[Senate Hearing 117-209]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S. Hrg. 117-209

                REALIZING THE VISION OF PARREN MITCHELL_
                       UNTAPPING THE POTENTIAL OF
                     MINORITY AND WOMEN CONTRACTING

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                          AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                 OF THE

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 19, 2021

                               __________

    Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
    
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
46-998 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                              ----------                              
                 BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland, Chairman
                  RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Ranking Member
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           MARCO RUBIO, Florida
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire        JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           JONI ERNST, Iowa
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              TODD YOUNG, Indiana
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
                 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
              William Henderson, Republican Staff Director
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Maryland.     1

                               Witnesses

Caldas, Ms. Rosa Q., President and CEO, ZemiTek, LLC, Bethesda, 
  MD.............................................................     4
Rubio, Mr. Euripides ``Ruby'', President and CEO, Ops Tech 
  Alliance, LLC, Bowie, MD.......................................    11

          Alphabetical Listing and Appendix Material Submitted

Caldas, Ms. Rosa Q.
    Testimony....................................................     4
    Prepared statement...........................................     6
    Responses to questions submitted by Senators Hirono and Young    36
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L.
    Opening statement............................................     1
National Urban League
    Letter dated May 19, 2021....................................    32
Rubio, Mr. Euripides ``Ruby''
    Testimony....................................................    11
    Prepared statement...........................................    13
    Responses to questions submitted by Senators Hirono and Young    41

 
                     REALIZING THE VISION OF PARREN MITCHELL--
            UNTAPPING THE POTENTIAL OF MINORITY AND WOMEN CONTRACTING

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, 2021

                      United States Senate,
                        Committee on Small Business
                                      and Entrepreneurship,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in 
Room 301, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Ben Cardin, 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Cardin, Shaheen, Hirono, Rosen, 
Hickenlooper, Scott, Young, Hawley, and Marshall.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, CHAIRMAN, A U.S. 
                     SENATOR FROM MARYLAND

    Chairman Cardin. Good afternoon and welcome to this 
committee hearing of the Small Business and Entrepreneurship 
Committee. I want to thank all of you for joining on this 
important and timely hearing on the role the Federal Government 
must play in supporting minority and women-owned businesses 
that supply our government with goods and services.
    The title of today's hearing respects my late friend and 
mentor, Congressman Parren J. Mitchell. Congressman Mitchell 
was the first African American elected to Congress from the 
State of Maryland. He rose to become chairman of the Small 
Business Committee in the House of Representatives. He advanced 
opportunities for minority small businesses, including the 
first minority set-aside passed by Congress.
    In addition to being the first African American elected to 
the U.S. Congress from Maryland, Congressman Mitchell also 
created the first set-aside minority program. It was created in 
1977 when he successfully attached an amendment to a $4 billion 
public works bill that required State and local government to 
set aside 10 percent of the funds for minority-owned 
businesses.
    Congressman Mitchell called the amendment his proudest 
congressional accomplishment. Congressman Mitchell understood 
that any plan to strengthen the wealth of America must include 
entrepreneurship, and that the U.S. Federal Government, the 
largest purchaser of goods and services in the world, has an 
important role to play in this effort by ensuring that small 
businesses owned by members of historically disadvantaged 
communities, including minorities and women, are able to do 
business with government agencies.
    This hearing is timely because President Biden's American 
Jobs Plan proposes a once-in-a-generation investment in our 
Nation's infrastructure across all types. Addressing equity for 
underserved and disadvantaged communities must be a focus in 
all of these endeavors.
    So today we will focus on the programs within SBA that help 
level the playing field for minority- and women-owned 
businesses, including the 8(a) Business Development Program and 
the Woman-Owned Small Business Program. The motivation behind 
my commitment to ensuring that the Federal Government is 
providing contracting opportunities for minority- and women-
owned businesses is twofold. First, I want to ensure that the 
Federal Government is providing small businesses with the 
opportunity to compete for Federal contracts on a level playing 
field with large corporations. And secondly, Federal 
contracting is a vital part of the economy in my home State of 
Maryland, where Federal Government contracting spending 
accounts for 8 percent of our annual GDP and supports thousands 
of jobs to help families into the middle class.
    Congress passed the Small Business Act to ensure the 
preservation and expansion of a level playing field for small 
businesses because by doing so it is vital to the security of 
this Nation. The COVID-19 pandemic has shown us all how true 
these words are. In the past year, the Small Business 
Administration has delivered more than $1 trillion in aide to 
our Nation's smallest businesses in order to prevent the dire 
economic consequences. I am proud that my amendment to extend 
the nine-year limit for participation in the 8(a) program to 10 
years was included in the Fiscal Year 2021 NDAA bill. That 
measure will provide small businesses in the program during the 
pandemic with an additional year of eligibility.
    Small businesses are where innovation happens in our 
economy, and this committee has discussed many times in the 
past years that we must ensure we provide our small businesses 
with the support they need to compete in the global 
marketplace. In 1997, Congress set goals for the Federal 
Government to spend 23 percent of all contracting dollars with 
small businesses. In Fiscal Year 2019, the Small Business 
Federal Procurement Scorecard showed that the Federal 
Government exceeded its small business contracting goals during 
that fiscal year, awarding 26.5 percent of all Federal 
contracts to small businesses.
    The total value of the contracts was $132.9 billion, 
representing a 10 percent increase from the previous fiscal 
year. The Scorecard showed that the Federal Government exceeded 
its goals in three of the four associated economic categories, 
including women-owned small businesses, the second time in the 
history of the Scorecard that the Federal Government hit its 5 
percent goal for that program.
    While I'm pleased that the Federal agencies are meeting 
most of their contracting goals, I have seen recent concerning 
data showing that we are shrinking the number of contractors 
that are participating in the program. A recent report by 
Bloomberg Government found that the number of Federal 
contractors working on unclassified contracts is at a 10-year 
low despite a steady rise in Federal Government contracting 
spending over the same period of time. So there are less 
businesses participating even though we have a growth in small 
businesses.
    In Fiscal Year 2016, for example, more than 120,000 small 
businesses contracted with the Federal Government, but in 
Fiscal Year 2019 that number had dropped to under 103,000 small 
businesses. That means that while contracts are getting bigger 
and bigger, we are creating an insular club where fewer and 
fewer businesses successfully compete for government contracts, 
creating a less competitive marketplace in the process.
    Predictably, our Nation's small businesses are bearing the 
brunt of the decline. According to the report, the Federal 
Government did business with 32 percent less small vendors in 
Fiscal Year 2018 than it did in Fiscal Year 2009. For a 
comparison, the number of large vendors fell by only 4 percent.
    So today I am looking forward to hearing from our 
witnesses. They're both Maryland entrepreneurs whose businesses 
have benefited from the 8(a) and women-owned small business 
program.
    Rosa Caldas is President and Chief Executive Officer of 
ZemiTek, an 8(a) and woman-owned certified small business 
headquartered in Bethesda, Maryland; and Euripides ``Ruby'' 
Rubio is President and Chief Executive Officer of Ops Tech 
Alliance, an 8(a) and service disabled veteran-owned small 
business, certified, headquartered also in Bethesda. Bethesda 
is getting very well represented here today.
    Mr. Rubio is also a graduate from the Bowie Business 
Innovation Center 8(a) Accelerator and the Veterans Institute 
for Procurement program, which are both successful programs in 
Maryland that can serve as a model for the Nation as we seek to 
support small business contractors.
    I do want to acknowledge the work of Barbara Ashe with 
regards to the VIP program because it's a unique program. It 
was created under the sponsorship of the Montgomery County 
Chamber of Commerce. That's Montgomery County, Maryland. It was 
a national program to help veteran small businesses, and it's 
been very successful, helping over 1,600 veteran-owned small 
businesses to date. One of those companies is represented by 
one of our witnesses today.
    So I'm also looking forward to learning from Ms. Caldas and 
Mr. Rubio about what aspects of the 8(a) and the woman-owned 
small business programs are working well, as well as the areas 
we need to improve for more small businesses to successfully 
compete for Federal contracts.
    President Biden's American Jobs Plan seeks to invest more 
than $2 trillion in our Nation's infrastructure, so now is the 
time to improve the 8(a) and woman-owned small business 
programs so woman- and minority-owned small businesses have the 
support they need to participate in a once-in-a-generation 
opportunity.
    I know that Senator Paul, the ranking Republican member, 
will be joining us shortly. He asked us to proceed with the 
witnesses, so we'll do exactly that. We'll go in the order in 
which I first acknowledged our witnesses.
    So, Ms. Caldas, we'll start with you.

 STATEMENT OF ROSA Q. CALDAS, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ZEMITEK, LLC, 
                          BETHESDA, MD

    Ms. Caldas. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Chairman 
Cardin, we don't have here Ranking Member Paul, and members of 
the committee. It is an honor to meet you and to be invited to 
speak at this committee.
    My name is Rosa Caldas. I am the President and CEO of 
ZemiTek, an 8(a) and woman-owned small business located in 
Bethesda, Maryland. Thank you for the opportunity to speak at 
today's hearing.
    My experience supporting the Federal Government dates back 
to 1995, when I began managing projects for Federal 
contractors. I founded ZemiTek in 2007 because I felt I could 
do a better job supporting the government and providing a 
better and more nurturing environment for my employees.
    In 2008, ZemiTek was accepted as part of the Montgomery 
County Business Innovation Center, and I briefly entered the 
HUBZone program. During our first eight years, most of our work 
was through small purchase orders and subcontract work. During 
this period, we experienced difficulties in gaining access to 
funding, limiting our ability to grow.
    In 2015, we won our first significant prime contract award 
by leveraging a partnership with a more experienced large 
business. In 2017, we secured our GSA schedules, entered the 
SBA Mentor-Protege program, and formed a joint venture with our 
mentor. We obtained a GSA Best-in-Class OASIS schedule in 2020 
through our joint venture. We now have over 70 employees, as 
well as many consultants.
    The small business set-aside programs are critical for the 
development of small businesses, for economic development, and 
for providing innovation and flexibility to the Federal 
Government buyers. We sincerely believe the small business 
contracting goals are due for upward revision.
    The Federal Government small business goals have not been 
increased in over 24 years, and the WSB goal has not been 
increased since its inception.
    Goals are important and effective in keeping the Federal 
Government accountable. We are grateful for ZemiTek's 
opportunity to participate in the 8(a) program. It is important 
for potential participants to make sure they fully understand 
the Federal contracting landscape to fully benefit from the 
limited timeframe of the program. ZemiTek made a conscious 
decision to delay submitting our application until we were 
ready.
    The 8(a) program does have some challenges. For example, 
the sole source cap is long overdue for an increase. It needs 
to be adjusted for the increasing average size of contracts. 
The maximum total contract value for a sole-source 8(a) award 
is $4 million. Making it an annual cap of $4 million will be 
preferable. But at the very least, the cap should be doubled.
    More resources need to be provided to the SBA, its three 
offices. Business Opportunity especially carries an 
overwhelming workload and often focuses more on compliance 
rather than business development. SBA district offices could 
benefit from an increase in staffing, as well as more 
consistent training.
    We are very grateful to the Small Business Committee in 
allowing for a one-year extension in the 8(a) program. Twenty-
twenty was a challenging year for all of us, as well as for 
small businesses. Normal business development, client 
engagement, and networking opportunities were reduced, and 
growth was difficult. We support the Mentor-Protege program and 
have benefited from participation. These formalized 
relationships allow us to benefit from our mentor's guidance 
and improve our ability to pursue prime contracts. Proteges are 
limited to two mentors for the company, and we believe that 
allowing more than two mentors will help small businesses 
maximize their learning opportunities prior to graduation.
    Category management poses serious and significant 
challenges for the small business community. Fewer and fewer 
requirements are being issued as a stand-alone contract, 
meaning fewer opportunities for small businesses. Consolidation 
and bundling of simple requirements and placing them on BICs 
further erodes the competitiveness of small businesses, as they 
often lack the capability to bid on the size and complex nature 
of the consolidated contract.
    With respect to the WSB program, we have found the 
certification process to be cumbersome, and we recommend 
increasing resources to the SBA to ensure that they are able to 
successfully manage the certification process. We also 
recommend implementing reciprocity between the 8(a) and WSB 
programs.
    Thank you so much for the opportunity to share my 
experience with you. I look forward to answering any questions 
you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Caldas follows:]
    
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    Chairman Cardin. Ms. Caldas, thank you very much for your 
testimony.
    We will now hear from Mr. Rubio from Bowie, Maryland, not 
Bethesda, Maryland. I want to correct the record to make sure 
the great city of Bowie--the mayor is going to be with me 
tomorrow--got the right credit for Bowie.
    Mr. Rubio?

 STATEMENT OF EURIPIDES ``RUBY'' RUBIO, PRESIDENT AND CEO, OPS 
                 TECH ALLIANCE, LLC, BOWIE, MD

    Mr. Rubio. Good afternoon, Chairman Cardin and 
distinguished members of the committee. My name is Euripides 
Rubio, and I am the President and CEO of Ops Tech Alliance--
OTA--a 100 percent Hispanic and service-disabled veteran-owned 
business located in Bowie, Maryland. As a minority and an 
advocate for service-disabled veterans in business, I thank you 
for the opportunity to contribute to the discussion of how we 
can best tap the incredible potential of our country's minority 
and women contractors.
    My company, OTA, was formed to bridge the gap between 
operations and technology. We provide training, cybersecurity 
products and services. With the increase of cyber threats to 
our Nation, OTA's background enabled us to consistently produce 
excellent results for our clients, and we're very proud of that 
fact.
    We also made the Inc. 5000 list for fastest growing 
companies the last three years in a row. So we are moving at a 
good pace.
    I grew up poor with a strong mother who got us out of the 
projects and kept us on track. She got me to college, but 
because of financial constraints I had to drop out. So I was 
that one guy who went to the Army recruiter. He offered me $50 
a month to jump out of planes, and I said ``Where do I sign?'' 
So I spent 23 years in the Army with a career in Intelligence 
and Special Operations.
    After my retirement I was eager to do something 
challenging, so in 2012 I registered OTA as a business. I 
invested all my retirement savings into this company. I even 
survived the 2013 government shutdown. But statistically, I was 
expected to fail.
    By 2014 I hired our first employee, and we got into our 
first contract. By the end of the year I was responsible for 
four families, not to mention my own. Our biggest problem was a 
delayed payment by large prime companies. Of course, my 
employees could not wait 45 to 60 days to get paid, nor my 
bills.
    The current law doesn't enforce oversight to ensure small 
businesses are receiving prompt payment within 15 days. Faster 
payment will not burden a large business, but it will make a 
world of difference for small companies.
    In 2015 we applied for the 8(a) program and got accepted, 
but I found that the reality was not what I expected. Our 
current clients were not familiar with the program, and there 
was a lack of awareness and result to use the 8(a), at least in 
my line of work. So I ended up in the same position where I 
started from.
    It wasn't until 2017 where we were searching for a business 
incubator, and that's how we connected with Lisa Smith from the 
Bowie Innovation Center. They provided us with many resources, 
but more importantly the Bowie BIC 8(a) Accelerator program, 
which included training, mentoring, and many resources to use 
the 8(a) more efficiently.
    In the same year we were accepted to the Veterans Institute 
Procurement, the VIP, which was another great program, managed 
by Barbara Ashe, where we received very valuable training and 
networking with veteran-owned companies.
    Without question, these two programs gave us a lot of 
insights in areas of business and client landscape that I 
couldn't find anywhere else.
    As a minority and a veteran-owned business, we have more 
grit and experience overcoming obstacles. However, the 
competitive landscape is extremely unpredictable. And, of 
course, I'm not even addressing the devastating effects that 
COVID-19 had on small businesses. If it weren't for the PPP 
loan, I would not be sitting here talking to you today.
    In conclusion, I believe the following key steps, if 
implemented by the committee, will have the greatest impact.
    First, increase and enforce the contracting goals of the 
Federal Government and large prime contractors for minority 
small businesses.
    Next, increase training for all government agencies on the 
actual process utilizing minority small businesses.
    Expand access and require minority businesses to graduate 
from programs like the Bowie BIC 8(a) Accelerator and VIP.
    Establish oversight to ensure that Federal agencies and 
prime contractors are paying minority small businesses within 
15 days.
    And lastly, change the protest process. Protests are 
devastating the procurement system and wasting money and 
opportunities for minority small businesses.
    Thank you, distinguished members of the committee, for your 
time and attention to these issues. Minorities and women are 
clearly in the spotlight now, and I recommend focus on these 
matters more than ever. I'm honored to be here to speak on 
their behalf, and I'm ready for any questions you might have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Rubio follows:]
    
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    Chairman Cardin. Let me thank both of you for your 
testimony, and let me make this observation.
    The American Jobs Plan is really a once-in-a-generation 
opportunity to make a significant investment in the 
infrastructure of our Nation. But we also have to make sure 
it's opportunities for all businesses to participate in that 
infrastructure. So we need to operate from the beginning with 
the opportunities for small businesses, particularly in the 
underserved communities, in the minority communities and women-
owned small businesses.
    That's one of the reasons for this hearing. You've made a 
lot of suggestions. We're going to be looking at those 
suggestions. We're in discussions with the Biden administration 
and with our House counterparts as to how we can ensure that 
the investment in infrastructure will be used to advance these 
goals, and I think you've given us a lot of good suggestions.
    I want to talk for just a moment about the Bowie 
Accelerator program. We're very proud of what they do at Bowie. 
It's one of the great examples, and it's been extremely 
helpful. The VIP program that Barbara Ashe heads is one that I 
brag about all the time. It started with the resources of the 
local Chamber of Commerce in Maryland, in Montgomery County. It 
became a national model because it served the national 
community of veterans, got a partnership with the Small 
Business Administration. We were pleased to promote that, and 
now it is truly the template for how we can provide services to 
veterans in our Nation.
    So we're proud of both of the programs that you all have 
referred to.
    I want to deal with raising the caps that you've talked 
about, so let me start with the sole source, because sole 
source is one of the great tools that allows for the contract 
really to be made with minority businesses and women-owned 
businesses.
    Today, the cap on a multi-year contract is about $900,000 
on sole source, which really takes you out of the prime 
contract area exclusively. So you deal with the abuses you're 
talking about on prompt payment and all the other challenges 
you have in dealing with prime contractors.
    So just elaborate a little bit more for me how important it 
is in reality, what types of contracts are we talking about 
that you all could qualify for under sole source if that cap 
was raised.
    Either one who wants to start.
    Mr. Rubio. Well, I can tell you, sir, Senator, that we 
missed opportunities because of that cap. Like Ms. Caldas 
mentioned, it should be increased even yearly, because when you 
look at those numbers and the opportunities that are out there, 
the numbers are not keeping up with inflation, with the 
economy. So it definitely should be increased. When you look at 
these numbers, they haven't changed in a long time, over 20 
years. So I think it's time.
    Chairman Cardin. And when the contracting agency is limited 
by the size, they can't put these contracts up for sole source 
even though they may be ideal for the sort of special attention 
that Congress intended.
    Ms. Caldas, do you want to add anything to that?
    Ms. Caldas. Yes. I'm just going to provide a couple of 
examples. We have received a couple of sole source 8(a) 
contracts. The limit was $4 million. And this is just to 
illustrate how important it is to increase the cap. One of our 
coding contracts is providing technical support services to 
USAID and the Mission in Haiti. Because of all the security 
problems they have had in that country, they have had to rely 
more and more on contractors to provide service support.
    We received the contract sole source award, and because of 
this situation, we started deploying and providing technical 
assistance and staff, and this contract is less than a year 
old, and they already have committed to around 80 percent of 
the ceiling of that contract. It takes time for the agencies to 
identify companies like us that have the technical expertise 
and have the knowledge to deliver those services. They 
establish, they award the contract, and then they get 
themselves in a situation where they are reaching the cap and 
the ceiling very quickly, and they don't have the flexibility 
to increase that ceiling.
    I think it's very obvious that whatever--the contracts that 
were $4 million so many years ago, you cannot buy the same 
amount of services as you do today. But the reason for the sole 
source allows for an easier expedited process to issue these 
contracts, and it is not very straightforward for the agencies 
to understand if they have any flexibility to increase it and 
what is the next step.
    So I just wanted to illustrate one of the examples. That is 
the type of services that we provide, and it would be 
beneficial for 8(a) companies, but also beneficial for the 
Federal Government buyers.
    Chairman Cardin. Let me ask one additional question, and 
that is that I was pleased, and you acknowledged in your 
testimony, that we extended the 8(a) program for an additional 
year as a result of COVID-19 in the NDAA bill. But I want to 
talk about graduating out of the 8(a) and your ability to 
compete once you have completed the number of years of 
eligibility.
    We had the 7(j) technical assistance that's supposed to be 
helping you transition off of the preference under the 8(a) 
program. Should we be looking at ways to strengthen the ability 
to deal with the transition off of 8(a)? Are there other issues 
that we should be looking at? Are there things that we can do 
to make it more resilient for small businesses that were 8(a) 
that no longer are?
    Ms. Caldas. Absolutely. Prior to forming my company, I 
supported a small business, mid-size businesses, and I was also 
an employee of large companies. The type of resources that 
large companies have to compete for work cannot even compare to 
what a small business can do. So what happens is many of our 
small business company owners start worrying about the 
situation where you go from being a small business to other 
than small. Other than small could be a company that just 
graduated from their NIC code. It is a very difficult 
environment where a lot of small businesses don't survive, or 
they start finding ways to stay small so they don't enter the 
``valley of death,'' like some companies mentioned, or they 
look for opportunities to be acquired because they know that 
they may not be able to compete in that environment.
    So there are several things that could be done. One of them 
is revising the size standard under NIC codes so a small 
business could take advantage of staying small a little bit 
longer while they strengthen their capabilities to graduate 
from that NIC code.
    Allowing more mentors in the Mentor-Protege. As I mentioned 
in my testimony, small businesses can only have two through the 
life of the company, when mentors, and most of them are large 
businesses, can have three Proteges at the same time. So 
allowing for more mentors also gives the opportunity for small 
businesses to grow and learn more through the advice of those 
companies.
    So there are many, many other options out there that should 
be considered. Training is always good. But at the end, when 
you finish the training, you need to find ways to have 
resources to compete in an environment where it's just very, 
very hard to compete.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you. I appreciate that.
    Senator Hawley and Senator Scott have passed on 
questioning, so we're up to Senator Marshall.
    Senator Marshall. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Chairman. 
Glad to be here, and welcome to our witnesses this afternoon as 
well.
    In today's hearing we're supposed to be talking about the 
HUBZone service, disabled and veteran-owned and woman-owned 
small business programs. Our staff and myself, we made a huge 
effort to reach out to our minority Chambers, to small business 
owners, small business wannabe owners in economically 
distressed communities, and I certainly have not solved the 
puzzle yet.
    And as I interviewed people and listened, two big issues 
remain, among others, two that I've identified: access to 
capital, and really financial literacy. So I want to talk about 
access to capital for a second.
    What advice would you be giving to me to give to future 
small business owners when it comes to accessing capital? And 
in particular, I want to know if you've had any experience with 
the CDFI, the Community Development Financial Institutions.
    I'll ask each of you first, and ladies first, Ms. Caldas, 
please.
    Ms. Caldas. Having access to capital is imperative. When we 
started and we reached out to one of the banks that we were 
working with, the first thing they tell you is we want you to 
be in business for two years. Then you go back and knock at the 
door, it's been two years and, oh, it just depends on how many 
contracts you have. When you have contracts, come back and show 
the bank, and the bank said, well, we want you to have multiple 
years.
    And in the meantime you have payroll, you have benefits to 
pay for your employees, and many of us do a couple of things: 
one, cashing in retirement and mortgage the house, just to make 
sure to keep the company moving; or using some services where 
you sell your invoices and pay very high interest so you can 
manage your cash.
    It has been helpful when we started winning prime contract 
work because some of the Federal agencies do pay us quickly. It 
is completely different when you are a subcontractor to large 
primes. Sometimes you get paid 60 days, 90 days, and payroll 
needs to be paid before the invoice goes out.
    So definitely there should be more resources dedicated to 
either some of these financial banks, working with the SBA and 
providing some ability for smaller companies to start being 
able to have access to borrow based on the work that they are 
doing and making it easier to tap that capital. It is not that 
easy, and we all as small business owners have gone through 
that.
    Senator Marshall. Right. Mr. Rubio, I certainly understand 
it's a challenge. That's what I'm trying to get at. Have you 
had any experience with CDFIs? And where are people getting 
access to capital, woman-owned businesses, minority-owned 
businesses? Any advice?
    Mr. Rubio. In my case, when I first started, I had to 
borrow money from friends and family, and a lot of people do 
that. Like she said, you show up to a bank and they say great 
story, great company, great contract, but you just got a 
contract, we're not giving you money.
    There was this thing we did not know about, the 7(a) SBA 
loan, and we actually got that. One bank, actually--we ended up 
with Sandy Spring, and they're the ones that actually told us, 
hey, by the way, there's an SBA-backed 7(a) program, and that 
saved our lives, actually. I got my first loan there. Of 
course, you also had to put in your house, your life insurance. 
I had to put everything in it, but that actually helped us a 
lot.
    Senator Marshall. Was that like a 5 percent down? Is that 
what that type of loan was?
    Mr. Rubio. Yes, there were some fees there, and since I was 
a veteran too, there were some things that were waived. But it 
was an easy--well, not an easy process, but definitely once we 
found out that that was available, we're still in it today. The 
deal with that is there was no education. I had no idea that it 
existed.
    Going back to education, things like the VIP, the 8(a) 
Accelerator--actually, I found out after the fact. I went to 
this course, this training, years into when I started the 
company, and I wish I would have done all that before even 
getting my certification. I regretted getting my 8(a) so early, 
and I was already three years into it. I wish I would have had 
this training before I did this.
    And the same thing with the money, the education. They 
brought the banks, they brought folks, CPAs who came in and 
talked to us. The deal with these programs is you actually have 
to sit there, and all these folks come in, and you can 
mentorship, you can ask questions. It's different from me 
sitting online and going through a class. It was more 
interactive, right? And you have folks who have actually done 
it.
    Senator Marshall. All right.
    Thank you, Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Cardin. Senator Shaheen?
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you both very much for being here and for your 
insights into what we could do to make these programs more 
effective.
    One of the concerns that I've heard from a number of small 
businesses in New Hampshire is the challenge of getting into 
Federal contracting. It requires a lot of paperwork, there's 
bureaucracy, and they find it really challenging. I've also 
heard that they feel like the agencies that they may be talking 
to have businesses that they've done business with over the 
years, and so they're not that welcoming to new small 
businesses that want to do work for them.
    So I wonder, I think you talked a little bit about how you 
got into the programs, the SBA programs. But can you talk a 
little bit about what your experience was getting into Federal 
contracting and what was the break that allowed you to do that?
    Either one or both of you.
    Mr. Rubio. It helped me that I was already in the 
government. I was retired, so I understood the system, I was 
used to it. Networking is a big, big piece to it, of course, 
for any business.
    The issue for me was that when I first came in I had to 
develop a business plan. And it's not their fault, but when I 
went to the SBA office, the sample they gave me was actually a 
hot dog stand, and they were trying to simplify it for me. But 
that doesn't compare to what you have to do in a Federal--
Federal contracting is a different animal. I mean, the 
financials alone, when I first started the company, you had to 
be DCAA compliant. Okay, what does that mean? There is actually 
a whole agency that does that.
    So there are a lot of things, a lot of rules and policies 
that you have to establish, for good reasons, but I don't think 
the SBA is prepared--they don't have, at least in my case, they 
didn't have anybody that was actually Federal contracting 
experts. And again, going back to the training that we 
received, those guys that were there, those folks were 
important for me, in my experience.
    Senator Shaheen. Ms. Caldas?
    Ms. Caldas. Yes. Similarly, before I formed ZemiTek, I 
supported the Federal Government as an employee of a small, 
mid-size, and large contractors. So I knew enough how to 
deliver work and understood the Federal contracting environment 
to an extent, because as a manager we didn't have access to 
certain information. It was challenging. For the reasons he was 
mentioning, we saw a lot of 8(a) companies apply, but by the 
time they figured things out they were already three or four 
years into the program. So that's why we decided to wait 
through our infrastructure, our accounting system, before we 
applied for the 8(a) program.
    Now, with regard to something you mentioned that helped us 
break into some of the agencies, because it is true, sometimes 
you are trying to provide support to some agencies and you 
don't understand how they work. They have different language, 
and they have different missions. What worked for ZemiTek was 
looking for opportunities where we could bring our experience 
as a subcontractor, and it gave us the opportunity to learn how 
that agency worked before we tried to pursue work in that 
agency as a prime contractor. It would have been very difficult 
for us to win the work without having an understanding not only 
of the Federal contracting landscape but specifically 
understanding of that Federal agency, what they buy, what are 
the rules and regulations, because besides the Federal 
regulations, each agency has some regulations that you just 
have to understand.
    So those two things worked for ZemiTek trying to tap into 
Federal contracting.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you. Can I ask you, too, about your 
certification as a woman-owned small business? The rules are 
changing, and as of October you're no longer able to self-
certify. I also understand that that's off to a relatively slow 
start in terms of helping women-owned small businesses 
understand how the new process is going to work.
    Part of the problem is you have something called the Rule 
of Two, where there have to be two women-owned small businesses 
who can compete for whatever the contract is, and part of the 
challenge is we don't have that many women-owned small 
businesses. So it's sort of a Catch-22. Have you experienced 
anything similar to that?
    Ms. Caldas. I'm going to answer your question in two parts, 
the certification, and opportunities for the women-owned.
    The certification process has changed, and the new system 
is cumbersome and is difficult to navigate. I have been 
applying to certifications since 2008. You go from the paper 
process, to a system process. When you had Certify it was 
working, and we got certified in September 2020, and now they 
have a new system, and there is not a lot of support sometimes 
from the SBA to navigate the certification process to complete 
the new procedures that we need to do before our first year. 
When we certified in September with the Certify process, we 
have one year to then jump to the new system.
    So the process is difficult, and there is not a phone 
number of somebody you can call. You keep on sending emails and 
just trying to resolve the problems by yourself. So one is the 
certification.
    Regarding opportunities, I have seen a lot more 
opportunities for women-owned small business in the last couple 
of years, and there are so many years that we have supported 
the Federal contracting. One thing that we are dedicating 
resources and, as you mentioned, they need to do the research 
and prove that a small business can do the work. I do believe 
there are a lot of woman-owned small businesses that can do the 
work. Sometimes I think the agencies, it's hard for them to 
find it, and it is also our responsibility as woman-owned small 
business to make the agencies know that we are out there.
    So one of the things that we are doing is any time an 
agency has a requirement that we think we can do the work and 
they have a request for information release, we are dedicating 
the resources to respond to that and to let them know we can do 
the work, and by the way, we are 8(a) and woman-owned. We have 
seen good results on that. Last year we pursued and won a 
contract that was a set-aside woman-owned using the GSA 
schedule, and this year we have seen one or two in the last few 
weeks that have been released, set-aside woman-owned, using the 
GSA Best-in-Class OASIS.
    So something is happening. Things are changing. We are 
seeing more than we have seen before. But I just wanted to 
address the two things, the certification process and the 
number of opportunities that are starting to go up for woman-
owned small business set-aside.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you. That's very encouraging.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Cardin. We'll now go to Senator Hirono, who is 
with us through Webex. I understand she was here when the gavel 
was brought down, so I thank her for her patience.
    Senator Hirono. Don't let it happen again, Mr. Chairman.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Hirono. Thank you very much.
    Have both of you gotten sole-source contracts?
    [Pause.]
    Senator Hirono. Hello? Can you hear me?
    Mr. Rubio. Sole source you said?
    Senator Hirono. Yes. Have both of you gotten sole-source 
contracts as 8(a)?
    Mr. Rubio. I have.
    Ms. Caldas. Yes, I have.
    Senator Hirono. Both of you. So, how does a company--for 
example, you're just starting out, you're in an 8(a), you have 
no track record. How do you qualify? How do you get the 
attention of SBA or any of the contracting entities if you 
don't have a track record as a sole-source provider? I think, 
Ms. Caldas, you touched on that a little bit. How did you gain 
the attention of the contracting entity so that they could do a 
sole-source contract with you when you just started out?
    Ms. Caldas. Yes. As I mentioned before, we understood that 
challenge, so we did not enter the 8(a) program when we 
qualified. We only needed to be in business for two years when 
we applied for the program, and we were in our eighth year when 
we submitted our application. So in the moment when we 
submitted for the 8(a) program, we already had some experience 
doing work as a subcontractor that we could pull forward when 
we were trying to pursue work to demonstrate that we could do 
that work.
    It took us several years more to get our--we have gotten 
three sole-source contracts, one really small with the Defense 
Innovation Unit of DOD, and two others providing technical 
assistance overseas. But at the time that we were pursuing 
those, we had enough past performance and past experience to 
demonstrate that we could do the work.
    It is a little more difficult for new companies entering 
the 8(a) that don't have that track record to be able to 
demonstrate that they can perform the work, so it makes it 
difficult for them to pursue 8(a) sole-source contracts.
    Senator Hirono. So is the path you followed to be in 
getting subcontracts so that you did have a track record, is 
that the usual path for 8(a)s who want to obtain sole-source 
contracts, Ms. Caldas?
    Ms. Caldas. I don't know if it is the usual path. I think 
the 8(a) is intended for 8(a) companies to be able to pursue 
those sole source when they are starting. But the reality is 
that when you are trying to pursue that work, you need to be 
able to demonstrate that you can do the work and that you have 
the capacity and the infrastructure to do the work. So I think 
it is a big mismatch in what is expected versus reality, and I 
think a lot of small businesses that join the 8(a) program 
think, okay, now I have 8(a), I can get a sole-source contract, 
and then find it difficult, taking several years, to be able to 
gain the experience that they need to pursue it. So that's the 
reality.
    Senator Hirono. That makes a lot of sense to me that a 
small business should have a track record if they hope to 
compete for a sole-source contract. It's probably something 
that the SBA should inform the 8(a) participants that that's 
the reality of things.
    So how many years are you into the 8(a) program, Ms. 
Caldas?
    Ms. Caldas. Five years. We entered the year in 2016, but 
just so you can compare, the company is going to be 14 years 
old in a few months, and we've only been in the program for 
five years.
    Senator Hirono. Yes. So I think that you are probably quite 
unique in how you have very strategically managed your company 
so that you are able to maximize your participation in the 8(a) 
program, so I commend you. And you have obviously grown your 
business to 70 employees. When you started, how many employees 
did you have?
    Ms. Caldas. One, me.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Caldas. The first year was me, and then I had a second 
person part-time.
    Senator Hirono. You should be a mentor. I think you said 
mentors would be good.
    You mentioned the concern about the category management 
contracting model, and I've heard from other companies, other 
minority-owned businesses that are concerned about the category 
management contracting model because it means that there are 
fewer contracts to go around, which means fewer opportunities 
for minority-owned businesses, particularly small businesses, 
of course. You have expressed some concerns about it. What 
should we be doing? Should we be getting away from this sort of 
contracting model?
    Ms. Caldas. I think with the category management and the 
Best-in-Class, it's a combination of issues. One, it is really 
hard to get in as a small business because, again, for you to 
be able to be successful and have one of those contract 
vehicles, everything is based on the scoring, and the scoring 
depends on how many contracts you have, what type of 
certifications you have. And the other thing is that those 
contracts don't have a full open enrollment, so they are every 
five years, a small window for you to try to apply and enter.
    So a lot of companies are doing, and we were successful 
just by partnering with a large business. So we as a team, who 
score high enough to enter--to gain the vehicle. So that's one 
thing.
    I think more agencies need to be educated about what is 
expected to be done with category management, because what we 
have personally seen is that we need to meet our category 
management goals, and certain requirements that were performed 
by small businesses are being moved to either the unrestricted 
pool or they--and we have seen this a couple of times. I don't 
know if it's something that is happening frequently. They 
release the same requirement at the same time for the small 
business pool and the unrestricted pool, and at that point you 
are really not competing. It is really just too hard to compete 
when you know that the large business is also going for the 
same work.
    So it is challenging because then a lot of the newer small 
businesses that don't have that experience, it's almost 
impossible to get into those vehicles. So it's either 
facilitating that some small businesses can really be part of 
it and opening the enrollment so we are not--I mean, we made an 
effort and we knew we only had one chance, we have to do it 
with a large business because if we don't do it now, we need to 
wait five more years. And then a lot of the requirements 
started to be consolidated and bundled. And because they are 
consolidated and bundled, they bundle a lot of small business 
requirements into a large requirement that they then release in 
the unrestricted pool.
    So I think it needs to be more visibility and oversight in 
how these plans are being implemented, because this is just 
reducing the contracts that are available for small businesses 
to pursue.
    Senator Hirono. Mr. Rubio, do you share that perspective 
regarding this kind of model for contracting?
    Mr. Rubio. Yes, and I was also--it's interesting because we 
had different experiences. I was in the JV also, in the 
mentorship program, and that was another lesson learned because 
there was not a match, and I wish I would have known a lot of 
things before I got into that. It's kind of like a marriage. 
You get married. You see each other's culture and financials 
and everything. So that did not work as well.
    As far as going back to the sole source piece, I just 
wanted to mention something, that I did have some issues with 
that, and it was that our clients--the deal with 8(a)s is that 
you have 8(a)s in specific areas, like I was supporting a very 
specific client in DOD, the Department of Defense, and they 
were not familiar with 8(a)s. They had no other 8(a). I was the 
first 8(a) that showed up, and I actually had a relationship 
with this client as far as doing other work for them. When it 
came to the point where we had to do a--we said, hey, let's go, 
we're an 8(a) now, and that's what happened back in 2015. I got 
my 8(a) and said, okay, we have an 8(a), and they said we have 
no idea how to use you like that, let's just keep doing what we 
were doing before. And we couldn't actually grow any business 
we were doing with them because of that. So education on the 
government side definitely was an issue for us, and even for 
us, because I didn't know how to tell them until years later, 
when I learned.
    So I did not wait, like you did. I should have.
    Senator Hirono. Considering that----
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you.
    Senator Hirono. Oh, I'm sorry. Considering that all 
contracting agencies I thought were supposed to have certain 
goals regarding minority-owned business contracting, the fact 
that some entities still don't seem to know that, never heard 
of 8(a), that's pretty astounding.
    Mr. Chairman, I think this idea, this concern about the 
category management contracting model, I hope that we can ask 
further questions about how that is being implemented and the 
impact on 8(a)s and small businesses.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you, Senator Hirono.
    Senator Rosen by Webex.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Chairman Cardin. I appreciate you 
holding this important hearing on Federal contracting for 
minority and women-owned businesses.
    I really want to thank the witnesses here today, too, for 
your insightful testimony, for your hard work to build your 
business and mentor others. What I want to say is that 99 
percent of businesses in Nevada are small businesses, and so we 
understand their importance not just to our community and to 
our families but, of course, to our states and country.
    Congress has historically worked to enhance the integration 
of our small businesses in the Federal contracting process. In 
Fiscal Year 2020, Nevada small businesses received over $500 
million in Federal contracting dollars. More than $220 million 
was awarded to small disadvantaged businesses, minority-owned 
businesses that are also economically disadvantaged, but $157 
million awarded to woman-owned small businesses.
    So I'm pleased that in recent years the Federal Government 
has met its goals on small business contracting; but, of 
course, there's always room to improve minority- and women-
owned businesses in Nevada and across the country.
    Ms. Caldas, can you tell me what you think we could do to 
improve not just the process but increase opportunities for 
women-owned businesses and just really increase the awareness 
that these things exist? And also do you think the resources 
that you needed were available to you through the process of 
seeking your opportunities? And what might you add, future 
resources that you think SBA could put in to help women and 
minorities and others in their quest to get their own small 
business going?
    Ms. Caldas. Several things regarding the woman-owned small 
business. I think the process of getting certified should be 
streamlined and should be easier. I mentioned in my testimony 
that we go through the process, for example, 8(a), we have 
proven that we are a U.S. citizen, that we belong to these 
groups, and that we have control of the business, and then we 
need to go through the same process to prove that we are woman-
owned, controlled by a woman.
    So reciprocity between the 8(a) and the WSB. If we submit 
an application for the 8(a) and I already have proven that I am 
the sole owner, that you can get the WSB certification without 
having to go through the process is one thing.
    I think woman-owned small businesses need to receive some 
education in how to market to some of the agencies and have the 
resources available to respond to the requirements that 
agencies have to at least demonstrate that woman-owned small 
businesses out there are capable of doing that work.
    And I think at the same time agencies and government buyers 
and the contracting officers need to have a better 
understanding of setting aside work for woman-owned small 
businesses. Some agencies are doing better than others, and I 
think it's just a matter of some education and training and 
understanding.
    Just playing devil's advocate, sometimes the buyer needs to 
buy the services quickly, and they are going to go the fastest 
and easiest way to do that. So if they have an ability and they 
have an understanding of how to tap into the woman-owned small 
businesses out there, I think it's just going to benefit both 
the agencies and also the companies that are owned by women.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I think you're right about 
improving outreach and awareness. That's always an important 
factor.
    Mr. Rubio, I want to thank you for your service to our 
country. Of course, in Nevada we're proud to be home to over 
225,000 veterans, and one in eight of our small businesses are 
veteran-owned. We also have one of the largest Latino 
populations per capita in the U.S., so really part of our small 
business ecosystem.
    So what do you think Congress can do to improve Federal 
Government's contracting numbers for veterans like yourself and 
being sure that there's outreach and awareness? What do you 
think you can add in the short time I have left? Thank you.
    Mr. Rubio. Thank you, thank you. It's basically the same 
thing. Also with the certification, after going through the 
8(a) process, I had to get certified as a WSB, and we had to go 
through exactly the same process, although you can self-
certify. But in order to get that CVE, you had to go through 
the process.
    It's education, going back to the same thing. The programs 
like VIP and the 8(a) Accelerator are things that we need. You 
need to get training like that before you get your 
certification because, like Ms. Caldas mentioned, you get your 
8(a) or CVE and you go, okay, I'm ready, and crickets. Nobody 
comes or calls. You think that the phone is going to be ringing 
off the hook.
    And I get the part where we have to do marketing, we have 
to reach out to clients, but it's education on both sides, 
because your clients, the clients you've been dealing with, 
they don't even know how to use it.
    Senator Rosen. Well, thank you. I think this has been 
really informative. Outreach and training on both sides, 
streamlining, duplication in the process, that's going to make 
it easier for everyone, and then hopefully more effective for 
small businesses to move forward.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you, Senator Rosen.
    You all have really put a lot before us, and we're going to 
be taking that into consideration. We did talk about the 
mentorship programs and the limitations that are there with the 
way that it has been merged with the Protege program, so we 
will be taking a look at that.
    We haven't had a chance yet to talk about HUBZones. I 
understand, Ms. Caldas, you did participate in a HUBZone. I 
don't know if you have any suggestions on how we could improve 
that program to make it more effective. We know it's important, 
but we do get concerns as to whether that's being most 
effectively designed in order to help underserved communities.
    Ms. Caldas. Yes. We were HUBZone very briefly. We entered 
the HUBZone program in 2009. It is very difficult to qualify in 
the HUBZone and maintain it because of the requirement that 35 
percent of your employees should also live in a HUBZone, and 
you cannot dictate where your employees are or where they're 
going to move to.
    And then with the Census of 2010, a lot of companies like 
mine, zones change, and we lost the certification.
    So making it easier to maintain with the HUBZone would be 
one thing to take a look at.
    Also, make more opportunities available for HUBZone 
companies. When we were in the HUBZone program, a lot of the 
requirements that were released under that program, we couldn't 
find enough technical work aligned with what we were doing that 
we could pursue. What helped us was to be part of being a 
subcontractor because the large companies had to meet the goals 
of having a certain percentage of work contracted to HUBZone. 
So that's the only thing that we were able to take advantage of 
when we had the HUBZone.
    So looking for opportunities for HUBZone companies that are 
really good opportunities for the companies to do the work. You 
don't find a lot of IT work under HUBZone. I think I saw one a 
few months ago, and even though we were not HUBZone, I was just 
so happy to see that something real and tangible was really 
good work. More opportunities released under the HUBZone, but 
also facilitate the certification process. I know that there 
have been some changes lately in the HUBZone, but still the 
opportunities that are set aside for the HUBZone are very 
limited.
    Chairman Cardin. Thank you.
    I know that Senator Hickenlooper was attempting to be here. 
He may have an opportunity to ask questions for the record if 
they're asked.
    I want to thank both of you again for your testimonies. I 
can assure you we're going to be following up on the points 
that you have raised, and I think we will have opportunities 
during this Congress to respond to many of the points that you 
brought to our committee.
    So, in the legacy of Parren J. Mitchell, we're going to be 
doing everything we can to make sure that the tools available 
to the SBA are there to serve the underserved communities, 
minority businesses, woman-owned businesses, veteran-owned 
businesses, which Congress has intended to make sure it's 
carried out to its fullest.
    And with that, the committee will stand adjourned. Thank 
you very much.
    Ms. Caldas. Thank you.
    Mr. Rubio. Thank you, Senator.
    [Whereupon, at 3:32 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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