[Senate Hearing 117-371]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S. Hrg. 117-371

                       EXAMINING THE FINDINGS AND
                RECOMMENDATIONS OF GAO'S 2022 REPORT ON
                DUPLICATION, OVERLAP, FRAGMENTATION AND 
                OPPORTUNITIES TO ACHIEVE FINANCIAL BENEFITS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING OVERSIGHT

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
               HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS


                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JUNE 14, 2022

                               __________

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                       Printed for the use of the
        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
        
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-492 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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       COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                   GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              RAND PAUL, Kentucky
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
ALEX PADILLA, California             MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
                                     JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri

                   David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
                    Zachary I. Schram, Chief Counsel
                Pamela Thiessen, Minority Staff Director
    Andrew Dockham, Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Staff Director
                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                     Thomas J. Spino, Hearing Clerk


        SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGING THREATS AND SPENDING OVERSIGHT

                 MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire, Chairman
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              RAND PAUL, Kentucky
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
                                     JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri

                     Jason Yanussi, Staff Director
            Allison Tinsey, Counsel for Governmental Affairs
                  Adam Salmon, Minority Staff Director
              Agnes Germiller, Minority Research Assistant
                      Kate Kielceski, Chief Clerk
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                                 ------                                
Opening statements:
                                                                   Page
                                                                   
    Senator Hassan...............................................     1
    Senator Johnson..............................................     6
    Senator Lankford.............................................     8
    Senator Ossoff...............................................    11
Prepared statements:
    Senator Hassan...............................................    17
    Senator Paul.................................................    18

                               WITNESSES
                         Tuesday, June 14, 2022

Hon. Eugene L Dodaro, Comptroller General of the United States, 
  U.S. Government Accountability Office..........................
    Testimony....................................................     2
    Prepared statement...........................................    20

                                APPENDIX

GAO Report.......................................................    32
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
    Mr. Dodaro...................................................   166

 
                       EXAMINING THE FINDINGS AND
                     RECOMMENDATION'S OF GAO'S 2022
                    REPORT ON DUPLICATION, OVERLAP,.
     FRAGMENTATION, AND OPPORTUNITIES TO ACHIEVE FINANCIAL BENEFITS

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2022

                                     U.S. Senate,  
                       Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and
                                        Spending Oversight,
                    of the Committee on Homeland Security  
                                  and Governmental Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m. in 
room 342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Maggie Hassan, 
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Hassan, Ossoff, Scott, Hawley, Johnson, 
and Lankford.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN\1\

    Senator Hassan. Good afternoon. Subcommittee on Emerging 
Threats and Spending Oversight (ETSO) will come to order. The 
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Spending Oversight 
organized today's hearing to discuss the Government 
Accountability Office's (GAOs) 2022 Annual Report on 
Duplication, Fragmentation, and Overlap in Federal Programs so 
that we may identify opportunities to save taxpayer dollars and 
improve services by increasing government efficiency.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Hassan appears in the 
Appendix on page 17.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Government Accountability Office Comptroller General Gene 
Dodaro joins us today. We are also joined by several GAO 
subject matter experts who contributed to this year's report. 
Their testimony will provide the Subcommittee with greater 
understanding of the challenges agencies face as well as the 
recommendations that GAO has for addressing those challenges.
    Twelve years ago, Congress tasked GAO with producing an 
annual report on Federal programs that have duplicative goals, 
and that, as a result, may lead to wasteful spending. Since the 
first report was published in 2011, this annual report has led 
to $531 billion in cost savings and other financial benefits. 
GAO estimates that at least another $21 billion in financial 
benefits could be achieved if agencies and Congress follow the 
GAO recommendations laid out in the report.
    Congress and Executive agencies actions to address the 
nearly 1,300 recommendations made in these annual reports have 
not only saved taxpayer dollars but also have improved agency 
performance and resource management and led to better delivery 
of services to the American people.
    I remain firmly committed to ensuring that Congress does 
its part to eliminate duplication, overlap, and fragmentation 
to achieve cost savings for taxpayers and improve program 
outcomes.
    I was proud to once again partner with Ranking Member Paul 
last year to reintroduce the bipartisan Acting On the Annual 
Duplication Report Act, which directly responds to GAO's 
recommendations for congressional action called for in the 
2019, 2020, and 2021 Annual Duplication Reports, and I will 
continue to work with my congressional colleagues to pass these 
common-sense proposals.
    Once again, I want to thank you, Mr. Dodaro, and to your 
team for testifying today, and for the ongoing work that you 
and your team does. I look forward to today's discussion on how 
Congress and Federal agencies can work to be better stewards of 
taxpayer dollars.
    As you know it is the practice of the Homeland Security and 
Government Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witnesses, so 
Mr. Dodaro, if you will please stand and raise your right hand.
    Do you swear that the testimony you give before this 
Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you, God?
    Mr. Dodaro. I do.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Please be seated.
    The Subcommittee is once again joined by Comptroller 
General Gene Dodaro. Mr. Dodaro's career at GAO began more than 
45 years ago, and he has spent the last 11 years leading the 
agency. In this position, he oversees the work that leads to 
the hundreds of reports, testimonies, and recommendations that 
GAO issues each year.
    He is widely considered one of the government's foremost 
experts on government administration, efficiency, and 
effectiveness, and he has testified before this Committee and 
Congress countless times.
    Mr. Dodaro today is assisted by GAO analysts who assisted 
with compiling this year's report.
    Welcome, Mr. Dodaro. You are recognized for your opening 
statement.

  TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE EUGENE L. DODARO,\1\ COMPTROLLER 
 GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY 
                             OFFICE

    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much Chair Hassan. Good 
afternoon to you. Senator Johnson. I am very pleased to be here 
today to discuss our 12th annual report on ways to enhance 
government efficiency and effectiveness. As was mentioned in 
your opening statement, Madam Chair, the annual reports that we 
have issued, had about 1,300 recommendations. Congress and the 
Administration have either fully or partially implemented 74 
percent of those recommendations, which has led to the cited 
savings that you pointed out. This includes $531 billion that 
has already been saved and another $21 billion that will be 
saved in the coming years.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Dodaro appears in the Appendix on 
page 20.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now we think there are tens of billions of additional 
dollars that could be saved in implementing the recommendations 
that were either partially or not at all addressed in our 
previous 11 reports. This year we have 94 new actions that we 
identified that could also lead to additional savings and 
improvements in government efficiency and effectiveness.
    Again, this year, as our prior 11 reports have done, we 
cover the spectrum of the Federal Government's activities. For 
example, the Department of Energy could pursue less expensive 
options for disposing of low-activity hazardous and nuclear 
waste, thereby saving tens of billions of dollars, potentially.
    We also found that Federal contracting leaders could employ 
the use of metrics that we found that a cross-section of 
private sector entities use to drive down costs and improve the 
performance of their procurement operations. This would give 
additional billions of dollars in savings.
    Also, the government could encourage better staffing at 
skilled nursing facilities. This would prevent very costly 
hospital readmissions or emergency room visits within 30 days 
of somebody entering a skilled nursing facility, where the 
government pays extra on top of the daily rate to that 
facility.
    There are opportunities for the Internal Revenue Service 
(IRS) to focus more attention on eliminating what has been a 
growing amount of interest paid on tax refunds, for various 
reasons. Also, there are opportunities to reduce overpayments 
in the Ticket to Work program at the Social Security 
Administration (SSA) for disability benefits. This is a program 
that is set up to help people get back to work, but if SSA does 
not make timely reductions to disability benefit payments to 
reflect higher wages earned, they are overpaying the 
participants.
    There are also opportunities at the Defense Department 
(DOD) to reduce costs for feeding the military through food 
services, travel reimbursements by putting changes in place. 
Millions of dollars could be saved there as well.
    We also have called on Congress to designate a Federal 
agency to be the lead and develop a national strategy for diet-
related chronic health conditions. Currently, there are over 
200 Federal efforts at 21 Federal agencies. There is not a 
coordinated national strategy. This has a lot of consequences, 
both for the health of the American people, the longevity of 
people, as well as additional costs borne by our already 
burdened health care system. We think this would be a good 
recommendation to implement as well.
    I thank you very much for the opportunity to be here today 
and to discuss our work. I appreciate very much, Senator 
Hassan, your and Senator Paul's introduction of legislation to 
support our recommendations. I very much thank you for that 
effort and look forward to continuing to work with this 
Committee. I have testified on these issues before, before 
Senator Johnson as well, and I appreciate the Congress', 
particularly this Committee's continued interest.
    Thank you very much.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much, Mr. Dodaro. I am going 
to start with a round of questions and then it looks like the 
next person up will be Senator Johnson.
    Mr. Dodaro, to date, GAO has made 121 recommendations on 
actions that Congress could take to address the wasteful 
spending and inefficient operations listed in the Annual 
Duplication Report. There are currently 59 open 
recommendations.
    How should Congress prioritize which recommendations to 
address? Are there particular recommendations that you think we 
should focus on first?
    Mr. Dodaro. I absolutely think those recommendations that 
have significant dollar savings potential should be among the 
top priorities. I issued a report last month, in which I have 
repeatedly warned Congress that the Federal Government is on an 
unsustainable--long-term fiscal path. The more actions Congress 
could take to reduce Federal spending the more that situation 
will help be resolved over time.
    There are also very important sets of recommendations that 
go to improving public health and safety. I would also give 
those high priority as well. The recommendations we have made, 
for example, in this year's report, about addressing 
approximately 50 million gallons of radioactive and hazardous 
waste that we have not yet treated or disposed of, and the 
costs are increasing every year. I mentioned the health care 
recommendations we have. The recommendations we have on 
biodefense strategies this year are very important, as well as 
the recommendations on the pandemic.
    My view, Senator, would be addressing recommendations where 
cost savings could be achieved and where there is a direct 
impact on public health and safety, those should be the top 
priorities.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. There are eight new 
recommendations across five issue areas for Congress in this 
year's report. One involves allowing the Department of Energy 
to run a pilot program to examine alternative ways to dispose 
of nuclear waste. Why is congressional action needed here? How 
would congressional action on this particular issue prevent 
further wasteful spending and inefficiencies?
    Mr. Dodaro. This deals with one of the biggest nuclear 
waste sites in Hanford, Washington. The government and the 
State of Washington have already agreed on how to dispose of 
the high-level waste and a portion of the low-activity waste, 
which they are going to vitrify, which means to immobilize it 
in glass. But there is 40 percent of the low-activity waste, 
called supplemental low-activity waste, that has not yet been 
decided how to treat and dispose of.
    The Department of Energy right now, with our encouragement, 
is testing using a grouting process, which would be far less 
expensive than the vitrification approach. Then that waste 
would be transported to a location in Texas that is already 
licensed, outside of the State of Washington.
    There are still some disputes between Energy and the State 
of Washington. Those disputes could potentially take this pilot 
test into litigation that would slow it down for years, and we 
are concerned as this is only dealing with a couple thousand 
gallons of waste. Congress, by clarifying that this is an 
approved project, would give Energy the option to go forward 
with this project to demonstrate the feasibility of grouting 
this waste.
    If they could use grouting instead of vitrification, they 
would be able to do this a lot faster and a lot less costly, 
thereby both saving money and protecting public health and 
safety.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. This year's Duplication Report 
also notes that 200 Federal programs across 21 agencies exist 
to combat diet-related chronic health conditions. GAO 
recommends that Congress assign a single Federal entity to 
coordinate these programs and develop a national strategy to 
reduce inconsistencies in policies and better manage resources 
for helping Americans struggling with these conditions.
    200 overlapping programs do not pop up overnight. Different 
perspectives and programs may be helpful in some cases, but it 
is hard to believe that having that many programs is the best 
approach to addressing these issues. How did we get to this 
point? How can Congress or agencies prevent this kind of 
situation going forward?
    Mr. Dodaro. This situation was similar to what we have 
reported on in our prior reports. For example, we found over 
150 science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) 
programs across many different agencies, a lot of education and 
training programs. They develop incrementally over time. 
Programs are never looked at to make sure they are working 
effectively. If there is a perceived need, there is always the 
creation of a new program, rather than making the current 
program work effectively. It has that similar pattern to it 
that we have seen in the past.
    Now Congress took action. Congress reduced the STEM 
education programs. I think something similar here could be 
done. But we need a strategy and input from the agencies.
    Legislation that you have introduced and Senator Paul have 
introduced requires the agencies to focus more on identifying 
overlap and duplication programs. There is really not a process 
in the Executive Branch to do what we are doing at GAO, and it 
should be done.
    Now a complicating factor here, as Senator Lankford knows, 
is that there is not a ready inventory of Federal programs yet, 
for people to look across the government and identify these 
programs. We spent an incredible amount of time and effort to 
dig this information out across the government. There are 
efforts being made to develop such an inventory, but your 
legislative proposals would require each agency, using the 
Office of Management and Budget (OMBs) guidance, to identify 
these overlapping programs.
    OMB really has the proper perspective, looking across 
government, to help deal with this issue across agencies. 
Senator Paul has a legislative proposal that would require GAO 
to look at new programs to see if the work that we have already 
done would indicate that those programs may be duplicative of 
existing programs.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you for that. I have introduced a 
bill with Senator Braun that would require agencies to identify 
duplicative or unnecessary programs and work with Congress to 
eliminate them. I take it from your comments just now you think 
that OMB might be the right kind of point of nexus. For 
instance, for these 21 agencies who are operating the programs 
that you highlight, the 200 programs, to combat diet-related 
chronic disease, OMB might be a good convener of a process.
    Mr. Dodaro. It has to be OMB, because the agencies have 
limited visibility on what is going on across the government 
without the program inventory. They also have parochial 
interests to protect, and so there needs to be a neutral 
arbiter to help identify and eliminate some of these programs.
    OMB could play that role, but quite frankly, it does not 
really have the bandwidth or the resources necessary to deal 
with all these issues. Designating a lead agency to do this, 
with support and oversight from OMB, would be the way to go, in 
my opinion.
    Senator Hassan. OK. Thank you very much. Senator Johnson, 
you are recognized.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON

    Senator Johnson. Gene, welcome back. Another good piece of 
work here.
    This really does show that a really well-crafted 
amendment--this was done before I came here, but Senator 
Lankford's predecessor, Dr. Coburn, passed this, requiring this 
duplication report, and it has saved the taxpayers over $500 
billion. It is a real tribute to him and you for implementing 
this well.
    I think we should be honest. Why do we have so much 
duplication? It is because Congress passes way too many laws, 
and we do not exercise enough care. You can have this listing 
of different programs, and that would obviously be helpful, but 
there ought to be some type of birdbath that before you 
actually pass a piece of legislation and bring it to the floor 
of the Senate it has to be compared against what already exists 
and whether it is going to be duplicative. It is far easier to 
do it on the front end than trying to do it on the back end.
    But let's talk about what you have done addressing this on 
the back end. It is interesting that you have said 74 percent 
of what you have highlighted over these 11--is it 12 years now, 
11 years?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Senator Johnson [continuing]. Have been implemented fully 
or partially. What I want to do is, of the $500 billion-plus, 
give us the best examples. How has it been implemented? I 
appreciate the fact that we are passing legislation. That is 
what we always try to do is make recommendations, come up with 
a piece of legislation, but that does not always pass. I mean, 
how are the different ways? We are almost fighting a guerilla 
war here, trying to pare back government. What has been the 
most effective ways, and the number of different ways you have 
seen your recommendations actually being implemented?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The biggest dollar savings have come from 
Congress taking action or not taking action. We found 
duplication between the renewable fuel standard and the ethanol 
tax credit, and Congress let the ethanol tax credit expire, 
which saved over $29 billion.
    There was a program that was supposed to be a temporary 
program--and some of these things start out as temporary 
programs--for direct payments to farmers, that duplicated a lot 
of other farm programs. Congress let that program expire--and 
that was maybe $40 billion in cost savings.
    Senator Johnson. Having every piece of legislation have a 
sunset clause is kind of a good mechanism for----
    Mr. Dodaro. You need a triggering event.
    Senator Johnson [continuing]. Eliminating future 
duplication.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. You need a triggering event, and you need 
to change the incentives. Right now it is incumbent on people 
like me or others to try to stop a program activity as opposed 
to the program having to prove they have been effective; they 
should have empirical evidence to show they are effective--and 
that they are deserving of additional funding.
    If you had a sunset provision coupled with the burden on 
the agencies to show that the programs are really effective, 
then you have a window of opportunity to revisit these programs 
on a regular, recurring basis. I think that would be helpful.
    Senator Johnson. It is interesting that the first thing you 
mentioned that has been most effective is for Congress not to 
act. I think that is interesting. Where Congress has acted, or 
where an agency has acted, give me some good examples of how 
action actually resulted in reduction in duplication.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. For example, this is an agency action in 
the Medicaid program that the Department of Health and Human 
Services (HHS), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), 
is allowed to approve demonstrations, but the demonstrations 
are supposed to be budget neutral. We found that the 
demonstrations were not budget neutral, and so it was costing 
more money--and it was not proving to improve program delivery 
in the Medicaid services. We encouraged the department, and 
they have done it, as these demonstrations have come up for 
renewal not to allow them to carry over money from year to 
year. That saved probably in the neighborhood of $150 billion 
right there.
    Also we recommended that the DOD use best practices for 
weapons systems development, like having sound business cases 
up front--including requiring programs to have technologies 
matured before program start. That has slowed down the cost 
growth in the weapons systems area by well over $200 billion 
since 2006.
    Those are a couple of the big ones that we have identified.
    Senator Johnson. Those are agencies acting.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Senator Johnson. Has Congress actually done something good? 
I mean, have we been able to pass legislation, either through 
appropriation bills? I am trying to figure out, what has been 
affected when we actually acted?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. For example, we identified ones where the 
military services were all developing different combat 
uniforms, as opposed to having a uniform set. Congress acted 
and required the agencies to implement an approach to 
developing the new uniforms that would be consistent across 
DOD.
    Senator Johnson. Would that be through NDAA then?
    Mr. Dodaro. Pardon me?
    Senator Johnson. Was that through the NDAA?
    Mr. Dodaro. I believe it was either through NDAA or through 
the appropriations. I am not sure.
    Senator Johnson. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. One of the two.
    Senator Johnson. That is fine.
    Mr. Dodaro. Then Congress passed a weapons systems 
acquisition reform in 2009, that implemented a lot of our 
recommendations. Those have been implemented as well. Congress 
has passed a lot of legislative changes that have improved 
things. They reinforced, in the information technology (IT) 
area, for example, the Federal Information Technology 
Acquisition Reform Act (FITARA) legislation that passed the 
Acquisition Technology Reform Act--that emphasized 
consolidating data centers, which was one of our 
recommendations. That saved about $6 billion right there.
    For Congress I said acting or not acting.
    Senator Johnson. My last question. What is the most 
frustrating example that it is a piece of low-hanging fruit out 
there that should be taken care of, that we should eliminate 
the duplication, that you just have not been able to enact?
    Mr. Dodaro. One is in the Medicare area. If somebody goes 
into a doctor's office that is located within or affiliated 
with a hospital, Medicare reimburses more for the service than 
if it was provided in an unaffiliated doctor's office. Just 
because it is in a different location, provider-based hospital 
outpatient departments get reimbursed more money, for the same 
service. To me that does not make sense.
    Senator Johnson. That would cost how much to eliminate that 
or change that? What would it save?
    Mr. Dodaro. It would save billions of dollars, yes. There 
are other ones in the Medicare area where they are not 
adjusting the Medicare Advantage benefits based upon the most 
recent beneficiary data and characteristics, such as race and 
sex. As a result of that, again, billions of dollars are being 
reimbursed in the area. The health care area has areas that 
could have a lot of savings.
    Senator Johnson. Thank you for your work. This is, again, a 
really good guidepost for legislative action, so thanks for 
what you have done.
    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Senator Lankford.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD

    Senator Lankford. Thank you very much. Thanks for allowing 
me to be a guest on this Subcommittee today, and to be able to 
join in on the conversation.
    Gene, it is good to see you again. Thanks for the work. 
Thanks for your whole team and the work they continue to do and 
be able to drive some things home. I really appreciate that.
    It may surprise you that I am going to ask first about 
Taxpayers Right-to-Know. I know that will be shocking to you, 
for me to bring this up. This is an area that you and I have 
worked on for years, trying to be able to get to a point that 
we can discover what is happening and where we have duplication 
in government. Your team spends months working on things we 
should be able to pull up in seconds online, and we are working 
toward that.
    OMB had some small pilots on that back in 2019, 2020. They 
have now tried to be able to advance on it. I have a couple of 
questions.
    Are you tracking, week to week, month to month, on the 
progress being made on Taxpayers Right-to-Know implementation? 
Are they on track to be able to make it by 2027?
    Mr. Dodaro. We are tracking it. In fact, our team has a 
meeting with OMB staff again tomorrow. We are meeting on a 
regular basis with them. Whether they are on track or not yet, 
I think that is an open question. They have four additional 
demonstration pilots that they are planning to conduct, as you 
know. Their target is to finish those by 2025, contingent upon 
getting additional resources. Whether they get the resources 
they believe they need or not I think is the biggest open 
question.
    Senator Lankford. As you are looking at some of the pilot 
programs, talking somewhere around $20 million to be able to 
run a pilot program for four of them. Am I remembering that 
number correctly?
    Mr. Dodaro. I am not sure, Senator.
    Senator Lankford. It seems like a big number to me, to be 
able to run a pilot program.
    Mr. Dodaro. I have also encouraged them to go to the 
agencies to get help in this area through the various councils 
that are in place. They tap the Executive Branch agencies often 
to provide support and resources to help run these kinds of 
pilot programs. I think that is the real key issue. What I am 
keeping an eye on is whether they are requesting and getting 
the resources, directly or from the agencies. After a while, if 
I do not see that on track I will definitely let you know.
    Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you. I think it is extremely 
important. We are never going to be able to get on top of the 
inefficiencies and duplication if you cannot see it, so this 
allows us the opportunity to be able to see it, know if it is 
being evaluated, know the personnel that is being committed to 
it, and whether it is helpful or not.
    This is not about just slashing programs. This is 
discovering if we have 150 STEM programs. Oh look, we have 150 
STEM programs. We could not see it before so let's try to 
figure out what is actually working and what is not working 
with it. I appreciate that very much.
    On that same line, you had some recommendations on trade-
based money laundering as well and found some duplication and 
fragmentation in that area. It brings up an issue that I have 
been poking around on a little bit, and it is the lines of 
authority in Federal law enforcement. We have the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation (FBI), we have the Drug Enforcement 
Administration (DEA), we have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, 
Firearms and Explosives (ATF), we have Homeland Security 
Investigations (HSI), and we have Treasury which is actually 
doing investigations. In fact, all of those deal with 
cybercrimes, for instance, plus we have Cybersecurity & 
Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) that actually engages 
with it as well.
    Have you been able to do a recent study on overlap on 
Federal law enforcement, how we are maintaining silos and 
cooperation there, or where we actually have authorities in 
some places, where we may have four different branches of 
Federal law enforcement with authority there?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The latest work we did was in 2020. We 
looked at the U.S. Secret Service (USSS) and their activities 
versus others. Interestingly, we talked to 12 prosecutors, and 
from a prosecutorial standpoint, all 12 said that they thought 
it was beneficial to have more than one agency involved and 
have jurisdiction because they bring different skills to the 
process. Now 2 of the 12 said there are some negatives and 
inefficiencies, and sometimes multiple agencies are 
investigating the same entity without either one of them 
knowing about it.
    However, we have not done a broad-based work for a while. I 
would be happy to talk to you about doing some additional work. 
I have been in government a long time. This has been an issue 
for a long period of time.
    Now in fairness to the agencies, sometimes they will have 
task forces--like there was an organized drug task force at the 
Justice Department. There are some other task forces where they 
bring together all the skills, and it is done very well and 
effectively. The pandemic was another case where they have done 
that.
    If it is done well, it can be advantageous. If it is not 
done well, it can be wasteful and duplicative.
    Senator Lankford. There are moments when there is a crime 
scene that has Federal nexus on it, and you have four or five 
different agencies all show up, and you have this overwhelming 
number of people trying to figure out who is going to do the 
investigation, how it is going to work. I have not seen a lot 
of places where there are bad relationships there. My interest 
is, do they all need to be there? Are there tasks that they are 
each doing--why do we have four of them to be able to do that, 
in that situation, and what is the best way to be able to do 
it? Who needs to have that clear line of authority so we do not 
have so much duplication in the process?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. We would be happy to look at that issue.
    Senator Lankford. That would be helpful. Same issue you 
have dealt with before on dealing with the border, and you 
dealt with last year, looking at DOD assets being used at our 
Southern Border for assistance there. My understanding is there 
are still seven recommendations that are open dealing with DOD, 
but that seems to be accelerating. We had U.S. Marshals that 
were down at our border over the last week actually trying to 
help in some of the chaos there at the border, to be extra 
manpower. Have you looked at all this manpower usage from 
multiple different agencies in their delivery to the border?
    Mr. Dodaro. Not to my knowledge. No. Nothing recently.
    Senator Lankford. It is an issue, trying to determine, best 
use of resources, what that actually looks like. There are now 
contract workers that are coming on board as well at our 
Southern Border, trying to help facilitate. Our Border Patrol, 
it is no grand secret, the drug dealers all know it, but our 
Border Patrol is so overrun that they have stopped doing 
checkpoints. They have stopped doing a lot of the interdiction 
for drugs along the border and in between the border points of 
entry because they just do not have the manpower because they 
are checking in so many people that are crossing the border 
illegally.
    I understand why the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) 
is trying to bring in additional assets, but trying to 
determine what is the best use of those dollars and of people 
and of resources and how we are facilitating the decrease of 
drugs coming across our border as well, and do that 
interdiction, I think would be extremely important.
    Mr. Dodaro. OK. I would be happy to work with you on that 
issue.
    Senator Lankford. Great. We will get a chance to talk about 
it long-term.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Senator Lankford. Chairman, thank you very much.
    Senator Hassan. You are very welcome, Senator, and I look 
forward to continuing to work with you on Taxpayer Right-to-
Know and a number of other key bills.
    Senator Ossoff.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR OSSOFF

    Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for 
all of your work fighting abuse, waste, duplication in the 
Federal Government. I am appreciative. Comptroller General, 
nice to see you. I appreciate your dogged, determined, and 
independent minded approach to your job. You are a great asset 
to the Congress and the taxpayer.
    I am going to expand the scope of this discussion a bit 
into some recent work that GAO has undertaken, with a 
particular focus on the opioid crisis and its impact on 
families and communities in the State of Georgia and on 
consumer product safety for families with babies and young 
children.
    Just to set the table, in brief, what kind of follow-up 
does GAO do to assess whether or not agencies to whom you make 
recommendations for change or reform are indeed undertaking 
such change and reform?
    Mr. Dodaro. We have a regular recommendation follow-up 
process, Senator. At a minimum, every 6 months we check in with 
the agencies and we report on that. For this overlap and 
duplication work we do, for example, every year we follow up 
and have a public Action Tracker that says what the agencies 
have done, what they yet need to do. It is a very rigorous 
process for follow-up.
    I also send a letter each year to every agency head across 
the Federal Government listing priority open GAO 
recommendations that they have not yet implemented, to try to 
get them to move in that area.
    Lastly, where we see the agencies not being responsive in a 
timely manner, or not at all, we will work with the Congress to 
try to get the Congress to require the agencies to implement 
our recommendations. Regularly, every year, appropriation bills 
have many provisions requiring agencies to implement GAO's 
recommendations.
    Senator Ossoff. I appreciate that. The crisis of opioid 
addiction, abuse, and overdose has impacted Georgia as it has 
every State. Georgia Department of Health says that all drug 
overdose deaths in Georgia increased by 55 percent from 2019 to 
2021, and to help address this problem last year Senator 
Grassley and I introduced, and the Senate passed, our Rural 
Opioid Abuse Prevention Act.
    GAO undertook work, a June 2022 report, with 
recommendations to Department of Justice (DOJ) and DEA about 
developing guidance for registered drug distributors, meant to 
help ensure the availability of medicine for legitimate use 
while limiting the availability of dangerous opioids for abuse 
and for diversion to illegal markets.
    What I would like to do is ask for you to affirm, as I am 
pressing every relevant agency in the Federal Government to 
intensify their work to reduce the destruction wreaked by 
opioid abuse across the country, ask for you to affirm that you 
are continuing to monitor DOJ and DEA's progress in 
implementing those recommendations, and ask you for a 
commitment, and indeed an affirmation that you will, as you 
typically do, report to my office, this Committee, and the 
Congress with the progress that you are making to help save 
lives on this issue.
    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely, Senator. You have my commitment on 
that.
    There are proposed regulations out to deal with 
implementing our recommendations on the suspicious reporting, 
and to put more guidance out to agencies to codify the legal 
requirements for providers as well as to provide additional 
guidance to them on how to report suspicious ordering 
activities. My understanding is, from my team, is that guidance 
is due to be a final regulation soon. We are monitoring those 
two recommendations we have for Department of Justice and DEA 
as well.
    I might also point out, Senator, that I have designated 
drug misuse as a high-risk area across the entire Federal 
Government. We have a number of recommendations open. I would 
be happy to brief your staff on that high-risk designation. In 
fact, yesterday I talked to Dr. Rahul Gupta, about the national 
strategy. I put it on the list because we did not have a 
national strategy. There really was not good coordination among 
Federal agencies, let alone the Federal, State, and local 
level, with law enforcement, health care providers, people in 
treatment options, and others.
    I am very concerned about this issue. I share your concern 
about it, and you have my commitment that we will do everything 
we can to ensure our recommendations are implemented and that 
we can effectively keep you apprised of those efforts.
    Senator Ossoff. I appreciate that commitment, and I want 
next to discuss something that I know is top of mind for every 
parent in Georgia, as the father of a 6-month-old baby 
daughter, something that I can relate to intensely, which is 
the concern about the safety of the products that families buy, 
whether it is strollers or cribs, that are under the regulatory 
purview of the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), that 
concern that a product malfunction or an error in manufacturing 
could lead to the death or serious injury of an infant or a 
young child. It is every parent's worst nightmare.
    In recent years, the CPSC has obtained a recall of certain 
products that pose risks to maternal and infant health. The GAO 
issued, in November 2020, several recommendations for the 
Consumer Product Safety Commission, in terms of the management 
of case processing, investigative timelines, and how it 
measures the effectiveness of its recalls.
    How can we help make the CPSC system as timely and 
efficient and effective as possible at ensuring that no parent 
has to suffer the loss of an infant baby or a young child 
because of a preventable defect in a product that never should 
have hit markets or should have been recalled once it did, and 
will you commit to the people of Georgia and to my office, this 
Committee, and the Congress, that you will follow up with us on 
the progress of the implementation of those recommendations, 
please?
    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely, you have my commitment on that. I 
am a grandparent of seven grandchildren so I share your concern 
about this. There is nothing more worrisome than the harm that 
can occur to an infant or others.
    We also have an open recommendation to Congress here to 
create an entity that can ensure effective coordination across 
the government, solve jurisdictional issues between areas. Also 
a high-risk area we have, Senator, is on food safety. Our food 
safety system is fragmented. We will brief your staff on those 
issues as well.
    Senator Ossoff. Thank you. Georgia parents will be relieved 
by that commitment, and I look forward to continuing to work 
with you. Thanks for your testimony.
    Mr. Dodaro. Same here, Senator. Thank you.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you, Senator Ossoff.
    Mr. Dodaro, I am going to submit a number of questions for 
the record and look forward to continuing to work with you and 
your team on some of the issues raised by those questions.
    I did want to ask a question about IRS reforms and then 
give you a chance to wrap up. I think that everybody who was 
planning to ask questions has already asked. Let me start with 
a question about the IRS.
    Last week, I urged Treasury Secretary Yellen to do more to 
address the tax return processing backlog. In particular, the 
backlog has been fueled by the fact that IRS requires amended 
tax returns to be filed on paper. In the 2019 Duplication 
Report, GAO recommended that Congress authorize IRS to add a 
scannable barcode to forms filled out on a computer but 
submitted on paper. This would allow IRS to process returns 
more quickly and reduce data input errors which could save 
millions of dollars every year.
    My legislation with Ranking Member Paul would give IRS this 
authority, and I will continue to urge my colleagues to 
consider taking up this common-sense reform.
    Before we conclude today, can you briefly discuss the 
impact that this particular reform would have on resolving the 
tax return backlog?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will ask Jessica Lucas-Judy to elaborate 
on my answer, but the short answer is that by scanning it, it 
quickly gets it into digital form. You eliminate manual entry. 
IRS has already demonstrated there is a good return on 
investment from saving the labor costs. More importantly, 
Jessica will explain how it could be helpful in further 
enhancing IRS objectives, and Congress' objectives, for 
enforcing our tax laws and processing returns faster.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you.
    Ms. Lucas-Judy. Yes, absolutely, it would help both with 
eliminating or reducing the backlog as far as being able to 
process returns faster, thereby also potentially reducing the 
amount of interest that IRS has to pay on refunds that are 
overdue. It would also help IRS to prevent and better detect 
identity theft refund fraud. It would be able to get that 
information from the paper tax returns into the Return Review 
Program to be able to detect the identity theft and also help 
with compliance efforts.
    We definitely appreciate you introducing that legislation. 
This is something that we have been recommending that IRS 
pursue since--I think at least 2011 was when we first brought 
it up--so we definitely would welcome that.
    Senator Hassan. I appreciate that very much. Concerns about 
the time that tax refunds are taking is probably one of the top 
issues I am hearing about from constituents, on a steady, 
steady basis. Obviously, for some people this is a matter of 
financial stability all the way around. I thank you for your 
work on that and we will keep pushing.
    Mr. Dodaro, to wrap up our discussion today, why is it 
important that Congress address the recommendation we just 
talked about as well as GAO's other open recommendations?
    Mr. Dodaro. We all want a more effective, efficient Federal 
Government--operating in the best interests of the American 
people. GAO's recommendations are all designed to do that, to 
make government more efficient, by saving money--and enhancing 
revenue collections to the government in order to deal with 
these issues. Our track record is very clear.
    Beside the overlap and duplication work that we do, we have 
other recommendations that are implemented. In the last 5 
years, we have averaged $158 back to the American people for 
every $1 invested in GAO. It is a good return on the 
investment.
    But beyond the financial benefits to the government, our 
work improves public health and safety issues, as we have 
discussed today, and it makes government operate in the better 
interest of the American people.
    These are all things we are dedicated to at GAO--to make 
sure our government works for the American people, it is 
accountable, and its performance is what it should be to deal 
with important issues. Where it is not, it is our job to point 
that out and to deal with these gaps. Our work also puts 
government in a better position to deal with national 
emergencies.
    For example, in 2015, we made a recommendation that there 
ought to be a national aviation preparedness program for 
communicable diseases. That was not acted upon. Here we were, 5 
years later, in 2020, in a pandemic, with no plan. There still 
is not a plan. I am trying to get that implemented as well.
    A lot of people think of us as just, looking out for 
reducing funding. We are not all about dollars. We are also 
about public health and safety. We are about a better, well-
performing, functioning government to protect our country, from 
national defense to health care, across the full spectrum of 
Federal Government's activities and operations. We are 
committed to doing that.
    Congress does act. Over 76 percent of our recommendations 
are acted upon by the Executive Branch and the Congress on a 
regular basis. We are committed to continuing to work to get 
full implementation of our recommendations, as I know you are.
    Thank you very much.
    Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. I appreciate the work of 
you and everybody at GAO for exactly this reason. As one of my 
mentors once said, ``Remember, never let the urgent crowd out 
the important,'' and I think that is one of the things that you 
all really focus on, is what is important and what do we need 
to do, short term and long term, to make this government more 
effective, both in terms of function and in terms of cost.
    In closing, I would again like to thank you, Mr. Dodaro, 
and the other Government Accountability Office analysts that 
joined us today, for their time, for the testimony, and for the 
important work that you all do for the American people. I would 
like to reiterate that I look forward to continuing to work 
with Ranking Member Paul and others to save taxpayer dollars 
and deliver government services more efficiently and 
effectively.
    The hearing record will remain open for 15 days, until 5 
p.m. on June 29th, for submissions of statements and questions 
for the record, and this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:17 pm., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

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