[Senate Hearing 117-371]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-371
EXAMINING THE FINDINGS AND
RECOMMENDATIONS OF GAO'S 2022 REPORT ON
DUPLICATION, OVERLAP, FRAGMENTATION AND
OPPORTUNITIES TO ACHIEVE FINANCIAL BENEFITS
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING OVERSIGHT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JUNE 14, 2022
__________
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
48-492 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona RAND PAUL, Kentucky
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
ALEX PADILLA, California MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia RICK SCOTT, Florida
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
Zachary I. Schram, Chief Counsel
Pamela Thiessen, Minority Staff Director
Andrew Dockham, Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Staff Director
Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
Thomas J. Spino, Hearing Clerk
SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING OVERSIGHT
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire, Chairman
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona RAND PAUL, Kentucky
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia RICK SCOTT, Florida
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
Jason Yanussi, Staff Director
Allison Tinsey, Counsel for Governmental Affairs
Adam Salmon, Minority Staff Director
Agnes Germiller, Minority Research Assistant
Kate Kielceski, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Hassan............................................... 1
Senator Johnson.............................................. 6
Senator Lankford............................................. 8
Senator Ossoff............................................... 11
Prepared statements:
Senator Hassan............................................... 17
Senator Paul................................................. 18
WITNESSES
Tuesday, June 14, 2022
Hon. Eugene L Dodaro, Comptroller General of the United States,
U.S. Government Accountability Office..........................
Testimony.................................................... 2
Prepared statement........................................... 20
APPENDIX
GAO Report....................................................... 32
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
Mr. Dodaro................................................... 166
EXAMINING THE FINDINGS AND
RECOMMENDATION'S OF GAO'S 2022
REPORT ON DUPLICATION, OVERLAP,.
FRAGMENTATION, AND OPPORTUNITIES TO ACHIEVE FINANCIAL BENEFITS
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TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2022
U.S. Senate,
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and
Spending Oversight,
of the Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m. in
room 342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Maggie Hassan,
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Senators Hassan, Ossoff, Scott, Hawley, Johnson,
and Lankford.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN\1\
Senator Hassan. Good afternoon. Subcommittee on Emerging
Threats and Spending Oversight (ETSO) will come to order. The
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight
organized today's hearing to discuss the Government
Accountability Office's (GAOs) 2022 Annual Report on
Duplication, Fragmentation, and Overlap in Federal Programs so
that we may identify opportunities to save taxpayer dollars and
improve services by increasing government efficiency.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Senator Hassan appears in the
Appendix on page 17.
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Government Accountability Office Comptroller General Gene
Dodaro joins us today. We are also joined by several GAO
subject matter experts who contributed to this year's report.
Their testimony will provide the Subcommittee with greater
understanding of the challenges agencies face as well as the
recommendations that GAO has for addressing those challenges.
Twelve years ago, Congress tasked GAO with producing an
annual report on Federal programs that have duplicative goals,
and that, as a result, may lead to wasteful spending. Since the
first report was published in 2011, this annual report has led
to $531 billion in cost savings and other financial benefits.
GAO estimates that at least another $21 billion in financial
benefits could be achieved if agencies and Congress follow the
GAO recommendations laid out in the report.
Congress and Executive agencies actions to address the
nearly 1,300 recommendations made in these annual reports have
not only saved taxpayer dollars but also have improved agency
performance and resource management and led to better delivery
of services to the American people.
I remain firmly committed to ensuring that Congress does
its part to eliminate duplication, overlap, and fragmentation
to achieve cost savings for taxpayers and improve program
outcomes.
I was proud to once again partner with Ranking Member Paul
last year to reintroduce the bipartisan Acting On the Annual
Duplication Report Act, which directly responds to GAO's
recommendations for congressional action called for in the
2019, 2020, and 2021 Annual Duplication Reports, and I will
continue to work with my congressional colleagues to pass these
common-sense proposals.
Once again, I want to thank you, Mr. Dodaro, and to your
team for testifying today, and for the ongoing work that you
and your team does. I look forward to today's discussion on how
Congress and Federal agencies can work to be better stewards of
taxpayer dollars.
As you know it is the practice of the Homeland Security and
Government Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witnesses, so
Mr. Dodaro, if you will please stand and raise your right hand.
Do you swear that the testimony you give before this
Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Dodaro. I do.
Senator Hassan. Thank you. Please be seated.
The Subcommittee is once again joined by Comptroller
General Gene Dodaro. Mr. Dodaro's career at GAO began more than
45 years ago, and he has spent the last 11 years leading the
agency. In this position, he oversees the work that leads to
the hundreds of reports, testimonies, and recommendations that
GAO issues each year.
He is widely considered one of the government's foremost
experts on government administration, efficiency, and
effectiveness, and he has testified before this Committee and
Congress countless times.
Mr. Dodaro today is assisted by GAO analysts who assisted
with compiling this year's report.
Welcome, Mr. Dodaro. You are recognized for your opening
statement.
TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE EUGENE L. DODARO,\1\ COMPTROLLER
GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY
OFFICE
Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much Chair Hassan. Good
afternoon to you. Senator Johnson. I am very pleased to be here
today to discuss our 12th annual report on ways to enhance
government efficiency and effectiveness. As was mentioned in
your opening statement, Madam Chair, the annual reports that we
have issued, had about 1,300 recommendations. Congress and the
Administration have either fully or partially implemented 74
percent of those recommendations, which has led to the cited
savings that you pointed out. This includes $531 billion that
has already been saved and another $21 billion that will be
saved in the coming years.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Dodaro appears in the Appendix on
page 20.
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Now we think there are tens of billions of additional
dollars that could be saved in implementing the recommendations
that were either partially or not at all addressed in our
previous 11 reports. This year we have 94 new actions that we
identified that could also lead to additional savings and
improvements in government efficiency and effectiveness.
Again, this year, as our prior 11 reports have done, we
cover the spectrum of the Federal Government's activities. For
example, the Department of Energy could pursue less expensive
options for disposing of low-activity hazardous and nuclear
waste, thereby saving tens of billions of dollars, potentially.
We also found that Federal contracting leaders could employ
the use of metrics that we found that a cross-section of
private sector entities use to drive down costs and improve the
performance of their procurement operations. This would give
additional billions of dollars in savings.
Also, the government could encourage better staffing at
skilled nursing facilities. This would prevent very costly
hospital readmissions or emergency room visits within 30 days
of somebody entering a skilled nursing facility, where the
government pays extra on top of the daily rate to that
facility.
There are opportunities for the Internal Revenue Service
(IRS) to focus more attention on eliminating what has been a
growing amount of interest paid on tax refunds, for various
reasons. Also, there are opportunities to reduce overpayments
in the Ticket to Work program at the Social Security
Administration (SSA) for disability benefits. This is a program
that is set up to help people get back to work, but if SSA does
not make timely reductions to disability benefit payments to
reflect higher wages earned, they are overpaying the
participants.
There are also opportunities at the Defense Department
(DOD) to reduce costs for feeding the military through food
services, travel reimbursements by putting changes in place.
Millions of dollars could be saved there as well.
We also have called on Congress to designate a Federal
agency to be the lead and develop a national strategy for diet-
related chronic health conditions. Currently, there are over
200 Federal efforts at 21 Federal agencies. There is not a
coordinated national strategy. This has a lot of consequences,
both for the health of the American people, the longevity of
people, as well as additional costs borne by our already
burdened health care system. We think this would be a good
recommendation to implement as well.
I thank you very much for the opportunity to be here today
and to discuss our work. I appreciate very much, Senator
Hassan, your and Senator Paul's introduction of legislation to
support our recommendations. I very much thank you for that
effort and look forward to continuing to work with this
Committee. I have testified on these issues before, before
Senator Johnson as well, and I appreciate the Congress',
particularly this Committee's continued interest.
Thank you very much.
Senator Hassan. Thank you very much, Mr. Dodaro. I am going
to start with a round of questions and then it looks like the
next person up will be Senator Johnson.
Mr. Dodaro, to date, GAO has made 121 recommendations on
actions that Congress could take to address the wasteful
spending and inefficient operations listed in the Annual
Duplication Report. There are currently 59 open
recommendations.
How should Congress prioritize which recommendations to
address? Are there particular recommendations that you think we
should focus on first?
Mr. Dodaro. I absolutely think those recommendations that
have significant dollar savings potential should be among the
top priorities. I issued a report last month, in which I have
repeatedly warned Congress that the Federal Government is on an
unsustainable--long-term fiscal path. The more actions Congress
could take to reduce Federal spending the more that situation
will help be resolved over time.
There are also very important sets of recommendations that
go to improving public health and safety. I would also give
those high priority as well. The recommendations we have made,
for example, in this year's report, about addressing
approximately 50 million gallons of radioactive and hazardous
waste that we have not yet treated or disposed of, and the
costs are increasing every year. I mentioned the health care
recommendations we have. The recommendations we have on
biodefense strategies this year are very important, as well as
the recommendations on the pandemic.
My view, Senator, would be addressing recommendations where
cost savings could be achieved and where there is a direct
impact on public health and safety, those should be the top
priorities.
Senator Hassan. Thank you. There are eight new
recommendations across five issue areas for Congress in this
year's report. One involves allowing the Department of Energy
to run a pilot program to examine alternative ways to dispose
of nuclear waste. Why is congressional action needed here? How
would congressional action on this particular issue prevent
further wasteful spending and inefficiencies?
Mr. Dodaro. This deals with one of the biggest nuclear
waste sites in Hanford, Washington. The government and the
State of Washington have already agreed on how to dispose of
the high-level waste and a portion of the low-activity waste,
which they are going to vitrify, which means to immobilize it
in glass. But there is 40 percent of the low-activity waste,
called supplemental low-activity waste, that has not yet been
decided how to treat and dispose of.
The Department of Energy right now, with our encouragement,
is testing using a grouting process, which would be far less
expensive than the vitrification approach. Then that waste
would be transported to a location in Texas that is already
licensed, outside of the State of Washington.
There are still some disputes between Energy and the State
of Washington. Those disputes could potentially take this pilot
test into litigation that would slow it down for years, and we
are concerned as this is only dealing with a couple thousand
gallons of waste. Congress, by clarifying that this is an
approved project, would give Energy the option to go forward
with this project to demonstrate the feasibility of grouting
this waste.
If they could use grouting instead of vitrification, they
would be able to do this a lot faster and a lot less costly,
thereby both saving money and protecting public health and
safety.
Senator Hassan. Thank you. This year's Duplication Report
also notes that 200 Federal programs across 21 agencies exist
to combat diet-related chronic health conditions. GAO
recommends that Congress assign a single Federal entity to
coordinate these programs and develop a national strategy to
reduce inconsistencies in policies and better manage resources
for helping Americans struggling with these conditions.
200 overlapping programs do not pop up overnight. Different
perspectives and programs may be helpful in some cases, but it
is hard to believe that having that many programs is the best
approach to addressing these issues. How did we get to this
point? How can Congress or agencies prevent this kind of
situation going forward?
Mr. Dodaro. This situation was similar to what we have
reported on in our prior reports. For example, we found over
150 science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM)
programs across many different agencies, a lot of education and
training programs. They develop incrementally over time.
Programs are never looked at to make sure they are working
effectively. If there is a perceived need, there is always the
creation of a new program, rather than making the current
program work effectively. It has that similar pattern to it
that we have seen in the past.
Now Congress took action. Congress reduced the STEM
education programs. I think something similar here could be
done. But we need a strategy and input from the agencies.
Legislation that you have introduced and Senator Paul have
introduced requires the agencies to focus more on identifying
overlap and duplication programs. There is really not a process
in the Executive Branch to do what we are doing at GAO, and it
should be done.
Now a complicating factor here, as Senator Lankford knows,
is that there is not a ready inventory of Federal programs yet,
for people to look across the government and identify these
programs. We spent an incredible amount of time and effort to
dig this information out across the government. There are
efforts being made to develop such an inventory, but your
legislative proposals would require each agency, using the
Office of Management and Budget (OMBs) guidance, to identify
these overlapping programs.
OMB really has the proper perspective, looking across
government, to help deal with this issue across agencies.
Senator Paul has a legislative proposal that would require GAO
to look at new programs to see if the work that we have already
done would indicate that those programs may be duplicative of
existing programs.
Senator Hassan. Thank you for that. I have introduced a
bill with Senator Braun that would require agencies to identify
duplicative or unnecessary programs and work with Congress to
eliminate them. I take it from your comments just now you think
that OMB might be the right kind of point of nexus. For
instance, for these 21 agencies who are operating the programs
that you highlight, the 200 programs, to combat diet-related
chronic disease, OMB might be a good convener of a process.
Mr. Dodaro. It has to be OMB, because the agencies have
limited visibility on what is going on across the government
without the program inventory. They also have parochial
interests to protect, and so there needs to be a neutral
arbiter to help identify and eliminate some of these programs.
OMB could play that role, but quite frankly, it does not
really have the bandwidth or the resources necessary to deal
with all these issues. Designating a lead agency to do this,
with support and oversight from OMB, would be the way to go, in
my opinion.
Senator Hassan. OK. Thank you very much. Senator Johnson,
you are recognized.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON
Senator Johnson. Gene, welcome back. Another good piece of
work here.
This really does show that a really well-crafted
amendment--this was done before I came here, but Senator
Lankford's predecessor, Dr. Coburn, passed this, requiring this
duplication report, and it has saved the taxpayers over $500
billion. It is a real tribute to him and you for implementing
this well.
I think we should be honest. Why do we have so much
duplication? It is because Congress passes way too many laws,
and we do not exercise enough care. You can have this listing
of different programs, and that would obviously be helpful, but
there ought to be some type of birdbath that before you
actually pass a piece of legislation and bring it to the floor
of the Senate it has to be compared against what already exists
and whether it is going to be duplicative. It is far easier to
do it on the front end than trying to do it on the back end.
But let's talk about what you have done addressing this on
the back end. It is interesting that you have said 74 percent
of what you have highlighted over these 11--is it 12 years now,
11 years?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
Senator Johnson [continuing]. Have been implemented fully
or partially. What I want to do is, of the $500 billion-plus,
give us the best examples. How has it been implemented? I
appreciate the fact that we are passing legislation. That is
what we always try to do is make recommendations, come up with
a piece of legislation, but that does not always pass. I mean,
how are the different ways? We are almost fighting a guerilla
war here, trying to pare back government. What has been the
most effective ways, and the number of different ways you have
seen your recommendations actually being implemented?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The biggest dollar savings have come from
Congress taking action or not taking action. We found
duplication between the renewable fuel standard and the ethanol
tax credit, and Congress let the ethanol tax credit expire,
which saved over $29 billion.
There was a program that was supposed to be a temporary
program--and some of these things start out as temporary
programs--for direct payments to farmers, that duplicated a lot
of other farm programs. Congress let that program expire--and
that was maybe $40 billion in cost savings.
Senator Johnson. Having every piece of legislation have a
sunset clause is kind of a good mechanism for----
Mr. Dodaro. You need a triggering event.
Senator Johnson [continuing]. Eliminating future
duplication.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. You need a triggering event, and you need
to change the incentives. Right now it is incumbent on people
like me or others to try to stop a program activity as opposed
to the program having to prove they have been effective; they
should have empirical evidence to show they are effective--and
that they are deserving of additional funding.
If you had a sunset provision coupled with the burden on
the agencies to show that the programs are really effective,
then you have a window of opportunity to revisit these programs
on a regular, recurring basis. I think that would be helpful.
Senator Johnson. It is interesting that the first thing you
mentioned that has been most effective is for Congress not to
act. I think that is interesting. Where Congress has acted, or
where an agency has acted, give me some good examples of how
action actually resulted in reduction in duplication.
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. For example, this is an agency action in
the Medicaid program that the Department of Health and Human
Services (HHS), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS),
is allowed to approve demonstrations, but the demonstrations
are supposed to be budget neutral. We found that the
demonstrations were not budget neutral, and so it was costing
more money--and it was not proving to improve program delivery
in the Medicaid services. We encouraged the department, and
they have done it, as these demonstrations have come up for
renewal not to allow them to carry over money from year to
year. That saved probably in the neighborhood of $150 billion
right there.
Also we recommended that the DOD use best practices for
weapons systems development, like having sound business cases
up front--including requiring programs to have technologies
matured before program start. That has slowed down the cost
growth in the weapons systems area by well over $200 billion
since 2006.
Those are a couple of the big ones that we have identified.
Senator Johnson. Those are agencies acting.
Mr. Dodaro. Right.
Senator Johnson. Has Congress actually done something good?
I mean, have we been able to pass legislation, either through
appropriation bills? I am trying to figure out, what has been
affected when we actually acted?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. For example, we identified ones where the
military services were all developing different combat
uniforms, as opposed to having a uniform set. Congress acted
and required the agencies to implement an approach to
developing the new uniforms that would be consistent across
DOD.
Senator Johnson. Would that be through NDAA then?
Mr. Dodaro. Pardon me?
Senator Johnson. Was that through the NDAA?
Mr. Dodaro. I believe it was either through NDAA or through
the appropriations. I am not sure.
Senator Johnson. OK.
Mr. Dodaro. One of the two.
Senator Johnson. That is fine.
Mr. Dodaro. Then Congress passed a weapons systems
acquisition reform in 2009, that implemented a lot of our
recommendations. Those have been implemented as well. Congress
has passed a lot of legislative changes that have improved
things. They reinforced, in the information technology (IT)
area, for example, the Federal Information Technology
Acquisition Reform Act (FITARA) legislation that passed the
Acquisition Technology Reform Act--that emphasized
consolidating data centers, which was one of our
recommendations. That saved about $6 billion right there.
For Congress I said acting or not acting.
Senator Johnson. My last question. What is the most
frustrating example that it is a piece of low-hanging fruit out
there that should be taken care of, that we should eliminate
the duplication, that you just have not been able to enact?
Mr. Dodaro. One is in the Medicare area. If somebody goes
into a doctor's office that is located within or affiliated
with a hospital, Medicare reimburses more for the service than
if it was provided in an unaffiliated doctor's office. Just
because it is in a different location, provider-based hospital
outpatient departments get reimbursed more money, for the same
service. To me that does not make sense.
Senator Johnson. That would cost how much to eliminate that
or change that? What would it save?
Mr. Dodaro. It would save billions of dollars, yes. There
are other ones in the Medicare area where they are not
adjusting the Medicare Advantage benefits based upon the most
recent beneficiary data and characteristics, such as race and
sex. As a result of that, again, billions of dollars are being
reimbursed in the area. The health care area has areas that
could have a lot of savings.
Senator Johnson. Thank you for your work. This is, again, a
really good guidepost for legislative action, so thanks for
what you have done.
Mr. Dodaro. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hassan. Thank you. Senator Lankford.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD
Senator Lankford. Thank you very much. Thanks for allowing
me to be a guest on this Subcommittee today, and to be able to
join in on the conversation.
Gene, it is good to see you again. Thanks for the work.
Thanks for your whole team and the work they continue to do and
be able to drive some things home. I really appreciate that.
It may surprise you that I am going to ask first about
Taxpayers Right-to-Know. I know that will be shocking to you,
for me to bring this up. This is an area that you and I have
worked on for years, trying to be able to get to a point that
we can discover what is happening and where we have duplication
in government. Your team spends months working on things we
should be able to pull up in seconds online, and we are working
toward that.
OMB had some small pilots on that back in 2019, 2020. They
have now tried to be able to advance on it. I have a couple of
questions.
Are you tracking, week to week, month to month, on the
progress being made on Taxpayers Right-to-Know implementation?
Are they on track to be able to make it by 2027?
Mr. Dodaro. We are tracking it. In fact, our team has a
meeting with OMB staff again tomorrow. We are meeting on a
regular basis with them. Whether they are on track or not yet,
I think that is an open question. They have four additional
demonstration pilots that they are planning to conduct, as you
know. Their target is to finish those by 2025, contingent upon
getting additional resources. Whether they get the resources
they believe they need or not I think is the biggest open
question.
Senator Lankford. As you are looking at some of the pilot
programs, talking somewhere around $20 million to be able to
run a pilot program for four of them. Am I remembering that
number correctly?
Mr. Dodaro. I am not sure, Senator.
Senator Lankford. It seems like a big number to me, to be
able to run a pilot program.
Mr. Dodaro. I have also encouraged them to go to the
agencies to get help in this area through the various councils
that are in place. They tap the Executive Branch agencies often
to provide support and resources to help run these kinds of
pilot programs. I think that is the real key issue. What I am
keeping an eye on is whether they are requesting and getting
the resources, directly or from the agencies. After a while, if
I do not see that on track I will definitely let you know.
Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you. I think it is extremely
important. We are never going to be able to get on top of the
inefficiencies and duplication if you cannot see it, so this
allows us the opportunity to be able to see it, know if it is
being evaluated, know the personnel that is being committed to
it, and whether it is helpful or not.
This is not about just slashing programs. This is
discovering if we have 150 STEM programs. Oh look, we have 150
STEM programs. We could not see it before so let's try to
figure out what is actually working and what is not working
with it. I appreciate that very much.
On that same line, you had some recommendations on trade-
based money laundering as well and found some duplication and
fragmentation in that area. It brings up an issue that I have
been poking around on a little bit, and it is the lines of
authority in Federal law enforcement. We have the Federal
Bureau of Investigation (FBI), we have the Drug Enforcement
Administration (DEA), we have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives (ATF), we have Homeland Security
Investigations (HSI), and we have Treasury which is actually
doing investigations. In fact, all of those deal with
cybercrimes, for instance, plus we have Cybersecurity &
Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) that actually engages
with it as well.
Have you been able to do a recent study on overlap on
Federal law enforcement, how we are maintaining silos and
cooperation there, or where we actually have authorities in
some places, where we may have four different branches of
Federal law enforcement with authority there?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The latest work we did was in 2020. We
looked at the U.S. Secret Service (USSS) and their activities
versus others. Interestingly, we talked to 12 prosecutors, and
from a prosecutorial standpoint, all 12 said that they thought
it was beneficial to have more than one agency involved and
have jurisdiction because they bring different skills to the
process. Now 2 of the 12 said there are some negatives and
inefficiencies, and sometimes multiple agencies are
investigating the same entity without either one of them
knowing about it.
However, we have not done a broad-based work for a while. I
would be happy to talk to you about doing some additional work.
I have been in government a long time. This has been an issue
for a long period of time.
Now in fairness to the agencies, sometimes they will have
task forces--like there was an organized drug task force at the
Justice Department. There are some other task forces where they
bring together all the skills, and it is done very well and
effectively. The pandemic was another case where they have done
that.
If it is done well, it can be advantageous. If it is not
done well, it can be wasteful and duplicative.
Senator Lankford. There are moments when there is a crime
scene that has Federal nexus on it, and you have four or five
different agencies all show up, and you have this overwhelming
number of people trying to figure out who is going to do the
investigation, how it is going to work. I have not seen a lot
of places where there are bad relationships there. My interest
is, do they all need to be there? Are there tasks that they are
each doing--why do we have four of them to be able to do that,
in that situation, and what is the best way to be able to do
it? Who needs to have that clear line of authority so we do not
have so much duplication in the process?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. We would be happy to look at that issue.
Senator Lankford. That would be helpful. Same issue you
have dealt with before on dealing with the border, and you
dealt with last year, looking at DOD assets being used at our
Southern Border for assistance there. My understanding is there
are still seven recommendations that are open dealing with DOD,
but that seems to be accelerating. We had U.S. Marshals that
were down at our border over the last week actually trying to
help in some of the chaos there at the border, to be extra
manpower. Have you looked at all this manpower usage from
multiple different agencies in their delivery to the border?
Mr. Dodaro. Not to my knowledge. No. Nothing recently.
Senator Lankford. It is an issue, trying to determine, best
use of resources, what that actually looks like. There are now
contract workers that are coming on board as well at our
Southern Border, trying to help facilitate. Our Border Patrol,
it is no grand secret, the drug dealers all know it, but our
Border Patrol is so overrun that they have stopped doing
checkpoints. They have stopped doing a lot of the interdiction
for drugs along the border and in between the border points of
entry because they just do not have the manpower because they
are checking in so many people that are crossing the border
illegally.
I understand why the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
is trying to bring in additional assets, but trying to
determine what is the best use of those dollars and of people
and of resources and how we are facilitating the decrease of
drugs coming across our border as well, and do that
interdiction, I think would be extremely important.
Mr. Dodaro. OK. I would be happy to work with you on that
issue.
Senator Lankford. Great. We will get a chance to talk about
it long-term.
Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
Senator Lankford. Chairman, thank you very much.
Senator Hassan. You are very welcome, Senator, and I look
forward to continuing to work with you on Taxpayer Right-to-
Know and a number of other key bills.
Senator Ossoff.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR OSSOFF
Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for
all of your work fighting abuse, waste, duplication in the
Federal Government. I am appreciative. Comptroller General,
nice to see you. I appreciate your dogged, determined, and
independent minded approach to your job. You are a great asset
to the Congress and the taxpayer.
I am going to expand the scope of this discussion a bit
into some recent work that GAO has undertaken, with a
particular focus on the opioid crisis and its impact on
families and communities in the State of Georgia and on
consumer product safety for families with babies and young
children.
Just to set the table, in brief, what kind of follow-up
does GAO do to assess whether or not agencies to whom you make
recommendations for change or reform are indeed undertaking
such change and reform?
Mr. Dodaro. We have a regular recommendation follow-up
process, Senator. At a minimum, every 6 months we check in with
the agencies and we report on that. For this overlap and
duplication work we do, for example, every year we follow up
and have a public Action Tracker that says what the agencies
have done, what they yet need to do. It is a very rigorous
process for follow-up.
I also send a letter each year to every agency head across
the Federal Government listing priority open GAO
recommendations that they have not yet implemented, to try to
get them to move in that area.
Lastly, where we see the agencies not being responsive in a
timely manner, or not at all, we will work with the Congress to
try to get the Congress to require the agencies to implement
our recommendations. Regularly, every year, appropriation bills
have many provisions requiring agencies to implement GAO's
recommendations.
Senator Ossoff. I appreciate that. The crisis of opioid
addiction, abuse, and overdose has impacted Georgia as it has
every State. Georgia Department of Health says that all drug
overdose deaths in Georgia increased by 55 percent from 2019 to
2021, and to help address this problem last year Senator
Grassley and I introduced, and the Senate passed, our Rural
Opioid Abuse Prevention Act.
GAO undertook work, a June 2022 report, with
recommendations to Department of Justice (DOJ) and DEA about
developing guidance for registered drug distributors, meant to
help ensure the availability of medicine for legitimate use
while limiting the availability of dangerous opioids for abuse
and for diversion to illegal markets.
What I would like to do is ask for you to affirm, as I am
pressing every relevant agency in the Federal Government to
intensify their work to reduce the destruction wreaked by
opioid abuse across the country, ask for you to affirm that you
are continuing to monitor DOJ and DEA's progress in
implementing those recommendations, and ask you for a
commitment, and indeed an affirmation that you will, as you
typically do, report to my office, this Committee, and the
Congress with the progress that you are making to help save
lives on this issue.
Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely, Senator. You have my commitment on
that.
There are proposed regulations out to deal with
implementing our recommendations on the suspicious reporting,
and to put more guidance out to agencies to codify the legal
requirements for providers as well as to provide additional
guidance to them on how to report suspicious ordering
activities. My understanding is, from my team, is that guidance
is due to be a final regulation soon. We are monitoring those
two recommendations we have for Department of Justice and DEA
as well.
I might also point out, Senator, that I have designated
drug misuse as a high-risk area across the entire Federal
Government. We have a number of recommendations open. I would
be happy to brief your staff on that high-risk designation. In
fact, yesterday I talked to Dr. Rahul Gupta, about the national
strategy. I put it on the list because we did not have a
national strategy. There really was not good coordination among
Federal agencies, let alone the Federal, State, and local
level, with law enforcement, health care providers, people in
treatment options, and others.
I am very concerned about this issue. I share your concern
about it, and you have my commitment that we will do everything
we can to ensure our recommendations are implemented and that
we can effectively keep you apprised of those efforts.
Senator Ossoff. I appreciate that commitment, and I want
next to discuss something that I know is top of mind for every
parent in Georgia, as the father of a 6-month-old baby
daughter, something that I can relate to intensely, which is
the concern about the safety of the products that families buy,
whether it is strollers or cribs, that are under the regulatory
purview of the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), that
concern that a product malfunction or an error in manufacturing
could lead to the death or serious injury of an infant or a
young child. It is every parent's worst nightmare.
In recent years, the CPSC has obtained a recall of certain
products that pose risks to maternal and infant health. The GAO
issued, in November 2020, several recommendations for the
Consumer Product Safety Commission, in terms of the management
of case processing, investigative timelines, and how it
measures the effectiveness of its recalls.
How can we help make the CPSC system as timely and
efficient and effective as possible at ensuring that no parent
has to suffer the loss of an infant baby or a young child
because of a preventable defect in a product that never should
have hit markets or should have been recalled once it did, and
will you commit to the people of Georgia and to my office, this
Committee, and the Congress, that you will follow up with us on
the progress of the implementation of those recommendations,
please?
Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely, you have my commitment on that. I
am a grandparent of seven grandchildren so I share your concern
about this. There is nothing more worrisome than the harm that
can occur to an infant or others.
We also have an open recommendation to Congress here to
create an entity that can ensure effective coordination across
the government, solve jurisdictional issues between areas. Also
a high-risk area we have, Senator, is on food safety. Our food
safety system is fragmented. We will brief your staff on those
issues as well.
Senator Ossoff. Thank you. Georgia parents will be relieved
by that commitment, and I look forward to continuing to work
with you. Thanks for your testimony.
Mr. Dodaro. Same here, Senator. Thank you.
Senator Hassan. Thank you, Senator Ossoff.
Mr. Dodaro, I am going to submit a number of questions for
the record and look forward to continuing to work with you and
your team on some of the issues raised by those questions.
I did want to ask a question about IRS reforms and then
give you a chance to wrap up. I think that everybody who was
planning to ask questions has already asked. Let me start with
a question about the IRS.
Last week, I urged Treasury Secretary Yellen to do more to
address the tax return processing backlog. In particular, the
backlog has been fueled by the fact that IRS requires amended
tax returns to be filed on paper. In the 2019 Duplication
Report, GAO recommended that Congress authorize IRS to add a
scannable barcode to forms filled out on a computer but
submitted on paper. This would allow IRS to process returns
more quickly and reduce data input errors which could save
millions of dollars every year.
My legislation with Ranking Member Paul would give IRS this
authority, and I will continue to urge my colleagues to
consider taking up this common-sense reform.
Before we conclude today, can you briefly discuss the
impact that this particular reform would have on resolving the
tax return backlog?
Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will ask Jessica Lucas-Judy to elaborate
on my answer, but the short answer is that by scanning it, it
quickly gets it into digital form. You eliminate manual entry.
IRS has already demonstrated there is a good return on
investment from saving the labor costs. More importantly,
Jessica will explain how it could be helpful in further
enhancing IRS objectives, and Congress' objectives, for
enforcing our tax laws and processing returns faster.
Senator Hassan. Thank you.
Ms. Lucas-Judy. Yes, absolutely, it would help both with
eliminating or reducing the backlog as far as being able to
process returns faster, thereby also potentially reducing the
amount of interest that IRS has to pay on refunds that are
overdue. It would also help IRS to prevent and better detect
identity theft refund fraud. It would be able to get that
information from the paper tax returns into the Return Review
Program to be able to detect the identity theft and also help
with compliance efforts.
We definitely appreciate you introducing that legislation.
This is something that we have been recommending that IRS
pursue since--I think at least 2011 was when we first brought
it up--so we definitely would welcome that.
Senator Hassan. I appreciate that very much. Concerns about
the time that tax refunds are taking is probably one of the top
issues I am hearing about from constituents, on a steady,
steady basis. Obviously, for some people this is a matter of
financial stability all the way around. I thank you for your
work on that and we will keep pushing.
Mr. Dodaro, to wrap up our discussion today, why is it
important that Congress address the recommendation we just
talked about as well as GAO's other open recommendations?
Mr. Dodaro. We all want a more effective, efficient Federal
Government--operating in the best interests of the American
people. GAO's recommendations are all designed to do that, to
make government more efficient, by saving money--and enhancing
revenue collections to the government in order to deal with
these issues. Our track record is very clear.
Beside the overlap and duplication work that we do, we have
other recommendations that are implemented. In the last 5
years, we have averaged $158 back to the American people for
every $1 invested in GAO. It is a good return on the
investment.
But beyond the financial benefits to the government, our
work improves public health and safety issues, as we have
discussed today, and it makes government operate in the better
interest of the American people.
These are all things we are dedicated to at GAO--to make
sure our government works for the American people, it is
accountable, and its performance is what it should be to deal
with important issues. Where it is not, it is our job to point
that out and to deal with these gaps. Our work also puts
government in a better position to deal with national
emergencies.
For example, in 2015, we made a recommendation that there
ought to be a national aviation preparedness program for
communicable diseases. That was not acted upon. Here we were, 5
years later, in 2020, in a pandemic, with no plan. There still
is not a plan. I am trying to get that implemented as well.
A lot of people think of us as just, looking out for
reducing funding. We are not all about dollars. We are also
about public health and safety. We are about a better, well-
performing, functioning government to protect our country, from
national defense to health care, across the full spectrum of
Federal Government's activities and operations. We are
committed to doing that.
Congress does act. Over 76 percent of our recommendations
are acted upon by the Executive Branch and the Congress on a
regular basis. We are committed to continuing to work to get
full implementation of our recommendations, as I know you are.
Thank you very much.
Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. I appreciate the work of
you and everybody at GAO for exactly this reason. As one of my
mentors once said, ``Remember, never let the urgent crowd out
the important,'' and I think that is one of the things that you
all really focus on, is what is important and what do we need
to do, short term and long term, to make this government more
effective, both in terms of function and in terms of cost.
In closing, I would again like to thank you, Mr. Dodaro,
and the other Government Accountability Office analysts that
joined us today, for their time, for the testimony, and for the
important work that you all do for the American people. I would
like to reiterate that I look forward to continuing to work
with Ranking Member Paul and others to save taxpayer dollars
and deliver government services more efficiently and
effectively.
The hearing record will remain open for 15 days, until 5
p.m. on June 29th, for submissions of statements and questions
for the record, and this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:17 pm., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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