work for our country--we need energy--while at the 
same time these financial institutions--banks and insurance 
companies--were eagerly and continue to eagerly do business 
with Communist China. Black-balling American energy workers, no 
problem with investing in Chinese Communist activities.
    Why are they doing this? Why were they doing this? Well, I 
found out these financial institutions do this, in part, 
because of pressure from their largest shareholders, he Big 
Three investment advisors and their index funds.
    In time, my Alaska-centric frustration uncovered a much 
larger concern, that many of you have already described today, 
about the sheer power that is consolidated among the three 
firms that were already mentioned, and the massive distortion 
in our public market that it creates.
    Here again are the astonish numbers, that were already 
mentioned by Senator Toomey, with regard to BlackRock, 
Vanguard, and State Street. They manage around $20 trillion in 
combined assets, are the largest owner shareholder in around 90 
percent of the S&P 500, and cast nearly one- quarter of all 
votes at annual meetings for public companies in America. These 
numbers were even larger before the recent market correction.
    In many ways, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, this is a 
success story. Investors are benefiting from greater 
diversification and lower fees. However, there have been 
unintended consequences, especially the unprecedented 
consolidation of ownership and voting power of these three 
firms.
    These companies wield this market dominance through behind-
the-scenes engagements with company management and they can 
steer our public market toward policies that they or others 
prefer, bypassing the political accountability of our 
legislative process.
    This should concern all of us, regardless of political 
party. Some may like, or even applaud, the positions these 
entities currently advocate for, but as we have all seen, 
leadership at these kinds of firms can change. Just look at the 
ongoing Twitter saga right now.
    At its core, the INDEX Act is politically and policy 
neutral, focused instead on the very real and unprecedented 
power amassed by the Big Three investment advisors. That should 
be a concern of us all. And I know this is becoming a concern 
on both sides of the aisle. I have had discussions with many of 
my Democrat and Republican colleagues. In fact, just a few 
months ago Senator Bernie Sanders held a Budget Committee 
hearing on these same issues.
    In many ways, it is the next logical step in Dodd-Frank. 
Before it became law, broker dealers were allowed to vote 
shares held in street name even though the beneficial owner of 
the shares were the clients.
    The bill simply requires that investment advisors of 
passively managed funds vote proxies in accordance with the 
instruction of fund investors, the American people, and not at 
the discretion of the adviser. It would return the voting power 
back to the beneficial owners of the shares, not the index fund 
managers. In many ways it is a logical next step that was 
undertaken in Dodd-Frank. When broker-dealers used to be 
allowed to vote shares they held in street name, the beneficial 
owner was not allowed to vote those shares. That was changed by 
Dodd-Frank.
    Mr. Chairman, you mentioned already some of the 
complexities, but Senator Toomey has also mentioned some of the 
ways in which these complexities of implementation could be 
addressed.
    The INDEX Act would accomplish important goals. It would 
neutralize the massive power that the largest investment 
advisers have amassed and it would empower real beneficial 
owner of these shares. It would foster a healthier, more 
competitive, and democratic corporate governance system, which 
is what we should want, and certainly what the American people 
expect.
    I will close with a quote from Jack Bogle, the founder of 
Vanguard, and the father of the index fund, who voiced a 
warning before his passing in 2019. He said, quote, ``If 
historical trends continue, a handful of giant institutional 
investors will 1 day hold voting control of virtually every 
large U.S. corporation. Public policy cannot ignore this 
growing dominance,'' unquote.
    Mr. Chairman, this day is upon us. This prophetic warning 
has proven itself out, and we need to act in a bipartisan 
manner on this important issue.
    I look forward to the rest of the hearing today and working 
with all of you on this issue, and I would encourage all of my 
colleagues to consider the INDEX Act as a bipartisan solution.
    Thank you again to the Chairman, Ranking Member Toomey, for 
the opportunity to testify today.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. Thank you very 
much for joining us.
    The Chair calls up two witnesses today, Professor John 
Coates IV. He is the John F. Cogan, Jr., Professor of Law and 
Economics at Harvard Law School. In 2021, Professor Coates 
served as Acting Director for the Division of Corporate Finance 
and as General Counsel for the SEC. He previously served as 
Chair of the Investor as Owner Subcommittee of the Investor 
Advisory Committee of the SEC.
    Professor Caleb Griffin is Assistant Professor of Law at 
the University of Arkansas Law School. His research focuses on 
corporate law and corporate governance with a particular focus 
on the role large asset managers play in the governance 
ecosystem. He served as a board member at Citizen Shareholder 
International, as Chair of the Stakeholder Engagement 
Subcommittee at the American Bar Association. Thank you for 
joining us. Professor Griffin is a remote witness.
    Professor Coates, if you would begin your testimony. Thank 
you for joining us.

 STATEMENT OF JOHN C. COATES IV, JOHN F. COGAN, JR., PROFESSOR 
            OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL

    Mr. Coates. Thank you, Chair Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, 
Members, for the invitation. The topic today, index fund 
voting, is quite an important challenge. Index fund success, on 
behalf of Wall Street and Main Street, has been so dramatic 
that they have, in fact, created legitimacy and accountability 
gaps.
    As I have thought about this set of issues for many years 
now, and I have written about it, however, I have come 
increasing to the view that you should not really think of 
there being a problem to be solved but rather a set of 
tradeoffs, a dilemma, that has to be managed as best we can.
    And what I mean by that is, has already been said, index 
funds have provided and continue to provide enormous benefits 
to American investors. They do it through low fees, low-fee 
diversification, competitive pressure on other funds who have 
had to lower their fees in response to the success of index 
funds, and something that I think is directly connected here, 
an additional benefit of index funds is that they require 
almost no monitoring by the people who put their money in them. 
They know what they are getting because there is an index. They 
do not have to pay attention and use their time, which is, for 
most Americans, better spent in their day jobs and managing 
their children and doing other things, and tracking what their 
managers are doing.
    And that is different between index funds and other ways to 
invest. Even an active fund with a lot of professionals in it, 
they tend to turn over, and so you kind of have to keep track 
of an active fund to see whether they are continuing to do well 
for you, as they might have in the past.
    So index funds provide all these benefits and, therefore, 
for my sake, even though I agree the challenges are real, the 
most important principle to bring to bear as you think about 
legislative interventions is let us first do no harm. Let us 
make sure that we are not going to dramatically impede the 
ability of index funds to do what they have been doing.
    Unfortunately, I believe the bill, while well intentioned 
and an intuitive response to the challenges of governance, 
will, in fact, do harm and achieve relatively little benefit to 
offset that, even if your goal is for individuals to have more 
influence over how their shares are voted.
    The cost of a pass-through will be large. As has been 
adequately, more than adequately, better than I can, stated by 
Chair Brown. Thousands of companies, thousands of votes, 
hundreds of thousands of investors. Data on existing individual 
participation suggests not likely to be used by many, and yet 
the costs will be imposed on everyone. Mutual funds--these are 
mutual funds, which means costs are mutual. So you might have 
some investors who would use these rights. My prediction is 
most would not. And the ones who do not would still have to 
bear the costs of the system put into place. That would make 
index funds less attractive and overall impede the ability of 
them to keep doing what they have been doing well.
    There is a fallback, as mentioned, mirror voting or not 
voting, built into the bill, and I think actually this would be 
even worse for almost everyone, including people represented by 
the business roundtable or management generally. It would 
increase unpredictability in outcomes because it would 
effectively shift voting power from the index fund to other 
institutions, such as proxy advisors or activist hedge funds or 
management, depending on relative voting power leading up to a 
proxy fight that could change on a daily basis. And I have 
talked to proxy solicitors about this, who do this for a 
living. They think it would dramatically increase the 
unpredictability of voting, precisely when it is the most 
likely to be contested.
    The bottom line is I think the goals here are good, but the 
remedy needs to be more cautious, more conservative, if I can 
use that word in an unpolitical way, more moderate, and more 
experimental. So better transparency--I am all in favor of 
that. Funds could do more to tell their shareholders about what 
they are doing.
    Better conflict management. Currently conflict rules are in 
place at the fund level. They could be put in at the complex 
level.
    And I do agree they should be encouraged and given 
authority to take instruction from their investors. That, 
however, I think, is going to take pilots and experimentation 
to make sure it is done in a cost-effective way.
    And so with that I will stop. I have other comments but I 
will stop there.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Mr. Coates.
    Professor Griffin, you are recognized, I assume from 
Arkansas.

    STATEMENT OF CALEB GRIFFIN, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF LAW, 
              UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS SCHOOL OF LAW

    Mr. Griffin. Yes. Thank you, Chairman Brown, Ranking Member 
Toomey, and Members of the Committee. I am privileged to 
testify.
    I wanted to make four key points in my testimony today. 
First, we have a corporate governance system that is based, in 
large part, on empty voting, which distorts incentives.
    Second, the best interest standard which currently governs 
index fund voting is insufficient.
    Third, pass-through voting solves the empty voting problem 
and restores agency to investors.
    And fourth, pass-through voting is the lowest cost approach 
that will meaningfully address this problem.
    As has been discussed, index funds have assumed a new and 
unprecedented role as the most influential players in corporate 
governance. Particularly Vanguard, BlackRock, and State Street, 
known as the Big Three, play a pivotal role. And we mentioned 
that they cast about a quarter of the votes at S&P 500 
companies. That is expected to grow to roughly 34 percent by 
2028, and to over 40 percent in the following decade. So this 
rise shows no signs of slowing down.
    One of the great ironies of index funds is that while these 
fund managers have become the most powerful governance actors 
in the world, their investors are essentially powerless. It is 
the fund managers rather than their investors who wield the 
power to cast these votes.
    And I view the present situation as an accident. If, given 
the opportunity, no one would have designed a governance system 
controlled by empty voting or a party has control rights but 
lacks economic ownership. We need to explicitly recognize the 
costs of empty voting, when we eliminated empty voting by 
brokers more than a decade ago. And empty owners have interests 
that are often poorly aligned with those of true owners, and 
they are much more vulnerable to conflicts of interest. And yet 
today we find ourselves facing a situation where virtually all 
public companies will be controlled by empty voting.
    There is essentially only one substantive legal constraint 
that governs index fund voting, and that is index fund managers 
are required to vote in the best interests of their investors. 
And this constraint is surprisingly weak. To my knowledge, of 
the millions of votes cast by all index funds, not a single 
vote has been held to violate the standard.
    As a result, I believe index funds vote in a way that may 
be totally untethered from their investors' interests. I say 
maybe because we simply do not know. Index funds are not 
currently required to solicit any form of proxy voting input 
from their investors, and for the most part they do not make a 
meaningful effort to do so voluntarily. They may be guessing in 
good faith about their investors' interests, or they may be 
voting in their own self-interested, but I view either option 
as much less desirable than simply getting input from 
investors.
    So what should we do? I believe that the best solution to 
the current problem, where we have virtually powerless index 
investors and an enormous, concentrated power in the hands of 
index fund management, is to transfer some of that power to 
individual investors. I believe that there are two primary ways 
that we could do so.
    The first is to allow individual investors to set their own 
voting instructions. In order to streamline this process, I 
favor what I call categorical pass-through voting, where 
investors are able to give semi-specific instructions on common 
categories of topics. For example, investors would be able to 
instruct management to vote yes or vote no on all lobbying 
disclosures every time that type of proposal came up at a 
portfolio company. So one decision is applied many times.
    The second approach I call vote outsourcing or indirect 
democracy, and it is where investors could instruct management 
to vote their shares in alignment with a third- party 
representative. These may be institutional players, such as 
management or even the index fund managers themselves, or they 
may be third parties such as nonprofit organizations. So that 
would be only a single decision made on the part of the 
investors, saying who do I want to vote on my behalf, as 
opposed to being forced into saying only my given index fund 
will have my vote.
    I believe that pass-through voting is the lowest-cost 
approach that actually solves the problem. I think some 
evidence of this fact is the fact that a number of parties, 
including BlackRock, are already developing the technology to 
institute pass-through voting preemptively, and I think that 
this speaks to the affordability and the relative desirability 
of this approach, even from the perspective of the fund 
managers.
    I believe that other solutions, including antitrust 
remedies, like breaking up the Big Three or capping fund 
complexes at a certain size, will be far more costly. I think 
pass-through voting preserves the economies of scale of the Big 
Three while addressing the root of the problem, that is 
concentrated voting power in the hands of a small, 
unaccountable group.
    I see I am out of time. Thank you.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Professor Griffin.
    Let us start with you, Professor Coates. The idea of 
passing through voting rights to fund investors sounds 
appealing, as you have pointed out, but it is more complicated 
than it seems. You talked about a process to be managed.
    Describe, if you would, the logistical and practical 
concerns with trying to manage that kind of process.
    Mr. Coates. Sure. I will do my best to sketch a few of the 
challenges. It is actually going to be far more complicated 
than I can capture. The first thing to note is the scale of 
investment at the fund level. We are talking hundreds of 
thousands of investors who would have to be asked for 
instructions.
    Second, many of those investors are funds. They are other 
institutions. So if you really wanted to achieve, as the bill 
tries to, to push it all the way out to individuals, we are not 
talking about one pass-through. We are talking about two, 
three, four layers of funds. This is, you know, you might think 
a little counterintuitive, but the way our market works there 
are layers upon layers of institutions at work. Employee 
benefit plans sit on top of funds, which in turn invest in 
index funds. So that is a second kind of challenge.
    A third kind of challenge is put-aside funds. A lot of the 
individual investment in funds is through what are called 
omnibus accounts, brokerage accounts that aggregate individuals 
and purposefully shield from the fund the identity of the 
actual individuals, for competitive reasons. So in order for 
those individuals to instruct, the fund would have to provide 
information to the brokerage firm and they then would have to 
pass it through, reaggregate, pass it back down.
    Now there is a lot more that could be said to unpack the 
complexity here. The reason I am fairly confident this would be 
costly, time-consuming, and error-prone is because our current 
system of voting at the corporate level, the basic voting that 
this is all going to be a part of, is still a work in progress.
    This year alone, as I have extended more notes in my 
written testimony, is the first time that the major players in 
the basic voting system are trying to provide confirmations 
back to investors about whether their voting instructions have 
been followed. This is for people who have chosen to directly 
invest. This is the first time in history they are going to be 
able, possibly, to confirm their instructions have been carried 
out, and the reason is the system is very complicated, even at 
that level.
    We are adding one or two orders of magnitude of complexity 
on top of that with the way the bill approaches this.
    So I think it is just not workable, even if you imagine 
some large number of the fund investors wanting to take on the 
challenge of providing instructions.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Professor Coates.
    Professor Griffin, your testimony suggests the INDEX Act 
could allow for a variety of options to get input from fund 
investors. Some fund managers you suggest are working toward 
this. Do these solutions have potential, in your mind?
    Mr. Griffin. Thank you, Chairman. I think they do have 
potential. I think that passing through several thousand votes 
for an individual would be, in many cases, unmanageable, but I 
think outsourcing the voting process, or sort of decoupling 
that and saying can use third-party experts, use of my chosen 
third party as opposed to sort of being locked into a single, 
whoever you happen to invest with. I think that actually sort 
of reduces the separation of ownership control from a corporate 
law perspective, and I think reduces the harm from empty 
voting.
    And I think that there are certainly some costs here. It is 
not free. But I think it is important to view these costs in 
context. I think we need to think about not just the costs of 
facilitating pass-through voting, which I think are very 
manageable, and I think that they are expenses that funds have 
begun to undertake voluntarily--BlackRock currently offers it 
to about 40 percent of its index clients, primarily 
institutions--but to say that scaling that up is in no way 
possible I think is a little bit unrealistic, given that they 
are building it out, have built it out for institutions and 
are, in my discussions with them, currently in the process of 
building it out for retail clients.
    I also think that the costs of having empty voting dominate 
corporate governance for the economy at large could be very 
serious. Misaligned incentives can lead to very significant 
costs. Some academic fear monopoly effects. The common 
ownership literature is still pretty nascent, and I am not an 
antitrust scholar, but essentially they say it could lead to 
price increases for consumers. One academic, Zohar Goshen, at 
Columbia, even says essentially this type of governance 
philosophy espoused by the Big Three is responsible for decades 
of wage stagnation for employees.
    And so I think when you are comparing the cost of a survey 
and voting like investors say, I think it is clear that pass-
through voting is a feasible option.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you. I have run out of time, but 
Professor Coates, I would like you to respond in writing to 
this. Your testimony suggests some potential improvements to 
the current process. As the former Chief Counsel at SEC you 
have great insight to this. If you would outline some steps 
that SEC and fund companies could take to make sure public 
companies and fund managers are more accountable and more 
transparent, if you would put that in writing to us. Thank you.
    Mr. Griffin. I will do that.
    Chairman Brown. Senator Toomey.
    Senator Toomey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Professor Griffin, 
let me just start with you here.
    You know, it is easy to see the enormous influence that the 
Big Three have when it comes to casting a proxy vote when they 
control a plurality of the votes. But, in fact, that dynamic 
alone is only the beginning of the kind of influence they wield 
if you, as one of three individuals, can effectively determine 
who sits on the board of directors of a company. Does that not 
give you enormous influence over pretty much anything you 
choose to exercise influence over, because there is this 
implicit backing of your request in the form of changing the 
composition of the board. Could you comment on that, Professor 
Griffin?
    Mr. Griffin. Thank you, Senator. Absolutely. I think that 
the ultimate source of their power is the voting right, as you 
mentioned, but it is only the beginning. So one way they 
exercise their power is through, as you mentioned, being able 
to elect directors, but also through sort of standard-setting 
process, and this makes them almost a regulatory body, in a 
sense, without sort of that accountability that we expect.
    So when they announce their governance positions, or when 
Larry Fink writes his annual shareholder letter, there are 
academic studies that demonstrate these positions are very 
quickly and effectively adopted by a number of companies. They 
file 8-Ks that have not just the same positions but sometimes 
the exact same language as Larry Fink's letter.
    And so to Professor Coates' point earlier about 
predictability, I agree that there may be a reduction in 
predictability, but that predictability, the source of that 
current predictability is that companies are essentially doing 
what they are told by their largest shareholders. And I think 
that may be less beneficial than we might assume because it 
creates a corporate governance mono-culture. It is sort of a 
one size fits all for the governance, per se. Everybody should 
act in such-and-such a way, and these asset managers have 
decided it and decreed it. And so it is predictable, but I 
think it is detrimental.
    Senator Toomey. So now let us go to the heart of what I 
think is Mr. Coates' criticism, and I do not mean to speak for 
you, sir, but it is the way it sounded to me, and that is the 
challenge and complexity and cost of implementation. We all 
realize that, of course, over the course of a broad- based 
index you have many hundreds, maybe even in some cases 
thousands, of companies, and the total number of votes is an 
enormous number.
    But as you, Senator Sullivan and I and others worked on a 
variety of ways to deal with that complexity. BlackRock seems 
to think that this is manageable. In fact, they have already 
initiated this process.
    Could you comment, Professor Griffin, on the mechanisms 
that we have talked about to try to address the inherent 
complexity and the sheer scale of this challenge?
    Mr. Griffin. Absolutely. So first we have the 1 percent cap 
which says, look, this is only going to apply to the very 
largest funds, and I think that helps to balance this proposal 
specifically only on the funds that could bear the costs, and I 
think that with respect to whether it is feasible to vote this 
many questions on this many companies.
    I think the two methods that we outlined provide these 
types of voting instructions, whether they are categorical of 
every time you see such-and-such issue, do this, vote this way, 
vote yes or vote no. Every time you see a lobbying disclosure, 
vote yes to disclose or vote no to not disclose it, either way. 
And then the company would apply that, at a blanket level, at 
all, maybe 500 firms, let's say, in the portfolio.
    The second one I think is even simpler and requires only 
one decision from an investor, say I want my votes to be voted 
according to this person. And so they specify the party. It 
could still be the fund. Some people really like the way their 
fund votes, and that is totally fine. Under this system they 
would be able to designate them as the person to follow in the 
voting process, to instruct, say, according to their 
recommendations.
    But I think under the bill it would provide a neutral 
platform for third-party recommendations, and so that is one of 
the requirements in this bill is to say if you do provide 
voting recommendations you have to present it from third 
parties on a neutral basis. And so I think that could actually 
open up a lot of competition for differing perspectives to 
enter, and a diversity of views in the proxy voting space, and 
that would be beneficial.
    Senator Toomey. Thanks very much. I will yield. My time is 
about to run out. But I would just point out that for people 
who think that this system works reasonably well or well 
enough, they could select to continue with the status quo by 
choosing to defer their votes to the asset managers.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Toomey.
    Senator Reed, of Rhode Island, is recognized.
    Senator Reed. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
welcome, gentlemen, witnesses.
    Professor Coates, as you know and as you also indicated in 
your testimony, many investment managers currently engage 
outside proxy advisory firms for guidance. So how would this 
bill affect investment managers' reliance on proxy advisory 
firms?
    Mr. Coates. Well, the pilots that have been alluded to by 
Professor Griffin and Senator Toomey, that BlackRock is 
undertaking, are a good illustration of how to answer your 
question. They are focused on institutional clients. The 
institutional clients who do not invest through index funds 
often rely on firms like ISS and Glass Lewis for voting advice. 
BlackRock's experiment is essentially extending that into the 
index fund space for institutions. I want to emphasize both 
that means they are going to be now not simply following the 
decisions of the index fund managers but they are now relying 
on proxy advisor personnel for their voting.
    This is shifting from one institution to another. I am not 
really sure that that is achieving the goal that is stated for 
the bill.
    I also would note that that is a vastly simpler pilot, 
which is why BlackRock is starting with it, than passing 
through to individuals the same kind of options, which is, in 
fact, why, if you talk to each of the Big Three, they will tell 
you, point black, it is 10, 100, 1,000 more complicated and 
expensive to think about doing it for individuals, even if it 
is just one time a year we want ISS or some other advisor.
    The last thing I would say is it is not true that other 
investors could just preserve the status quo and ignore this 
because the costs will be borne by them, unless you do more 
than is in the bill, which would allow the index fund sponsors 
to charge a fee to those individuals who want to do something 
beyond what is currently done now, on an individual account-
level basis.
    I do not believe that would currently be permitted under 
the '40 Act, and I do not think anything in this bill directly 
addresses that problem. So I do not think actually that could 
be accommodated under the current legislative language.
    So in the end, just to come back to your question, I think 
proxy advisors, who have been the subject of prior hearings and 
conversations between Senator Toomey and me about this, 
suggests that he is not entirely comfortable with the role that 
proxy advisors play. They will get more power as a result of 
this bill.
    Senator Reed. One of the concerns I have, and I think it 
goes to the assumption that we are operating on, is that 
transparency, public companies with a direct connection to 
their real shareholders, is really the model. But what we are 
observing right now is public companies going dark. They want 
to get out from underneath scrutiny and transparency. As a 
result, we have a growing number of unusually significant, in 
terms of financial power, companies that have left the public 
sector and now, lacking all transparency. I do not think it 
helps the markets.
    So would it not be an advantage to have these companies 
reporting some basic information, like their audited 
financials, or if they reach a certain financial level? If it 
is a $2 billion private company that has a lot of impacts in 
our society. Any thoughts on that, Professor?
    Mr. Coates. One thing that index funds have done that has 
not been noted is that because they provide so much capital, 
but it is only one entity, one record-holder who buys the 
shares through an index fund, because it is a fund, the actual 
number of record-holders of listed companies has fallen 
dramatically over the past 20 years. In fact, most of the 
companies that went public in 2021, when I was at the SEC, did 
not go above the threshold requiring them to register with the 
SEC.
    As a result, we currently have a very different reality for 
counting what is a public company than we did when the 
securities laws were first written. And I do think there is 
much to be said for revisiting the thresholds that are built 
into the '34 Act, thinking about them in a different way, not 
simply counting numbers, because index funds make it possible 
for most listed companies to have fewer than 300 shareholders 
and still amass enormous amounts of capital.
    Senator Reed. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Reed.
    Senator Cramer, of North Dakota, is recognized.
    Senator Cramer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for calling this 
meeting, and Ranking Member Toomey and witnesses, thank you.
    I am a cosponsor of the INDEX Act, also a sponsor of 
another similar relating to traditional lending, the Fair 
Access to Banking Act. I am grateful to Senator Sullivan for 
focusing so much on indexes. It is just really, really 
important.
    I wanted to ask you, Professor Griffin, about no-action 
requests. So we see the SEC, we see the granting or denying of 
no-action requests, and first of all, is there a risk of a 
less-than-even handling of no-action with regard to indexes?
    Mr. Griffin. I think, speaking broadly, there has been some 
academic research that suggests it does matter somewhat, which 
SEC staff member receives that no-action request, and so there 
has been some academic research into that issue. And I think 
that maybe is evidence of what you are speaking about, that 
there is sort of personal variability within the SEC, maybe 
diversity of views on what is appropriate and is not.
    I would also note that there has been some recent changes 
as to what can and cannot be excluded. So someone might be 
asking to exclude a proposal from an upcoming meeting and 
requesting an interaction letter on that basis. And I think 
that we have changed some of the policy there and potentially 
disturbed some longstanding positions.
    But I think with respect to index funds, I would not say it 
is particularly a major issue with respect to proxy voting.
    Senator Cramer. Sure. Let me ask you about the role of 
States, because we are seeing red State pushback, as they call 
it. Obviously, not all States are created equal, but every 
State, particularly their State funds, provide a lot. I mean, 
there is a lot. And I think of a State like Texas, for example. 
West Virginia is another one that recently passed State laws 
similar to the INDEX Act. In some cases they might even be more 
aggressive in terms of their own pushback guidance.
    Do you see any concerns about the Federal Government doing 
one thing or States doing their own thing, or what if we do not 
do anything, what could be the outcome or the consequence of 
States taking this on their own and having, if you will, a 
maze?
    Mr. Griffin. Thank you, Senator. I think that it will 
potentially become further politicized at the State level and 
then have sort of a difficult-to-navigate situation for these 
asset managers, and I think that can increase costs as well. So 
certainly it may be the best course of action for the States, 
if their citizens desire it, but I do think that there are 
risks to that approach as well, and the fragmentation that you 
mentioned I think could be detrimental.
    So I think that there is a desirability of a unified 
standard and Federal action on this issue.
    Senator Cramer. I almost never say that, but there are 
situations. There are a couple of places in the Constitution 
where they give the Federal Government some say, and I think 
this might fit into interstate commerce a little bit.
    The one thing I just sort of want to wrap up with, Mr. 
Chairman, and you can certainly comment, Professor Griffin, if 
you would like, has anybody come up with an index like a 
reliable electricity index or reliable, low-cost energy index? 
We pick these very political criteria in the energy sector with 
very little regard for--we talking about long term. We have to 
think of the long-term. Well, 2050 is a long way off, and 2030 
is closer. But 2022 is on us. It is here right now. And 
inflation is not a fantasy. It was not created by Vladimir 
Putin, although he certainly has enhanced it with his behavior, 
but we were heading this way already.
    It just seems to me that if we are going to have indexes 
based on political criteria they ought to be grounded in some 
science, not just somebody's perceived or even real crisis that 
is years off.
    Anyway, no need necessary to comment. It is just my comment 
as we wrap up. Let us be a little more realistic about 
governance. Thank you.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you. Senator Menendez, from New 
Jersey, is recognized.
    Senator Menendez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Under current rules, public companies are not required to 
disclose political spending to shareholders, and as result 
corporate executives can spend investor money on political 
causes without any consideration of shareholder views or the 
company's public commitments.
    Dr. Coates, should shareholders of companies that make 
public pledges expect their company to act in a manner 
consistent with the stated company policy?
    Mr. Coates. Yes.
    Senator Menendez. And we saw, in the wake of the January 
6th insurrection, many public companies pledged to suspend to 
reevaluate political donations to Members of Congress that 
sought to stop the certification of President Biden's victory, 
proving that these donations are a business decision that 
affects the company's reputation and therefore their bottom 
line. However, since then, many of these companies resumed 
their political donations in direct contradiction to their 
public pledges.
    So, Dr. Coates, do you believe that corporate political 
spending is material information that should be disclosed to 
investors?
    Mr. Coates. On average, yes. I am a supporter of the 
DISCLOSE Act and have been since it was first introduced, a 
long time ago, and I am also a fan of getting rid of the 
micromanagement of the SEC, with the budget rider that has 
forbidden the SEC from taking up this topic for the past 10 
years. Clearly, for some companies, their political involvement 
is first order to their strategy, and for them to not even be 
possibly asked by the SEC to make some disclosures related to 
that political strategy to me just seems like an obvious 
mistake, from an investor perspective. It has nothing to do 
with politics per se. It has to do with corporate strategy 
connected to political involvement.
    Senator Menendez. Well, I appreciate that, and I fully 
agree. That is why I have been pushing for years to strengthen 
the SEC's political spending disclosure rule. We have also 
introduced the Shareholder Protection Act, to allow investors 
to more directly influence the political spending of publicly 
traded companies. But enhanced disclosure of relevant 
information like this, in my mind, is another way to empower 
investors.
    The key to empowering investors, in my mind, is a strong 
disclosure regimen that informs consumers and allows them to 
vote with their wallets. When it comes to voting, many 
investment fund managers voluntarily issue proxy voting 
guidelines that outline, for investors, how the fund tends to 
vote proxies as well as general principles that are considered.
    So, Dr. Coates, do you think this type of disclosure is 
useful to investors?
    Mr. Coates. I do, and I think if you think about the 
premises of this bill, as backed by the various co-sponsors, it 
is that individual investors will lean into their rights, as 
economic capital providers, and use them, presumably on an 
informed basis, to make governance choices. The only way they 
can do that, the only way this bill could possibly work, even 
putting aside my worries about cost, would be if they actually 
had full information about what they were voting on.
    And if they cannot get information about what companies are 
doing with their money--because remember, as capital flows down 
to the index funds, which is the focus of this bill, but then 
it flows down to corporations, so it is their money all the way 
down. If you want them to have the ability to reasonably 
exercise governance rights over their capital then you need 
disclosure about how that money is being used, and that 
includes political activity.
    Senator Menendez. Thank you. To me, this type of disclosure 
is exactly what investors need to make informed decisions, 
while still maintaining the accessibility and cost 
effectiveness of index funds. However, it is also important for 
investors to be able to verify that the funds are actually 
voting in line with these principles. How can we make 
disclosures regarding votes that have been taken more 
informative and digestible for investors?
    Mr. Coates. Well, the SEC currently has a rule pending 
that, if adopted, will help. It will improve the detail with 
which funds have to disclose their votes. I am also in favor, 
for the big index funds, the ones that are the focus of this 
bill, to report more frequently than they are currently 
required. Annually is all that is required now. They actually 
do it quarterly, on a self-enforced basis. They choose to do 
that. I think they could do it even more frequently because the 
proxy season lasts for many months.
    And I think having more real-time disclosure and better 
disclosure would be the first place to start. That is how we 
have markets work, rather than having law direct operations of 
companies.
    Senator Menendez. Thank you very much.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Menendez.
    Senator Van Hollen is recognized, from Maryland.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
associate myself with the remarks Senator Menendez made 
regarding the importance of disclosure by the companies for 
shareholder purposes.
    You know, I find the description or title of this bill, 
Investor Democracy Act, to be a little bit upside down, and 
here is why. I have some shares in Vanguard, mutual fund, and I 
choose to make that investment. But, Professor Coates, I could, 
if I wanted, choose to directly invest in the underlying 
companies, right?
    Mr. Coates. Yes, you could.
    Senator Van Hollen. And at least in return, Vanguard has a 
duty to look out for my, quote, ``best interests.'' Is that 
right?
    Mr. Coates. That is right.
    Senator Van Hollen. All right. Now as I read this bill, 
because of the costs that this bill may impose on a money 
manager--Vanguard--they can opt out entirely. Is that right?
    Mr. Coates. Yes. They would be permitted to simply not vote 
at all.
    Senator Van Hollen. Right. And so I do not know how that 
advances the cause of democracy if now Vanguard, because of 
additional costs, says, ``Well, I am going to opt out,'' then 
nobody is looking out for my, quote, ``best interests.'' Is 
that not correct?
    Mr. Coates. That is correct. It would effectively, I think, 
lead to less voting by the longest-term investment funds that 
there are.
    Senator Van Hollen. Right, and that means more relative 
voting by hedge funds and other short-term investors, right?
    Mr. Coates. Yes. This bill would boost the power of Carl 
Icahn or Bill Ackman, or pick your other favorite hedge fund 
activist, to come in and vote.
    Senator Van Hollen. I think that is exactly what it will 
do. And, you know, in my experience, I do not have any separate 
stock holdings right now, but I had some small holdings. I get 
these statements in the mail. I never have time to fill them 
out and vote my few shares that I had. And that is what would 
result, in my view, from this.
    As I think has already been discussed, some of the bigger--
I think BlackRock has now made provisions for some of the 
larger institutional investors. I think that is important. But 
for retail investors, in my view, this is going to have exactly 
the result that you are predicting, which is to essentially 
have us not exercising our votes, even through a proxy like 
Vanguard, and that just empowers the others in the system.
    Can you talk a little bit more about the costs that are 
imposed? Because one of the reasons people invest in these 
index funds is because they are low cost. And so if they are 
going to have to increase their costs, I am not going to want 
to put any of my investments there. And so that will be an 
incentive for them to exercise the safe harbor rule.
    So can you talk a little bit more about the costs that this 
would impose?
    Mr. Coates. Sure. One of the things that I have done in the 
past 20 years is first for the SEC and then for the Department 
of Justice I have played a role in looking at how the back-
office functions of different investment managers function. And 
at the SEC, a long time ago, in 2002, I helped distribute money 
under a fair fund, back to the investors of mutual funds, large 
ones.
    It is an incredibly complex process simply to even identify 
who the investors in a mutual fund are. Many of them do not 
know. And the reason they do not know is because brokers bring 
them clients, and the brokers do not want the funds to know who 
their clients are.
    So one of the major costs here would be simply for the 
funds to trace out, through brokers and other kinds of 
intermediaries, who are your investors, to get instructions 
from. The bill does not allow them to do in a differential way. 
It is all or nothing. And so I really believe, actually, when 
you put up the costs, the fund advisors will say, ``Better we 
do not do this at all for retail.''
    I encourage--let me just go back to the vein--I think 
actually there is something here, but it is going to take 
experimentation and pilots. It is going to take SEC oversight. 
It is going to take leaning in to figuring out what could be 
cost effective. The kinds of things that Professor Griffin 
sketches, I think, are nice ideas, but to make them really work 
you are going to need some experimentation.
    Senator Van Hollen. So under your reading of the bill would 
it allow an investor in Vanguard to simply check a box and say, 
``I want to opt out of this, Vanguard. You have got my proxy''?
    Mr. Coates. So the bill has some ambiguities to it, which 
is itself a separate issue that, of course, could be cleaned 
up. I do not think, as it is currently written, Vanguard could 
just provide an opt-in or opt-out option. It asks for pass-
through voting instructions for every fund investor, or none at 
all.
    Senator Van Hollen. So in your reading, as written, it 
would require Vanguard to essentially send me my voting 
material for each of the constituent companies that underlie 
that index fund.
    Mr. Coates. It specially talks about each proxy statement 
for each company that is in the index.
    Senator Van Hollen. So not giving me an option to opt out 
seems to me to be very anti-democratic.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Tillis is online from his office. Senator Tillis, 
from North Carolina.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the 
witnesses for being here today.
    Index funds provide significant economic benefit to retail 
investors. I think we all agree on that. It allows them access 
to low-cost, diversified portfolios that do not require active 
management.
    However, since their creation, the concentration of these 
funds has grown significantly. The share of assets managed by 
the five largest firms rose from 35 percent in 2005, to a 
majority, 54 percent, in 2021, while the share managed by the 
ten largest firms increased from 46 to 66 percent.
    So, Mr. Coates and Mr. Griffin, is it fair to say that the 
concentration of assets under management by a handful of 
institutions is an unintended development that the creators of 
index funds and the ETS did not foresee?
    Mr. Coates. Yes.
    Senator Tillis. I am sorry. I----
    Chairman Brown. Professor Griffin, your answer?
    Mr. Griffin. Yes. Yes, it is.
    Senator Tillis. Now the Big Three--BlackRock, Vanguard, and 
State Street--currently collectively cast an average of 25 
percent of the shareholder votes for the S&P 500 companies. 
This is a significant bloc. However, I have looked at some 
research, and I would like to get your feedback on it, that 
indicates that if the current trends remain, the Big Three 
could control as much as 40 percent of the voting power of the 
S&P 500 companies within two decades. Do you agree or disagree 
with those trend lines, and why, Mr. Coates and Mr. Griffin?
    Mr. Coates. Yes, I believe that the likely share of index 
funds in 10 years will be greater than now, in part because we 
are talking principally about investment decisions by retail, 
ordinary individuals, and they follow guidance and advice that 
is hard to change. So even if we got to a point where index 
funds were no longer the best thing, there would probably be 
some inertia well past that point.
    So I think, actually, index funds are likely to continue to 
grow, and I think that is why the goal of the bill is a good 
one, to look into how most cost-effectively to address the 
accountability problems that their growth has created.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you. Mr. Coates?
    Mr. Griffin. Thank you, Senator. I absolutely agree. I 
think that we are looking at about 34 percent by 2028, which is 
not too far off, and in the next decade after that, by 2038, 
the predictions by Lucian Bebchuk at Harvard are that 
approximately 40 percent ownership. So there is a range of 
values there. Obviously, we cannot predict the future, but the 
trend of indexation shows no signs of slowing down.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you. Mr. Griffin, in the time that we 
have left, a select few institutional investors control an 
outsized portion of voting rights. More and more, I hear from 
companies that these institutions utilize their voting bloc to 
force business decisions onto companies or otherwise coerce 
them.
    Mr. Griffin, should institutional investors be subjected to 
due diligence requirements when backing shareholder proposals?
    Mr. Griffin. I think that could be beneficial, and, you 
know, it sort of speaks to what their duty of care may be in 
this context. And I think that could certainly benefit from 
being fleshed out, to an additional degree, with more due 
diligence.
    Senator Tillis. And similarly, should institutional 
investors be required to disclose their analysis, proving their 
votes were in the best economic interest of their shareholders?
    Mr. Griffin. I think seeing their analysis could be 
beneficial. I think more disclosure is usually beneficial.
    Senator Tillis. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Chair, I am proud to be a cosponsor of the INDEX Act. I 
think it would begin to address the distortion of power in our 
capital markets. This bill would return voting power back to 
the individual investors and foster a competitive marketplace, 
instead of promoting a system where individual investors can 
crowd out everyday investors.
    Mr. Griffin, could you speak a little bit more on the 
merits or any concerns you have with the INDEX Act?
    Mr. Griffin. Certainly. I think that pass-through voting is 
probably the best and lowest-cost option that we are going to 
find here. I think it addresses the root of the problem, which 
is this concentration of voting power in very few hands.
    I think that the fact that many of these funds are 
developing the exact technology that we are looking at in- 
house. I do agree with Professor Coates that pilot programs are 
beneficial. I think BlackRock is effectively doing one right 
now. And so perhaps there is a concern there is sort of a 2-
year window in the bill. Perhaps it may need to be extended to 
3 years, or build in something like that.
    So I think we should be sensitive to those concerns, but I 
think ultimately pass-through voting is exceptional.
    Senator Tillis. OK. Thank you. My time has expired. Mr. 
Griffin and Mr. Coates, I may submit a question for the record. 
I am specifically interested in the duopoly of the proxy 
advisor firms, ISS and Glass Lewis. But out of respect for the 
Chairman I will not ask for an answer now but would like to get 
your opinions on that.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Tillis.
    Senator Daines, from Montana, is recognized.
    Senator Daines. Chairman Brown, thank you. I am very 
pleased we are holding this hearing today on, I think, a very 
important topic. I am very proud to join Senator Sullivan in 
introducing the Investor Democracy is Expected, or the INDEX, 
Act, which, as we discussed, would shift voting power away from 
investment advisors to individual investors who already have 
skin in the game and own the companies that are held in the 
exchange trade of funds that they also own.
    Passive investing through index funds has provided 
tremendous benefits to investors, but woke investment managers 
have created a downside of this style of investing. These asset 
managers, namely BlackRock, State Capital, and Vanguard, are 
using their clients' capital to advocate for viewpoints in the 
boardrooms of corporate America that their own clients largely 
disagree with. This should not be a political issue. This level 
of concentration and power should be concerning to Democrats 
who often talk about the problems with consolidation of power 
in a few hands, and this is exactly what we have in this 
situation.
    Here is an example that has been discussed previously but 
it is worth repeating, is the woke, hostile election directors 
on Exxon's board in 2021. Engine No. 1--this is an activist, 
environment, climate investment firm-- successfully leveraged a 
0.02 percent investment to oust three Exxon board members in 
favor of climate activist board nominees. This happened with 
the support of BlackRock and Vanguard, Exxon's two largest 
shareholders.
    Following its victory in this proxy battle, Engine No. 1 
pressured Exxon to reduce its oil production in October of 
2021. They put out a statement celebrating the fact that Exxon 
had reduced its oil and gas production as a result of a 
takeover of three members of the board.
    Fast forward to today. President Biden is begging oil 
companies, including those in Venezuela and the Middle East, to 
drill more to alleviate the energy crisis we are seeing both 
here and in Europe.
    This politicization of our financial system is part of the 
reason I am planning to introduce a bill to codify a 2020 
Department of Labor rule which would require plan fiduciaries 
in retirement plans to put financial factors above all other 
considerations when making investment decisions. This bill will 
simply clarify what nearly all investors believe is already 
happening, and that is that financial decisions on their behalf 
are being made to make them money, not to further a particular 
policy or political agency.
    Turning to my questions. Professor Griffin, I have heard 
some argue that it would be difficult to allow individual 
investors to vote their own shares held in index funds. Would 
you agree with that assessment?
    Mr. Griffin. No, I would not, and I think there are a 
number of tools to effectively involve individual investors.
    Senator Daines. Do you think perhaps the issue might be 
that allowing shareholders to participate in the proxy process 
might wrest away control of the outcomes from woke asset 
managers and corporations?
    Mr. Griffin. I think, you know, it is not clear. I wish I 
knew exactly what sort of was in the mind of BlackRock with 
respect to why it exercises voting power the way it does. Some 
people view it as a pure compliance cost that they would sort 
of readily hand off if they could. Some people view it as a way 
to market what are essentially undifferentiated, commoditized 
products. One index fund has very little difference from 
another. So in that regard that may be what you are speaking 
to.
    Senator Daines. So what are your thoughts when you saw what 
happened at Exxon--0.02 investment ousted three Exxon board 
members? I think if I am investing in an energy company like 
Exxon, I am assuming they are trying to find ways to increase 
oil and gas production, not decrease it. What do you think 
about what happened there, where you had some climate activist 
board members then suddenly take over part of Exxon?
    Mr. Griffin. Well, I think it illustrates the power of the 
Big Three. Essentially, you have, as you mentioned, a very 
small owner, a very small hedge fund, with pretty minuscule 
ownership, traditionally no say. But they are almost lobbying 
these large index funds, particularly the Big Three, and the 
Big Three are almost sitting there with a thumb and saying, you 
know, vote up or vote down, and say they have the ultimate 
decisional power. They are sort of the arbiters of corporate 
law controversies.
    And I think that is a dangerous situation, and I do not 
think it is good corporate governance.
    Senator Daines. All right. Chairman, thank you.
    Chairman Brown. Thank you very much, Senator Daines.
    To the two professors, thank you, Professor Coates, thank 
you, Professor Griffin. Thank you for testifying today.
    For Senators who wish to submit questions for the hearing 
record those questions are due 1 week from today, on Tuesday, 
June 21st. To the witnesses, please submit your responses to 
questions for the record within 45 days from the day you 
receive them.
    Thanks again for your testimony. The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:14 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Prepared statements, responses to written questions, and 
additional material supplied for the record follow:]
              PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SHERROD BROWN
    My colleagues and I often say the U.S. markets are the envy of the 
world. Our strong and diverse economy and the rule of law benefit 
families and workers saving for the future.
    The breadth of our markets allows many workers to plan for the 
long-term and to take advantage of low-cost, diversified investment 
funds.
    Whether investing for retirement or for college tuition, low-fee, 
broad-based index funds have been an essential resource for millions of 
families.
    That's become more important over the last few decades, as 
corporations have cut or eliminated pension plans, and fewer and fewer 
workers have a union to fight for their retirement security.
    For all the benefits index funds provide, they draw criticism for 
everything from being Marxist, to promoting anticompetitive business 
behavior, to being too active in the affairs of the companies they own 
. . . or too passive in the affairs of the companies they own.
    Many academics, including our witnesses here today, have considered 
aspects of these questions. And, we'll hear from Sen. Sullivan, who 
recently introduced legislation that addresses his concerns.
    To be sure, there are important questions to consider, given how 
important index funds are for pensions and retirement accounts.
    Today's hearing considers how index funds vote on company shares, 
and whether fund investors should be able to vote on the shares held 
and managed by the fund adviser.
    In some ways this issue boils down to one question--who should 
exercise the market share that index funds have gained?
    The law professors testifying today can tell us how corporate and 
securities law grants power to the fund directors and fund managers.
    Critics say that puts too much power in the hands of too few people 
at the largest fund companies.
    Some skeptics say that fund companies have too much influence over 
corporate America to pursue activist social policies. Other critics say 
fund companies should be doing more to hold public companies 
accountable.
    We know index funds are long-term investors that need to think 
about long-term results.
    To me, this debate is about how we can hold corporate executives 
accountable, and make sure they are thinking about long-term value of 
their companies.
    It means putting at the center the workers and communities that 
make those companies work-not just the next quarter's profits.
    That's just common sense.
    Sometimes the long-term success of a company means voting in favor 
of policies that consider climate risk or workforce diversity or human 
capital management. And now, all of a sudden, there are people who 
don't want index fund managers to vote.
    I'm afraid that is what would happen under Sen. Sullivan's bill.
    As we will hear, the INDEX Act strives to achieve democracy for 
fund investors. It starts by singling out index funds--taking aim at 
the biggest firms, but potentially capturing even smaller fund 
companies.
    The bill says fund managers can't vote company shares unless they 
get directions from the fund investors. It's an idea that sounds 
democratic, but doesn't consider the cost or complexity or sheer number 
of votes involved.
    For popular, widely held index funds, that could mean reaching out 
to hundreds of thousands of clients about tens of thousands of 
corporate votes each year.
    Industry data tells us that savers who own stock on their own-not 
through any kind of fund-vote only 30 percent of the time.
    It's hard to imagine that someone who specifically picked a 
professional to invest their money for them would want to become an 
expert in corporate proxy voting and be forced to keep track of 
hundreds of corporate meetings.
    It's an obvious problem--so the INDEX Act solves for it by telling 
fund managers they don't have to vote, even though current law requires 
them to.
    The Act would then leave Americans whose money is invested in these 
index funds with two bad outcomes-either to have no voice, because the 
bill protects fund managers when they don't want to ask for directions 
on voting, or to be inundated with votes on thousands of corporate 
issues.
    To complicate things further, the INDEX Act could give more power 
to short-term investors or large foreign investors. And smaller 
companies could be worse off, because the bill would make it more 
expensive and time consuming to reach out to stockholders.
    Index funds are targeted in part because of their success.
    But if we are really trying to improve transparency and 
accountability for fund managers and public company management, it is 
important to consider potential reforms in this area without 
undermining the clear benefits index funds provide-low-cost access to 
diversified savings and investments.
    The SEC is working to improve the process of corporate voting and 
increase transparency. And market participants are developing 
technology solutions to improve the voting process.
    The current system is far from perfect. But moving to a system that 
would suppress voting, or potentially give more influence to short-term 
interests, is not the answer either.
    I look forward to hearing the testimony today. We'll hear some 
criticism, but also some solutions. I think it is important to start 
this conversation.
                                 ______
                                 
            PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR PATRICK J. TOOMEY
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this important hearing.
    Over the last 25 years, there's been democratization of our capital 
markets. Today, retail investors have access to investment products 
more easily and at lower costs than ever before, through zero 
commission trading, tighter bid-offer spreads, and convenient and user-
friendly interfaces.
    Retail investors have access to countless low-cost, or even zero 
expense, passive index funds and ETFs. And it turns out, investors 
particularly like low-cost, diversified funds that track an index like 
the S&P 500.
    At the end of 2021, index funds held $12.5 trillion in assets. 
Index funds have been a tremendous boon for retirement savings. 
However, their tremendous growth presents a problem.
    A retail investor who buys an index fund technically doesn't own 
the stocks in the fund. The fund owns the stocks and the fund's manager 
can vote them. That gives the managers enormous influence over 
companies, even though they're voting shares purchased with other 
people's money.
    This would be a problem even if this voting power were dispersed. 
But it's not dispersed. The stocks held by index funds are concentrated 
with a few very large asset managers, making these entities 
disproportionately influential with every large public U.S. 
corporation.
    Collectively, BlackRock, State Street, and Vanguard, are the 
largest voting blocks in nearly 90 percent of S&P 500 companies. They 
derive much of their voting power from ordinary Americans who buy index 
funds.
    Even though this isn't the managers' money, and they are supposed 
to be investing this money passively, they're nonetheless voting these 
shares. I'd like to highlight two problems that arise from this 
consolidation of corporate voting power.
    First, some asset managers are using their voting power to advance 
their own political agendas. They're voting on shareholder proposals 
and board nominees. By virtue of this power, they can apply pressure 
over companies outside of formal votes.
    For example, last year, BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street 
backed the effort of Engine No. 1, a small hedge fund owning just 0.02 
percent of Exxon's voting shares, to install on the board of Exxon 
directors who are sympathetic to the fund's global warming activism.
    Engine No. 1's effort to install board members who want to 
fundamentally remake an oil company, succeeded because the Big Three 
agreed. Does anyone seriously believe all of the Big Three's investor 
clients actually want Exxon to transition away from fossil fuels as 
Engine No. 1 wants them to?
    There are plenty of actively managed funds that investors can 
choose from that will pursue reforms and changes at companies if those 
investors see fit. But passively managed funds aren't supposed to 
impose a strategic vision or agenda on firms. They are supposed to 
benignly follow the market.
    Second, as I've noted, these asset managers are voting shares 
purchased with other people's money. Asset managers should not be using 
their clients' voting power to pursue the political agenda of their 
CEOs or exercise control over corporations.
    Investors select index funds to track the market, not to have the 
big asset managers change the market based on their political views. 
Rather, they choose an asset manager based on factors like fees, 
returns, and the index a fund tracks.
    Congress needs to address the problems of the largest asset 
managers voting other people's shares and their consolidation of 
corporate voting power. In my view, the solution is to return voting 
power to the true investors in a company-the people who put their own 
money at risk.
    Senator Dan Sullivan has introduced legislation--the INDEX Act--to 
do just that. I'm proud to cosponsor it and delighted he's here today 
to discuss it.
    The INDEX Act requires any asset manager of a passive index fund 
with more than 1 percent of a company's voting shares to vote those 
shares in accordance with the instructions of the fund's investors, not 
at the discretion of the asset manager. Or they could choose to not 
vote at all.
    This means such asset managers, including for index funds offered 
under 401(k) plans, ERISA plans, and the Thrift Savings Plan for 
Federal workers and retirees, could no longer use and abuse the voting 
power of their index fund investors to advance their own agendas.
    Importantly, the INDEX Act recognizes the reality that index fund 
investors may want some guidance in deciding how to vote their shares, 
since there could be numerous votes to cast. Researching and deciding 
on each of those votes could be incredibly time consuming for the 
average investor.
    That's why the INDEX Act requires asset managers to permit third-
party vote recommendations on their voting platforms so that investors 
can consult these recommendations. And asset managers that provide 
third-party recommendations must do so on a non-discriminatory basis 
that allows investors to consult a broad diversity of views.
    To make the voting process simpler and more efficient for index 
investors, the INDEX Act would allow recommendations to take the form 
of general voting instructions given in advance. That means an investor 
could vote according to those general instructions, not on a case-by-
case basis. For example, an investor could choose to always support 
management's position on votes, unless the investor decided otherwise.
    I look forward to hearing from today's witnesses. In my view, 
further democratizing investing and diminishing the consolidation of 
corporate voting power are objectives that members of both parties can, 
and should, get behind. I hope that today's discussion will help us 
build bipartisan support for legislation that will achieve these 
important objectives.
                                 ______
                                 
               PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR DAN SULLIVAN
                           Senator of Alaska
                             June 14, 2022
    Thank you Chairman Brown for holding this hearing on this important 
issue.
    And thank you Ranking Member Toomey for your leadership, and for 
your work and support on the INDEX Act.
    Additionally, thank you to my other friends and colleagues on the 
dais who cosponsored this important bill.
    At the outset, I want to acknowledge that the impetus for this 
legislation was due to my ongoing frustrations with America's largest 
banks and insurance companies black balling oil and gas development--
specifically in my State--while at the same time eagerly doing business 
in China and propping up the CCP.
    These companies feel the need to do this, in part, because of 
pressure from their largest shareholders--the big three investment 
advisers and their index funds.
    However, this Alaska-centric frustration uncovered a broader 
concern about the sheer power that is consolidated within these three 
firms, and the massive distortion in our public market that it creates.
    I'm sure you are all familiar with the numbers. The Big 3--
Blackrock, Vanguard, and State Street, who:
    Manage around $20 trillion in combined assets;
    Are the largest owner in around 90 percent of the S&P 500 
companies; and
    Cast nearly 1/4th of all votes at annual meetings.
    These numbers were even larger before the recent market correction, 
and they will only grow as more and more Americans move into passive 
funds.
    In many ways, this is a success story--investors are benefiting 
from greater diversification and lower fees, however the unintended 
consequence has been the consolidation of ownership and voting power 
with these three firms.
    These companies wield this market dominance through behind-the-
scenes engagements with company management and by voting with complete 
discretion at thousands of shareholder meetings on behalf of millions 
of Americans.
    They can steer our public market toward policies that they prefer--
completely bypassing the political accountability of our legislative 
process, and completely disconnected from the interests of their 
massively diverse universe of investors.
    This should concern all of us--regardless of political party.
    For now, you may like some of the positions that these entities 
advocate for, but leadership and positions can change at these powerful 
investment advisers--look at the ongoing Twitter saga.
    I know some of my Democrat colleagues have expressed concerns and 
frustrations with these firms: primarily, that the big 3 are deferring 
far too much to management.
    In fact, just a few months ago, Senator Bernie Sanders held an 
entire Budget Committee hearing about this problem.
    At its core, my bill, the Investor Democracy is Expected Act (INDEX 
Act) is politically neutral.
    In many ways, it is the next logical step in Dodd-Frank. Before it 
became law, broker dealers were allowed to vote shares held in street 
name even though the beneficial owner of the shares were the clients.
    Congress recognized then that shares should be voted to reflect the 
wishes of the investor, not based on the wishes of intermediaries. The 
INDEX Act is the same exact principle extended to index funds.
    The bill simply requires that investment advisors of passively-
managed funds vote proxies in accordance with the instruction of fund 
investors, and not at the discretion of the adviser.
    It would return the voting power back to the beneficial owners of 
the shares, not the index fund managers. And I think it is a little 
condescending to say that the average American doesn't vote their 
shares, which is true, so they shouldn't have the opportunity or power 
to do it. Not voting is a vote in and of itself.
    The big 3 recognize this, and some are already announcing steps to 
increase investor choice on proxies--but obviously they are still 
retaining significant discretion.
    This issue requires Congressional action--just like it did in 2010 
with Dodd Frank.
    We know that there are complexities to implementing this kind of 
pass-through voting mechanic, especially for retail investors. The bill 
is not overly prescriptive on these mechanics, and it is only targeting 
the largest firms who have with the necessary resources and 
infrastructure to successfully implement a system like this.
    The INDEX Act would accomplish two important goals: it would 
neutralize the massive power that the largest investment advisers have 
amassed, and it would empower real investors--fostering a healthier, 
more competitive, and democratic corporate governance ecosystem.
    I will close with a quote from Jack Bogle, the founder of Vanguard, 
and father of the index fund, who voiced a warning before his passing 
in 2019: ``If historical trends continue, a handful of giant 
institutional investors will one day hold voting control of virtually 
every large U.S. corporation. Public policy cannot ignore this growing 
dominance''.
    This day is upon us. This prophetic warning has proven itself out, 
and we need to act in a bipartisan manner on this important issue.
    I look forward to the rest of the hearing today and working with 
all of you on this issue, and I would encourage all my colleagues to 
consider the INDEX Act as a nonpartisan solution.
    Thank you again to the Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of the 
Committee for having me today.
                                 ______
                                 
                PREPARED STATEMENT OF JOHN C. COATES IV
 John F. Cogan, Jr., Professor of Law and Economics, Harvard Law School
                             June 14, 2022
    Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and Members of the 
Committee, thank you for inviting me to provide written testimony on 
the index fund voting process. The rise of index fund ownership and its 
effects on corporate governance are important, as I have written. \1\ 
As I continue to study the phenomenon, I now think of it not as a 
``problem'' to be solved, but as a ``dilemma'' to be managed, to 
balance economic and practical trade-offs. Any legislative intervention 
should be cautious and provisional, giving the Securities and Exchange 
Commission (SEC) the ability to adjust and refine how the law applies 
over time, as markets respond and evolve.
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     \1\ ``The Problem of Twelve'', Columbia Global Press (forthcoming 
2022); ``The Future of Corporate Governance Part I: The Problem of 
Twelve'' (Sep. 20, 2018). Harvard Public Law Working Paper No. 19-07, 
https://ssrn.com/abstract=3247337; ``Thirty Years of Evolution in the 
Roles of Institutional Investors in Corporate Governance'' (May 2014), 
in Research Handbook on Shareholder Power (Jennifer Hill and Randall 
Thomas, eds., Edward Elgar 2015).
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    To state the dilemma: On the one hand, index funds provide huge 
economic benefits to individual investors, in the form of low cost 
diversification, which requires keeping regulatory burdens low. On the 
other hand, their success has so concentrated ownership as to challenge 
the legitimacy and accountability of customary delegated governance. 
The rise in popularity of ``indexes'' also threatens to harm investors 
through creation and marketing of bespoke and undiversified or 
otherwise risky ``indexed products'' that lack the characteristics of 
conventional indexes. Giving investors ways to better understand and 
inform advisors about governance decisions and preferences are worthy 
goals. To avoid degrading index funds' real benefits, any legislative 
solution should be practical, cost-effective, and carefully designed to 
avoid unintended consequences, in part by delegating implementation to 
the SEC. It should enlist rather than try to supplant market forces.
    As written, Senate Bill 4241 is not practical or cost-effective, 
would create significant uncertainty in corporate governance, and would 
not address the dilemma of indexation. As discussed more below, 
depending on unpredictable and ever-shifting variation in ownership of 
public companies, it would variably (a) entrench managers to 
shareholders' detriment, (b) make it cheaper for hedge fund activists 
to attack well-run companies, to the detriment of both corporate 
managers and shareholders more generally, (c) boost the power of proxy 
advisors, with some risk of harm to individual investors and in any 
event only shifting and not improving the legitimacy and accountability 
of corporate governance, and (d) likely result in less long-term 
investor influence than at present. It would also create bad incentives 
for funds or pension plans to adapt ``closet indexing'' strategies to 
avoid the law's effects (resulting in no benefits and additional 
costs).
    Better would be a package of reforms that are more modest and 
effectively targeted. Straightforward would be reforms that build on 
the kinds of self-imposed disclosure and governance processes and rules 
that index fund advisors have developed on their own, as they have 
attempted to address the legitimacy dilemma of their success. For 
example, low-cost quarterly or more frequent reporting is feasible for 
large funds. Also worth consideration are specified qualitative 
disclosures about how advisors develop, identify, assess, and take 
voting positions on new issues as they emerge. It should be possible 
for fund advisors to obtain information from their investors about how 
they want indirect governance powers to be exercised, without 
attempting to go so far as S. 4241. But the technology challenges and 
costs of such investor input should not be underestimated, and patient 
and persistent pressure from the SEC is likely to lead to better 
outcomes than an attempt to micromanage consultations through 
legislation.
    Conflict of interest restrictions that exist at the fund level 
could also be imposed at the advisor level. This would help insure that 
the potential power that large fund advisors obtain from concentrated 
ownership cannot be leveraged to benefit their other operations or to 
harm any of their own investors. To insure this step does not create 
unintended consequences, it should be done by authorizing and directing 
the SEC to do so, with appropriate adjustments as the SEC may discover 
are appropriate to protect investors.
    Consistent with analysis and recommendations from former University 
of Virginia School of Law Dean Paul Mahoney and Professor Adriana 
Robertson, \2\ Congress could clarify authority for the SEC to oversee 
index providers (such as S&P and MSCI), who provide the key input to 
the index fund product (that is, indexes themselves), and do so with 
enormous discretion and with light and incidental current oversight. As 
to fund advisors, Congress could simplify the requirements for or 
direct the SEC to use authority to provide exemptive regulatory or 
liability relief necessary to enable large fund advisors to experiment 
with practical, low-cost ways to obtain governance direction from their 
investors. Finally, the SEC should also have at least as much authority 
it currently has to review and approve new funds to also review and 
approve investment products that use the ``index'' brand to partly 
mimic conventional, low-cost diversified index funds, but lack their 
all-in investor-friendly attributes, while being designed to avoid 
conventional fund regulation, including collective investment trusts 
sponsored by banks.
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     \2\ ``Advisers by Another Name'', 11 Harv. Bus. L. Rev. 311 
(2021).
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    The rest of this written testimony builds on this introduction in 
three ways: (a) the benefits of index funds are amplified, to 
underscore how important it is not to unduly degrade them; (b) the 
problems with the intuitive but ultimately impractical and even harmful 
concepts in S. 4241 are explained, and (c) some alternatives for 
improved regulation sketched above are discussed in more detail.
1. The Benefits of Indexation
    Indexation and index funds provide enormous direct and indirect 
economic benefits to Main Street investors. That is precisely why they 
own a large and increasing share of U.S. public company stocks (as well 
as other financial assets). ``At year-end 2021, index mutual funds and 
index ETFs together accounted for 43 percent of assets in long-term 
funds, up from 21 percent at year-end 2011.'' \3\ They continue to 
increase their market share.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \3\ ``ICI Factbook 2022'', at 29.
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    They continue to succeed because they are a cost-effective way for 
individual Americans to invest in broadly diversified portfolios, 
especially for the 99+ percent who lack the wealth required to hire a 
full-time and trusted personal financial advisor. They provide better 
risk-adjusted returns than if such investors tried to invest directly 
in public company stocks, and on average better than through other 
institutional channels. \4\ My first investment--at age 14 if memory 
serves--was in a Vanguard index fund. I am not a financial advisor, but 
I will continue to recommend index funds--to my children, for example.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \4\ Fama, Eugene, and Kenneth French. 2010. ``Luck Versus Skill in 
the Cross-Section of Mutual Fund Performance''. Journal of Finance 65, 
1915-1947; Kosowski, Robert, Allan Timmermann, Russ Wermers, and Hal 
White. 2006. ``Can Mutual Fund `Stars' Really Pick Stocks? New Evidence 
From a Bootstrap Analysis''. Journal of Finance 61, 2551-2595.
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    Still, to be clear, I am not one of those finance academics that 
believes that no one can outperform the market, or that actively 
managed funds are so incapable of doing that that they should be 
banned. Many professionals can in fact generate ``alpha'' for their 
investment clients--that is, they can select or weight stocks to 
achieve greater returns than if they simply invested in standard 
indexes. \5\ That is true on a net-of-fee and risk-adjusted basis, at 
least for certain kinds of financial assets. \6\ In the limit, in 
principle, doing so will become more feasible as indexation increases.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \5\ Barras, Laurent, Olivier Scaillet, and Russ Wermers. 2010. 
``False Discoveries in Mutual Fund Performance: Measuring Luck in 
Estimated Alphas''. Journal of Finance 65, 179-216 (75.4 percent of 
funds have some skill); Berk, Jonathan, and Jules van Binsbergen. 2015. 
``Measuring Skill in the Mutual Fund Industry''. Journal of Financial 
Economics 118, 1-20.
     \6\ See K.J. Martijn Cremers, Jon A. Fulkerson, and Timothy B. 
Riley, ``Challenging the Conventional Wisdom on Active Management: A 
Review of the Past 20 Years of Academic Literature on Actively Managed 
Mutual Funds'', 75 Fin. Anal. J. 1-28 (2019) (surveying studies).
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    I come to the topic of index funds, then, not a quasireligious 
supporter, or a detractor, but as one who sees their social and 
economic benefits as well as the social and economic challenges they 
create. Their rise has lowered the all-in costs of investment directly, 
for their own investors. On an asset-weighted average basis, 
conventional equity index fund expense ratios are six basis points; by 
contrast, the median equity mutual fund charges 104 basis points, more 
than 15x higher. \7\ Costs of directly investing in equivalent 
diversified portfolios are vastly higher for individuals.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \7\ ``ICI Factbook 2022'', at Figure 6.5.
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    Index funds also have benefited all investors, through competition. 
As they have grown their market share, their direct competitors--
actively managed funds--have lowered their fees, too, or else exited 
the market, shifting assets to lower-fee funds, on average. \8\ By 
making it easier to invest, they also induce more investment, which 
increases liquidity, and lowers the cost of capital for all firms. 
Their economic benefits, in other words, are general, and benefit the 
market as a whole.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \8\ Id. at Figures 6.2 and 6.3.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Index funds not only charge lower fees, they also impose lower 
opportunity costs on investors. It is vastly simpler for an individual 
investor to designate and invest in a reputable low-cost index fund 
than it is to invest directly. That is true even if a retail investor 
invests in the same underlying securities, and even if they could do so 
at the same out-of-pocket cost, which they cannot. That is partly 
because the components of indexes are constantly changing, as companies 
merge or otherwise drop out of the market, and new ones are added. An 
individual investing directly would have to be continually engaged in 
buying new stocks (along with record-keeping, tax reporting and other 
``back office'' activities) to preserve their exposure to the same 
diversified investments a single index fund provides.
    Oversight of actively managed funds also takes more time than 
oversight of index funds. Active strategies must evolve with markets, 
and key members of good active fund portfolio management teams can 
retire or exit their roles. Individual investors must thus devote more 
attention to monitoring active funds than index funds. Importantly for 
present purposes, governance itself--learning when shares need to be 
voted, learning about the issues or people to be voted upon, and then 
voting--is time-consuming and expensive. Few individuals will or even 
could oversee the votes attached to the many thousands of companies 
whose shares are held by the most successful index funds. Even 
attempting such a task would approach a full-time job for an individual 
investor.
    Finally, index funds enjoy significant economies of scale, at least 
if they primarily hold large company liquid stocks. Those economies of 
scale are part of why they can charge lower fees. They use their large 
scale to negotiate very low cost service contracts for back-office 
functions and trading. Not only do these economies contribute to their 
growth, but they also create greater concentration of ownership and 
create the ``dilemma'' sketched in my introduction.
    For thinking about legal change, it is important to note that law 
and regulation contribute to economies of scale, by simplifying the 
allocation of voting rights associated with assets held by index funds. 
Fund investors, unlike direct investors, do not vote the shares owned 
by the fund. Fund advisors do. This follows from basic organizational 
law, long primarily a task for the States, not the Federal Government. 
Because advisors can and have developed voting systems that can 
accommodate multiple funds within a given fund complex, the per-vote 
cost of governance for index funds is lower than for individuals, or 
smaller funds and smaller complexes.
    Given that they achieve all of the foregoing benefits, the most 
important principle in thinking about how they are regulated is the 
principle of ``first, do no harm.'' As I will sketch next, the voting 
system underneath each index fund is more complex than it appears, just 
as our sleekly designed personal laptops and phones contain intricate 
systems inside. It would be a mistake to tinker with the insides of our 
devices without expert help, or to do so quickly, or based on 
simplified assumptions about how they work. The same is true for 
corporate governance by index funds.
2. The Governance Roles of Index Funds and the Likely Effects of S. 
        4241
    Index funds--like all mutual funds, pension funds, corporations and 
trusts--have legal ownership of their investment assets, such as 
shares. Fund investors own shares issued by funds, not shares owned by 
funds. Fund investors do not have the right to direct how the fund 
votes shares it owns. The fund board has that right, typically 
delegated under a contract to the fund advisor.
    The same is true of investors in a public company. They do not have 
the right to direct how to vote shares of other companies that it may 
own. For example, Exxon and Shell have a 50/50 joint venture called 
Infineum. The shareholders of Exxon do not have a right to vote 
Infineum shares, even 50 percent of them. Exxon, the corporation, has 
that right, a right held by the Exxon board, typically delegated to 
Exxon officers. In this way, index funds are treated under States 
identically to other kinds of legal entities. To break from this 
tradition, as proposed in S. 4241, would be a significant change--
suggesting caution, as such a change is likely to have unintended 
consequences.
    As S. 4241 recognizes, fund owners are themselves commonly other 
legal entities, such as other funds or trusts or retirement plans. Not 
reflected in the bill, fund owners can also be ``omnibus'' accounts at 
brokerage firms, through which still other investors invest in the 
fund, whose identities are purposefully shielded from fund advisors for 
competitive reasons. Many fund advisors separately manage ``sleeves'' 
or separate accounts that own the same investments as a fund, in a 
legally separate way, which would be unaffected by legal changes 
applicable to index funds, yet which are included in the numbers 
usually quoted (including by me) to show the rise of indexation. 
Sometimes voting rights of assets held in such separate accounts are 
retained by the investor, but sometimes they are delegated to the 
advisor, as with a fund.
    If this brief sketch seems complicated, it is in fact a gross 
simplification of reality. A typical index fund will have some shares 
owned by (for example) one or more other mutual funds, one or more 
pension funds, one or more corporations, and one or more separate 
accounts at an insurance company. Some of the assets of those entities 
are typically owned in turn by retirement accounts, which are sponsored 
in turn by (for example) an employer (e.g., a dentist office) for the 
benefit of current and retired employees. If one were to drill through 
all of the layers of ownership of a typical large index fund, one would 
find not simply the thousands of shareholders that directly own fund 
shares, but thousands more individual beneficiaries, separated by 
varying degrees of legal ownership. Tracing the chains of economic 
ownership up and back down is complex, time-consuming, and error-prone.
    Even if a fund were ``flat,'' and simply had a 1,000 individual 
shareholders, passing through portfolio level votes to its own 
shareholders would be complex, time-consuming and error-prone. I can 
assert this with confidence because of our experience with the current 
portfolio-company-level voting system. When a company like Procter & 
Gamble seeks a vote from its shareholders, many of those shareholders 
own shares through brokers. Unlike individuals who own through funds, 
individuals who own through brokers retain the right to vote. But the 
process by which P&G seeks proxies from its shareholders, and brokers 
seek instructions from their clients, is still a work in progress. Only 
in the current--2022--shareholder meeting season is the industry--by 
which I mean Broadridge (a major proxy services firm), along with 
corporate transfer agents, the Depository Trust Company, and large 
broker-dealers--after years of planning--finally testing a pilot system 
to permit ultimate individual broker clients to ``confirm'' that their 
voting instructions were carried out. \9\ In the past, many such 
instructions have been imperfectly followed, at best. The result has 
sometimes been lengthy and disputed vote contests, where weeks passed 
before it was clear who won a given vote, and even then without those 
involved from having any confidence that votes were correctly counted. 
Put simply, the foundations of the current voting system are not yet 
secure. Adding more structures on top of a shaky foundation is likely 
to not achieve what is intended.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \9\ See https://cdn.ymaws.com/stai.org/resource/resmgr/industry-
info/pilot-announcement-as-of-12.pdf. For background on vote 
confirmations and other challenges in the basic portfolio-company 
voting system, see https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/investor-advisory-
committee-2012/iac-recommendation-proxy-plumbing.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Senate Bill 4241 would magnify by many times the challenges of the 
current voting system. Somewhat simplified, it would require covered 
index funds to ``pass through'' votes on nonroutine matters to fund 
shareholders. Because, as noted above, many fund shareholders are 
themselves funds or other entities, it could require multiple pass-
throughs. But even one pass-through to the first layer of shareholders 
at a major index fund would create enormous practical challenges, along 
with expense, delay and error. Those costs would be borne by individual 
investors in index funds. The increased costs would reduce the benefits 
of index funds, and induce some investors to switch to fund options 
that are less efficient for them.
    Whatever benefits the system would create would be small, because 
few individuals are likely to use the pass-through rights for most 
votes. The costs are likely to be far higher, because the sheer number 
of votes required each year for index funds, which are designed, 
customarily, to invest in thousands of companies. Simply identifying 
the choices and voting in thousands of companies' director elections 
and shareholder resolutions and merger votes would overwhelm a typical 
individual. I study voting outcomes as part of my job as a researcher 
and teacher, and even have a taste for it, but I can barely keep up 
with the aggregate numbers, much less individual votes. The result 
would be that a tiny fraction of eligible votes would be cast, at what 
would still be a significant cost (for the fund to communicate times 
with its investors about the votes, and vice versa). It is tempting to 
think modern technology would make such communications inexpensive. 
That would be, in my experience, a mistake. The ``back office'' details 
of such communication systems always turn out to be far more complex 
that simple intuition might suggest. Remember that fund shareholders 
move in and out of funds every day, so determining who is entitled to 
instruct on a given vote is not simple. Voting instruction forms can be 
imperfectly completed or interpreted or applied. Investors will want 
confirmations, and will generate further costs as they dial in or 
electronically attempt to change or undo prior instructions. They will 
want to complain if they believe their instructions were not completed 
properly. Any pass-through is not simply a one-time technology fix, but 
an ongoing workstream requiring many full-time staff to implement. If 
your intuition is that the cost of such a pass-through is X, I would 
suggest the actual cost is at least 10X, and could well turn out to be 
100X. And to repeat, that cost will generate relatively little actual 
benefit, because most fund investors will not instruct on thousands of 
voting choices per year.
    This prediction is consistent with individual voter turnout in 
corporate elections, where individuals have self-consciously chosen to 
remain direct investors. In such elections, they vote at far lower 
levels than is true for institutional shareholders. That is true even 
in contested votes where both sides expend significant sums to 
encourage shareholders to vote. The predictable passivity of 
individuals who currently invest through index funds is even greater. 
After all, they have chosen to use an index fund (rather than investing 
directly) for reasons, which include cost reduction and minimizing the 
need to monitor their investments.
    To address the possibility that fund investors would not use the 
pass-through voting rights, the bill would permit funds to engage in 
``mirror voting.'' \10\ That is, they could vote uninstructed shares in 
the same way that other investors vote. I put aside the challenges of 
fund advisors obtaining information that would permit mirror voting 
(often, particularly in close contests, many votes are made at the last 
minute). Even if it could be made practical, mirror voting would 
effectively magnify the power of a voting instruction given by other 
investors. These other investors include activist hedge funds, funds 
that are actively managed but are pursuing a variety of non-
representative and nonfinancial agendas, and funds that follow advice 
from proxy advisors such as ISS and Glass-Lewis, as well as executives. 
Mirror voting would effectively shift voting power from index fund 
advisors to those other shareholders, with hard-to-predict outcomes. 
While some of those other shareholders are individuals, those 
individuals (as noted above) vote less frequently than institutional 
shareholders. So instead of empowering individuals, the bill would 
magnify the power of other institutions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \10\ It also provides a safe-harbor for funds that simply do not 
vote at all, which has effectively the same result as mirror voting, 
except that it could mean many companies could fail to achieve a quorum 
of shareholders voting, as required under varying States laws and 
corporate charters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am fairly sure that what would result is not what is intended. In 
a subset of public companies, the result would be to entrench managers 
who own enough shares for the boost of the mirror voting of index funds 
to move them from a non-controlling to a controlling position. For 
those companies, it would be as if the law had transformed ordinary 
voting structures into dual class structures, without any shareholder 
involvement. This would increase agency costs and increase the risk of 
managers pursuing non-shareholder goals.
    In other companies, instead of fund advisor employees voting 
shares, the shares would effectively be voted mostly at the direction 
of other agents--not individuals. To take a simple example to 
illustrate, suppose votes at a given company were distributed this way 
on the record date used to determine voting eligibility:

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    For this simple stylized example, I use numbers roughly based on 
data from Innisfree, a proxy solicitor, building on their deep 
experience analyzing corporate ownership and predicting likely voting 
outcomes for corporate boards and other clients. Notice that the effect 
of ``mirror voting'' or nonvoting by index funds (as permitted by S. 
4241) is to boost the effective votes of other shareholders. However, 
because managers often own so few shares, the boost is correspondingly 
small, so small it does not change the percentage, due to rounding. For 
clients of ISS and Glass Lewis, the boost is much larger--their likely 
vote grows from 25 percent to 31 percent. Once one takes into account 
the fact that individual shareholders commonly do not vote, even when 
aggressively solicited in a voting contest, the effective votes of 
hedge funds and proxy advisory clients moves to over 50 percent. Even 
assuming only 80 percent of proxy advisory clients side with a hedge 
fund activist and vote, mirror voting makes a hedge fund victory in a 
control contest significantly more likely than if index funds could 
vote, because index funds (on average) tend to vote more frequently 
with management. But if the starting position of hedge funds was lower, 
and managers or other institutions higher, the outcome could well be 
different, and could even (as noted above) entrench managers (or 
empower proxy advisor clients). One can vary assumptions in this simple 
scenario, and produce outcomes that range widely in likely effect on 
the ability of corporate managers to resist hedge fund activism, social 
activist resolutions, or other contested votes.
    This uncertainty across outcomes is not a minor flaw. The net 
effect of the pass-through and mirror voting provisions would be to 
increase significantly the challenges of predicting the outcomes of 
many corporate votes, casting a shadow over all public companies. Many 
outcomes would be bad for shareholders as a whole, on average. And the 
uncertainty involved would induce more activist interventions, 
management risk-aversion and settlements in which management gives up 
control to a subset of institutional investors. That would not be good 
for corporate managers or corporate governance as a whole, and 
certainly not benefit the individual investors in index funds, on 
average.
    The bill would also create bad incentives for funds to adapt 
``closet indexing'' strategies to avoid the law's effects (resulting in 
no gains and additional costs), and for investors to avoid index funds 
to avoid the associated costs. Index funds could avoid the effects of 
the bill by modifying their approach to over- or under-weight 
components of an index sufficiently to avoid the application of the 
law. This is not easily fixed, because it is not a simple task to 
identify whether a fund's investments have been chosen to track or be 
derived from an index, or whether their risk and return characteristics 
happen to be correlated with an index. On average, by construction, 
stocks and other investable assets have a ``beta'' of one--they are 
correlated with the market as a whole. In a diversified portfolio, many 
companies' shares move in tandem, even if they are not part of an 
index. The upshot is that the bill could be avoided, albeit with costs 
and increased risk for investors. Alternatively, it could be rewritten 
to cover all funds, but that would magnify its costs for little 
marginal benefit.
    In sum, the bill would generate significant costs--which would be 
borne by Main Street investors. It would be likely to not generate 
substantial new individual investor engagement. Instead, it would shift 
voting power away from economic owners to unpredictable groupings of 
other shareholders. And it would make the overall voting process more 
complex, time-consuming, error-prone, and unpredictable. If I to be 
asked by anyone with an interest in our corporate governance system--
managers, investors, fund managers, proxy advisors, proxy solicitors, 
or activists of various kinds--the cost and risk are such that I would 
advise them that they would be worse off as a result.
3. Alternative Suggestions Reforms Addressing the Index Fund Dilemma
    If the rise of indexed funds presents legitimacy and accountability 
challenges, as it does, and if Senate Bill 4241 would make corporate 
governance worse, what are alternative suggestions for reform? What 
would allow individual investors to better understand and inform 
advisors about governance decisions, without degrading index funds' 
real benefits?
    First, reforms could build on the kinds of self-imposed disclosure 
and governance tasks that index fund advisors have developed on their 
own, as they have attempted to confront the legitimacy dilemma of their 
own success. For example, low-cost quarterly or more frequent reporting 
is feasible for large funds. A faster cadence of after-the-fact 
electronic vote reporting is now cheaper than in the past, and would 
not impose undue costs on fund investors. The costs of increased 
frequency of fund reporting would be far lower than the costs of a 
pass-through system would be, because more frequent reporting of fund 
votes involve an existing system, the fixed costs of which have already 
been incurred, and would consist of a presentation of facts funds must 
already track. A pass-through system would involve new fixed costs in a 
system that could elicit, process, validate, aggregate, implement, and 
reporting back about thousands of voting instructions from thousands of 
investors.
    Advisors could also provide better qualitative disclosures about 
how advisors develop governance understanding and voting positions on 
new issues as they emerge. Currently, the only time that fund investors 
learn about a fund advisor's inclinations on a given policy issue--
e.g., whether to vote to split the Chair and CEO roles across 
companies--is after the fact, after votes on resolutions proposing such 
issues have occurred. Better would be to inform fund investors 
beforehand, so they would know that a new kind of governance issue has 
arisen, and that the fund advisor is considering how to respond. Some 
issues are too company-specific for advance disclosure to be feasible, 
outside a specific vote, but often issues arise at one company only to 
become the subject at votes at multiple companies over time. If 
advisors were to proactively identify ``emerging issues'' for their own 
fund shareholders, those shareholders would be better able to respond 
(such as by selling fund shares, if they wanted, as they can do now) 
based on how the advisor plans to respond to the issues. Market 
discipline would be more effective with more complete advance 
disclosure about how fund advisors evaluate new policy issues over 
which they exercise delegated governance authority.
    More ambitiously, it should be possible for fund advisors to obtain 
some information from their investors about how they want their 
indirect governance powers should be exercised, without attempting to 
go so far as S. 4241. For example, funds might ask their investors for 
their views on topics overall, or whether overall a fund advisor should 
follow the advice of an existing proxy advisor, or a new one that might 
emerge over time, which might take different positions from existing 
proxy advisors. Or funds might give their own investors the ability to 
set overall voting guidelines, as ISS's institutional clients already 
do. Those views could be aggregated and used by a fund advisor to guide 
it in making voting decisions for fund shareholders as a whole. While I 
believe some such system may turn out to be workable, I emphasize that 
imposing a simplistic requirement to provide such options may not be 
best for index fund investors as a whole. That is because any such 
option may only be used by a minor number of fund investors, but the 
system to permit it would impose costs on all fund investors. Index 
funds have a ``mutual'' component of shared costs, after all--that is 
they are ``mutual funds.'' Individual investors electing to use the 
system might be charged individually for the costs of such a system, 
but such separate expense pass-throughs raise complex regulatory 
questions under current law, and may require exemptive relief from the 
SEC.
    For both cost reasons, and because taking instructions in this way 
is likely to be quite practically challenging, for reasons sketched 
above, investors in and advisors to index funds are likely to benefit 
from pilots and experimentation before finalizing any given method of 
communicating with or eliciting governance information from fund 
shareholders. It would be best to avoid trying to micromanage how it 
will be done through legislation, and instead provide advisors with 
flexibility to test whether and which such types of systems would 
actually be used by investors. Directing the SEC to oversee pilot 
programs proposed by advisors to accomplish these goals would be a 
conservative (in the nonpolitical sense) way to pursue such a goal. The 
SEC could also be given clear authority to provide regulatory relief 
(from fiduciary duties under the Investment Advisers Act or other legal 
duties) if needed by advisors to pursue such pilots, conditioned on 
appropriate public-regarding conditions and investor protections.
    Conflict of interest restrictions that exist at the fund level 
could also be imposed at the advisor level. This would help assure that 
the potential power that large fund advisors obtain from concentrated 
ownership cannot be leveraged to benefit their other operations or to 
harm any of their own investors. So that this step does not create 
unintended consequences, it should be done by authorizing and directing 
the SEC to do so, with appropriate adjustments as the SEC may discover 
are appropriate to protect investors.
    As you consider index funds, you should also consider index 
providers (such as S&P and MSCI), who provide the key input to the 
index fund product (i.e., indexes). The market for index creation is 
highly concentrated, and some evidence exists that providers use market 
power to charge substantial licensing fees. \11\ They wield enormous 
discretion and have light and incidental current oversight. Famous 
examples of companies like Tesla being taken out of the S&P ESG Index 
are not due to choices by index funds, but by the index sponsor. 
Increasingly, ``indexes'' are being created that consist of narrow 
classes of assets, without meaningful economic diversification. Former 
Virginia Law Dean Paul Mahoney and Professor Adriana Robertson have 
argued that the SEC already has authority to regulate index providers 
as ``investment advisers,'' but Congress could clarify this authority. 
Doing so could stave off at least some kinds of predictable industry 
court challenges, and the SEC could be given some direction as to how 
index providers should be supervised in this respect. Through a public-
comment style process, they could be required to take input from 
individual investors on how to manage and adapt existing indexes over 
time.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \11\ Y. An, M. Benetton, and Y. Song, ``Index Providers: Whales 
Behind the Scenes of ETFs'', Working Paper (Jan. 12, 2022), available 
at https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/
Matteo%20Benetton%20Paper%20Final.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally, before imposing costly new regulations on index funds 
alone, some thought should be given to whether ``indexation'' is being 
misused outside the context of the largest index funds. Collective 
investment trusts sponsored by banks are currently beyond the reach of 
the securities laws, as are commodity pools investing in index-linked 
derivatives. It is not clear that giving responsibility for supervising 
such vehicles to different Federal agencies makes sense, as they are 
functionally much closer to mutual funds than to other types of 
financial institutions.
    More dangerously, many ``products'' are sold directly or through 
brokers to investors as index-linked bonds or the like, and are 
structured not to fall outside the SEC's jurisdiction altogether, but 
outside of the Investment Company Act of 1940. As a result, they may be 
marketed as ``index-based'' without having to comply with the 
diversification, conflict-of-interest and custody rules applicable to 
mutual funds, such as index funds. Many such products are increasingly 
being built on bespoke, one-off indices, that utterly lack the economic 
benefits of index funds. The SEC should also have at least as much 
authority it currently has to review and approve new funds to also 
review and approve such products, even if they are not formally 
investment companies.
    None of these suggestions will ``solve'' the ``problem'' of 
increased concentration of ownership through index funds. They do have 
promise, however, of mitigating the legitimacy and accountability 
dilemma that such concentration creates. Most importantly, if carefully 
crafted and accompanied by delegation to the SEC, they may achieve 
benefits without destroying the basis on which such funds have provided 
enormous economic benefits to Main Street investors.
                                 ______
                                 
                  PREPARED STATEMENT OF CALEB GRIFFIN
    Assistant Professor of Law, University of Arkansas School of Law
                             June 14, 2022
                             
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIRMAN BROWN
                     FROM JOHN C. COATES IV

Q.1. Professor Coates, your testimony mentioned how activist 
investors could benefit from diminished index fund voting. 
Please discuss the general trends you have observed in voting 
dynamics and what could happen if individual investors don't 
participate and fund shares are not voted, or aligned voted 
with the rest of the shareholders as contemplated by the INDEX 
Act?

A.1. Shareholder activism is increasing over time. This 
includes activism sponsored by hedge funds that do not 
necessarily share the same time horizons or goals of other 
shareholders. If the economic interests of individuals held 
through index funds are deprived of votes, either because 
individuals do not use pass-through rights or because index 
fund advisors decide not to vote (as permitted by the INDEX 
Act), this will increase the power of other shareholders, in 
varying and unpredictable ways, likely induce more hedge fund 
activism, and likely increase the number of activist 
interventions that do not improve shareholder wealth overall.

Q.2. On June 15, 2022, the SEC issued a request for common with 
respect to whether certain index providers, among other market 
participants, should be regulated as investment advisers under 
the Investment Company Act of 1940. Given the growth in the 
types and specialization of index funds, how could such 
regulation help protect investors? Please address the extent to 
which improved disclosures, examinations and inspections, or 
restricting conflicts could help transparency and investor 
protection.

A.2. Regulation of index fund providers as investment advisers 
would be a beneficial additional check on the risks of 
conflicts of interest and manipulation in the design and 
operation of indexes. Indexes are increasingly being developed 
without characteristics (e.g., of diversification) that have 
made index fund investing economically valuable for retail 
investors. In general, index fund providers do not now have any 
meaningful disclosure obligations about when and how they 
develop and publish new indices, even when they are being paid 
by index fund or ETF or other investment advisers to do so, or 
even when they essentially partner with those advisers to 
develop and market new index products. Even if there are no 
current, undiscovered problems associated with index provision, 
sunlight remains the best disinfectant, even as a prophylactic. 
The SEC currently has authority in this area, under the 
Investment Adviser Act and the Investment Company Act, but it 
would be helpful for staff of the Committee to engage with SEC 
staff about possible clarifications or augmentations of SEC 
authority to regulate in this area. I would defer to SEC staff 
on the details of how best to adapt traditional approaches to 
investment adviser regulation and supervision to index fund 
providers.
Q.3. Your testimony highlighted some other potential steps the 
SEC and fund companies can take to make sure public companies 
and fund managers are more transparent and accountable. Please 
highlight any necessary or recommended regulatory or 
legislative changes to achieve those goals.

A.3. The SEC could and should require funds to report portfolio 
company voting on a more frequent basis than currently--several 
large complexes are voluntarily reporting quarterly.
    The SEC should require fund advisers to disclose in more 
detail than currently required how they go about fulfilling 
their fiduciary obligations to vote fund shares. These 
disclosures should not only apply to index fund advisers, but 
all advisers with sufficient assets under management as to 
provide significant voting power over public companies. These 
disclosures should include:

    Descriptions of any procedures or processes they 
        use to develop standing voting positions on topics that 
        recur in voting on shareholder proposals or other kinds 
        of votes,

    How they choose which companies with which to 
        engage, and how they do so,

    What engagements they completed, and what topics 
        were discussed,

    Whether they have any internal limits on who 
        performs those engagements,

    From whom they seek advice or input when developing 
        voting positions, and

    What conflict of interest policies and procedures 
        on voting they have, and how they are enforced,

    Whether (and why) an adviser votes identically 
        across funds in a complex, or differently.

    Such disclosures should be regularly updated, and be linked 
to voting disclosures in a way that better allows fund 
investors to understand how and why the voting power derived 
from their investments is being used as it is. Such disclosures 
should flag ``emerging issues''--shareholder proposal topics or 
formulations that are materially different from prior proposal 
topics or formulations--before the fund adviser has settled on 
a voting position. A final possible type of disclosure 
requirement would be for advisers to regularly engage with 
their own investors in some structured way--whether through 
online discussion forums, investor-specific portals, or by 
posting possible voting positions on new topics for investor 
comment, or some other means.
    To the extent the SEC believes it needs more authority to 
require any of the foregoing that it believes in the best 
interest of investors, Congress should provide that authority.
    To the extent that fund advisers can establish they need 
more exemptive relief to engage in pilot studies that would 
inform the best long-term method of providing information to 
and getting information from their own investors about how the 
advisers do and should vote, and using that information in 
formulating their own voting positions, the SEC should provide 
that relief, appropriately conditioned with regard to investor 
protection. If necessary, SEC staff should inform Congress 
about any needed changes in its own authority to permit such 
pilots.
    Congress should give the SEC full authority to impose on 
fund advisers the same kinds of limits and controls imposed on 
funds relating to conflicts of interest that may arise from 
aggregations of voting power from multiple funds by a single 
``complex'' adviser.
    Congress should consider imposing the same fragmentation 
requirements on complexes that are currently imposed by 
securities law on ``diversified'' funds, and by tax law on all 
funds that seek to avoid entity-level taxation. See Investment 
Company Act Section 6; Internal Revenue Code Sections 851-852. 
It may also make more sense to combine these fragmentation 
provisions into a single statute, under the SEC's authority, to 
facilitate greater tailoring of the requirements over time.
                                ------                                


        RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR SINEMA
                     FROM JOHN C. COATES IV

Q.1. One provision of the INDEX Act requires costs for 
implementing pass-through voting to be borne by the funds or 
their investment advisers. If enacted, how substantial would 
you expect these costs to be? How much of these costs would you 
expect to be passed on to retail investors?

A.1. If the INDEX Act were adopted as current drafted, and 
pass-through voting adopted by index fund advisers, I believe 
the costs would be substantial, and nearly all of those costs 
would be passed on to retail investors.
                                ------                                


        RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TILLIS
                     FROM JOHN C. COATES IV

Q.1. Following our discussion of the INDEX Act last week, I'd 
also like to touch on other actions that may be necessary in 
this space. I'm specifically interested in the duopoly of the 
proxy advisory firms ISS and Glass-Lewis, and would appreciate 
your thoughts on the matter.
    What actions as it relates to the proxy advisory firms may 
be helpful for policy makers to consider?

A.1. The SEC should actively monitor and report on whether 
proxy advisory firms are complying with their obligations to 
disclose conflicts of interest, how they are managing those 
conflicts, and whether those conflicts are causing any 
observable harm or bias in their advice. Congress should 
provide the SEC dedicated funding to study and report whether 
proxy advisory firms make objective, factual mistakes in their 
analysis, as many companies allege are common, but which 
current data suggests are extremely rare, especially when 
benchmarked against analysis by other investment professionals, 
such as research analysts.
                                ------                                


        RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR SINEMA
                       FROM CALEB GRIFFIN

Q.1. One provision of the INDEX Act requires costs for 
implementing pass-through voting to be borne by the funds or 
their investment advisers. If enacted, how substantial would 
you expect these costs to be? How much of these costs would you 
expect to be passed on to retail investors?

A.1. The cost of implementing pass-through voting is in many 
ways dependent on both the level of precision we require and 
the liability standard we impose. I believe we should impose a 
relatively low precision requirement and a relatively light 
liability standard in order to minimize the costs associated 
with pass-through voting.
    With respect to the precision requirement, the core 
question is how accurately asset managers must translate each 
investor's voting instructions into firm-level votes. As 
Professor Coates mentioned in his testimony, end-to-end vote 
confirmation in the broader proxy voting space is still a work 
in progress. \1\ With that in mind, we should be realistic 
about the level of precision we can expect when translating 
fund investors' voting instructions into actual, firm-level 
votes. Particularly in the early stages of implementing pass-
through voting, regulatory flexibility with respect to 
precision requirements would help ensure that burdens on asset 
managers and investors remain low.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ ``Considering the Index Fund Voting Process'', Hearing Before 
the Comm. on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs (2022) (Testimony of 
Professor John C. Coates IV).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    With respect to the liability standard, the central 
question is what happens if an asset manager falls short of the 
precision requirement in some respect. I believe that the 
applicable liability standards should be relatively light. For 
instance, a ``reasonable efforts'' standard or a ``good faith'' 
standard could be appropriate. As asset managers navigate the 
process of implementing pass-through voting, it may be 
appropriate to have an especially light liability standard 
during this transitional period, perhaps imposing liability 
only where there has been a ``systematic and sustained'' 
failure to adhere to investor input. Overall, the focus should 
be on giving voice to investors and democratizing the proxy 
voting process rather than creating new causes of action.
    Provided that precision requirements and liability 
standards are low, the main costs associated with pass-through 
voting would involve establishing the infrastructure to solicit 
and tabulate investor input. I estimate that those would be 
quite manageable, especially given that index funds such as 
BlackRock have already begun to develop such tools in-house.
    In particular, BlackRock has already expanded pass-through 
voting capabilities to institutional clients representing 47 
percent of all BlackRock index equity assets. \2\ The ``most 
popular approach'' among their clients is the option to 
``select from a menu of third-party proxy voting policies.'' 
\3\ This is very similar to what I referred to in my testimony 
as ``vote outsourcing''--rather than being locked in to an 
asset manager's voting policies, investors could instruct that 
their shares be voted in line with another third party of their 
choosing. The fact that such technology is already in use is 
perhaps the strongest argument for its cost-effectiveness and 
feasibility.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \2\ ``It's All About Choice'', BlackRock (2022), https://
www.blackrock.com/corporate/literature/publication/its-all-about-
choice.pdf.
     \3\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ------                                


        RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TILLIS
                       FROM CALEB GRIFFIN

Q.1. Following our discussion of the INDEX Act last week, I'd 
also like to touch on other actions that may be necessary in 
this space. I'm specifically interested in the duopoly of the 
proxy advisory firms ISS and Glass-Lewis, and would appreciate 
your thoughts on the matter.
    What actions as it relates to the proxy advisory firms may 
be helpful for policy makers to consider?

A.1. ISS and Glass Lewis collectively control greater than 90 
percent of the proxy advisory market. \1\ Although concerns 
about their market power have been present for some time, \2\ a 
consensus on how to deal with that power has proven elusive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     \1\ Paul Rose, ``Proxy Advisors and Market Power: A Review of 
Institutional Investor Robovoting'', Harv. L. Sch. F. on Corp. 
Governance (May 27, 2021), https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2021/05/27/
proxy-advisors-and-market-power-a-review-of-institutional-investor-
robovoting/.
     \2\ See, e.g., ``Concept Release on the U.S. Proxy System'', 
Release Nos. 34-62495, IC-3052, IC-29340 (July 22, 2010); ``Examining 
the Market Power and Impact of Proxy Advisory Firms'', Hearing Before 
the Subcomm. on Capital Markets and Government Sponsored Enterprises 
(2013).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One potential response is related to the proposals laid out 
in the INDEX Act. I believe that, in addition to its other 
benefits, pass-through voting represents an effective strategy 
to mitigate the power of proxy advisors. This is because a 
voting decision made by an individual investor typically 
replaces a decision made by either a proxy advisor or an asset 
manager. When pass-through voting transfers voting authority to 
individual investors, it shifts it away not just from asset 
managers, but also from the proxy advisors on whom asset 
managers often heavily rely. Thus, by granting individual 
investors a greater voice in corporate governance, policymakers 
could reduce the concentrated power in the hands of many other 
financial market actors, including both index fund managers and 
proxy advisors.
    In particular, ``vote outsourcing,'' or providing 
individual investors with the right to select their own 
representative who will vote on their behalf, has the potential 
to diversify the pool of advisors shaping proxy voting 
outcomes. If pass-through voting creates demand for such 
services, I believe dozens of organizations and nonprofits 
would provide voting recommendations, reducing the relative 
power of ISS and Glass Lewis while providing individual 
investors with a greater voice in the proxy voting process.
              Additional Material Supplied for the Record
    LETTER SUBMITTED BY KATHRYN FULTON, MANAGING DIRECTOR, BLACKROCK
    
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