    [Senate Hearing 117-502]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                          S. Hrg. 117-502

                             SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE:
                        IMPROVING VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT,
                     EDUCATION, AND HOME LOAN OPPORTUNITIES

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                OCTOBER 27, 2021

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    49-733 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2023

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman
    Patty Murray, Washington             Jerry Moran, Kansas, Ranking
    Bernard Sanders, Vermont                 Member
    Sherrod Brown, Ohio                  John Boozman, Arkansas
    Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
    Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Mike Rounds, South Dakota
    Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Thom Tillis, North Carolina
    Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona              Dan Sullivan, Alaska
    Margaret Wood Hassan, New Hampshire  Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
                                         Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
                                         Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
                          Tony McClain, Staff Director
                     Jon Towers, Republican Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                OCTOBER 27, 2021

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Moran, Hon. Jerry, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas......     1
    Tester, Hon. Jon, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana............     6
    Hirono, Hon. Mazie K., U.S. Senator from Hawaii..................     7
    Tuberville, Hon. Tommy, U.S. Senator from Alabama................     9
    Hassan, Hon. Margaret Wood, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire......    11
    Tillis, Hon. Thom, U.S. Senator from North Carolina..............    13
    Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, U.S. Senator from Connecticut..........    19
    Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas...................    20
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, U.S. Senator from West Virginia...........    21
    Blackburn, Hon. Marsha, U.S. Senator from Tennessee..............    23

                                   WITNESSES
                                    Panel I

    Margarita Devlin, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and
      Management, Veterans Employment and Training Service,
      Department of Labor............................................     3
    Ronald Burke, Jr., Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and
      Oversight, Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of
      Veterans Affairs; accompanied by Ricardo Da Silva, Program
      Integration Officer, Education Service.........................     5

                                    Panel II

    Joe Schumacher, Director of Veteran Services, Montana State
      University.....................................................    26
    Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
      Affairs, Kansas State University...............................    28
    Patrick Murray, Legislative Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars...    30
    Justin Monk, Policy Associate, Student Veterans of America.......    32

                                    APPENDIX
                              Prepared Statements

    Margarita Devlin, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and
      Management, Veterans Employment and Training Service,
      Department of Labor............................................    47
    Ronald Burke, Jr., Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and
      Oversight, Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of
      Veterans Affairs...............................................    53
    Joe Schumacher, Director of Veteran Services, Montana State
      University.....................................................    61
    Arthur DeGroat, EdD, Executive Director of Military and Veterans
      Affairs, Kansas State University...............................    65
    Patrick Murray, Legislative Director, Veterans of Foreign Wars...    74
    Justin Monk, Policy Associate, Student Veterans of America.......    82

                            Statement for the Record

    Nate Long, Chief Executive Officer of Veterans United Home Loans.    97

                            Questions for the Record

    Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted
      by:
      Hon. Jon Tester................................................   105
      Hon. Patty Murray..............................................   110
      Hon. Sherrod Brown.............................................   112
      Hon. Kyrsten Sinema............................................   115
      Hon. Tommy Tuberville..........................................   117

    Department of Labor response to questions submitted by:
      Hon. Jon Tester................................................   120
      Hon. Patty Murray..............................................   121
      Hon. Tommy Tuberville..........................................   124

    Student Veterans of America response to questions submitted by:
      Hon. Kyrsten Sinema............................................   125

                             SUCCESS AFTER SERVICE:
                        IMPROVING VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT,.
                            EDUCATION, AND HOME LOAN
                                 OPPORTUNITIES

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2021

                                           U.S. Senate,
                                Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:05 p.m., via
    Webex and in Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon.
    Jon Tester, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Tester, Brown, Blumenthal, Hirono,
    Manchin, Sinema, Hassan, Moran, Boozman, Cassidy, Tillis,
    Blackburn, and Tuberville.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORAN

        Senator Moran [presiding]. Good afternoon. Senator Tester
    is where I should be, which is the Indian Affairs Committee for
    a markup. He will be joining us later. We also have votes that
    are ongoing, and we have one more vote to cast in a short
    period of time. But Senator Tester and I agreed we should get
    the hearing started, and that is what we are going to do.
        So I would first thank the Chairman for holding this
    hearing and to all of our witnesses for their presence here
    today.
        We are nearing Veterans Day, and this hearing is an
    opportunity to discuss the current state of affairs and
    economic well-being of veterans and their families, whether
    that be through education, training, and employment
    opportunities or an efficient process when utilizing your VA
    loan to purchase a home. These programs at the VA and the
    Department of Labor lead together our imperative to the
    economic success of our military and veteran families. I look
    forward to hearing today how we can enhance the interagency
    collaboration between both departments and to better utilize
    the partnerships with organizations like the ones we have
    present today.
        The last year and a half have been a challenge for student
    veterans, institutions of higher learning, and the VA. I want
    to--I did not say that very well. The last year and a half have
    been a challenge for student veterans and institutions of
    higher learning and for the VA. I want to thank the Chairman
    and members of this Committee for working together to ensure
    that student veterans and their dependents had protections that
    they needed to continue their education and training programs
    despite the challenges of the pandemic. We are still working on
    a path forward to extend some of those protections.
        The pandemic also negatively impacted veteran unemployment
    rates. In 2019, we witnessed the lowest veteran unemployment
    rate in nearly two decades, but as a result of COVID-19 the
    veteran unemployment rate rose exponentially. To help curb this
    unemployment spike, the Chairman and I drafted a bill, later
    signed into law, which created a rapid retraining program for
    veterans who wish to pursue training in certain high demand
    occupations. Through this program, along with the GI Bill, VET
    TEC programs, and others, we helped create new opportunities
    for our veterans, who are a vital part of our country's
    workforce and economy.
        While we have made great strides in recent years to improve
    in-service military to civilian transition programs, continued
    community engagement is important. I look forward to hearing
    from our VA, Department of Labor, and our witnesses about how
    we can continue to enhance opportunities for veterans and how
    to improve support after an individual enters civilian life.
        We are also here today to discuss the VA's Loan Guaranty
    Program which provides veterans the opportunity to have a piece
    of the American dream and often at a zero down payment. Today,
    I hope we can discuss the current state of affairs of the Loan
    Guaranty Program and pathways ahead to address the impacts the
    pandemic has had on national housing markets and the VA home
    loan program.
        Before I close with my remarks, I want to personally thank
    Dr. Art DeGroat from the State of Kansas, actually from Kansas
    State University. He is here on behalf of the university to
    discuss K-State's military and veteran programs and to share
    with us his background in veteran education and the transition
    from military to veteran service.
        Thank you, Art, for your decades of service in the Army and
    your continued service to our Nation's veterans.
        Lastly, before I yield back--oh, let me also thank the
    other witnesses first: Ms. Devlin from the Department of Labor,
    Mr. Burke and Mr. Da Silva from the VA.
        But before I yield back, I do want to express my concern,
    disappointment, dissatisfaction that the VA has so strongly
    opposed sending the VBA's Principal Deputy Under Secretary, the
    most senior career person at the VA and who the Chairman
    specifically requested in the written hearing invite to be here
    today. I understand that schedules have conflicts, but in this
    instance it seemed to be a complete disregard for the Chairman
    and this Committee's request. I hope this is not an indication
    of VA's lack of prioritization for the programs we will be
    discussing today, and I certainly hope this does not turn into
    a habit at the Department.
        Mr. Murray, Mr. Monk, and Mr. Schumacher, thank you for
    your being here today on behalf of the VFW, the SBA, and
    Montana State University, and I also look forward to hearing
    your testimony.
        We will call the witnesses to the table, and let me find
    the Chairman's notes. I begin by welcoming Margarita Devlin,
    the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations and Management,
    Veterans Employment and Training at the Department of Labor.
    She will be followed by Ron Burke, Deputy Under Secretary for
    Policy and Oversight at the Veterans Benefits Administration.
    Mr. Burke is accompanied by Richard Da Silva, Program
    Integration Officer, Education Service.
        Ms. Devlin, the floor is yours. Thank you.

                                PANEL I

                                  ----------

                     STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN

        Ms. Devlin. Thank you, and on behalf of the Department of
    Labor, I want to thank you for the opportunity to address
    veteran employment and education opportunities and challenges
    faced during the pandemic.
        After 26 years at the Department of Veterans Affairs, I was
    honored to join DOL VETS as the new Deputy Assistant Secretary
    for Operations and Management. I believe it is critical that we
    provide the highest quality services to enable veterans,
    transitioning servicemembers, and military spouses to achieve
    their highest potential. On a personal note, my oldest son is
    currently an active duty Marine and will be transitioning out
    next year. So this is also personal for me.
        VETS administers the Homeless Veterans Reintegration
    Program, or HVRP, and also the Jobs for Veterans State Grants.
    The Jobs for Veterans State Grants, or JVSG, is a formula grant
    available to 54 state workforce agencies, which funded 1,510
    employees in fiscal year 2021 at American Job Centers across
    the country. These positions included Disabled Veterans
    Outreach Program Specialists, Local Veterans Employment
    Representatives, and consolidated positions who perform a
    combination of both services.
        Disabled Veterans Outreach Program Specialists provide
    individualized career and training-related services to veterans
    with significant barriers to employment, with prioritized
    emphasis directed toward serving veterans who are economically
    or educationally disadvantaged. Our Local Veterans Employment
    Representatives conduct outreach to employers and business
    associations, as well as engage in advocacy efforts with hiring
    executives, to increase employment opportunities for all
    veterans.
        Our Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program has two core
    objectives, to provide services to reintegrate veterans
    experiencing homelessness or at risk for homelessness into
    employment and to stimulate the development of effective
    service delivery systems that address the complex challenges
    facing veterans who are experiencing homelessness. In fiscal
    year 2021, the Department awarded $52 million in HVRP grants.
    In performance year 2020, HVRP recipients placed 62 percent of
    exiting participants into employment, making an average of over
    $16 an hour, while also providing services to over 14,500
    veterans who were experiencing homelessness or at risk of
    homelessness.
        Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, most American Job Centers had
    to initially close their doors, and many JVSG staff were
    temporarily reassigned as rapid response to support the
    significant increases in unemployment insurance claims. Due to
    the closure, many HVRP grantees developed new methods to
    continue providing services while simultaneously leveraging new
    or reinvigorated relationships in the fight against veteran
    homelessness. For example, a Florida human resources
    professional and U.S. Army veteran, who lost his job during the
    pandemic due to downsizing, was connected to an HVRP grantee by
    the Department of Veterans Affairs Supportive Services for
    Veterans Families Program. This led to him being hired as a
    full-time senior recruiter at a nearby company where he now
    earns $50 an hour.
        Despite the pandemic challenges, from March 1st, 2021,
    through September 30th, 2021, VETS provided services to more
    than 242,000 transitioning servicemembers and their spouses in
    our portion of the Transition Assistance Program through a
    combination of virtual, instructor-led and in-person employment
    workshops. VETS also launched a career workshop curriculum for
    military spouses, which is known as the Transition Employment
    Assistance for Military Spouses, or with the acronym TEAMS.
        On April 1st, 2021, VETS launched the Employment Navigator
    and Partnership Pilot at 13 military installations, which is
    providing transitioning servicemembers and their spouses
    personalized assistance outside of the traditional workshops.
    And recent legislation extends existing authority for VETS to
    conduct an off-base transition training pilot designed to serve
    veterans and their spouses after separation from the military.
    VETS will be implementing this initiative early next calendar
    year.
        Also, you may be aware that the HIRE Vets Act required the
    Secretary of Labor to establish a program by rule that solicits
    voluntary information from employers to recognize their efforts
    to recruit, employ, and retain veterans. It is called the HIRE
    Vets Medallion Program, and this year over 870 employers from
    across the Nation submitted award applications. The official
    awards announcement will be made on November 10th.
        VETS looks forward to working with this Committee and our
    many stakeholders and partners to provide support so that all
    veterans can have a good job and opportunity for advancement.
        I thank the Committee for the opportunity to testify, and I
    look forward to any questions that you may have.

        [The prepared statement of Ms. Devlin appears on page 47 of
    the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester [presiding]. I just want to thank the Vice
    Chair, Ranking Member, the honorable Senator from Kansas's work
    in my absence. I had to go cast a vote at Indian Affairs
    Committee.
        And I want to thank you for your testimony, Secretary.
        And now I believe virtually we will have Ron Burke, Deputy
    Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight at the Veterans
    Benefits Administration. And then after he gets done, I am
    going to do my quick opening statement and follow up with some
    of the things the Ranking Member said, too, and then we will
    move on.
        So you are on, Ron Burke.

                     STATEMENT OF RONALD BURKE, JR.

                    ACCOMPANIED BY RICARDO DA SILVA

        Mr. Burke. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
    Moran, and members of the Committee. We appreciate the
    opportunity to appear before you today to discuss veterans'
    employment, education, and home loan opportunities.
    Accompanying me today is Ricardo Da Silva, Program Integration
    Officer from Education Service.
        VA is committed to assisting servicemembers in their
    transition to civilian life. Whether education, employment or
    purchasing a home, we are working to improve access and
    outcomes for veterans. Before I delve into how we are
    delivering for our veterans, I want to touch on an evolving
    crisis.
        The COVID-19 pandemic exposed global and U.S. supply chain
    weaknesses, and we expect the manufacturing and distribution
    disruptions to continue for some time. As the virus spread,
    overall consumer demand decreased, and industrial activity, in
    turn, decreased due to the lower consumer demand and effects of
    COVID-19. With the increasing level of vaccination globally and
    the end of lockdown in many Nations, consumer demand increased
    dramatically while supply chains continued to face big
    challenges, including worker shortages and limitations in
    access to raw materials and key components.
        VA is actively addressing these challenges, implementing
    near-term methods to ensure internal VA supply chain
    resiliency, including increased demand signal monitoring,
    identification of alternatives for preferred products, and
    treating medical products as enterprise assets. Effective
    national response requires a resilient public health supply
    chain anchored in domestic manufacturing capabilities so that
    care and preventative measures can reach patients. Sustaining
    the resilience of the supply chain is critical for ensuring the
    health and wellness of the Nation as well as for national
    security, and VA is working with the White House and Executive
    Branch agencies to develop and implement the actions identified
    in the National Strategy for a Resilient Public Health Supply
    Chain.
        A fundamental priority for the VA is ensuring our veterans
    realize opportunities worthy of their skills, talents, and
    service. In order to do so, VA engages with transitioning
    servicemembers through the Transition Assistance Program and,
    once separated, through VA Solid Start to connect them with the
    resources and earned benefits.
        VA is also focused on helping veterans pursue their
    education, employment, and financial goals. It is in the midst
    of a 10-year Digital GI Bill modernization initiative and
    achieved the first major milestone in September. Improvements
    through modernization will ensure we deliver benefits faster,
    provide better customer service, and strengthen compliance and
    oversight activities.
        In addition, innovative initiatives like the Veteran Rapid
    Retraining Assistance Program and Veteran Employment Through
    Technology Education Courses provide opportunities for eligible
    beneficiaries to seek training for employment in high demand
    fields.
        VA's Veteran Readiness and Employment Program works to
    provide a structured and standardized approach to employment
    services and has engaged in creating partnerships to promote
    employment services such as job leads, career fair events, and
    opportunities for nonpaid work experience.
        With a need to increase support during these economically
    challenging times, VA launched a Personalized Career Planning
    and Guidance Program for beneficiaries to receive counseling
    and support to help guide their career paths, ensure effective
    use of benefits, and achieve career goals. VA also aims to
    improve opportunities and promote sustainability through its
    economic development initiatives which are focused on benefits
    and services, career connections, and financial literacy and
    well-being.
        Lastly, the mission of the Loan Guaranty Program is to
    maximize opportunities for veterans and servicemembers to
    obtain, retain, and adapt homes. VA has been steadfast in its
    commitment to home retention during the COVID-19 pandemic by
    implementing new programs to assist veterans with VA-guaranteed
    loans, a requested forbearance, minimized foreclosures, and
    reduced stress on the servicing ecosystem, and help ensure they
    can afford future mortgage payments.
        We are grateful for the resources that Congress has
    provided and pledge to do all we can to ensure they are used
    effectively and efficiently. Thank you for the opportunity to
    appear before you today to discuss these invaluable services to
    veterans.
        I would also like to address the absence of the Principal
    Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits in today's hearing. His
    absence, by no means, indicates his lack of respect for the
    Chairman, the Ranking Member, or this Committee, and in fact,
    Mr. Frueh values his relationship with Congress and avails
    himself for open dialogue with the Chairman, the Ranking
    Member, this Committee, or any member of Congress. I do
    apologize for the frustration caused by his absence.
        Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony. My colleague and
    I are prepared to respond to any questions that you or other
    members of this Committee may have. Thank you.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Burke appears on page 53 of
    the Appendix.]

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN TESTER

        Chairman Tester. Yes, well, thank you, Under Secretary
    Burke. I appreciate your testimony.
        And I want to thank the Ranking Member for covering for me
    at the beginning.
        We have heard the testimony of the first two witnesses, so
    I am not going to go into the statement of what I expected. But
    I want thank you for what you put forward, and I will have
    questions about that in a second.
        On the second panel, we are going to hear from some VSOs
    and school officials about how the VA programs are working for
    schools and students during the pandemic. We have done a lot of
    work in recent years to improve these programs. But, what more
    can we do to cut red tape, to make it easier for veterans to
    access education, employment, and home loan guaranty programs?
    And so we look forward to those after I get done with my Q&A.
        As far as the absence of the gentleman we had asked to come
    to this Committee and the fact that, Mr. Burke, you had said he
    is open for dialog for me and the Ranking Member and any
    committee member, and I appreciate that, but the truth is that
    having him in front of the Committee and being able to ask
    questions based off of what one of our other Senators on this
    Committee may bring up, a point that we may not have brought
    up, is critically important.
        We have done a lot of really good work on this Committee,
    and we have. We have done it in a bipartisan way, and we have
    passed a lot of bills, I think, that are pretty critical to
    make sure that our veterans get treated with the benefits they
    have earned.
        Another job we have to do other than passing bills, though,
    is to make sure those bills get implemented correctly. It is
    called oversight. And how we do oversight is our staffs work on
    oversight all the time and we bring folks in front of this
    Committee and ask them tough questions. And if they cannot
    answer the questions, then of course, they are sent back to get
    the answers for those questions.
        And so the Committee process is really, really important.
    And I get it. There are people that get booked and cannot come
    to the Committee hearing because at 3:00 they maybe have an
    appointment set up that has been set up for months.
        But they are not the only one at the Department that deals
    with this issue, and to not have a replacement for the person
    we initially asked for, there really is no excuse for that.
    There really is not. And if the VA is so understaffed that
    there is only one person that deals with one specific issue,
    and there is nobody else that can take their place, then we
    have got a whole 'nother problem we are going to have to deal
    with on this Committee.
        So all I would say is I appreciate, Mr. Burke, your
    description of what transpired, but the truth is that if that
    person could not make it because of a previous commitment there
    surely should have been another one that could have answered
    the tough questions.
        I am not going to beat this horse any longer. I will just
    tell you that we need to do better; that is all. Okay?
        So, now for the Q&A. And by the way, Senator Moran has
    asked some questions. I will kick my questions, too. I was not
    here. Who got here first? So, Senator Hirono, if you were here
    first, go ahead and go.

                          SENATOR MAZIE HIRONO

        Senator Hirono. Just when I am sucking on a thing here. You
    know?
        Chairman Tester. Oh, you can kick it over to Senator----
        Senator Hirono. No, that is okay. So if you hear crunching
    noises, that is why.
        Okay. For Mr. Burke, the current hypercompetitive housing
    market has made buying a home in high cost of living States
    like Hawaii almost impossible for many families, including
    veterans. Have your organizations heard from veterans about
    home buying in the current market, and are there statutory or
    programmatic changes that you would recommend, especially for
    veterans in high cost of living areas and States?
        In the State of Hawaii, the average house costs almost a
    million dollars. Really, how can a veteran or anybody else
    practically afford that? So what are some things that you all
    are doing to enable our veterans to buy a home?
        Mr. Burke. Senator, thank you very much for your question.
    The housing market has been extremely challenging, as you and
    others are keenly aware, and I appreciate your interest in this
    matter.
        I will tell you that the Loan Guaranty Division in VBA has
    been doing extensive outreach and communications. We are
    working with folks in the industry to make sure that they are
    aware of the benefits of using VA home loans. We are increasing
    our oversight capabilities to look out for those that are
    engaged in fraudulent activities in this space, increasing the
    communications, working with the National Association of
    Realtors, and just really trying to ensure that folks
    understand the value of the VA home loan process.
        And it is an area we continue to monitor. We have increased
    our training capabilities, our oversight capabilities, our
    outreach to not only veterans but again those that are in the
    industry, the National Association of Realtors and the like. So
    we will continue to monitor.
        We want veterans to know that we do have in the loan
    guaranty world two programs to assist them during these
    difficult times. That is our Partial Claim Payment Program and
    also the Refund Modification Program that folks that may be
    struggling because of the impact of COVID-19 and economic
    strife should be taking advantage of through our Loan Guaranty
    Program. So thank you for that question.
        Senator Hirono. So the Loan Guaranty Program, does it
    account for areas like Hawaii where the cost of housing is so
    high that your loan guaranty portion is simply not enough to
    enable the veterans to afford these homes? Did you take that
    into account and make adjustments to your program?
        Mr. Burke. Ma'am, I think in the loan guaranty space they
    are constantly monitoring the differentials based on cost of
    living from each State. And with respect to Loan Guaranty's
    approach to varying costs of living, we are continuously
    looking, not just in Loan Guaranty but across all of VBA, at
    ways to do continuous improvement. They are constantly looking
    at ways they can propose, whether it is a regulatory change, a
    legislative proposal, process improvements. And right now, what
    we are finding is increased communication with folks in
    industry and strengthening partnerships is one of the means
    that we are addressing.
        But, yes, ma'am, we do appraisals for all of our home
    purchases. Those appraisals are designed to ensure that the
    asked price is proper. We actually have a reconsideration of
    value process in the event that there are some discrepancies
    there, but we will continue to look at ways to address the high
    cost of living areas.
        Senator Hirono. Do you have data that shows how many of
    your veterans are able to purchase homes through your Loan
    Guaranty Program and throughout the 50 states so that you can
    make comparisons and make adjustments as necessary? Do you have
    that kind of data?
        Mr. Burke. Yes, ma'am, we do have that data. In fact, last
    year was a record-setting year for guaranteed home loans, 1.44
    million. We can break that out by----
        Senator Hirono. Yes, please.
        Mr. Burke [continuing]. Region and provide that, yes,
    ma'am.
        Senator Hirono. By state.
        Mr. Burke. By state, yes, ma'am, we can.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Burke. Yes, ma'am.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VA Response: VA's loan volume for FY 2021 is located at https://
     www.benefits.va.gov/HOMELOANS/ lender_state_volume.asp. Data is listed
     by State, quarter and fiscal year.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Hirono. For you and Mr. Da Silva, so VA has several
    different programs to support student veterans on campus, and
    these include the Vet Success on Campus Program, VSOC, which
    provides funding for campus-based counselors who can deliver
    comprehensive services for student veterans and their family
    members, for example, through academic and career counseling,
    benefits counseling, and referral services. Locally, this
    program has supported students at the University of Hawaii,
    which serves 3,500 student veterans statewide.
        Can you elaborate on the importance of programs like these
    for student veterans and their families, and do you think it
    would be helpful to expand these programs to more campuses?
    Because University of Hawaii, that is just one. You know? There
    are other campuses.
        Mr. Burke. Yes, Senator, thank you for that question. The
    Veterans' Success on Campus program is actually extremely
    valuable. We had more than 86,000 student veterans that are
    under the umbrella, if you will, of this program and the work
    of our VSOCs. We have 264 schools that are inquiring about the
    additional utilization of our VSOCs. We are considering, we are
    looking at, we are constantly assessing the need of how we
    distribute our resources, and we are looking for a, you know,
    potential FTE resource adjustment in the out years.
        The VSOC program, again, very successful. We are at over
    100 different institutions across the United States. And again,
    87 of our full-time employees are dedicated to that VSOC
    mission.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you.
        Senator Brown, are you still on or did you have to run to a
    meeting?
        [No audible response.]
        Chairman Tester. Okay. Senator Tuberville, you are up. He
    is gone.

                        SENATOR TOMMY TUBERVILLE

        Senator Tuberville. You lost him?
        Chairman Tester. I lost him.
        Senator Tuberville. Okay. Ms. Devlin, thank you for being
    here today.
        Mr. Burke, making sure our veterans know about education,
    employment, and home loan opportunities is critical, especially
    in my State of Alabama, where we have 400,000 veterans.
        Ms. Devlin, in Alabama, 1 out of every 10 resident is a
    veteran. So it is important to me that opportunities available
    to veterans both in education and employment are known and
    amplified.
        I am focused on the gap in the Nation's cybersecurity
    workforce. I think people coming straight out of service, who
    are likely already trained in some kind of cyber, could easily
    begin to fill the vulnerability. And we have 5,000 defense
    contractors alone in the State of Alabama, and Fort Rucker
    moves 600 servicemembers through TAP each year. How can the
    overall transition process be better leveraged to provide a
    seamless pipeline to get more veterans into cybersecurity?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you, Senator, for the question. One of
    the things that we are doing is we have a pilot program called
    the Employment Navigator and Partnership Pilot Program. What
    that program is helping us to do in those 13 installations is
    to provide that one-on-one, technical, specialized assistance.
    It will help us work with that servicemember to look at their
    unique skills, their abilities, their interests, and pair them
    up with the right occupations and pair them with partners that
    can help focus on industries such as cyber.
        In addition, we have our new Eightfold AI Pilot. It is a
    pilot that will match skills and opportunities with industry.
    We are just starting. We are preparing to pilot that in
    November. And that is an electronic matching system which will
    look at employers and industries across the country and help
    match the servicemember to the industry in their community that
    they are going to be moving to.
        So we have several different initiatives that are aimed at
    that, not just for cyber but for other industries. But in
    particular, we recognize the high impact and high need in
    cybersecurity, so we are definitely taking a look at that.
        Senator Tuberville. Are they used? Are these implemented
    pretty well?
        Ms. Devlin. The Employment Navigator is implemented. It was
    implemented in April. The Eightfold AI partnership, the one
    that is the electronic matching, we are going to be
    implementing that this coming fall.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
        Ms. Devlin. Later this fall.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
        Mr. Burke, the American Rescue Plan included $386 million
    for the Veterans Rapid Retraining Assistance Program, which
    offers up to 12 months of training and unemployment assistance
    for veterans who are unemployed to enter high demand
    occupations. Almost 9 months later, 84 percent of the
    authorized and appropriated funds available to this program
    remain untouched. Can you and Ms. Devlin please discuss what
    outreach each department is doing to make unemployed veterans
    aware of this program?
        Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Thank you. And I wanted to thank
    Congress for their support of VRRAP as well. One thing I would
    like to note is that we are actually seeing the participation
    and the interest in VRRAP increase. We have got more than 2,100
    participants currently in VRRAP. There were over 10,000
    applicants with 6,938 of those receiving a certificate of
    eligibility; 128 veterans have already graduated.
        And the good news is based on our outreach and our
    communication, the communication and outreach describing the
    value of VRRAP, I will tell you that 804 training providers
    have partnered with us. So we believe that we are going to see
    the funds that came with this program committed at a higher
    rate. We are seeing the participation rate, the application
    rate, and those approved for the program increase. So we are
    encouraged by that, and that is building and increasing rather
    significantly as time goes by.
        Senator Tuberville. Ms. Devlin.
        Ms. Devlin. Yes. And if I may add, our American Job Center
    network across the country, our staff in those facilities are
    well educated on VRRAP. So if a veteran enters one of those
    AJCs and is unfamiliar with the program and has eligibility,
    that staff, whether it is a Disabled Veteran Outreach Program
    Specialist or other AJC staff, will refer the veteran to that
    program. So we are well equipped, based on veterans who come
    and seek our services because they need employment, to teach
    them about other services, other benefits available to them
    through VA.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Hassan.

                      SENATOR MARGARET WOOD HASSAN

        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank
    you and the Ranking Member for this hearing.
        And to our witnesses, thank you for being here.
        I have three questions for Mr. Burke, and Mr. Burke, I want
    to start by really building on the question that Senator
    Tuberville just asked. I recently introduced a bill with
    Senator Cornyn that would create a pilot program to provide
    cybersecurity training for veterans, with a focus on employing
    veterans in the Federal Government. I believe we can train more
    veterans for technology careers, especially with the success of
    the VA's existing VET TEC program, which allows veterans to
    gain computer experience.
        Mr. Burke, could you please speak to why VET TEC is popular
    with veterans and the potential for other programs that train
    veterans for technology careers?
        Mr. Burke. Yes, I can. Thank you very much and thanks for
    your support and continued support with respect to the VET TEC.
    I will provide some information and maybe ask my counterpart,
    Mr. Da Silva, to jump in as well.
        The VET TEC program is increasingly popular. In fact, we
    exhausted the $45 million last year in August. We will expend
    this year's funds well before August and have already expended
    or allocated more than $7 million of the $45 million in the
    month of October alone. 3,742 participants. Over 2,700
    graduates. 1,465 found employment with an average salary of
    more than $60,000.
        The program is available--is attractive to veterans because
    it has positive outcomes, like I said, the number of folks that
    have found employment, the average salary of the employment,
    the fact that VET TEC targets high demand occupations. And
    thank you to my partners in DOL, Ms. Devlin and her team, for
    the partnership on identifying that high demand occupation
    list. But what I can say is that again the results as we
    continue to get folks graduated from the program, get employed,
    is raising interest.
        But again, this is one where we will run out of funds much
    earlier than August and have already exhausted more than $7
    million.
        And, Mr. Da Silva, if you have anything else you would like
    to add about why this is interesting or why this is valuable to
    veterans, please feel free.
        Senator Hassan. And, Mr. Da Silva, I just would ask you to
    be pretty brief because I have two more questions.
        Mr. Da Silva. I would just add that again the model works
    and that folks, also our trained providers, see the value in
    bringing on veterans and putting them through this training
    given their own military background and those soft skills that
    they have gained through their service.
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. And I think it would be
    terrific to be able to get more of them to come into the
    Federal service as well.
        So, Mr. Burke, I wanted to ask a question about Public
    Service Loan Forgiveness. This year, I introduced another
    bipartisan bill that allows servicemembers who paused their
    student loan payments while deployed or on extended active duty
    orders to count that time toward their Public Service Loan
    Forgiveness. Earlier this month, the Biden administration
    announced that it would implement this change through executive
    authority and apply it retroactively so that veterans could
    benefit even if they have already finished their military
    service.
        That is really great news for veterans, but I am concerned
    that many of those eligible may not hear about this change. So,
    Mr. Burke, how does the VA plan to reach out to veterans about
    these adjustments to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness
    Program to ensure that all those who are eligible for these
    benefits actually receive them?
        Mr. Burke. Thank you for your question. Thank you for
    support in this topic as well. I can tell you our Education
    Service space, they have done a phenomenal job of reaching
    veterans, student veterans, of all types across all of our
    areas. They use blogs. They use all social media platforms,
    constantly doing communications. Mr. Da Silva can fill you in.
    He is actually heavily involved in some of those. But we have a
    very extensive outreach marketing capability within Education
    Service, and if you are interested, Mr. Da Silva can provide
    some more details there.
        Senator Hassan. That would be helpful. Thank you.
        Mr. Da Silva. Certainly, we partner also with other
    agencies. Thank you for the question. We partner with other
    agencies to make sure that those pieces are known to our
    student veterans. So we often do that with Department of
    Education and others. As Mr. Burke articulated, it is done
    normally through e-mail, social media. We partner on videos. We
    believe very heavily in saturating the airwaves as much as we
    can in getting those resources and tools out to veterans and
    our servicemembers.
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much. I am running out
    of time. So I will submit my third question for the record, but
    I do just want to note that I wanted to build on what Senator
    Hirono was asking about when it comes to the VA Home Loan
    Guaranty Program. What is happening in New Hampshire a lot is
    that the appraisals that your loan program are doing are coming
    in low and veterans do not always know that they can appeal
    those appraisals and in the meantime they are losing their
    opportunity to purchase. So it is making the loan program less
    popular and available in some ways to veterans than we would
    like it to be.
        So we will submit this question for the record, and I would
    look forward to your answer. Thank you.
        Mr. Burke. Thank you, ma'am.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Tillis.

                          SENATOR THOM TILLIS

        Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you all for being either online or here to testify.
        Ms. Devlin, I was happy to hear that Cherry Point was
    picked as one of the Employment Navigator and Partnership
    Program sites. I think it is a great opportunity for us to
    participate in the program. Could you elaborate a little bit
    more on the effectiveness of the ENPP and then what you are
    likely to do with the learnings from the pilot moving forward?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. The ENPP is very
    new. We just implemented it in April. So we do not have outcome
    metrics yet, but it is popular. We have seen so far 1,963
    clients, of which 116 are military spouses so far. So it is
    popular. And what we are finding is that the partners are very
    engaged and very eager to supply data as well in terms of the
    outcomes that they are seeing.
        So we hope to--not ``we hope.'' We will have data at the
    completion of the pilot and will----
        Senator Tillis. What is the timeframe for that?
        Ms. Devlin. We would like the pilot to run for a year
    before we look at outcome data.
        Senator Tillis. Okay. Very good.
        Mr. Burke, VET TEC is another program that I am excited
    about. We have a network of community colleges and universities
    in North Carolina that have programs specifically designed for
    transitioning veterans and actually Active and Reserve
    personnel. I was down there visiting just recently with a
    special program they are doing on cybersecurity. It is a great
    collaboration between public and private institutions down
    there.
        So what are you all doing to expand educational assistance
    and maybe looking out to some of these other programs that are
    working? I know it is working in North Carolina to expand the
    opportunities for tech training, filling a desperate supply
    chain of open jobs in North Carolina and across the country.
        Mr. Burke. Well, Senator, thank you again for your interest
    in this topic. We are very excited about VET TEC. VET TEC has
    been extremely popular. We continue to increase our comms and
    our outreach and our messaging, our partnerships. Again, we
    have great partnerships with other agencies, DOL being one
    certainly, in this space as well. We have really capitalized
    on, you know, using our social media footprint in the Education
    Service, getting out there with partners, getting out there for
    folks that also have an interest in these high demand jobs.
        VET TEC will continue to be popular. We look forward to
    Congress's continued support with VET TEC. And again, the first
    month of this fiscal year, we have already allocated 7, almost
    $8 million dollars of the $45 million. So as this continues to
    serve veterans, it will help us place veterans in these very
    critical positions and vacancies across the United States.
        Senator Tillis. What visibility do you all have into other
    programs, initiatives taken like, I was saying, our community
    colleges, university, and private institution collaboration? To
    what extent should we do a better job of educating you all on
    that and see how it complements what you all are doing with
    programs like VET TEC?
        Mr. Burke. I want to give my colleague, Mr. Da Silva, an
    opportunity to jump in and provide some expertise there, and if
    we cannot answer your question completely, I will certainly
    take it for the record.
        Ricardo, let me give you the opportunity to jump in there.
        Mr. Da Silva. Thank you for the question. What we have done
    with VET TEC, specifically, sir, is we have looked to what
    others have done. We have tried to understand best practices
    and apply them to this program. So one area in the last year
    that we have heavily focused on is building out a VET TEC
    employer consortium to accelerate those hiring opportunities
    for our students participating in VET TEC. And so we are
    bringing together the training component through VET TEC and
    then that hiring component through the employer consortium,
    hoping to pair veterans with the right training with companies
    seeking to fill that talent.
        Senator Tillis. Thank you very much.
        Ms. Devlin, we have got an organization, a nonprofit
    organization, down in Charlotte called the Veterans Bridge Home
    that has done extraordinary work for transitioning veterans. So
    can you speak to what more we should do to collaborate with
    organizations like Veterans Bridge Home to fill the still unmet
    need out there in North Carolina and across the country? What
    more can we do, or what should we rethink in the way we are
    doing now?
        Ms. Devlin. Clearly in this ecosystem, when it comes to
    helping veterans, you know, it is great to partner as much as
    possible. We are open to those partnerships. We are happy to
    talk to a veteran organization if we are not already partnering
    with them.
        We partner formally through ENPP, as you are aware. We
    actually recently opened up on the 21st of October the
    application process for Employment Navigator and Partnership
    Pilot so that if additional organizations are providing the
    types of services that we provide under the Navigator Program
    they can apply to become formal partners in that program as
    well. So we would invite any organizations, if they did not see
    the announcement, to come to our website and take a look at the
    requirements to participate, and that might be another thing
    they might want to look at.
        Senator Tillis. Good. Thank you very much.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you, Senator Tillis.
        I think I am going to ask my questions now and then be able
    to go vote. For Mr. Burke, this goes off the question that
    Senator Hassan asked about getting information out to the
    veterans about the programs that they are eligible for. You had
    talked about blogs and social media and outreach marketing. The
    fact is, though, that the GAO recently put out a report that
    found that many veterans do not know about VR&E benefits and
    recommended steps to provide them with more information. Could
    you tell me how the VA has responded to that report and
    particularly how they have responded to the recommended steps?
        Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I can tell you that the VA takes these
    recommended findings or recommendations seriously. We go
    through and we assess each of those and determine whether it is
    an initiative that we already have in place that will address
    the recommendations or if there is something we need to put in
    play, or quite frankly, if we disagree, we engage in some
    dialog about those recommendations.
        With respect to VR&E, I can tell you that VR&E is also in
    the midst of one of their largest modernization efforts,
    improving their invoice processing, a common finding. They are
    down to .01 percent error rate in their invoice processing.
    Going electronic, going paperless if you will, with their case
    files; 175,000 files scanned and digitized at this point. So
    VR&E is setting up a lot of resources into not just their
    communications, not just program improvements, hearing feedback
    about even the rebranding of confusing words like Vocational
    Rehabilitation and changing it to Veterans Readiness and
    Employment.
        So much like Education Service, Mr. Chairman, the VR&E
    Department is also increasing their communications, their
    marketing, their use of social media, but also going back and
    making programmatic changes and improvements via modernization.
        Chairman Tester. Appreciate that, but I want to go back to
    my--appreciate all the information you gave me, but I want to
    go back to my original question unless you do not know, and
    then you can get somebody that can answer. And that is: What
    did the Department do with the recommended steps? Did they
    dispute them, or did they implement them, or did they do
    nothing?
        Mr. Burke. I will take that one for the record, sir, and we
    will get back to this Committee with the specific response to
    those recommendations.
        Chairman Tester. I appreciate that very much. I have heard
    from school officials in Montana and around the country that
    the important details about how to implement new policy changes
    are not communicated to schools. So, Mr. Burke, can you tell me
    how the VA can provide better training and communication to
    school officials about VA regulations? And a recent change in
    the 85-15 policy may be a good example to go off of.
        Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. And I will get an assist from Mr. Da
    Silva here in a second as well, but I can tell you that one of
    the things that we have done in the Education Service is
    increase the amount of communication with the State approving
    officials and agents. They have recurring phone calls. The
    exchange of information has been improved over recent months. I
    think more work to do be done. We have been expanding the
    conversations, the communications so the word can get out to
    our partners more effectively.
        Mr. Da Silva, if you would like to jump in and speak to
    this question a little bit more, that would be appreciated.
        Mr. Da Silva. Thank you for the question. In particular
    with schools, sir, we do hold monthly office hours, webinar
    style, every month for schools to cover topics including 85-15
    on multiple occasions here in the last year. So that is one of
    our bigger venues to provide information to schools and receive
    questions that we then return via e-mail, frequently asked
    questions.
        We also attend all the national conferences and provide
    more specialized training at those. For example, today a
    colleague was at the National Association of Veterans' Program
    Administrators, providing information about the 85-15 rule and
    other things. So we do try to come at schools at varying
    avenues, including with State approving agencies, like Mr.
    Burke mentioned, and through those monthly office hours.
        Chairman Tester. Okay. Ms. Devlin, I will try to make this
    quick. We are seeing unemployment about 3.9 percent for
    veterans. That is better than it was last year, but I am
    concerned we do not have much data on underemployment for
    veterans and their families. The pandemic has exacerbated
    inequalities in the labor market, particularly for severely
    disabled veterans, women veterans, veterans of color. What has
    the Labor Department done to reach underserved and
    underemployed populations?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for that question. That is one of our
    priorities is reaching the underserved veteran population. The
    most important thing is we first have to identify where they
    are, what are their issues, and we are looking at data to help
    inform that. So as we conduct our data analysis, we will use
    that information to identify who we need to reach and where and
    how.
        I will tell you, though, the post-employment salaries
    really look promising. On average, from our Homeless Veterans'
    Reintegration Program, the average salary is over $15 an hour.
    So the other thing that we are focusing is not just any job but
    quality jobs. And what we are finding from our programs is that
    veterans who leave the program successfully employed are
    leaving the program in well-paying jobs.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, guys, very much. Appreciate it.
    Senator Moran is going to take the gavel.
        Senator Moran [presiding]. Chairman, thank you.
        Mr. Burke, having both you and Ms. Devlin at the table is
    an opportunity to discuss how the VA and the Department of
    Labor can work together at the highest levels of VBA and VETS
    to collaborate on efforts to get veterans successfully
    transitioned out of the military and into meaningful careers.
    Over the years, we have seen VA duplicate many of DOL VETS'
    efforts and create programs within VA to provide services to
    transitioning servicemembers as they reenter the workforce.
    Instead of duplicating efforts, how can VBA, working with DOL
    VETS, coordinate and collaborate in the veteran customer
    experience when it comes to transition from active duty to
    civilian life?
        Mr. Burke. So, Senator, thank you for the question. I will
    take that first, and I will say that having had many years of a
    positive working relationship with Ms. Devlin before her
    current role I think the partnership and the history makes it
    much easier to collaborate on things such as this.
        I will tell you that one of the things that is important
    when we talk about education, we talk about employment, we talk
    about, you know, housing, is really having an effective
    transition program. We do partner already with DOL in the
    transition space. I will say since Ms. Devlin's arrival in DOL
    those communications have been a little more robust and a
    little bit more active, and those have been greatly
    appreciated.
        And so basically, to serve the many, we must partner with
    many. And I think the approach that is being taken between VBA
    and DOL is a strengthened partnership that was already a good
    one, but making that better and trying to find a way to unite
    forces and programs and technologies to do a better job of that
    transition from the servicemember and their military life into
    the civilian world. We are taking advantage of things like the
    personalized career planning. We have, of course, our TAP
    program both online and in-person. And we will continue to
    partner with DOL.
        And I will defer to Ms. Devlin for her comments as well.
        Senator Moran. Ms. Devlin.
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you, Mr. Burke. We do have a great
    collaborative relationship with VBA, in fact, many formal
    collaborations as well as informal. In the formal sphere, we
    have--our governance over Transition Assistance Program is very
    formal. Ms. Cheryl Rawls is my counterpart on that and Mr.
    Mansell [phonetic] from DOD. So the three of us are strongly
    connected on the oversight of the Transition Assistance
    Program.
        There has also been a longstanding memorandum of
    understanding between Department of Labor VETS and VBA's VR&E
    program because that is really a local initiative but that is
    implemented from a national sense, to make sure that it happens
    everywhere, in communities across the country. And that is
    where our Disabled Veteran Outreach Program Coordinators at DOL
    VETS are collaborating with VR&E counselors because when you
    think about it . . . so Department of Labor is the Federal
    authority on employment, and when it comes to veterans, VETS is
    the agency responsible for veterans' employment, but of course,
    we must work with VA because VA has all of the benefits
    programs that can be invested for veterans in training, the GI
    Bill, VRRAP, VR&E, et cetera.
        So we must work together to make sure that we are not
    duplicating but enhancing each other's services and making sure
    that there is a wide safety net for every veteran to get
    everything that they need from the employment realm and from
    the training realm.
        Senator Moran. Ms. Devlin, your answer to my question
    reminds me of your testimony in your confirmation hearing, in
    which I was convinced that you were going to work well
    together, and I am glad to hear it being said that you are.
        Are there any concrete examples? It is certainly useful for
    you to highlight, you and the VA to highlight, the importance
    of working together. But, is there any evidence that it is
    happening? What can you point to, you or Mr. Burke, that would
    suggest here is an example of where something turned out better
    as a result of the way we are now doing things?
        Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. I think with respect
    to the TAP program, for example, or just transition in general.
    We have been working with VA on the Military to Civilian
    Readiness program, or not program but really paradigm, which
    really looks at the military to civilian transition from the
    one year pre- and one year post-separation. It is something
    that I believe is truly important because transition does not
    end with the DD214; it continues beyond that. And VA and DOL
    are in conversations about the customer experience and really
    taking a look at how we can get deeper knowledge about the
    experience of our transitioning servicemembers as they go
    through transition and become veterans.
        So that is an example of something that we are
    collaborating on between VA and DOL that is a new initiative
    that I think will make massive improvements as we learn by
    hearing from the voice of the veteran, him or herself, what
    they experienced during transition and what could have gone
    better.
        Senator Moran. Mr. Burke, anything that you would add for
    example purposes?
        Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I am going to go to something Ms.
    Devlin mentioned a bit ago, and that is the relationship
    between VBA's employees, the employment coordinators, and DOL's
    employees in the VR&E space. We have more than 70 employment
    coordinators across the country, and they work hand in glove
    with these DVOP employees from DOL. And the evidence would be
    we had, despite COVID, very impressive positive outcome numbers
    in the VR&E world in fiscal year 2021, and that continues.
        The partnership between DOL and VBA in the world of, you
    know, veteran employment is really captured again as this
    example in the VR&E space. I think very productive outcomes,
    very tangible outcomes, and that partnership will just continue
    to strengthen.
        Senator Moran. Thank you both. Let me just say that what
    you are doing, or what needs to be done, at the VA and the
    Department of Labor is hugely important to the country. At a
    time in which we need more workers, more people at work, our
    veterans create a significant opportunity for that to occur.
        It is important beyond just the general nature of our
    economy and the need for workers. My experience is that in many
    instances the time in which our military men and women are most
    vulnerable to suicide is at a time in which they are
    transitioning from active duty to becoming a veteran. And
    employment is certainly a way to earn a living, but it also is
    an opportunity to provide purpose and meaning to life.
        And so I know that neither one of you would treat this just
    as a matter of paperwork or a check in the box. This is really
    about saving people's lives, enhancing their quality, and
    making our Nation function better. So it is individual and
    corporate both. And please know that anytime that I and this
    Committee can be a success to make sure that you have the
    necessary tools we are interested in doing so.
        Senator Blumenthal.

                       SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL

        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you very much, Senator Moran, and
    thank you all for your good work and for being here today.
        Many members of our veteran community and many of our
    active duty servicemembers have a hard time getting VA
    guaranteed loans by means of the traditional evaluation often
    because they lack traditional lines of credit. The result is to
    sideline millions of veterans from buying a home. The DOD
    expects our military personnel and families to relocate around
    the world, our active duty servicemembers and others to buy new
    homes, to find places to rent. The VA home loan is a hard
    earned benefit that our veterans should be able to access.
        I introduced, along with Senator Tim Scott, a measure
    called Building Credit Access for Veterans Act. It is
    bipartisan, obviously, and it enables and expands reliable
    access to housing and mortgage credit for our Nation's veterans
    and current servicemembers by streamlining and formalizing
    alternative methods of credit scoring for veterans. These
    practices have already been adopted outside the VA. They would
    be an enormous boon to veterans if they could be adopted for VA
    backed loans. And the bill would also require a report to
    Congress on how many veterans participate in the program and
    how they were affected.
        Mr. Burke, is this a significant problem, and have you
    heard from veterans that they have a hard time accessing
    credit?
        Mr. Burke. So, sir, thank you for your interest in the Loan
    Guaranty world and ensuring that our veterans are able to
    secure homes. We have heard from veterans about the importance
    of having alternative means of verifying credit other than just
    a solid credit history. As you know, the conventional means is
    a credit history. But in lieu of that, we are open to and able
    to reviewing one's ability, you know, to secure and maintain
    housing by alternate means. For example, a positive history of
    maintaining, you know, rental payments and things of that
    nature are being utilized.
        I do not have the numbers as far as the percentage of folks
    that are challenged with this, but I do believe that we are
    again utilizing rental history as a means in lieu of a credit
    report in some cases and certainly happy to work with Congress
    and give commentary and assistance on any proposed legislation.
        Senator Blumenthal. Would you back that legislation?
        Mr. Burke. To be honest with you, sir, I would have to do a
    technical assist with some subject matter experts, but we are
    happy to work with Congress to do that technical assist.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, I appreciate that. Let me ask,
    since you have heard from some veterans about it, are there
    alternatives now available that you would recommend to veterans
    if they do not have the traditional sources?
        Mr. Burke. Well, I know a positive rental history is one
    that during my preparation for this hearing was one that was
    highlighted as an important one to highlight not only today but
    in our communication with veterans. And again, I can take this
    particular question for the record and come up with some more
    specific recommendations, and we can work with Congress on that
    as well.
        Senator Blumenthal. Great. Thank you so much.
        Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Moran. Senator Blumenthal, thank you.
        I think virtually appearing is Senator Blackburn.
        [No audible response.]
        Senator Moran. Appearing in person is Senator Boozman.

                          SENATOR JOHN BOOZMAN

        Senator Boozman. Thank you very much.
        Thank you for being here, Ms. Devlin. In your testimony,
    you highlighted the Employment Navigator and Partnership Pilot
    and some of its successes with transitioning servicemembers and
    their spouses. The pilot program, again as you know, is been
    implemented at 13 military installations. What is DOL VETS's
    plan to expand at other installations?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I think what is
    important to do is to evaluate the success of the program
    before considering expansion. It is fairly new. We implemented
    in April. It has been popular. And our partners are doing a
    good job helping our servicemembers in the areas that they
    provide services. So we have high expectations for the program,
    but the responsible thing to do is really to get the data on
    the outcomes and then consider whether expansion makes sense.
        Senator Boozman. I am hearing it has been popular. Any
    preliminary stuff? Do you see any areas maybe that we need
    improvement or ways to change?
        Ms. Devlin. Preliminarily, and I do not have the data with
    me, but we are seeing employment outcomes and satisfaction from
    the participants.
        Senator Boozman. Very good. Mr. Burke, I think Senator
    Moran addressed this earlier, but I just want to reinforce. I
    also am hearing from fellow Arkansans that veterans are having
    difficulty purchasing a home using their VA loan. The
    combination of the pandemic and inflation has increased home
    prices and created appraisal issues for our veterans. So I
    guess, again, can you tell me what VBA is doing to address the
    issue, and is there any effort to work with the housing
    industry to support veterans during this challenging time?
        And then also, I know there are areas where simply the
    workforce is teleworking or things like that. Is that part of
    this problem? Give me some reasons that we are bogging down
    with our veterans trying to get loans.
        Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Thank you for your interest. This is
    very important to us in VBA, as it should be. I can tell you
    there are a couple things that are interfering with, you know,
    veterans' ability to use a VA loan in some cases. First off,
    cash offers are, you know, hard to beat. It is extremely
    competitive, and in this market we are seeing, you know, some
    folks opt for a cash offer instead of any other type of means.
        But the VA home loans are still a very, you know, positive
    avenue. It is the best in the world, to be honest with you;
    1.44 million loans were guaranteed in fiscal year 2021, over
    $447,000 billion.
        We are working with the National Association of Realtors to
    communicate all the benefits for veterans. We are not just
    communicating with veterans. We are getting out in the industry
    and letting them know that the benefit of a no down payment,
    the competitive interest rates, limited closing costs, all the
    benefits associated.
        But it is a really difficult market at the moment. Despite
    the challenges, again, 1.44 million loans guaranteed, that is
    15.6 percent more than the prior fiscal year despite the impact
    of COVID. The grant approvals, up 12.5 percent from the prior
    year. There is still work to be done here, but we are expanding
    our communications, working with the National Association of
    Realtors and all the partners in the industry to educate them
    on the true benefits of the VA home loan process.
        Senator Boozman. And do you have any ideas about the
    appraisal issue, specifically?
        Mr. Burke. So with the appraisals, I will tell you that an
    appraisal is required for a VA home loan. We do a lot of
    auditing of the appraisals, a lot of reviews to ensure that the
    oversight and the accuracy of the appraisals are on point.
        The processing time to actually get an appraisal is
    phenomenal in the VA space. I can tell you that 8 days to get
    an appraisal done in our top 10 states, and those 10 states
    make up 56 percent of our volume. The rest of the U.S. averages
    10 days. So speed is not an issue.
        And if there is a question about an appraisal being low,
    not only a lender but a veteran can actually request a
    reconsideration of the value, and those reviews are done in an
    expedited manner to ensure that the appraisals are actually
    fair value.
        Senator Boozman. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate
    it.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Moran. Senator Manchin, virtually. Senator?

                          SENATOR JOE MANCHIN

        Senator Manchin. I am here, sir.
        Senator Moran. The floor is yours.
        Senator Manchin. So kind of you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
    it.
        This is to anybody that would like to answer this. In
    addition to my role on the Committee, I chair also the Cyber
    Subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee. And a reoccurring
    issue that has come up in my conversations with Ranking Member
    Senator Rounds is our security clearance process. Our veterans
    who receive security clearances during their service at great
    cost to the taxpayer, and that is coupled with the experience
    that gives them a competitive edge in the private sector when
    they transition. My question is this: Are we adequately taking
    advantage of transferring their clearances to influence more
    hiring appeal for our veterans?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. What I would tell
    you is that one of the things that we will do with this
    Eightfold AI partnership that we will be starting later this
    fall, around November, is really looking at the information
    that that veteran has to offer in terms of their skills, their
    abilities, their credentials, and even some of the skills that
    you would not typically see on a resume.
        But obviously, clearance can be a very valuable asset, and
    so that would be something that would be incorporated into this
    electronic matching system to help identify this servicemember,
    and eventually veteran, as somebody who has a clearance so that
    they can be matched up with jobs that require that because that
    is clearly a critical asset.
        I do not know if my VA colleagues have anything to add.
        Senator Manchin. I know it is extremely valuable. I know
    how hard it is and how long it takes. But when they have this
    type of experience level and they already have a level--I do
    not know. Are we having a hard time--I guess my follow up would
    be: How would you change the program to enable Federal, state,
    and certainly privately owned businesses to hire a veteran who
    already has a security clearance? It should not be an
    impediment. It should be a tremendous asset.
        Ms. Devlin. Indeed, it is a tremendous asset. So I am not
    an expert on the security clearance process, but I can tell you
    what I am trying to express here is that we will leverage that
    asset and make sure that when we are marketing this individual
    to employers that that is clearly articulated that that is an
    asset that they hold so that we can match them up to those jobs
    that are in high demand.
        Senator Manchin. Yes. Well, they might be a person who
    might not match up for the job, but they have the clearance,
    and people are looking for a clearance. So maybe they can make
    that job turn into something very beneficial for them. I would
    not rule them out just--there is just not that many people, and
    it is hard to get clearances today. So I would use that as a
    tremendously valued tool.
        My other question is, on a given day, West Virginia has
    about 90 to 100 VA vacancies. We have four VA hospitals and
    hundreds of others across the Federal Government, as you know.
    What can we do to incentivize more veterans to apply to these
    Federal job openings? How can we lower their barriers so that
    they are able to enter when applying?
        Mr. Burke. Senator, this is--yes, sir. Senator, from the
    VBA perspective, I can tell you there is a phenomenal
    opportunity right now to increase veteran hiring and to assist
    with our backlog and the effects of Blue Water Navy, the
    additional presumptive conditions. We are hiring more than
    2,000 claims processors. There is 2,000 opportunities for
    veterans to raise their hand and join what I think is the
    greatest mission of the Federal Government, and that is serving
    those that have served. We will continue to look at
    opportunities to bring veterans into the Federal work force.
        And through our VR&E program--and this kind of goes to your
    first question. Of our 964 vocational rehabilitation counselors
    and our 70-plus employment coordinators, they will look at the
    strengths and the skill sets and the things that veterans bring
    to the table.
        Senator Manchin. Let me follow up, Mr. Burke, if I can
    follow up. It is my understanding that the USAJobs process is
    unnecessarily difficult. So have any of our witnesses today
    successfully been hired through the USAJobs, and what are your
    unfiltered thoughts? Just give it to me, if we can help you.
    That is all.
        Mr. Burke. Sir, to be honest with you, I have not applied
    for a job through USAJobs in many years. So I have no recent
    experience.
        Senator Manchin. Do you know anybody that has and the
    difficulties they might have run into?
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I will actually
    take that. I am a mentor. I mentor transitioning
    servicemembers, and I have helped them navigate the USAJobs
    system. It can be complex. I will tell you that one of the key
    things about the USAJobs system is you have to have attention
    to detail. There are questions asked in the system that you
    have to answer, and you have to upload all of the requirements.
    So, yes, can it be complex? It can be.
        Senator Manchin. How can we streamline? How do we
    streamline? I mean, you are seeing it from the inside-out, and
    I appreciate you being so honest with us on that. Help us fix
    that. So it sounds to me like an average person is not going to
    be able to go through this process unless they have help from
    someone like yourself.
        Ms. Devlin. I am happy to take that. I think that one of
    the challenges is that when you submit your resume for a
    Federal job it does not always have all of the components that
    we need in the Federal environment to evaluate. For example, do
    you have veterans' preference? Do you meet the key
    qualifications?
        And what we do not want to do is take a chance on missing a
    really qualified candidate because their resume did not capture
    all the items. So it is, I think, a balancing act in order for
    us to make sure that we can get all the qualified candidates in
    the door by giving them the opportunity to add the additional
    information that may not be on their resume.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
        And again, I want to thank the Chairman for doing just an
    outstanding job. With all the help of his Ranking Member,
    Senator Moran, they do a fantastic job running this Committee.
    Thank you both.
        Senator Moran. Well, thanks for that compliment, Senator
    Manchin. You can keep speaking because of that. No.
        I just have one question. It is kind of a little follow up
    on Senator Manchin. Does the USAJobs website--and then, Senator
    Blackburn, you will be up. Does the USAJobs website have to be
    that complex?
        Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. I have navigated the
    website, both with people that I mentor and also myself
    historically. I do not think it is incredibly complex. I think
    where people sometimes get stuck is that there are questions
    that are asked that sometimes people are not prepared to
    answer.
        Senator Moran. Okay.
        Ms. Devlin. And sometimes veterans in particular tend to be
    more modest about their skills and abilities than what we need
    them to do when they answer questions.
        Senator Moran. Thank you.
        Senator Boozman. So, very complex versus incredibly.
        Senator Moran. There you go. Senator Blackburn, virtually.

                        SENATOR MARSHA BLACKBURN

        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And, Ms. Devlin, I want to come to you and right along the
    same line of questioning that Senator Manchin had for you. Fort
    Campbell, of course, there in Tennessee. And as you well know,
    instead of residing in Kentucky most of those individuals live
    in Tennessee, and they want to work closer to Nashville,
    somewhere there and in middle Tennessee. And what we have seen
    and we have members of our team who have retired out from Fort
    Campbell. They are very active with that community and, just as
    you were saying, underappreciating the skill set that they have
    developed.
        Working through the technology, the mentorship I think is
    so vitally important. You talked about serving as a mentor. But
    I think what gets lost is this interagency coordination between
    DOD, DOL, VETS, VA, and then translating that to these local
    employers that would like to hire these individuals.
        So what is your plan, and what is a timeline for kind of
    bringing these pieces together and having that mentorship
    program for not only the enlisted but for their spouse so that
    they begin to make this transition together? So lay out kind of
    a timeline and how you all plan to approach that, to get your
    arms around this, because we continue to fund the program and
    we continue to hear there are stumbling blocks and unresolved
    issues.
        Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. So I will give you
    a few pieces of information. The Employment Navigator program
    at the 13 military installations, mentorship is one of the
    services provided. We actually have a partner, American
    Corporate Partners, who is one of the nine partners in the
    pilot program, and that is exactly the service that they
    provide. So we are, through this pilot, evaluating how well
    this mentorship as well as the other services such as wrap-
    around, apprenticeship, training, networking, employment
    opportunities.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So what is your timeline for
    completing the evaluation and saying this is worth the time and
    money and this is not?
        Ms. Devlin. The pilot will be completing its first year in
    March, and then we will be assessing the data to look at the
    outcomes of the program.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So we can expect some certainty
    and a way forward from you all by when?
        Ms. Devlin. Well, we will evaluate the data after March,
    and what I would say to you is within the end of fiscal year
    '22 we should have some data to report in our next
    congressional report on all of our statistics and performance.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So let us say then we are a year
    away; right?
        Ms. Devlin. Approximately a year away, yes, ma'am.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. So a year away from hearing this
    is the path forward. So then how long do you think it will take
    you to make adjustments and to reshape the existing program so
    that we have that certainty?
        Ms. Devlin. Well, I will tell you, though, that we are
    currently providing these services. So we are doing this now at
    the 13 installations. These navigators are providing one-on-one
    assistance to servicemembers and their spouses right now. So
    far, we have worked with 1,963 servicemembers and spouses. So
    it is working now.
        We are getting preliminary feedback that the participants
    are satisfied with the program, that they are receiving the
    outcomes that they are looking for. But to get the thorough
    data that would really help us analyze whether this program
    should be expanded or what our next steps would be, that is the
    data that we will not have until later.
        But our American Job Center network is America's public
    workforce system, and we are in communities around the entire
    country. And we have individuals who are trained, Disabled
    Veterans Outreach Program Specialists, Local Veterans
    Employment Representatives. These individuals are trained to
    connect servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses to
    employment opportunities in their community, and they can help
    them with their resume, with the skills, with how to translate
    their military occupational specialty skills to civilian sector
    jobs.
        So we have these systems in place now. And we do know that
    we need to do a better job of marketing them, and one of the
    things that we are working on this year is to conduct more
    effective marketing to get the information out to individuals
    who may need these services.
        Senator Blackburn. Well, my time is about to expire. But I
    hope that you all appreciate for us this is a matter of how you
    scale this up. You have got a pilot program. You say you have
    helped 1,096 so far, veterans and spouses. At Fort Campbell, we
    have 400 per month that are retiring out, and that could be a
    number of 800 if you look at veteran and staff, or I should say
    as many as a universe of 800.
        So what we are very interested in is what that
    collaboration is, how you are rolling that forward, and how you
    plan to scale this up so that it is more seamless, and as
    someone is enlisted and serving they know as they get ready to
    transition out that this program is going to be right there for
    them, they are going to roll into that as a next step, and it
    is going to help place them with their skill set in the private
    or public sector. Thank you so much.
        Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Moran.
        Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
        One last question. Mr. Burke, do you have any assessment on
    the impact on VBA if it is necessary to terminate employees at
    the VA due to them being unvaccinated, with the mandate?
        Mr. Burke. Senator, thank you for that question. That is
    certainly not something I am prepared to comment on today. I am
    fully focused on the education, employment, and Loan Guaranty.
    But I can certainly--if you are asking me for my personal
    opinion, I, quite honestly, do not have one, sir.
        Senator Moran. That is probably a safe answer, but it is
    not one that I think you or anyone else can easily dismiss. And
    I know in fact today my colleagues and I inquired of the
    Secretary in writing related to this question.
        But as we are talking about your ability to deliver
    services to veterans, both at the VA and at the Department of
    Labor, your workforce is important, too. And I think it is
    important for you to have the necessary resources to meet the
    needs of veterans and their employment and their transition. It
    would be useful for me, perhaps the Committee, to have an
    understanding of what the VA's intentions are if they are
    unable to keep their workforce in place. So perhaps you may
    highlight to the Secretary the letter in which we are inquiring
    as to this topic.
        Chairman, thank you.
        Mr. Burke. Will do, sir. And I hope your grandchild is
    doing well.
        Senator Moran. Oh, nice ending. And that allows me to say
    to Secretary Devlin, thank you for raising a good son, and I
    wish him well and safety in his service.
        Chairman Tester. Well, thank you folks on the first panel.
    I appreciate your input.
        And we are going to go to the second panel now. We are
    going to hear from veterans service organizations and school
    officials. We have got four folks we are going to hear from,
    two of them virtually, two of them in person.
        Joe Schumacher, the Director of Veteran Services at Montana
    State University--Go, Cats--Joe is here virtually.
        We have got Dr. Arthur DeGroat, Executive Director of
    Military and Veterans Affairs at Kansas State University.
        Senator Moran. Mr. Chairman, that gives me the opportunity
    to say one more time we are aligned because we also can say,
    ``Go, Cats.''
        Chairman Tester. There you go. And then we have got Patrick
    Murray--both these last two gentlemen are in person Legislative
    Director at the Veterans of Foreign Wars.
        And finally, virtually, we have Justin Monk, Policy
    Associate from the Student Veterans of America.
        We are going to start with you, Mr. Schumacher. I would
    like all of the folks testifying to limit your time to five
    minutes. Your entire written statement will be a part of the
    record. Go ahead, Joe.

                                PANEL II

                                  ----------

                      STATEMENT OF JOE SCHUMACHER

        Mr. Schumacher. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran, members
    of the Committee, I want to thank you for the invitation to
    share on the topic of the student veteran experience and the
    work being done at Montana State University.
        I am joining you from the beautiful campus at MSU in
    Bozeman, Montana, where I have the pleasure of serving as the
    Director of Veteran Services and the school certifying
    official. I am a fifth-generation Montanan, a combat veteran,
    and a product of the post-
    9/11 GI Bill and the very center I lead today.
        MSU has a proud history of serving veterans and their
    families. This past February, we were recognized as one of the
    top 10 most military-friendly universities amongst our peers.
    We are proud of that recognition, believe it speaks to the
    heart of our missions as the land grant university in our
    State. At MSU, we educate the sons and daughters of Montana,
    create access, and partner with our students to achieve
    positive outcomes in their lives and in the lives of their
    families. We are committed to doing our part for the future of
    Montana and our Nation and believe in the transformative power
    of education.
        This fall, as we remember the 20th anniversary of 9/11 and
    reflect on 20 years of serving combat veterans, we also
    recognize a few milestones at MSU. We celebrated our 10th
    anniversary of the Veteran Support Center, a space created to
    serve the surging number of post-9/11 veterans coming home, a
    space made possible in large part due to the partnership of the
    Chairman of this Committee. Next month, the day after Veterans
    Day, we will cut the ribbon on a new center, twice the size of
    our current space and named after a local Medal of Honor
    recipient, Staff Sergeant Travis Atkins.
        MSU and the State of Montana have invested in this space,
    invested in dedicated staff, and invested in the very futures
    of veterans who walk through our doors. We believe in this
    mission so much it is built into our strategic plan. We are
    grateful for the partnership of those on this Committee and the
    partnership of the Department of Veterans Affairs to serve
    those who have served.
        A shining example of this partnership and the outcomes we
    can achieve came in the spring of 2020 when our Nation was
    being hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. The virus had made its way
    to southwest Montana and while on spring break we made the
    decision to transition to a virtual environment for the
    remainder of the term. Practitioners like myself immediately
    saw very real challenges when it came to administering benefits
    based on our policies and regulations at the time, particularly
    as it related to the housing stipend, the piece of funding that
    allows veterans to pursue their educational goals while still
    fulfilling their financial responsibilities to their families.
    Through swift communication and the spirit to listen and learn,
    legislation was drafted, laws were signed, and policy was
    implemented that specifically addressed our issue so quickly
    that not a single veteran at MSU was negatively impacted by
    that transition.
        I bring this to you today as an example of the work we can
    do together when we communicate, when we listen, and when we
    learn from one another. I ask that we keep this outcome in mind
    as we face current challenges in policy implementation. As we
    navigate the implementation of new laws, such as the Isakson
    and Roe Act, I ask that we remember to listen and ask
    questions, ask questions of those on the ground and in the
    trenches. Come to Montana and be inspired by those who want to
    partner with you to be good stewards of the investments made by
    our Nation and those trading in their boots and uniforms for
    backpacks and school books.
        We see many challenges on the horizon. Campuses across the
    Nation still struggle with the effects of COVID-19, rising
    costs of living, and failing infrastructure. These are all
    issues Americans face. They can just be particularly
    challenging for veterans who are also navigating the stream
    while still fighting with the wounds and scars from their time
    in the military. Making that transition was one of the most
    difficult things I have ever done, and I would not have been
    successful if it were not for the investments made by MSU and
    the VA.
        If we can relieve some stress in certain areas of veterans'
    lives, this opens up mental and emotional energy to take on the
    day and find success. Mental health and suicide prevention are
    priorities for us at MSU. I am proud to share that any student
    veteran who reaches out for help will receive that help when
    they need it, free of charge. Mental health challenges and
    suicide continue to cripple our State. We, unfortunately, rank
    near the top every year in these categories. Just this past
    week, we lost a student utilizing the post-9/11 GI Bill to
    suicide.
        Last month, the Department of Veterans Affairs released
    their annual report on national veteran suicide prevention, and
    it showed that we have made some progress. However, we still
    lose 17 veterans a day to suicide, something that is
    preventable. Suicide cripples families, communities, and our
    Nation.
        We need to do more--more training, more resources and
    infrastructure to combat the factors we see in Montana and more
    partnership with local organizations who are doing the work on
    the ground. We have shown that together we can accomplish great
    things and achieve excellent outcomes if we listen to each
    other and work together. You have partners, and we are ready to
    get to work.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Moran, and members
    of this Committee for your time and attention. I welcome any
    questions at this time.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Schumacher appears on page
    61 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Joe, we will have questions after the
    other three get done testifying. We appreciate your statement.
        Dr. Arthur DeGroat, you are up.

                      STATEMENT OF ARTHUR DEGROAT

        Mr. DeGroat. Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, and
    members of this Committee, as a third-generation Army officer,
    I am honored for this opportunity to address you about my
    insights on the challenges of post-9/11 era veterans'
    transition to productive civilian lives after their service.
        I address you today as a combat veteran, a human science
    researcher, a practitioner of transition assistance in both
    higher education and nonprofit veterans service organizations,
    and as a personal and professional consultant. Because of my
    diverse background and immersion in this issue, I believe I
    offer you a unique and relevant perspective upon this life
    event of contemporary veterans' transition.
        While I could simply affirm some elements of success from
    my work on the frontlines of this effort, I believe that you
    deserve a more compelling insight of the larger issues of
    veteran transition. My formal written testimony offers nine
    pages of my discoveries from research and practice of the
    inherent challenges of post-9/11 era veterans, the true nature
    of this social phenomena, and examples of evidence-based
    practices that increase success. Given time limitations of this
    hearing, I wish to emphasize seven major points from my written
    testimony.
        First, I believe we are operating without a coherent
    national evidence-based strategy for veterans' transition
    assistance, which in my view explains much of our lack of
    success despite effort and commitment.
        Second, it is clear from human capital and business
    sciences that most military service today does not yield the
    tangible skills required directly for the civilian workplace,
    which is often sector-specific. This has been a documented
    trend starting in the 1950s, highlighting increasing
    specialization of modern military skills, knowledge, and
    abilities, and of little use to private industries directly.
        Thirdly, the post-9/11 era GI Bill is not serving as the
    dominant transition mechanism that current veterans need or as
    previous generations benefited from. This is more about it not
    being utilized properly than its design.
        Fourthly, our veteran unemployment statistics do not
    capture discouraged veterans who are capable workers despite
    their failure to transition successfully, indicating that the
    scale and opportunity of remediating transition assistance is
    much larger than commonly understood.
        Fifth, from my exploratory research, a successful
    transition assistance effort demands five essential factors.
    Many of these are not being addressed today, in my opinion.
        First, transitioning veterans need proper coaching to
    enable a proper mindset considering the challenges and rewards
    of transition.
        Secondly, they also need to acquire new social tools needed
    to socialize into the civilian world as an independent adult,
    many of which have not been in that world prior to their
    military service.
        Thirdly, the reality is that transition cannot be done
    alone. Mediated assistance is essential through all stages of
    this dynamic process, especially in the latter stages, meaning
    beyond their transition from the military service and to expand
    them beyond institutional connections.
        Fourthly, and perhaps most difficult for our veterans, is
    the activation of self-realization skills needed to acquire a
    new non-military personal identity that results from seeing
    their new civilian world in new ways.
        And lastly, our assistance programs need to equip our
    veterans with cross boundary skills, allowing the veteran to
    muster the mobility skills needed to negotiate their own lives
    without institutional dependence that we see today.
        In my work over the past 15 years, I have found very few
    assistance programs that meet these five imperatives.
        My sixth major point to emphasize today, and I never tend
    to find this, is that transitioning from military to civilian
    is stressful and puts veterans into the highest risk category
    of physiological and behavioral illness. I apply the
    foundational sociological tool, the Holmes and Rahe Social
    Readjustment Scale, to our veteran population, which has not
    previously been done to realize how dangerous and how risky and
    stressful that this phenomena is. Like Senator Moran mentioned,
    I do believe our veteran suicide phenomena is associated with
    transition failure.
        My seventh point is that I have found that a concierge-type
    or human-in-the-loop assisted model yields exceptional results,
    but this practice is rarely utilized where, instead, we use
    large group briefings and overreliance on giving veterans web
    based resources on their own are common methods of assistance.
        In closing, and most importantly, I believe that a holistic
    approach to preparing and mentoring veterans incorporated into
    a national strategy is essential to better serve these valuable
    citizens as they navigate the transition process into
    successful civilian lives after their service. I stand ready
    and committed to continue my work toward this end.
        Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, this concludes my
    testimony. I welcome any questions. Thank you.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. DeGroat appears on page 65
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. There will be questions, Dr. DeGroat.
    Appreciate your testimony.
        We will go with Patrick Murphy next. Patrick Murray. I am
    sorry, I made you Irish. Sorry. Maybe you are Irish.

                      STATEMENT OF PATRICK MURRAY

        Mr. Murray. Just a little bit, sir. Chairman Tester,
    Ranking Member Moran, and members of the Committee, on behalf
    of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the
    United States and its auxiliary, thank you for the opportunity
    to provide our remarks on these important topics today.
        With a looming expiration date of December 21st for student
    veteran COVID protection measures, there is an urgent need to
    extend these protections, and circumstances that require them
    still remain. If these student veterans are not able to receive
    the monthly housing allowance or work study stipends they
    counted on, they will be forced to adjust their budgets,
    potentially resulting in the inability to pursue their
    education and eventually achieve their employment goals. We
    urge Congress to quickly pass legislation that extends all
    student veteran COVID protections that are still necessary
    today.
        Gainful employment is an integral part of every veteran's
    life. VA offers a few important programs to help achieve this.
    The VR&E program has successfully helped many service-connected
    veterans pursue employment and education opportunities.
    However, the VFW remains concerned about the high caseloads the
    VR&E counselors maintain as it limits the amount of time they
    can spend with veteran clients assessing their current needs,
    goals, and what constitutes meaningful employment for each
    veteran. The VFW recommends the VA Office of Inspector General
    conduct an assessment of the VR&E program staff to determine
    the average amount of time each counselor spends working with a
    veteran, the rate of staff turnover, the length of time between
    counselor engagement, and the length of employment veterans are
    placed into through the VR&E program.
        The early success of programs like VET TEC show that an
    investment in veterans' economic outcomes is incredibly
    beneficial. The VFW asks for full funding of the VET TEC
    program, up to $125 million, to help get as many veterans
    gainfully employed in high demand jobs as quickly as possible.
        Positive employment and education outcomes can be achieved
    due to a successful transition. The VFW believes a proper and
    well-rounded transition from the military is one of the most
    important things our servicemembers need in order to ease back
    into our society with minimal hardships. To that extent, the
    VFW places great emphasis on ensuring transitioning
    servicemembers receive the best counseling and mentorship
    before they leave military service.
        The VFW's accredited service officers and our Benefits at
    Discharge Delivery, or BDD, program provide pre-discharge
    claims representation at 24 bases around the country and are
    available for transitioning servicemembers during TAP. While
    their primary role is to help servicemembers navigate their VA
    disability claims, they are also able to assist with many other
    available benefits and opportunities.
        This past year, between individual meetings and classroom
    briefings, the VFW met with over 14,000 servicemembers and
    collected 1,100 surveys from these individuals. Some of the
    data was expected considering the unprecedented changes due to
    COVID, but other numbers suggested that there is still a lot of
    improvement needed within TAP regardless of the pandemic
    situation. While there was slight improvement regarding the
    timely attendance of TAP classes, 40 percent of servicemembers
    are still not attending at least six months prior to
    separation.
        Additionally, we were very surprised to see that almost 60
    percent reported not participating in any of the three specific
    tracks that were made mandatory as part of the formal
    curriculum last year. The VFW is greatly concerned some of
    these new mandates are not being adhered to.
        Additionally, per code, each transitioning servicemember
    shall meet in person or by videoconference with a counselor
    before beginning the formal counseling to receive information
    regarding resources located in the community in which the
    member will reside after separation, retirement, or discharge.
    Our surveys and responses from our BDD representatives indicate
    these connections are not happening as described.
        In the recent Isakson-Roe Benefits Improvement Act, there
    were grants made eligible to community organizations who
    specialize in transition. TAP cannot be everything for
    everybody, but there are outside groups in specific communities
    that could provide specialized resources to transitioning
    servicemembers. If these connections to local resources are not
    being made, then these grants and opportunities will not be
    fully utilized.
        We know this Committee has done a great job focusing on
    transition, but we ask this Committee and its members to help
    focus DOD attention to ensure that proper administration of TAP
    is being done through DOD.
        Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran, this concludes my
    testimony. I am prepared to answer any questions you or the
    Committee members may have.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Murray appears on page 74 of
    the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Mr. Murray. Appreciate your
    testimony.
        Justin Monk, you are up next.

                        STATEMENT OF JUSTIN MONK

        Mr. Monk. Thank you. Chairman Tester, Ranking Member Moran,
    and members of the Committee, thank you for allowing Student
    Veterans of America to testify on improving veterans' education
    and employment opportunities after service.
        With more than 1,500 on-campus chapters, Student Veterans
    of America is committed to the empowerment of yesterday's
    warriors. Through a supportive network of chapter leaders, SVA
    works to transform the skills and experiences of student
    veterans to ensure they achieve their greatest potential.
        Before discussing the broader implication of the pandemic's
    effect on veteran education benefits, I would be remiss if I
    did not take the opportunity to encourage the Committee to
    continue proactively supporting student veterans through the
    ongoing pandemic. This Committee has been incredibly responsive
    to the needs of student veterans over the last 18 months.
        Unfortunately, as COVID continues to impact us all, that
    support is still needed, both through an extension of existing
    temporary protections and continued work around what
    protections can be made permanent for future national
    emergencies. Given that the temporary protections expire in
    December and students are already registering for next
    semester's classes, Congress must quickly alleviate any doubts
    about whether student veterans' benefits will be protected in
    the year to come.
        Over the course of the past few months, we have heard
    numerous concerns from student veterans and schools, both
    domestic and abroad, about difficulties complying with the
    recent Isakson-Roe and THRIVE Act changes. Both those establish
    numerous excellent protections for student veterans, and SVA
    continues to be grateful for the incredible work behind the
    scenes to put them into place. As is the case at times with
    large-scale efforts like these, during implementation we
    discovered that there were some unintended consequences of some
    of the most substantial provisions.
        My written testimony goes in more detail on each of these
    items. So suffice to say, in the immediate short term, we
    strongly encourage the passage of a protections package that
    includes at least the following: an extension of the current
    temporary COVID protections; a legislative solution to the
    recent Rounding Out rule changes at VA; a revision of the
    incentive compensation ban so the VA guidance matches the
    longstanding Department of Education guidance schools have
    followed for years; reasonable flexibilities regarding Section
    1018 of Isakson-Roe, which is a list of personalized
    information disclosures that schools must provide to
    prospective students; and addressing the privacy and
    information disclosure law concerns for international schools
    that prevent them from participating in Title 38.
        As we look beyond the need for an extension, the need for
    broader permanent authority for VA to proactively protect
    student veterans' benefits in national emergencies is clear. We
    recognize that further discussions are needed to better
    understand the exact scale and scope of what these protections
    would look like and the need to craft these authorities
    carefully. However, we would like to reiterate our support for
    them.
        This Committee saw firsthand the gravity of the situation
    facing tens of thousands of student veterans and their families
    as the pandemic unfolded in earnest back in March of last year.
    This year, the amount of work involved cannot be overstated,
    and it makes no sense to simply allow that work to expire
    instead of serving as a model for necessary permanent
    authorities to ensure adequate protections are available for
    the next emergency.
        Turning to the broader impacts of the pandemic, one of the
    top concerns expressed by student veterans is the inequitable
    monthly housing allowance rate distance learners receive
    compared to traditional students. While Congress, and this
    Committee in particular, responded quickly to preserve MHA
    rates for students who were attending classes in person but
    forced online, students who are enrolled solely in distance
    learning courses continued to receive an MHA rate that is half
    the national average. With everyone fully online, this
    disparity was plain for all to see. With more students learning
    online than ever before, regardless of course type, many
    student veterans see this difference as unfair or a punishment
    for their school or education choices. SVA recognizes that the
    pandemic has shown this difference to be unreasonable. Now is
    the time to begin the discussion on how best to bring parity to
    these MHA rates while keeping online educational quality in
    mind.
        On the topic of post-traditional student supports,
    childcare is one of the most frequently raised concerns by
    chapter leaders across the country. There is great need for
    childcare options on evenings and weekends when most students
    are often doing group work or studying. This makes sense
    considering the 2020 Census found 53 percent of respondents
    were parents.
        SVA is a supporter of this Committee looking for ways to
    strengthen the childcare options available to student veteran
    parents. The recent draft bill in the House would establish a
    childcare stipend that allows the flexibility to use
    nontraditional childcare options like trusted family and
    neighbors when traditional childcare is not available. This
    bill idea came directly from a VFW-SVA legislative fellow and
    SVA chapter leader, EL'ona Kearney from Evergreen State
    College. We hope this Committee will take up the bill once it
    passes through the House.
        Lastly, I would like to raise the issues of National Guard
    and Reserve benefit parity and mid-term activation protections.
    As U.S. defense plans have changed from a strategic Reserve to
    an operational Reserve, we have seen an increased operational
    tempo from members of Reserve components, especially the
    National Guard. This concern has been especially evident
    recently as we saw members of the National Guard tasked with
    responding to a steady stream of unprecedented challenges,
    including multiple natural disasters, COVID-19, and the violent
    insurrection in our Nation's capital.
        SVA has also heard from student servicemembers who face
    challenges in completing coursework or exams due to conflicts
    with short-term military training or deployments.
    Administrative issues such as withdrawal and reimbursement can
    also contribute to uncertainty for servicemembers as they
    manage concurrent military service and school obligations. SVA
    believes most institutions sincerely want to help these
    students balance their military duties with their studies, but
    students nevertheless lack a basic safety net in many
    instances.
        SVA is aware of recent efforts to bring legislative
    solutions to both of these areas and looks forward to working
    with the Committee on these issues.
        I would again like to express our appreciation for this
    Committee's commitment to act on the issues raised by student
    veterans themselves, issues that focus on how best to support
    their success on campus and beyond, like childcare and
    employment. That commitment is clearly reflected in the topics
    under consideration in today's hearing.
        Thank you again for your time, attention, and devotion to
    the cause of veterans in higher education. I look forward to
    your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Monk appears on page 82 of
    the Appendix.]

        Chairman Tester. Justin Monk, thank you for your testimony,
    and there will be questions. I will tell you, you may have
    gotten eight minutes of testimony into a five-minute
    presentation. That was pretty impressive. Good information,
    too. Thank you for that.
        I am going to start with you, Mr. Schumacher. You had
    mentioned that VBA is announcing policy changes without
    communicating important details about how to implement those
    changes to schools. So from your perspective, what improvements
    can VA and, if necessary, Congress make to ensure that school
    officials are getting the proper information and training
    required to implement any VA regulations?
        Mr. Schumacher. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman. I
    appreciated the testimony from Mr. Burke earlier in that we are
    hiring more VA workers. In my opinion and in our experience at
    the SCO level, a lot of those workers seem to be implemented at
    the front end, sort of a frontline worker. We have seen great
    improvements in customer service when you call the SCO hotline
    and lots of help being offered at that level.
        The area that I think we need to see improvement is sort of
    the noncommissioned officer, if you will, to sort of borrow
    from the military. We have communication coming down from our
    officers, being VBA, the Federal level of VA, and a lot of
    activity down on the ground, your enlisted folks.
        There seems to be a level of management and leadership
    missing sort of in the middle, and these are at the level of
    our ELRs. And for the State of Montana, our ELR is located out
    of Denver, and he oversees the States of Wyoming and Montana.
    He has a lot on his plate, and I think he needs help. And these
    are individuals who help take policy and communicate to the
    SCOs at the school level to help us stay in compliance with the
    VA and ultimately serve our student veterans better.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you for that. Yes, I think I am
    going to ask this question actually. Look, Montana is still
    struggling from COVID. It continues to be a major problem. And
    I know Montana schools are doing everything they can to support
    their students. Can you talk about what MSU is doing to support
    student veterans who tend to be a little older than the average
    college student and may have family to support?
        Mr. Schumacher. Absolutely. Thank you for the question, Mr.
    Chairman. Here at Montana State, like I said, we pride
    ourselves on serving those who have served. We go above and
    beyond simply just certifying the various chapters of the post
    9/11 GI Bill. I think ensuring the timely and accurate
    certification of those benefits is so important. Every
    student's first question when they come to campus is: How am I
    going to pay for my time here? And it only becomes more complex
    when you have a family and other greater financial
    responsibilities than maybe your 18-year-old counterpart
    student.
        So here at Montana State, we not only have that dedicated
    space for veterans to come together and have community, but
    they can also interact with dedicated staff like myself, free
    tutoring. Mental health counseling is huge, as I mentioned,
    something that we focus on. Mentors and advisors, so just
    somebody to sort of grab a hold of them and show them how to do
    this thing we call college. Yes, this is something I am very
    proud of here at MSU now.
        I know you are aware of the challenges we face here in
    southwest Montana, in Bozeman in particular. The high cost of
    living, the housing unaffordability and just the lack of
    housing options, childcare options, as was mentioned by my SVA
    counterpart, are all issues. And so when you have to choose
    between taking care of your children, making money for your
    family, or pursuing your degree, your family and your children
    are going to come first. And that means that your education you
    may have to drop classes or something like that. And so MSU is
    doing everything we can to make it so they do not have to make
    those difficult decisions.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you for that.
        Dr. DeGroat, quickly, Ph.D. or M.D.?
        Mr. DeGroat. Ed.D., Doctor of Education, Military Adult
    Development [off microphone] transition.
        Chairman Tester. Very good. Some of your testimony was
    enlightening and disturbing at the same time. And I will tell
    you that I think everybody on this Committee, everybody that
    has paid attention, has probably asked themselves many, many
    times what can we do to drop the suicide. We are losing nearly
    one an hour, and one a day would be too many. Okay?
        So the question--and you said it. You said the transition
    from military to civilian can be very, very stressful. And I
    think if you take a look at the folks, if they were never
    deployed, they are committing suicide at the same rate as folks
    who were in theater. So there is something going on, and I
    think you may have put your finger on it.
        So the question is I think when people are having change
    inflicted in their life--and this is the only thing they have
    known in their life since they have been an adult in many, many
    cases. What is the best way to approach that? I know you talked
    about having people there and not websites and not talking in
    big groups but getting folks down in small ones. What is the
    most important thing that we can be doing to make this
    transition a little less stressful?
        Mr. DeGroat. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it kind of goes
    back when I did my research initially. When we transitioned as
    a Nation from selective service and draft to the all-volunteer
    force that has well served us today, we, as a country,
    commissioned some of the best social science's relevant human
    resource, and we build a great system. There was very little to
    no studies I have ever found where we really studied anything
    other than separation. So this phenomena of transition is
    really something new in its current definition that previous
    generations did not have to face.
        So I think we are facing a new phenomena where we think we
    have done this after each war, and we have applied a lot of the
    same mechanisms that worked for previous generations, expecting
    it would work for this generation of post-9/11 era veterans. So
    there really is a lack of understanding about the nature of the
    transition experience today because it is not simply just going
    to war, coming home, and going back to the farm or going back
    to the factory. It is really a bold move. It is not just
    occupational; it is entirely life change.
        The Holmes and Rahe Social Readjustment Scale that I
    discovered lists the 43 most stressful events an adult goes
    through in their life, and it rank-orders them from 1 to 43.
    Interestingly, veterans' transition or transition from the
    military is not considered one, but it should. So I took all of
    the cases of the veterans that I individually studied on their
    life experience of transition, and almost every one had about 8
    or 9 of those 43 issues happening at the same time. And that
    was--and if you add up the stress level scores, it puts them
    over the top.
        Then I tried to figure out, you know, what is a comparative
    experience to veterans' transition, and the nearest thing you
    can find in psychological research is marital divorce. And you
    think about how unhealthy that is for all parties involved.
        So I think it starts with not really understanding that we
    are facing a very unique phenomena. This is the first
    generation of veterans who went to war as digital natives. They
    were co-present on the home front and the battle front because
    of social media. The kind of demand on their roles in combat
    while also being leaders in their homes at the same time. The
    iteration, going to combat five, six times, not going once
    until it ends.
        And then the last part I would say that is fundamentally
    different with this generation is about 80 percent of the
    previous generation of veterans were absorbed in the allied
    military career field. We had a very robust industrial base.
    The military talent and experience and the culture translated
    directly into work in defense industry or consultants or
    contractors, and those--because of outsourcing, just-in-time
    logistics, and commercial off-the-shelf acquisition, we have
    lost that industry to hire our veterans. This is the first
    generation of veterans that have to actually compete with
    people already in the workforce, and they have been absent from
    the workforce.
        So there is no silver bullet. It is just more complicated,
    Mr. Chairman, than people really take a look at it, and we use
    precedents that do not fit.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you. Thank you for that.
        Senator Moran.
        Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you.
        Let me begin first with Mr. Monk. In your testimony, you
    mentioned the student veterans associations' call for a
    National Guard and Reservist GI Bill parity. As you know, I
    introduced a bill to do that. I was joined by Chairman Tester.
    Would you explain for the record why there is a need for that
    parity between the National Guard and Reserve components and
    the Active Duty components? Tell us why that matters,
    particularly as it relates to the topic that we are talking
    about, training and education and transition.
        Mr. Monk. Absolutely. And thank you for the question,
    Senator. It is important because the activation orders under
    which our National Guardsmen and Reservists are activated under
    carry with it different benefit accrual structures. So if you
    were activated under one set of orders, you may receive full
    benefits just as you would if you were under Active Duty
    orders, or if you are activated under other orders, then you
    might not receive any at all. If the duration of your
    activation, for example, is under 30 days, you will be eligible
    for a different kind of benefit accrual than for orders lasting
    longer than that.
        And it is important because, as I noted in the verbal and
    written testimony, we have seen an increasing change in the
    type of orders that our Reserve components are expected to
    perform. And so the jobs and tasks are becoming more and more
    dangerous relative to their historical norms, and they are much
    closer in reality to what their Active Duty counterparts are
    also performing.
        There is a popular example of the camera operator down at
    the southern border a couple years ago that the National
    Guardsmen and the Active Duty folks were trading off during the
    day and nighttime, doing the same exact job, but the National
    Guardsmen were unable to--or were not accruing any sort of
    Federal education benefit.
        So it is important to make sure that if we are asking these
    servicemembers to do the same job and endure the same risks
    that they receive the same benefits and considerations. And so
    we think that, you know, a single day in uniform should be the
    same across any sort of activation order or service type.
        Senator Moran. Thank you for your answer, and thank you for
    your support of those individuals that are in that circumstance
    to solve their problem or solve a problem.
        Dr. DeGroat, welcome to the Nation's capital. Welcome to
    the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee. And thank you for your
    constant, persistent, educated endeavors to try to take care of
    veterans at Kansas State University and our community, across
    the State and really across the Nation. Thank you for your own
    service to the country. I hold you in high regard as I hold all
    veterans. I also hold maybe just a slightly higher regard for
    those veterans who work on behalf of their fellow veterans, and
    you exemplify that. And Dr. DeGroat is highly regarded really
    across Kansas but certainly in our home community of Manhattan.
        Doctor, you have led so many innovative programs and
    changes at K-State to assist student veterans and transitioning
    servicemembers. Maybe you could help me, help us, if you would
    discuss maybe the lessons learned, a couple, two or three
    lessons learned at Kansas State University that could be and
    should be implemented nationwide.
        Mr. DeGroat. Well, thank you very much, Senator. I think
    philosophically--and I got to start the Office of Military and
    Veterans Affairs in 2006, where our land grant university did
    not have--it had a mission of serving the military and
    veterans, but it did not necessary have an office or a full-
    time employee kind of directing it.
        So, philosophically, we decided to build a military
    inclusive environment. That means that the veteran students,
    military and veteran students are not on a pedestal. They are
    well served by just being--filling in and moving in with the
    mosaic of all other students. First-generation students.
    Students off the farm. International students. And so we did
    not elevate hierarchically the role of veterans. It was
    revered. They have special benefits.
        But building a community--an institution where they are
    respected but they are equal to all other people, I think that
    developmentally prepared them to go out into the workplace and
    into the world after university, to use that period of time in
    their baccalaureate experience or graduate school experience to
    transition from institutional life in the military to more of
    an independent institutional life, not just while getting their
    skills but also how to live and conduct themselves as students.
        And we encourage our veteran students to get involved in
    other things, the Greek communities and professional societies,
    and get involved in the arts and athletics and recreation and
    things. So they are not just typical veterans. A lot of
    veterans just go to class and go back to their apartments. They
    do not really matriculate into the whole hidden curriculum of a
    college experience.
        So I think, philosophically, we have succeeded in several
    decades of really broadening the experience of our veteran
    students from simply seeking a credential that they want for
    future employment. I think that has helped a great deal.
        I used to say to our veteran student center people that it
    is great to see all of our freshmen veteran students in our
    veteran center. If they are there the day before graduation,
    maybe they have not really embraced the new identities and the
    new roles. And I would hope that they are over in the lounge
    with the engineering students if they are engineers or over
    with architecture if they are architecture students. It is not
    to diminish their veteran status, but sometimes their veteran
    status is preventing them from moving forward and re-
    identifying as a K-Stater or a Montana State Bobcat or an
    accountant and then moving forward into those roles.
        It is based on the principle you have got to let something
    go in order to adopt something new. So I think that is,
    philosophically, how we have approached it and not centralized
    things and just allowed all of our university colleges and
    departments and units all embrace this philosophy of they are
    just another student and let's prepare them like we prepare all
    other students. And that seems to work better than focusing on
    their unique needs and catering to those at the expense of more
    generalizing and blending them into the common experience.
        Senator Moran. Art, thank you very much. I missed a
    sentence of your testimony because the Chairman was whispering
    in my ear that, he is something. What was the word?
        Chairman Tester. White-hot smart.
        Senator Moran. White-hot smart. I guess I agree. But I
    would conclude just again thanking you for what you do and your
    presence here. But to describe the efforts at Kansas State
    University, the Committee ought to know that Manhattan, Kansas,
    the home of K-State, is adjacent to Fort Riley, where we have
    15,000 active duty soldiers. There is about 18,000 family
    members, 29,000 veterans and retirees.
        So it is a significant component of our community, and for
    Kansas State to take such an active role in this issue has a
    real consequence.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Boozman.
        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Monk, in your testimony, you talked about how the
    pandemic accelerated tele-learning. And in that regard, with
    the online instruction, when it comes to veterans' education,
    can you talk a little bit about how they are successfully
    transitioning, why it is important to reach the areas that not
    getting reached, the underserved areas? And then also, what is
    your impression of the quality of education that they are
    getting with the tele-learning?
        And then it is interesting, Dr. DeGroat. You know, I
    appreciated the discussion on suicide. This is something that
    Senator Moran and I have sat next to each other, literally for
    the last 20 years, discussing.
        And again, is that playing any part, Mr. Monk, do you feel?
        I know that I was in college during the Vietnam years as
    veterans were coming back, and they lent so much to actually
    being in the classroom. You know. And again, having them there,
    getting to know them, and this and that. Can you talk a little
    bit about those things?
        And then also, we really do appreciate your work on Student
    Veterans of America.
        Mr. Monk. Thank you for the compliment, Senator, and
    certainly for the questions. I will do my best to cover
    everything you asked, and if I miss anything, please let me
    know.
        To the first point about reaching underserved folks, it is
    critically important to meet student veterans wherever they are
    and wherever they need to be met. So if that entails making
    sure that they have the proper access and, you know, connection
    to, say, reliable broadband internet to access the online
    education program that they would like to pursue, then that
    means helping them with that. If that means ensuring that they
    have adequate MHA to meet their financial needs and obligations
    in rural communities, it means that. It really just at its core
    means meeting the student veteran wherever they need to be met
    and providing them with the highest quality service that we can
    provide them and, you know, delivering their earned education
    benefits.
        To the next one about quality of online education, we think
    it has certainly improved over the last decade-plus. I mean, we
    cannot underscore enough the quality of online education and
    how it has improved leaps and bounds.
        With that said, I do want to temper expectations a little
    bit because I certainly agree with your later comment that
    being on campus and in person is valuable unto itself, even
    outside of the classroom. Just taking part and being part of a
    campus body and interacting with people from different
    backgrounds and experiences, that certainly has a tremendous
    amount of value on its own.
        Part of the decision that veterans have to make when they
    decide which program of education to pursue or which style of
    education to pursue is do the benefits of being on campus and
    the networking opportunities and things of that nature outweigh
    the benefits of online education's convenience because it comes
    directly to your home. The typically faster speed of these
    courses. Many of these programs offer faster degree programs
    and shorter turnaround, which is valuable in many cases to a
    student veteran. So however it works for them and however they
    make that decision, we have to meet them where they need to be.
        And I apologize. Now I have talked too long. There was
    another question you asked. I would like to answer it if you
    can please repeat it for me.
        Senator Boozman. No, no. That is fine. I think you actually
    covered it all. Either that or we both forgot it, which is
    quite possible.
        Mr. DeGroat. Senator, I could touch on the suicide comment.
    And I worked on the Governor's Challenge for Veteran Suicide
    when the VA released the National Strategy for the Prevention
    of Veteran Suicide. And they offered every State in the union,
    and I was one of six or seven States. Kansas.
        Sir, I learned a lot more about the suicide phenomena than
    I had previously known. And I think where it applies to
    transitioning veterans, particularly those that have not seen
    combat and you cannot explain it as unmediated combat trauma
    that still lingers, it is a combination that the veteran has
    kind of a two-pronged isolation element.
        When I interview a lot of the veterans I am studying or
    helping transition, I ask them how many Facebook likes or all
    their different friends in their social media, and 99 percent
    of them, on their devices, their social connections that they
    identify with are all military. About 10 days after they leave
    the military, those names are irrelevant. So their first level
    isolation is leaving their tribe that has been so important and
    so deep bonds. And without the ability of forming new social
    bonds or being at a workplace or in college or someplace, they
    become alone in the crowd.
        And then their second level of isolation, which I think is
    really the terminal case, is now they are out in the world, and
    they just feel like their life is not worth living. There is no
    one. There is no one that they can talk to. There is no one
    that cares if they live or die. And they make the conclusion
    that they are just alone in the world. This is why animal-based
    therapies have been successful because at least an animal gives
    them another living thing, a reason to wake up every day and
    take care of something else.
        So I think this generation has some different needs and
    different causes to these problems, but it is so devastating
    that we just cannot solve this or get it better. In fact, it is
    worse, 15 percent more this year on active duty than last.
    Despite all we have known and all we are doing and the changes
    we are making, it is still--it is a pervasive challenge that we
    have really got to get our hands on. And I am continuing to
    work it as best I can.
        Senator Boozman. Good. Well, thank you very much.
        Can I ask one more thing, Mr. Chair? And again, thank you
    so much. That is really very helpful.
        Mr. Murray, we appreciate you guys, appreciate all of you
    all's work in so many different ways. Another subject that we
    have talked about, sitting over on the House Veterans' Affairs
    Committee, Jerry and I, and then now we have got a new partner
    over here, is TAP. And you know, it has just been a problem. It
    is so much better than it used to be.
        But I am curious. You mentioned, you know, the statistics
    in regard to people not participating. And initially, you know,
    this was something that was not mandatory. It was, you know, if
    they made time. And back during those days, you know, 9/11 had
    happened and this and that. The tempo was very--so it was
    really difficult for commanders to actually make it such that
    they really--they really had a good reason sometimes that they
    could not afford, you know, for these folks to be off.
        What are you seeing? What is the reason that you are--is
    there a reason that you are finding that we simply are not
    getting this done even today?
        Mr. Murray. Senator, you are right, and I do understand the
    readiness answer.
        Senator Boozman. Sure. Which again was much more
    understandable, I think, then than now.
        Mr. Murray. But what I would say is that that seems to be
    the kind of fallback answer all the time.
        Senator Boozman. Right.
        Mr. Murray. We cannot always blame readiness for not doing
    other things. If truly they do not have the time and resources,
    the people available to send a transitioning sergeant to TAP,
    then that is maybe a larger problem.
        Senator Boozman. Right.
        Mr. Murray. If there is only a single soldier or airmen
    capable. But I mean, it is culture, and we are not going to
    legislate culture, but we need to continue to kind of grow that
    into existence.
        What I would suggest is making sure that the programs that
    are in place, the changes that have been made, are adhered to.
    The TAP cannot be--it is designed to be uniform. It is designed
    to be spread across every single base for every single
    servicemember, but there are plenty of resources in the
    community that might fit those tailored needs of each man and
    woman separating. Connecting them to those local resources,
    whether it be in New York City, California, Texas, that is
    looking for specific jobs, specific industries, that is where
    we are going to really help improve some of these outcomes. Get
    them into the schools, get them into the employment programs,
    the support groups, whether there are veteran groups in that
    community, that is what we really want to focus on.
        And that is a DOD thing. TAP is a DOD program.
        Senator Boozman. Right.
        Mr. Murray. They partner with VA and DOL, and they do a
    great partnership, but it is DOD that needs to make sure that
    they are starting from the get-go.
        Senator Boozman. No. I appreciate that fact. And yet, you
    know, many of us are intertwined in that space, so we can put
    pressure in that regard. But appreciate you and certainly
    appreciate the VFW.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Yes, thank you, Senator Boozman.
        I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I
    think that we came in here talking about, you know, high
    quality education leading to employment, and I think it is
    really, really important that we continue to keep our foot on
    the gas.
        I would also just say kind of a little bit off-script here
    is that the issue with mental health in this country, in the
    military, is particularly disturbing, but the truth is it is
    everywhere in our society. And I have always said if we can
    unlock what is going on in the veterans' minds with the
    transition and after they become civilians and even while they
    are in the military we may be able to transfer that information
    we know to the private sector so everybody can win.
        And I really hope that the VA and mental health groups out
    there really utilize you, Dr. DeGroat. I think that you have a
    lot to offer to this conversation that most people do not talk
    about. So I want to thank you for that.
        And look, there is nothing more important in our country
    than keeping everyone safe and healthy and housed and employed,
    and hopefully, this hearing went a step toward accomplishing
    that goal.
        With that, we will keep the record open for a week, and
    this hearing is adjourned.
       [Whereupon, at 5:09 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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