[Senate Hearing 117-322]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-322
BUSINESS MEETING
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MEETING
of the
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
APRIL 7, 2022
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
48-191 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
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COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont Virginia,
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island Ranking Member
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama
MARK KELLY, Arizona JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
ALEX PADILLA, California ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JONI ERNST, Iowa
LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
Mary Frances Repko, Democratic Staff Director
Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
APRIL 7, 2022
OPENING STATEMENTS
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West
Virginia....................................................... 2
LEGISLATION
General Services Administration Committee Resolutions............ 22
S. 3742, the ``Recycling Infrastructure and Accessibility Act of
2022,'' to establish a pilot grant program to improve recycling
accessibility, and for other purposes.......................... 40
S. 3743, the ``Recycling and Composting Accountability Act,'' to
require the Administrator of the Environmental Protection
Agency to carry out certain activities to improve recycling and
composting programs in the United States, and for other
purposes....................................................... 48
S. 2372, the ``Recovering America's Wildlife Act of 2022,'' to
amend the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act to make
supplemental funds available for management of fish and
wildlife species of greatest conservation need as determined by
State fish and wildlife agencies, and for other purposes....... 79
BUSINESS MEETING
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THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 2022
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The Committee, met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Sanders,
Whitehouse, Merkley, Markey, Duckworth, Stabenow, Kelly,
Padilla, Cramer, Lummis, Boozman, and Sullivan.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Good morning, everyone. I am pleased to
call this business meeting to order today.
We have, as you know, a very full agenda. We are going to
vote on nominations for key leadership posts at the
Environmental Protection Agency, wildlife conservation and
recycling legislation as well as 10 General Services
Administration resolutions.
Let me just take a minute and give you the run of the show.
We will vote on the nominations of David Uhlmann to be EPA
Assistant Administrator for Enforcement and Compliance
Assurance, and Carlton Waterhouse to be EPA Assistant
Administrator of Land and Emergency Management. I am anxious to
see both of these talented and dedicated men confirmed. And I
am glad we are finally taking an important step toward that
happening in today's process.
Then we will vote on the General Services Administration
Resolutions, and then on the recycling legislation by voice. We
will recess the business meeting and reconvene here at noon to
debate amendments on the Recovering America's Wildlife Act,
RAWA. Then we will stop and take any necessary votes off the
floor at 1:30 in the President's Room.
I want to speak quickly on a few of the business meeting
matters. He is not here, but I want to acknowledge Senator
Heinrich and Senator Blunt for their leadership on RAWA, which
many of you have joined, and their commitment to working with
our Committee to improve it. This legislation, as you know,
seeks to address a serious challenge that we face, biodiversity
loss, which threatens our economy, our ecosystems, and our
health.
While I believe we still need to find a way to pay for the
bill as it moves to the floor, we have a moral imperative to
conserve all of the species with which we share this planet. On
balance, the Recovering America's Wildlife Act is an historic
bill that advances shared conservation goals.
On the two recycling bills, one that I introduced with my
Senate Recycling Caucus Co-Chair, Senator Boozman, has joined
us.
Thank you, John.
And Ranking Member Capito, and another authored by Senator
Capito and Senator Boozman and I and others who joined in
supporting that legislation, co-sponsoring that legislation.
Both of these bills are bipartisan. I think they are a
product of the best of our Committee's tradition of working
together on conservation and sustainability issues.
I would like for us to proceed without delay. Before we do,
I want to ask our Ranking Member, Senator Capito, for any
remarks that she has.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank everybody for being here.
In the interest of time, I would like to submit my opening
statement for the record. I know everybody is going to be sad
about that.
[Laughter.]
Senator Capito. You can give me a standing ovation later.
[The prepared statement of Senator Capito was not received
at time of print.]
Senator Carper. Do we have a majority of the Committee
physically present, and mentally present?
Mary Frances tells me that we can start off by taking up
some of the GSA resolutions. The Committee noticed 11 GSA
resolutions for consideration at this business meeting. At the
request of one of our members, and after consultation with the
Ranking Member, we are deferring consideration of one of these
resolutions, the resolution for leased space in Sumner,
Washington.
I call up the remaining 10 GSA resolutions en bloc.
For the record, the Chair observes that a quorum is present
in the room. Given the presence of a quorum, I move to approve
these resolutions and report these matters favorably to the
Senate. All in favor, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Senator Carper. Opposed, say nay.
[No audible response.]
Senator Carper. The ayes have it. The ayes have it, and the
legislation is favorably reported.
Next, I want to call up our recycling legislation, first S.
3742, Recycling Infrastructure and Accessibility Act of 2022,
and S. 3743, the Recycling and Composting Accountability Act of
2022, and a Carper substitute Amendment No. 1 to 3743, en bloc.
I move that the Carper Amendment 1 to S. 3743 be adopted, and
that the Committee report both S. 3742 and 3743 as amended.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. I second.
Senator Carper. Thank you very much.
All in favor say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Senator Carper. Opposed, nay.
Senator Cramer. No.
Senator Carper. We have one nay. In the opinion of the
Chair, the ayes have it, and these bills are favorably
reported.
[Pause.]
Senator Carper. We are still waiting for Senator Markey and
one more member.
Senator Whitehouse. If I could, Mr. Chairman, very briefly,
I just want to thank you for your leadership on the recycling,
thank you for the hearings that you have done. And I look
forward to having this Committee continue to look into and work
on these issues.
In the arena of single use plastic, which is the stuff that
most often ends up in oceans and rivers and all that, the
American Plastics Industry has managed to achieve a grand total
of 2 percent, 2 percent recycled content. I teased them by
saying, that is how much falls in accidentally. Now that is not
true, but it is a measure of how helpless the recycling effort
has been, particularly as it affects that really important
single use, discardable, throwaway plastic. Not car parts, not
children's car seats, not bicycle helmets, not stuff that is
multiple use, but the throwaway plastic. We can do a lot
better, and I thank you, Chairman, for your leadership to help
us get there.
Senator Carper. This is, as you know, very much a team
effort.
My wife and I compost at home. We have a big bin behind our
house, and we turn it into really fertile soil for our plants
and stuff in our yard. We ought to have the ability to compost
in our offices as well as to recycle. And we are working with
Senator Capito's staff and Senator Boozman's staff and the
Architect of the Capitol to make sure that we start doing that,
and enable that activity. So we are looking forward to that.
Anybody else want to speak to any of these bills as we are
waiting the arrival of our two colleagues? Anybody else?
Senator Merkley. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Yes, please.
Senator Merkley. Actually not to the bills, but to follow
up on the point Senator Whitehouse was making.
Senator Carper. Please, go ahead.
Senator Merkley. The Tuesday edition of the Science Times
has in it that the results of an investigation have found that
the plastic in the ocean is largely binding with other
microorganisms and dropping to the bottom of the ocean,
changing the ecosystems tremendously. And that while that was
not the expectation, we thought plastic would float and gather
in kind of garbage centers in the ocean, some 98 percent is
dropping down way below the surface, much of it to the bottom
of the ocean, and is also changing temperatures in the process.
So we are learning a lot more about microplastic pollution
and how it alters the fundamental nature of ocean ecosystems.
None of the news is good news. It just continues why we have to
keep working on this intensely.
Senator Whitehouse. Particularly the news that
microplastics have now been found in human blood.
Senator Carper. Correct me if I am wrong, Sheldon, but I
have seen reports that the amount of plastic in the oceans now
weighs more than the fish and mammals and so forth.
Senator Whitehouse. That is the projection for the year
2050, when many of us will, with any luck, still be around,
although perhaps not as mobile as we are right now.
[Laughter.]
Senator Whitehouse. But for sure, our children will be
around. And I think the notion that we are going to leave to
our children an ocean that has by mass more waste plastic in it
than it has living fish is something that ought to drive us to
fairly diligent action. Some greatest generation we are.
Senator Merkley. While we are on the topic, Senator
Murkowski and I work together on the Appropriations
Subcommittee on Interior. And we just decided we would revert
to inviting people to bring their water bottles with them, just
symbolically. I would suggest that here on the Environment
Committee, we ought to consider doing the same thing, rather
than having the small disposables. An idea worth considering.
Senator Carper. All right.
Others, please.
Senator Capito. Well, I guess I can talk now, since we are
still waiting.
Senator Merkley. We are all waiting for that opening
statement.
[Laughter.]
Senator Capito. Well, I am pleased with the recycling
bills. I think it came out in the hearings and certainly from a
small, rural community in a smaller, rural State, the
opportunities for recycling kind of ebb and flow. Economically,
it hasn't been a winner for our counties, or our States, or our
cities.
I think this is the point, is to try to get it out into the
rest of the country so it can be more effective. And I look
forward to that, and I think it is a good start.
I also would like to thank Senators Heinrich and Blunt for,
they are calling it RAWA, the Wildlife Bill. It has been
something that has been in the making, according to Senator
Heinrich, for 20 years. It hasn't been easy, I will say that,
to try to muscle this one through Committee. But I think we do
need to look at the pay for, again, as the Committee Chairman
mentioned in his opening remarks.
So with that, that is a synopsis of my opening statement.
Senator Carper. Thank you for that synopsis.
Senator Whitehouse, please.
Senator Whitehouse. I would be delighted to join Senator
Capito in appreciation for Senator Blunt and Senator Heinrich
on the Wildlife Bill. I think they put a lot of work into it.
It is a very, very good bill. I am an enthusiastic supporter of
it.
But as we look down the panel here at the oceans' State
population, particularly the Ocean State population, I look
forward to the day when we put the same effort into
conservation, species protection, for oceans and coasts that we
put into uplands and freshwater. As you know, I think we should
rename the Land and Water Conservation Fund the Upland and
Freshwater Conservation Fund to more accurately reflect what it
actually does.
We are continuing to try to develop the Oceans and Coasts
Fund as a parallel, a coastal and oceans parallel, to the Land
and Water Conservation Fund. I enthusiastically support
Martin's bill and Roy's bill. And I think it is really, really
good. But there is a part of me that wishes it covered the
creatures of the sea and the coasts as well.
Senator Capito. Could I ask a question of you, of the bill?
So this is going to go to the State organizations. Could your
State not use some of this money for that very purpose?
Senator Whitehouse. I think we may be able to. But the
focus of the bill and the population, the species to which it
was directed are terrestrial species. And it gets a little bit
more complicated when you are dealing with fisheries that are
moving about the way they are moving about now, because of the
warming of the seas.
So as I said, I support this bill and we will try to use it
to be as helpful as we can in my home State. But there is a
persistent lean in a lot of these conservation programs toward
upland and freshwater and away from coasts.
Senator Capito. Understood. I just was thinking.
Senator Cardin. Would my colleague yield?
Senator Capito. Yes, go ahead.
Senator Cardin. Thank you.
I agree completely with Senator Whitehouse on this issue.
That is why I have an amendment that is pending in regard to
the coastal programs. I support this bill, and I compliment the
Chair and Ranking Member for working out the issues so we can
move this bill forward. But this bill leaves out an essential
part of habitat restoration, and that deals with the coastal
areas.
In June of last year, I filed bipartisan legislation with
Senator Graham that deals with habitat restoration along the
coastal communities. It has been in our Committee now for
almost a year. We don't have that many markups on legislation.
So we will have a chance during the discussion of the
amendment process as to whether we can include that in this
legislation. Because I do think it balances the underlying bill
for the coastal communities.
I strongly support this bill. When you look at the way that
the State of Maryland comes out percentage-wise, it is not as
high as we do in many other programs. And I support this. I
recognize it is based upon the factors that are not as
favorable to the State of Maryland.
To answer the Ranking Member's question directly, it is
very challenging to use these funds for coastal habitat
restoration. That is why we filed the separate legislation,
which by the way is existing policy. We have a program today on
coastal restoration. It is a voluntary program in which public
and private sectors can get technical assistance from the
Federal Government. It has been in existence since 1985. And
the legislation that Senator Graham and I authored codifies
that program and provides an authorized level.
So I think it complements the underlying bill and provides
a better balance among all the States dealing with habitat
restoration.
Senator Carper. All right, I think we are ready to roll. I
want to thank everybody for staying so we can get this show on
the road.
Next, I want to call up Presidential Nomination 1555, David
Uhlmann of Michigan to be Assistant Administrator for
Enforcement and Compliance Assurance of the Environmental
Protection Agency. I move to approve and report the nomination
favorably to the Senate.
Is there a second?
Senator Cardin. Second.
Senator Carper. It has been moved and seconded.
The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Cramer. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Kelly. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Merkley. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Sanders. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Stabenow. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Aye.
The Clerk. Chairman, the ayes are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Carper. All right.
Next, I want to call up the Presidential Nomination 1556 of
Carlton Waterhouse of Virginia to be Assistant Administrator
for Land and Emergency Management of the Environmental
Protection Agency. I move to approve and report the nomination
favorably to the Senate.
Is there a second?
Senator Cardin. Second.
Senator Carper. Thank you very much.
The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Kelly. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Merkley. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Sanders. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Stabenow. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Aye.
The Clerk. Chairman, the ayes are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Carper. All right. That conclude this morning's
Committee votes. My thanks to everybody for helping us get this
far. We will reconvene here at noon. Thanks very much.
[Whereupon, at 10:26 a.m., the Committee was recessed, to
reconvene at 12 p.m. the same day.]
[12:06 p.m.]
Senator Carper. I call our business meeting back to order.
I would like to call up S. 2372, the Recovering America's
Wildlife Act of 2021. By agreement with the Ranking Member, the
Carper Substitute Amendment No. 1 to S. 2372 is adopted and
considered to be original text for purpose of amendments.
We will now move to consider amendments. Senator Cardin is
delayed just a little bit, and I understand Senator Cramer has
an amendment, as does Senator Lummis, and I think after that
Senator Sullivan.
Senator Cramer has an amendment, and you are recognized to
offer Cramer Amendment No. 4.
Senator Cramer. Thank you, Chair.
Yes, I call up Cramer No. 4. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
having this markup.
Before I state what my amendment does, I really want to
take the opportunity to provide some background on the enormous
frustration that the people of North Dakota have had with the
Fish and Wildlife Service. Put simply, the Fish and Wildlife
Service is the textbook example of an intransigent bureaucracy
which is more interested in its own self-interests than the
interests of the citizens of this country. Frankly, more
interested in their self-interests than they are in their
mission.
Since I came to Congress in 2013, I have heard, not from a
few, not from dozens, literally hundreds, hundreds of
landowners in North Dakota who have had nothing but bad
experiences with the Fish and Wildlife Service under every type
of Administration. Their experiences have been disastrous. They
have had their private property rights trampled on, their
personal rights trampled on. They have had their personal
safety trampled on by gun toting bulletproof vest wearing SWAT
teams. They are really biologists pretending to be tough guys.
And their livelihoods, and in some cases are literally driven
to bankruptcy by zealots in the Fish and Wildlife Service.
In other words, I have very little faith in the Fish and
Wildlife Service. In an attempt to work with them, I have voted
for Republicans and Democrats in the Department of Interior to
include Fish and Wildlife Service directors and under
secretaries and deputy secretaries. So this brings us today to
this bill.
This Recovering America's Wildlife Act is a bill that I was
an original co-sponsor of, along with 16 Democrats and 15 other
Republicans, I got on this bill. Because it sent funding to
State, I emphasize State, fish and wildlife agencies to
proactively, and I stress proactively, to address and to keep
species off, I stress off, the Endangered Species Act list. It
should be the goal of every conservationist in the world.
Instead, we see from our Federal bureaucracy and some of
their stakeholders this desire to keep critters on the
Endangered Species List. I have never understood that.
So when Senators Blunt and Heinrich brought this to me, I
said, this makes sense. It emphasizes what States can do. They
are more responsive to their constituents, more nimble,
frankly, they are more attuned to the situation in front of
them.
Instead, and this, Mr. Chairman, is why I voted no on the
substitute that creates the bill that is in front of us, it
reduces the money going to States, and instead shifts it over
to the very people who say, if you just give us more money, we
can do better for you. Just give us more money, and we can
respond in a faster way.
Forgive my skepticism and the skepticism of the people of
North Dakota, but I am so tired of bureaucrats who say, if you
just give us more, we could help the landowners more. I don't
care how fast they do it or how slowly they do it, the outcome
is never right. I have yet to have an appeal, for example, on a
waterfall production area appeal, ever go the landowner's way.
Not under the previous Administration, in fact, under this
Administration literally dozens of appeals have never been
acted on. In fact, a letter sent by farmers over a year ago to
the Director has never even been returned has never been
responded to.
So I don't see how giving them more money to not work helps
my landowners.
With that, again I want to applaud Senators Heinrich and
Blunt and the people who got on this bill and made it a very,
very good bill before today. But this is not that bill.
So my amendment is simple. It simply strips the substitute,
returns the bill to its original form, which is what I and many
others on the Committee signed onto. I urge my colleagues to
join me in supporting my amendment to remove the substitute,
return the bill to its evenly bipartisan form.
With that, I yield, and thank you.
Senator Carper. Thank you.
Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank Senator Cramer for his amendment. As we
know, and you know, Chairman, we have been talking a lot about
this bill and the agreement that we reached on today's
substitute was difficult, but it was necessary so we could
bring this bipartisan bill before this Committee.
However, as I have stated publicly in the past, I support
the bill as introduced, as Senator Cramer described, the first
one that was introduced by Senators Heinrich and Blunt. For
that reason, I will be supporting Senator Cramer's amendment.
Senator Carper. Anyone else on Senator Cramer's Amendment
No. 4? Anyone else?
All right. I now move to adopt Cramer Amendment No. 4 to S.
2372.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. Second.
Senator Carper. Thank you.
The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Cramer. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Carper. Mr. Kelly, no, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Lummis. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, the ayes are 9, the nays are 11.
Senator Carper. The ayes are 9, and the nays are 11. The
amendment is not agreed to.
I understand that Senator Lummis has an amendment she would
like to offer.
I just want to say thanks very much to you for your work
with us to make it to the finish line here today. Thank you so
much.
Senator Lummis. My pleasure, Mr. Chairman, thank you.
I call up my amendment Lummis No. 1. It is very
straightforward. It requires any data used by Federal agencies
for Endangered Species Act determinations to be shared with
States affected by that determination. That is it.
As we have heard in testimony from both Democrats and
Republican witnesses in previous hearings, ESA listing
decisions have enormous impacts on communities, from some who
love recreating on public lands to those who ranch it or farm
it, to the kind of people that Senator Cramer heard from in
North Dakota when he discussed his last amendment. These
decisions literally affect lives and livelihoods, especially
for those of us in the West.
If members of this Committee are willing to trust States
with billions of dollars in additional conservation funding in
perpetuity, as the sponsors and supporters of RAWA indicate
they are, then we should be able to trust States with the data
that Federal agencies have used in making listing
determinations. I trust Governor Carper as much as I trust
Senator Carper.
[Laughter.]
Senator Lummis. This amendment is about transparency and
about good government. I would ask for my colleagues on both
sides of the aisle to support this. It doesn't matter when this
information is provided, and this proprietary nature of the
data argument just doesn't wash when we are spending this much
money on decisions and we are trusting these States to manage
to a standard that they are not even allowed to look at.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask for a recorded vote.
Senator Carper. All right, you will get one.
Senator Capito.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank
Senator Lummis for her good government transparency amendment.
I will be in support of it. I think she makes a great case that
these decisions we are making have huge impacts, and why
wouldn't we share the data with our State partners? So I am
voting in favor of the Lummis amendment.
Senator Carper. All right, thank you.
Does any other Senator care to be recognized on Lummis No.
1? Anyone else?
All right. If not, I now move to adopt Lummis Amendment No.
1 to S. 2372.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. Second.
Senator Carper. The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Cramer. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Carper. Duckworth votes no, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. Ernst is yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Lummis. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. No.
The Clerk. Chairman, the yeas are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Carper. The yeas are 10, the nays are 10. The
amendment is defeated. Thank you again very much.
Senator Cardin, then Senator Sullivan, we will go to you
next. Senator Cardin has an amendment he would like to offer,
Cardin Amendment No. 1.
Senator Cardin. I appreciate that my Republican friends are
here to listen to it. I am sorry my Democratic friends are not.
I am a little bit perplexed as to this amendment having
been even controversial. It codifies an existing program so it
takes on the turf of the Congress rather than the executive
branch. It is our responsibility to do this. It has been in
existence since 1985. There are no substantive changes in
regard to how the program operates. And it provides balance
between how the underlying bill operates and coastal habitat
restoration.
It is a voluntary program. There is no land use issue here
as far as private ownership is concerned. So we don't get
involved in any of our traditional controversial areas.
That is why the bill that I introduced with Senator Graham,
a bipartisan bill, was introduced in June of last year. I
recognize that we need to be able to act on bills in this
Committee. This Wildlife Bill has been involved, and we have
had discussions about it.
But those of us who live in coastal areas are entitled to
have our considerations as well. We all want to work in a
cooperative way. But I haven't heard one reason why we
shouldn't move this bill forward. We have had no hearings in
the Committee. I don't know why; the House has had hearings on
it; the Senate has not had hearings on it.
So quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, I am frustrated as to why
we have not been able to get the same type of considerations on
coastal habitat we have as we have on the underlying bill. So
that is the reason this amendment is being offered. As I said,
it is bipartisan. I would just like to get an explanation from
the Committee why this would be opposed.
Senator Carper. Do other Senators care to be recognized on
this amendment? If not, I now move to adopt Cardin Amendment
No. 1 to S. 2372.
Senator Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Senator Cardin,
does this program already exist?
Senator Cardin. Yes, it does.
Senator Sullivan. So what does it do in addition to it
already existing?
Senator Cardin. Statutory----
Senator Sullivan. You know, I am always, when States are
trying to get a little help, I am open ears, right, I am always
trying to get a little help for my State, and you will see that
in a minute.
Senator Cardin. I appreciate the question. It provides a
statutory base but it also provides an authorized level.
Senator Sullivan. You mean on funding.
Senator Cardin. On funding. Right now, there is no
authorized level. The current appropriation, I think it is $18
million that is currently being spent in this program. We have
an authorized level starting at $20 million, going up to $25
million. So that would be new authorization. There is no
authorization today.
And the actual appropriation is $18 million today.
Senator Sullivan. So it is plussing up the----
Senator Cardin. No, there is no appropriation here. It is
just an authorized level.
Senator Sullivan. Right. So it is authorizing more for an
existing program?
Senator Cardin. That is correct. A program that is
currently being, is operative, but is not under statutory
authority.
Senator Sullivan. OK.
Senator Cardin. The appropriators must have done it at some
point over the years. We are taking on our Committee's
jurisdiction here by putting it in the Code.
Senator Sullivan. Is there--I mean, I am just throwing this
out, and I don't want to get in front of the Ranking Member's--
is there interest in trying to--I am just trying to understand
this. I get nervous about easements and things in my State. But
if your State wants that, I am just----
Senator Cardin. It is a totally voluntary program. So it
has to be initiated by the owner, whether it is public or
private. This is strictly a voluntary program, and it is
technical support for those who want to move in this direction
to deal with habitat on coastal areas.
Senator Capito [presiding]. Would you like for me to weigh
in here?
Senator Sullivan. Yes.
Senator Capito. I am going to oppose this amendment, not
because I oppose the coastal program. I heard Senator Cardin
discuss this in the earlier meeting along with Senator
Whitehouse. And I did raise the question, which I think they
gave me a good answer to, as to whether the existing bill could
help with some of the coastal wildlife. It seems like it us not
flexible enough to really use that for the State Fish and
Wildlife folks, which is the crux of this.
But we struck--it was difficult to get to where we are
right now in trying to negotiate all the different things. So I
would like to work with you and Senator Graham to have a
hearing and bring this before the Committee and discuss it, so
we could all appreciate where it is falling short because it
hasn't been reauthorized. To me, that would be the preferred
route.
Senator Sullivan. I would support that, too, to work with
you, in really good faith.
Senator Cardin. Our problem is that--I regret we haven't
had a hearing on it. I think we should have had a hearing. We
introduced it earlier in this Congress.
The challenge is that if the underlying bill becomes the
only vehicle we have available, the absence of action on our
Committee makes it virtually difficult, because it will
probably end up in some omnibus bill along the way, and the
fact that we have no Committee action on it means that it will
be left by the side.
That is my frustration, Mr. Chairman. I don't disagree with
the Ranking Member or the Senator from Alaska. We should have
those discussions. I am more than happy. That is why we
introduced it as current practice rather than looking at
changes, because we knew that we hadn't had that discussion. I
would welcome having that discussion.
But my concern is that if this Committee takes a pass on it
at this particular moment, the odds are we will not get back to
it in this Congress.
Senator Sullivan. Could we delay the vote on the underlying
bill that it would be attached to so that you don't have that
problem?
Senator Cardin. That is fine with me, if we have the
Chairman and Ranking Member willing to do that. They have to
sign off on any opportunity for this bill to move forward. If I
have their assurances, I would be fine with that.
Senator Carper [presiding]. For now, I am just going to
suggest we go ahead and vote. If the votes are there, fine, if
they are not, what you both, the Ranking Member and Senator
Sullivan suggested, for us to re-engage, and maybe with the
scheduling of a hearing in a timely manner. But for now, I
would like for us to go ahead and vote.
With that, does any other Senator want to be recognized?
All right, if not, then the Clerk will call the roll on
Cardin Amendment No. 1 to S. 2372.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Cardin. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. No, for now. But I will work with you,
Ben.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Cardin. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Aye.
The Clerk. Chairman, the yeas are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Capito [presiding]. OK, the amendment fails. And we
are asking for additional amendments.
Does anybody have an amendment?
Senator Sullivan.
Senator Sullivan. Yes, Madam Chair. I have three
amendments. I will try to be brief. I would like to call up
Sullivan No. 1. This is to make additional Federal land
available for selection under the Alaska Native Vietnam Era
Veterans Allotment Act.
Madam Chair, dating back to the early 20th century, there
were various Federal programs that existed to grant Alaska
Natives parcels of land in Alaska, up to 160 acres. That dated
back to 1909.
In 1971, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act
extinguished the ability of Alaska Natives to select these land
allotments. However, thousands of Alaska Natives served their
country during the Vietnam era, and they missed this deadline.
So here you have indigenous people in my State serving in a war
that a lot of American men were trying to avoid, and they
missed the deadline to apply for these allotments. Total
injustice.
In 2019, we passed the Dingle Act, bipartisan, that
included my bill, the Alaska Native Vietnam Era Veterans Lands
Allotment Act. That just said, if you were serving in the
military during the Vietnam era, you have a chance to apply for
an allotment which you missed because you were serving your
country in the military.
This program allows approximately 2,800 Alaska Natives, by
the way, who serve at higher rates in the military than any
other ethnic group in the country, to apply for congressionally
promised Native allotments that they missed the opportunity to
do so because they were serving and fighting in the jungles of
Vietnam. Pretty strong equity issues.
These land selections were largely limited to BLM but the
Dingle Act, which passed, said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
would study whether to make lands available for this program
also. Fish and Wildlife Service, in accordance with the law,
issued a study and recommended additional acreage to be
included in the lands available from which Alaska Native
Vietnam era veterans could choose. All my bill does is take
what Fish and Wildlife Service said, said here is the
additional land that you can choose from.
There is a lot of talk in this Committee and this Senate
about taking care of our veterans. This is 100 percent taking
care of our veterans. There is a lot of talk, particularly my
friends on the other side of the aisle, about racial equity,
environmental justice, racial justice. This is 100 percent
racial equity. These were men and women who are indigenous
people serving in Vietnam, and when they came home they not
only got spit on because they were Vietnam veterans, not only
got discriminated against because they are Alaska Native, but
they were then told, you can't apply for your allotment, which
you have been able to do for 100 years.
All we are trying to do is fix it. If you believe in
supporting our vets and you believe in racial equity, this
should be a unanimous vote, Madam Chair.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. I plan to
support your amendment. At this point, because we are waiting
for people to come back from a vote, I will suspend the vote on
this, and you can go to your next amendment, make the case for
that.
Senator Sullivan. OK, Madam Chair. This is another one, if
you believe in racial equity, this is simple, too. This is
Sullivan No. 2 to clarify treatment of authentic Alaska Native
articles of handicrafts containing non-edible migratory bird
parts under the Migratory Treaty Bird Act.
So let me just explain this one. For thousands of years,
inclusion of bones, feathers, and non-edible parts in
traditional handicrafts from Alaska Native people was
commonplace in Alaska Native cultures. However, in light of a
number of years ago, when widely celebrated Tlingit artists
were cited by Fish and Wildlife Service for including feathers
in a piece offered for sale, somebody actually got fined for
that in Alaska.
The result was the Alaska Federation of Natives passed a
resolution saying, we need a legislative fix to this problem.
We are not going to eat the birds, but we can use their
feathers for handicrafts.
Now, why does that matter? In certain Alaska Native
villages, the men and women who create handicrafts are the No.
1 economic drivers of these communities. Because they can sell
their handicrafts to tourists and things like this.
All this amendment does, it would recognize the legitimate
subsistencies of Alaska Natives and allow the sale of
handicrafts that include non-edible migratory bird parts. That
is it.
Handicraft sales are often small but important parts of the
economic activity for our Native villages. Other laws, such as
the Marine Mammal Protection Act, include similar subsistence
exemptions for other species, and this amendment seeks to apply
equal treatment for this subset of the Alaska Native artistic
community.
The amendment is unanimously supported by the Alaska Native
members from the Migratory Bird Co-Management Council, the
Alaska Federation of Natives. Again, racial equity for
disadvantaged communities. This is a no brainer. We hope that
we can pass that as well.
Senator Capito. Again, I would ask my colleagues to support
this amendment. It is an interesting amendment, really, when
you think about the culture and the economic opportunities that
that brings.
So I would hope that we can have a successful vote on that.
But we are going to suspend the vote on that and let you go to
No. 3.
Senator Sullivan. Sullivan No. 3, thank you, Madam Chair.
This is a simple amendment. It just makes the sub-account here
subject to appropriations. We recognize this is important
legislation that we are debating, protecting, conserving
America's countless species of plants, wildlife as a knowable
cause. We care about it back home in Alaska.
However, funding decisions for this cause should be made on
an annualized basis the way other appropriations bills are.
Singling out this bill for permanent funding I don't think
makes sense.
This bill is not the answer to a broken Endangered Species
Act problem. The bill turns a blind eye to the fact that States
and Federal agencies are at the mercy of serial litigants who
abuse the ESA. This is a huge problem in my State. This bill
does not propose a realistic pay for, $1.3 billion on new
annual mandatory spending is provided by this bill. This bill
should go through the normal appropriations process that most
every other bill in the U.S. Senate goes through. That is what
my amendment would do.
Senator Capito. Thank you, Senator Sullivan. I again will
urge my colleagues to vote yes on this amendment. I am on the
Appropriations Committee, and I think it is right and proper
that we know that this bill has some, when we get the score
back, it is going to have some issues in terms of the pay for.
So I think this is the responsible way to go.
So if we can suspend right now, we are going to see how we
go forward here.
[Pause.]
The Committee stands in recess until 1:30 in the
President's Room.
[Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the Committee was recessed, to
reconvene the same day at 1:30 where we will meet in the
President's Room.]
[1:30 p.m.]
Senator Carper [presiding]. I now move that we adopt the
Sullivan Amendment No. 1 to S. 2372.
The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, the yeas are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Carper. The yeas are 10, the nays are 10, and the
amendment fails.
I now move to adopt Sullivan Amendment No. 2 to S. 2372.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. Second.
Senator Carper. The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, the yeas are 10, the nays are 10.
Senator Carper. The yeas are 10, and the nays are 10. The
amendment fails.
Now I move to adopt Sullivan Amendment No. 3 to S. 2372.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. Second.
Senator Carper. The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Carper. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Whitehouse. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, the yeas are 9, the nays are 11.
Senator Carper. The yeas are 9, the nays are 11. The
amendment has failed.
[Simultaneous conversations.]
Senator Carper. I now move that the Committee report S.
2372, the Recovering America's Wildlife Act of 2021, as
amended.
Is there a second?
Senator Capito. Second.
Senator Carper. The Clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Boozman.
Senator Boozman. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Capito.
Senator Capito. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cardin.
Senator Cardin. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cramer.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Duckworth.
Senator Duckworth. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Ernst.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Graham.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Inhofe.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Kelly.
Senator Kelly. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Lummis.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Markey.
Senator Markey. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Merkley.
Senator Carper. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Padilla.
Senator Padilla. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sanders.
Senator Carper. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Shelby.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Stabenow.
Senator Stabenow. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Capito. No, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Whitehouse.
Senator Carper. Aye, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Wicker.
Senator Capito. Yes, by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Aye.
The Clerk. Chairman, the yeas are 15, the nays are 5.
Senator Carper. Would anyone like to be recorded live?
Senator Capito. Senator Lummis, no.
The Clerk. Thank you. The yeas are 15, the nays are 5.
Senator Carper. The yeas are 15 and the nays are 5; the
bill is approved as amended, and the bill passes.
I think that is it. It is a wrap. Thanks for coming.
[Whereupon, at 1:46 p.m., the business meeting was
adjourned.]
[The referenced legislation follows:]
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