[Senate Hearing 117-502]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                      S. Hrg. 117-502

                         SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE:
                    IMPROVING VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT,
                 EDUCATION, AND HOME LOAN OPPORTUNITIES

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                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            OCTOBER 27, 2021

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                                __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman
Patty Murray, Washington             Jerry Moran, Kansas, Ranking 
Bernard Sanders, Vermont                 Member
Sherrod Brown, Ohio                  John Boozman, Arkansas
Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Mike Rounds, South Dakota
Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Thom Tillis, North Carolina
Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona              Dan Sullivan, Alaska
Margaret Wood Hassan, New Hampshire  Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
                                     Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
                                     Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
                      Tony McClain, Staff Director
                 Jon Towers, Republican Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                            OCTOBER 27, 2021

                                SENATORS

                                                                   Page
Moran, Hon. Jerry, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas......     1
Tester, Hon. Jon, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana............     6
Hirono, Hon. Mazie K., U.S. Senator from Hawaii..................     7
Tuberville, Hon. Tommy, U.S. Senator from Alabama................     9
Hassan, Hon. Margaret Wood, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire......    11
Tillis, Hon. Thom, U.S. Senator from North Carolina..............    13
Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, U.S. Senator from Connecticut..........    19
Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas...................    20
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, U.S. Senator from West Virginia...........    21
Blackburn, Hon. Marsha, U.S. Senator from Tennessee..............    23

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel I

Margarita Devlin, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and 
  Management, Veterans Employment and Training Service, 
  Department of Labor............................................     3
Ronald Burke, Jr., Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and 
  Oversight, Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of 
  Veterans Affairs; accompanied by Ricardo Da Silva, Program 
  Integration Officer, Education Service.........................     5

                                Panel II

Joe Schumacher, Director of Veteran Services, Montana State 
  University.....................................................    26
Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans 
  Affairs, Kansas State University...............................    28
Patrick Murray, Legislative Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars...    30
Justin Monk, Policy Associate, Student Veterans of America.......    32

                                APPENDIX
                          Prepared Statements

Margarita Devlin, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and 
  Management, Veterans Employment and Training Service, 
  Department of Labor............................................    47
Ronald Burke, Jr., Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and 
  Oversight, Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of 
  Veterans Affairs...............................................    53
Joe Schumacher, Director of Veteran Services, Montana State 
  University.....................................................    61
Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans 
  Affairs, Kansas State University...............................    65
Patrick Murray, Legislative Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars...    74
Justin Monk, Policy Associate, Student Veterans of America.......    82

                        Statement for the Record

Nate Long, Chief Executive Officer of Veterans United Home Loans.    97

                        Questions for the Record

Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted 
  by:
  Hon. Jon Tester................................................   105
  Hon. Patty Murray..............................................   110
  Hon. Sherrod Brown.............................................   112
  Hon. Kyrsten Sinema............................................   115
  Hon. Tommy Tuberville..........................................   117

Department of Labor response to questions submitted by:
  Hon. Jon Tester................................................   120
  Hon. Patty Murray..............................................   121
  Hon. Tommy Tuberville..........................................   124

Student Veterans of America response to questions submitted by:
  Hon. Kyrsten Sinema............................................   125

 
                         SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE:
                    IMPROVING VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT,.
                        EDUCATION, AND HOME LOAN
                             OPPORTUNITIES

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:05 p.m., via 
Webex and in Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. 
Jon Tester, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Tester, Brown, Blumenthal, Hirono, 
Manchin, Sinema, Hassan, Moran, Boozman, Cassidy, Tillis, 
Blackburn, and Tuberville.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORAN

    Senator Moran [presiding]. Good afternoon. Senator Tester 
is where I should be, which is the Indian Affairs Committee for 
a markup. He will be joining us later. We also have votes that 
are ongoing, and we have one more vote to cast in a short 
period of time. But Senator Tester and I agreed we should get 
the hearing started, and that is what we are going to do.
    So I would first thank the Chairman for holding this 
hearing and to all of our witnesses for their presence here 
today.
    We are nearing Veterans Day, and this hearing is an 
opportunity to discuss the current state of affairs and 
economic well-being of veterans and their families, whether 
that be through education, training, and employment 
opportunities or an efficient process when utilizing your VA 
loan to purchase a home. These programs at the VA and the 
Department of Labor lead together our imperative to the 
economic success of our military and veteran families. I look 
forward to hearing today how we can enhance the interagency 
collaboration between both departments and to better utilize 
the partnerships with organizations like the ones we have 
present today.
    The last year and a half have been a challenge for student 
veterans, institutions of higher learning, and the VA. I want 
to--I did not say that very well. The last year and a half have 
been a challenge for student veterans and institutions of 
higher learning and for the VA. I want to thank the Chairman 
and members of this Committee for working together to ensure 
that student veterans and their dependents had protections that 
they needed to continue their education and training programs 
despite the challenges of the pandemic. We are still working on 
a path forward to extend some of those protections.
    The pandemic also negatively impacted veteran unemployment 
rates. In 2019, we witnessed the lowest veteran unemployment 
rate in nearly two decades, but as a result of COVID-19 the 
veteran unemployment rate rose exponentially. To help curb this 
unemployment spike, the Chairman and I drafted a bill, later 
signed into law, which created a rapid retraining program for 
veterans who wish to pursue training in certain high demand 
occupations. Through this program, along with the GI Bill, VET 
TEC programs, and others, we helped create new opportunities 
for our veterans, who are a vital part of our country's 
workforce and economy.
    While we have made great strides in recent years to improve 
in-service military to civilian transition programs, continued 
community engagement is important. I look forward to hearing 
from our VA, Department of Labor, and our witnesses about how 
we can continue to enhance opportunities for veterans and how 
to improve support after an individual enters civilian life.
    We are also here today to discuss the VA's Loan Guaranty 
Program which provides veterans the opportunity to have a piece 
of the American dream and often at a zero down payment. Today, 
I hope we can discuss the current state of affairs of the Loan 
Guaranty Program and pathways ahead to address the impacts the 
pandemic has had on national housing markets and the VA home 
loan program.
    Before I close with my remarks, I want to personally thank 
Dr. Art DeGroat from the State of Kansas, actually from Kansas 
State University. He is here on behalf of the university to 
discuss K-State's military and veteran programs and to share 
with us his background in veteran education and the transition 
from military to veteran service.
    Thank you, Art, for your decades of service in the Army and 
your continued service to our Nation's veterans.
    Lastly, before I yield back--oh, let me also thank the 
other witnesses first: Ms. Devlin from the Department of Labor, 
Mr. Burke and Mr. Da Silva from the VA.
    But before I yield back, I do want to express my concern, 
disappointment, dissatisfaction that the VA has so strongly 
opposed sending the VBA's Principal Deputy Under Secretary, the 
most senior career person at the VA and who the Chairman 
specifically requested in the written hearing invite to be here 
today. I understand that schedules have conflicts, but in this 
instance it seemed to be a complete disregard for the Chairman 
and this Committee's request. I hope this is not an indication 
of VA's lack of prioritization for the programs we will be 
discussing today, and I certainly hope this does not turn into 
a habit at the Department.
    Mr. Murray, Mr. Monk, and Mr. Schumacher, thank you for 
your being here today on behalf of the VFW, the SBA, and 
Montana State University, and I also look forward to hearing 
your testimony.
    We will call the witnesses to the table, and let me find 
the Chairman's notes. I begin by welcoming Margarita Devlin, 
the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and Management, 
Veterans Employment and Training at the Department of Labor. 
She will be followed by Ron Burke, Deputy Under Secretary for 
Policy and Oversight at the Veterans Benefits Administration. 
Mr. Burke is accompanied by Richard Da Silva, Program 
Integration Officer, Education Service.
    Ms. Devlin, the floor is yours. Thank you.

                            PANEL I

                              ----------                              


                 STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN

    Ms. Devlin. Thank you, and on behalf of the Department of 
Labor, I want to thank you for the opportunity to address 
veteran employment and education opportunities and challenges 
faced during the pandemic.
    After 26 years at the Department of Veterans Affairs, I was 
honored to join DOL VETS as the new Deputy Assistant Secretary 
for Operations and Management. I believe it is critical that we 
provide the highest quality services to enable veterans, 
transitioning servicemembers, and military spouses to achieve 
their highest potential. On a personal note, my oldest son is 
currently an active duty Marine and will be transitioning out 
next year. So this is also personal for me.
    VETS administers the Homeless Veterans Reintegration 
Program, or HVRP, and also the Jobs for Veterans State Grants. 
The Jobs for Veterans State Grants, or JVSG, is a formula grant 
available to 54 state workforce agencies, which funded 1,510 
employees in fiscal year 2021 at American Job Centers across 
the country. These positions included Disabled Veterans 
Outreach Program Specialists, Local Veterans Employment 
Representatives, and consolidated positions who perform a 
combination of both services.
    Disabled Veterans Outreach Program Specialists provide 
individualized career and training-related services to veterans 
with significant barriers to employment, with prioritized 
emphasis directed toward serving veterans who are economically 
or educationally disadvantaged. Our Local Veterans Employment 
Representatives conduct outreach to employers and business 
associations, as well as engage in advocacy efforts with hiring 
executives, to increase employment opportunities for all 
veterans.
    Our Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program has two core 
objectives, to provide services to reintegrate veterans 
experiencing homelessness or at risk for homelessness into 
employment and to stimulate the development of effective 
service delivery systems that address the complex challenges 
facing veterans who are experiencing homelessness. In fiscal 
year 2021, the Department awarded $52 million in HVRP grants. 
In performance year 2020, HVRP recipients placed 62 percent of 
exiting participants into employment, making an average of over 
$16 an hour, while also providing services to over 14,500 
veterans who were experiencing homelessness or at risk of 
homelessness.
    Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, most American Job Centers had 
to initially close their doors, and many JVSG staff were 
temporarily reassigned as rapid response to support the 
significant increases in unemployment insurance claims. Due to 
the closure, many HVRP grantees developed new methods to 
continue providing services while simultaneously leveraging new 
or reinvigorated relationships in the fight against veteran 
homelessness. For example, a Florida human resources 
professional and U.S. Army veteran, who lost his job during the 
pandemic due to downsizing, was connected to an HVRP grantee by 
the Department of Veterans Affairs Supportive Services for 
Veterans Families Program. This led to him being hired as a 
full-time senior recruiter at a nearby company where he now 
earns $50 an hour.
    Despite the pandemic challenges, from March 1st, 2021, 
through September 30th, 2021, VETS provided services to more 
than 242,000 transitioning servicemembers and their spouses in 
our portion of the Transition Assistance Program through a 
combination of virtual, instructor-led and in-person employment 
workshops. VETS also launched a career workshop curriculum for 
military spouses, which is known as the Transition Employment 
Assistance for Military Spouses, or with the acronym TEAMS.
    On April 1st, 2021, VETS launched the Employment Navigator 
and Partnership Pilot at 13 military installations, which is 
providing transitioning servicemembers and their spouses 
personalized assistance outside of the traditional workshops. 
And recent legislation extends existing authority for VETS to 
conduct an off-base transition training pilot designed to serve 
veterans and their spouses after separation from the military. 
VETS will be implementing this initiative early next calendar 
year.
    Also, you may be aware that the HIRE Vets Act required the 
Secretary of Labor to establish a program by rule that solicits 
voluntary information from employers to recognize their efforts 
to recruit, employ, and retain veterans. It is called the HIRE 
Vets Medallion Program, and this year over 870 employers from 
across the Nation submitted award applications. The official 
awards announcement will be made on November 10th.
    VETS looks forward to working with this Committee and our 
many stakeholders and partners to provide support so that all 
veterans can have a good job and opportunity for advancement.
    I thank the Committee for the opportunity to testify, and I 
look forward to any questions that you may have.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Devlin appears on page 47 of 
the Appendix.]

    Chairman Tester [presiding]. I just want to thank the Vice 
Chair, Ranking Member, the honorable Senator from Kansas's work 
in my absence. I had to go cast a vote at Indian Affairs 
Committee.
    And I want to thank you for your testimony, Secretary.
    And now I believe virtually we will have Ron Burke, Deputy 
Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight at the Veterans 
Benefits Administration. And then after he gets done, I am 
going to do my quick opening statement and follow up with some 
of the things the Ranking Member said, too, and then we will 
move on.
    So you are on, Ron Burke.

                 STATEMENT OF RONALD BURKE, JR.

                ACCOMPANIED BY RICARDO DA SILVA

    Mr. Burke. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Moran, and members of the Committee. We appreciate the 
opportunity to appear before you today to discuss veterans' 
employment, education, and home loan opportunities. 
Accompanying me today is Ricardo Da Silva, Program Integration 
Officer from Education Service.
    VA is committed to assisting servicemembers in their 
transition to civilian life. Whether education, employment or 
purchasing a home, we are working to improve access and 
outcomes for veterans. Before I delve into how we are 
delivering for our veterans, I want to touch on an evolving 
crisis.
    The COVID-19 pandemic exposed global and U.S. supply chain 
weaknesses, and we expect the manufacturing and distribution 
disruptions to continue for some time. As the virus spread, 
overall consumer demand decreased, and industrial activity, in 
turn, decreased due to the lower consumer demand and effects of 
COVID-19. With the increasing level of vaccination globally and 
the end of lockdown in many Nations, consumer demand increased 
dramatically while supply chains continued to face big 
challenges, including worker shortages and limitations in 
access to raw materials and key components.
    VA is actively addressing these challenges, implementing 
near-term methods to ensure internal VA supply chain 
resiliency, including increased demand signal monitoring, 
identification of alternatives for preferred products, and 
treating medical products as enterprise assets. Effective 
national response requires a resilient public health supply 
chain anchored in domestic manufacturing capabilities so that 
care and preventative measures can reach patients. Sustaining 
the resilience of the supply chain is critical for ensuring the 
health and wellness of the Nation as well as for national 
security, and VA is working with the White House and Executive 
Branch agencies to develop and implement the actions identified 
in the National Strategy for a Resilient Public Health Supply 
Chain.
    A fundamental priority for the VA is ensuring our veterans 
realize opportunities worthy of their skills, talents, and 
service. In order to do so, VA engages with transitioning 
servicemembers through the Transition Assistance Program and, 
once separated, through VA Solid Start to connect them with the 
resources and earned benefits.
    VA is also focused on helping veterans pursue their 
education, employment, and financial goals. It is in the midst 
of a 10-year Digital GI Bill modernization initiative and 
achieved the first major milestone in September. Improvements 
through modernization will ensure we deliver benefits faster, 
provide better customer service, and strengthen compliance and 
oversight activities.
    In addition, innovative initiatives like the Veteran Rapid 
Retraining Assistance Program and Veteran Employment Through 
Technology Education Courses provide opportunities for eligible 
beneficiaries to seek training for employment in high demand 
fields.
    VA's Veteran Readiness and Employment Program works to 
provide a structured and standardized approach to employment 
services and has engaged in creating partnerships to promote 
employment services such as job leads, career fair events, and 
opportunities for nonpaid work experience.
    With a need to increase support during these economically 
challenging times, VA launched a Personalized Career Planning 
and Guidance Program for beneficiaries to receive counseling 
and support to help guide their career paths, ensure effective 
use of benefits, and achieve career goals. VA also aims to 
improve opportunities and promote sustainability through its 
economic development initiatives which are focused on benefits 
and services, career connections, and financial literacy and 
well-being.
    Lastly, the mission of the Loan Guaranty Program is to 
maximize opportunities for veterans and servicemembers to 
obtain, retain, and adapt homes. VA has been steadfast in its 
commitment to home retention during the COVID-19 pandemic by 
implementing new programs to assist veterans with VA-guaranteed 
loans, a requested forbearance, minimized foreclosures, and 
reduced stress on the servicing ecosystem, and help ensure they 
can afford future mortgage payments.
    We are grateful for the resources that Congress has 
provided and pledge to do all we can to ensure they are used 
effectively and efficiently. Thank you for the opportunity to 
appear before you today to discuss these invaluable services to 
veterans.
    I would also like to address the absence of the Principal 
Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits in today's hearing. His 
absence, by no means, indicates his lack of respect for the 
Chairman, the Ranking Member, or this Committee, and in fact, 
Mr. Frueh values his relationship with Congress and avails 
himself for open dialogue with the Chairman, the Ranking 
Member, this Committee, or any member of Congress. I do 
apologize for the frustration caused by his absence.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony. My colleague and 
I are prepared to respond to any questions that you or other 
members of this Committee may have. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Burke appears on page 53 of 
the Appendix.]

              OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN TESTER

    Chairman Tester. Yes, well, thank you, Under Secretary 
Burke. I appreciate your testimony.
    And I want to thank the Ranking Member for covering for me 
at the beginning.
    We have heard the testimony of the first two witnesses, so 
I am not going to go into the statement of what I expected. But 
I want thank you for what you put forward, and I will have 
questions about that in a second.
    On the second panel, we are going to hear from some VSOs 
and school officials about how the VA programs are working for 
schools and students during the pandemic. We have done a lot of 
work in recent years to improve these programs. But, what more 
can we do to cut red tape, to make it easier for veterans to 
access education, employment, and home loan guaranty programs? 
And so we look forward to those after I get done with my Q&A.
    As far as the absence of the gentleman we had asked to come 
to this Committee and the fact that, Mr. Burke, you had said he 
is open for dialog for me and the Ranking Member and any 
committee member, and I appreciate that, but the truth is that 
having him in front of the Committee and being able to ask 
questions based off of what one of our other Senators on this 
Committee may bring up, a point that we may not have brought 
up, is critically important.
    We have done a lot of really good work on this Committee, 
and we have. We have done it in a bipartisan way, and we have 
passed a lot of bills, I think, that are pretty critical to 
make sure that our veterans get treated with the benefits they 
have earned.
    Another job we have to do other than passing bills, though, 
is to make sure those bills get implemented correctly. It is 
called oversight. And how we do oversight is our staffs work on 
oversight all the time and we bring folks in front of this 
Committee and ask them tough questions. And if they cannot 
answer the questions, then of course, they are sent back to get 
the answers for those questions.
    And so the Committee process is really, really important. 
And I get it. There are people that get booked and cannot come 
to the Committee hearing because at 3:00 they maybe have an 
appointment set up that has been set up for months.
    But they are not the only one at the Department that deals 
with this issue, and to not have a replacement for the person 
we initially asked for, there really is no excuse for that. 
There really is not. And if the VA is so understaffed that 
there is only one person that deals with one specific issue, 
and there is nobody else that can take their place, then we 
have got a whole 'nother problem we are going to have to deal 
with on this Committee.
    So all I would say is I appreciate, Mr. Burke, your 
description of what transpired, but the truth is that if that 
person could not make it because of a previous commitment there 
surely should have been another one that could have answered 
the tough questions.
    I am not going to beat this horse any longer. I will just 
tell you that we need to do better; that is all. Okay?
    So, now for the Q&A. And by the way, Senator Moran has 
asked some questions. I will kick my questions, too. I was not 
here. Who got here first? So, Senator Hirono, if you were here 
first, go ahead and go.

                      SENATOR MAZIE HIRONO

    Senator Hirono. Just when I am sucking on a thing here. You 
know?
    Chairman Tester. Oh, you can kick it over to Senator----
    Senator Hirono. No, that is okay. So if you hear crunching 
noises, that is why.
    Okay. For Mr. Burke, the current hypercompetitive housing 
market has made buying a home in high cost of living States 
like Hawaii almost impossible for many families, including 
veterans. Have your organizations heard from veterans about 
home buying in the current market, and are there statutory or 
programmatic changes that you would recommend, especially for 
veterans in high cost of living areas and States?
    In the State of Hawaii, the average house costs almost a 
million dollars. Really, how can a veteran or anybody else 
practically afford that? So what are some things that you all 
are doing to enable our veterans to buy a home?
    Mr. Burke. Senator, thank you very much for your question. 
The housing market has been extremely challenging, as you and 
others are keenly aware, and I appreciate your interest in this 
matter.
    I will tell you that the Loan Guaranty Division in VBA has 
been doing extensive outreach and communications. We are 
working with folks in the industry to make sure that they are 
aware of the benefits of using VA home loans. We are increasing 
our oversight capabilities to look out for those that are 
engaged in fraudulent activities in this space, increasing the 
communications, working with the National Association of 
Realtors, and just really trying to ensure that folks 
understand the value of the VA home loan process.
    And it is an area we continue to monitor. We have increased 
our training capabilities, our oversight capabilities, our 
outreach to not only veterans but again those that are in the 
industry, the National Association of Realtors and the like. So 
we will continue to monitor.
    We want veterans to know that we do have in the loan 
guaranty world two programs to assist them during these 
difficult times. That is our Partial Claim Payment Program and 
also the Refund Modification Program that folks that may be 
struggling because of the impact of COVID-19 and economic 
strife should be taking advantage of through our Loan Guaranty 
Program. So thank you for that question.
    Senator Hirono. So the Loan Guaranty Program, does it 
account for areas like Hawaii where the cost of housing is so 
high that your loan guaranty portion is simply not enough to 
enable the veterans to afford these homes? Did you take that 
into account and make adjustments to your program?
    Mr. Burke. Ma'am, I think in the loan guaranty space they 
are constantly monitoring the differentials based on cost of 
living from each State. And with respect to Loan Guaranty's 
approach to varying costs of living, we are continuously 
looking, not just in Loan Guaranty but across all of VBA, at 
ways to do continuous improvement. They are constantly looking 
at ways they can propose, whether it is a regulatory change, a 
legislative proposal, process improvements. And right now, what 
we are finding is increased communication with folks in 
industry and strengthening partnerships is one of the means 
that we are addressing.
    But, yes, ma'am, we do appraisals for all of our home 
purchases. Those appraisals are designed to ensure that the 
asked price is proper. We actually have a reconsideration of 
value process in the event that there are some discrepancies 
there, but we will continue to look at ways to address the high 
cost of living areas.
    Senator Hirono. Do you have data that shows how many of 
your veterans are able to purchase homes through your Loan 
Guaranty Program and throughout the 50 states so that you can 
make comparisons and make adjustments as necessary? Do you have 
that kind of data?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, ma'am, we do have that data. In fact, last 
year was a record-setting year for guaranteed home loans, 1.44 
million. We can break that out by----
    Senator Hirono. Yes, please.
    Mr. Burke [continuing]. Region and provide that, yes, 
ma'am.
    Senator Hirono. By state.
    Mr. Burke. By state, yes, ma'am, we can.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, ma'am.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
VA Response: VA's loan volume for FY 2021 is located at https://
 www.benefits.va.gov/HOMELOANS/ lender_state_volume.asp. Data is listed
 by State, quarter and fiscal year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Senator Hirono. For you and Mr. Da Silva, so VA has several 
different programs to support student veterans on campus, and 
these include the Vet Success on Campus Program, VSOC, which 
provides funding for campus-based counselors who can deliver 
comprehensive services for student veterans and their family 
members, for example, through academic and career counseling, 
benefits counseling, and referral services. Locally, this 
program has supported students at the University of Hawaii, 
which serves 3,500 student veterans statewide.
    Can you elaborate on the importance of programs like these 
for student veterans and their families, and do you think it 
would be helpful to expand these programs to more campuses? 
Because University of Hawaii, that is just one. You know? There 
are other campuses.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, Senator, thank you for that question. The 
Veterans' Success on Campus program is actually extremely 
valuable. We had more than 86,000 student veterans that are 
under the umbrella, if you will, of this program and the work 
of our VSOCs. We have 264 schools that are inquiring about the 
additional utilization of our VSOCs. We are considering, we are 
looking at, we are constantly assessing the need of how we 
distribute our resources, and we are looking for a, you know, 
potential FTE resource adjustment in the out years.
    The VSOC program, again, very successful. We are at over 
100 different institutions across the United States. And again, 
87 of our full-time employees are dedicated to that VSOC 
mission.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you.
    Senator Brown, are you still on or did you have to run to a 
meeting?
    [No audible response.]
    Chairman Tester. Okay. Senator Tuberville, you are up. He 
is gone.

                    SENATOR TOMMY TUBERVILLE

    Senator Tuberville. You lost him?
    Chairman Tester. I lost him.
    Senator Tuberville. Okay. Ms. Devlin, thank you for being 
here today.
    Mr. Burke, making sure our veterans know about education, 
employment, and home loan opportunities is critical, especially 
in my State of Alabama, where we have 400,000 veterans.
    Ms. Devlin, in Alabama, 1 out of every 10 resident is a 
veteran. So it is important to me that opportunities available 
to veterans both in education and employment are known and 
amplified.
    I am focused on the gap in the Nation's cybersecurity 
workforce. I think people coming straight out of service, who 
are likely already trained in some kind of cyber, could easily 
begin to fill the vulnerability. And we have 5,000 defense 
contractors alone in the State of Alabama, and Fort Rucker 
moves 600 servicemembers through TAP each year. How can the 
overall transition process be better leveraged to provide a 
seamless pipeline to get more veterans into cybersecurity?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you, Senator, for the question. One of 
the things that we are doing is we have a pilot program called 
the Employment Navigator and Partnership Pilot Program. What 
that program is helping us to do in those 13 installations is 
to provide that one-on-one, technical, specialized assistance. 
It will help us work with that servicemember to look at their 
unique skills, their abilities, their interests, and pair them 
up with the right occupations and pair them with partners that 
can help focus on industries such as cyber.
    In addition, we have our new Eightfold AI Pilot. It is a 
pilot that will match skills and opportunities with industry. 
We are just starting. We are preparing to pilot that in 
November. And that is an electronic matching system which will 
look at employers and industries across the country and help 
match the servicemember to the industry in their community that 
they are going to be moving to.
    So we have several different initiatives that are aimed at 
that, not just for cyber but for other industries. But in 
particular, we recognize the high impact and high need in 
cybersecurity, so we are definitely taking a look at that.
    Senator Tuberville. Are they used? Are these implemented 
pretty well?
    Ms. Devlin. The Employment Navigator is implemented. It was 
implemented in April. The Eightfold AI partnership, the one 
that is the electronic matching, we are going to be 
implementing that this coming fall.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
    Ms. Devlin. Later this fall.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
    Mr. Burke, the American Rescue Plan included $386 million 
for the Veterans Rapid Retraining Assistance Program, which 
offers up to 12 months of training and unemployment assistance 
for veterans who are unemployed to enter high demand 
occupations. Almost 9 months later, 84 percent of the 
authorized and appropriated funds available to this program 
remain untouched. Can you and Ms. Devlin please discuss what 
outreach each department is doing to make unemployed veterans 
aware of this program?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Thank you. And I wanted to thank 
Congress for their support of VRRAP as well. One thing I would 
like to note is that we are actually seeing the participation 
and the interest in VRRAP increase. We have got more than 2,100 
participants currently in VRRAP. There were over 10,000 
applicants with 6,938 of those receiving a certificate of 
eligibility; 128 veterans have already graduated.
    And the good news is based on our outreach and our 
communication, the communication and outreach describing the 
value of VRRAP, I will tell you that 804 training providers 
have partnered with us. So we believe that we are going to see 
the funds that came with this program committed at a higher 
rate. We are seeing the participation rate, the application 
rate, and those approved for the program increase. So we are 
encouraged by that, and that is building and increasing rather 
significantly as time goes by.
    Senator Tuberville. Ms. Devlin.
    Ms. Devlin. Yes. And if I may add, our American Job Center 
network across the country, our staff in those facilities are 
well educated on VRRAP. So if a veteran enters one of those 
AJCs and is unfamiliar with the program and has eligibility, 
that staff, whether it is a Disabled Veteran Outreach Program 
Specialist or other AJC staff, will refer the veteran to that 
program. So we are well equipped, based on veterans who come 
and seek our services because they need employment, to teach 
them about other services, other benefits available to them 
through VA.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chairman Tester. Senator Hassan.

                  SENATOR MARGARET WOOD HASSAN

    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank 
you and the Ranking Member for this hearing.
    And to our witnesses, thank you for being here.
    I have three questions for Mr. Burke, and Mr. Burke, I want 
to start by really building on the question that Senator 
Tuberville just asked. I recently introduced a bill with 
Senator Cornyn that would create a pilot program to provide 
cybersecurity training for veterans, with a focus on employing 
veterans in the Federal Government. I believe we can train more 
veterans for technology careers, especially with the success of 
the VA's existing VET TEC program, which allows veterans to 
gain computer experience.
    Mr. Burke, could you please speak to why VET TEC is popular 
with veterans and the potential for other programs that train 
veterans for technology careers?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, I can. Thank you very much and thanks for 
your support and continued support with respect to the VET TEC. 
I will provide some information and maybe ask my counterpart, 
Mr. Da Silva, to jump in as well.
    The VET TEC program is increasingly popular. In fact, we 
exhausted the $45 million last year in August. We will expend 
this year's funds well before August and have already expended 
or allocated more than $7 million of the $45 million in the 
month of October alone. 3,742 participants. Over 2,700 
graduates. 1,465 found employment with an average salary of 
more than $60,000.
    The program is available--is attractive to veterans because 
it has positive outcomes, like I said, the number of folks that 
have found employment, the average salary of the employment, 
the fact that VET TEC targets high demand occupations. And 
thank you to my partners in DOL, Ms. Devlin and her team, for 
the partnership on identifying that high demand occupation 
list. But what I can say is that again the results as we 
continue to get folks graduated from the program, get employed, 
is raising interest.
    But again, this is one where we will run out of funds much 
earlier than August and have already exhausted more than $7 
million.
    And, Mr. Da Silva, if you have anything else you would like 
to add about why this is interesting or why this is valuable to 
veterans, please feel free.
    Senator Hassan. And, Mr. Da Silva, I just would ask you to 
be pretty brief because I have two more questions.
    Mr. Da Silva. I would just add that again the model works 
and that folks, also our trained providers, see the value in 
bringing on veterans and putting them through this training 
given their own military background and those soft skills that 
they have gained through their service.
    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. And I think it would be 
terrific to be able to get more of them to come into the 
Federal service as well.
    So, Mr. Burke, I wanted to ask a question about Public 
Service Loan Forgiveness. This year, I introduced another 
bipartisan bill that allows servicemembers who paused their 
student loan payments while deployed or on extended active duty 
orders to count that time toward their Public Service Loan 
Forgiveness. Earlier this month, the Biden administration 
announced that it would implement this change through executive 
authority and apply it retroactively so that veterans could 
benefit even if they have already finished their military 
service.
    That is really great news for veterans, but I am concerned 
that many of those eligible may not hear about this change. So, 
Mr. Burke, how does the VA plan to reach out to veterans about 
these adjustments to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness 
Program to ensure that all those who are eligible for these 
benefits actually receive them?
    Mr. Burke. Thank you for your question. Thank you for 
support in this topic as well. I can tell you our Education 
Service space, they have done a phenomenal job of reaching 
veterans, student veterans, of all types across all of our 
areas. They use blogs. They use all social media platforms, 
constantly doing communications. Mr. Da Silva can fill you in. 
He is actually heavily involved in some of those. But we have a 
very extensive outreach marketing capability within Education 
Service, and if you are interested, Mr. Da Silva can provide 
some more details there.
    Senator Hassan. That would be helpful. Thank you.
    Mr. Da Silva. Certainly, we partner also with other 
agencies. Thank you for the question. We partner with other 
agencies to make sure that those pieces are known to our 
student veterans. So we often do that with Department of 
Education and others. As Mr. Burke articulated, it is done 
normally through e-mail, social media. We partner on videos. We 
believe very heavily in saturating the airwaves as much as we 
can in getting those resources and tools out to veterans and 
our servicemembers.
    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much. I am running out 
of time. So I will submit my third question for the record, but 
I do just want to note that I wanted to build on what Senator 
Hirono was asking about when it comes to the VA Home Loan 
Guaranty Program. What is happening in New Hampshire a lot is 
that the appraisals that your loan program are doing are coming 
in low and veterans do not always know that they can appeal 
those appraisals and in the meantime they are losing their 
opportunity to purchase. So it is making the loan program less 
popular and available in some ways to veterans than we would 
like it to be.
    So we will submit this question for the record, and I would 
look forward to your answer. Thank you.
    Mr. Burke. Thank you, ma'am.
    Chairman Tester. Senator Tillis.

                      SENATOR THOM TILLIS

    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you all for being either online or here to testify.
    Ms. Devlin, I was happy to hear that Cherry Point was 
picked as one of the Employment Navigator and Partnership 
Program sites. I think it is a great opportunity for us to 
participate in the program. Could you elaborate a little bit 
more on the effectiveness of the ENPP and then what you are 
likely to do with the learnings from the pilot moving forward?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. The ENPP is very 
new. We just implemented it in April. So we do not have outcome 
metrics yet, but it is popular. We have seen so far 1,963 
clients, of which 116 are military spouses so far. So it is 
popular. And what we are finding is that the partners are very 
engaged and very eager to supply data as well in terms of the 
outcomes that they are seeing.
    So we hope to--not ``we hope.'' We will have data at the 
completion of the pilot and will----
    Senator Tillis. What is the timeframe for that?
    Ms. Devlin. We would like the pilot to run for a year 
before we look at outcome data.
    Senator Tillis. Okay. Very good.
    Mr. Burke, VET TEC is another program that I am excited 
about. We have a network of community colleges and universities 
in North Carolina that have programs specifically designed for 
transitioning veterans and actually Active and Reserve 
personnel. I was down there visiting just recently with a 
special program they are doing on cybersecurity. It is a great 
collaboration between public and private institutions down 
there.
    So what are you all doing to expand educational assistance 
and maybe looking out to some of these other programs that are 
working? I know it is working in North Carolina to expand the 
opportunities for tech training, filling a desperate supply 
chain of open jobs in North Carolina and across the country.
    Mr. Burke. Well, Senator, thank you again for your interest 
in this topic. We are very excited about VET TEC. VET TEC has 
been extremely popular. We continue to increase our comms and 
our outreach and our messaging, our partnerships. Again, we 
have great partnerships with other agencies, DOL being one 
certainly, in this space as well. We have really capitalized 
on, you know, using our social media footprint in the Education 
Service, getting out there with partners, getting out there for 
folks that also have an interest in these high demand jobs.
    VET TEC will continue to be popular. We look forward to 
Congress's continued support with VET TEC. And again, the first 
month of this fiscal year, we have already allocated 7, almost 
$8 million dollars of the $45 million. So as this continues to 
serve veterans, it will help us place veterans in these very 
critical positions and vacancies across the United States.
    Senator Tillis. What visibility do you all have into other 
programs, initiatives taken like, I was saying, our community 
colleges, university, and private institution collaboration? To 
what extent should we do a better job of educating you all on 
that and see how it complements what you all are doing with 
programs like VET TEC?
    Mr. Burke. I want to give my colleague, Mr. Da Silva, an 
opportunity to jump in and provide some expertise there, and if 
we cannot answer your question completely, I will certainly 
take it for the record.
    Ricardo, let me give you the opportunity to jump in there.
    Mr. Da Silva. Thank you for the question. What we have done 
with VET TEC, specifically, sir, is we have looked to what 
others have done. We have tried to understand best practices 
and apply them to this program. So one area in the last year 
that we have heavily focused on is building out a VET TEC 
employer consortium to accelerate those hiring opportunities 
for our students participating in VET TEC. And so we are 
bringing together the training component through VET TEC and 
then that hiring component through the employer consortium, 
hoping to pair veterans with the right training with companies 
seeking to fill that talent.
    Senator Tillis. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Devlin, we have got an organization, a nonprofit 
organization, down in Charlotte called the Veterans Bridge Home 
that has done extraordinary work for transitioning veterans. So 
can you speak to what more we should do to collaborate with 
organizations like Veterans Bridge Home to fill the still unmet 
need out there in North Carolina and across the country? What 
more can we do, or what should we rethink in the way we are 
doing now?
    Ms. Devlin. Clearly in this ecosystem, when it comes to 
helping veterans, you know, it is great to partner as much as 
possible. We are open to those partnerships. We are happy to 
talk to a veteran organization if we are not already partnering 
with them.
    We partner formally through ENPP, as you are aware. We 
actually recently opened up on the 21st of October the 
application process for Employment Navigator and Partnership 
Pilot so that if additional organizations are providing the 
types of services that we provide under the Navigator Program 
they can apply to become formal partners in that program as 
well. So we would invite any organizations, if they did not see 
the announcement, to come to our website and take a look at the 
requirements to participate, and that might be another thing 
they might want to look at.
    Senator Tillis. Good. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you, Senator Tillis.
    I think I am going to ask my questions now and then be able 
to go vote. For Mr. Burke, this goes off the question that 
Senator Hassan asked about getting information out to the 
veterans about the programs that they are eligible for. You had 
talked about blogs and social media and outreach marketing. The 
fact is, though, that the GAO recently put out a report that 
found that many veterans do not know about VR&E benefits and 
recommended steps to provide them with more information. Could 
you tell me how the VA has responded to that report and 
particularly how they have responded to the recommended steps?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I can tell you that the VA takes these 
recommended findings or recommendations seriously. We go 
through and we assess each of those and determine whether it is 
an initiative that we already have in place that will address 
the recommendations or if there is something we need to put in 
play, or quite frankly, if we disagree, we engage in some 
dialog about those recommendations.
    With respect to VR&E, I can tell you that VR&E is also in 
the midst of one of their largest modernization efforts, 
improving their invoice processing, a common finding. They are 
down to .01 percent error rate in their invoice processing. 
Going electronic, going paperless if you will, with their case 
files; 175,000 files scanned and digitized at this point. So 
VR&E is setting up a lot of resources into not just their 
communications, not just program improvements, hearing feedback 
about even the rebranding of confusing words like Vocational 
Rehabilitation and changing it to Veterans Readiness and 
Employment.
    So much like Education Service, Mr. Chairman, the VR&E 
Department is also increasing their communications, their 
marketing, their use of social media, but also going back and 
making programmatic changes and improvements via modernization.
    Chairman Tester. Appreciate that, but I want to go back to 
my--appreciate all the information you gave me, but I want to 
go back to my original question unless you do not know, and 
then you can get somebody that can answer. And that is: What 
did the Department do with the recommended steps? Did they 
dispute them, or did they implement them, or did they do 
nothing?
    Mr. Burke. I will take that one for the record, sir, and we 
will get back to this Committee with the specific response to 
those recommendations.
    Chairman Tester. I appreciate that very much. I have heard 
from school officials in Montana and around the country that 
the important details about how to implement new policy changes 
are not communicated to schools. So, Mr. Burke, can you tell me 
how the VA can provide better training and communication to 
school officials about VA regulations? And a recent change in 
the 85-15 policy may be a good example to go off of.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. And I will get an assist from Mr. Da 
Silva here in a second as well, but I can tell you that one of 
the things that we have done in the Education Service is 
increase the amount of communication with the State approving 
officials and agents. They have recurring phone calls. The 
exchange of information has been improved over recent months. I 
think more work to do be done. We have been expanding the 
conversations, the communications so the word can get out to 
our partners more effectively.
    Mr. Da Silva, if you would like to jump in and speak to 
this question a little bit more, that would be appreciated.
    Mr. Da Silva. Thank you for the question. In particular 
with schools, sir, we do hold monthly office hours, webinar 
style, every month for schools to cover topics including 85-15 
on multiple occasions here in the last year. So that is one of 
our bigger venues to provide information to schools and receive 
questions that we then return via e-mail, frequently asked 
questions.
    We also attend all the national conferences and provide 
more specialized training at those. For example, today a 
colleague was at the National Association of Veterans' Program 
Administrators, providing information about the 85-15 rule and 
other things. So we do try to come at schools at varying 
avenues, including with State approving agencies, like Mr. 
Burke mentioned, and through those monthly office hours.
    Chairman Tester. Okay. Ms. Devlin, I will try to make this 
quick. We are seeing unemployment about 3.9 percent for 
veterans. That is better than it was last year, but I am 
concerned we do not have much data on underemployment for 
veterans and their families. The pandemic has exacerbated 
inequalities in the labor market, particularly for severely 
disabled veterans, women veterans, veterans of color. What has 
the Labor Department done to reach underserved and 
underemployed populations?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for that question. That is one of our 
priorities is reaching the underserved veteran population. The 
most important thing is we first have to identify where they 
are, what are their issues, and we are looking at data to help 
inform that. So as we conduct our data analysis, we will use 
that information to identify who we need to reach and where and 
how.
    I will tell you, though, the post-employment salaries 
really look promising. On average, from our Homeless Veterans' 
Reintegration Program, the average salary is over $15 an hour. 
So the other thing that we are focusing is not just any job but 
quality jobs. And what we are finding from our programs is that 
veterans who leave the program successfully employed are 
leaving the program in well-paying jobs.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, guys, very much. Appreciate it. 
Senator Moran is going to take the gavel.
    Senator Moran [presiding]. Chairman, thank you.
    Mr. Burke, having both you and Ms. Devlin at the table is 
an opportunity to discuss how the VA and the Department of 
Labor can work together at the highest levels of VBA and VETS 
to collaborate on efforts to get veterans successfully 
transitioned out of the military and into meaningful careers. 
Over the years, we have seen VA duplicate many of DOL VETS' 
efforts and create programs within VA to provide services to 
transitioning servicemembers as they reenter the workforce. 
Instead of duplicating efforts, how can VBA, working with DOL 
VETS, coordinate and collaborate in the veteran customer 
experience when it comes to transition from active duty to 
civilian life?
    Mr. Burke. So, Senator, thank you for the question. I will 
take that first, and I will say that having had many years of a 
positive working relationship with Ms. Devlin before her 
current role I think the partnership and the history makes it 
much easier to collaborate on things such as this.
    I will tell you that one of the things that is important 
when we talk about education, we talk about employment, we talk 
about, you know, housing, is really having an effective 
transition program. We do partner already with DOL in the 
transition space. I will say since Ms. Devlin's arrival in DOL 
those communications have been a little more robust and a 
little bit more active, and those have been greatly 
appreciated.
    And so basically, to serve the many, we must partner with 
many. And I think the approach that is being taken between VBA 
and DOL is a strengthened partnership that was already a good 
one, but making that better and trying to find a way to unite 
forces and programs and technologies to do a better job of that 
transition from the servicemember and their military life into 
the civilian world. We are taking advantage of things like the 
personalized career planning. We have, of course, our TAP 
program both online and in-person. And we will continue to 
partner with DOL.
    And I will defer to Ms. Devlin for her comments as well.
    Senator Moran. Ms. Devlin.
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you, Mr. Burke. We do have a great 
collaborative relationship with VBA, in fact, many formal 
collaborations as well as informal. In the formal sphere, we 
have--our governance over Transition Assistance Program is very 
formal. Ms. Cheryl Rawls is my counterpart on that and Mr. 
Mansell [phonetic] from DOD. So the three of us are strongly 
connected on the oversight of the Transition Assistance 
Program.
    There has also been a longstanding memorandum of 
understanding between Department of Labor VETS and VBA's VR&E 
program because that is really a local initiative but that is 
implemented from a national sense, to make sure that it happens 
everywhere, in communities across the country. And that is 
where our Disabled Veteran Outreach Program Coordinators at DOL 
VETS are collaborating with VR&E counselors because when you 
think about it . . . so Department of Labor is the Federal 
authority on employment, and when it comes to veterans, VETS is 
the agency responsible for veterans' employment, but of course, 
we must work with VA because VA has all of the benefits 
programs that can be invested for veterans in training, the GI 
Bill, VRRAP, VR&E, et cetera.
    So we must work together to make sure that we are not 
duplicating but enhancing each other's services and making sure 
that there is a wide safety net for every veteran to get 
everything that they need from the employment realm and from 
the training realm.
    Senator Moran. Ms. Devlin, your answer to my question 
reminds me of your testimony in your confirmation hearing, in 
which I was convinced that you were going to work well 
together, and I am glad to hear it being said that you are.
    Are there any concrete examples? It is certainly useful for 
you to highlight, you and the VA to highlight, the importance 
of working together. But, is there any evidence that it is 
happening? What can you point to, you or Mr. Burke, that would 
suggest here is an example of where something turned out better 
as a result of the way we are now doing things?
    Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. I think with respect 
to the TAP program, for example, or just transition in general. 
We have been working with VA on the Military to Civilian 
Readiness program, or not program but really paradigm, which 
really looks at the military to civilian transition from the 
one year pre- and one year post-separation. It is something 
that I believe is truly important because transition does not 
end with the DD214; it continues beyond that. And VA and DOL 
are in conversations about the customer experience and really 
taking a look at how we can get deeper knowledge about the 
experience of our transitioning servicemembers as they go 
through transition and become veterans.
    So that is an example of something that we are 
collaborating on between VA and DOL that is a new initiative 
that I think will make massive improvements as we learn by 
hearing from the voice of the veteran, him or herself, what 
they experienced during transition and what could have gone 
better.
    Senator Moran. Mr. Burke, anything that you would add for 
example purposes?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I am going to go to something Ms. 
Devlin mentioned a bit ago, and that is the relationship 
between VBA's employees, the employment coordinators, and DOL's 
employees in the VR&E space. We have more than 70 employment 
coordinators across the country, and they work hand in glove 
with these DVOP employees from DOL. And the evidence would be 
we had, despite COVID, very impressive positive outcome numbers 
in the VR&E world in fiscal year 2021, and that continues.
    The partnership between DOL and VBA in the world of, you 
know, veteran employment is really captured again as this 
example in the VR&E space. I think very productive outcomes, 
very tangible outcomes, and that partnership will just continue 
to strengthen.
    Senator Moran. Thank you both. Let me just say that what 
you are doing, or what needs to be done, at the VA and the 
Department of Labor is hugely important to the country. At a 
time in which we need more workers, more people at work, our 
veterans create a significant opportunity for that to occur.
    It is important beyond just the general nature of our 
economy and the need for workers. My experience is that in many 
instances the time in which our military men and women are most 
vulnerable to suicide is at a time in which they are 
transitioning from active duty to becoming a veteran. And 
employment is certainly a way to earn a living, but it also is 
an opportunity to provide purpose and meaning to life.
    And so I know that neither one of you would treat this just 
as a matter of paperwork or a check in the box. This is really 
about saving people's lives, enhancing their quality, and 
making our Nation function better. So it is individual and 
corporate both. And please know that anytime that I and this 
Committee can be a success to make sure that you have the 
necessary tools we are interested in doing so.
    Senator Blumenthal.

                   SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL

    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you very much, Senator Moran, and 
thank you all for your good work and for being here today.
    Many members of our veteran community and many of our 
active duty servicemembers have a hard time getting VA 
guaranteed loans by means of the traditional evaluation often 
because they lack traditional lines of credit. The result is to 
sideline millions of veterans from buying a home. The DOD 
expects our military personnel and families to relocate around 
the world, our active duty servicemembers and others to buy new 
homes, to find places to rent. The VA home loan is a hard 
earned benefit that our veterans should be able to access.
    I introduced, along with Senator Tim Scott, a measure 
called Building Credit Access for Veterans Act. It is 
bipartisan, obviously, and it enables and expands reliable 
access to housing and mortgage credit for our Nation's veterans 
and current servicemembers by streamlining and formalizing 
alternative methods of credit scoring for veterans. These 
practices have already been adopted outside the VA. They would 
be an enormous boon to veterans if they could be adopted for VA 
backed loans. And the bill would also require a report to 
Congress on how many veterans participate in the program and 
how they were affected.
    Mr. Burke, is this a significant problem, and have you 
heard from veterans that they have a hard time accessing 
credit?
    Mr. Burke. So, sir, thank you for your interest in the Loan 
Guaranty world and ensuring that our veterans are able to 
secure homes. We have heard from veterans about the importance 
of having alternative means of verifying credit other than just 
a solid credit history. As you know, the conventional means is 
a credit history. But in lieu of that, we are open to and able 
to reviewing one's ability, you know, to secure and maintain 
housing by alternate means. For example, a positive history of 
maintaining, you know, rental payments and things of that 
nature are being utilized.
    I do not have the numbers as far as the percentage of folks 
that are challenged with this, but I do believe that we are 
again utilizing rental history as a means in lieu of a credit 
report in some cases and certainly happy to work with Congress 
and give commentary and assistance on any proposed legislation.
    Senator Blumenthal. Would you back that legislation?
    Mr. Burke. To be honest with you, sir, I would have to do a 
technical assist with some subject matter experts, but we are 
happy to work with Congress to do that technical assist.
    Senator Blumenthal. Well, I appreciate that. Let me ask, 
since you have heard from some veterans about it, are there 
alternatives now available that you would recommend to veterans 
if they do not have the traditional sources?
    Mr. Burke. Well, I know a positive rental history is one 
that during my preparation for this hearing was one that was 
highlighted as an important one to highlight not only today but 
in our communication with veterans. And again, I can take this 
particular question for the record and come up with some more 
specific recommendations, and we can work with Congress on that 
as well.
    Senator Blumenthal. Great. Thank you so much.
    Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Moran. Senator Blumenthal, thank you.
    I think virtually appearing is Senator Blackburn.
    [No audible response.]
    Senator Moran. Appearing in person is Senator Boozman.

                      SENATOR JOHN BOOZMAN

    Senator Boozman. Thank you very much.
    Thank you for being here, Ms. Devlin. In your testimony, 
you highlighted the Employment Navigator and Partnership Pilot 
and some of its successes with transitioning servicemembers and 
their spouses. The pilot program, again as you know, is been 
implemented at 13 military installations. What is DOL VETS's 
plan to expand at other installations?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I think what is 
important to do is to evaluate the success of the program 
before considering expansion. It is fairly new. We implemented 
in April. It has been popular. And our partners are doing a 
good job helping our servicemembers in the areas that they 
provide services. So we have high expectations for the program, 
but the responsible thing to do is really to get the data on 
the outcomes and then consider whether expansion makes sense.
    Senator Boozman. I am hearing it has been popular. Any 
preliminary stuff? Do you see any areas maybe that we need 
improvement or ways to change?
    Ms. Devlin. Preliminarily, and I do not have the data with 
me, but we are seeing employment outcomes and satisfaction from 
the participants.
    Senator Boozman. Very good. Mr. Burke, I think Senator 
Moran addressed this earlier, but I just want to reinforce. I 
also am hearing from fellow Arkansans that veterans are having 
difficulty purchasing a home using their VA loan. The 
combination of the pandemic and inflation has increased home 
prices and created appraisal issues for our veterans. So I 
guess, again, can you tell me what VBA is doing to address the 
issue, and is there any effort to work with the housing 
industry to support veterans during this challenging time?
    And then also, I know there are areas where simply the 
workforce is teleworking or things like that. Is that part of 
this problem? Give me some reasons that we are bogging down 
with our veterans trying to get loans.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Thank you for your interest. This is 
very important to us in VBA, as it should be. I can tell you 
there are a couple things that are interfering with, you know, 
veterans' ability to use a VA loan in some cases. First off, 
cash offers are, you know, hard to beat. It is extremely 
competitive, and in this market we are seeing, you know, some 
folks opt for a cash offer instead of any other type of means.
    But the VA home loans are still a very, you know, positive 
avenue. It is the best in the world, to be honest with you; 
1.44 million loans were guaranteed in fiscal year 2021, over 
$447,000 billion.
    We are working with the National Association of Realtors to 
communicate all the benefits for veterans. We are not just 
communicating with veterans. We are getting out in the industry 
and letting them know that the benefit of a no down payment, 
the competitive interest rates, limited closing costs, all the 
benefits associated.
    But it is a really difficult market at the moment. Despite 
the challenges, again, 1.44 million loans guaranteed, that is 
15.6 percent more than the prior fiscal year despite the impact 
of COVID. The grant approvals, up 12.5 percent from the prior 
year. There is still work to be done here, but we are expanding 
our communications, working with the National Association of 
Realtors and all the partners in the industry to educate them 
on the true benefits of the VA home loan process.
    Senator Boozman. And do you have any ideas about the 
appraisal issue, specifically?
    Mr. Burke. So with the appraisals, I will tell you that an 
appraisal is required for a VA home loan. We do a lot of 
auditing of the appraisals, a lot of reviews to ensure that the 
oversight and the accuracy of the appraisals are on point.
    The processing time to actually get an appraisal is 
phenomenal in the VA space. I can tell you that 8 days to get 
an appraisal done in our top 10 states, and those 10 states 
make up 56 percent of our volume. The rest of the U.S. averages 
10 days. So speed is not an issue.
    And if there is a question about an appraisal being low, 
not only a lender but a veteran can actually request a 
reconsideration of the value, and those reviews are done in an 
expedited manner to ensure that the appraisals are actually 
fair value.
    Senator Boozman. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate 
it.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Moran. Senator Manchin, virtually. Senator?

                      SENATOR JOE MANCHIN

    Senator Manchin. I am here, sir.
    Senator Moran. The floor is yours.
    Senator Manchin. So kind of you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
it.
    This is to anybody that would like to answer this. In 
addition to my role on the Committee, I chair also the Cyber 
Subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee. And a reoccurring 
issue that has come up in my conversations with Ranking Member 
Senator Rounds is our security clearance process. Our veterans 
who receive security clearances during their service at great 
cost to the taxpayer, and that is coupled with the experience 
that gives them a competitive edge in the private sector when 
they transition. My question is this: Are we adequately taking 
advantage of transferring their clearances to influence more 
hiring appeal for our veterans?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. What I would tell 
you is that one of the things that we will do with this 
Eightfold AI partnership that we will be starting later this 
fall, around November, is really looking at the information 
that that veteran has to offer in terms of their skills, their 
abilities, their credentials, and even some of the skills that 
you would not typically see on a resume.
    But obviously, clearance can be a very valuable asset, and 
so that would be something that would be incorporated into this 
electronic matching system to help identify this servicemember, 
and eventually veteran, as somebody who has a clearance so that 
they can be matched up with jobs that require that because that 
is clearly a critical asset.
    I do not know if my VA colleagues have anything to add.
    Senator Manchin. I know it is extremely valuable. I know 
how hard it is and how long it takes. But when they have this 
type of experience level and they already have a level--I do 
not know. Are we having a hard time--I guess my follow up would 
be: How would you change the program to enable Federal, state, 
and certainly privately owned businesses to hire a veteran who 
already has a security clearance? It should not be an 
impediment. It should be a tremendous asset.
    Ms. Devlin. Indeed, it is a tremendous asset. So I am not 
an expert on the security clearance process, but I can tell you 
what I am trying to express here is that we will leverage that 
asset and make sure that when we are marketing this individual 
to employers that that is clearly articulated that that is an 
asset that they hold so that we can match them up to those jobs 
that are in high demand.
    Senator Manchin. Yes. Well, they might be a person who 
might not match up for the job, but they have the clearance, 
and people are looking for a clearance. So maybe they can make 
that job turn into something very beneficial for them. I would 
not rule them out just--there is just not that many people, and 
it is hard to get clearances today. So I would use that as a 
tremendously valued tool.
    My other question is, on a given day, West Virginia has 
about 90 to 100 VA vacancies. We have four VA hospitals and 
hundreds of others across the Federal Government, as you know. 
What can we do to incentivize more veterans to apply to these 
Federal job openings? How can we lower their barriers so that 
they are able to enter when applying?
    Mr. Burke. Senator, this is--yes, sir. Senator, from the 
VBA perspective, I can tell you there is a phenomenal 
opportunity right now to increase veteran hiring and to assist 
with our backlog and the effects of Blue Water Navy, the 
additional presumptive conditions. We are hiring more than 
2,000 claims processors. There is 2,000 opportunities for 
veterans to raise their hand and join what I think is the 
greatest mission of the Federal Government, and that is serving 
those that have served. We will continue to look at 
opportunities to bring veterans into the Federal work force.
    And through our VR&E program--and this kind of goes to your 
first question. Of our 964 vocational rehabilitation counselors 
and our 70-plus employment coordinators, they will look at the 
strengths and the skill sets and the things that veterans bring 
to the table.
    Senator Manchin. Let me follow up, Mr. Burke, if I can 
follow up. It is my understanding that the USAJobs process is 
unnecessarily difficult. So have any of our witnesses today 
successfully been hired through the USAJobs, and what are your 
unfiltered thoughts? Just give it to me, if we can help you. 
That is all.
    Mr. Burke. Sir, to be honest with you, I have not applied 
for a job through USAJobs in many years. So I have no recent 
experience.
    Senator Manchin. Do you know anybody that has and the 
difficulties they might have run into?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I will actually 
take that. I am a mentor. I mentor transitioning 
servicemembers, and I have helped them navigate the USAJobs 
system. It can be complex. I will tell you that one of the key 
things about the USAJobs system is you have to have attention 
to detail. There are questions asked in the system that you 
have to answer, and you have to upload all of the requirements. 
So, yes, can it be complex? It can be.
    Senator Manchin. How can we streamline? How do we 
streamline? I mean, you are seeing it from the inside-out, and 
I appreciate you being so honest with us on that. Help us fix 
that. So it sounds to me like an average person is not going to 
be able to go through this process unless they have help from 
someone like yourself.
    Ms. Devlin. I am happy to take that. I think that one of 
the challenges is that when you submit your resume for a 
Federal job it does not always have all of the components that 
we need in the Federal environment to evaluate. For example, do 
you have veterans' preference? Do you meet the key 
qualifications?
    And what we do not want to do is take a chance on missing a 
really qualified candidate because their resume did not capture 
all the items. So it is, I think, a balancing act in order for 
us to make sure that we can get all the qualified candidates in 
the door by giving them the opportunity to add the additional 
information that may not be on their resume.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
    And again, I want to thank the Chairman for doing just an 
outstanding job. With all the help of his Ranking Member, 
Senator Moran, they do a fantastic job running this Committee. 
Thank you both.
    Senator Moran. Well, thanks for that compliment, Senator 
Manchin. You can keep speaking because of that. No.
    I just have one question. It is kind of a little follow up 
on Senator Manchin. Does the USAJobs website--and then, Senator 
Blackburn, you will be up. Does the USAJobs website have to be 
that complex?
    Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. I have navigated the 
website, both with people that I mentor and also myself 
historically. I do not think it is incredibly complex. I think 
where people sometimes get stuck is that there are questions 
that are asked that sometimes people are not prepared to 
answer.
    Senator Moran. Okay.
    Ms. Devlin. And sometimes veterans in particular tend to be 
more modest about their skills and abilities than what we need 
them to do when they answer questions.
    Senator Moran. Thank you.
    Senator Boozman. So, very complex versus incredibly.
    Senator Moran. There you go. Senator Blackburn, virtually.

                    SENATOR MARSHA BLACKBURN

    Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And, Ms. Devlin, I want to come to you and right along the 
same line of questioning that Senator Manchin had for you. Fort 
Campbell, of course, there in Tennessee. And as you well know, 
instead of residing in Kentucky most of those individuals live 
in Tennessee, and they want to work closer to Nashville, 
somewhere there and in middle Tennessee. And what we have seen 
and we have members of our team who have retired out from Fort 
Campbell. They are very active with that community and, just as 
you were saying, underappreciating the skill set that they have 
developed.
    Working through the technology, the mentorship I think is 
so vitally important. You talked about serving as a mentor. But 
I think what gets lost is this interagency coordination between 
DOD, DOL, VETS, VA, and then translating that to these local 
employers that would like to hire these individuals.
    So what is your plan, and what is a timeline for kind of 
bringing these pieces together and having that mentorship 
program for not only the enlisted but for their spouse so that 
they begin to make this transition together? So lay out kind of 
a timeline and how you all plan to approach that, to get your 
arms around this, because we continue to fund the program and 
we continue to hear there are stumbling blocks and unresolved 
issues.
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. So I will give you 
a few pieces of information. The Employment Navigator program 
at the 13 military installations, mentorship is one of the 
services provided. We actually have a partner, American 
Corporate Partners, who is one of the nine partners in the 
pilot program, and that is exactly the service that they 
provide. So we are, through this pilot, evaluating how well 
this mentorship as well as the other services such as wrap-
around, apprenticeship, training, networking, employment 
opportunities.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay. So what is your timeline for 
completing the evaluation and saying this is worth the time and 
money and this is not?
    Ms. Devlin. The pilot will be completing its first year in 
March, and then we will be assessing the data to look at the 
outcomes of the program.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay. So we can expect some certainty 
and a way forward from you all by when?
    Ms. Devlin. Well, we will evaluate the data after March, 
and what I would say to you is within the end of fiscal year 
'22 we should have some data to report in our next 
congressional report on all of our statistics and performance.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay. So let us say then we are a year 
away; right?
    Ms. Devlin. Approximately a year away, yes, ma'am.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay. So a year away from hearing this 
is the path forward. So then how long do you think it will take 
you to make adjustments and to reshape the existing program so 
that we have that certainty?
    Ms. Devlin. Well, I will tell you, though, that we are 
currently providing these services. So we are doing this now at 
the 13 installations. These navigators are providing one-on-one 
assistance to servicemembers and their spouses right now. So 
far, we have worked with 1,963 servicemembers and spouses. So 
it is working now.
    We are getting preliminary feedback that the participants 
are satisfied with the program, that they are receiving the 
outcomes that they are looking for. But to get the thorough 
data that would really help us analyze whether this program 
should be expanded or what our next steps would be, that is the 
data that we will not have until later.
    But our American Job Center network is America's public 
workforce system, and we are in communities around the entire 
country. And we have individuals who are trained, Disabled 
Veterans Outreach Program Specialists, Local Veterans 
Employment Representatives. These individuals are trained to 
connect servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses to 
employment opportunities in their community, and they can help 
them with their resume, with the skills, with how to translate 
their military occupational specialty skills to civilian sector 
jobs.
    So we have these systems in place now. And we do know that 
we need to do a better job of marketing them, and one of the 
things that we are working on this year is to conduct more 
effective marketing to get the information out to individuals 
who may need these services.
    Senator Blackburn. Well, my time is about to expire. But I 
hope that you all appreciate for us this is a matter of how you 
scale this up. You have got a pilot program. You say you have 
helped 1,096 so far, veterans and spouses. At Fort Campbell, we 
have 400 per month that are retiring out, and that could be a 
number of 800 if you look at veteran and staff, or I should say 
as many as a universe of 800.
    So what we are very interested in is what that 
collaboration is, how you are rolling that forward, and how you 
plan to scale this up so that it is more seamless, and as 
someone is enlisted and serving they know as they get ready to 
transition out that this program is going to be right there for 
them, they are going to roll into that as a next step, and it 
is going to help place them with their skill set in the private 
or public sector. Thank you so much.
    Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Moran.
    Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
    One last question. Mr. Burke, do you have any assessment on 
the impact on VBA if it is necessary to terminate employees at 
the VA due to them being unvaccinated, with the mandate?
    Mr. Burke. Senator, thank you for that question. That is 
certainly not something I am prepared to comment on today. I am 
fully focused on the education, employment, and Loan Guaranty. 
But I can certainly--if you are asking me for my personal 
opinion, I, quite honestly, do not have one, sir.
    Senator Moran. That is probably a safe answer, but it is 
not one that I think you or anyone else can easily dismiss. And 
I know in fact today my colleagues and I inquired of the 
Secretary in writing related to this question.
    But as we are talking about your ability to deliver 
services to veterans, both at the VA and at the Department of 
Labor, your workforce is important, too. And I think it is 
important for you to have the necessary resources to meet the 
needs of veterans and their employment and their transition. It 
would be useful for me, perhaps the Committee, to have an 
understanding of what the VA's intentions are if they are 
unable to keep their workforce in place. So perhaps you may 
highlight to the Secretary the letter in which we are inquiring 
as to this topic.
    Chairman, thank you.
    Mr. Burke. Will do, sir. And I hope your grandchild is 
doing well.
    Senator Moran. Oh, nice ending. And that allows me to say 
to Secretary Devlin, thank you for raising a good son, and I 
wish him well and safety in his service.
    Chairman Tester. Well, thank you folks on the first panel. 
I appreciate your input.
    And we are going to go to the second panel now. We are 
going to hear from veterans service organizations and school 
officials. We have got four folks we are going to hear from, 
two of them virtually, two of them in person.
    Joe Schumacher, the Director of Veteran Services at Montana 
State University--Go, Cats--Joe is here virtually.
    We have got Dr. Arthur DeGroat, Executive Director of 
Military and Veterans Affairs at Kansas State University.
    Senator Moran. Mr. Chairman, that gives me the opportunity 
to say one more time we are aligned because we also can say, 
``Go, Cats.''
    Chairman Tester. There you go. And then we have got Patrick 
Murray--both these last two gentlemen are in person Legislative 
Director at the Veterans of Foreign Wars.
    And finally, virtually, we have Justin Monk, Policy 
Associate from the Student Veterans of America.
    We are going to start with you, Mr. Schumacher. I would 
like all of the folks testifying to limit your time to five 
minutes. Your entire written statement will be a part of the 
record. Go ahead, Joe.

                            PANEL II

                              ----------                              


                  STATEMENT OF JOE SCHUMACHER

    Mr. Schumacher. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran, members 
of the Committee, I want to thank you for the invitation to 
share on the topic of the student veteran experience and the 
work being done at Montana State University.
    I am joining you from the beautiful campus at MSU in 
Bozeman, Montana, where I have the pleasure of serving as the 
Director of Veteran Services and the school certifying 
official. I am a fifth-generation Montanan, a combat veteran, 
and a product of the post-
9/11 GI Bill and the very center I lead today.
    MSU has a proud history of serving veterans and their 
families. This past February, we were recognized as one of the 
top 10 most military-friendly universities amongst our peers. 
We are proud of that recognition, believe it speaks to the 
heart of our missions as the land grant university in our 
State. At MSU, we educate the sons and daughters of Montana, 
create access, and partner with our students to achieve 
positive outcomes in their lives and in the lives of their 
families. We are committed to doing our part for the future of 
Montana and our Nation and believe in the transformative power 
of education.
    This fall, as we remember the 20th anniversary of 9/11 and 
reflect on 20 years of serving combat veterans, we also 
recognize a few milestones at MSU. We celebrated our 10th 
anniversary of the Veteran Support Center, a space created to 
serve the surging number of post-9/11 veterans coming home, a 
space made possible in large part due to the partnership of the 
Chairman of this Committee. Next month, the day after Veterans 
Day, we will cut the ribbon on a new center, twice the size of 
our current space and named after a local Medal of Honor 
recipient, Staff Sergeant Travis Atkins.
    MSU and the State of Montana have invested in this space, 
invested in dedicated staff, and invested in the very futures 
of veterans who walk through our doors. We believe in this 
mission so much it is built into our strategic plan. We are 
grateful for the partnership of those on this Committee and the 
partnership of the Department of Veterans Affairs to serve 
those who have served.
    A shining example of this partnership and the outcomes we 
can achieve came in the spring of 2020 when our Nation was 
being hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. The virus had made its way 
to southwest Montana and while on spring break we made the 
decision to transition to a virtual environment for the 
remainder of the term. Practitioners like myself immediately 
saw very real challenges when it came to administering benefits 
based on our policies and regulations at the time, particularly 
as it related to the housing stipend, the piece of funding that 
allows veterans to pursue their educational goals while still 
fulfilling their financial responsibilities to their families. 
Through swift communication and the spirit to listen and learn, 
legislation was drafted, laws were signed, and policy was 
implemented that specifically addressed our issue so quickly 
that not a single veteran at MSU was negatively impacted by 
that transition.
    I bring this to you today as an example of the work we can 
do together when we communicate, when we listen, and when we 
learn from one another. I ask that we keep this outcome in mind 
as we face current challenges in policy implementation. As we 
navigate the implementation of new laws, such as the Isakson 
and Roe Act, I ask that we remember to listen and ask 
questions, ask questions of those on the ground and in the 
trenches. Come to Montana and be inspired by those who want to 
partner with you to be good stewards of the investments made by 
our Nation and those trading in their boots and uniforms for 
backpacks and school books.
    We see many challenges on the horizon. Campuses across the 
Nation still struggle with the effects of COVID-19, rising 
costs of living, and failing infrastructure. These are all 
issues Americans face. They can just be particularly 
challenging for veterans who are also navigating the stream 
while still fighting with the wounds and scars from their time 
in the military. Making that transition was one of the most 
difficult things I have ever done, and I would not have been 
successful if it were not for the investments made by MSU and 
the VA.
    If we can relieve some stress in certain areas of veterans' 
lives, this opens up mental and emotional energy to take on the 
day and find success. Mental health and suicide prevention are 
priorities for us at MSU. I am proud to share that any student 
veteran who reaches out for help will receive that help when 
they need it, free of charge. Mental health challenges and 
suicide continue to cripple our State. We, unfortunately, rank 
near the top every year in these categories. Just this past 
week, we lost a student utilizing the post-9/11 GI Bill to 
suicide.
    Last month, the Department of Veterans Affairs released 
their annual report on national veteran suicide prevention, and 
it showed that we have made some progress. However, we still 
lose 17 veterans a day to suicide, something that is 
preventable. Suicide cripples families, communities, and our 
Nation.
    We need to do more--more training, more resources and 
infrastructure to combat the factors we see in Montana and more 
partnership with local organizations who are doing the work on 
the ground. We have shown that together we can accomplish great 
things and achieve excellent outcomes if we listen to each 
other and work together. You have partners, and we are ready to 
get to work.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran, and members 
of this Committee for your time and attention. I welcome any 
questions at this time.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schumacher appears on page 
61 of the Appendix.]

    Chairman Tester. Joe, we will have questions after the 
other three get done testifying. We appreciate your statement.
    Dr. Arthur DeGroat, you are up.

                  STATEMENT OF ARTHUR DEGROAT

    Mr. DeGroat. Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, and 
members of this Committee, as a third-generation Army officer, 
I am honored for this opportunity to address you about my 
insights on the challenges of post-9/11 era veterans' 
transition to productive civilian lives after their service.
    I address you today as a combat veteran, a human science 
researcher, a practitioner of transition assistance in both 
higher education and nonprofit veterans service organizations, 
and as a personal and professional consultant. Because of my 
diverse background and immersion in this issue, I believe I 
offer you a unique and relevant perspective upon this life 
event of contemporary veterans' transition.
    While I could simply affirm some elements of success from 
my work on the frontlines of this effort, I believe that you 
deserve a more compelling insight of the larger issues of 
veteran transition. My formal written testimony offers nine 
pages of my discoveries from research and practice of the 
inherent challenges of post-9/11 era veterans, the true nature 
of this social phenomena, and examples of evidence-based 
practices that increase success. Given time limitations of this 
hearing, I wish to emphasize seven major points from my written 
testimony.
    First, I believe we are operating without a coherent 
national evidence-based strategy for veterans' transition 
assistance, which in my view explains much of our lack of 
success despite effort and commitment.
    Second, it is clear from human capital and business 
sciences that most military service today does not yield the 
tangible skills required directly for the civilian workplace, 
which is often sector-specific. This has been a documented 
trend starting in the 1950s, highlighting increasing 
specialization of modern military skills, knowledge, and 
abilities, and of little use to private industries directly.
    Thirdly, the post-9/11 era GI Bill is not serving as the 
dominant transition mechanism that current veterans need or as 
previous generations benefited from. This is more about it not 
being utilized properly than its design.
    Fourthly, our veteran unemployment statistics do not 
capture discouraged veterans who are capable workers despite 
their failure to transition successfully, indicating that the 
scale and opportunity of remediating transition assistance is 
much larger than commonly understood.
    Fifth, from my exploratory research, a successful 
transition assistance effort demands five essential factors. 
Many of these are not being addressed today, in my opinion.
    First, transitioning veterans need proper coaching to 
enable a proper mindset considering the challenges and rewards 
of transition.
    Secondly, they also need to acquire new social tools needed 
to socialize into the civilian world as an independent adult, 
many of which have not been in that world prior to their 
military service.
    Thirdly, the reality is that transition cannot be done 
alone. Mediated assistance is essential through all stages of 
this dynamic process, especially in the latter stages, meaning 
beyond their transition from the military service and to expand 
them beyond institutional connections.
    Fourthly, and perhaps most difficult for our veterans, is 
the activation of self-realization skills needed to acquire a 
new non-military personal identity that results from seeing 
their new civilian world in new ways.
    And lastly, our assistance programs need to equip our 
veterans with cross boundary skills, allowing the veteran to 
muster the mobility skills needed to negotiate their own lives 
without institutional dependence that we see today.
    In my work over the past 15 years, I have found very few 
assistance programs that meet these five imperatives.
    My sixth major point to emphasize today, and I never tend 
to find this, is that transitioning from military to civilian 
is stressful and puts veterans into the highest risk category 
of physiological and behavioral illness. I apply the 
foundational sociological tool, the Holmes and Rahe Social 
Readjustment Scale, to our veteran population, which has not 
previously been done to realize how dangerous and how risky and 
stressful that this phenomena is. Like Senator Moran mentioned, 
I do believe our veteran suicide phenomena is associated with 
transition failure.
    My seventh point is that I have found that a concierge-type 
or human-in-the-loop assisted model yields exceptional results, 
but this practice is rarely utilized where, instead, we use 
large group briefings and overreliance on giving veterans web 
based resources on their own are common methods of assistance.
    In closing, and most importantly, I believe that a holistic 
approach to preparing and mentoring veterans incorporated into 
a national strategy is essential to better serve these valuable 
citizens as they navigate the transition process into 
successful civilian lives after their service. I stand ready 
and committed to continue my work toward this end.
    Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, this concludes my 
testimony. I welcome any questions. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. DeGroat appears on page 65 
of the Appendix.]

    Chairman Tester. There will be questions, Dr. DeGroat. 
Appreciate your testimony.
    We will go with Patrick Murphy next. Patrick Murray. I am 
sorry, I made you Irish. Sorry. Maybe you are Irish.

                  STATEMENT OF PATRICK MURRAY

    Mr. Murray. Just a little bit, sir. Chairman Tester, 
Ranking Member Moran, and members of the Committee, on behalf 
of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the 
United States and its auxiliary, thank you for the opportunity 
to provide our remarks on these important topics today.
    With a looming expiration date of December 21st for student 
veteran COVID protection measures, there is an urgent need to 
extend these protections, and circumstances that require them 
still remain. If these student veterans are not able to receive 
the monthly housing allowance or work study stipends they 
counted on, they will be forced to adjust their budgets, 
potentially resulting in the inability to pursue their 
education and eventually achieve their employment goals. We 
urge Congress to quickly pass legislation that extends all 
student veteran COVID protections that are still necessary 
today.
    Gainful employment is an integral part of every veteran's 
life. VA offers a few important programs to help achieve this. 
The VR&E program has successfully helped many service-connected 
veterans pursue employment and education opportunities. 
However, the VFW remains concerned about the high caseloads the 
VR&E counselors maintain as it limits the amount of time they 
can spend with veteran clients assessing their current needs, 
goals, and what constitutes meaningful employment for each 
veteran. The VFW recommends the VA Office of Inspector General 
conduct an assessment of the VR&E program staff to determine 
the average amount of time each counselor spends working with a 
veteran, the rate of staff turnover, the length of time between 
counselor engagement, and the length of employment veterans are 
placed into through the VR&E program.
    The early success of programs like VET TEC show that an 
investment in veterans' economic outcomes is incredibly 
beneficial. The VFW asks for full funding of the VET TEC 
program, up to $125 million, to help get as many veterans 
gainfully employed in high demand jobs as quickly as possible.
    Positive employment and education outcomes can be achieved 
due to a successful transition. The VFW believes a proper and 
well-rounded transition from the military is one of the most 
important things our servicemembers need in order to ease back 
into our society with minimal hardships. To that extent, the 
VFW places great emphasis on ensuring transitioning 
servicemembers receive the best counseling and mentorship 
before they leave military service.
    The VFW's accredited service officers and our Benefits at 
Discharge Delivery, or BDD, program provide pre-discharge 
claims representation at 24 bases around the country and are 
available for transitioning servicemembers during TAP. While 
their primary role is to help servicemembers navigate their VA 
disability claims, they are also able to assist with many other 
available benefits and opportunities.
    This past year, between individual meetings and classroom 
briefings, the VFW met with over 14,000 servicemembers and 
collected 1,100 surveys from these individuals. Some of the 
data was expected considering the unprecedented changes due to 
COVID, but other numbers suggested that there is still a lot of 
improvement needed within TAP regardless of the pandemic 
situation. While there was slight improvement regarding the 
timely attendance of TAP classes, 40 percent of servicemembers 
are still not attending at least six months prior to 
separation.
    Additionally, we were very surprised to see that almost 60 
percent reported not participating in any of the three specific 
tracks that were made mandatory as part of the formal 
curriculum last year. The VFW is greatly concerned some of 
these new mandates are not being adhered to.
    Additionally, per code, each transitioning servicemember 
shall meet in person or by videoconference with a counselor 
before beginning the formal counseling to receive information 
regarding resources located in the community in which the 
member will reside after separation, retirement, or discharge. 
Our surveys and responses from our BDD representatives indicate 
these connections are not happening as described.
    In the recent Isakson-Roe Benefits Improvement Act, there 
were grants made eligible to community organizations who 
specialize in transition. TAP cannot be everything for 
everybody, but there are outside groups in specific communities 
that could provide specialized resources to transitioning 
servicemembers. If these connections to local resources are not 
being made, then these grants and opportunities will not be 
fully utilized.
    We know this Committee has done a great job focusing on 
transition, but we ask this Committee and its members to help 
focus DOD attention to ensure that proper administration of TAP 
is being done through DOD.
    Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, this concludes my 
testimony. I am prepared to answer any questions you or the 
Committee members may have.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Murray appears on page 74 of 
the Appendix.]

    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Mr. Murray. Appreciate your 
testimony.
    Justin Monk, you are up next.

                    STATEMENT OF JUSTIN MONK

    Mr. Monk. Thank you. Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, 
and members of the Committee, thank you for allowing Student 
Veterans of America to testify on improving veterans' education 
and employment opportunities after service.
    With more than 1,500 on-campus chapters, Student Veterans 
of America is committed to the empowerment of yesterday's 
warriors. Through a supportive network of chapter leaders, SVA 
works to transform the skills and experiences of student 
veterans to ensure they achieve their greatest potential.
    Before discussing the broader implication of the pandemic's 
effect on veteran education benefits, I would be remiss if I 
did not take the opportunity to encourage the Committee to 
continue proactively supporting student veterans through the 
ongoing pandemic. This Committee has been incredibly responsive 
to the needs of student veterans over the last 18 months.
    Unfortunately, as COVID continues to impact us all, that 
support is still needed, both through an extension of existing 
temporary protections and continued work around what 
protections can be made permanent for future national 
emergencies. Given that the temporary protections expire in 
December and students are already registering for next 
semester's classes, Congress must quickly alleviate any doubts 
about whether student veterans' benefits will be protected in 
the year to come.
    Over the course of the past few months, we have heard 
numerous concerns from student veterans and schools, both 
domestic and abroad, about difficulties complying with the 
recent Isakson-Roe and THRIVE Act changes. Both those establish 
numerous excellent protections for student veterans, and SVA 
continues to be grateful for the incredible work behind the 
scenes to put them into place. As is the case at times with 
large-scale efforts like these, during implementation we 
discovered that there were some unintended consequences of some 
of the most substantial provisions.
    My written testimony goes in more detail on each of these 
items. So suffice to say, in the immediate short term, we 
strongly encourage the passage of a protections package that 
includes at least the following: an extension of the current 
temporary COVID protections; a legislative solution to the 
recent Rounding Out rule changes at VA; a revision of the 
incentive compensation ban so the VA guidance matches the 
longstanding Department of Education guidance schools have 
followed for years; reasonable flexibilities regarding Section 
1018 of Isakson-Roe, which is a list of personalized 
information disclosures that schools must provide to 
prospective students; and addressing the privacy and 
information disclosure law concerns for international schools 
that prevent them from participating in Title 38.
    As we look beyond the need for an extension, the need for 
broader permanent authority for VA to proactively protect 
student veterans' benefits in national emergencies is clear. We 
recognize that further discussions are needed to better 
understand the exact scale and scope of what these protections 
would look like and the need to craft these authorities 
carefully. However, we would like to reiterate our support for 
them.
    This Committee saw firsthand the gravity of the situation 
facing tens of thousands of student veterans and their families 
as the pandemic unfolded in earnest back in March of last year. 
This year, the amount of work involved cannot be overstated, 
and it makes no sense to simply allow that work to expire 
instead of serving as a model for necessary permanent 
authorities to ensure adequate protections are available for 
the next emergency.
    Turning to the broader impacts of the pandemic, one of the 
top concerns expressed by student veterans is the inequitable 
monthly housing allowance rate distance learners receive 
compared to traditional students. While Congress, and this 
Committee in particular, responded quickly to preserve MHA 
rates for students who were attending classes in person but 
forced online, students who are enrolled solely in distance 
learning courses continued to receive an MHA rate that is half 
the national average. With everyone fully online, this 
disparity was plain for all to see. With more students learning 
online than ever before, regardless of course type, many 
student veterans see this difference as unfair or a punishment 
for their school or education choices. SVA recognizes that the 
pandemic has shown this difference to be unreasonable. Now is 
the time to begin the discussion on how best to bring parity to 
these MHA rates while keeping online educational quality in 
mind.
    On the topic of post-traditional student supports, 
childcare is one of the most frequently raised concerns by 
chapter leaders across the country. There is great need for 
childcare options on evenings and weekends when most students 
are often doing group work or studying. This makes sense 
considering the 2020 Census found 53 percent of respondents 
were parents.
    SVA is a supporter of this Committee looking for ways to 
strengthen the childcare options available to student veteran 
parents. The recent draft bill in the House would establish a 
childcare stipend that allows the flexibility to use 
nontraditional childcare options like trusted family and 
neighbors when traditional childcare is not available. This 
bill idea came directly from a VFW-SVA legislative fellow and 
SVA chapter leader, EL'ona Kearney from Evergreen State 
College. We hope this Committee will take up the bill once it 
passes through the House.
    Lastly, I would like to raise the issues of National Guard 
and Reserve benefit parity and mid-term activation protections. 
As U.S. defense plans have changed from a strategic Reserve to 
an operational Reserve, we have seen an increased operational 
tempo from members of Reserve components, especially the 
National Guard. This concern has been especially evident 
recently as we saw members of the National Guard tasked with 
responding to a steady stream of unprecedented challenges, 
including multiple natural disasters, COVID-19, and the violent 
insurrection in our Nation's capital.
    SVA has also heard from student servicemembers who face 
challenges in completing coursework or exams due to conflicts 
with short-term military training or deployments. 
Administrative issues such as withdrawal and reimbursement can 
also contribute to uncertainty for servicemembers as they 
manage concurrent military service and school obligations. SVA 
believes most institutions sincerely want to help these 
students balance their military duties with their studies, but 
students nevertheless lack a basic safety net in many 
instances.
    SVA is aware of recent efforts to bring legislative 
solutions to both of these areas and looks forward to working 
with the Committee on these issues.
    I would again like to express our appreciation for this 
Committee's commitment to act on the issues raised by student 
veterans themselves, issues that focus on how best to support 
their success on campus and beyond, like childcare and 
employment. That commitment is clearly reflected in the topics 
under consideration in today's hearing.
    Thank you again for your time, attention, and devotion to 
the cause of veterans in higher education. I look forward to 
your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Monk appears on page 82 of 
the Appendix.]

    Chairman Tester. Justin Monk, thank you for your testimony, 
and there will be questions. I will tell you, you may have 
gotten eight minutes of testimony into a five-minute 
presentation. That was pretty impressive. Good information, 
too. Thank you for that.
    I am going to start with you, Mr. Schumacher. You had 
mentioned that VBA is announcing policy changes without 
communicating important details about how to implement those 
changes to schools. So from your perspective, what improvements 
can VA and, if necessary, Congress make to ensure that school 
officials are getting the proper information and training 
required to implement any VA regulations?
    Mr. Schumacher. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman. I 
appreciated the testimony from Mr. Burke earlier in that we are 
hiring more VA workers. In my opinion and in our experience at 
the SCO level, a lot of those workers seem to be implemented at 
the front end, sort of a frontline worker. We have seen great 
improvements in customer service when you call the SCO hotline 
and lots of help being offered at that level.
    The area that I think we need to see improvement is sort of 
the noncommissioned officer, if you will, to sort of borrow 
from the military. We have communication coming down from our 
officers, being VBA, the Federal level of VA, and a lot of 
activity down on the ground, your enlisted folks.
    There seems to be a level of management and leadership 
missing sort of in the middle, and these are at the level of 
our ELRs. And for the State of Montana, our ELR is located out 
of Denver, and he oversees the States of Wyoming and Montana. 
He has a lot on his plate, and I think he needs help. And these 
are individuals who help take policy and communicate to the 
SCOs at the school level to help us stay in compliance with the 
VA and ultimately serve our student veterans better.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you for that. Yes, I think I am 
going to ask this question actually. Look, Montana is still 
struggling from COVID. It continues to be a major problem. And 
I know Montana schools are doing everything they can to support 
their students. Can you talk about what MSU is doing to support 
student veterans who tend to be a little older than the average 
college student and may have family to support?
    Mr. Schumacher. Absolutely. Thank you for the question, Mr. 
Chairman. Here at Montana State, like I said, we pride 
ourselves on serving those who have served. We go above and 
beyond simply just certifying the various chapters of the post 
9/11 GI Bill. I think ensuring the timely and accurate 
certification of those benefits is so important. Every 
student's first question when they come to campus is: How am I 
going to pay for my time here? And it only becomes more complex 
when you have a family and other greater financial 
responsibilities than maybe your 18-year-old counterpart 
student.
    So here at Montana State, we not only have that dedicated 
space for veterans to come together and have community, but 
they can also interact with dedicated staff like myself, free 
tutoring. Mental health counseling is huge, as I mentioned, 
something that we focus on. Mentors and advisors, so just 
somebody to sort of grab a hold of them and show them how to do 
this thing we call college. Yes, this is something I am very 
proud of here at MSU now.
    I know you are aware of the challenges we face here in 
southwest Montana, in Bozeman in particular. The high cost of 
living, the housing unaffordability and just the lack of 
housing options, childcare options, as was mentioned by my SVA 
counterpart, are all issues. And so when you have to choose 
between taking care of your children, making money for your 
family, or pursuing your degree, your family and your children 
are going to come first. And that means that your education you 
may have to drop classes or something like that. And so MSU is 
doing everything we can to make it so they do not have to make 
those difficult decisions.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you for that.
    Dr. DeGroat, quickly, Ph.D. or M.D.?
    Mr. DeGroat. Ed.D., Doctor of Education, Military Adult 
Development [off microphone] transition.
    Chairman Tester. Very good. Some of your testimony was 
enlightening and disturbing at the same time. And I will tell 
you that I think everybody on this Committee, everybody that 
has paid attention, has probably asked themselves many, many 
times what can we do to drop the suicide. We are losing nearly 
one an hour, and one a day would be too many. Okay?
    So the question--and you said it. You said the transition 
from military to civilian can be very, very stressful. And I 
think if you take a look at the folks, if they were never 
deployed, they are committing suicide at the same rate as folks 
who were in theater. So there is something going on, and I 
think you may have put your finger on it.
    So the question is I think when people are having change 
inflicted in their life--and this is the only thing they have 
known in their life since they have been an adult in many, many 
cases. What is the best way to approach that? I know you talked 
about having people there and not websites and not talking in 
big groups but getting folks down in small ones. What is the 
most important thing that we can be doing to make this 
transition a little less stressful?
    Mr. DeGroat. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it kind of goes 
back when I did my research initially. When we transitioned as 
a Nation from selective service and draft to the all-volunteer 
force that has well served us today, we, as a country, 
commissioned some of the best social science's relevant human 
resource, and we build a great system. There was very little to 
no studies I have ever found where we really studied anything 
other than separation. So this phenomena of transition is 
really something new in its current definition that previous 
generations did not have to face.
    So I think we are facing a new phenomena where we think we 
have done this after each war, and we have applied a lot of the 
same mechanisms that worked for previous generations, expecting 
it would work for this generation of post-9/11 era veterans. So 
there really is a lack of understanding about the nature of the 
transition experience today because it is not simply just going 
to war, coming home, and going back to the farm or going back 
to the factory. It is really a bold move. It is not just 
occupational; it is entirely life change.
    The Holmes and Rahe Social Readjustment Scale that I 
discovered lists the 43 most stressful events an adult goes 
through in their life, and it rank-orders them from 1 to 43. 
Interestingly, veterans' transition or transition from the 
military is not considered one, but it should. So I took all of 
the cases of the veterans that I individually studied on their 
life experience of transition, and almost every one had about 8 
or 9 of those 43 issues happening at the same time. And that 
was--and if you add up the stress level scores, it puts them 
over the top.
    Then I tried to figure out, you know, what is a comparative 
experience to veterans' transition, and the nearest thing you 
can find in psychological research is marital divorce. And you 
think about how unhealthy that is for all parties involved.
    So I think it starts with not really understanding that we 
are facing a very unique phenomena. This is the first 
generation of veterans who went to war as digital natives. They 
were co-present on the home front and the battle front because 
of social media. The kind of demand on their roles in combat 
while also being leaders in their homes at the same time. The 
iteration, going to combat five, six times, not going once 
until it ends.
    And then the last part I would say that is fundamentally 
different with this generation is about 80 percent of the 
previous generation of veterans were absorbed in the allied 
military career field. We had a very robust industrial base. 
The military talent and experience and the culture translated 
directly into work in defense industry or consultants or 
contractors, and those--because of outsourcing, just-in-time 
logistics, and commercial off-the-shelf acquisition, we have 
lost that industry to hire our veterans. This is the first 
generation of veterans that have to actually compete with 
people already in the workforce, and they have been absent from 
the workforce.
    So there is no silver bullet. It is just more complicated, 
Mr. Chairman, than people really take a look at it, and we use 
precedents that do not fit.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you. Thank you for that.
    Senator Moran.
    Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
    Let me begin first with Mr. Monk. In your testimony, you 
mentioned the student veterans associations' call for a 
National Guard and Reservist GI Bill parity. As you know, I 
introduced a bill to do that. I was joined by Chairman Tester. 
Would you explain for the record why there is a need for that 
parity between the National Guard and Reserve components and 
the Active Duty components? Tell us why that matters, 
particularly as it relates to the topic that we are talking 
about, training and education and transition.
    Mr. Monk. Absolutely. And thank you for the question, 
Senator. It is important because the activation orders under 
which our National Guardsmen and Reservists are activated under 
carry with it different benefit accrual structures. So if you 
were activated under one set of orders, you may receive full 
benefits just as you would if you were under Active Duty 
orders, or if you are activated under other orders, then you 
might not receive any at all. If the duration of your 
activation, for example, is under 30 days, you will be eligible 
for a different kind of benefit accrual than for orders lasting 
longer than that.
    And it is important because, as I noted in the verbal and 
written testimony, we have seen an increasing change in the 
type of orders that our Reserve components are expected to 
perform. And so the jobs and tasks are becoming more and more 
dangerous relative to their historical norms, and they are much 
closer in reality to what their Active Duty counterparts are 
also performing.
    There is a popular example of the camera operator down at 
the southern border a couple years ago that the National 
Guardsmen and the Active Duty folks were trading off during the 
day and nighttime, doing the same exact job, but the National 
Guardsmen were unable to--or were not accruing any sort of 
Federal education benefit.
    So it is important to make sure that if we are asking these 
servicemembers to do the same job and endure the same risks 
that they receive the same benefits and considerations. And so 
we think that, you know, a single day in uniform should be the 
same across any sort of activation order or service type.
    Senator Moran. Thank you for your answer, and thank you for 
your support of those individuals that are in that circumstance 
to solve their problem or solve a problem.
    Dr. DeGroat, welcome to the Nation's capital. Welcome to 
the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee. And thank you for your 
constant, persistent, educated endeavors to try to take care of 
veterans at Kansas State University and our community, across 
the State and really across the Nation. Thank you for your own 
service to the country. I hold you in high regard as I hold all 
veterans. I also hold maybe just a slightly higher regard for 
those veterans who work on behalf of their fellow veterans, and 
you exemplify that. And Dr. DeGroat is highly regarded really 
across Kansas but certainly in our home community of Manhattan.
    Doctor, you have led so many innovative programs and 
changes at K-State to assist student veterans and transitioning 
servicemembers. Maybe you could help me, help us, if you would 
discuss maybe the lessons learned, a couple, two or three 
lessons learned at Kansas State University that could be and 
should be implemented nationwide.
    Mr. DeGroat. Well, thank you very much, Senator. I think 
philosophically--and I got to start the Office of Military and 
Veterans Affairs in 2006, where our land grant university did 
not have--it had a mission of serving the military and 
veterans, but it did not necessary have an office or a full-
time employee kind of directing it.
    So, philosophically, we decided to build a military 
inclusive environment. That means that the veteran students, 
military and veteran students are not on a pedestal. They are 
well served by just being--filling in and moving in with the 
mosaic of all other students. First-generation students. 
Students off the farm. International students. And so we did 
not elevate hierarchically the role of veterans. It was 
revered. They have special benefits.
    But building a community--an institution where they are 
respected but they are equal to all other people, I think that 
developmentally prepared them to go out into the workplace and 
into the world after university, to use that period of time in 
their baccalaureate experience or graduate school experience to 
transition from institutional life in the military to more of 
an independent institutional life, not just while getting their 
skills but also how to live and conduct themselves as students.
    And we encourage our veteran students to get involved in 
other things, the Greek communities and professional societies, 
and get involved in the arts and athletics and recreation and 
things. So they are not just typical veterans. A lot of 
veterans just go to class and go back to their apartments. They 
do not really matriculate into the whole hidden curriculum of a 
college experience.
    So I think, philosophically, we have succeeded in several 
decades of really broadening the experience of our veteran 
students from simply seeking a credential that they want for 
future employment. I think that has helped a great deal.
    I used to say to our veteran student center people that it 
is great to see all of our freshmen veteran students in our 
veteran center. If they are there the day before graduation, 
maybe they have not really embraced the new identities and the 
new roles. And I would hope that they are over in the lounge 
with the engineering students if they are engineers or over 
with architecture if they are architecture students. It is not 
to diminish their veteran status, but sometimes their veteran 
status is preventing them from moving forward and re-
identifying as a K-Stater or a Montana State Bobcat or an 
accountant and then moving forward into those roles.
    It is based on the principle you have got to let something 
go in order to adopt something new. So I think that is, 
philosophically, how we have approached it and not centralized 
things and just allowed all of our university colleges and 
departments and units all embrace this philosophy of they are 
just another student and let's prepare them like we prepare all 
other students. And that seems to work better than focusing on 
their unique needs and catering to those at the expense of more 
generalizing and blending them into the common experience.
    Senator Moran. Art, thank you very much. I missed a 
sentence of your testimony because the Chairman was whispering 
in my ear that, he is something. What was the word?
    Chairman Tester. White-hot smart.
    Senator Moran. White-hot smart. I guess I agree. But I 
would conclude just again thanking you for what you do and your 
presence here. But to describe the efforts at Kansas State 
University, the Committee ought to know that Manhattan, Kansas, 
the home of K-State, is adjacent to Fort Riley, where we have 
15,000 active duty soldiers. There is about 18,000 family 
members, 29,000 veterans and retirees.
    So it is a significant component of our community, and for 
Kansas State to take such an active role in this issue has a 
real consequence.
    Chairman Tester. Senator Boozman.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Monk, in your testimony, you talked about how the 
pandemic accelerated tele-learning. And in that regard, with 
the online instruction, when it comes to veterans' education, 
can you talk a little bit about how they are successfully 
transitioning, why it is important to reach the areas that not 
getting reached, the underserved areas? And then also, what is 
your impression of the quality of education that they are 
getting with the tele-learning?
    And then it is interesting, Dr. DeGroat. You know, I 
appreciated the discussion on suicide. This is something that 
Senator Moran and I have sat next to each other, literally for 
the last 20 years, discussing.
    And again, is that playing any part, Mr. Monk, do you feel?
    I know that I was in college during the Vietnam years as 
veterans were coming back, and they lent so much to actually 
being in the classroom. You know. And again, having them there, 
getting to know them, and this and that. Can you talk a little 
bit about those things?
    And then also, we really do appreciate your work on Student 
Veterans of America.
    Mr. Monk. Thank you for the compliment, Senator, and 
certainly for the questions. I will do my best to cover 
everything you asked, and if I miss anything, please let me 
know.
    To the first point about reaching underserved folks, it is 
critically important to meet student veterans wherever they are 
and wherever they need to be met. So if that entails making 
sure that they have the proper access and, you know, connection 
to, say, reliable broadband internet to access the online 
education program that they would like to pursue, then that 
means helping them with that. If that means ensuring that they 
have adequate MHA to meet their financial needs and obligations 
in rural communities, it means that. It really just at its core 
means meeting the student veteran wherever they need to be met 
and providing them with the highest quality service that we can 
provide them and, you know, delivering their earned education 
benefits.
    To the next one about quality of online education, we think 
it has certainly improved over the last decade-plus. I mean, we 
cannot underscore enough the quality of online education and 
how it has improved leaps and bounds.
    With that said, I do want to temper expectations a little 
bit because I certainly agree with your later comment that 
being on campus and in person is valuable unto itself, even 
outside of the classroom. Just taking part and being part of a 
campus body and interacting with people from different 
backgrounds and experiences, that certainly has a tremendous 
amount of value on its own.
    Part of the decision that veterans have to make when they 
decide which program of education to pursue or which style of 
education to pursue is do the benefits of being on campus and 
the networking opportunities and things of that nature outweigh 
the benefits of online education's convenience because it comes 
directly to your home. The typically faster speed of these 
courses. Many of these programs offer faster degree programs 
and shorter turnaround, which is valuable in many cases to a 
student veteran. So however it works for them and however they 
make that decision, we have to meet them where they need to be.
    And I apologize. Now I have talked too long. There was 
another question you asked. I would like to answer it if you 
can please repeat it for me.
    Senator Boozman. No, no. That is fine. I think you actually 
covered it all. Either that or we both forgot it, which is 
quite possible.
    Mr. DeGroat. Senator, I could touch on the suicide comment. 
And I worked on the Governor's Challenge for Veteran Suicide 
when the VA released the National Strategy for the Prevention 
of Veteran Suicide. And they offered every State in the union, 
and I was one of six or seven States. Kansas.
    Sir, I learned a lot more about the suicide phenomena than 
I had previously known. And I think where it applies to 
transitioning veterans, particularly those that have not seen 
combat and you cannot explain it as unmediated combat trauma 
that still lingers, it is a combination that the veteran has 
kind of a two-pronged isolation element.
    When I interview a lot of the veterans I am studying or 
helping transition, I ask them how many Facebook likes or all 
their different friends in their social media, and 99 percent 
of them, on their devices, their social connections that they 
identify with are all military. About 10 days after they leave 
the military, those names are irrelevant. So their first level 
isolation is leaving their tribe that has been so important and 
so deep bonds. And without the ability of forming new social 
bonds or being at a workplace or in college or someplace, they 
become alone in the crowd.
    And then their second level of isolation, which I think is 
really the terminal case, is now they are out in the world, and 
they just feel like their life is not worth living. There is no 
one. There is no one that they can talk to. There is no one 
that cares if they live or die. And they make the conclusion 
that they are just alone in the world. This is why animal-based 
therapies have been successful because at least an animal gives 
them another living thing, a reason to wake up every day and 
take care of something else.
    So I think this generation has some different needs and 
different causes to these problems, but it is so devastating 
that we just cannot solve this or get it better. In fact, it is 
worse, 15 percent more this year on active duty than last. 
Despite all we have known and all we are doing and the changes 
we are making, it is still--it is a pervasive challenge that we 
have really got to get our hands on. And I am continuing to 
work it as best I can.
    Senator Boozman. Good. Well, thank you very much.
    Can I ask one more thing, Mr. Chair? And again, thank you 
so much. That is really very helpful.
    Mr. Murray, we appreciate you guys, appreciate all of you 
all's work in so many different ways. Another subject that we 
have talked about, sitting over on the House Veterans' Affairs 
Committee, Jerry and I, and then now we have got a new partner 
over here, is TAP. And you know, it has just been a problem. It 
is so much better than it used to be.
    But I am curious. You mentioned, you know, the statistics 
in regard to people not participating. And initially, you know, 
this was something that was not mandatory. It was, you know, if 
they made time. And back during those days, you know, 9/11 had 
happened and this and that. The tempo was very--so it was 
really difficult for commanders to actually make it such that 
they really--they really had a good reason sometimes that they 
could not afford, you know, for these folks to be off.
    What are you seeing? What is the reason that you are--is 
there a reason that you are finding that we simply are not 
getting this done even today?
    Mr. Murray. Senator, you are right, and I do understand the 
readiness answer.
    Senator Boozman. Sure. Which again was much more 
understandable, I think, then than now.
    Mr. Murray. But what I would say is that that seems to be 
the kind of fallback answer all the time.
    Senator Boozman. Right.
    Mr. Murray. We cannot always blame readiness for not doing 
other things. If truly they do not have the time and resources, 
the people available to send a transitioning sergeant to TAP, 
then that is maybe a larger problem.
    Senator Boozman. Right.
    Mr. Murray. If there is only a single soldier or airmen 
capable. But I mean, it is culture, and we are not going to 
legislate culture, but we need to continue to kind of grow that 
into existence.
    What I would suggest is making sure that the programs that 
are in place, the changes that have been made, are adhered to. 
The TAP cannot be--it is designed to be uniform. It is designed 
to be spread across every single base for every single 
servicemember, but there are plenty of resources in the 
community that might fit those tailored needs of each man and 
woman separating. Connecting them to those local resources, 
whether it be in New York City, California, Texas, that is 
looking for specific jobs, specific industries, that is where 
we are going to really help improve some of these outcomes. Get 
them into the schools, get them into the employment programs, 
the support groups, whether there are veteran groups in that 
community, that is what we really want to focus on.
    And that is a DOD thing. TAP is a DOD program.
    Senator Boozman. Right.
    Mr. Murray. They partner with VA and DOL, and they do a 
great partnership, but it is DOD that needs to make sure that 
they are starting from the get-go.
    Senator Boozman. No. I appreciate that fact. And yet, you 
know, many of us are intertwined in that space, so we can put 
pressure in that regard. But appreciate you and certainly 
appreciate the VFW.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you, Senator Boozman.
    I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I 
think that we came in here talking about, you know, high 
quality education leading to employment, and I think it is 
really, really important that we continue to keep our foot on 
the gas.
    I would also just say kind of a little bit off-script here 
is that the issue with mental health in this country, in the 
military, is particularly disturbing, but the truth is it is 
everywhere in our society. And I have always said if we can 
unlock what is going on in the veterans' minds with the 
transition and after they become civilians and even while they 
are in the military we may be able to transfer that information 
we know to the private sector so everybody can win.
    And I really hope that the VA and mental health groups out 
there really utilize you, Dr. DeGroat. I think that you have a 
lot to offer to this conversation that most people do not talk 
about. So I want to thank you for that.
    And look, there is nothing more important in our country 
than keeping everyone safe and healthy and housed and employed, 
and hopefully, this hearing went a step toward accomplishing 
that goal.
    With that, we will keep the record open for a week, and 
this hearing is adjourned.
   [Whereupon, at 5:09 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

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                        Statement for the Record

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