[Senate Hearing 117-326]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 117-326

          OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                          AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                 of the

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 27, 2022

                               __________

    Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
    
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-246 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
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            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                              ----------                              
                 BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland, Chairman
                  RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Ranking Member
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           MARCO RUBIO, Florida
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire        JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           JONI ERNST, Iowa
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma
MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii                 TODD YOUNG, Indiana
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
                 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
              William Henderson, Republican Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Maryland.     1
Paul, Hon. Rand, Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky....     3

                                Witness

Guzman, Hon. Isabella Casillas, Administrator, U.S. Small 
  Business AdministrationWashington, D.C.........................    25

          Alphabetical Listing and Appendix Material Submitted

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L.
    Opening statement............................................     1
Davidson, Jonathan C.
    Letter dated April 27, 2022..................................    20
Guzman, Hon. Isabella Casillas
    Testimony....................................................    25
    Prepared statement...........................................    28
    Responses to questions submitted by Chairman Cardin and 
      Senators Hirono, Hickenlooper, Rubio, Inhofe, Young, and 
      Marshall...................................................    62
National Association of Federally Insured Credit Unions
    Letter dated April 26, 2022..................................    60
Paul, Hon. Rand
    Opening statement............................................     3
    Letter dated April 15, 2021..................................     8
    Letter dated April 15, 2021..................................     9
    Letter dated May 18, 2021....................................    11
    Letter dated May 6, 2021.....................................    19
Senators Paul, Rubio, Risch, Scott, Ernst, Inhofe, Young, 
  Kennedy, Hawley, and Marshall
    Letter dated April 15, 2021..................................     5
Senators Paul, Marshall, Risch, Rubio, Inhofe, Ernst, Kennedy, 
  Hawley, Scott, and Young
    Letter dated April 13, 2022..................................    16
    Letter dated June 9, 2022....................................    22

 
          OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27, 2022

                      United States Senate,
                        Committee on Small Business
                                      and Entrepreneurship,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:38 p.m., in 
Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Benjamin L. 
Cardin, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Cardin, Cantwell, Shaheen, Markey, 
Booker, Coons, Hirono, Rosen, Hickenlooper, Paul, Risch, Scott, 
Ernst, Young, Hawley, and Marshall.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, CHAIRMAN, A U.S. 
                     SENATOR FROM MARYLAND

    Chairman Cardin. The Senate Small Business and 
Entrepreneurship Committee will come to order.
    Let me apologize for being a few minutes late. We just got 
back from the memorial service funeral for Secretary Albright, 
which was a fitting tribute to her incredible service to our 
country. Several members of our Committee were at the memorial 
service, so literally the buses just got back to the Hill. So 
my apologies.
    Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us today, 
Administrator Guzman. We are now more than 2 years into the 
COVID-19 pandemic and 1 year into the Biden administration. So 
this hearing is an opportunity for our Committee to receive an 
update on the Small Business Administration's implementation of 
COVID-19 relief programs and learn how the Administration's 
Fiscal Year 2023 budget request will fund long-term initiatives 
to support our Nation's small businesses, especially those in 
underserved communities.
    Since the beginning of the pandemic, Congress has created 
several new programs to support small businesses, including the 
Paycheck Protection Program, the EIDL Advance Grant Program, 
Shuttered Venue Operators Grant Program, the Restaurant 
Revitalization Fund, and several others. We have also 
appropriated more than $1 trillion to the SBA to fund these 
initiatives. Congress gave the SBA an immense task, and I 
remain grateful for the thousands of SBA employees who worked 
around the clock to disburse this aid. They did an incredible 
service to our country and I offer my sincere thanks.
    Several independent studies have confirmed that the SBA's 
implementation of these programs was largely successful and 
improved over time, especially in terms of equity, the 
improvements, as a result of the thoughtful policies 
implemented by Congress as well as the efforts of the Biden 
administration to invest in underserved entrepreneurs.
    Today, after enduring the deepest economic contraction in 
several generations, our economy is growing at the fastest rate 
since 1984. We are back, but the SBA's importance has not 
diminished. If anything, the SBA has an even more important 
role to play in the months and years ahead. In the short term 
there are still many hard-hit industries that need support.
    Earlier this month I introduced bipartisan legislation with 
Senator Roger Wicker to provide additional relief to the more 
than 177,000 Restaurant Revitalization Fund applicants who 
remain unfunded, as well as other struggling industries. I just 
remind our Committee, these restaurants owners of small 
businesses were in line, they were qualified, they did 
everything right. There were just not the resources available 
in order to fund them, and as a matter of equity and need we 
need to act on that bill.
    In the long term, SBA must be equipped to meet the needs of 
the historic number of Americans engaging in entrepreneurship. 
According to the Census Bureau, Americans registered a record 
5.4 million new businesses in 2021, which exceeded the prior 
record of 4.4 million new business registrations in 2020. 
Remarkably, the surge is being driven by entrepreneurs in some 
of our most underserved communities, with minorities, 
especially minority women, driving the surge.
    President Biden has made supporting minorities, women, and 
entrepreneurs in rural communities one of his Administration's 
highest priorities. It is to unleash the full potential of our 
Nation, our economy opportunity and economic growth, creating 
not only good jobs but initiatives and innovation that drives 
our economy.
    The experience of the pandemic has demonstrated that the 
historic barriers that underserved entrepreneurs face are not 
insurmountable. Administrator Guzman, I am very pleased that 
the Administration's budget request doubled down on lessons 
learned during the pandemic. In particular, I believe the 
Administration's request to increase funding for the SBA 
entrepreneurial development programs would help create the 
strong entrepreneurial ecosystems that new small business 
owners need to succeed.
    Last week, the Administrator and I participated in a 
roundtable discussion with minority small business owners in 
Baltimore about the Community Navigator Pilot Program. It is 
clear from that discussion that the SBA has an opportunity to 
leverage the inroads it has made into underserved communities 
during the pandemic to unleash their untapped growth potential. 
I am also pleased that the budget request proposes an increase 
in lending authority for the 7(a) and 504 loan programs. The 
additional lending authority will further bridge the historic 
gaps that exist in private capital markets to ensure that 
entrepreneurs in all communities have the capital they need to 
start and grow successful businesses.
    Taking advantage of the current boom in entrepreneurship 
will also require action from Congress. First, creating a 
direct lending program at the SBA would allow for another 
avenue for access to capital, filling the current gaps in our 
financial ecosystem. A reimagined direct lending program would 
allow entrepreneurs to apply direct to the SBA or through 
community lenders for a Federal loan. As we know, many 
underserved entrepreneurs are discouraged from applying for a 
loan because of the high rates of rejection.
    Second, we must codify the Community Advantage Loan 
Program. The loan program is particularly successful at getting 
capital to underserved entrepreneurs. I was proud to join the 
Administrator, Vice President Kamala Harris, and Secretary Gina 
Raimondo at Howard University at the beginning of this month 
when we announced that the Administration will extend the 
Community Advantage for two additional years and implement 
changes such as increasing the maximum loan size and expanding 
the number of lenders that participate in Community Advantage, 
to make the program more helpful to small businesses.
    And finally, Congress must give the SBA the tools and 
resources to nurture the next generation of entrepreneurs by 
creating a network of incubators and accelerators on the 
campuses of our Nation's historical black colleges and 
universities, minority-serving institutions, and community 
colleges.
    Administrator Guzman, I want to close my remarks by 
thanking you once again for joining us today. You have now been 
in your role for more than a year, so I am looking forward to 
hearing more about what you have done to improve these programs 
as well as the insight you have gained in this time in order to 
help accomplish those goals.
    And with that let me turn to the Ranking Member, Senator 
Paul.

   OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RAND PAUL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM 
                            KENTUCKY

    Senator Paul. This hearing comes at a perilous time for 
small businesses. Inflation is at a 40-year high. The supply 
chain crisis is keeping goods offshore instead of on the 
shelves. Worker shortages across the country are strangling 
small businesses. The Biden administration needs to be held 
accountable for its policy failures. But accountability in 
government requires transparency. Federal employees, from the 
President's Cabinet on down, have an obligation to be 
forthcoming when the Congress asks questions on behalf of our 
constituents.
    Welcome back to our Committee, Administrator Guzman. But as 
I have said before, I voted for your confirmation in a good-
faith effort to establish a constructive working relationship 
with you as administrator. I hoped you would abide, by the 
explicit commitment you made during your nomination hearing to 
provide this Committee with information it requests.
    Unfortunately, you have not honored that commitment. Your 
agency and the officials you lead have repeatedly demonstrated 
an unwillingness to answer basic questions. Most recently, we 
sent a letter in January. It took 105 days for you to respond. 
You responded yesterday, and still did not respond with the 
information that was requested.
    When your associate administrator came before this 
Committee in February, he refused to answer a simple, 
straightforward question--do you believe the taxpayer has a 
right to know how you spend their money? I do not think it gets 
any simpler than that, and yet we could not get an answer.
    Likewise, for more than a year, over a year, we have been 
asking for information about nearly $100 million in loans given 
by the Small Business Administration unlawfully to Planned 
Parenthood. Since February 2021, members of this Committee have 
sent seven letters to you requesting information regarding 
SBA's continued approval of PPP loans. Despite a clear 
determination, these entities were ineligible by the previous 
administration. We have not gotten a clear-cut answer that the 
policy has changed or that there has been a directive to change 
the policy, nor have we received the information that we have 
requested, specifically the communications between you and 
Planned Parenthood.
    I request unanimous consent at this point to enter these 
letters into the record.
    Chairman Cardin. Without objection.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Paul. The information requested in these letters is 
necessary for the Committee to conduct adequate oversight of 
the SBA's handling of these loans. Specifically, these requests 
have included unredacted copies of agency records related to 
Planned Parenthood loans, records related to any Planned 
Parenthood affiliate's application for the loans, 
communications from or with any Planned Parenthood affiliate or 
their representatives, the names of the SBA employee who 
actually, if it was actually, conducted a formal or informal 
review of any of Planned Parenthood's affiliate's eligibility 
for loans.
    Not only have you ignored these written requests, you have 
failed to produce the requested documents, even after the 
Chairman and I met personally with you or with your 
representative to ask for this. Instead of cooperating with the 
Committee and providing the requested information, you have 
spent the last year obstructing our legitimate oversight 
efforts. It took you 3 months to tell us you were not going to 
give us anything from the last letter. We sent it January 11th. 
You replied yesterday, or someone in your office did, to say, 
``Take a hike. We are not going to give you any information.'' 
How you can possibly think that is transparency is beyond me.
    The SBA has forgiven at least 37 PPP loans to Planned 
Parenthood. Rest assured, members of this Committee will not 
stop seeking answers as to why over $77.9 million in taxpayer 
money was illegally given and now forgiven to Planned 
Parenthood.
    It seems the lawlessness of this Administration is not 
exclusive to the SBA. Federal law requires the Secretary of the 
Treasury to appear before this Committee to testify at regular 
intervals. It is the law. Secretary Mnuchin fulfilled this 
responsibility to do so. Secretary Yellen is nowhere to be 
found. We have been asking, as of today, for the last 366 days 
for her to appear, as she is mandated by law.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a 
letter to Secretary Yellen from all Committee Republicans 
requesting that she participate in this hearing or schedule an 
alternative time to appear as required by statute. I will note 
that we received a response, once again a few hours before this 
meeting, from an Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs, 
claiming that Secretary Yellen has delegated her legal 
obligation to testify to the Deputy Secretary. Can you imagine 
if a Secretary of State said, ``Oh well, you know, I think I 
will just send my Assistant Secretary of State to Foreign 
Relations,'' or the Defense Department, you know, says, ``Well, 
you know, I just do not think I will go to Armed Services this 
year. Maybe I will send my Deputy.''
    We write laws. We write laws so we can have oversight of 
the Executive branch, and Yellen is just basically thumbing her 
nose and say, ``Oh, I just do not think I will show up. Maybe I 
will send my Under Secretary.'' You do not get to create the 
laws. We did, and you would think there would be bipartisan 
support for adhering to the law and having the Secretary of 
Treasury actually appear.
    The law passed by Congress is clear that Secretary Yellen 
must appear. It is not happening. Secretary Yellen does not 
have the power to rewrite the law and to avoid being 
scrutinized by Congress. I fear that without a subpoena she 
will continue to openly defy Federal law.
    Administrator Guzman, thank you for being here today, and I 
look forward to hearing whether or not you will finally answer 
the questions and will release the information that has been 
requested on Planned Parenthood.
    Chairman Cardin. Did you want to put in the record the 
letter to Secretary Yellen?
    Senator Paul. Yes, if you can.
    Chairman Cardin. Without objection. And the reply from 
Treasury will also be made part of the record.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Cardin. If I might just comment briefly on the two 
points you raised. First, in regard to Planned Parenthood, and 
I might say it also involves other organizations in addition to 
Planned Parenthood, such as YMCAs and Boys Clubs, and issues 
like that. We have been going around on this for a long time, 
and I regret that the casualty has been that the Deputy 
Administrator has not been confirmed, even though that person 
is eminently qualified and no one challenges the person's 
qualifications.
    We have tried to do everything we can to accommodate the 
request for information. So I recognize we are in disagreement 
on this, but I do believe that the agency has provided all the 
information in regard to the circumstances, including the 
transparency of every loan and forgiveness that was given. So I 
just want the record to reflect we have a disagreement on that. 
I do not join the Ranking Member in his concerns.
    In regard to Secretary Yellen, I agree. I thought Secretary 
Yellen should testify before this Committee, and I so told you 
that. We have now gotten a formal reply from Treasury saying 
that she is formally delegating that to the Deputy Secretary, 
who, by the way, is a very competent person who has control 
over a lot of the programs that we are interested in. If the 
Ranking Member desires, I will arrange for the Deputy Secretary 
to testify before us. If that is not adequate, then we will 
continue to hold out hope for the Secretary herself to appear 
before us. But we can talk about that at another time because I 
do agree we should hear from Treasury in this Committee.
    With that let me turn it over to Administrator Guzman.

 STATEMENT OF HON. ISABELLA GUZMAN, ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. SMALL 
                    BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

    Ms. Guzman. Thank you so much. Good afternoon, Chairman 
Cardin, Ranking Member Paul, as well as the distinguished 
members of the Committee. Thanks for the opportunity to appear 
before you today, in person, to discuss President Biden's 
Fiscal Year 2023 budget request for the U.S. Small Business 
Administration.
    The President's budget requests a total of $1.06 billion to 
foster growth and opportunity across America's economy by 
supporting the SBA's critical small business programs and 
disaster assistance. This funding level generates practical 
investments in economic progress, and with your support allows 
us to continue delivering crucial programs and services for a 
surging wave of American entrepreneurs.
    Over the past year I have visited small businesses across 
28 states and Puerto Rico. I have witnessed the strength and 
resilience of American entrepreneurship first-hand. Despite 
hardships from the pandemic, America's small businesses and 
innovative startups are creating new jobs, powering our 
economy, strengthening our global competitiveness, and 
supporting working families, and Americans are launching 
businesses at record rates. Business applications have risen 
more than 30 percent from pre-pandemic level, and as the 
Chairman said, in 2021, 5.4 million Americans applied to start 
a business.
    One of this Administration's top priorities is making sure 
the opportunities of this growing economy are reaching all 
Americans. President Biden often says that ability is spread 
evenly but opportunity is not, and that is important because 
building equity, ensuring access and opportunity are open to 
all is not just the right thing to do but it is good for 
business and the economy.
    Thanks to historic legislation passed by Congress, the SBA 
has been able to deliver critical relief and help millions of 
small businesses, especially in our hardest-hit communities, 
survive the pandemic.
    In Fiscal Year 2021, the SBA distributed more than $450 
billion in financial relief through the Paycheck Protection 
Program, the COVID Economic Injury Disaster Loan, and Advance 
programs, the Restaurant Revitalization Fund, and the Shuttered 
Venue Operators Grant program. These vital relief funds saved 
jobs in every community in the country.
    Now we are delivering on the promise of PPP forgiveness. To 
date, 87 percent of all eligible PPP recipients have submitted 
forgiveness applications, and nearly all, 99.4 percent of all 
qualified applicants, have had their loans partially or fully 
forgiven.
    SBA has not only delivered on pandemic relief but our core 
capital programs, which support hundreds of thousands of jobs, 
are breaking records. Demand for SBA capital support is 
outpacing the resources available, with a 62 percent increase 
in 7(a) loans approved, and a 41 percent increase in 504 loans 
approved.
    Given the high demand for SBA's capital programs and their 
effectiveness for our small businesses, President Biden is 
requesting a 13 percent increase across our core programs for a 
total of $71 billion.
    In addition, the budget recognizes that SBA needs 
additional support to service $361 billion in COVID EIDL. The 
budget requests authority to reprogram existing balances and 
targeted COVID EIDL advance to support and service loans for 
the 3.9 million borrowers.
    A large percentage of these borrowers will start making 
payments in the months ahead, requiring SBA to shift from 
origination to servicing. As we enter this new phase of 
recovery, SBA must provide the borrowers with the needed 
resources as well as the quality customer service that they 
deserve.
    While my written testimony outlines other budget 
priorities, one additional key area I want to highlight is our 
efforts to upgrade our systems and processes to detect and 
prevent fraud. During this Administration, the SBA has acted 
quickly to protect taxpayer dollars, first by restoring 
controls and deploying new technology to mitigate fraud. Our 
work to implement or enhance fraud controls has been recognized 
by Federal accountability agencies and watchdogs.
    I also recently announced the creation of a new Fraud Risk 
Management Board to replace the Fraud Risk Management Council. 
This new board provides the oversight and the agency-wide 
coordination recommended by the GAO.
    Additionally, I designated a Special Counsel for Enterprise 
Risk to work directly in my office to further limit fraud and 
risk across the agency, in coordination with this established 
fraud management framework.
    To recover taxpayer funds we are working closely with the 
Office of Inspector General and other Federal authorities to 
refer suspected fraud to law enforcement authorities. Effect 
stewardship is necessary for the SBA to achieve our mission. I 
am committed to working with stakeholders, including Congress, 
to protect SBA's programs from abuse and ensure that legitimate 
businesses have a clear path to access the financial resources 
Congress has created for them.
    Thank you again, Chairman Cardin and Ranking Member Paul 
and the distinguished members. I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Guzman follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you, Madam Administrator, and once 
again thank you for your leadership. We will now start a round 
of 5-minute questions.
    I want to ask first, if I might, about the SBIR and STTR 
programs. I mention that because they are set to expire at the 
end of September. We do have legislation that is heading toward 
conference in the COMPETES Act, where the House has passed a 
clean, 5-year extension of these programs. We are hopeful that 
there will be some action in the conference committee.
    I have heard from our national security team and people at 
DoD that they are extremely concerned if there is a lapse in 
the program. I know by the work of small business, high-tech 
companies in Maryland under this program the type of work they 
are doing for our national security and defense in innovation 
could not be duplicated by companies that are--if we do not 
have the SBIR and STTR programs.
    My question to you is, how important is it for us to avoid 
a lapse in these programs, and in reauthorizing, is it 
important that we do not put restrictions in that could make it 
difficult for this program to continue to operate under its 
current authorities?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you, Senator. I do share that this SBIR/
STTR program is really strong for our Nation's innovation. You 
know, Qualcomm, 23andMe, great companies have come out of this 
program, and we know that it is very necessary, as America's 
seed fund to continue to provide this early stage capital, in 
order for us to stay competitive globally in such key 
industries and technologies.
    Any disruption, of course, would be challenging for those 
small businesses or those innovators. They need certainty and 
not having that within this program would definitely be a huge 
lapse in our ability to innovate as a country. And so I would 
encourage whatever we can do to continue to extend that for 5 
years as well as not inhibit it with any restrictions. I know 
that our partners, the 11 agencies that administer this 
program, have continued to advance their objectives and find, 
through our small businesses, innovative solutions to problems.
    Chairman Cardin. And I just note that we have extended this 
program, with bipartisan co-sponsorship, both in the House and 
the Senate, so it has enjoyed strong bipartisan support. The 
House action was done in the bipartisan manner over a long 
period of time. In fact, we have had legislation to make it 
permanent that has been supported by both Democrats and 
Republicans.
    September is coming up soon, so it is important that we 
express support for this. I would just urge you to be engaged 
in the conference activities to try to get this done.
    I want to talk about direct lending for one moment. I see 
that is in your budget, if I am correct on that. I think it was 
an initiative by the Administration, and it is certainly an 
area that I think is important.
    Could you explain why a direct lending program would help 
fill some of the voids we currently have in regard to access to 
capital by small businesses that traditionally do not have the 
confidence of the banking community. They may be the smaller of 
the small businesses. We know there has been a decline in loans 
to the smaller companies. The commercial lenders like to have 
larger loans. They are easier to manage.
    Can you explain the need for direct lending?
    Ms. Guzman. Yes, of course, and broadly we are asserting 
our interest and continued research in this area within the 
budget. No specific dollar amount requested.
    SBA, of course, has been doing direct lending through its 
disaster products to communities, both homeowners, renters, as 
well as businesses, since inception in 1953. With the small 
business capital access, the issues of barriers are strong, 
especially for underserved communities. Forty-four percent of 
small businesses get their capital through the banking system 
as well. Even in SBA's lending we have seen a decline in small-
dollar loans, especially $50,000 and under, but $150,000 and 
under in general, with less lenders in that space. As you 
mentioned, they are still complicated loans to do and just as 
expensive as a larger loan.
    The SBA's intent with direct lending is to get engaged and 
provide a simply alternative product for those institutions 
that may want support in financing certain business. It could 
be a community bank that is not underwriting restaurants but 
wants to retain that depository relationship and that customer 
and continue to support that business. And so they could access 
the SBA's direct lending vehicle with the eligibility criteria 
and underwriting standards that we would create and hold 
ourselves accountable to the same standard as them in order to 
fill that gap.
    That is the intent of the program, and it is really with 
the purpose of trying to simplify lending at the SBA and 
continue to work through our banking partners as well as 
others.
    Chairman Cardin. And last, let me just have you comment on 
why the Administration decided to extend the Community 
Advantage program and expand its availability. Tell us why that 
was important to continue that program.
    Ms. Guzman. For the same reason of these huge capital gaps, 
especially in small-dollar lending that we are seeing. We 
found, especially during PPP and during the relief programs, 
that our CDFIs, our community financial institutions, our CDFIs 
and our CDCs, stepped in and provided support for underserved, 
underbanked communities.
    And so we want to make sure that these businesses can be 
success. Community Advantage would simplify eligibility as well 
as underwriting, but as well, allow us to extend the pilot and 
allow more lenders in, so that we can get more CDFIs.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you. Senator Paul.
    Senator Paul. Do you believe the taxpayer has a right to 
know how you spend their money?
    Ms. Guzman. Most definitely. Yes, sir.
    Senator Paul. Do you believe Congress has a right to know 
how the money is spent, oversee the process to examine the 
paper trail of how decisions are made and how the money is 
spent?
    Ms. Guzman. As I shared with you, I believe in 
transparency, and I feel like there is a strong responsibility 
to continue that collaboration and open dialog.
    Senator Paul. Have you released to us unredacted copies of 
the agency records related to Planned Parenthood's PPP loans?
    Ms. Guzman. We have responded to letters. We have also 
provided you letters to Planned Parenthood entities from the 
SBA, all of the datasets underlying PPP with specific analysis 
of the Planned Parenthood, in particular----
    Senator Paul. We have specifically requested all of the 
records. Have you released all of the records to us?
    Ms. Guzman. There are a couple of items that we have not, 
including, as you mentioned, the names of the staff that were 
in the process of review. That information as well as the 
proprietary individual applications, the agency----
    Senator Paul. Have you released to us the communications 
between you and Planned Parenthood?
    Ms. Guzman. We provided you with the letters from SBA to 
Planned Parenthood entities, yes.
    Senator Paul. You have not released to us the 
communications from Planned Parenthood to you as well, in 
support of their application.
    Ms. Guzman. We have not released any proprietary 
information.
    Senator Paul. Have you released to us the information or 
the deliberative process that went into reversing the Trump 
administration's policy that had decided that it was illegal to 
give this money and that they should give this money back, it 
was illegal to give the money to Planned Parenthood? Have you 
released to us the deliberative process, any written material, 
on how you came to a different conclusion than the Trump 
administration?
    Ms. Guzman. For clarity there was no policy or law or 
anything that the Trump administration put forward. There was a 
preliminary determination letter----
    Senator Paul. There was no deliberative process on your 
part? There was no discussion? There was never a discussion 1 
day that says, ``Oh, you know what? We think they did not do 
this and it is not final.'' You would think you would have a 
meeting or something and you would have like a transcript of 
the meeting where so-and-so says, ``Wow, that was a crazy idea 
and we object to that.'' It just sort of happened and there was 
no discussion, meaning no deliberation of a major policy that 
the Trump administration said that this is illegal, because 
Planned Parenthood is so closely and tightly controlled these 
do not qualify as individual small businesses. They are a big 
business, not a small business.
    It is not a small thing to reverse that. Are you telling me 
that that was reversed with no discussion and no paper trail, 
and there exists no paper at the Small Business Administration 
that explains or codifies the deliberative process of how you 
changed your mind on this?
    Ms. Guzman. Well, just to back up again from a factual 
basis there was no policy implemented. We issue policies with 
information notices----
    Senator Paul. Well, it was, because they were told to send 
the money back. They received letters to send the money back, 
so you made a different decision. You cannot just say, ``Oh, 
they never made a decision so we did not reverse a decision.'' 
You reversed the decision, because instead of sending the money 
back to you--and some of them, I think, were attempting to send 
the money back to you, and I assume they sent you a check and 
then you sent it back to them. Did that ever happen?
    Ms. Guzman. What I am happy to----
    Senator Paul. Did that ever happen? That is a specific 
question.
    Ms. Guzman. I cannot----
    Senator Paul. Did any of the Planned Parenthoods send you 
money back, like they were told to, and then did you turn 
around and send it back to them?
    Ms. Guzman. I cannot speak to any specific ones, but let me 
share with you the action taken----
    Senator Paul. So if I write you a letter----
    Ms. Guzman [continuing]. By----
    Senator Paul [continuing]. In 3 months will you not respond 
to me again? The thing is, this is not a dispute over whether 
or not you are being transparent. It is not a dispute over 
whether or not you have given the documents. You clearly have 
not given us the documents. We want the documents to see how 
Planned Parenthood argued they are eligible for these loans. 
The Trump administration said they were not. They said they 
were. You say there was never any deliberative process and 
there is no paper. I do not know whether to trust you or not. 
But I cannot imagine an agency like yours does not at least 
have a meeting, there are no minutes to a meeting where you 
changed a major decision like this? It is $100 million and no 
one ever said anything. There is no written documents?
    You have not been transparent with us, and you have not 
given us what we asked for. We cannot do the oversight of 
whether or not Planned Parenthood is a small business or a big 
business unless you give us the information.
    Ms. Guzman. If I may----
    Senator Paul. You have turned this into a partisan 
position, whereas there was a time when this was one of the 
least partisan of all the committees in Washington. But your 
stonewalling has made it into a partisan position where we 
cannot get together to even meet to see if you can have an 
assistant because you will not give us the data that we have 
asked for.
    Ms. Guzman. The action taken in response to this 
preliminary determination letter was simply--which was defined 
again that there were just approximately 400 businesses under a 
whole code, including Planned Parenthood. All the action taken 
by me was to put those approximately 400 borrowers back into 
processing, all of them subject to the rules that were put 
forward by the agency. Of course, those were interim final rule 
notices, all the FAQs, all the information notices, not 
preliminary determinations.
    Senator Paul. So the bottom line is you are not going to 
send us the information we are asking for.
    Ms. Guzman. We have complied and sent you extensive 
information.
    Senator Paul. You have complied by not sending us what we 
asked for. So what you are saying, in a public hearing, is you 
are not going to send me the information we have asked for. And 
where do you get the legal authority just to deny Congress what 
they are asking for?
    Ms. Guzman. The agency has historically not provided 
proprietary applicant information. In addition, the specific 
names of employees----
    Senator Paul. This would be the arguments about whether you 
are a small business or a big business. We already know the 
name of the entity so that is no longer proprietary. We have 
heard of Planned Parenthood. We all know that is what the 
dispute is about. What their arguments are, about whether they 
are a big business or a small business, you would think would 
be very objective and you would be happy to show that you went 
through item this, this, and this, you had a meeting, you all 
voted that these five things they adhered to and they did not.
    If that does not exist, it means I do not think you were 
doing your job. If it exists and you will not give it to us, I 
think that is reprehensible.
    Ms. Guzman. Well, Senator, I would love to offer you, 
again, I know my team has offered to meet with your staff to 
review these----
    Senator Paul. We have tried for a year and you are not 
giving us anything we have asked for. Every time we have asked 
we wait 3 months and you send us a letter, saying, ``Oh well, 
we will give you this and this, but we will not give you 
this.'' We want to see the communications. We want to see the 
deliberative process about why you made this decision.
    Here is why I am also troubled by this, and I will end with 
this. In testimony before Congress on November 16, 2021, you 
stated that you were not aware of Planned Parenthood affiliates 
receiving forgiveness on their loans. We now have the data, and 
apparently they were forgiven on July 1st. So three, 4 months 
after their loans were forgiven you come before us and say you 
do not have any idea whether they have been forgiven or not.
    Ms. Guzman. I am not aware of individual loans, and so I 
became aware when I cleared a letter to this Committee, which 
was after that.
    Senator Paul. Well, you are not aware of it but we have 
been asking about it for a year. So I think it would be 
something that would rise to your attention.
    But the bottom line is all it would take is if you really 
believe what you said in the beginning, that you believe in 
transparency, if you gave us the documents this could be over. 
But you have stonewalled us back and forth, back and forth, 
over and over again. No evidence of what the deliberative 
process was on how you reversed a major decision by the 
previous administration, and now no documentation on what the 
arguments for why Planned Parenthood is either a small business 
or a big business.
    So I am disappointed, and will continue to be asking 
questions. And the thing is that ultimately I think the 
taxpayers deserve better.
    Chairman Cardin. Let me just--because the Ranking Member 
and I disagree as to the cooperation that we have received from 
the SBA. Just to try to set the record straight, the previous 
administration, the Trump administration, made certain 
determinations in regard to PPP loan applications, consistent 
with the law passed by Congress, because I was part of the 
drafting, as was Senator Shaheen, along with Senator Rubio and 
Senator Collins. And we did provide for nonprofits. That was 
one of the issues we talked about, and we did provide that 
those who have arrangements with similar groups are not 
necessarily disqualified. It depends upon the affiliated rules 
that are used by the SBA.
    The Trump administration processed those loans and allowed 
those loans to go forward. Then, I believe it was in January 
but I am not sure of the exact date, but there was a letter 
sent out to Planned Parenthood by the Trump administration that 
was somewhat of a perplexing letter, because it said they 
questioned their eligibility; please send back the money or 
tell us why you are eligible.
    Each of the Planned Parenthood organizations that wanted to 
proceed with the loan sent back a letter saying we fully 
comply, et cetera. They sent a letter back. No further action 
was taken by the Trump administration.
    The Trump administration also put a hold on about 400 
organizations that had questionable, or had to further explore 
whether they were qualified for affiliation or not. When the 
Biden administration came in, they released the holds, as I 
understand it, on the 400 organizations, saying if they comply, 
and there are standard procedures for determining affiliation 
based upon control, they would be able to be eligible, and if 
they did not, they were not.
    There was no change in policy. There was no change in 
policy by the Trump administration. There was no change in 
policy by the Biden administration. We have tried, on several 
occasions, working with the Administrator, to get all the 
information to every member of this Committee. What the 
Administration cannot provide is proprietary information on 
individual applications, which is standard practice of privacy. 
And second, they cannot provide information that does not 
exist, and since there is no change in policy there is no 
documentation of a change in policy.
    So I do not know how much more we can do on this. I have 
tried to provide as much information as possible. And let me 
just remind the Ranking Member this all started with the Deputy 
Administrator. We made arrangements for separate meetings to 
provide substantial amount of information about the Deputy 
Administrator, which was privacy information. We made it 
available so every member of this Committee could see it.
    I share the Ranking Member's desire for total transparency. 
I think the Administration has provided that in regard to the 
request that you have made. I just really wanted to put that on 
the record.
    Senator Paul. One quick point. When we did finally get the 
information on the person that had been nominated they said, 
``We will review this in private.'' The same goes for any of 
this. It could be any of the Planned Parenthood stuff could be 
reviewed in private as well, if you do not want it out on the 
front page of the newspaper.
    But the thing is, not revealing--there is an argument that 
goes back and forth on what is an affiliated group and what is 
a big business and what is a small business. I do not think 
that is a proprietary sort of argument. And if it is, then I do 
not know how we would ever do oversight. You know, what if an 
enormous Standard Oil of 1911 wants to be a small business? 
Would we not want to see what their arguments are on why they 
are a small business or why they are a large business and they 
get small business loans?
    So I really think that argumentation back and forth, from 
the advocate of the person who says, ``No, I am not a big 
business, I am a small business,'' I just do not understand how 
that can be proprietary.
    Chairman Cardin. I think we are having trouble 
interpretation here. The rules for affiliation are well 
documented by the SBA. There are specific guidelines that need 
to be followed in regard to satisfying the affiliation rules. 
And in each of the applications that was verified. I do not 
know what else we can say other than that. Some of the 
information in verification could be proprietary, but I am not 
exactly sure what you are looking for. Maybe I am confused.
    Senator Paul. What happened is the Trump administration 
said they were a big business. The Biden administration says 
they are a small business. So they were disqualified under the 
Trump administration and they are qualified under the Biden 
administration. And so there was argumentation we assume made 
by Planned Parenthood, through communications sent back to the 
Small Business Administration, saying, ``Hey, we think this is 
a wrong decision and we do not want to send our money back.''
    I think some of them actually sent their money back, and I 
think they should be honest with us. Did some Planned 
Parenthoods send their money back? Will you answer that 
question?
    Chairman Cardin. If I could just respond to that and then 
let the Administrator respond. I think you are making an 
assumption about the Trump administration which is not accurate 
and maybe you need the information from the Trump 
administration, because the Trump administration processed the 
loans. There is no indication that they had specific 
information to request this money back. The letters went out 
but without documentation from the Trump administration, not 
the Biden administration. So I think maybe it is the Trump 
administration you are trying to get the information from, 
which has not been an easy task for Members of Congress to get 
information out of the Trump administration.
    Senator Paul. No, this is information we know exists. It is 
from the lawyers and/or advocates for Planned Parenthood. These 
letters went back and forth. So Small Business Administration 
said, ``You are not qualified. Send the money back,'' and then 
they said, ``Oh no, we are qualified, and these are our 
arguments.'' Those arguments should be public record and we 
should be able to see what are the arguments for--you are 
right, the rules should be fairly clear, what is an affiliate. 
They are longstanding rules. But that should be out in the 
open.
    And, you know, it is sort of like are you a contractor or 
an employee? There is a whole checklist of things you look at 
it. But we would want to know what is the argumentation, 
because there are people who believe that Planned Parenthood, 
one, has the same legal defense for all of their affiliates, 
has the same sort of set of rules, and there is evidence that 
Planned Parenthood cannot make individual decisions without 
permission from the parent company.
    So there are arguments, at least on the side of them being 
considered to be a big business, not a small business. But even 
if we lose that debate we would want to see what was the 
debate, what was the discussion back and forth, because they 
did reverse the Trump decision not to give them the money, and 
then they gave them the money.
    Chairman Cardin. I think confusion here--and then we will 
go back to the questioning--I think the confusion is that the 
determinations were made by the Trump administration. The Biden 
administration released a hold. They looked at the records that 
were submitted, the information that was submitted. There was 
not a hearing. There was not a discussion. This was paper being 
processed.
    Remember talking about, in this case, hundreds of loans. 
There is not a day set aside for argument. It is a process at 
SBA, looking at the material submitted by the applicant to see 
if they comply with the test. I assume that is the process that 
was used. That is the documentation. There is no verbal 
documentations here. This was a processing process.
    So I think that is our confusion, and the confusion where 
we seem to be at deadlock is that the original determination 
was made by the Trump administration. There is no documentation 
for why that letter was sent out, asking for the money back. 
But it never was implemented because they did not follow up 
after the reply was sent in by Planned Parenthood. Then comes 
in the Biden administration and they are looking at this in 
puzzlement because they have 400 that are in this category and 
only Planned Parenthood got the letters. They do not understand 
why. What the Administration does, I think, is the right thing, 
is tell the processors, ``Check to make sure they qualify under 
our rules, based upon the information that has been 
submitted.''
    Senator Paul. I think that decisionmaking process involved 
reading the advocates for Planned Parenthood's arguments for 
why they are a small business, not a big business.
    Chairman Cardin. They may have read the correspondence.
    Senator Paul. That is what I mean. So that correspondence 
would be the advocacy. And while there might not be a 
deliberative process where they say why, we would see the 
argumentation, both for and again, or at least for why they are 
a small business. But we are being prevented from seeing 
Planned Parenthood's argumentation for why they are a small 
business.
    Chairman Cardin. If I am right I think one of the--I might 
be wrong on this, but I think one of the Planned Parenthoods 
released their letter. I might be wrong on that.
    Senator Paul. The Small Business Administration has not 
released any.
    Chairman Cardin. One of the Planned Parenthood groups did 
release it.
    Senator Hirono. Mr. Chairman?
    Chairman Cardin. Yes, Senator Hirono. You are next.
    Senator Hirono. Well thank you, as it turns out.
    So obviously we are not going to resolve this matter.
    Chairman Cardin. No.
    Senator Hirono. And for all the time that I have been here, 
Republicans have been trying to defund Planned Parenthood. OK, 
that is a fact. And every opportunity to make sure that Planned 
Parenthood does not get any assistance from whatever source is 
in line with the Republican position for the whole time that I 
have been in the Senate.
    And by the way, sitting here listening to the SBA 
Administrator and the SBA being taken to task for not being 
responsive and not doing their job is pretty rich, considering 
that the Republicans on this Committee have failed to show up 
when it is time for us to make a decision, up or down, on the 
nomination of Dilawar Syed to be Deputy Administrator of SBA.
    And I also listened to the Ranking Member say, just now or 
a little while ago, that this hearing comes at a perilous time 
for small businesses. I agree. We should get on with it, and we 
should start with Republicans not boycotting the numerous times 
that, Mr. Chairman, you have called on us to do our jobs on 
this Committee.
    So I do have one question relating to Mr. Syed for the 
Administrator. Knowing that these are perilous times, would 
having a confirmed Deputy Administrator on your leadership team 
be helpful to your work?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you so much, Senator Hirono, for that 
question. The Deputy Administrator plays a role in operations 
at the SBA, and, of course, that position is important at the 
SBA. Dilawar Syed is highly qualified and would be an excellent 
choice if the Committee moves forward to vote.
    Senator Hirono. Yes. I suggest that we all do our jobs.
    So regarding Native American businesses, as you know one of 
my top priorities is working to make sure that we do more in 
D.C. to better support Native businesses, including Native 
Hawaiian businesses, and I have had that discussion with you.
    Last year, for example, I worked with my colleagues to 
introduce bipartisan legislation that would fully authorize 
SBA's Office of Native American Affairs to ensure Native 
businesses have a stronger voice within SBA. So I was glad to 
see the President's budget proposal increase funding for 
outreach to these businesses.
    Can you speak to how SBA will prioritize outreach to Native 
businesses in the coming year, and describe some of the 
outreach activities that you would be pursuing with these 
Native businesses?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you, Senator Hirono. We share that 
priority, and the Biden-Harris administration and the agency 
moved to ensure that Native-owned businesses and Tribal-owned 
businesses can access the programs of the SBA. First and 
foremost, of course, I have elevated the Office of Native 
American Affairs to report directly to me so we can prioritize 
the activities, including outreach and education, and the 
administration of grants that they do to entities to help 
support them.
    I will highlight that within the Community Navigator Pilot 
Program that we have funded at the national scale, our Tier One 
grantee, Oweesta Corporation, which is a CDFI collaborative. 
And they are doing outreach to ensure that Native-owned 
businesses are connected to capital and resources within the 
Federal Government at the SBA. In addition to that national we 
have multiple, almost half of the entities that are funded also 
focused on Native communities and their various territories 
that they cover.
    So with this additional support of the Community Navigators 
we feel that our entrepreneurial development support to Native 
communities can be better satisfied so that we can connect them 
to our resources.
    And then, of course, on access to capital issues, as we 
expand our Community Advantage program and look at adding new 
CDFIs we are hopefully going to be leveraging these 
relationships with the Native CDFI community to increase access 
to capital.
    Finally, I would say, of course, that on our contracting 
programs in particular, that we have focused outreach on making 
sure that when we try to increase the number of small 
businesses doing business with the Federal Government that we 
do that inclusively, including to Native-owned businesses and 
Tribal-owned entities.
    Senator Hirono. I think these kinds of outreach efforts are 
really important, because just saying that it is important, if 
we do not put in process and ways that we are going to do that 
it just does not happen.
    And I also want to mention that the Office of Manufacturing 
recently created is going to be doing more to support small and 
medium-sized manufacturers. So that is a whole other area of 
funding that is going to be very important.
    And I will certainly give you feedback from the Native-
owned businesses that I worked as to how these kinds of 
outreach programs are helping them.
    Thank you for your commitment, Administrator.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you. We welcome the opportunity to work 
with you.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Ernst.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks today as 
well, Administrator. We appreciate it so much. We appreciate 
you coming in today.
    And over the last few months, of course, I have been doing 
the 99-county tour across Iowa, visiting a lot of our small 
businesses. And in each of those counties that I visit, 
constituents tell me that they are really struggling with the 
impact of inflation--of course, I am sure you hear it every day 
as well--on their small businesses, just the extreme costs that 
they are bearing, and including their ability to maintain their 
payroll for their employees.
    The most recent consumer price index report from the Bureau 
of Labor Statistics shows that prices increased by 8.5 percent 
over the last 12 months, which is the largest year-over-year 
increase for over 40 years. And over that same period, producer 
price index increased by 11.2 percent, indicating that most 
small businesses are experiencing increasingly diminished 
margins in real terms and prices for consumers as they continue 
to skyrocket because of the inflationary crisis.
    So inflation has created a hidden value-added tax on our 
small businesses in Iowa and throughout the country. From the 
SBA perspective, what is SBA doing to both help those small 
businesses navigate those climbing prices and also to prevent 
those costs from being passed along to consumers? And in your 
opinion, how can the Administration respond to inflation to 
help struggling small businesses?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you so much, Senator. I enjoyed my recent 
visit in Iowa, and I look forward to returning and hopefully 
visiting with you. You have some incredible small businesses.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you.
    Ms. Guzman. We are aligned. In terms of what the SBA is 
doing and what we are supporting for small businesses 
specifically, of course, the President's budget recognizes the 
burdens of higher costs and higher gas prices, or rather he 
appreciates the burdens. Some of the measures that are being 
taken around pocketbook issues, of course, SBA has a role to 
play.
    When we look at childcare costs, in particular, SBA is 
trying to help. That would not only help reduce costs but it 
also helps with the workforce. And, of course, we have boot 
camps, training, childcare, entrepreneurs in this space, and we 
have launched a series of conversations, roundtables with those 
childcare entrepreneurs and others to formulate new policies 
and be able to better support the expansion of that supply of 
childcare facilities, which will hopefully expand our 
workforce.
    The other, of course, part that the President's budget 
really focuses on is expanding our productive economy and 
manufacturing so that we can make more in America. Small 
businesses, of course, 75 percent of all manufacturers are 20 
and under employees, in particular. So they have a large role 
to play.
    We will be leaning in to supporting our manufacturers, to 
make sure that more small manufacturers can make things in 
America, and that includes not only the manufacturing 
initiative, the manufacturing hub that we are standing up 
within our government contracting business development but 
across our centers. Our centers do an incredible job of helping 
small businesses position for success. We want them to focus on 
manufacturing.
    And last, just specifically around inflation, we know that 
all those immediate pressures are difficult for small 
businesses. Our advisor network across the 1,300 centers plus 
the over 450 navigators are continuing to help small 
businesses. Our SBDCs are doing training on supply chain 
management. Our WBCs are doing innovative things. One is 
connecting military spouses locally to jobs locally. We are 
really trying to lean in to provide actual technical assistance 
that helps with today's problems.
    Senator Ernst. No, thank you, and I appreciate you raising 
the issue of childcare. That is something that Senator Rosen 
and I do have a small business bill that we have worked on 
together that would expand access to Small Business 
Administration loans, of course, for nonprofits and so forth. 
So we would love to continue working on that with you.
    And just very briefly, if you could expand a little bit on 
what you are maybe doing to assist small businesses in those 
rural areas that have been disproportionately hit by inflation.
    Ms. Guzman. Yes. For me, rural is very important. I spent a 
long time in California, traveling around rural, and I have 
tried to focus on policies. We have an Office of Rural Affairs, 
of course, that targets initiatives in the district offices. 
Our community navigators, actually nearly half of those as well 
are focused on rural. I have added that as a component as a 
measure within this program, as I would like to see our 
expansion of services to rural entrepreneurs. So we will be 
happy to track that for you.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you, Administrator. Thank you, Mr. 
Chair.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Shaheen.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 
Administrator Guzman. We are looking forward to having you in 
New Hampshire on Friday. We have a really interesting small 
business picked out for us to visit, so I look forward to that.
    You know, I remember being in the State Senate in New 
Hampshire in the early 1990's, when we had a very bad recession 
in the State, and five of our seven largest banks failed, and 
what kept small business afloat was the SBA. And the district 
office of the SBA was really critical in helping small 
businesses navigate, stay afloat, and that has continued. It 
is, I think, one of the most important agencies that we have in 
New Hampshire.
    And I recognize that SBA needs to balance a wide variety of 
funding needs, but I think our district office is an integral 
part of SBA's ability to deliver services for our small 
businesses, and I support really robust staffing for the 
offices.
    So will you commit to keeping Congress informed about any 
potential changes regarding funding, or closure of any district 
offices that could affect their ability to serve our 
communities?
    Ms. Guzman. Yes, we can definitely keep you in the loop of 
any of those anticipated plans. And I will say that the budget 
calls an overall 2.5 percent an increase in our budget, but 
some of that for salaries and expenses so that we can make up 
for some of those vacancies that we have. And I know how vital 
our district offices are on the front lines.
    Senator Shaheen. Is there a discussion underway now to 
reduce funding or close any of those offices?
    Ms. Guzman. We are not discussing any closures of offices 
at this time. You know, if anything, I think that remote work 
has enabled us to spread out a little bit further. But as we 
evaluate our staffing models and how we are going to achieve 
this new scale, in terms of our portfolio, but also the 
heightened interest in our services as a result of serving over 
8 million unique businesses during COVID relief, obviously our 
field and all our offices are undergoing that exercise, and we 
will continue to keep you informed.
    Senator Shaheen. So I should then interpret from your 
remarks that there are discussions currently underway about 
looking at funding district offices.
    Ms. Guzman. Correct. I mean, we, of course, have been under 
restricted resources in terms of our ability to meet with the 
growing salaries and benefits expenses and hope to see this 
2023 budget realized so that we can again strengthen the 
employee base of the SBA, especially in this environment where 
we are seeing new entrepreneurs at such record rates.
    Senator Shaheen. Well, Mr. Chairman, I hope we will stay in 
touch, this Committee, with what the SBA is doing with respect 
to funding district offices, because again, they are very 
important.
    Chairman Cardin. I would think this is an area that is 
going to be of interest to every member of this Committee, 
obviously. The offices are our contact, the bridge with our 
small businesses. So Senator Shaheen is correct. We are all 
going to be interested in any changes that are made.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I was really pleased that the Economic Aid Act in 2020 
included a number of enhancements to the 504 loan program, 
specifically regarding the ability of small business borrowers 
to refinance existing 504 loans. And I know, at least it is my 
understanding, that the interim final rule became effective at 
the end of July 2021.
    Do you have any data on whether we have actually seen, as a 
result of implementing these changes, an increased number in 
refinancing activity, and is that data you can share with the 
Committee?
    Ms. Guzman. I can follow up with you and make sure that my 
team presents any data on that. Yes, I will.
    Senator Shaheen. Do you have any sense, off the top of your 
head----
    Ms. Guzman. I do not----
    Senator Shaheen [continuing]. Whether there has been an 
increase in activity?
    Ms. Guzman [continuing]. Have a sense in terms of the 
impact, at this point.
    Senator Shaheen. Well thank you. I think that is one of the 
areas where it seemed to me that we could really support small 
businesses through that refinancing, and it would be helpful to 
be able to track that.
    Ms. Guzman. I can show that the 504 program overall is 
highly popular, which is why we are requesting an increase from 
$7.5 to $9 billion in the 504 program, in particular.
    Senator Shaheen. Great. Well I certainly support that.
    And as we know, the war in Ukraine, the unprovoked war in 
Ukraine, has imposed an unprecedented array of sanctions 
against Russia and Belarus. And given that it looks like that 
conflict is going to continue for some time, can you speak to 
whether we have heard from any of our small businesses about 
potential impact from those sanctions?
    Ms. Guzman. Our Office of International Trade actually has 
been working to advise small businesses of sanctions so that 
they can be compliant, and updating our online tools with that 
latest information. You know, anecdotally, I know that they 
have worked with a couple of businesses just to make sure that 
they have an awareness of who are impacted, but I could not 
give you further details.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you. I am out of time but I think it 
would be helpful for us to know what resources SBA has for 
small businesses who have been affected, so that we can help 
share that.
    Ms. Guzman. We will. Thank you.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Risch.
    Senator Risch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of 
all, let me say that this is an oversight hearing and I am glad 
you are holding the oversight hearing. It is how to determine 
how an agency is doing. And I never judge an agency by an 
individual case, but sometimes looking at an individual case 
gives you a thumbnail that there may be issues.
    So I am going to talk about an individual case. I have sat 
in this room for over a dozen years. Just before I became 
Chairman, Mary Landrieu had remodeled the room, and it is a 
very nice room and very ostentatious, and it provides us to 
give these flowery speeches about how important small 
businesses is, how important it is to America, and how we all 
want to help them.
    Well, let me talk about a case of mine now. I do not know 
how familiar you are with either the logging or timber 
industry. It is a very important industry in Idaho. And the 
industry has a tendency, like many industries, to consolidate, 
so you wind up with bigger and bigger companies at the expense 
of, of course, small businesses.
    And so over the years a lot of us have thought to see that 
when the United States Forest Service puts out bids that there 
is a set-aside for small companies, and this would be not only 
the logging companies that cuts the logs and then haul them to 
the mill but also for the milling companies, that are small 
milling companies.
    So there is a small business in Idaho that is a logging 
company, and they took advantage of the set-aside program, bid 
on a sale, and after the sale was bid it turns out that the 
logs that they were cutting, because of some industrial 
activity, have some small amount of contamination in the wood 
of asbestos. Not a big deal but a big enough deal that it 
concerned the small mills that they have to sell to. Now 
remember, a small company has to cut the logs and then they 
have to take them to a small mill. Well, this company was 
perfectly happy to cut the logs. However, none of the small 
mills would take them because they could not take the risk. But 
the large mills will take them. They are willing to take the 
risk.
    So this small company said to the SBA, ``Look, this is how 
the contract is working out. We cannot sell to a small mill. We 
can only sell to a large mill. But what we will do is sell the 
logs to a large mill and exchange them for logs which we will 
then take to a small mill.'' And so the slate is clean.
    Your agency has told them to pound sand, and they have 
asked over and over again to find a work-around for this, and 
they have been told by your agency that they cannot do it.
    Look, we all give these speeches about how important it is 
to help small businesses. This is a simple matter of a waiver. 
It is a simple matter of somebody making a discretionary call 
to be able to go through the steps that they have got to go 
through to comply, and that is get a small business to cut this 
sale and then the small business deliver that amount of 1,000 
board feet or 1 million board feet to a small mill to mill.
    What can you tell me about this?
    Ms. Guzman. Well, you are taking me back to my days in the 
Obama-Biden administration, as there was a timber rule that I 
had to deal with, with my government contracting team. And I 
know how difficult it is for those small mills to have to 
calculate the distance they travel to the types of mills they 
have to sell, et cetera. And so I cannot recall all the 
specifics but I recall the challenges as well as dealing with 
it in the far north of California, where, obviously, there is a 
big industry there as well.
    You know, I do not know anything about this particular case 
but I am happy to take it back to my government contracting 
team. I have asked my team, of course, to implement and first 
be steadfast on our controls. But I do know that we have to 
also give small businesses the benefit of the doubt and really 
evaluate the situation from their perspective and meet them 
where they are and be as friendly as possible, from a customer 
service perspective.
    So I will take it back and we will follow up with your 
office to see how we can assist in this matter, if it is a 
matter of a waiver, and understanding what the impacts are and 
our authorities within this area.
    Senator Risch. Thank you. I appreciate that. And this is an 
instance where the SBA that we all love and embrace can 
actually do some good for a small business, on a specific 
level. So we would appreciate your affirmative action on that.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you.
    Senator Risch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Cardin. Let me thank you for that example. Our 
Committee needs to be the advocate for where small businesses 
have a disadvantage over large companies. You are giving one 
example where a larger company could take the risk where the 
smaller company could not. That is something that we have to 
make sure that we level that playing field, so I appreciate you 
bringing that up.
    We have done that with bonding, for example, where it is 
much easier for a larger company to get bonds than smaller 
companies. So these are the types of issues that I think our 
Committee can play an important role, so thank you for that 
question.
    Senator Risch. Thank you.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Rosen.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chairman Cardin, and thank you 
for holding this hearing. Thank you, Administrator Guzman, for 
being here today.
    I want to agree with Senator Shaheen, the importance of the 
district offices. I can tell you that our office in the State 
of Nevada was instrumental. We could not have gotten through 
COVID and everything we had to do without the hundreds of 
webinars they gave to small businesses up and down our State. 
Ninety-nine percent of businesses in Nevada are small 
businesses. So I want to get a shout-out to them, and we need 
them to stay. It is really important. People know they are 
there, and they work with us.
    But I want to also talk about Nevada and tourism, because 
the pandemic hit travel and tourism harder than any other 
industry. It devastated small businesses across Nevada, and 
really across the country.
    The American Rescue Plan, which I was proud to support, 
included $750 million to the Economic Development 
Administration for states and communities impacted by job 
losses in the travel, tourism, and outdoor recreation 
industries.
    But to date there has not been any direct Federal aid 
specifically for tourism-related small businesses. So, 
Administrator Guzman, can you talk about why some of the SBA 
relief programs that Congress created, like Paycheck Protection 
Program, were in many cases not sufficient for hard-hit sectors 
like tourism, and why more targeted relief is now, and what 
other legislation do we need, especially our restaurants? Our 
restaurants are really hurting. The Chairman has some 
legislation out there. It is really important that we get them 
back on their feet.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you for that, Senator Rosen, and my team 
and I would be happy to work with your office and provide any 
technical assistance. We recognize how impacted the travel and 
tourism industry was. Of course, we also recognize that PPP did 
not sustain them for as long as they needed. We really focused 
our outreach on COVID EIDL to make sure that there was 
additional funding, affordable, patient, long-term capital for 
especially the hotel industry, as an example, as well as 
restaurants and others who need additional support if they were 
not able to access the Restaurant Revitalization Fund.
    I continue to hear from businesses that they are still 
recovering. Some of them have not, of course, returned to full 
revenue. And so at this point what we have to offer them is our 
continued modifications on COVID EIDL as long as funding 
remains, as well as additional support with our core programs. 
But we are happy to work with you to come up with some other 
solutions for the industry.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. It is really important because 
are not back, and tourism, it is coming back, not all the way 
back. Our restaurants are coming back, not all the way back, 
and we have to help them.
    And another way we can help them is to expand online 
resources for small business owners, because of the past few 
years, particularly during the pandemic, businesses have relied 
more and more on their online tools, ranging from teleworking 
to e-commerce. So it is important that the Federal Government 
also meets small business owners where they are, including the 
expansion of digital interactions between small businesses and 
the SBA's resource partners.
    So I have heard a lot from small businesses about the need 
for more digital tools and counseling through the SBA. Are you 
considering making investments to increase online access for 
small business to business counseling so they can use all the 
products that we fund?
    Ms. Guzman. Yes, and I am trying to be as efficient as 
possible with that and go to the industry itself and launch the 
Small Business Digital Alliance, in partnership with Business 
Forward and corporations who are already providing tools and 
resources for our Nation's small businesses. We know that three 
out of four businesses adopted technology to survive during 
COVID, and we want to continue to build on those trends for 
operational efficiencies as well as expansion in markets.
    We launched our first event with Google in Ohio, and next 
week, during National Small Business Week, we will be 
highlighting more resources to help small businesses with 
digital tools. It is a high priority for me to get businesses 
engaged in e-commerce.
    Senator Rosen. I think it matters.
    In the last few seconds I have I just want to talk quickly 
about new startups. There has been a spike in new startups, 
particularly in Nevada. Reno-Sparks area, nearly 100 startups 
have launched since 2020. And so I am a strong advocate for 
entrepreneurship. I want to see this surge continue. So what 
new investments--I am just going to go quickly--is SBA making 
to help support and encourage this surge of new startups that 
have happened, particularly during the pandemic?
    Ms. Guzman. For our innovative startups, of course we have 
the Accelerator program and the SBIR/STTR program, which we 
would continue to amplify out there in the communities. And we 
are making improvements to try to ensure that small businesses 
can access those programs, as well as, of course, our capital 
programs, which small businesses point to as one of the biggest 
challenges for them. And they want to hire people. They want to 
be able to expand. And so with the Community Advantage overhaul 
we are feeling confident that we can help more of these small 
businesses, and look forward to supporting your district.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I appreciate it, and I look 
forward to maybe Joni Ernst and I, our bill on nonprofit 
childcare having access to small business. That would be a real 
big help for people to go back to work.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Booker.
    Senator Booker. Thank you. There is an issue that I have 
been bringing up for two administrations now, and I have been 
proud to work with this Committee on it, and I am proud the 
Administration is taking such great steps on it. It is really 
to reduce barriers for justice-involved entrepreneurs. They 
face so many when it comes to starting a business.
    And April is Second Chance Month, in which we acknowledge 
both the deep power of redemption in our society when we 
support people making second chances and when we make our 
communities safer.
    Studies, as you probably know, Administrator, have shown 
that the greatest deterrent to recidivism is jobs, employment, 
a steady paycheck, economic opportunity, but too many justice-
involved people just do not have that. According to the DOJ, 60 
percent of formerly incarcerated individuals are unemployed 
still a year after they reenter society. For those who do find 
employment, their take-home pay is 40 percent less than those 
who are not incarcerated, and the average lifetime earnings of 
someone who has been incarcerated is less than those, 
obviously, who have not been.
    And entrepreneurialism is a real pathway. It is an exciting 
reality for people who have been involved in this system. A 
2020 analysis found that individuals with a criminal record are 
more likely to become entrepreneurs compared to those without a 
record, in part because it is a viable pathway to overcome the 
stigma of incarceration and a lot of the challenges.
    When the Paycheck Protection Program was rolled out by the 
Small Business Administration 2 years ago, the SBA initially 
denied individuals with certain criminal histories from 
applying. I was proud to work across the aisle with the Trump 
administration and with you to eliminate many of those 
restrictions. But we know that serious roadblocks still exist 
with justice-involved entrepreneurs who are trying to access 
the business and consumer credit that they need.
    In January, the CFPB released a report that described how 
the SBA itself has various restrictions that can bar applicants 
who are incarcerated, indicted, or on probation for felonies 
and other certain misdemeanors, which are inconsistent across 
programs and hard for consumers to fully understand. Meanwhile, 
that same CFPB report stated that there is limited evidence to 
suggest that criminal history decreases creditworthiness. 
Further, these restrictions are something that exists only at 
the SBA, not in the private lending space, and not even across 
other Federal agencies.
    And this is why I am so joyful to have worked with the 
Administration over the last several months to address this 
issue, and yesterday the White House announced that the SBA 
will take steps to remove these barriers from the SBA's 7(a) 
microloan and 504 loan programs, and is working toward 
addressing the problems across the rest of the SBA portfolio. 
This is going to have transformational effects on communities 
like mine and entrepreneurs across the country.
    And so with that long-winded approach, Administrator, could 
you tell me more about the impact of this change for small 
businesses and your commitment to it?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you so much, Senator, for that, and I 
share your passion for this issue. I was recently at Goucher 
College in the Chairman's district and met with several Second 
Chance entrepreneurs who are making progress in their own lives 
and in the communities that they are impacting.
    So the SBA can do more, and will be doing more as the White 
House announced, to simplify. We have already shown what we can 
do with the Community Advantage program, because the reforms 
recently announced include changes, removing those restrictions 
so that formerly incarcerated, indicted, et cetera, could 
access our programs. And we will be exploring that across the 
7(a), 504, and microlending programs as well.
    You know, further to that, I feel that there are a lot of 
learnings that could be had from not only the experiences of 
those entrepreneurs. We want to continue to highlight them and 
the opportunities and the pathways forward with technical 
assistance and more entrepreneurial education.
    And finally I will say I was recently in Ohio, meeting with 
an incredible entrepreneur that has a successful chain of 
restaurants as he is growing, just a couple to start, and 
hopefully grow, but who uses justice-impacted individuals as 
employees. And I think that is also a strong model to 
demonstrate, especially with such a tight labor market, to show 
what entrepreneurs can do as well for the workforce in this 
space.
    So I look forward to working with you across our core 
lending programs to make sure that they are inclusive and give 
everybody an opportunity, that entrepreneurship is a pathway to 
building wealth, and I agree with you that that is especially 
for these Second Chance entrepreneurs.
    Senator Booker. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Booker, thank you for your 
leadership on that. We are really working with the SBA to be 
able to provide the special attention to returning citizens on 
entrepreneurship opportunities. We are making progress. The 
Biden administration has been pretty strong on this. So thank 
you for your leadership on this.
    Senator Booker. Thank you very much.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Hickenlooper.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we 
would be remiss if we did not wish Senator Booker a birthday. 
You probably already did that.
    Senator Hirono. Right. Happy birthday.
    Senator Hickenlooper. I wanted to make sure that we did 
recognize him. I do not know if anybody wants to sing.
    Senator Booker. I would prefer not.
    Chairman Cardin. You may not know this. Your birthday 
present to him was to allow him to jump over you, because you 
were here earlier than he was. So I gave him your birthday 
present.
    Senator Hickenlooper. That is a nice gift, although then I 
only get one question because I have to go preside. I am on a 
tight schedule. So now my gift to him is give him a little 
guilt, which will just cling to his breast.
    I want to ask you a quick question, and you have to be 
concise. I will put my other few questions into the record.
    Ms. Guzman. OK.
    Senator Hickenlooper. First I want to thank you. When you 
come to Colorado it makes a huge difference, and your team has 
been remarkable. The barriers that you got over in terms of the 
Marshall Fire and really helping adjust, this affects people's 
lives in real time who have lost, in many cases, everything 
they own. Over 1,000 houses were lost.
    And I wanted to ask a little bit about the disaster loans 
that really are a lifeline for survivors. Modernizing how the 
SBA estimates building costs is a great first step, and that is 
something we have now, I think we are all together on. But I 
think we also have to look at how do we update the borrowing 
limits to reflect the median price of a home that has more than 
doubled in the 28 years since loan limits were last reset.
    So I guess what is the plan? How do we update the Disaster 
Loan Assistance home and personal property loan maximums to 
account for that nearly 30 years of inflation?
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you. Thank you for that question and your 
leadership for the community impacted by the Marshall Fire. We 
have so far supported over 100 million loans now, and we see 
the impact was huge. We were pleased to be able to do what we 
could do administratively to change the way that we estimate, 
and also have changed the process of going forward, we can move 
more quickly so that we can help borrowers at the inception 
with accuracy.
    We are looking at those levels, and as I have shared with 
you in our conversations, we will be exploring whether or not 
we can increase those limits for the borrowers and explore that 
subsidy impact for the future.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I have more questions that I 
will put into the record, but the one thing I have learned is 
if Dick Durbin is anywhere around the Senate floor you cannot 
be late for when you are presiding or there will be payments to 
be made.
    Again, I want to thank you so much. You have really done a 
great job with the morale. Every time I meet someone from the 
SBA I really feel rewarded, and I feel you should feel the 
reward of that effort time that obviously you are putting in. 
It is really having material results, so thank you for that.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you.
    Senator Hickenlooper. I yield back to the Chair.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you. Senator Markey.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
    So do you agree that there is a need to replenish the 
Restaurant Revitalization Fund so that minority-and women-owned 
restaurants who got pushed to the back of the line have the 
support they need?
    Ms. Guzman. We are seeing the impact continue for our 
restaurants and know that they need continued support.
    Senator Markey. So you support----
    Ms. Guzman. We would stand ready to deploy the program and 
know that we could support the nearly 158,000 small businesses 
that are waiting.
    Senator Markey. Yes, and on the Small Business Innovation 
Research program, of which Massachusetts has received tens of 
thousands of these grants and created hundreds and hundreds of 
thousands of jobs in our tech community, I am very worried that 
we are staring down a disaster with the program's expiration in 
just a few short months. We have seen this movie before. Could 
you talk about how important it is for SBIR to be reauthorized 
and fully funded?
    Ms. Guzman. It is one of the most valuable programs, I 
think, in the Federal Government, the SBIR/STTR. I mean, 
Qualcomm alone and their success more than pays for the program 
in many respects, as well as all the other great impact 
companies, 23andMe, et cetera.
    The program is really critical to providing non-dilutive 
funding to innovators, and I think SBA is proud to help direct 
that set-aside within the program for small businesses and also 
look to expand its reach to more underserved communities. I 
know that any disruption or anticipation of disruption could 
slow the processing down. It is already a difficult, slower 
process for small businesses to go through, and so we would not 
want to see that reduced, even for a few months, the impact of 
our ability to compete globally on innovation.
    Senator Markey. Thank you. And again, in Massachusetts the 
STTR and SBIR programs have been central to our innovation 
economy being created. It is so many thousands of companies 
that now exist, only because of these programs.
    So we thank you so much, and we appreciate the fact that 
these programs are merit-based, science-based, in terms of the 
awarding of the grants, and I think that is the best way to 
ensure that we maintain and enhance American competitors. We 
are definitely tied to the ability to get these ideas out into 
the market, creating jobs, and giving us an edge over other 
countries in the world.
    So we thank you so much. Thanks for all your great work.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you, Senator Markey.
    Administrator Guzman, the two largest programs that were 
created for COVID were the PPP program and the EIDL--not 
created. EIDL was there, the EIDL loan program, and then it was 
made eligible for COVID relief.
    The number you said in your opening statement is pretty 
remarkable, that you are now over 90 percent as far as loan 
forgivenesses are concerned, and you have been able to process 
that. We normally hear when there is serious backlog problems. 
It has been kind of quiet on our front, which means you must be 
doing a pretty good job.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you.
    Chairman Cardin. That is quite a record and I just really 
wanted to acknowledge that, and I am glad to see that you have 
been able to keep up with the demand that is out there, because 
the numbers are just staggering, and the dollar amounts are 
staggering, and it is critically important for our economy. So 
those small businesses that need to get those loans off the 
book through forgiveness, it is an important point. So thank 
you for making that a priority.
    In regard to the EIDL loan program, thank you for, first of 
all, you increased the dollar amounts, which we were very 
pleased to see. More than $100 billion has been issued since 
September. Most have gone toward the modification of existing 
loans, if I understand correctly. We know that there is no 
longer new loans being given, but there is nearly four million 
small businesses that participated in the EIDL loan program, 
which is again a remarkable number that is out there.
    These loans are going to need to be serviced. Does your 
budget give you adequate resources in order to deal with this 
significant workload that you are going to have in servicing 
these loans?
    Ms. Guzman. Oh, we are asking for $320 million to be 
transferred from COVID EIDL advance into the SBA's COVID 
funding so that we can service these loans into the future. Of 
course, they are 30-year loans, and so our budget request 
includes that transfer.
    Chairman Cardin. I think that is all the questions I had. I 
was pleased to see the Administration changed the Federal 
contracting for minority-and women-owned small businesses. This 
is something we have been asking for. Could you speak to the 
various ways that the agency is working with the Administration 
to ensure Federal contracting is more equitable?
    Ms. Guzman. Yes. I would be happy to. Thanks for that 
question. Within our budget as well we are asking for an 
increase in the 7(j) funding as an example. We think that we 
need to lean into entrepreneurial education, to help more 
businesses get contract-ready, and that is one program in which 
we hope to get more small businesses back in the system. There 
has been a 40 percent drop of small business contractors doing 
business with the Federal Government, and we want to make sure 
that is inclusive.
    The SBA also, in addition to the various reforms that we 
announced with the White House and OMB, we also, part of that 
released disaggregated data so that we could track performance 
of our underserved or socioeconomic groups. So as we continue 
to move forward in the future, outreach will be done to make 
sure that we can attract all of the businesses. Especially as 
we are seeing women and people of color start businesses at 
such high rates, we need to bring back innovation into our 
industrial base and recruit more small businesses. So we 
believe equity is a real key to ensure that we can continue to 
have a flow of contractors, small business contractors to do 
business with the Federal Government, so from an 
entrepreneurial development.
    But in addition it is capital. It is bonding. Those are 
also top concerns. And so we are working across our Capital 
Access Program as well as our SBIC program to make sure that we 
can get funding into the hands of contractors who need support 
to be able to deliver against these contracts.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you. We already had a hearing and 
talked a little bit about the Navigator Program and we are 
looking forward. It is somewhat a unique model, so we are 
looking forward to getting your assessment as to how that 
program is working through its hub-spoke arrangements.
    And the expansion of the Entrepreneur Resource Partners I 
know is very much appreciated. I have commented about the 
expansion of Women Business Centers in Maryland the Veterans 
Outreach Business Center in our State. These centers are really 
critically important.
    We also, although it comes under Commerce, the MBDA 
codifications in the infrastructure bill. It has also made a 
huge difference for small businesses, minority small 
businesses.
    So there is a lot going on, and we appreciate your 
observations as to how we can fine-tune these programs moving 
forward. I think this budget year gives us a chance to do that. 
We had some conversations that we may not be able to get the 
entire expectations we had in President Biden's initial plans 
that included the Build Back Better Act, but we think we can 
move some of these issues through the budget process. So we 
welcome your thoughts as we try to advance these ideas or these 
programs or these missions in any way we can.
    We are now moving beyond COVID, so how do we 
institutionalize what we have learned from COVID to have these 
tools moving forward that can help small businesses, in any 
economic circumstance, what is available to be activated when 
we have another challenging economic circumstance.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you, and we look forward to leveraging 
this moment as well. SBA has never achieved this scale or this 
awareness in the communities, and we want to build on that, and 
we look forward to collaborating.
    Chairman Cardin. And last, let me point out, to Senator 
Risch's point that I did on the logging. I have also been 
talking to Secretary Wyden in regard to taxes. There are many 
areas where small businesses have additional obstacles that 
larger companies do not have. So I hope that you will look at 
us as a partner to work with our sister committees here to try 
to help deal with issues that may not be under our Committee's 
jurisdiction but we can help small businesses, and we could use 
your advice as to how we can move forward to help America's 
small businesses.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you very much for that offer.
    Chairman Cardin. And again, thank you very much for your 
testimony today and for your service to our country.
    Ms. Guzman. Thank you.
    Chairman Cardin. With that the Committee will stand 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:04 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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