[Senate Hearing 117-22]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                         S. Hrg. 117-22

                   DEVELOPING THE AVIATION WORKFORCE 
                          OF THE 21ST CENTURY

=======================================================================





                             FIELD HEARING

                               before the

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION SAFETY, 
                       OPERATIONS, AND INNOVATION 

                                 of the

                         COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,
                      SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________ 
                               

                              MAY 13, 2022

                               __________                              

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Commerce, Science, and 
                             Transportation 
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                           
                             
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                   
55-076 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024 










                
       SENATE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                   MARIA CANTWELL, Washington, Chair
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota             ROGER WICKER, Mississippi, Ranking
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii                 ROY BLUNT, Missouri
EDWARD MARKEY, Massachusetts         TED CRUZ, Texas
GARY PETERS, Michigan                DEB FISCHER, Nebraska
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             JERRY MORAN, Kansas
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JON TESTER, Montana                  MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              TODD YOUNG, Indiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MIKE LEE, Utah
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia                 Virginia
                                     RICK SCOTT, Florida
                                     CYNTHIA LUMMIS, Wyoming
                       Lila Helms, Staff Director
                 Melissa Porter, Deputy Staff Director
       George Greenwell, Policy Coordinator and Security Manager
                 John Keast, Republican Staff Director
            Crystal Tully, Republican Deputy Staff Director
                      Steven Wall, General Counsel
                                 ------                                

      SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION SAFETY, OPERATIONS, AND INNOVATION

KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona, Chair       TED CRUZ, Texas, Ranking
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
JON TESTER, Montana                  ROY BLUNT, Missouri
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JERRY MORAN, Kansas
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          MIKE LEE, Utah
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia             SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
                                         Virginia  
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on May 13, 2022.....................................     1
Statement of Senator Sinema......................................     1

                               Witnesses

Dana Donati, Chief Executive Officer, United Aviate Academy......     4
    Prepared statement...........................................     6
Anette M. Karlsson, Ph.D., Chancellor, Prescott, Arizona Campus, 
  Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University...........................     8
    Prepared statement...........................................    10
Jonathan G. Ornstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mesa 
  Air Group......................................................    12
    Prepared statement...........................................    15
Greg Wilson, Academic Dean for Applied Technology, Pima Community 
  College........................................................    17
    Prepared statement...........................................    18
Paul Ryder, First Officer UAI-MEC Secretary, Air Line Pilots 
  Association....................................................    20
    Prepared statement...........................................    21 
    
    
 
                   DEVELOPING THE AVIATION WORKFORCE 
                          OF THE 21ST CENTURY

                              ----------                              


                          FRIDAY, MAY 13, 2022

                               U.S. Senate,
     Subcommittee Aviation Safety, Operations, and 
                                        Innovation,
        Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation,
                                                      Goodyear, AZ.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11 a.m., at 
the United Aviate Academy, 1658 S. Litchfield Road, Building 
104, Room 125, Goodyear, Arizona 85338, Hon. Kyrsten Sinema, 
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senator Sinema [presiding.]

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KYRSTEN SINEMA, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

    Senator Sinema. Welcome to the Senate Subcommittee on 
Aviation Safety, Operations, and Innovation.
    I'd like to start by thanking everyone for joining us today 
here in sunny and gorgeous Goodyear, Arizona, for a field 
hearing of the Aviation Subcommittee.
    As you know, we generally hold our hearings in, Washington, 
D.C., and I am delighted to hold this hearing today in sunny 
and beautiful Arizona, much better than in Washington, D.C.
    Also being here at home in Arizona allows the Subcommittee 
to hear directly from Arizonans who spend their time thinking 
about aviation and particularly the aviation workforce.
    As we think about the aviation industry, safety is the most 
important priority and needs to remain the focus of all of our 
efforts. I recognize the efforts of aviation safety advocates, 
including the families who've lost loved ones in aviation 
accidents.
    For the United States to remain the global leader on 
aviation safety, we need to have both the infrastructure and 
the workforce in place to ensure safety. Regarding aviation 
infrastructure, I was honored to lead the effort to pass the 
bipartisan infrastructure law last year, and I appreciate the 
efforts of so many colleagues on both sides of the aisle who 
worked together to pass this historic bill that provides 
significant investments in highways, bridges, Western water 
projects, ports of entry, and public transit, and the largest 
investment in our Nation's aviation infrastructure in a 
generation.
    In total, the bipartisan infrastructure law includes an 
additional $25 billion for aviation over 5 years on top of 
existing aviation funding. The law dedicates $15 billion in 
formula funding directly to airports that can be used to 
improve runways, taxiways, and other critical aviation safety 
needs.
    Our bill also invests $5 billion to a new competitive grant 
program focused on modernizing airport terminals and $5 billion 
for air traffic control infrastructure.
    Over the next 5 years, Arizona airports will receive at 
least $360 million under the provisions of our infrastructure 
law. In 2022 alone, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport 
will receive over $41 million, Tucson International Airport 
will receive over $6 million, and the Phoenix Goodyear Airport, 
where we are located today, will receive nearly $300,000 for 
infrastructure improvements.
    This funding will enable our airports to complete the 
maintenance and modernization projects required to safely and 
efficiently move Arizonans around the country and welcome 
visitors to Arizona.
    On the typical day at Sky Harbor, over 1,200 flights arrive 
or depart with over 125,000 passengers passing through its 
gates.
    In addition to aviation infrastructure, the aviation 
workforce is another key element to ensuring aviation safety 
and ensuring that our aviation economy continues to expand and 
modernize.
    The COVID-19 pandemic represented the most significant 
challenge to our aviation system in decades, and I was proud to 
work with the leadership of the Commerce Committee and with 
other colleagues on the Aviation Subcommittee to advance 
bipartisan efforts to protect the aviation workforce from 
massive layoffs.
    If you'll recall back to the spring of 2019, passenger 
traffic had fallen 95 percent and absent congressional action, 
air carriers would have had to furlough hundreds of thousands 
of employees, but thanks to the Payroll Support Program and the 
CARES Act, we were able to protect those jobs and ensure 
continued air service for smaller communities that would have 
otherwise lost flights.
    On the manufacturing side of the industry, the Aviation 
Manufacturing Jobs Protection Program in the American Rescue 
Plan Act of 2021 provided key payroll support to aviation 
supply chain companies. This provision alone saved over 30,000 
jobs across the country.
    As we all look forward to a brighter future after COVID, we 
are experiencing a tight labor market across the entire economy 
with nationwide unemployment rates near historic lows for 
months.
    Given these national trends and reports of difficulties 
filling certain positions at regional airlines, now is a good 
time for us to check on the current state of the aviation 
workforce.
    While pilots are often a point of focus, it's important to 
also consider the state of the workforce for all aviation 
careers, including the maintenance workers who upkeep our 
aircraft and the manufacturers who build new aviation 
technologies, not to mention the flight attendants, air traffic 
controllers, airport workers, and countless others who 
contribute to a safe and enjoyable aviation system. We must 
ensure that we have the pipeline to satisfy the future demand 
for this wide range of employees.
    At a hearing in our Full Committee last week, Secretary of 
Transportation Pete Buttigieg identified similar concerns and 
indicated that we all needed to work together to support a 
stronger pipeline of people into the aviation field and in 
order to meet our future needs, I believe we must work harder 
to show all Americans that a career in aviation can be an 
accessible and rewarding option for them, regardless of their 
gender, race, or ethnicity.
    Currently, only about 5 percent of pilots are women and 
about 6 percent are people of color, according to Federal data. 
Cost is also an important consideration. Aviation training can 
be an expensive undertaking.
    As Americans and our small businesses are seeing increased 
prices, particularly with the rising cost of fuel, we should 
understand the impact of aviation fuel prices and other 
inflationary pressures on pilot training.
    As this committee looks forward to reauthorizing the 
Federal Aviation Administration next year, we will consider 
opportunities to strengthen the pipeline, support opportunities 
to diversify the workforce, and consider whether we need to 
refine existing programs, such as the FAA Aviation Workforce 
Development Grant Program, to ensure that they are effective 
tools for workforce development.
    And I'm so pleased today to be hosting this subcommittee at 
the United Aviate Academy in Goodyear. The academy opened in 
January with the goal to expand United Airlines' pipeline for 
pilot training and as a pilot academy owned by a major U.S. 
airline represents a new model for pilot training in the United 
States.
    United Airlines plans to train 5,000 new pilots at this 
school by 2030 and has the goal that half of the students will 
be women or people of color. So I want to start by saying thank 
you to the United Aviate Academy for hosting us today and for 
selecting Arizona as your home.
    This is an exciting time for Arizona aviation. Arizona is a 
national leader in many aspects of aviation and we are proud of 
the industry's important role in our state.
    Arizona's airports along with commercial aviation, 
aerospace manufacturing, and research and development 
contribute over $100 billion to our state's economy annually, 
provide over 200,000 Arizona jobs, and indirectly support 
hundreds of thousands of other non-aviation jobs.
    We have an excellent panel today with witnesses 
representing our host, the United Aviate Academy, along with an 
Arizona-based regional airline, a representative from the Air 
Line Pilots Association who's helped build the Aviate Academy, 
and two Arizona institution of higher education that develop 
our aviation workforce.
    Our panel will consider the state of the aviation 
workforce, how to ensure that we have the appropriate pipeline 
of aviation workers for the future, how to ensure that our 
aviation workforce is drawing talented professionals from all 
backgrounds, and ultimately how to ensure that the U.S. 
aviation system remains the gold standard for the world. So 
again thank you all for joining us today.
    Now I'll introduce our witnesses for today's hearing. Our 
first witness is Dana Donati. Ms. Donati is the CEO of the 
United Aviate Academy, a position she has held since August 
2021. Ms. Donati has over two decades of experience as a pilot, 
pilot instructor, and aviation training executive.
    Ms. Donati, thank you for joining us today and you're 
recognized for your opening statement.

   STATEMENT OF DANA DONATI, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, UNITED 
                         AVIATE ACADEMY

    Ms. Donati. Good morning, Chairwoman Sinema and members of 
the Committee.
    I am pleased to be here today to discuss United Airlines 
and United Aviate Academy's efforts to develop and diversify 
the aviation workforce.
    I would like to thank the members of the Committee, 
Congress, and the Federal Government for their dedication and 
commitment to ensuring the future success of U.S. aviation.
    As the aviation industry continues to rebound from the 
impact of COVID-19, we are focused on passengers returning to 
travel today as well as our long-term growth plans. United will 
add 500 aircraft to our fleet in the next 5 years and is 
working hard to ensure a robust workforce, including pilots, 
flight attendants, and maintenance technicians.
    Specifically, we have plans to hire and train 10,000 new 
pilots over the next decade, half of them will come from our 
Academy cadets.
    United decided to invest in our future pilots by creating 
United Aviate Academy with the goal to recruit and train the 
highest quality, most diverse pilots in the industry.
    I would like to thank the United Master Executive Council, 
ALPA, and my fellow witness Paul Ryder for their continued 
partnership to build the best flight academy in aviation.
    On January 27 we celebrated the opening of our Academy at 
Phoenix Goodyear Airport, the only flight school wholly owned 
by a major airline. The academy has an FAA Part 141 
certification, the highest quality certification for a flight 
school, and also holds accreditation from the Department of 
Education-approved accrediting commission of career schools and 
colleges.
    Becoming a United pilot is one of the most lucrative 
aviation careers currently available and both the Academy and 
our Aviate Program provide pathways to that career.
    Once a pilot has completed their training at the Academy or 
through an Aviate program partner flight school, we offer a 
variety of next steps in the career path to build quality hours 
toward their commercial airline transport pilot certificate. 
These include options to work as a certified flight instructor 
or join one of our Part 135 carrier partners. Upon receiving 
their ATP, they can fly for one of many United Express partners 
before progressing to United.
    Moreover, we offer improved career development, mentoring, 
and access to United pilots as well as learning tools, access 
to senior leadership, site visits and tours, and certain travel 
privileges.
    However, the financial challenges of becoming a pilot can 
be a barrier, particularly for women and people of color. 
Earning an ATP in the United States can cost more than a 
$100,000 and requires 1,500 hours of flight time.
    We are working to reduce this financial barrier with 
scholarship programs and innovative financing options through 
partnerships, including United and JPMorgan Chase joint 
commitment to fund nearly $2.4 million in scholarships for 
future aviators attending the Academy.
    We cannot solve the financial challenge alone and welcome 
partnerships with the government in making aviation careers 
more accessible to the next generation.
    We support continued and enhanced funding for the aviation 
workforce development grants for aircraft pilots and aviation 
maintenance technical workers and passage of the Flight 
Education Access Act which would provide expanded loan amounts 
and payment deferral for pilots to help reduce the financial 
challenges for those pursuing a career as an airline pilot.
    Beyond just recognizing the lack of diversity in the 
aviation field, United Airlines and the Academy are taking real 
action to create change in the industry. United leads the 
industry in the number of pilots who are women and people of 
color but there's still a long way to go.
    Today we have 132 students, 77 percent of whom are women or 
people of color, who are working to complete a rigorous year-
long training program that sets them up for a career that 
reflects United's high standards with a goal for annual 
enrollment of 500 students, and in the larger Aviate Pathway 
Program, United has also partnered with historically black 
colleges and universities as well as partnerships with 
organizations, like Sisters of the Sky, Women in Aviation 
International, Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals, 
Latino Pilots Association, Professional Asian Pilots 
Association, and National Gay Pilots Association, to identify 
top talent and recruit them into the Aviate Program.
    By working directly with these organizations, we are able 
to engage prospective students and create awareness about the 
career of their dreams.
    Our Academy is providing top tier training to all students 
with the unique curriculum and access to the most 
technologically advanced aircraft in general aviation, 
providing an unparalleled training experience that goes above 
and beyond typical pilot training efforts.
    The curriculum includes upset prevention and recovery 
training which is a comprehensive pilot training program 
designed to help prevent the Number One fatal threat to air 
safety, loss of control in flight.
    Additionally, Part 120, Behavior, and Part 141, Training 
Program, ensure students are well prepared for careers in a 
commercial aviation environment. The curriculum, mentoring, and 
aircraft access are all part of what makes the student 
experience of the Academy so unique and successful.
    In conclusion, as we look ahead, we envision a robust 
future for United Aviate Academy.
    I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the incredible 
students we have here at the Academy. Their dedication to the 
aviation industry will ensure a successful future not only for 
United and the Aviate Academy but the greater economy at large.
    I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this 
committee and look forward to answering any questions you may 
have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Donati follows:]

      Prepared Statement of Dana Donati, Chief Executive Officer, 
                         United Aviate Academy
    Good morning, Chairwoman Sinema, and members of the Committee. I am 
pleased to be here today to discuss United Airlines and the United 
Aviate Academy efforts to develop and diversify the aviation workforce 
and build the greatest airline in the history of aviation. I would like 
to thank the members of this Committee, Congress, and the Federal 
government for their dedication and commitment to ensuring the future 
success of this vital part of the U.S. economy.
    As you all know, the COVID-19 pandemic presented unprecedented 
challenges for the aviation industry at large. Yet, even during some of 
the most difficult times, we kept our plans squarely focused on the 
future and made strategic decisions based on the optimistic outlook 
that demand would ultimately return. Throughout the past two years, 
strong support for protecting the aviation workforce and saving jobs 
never wavered and that is why I am speaking to you today.
Long-Term Pilot Supply
    As the aviation industry continues to rebound from the impact of 
COVID-19, we are focused on passengers returning to travel today as 
well as our long-term growth plans. United will add 500 aircraft to our 
fleet in the next five years and to meet the demand, United is working 
hard to ensure a robust workforce, including pilots, flight attendants, 
and maintenance technicians. Specifically, we have plans to hire and 
train 10,000 new pilots over the next decade, half of whom will come 
from our United Aviate Academy cadets. Many of our competitors also 
plan to hire a large number of pilots in the coming years, so United 
decided to invest in our future pilots by creating the United Aviate 
Academy. Our goal is to recruit and train the highest quality, most 
diverse pilots in the industry. I would also like to thank the United 
Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association (UA ALPA) 
and my fellow witness, Paul Ryder, for their continued partnership to 
build the best flight academy in aviation.
State-of-the-Art United Aviate Academy Facility
    On January 27, 2022, the United Aviate Academy, the only flight 
school wholly-owned by a major airline, opened at Phoenix Goodyear 
Airport. The United Aviate Academy has Part 141 approved Private, 
Instrument, Commercial Single-Engine, Commercial Multi-Engine, 
Certificated Flight Instructor, Certificated Flight Instructor 
Instrument, and Multi-engine Instructor certification--the highest 
quality certification for a flight school. The Academy also holds 
accreditation from the Department of Education approved Accrediting 
Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC).
    The United Aviate Academy itself is an ideal environment for 
students to not only learn but truly thrive in an aviation career. Our 
340,000 square-foot facility, which the United Aviate Academy leases 
from the City of Phoenix, provides aspiring pilots with industry-
leading resources, equipment, and accommodations. Other benefits 
include our fleet of late-model Cirrus SR-20 series single-engine 
aircraft, which feature advanced safety characteristics; nearly 50,000 
square feet of classroom/office space; multiple aircraft hangars; 
dormitory rooms for student housing with ample room for expansion; 
proximity to many auxiliary airfields in the Phoenix area; and most 
importantly, favorable weather for year-round flight training.
The United Aviate Academy's Mission: Love to Fly, Born to Lead
    United Airlines' innovative United Aviate Academy pilot development 
program provides those who aspire to a career as a United Captain with 
the most direct route to achieving that goal. The United Aviate Academy 
is built to accommodate pilots of all experience levels--from those 
with zero hours to professional pilots already flying for one of United 
Airlines' regional partners.
    For instance, an aspiring aviator who joins the United Aviate 
Academy in Phoenix with no prior flying experience can become a 
private, licensed pilot within two months, training we provide for 
free. Within a year, they can start earning income after receiving 
their ratings and certificates. Within five years, they can become a 
United Airlines pilot.
Direct Pathways to Becoming a United Airlines Pilot
    Becoming a United Airlines pilot is one of the most lucrative 
aviation careers currently available. United currently has over 12,000 
pilots, and Captains of United's Boeing 787s and 777s can earn more 
than $350,000 per year and generous benefits, including one of the 
highest 401(k) employer contributions in the Nation.
    In addition to our Aviate Academy, our Aviate program offers a 
career path program for pilots, with increased transparency and clarity 
along the path from program entry to flying for United. Once a pilot 
has completed their training at the Academy or through an Aviate 
program partner flight school, we offer a variety of next steps in the 
career path to build quality hours toward their commercial Air 
Transport Pilot license (ATP). These include options to work as a 
certified flight instructor or join one of our Part 135 carrier 
partners. Once a pilot receives their ATP, they can fly for one of the 
many United Express partners including Mesa, Commute Air, Air 
Wisconsin, and GoJet. Moreover, we offer improved career development, 
mentoring, and access to United pilots as well as learning tools and 
immediate inclusion in the United family, all with access to senior 
leadership, site visits and tours, and certain travel privileges.
    However, for many people, achieving this amount of success is 
beyond their wildest imagination due to the financial challenges of 
becoming a pilot. Earning an ATP in the U.S. can cost more than 
$100,000 and requires 1,500 hours of flight time. The cost of becoming 
a pilot is a significant barrier to entry for many, particularly women 
and people of color. We are working to reduce this barrier at the 
United Aviate Academy with scholarship programs and innovative 
financing options through our credit union partnership. United and 
JPMorgan Chase & Co. have renewed last year's commitment to fund nearly 
$2.4 million in scholarships for future aviators attending the United 
Aviate Academy. But we cannot solve the financial challenge alone and 
welcome partnership with the government in making aviation careers more 
accessible to the next generation.
    We strongly support continued and enhanced funding for the Aviation 
Workforce Development Grants for Aircraft Pilots and Aviation 
Maintenance Technical Workers, which was part of the 2018 FAA 
reauthorization legislation. Additionally, Congress should pass the 
Flight Education Access Act that we expect to be introduced this 
summer. This would provide expanded loan amounts and payment deferral 
for pilots and help reduce the financial challenges for those who want 
to pursue a career as an airline pilot.
The United Aviate Academy's Inaugural Class
    Beyond just recognizing the lack of diversity in the aviation 
field, United Airlines and the United Aviate Academy are taking real 
action to create change in the industry. Attracting, retaining, and 
advancing women and people of color in aviation is critical to the U.S. 
aviation industry's safety, sustainability, and ability to innovate. 
United leads the industry in the number of pilots who are women and 
people of color but there is still a long way to go. According to the 
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 5.6 percent of pilots across the 
industry are women and only 6 percent are people of color.
    This past January, the inaugural class of 30 United Aviate Academy 
students began their studies, 80 percent of whom are women or people of 
color, to complete a rigorous, year-long training program that sets 
them up for a career that reflects United's high standard of 
professionalism and deep commitment to delivering a safe, caring, 
dependable, and efficient travel experience. As of April 25, 2022, the 
United Aviate Academy has more than 15,000 current applications, and 
more than 10,000 of those applications are from diverse candidates 
(American Indian/Alaska Native, Asian, Black/African American, 
Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, Hispanic/Latino and not disclosed). More 
than 4,000 are women--987 are Black/African American, 858 are Hispanic/
Latino, 31 are American Indian/Alaska Native, and 347 are Asian.
    For the inaugural class, the United Aviate Academy received more 
than 7,500 applications from aspiring pilots around the country in less 
than six months, with nearly 75 percent of those applicants being women 
or people of color. After completing their training at the Academy, 
students can build flight and leadership experience while working 
within the United Aviate Academy pilot development ecosystem at partner 
universities, professional flight training organizations, and United 
Express carriers on their way to becoming United pilots.
    In the larger Aviate pathway program, United Airlines has also 
partnered with historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs), 
Delaware State University, Elizabeth City State University, and Hampton 
University to identify top talent and recruit them into the United 
Aviate program. Through the partnership, students will have the 
opportunity to join the United Aviate Academy and Aviate program and 
connect with dedicated ambassadors and coaches who will help guide them 
on the path to a United flight deck.
The United Aviate Academy Curriculum Ensures Quality
    The United Aviate Academy is providing top-tier training to all 
students. The unique curriculum and access to state-of-the-art 
equipment truly provide an unparalleled training experience that goes 
above and beyond typical pilot training efforts. United Aviate Academy 
students are connected with United pilot mentors, they have access to 
Cirrus aircraft for single-engine, and currently using Seminoles for 
multi-engine but transitioning the multi-engine fleet to a more 
advanced aircraft.
    The curriculum includes Upset Prevention and Recovery Training 
(UPRT) which is a comprehensive pilot training program designed to help 
prevent the #1 fatal threat to air safety--Loss of Control In-Flight 
(LOC-I). Additionally, Part 121 behavior in a Part 141 training program 
ensures students are well prepared for careers in the commercial 
aviation environment, including check rides.
    The curriculum, mentoring, and aircraft access are all part of what 
makes the student experience at the United Aviate Academy so unique and 
successful.
Strategic Partnerships
    The United Aviate Academy and United's Aviate program are built on 
our important strategic partnerships. We are grateful for our 
relationship with the United Airlines' Air Line Pilots Association, 
which plays an integral role in driving more qualified candidates to 
the doors of the United Aviate Academy and ultimately expanding the 
pilot pipeline.
    In addition to our union partnership, we are also reaching 
candidates through our partnerships with Sisters of the Skies (SOS), 
Women in Aviation International (WAI), Organization of Black Aerospace 
Professionals (OBAP), Latino Pilot Association (LPA), Professional 
Asian Pilot Association (PAPA), and National Gay Pilots Association 
(NGPA)--allowing us to engage with potential candidates unlike ever 
before. By working directly with these organizations, we are able to 
educate prospective students about the benefits of becoming a pilot and 
explore scholarship opportunities.
Conclusion
    As we look ahead--we envision a robust future for the United Aviate 
Academy--one that has an even greater impact on the field of aviation 
than it does today.
    United Airlines started the United Aviate Academy in an effort to 
truly determine its own destiny. We foresee significant and strong 
demand in the coming decades, and we believe United's growth plan will 
reach its full potential with the help of the United Aviate Academy 
recruiting, training, and developing the highest quality of diverse 
pilots.
    Before I close, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the 
incredible students we have here at the United Aviate Academy. Their 
dedication to the aviation industry will ensure a successful future not 
only for United Airlines and the United Aviate Academy, but the greater 
economy at large.
    I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this Committee and 
look forward to answering any questions you may have.

    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Our second witness is Dr. Anette Karlsson. Since 2019 Dr. 
Karlsson has served as the Chancellor for the Prescott Campus 
of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
    Dr. Karlsson earned her Ph.D. in Mechanical and Aerospace 
Engineering and has extensive experience in academia and with 
aerospace manufacturers.
    Dr. Karlsson, thank you for joining us today and you're 
recognized for your opening statement.

            STATEMENT OF ANETTE M. KARLSSON, Ph.D.,

             CHANCELLOR, PRESCOTT, ARIZONA CAMPUS,

              EMBRY-RIDDLE AERONAUTICAL UNIVERSITY

    Dr. Karlsson. Thank you, Senator Sinema. Thank you for 
giving me a chance to talk about the contribution Embry-Riddle 
Aeronautical University has to the aviation industry.
    We are one of the top producers of U.S. commercial airline 
pilots in the country and our mission is to prepare students 
for productive careers and leadership roles in business, 
government, and the military.
    Through our commitment to excellence in education, we are 
preparing a highly qualified future aviation talent pool, 
building the current workforce capacity to support U.S. 
competitiveness.
    I will briefly summarize some key challenges and suggest 
potential solutions and opportunities for the future aviation 
workforce.
    First, I would like to repeat what I've already said that 
the aviation workforce shortage is real. It has been projected 
that we will need about 130,000 new pilots and 132,000 new 
technicians by 2040 in North America alone.
    This represents a growing problem for America's 
competitiveness because aviation is a major driver of our 
economy. FAA reports that all civil aviation activities amount 
to more than 5 percent of the U.S. Gross Domestic Product 
supporting almost 11 million jobs.
    At Embry-Riddle, our students are securing jobs before they 
graduate, but many more graduates are needed to fulfill future 
needs. We must tap into the entire talent pool, meaning all 
women and men from all walks of life.
    This March, FAA Women in Aviation Advisory Board concluded 
that attracting, retaining, and advancing women in aviation is 
critical to the U.S. aviation industry's safety, 
sustainability, profitability, and ability to innovate.
    Only about 2.6 percent of aviation maintenance technicians 
and 4.6 percent of airline transport pilots in the United 
States are women. These statistics have not changed much in the 
last few decades, but at Embry-Riddle we do see progress every 
day.
    Last month, for example, Embry-Riddle sent an all-female 
team to the Worldwide Aerospace Maintenance Competition. Such 
visibility is key. Students need role models and mentors to 
pursue a profession starting at their earliest stages of their 
education.
    Train the trainer efforts could turn teachers, guidance 
counselors, and others into Ambassadors for aviation. Young 
people also need to be introduced to the full range of aviation 
careers, airport managers, flight positions, aerospace 
engineers, and so on. This is why Embry-Riddle offers summer 
camps and open online courses to introduce young students to 
aviation.
    Financial support for aviation students remains paramount. 
To address that need, Embry-Riddle collaborates with industry 
partners. For example, the Boeing Company established an 
endowment to provide opportunities to broad spectrum of 
students, including veterans, women, and people of color.
    In addition, Embry-Riddle and our airline partners offer 
pathway programs where our students receive incentives and 
training working toward first officer position which is their 
first job as a commercial pilot.
    Finally, Embry-Riddle investigates virtual reality training 
system coupled with in-person training. Even though we've seen 
some positive results, rigorous research is needed to possibly 
validate VR technologies as an efficient training tool.
    Currently, FAA does not allow pilots to count time in VR 
flight simulation to its total pilot hours, but we've seen it 
can help them move toward their similar flights and so on 
quicker.
    In closing, our suggestion for the aviation industry's 
workforce are threefold.
    First, we're optimistic that implementation of the 
recommendations set forth in the FAA Women in Aviation Advisory 
Board report will help the industry to reach a much broader 
talent pool, including women and under-represented minorities, 
thereby enhancing the aviation workforce.
    Second, we note that European Aviation Safety Agency 
qualified its first VR-based flight training device late last 
year. However, further research in the United States will be 
needed to evaluate the effectiveness of such training programs, 
but it could possibly lead to an integral part of the flight 
training programs.
    Third, we will continue to urge industry-university 
partnership to provide aviation students with financial 
support, mentorship, and encouragement they need to succeed.
    So thank you again for this opportunity. I am looking 
forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Karlsson follows:]

Prepared Statement of Anette M. Karlsson, Ph.D., Chancellor, Prescott, 
          Arizona Campus, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
    Good morning, Chairwoman Sinema, Ranking Member Cruz, and 
subcommittee members. Thank you for this opportunity to discuss the 
U.S. aviation workforce. Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University is the 
Nation's top producer of U.S. commercial airline pilots, with a fleet 
of training aircraft that makes us the size of a small regional 
airline.
    Embry-Riddle's mission is to prepare students for productive 
careers and leadership roles in business, government agencies, and the 
military. Through our commitment to excellence in education, we are 
preparing a highly qualified future aviation talent pool and building 
current workforce capacity to support U.S. competitiveness.
    I will briefly summarize key challenges and suggest potential 
solutions and opportunities.
    First, I would like to emphasize that the aviation workforce 
shortage is real and it is a critical problem for the U.S. economy. 
Between 2021 and 2040, The Boeing Company has projected, that the 
aviation industry will need 612,000 new pilots and 626,000 new aviation 
maintenance technicians.\1\ Across North America, specifically, Boeing 
estimates that we will need 130,000 new pilots and 132,000 technicians 
by 2040.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ ``Pilot and Technician Outlook: 2021-2040.'' The Boeing 
Company, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This represents a growing problem for American competitiveness 
because aviation is a major driver of our economy. The U.S. Federal 
Aviation Administration has reported that all civil aviation activity 
amounted to more than 5.2 percent of the U.S. Gross Domestic Product, 
supporting10.9 million jobs.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ ``The Economic Impacts of Civil Aviation in the U.S. Economy: 
State Supplement.'' U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Aviation 
Administration, November 2020, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    At Embry-Riddle, graduates of our flight and maintenance degree 
programs are securing jobs before they receive their diplomas. But, 
many more graduates are needed to fill jobs. That will require tapping 
the entire talent pool--meaning men and women from all walks of life, 
including veterans and members of the military who are transitioning 
back into civilian life. In March this year, the FAA's Women in 
Aviation Advisory Board concluded that ``attracting, retaining, and 
advancing women in aviation is critical to the U.S. aviation industry's 
safety, sustainability, profitability, and ability to innovate.'' \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ ``Breaking Barriers for Women in Aviation: Flight Plan for the 
Future.'' U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, Women in Aviation 
Advisory Board, March 2022, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We agree that cultivating transformative thinking by recruiting a 
diversity of perspectives is particularly important at this moment, as 
the aviation industry faces both opportunities and challenges--related 
not only to the workforce shortage, but also to increasing aviation 
cybersecurity threats and the exponential growth of commercial space 
enterprise. We, therefore, applaud United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby, who 
last year announced that the United Aviate Academy would recruit from 
the broadest possible spectrum of talent, with half of its student 
pilots being exceptionally qualified women and people of color.\4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ ``United Sets New Diversity Goal: 50 percent of Students at New 
Pilot Training Academy to be Women and People of Color.'' United 
Airlines, April 6, 2021, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Such bold steps are critical to ensure a robust aviation workforce 
for the future. Nationwide, only 2.6 percent of all aviation 
maintenance technicians and 4.6 percent are Airline Transport Pilots in 
the United States are women.\5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Lutte, Rebecca K. ``Women in Aviation: A Workforce Report 2021 
Edition.'' Aviation Institute, University of Nebraska at Omaha, in 
cooperation with Women in Aviation International, December 2021, 
.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Although these overall statistics haven't changed much in 
decades,\6\ progress is possible. Many airlines have in fact achieved 
significantly greater equality on the flight deck than the national 
averages.\7\ And at Embry-Riddle, we see progress every day. Last 
month, for example, Embry-Riddle sent an all-female team to the 
worldwide Aerospace Maintenance Competition. A recent panel of highly 
accomplished aviation graduates were all women, including three who are 
women of color. We were also proud to have six of our graduates on the 
Women in Aviation Advisory Board--among a remarkable assemblage of 30 
female CEOs, captains, first officers, university presidents, and other 
leaders.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ Ibid.
    \7\ ``How Major Airlines are Measuring Up On Gender Equality in the 
Flight Deck.'' International Society of Women Airline Pilots, 2021, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That level of visibility is key. In order to know that they can 
``be it,'' students must ``see it''--in the form of role models and 
mentors, and through confidence-building camps, at the earliest stages 
of education. Young people also need to be introduced to a full range 
of aviation careers--from mechanic to airport manager, flight 
physician, accident investigator, and more. Raising awareness is why 
initiatives such as Women in Aviation International's Girls in Aviation 
Day are so essential. It's also why Embry-Riddle offers summer camps 
and MOOCs, or massively open online courses, to introduce girls to 
aviation.
    Most importantly, financial support for aviation students remains 
paramount. The FAA's Women in Aviation Advisory Board pointed out in 
its report that, ``Next to culture, cost is the biggest barrier for 
women wanting to enter aviation careers.'' \8\ To address that need, 
Embry-Riddle collaborates with industry partners. For example, The 
Boeing Company established an endowment to provide opportunities to a 
broader spectrum of aviators, including exceptional veterans, women, 
and people of color. We are partnering with Spirit Airlines in a 
similar fashion. Embry-Riddle and its airline partners also offer 
career pilot pathway programs for outstanding male and female aviation 
students. Through these pathway programs, exceptional students receive 
incentives and training while working toward first officer positions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ ``Breaking Barriers for Women in Aviation: Flight Plan for the 
Future.'' U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, Women in Aviation 
Advisory Board, March 2022, .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Finally, Embry-Riddle is speeding the flow of aviators into the 
workforce by leveraging virtual reality training systems, coupled with 
in-person training. Our ``VR-first'' training program allowed a group 
of 58 flight students to reduce the time it took them to complete a 
first solo flight by more than 30 percent. VR-first training shows 
promise as one way to help meet the aviation industry's workforce 
needs, but rigorous research is needed to validate VR technologies for 
specific uses; currently, the FAA does not allow pilots to count time 
in VR flight simulations toward Total Pilot Hours.
    In closing, our suggestions for the aviation industry's workforce 
are three-fold:

  1.  First, we are optimistic that implementation of the 
        recommendations set forth in the FAA Women in Aviation Advisory 
        Board report will help the industry reach a much broader talent 
        pool, thereby enhancing the aviation workforce.

  2.  Second, we would note that the European Union Aviation Safety 
        Agency qualified its first virtual reality-based flight 
        training device last year. We hope that further research in the 
        United States will soon validate the effectiveness of high-
        quality virtual reality-based training technologies, leading to 
        their broader acceptance as an integral part of flight-training 
        programs.

  3.  Third, we will continue to urge new and more innovative industry-
        university partnerships to provide aviation students with the 
        financial support, mentorship, and encouragement they need to 
        succeed.

    Thank you again for this opportunity. I look forward to answering 
your questions.

    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Our next witness is Jonathan Ornstein. He is the Chairman 
and the CEO of Mesa Air Group, which operates Mesa Airlines, a 
regional airline headquartered in Phoenix.
    Mr. Ornstein has been the CEO of Mesa since 1998, making 
him one of the longest-serving CEOs in U.S. aviation.
    Thank you for joining us today. You're recognized for your 
opening statement.

          STATEMENT OF JONATHAN G. ORNSTEIN, CHAIRMAN 
          AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MESA AIR GROUP

    Mr. Ornstein. Thank you, Chair Sinema, and I told you I'd 
need a pilot to figure this out.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Ornstein. OK. Thank you, Chair Sinema and Members of 
the Committee.
    As she mentioned, my name is Jonathan Ornstein. I'm the 
Chairman and CEO of Mesa here in Phoenix. I began my aviation 
career on the ramp throwing bags at a little company in Los 
Angeles. I've been CEO for 23 years which, as you mentioned, 
makes me maybe the longest-serving CEO but also by default 
probably makes me the dumbest.
    I want to thank you very much for holding this hearing on 
such an important issue. I promised my advisors I'd stick to 
the script, but given the critical importance of this issue, 
I'm going to apologize in advance if I get a little emotional 
or passionate.
    You know, I wish it could be boiled down to facts on a 
piece of paper, but this is really about real people's lives, 
their future, and the families that they provide for.
    Mesa was founded in 1982 in Farmington, New Mexico, by a 
true visionary in aviation and my mentor, Mechanic Larry Risley 
and his wife Janie. I joined Mesa in 1987. We had six small 
aircraft. By 1992 we had over 200 aircraft, 5,000 employees, 
and we were serving 300 communities in 46 states flying 19- and 
30-seat aircraft.
    Unfortunately, in 1995 new regulations were adopted that 
significantly impacted our costs negatively. While in 1990 
there were over 2,000 19- and 30-seat passenger aircraft in 
service, today there is not a single one. An entire industry 
was wiped out and service into cities like Bullhead, Sierra 
Vista, Show Low, and many more across the country were cutoff 
from the national transportation system as a result.
    I've been around for quite awhile, as we've discussed, and 
I can tell you firsthand and on the front line that the pilot 
shortage is the single greatest threat to the industry I have 
witnessed since 9/11.
    As we discussed, we've already lost all the 19- and 30-seat 
aircraft, and I fear this trend will continue and the 50-seat 
regional jet will be next. With 57 percent of all commercial 
airports served by aircraft with 50 seats or less, this could 
be catastrophic. Without immediate action, make no mistake, 
this will happen again.
    An example of this risk is the recently announced 
withdrawal of service by Sky West, arguably the most successful 
regional airline in the world. They pulled service from 29 
rural cities, citing a pilot shortage.
    It is estimated that airline service in small communities 
provides over one million jobs, $41 billion in wages and tax 
revenue, and nearly $153 billion in total economic value.
    While Mesa survived the 1990s only after a trip through 
bankruptcy, our industry is facing similar circumstances today. 
I am deeply concerned about the future of regional aviation and 
more personally the future of 3,500 Mesa employees, thousands 
of whom are here in Arizona, many who have worked with me for 
decades and have become good friends.
    So just how bad is the pilot shortage? Well, last month 
alone we lost almost 5 percent of our pilot workforce in 1 
month as major airlines began hiring as we exited the pandemic.
    Our pilots are exceptionally well qualified and prime 
targets for major carriers. Regional airlines simply cannot 
keep up with the current level of attrition given the extensive 
training we perform for each new pilot and, more importantly, 
the shrinking pool of incoming qualified candidates.
    According to Federal labor statistics, the industry needs 
to hire 14,500 pilots a year until 2030 just to keep up. Last 
year there were 4,346 commercial licenses granted last year. 
This has to change.
    We believe the sharp decline in new licenses and concurrent 
pilot shortage we are experiencing has been driven primarily by 
legislation that has significantly increased the time and 
expense for an individual to become qualified to fly commercial 
aircraft, a classic barrier to entry.
    While the U.S. is generally considered a leader in aviation 
safety, it is interesting to note that no other country in the 
world has adopted these regulations, not a single one, and 
every day foreign pilots who would be deemed unqualified to fly 
in the U.S. are flying wide-body international aircraft into 
congested air space over places like New York and Los Angeles. 
It just doesn't make sense.
    So what can be done? Despite the fact that of the 59 
accidents since 1940s involving pilot error, only one pilot had 
less than 1,500 hours. I appreciate that a significant 
modification to the rule may be remote and we should however 
explore other ways to mitigate its negative impact on pilot 
supply and consider the quality of training over the quantity 
of total hours. This is not dissimilar to the way the military 
trains its pilots.
    We have to ask ourselves is a pilot more qualified renting 
a Cessna 172 and flying circles over the Pacific Ocean for 2 
hours or spending 2 hours in the state-of-the-art simulator 
shooting missed approaches into LaGuardia? Common sense would 
dictate that hours should not count equally.
    I strongly recommend the Committee encourage the FAA to use 
the authority it already has that Congress gave it under the 
2010 Airline Safety Act to create alternative high-quality 
structured training pathways over pure 1,500 quantity.
    With the advancements in technology, there is little doubt 
we are capable of producing safer, better qualified pilots 
without spending upwards of 6 years, hundreds of thousands of 
dollars, and flying around in circles for 1,500 hours.
    We would also recommend allowing qualified foreign pilots 
easier entry into the U.S. Many countries around the world are 
in fact experiencing a surplus of pilots. This provides an 
opportunity to relieve much of the pressure brought on by the 
current shortage and would allow carriers to avoid painful 
reductions in service, maintain a reasonable fare structure 
which was up over 18 percent month over month last month, and 
enhance safety by lowering the velocity of attrition. Pilots 
should be offered preferential access much like nurses and 
indeed fashion models.
    Additionally, I recommend raising the maximum pilot age 
from 65 to 68, even if temporarily. Certainly no one would 
question their experience and it just was brought to my 
attention we need to do that quickly because my chief pilot, 
Mike Whitman, who I've known for 35 years, is about to turn 65, 
as am I. So, anyway, I'd like to see if we could do that 
quickly.
    A longer-term solution is support of institutions like 
United's Aviate Academy. We need strong commitment and more 
student aid to help get more pilots into the system. The high 
cost of educating new pilots not only limits the number of 
potential pilots, but significantly hurts any efforts at 
diversity of the profession which has been sadly historically 
lacking.
    With student loans below the actual cost of flight 
education, aspiring pilots are forced to make up tens of 
thousands of dollars out of pocket.
    Finally, Madam Chair, I strongly encourage you to request 
the GAO study of the impact on current regulations have on the 
pilot shortage and its bearing on local communities.
    As importantly, this study should also look into how these 
regulations have exacerbated the lack of pilot diversity and 
what steps can be taken to address these problems.
    Many of these recommendations can be administered through 
the Biden White House and the Department of Transportation and 
I respectfully ask you as Chair of the Aviation Subcommittee to 
encourage them to do so.
    I am extremely grateful for the work you and your 
colleagues did on providing our industry what was really life-
saving support of the PSP Program. That support provided was 
indispensable in keeping thousands of jobs and preventing a 
potential collapse of U.S. aviation.
    At this point, I've got to clarify at this point, we're not 
asking for any more money, but to ask for common sense policy, 
changes to allow our industry to continue to provide both the 
highest level of safety and the service that our country has 
come to depend on.
    I thank you for your time and look forward to talking more 
about these solutions throughout the hearing. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ornstein follows:]

    Prepared Statement of Jonathan G. Ornstein, Chairman and Chief 
                   Executive Officer, Mesa Air Group
    Chair Sinema and members of the Committee, my name is Jonathan 
Ornstein and I am the Chairman and CEO of Mesa Airlines based right 
here in Arizona. I've been CEO for 23 years which makes me the longest 
serving airline CEO, and probably the dumbest.
    Thank you for holding this hearing on such an important issue for 
our industry and for my opportunity to provide testimony on the matter.
    Mesa Air was founded in 1982 in a small airport in Farmington, New 
Mexico by a true visionary in aviation and my mentor, mechanic Larry 
Risley.
    When I joined the company in 1986 we had 6 aircraft. By 1992, we 
had over 200 aircraft, with 5000 employees flying to over 300 small 
communities in 46 states using 19-30 seat aircraft. Then there was a 
rule change in 1995 that significantly increased our costs. I was 
outspoken against it at the time and felt it would jeopardize the 
regional airline industry. At the time there were over 2,500 aircraft 
in service. Today not a single 19-30 seat regional aircraft provides 
commercial air service in the US. An entire industry operating into 
smaller, rural cities such as Bull Head City, Sierra Vista, Show Low, 
and many more across the country has been entirely wiped out.
    While Mesa survived due to the development of the regional jet, the 
industry is facing almost identical circumstances today as we did 25 
years ago. I am deeply concerned about the communities that we serve 
and more personally, I am deeply concerned about the 3,500 employees at 
Mesa, many of whom have worked with me for decades.
    While Mesa has always looked to the future, and today we are a 
leader in decarbonization, but unfortunately, if current trends 
continue, we will be challenged to be around to see this new technology 
come to fruition. We have already lost all 19-30 seat commercial 
passenger aircraft and I fear it will be the 50 seat regional aircraft 
next. 57 percent of all airports with commercial service were only 
served by aircraft with 50-seat or less. We have to to prevent this 
from happening.
    Madam Chair, today we find ourselves at a critical juncture for the 
survival of regional aviation. The flaws of a rule change to the 
training requirement for pilots made years ago were laid bare during 
Covid. The resulting pilot shortage now imperils smaller cities and 
towns that rely on air travel as a vital business and tourism link. 
These towns are facing either a significant reduction in service or in 
many cases, the loss of all service entirely. It is estimated that 
airline service into small communities across the U.S. provides over 1 
million jobs, $41 billion in local wages and tax revenue, and nearly 
$153 billion in total economic value.
    A clear example of this risk would be the recently announced 
withdrawal of service by SkyWest--the county's largest and arguably 
most successful regional airline--from 29 rural cities across America. 
What is most stunning about this announcement is that all of them 
received Federal subsidies through the Essential Air Service (EAS) 
program to support that service.
    Frankly Madam Chair, I am deeply concerned about what is happening 
to regional aviation and in particular, to carriers like Mesa. Just to 
give you an idea of the order of magnitude, last month we lost almost 5 
percent of our pilot workforce as major airlines and operators of 
larger jets hired our pilots. They are doing this to offset a pilot 
shortage brought on by COVID related early retirements, a significant 
increase in retirements due simply to demographics of the pilot 
workforce, and the substantial expansion in low-cost carriers and cargo 
operations. Given the significant increase in cost and time required to 
become a pilot, there are just not enough pilots to go around.
    Regional airlines like Mesa are in an incredibly tough spot. Our 
pilots are exceptionally well trained and qualified, and prime targets 
for major carriers who are often viewed as career advancement by many 
young pilots who aspire to fly ``big equipment''. And given the 
economics, pilots flying larger aircraft can earn significantly more 
income flying for these major carriers.
    Regional airlines simply cannot keep up with the current level of 
attrition given the extensive training we perform for each new pilot 
and more importantly, the shrinking pool of incoming qualified 
candidates.
    For most Americans, regional airports are their first and only 
option to access the national aviation system. Regional airlines 
provide service to 65 percent of the Nation's commercially served 
airports. Unless significant action is taken soon, I believe this 
critical lifeline is in jeopardy.
    According to federal labor statistics, the industry needs to hire 
an average of 14,500 new pilots each year until 2030 just to keep up. 
Last year, there were only 4,346 ATP's granted compared to 6,664 in 
2019 and 9,387 in 2016. In order to maintain existing service levels, 
this has to change. If not, the impact will not only be felt on rural 
aviation as demand increases and supply decreases, but prices for the 
U.S. consumer will undoubtedly increase until a new equilibrium is 
reached.
    While the U.S. is generally considered a leader in aviation safety, 
it is interesting to note that no other country in the world has these 
regulations. Not a single one. And every day, foreign pilots who would 
be deemed unqualified to fly for a U.S. carrier are flying wide-body 
international aircraft into JFK and LAX.
    While addressing the 1500 hour rule would be the easiest fix, the 
likelihood of returning to pre-1500-hour rule is remote. We should 
consider, however, to ways to mitigate its effect, and to consider the 
quality of training over the quantity of training hours. We have to ask 
ourselves, whether someone becomes more qualified renting a Cessna 172 
and flying circles over the Pacific Ocean for two hours, or spending 
two hours in a high tech simulator shooting missed approaches into 
LaGuardia? Why should those hours count one for one?
    Given two years from now will be two years too late, what else can 
be done.
    Firstly, we would strongly recommend that Congress reach out to the 
FAA and encourage them to use the authority that Congress gave them 
under the 2010 airline safety act to create higher quality restricted 
ATP pathways over pure 1500 hour quantity. Training methods have not 
been static. With the advancements in training, there is little doubt 
we are capable producing safer, better qualified pilots without 
spending upwards to six years, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and 
flying around in circles for 1,500 hours.
    Another effective and actionable solution would be to allow 
qualified foreign pilots easier entry into the U.S. pilot workforce. 
Absent the same regulations, many countries around the world are in 
fact experiencing a surplus of pilots due to COVID-related reductions 
in international demand. This provides an opportunity to relieve much 
of the pressure brought on by the current shortage and would allow 
carriers to avoid painful reductions in service, maintain a reasonable 
fare structure, and enhance safety by lowering the velocity of 
attrition.
    It seems slightly absurd that fashion models are given preferred 
immigration status while qualified pilots--who could provide 
significant benefit to the national transportation system--are stuck at 
the border participating in a lottery system. Pilots should have 
preferential access much like nurses, and indeed fashion models.
    Additionally, I recommend raising the maximum pilot age from 65 to 
68, even if temporarily. Certainly no one would question their 
experience.
    A longer-term solution but one that may be critical in the coming 
decade is the support of institutions like United's Aviate Academy. We 
need strong commitment, and more student aid, to help get more pilots 
into the system. The high cost of educating new pilots not only limits 
the number of potential pilots, but significantly hurts any efforts at 
diversity in the profession which has been, sadly, historically 
lacking.
    Finally, Madam chair I strongly encourage you to request a GAO 
study of the impact that current regulations have on the pilot shortage 
and its bearing on local communities. As importantly, this study should 
also look into how these regulations have exacerbated the lack of pilot 
diversity, and what steps should be taken to address these problems.
    Most of recommendations can be done administratively by the Biden 
White House and the Department of Transportation, and I respectively 
ask you, as Chair of the Aviation Subcommittee, to encourage them to do 
so.
    Members of the Committee, there is not one simple fix that will 
solve the crisis we are faced with today. I am extremely grateful for 
the work you and your colleagues did on providing our industry with the 
lifesaving support of the PSP program. The financial support provided 
was indispensable in keeping hundreds of thousands of jobs across the 
country and preventing the potential collapse of U.S. aviation. 
However, I return to you now not to ask for more money, but to ask for 
common sense policy changes to reshape our industry in a way that 
allows us to continue to provide the incredible level of service to 
hundreds of communities across the country while enhancing safety.
    I thank you for your time and look forward to talking more about 
these solutions throughout the hearing.

    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Our fourth witness is Dean Greg Wilson. Dean Wilson is the 
Dean of Applied Technology for Pima Community College, located 
in my home town of Tucson. He's been with the college for over 
21 years and has been the Dean of Applied Technology since 
2014.
    Dean Wilson, thank you for joining us today and you're 
recognized for your opening statement.

STATEMENT OF GREG WILSON, ACADEMIC DEAN FOR APPLIED TECHNOLOGY, 
                     PIMA COMMUNITY COLLEGE

    Mr. Wilson. Thank you. Good morning, Senator Sinema and 
Members of the Committee.
    My name is Greg Wilson. I serve as the Dean of Applied 
Technology at Pima in Tucson, and I appreciate the opportunity 
to address you this morning.
    Pima Community College's Aviation Technology Program 
operates a state-of-the-art training facility located on the 
grounds of the Tucson International Airport. It provides 
students the opportunity to study aircraft maintenance in a 
hands-on learning environment, combining lectures, hands-on 
work, and independent projects.
    The program is rigorous and I'll go into a little more 
detail in a moment, but like you, Jonathan, it's very 
emotional. We had a graduation ceremony for our 33 students 
last night and to see a hangar full of students and families 
and just see the pride when their student walked across the 
stage and had their name called is what keeps us doing this, 
right, for 20 something years.
    Our program holds its students to the highest industry 
standards. As a result, it has a national reputation for 
excellence and places over 95 percent of graduates in high= 
demand jobs in aerospace and defense soon after graduation and, 
of course, I was sitting next to some students last night that 
had their jobs before they finished.
    In spite of our success, frankly, we need your help. The 
industry predicts that close to 200,000 new aircraft 
maintenance technicians will be needed in North America over 
the next 15 to 18 years. Close to 30 percent of the current 
ranks of aircraft mechanics are at or near retirement age and 
closer to home, MC estimates that a 40 percent increase in 
available aviation positions for the Southern Arizona Region 
alone compared to the national average of 10 percent.
    Pima County represents the largest concentration of 
aviation occupations in the Southern Arizona Region with 87 
percent of the jobs reported.
    The FAA reports that nationally the aviation sector 
accounts for more than 5 percent of the U.S. Gross Domestic 
Product and contributes $1.6 trillion in total economic 
activity. We read the same statement, right, and support nearly 
11 million jobs.
    Moreover, aviation manufacturing continues to be the 
Nation's top net export. In Arizona, aviation is a significant 
economic catalyst. Over 470,000 jobs are directly or indirectly 
related to the sector and it contributes more than $38 billion 
to the state's economy.
    As such, the aviation sector plays a key role in supporting 
and building on Arizona's economic strengths and possesses 
strong potential for bringing high-wage/high-demand jobs and 
increased business to the state and region.
    Supporting this vibrant sector takes a qualified workforce 
of highly trained technicians and specialized maintenance 
repair and operations facilities that maintain and rehabilitate 
commercial and military aircraft fleets.
    According to the Aeronautical Repair Station Association's 
2017 report, by state, aviation maintenance employs more than 
277,000 people and generates over $44 billion in economic 
activity nationally. In Arizona, the total aviation maintenance 
employment is about 16,000 which is the sixth highest in the 
nation, and Arizona's MRO operations have a total economic 
activity of four billion which is third highest behind only 
California and Washington.
    The Tucson Region is host to significant MROs, including 
Bombardier and Ascent. These companies employ thousands of 
skilled aviation maintenance professionals contributing greatly 
to the region's economic well-being.
    I am participating this morning to encourage you to 
increase funding to support aviation technology programs like 
the one we offer at Pima. I mentioned that our program's 
national and international reputation for excellence and the 
rigor. Our students complete 2,000 hours of training, over 100 
exams and nearly 300 hands-on projects.
    The program offers an Associate of Applied Science degree 
in Aviation Technology and accompanying certificates for direct 
employment in the core skill areas of air frame and power 
plant, structural repair, and avionics.
    The program is designed to replicate the industry to 
provide students with a real-world experience throughout the 
program. Pima is one of half of the FAA-approved schools 
offering an aviation maintenance associate's degrees and we're 
one of only a handful of U.S. schools offering the Advanced 
Structure Repair and Modification Program as well as commercial 
jet transport and aviation training.
    Pima Community College is one of only two U.S. educational 
institutions that received two aircraft donations from FedEx. 
They're both Boeing 727s, making our program one of the few 
that provides hands-on training on commercial and regional 
jets. We have about 19 total aircraft, four commercial and 15 
general.
    Additionally, we are building a drone program and we will 
offer a non-destructive testing program next year, and I want 
to thank you, Senator Sinema. Thanks to your assistance, as 
well as Senator Kelly, Representative Gallego, and 
Representative Kirkpatrick, Pima was the proud recipient of a 
$490,000 Federal Aviation grant. We were one of 15 recipients 
of the Aviation Maintenance Technical Workers Development Fund 
and that will pay for the most asked for aviation inspection 
techniques, visual testing, penetrant testing, magnetic 
particle testing, electro-magnetic testing, ultrasonic testing, 
and radiographic testing, and we will start offering that 
certificate in the fall of 2023.
    We appreciate the Committee's leadership in authorizing the 
program and urge you to expand to include additional funds that 
can help institutions like Pima provide real-time hands-on 
training.
    And with that, I will stop. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Wilson follows:]

     Prepared Statement of Greg Wilson, Academic Dean for Applied 
                   Technology, Pima Community College
    Good morning, Chair Sinema and members of the Subcommittee. My name 
is Greg Wilson, and I serve as the Dean of Applied Technology at Pima 
Community College in Tucson, Arizona. Thank you for the opportunity to 
address you this morning.
    Pima Community College's Aviation Technology Center operates a 
state-of-the art training facility located on the grounds of the Tucson 
International Airport. It provides students the opportunity to study 
aircraft maintenance in a hands-on learning environment combining 
lectures, hands-on work, and independent projects. The program is 
rigorous--I'll elaborate more on that in just a moment--and our program 
holds its students to the industry's highest standards. As a result, it 
has a national reputation for excellence, and places nearly 90 percent 
of its graduates in high-demand jobs in aerospace and defense soon 
after graduation.
    In spite of our success, frankly we need your help. The industry 
predicts that close to 200,000 new aircraft maintenance technicians 
will be needed in North America over the next 17-18 years. Close to 30 
percent of the current ranks of aircraft mechanics are at or near 
retirement age. Closer to home, Economic Modeling Specialists, Inc. 
(EMSI), estimates a 40 percent increase in available Aviation positions 
for the Southern Arizona region alone, compared to the national average 
of 10 percent. Pima County represents the largest concentration of 
aviation occupations in the Southern Arizona region with 87 percent of 
the jobs reported (1,336 of 1,534).
    The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) reports that, nationally, 
the aviation sector accounts for more than 5 percent of the U.S. gross 
domestic product, contributes $1.6 trillion in total economic activity 
and supports nearly 11 million jobs. Moreover, aviation manufacturing 
continues to be the Nation's top net export (FAA, 2016). In Arizona, 
aviation is a significant economic catalyst. Over 470,000 jobs are 
directly or indirectly related to the sector, and it contributes more 
than $38 billion to the state's economy (ACA, 2017). As such, the 
aviation sector plays a key role in supporting and building on 
Arizona's economic strengths, and possesses strong potential for 
bringing high-wage, high-demand jobs and increased business to the 
state and region.
    Supporting this vibrant sector takes a qualified workforce of 
highly trained technicians and specialized MRO (Maintenance, Repair, 
and Operations) facilities that maintain and rehabilitate commercial 
and military aircraft fleets.
    According to the Aeronautical Repair Station Association's (ARSA) 
2017 report titled U.S. Employment and Economic Impact by State, 
aviation maintenance employs more than 277,000 people and generates 
over $44 billion in economic activity nationally. In Arizona, total 
aviation maintenance employment is approximately 16,000, the sixth 
highest in the nation, and Arizona's MRO operations have a total 
economic activity of $4 billion, the third highest in the nation, 
behind only California and Washington (ARSA, 2017).
    The Tucson region is host to significant MROs, including Bombardier 
Aerospace and Ascent Aviation, and the state is host to Boeing, 
Northrop Grumman, and others. These companies employ thousands of 
skilled aviation maintenance professionals, contributing greatly to the 
region's economic wellbeing.
    I am participating this morning to encourage you to increase 
funding to support Aviation Technology programs like the program we 
offer at Pima Community College (PCC). I mentioned our program's 
national and international reputation for excellence, and its rigor. 
Students complete 2,000 hours of training, over 100 exams, and nearly 
300 hands-on projects. The program offers an Associate of Applied 
Science degree in Aviation Technology and accompanying certificates for 
direct employment in the core skill areas of: (1) Airframe and Power-
plant (2) Structural Repair, and (3) Avionics. The program is designed 
to replicate the industry to provide students with a real-world 
experience throughout the program. PCC is one of about half of FAA-
approved schools offering an Aviation Maintenance associate's degree. 
PCC is one of only a handful of U.S. schools offering the highly 
sought-after Advanced Structural Repair and Modification, and 
commercial jet transport and Avionics training. Pima Community College 
is one of only two U.S. educational institutions that received two 
aircraft donations from FedEx. Both are Boeing 727s, making PCC's 
program one of the few U.S. programs providing hands-on training on 
commercial and regional jets. Additionally, we are building a drone 
certification program and we will offer a nondestructive testing (NDT) 
program next year. Additionally, we work closely with our high school 
partners and deliver introductory courses for juniors and seniors.
    To help meet the demand referenced above, we are expanding the 
physical footprint and capacity of our Aviation Technology Center with 
a scheduled completion this summer. Our building is expanding to two 
hangars capable of servicing large commercial jets, and our facility 
will increase from 35K sq. ft. to 80K sq. ft. Our program capacity will 
increase from 125 students to 250 students, and we will increase our 
yearly graduates from 75 to 175. These graduates will be placed into 
Aviation jobs with median annual earnings ranging from $57,600 to 
$65,800. These increases and improvements are significant, and the one-
time state appropriation of $15M instigated by Governor Ducey has made 
a great impact on our operations. We have been able to cut into our 1-
1.5-year waitlist. The economic benefit for the state is also 
significant. The total of new jobs that will be supported is 455 with 
new direct payroll of $15.6M. The total new payroll supported is over 
$65M and new property tax revenues are expected to $2.4M. New sales tax 
revenue is estimated at $445K. The total economic impact is estimated 
to be over $255.5M over five years. That is a 13:1 return on 
investment!
    But we need to do more. We need your support to strengthen efforts 
by educators, workforce development programs, and economic development 
organizations to align education and workforce training programs with 
employer needs. We need sustainable state operations funding for 
community college career and technical education programs that support 
student success and meet the diverse needs of students, industry, and 
our communities.
    As of today, Pima Community College and Maricopa Community College 
still do not receive state FTSE-based operations funding. It is 
essential that outstanding programs like Pima's are supported 
financially to adapt to changing practices and technologies to ensure 
that we are preparing our students to enter the industry with the 
expected skills and abilities.
    Thank you for your support. I look forward to addressing your 
questions.

    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Our fifth witness is First Officer Paul Ryder, who serves 
as Secretary for the United Airlines Master Executive Council 
of the Air Line Pilots Association. Mr. Ryder has been a pilot 
for 17 years and currently flies the Boeing 757 and 767.
    Mr. Ryder, thank you for joining us today. You are 
recognized for your opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF PAUL RYDER, FIRST OFFICER UAI-MEC SECRETARY, AIR 
                    LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION

    Mr. Ryder. Thank you, Chair Sinema, for holding the hearing 
today.
    I'm a 17-year commercial airline pilot who has flown both 
regional and mainline carriers. I'm currently a first officer 
on the Boeing 757 and 767 for United Airlines. I feel very 
fortunate to work in a career that fulfills my passion for 
aviation.
    Thanks to you and other lawmakers, because of Payroll 
Support Program and its strong worker protections, the United 
States has enough pilots today to meet demand, in fact, more 
than 1.5 pilots for every job.
    But today's supply of pilots doesn't mean that we don't 
need to do all we can to build a strong pilot workforce for the 
future.
    As a member of the Air Line Pilots Association 
International, I can tell you that no other organization is 
more committed to inspiring and supporting the next generation 
of aviators.
    Each year ALPA connects with thousands of students of all 
ages, conducts visits to elementary, middle, high schools, as 
well as colleges and universities, air shows, and community 
events. Our union's goal is to inspire young people from all 
backgrounds to see themselves as airline pilots.
    ALPA is also working to create an accessible inclusive 
airline pilot workforce for all who are interested and for 
those that for too long have been locked out. Women and people 
of color in particular face significant barriers to becoming 
aviators and that must change.
    ALPA has a plan to break down those barriers, create 
opportunities, build a strong pipeline of qualified aviators, 
while protecting the high level of safety in the U.S. air 
transportation system. Some argue that we must lower standards 
to open doors of opportunity. We flatly reject that.
    To help aspiring aviators, ALPA is calling on our 
government to align Federal funding for pilot academic 
education and training with that of other highly skilled 
professions. We believe the government must do more to provide 
Federal financial assistance for flight training for students 
pursuing two-and 4-year degrees. It should provide an 
opportunity for pilots to work for airlines that serve the 
public need in exchange for student loan forgiveness.
    The government should increase subsidized loans for flight 
training and ensure that unsubsidized loans do not accrue 
interest while students are in school.
    To assist academic institutions, the government can provide 
grants to minority-serving institutions to create or expand 
aviation flight training programs and help other colleges and 
universities that serve underrepresented communities create 
such programs.
    On an industry level, airlines can do more to make it 
easier and more affordable to become an airline pilot. I'm 
proud of the partnership between ALPA pilots at United and 
United Airlines to create the Aviate Academy. It helps aspiring 
aviators with the cost of obtaining certification and will 
provide more enhanced training under the existing requirements.
    Unlike during past years, pilots who are starting their 
career today have many airlines to choose from. Airlines and 
labor can do more to address the economic and work-life issues 
that exist at some carriers and help them increase their 
ability to attract new aviators.
    We must also insist on an inclusive workforce for pilots. 
For example, ALPA's leading the fight to promote inclusive 
gender-neutral language in its collective bargaining 
agreements. We are advancing inclusive language throughout the 
industry, including the FAA's Advanced Aviation Advisory 
Committee, and in our advocacy to change the FAA's use of the 
term ``Notice to Airmen'' to Notice to Air Missions.
    As the United States works to expand its pilot workforce, 
it must protect our industry's extraordinary safety record. The 
success of the first officer qualification requirements and 
pilot training that were developed by the regulator, airlines, 
and labor have helped make U.S. air transportation the safest 
in the world.
    Some suggest you must choose between safety and 
opportunity. That is a false choice. Thanks to the Federal 
relief Congress provided to airlines, airline pilots are more 
than ready to meet today's needs. However, we must act to make 
certain that the pilot workforce of the 21st Century is ready 
for take-off.
    Thank you for this opportunity, Senator, and that concludes 
my remarks.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ryder follows:]

  Prepared Statement of Paul Ryder, First Officer UAI-MEC Secretary, 
                      Air Line Pilots Association
    Thank you, Chair Sinema, for holding this hearing today.
    I am a 17-year commercial airline pilot who has flown at both 
regional and mainline carriers. I am currently a first officer on the 
Boeing 757 and 767 for United Airlines. I feel very fortunate to work 
in a career that fulfills my passion for flying.
    Thanks to you and other lawmakers, because of the Payroll Support 
Program and its strong worker protections, the United States has enough 
pilots today to meet demand--in fact, more than 1.5 pilots for every 
job.
    But today's supply of pilots doesn't mean that we don't need to do 
all we can to build a strong pilot workforce for the future. As a 
member of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l, I can tell you that 
no organization is more committed to inspiring and supporting the next 
generation of aviators.
    Each year, ALPA connects with thousands of students of all ages. We 
conduct visits to elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as 
colleges and universities, air shows, and community events. Our union's 
goal is to inspire young people from all backgrounds to see themselves 
as airline pilots.
    ALPA is also working to create an accessible, inclusive airline 
pilot workforce for all who are interested and for those who have been 
locked out for too long. Women and people of color in particular face 
significant barriers to becoming aviators--and that must change.
    ALPA has a plan to break down those barriers, create opportunity, 
and build a strong pipeline of qualified aviators, while protecting the 
high level of safety in the U.S. air transportation system. Some argue 
that we must lower standards to open the doors of opportunity--we 
flatly reject that.
    To help aspiring aviators, ALPA is calling on our government to 
align Federal funding for pilot academic education and training with 
that of other highly skilled professions. We believe:

   The government must do more to provide Federal financial 
        assistance for flight training for students pursuing two-and 
        four-year degrees.

   It should provide an opportunity for pilots to work for 
        airlines that serve the public need in exchange for student 
        loan forgiveness.

   The government should also increase subsidized loans for 
        flight training and ensure that unsubsidized loans do not 
        accrue interest while students are in school.

    To assist academic institutions, the government can provide grants 
to minority-serving institutions to create or expand aviation and 
flight-degree programs and help other colleges and universities that 
serve underrepresented communities create such programs.
    On an industry level, airlines can do more to make it easier--and 
more affordable--to become an airline pilot. I'm proud of the 
partnership between ALPA pilots at United and United Airlines to create 
the Aviate Academy. It helps aspiring aviators with the cost of 
obtaining certification and will provide more enhanced training under 
the existing requirements.
    Unlike during years past, pilots who are starting their career 
today have many airlines to choose from. Airlines and labor can do more 
to address the economic and work-life issues that exist at some 
carriers and help them increase their ability to attract new aviators.
    We must also insist on an inclusive workplace for pilots. For 
example, ALPA is leading the fight to promote inclusive, gender-neutral 
language in its collectively bargained agreements. We are also 
advancing inclusive language throughout the industry, including at the 
FAA's Advanced Aviation Advisory Committee and in our advocacy to 
change the FAA's use of notice to airmen to notice to air missions.
    As the United States works to expand its pilot workforce, it must 
protect our industry's extraordinary safety record. The success of 
first officer qualification requirements and pilot training that were 
developed by the regulator, airlines, and labor have helped make U.S. 
air transportation the safest in the world. Some suggest we must choose 
between safety and opportunity. That is a false choice.
    Thanks to the Federal relief that Congress provided to U.S. 
airlines, airline pilots are more than ready to meet today's needs. 
However, we must act to make certain that the pilot workforce of the 
21st century is ready for takeoff.

    Senator Sinema. Thank you all for your opening statements 
and your written statements will all be entered into the 
record.
    Now we'll move on and have some time for questions. So my 
first question is for Ms. Donati. Thank you again for your work 
at the Aviate Academy and being so generous with your space to 
allow us to have our field hearing here today. This is the 
perfect location for discussion about the aviation workforce.
    In your testimony, you mentioned that you have many 
thousands of applicants for the Aviate Academy and that two-
thirds of the applicants are women and people of color.
    As you and other witnesses have pointed out in your written 
testimony, aviation is a field that has not been successful at 
providing a career path for all people from all communities 
across the country, and as we look to have a strong pipeline of 
aviation workers in the future, we need to improve on that.
    Could you provide some more background on your recruiting 
efforts and the partnerships you've established to reach out to 
communities that have been traditionally underrepresented in 
the aviation world?
    Ms. Donati. Thank you.
    United Airlines has done a wonderful job of partnering with 
nonprofit organizations, as Sisters of the Sky, Women in 
Aviation, International Organization of Black Aerospace 
Professionals, Latino Pilots Association, Professional Asian 
Pilots Association, and National Gay Pilots Association, and we 
understand that we cannot diversify aviation by ourselves.
    So it's really about partnerships and outreach and 
awareness. As we just started off, you know, we're working with 
those nonprofit organizations, but it's really getting into our 
communities. It's working with our educators and it's going, 
you know, into elementary schools because at fifth grade, 
that's when students most identify with their career.
    So it's really expanding our outreach and awareness but not 
just here in Arizona, it's across the country into communities 
that never thought aviation was possible for them.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. Some of our other witnesses also 
addressed this issue of diversity in their testimony. I'd like 
to get their perspectives on ways to recruit and retain 
students that can bring more racial, ethnic, and gender 
diversity to the field.
    So I'm going to Dean Wilson first and then Dr. Karlsson, 
and then any other witnesses who'd like to join in.
    Mr. Wilson. Senator Sinema, one of the other things we do, 
we do have a very strong high school pipeline for our program. 
This year we have about 43 students that represent 27 to 30 
different high schools in the Southern Arizona Region. It's 
about eight different districts.
    We also pull students from public, private high schools, 
charter, and then those that are also home schooled.
    One of the very interesting things that--one of the things 
we do at Pima is don't always think about accredit, you know, 
regular semester-type. We're also building fast tracks and so 
we work with industry to identify T skills, more like 
professional skills, right, because we're definitely going to 
cover the technical skill set. It's what is the employer 
looking for and then instead of going through your regular 
semester-based process, you know, you can build an eight-to-12-
week fast track that will make a student who goes through that 
program credible on the employer's floor, and then, of course, 
they'll take them the rest of the way.
    Dr. Karlsson. Yes, thank you, Senator Sinema.
    So Embry-Riddle has several programs to recruit and reach 
out to K-12 education, working with our local community, but I 
think we can do more as a profession.
    If you look at what NSF has done for STEM education, there 
are a lot of funding you can get for encouraging students to 
explore engineering and science. We tend not to have the same 
thing for aviation, and what I would like to see is similar 
research projects and engagement projects for engaging students 
in aviation.
    As I mentioned, even though pilots are kind of the most--I 
don't want to even say most important, but they are the most 
well-known in aviation, but you have everything else, 
technicians, flight attendants, airport managers. You have a 
lot of people, as I said. We have almost 11 million people in 
the country working in aviation.
    So to expose children, as we heard fifth grade is a good 
time to approach students, if we can approach that group of 
students to present the whole spectrum of jobs, I think that 
could help the industry significantly in the future.
    Mr. Ryder. Senator, if I may add a few remarks to that? 
Thank you for the opportunity, Senator.
    One of the things I'd like to highlight is at the end of 
the day removing barriers is the most effective means of 
increasing diversity within our profession, but as we've heard 
from others testify here, this goes beyond pilots and so our 
colleagues in the aviation maintenance field are also important 
as well as other above and below the wing professionals in the 
aviation community.
    But to achieve diversity, we must make sure that we have 
representation and that we have role models for students at a 
young age, as Ms. Donati pointed out. That's why the Air Line 
Pilots Association has been in classrooms for the last several 
decades ensuring we're providing a diverse representative group 
to young students in elementary and high schools to encourage 
them to see themselves on the flight deck and there's no one 
more interested in ensuring we have a robust pilot supply 
pipeline feeding us the most competent and qualified pilots for 
the future and that representation is an important element of 
ensuring that we have the proper diversity that reflects the 
communities that we fly into.
    Mr. Ornstein. Just real quickly, I think that the idea of 
taking down barriers obviously is extremely important, and if 
you look at the statistics, we're not doing a good job.
    Last year, of all the ATPs issued, only 1.6 percent were 
issued to people--African Americans. That's less than one-fifth 
their representation in the population.
    So clearly we need to do a better job but what I'd like to 
do as Mesa and, you know, it's an honor, Senator, having you 
here with us, is make this promise is that for the 
organizations that are here so that those folks coming in who 
may be disadvantaged will feel confident that they're making 
the right choice, I literally will stand here today and tell 
you that we will hire everyone that you graduate in the next 3 
years and we will hire everyone that you graduate in the next 3 
years and the same thing goes here.
    I am not joking about that. That's how bad things are. We 
will offer jobs right now to everyone here who graduates with a 
maintenance degree, which is a huge shortage, as well as 
pilots, and we'll do that right now.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. You know, based on the testimony 
from our witnesses, there appears to be a range of opinions 
about the current state of pilot supply and how the pandemic 
has impacted the labor market.
    Besides the current state of the labor market, I'd also 
like to take a broader perspective to understand our future 
needs. So looking forward, the Bureau of Labor Statistics 
predicts that overall employment of airline and commercial 
pilots is projected to grow 13 percent between 2020 and 2030 
which is faster than the average for all other occupations.
    These same labor statistics estimate about 14,500 openings 
for airline and commercial pilots are projected each year on 
average over the decade. So many of those openings are expected 
to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to 
different occupations or who retire.
    So I'd like to start first with Mr. Ryder and then go to 
Mr. Ornstein and any others wishing to weigh in.
    So, Mr. Ryder, what are your perspectives about the Labor 
Department's long-term estimates about demand for pilots over 
the next decade, and how can we best prepare to meet them?
    Mr. Ryder. Thank you, Senator Sinema.
    So I think one of the important distinctions here and I 
want to be clear that the Air Line Pilots Association is 
interested in breaking down barriers and there's no one more 
interested in ensuring we have a robust supply of pilots for 
this industry, but there are some details that are important 
here.
    Airline transport pilots and commercial pilots are two 
separate certifications and so while the ATP certifications may 
not reach the 14,000 mark, that's not the certification that 
the BLS is quoting. Those are both ATP and commercial 
certificates.
    In the last--well, since 2013, we've produced over 55,000 
new ATPs and our ATPs meeting not only all hiring or all 
retirements over that period of time but well in excess, 
allowing for those pilots to continue to serve in other areas 
within the aviation community, and as airlines are hiring 
pilots, they come out of those segments and come and join the 
airlines.
    What we have to do is we have to ensure that whatever 
solutions we bring forward to the table are met with the same 
or higher level of safety that we enjoy today.
    Earlier, we heard some testimony about--we could boil this 
down to facts, but there's an emotional plea here. As an 
airline pilot, I can tell you that on the flight deck we don't 
do anything but work with the facts and the situation at hand, 
and what we have to do is ensure that whatever solutions are 
brought forward for the traveling public, our taxpayers, it's 
the safest mode of transportation today and it must continue to 
be the safest mode of transportation going well into the future 
covering the period that the BLS refers to.
    Mr. Ornstein. Thank you. I think we all agree that safety 
is our highest priority and the U.S. industry is just amazing, 
the work that's been done by all the professionals in the 
industry, including what the FAA has done. It's just a stunning 
accomplishment when you think now that I think close to 15 
billion people have traveled without a major incident and you 
compare that to any other form of transportation where tens of 
thousands of people are killed every year in their automobile. 
So I think we've been pretty successful in that regard.
    I think going forward, though, to meet this demand, which 
is going to be explosive, we have to realize that training is 
not static and we need to use technology, such as full motion 
simulators, such as highly advanced flight training devices, 
and create alternative pathways that ensure more and more and 
safer pilots.
    Since the 1,500 hour rule was in place, the fact of the 
matter is our training failure rate is actually up twentyfold 
from our former pathways where we went through two- and four-
year colleges.
    So I don't think we produced better pilots under the 
current. I think we need to use the technology that we have 
available today to create alternative pathways so that we 
create better pilots and create them when we need them which is 
immediately.
    So I think we both probably agree we want to have better 
pilots. It's just a question of how do we get there from here.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. You know, in addition to pilots, 
the aviation workforce needs skilled mechanics who keep planes 
safe and prepared to fly.
    So when Congress reauthorized the FAA back in 2018, we 
identified the maintenance workforce issue as a key area of 
focus and we created a workforce development grant specifically 
for maintenance workers.
    Unfortunately, it took years for the FAA to establish the 
program even after Members of Congress, including me, 
prioritized the program, appropriated funding for it, and urged 
the FAA to get the money flowing.
    But I am grateful that the first batch of grants went out 
earlier this year and that Pima Community College was one of 
the first-ever recipients of this award for maintenance 
workforce development.
    Applications are now open for the next round of FAA 
workforce development grants. So I'd encourage all eligible 
institutions, especially those in Arizona, to get their 
applications in.
    Dean Wilson, can you provide a little more detail for us 
about how Pima Community College will utilize your FAA grant, 
and can you expand upon your thoughts on developing the 
maintenance workforce of the future?
    Mr. Wilson. Yes, we are actually in the process, Senator 
Sinema. Our facility opened in 2001. It's about 35,000 square 
feet, and we have almost completed construction. We're 
basically doubling the footprint of the Aviation Technology 
Center in Tucson. So we're going from about 35,000 square feet 
to 80,000 square feet.
    We are also increasing the capacity of the program. So we 
will go from serving 125 students up to 250 students a year and 
our yearly graduates will increase from about 75 to 175. So I 
know that's a little bit more than double.
    The one thing I didn't mention was that when I spoke about 
Fast Tracks earlier, RANP Mechanics Program usually takes 18 to 
19 months, but for those that are mustering outside of the 
military, instead of taking that long, you can actually go 
through our Part 65 and you can complete that in 4 weeks. So 
we'll be able to serve a lot more students through the new 
center.
    The interesting thing with the grant specifically, we are 
going to introduce the non-destructive testing. So, as 
Jonathan's mentioned, right, we're utilizing a bunch of new 
technology when we offer the NDT in the fall of next year.
    Just to repeat because I think I kind of stumbled over some 
of the techniques that we will be using and again this is the 
most asked-for aviation inspection testing, visual testing, 
penetrant testing, magnetic particle testing, electromagnetic 
testing, ultrasonic testing, and radiographic, and again so 
high school students are going to be able to do that. Those 
coming out of the military will be able to do it. We are 
advertising very strongly through the community, as well.
    Pima is a Hispanic-serving institution. So we talk about 
barriers. Our program is about 50 percent white students, 45 
percent Hispanic, and then less than five for black, Asian, and 
Native American students. So we have work to do.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    I'd like to follow up and get a perspective on the 
maintenance workforce issue from both Dr. Karlsson and Mr. 
Ornstein, as well, and to understand how academic institutions 
and employers view this issue.
    So, Dr. Karlsson, we'd like to hear your thoughts.
    Dr. Karlsson. Yes, thank you for that.
    At the Arizona Campus for Embry-Riddle, we do not have a 
maintenance program currently, but at the Daytona Beach Campus, 
we do. One part of that is that we work with the military 
personnel that are coming out from the military, transitioning 
to civil life and getting them trained to become technicians. 
They have a strong background, but they need just to get the 
training for working on commercial airplanes and that just 
takes--this is dangerous for me because I don't know exactly 
the data there, but it takes just a few months and they'll be 
out in the workforce. So that's one way of doing that.
    We would be very interested in starting a similar program 
here in Arizona, as well. So thank you.
    Mr. Ornstein. Well, it's a great question for us because, 
as I mentioned, the founder of our company is Larry Risley who 
was a mechanic who graduated from a school very much like 
yours, Abilene, Texas, and is my mentor. He literally was 
always telling me how important it was and maintenance is 
really the key driver of the airline's reliability.
    The problem that we face now is not unlike pilots, is, one, 
we have a very short supply which makes it very comfortable for 
me to offer literally everyone a job and the problem we have, 
two, is that our major airline partners are facing the same 
problems and are hiring our people. The attrition is so high.
    I think out of a total of 400 mechanics or 450 mechanics, 
we've lost 90 in 3 months, most of which going to all major 
airlines or to military contractors.
    I mean, our ability to pay, we're flying small aircraft, we 
just don't have the same revenue generation. So it's becoming 
very problematic.
    That being said, we find that in a small company, people 
like the camaraderie and there are some benefits and we're able 
to retain people, but we have to, you know, make the extra step 
to make that happen, but, clearly, I think we should not for a 
second give this the highest priority alongside of the pilots, 
given the shortages that we see and the impact that it's had on 
us.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Another challenge that faces individuals considering 
careers in aviation is the high cost of aviation training. Some 
of my colleagues in the Senate have considered ways to lessen 
the financial burden of this type of training and to expand 
financial support.
    As previously mentioned, the Aviate Academy is exploring 
options to lessen the financial burden on applicants through 
scholarships and other proposals, and other major carriers, 
including American Airlines, which is one of the largest 
carriers in Arizona, are also working to lessen the cost of 
pilot training.
    So, Ms. Donati, I'm going to ask you first, I'd be 
interested to hear from the whole panel about this issue as a 
couple of you have mentioned this, what ways is Aviate helping 
to financially support aviation training, particularly for 
those who find financial expenditures especially burdensome, 
and what else can Congress do to help?
    We'll just kind of go clockwise through to get your 
thoughts on that question. Thanks.
    Ms. Donati. Thank you, Senator Sinema.
    United Airlines has partnered with JPMorgan to, you know, 
raise money to provide scholarships through our nonprofit 
organizations. In addition to that, you know, we're looking for 
a variety of lenders that can support our students.
    You know, we have provided the highest quality of training 
by implementing upset recovery and prevention training which is 
not a requirement by the FAA, but we want to provide that 
quality of training without increasing that cost.
    So it's really, you know, partnerships in the industry. 
It's finding the right lenders, finding the right 
opportunities, also being accredited by ACCSC allows us to open 
up Title 4 funding in the future for our students.
    Dr. Karlsson. Yes, funding is a major barrier for 
especially the more underrepresented groups.
    What Embry-Riddle has done is to rely a lot on donations. 
It informs the scholarships to support students. Recently, the 
Boeing Company initiated an endowed fund that provides 
scholarships for a diverse group of students, and we are 
working with several corporations to establish such funds.
    A third option that I heard, and I forget who mentioned 
that, but the Loan Forgiveness Programs would help long term 
for the students, but it's really this initial barrier that 
needs to be addressed. So for any type of subsidized loan and 
scholarships for students would really help.
    Mr. Ornstein. It's my understanding, speaking to our 
recruiting people, that the biggest problem folks have, in 
particular on the pilot side, is, you know, if you go to a 4-
year college, it could be upwards to $200,000 and then you 
throw the flight training on top of that, which now is, you 
know, eight times more, it's over $100,000. So you're looking 
at a price tag between a quarter of a million to $300,000. That 
really puts it out of the reach of so many people.
    I think the big gap that I understand is that you cannot 
use student loans to finance flight training and as a result of 
that, you may get your college program that could be paid for 
with a student loan, but you can't get the flight training 
which has become now the very expensive piece of that training, 
and I think that, you know, Mesa has tried to be helpful but, 
you know, we have a cadet program. We upfront $10-20,000, I'm 
not sure of the number now, to folks who then come to work at 
Mesa, but our capability--I mean, you know, we're not JPMorgan 
and so it's limited.
    As much as I'd like to, we need the people, but, you know, 
there's only so much we can do, but I think the idea that gap 
in the fact that you can't use it for flight training, I think 
becomes a real obstacle for people.
    Mr. Wilson. Senator Sinema, you mentioned the FAA grant. 
Pima is very active in terms of looking for sources and we were 
recently named one of the Metallica Scholar Institutions. So 
Metallica, the band, if you haven't heard, they offer a lot for 
technical programs and most of the scholarships went to our 
aviation students.
    The other thing we do is we work with a nonprofit in town 
known as Job Path, and, you know, not to get emotional but a 
lot of our aviation students are going through a lot, right. 
It's different than the 70 percent of Pima students who are 
part-time.
    For our Aviation Program, you're going through 8 hours a 
day, you know, 5 days a week, and real life gets in the way 
sometimes. So when we partner with Job Path, they're on average 
giving students $2,000 to pay rent, to get food, and for 
transportation.
    So I think having more opportunities like that is what--you 
know, and I hear it from students all the time. If it wasn't 
for Job Path, I would not be able to focus on my studies. We 
need more partnerships like that.
    Mr. Ryder. Thank you, Senator.
    So I think it's safe to say that airline pilots are bullish 
on inspiring and mentoring pilots, aspiring pilots to join our 
profession.
    One of the things I'd like to clear up on, and the facts on 
this really do matter, is that we've heard several times the 
cost of training to become a pilot is not cheap and that's very 
true.
    I'm certainly aware of that, as I think everybody in the 
hearing is, but what we can't do is allow the interests of 
shortcutting training or the cost of training to impact safety 
regulations which, after 2010, have resulted in the single 
greatest decrease in passenger fatalities at 99.8 percent 
decrease. So there must be other realistic alternatives.
    While there is a 1,500 hour requirement for the ATP, the 
rule actually created three additional pathways that allow for 
less hours, depending on the quality of that experience. As Mr. 
Orstein pointed out, it's not just about hours. It's about the 
quality of those hours. Whether you're attending the Aviate 
Academy and getting quality education here or getting it at 
two-or 4-year program, the quality of those hours do matter.
    But one thing did not change as a result of the first 
officer qualification and that is the cost of training. That's 
an important distinction.
    A commercial pilot will spend about $100,000 on the flight 
training portion of their development as an aviation 
professional. That's pre-FOQ. After the FOQ, it remained the 
same amount.
    The rule had no impact on the cost of training for an 
aviation professional who's aspiring to be an airline pilot, 
but what did change was the result for the traveling public in 
the safety that they can expect being on the airplane.
    So how do we address diversity? Well, I think some 
testifying here talked about the diverse organizations that 
they partner with and ALPA partners with those, as well. Those 
are important role models and representatives of the pilot 
profession that inspire, motivate, and keep motivated young 
aviation future professionals that need that type of 
representation, that need that sort of guidance.
    The other thing that we are proponents of is finding ways 
to funnel additional student funding to cover flight training 
which is not currently covered in Federal-backed loans or 
grants or tuition reimbursement or in the case of the public 
need, ensuring that there is some sort of a tuition forgiveness 
program so that when they're serving the public good, they're 
also experiencing reduction in their debt load. Those are ways 
that we can make meaningful change.
    We've heard several times here today about the, quite 
frankly, disappointing diversity in the piloting profession and 
it is not respective of our communities that we fly into and 
our population here.
    But if we just improve in the diversity of our incoming 
classes that is the single greatest increase in volume of 
pilots that will meet the high standards of the profession, 
that will have the skills, the technical training, the proper 
professional development necessary to command an aircraft at a 
regional carrier, at a cargo carrier, or large international 
carrier, and all of that can be done without changing any of 
the important safety regulations that were the result of a 
bipartisan effort in 2010.
    Senator Sinema. Well, thank you.
    You know, many of you have mentioned kind of the work to 
draw in students into the career at earlier ages. So I'm going 
to start with Dean Wilson, but this is a question for the whole 
panel.
    If we want to draw students into the careers in aviation, 
as you all have mentioned, we need to engage with them at the 
elementary and middle school and high school levels.
    So my first question is, what techniques can be used to 
build that interest in aviation and STEM education before they 
reach the collegiate level, and, in particular, if you have 
ideas around specific ways or techniques to get kids interested 
before they exit high school, we'd like to hear about those to 
figure out how we could best support them?
    Mr. Wilson. Yes. The one thing that I've seen to be the 
most effective when we have younger students come in is to--I 
give tons of tours of our facilities and they're excellent. If 
you haven't been down to Tucson, I'd really encourage you to 
come check them out.
    But we just don't walk them through, we give them hands-on 
activities. So they will spend 30 minutes, you know, either 
changing a tire or using a laser alignment, working with a 
robot and anything in automation, and that's what really opens 
their mind to, oh, I had no idea this was what AIT meant or 
this is what I could do in aviation.
    The other thing is it's the team, right. When you see 
representation, so when our lab specialists are females 
operating the robots or the virtual reality, that helps those 
students understand I can do that, too. She's done it, I can do 
it, or if it's a student of color, he's done it, I can do it. I 
think that's really the best thing and you make it fun 
obviously.
    The other thing is you do like because we understand that 
parents have a lot of say when it comes to the younger students 
and so we partner with the University of Arizona, for example, 
on what they call Design Day for their engineering students and 
to a person you find that the students that have had hands-on 
experience make better engineers and so we just encourage that 
message, as well, so the student who is coming through gets 
exposed. They like it, then you've got to convince the parents, 
let me go through this 2-year school where I can get some 
hands-on experience and then I can become a better engineer if 
the 4-year is their option, but it works the same for aviation.
    Ms. Donati. So the Department of Transportation actually 
requires career cluster training in K through 12 and 
transportation logistics is a part of the curriculum and 
aviation is a very, very small percentage of that required 
curriculum.
    Unfortunately, our teachers and our guidance counselors are 
required to teach that information but they don't have the 
tools to teach it in a way that makes sense for pathways after 
graduation.
    You know, it's kind of this fact that in order to be a 
pilot you can't wear glasses and you have to have a 4.0 and 
that's not true.
    So what can we do to----
    Senator Sinema. I'd only qualify for half of that.
    Ms. Donati. So what can we do to partner with the 
Department of Transportation and Department of Workforce 
Development to make sure that we are training the trainer, as 
Dr. Karlsson mentioned earlier, and as Mr. Ryder mentioned, 
too, the representation. We need to have, you know, industry 
out there representing the career and representing the 
communities that they serve, but it's really working with our 
Department of Education and it's those partnerships and right 
now with the work that, you know, I did on the Women in 
Aviation Advisory Board, that's where the biggest gap is, is 
that we're not partnering. The FAA is doing this alone.
    We're not truly partnering with all entities in order to 
get in front of those students.
    Dr. Karlsson. So I agree with what have been said. We do 
also have like tours where students get the hands-on experience 
and one thing that I think as educators we could do better on 
and would be interested in getting funding for is a program 
where we could bring teachers and guidance counselors on to 
campus, for example, during the summer. The K-12 teachers 
typically have significant gap. Not all school districts but 
they do have a gap in the summer where they are basically not 
employed but if we have grants to support them, come to campus 
and learn what it is like to be a pilot, aerospace engineer, 
maintenance technician, and then they can take that back to the 
classroom to teach work skills to the students.
    If they are emerged in what actually happen on campus that 
could stimulate the K-12 teachers and students.
    Senator Sinema. Any other thoughts?
    Mr. Ryder. Thank you, Senator.
    As I mentioned in our testimony that we do reach out to 
elementary and high school students and that's a very important 
demographic and, in addition to the representation, we're 
hearing a flavor of this which is the collaboration amongst the 
industry representatives, the academia, the regulators, and our 
Federal Government to ensure that we're reaching the right 
audience to carry the message.
    We cannot place a professional from each one of these walks 
of life in every classroom in every city in every state of the 
nation, but what we can do is we can collaborate and empower 
the influencers that have critical time with students of a 
young age and ensure that they see that representation, but 
it's brought with a message that builds a pathway that allows 
them to explore their interests.
    One of the important parts of inspiring a young child in 
their exploration of a potential career is the importance of 
self-selection, allowing them to identify what drives their 
passion, and certainly as a pilot I'm a bit biased and I would 
love to see them choose to be an airline pilot at some point, 
but I recognize the importance of our colleagues in aviation 
maintenance, engineering, flight operations, and all of those 
are great careers in the aviation industry, and what we have to 
do is we have to make sure we're bringing things together.
    One off the elements that ALPA has undertaken is not only 
working with many of these groups that represent diversity but 
also reaching out to stakeholders, like the American School 
Counselors Association, School Superintendents Association, and 
bringing together other industry stakeholders to come up with a 
collaborative workforce development campaign that will allow us 
to reach youth classroom instructors, be it school counselors 
or teachers, and parents.
    Parents have to feel comfortable that there's a viable path 
for their student. The educator has to feel comfortable and 
confident that they can deliver that pathway, explain the 
career field and inspire that young student, and the student 
has to see themselves as a potential candidate there with a 
real opportunity to meet their dream.
    We're very committed to that and we would invite industry 
stakeholders that are interested in partnering to join us in 
that effort, but those are the types of activities that allow 
us to use the current structure, the current pathways, 
particularly for pilots, to meet the demand that we see today 
with our strong production of pilots, the exceptional students 
that are joining Aviate Academy and other two-and 4-year 
institutions around the country, and it doesn't only require 
college.
    As we've heard in testimony, there are other pathways that 
exist today that you don't have to go through that and those 
are all presented to students and we certainly encourage an 
exploration and collaboration and making sure we're bringing 
safe and effective means of growing the aviation industry 
workforce.
    Mr. Ornstein. I'll say just quickly, I mean, I thought it 
was such a great question, I was trying to remember what got me 
so inspired and I'm not sure. I think Kitty Hawk and Wright 
Brothers were still a ways off when I was in fifth grade.
    The fact is I think giving people the rich history of 
aviation, particularly in the minority community, I mean, I 
would bet that at Aviate every person knows who Amelia Earhart 
is. They know who the Tuskegee Airmen are. I bet if we go 
across the street to a public high school, 10 percent of the 
kids would know who they are, and I think having that history, 
and I remember, you know, my 13th birthday, the first thing I 
did was I took my first flight lesson, you know, that day, and, 
you know, you've got to inspire people to feel that way about 
aviation because it is such a wonderful profession.
    You know, we joke around with the pilots. It's like we have 
jobs that we pay to go to, you know. I mean, we love doing what 
we do so much that it's just something that I think would be 
very inspiring, and I think the second piece is, you know, the 
industry has had a bad rap. I mean, you know, particularly with 
the pilot group and with mechanics. Companies have gone through 
bankruptcy. They've had to furlough people. They've gone 
backward in their careers.
    I mean, those times, fortunately, I mean, things have 
gotten much better and the career outlook now is fantastic for 
people and I think we need to get that message out, too, that 
there is security in the career at this point. There's 
opportunity, and, you know, there's a really good living and, 
you know, I think that is important to get that message out to 
people, as well.
    Senator Sinema. Well, thanks.
    You know, another overlooked aspect of the aerospace 
workforce is the STEM engineering and research and development 
work that needs to be done. So Congress, as you probably know, 
is currently working on a piece of legislation, the COMPETES 
Act, that will help boost scientific research and domestic 
manufacturing capabilities.
    Our bill includes a number of Arizona priorities, such as 
investing in increased semiconductor manufacturing right here 
in Arizona.
    The key promise of the bill is that we need to continually 
advance the ball on technologies and that's especially true for 
aerospace workers where new technologies, such as advanced 
composites, could lighten the weight of many planes and help us 
increase fuel efficiency.
    So I want to start with Dr. Karlsson, who's an experienced 
researcher on advanced materials. How could the development of 
advanced composites affect the aviation industry over the next 
decade?
    Dr. Karlsson. Well, thank you for that question.
    So advanced composites and advanced material in general, 
advanced materials is really an enabler for technology and a 
lot of things that we dreamed of being able to do, we couldn't 
do but then with new materials you can do that.
    So I don't want to get into my passionate material science 
lecture here, but any type of materials-focused research and 
technology research on applying those materials will help the 
industry.
    For example, as you already mentioned, Senator, is the 
light-weight composite structures, also the durability. You can 
also put in, for example, sensors in the material that will 
then alert the technicians that, hey, this part needs to be 
maintained.
    The possibilities are just limited by our imagination by 
having these new materials. Also, having the semiconductor 
production here in Arizona will really help us to innovate 
quicker because if you have the manufacturing plant, we can see 
how we can optimize that plant, for example, and then the 
engineers are here and you can get that closed slope on 
optimizing things.
    Also, the last part of the benefit of having the 
manufacturing locally is that the technicians working in that 
plant, they're also smart people that will see things and they 
come up with ideas. If they have a direct connection to talk to 
the engineers, those ideas can come to the engineers much 
quicker.
    So I'll stop there because I get passionate about 
materials.
    Senator Sinema. We're all in support of that.
    Anyone else have a thought about this issue before I move 
on? I knew it.
    Mr. Wilson. I was just going to add that, so we have an 
Automation and Robotics Program. The faculty member is 
completing his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering. So we really 
encourage crossover between programs.
    So the composites portion of our Aviation Program, they 
work together, and I don't know if everybody knows this or not, 
but the community college districts in the state of Arizona, we 
have what we call an Arizona Advanced Technology Network.
    It started around robotics and automation, but it is 
expanding into semiconductors and advanced manufacturing. So if 
I was to leave Pima as a student and go to Estrella Mountain, 
instead of having to transfer, we are actually building one 
program for advanced manufacturing across the state.
    It started with four programs which, as far as we know, is 
the first time you've head multiple districts for community 
colleges partnering and offering the exact same curriculum, and 
this summer we're starting to expand across all 10 districts.
    So semiconductors, composites, those are areas that we're 
going to cover, so students are getting the same program, and 
if you think about other states where they've attracted big 
business, it's because you can offer one program to the 
employers and so Arizona's headed down that path now.
    Mr. Ornstein. I think it's a great place to ask that 
question. I mean, you know, being a military aviation history 
buff, I mean, you had the Corsair Fighters built, you know, 
just a few feet away from us and the Goodyear Blimp built just 
a few feet away from there, and I think Arizona has such a 
fabulous opportunity.
    I mean, the wave of technology coming with decarbonizing 
electric aircraft, you know, Mesa's partner with United now and 
two deals with Urban Mobility Vehicles and the 19-passenger. 
All of them depend on advanced composites. Weight is the 
critical aspect of all of these aircraft and there are 
literally now over a hundred new designs coming out, and I have 
been very, very forceful with the companies that I'm dealing 
with trying to convince them that coming to Arizona is a place 
for them to headquarter and build aircraft. It would be a great 
choice for them, and, you know, there's a real opportunity. I 
think it's huge to get these companies, some of which have 
become incredibly well-financed at this point, and all that 
development is critical to their success because weight is the 
key obstacle that they all have.
    Senator Sinema. This was mentioned earlier in some of your 
opening statements, but currently commercial pilots have a 
mandatory retirement age of 65. Some of my colleagues in the 
Senate have proposed raising the mandatory retirement age to 
68.
    So I'm going to go first to you, Mr. Ornstein, although we 
understand you're definitely the youngest on the panel. So I'm 
going to ask you first, then invite perspectives from other 
panelists.
    You mentioned retirements in your testimony. Can you 
provide more context on how such a proposal would impact your 
airline?
    Mr. Ornstein. Yes. It's a scary day when I always thought I 
was the youngest person on panels. Unfortunately, I still have 
mirrors in my house, so I know better.
    But the fact is I think that by raising the retirement age 
to 68 certainly--like I said, we can't have any argument. I 
think we all agree that experience is not going to be an issue, 
plus there are folks, like I said, Mike Whitman who, you know, 
he's going to turn 65. I know without a doubt I'd put my family 
on a plane with him in a second.
    Do we need to test people as they get older? Sure. I think 
there may be some additional testing required, but the fact of 
the matter is I think these are highly qualified people. The 
vast majority are more than capable of continuing to fly an 
aircraft.
    I think an arbitrary age, I mean, things have changed. I 
mean, people are doing everything as they get older now. The 
whole world is changing in regard to that, and for us it would 
take a massive amount of pressure off us because the majors 
would not have the voracious appetite that they have right now 
to hire our folks and it would potentially give us enough 
breathing room to catch up which is really critical right now.
    So I'm very much in favor of it. I think that, you know, 
there are certainly safety nets that can be put in place, but 
the fact of the matter is it would be incredibly helpful to us 
right now just to, like I said, slow down the velocity of 
attrition.
    Senator Sinema. Others?
    Mr. Ryder. Senator, I would just like to add to that that 
I'll reiterate there's nobody more interested in creating a 
robust supply of pilots than the Air Line Pilots Association.
    However, this is not, you know, a fully well thought 
through proposal. It doesn't solve the problem. You know, as 
mentioned, kicking the can down the road by 3 years. You know, 
we've heard this argument of pilot shortages and issues and 
challenges for decades and it hasn't manifested itself because 
it's really not there.
    We currently have 1.5 pilots for every available job. The 
reality is, is that we also have the most safe mode of 
transportation in the world. We have a reduction in passenger 
fatalities by 99.8 percent.
    What we also have is sometimes a failure or shortage of 
managements willing to accept the responsibility for their 
decisions or lack thereof in being prepared for the challenges 
of the aviation industry.
    What we've heard earlier was the canceling of flights in 
essential air service communities, but that same carrier, while 
it pulled out of 29, simultaneously is out EAS flying in other 
communities. So that indicates it's not really about the pilot 
supply. It's about revenue, and while we can have discussions 
on the importance of revenue and certainly as an employee I 
enjoy having a carrier that is a successful participant in this 
industry, that's not the case for all carriers. They're not all 
built alike and what we can't do is to change regulations and 
this is not an arbitrary one, it's a standard internationally 
through ICAO.
    There'd be several implications to this to apply it safely. 
We cannot change safety regulations to address the business 
decisions and motivations of some carriers that have a lack of 
applicants that will have a detrimental effect on the passenger 
safety when they get onboard an aircraft.
    What we can do is make meaningful change and ALPA is a 
strong supporter of improving diversity, removing barriers, 
increasing the awareness of these excellent aviation careers 
within our industry, and making sure that we have the role 
models to bring the next generation alongside us.
    I look forward to that, but what we can't do is not boil 
down the facts and simply look at short-sighted quick fixes to 
problems that don't exist when there are more meaningful and 
real underlying issues that are impacting some carriers versus 
others.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    So this will be my final question this afternoon. One of 
the key aspects of workforce development is helping students 
bridge that gap between schools and employers.
    As we've talked about today, Arizona is gifted with a 
robust aerospace sector with leading private employers and 
having a clear path to employment provides more certainty for 
students entering the pipeline.
    I know this is something you've been thinking about, Ms. 
Donati, and I want to hear from all of you. What else can be 
done to encourage coordination not just here in Arizona but 
across the Nation as we move forward in the aviation workforce 
development?
    Ms. Donati. That's the development of pathway programs, so 
specifically the Aviate Academy partnering with Aviate over at 
United. After our students graduate our program, we provide a 
variety of options for them to build their time to 1,500 hours. 
That can be done with additional flight schools or can be done 
through Part 135 operators and then moving them on to United 
Express carrier to prepare them for the flight deck at United 
Airlines.
    So it's leading the pathway to the career versus allowing 
the student to have to figure it out on their own. This is a 
very, you know, costly training environment and when you invest 
the funds into training, especially a high-quality training 
environment, you want to ensure that you have a career set up 
for you for success.
    Dr. Karlsson. Yes, thank you for that question.
    So many of our students, if not most, yes, definitely most, 
not all, after they get their certificate for commercial 
flight, they still have many hours they need to continue before 
they can be commercial airplane pilots, .but that's where we 
have pathway programs and many of them then are working for us 
or other flight schools as flight instructors.
    So, for example, at Prescott Airport where we're located, 
we have at least two flight schools and our students end up 
working for them or for us. That builds their hours up and they 
get paid for their training. So after they have all their 
certificates, there's no additional cost for them to become 
commercial pilots.
    Mr. Ornstein. Again, I think the best course of action that 
we could take would be to create additional structured training 
pathways so that folks don't have the problems that you're 
talking about where it could take them upwards to a quarter of 
a million dollars and 6 years of their life to get into a 
career that has a hard time retirement.
    You know, when people look at their income capability, they 
have to add the cost of the investment as part of that and the 
ability for them to even make that investment. It's not even a 
choice. I think you're just keeping people out.
    So I think the more we can do to create those--which the 
FAA has the ability to do and as you mentioned, they have three 
now. I just think there are more available so that we can 
create a way for them to see, you know, light at the end of the 
tunnel. It's not going to take literally 6 years to get there, 
and I think technology is really the answer to do that.
    I mean, when you look at--I mean, you know, again I'll date 
myself a little bit. When I went to go, there were games like 
Pong. OK. Now I can't even figure out how to play most of the 
games that are out there.
    But the fact is there has been such an advancement in 
technology that I think we can employ that to help move this 
process along in a very safe and reliable and a structured 
environment.
    Mr. Wilson. I work at a community college. So I'm going to 
emphasize the community. I certainly agree with the pathways, 
right. I mentioned instead of our 18-month Part 147 Program, 
you can get through in a Part 65 in 4 weeks without sacrificing 
safety obviously, and community colleges need to continue to be 
more innovative, but in my 20+ years of working with industry, 
it's the most desperate I've seen employers and so I always 
like to use this image.
    You have to engage, right. You can't sit there at the 
bottom of the chute with a catcher's mitt hoping the students 
are going to come to you. We expect you to show your face so 
the students get to know you, explain your culture, why should 
they choose you.
    So it's a community effort. We had lunch recently with a 
CEO of an MRO in Tucson and posed the question, can you give 
$25,000 to $50,000 to make this work so we can stay innovative 
when it comes to the technology, and if you're working with us, 
you're going to experience the students. You're going to know 
who you want to pick. So again community.
    Mr. Ryder. So I think one of the things I'd like to point 
out for one of my fellow witnesses here is that the pathway for 
less than $250,000, less than 6 years already exists actually 
right here in Arizona. There are flight schools, flight 
academies that can train a pilot through the pathways available 
for much less than $250,000 and much quicker than 6 years.
    So the facts and reality matter on that, but I will say 
that community is important. Our two- and four-year 
institutions are exceptional in creating competent aviation 
professionals.
    I certainly think that our two-year colleges are an under-
utilized resource in many aspects of the aviation community and 
can be better partnered with aviation representatives, flight 
schools, flight academies, and really provide a robust source 
of professionals for the industry.
    But there is no one that is more interested in 
participating in this and so when talking about building these 
groups, I think it's about conversation. I think it's about 
partnership like ALPA has with Aviate Academy and working with 
United Airlines and Dana's team to make sure that we're working 
together collaboratively to identify best practices, find ways 
of ensuring that funding is sourced and improving the 
confidence in those that are providing that source of funding 
to realize the return on the investment, to ensure we meet the 
highest safety standards, and so much like as an aviation 
professional in my case as an airline pilot, whenever an 
abnormality occurs, whenever we're dealing with a challenge, we 
build the team and here in this case, we have to build the team 
and we have to work together to address where there's a need, 
fulfilling that need with the highest standard and the highest 
capable individuals.
    The great thing about that is whether you go into a middle 
school, a high school, a local college or university, you'll 
find youth that are fired up about the prospects of aviation 
when you introduce this career field, and so we're committed to 
not only increasing that diversity but making sure we're 
breaking down the barriers for them and so we're a proud 
participant and partner with anybody that would like to work 
with us on those efforts and in the case of Aviate Academy, we 
are proud to be partnering with United Airlines and Aviate to 
take that next step and make sure that we have a robust supply 
via multiple pathways.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    And with that, we've reached the end of today's hearing. I 
want to thank all of our witnesses for your time and for your 
testimony.
    The hearing record will remain open for four weeks, until 
June 10, 2022. Any Senators who'd like to submit questions for 
the record should do so two weeks from now, by May 27, 2022, 
and I ask that witnesses' responses be returned to the 
Committee by June 10, 2022.
    That concludes today's hearing. We are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:32 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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