[Senate Hearing 117-458]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 117-458

                  THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES FOR
                    MAINTAINING EXISTING HYDROPOWER
                   CAPACITY, EXPANDING HYDROPOWER AT
                    NON-POWERED DAMS, AND INCREASING
                       PUMPED STORAGE HYDROPOWER

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                            JANUARY 11, 2022
                               __________
                               
                               
                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               


                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
46-844                    WASHINGTON : 2024           


               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine            JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
                                     ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                      Renae Black, Staff Director
                      Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
                 Adam Berry, Professional Staff Member
             Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
              Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
           Jake McCurdy, Republican Professional Staff Member

                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West 
  Virginia.......................................................     1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from 
  Wyoming........................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Garson, Jennifer, Acting Director of the Water Power Technologies 
  Office, U.S. Department of Energy..............................    10
Touton, Hon. Camille, Commissioner, Bureau of Reclamation........    24
Corwin, Scott, Executive Director, Northwest Public Power 
  Association....................................................    31
Woolf, Malcolm, President and CEO, National Hydropower 
  Association....................................................    42

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

American Public Power Association:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   141
American Rivers and Hydropower Reform Coalition:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   144
American Rivers et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   151
American Whitewater:
    Letter for the Record........................................   155
Barrasso, Hon. John:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
    Letter from Democratic Members of Congress to the Federal 
      Energy Regulatory Commission, dated January 5, 2022........     4
Cat Creek Energy, LLC:
    Letter for the Record........................................   162
Colorado River Energy Distributors Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   167
Corwin, Scott:
    Opening Statement............................................    31
    Written Testimony............................................    33
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   124
Garson, Jennifer:
    Opening Statement............................................    10
    Written Testimony............................................    13
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   100
InPipe Energy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   169
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
    Comments on July 2021 DOE RFI from the following 
      organizations:
        Alaska Independent Power Producers Association...........    81
        Juneau Hydropower........................................    84
        Renewable Juneau.........................................    88
Natel Energy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   172
NuSTREEM, LLC:
    Letter for the Record........................................   176
Touton, Hon. Camille:
    Opening Statement............................................    24
    Written Testimony............................................    26
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   113
Trout Unlimited:
    Letter for the Record........................................   179
    Report entitled ``Why We Need a Free-Flowing Lower Snake 
      River''....................................................   185
    Statement for the Record.....................................   212
Western Governors' Association:
    Letter for the Record with attached policy resolutions.......   219
Woolf, Malcolm:
    Opening Statement............................................    42
    Written Testimony............................................    44
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   131
Yuma County Agricultural Water Coalition and Colorado Energy 
  Distributors Association:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   237

 
                  THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES FOR
                    MAINTAINING EXISTING HYDROPOWER
                   CAPACITY, EXPANDING HYDROPOWER AT
                    NON-POWERED DAMS, AND INCREASING
                       PUMPED STORAGE HYDROPOWER

                              ----------                              


                       TUESDAY, JANUARY 11, 2022

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in 
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin 
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, 
                U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

    The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
    I would like to start by welcoming everyone back to the 
Committee as we begin this new year. The Committee has done 
incredible work to advance priorities for our nation's energy 
sector and public lands over the past year. We kicked off the 
117th Congress last year with a hearing on global climate 
trends that established a baseline of facts for our work to 
address climate change through innovation while maintaining 
affordable and reliable power and American energy independence. 
What we have achieved over the past year reflects that 
imperative. We came together to develop and pass the bipartisan 
Energy Infrastructure Act, which has now been signed into law 
as part of the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act.
    This once-in-a-generation investment in the nation's 
infrastructure includes crucial funding to advance carbon 
capture, utilization, sequestration, and removal; hydrogen; 
critical minerals and battery recycling; upgrading transmission 
infrastructure and modernizing the electric grid; energy 
efficiency and weatherization; cleaning up and developing clean 
energy on abandoned mine lands and orphaned wells; and so much 
more. In total, the Committee held 44 Committee and 
Subcommittee hearings as well as 10 business meetings where we 
reported out the Energy Infrastructure bill and 24 pieces of 
public lands legislation, and we advanced 19 of President 
Biden's nominees. I look forward to another productive year 
ahead for this Committee, working together across the aisle as 
we have become known for, to do important work for the American 
people.
    With that, I will now turn to today's hearing topic of 
hydropower.
    Hydropower is one of the oldest sources of power generation 
in the country. Until 2019, it was also the largest source of 
renewable generation. In 2020, hydropower provided over seven 
percent of the total U.S. electricity generation, coming in 
fifth behind natural gas, nuclear, coal, and wind. Unlike most 
other renewable energy resources, hydropower generation 
provides baseload electricity. It is also flexible, which means 
the generation capacity is available when we need it, and it 
has the ability to respond to changing grid conditions and 
adjust output accordingly. That makes hydropower unique and 
valuable for maintaining grid reliability as more intermittent 
resources come online. Given the baseload attributes of 
hydropower, we need to make sure our existing capacity remains 
operational. Much of the nation's hydropower is generated at 
large federal dams operated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 
and the Bureau of Reclamation.
    I am pleased that we have the Commissioner of Reclamation, 
Camille Touton, here to discuss how Reclamation, as the second 
largest hydropower producer, is tackling this challenge. One of 
the greatest challenges for nonfederal hydropower operators is 
the extensive cost of upgrades and improvements that many 
facilities need in order to be brought in line with federal 
standards. Between now and 2030, 281 facilities that represent 
nearly 14 gigawatts of hydropower generation and pumped storage 
hydropower capacity are up for Federal Energy Regulatory 
Commission (FERC) relicensing, which is close to a third of all 
U.S. nonfederal hydropower capacity. Between low 
hydroelectricity prices and the high capital cost of 
maintenance and retrofits required for relicensing, there is a 
real possibility that many of these plants could face closure.
    A 2021 report from the Department of Energy (DOE) cited 
cost of necessary upgrades and improvements as a leading factor 
in many operators' decisions to surrender their licenses. The 
bipartisan infrastructure bill that President Biden signed into 
law in November made a historic investment in new and existing 
incentives for new hydropower production, efficiency upgrades, 
and infrastructure and environmental improvements. The bill 
also included $8.2 billion for western water infrastructure at 
the Bureau of Reclamation, which included investments in aging 
infrastructure and hydropower facilities. These resources will 
help to ensure that we keep vital hydropower capacity online. I 
know agencies are only beginning to get these resources out the 
door, but I look forward to hearing from our panel about how 
they view these investments.
    Finally, in addition to maintaining our existing 
hydropower, most of which is located in the West, we also have 
an opportunity to develop new hydropower generation and pumped 
storage hydropower resources in the West and in other regions. 
Less than three percent of the dams in the U.S. produce power, 
leaving thousands that were built for flood control or 
irrigation that could be retrofitted for hydropower, including 
several that the Army Corps has identified in my State of West 
Virginia. In 2012, Oak Ridge National Laboratory did an 
assessment of non-powered dams in the U.S. and determined that 
there is at least 12 gigawatts of untapped hydropower 
potential. Development of non-powered dams and new pumped 
storage hydropower systems can support additional intermittent 
renewable generation and create many new, well-paying jobs. So 
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about the 
need to maintain and grow this very valuable resource and the 
challenges that we face in doing so.
    With that, I am going to turn to Senator Barrasso for his 
opening remarks.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

    Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thanks so much for holding this important hearing because we 
are, once again, discussing the need for affordable, reliable, 
and resilient energy.
    Before turning to today's hearing topic, I would like to 
address a letter that dozens of Democrats sent to the FERC, the 
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. They did it last week and 
it was interesting because it was in yesterday's Wall Street 
Journal under the headline, ``No Climate Warriors in Frozen 
Foxholes.'' I will show this to you, Mr. Chairman, because, 
like the Wall Street Journal, I found it ridiculous that there 
are members of Congress and members of the Senate who have 
worked to undermine our nation's ability to produce natural 
gas, and they are now expressing their concern about its high 
prices. These are the same members who want to impose a new 
natural gas tax on American families, the same members who 
oppose new domestic natural gas production, and they include 
many northeastern members who oppose new pipelines which would 
give their own states access to some of the nation's cheapest 
natural gas--specifically, natural gas from West Virginia. If 
these Democrats want to reduce energy prices, they need to work 
with Republicans to make it easier, not more difficult, to 
produce American energy.
    [The letter referred to by Senator Barrasso follows:]

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    Senator Barrasso. That includes developing and using all 
forms of energy, which brings us to the topic of today's 
hearing for which you brought together these experts, Mr. 
Chairman, because hydropower does produce more than seven 
percent of our nation's electricity. It is critical. Until 
recently, hydropower was our nation's largest source of 
renewable energy. Unlike other sources of renewable energy, 
hydropower is available when it is needed. That means that 
hydroelectric dams can provide power whether it is day or 
night, whether the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, no 
matter what. Hydropower can once again be our largest source of 
renewable energy if we maintain our existing hydroelectric dams 
and encourage the installation of turbines on our nation's non-
powered dams, because, Mr. Chairman, the overwhelming majority 
of our dams do not produce any hydropower. More than 90,000 
dams exist, yet fewer than 2,300 produce electricity. That is 
less than three percent. Clearly, not every dam is well-suited 
to energy generation. There are many important considerations 
beyond energy production. These include preserving and 
enhancing recreation, farming, ranching, and wildlife habitat, 
but with only three percent of our dams producing energy, that 
does leave a lot of room for growth.
    According to the Department of Energy, installing turbines 
on some of these dams would provide at least 12 gigawatts of 
additional electricity. That is enough renewable energy 
electricity to power nine million homes. Growing our nation's 
hydropower capacity would help our country reduce or avoid new 
greenhouse gas emissions. It would also increase the 
reliability and resiliency of our nation's electric grids. Now, 
this is especially important in light of the blackout events in 
California and across the Midwest in recent years. Hydropower 
can be used to repower an electric grid which has collapsed. 
This is known as a black start capability. To provide this 
service, an electric generation unit cannot rely on any power 
from the collapsed grid. The Texas grid came dangerously close 
to requiring a black start last year. Roughly 40 percent of the 
electric generating units which are maintained for black start 
services are hydropower units. That is why they are so 
critical.
    This attribute makes hydropower a particularly attractive 
resource in light of the increasing threats to the electric 
grid from cyberattacks. Hydropower is clearly an important 
component of an all-of-the-above energy strategy. We should 
encourage more hydropower generation, and if we are going to 
grow our nation's hydropower capacity, we must address the 
permitting process. This is especially important for utilities 
that are deciding whether or not to relicense existing 
hydropower units. Streamlining the permitting process is also 
necessary to promote the installation of hydropower turbines on 
some of these non-powered dams. Currently, hydropower faces one 
of the most complex and time-consuming permitting processes. 
The glacial pace of permitting is a significant barrier to 
private-sector investment in hydropower. It reduces the 
likelihood of investment and upgrading existing hydropower 
facilities as well and installing turbines on non-powered dams.
    According to the 2017 testimony of one hydropower 
developer, quote, ``The timeline for a new hydropower 
development project to reach commercial operation is between 10 
and 13 years, which is almost unmatched in the power generation 
space.'' He goes on to say that most of this time is taken by 
permitting--not by construction, by permitting. Well, little 
has changed since 2017, and for that reason, I encourage this 
Committee to explore meaningful reforms to the hydropower 
licensing process. To do that, the Committee should also get 
input from the FERC and additional agencies within the 
Department of the Interior on this topic. I hope we can do that 
soon.
    Mr. Chairman, I just want to thank you again for holding 
this important hearing and would like to extend a warm welcome 
to all the witnesses. I look forward to the testimony on the 
topic. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
    I would like to turn to our panel of witnesses. With us we 
have Ms. Jennifer Garson, Acting Director of the Water Power 
Technologies Office at the Department of Energy, who is joining 
us virtually today.
    Ms. Camille Touton, the Commissioner of Reclamation, who is 
also with us virtually.
    Mr. Scott Corwin, Executive Director of the Northwest 
Public Power Association.
    And Mr. Malcolm Woolf, President and CEO of the National 
Hydropower Association.
    I want to thank all of you for joining us today, and Ms. 
Garson, we will begin with your opening remarks.

  STATEMENT OF JENNIFER GARSON, ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE WATER 
      POWER TECHNOLOGIES OFFICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

    Ms. Garson. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and 
members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify before you today. My name is Jennifer Garson and I am 
the Acting Director for the Water Power Technologies Office in 
the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Energy Efficiency and 
Renewable Energy. As Acting Director, I direct applied 
research, development, demonstration, and deployment activities 
for the Water Power Technologies Office.
    Hydropower has provided clean, low-cost electricity for 
over a century. In 2020, hydropower provided 7.2 percent of the 
electricity on the grid, accounting for 37 percent of renewable 
electricity generation. Pumped storage is the largest 
contributor to U.S. energy storage, including the largest 
source of commercially available long-duration energy storage. 
Today's evolving power system has created new opportunities for 
hydropower to play an important role in a 100 percent clean 
energy future using existing and new technologies and 
infrastructure. Hydropower, including pumped storage, provides 
key services to support the integration of variable renewable 
energy resources. Through modernization of the existing U.S. 
hydropower fleet, adapting to the changing needs of our 
nation's power system, and meeting the challenges of climate 
change head-on, hydropower can be a keystone to a fully 
decarbonized power system by 2035.
    However, the U.S. hydropower fleet contains some of the 
oldest electricity generation facilities in the world and will 
continue to require innovations and investments to meet the 
evolving needs of the grid. Additionally, much of the fleet is 
up for relicensing over the coming decades, representing an 
immediate need to both measure and evaluate hydropower's role 
in the grid. And while there are opportunities to expand and 
deploy more hydropower, including a significant pipeline of 
pumped storage, significant challenges exist in bringing new 
facilities on the grid. DOE recognizes the need for robust 
hydropower research, investment, and innovation in existing and 
potential new hydropower resources. The Water Power 
Technologies Office administers a broad portfolio of research 
activities and supports industry efforts to maintain, develop, 
and deploy new hydropower. These efforts are directly aligned 
with the Biden Administration's goal of a carbon pollution-free 
electricity sector by 2035.
    With the advent of a greater level of invariable renewable 
energy generation on the U.S. grid, hydropower's role is more 
critical than ever. Our HydroWIRES initiative, launched in 
2019, addresses both the existing and future roles of 
hydropower in serving the grid. The goal of this work is to 
fund the analysis and technologies to understand, enable, and 
improve hydropower and pumped storage as contributions to 
reliability, resiliency, and integration into the rapidly 
evolving U.S. electricity system. The Water Power Technologies 
Office also develops new technologies, tools, and data to 
understand and improve the environmental performance of 
hydropower facilities. These advancements help inform and 
streamline the environmental evaluations and studies associated 
with the licensing process and make it easier and more cost-
effective to mitigate any long-term impacts of operations. Our 
work focuses on fish passage and migration, water quality and 
water release management, and we are building the analytical 
capabilities to better understand and quantify the hydrologic 
impacts of climate change on the fleet. Our office also 
supports the development of technologies and analysis to 
develop new low-impact hydropower to power non-powered dams for 
infrastructure. This includes evaluating adding hydro to 
existing infrastructure to support multiple benefits, such as 
irrigation modernization to serve agricultural end-users.
    Community-centered development is a critical emphasis of 
our work, particularly in the instances of remote, underserved, 
tribal, and isolated communities. These communities are deeply 
reliant on and connected to their water systems as part of 
their economy and culture. Recognizing and being respectful of 
these factors, we endeavor to build connections to communities 
as well as industries who use the technologies developed 
through our funding. And with the passage of the bipartisan 
infrastructure law, the Water Power Technologies Office will 
administer almost $800 million to support adding capacity to 
non-powered dams, investing in efficiency gains at existing 
facilities, and will address grid capabilities, environmental 
improvements, and dam safety in our nation's nonfederal 
hydropower fleet. This historic level of funding for these 
programs will have an immediate impact on the U.S. hydropower 
sector and help address some of the critical capital gaps that 
industry faces in making key improvements for hydropower to 
continue to serve the grid.
    Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the 
Committee today. I look forward to working with you to address 
both the challenges and opportunities for hydropower and pumped 
storage while ensuring equitable access to low-cost, reliable, 
and resilient clean energy. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Garson follows:]

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    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Garson.
    Now we will have Commissioner Touton.

               STATEMENT OF HON. CAMILLE TOUTON, 
              COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF RECLAMATION

    Ms. Touton. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and 
members of the Committee, good morning and Happy New Year. 
First, thank you for consideration of my nomination in support 
of my confirmation. I am honored to be joining you today as the 
Commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation, the second largest 
producer of hydropower in the country.
    Hydropower is unique. It is a baseload, deployable resource 
with black start capability. My remarks today summarize my 
testimony and focus on Reclamation's efforts to protect, 
enhance, and promote hydropower and the challenges that we face 
because of drought. Hydropower production in an environmentally 
responsible manner is an important source of renewable energy 
and supports the Administration's and the Department's clean 
energy and climate-change initiatives. Development of 
hydropower across the West has created significant benefits but 
it also has significantly impacted the environment in the 
riverine communities, including tribal communities. The 
Reclamation of the 21st century continues to recognize the 
value of hydropower while also working with our partners on 
solutions to these challenges.
    On average, Reclamation produces enough power equivalent to 
the demand of 3.7 million homes annually, produces $1 billion 
in power revenues, and displaces approximately 1.7 million tons 
of carbon dioxide, but our fleet is aging. To ensure the 
continued reliability, efficiency, and safety of our aging 
hydropower assets, Reclamation continues to look for 
opportunities to upgrade and modernize. Since 2009, Reclamation 
has replaced 35 turbines. This has allowed for an additional 
340 million kilowatt-hours annually. During that same period, 
we have upgraded six generators, increasing capacity by 40,000 
kilowatts. Last month, Reclamation and Bonneville Power 
Administration completed the overhaul of several generating 
units inside the Nathaniel Washington Power Plant from Grand 
Coulee Dam, the largest hydropower facility in the nation.
    Reclamation is committed to facilitating the development of 
nonfederal hydropower at our existing federal facilities. In 
2020, Reclamation signed the Federal Hydropower Memorandum of 
Understanding (MOU) with the Department of Energy and the U.S. 
Army Corps of Engineers. Coupled with our hydropower strategic 
plan, we ensure hydropower remains cost competitive while 
delivering value to our customers and stakeholders. Through our 
streamlined Lease of Power of Privilege (LOPP) permitting 
process, Reclamation is facilitating the development of 
nonfederal renewable hydropower by existing federal projects. 
And currently, 14 facilities operate on Reclamation projects, 
ten that were brought online since 2009.
    Western hydropower faces tremendous challenges due to the 
unprecedented drought--most prominently seen in the Colorado 
River Basin. Lakes Mead and Powell are at their lowest levels 
since initial filling. In the Lower Basin, as Lake Mead's 
elevation drops, the effectiveness of Hoover Dam turbines is 
reduced. So in 2017, Reclamation replaced five of the 17 power 
generating turbines with what are called wide-head turbines, 
creating efficiencies at lower lake levels. Reclamation also 
signed an MOU with the Lower Basin states to collectively 
conserve one million acre-feet of water over the next two years 
at Lake Mead and keep that water in Lake Mead. In the Upper 
Basin, hydropower production at Glen Canyon Dam has dropped 
about 16 percent. Recent forecasts show the possibility of Lake 
Powell dropping below a designated target elevation of 3,525 
feet as early as next month. This elevation is critical because 
it is just 35 feet above the minimum power pool elevation of 
3,490 feet. Extremely dry hydrology combined with low reservoir 
levels means new and unpredictable operational conditions at 
Glen Canyon Dam, among others. Reclamation is working with our 
Upper Basin partners to protect elevations at Lake Powell, but 
we cannot do this alone. Working together is the best way to 
protect our water and power resources across the West.
    While challenges exist, so do opportunities through 
investments and the bipartisan infrastructure law, which 
includes new pumped storage authorities for Reclamation. Thank 
you for the leadership of this Committee for including 
Reclamation as part of this law. We anticipate the release of 
our FY22 infrastructure spending plan later this month. Thank 
you for the opportunity to discuss our work. I would also like 
to recognize Max Spiker and our hydropower team in Denver and 
across the regions for their work on this issue. Reclamation is 
committed to leading our mission of delivering water and 
producing hydropower, and I am pleased to answer any questions 
you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Touton follows:]

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    The Chairman. Thank you, Commissioner.
    Now we have Mr. Corwin.

STATEMENT OF SCOTT CORWIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NORTHWEST PUBLIC 
                       POWER ASSOCIATION

    Mr. Corwin. Thank you. Good morning Chairman Manchin, 
Ranking Member Barrasso, and members of the Committee. Thank 
you for holding this hearing on hydropower today. While 
hydropower is one of our oldest forms of generating 
electricity, it is also a resource for the future--renewable, 
emission-free, with a flexible capacity to add stability to the 
grid at critical times.
    The Northwest Public Power Association's members are 
consumer-owned electric utilities that use a wide range of 
generation resources. Many, like Lower Valley Energy in 
Jackson, Wyoming, rely significantly on hydropower. 
Multipurpose dams can be critical, not just for power, but also 
for transportation, irrigation, flood control, water supply, 
and recreation. Losing any part of this network would be 
devastating to communities and would destabilize the electrical 
system.
    While hydropower provides as much as 90 percent of 
electrical capacity in some areas we serve, it is only seven 
percent of our capacity nationally. Why? Public policy and 
market design have not kept up with the need--and it is a need 
that is very real for regions adding types of generation 
resources that do not have adequate storage and flexibility, 
where hydropower can provide reliability through services like 
spinning reserves.
    One challenge for hydropower is that traditional energy 
markets were not designed to provide proper price signals for 
its values, like ramping capacity and ancillary services. We 
need more market mechanisms that can create price formation to 
compensate hydropower so it is available for dispatch when 
needed most. Another challenge is that hydropower has not 
received the same financial incentives as other sources.
    I would like to thank Senators Cantwell and Murkowski for 
introducing S. 2306, to create a 30 percent clean energy tax 
credit to support upgrades at existing hydropower projects. 
Importantly, it does include a direct-pay option, allowing use 
by cooperatives, municipalities, and public utility districts 
who serve almost a third of all retail customers nationally. 
Our thanks also to Senator Wyden for his support on this issue 
and pending tax legislation.
    We also appreciate Congress acting to fund grant programs 
for hydropower projects, including pumped storage that can make 
an enormous difference, especially in rural communities and 
those not connected to the traditional grid--areas like in 
Alaska, where small projects can have a big impact. A 
demonstration of grid resiliency and black start situations--
Idaho Falls Power and the Idaho National Lab used new 
operational approaches to in effect create a new micro-grid out 
of small, run-of-the-river projects during emergencies. Non-
federally owned hydropower, like those small, run-of-the-river 
projects are subject to FERC licensing and relicensing. So 
another challenge for hydro is whether projects can navigate 
this arduous federal process in time to help meet our 
increasing needs.
    It is astounding that Energy Northwest, a public power 
joint operating agency, experienced a quicker, more predictable 
process to renew the license of their 1,200-megawatt nuclear 
plant than it did for their 27-megawatt hydro project, and that 
the Okanogan County Public Utility District in Washington saw 
costs triple over a decade before abandoning a proposal to 
energize an already existing dam. A DOE report on this process 
released in October noted that 90 percent of projects seeking 
original licenses are abandoned prior to receiving the license. 
Members of this Committee have led strong efforts to address 
process delays and costs. Thank you.
    My full testimony lists other proposals that could really 
make a difference to eliminate redundancy and delay among 
federal agencies, such as clearly establishing FERC as the 
strong lead agency with authority over timelines. A few other 
areas I note where the Federal Government could support 
hydropower capacity include having FERC allow more operating 
flexibility so operators, like Seattle City Light, that see 
hydrograph changes in critical needs can address those without 
the unwieldy license amendment process.
    DOE should continue to support data-driven collaboration by 
entities like the Hydropower Research Institute to maintain 
capacity and reduce forced outages. FERC Dam Safety Regulators 
should not add unnecessary or redundant requests that distract 
staff and other resources. And the ``Special Use Permit'' 
process for relocating sediment from U.S. Forest Service lands 
should be amended so operators can get timely resolution to 
maintain project capacity and safety.
    With energy policy priorities and system stability hanging 
in the balance, hydropower is uniquely positioned to lead us 
into the future if our state and federal policies will allow it 
to do so by streamlining regulation, creating more equitable 
incentives, and sending better market signals. Thank you for 
your leadership and holding this hearing today. I am happy to 
answer any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Corwin follows:]

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    The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    And now Mr. Woolf.

    STATEMENT OF MALCOLM WOOLF, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL 
                     HYDROPOWER ASSOCIATION

    Mr. Woolf. Thank you. It is a great pleasure that I join 
you today to discuss maintaining and expanding the U.S. 
hydropower fleet as we work to develop a reliable, affordable, 
carbon-free electricity grid. While the contribution of 
hydropower may be underreported in the news, hydropower quietly 
supplies enough electricity to power over 30 million homes and 
businesses, provide 38 percent of the nation's renewable 
electricity, delivers 94 percent of energy storage capacity in 
the U.S., and provides well-paying jobs to 68,000 
professionals. Hydropower also plays an essential, yet often 
overlooked role in enhancing grid reliability by, for example, 
providing nearly half of the nation's black start capability, 
which is vital in restarting the grid in the event of a 
blackout.
    Mr. Chairman, a few years ago in West Virginia, American 
Municipal Power started the Willow Island Hydropower Facility 
near the city of Saint Marys. It was built on an existing non-
powered dam, which is proof-positive that there is ample 
opportunity for our industry to grow.
    Ranking Member Barrasso, there are 21 hydropower facilities 
currently operating in Wyoming, providing about 10 percent of 
the state's renewable energy. There is also an ongoing 
feasibility study for a 900-megawatt Seminoe pumped storage 
facility located approximately 30 miles outside of Rawlins, 
Wyoming.
    I am pleased to report that the hydropower industry and our 
former adversaries of the environmental community are working 
together to accelerate the rehabilitation, retrofit, and 
removal of our nation's more than 90,000 dams. Facilitated by 
Stanford University's ``Uncommon Dialogue'' process, this 
collaboration points the way for Congress itself to take 
bipartisan action to advance both the clean energy benefit of 
hydropower and the environmental benefits of healthy rivers. 
Let me highlight my three specific recommendations for 
Congress.
    First, Congress should advance the three R's by enacting 
the pending tax provisions--specifically, the Enhancing and 
Maintaining Hydropower and River Restoration Act, championed by 
Senator Cantwell and Senator Murkowski, as well as the 21st 
Century Dam bill sponsored by Senator Feinstein. A critical 
down payment toward these goals was included in the recent 
bipartisan infrastructure package, thanks to the leadership of 
Chairman Manchin and Senator Portman. Further thanks goes to 
Senators Wyden and Cantwell for including an environmental 
improvement tax credit in the pending Build Back Better package 
with a direct-pay for public power. The industry looks forward 
to working with the Senate and Congress to further clarify 
these provisions to encourage dam safety, grid resilience, and 
dam removal. We also urge Congress to enact important tax 
incentives for new pumped storage and an extension of the now-
expired hydropower and marine energy tax credits and providing 
these credits at full value.
    Secondly, Congress needs to address the hydropower license 
and relicensing process. The uncertainty about the time and 
cost involved is dramatically at odds with the urgency of 
addressing climate change and the upcoming wave of hydropower 
relicensing proceedings, as roughly 30 percent of FERC 
hydropower licenses expire in 2030. Relicensing, on average, 
takes 7.6 years to complete, with relicensing for many 
facilities lasting over a decade. At the same time, the 
paperwork costs associated with relicensing typically exceed 
$10 million, with the actual work in upgrades costing many 
millions more. Not surprisingly, a recent industry survey found 
that over one-third of hydropower owners were actively 
considering decommissioning a facility. The groups involved in 
the Uncommon Dialogue are working together to provide the 
Committee a legislative proposal in February that can win 
bipartisan support, with the goal of enacting such a package 
before the end of this Congress.
    Finally, my testimony offers several suggestions to promote 
renewable generation at existing non-powered dams. In 
supporting funding for DOE, the Corps, and the Bureau, we urge 
Congress to provide the flexibility these agencies need to hire 
full-time staff to fulfill their respective missions. As I 
conclude, let me share just a brief final anecdote. A year ago 
in New England, a nuclear facility tripped offline, and with it 
a staggering 17,000 megawatts of power. The lights in 
Massachusetts and New Hampshire did not flicker, because two 
pumped storage facilities quickly dispatched the electricity 
needed to make up the shortfall. Hydropower is, without 
question, an essential part of a clean energy future, and I 
look forward to working with the Committee today.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Woolf follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, sir. Now we are going to start our 
questions. I will begin, and this will go to Ms. Garson and Mr. 
Woolf, if they want to reply. The bipartisan infrastructure 
bill that was signed into law by President Biden includes over 
$750 million for new and existing incentives to support 
nonfederal hydropower operators. What kind of impact do these 
incentives have for hydropower operators, particularly those 
who are or soon will be undergoing FERC licensing, relicensing, 
or considering ceasing operations? Do you expect that we can 
keep them open? Does this do enough, or what more needs to be 
done?
    Ms. Garson.
    Ms. Garson. Sir, I can take that first.
    The almost $800 million provided through the infrastructure 
bill is a really critical first down payment to providing both 
investor certainty as well as de-risking some of the projects 
that are really critical from an environmental grid or dam 
safety perspective. The 247 program, which is new for our 
office, will make a big difference. If we are talking about the 
distribution of funding, it is going to impact hundreds of 
projects nationwide. And then for our 242 program and 243, this 
is increasing efficiency gains at existing hydropower 
facilities and incentivizing the development of non-powered 
dams nationwide. So while we are still designing and 
implementing the program, it will involve intense stakeholder 
engagement. We believe that this is a very big and important 
first step at de-risking some of the investments that are 
really critical for the services to be kept online.
    The Chairman. Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. Agreed. Thank you, Chairman, for your leadership 
in getting the bipartisan infrastructure provisions enacted. 
Those provisions will go a long way in preserving and 
maintaining the hydropower fleet, but they are just a down 
payment. We think that money will stretch to cover investments 
in perhaps 150 to 200 facilities across the nation, but there 
are about 2,200 in the U.S. So a great down payment, but there 
is more work to be done.
    The Chairman. With so much regulation, the Army Corps of 
Engineers, and all the different things they have to go through 
for permitting, how interested is private industry in 
developing the dams that we have been talking about, with 
thousands and thousands that could be producing so much more 
hydropower? Is there an interest in the private sector?
    Mr. Woolf. There is significant interest in the private 
sector in developing non-powered dams. As you noted, 97 percent 
of dams in this country do not provide power. And if we are 
going to have dams, we might as well provide the clean, 
dispatchable power that is out there. Because it is 
dispatchable, renewable energy, there is a renewed interest in 
non-powered dams.
    The Chairman. What about pumped storage? I have had a 
fellow in my state, and we have tried like the dickens and 
could not get through the permitting process.
    Mr. Woolf. The permitting process is crazy. You have so 
many cooks in the kitchen, none of which have ultimate 
authority to issue the permits. But there is tremendous 
interest in pumped storage. There's over 50 gigawatts of pumped 
storage in the pipeline, but no new pumped storage has been 
built in over 20 years in this country, and we are not going to 
be able to keep the lights on with just wind and solar. We need 
more batteries. We need long-duration energy storage, which is 
what pumped storage is providing.
    The Chairman. I can only imagine the private sector, what 
they would go through if they had a brand new turbine they 
wanted to use, you know, a more efficient turbine. To go 
through the permitting process to get it implemented or get it 
basically installed--you are talking years.
    Mr. Woolf. It is years, and it has a huge chilling effect 
in investment.
    The Chairman. Do any of you have a recommendation for how 
we could accelerate this?
    Mr. Woolf. NHA does have a number of recommendations. A few 
are in our testimony. One of the most significant is that for 
those facilities that do not have significant environmental 
issues, particularly closed-loop or off-river pumped storage 
facilities, where they are not on the river, not having that 
environmental impact, or non-powered dams where the existing 
infrastructure--the civil work--already exists, we should have 
a streamlined permitting process, something within two years. 
You should not need a seven-or ten-year licensing process where 
you don't have those environmental impacts. The other 
critical----
    The Chairman. If they are taken to court, I mean, the court 
actions go on for years and years.
    Mr. Woolf. That is true, which is why we need to have the 
permit conditions limited to things that are directly related 
to the facility. It has become an open-ended process for 
addressing everything in the basin. Tax incentives so that they 
can compete with other zero-carbon technologies are also 
critical.
    The Chairman. Is hydropower one of the lowest-cost 
generators of electricity?
    Mr. Woolf. Absolutely. Particularly when you realize that 
the facilities can last 50 years, some of which are 
successfully operating over 100 years later, whereas wind and 
solar after 10 or 15 years need to be replaced. So the life 
cycle of hydropower makes it one of the best that exists.
    The Chairman. It is a shame we have not done more.
    Mr. Woolf. Agreed, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. I 
really appreciate your line of questioning and your thought 
process on this. So I would like to just ask all of the 
witnesses whether you believe hydropower is renewable energy, a 
clean source of energy, and a sustainable source of energy that 
helps reduce or avoid greenhouse gas emissions? A simple yes or 
no. Let's start with Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. Yes.
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, absolutely.
    Senator Barrasso. The others.
    Ms. Garson. Yes.
    Ms. Touton. Yes.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    So in light of all your answers to my first question, I 
would like to ask each of you about public and private-sector 
financing of hydroelectric projects. Specifically, do you 
believe that these projects here in the U.S. should enjoy the 
same access to financing that other renewable energy sources 
enjoy? In other words, do you believe hydropower projects here 
in the U.S. can and do meet what are known as environmental, 
social, and corporate governance, or the ESG standards? A 
simple yes or no and let's start with Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. Yes.
    Senator Barrasso. Mr. Corwin.
    Mr. Corwin. Yes.
    Senator Barrasso. The others.
    Ms. Touton. Certainly, investments in hydropower within the 
public-private sector are of interest to Reclamation.
    Senator Barrasso. Yes, one more.
    Ms. Garson. Yes.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you. All right, so, Mr. Corwin and 
then Mr. Woolf, the costs and timeline of licensing and 
relicensing hydropower projects are burdensome on developers 
and, more importantly, on consumers, and the Chairman made 
mention of this. A report by the Department of Energy released 
just a few months ago regarding the hydropower regulatory 
structure stated that, quote, ``The length and complexity of 
the licensing process is challenging for all stakeholder 
sectors.'' Now, I agree with that statement. I would take it a 
step further because I think any regulatory regime that takes 
nearly a decade to license or relicense critical infrastructure 
projects is in need of reform.
    What reforms would the two of you propose to federal 
permitting, licensing, and the relicensing process? Maybe start 
with Mr. Corwin.
    Mr. Corwin. Thank you, Senator, and yes, that was a good 
report that also points to some recommendations. DOE and the 
labs have done some really good work in recent years along 
these lines on these issues. One thing I would note, an example 
I use, the difference between regulating on the nuclear plant 
and the hydro plant is you have the Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission (NRC) as the clear lead agency, able to control the 
timelines and to enforce those timelines.
    The other recommendation, so clearly, establishing FERC as 
a lead agency, giving them authorization to control the 
timelines, requiring other agencies to use relevant, existing 
studies and not duplicate studies where you already have the 
work done. A lot of these are existing projects. We know what 
they do. And then, resolving agency disputes in a timely manner 
by referral to OMB and CEQ, and then allow trial-type hearings 
on these mandatory conditions so we can have resolution in a 
timely way.
    Senator Barrasso. And Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. I agree with Mr. Corwin. The role of state and 
federal resource agencies and tribal authorities needs to be 
respected, but so do the deadlines established by Congress, and 
so we need some process discipline in order to be able to make 
sure that the deadlines established are honored. And the second 
thing we need is to rein in the agency overrun. They are 
imposing requirements on our facilities that are not related to 
the facilities effects--building an amphitheater for the Boy 
Scouts or feeding a third party's livestock. There are examples 
that have nothing to do with the hydropower facility that are 
becoming mandatory conditions, and that needs to be reeled in.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Commissioner Touton, less than three percent of all the 
dams in the U.S. produce power. The Bureau of Reclamation 
previously identified about 200 dams that it felt are suitable 
for hydroelectric development. What are the principal obstacles 
inhibiting the Bureau from installing turbines on its non-
powered dams?
    Ms. Touton. Good morning, Ranking Member. Thank you for 
that question.
    With regard to your question about process in permitting, 
between our administrative changes and our changes in federal 
statutes, we have been able to decrease that processing time 
and increase interest awarding our Lease of Power of Privilege 
contracts 70 percent faster. Certainly, investments from 
developers--most of our hydropower is produced or the interest 
is produced by our stakeholders who operate and maintain those 
facilities. And so, their ability to access capital to be able 
to develop those are part of it. So we are working through that 
with them, recognizing the tremendous value of additional 
hydropower at existing federal facilities.
    Senator Barrasso. So the Chairman asked about all of the 
money that was in the bipartisan infrastructure bill in terms 
of how that money--it has already been appropriated. Will the 
Bureau use that money to install turbines on some of the non-
powered dams?
    Ms. Touton. One of the challenges that we have with our 
facilities, as I mentioned, is that they are aging. A 
significant portion of our money from the infrastructure law is 
for aging infrastructure. So certainly, advancements and 
enhancements to our structures will also be of service and of 
use to hydropower development.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. Woolf, as you know, legacy dams had a pretty 
devastating effect on salmon and steelhead populations in this 
country. So as we look to (1) build new dams, (2) modify 
existing dams, and in some cases remove legacy dams, what do 
you see as some of the opportunities to avoid the fisheries 
impacts of the past, or for that matter, improve opportunities 
for recovering fish populations?
    Mr. Woolf. Thank you for your question, Senator.
    There are really not a whole lot of major new dams being 
built in this country. That ended generations ago, maybe 40, 50 
years ago. So the real opportunities for growth now are in non-
powered dams where dams already exist. Let's better use them 
for their carbon potential. And there is off-river or closed-
loop pumped storage. Neither of those have the kind of 
environmental impacts that we may have seen from the big dams 
of 100 years ago. There has also been tremendous innovation in 
environmental improvements and stewardship. There are fish-
friendly turbines and fish bypass technologies that help ensure 
that migrating fish and others can survive. So this is not your 
grandfather's hydropower industry. We pride ourselves in being 
part of a climate solution and being sustainable.
    Senator Heinrich. I will let Senator King speak to what he 
was able to do in Maine, but I know there was an example there 
where they removed a legacy dam that was no longer providing 
services, opening up an enormous amount of habitat to 
fisheries, and at the same time, using that same moment to 
increase hydropower potential. So I think it is something we 
need to look more at, given how many fisheries we have lost in 
this country and the economic potential for recovering some of 
those.
    Ms. Touton, you mentioned unprecedented drought, and I do 
not want to quibble with your language, but drought is a 
temporary condition. There is substantial evidence that what we 
are experiencing right now in New Mexico and in other parts of 
the West--in the Colorado River Basin, in the Rio Grande River 
Basin--is maybe more accurately termed aridification. In other 
words, it is a permanent impact of the changing climate. We are 
simply not seeing the snowpacks and the precipitation that we 
used to see, and it does not look like it is coming back.
    In your position, how do you change your hydropower 
operations in response to lower storage levels, lower overall 
precipitation, and what is effectively a dwindling supply in a 
number of these basins?
    Ms. Touton. Good morning, Senator. Thank you for that 
question.
    As you mentioned, when we constructed these facilities over 
a century ago, it was on a premise that our biggest reservoir 
is snowpack, and that has significantly changed within the last 
few years, within the last decades of how much snowpack would 
we see and therefore, how much water comes into our reservoirs. 
When you have low elevations coupled with low flow, that 
significantly impacts hydropower. So some of the things that we 
are doing are installing new technologies, new turbines that 
take advantage and that can operate at lower lake levels, like 
we did at Hoover Dam. And certainly, conservation efforts to 
keep more water behind our reservoirs helps with hydropower 
production. But we cannot do this alone, and really look 
forward to working with our partners on how we continue to 
conserve water supplies but also protect our hydropower 
resources.
    Senator Heinrich. Can you talk a little bit about the 
reductions in capacity that you have seen as a result of the 
changing climate and what impacts those have on western states' 
economies?
    Ms. Touton. I will speak specifically to Glen Canyon Dam 
because that is a good example. It is at 27 percent of 
capacity, the lowest since filling, and we anticipate that this 
year we will generate the least amount of power since 1965 at 
the CRSP (Colorado River Storage Project) facilities. And 1965 
was when Glen Canyon came online. And so a lot of the 
challenges that we are seeing are, when your fuel is based on 
water, you need to be able to look at it from both the water 
supply and also hydropower perspective on how you keep those 
reservoirs up to protect both of those resources.
    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Woolf, New Mexico recently joined the 
Western Energy Imbalance Market, and we have seen that 
Bonneville Power plans to join, I think, this year, and WAPA 
joined in 2021. Are there opportunities to compensate 
hydropower's capability to play a greater role in maintaining 
reliability and balance on the grid?
    Mr. Woolf. Absolutely, and that is not currently being done 
now. Hydropower provides flexibility, it provides spinning 
reserves, black start capabilities, and it is not properly 
compensated for providing those grid reliability services.
    Senator Heinrich. Whose job is it to figure out that market 
structure? Is that a FERC thing? Is that a Congress thing? 
Like, who should be focusing on creating a market to compensate 
those values?
    Mr. Woolf. Yes, I think it goes to keeping the lights on, 
so it is all of our jobs, but it is in organized markets, it is 
these regional transmission organizations that have that 
primary responsibility.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    We have Senator Daines.
    Senator Daines. Chairman Manchin, thank you, as well to 
Ranking Member Barrasso.
    Montana is one of the largest hydropower producers in the 
United States. Hydropower provides nearly half of all the 
electricity generated in Montana. Hydropower provides clean, 
reliable, affordable energy. It is important that we continue 
to increase hydro production as well as the jobs and the 
revenues that come from it. And that is why, just yesterday, I 
introduced the Sun River Hydropower Authorization Act, which 
will allow hydropower production on Bureau of Reclamation dams 
in the Sun River project, including the Gibson Dam near 
Augusta, Montana.
    In August of last year, when Greenfields Irrigation 
District, who operates the Gibson Dam, asked me to introduce 
legislation to authorize hydropower on the Sun River project, 
we got to work. The proposed project would create good jobs--
high-paying jobs--and generate $2 million per year for the 
irrigation district. This will also help bolster and sustain 
irrigation for the 750 farmers, ranchers, and water users in 
the region. This is a clear win-win.
    Commissioner Touton, the Sun River project is under the 
Bureau of Reclamation. Could you explain how powering non-
powered dams like the Gibson Dam helps generate jobs, revenue, 
and sustains irrigation?
    Ms. Touton. Good morning, Senator. Thank you for that 
question. You know, Greenfields Irrigation District is a great 
example of the types of partnerships we have in developing new 
hydropower at our facilities. In fact, they are a transferred 
work operator, which means they operate and maintain that 
project and have developed small conduit hydropower, which is 
roughly equivalent to $180,000 per year of revenue that they 
immediately use to pay for operation and maintenance and 
enhancement of that project. So we certainly see a benefit 
there and look forward to working with you on your legislation.
    Senator Daines. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Corwin, the power produced at the Gibson Dam will run 
through the rural electric cooperatives in Montana. How will 
increasing hydropower help local Montana cooperatives as well 
as the energy consumers?
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, again, it is a great resource to add to 
any energy mix because of those qualities--emission free and 
flexible--and I know there are also with that cooperative in 
Montana some synergies on being able to enhance the 
transmission lines needed as well. So I think there's a good 
win-win situation there.
    Senator Daines. Thank you.
    I am really concerned--I would say very concerned--about 
recent calls to breach hydropower dams on the Columbia and 
Snake River systems. The hydropower produced by these dams 
provides important, affordable, renewable energy to western 
Montana and any breach of dams would negatively impact Montana.
    Mr. Corwin and Mr. Woolf, can you elaborate on why 
breaching hydropower dams harms communities, jobs, and puts 
strain on electric production and the reliability of the grid? 
Start with Mr. Corwin.
    Mr. Corwin. Thank you, Senator.
    With that example, specifically, you are talking about over 
2,500 megawatts of total capacity, which is that flexible 
capacity we were discussing earlier, so critical to balancing 
the grid, and it has come in handy at times. It is about 1,000 
average megawatts, which is enough to power, on average, a very 
large city, like the size of Seattle. So there is a lot of, 
again, clean, flexible capability right there. You also have, 
as I mentioned earlier, the other values, economically and 
around the community tied to that specific part of the system 
for irrigation, navigation, recreation--a lot of benefits that 
are at stake there.
    Senator Daines. Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. There may be circumstances where breaching non-
powered dams that no longer serve a purpose will make sense, 
but where you have powered dams that are providing power to the 
community, I think you have to answer a few key questions 
before--particularly for the Snake River, you have nameplate 
3,000 megawatts of carbon-free generation. So where are they 
going to get the replacement power? How is it going to be 
reliable? Because you can't do it with just wind, solar, or 
batteries. What is the economic impact on household rates? How 
are the communities that rely on those for jobs, for 
agriculture? And then the environmental impact--we know that 
climate change is the biggest threat to salmon in the region.
    Senator Daines. So when you take a look at the grid and 
power creation, power production, it is not about average, it 
is about peak. And according to recent projections, the Pacific 
Northwest may face shortages of power supply to meet peak load 
conditions. If we breach hydropower dams that provide strong, 
baseload energy, that possibility becomes a reality and Montana 
may see the rolling blackouts that we have seen happen in other 
states.
    Mr. Corwin, Mr. Woolf, how is hydropower important to 
meeting peak energy demands and how could reducing baseload 
power, like hydro and coal, cause a shortage of power supply?
    Mr. Corwin. Thank you, Senator.
    Yes, as you know, you already have some of the coal plants 
scheduled to come offline. So you are already going to be down 
on that baseload capability in the West. At the same time, you 
have an interesting shape of peak loads, especially when it is 
really hot in the afternoon--big peak--just as the solar energy 
that has come online is coming offline in the evening. So we 
have already seen this where it has been right up against the 
edge in the Western Interconnection, and hydropower being able 
to provide spinning reserves is incredibly important to be able 
to balance that at the peak, as you mentioned.
    Senator Daines. Mr. Woolf, I am about out of time. I will 
probably have to have your answer be brief. Thank you. Go 
ahead.
    Mr. Woolf. Sure. Hydropower is the dispatchable renewable. 
So given the resource constraints in the Pacific Northwest, it 
is essential to keep the lights on.
    Senator Daines. All right, thank you. I appreciate that.
    The Chairman. Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, 
Chairman Manchin and Senator Barrasso for this very important 
hearing. As the most hydro-reliant state in the union, I can 
tell you--I can sit here all day and we could have a very broad 
discussion, but I really appreciate the witnesses mentioning 
the work that Senator Murkowski and I and Senator Wyden have 
been doing on hydro, and the tax credits, and how essential it 
is.
    I have a question for all four of you, and if you could 
just take a minute, each of you, to answer, that would be 
great.
    Mr. Corwin, how important is it to have the direct-pay 
option for any tax credit, and how essential is it to have 
municipal and cooperative utilities take advantage of the tax 
credit?
    Mr. Woolf, if you could talk about why the production tax 
credit, specifically, and what we need to do to keep that 38 
percent of hydro and pumped storage capacity that is about to 
expire, and expand on why that is so critical?
    Commissioner Touton, if you could talk about--my colleague 
was mentioning this aridification issue. How important is it to 
get the aquifer recharge program going? What number should we 
be looking at to put into aquifers since we are having less 
snowpack, and how does that help the system?
    And Ms. Garson, what can we do, and how are you looking at 
the value of hydro for integration with renewables into the 
grid, including pumped storage?
    Mr. Corwin. Well, thank you, Senator and once again, thank 
you for your work on this because it is very important, and the 
direct-pay piece, specifically, is incredibly important if the 
goal is to have a market-wide, industry-wide approach to 
promote and encourage investment in hydropower, which is sorely 
needed, and there is a long backlog. Then making sure that the 
30 percent of utilities that are consumer-owned are able to use 
that tool is important. Otherwise, you are missing a large 
piece of it. And in the State of Washington, as you know, it is 
a lot more than 30 percent that are consumer-owned. So it is 
very important to the effort of getting this work done on these 
projects to maintain this capacity.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
    Mr. Woolf.
    Mr. Woolf. Thank you, Senator Cantwell, for championing the 
existing hydropower fleet. There is a now-expired tax credit 
for new development at non-powered existing dams, but there are 
no tax credits to preserve and maintain the existing carbon-
free fleet. So that is why the tax credit that you and Senator 
Murkowski have been championing is so critical to keep that 
fleet alive and operating. And we thank Senator Wyden for 
including a portion of that in Build Back Better to encourage 
environmental investments in the existing fleet.
    Senator Cantwell. Ms. Touton--Commissioner Touton, Sorry.
    Ms. Touton. Good morning, Senator.
    As we see changing conditions across the West, we have to 
use all those tools. So thank you to you and Senator Risch for 
the inclusion of the aquifer storage program as part of the 
infrastructure law, because if you are able to store it in the 
ground, that is less water than you might be reliant on behind 
the dam and it provides more stability within the region, and 
certainly a benefit to Washington State. We are working through 
the specifics of that program now, and I am happy to follow up 
with you and your staff as we finalize numbers.
    Senator Cantwell. So we are talking about more than tens of 
millions, right?
    Ms. Touton. Perhaps, Senator, absolutely. There is 
certainly a demand.
    Senator Cantwell. Okay.
    Ms. Garson, how important it is to get all this integrated 
into the grid of the future, particularly as it relates to 
hydro and pumped storage?
    Ms. Garson. It is critical. We have been conducting 
analysis with the National Renewable Energy Laboratory to 
better understand how much additional wind and solar can be 
brought on.
    Senator Cantwell. At PNNL, right? At Pacific Northwest 
National Laboratories?
    Ms. Garson. PNNL is also helping us do an analysis about 
the alternative values of hydropower. So not just capturing how 
much electricity generation could we bring online, but what are 
the other values derived. PNNL is also working with us on our 
pumped storage valuation analysis, which we actually applied to 
the Goldendale facility in the State of Washington to better 
understand and articulate the values of pumped storage projects 
for developers to have better ease of access either to 
investment or to work with regulators who advance pumped 
storage.
    So we are working on a myriad of analyses that show both 
the quantitative measures of additional variable renewable 
energy that can be brought online and to better articulate the 
entirety of the values, including recreation and economic 
benefits that hydropower provides.
    Senator Cantwell. Will that be a national analysis?
    Ms. Garson. The alternative values analysis will be a 
national analysis. We are doing stakeholder engagement and 
workshops right now with PNNL and Idaho National Laboratory and 
the valuation project is already out and is available to 
developers nationwide for pumped storage.
    Senator Cantwell. Mr. Chairman, I think this will be so 
helpful to other states, you know, on understanding the value 
that we can get out of hydro. It is just one more level of 
efficiency--using pumped storage. Thank you.
    The Chairman. How much electricity do you get?
    Senator Cantwell. Well, 62 percent right now of our 
electricity is generated by hydro. It is down a little bit from 
70, probably, 71 or 72 percent over the last decade or so. For 
us, that is not a bad idea given the fact that we have 
challenges with the hydro system and less snowpack. So it gives 
us a little more flexibility.
    The Chairman. Have any been closed because of relicensing 
or are you having any challenges there?
    Senator Cantwell. Senator Craig and I, more than a decade 
ago--whenever Senator Craig was here, so it tells you how long 
ago it was--worked on a program on hydro relicensing that we 
got passed into law. Basically, it allowed the participants to 
come to the table and bring up issues earlier in the process 
because you have so many agencies that were participants. That 
way you did not have two agencies agree and then now you get 
down the road and a third agency says, ``Oh, I do not like 
this.'' So basically, it allowed everybody to put their cards 
on the table early without penalty and I think it was an 
improvement in the system, but certainly we could discuss more 
about the fact that the tribes are willing to look at some of 
these issues.
    I think it is a very important aspect of Mr. Woolf's work, 
if they are willing, you know, to discuss what is a smoother 
process. But obviously, these are huge resources in the 
Northwest, I mean, but I do think--and I do not know what all 
the other issues are that Mr. Woolf could probably address--but 
I do think that it is an underused resource in general, but we 
also have environmental impact. So you have to figure out all 
of this and the best way to do that is to dialogue, get all 
those issues on the table early.
    The Chairman. Senator Lankford.
    Senator Lankford. Senator Manchin, thank you.
    Senator Cantwell, I would be glad to be able to partner 
with you to be able to look at some of those areas and the 
relicensing as well. I thank you for your work in the past on 
that. You know there are obvious issues on this as well. 
Oklahoma has ten hydro facilities, and that is a small dot of 
what you have in the Northwest for hydro facilities. But we use 
hydro as well, and it has been a good source of power, but our 
challenge has been the relicensing process.
    Actually, we have some of our facilities that took five 
years from when they first dreamed of doing it to when they 
were done with the construction. Those same facilities now are 
going through relicensing. It is eight years just to be able to 
relicense a facility that only took five years to build at the 
very beginning. And so there have been some real challenges. 
And some of that has been that agencies do not follow FERC's 
guidelines, and it is one of the areas I want to be able to ask 
Mr. Woolf about as well, is that FERC will set a guideline of 
when agencies have to give a response and agencies say, ``We'll 
give you a response when we feel like it'' and are not 
following through on those timelines. And so giving agencies a 
set structure of when they have to actually respond would also 
be helpful, I think.
    Senator Cantwell. Okay, happy to work with you, Senator.
    Senator Lankford. That would be great. Glad to be able to 
do that.
    Mr. Woolf, let me come back to you on that. It is now 
longer to be able to relicense a hydro facility than it is a 
nuclear facility, to be able to relicense. It has grown to be 
absurd in the process. What are the big rocks that you would 
look at that are really driving this very lengthy process for 
relicensing?
    Mr. Woolf. I think there are two big problems, one of which 
you just mentioned, which is there is no process discipline. 
State and natural resource agencies and tribes have critical 
roles, but if they do not abide by the Congressional deadlines, 
there is no consequence. FERC cannot do anything about it. 
There is no--you can't play football if everyone is a 
quarterback. The second challenge is that some of these 
resource agencies are going far beyond project effects. It is 
absolutely legitimate to require a facility to address the 
effects of the facility, but they see this is as the only 
mechanism they have to address unrelated issues, and over the 
decades, it has gone to just absurd lengths.
    Senator Lankford. So let me ask a more specific question on 
that as well. Do you have recommendations out there for what 
you would look at to say how you address this whole issue of 
some federal entities saying ``I am not going to follow the 
guidelines of FERC?'' FERC sets a timeline. Other entities are 
like, ``We'll do it when we feel like it'' and it may stretch 
on forever. Is there some way to be able to do that that you're 
making a recommendation on?
    Mr. Woolf. So I do have recommendations in my written 
testimony, but I am excited to be able to say that we have been 
talking with the environmental and river community and we hope 
to be able to bring a package of reforms to the Federal Power 
Act to this Committee in February--hopefully in time to be able 
to move something in a bipartisan way this Congress.
    Senator Lankford. That shouldn't be a problem. This 
Congress has been great at moving bipartisan things, so that 
shouldn't be an issue.
    Let me ask another question on this. You bring up some of 
the other things--that every time the relicensing happens it 
seems to draw on every issue in the entire region in the 
process. That is a discouragement to doing additional hydro 
that is out there. We have 90,000 or so locations in the 
country that could do hydro, but only a fraction of them 
actually do. Do you see that as some facilities and locations 
that would say, ``We do not want to go through and actually put 
hydro in this area because it also affects everything else in 
the area?'' Do you see that as an ongoing discouragement that 
should be addressed?
    Mr. Woolf. Absolutely. Particularly for low-hanging fruit 
where the dam already exists, that doesn't have significant 
environmental impact, or off-river or closed-loop pumped 
storage does not have significant environmental impact. So we 
are recommending a two-year licensing process, start to finish, 
for those facilities as they should not be that complicated.
    Senator Lankford. So why do we see some of these locations 
that have additional capacity not actually expanding? We see 
that in Corps areas, especially where there is additional 
capability but not actually an expansion to add additional 
power. Why would that be?
    Mr. Woolf. Three reasons. First is the licensing process 
that they would have to go through. The second is the lack of 
tax parity. They get incentivized to invest in other zero-
carbon technologies. And then third, the markets themselves. 
They don't get paid for the flexibility and the various grid 
reliability services they provide. So it is a real market 
failure.
    Senator Lankford. Do we have an issue with startup costs on 
this as well? Has anyone voiced that and said, ``Okay, we still 
don't have enough money to be able to do that expansion, so we 
are just not going to do it?''
    Mr. Woolf. Absolutely. It's all upfront costs because the 
resource is free. The water is there.
    Senator Lankford. Right.
    Mr. Woolf. So it's all upfront startup costs, which is a 
challenge.
    Senator Lankford. But obviously, it pays for itself over 
time, with just actually income from that coming out.
    Mr. Woolf. And these facilities last 50, sometimes 100 
years, so they are amazing investments.
    Senator Lankford. Do you see an issue that Congress needs 
to address how we handle the upfront costs and the payback on 
that, because often in our appropriation process we will 
actually say, ``Okay, if it doesn't pay for itself in a year, 
then we're not going to be able to do it.'' And so literally, 
you do not allocate money to something when other bonds, other 
issues actually do pay for themselves over time.
    Mr. Woolf. We need to think of hydropower like other 
infrastructure, like bridges and roads. It shapes communities. 
It lasts for generations. We can't expect to finance it like a 
wind or solar project that are going to have a short life span.
    Senator Lankford. Okay.
    Mr. Chairman, may I ask one additional question? And I am 
over time.
    I have this understanding. I heard this rumor as well, that 
you might be from Tulsa, Oklahoma.
    Mr. Woolf. I am.
    Senator Lankford. Is that true or false?
    Mr. Woolf. That is true.
    Senator Lankford. You still live in Tulsa, Oklahoma?
    Mr. Woolf. I do not, unfortunately.
    Senator Lankford. There are homes for sale in Tulsa. You're 
welcome to be able to come back any time. So thank you.
    [Laughter.]
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Woolf. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Now we have Senator King, by virtual. Senator King, are you 
still there?
    Senator King. I am. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And 
I want the record to show that I do have a tie on, but I am 
wearing this sweater today in honor of my constituents in 
northern Maine. I talked to one this morning. It was 20 below 
zero absolute temperature and 39 below with the wind chill. 
So----
    The Chairman. You would feel right at home here in this 
Committee room right now.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator King. Oh yes, I just wanted to express solidarity 
to my constituents.
    First, I do want to emphasize--and I think it would be 
worth the Committee's while to really do some work on pumped 
storage. Storage is the key to a carbon-free energy future. And 
batteries, as we know, are an important part of that, but they 
involve mining and rare minerals and rare earth and all kinds 
of other issues, and a lot of technology to be developed. 
Pumped storage is a clean alternative, and I think it is one 
that deserves some additional attention in terms of permitting 
and support, in terms of tax credits and those kinds of things.
    Second, on the issue of permitting, an appalling 39 years 
ago I began in the hydro industry as a lawyer working on 
permitting. And I have, in a sense, been waiting for this 
hearing for 39 years. And here are a couple of the issues. One 
is, I believe there needs to be a strong lead agency. And 
obviously, that agency is FERC. But the important word is 
``strong.'' And as Mr. Woolf has testified, they have to have 
the ability, and Congress has to have the ability to set 
deadlines and mean it and have those deadlines mean something. 
This idea that it takes longer to permit a hydro project than a 
nuclear plant is absolutely preposterous. And so a lead agency, 
one-stop shopping, that can control the process and who can set 
reasonable deadlines, I think, is incredibly important.
    The other thing that I observed at the time is that, and I 
suspect this is still true, that FERC is reluctant to make 
decisions when there are conflicts between agencies or between 
the developer and the agency. FERC basically says, ``go and 
work it out and then we will bless what you agree to.'' The 
problem is that creates a kind of veto power in various parts 
of the system. FERC really, I think--and maybe I am behind the 
times and they are much better at this--but my sense is that 
FERC would rather have a settlement than make a decision. FERC 
has to be ready to make those decisions on a timely basis.
    Mr. Corwin, am I correct about that assumption?
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, that's a good description. Having their 
ability to make a strong decision and be the strong lead agency 
and hold to timelines would really change the process and make 
it a lot more manageable.
    Senator King. And Mr. Woolf, how about this? How about an 
expedited permitting process for repowering or powering 
existing dams that did not have power before because the 
ecological impact of that dam has already taken place and the 
incremental environmental impact of powering that dam is 
insubstantial? Should we think about that as a special category 
that would be entitled to some kind of expedited permitting and 
studies and those kinds of things?
    Mr. Woolf. Yes, expedited permitting for existing non-
powered dams is a great idea, a great way to get more carbon-
free generation on the grid.
    Senator King. And the dams are already there. The 
environmental impact of the dam has already taken place. One of 
the things that used to frustrate me was that when you are 
permitting a hydro project, it is treated as if it were a strip 
mall and none of the--not that I have anything against strip 
malls--but none of the environmental benefits are taken into 
account. Every form of energy has some impact. There is no free 
lunch in energy. But it seems to me that projects that have a 
substantial environmental impact should get some credit, if you 
will, for that gain to the environment, but often in hydropower 
licensing situations that is not the case.
    Mr. Corwin, do you agree?
    Mr. Corwin. I agree, and in the instance you used, where 
there is already an existing dam, if you have the proponent of 
a license walk away because they can't get through the process, 
you haven't improved the environmental conditions in that area 
either. You still have the dam there.
    Senator King. One final question, and I know I am at the 
end of my time, Mr. Chairman. One of the problems with 
developing hydropower is that it is capital intensive and fuel 
free, but it is competing against natural gas, which is a very 
low capital investment, probably a fourth or a fifth of what it 
costs to develop a hydropower project. But it has an energy 
cost--a fuel cost that goes out into the future. The market 
does not really recognize that now, and that is why I think I 
agree with Senator Cantwell. We need some special upfront 
incentives in order to try to get these capital-intensive 
projects, which will be there for 40, 50, maybe even 100 years, 
but right now they cannot compete for capital because of the 
high demand upfront.
    Mr. Woolf, is that your experience?
    Mr. Woolf. Absolutely, and it's particularly made more 
challenging if every other form of zero-carbon technology is 
subsidized and hydropower is not. It makes it an impossible 
investment climate.
    Senator King. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think this is a worthy 
area for our attention. I thank you for holding this hearing.
    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you very much, Senator 
King.
    Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Thank you 
both, Mr. Chairman and the Ranking Member, for holding today's 
hearing. As you all know, 100 percent of my State of Nevada is 
experiencing some level of drought, and in many locations 
across the West the ability to generate electricity is 
incumbent upon the availability of water. So Commissioner 
Touton, let me start with you. Nevada is a beneficiary of water 
in the Colorado River Basin. In fact, over two million Nevadans 
get their water from the Colorado River. But despite only 
receiving 0.3 million acre-feet of annual allocation out of the 
16.5 million acre-feet allocated across the Basin--and that's 
the lowest of any in the Colorado River Basin--southern Nevada 
has been at the forefront of implementing conservation measures 
to help keep more water in Lake Mead for future water use, but 
also to keep enough water in the lake to generate electricity, 
which we have been talking about today.
    So Commissioner, my question to you is one, what should we 
be considering for those of us that utilize that water along 
the Colorado River, but also important for the electricity that 
is generated from the Colorado River? And could you also talk 
about--I understand you were in Las Vegas when the Colorado 
Water River Users Association came together and signed the 
agreement. I think it is referred to as the 500+ Plan. There is 
a nexus between the drought that we are seeing and the 
electricity we want to try to generate through hydropower. So 
can you talk a little bit about that and what we need to be 
aware of and considering, and how that work that we need to do 
is also important for us to bring the states into this 
conversation as well?
    Ms. Touton. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto, good morning.
    When you look at hydropower, there are two components to 
it, the elevation at the reservoir or that head, as we talk 
about, and the flow rate, or the amount of water that goes to 
the turbines. What we are seeing in the Colorado River is 
record low capacity, so low head, and subsequently low water 
going to those turbines. So that has immediate impacts on 
hydropower production. And so the plan that you mentioned, a 
partnership with the Southern Nevada Water Authority and the 
State of Nevada, California and Arizona--the 500+ Plan--says 
that we need to find, within 2022 and 2023, 500,000 acre-feet, 
so a collective million acre-feet of water and prop up Lake 
Mead. So that helps on two fronts for hydropower. It helps keep 
levels up so we have a higher head and certainly, it helps with 
flow rates because you have more water behind the reservoir. As 
we work with our partners, specifically our preference 
customers in the Western Area Power Administration, investment 
in new technology, like low head help, it really is looking at 
the water supply because it is the fuel that helps to also 
answer our challenges of hydropower.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Commissioner, do you feel confident 
that the users along the Colorado River, particularly the Lower 
Basin states that you just talked about--that everybody is in 
agreement and understands the necessity to come together to 
conserve that water?
    Ms. Touton. Yes. Not only are we in agreement, we have 
committed to significant financial resources. The Bureau of 
Reclamation has already found $50 million of the $100 million 
cost share that we have with the states, and the states have 
gone to their boards and have brought those monies to bear as 
well. So we are ready to work.
    Senator Cortez Masto. And then the work that we did in the 
bipartisan infrastructure package, how does that benefit what 
we are talking about today?
    Ms. Touton. First, there is a significant investment and 
there is part of the drought contingency plan. So thank you for 
that. And certainly, the large-scale water recycling that we 
are hoping to bring online soon is another tool, because if you 
are developing water somewhere else, you are saving that water 
in a reservoir. And so there are direct correlations to 
conservation and efficiencies within the system that translate 
into more water behind reservoirs, and therefore, more 
generation capacity for hydropower.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    And so let me ask both Commissioner Touton and Acting 
Director Garson, can you provide an update on current efforts 
and coordination with other agencies to address today's unique 
challenges and keep our dams and hydropower facilities safe? 
There is concern around, obviously, cybersecurity and hacking. 
What work is being done to address this issue to make sure we 
are protecting that important piece of hydropower and 
electricity to our communities?
    Either Commissioner Touton or Acting Director Garson.
    Ms. Touton. Sure. I can go first. One of the significant 
partnerships we have is the Federal Hydropower Memorandum of 
Understanding. It helps for us to coordinate both on the 
technological side, but also permitting, among other things. 
Reclamation has to remain vigilant as far as cybersecurity, and 
so we are continually working with DOE, we are working with the 
Army Corps, exchanging best practices, knowing that the bad 
actors are always there, and even when you feel like you are at 
the forefront of cybersecurity, you have to continually improve 
because they're getting better at going after our facilities.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    Ms. Garson. Yes, in addition to the Memorandum of 
Understanding we are working with FEMA on its dam safety 
program and trying to leverage some of the analysis and work 
that we have through HydroSource at our Oak Ridge National 
Laboratory to provide the analysis needed to inform an 
interagency working group that has been looking at the 
interconnects between cybersecurity and safety, of which they 
are obviously incredibly interrelated.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    Thank you again, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman [presiding]. Now we have Senator Kelly.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
holding this hearing. This issue of hydropower is critical to 
our state, but as we all realize, and as Senator Cortez Masto 
spoke about, this 22-year drought that we have been 
experiencing in the West is connected with our ability to 
generate electricity, especially at the Hoover Dam. So 
Commissioner Touton, I wanted to follow up on the line of 
questioning that my colleague from Nevada had about the 500+ 
Plan that was finalized last month. As you and we all realize, 
this plan is going to help water users in Arizona, Nevada, and 
California conserve about one million acre-feet of water in 
Lake Mead through 2023, 500,000 acre-feet in 2022, and then 
again the following year. That is a lot of water. It is not 
enough to prevent future drought restrictions, but it does buy 
some important time to deploy some more mitigation measures. 
And this matters because, as the Senator from Nevada spoke 
about, Lake Mead is home to the Hoover Dam, which produces 
electricity for millions of people in Arizona and across the 
Southwest.
    Right now, as of today, if we were to check, I think the 
water level in Lake Mead is about 1,066 feet above sea level, 
but it is going down. If levels fall below 950 feet above sea 
level, the dam will stop generating electricity, which is about 
116 feet from where it is today. So Ms. Touton, how soon does 
Reclamation estimate that Lake Mead could reach this dead pool? 
Well, reach the dead pool elevation, which is in the 
neighborhood of 800 and something feet. So the dam stops 
generating electricity at 950, but at 850 or so, I think we 
wind up with a dead pool, where we cannot get any more water 
out of it. Do you have estimates for when those two things will 
happen?
    Ms. Touton. Current modeling does not project Lake Mead to 
decline to dead pool, as you mentioned, Senator, within the 
next five years. And we see that there is a three-percent 
chance that Lake Mead will decline to minimum power pool as 
early as 2026. That is certainly not to say that 1,066 is not a 
scary number for us. It is certainly within the capacity of 
Lake Mead, you know, that is about 34 percent of capacity. So 
we are at historically low levels at Lake Mead now.
    Senator Kelly. Earlier you mentioned that the Drought 
Contingency Plan--there is funding from that--but there is also 
funding in the bipartisan infrastructure bill for the 500+ 
Plan. How much money can we use out of the bipartisan 
infrastructure bill at this point for the 500+ Plan?
    Ms. Touton. So thank you to Congress. We were able to, 
within our FY21 reprogramming and supplemental funding for 
FY22, have cash on hand for $50 million of the $100 million for 
the 500+ Plan. So we are ready to work on that portion of it. 
We are currently finalizing our spending plan, Senator, and it 
is in review with the highest levels of the Federal Government, 
hopefully to get to you soon. But the $250 million there for 
the Lower Basin certainly will be one of the areas that we look 
at for the additional $50 million for the 500+ Plan, which then 
leaves another $200 million for work within the Basin.
    Senator Kelly. I want to talk a second, since my colleague 
from Colorado just arrived, are Upper Basin states contributing 
resources and amounts similar to the 500+ Plan?
    Ms. Touton. Well, we are currently working with our 
partners in the Upper Basin states that we just announced. We, 
Reclamation, just announced changes in releases from Lake 
Powell throughout the year to be able to continue to protect 
levels at Powell and we certainly have resources in hand to 
work with partners in the Upper Basin states when they are 
ready.
    Senator Kelly. Well, thank you, Commissioner.
    This is a critical issue, not just for Lower Basin states, 
for Upper Basin states, and for the entire Southwest, but for 
the country, in fact. This time of year especially, a large 
percentage--nearly all of the green leafy vegetables that 
people eat across the country come from the State of Arizona 
from the Lower Basin. That water that comes from the Colorado 
River is critical for farmers to be able to grow that portion 
of our food supply. So I encourage you and the Secretary to 
continue to lean a little bit on the Upper Basin and all 
Colorado River states to work together on this critical issue, 
and apologies for going over my time, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Senator Murkowski, are you ready?
    Senator Murkowski. Sure.
    The Chairman. Okay.
    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
the opportunity to be talking about hydropower and its 
extraordinary benefits. It is something that I think has been 
overlooked and is oftentimes just kind of the unsung, just 
chugging along making things happen. Certainly, for us in 
Alaska, it is an extraordinary source of renewable, clean, 
environmentally safe energy. So I know that we need to be doing 
more to work to facilitate the build-out around our country. In 
Alaska we hear repeatedly the concerns from many of our smaller 
operators who feel almost overwhelmed with the permitting 
challenges, the licensing challenges, and the length of the 
construction process.
    So I know that the legislation that Senator Cantwell and I 
have introduced has been commented on that would create the 
federal tax incentives to encourage the safety, the 
environmental, and the resilience upgrades for our hydropower 
dams. So hopefully we will be able to work with all of you and 
work with those in the Administration to try to advance that, 
and I would basically put out an ask that as we are looking to 
again do more when it comes to our hydropower resources that we 
can count on the agencies to work to reduce these barriers to 
deploy more of our hydroelectric capacity and certainly, our 
smaller hydro.
    It seems to me we just have not been able to talk openly 
about the different ways that we create energy through our 
hydropower. Not everything is a big Bonneville or Hoover Lake. 
So much of it, in my state, is the small run-of-river projects, 
the RivGen project that we have in Igiugig is a great little 
example of how you can take smaller solutions and make a big 
difference. When you take a village off of diesel, you are 
making an extraordinary difference in the quality of life and 
the sustainability of that community. I want to make sure that 
we are doing just exactly that. I would hope that we could do 
more to demonstrate to the public that projects like this are 
safe, that they can be constructed without detriment to the 
environment and, in many of our cases, without impact to our 
fisheries, and that is exactly what we are doing in Alaska.
    I want to get to my question here, and this is for Ms. 
Garson. In your testimony you mentioned that in the Energy Act 
of 2020 Congress expanded the definition of qualified 
hydroelectric facility to include an existing dam or conduit 
constructed in an area of inadequate electric service, as 
determined by the Secretary. The RFI that DOE released last 
July proposes to limit the definition by stating, ``or where 
the cost of electricity is significantly above the typical 
residential electric cost.''
    So what I have heard from folks back home is that with the 
inclusion of the word ``significantly'' it departs from the 
law. It is really going to limit the program's reach in Alaska, 
where our typical residential electric rates are generally 
higher than in the Lower 48. So I would like your commitment to 
work with me and my office to ensure that the final rulemaking 
here is not so overly restrictive that it shuts out many of the 
communities that I believe it is intended to support. So I 
would like your commitment that we can work on that.
    Ms. Garson. Yes, Senator, and there are actually three 
different qualifications for inadequate electric service. One 
is lack of access to an interconnected transmission system, 
which Alaska is not connected to the Eastern or Western 
Interconnection or ERCOT. So in our interpretation, Alaskan 
communities and Alaskan projects--nearly all if they meet the 
other qualifications, would be eligible under 242. But I would 
be happy to meet with you and discuss more about our 
implementation and our rulemaking process.
    Senator Murkowski. Good. Well, I would welcome that. I 
would look forward to that.
    In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I want to submit for the 
record comments from the Alaska Independent Power Producers 
Association, Renewable Juneau, and Juneau Hydropower. They were 
submitted in response to the RFI from the Department of Energy.
    [Comments regarding the Department of Energy RFI follow:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Murkowski. But again, everything that this 
Committee can do to work on the permitting issues, the 
licensing issues, the cost issues, the length of time, this is 
going to be extraordinarily important. I am hopeful that we 
will be able to work through this Congress to get this 
provision that Senator Cantwell and I have been working on. I 
think that will be a big step forward. So I am getting lots of 
good positive nods from our witnesses and hope that those of 
you that are appearing virtually today can note the enthusiasm 
for the direction that we are taking.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Hickenlooper.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank all of 
you for your work on this. Thank you, Chairman, for bringing 
together this panel.
    And now that my esteemed colleague, Senator Kelly, has left 
and I can talk a little real truth about the Lower Basin 
states, and how this is going to result--I am just kidding.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Hickenlooper. We have had frequent constructive 
conversations on the challenges we are going to be facing.
    Commissioner Touton, given that the projections demonstrate 
the very legitimate and real possibility that Lake Powell is 
going to go below the minimum level required to produce power 
under possible hydrologic scenarios literally, possibly, as 
early as next winter, and I am happy to report that the 
mountains in Colorado are about 30 or 40 percent above average, 
which is a great data point, but it is only a data point. I 
wanted to see if, Commissioner, you could talk a little bit 
about how the Bureau of Reclamation--when you are looking at 
how you avoid this sort of a situation where we have, clearly, 
very serious negative outcomes, and at what point do you try to 
prepare for those situations? And where is the inflection point 
where you begin to focus more on preparing or dealing with, 
rather than avoiding?
    Ms. Touton. Thank you, Senator. Good morning. Certainly, I 
think we are at the point where we are doing both. The levels 
at Lake Powell--we are operating in conditions that we have 
never operated in before since the construction and bringing 
online of this facility. And so the first thing we did that we 
announced last week was we adjusted the releases from Powell. 
The volume stays the same of how much goes out, but how much--
we varied it between months to be able to protect, as you said, 
critical times in the power pool. So that is step one. But that 
is a lot more to do, and certainly one of the things that we 
are doing to prepare--this is part of our supplemental funding. 
We have allocated funds to look at the operations of the 
facilities under these dry conditions to better understand them 
and how we can move forward should these conditions persist. We 
are very happy about the snow, but as you said, it is one data 
point.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Touton. It is like, you know, not getting money to your 
bank account for a year and then all of sudden getting a 
paycheck for a month. So we are still at extreme deficits, but 
we are not going to complain about getting more snow.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, and I could not agree 
more. It is about--maybe it is two paychecks, but not anything 
that is going to solve our problems.
    Mr. Woolf and Ms. Garson, as you know, we are poised for a 
remarkable build-out of clean energy, especially in wind and 
solar in the coming decade. I think hydro can play a critical 
role in that build-out and be a big part of the clean resource 
mix, all the more so because it does complement wind and solar 
in certain key respects in terms of generation and storage. Can 
you discuss a little bit about how that complementary 
relationship really does help other renewable energy sources as 
wind and solar begin to grow?
    I don't know who--you want to go first?
    Mr. Woolf. I'll jump in.
    We think of hydropower as the renewable resource that 
enables other renewable resources. One example of this is, just 
in California, even during the recent drought, hydropower is 
able to ramp up in those afternoon periods as the sun is 
setting, hydropower ramps up to keep the lights on. So we 
really view hydropower as providing an essential complement to 
the other clean energy technologies.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, absolutely.
    Do you want to add something to that, Ms. Garson?
    Ms. Garson. Yes, I will say that one of the things that we 
are actually doing with the National Renewable Energy 
Laboratory in Colorado is looking at specifically the 
integration factor that could be enabled by hydropower. So 
specifically quantifying how much additional solar or wind 
could you have either at a national or localized level by 
having hydropower serve in a more flexible operating 
environment to provide load balancing and other critical grid 
services.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Great, and I appreciate that shout 
out for NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, 
something we are very proud of in Colorado.
    I yield back to the Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Lee.
    Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to follow up on some of these issues regarding 
Lake Powell. I am very worried about what the ongoing drought 
in the West has done, particularly the impact that it has had 
on Lake Powell. Current water level readings at Lake Powell are 
only 10 feet above the critical threshold that has been set to 
protect power production capabilities at Glen Canyon Dam. And 
according to the most recent 24-month analysis by the Bureau of 
Reclamation that was released just a few weeks ago, those water 
levels are projected to cross that critical threshold by March 
of this year and then continue to decline over the next year.
    And so, Mr. Corwin, I have been worried about this. What 
can you tell me? What steps do you think federal agencies or 
WAPA could take in order to ease transitions for customers if 
our power generation capacity there continues to fluctuate?
    Mr. Corwin. Well, near-term--and I defer to WAPA, the 
experts, on how they would approach their planning and the 
Bureau of Reclamation on the state of the projects, but 
diversifying your supply and your contracts is critical in that 
instance. And I think hydropower, generally, for one thing, 
being able to create mechanisms to bring more into the area, 
because to balance that region is critical as well. So there 
are a lot of different steps. Some of it involves transmission 
capability as well that I know they are looking at to try to 
ameliorate that.
    Senator Lee. Okay.
    Mr. Corwin, you may be aware that the Bureau of Land 
Management (BLM) establishes solar energy zones as areas well 
suited for utility scale production of solar energy where the 
BLM will prioritize solar energy and associated transmission 
infrastructure development. Do you think similar steps could be 
taken by federal agencies in order to address and incentivize 
pumped hydro storage?
    Mr. Corwin. Certainly, there is potential for that. 
Anything you do to make the process easier and to create some 
incentive for investors and developers to make it actually 
happen to the extent the zone helps get you through some of 
that permitting process easier, that could help.
    Senator Lee. So that could be helpful in that way, that 
hydropower generation?
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, I hadn't looked at that for pumped 
storage, but I think the concept has potential, certainly.
    Senator Lee. Okay.
    Mr. Woolf, you mentioned in your testimony that, quote, 
``The time, costs, and uncertainty involved in licensing and 
relicensing in existing hydropower facilities is diametrically 
at odds with the urgency of addressing climate change and the 
upcoming wave of hydropower relicensing proceedings.'' What 
steps do you think Congress can take to lighten the licensing 
burden while upholding the statutory objectives that we have 
set to consider water quality, species protection, cultural 
resource impacts, and recreation?
    Mr. Woolf. I think there are two fundamental problems. The 
first is lack of process discipline. There is no one agency 
that is responsible for the process, and particularly if state 
or federal and natural resource agencies don't do their jobs 
under the required deadlines, there are no consequences and 
there is no decisionmaker, no dispute resolution process. The 
other problem is that some of these agency mandatory conditions 
run amok. They are going way beyond what is related to the 
facts of the facility. So if we could rein in those two 
problems, I think we could have a much more rational system 
that still respects environmental concerns and still involves 
the resource agencies and tribes, and others. In fact, I 
mentioned earlier that we have been working closely with the 
environmental community and tribes, and we hope to be able to 
come back to this Committee in February with a legislative 
reform package to address a lot of these challenges.
    Senator Lee. Wonderful. Including the regulatory-systems-
run-amok-related problems?
    Mr. Woolf. Correct.
    Senator Lee. Do you think these are fixable, and fixable in 
a way that could take into account these interests that we 
previously identified as significant?
    Mr. Woolf. I think they are fixable and they need to be 
fixed if the industry is going to continue.
    Senator Lee. Okay. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Now we have Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Woolf, if a significant number of the hydropower 
facilities elect to decommission rather than renew their 
license, what would be the reliability and affordability 
impacts on consumers?
    Mr. Woolf. It could be dramatic. We are facing a wave of 
relicensing proceedings over the next decade, and these 
facilities not only provide clean power, they are dispatchable, 
so they are often the ones that keep the lights on as you have 
increasing amounts of variable wind and solar. So it could be 
significant.
    Senator Hoeven. All right. And my next two questions are 
related to Senator Lee's question, and I think you answered 
that on the things that should be done to improve the process. 
So I am going to go to Mr. Corwin. When it comes to renewals 
for existing dams as well as permits for new projects, what 
steps do you feel should be taken to address the challenges so 
that the permitting process is improved? And I think Mr. Woolf 
touched on this with his thoughts there, but I would like to 
hear yours.
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, thank you, Senator.
    And I mentioned earlier some of the basics, like getting a 
clear lead agency to hold the other agencies to timelines, the 
clear lead agency being FERC. To not do redundant studies and 
duplicating studies. One thing mentioned in the report that DOE 
or NREL did, they noted too that you have a lot of staff 
turnover, that mid-project, they are trying to rebuild 
technical expertise in the middle of a project review and that 
can hold things up. There are disagreements over scientific 
data. There are waiting times on studies coming from these 
resource agencies. There are just a lot of different parts and 
pieces that could be addressed. It has just not been done to 
date.
    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Should an expansion of hydropower be 
included in the discussion?
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, I think that there are a lot of 
opportunities for expansion, including just better, more 
efficient use even at current projects, and some of the work at 
the Department of Energy labs has highlighted that, as well as 
our technological advances and data increase--you can expand 
even just by operating more efficiently, but expansion, 
certainly. At non-powered projects right now, there is a lot of 
opportunity, and we mentioned earlier tens of thousands of 
projects where there is potential.
    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Well, then that leads me to 
Commissioner Touton. Do you see an opportunity for expanded 
hydropower development at Reclamation's existing facilities?
    Ms. Touton. Yes, Senator. Our hydropower strategic plan 
outlines some of those opportunities within our facilities.
    Senator Hoeven. Okay, and are you working on that?
    Ms. Touton. We absolutely are.
    Senator Hoeven. All right.
    Then, Director Garson, do you also believe that the current 
licensing process involves too many agencies?
    Ms. Garson. That is not at the discretion of the Department 
of Energy, but we have been providing third-party analysis 
specific to the timelines associated with the regulatory 
process, and our findings have been published just this past 
October, detailing the multiple steps that hydropower licensing 
and relicensing requires.
    Senator Hoeven. Then, to ensure hydropower remains an 
important part of our energy mix, do you agree the permitting 
process needs to be streamlined?
    Ms. Garson. I think to address some of the challenges 
articulated by Mr. Woolf and Mr. Corwin, there could be 
efficiencies, but again, the U.S. Department of Energy isn't 
necessarily involved in the regulatory process, but we would be 
happy to meet with your staff to discuss our regulatory study.
    Senator Hoeven. Do you have specific recommendations to 
alleviate burdensome permitting costs and delays?
    Ms. Garson. I do not. This study instead articulates where 
some of the challenges might lie, but the Department of Energy 
does not provide recommendations on how to streamline the 
permitting process.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the 
rest of my time.
    The Chairman. If you all have any more questions--Senator 
Lee, Senator Hoeven, do you have any other questions?
    I just have one follow up and then we will adjourn.
    Have there been rate increases to the customers with these 
water conditions we have out West? How are we able to maintain 
the revenue that is needed for maintenance and repairs? If the 
revenue is down because of the rate increases, or maybe rate 
increases haven't happened, I don't know.
    Mr. Corwin, do you know?
    Mr. Corwin. Yes, there have been rate increases over time 
in the wholesale power cost and some certainly associated with 
not just the increased cost of licensing and the maintenance--
--
    The Chairman. Right.
    Mr. Corwin [continuing]. But also, the operations and lack 
of ability to make use of the capability of those projects.
    The Chairman. Is it going to be difficult with the 
reduction of water to maintain the rates or can you continue to 
raise the rates or adjust the rates that will be needed to keep 
the operations up to par?
    Mr. Corwin. Difficult to say with water conditions year to 
year, and there are a lot of different factors impacting rates 
as well. There are increased costs for cybersecurity and for 
transmission maintenance and build. There are environmental 
considerations. So there are a lot of impacts to those 
customers, residents, and businesses in the West.
    The Chairman. I have one final question. There is a 
gentleman, Charlie Jones, who passed away a couple years ago. 
Charlie was about 100 years of age in West Virginia. He was a 
tremendous, tremendous individual, and he was as sharp and 
bright as could be. Charlie had a plan, basically, to build a 
very large pipeline from the water basin that we have in West 
Virginia--in our pools down in Paducah, Kentucky, there are 
areas of water--to build a pipeline to the West for water. Has 
that ever--I mean, we have to do something to make sure you 
have adequate water supply and we have an abundance of water on 
the East Coast here, especially in the basin that we have that 
we share with Kentucky. And he did all the calculations on it 
and has all the drawings and everything. And I was just 
wondering, has that ever been a consideration?
    Mr. Corwin. I would say, you know, historically there--I 
don't know about going that far, but even trying to move it 
longer distances around the West, it has been looked at over 
the years, but boy, if you think permitting that one little 
project can be difficult, trying to put in that type of 
infrastructure and the cost on it is----
    The Chairman. I am sure the cost and all that would be up, 
but I just was wondering if the environmentalists would be 
opposed to a water pipeline?
    Mr. Corwin. I would say the siting permitting would be 
extremely challenging----
    Senator King. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Yes.
    Senator King. Would you agree with me that if we did 
something like that, we ought to peg the water to the price of 
a barrel of oil?
    [Laughter.]
    The Chairman. Well, at least I can tell you one thing, we 
would like to get paid for our water in West Virginia.
    [Laughter.]
    The Chairman. So I do not think we would be quite as 
expensive as oil, but we would get a pretty penny for it.
    Senator King, do you have any further follow-up? Any 
questions?
    Senator King. No, Mr. Chairman, but thank you again for 
this hearing. I think it is a very important one and I think we 
have had some good ideas here and some things we can act upon.
    The Chairman. I think we have taken it for granted, you 
know, for far too long on hydropower and not really paying 
attention to it and developing it the way it should be 
developed. It is a tremendous opportunity, and we have an 
opportunity now to reduce our footprint, our carbon footprint, 
and it would be tremendous to have the reliable power that we 
know can do the job and has done it. Technology--I do not know 
if technology has been keeping up with it or if we put enough 
emphasis on that, on additional technology for hydropower 
production, but it is something we should do.
    Senator King. Well, Mr. Chairman, one of the tremendous 
resources we identified today was the dams, the thousands of 
dams----
    The Chairman. Right.
    Senator King [continuing]. That do not have any power 
generation.
    The Chairman. Absolutely.
    Senator King. And I think we should look into some kind of 
expedited permitting process, similar to very small hydro 
projects at FERC, to enable the country to move forward tapping 
that resource. I think that is one of the most important things 
we have learned in this hearing today, and we need to figure 
out how to facilitate that development in areas where the 
environmental impact has already taken place.
    The Chairman. With all of your assistance, maybe we can--
our most able staffers on Renae and Richard's teams--work with 
you all to get an update on where we stand on these and what 
potential there is. The most logical, reasonable, and cost-
effective ones. Which dams would you target if you were going 
to put hydro on? That would help us tremendously. Narrow it 
down to the ones that could be done. If you could help us with 
that, we would appreciate it.
    I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us this 
morning for the discussion. It has been quite informative, as 
you can tell by the questions that have been asked.
    Members will have until the close of business tomorrow to 
submit additional questions for the record.
    With that, the hearing will be adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:53 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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