[Senate Hearing 117-174]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S. Hrg. 117-174

                    NOMINATION OF JULIE SU TO SERVE
                      AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                                OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
                          LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                                   ON

 EXAMINING THE NOMINATION OF JULIE A. SU, OF CALIFORNIA, TO BE DEPUTY 
                           SECRETARY OF LABOR

                               __________

                             MARCH 16, 2021

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and 
                                Pensions
                                
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                                


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
46-754 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------   
       
        
          COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                    PATTY MURRAY, Washington, Chair
BERNIE SANDERS (I), Vermont          RICHARD BURR, North Carolina, 
ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania       Ranking Member
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             RAND PAUL, M.D., Kentucky
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
TIM KAINE, Virginia                  BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
TINA SMITH, Minnesota                MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  ROGER MARSHALL, M.D., Kansas
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          MITT ROMNEY, Utah
                                     TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
                                     JERRY MORAN, Kansas

                     Evan T. Schatz, Staff Director
               David P. Cleary, Republican Staff Director
                  John Righter, Deputy Staff Director
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                               STATEMENTS

                        TUESDAY, MARCH 16, 2021

                                                                   Page

                           Committee Members

Murray, Hon. Patty, Chair, Committee on Health, Education, Labor, 
  and Pensions, Opening statement................................     1
Burr, Hon. Richard, Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from the State 
  of North Carolina, Opening statement...........................     3
Padilla, Hon. Alex, a U.S. Senator from the State of California, 
  Statement......................................................     6

                               Witnesses

Su, Julie, Sacramento, CA........................................     7
    Prepared statement...........................................     9

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Statements, articles, publications, letters, etc.
Hirono, Hon. Mazie:
    Prepared statement on the nomination of Julie Su to be Deputy 
      Secretary of Labor.........................................    40
Murray, Hon. Patty:
    44 letters in support of Secretary Su's nomination to be 
      Deputy Secretary of Labor..................................    42

 
                    NOMINATION OF JULIE SU TO SERVE
                      AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR

                              ----------                              


                        Tuesday, March 16, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
       Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in 
room 106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Patty Murray, 
Chair of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Murray [presiding], Casey, Baldwin, 
Murphy, Kaine, Hassan, Smith, Rosen, Hickenlooper, Burr, 
Collins, Cassidy, Murkowski, Braun, Marshall, Scott, and 
Tuberville.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MURRAY

    The Chair. Good morning. The Senate Health, Education, 
Labor, and Pensions Committee will please come to order.
    Today we are holding a hearing on the nomination of 
California Secretary of Labor Julie Su to serve as Deputy 
Secretary of Labor. Senator Burr and I will each have an 
opening statement, and then I will recognize Senator Padilla to 
introduce Secretary Su. After Secretary Su gives her testimony, 
Senators will have 5 minutes each for a round of questions. I 
am happy to stay for a second round if any Senator has any 
remaining questions.
    Before we begin, I do want to walk through the COVID-19 
safety protocols in place. We will follow the advice of the 
Attending Physician and the Sergeant at Arms in conducting this 
hearing. We are all grateful to everyone, including our clerks, 
who have worked so hard to get this set up and help everyone 
stay safe and healthy.
    Committee Members are seated at least six feet apart, and 
some Senators are participating by video conference. While we 
are unable to have the hearing fully open to the public or 
media for in-person attendance, live video is available on our 
Committee website at help.senate.gov.
    If you are in need of accommodations, including closed 
captioning, you can reach out to the Committee or the Office of 
Congressional Accessibility Services.
    We received Secretary Su's formal nomination on February 
13th; her Office of Government Ethics paperwork, including her 
public financial disclosures and ethics agreement, on February 
18th; and her Committee paperwork on March 2nd.
    Secretary Su, thank you for joining us today. I'm pleased 
to welcome your daughter, LiMei, who is here with you today. 
And I know your family, including your parents and your 
daughter, AnLing, are watching as well. They must be very 
proud.
    Our Country is not yet through the COVID-19 crisis, but 
with the passage of the American Rescue Plan and President 
Biden announcing he will direct all states, tribes, and 
territories to make all people 18 and over eligible to be 
vaccinated no later than May 1st, we're finally on the right 
track. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. But we have 
to make sure we do not run out of steam before we reach it.
    We are going to need a full team working together to make 
that happen, which is why it is so important we work to get 
qualified nominees like Julie Su quickly confirmed.
    President Biden has taken important, historic steps, as has 
Congress, but there is more work to be done to not only fully 
rescue America from this pandemic, but to recover from this 
crisis and rebuild a stronger and fairer economy.
    I'm incredibly glad we were able to extend the unemployment 
benefits millions of families need to help them get by in the 
American Rescue Plan, but we also need to increase wages. One 
in nine workers is making poverty-level wages, and some workers 
are still being paid discriminatory sub-minimum wages.
    I'm glad we were able to take steps that will cut child 
poverty in half, but we need to do more to help families get 
quality, affordable child care and provide national paid sick 
days and family and medical leave, especially since, in the 
midst of a pandemic, one in four workers do not have paid sick 
leave.
    I'm thrilled we were able to protect millions of workers 
and retirees from having the pensions they earned dramatically 
cut, but we need to help more people plan for retirement. One 
in four people have no retirement savings, and women are 80 
percent more likely to face poverty in retirement.
    In addition to the American Rescue Plan, there is more 
progress we are making that we must build on. President Biden 
has taken important steps toward protecting workers, but we 
know that work is not done yet, and even when it is, we will 
need to do more to ensure people are safe from workplace 
hazards, pandemics, harassment, and discrimination, something 
my BE HEARD in the Workplace Act works to address.
    President Biden has also moved to withdraw the previous 
administration's joint employer and independent contractor 
rules, which shielded the largest corporations from being held 
accountable for violations of workers' rights and significantly 
restricted workers' right to minimum wage and overtime.
    In addition to these much needed steps, the Senate needs to 
join the House in passing the PRO Act, which I introduced last 
month, to strengthen the right to join a union and collectively 
bargain.
    While we all know our economy can't work without women, 
it's also painfully clear it is not working for them. One in 
four women have considered down shifting their careers because 
of this pandemic. More than 2 million women left the workforce 
over the last year.
    Women of color face an even larger pay gap, higher rates of 
unemployment, and a steeper climb to recovery.
    We need to do so much more to ensure equity in our economy 
and address the sexism, racism, ableism, and bigotry that has 
hurt too many for so long.
    But, if we are going to build an economy that works for all 
working families, we need someone serving as Deputy Secretary 
of Labor who will fight for them, and that someone is Julie Su.
    Julie Su's experience leading one of the largest state 
labor departments in the Nation, her decades-long commitment to 
fighting for workers' rights, and her personal story as the 
multilingual daughter of Chinese immigrants, have given her the 
experience, background, and values to be a successful Deputy 
Secretary of Labor.
    As a labor lawyer, Julie Su fought to defend Thai garment 
workers who were trafficked into the United States and forced 
to work behind barbed wire and under armed guard, and she then 
pushed to change the law to ensure corporations are held 
responsible for working conditions in their supply chains.
    As California Labor Commissioner, Julie Su cracked down on 
wage theft and launched a multilingual campaign to help workers 
understand their rights and feel safe speaking up about 
employers stealing their wages.
    As California's Secretary of Labor, Julie Su has 
implemented increases to the state minimum wage, created good-
paying, high-quality jobs, expanded access to benefits for gig 
workers and workers who are paid low wages, and protected 
essential workers who are bearing the brunt of this pandemic, 
including by establishing and enforcing mandatory emergency 
COVID workplace safety standards.
    In short, Secretary Su's record as a champion for workers 
is long and clear, and the need to confirm her is obvious and 
urgent.
    We need a fully staffed Department of Labor to protect 
workers and help us end this pandemic, to foster healthy 
communities, and to build a stronger, fairer economy.
    We need a Deputy Secretary of Labor like Julie Su who is 
committed to ensuring workers have a fair and just workplace, a 
livable wage, a secure retirement, safe working conditions, 
access to accommodations, the right to join together and 
collectively bargain, and are treated with dignity and respect.
    I urge my colleagues to work with me on a bipartisan basis 
to confirm her without delay.
    Finally, I seek unanimous consent to put in the record 44 
letters in support of Secretary Su's nomination, from more than 
650 labor unions, former colleagues, labor leaders, and more.
    So ordered.
    [The information referred to can be found on page 42.]
    The Chair. With that, I will recognize Ranking Member Burr 
for his opening remarks.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BURR

    Senator Burr. Good morning and thank you, Chair Murray. 
Thank you for scheduling this hearing to consider the 
nomination of Secretary Julie Su for Deputy Secretary of Labor.
    Welcome, Secretary Su. I congratulate you on your 
nomination, and I know your family is proud of what you've 
accomplished.
    Article 2, Section 2 of the United States Constitution 
gives the Senate the power of advice and consent to approve or 
reject nominations for executive offices made by the President. 
The Senate is not a rubber stamp but an equal partner in 
shaping the staff of the executive branch.
    It's an important responsibility, and I do take it 
personally; I do not take it lightly. I have supported nominees 
of presidents of both parties even when I didn't agree with the 
president or the nominee if I thought that the nominee was 
qualified for the job and deserving of my support.
    In fact, a month ago I supported the nomination of Marty 
Walsh to be Secretary of Labor. I said then that Mayor Walsh 
has the background, the skills, and the awareness of the need 
for balance in conversations between labor and management.
    Mayor Walsh emphasized during his nomination hearing that 
he wanted to work with us collaboratively to help the American 
workers improve and expand opportunities. Mayor Walsh committed 
to making sure commerce and labor work cooperatively. So I'm 
pleased to be able to support his nomination and provide my 
consent.
    California is not a model to emulate for the rest of the 
country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 
California's unemployment stands at 9 percent, the second 
highest in the country, and has had one of the worst increases 
in unemployment over the last year of COVID.
    The state has imposed some of the most onerous restrictions 
on businesses and individuals, and has been one of the slowest 
to recover from the pandemic.
    The controversial AB 5 bill would have decimated many of 
the companies that have helped to give the state its reputation 
of innovation.
    For example, Uber and Lyft were both born in California and 
have revolutionized how people around the world get from place 
to place. Both companies would have had to cease operations in 
the very state in which they're headquartered if the AB 5 bill 
would have been implemented as passed.
    The law was so radical that the same California voters who 
overwhelmingly supported President Biden overturned the core of 
AB 5 by a whopping 17 percent.
    California is also known for high taxes, and that applies 
both to individuals as well as businesses, and those rates 
aren't likely to go down anytime soon considering the 
staggering amount of state liabilities on the state's balance 
sheet. The Tax Foundation ranked California 49th out of 50 
states in terms of business climate. The classic idea of ``if 
you want less of something, make it more expensive'' applies to 
employing people in California.
    The Mercatus Center has also found that California has the 
most state regulatory restrictions in the country, nearly 30 
percent more than the state with the second most restrictions. 
The tax and regulatory burden weigh heavily on employers, and 
it's another reason why we are seeing so many businesses flee 
California in favor of other states with more reasonable 
policies.
    Maybe that explains why so many companies are moving from 
California and bringing their jobs to North Carolina, Texas, 
and elsewhere. I see a lot of moving trucks with California 
plates in Charlotte and Raleigh, North Carolina, and as long as 
they don't bring their politics, we're happy to welcome them 
with open arms.
    Turning to our nominee, Madam Secretary, you have a few 
challenges in gaining the support for your nomination.
    First, some of your friends have made it clear that they 
think you will be a shadow Secretary, when the role of Deputy 
Secretary is really that of Chief Operating Officer. Your 
friends may have thought they were helping you, but some of 
what they have said raises some real questions.
    Secretary Su, we discussed this yesterday in my office, so 
I hope you can convince the Committee that you understand the 
job you've been nominated for.
    I also hope you can demonstrate that you aren't aiming to 
drag Mayor Walsh away from what I think is a sensible agenda he 
committed to pursuing when he sat right where you sit today in 
his confirmation hearing.
    Second, and more importantly, I'm even more concerned about 
the failures and fraud in California's unemployment insurance. 
California suffered some of the largest fraud in our Nation's 
history during the pandemic. Over $11 billion, and perhaps as 
high as $30 billion, in fraud occurred in California's 
unemployment system. Even death row inmates received 
unemployment checks.
    I'm sure there is a reasonable debate to be had about the 
death penalty, but I can't imagine one that involves paying 
people on death row for being unemployed.
    What's worse about the fraud committed on California and 
the U.S. taxpayer is that it was entirely preventable.
    It's my understanding that an auditor made a series of 
recommendations just as you took office, specifically 
recommending that California exclude sensitive information, 
including Social Security numbers, from its identification 
system. But nothing changed.
    In fact, when the fraud was ramping up and billions being 
stolen from taxpayers, California actually made things worse. 
You ordered the agency to eliminate some important safeguards 
to speed up payments, which led to even more fraud.
    Additionally, the people waited months for their benefits, 
and a state audit showed that call centers only answered 1 
percent of their calls.
    These are operational failures of extreme proportion.
    What's worse is that California has received hundreds of 
millions a year, every year, over the past decade in Federal 
funds for administration of their unemployment systems, but no 
changes or improvements to those systems were made.
    It's not Washington's fault that the California system 
still uses COBOL. You'd think with all of those tech companies 
still in Silicon Valley, that one or two of them would have 
been able to provide new technology and new systems.
    As we discussed yesterday, it is true that all states 
struggled, but California's struggles swamp everyone else, and 
none of their Secretaries of Labor are here today seeking a 
promotion.
    While you may not personally be responsible for every case 
of fraud that happened, the fraud did happen under your watch. 
So please help this Committee understand why that is an 
experience the Senate should reward with a promotion.
    I'll keep an open mind as we go through this hearing, and I 
appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues with me and 
with the Committee today.
    I thank the Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member Burr.
    Now I will turn it over to Senator Padilla--welcome to our 
Committee--to introduce Secretary Su.

                  STATEMENT OF SENATOR PADILLA

    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Chair Murray and Ranking Member 
Burr, for once again inviting me to address the HELP Committee 
to introduce a fellow Californian. I'm honored to introduce 
Julie Su to be Deputy Secretary of the Department of Labor, and 
I'm confident that her experience as Secretary for the 
California Labor and Workforce Development Agency will enable 
her to immediately hit the ground running at the Federal level.
    As I believe we all agree, our Nation's workers and 
businesses are struggling to survive the economic impacts of 
the COVID-19 pandemic, and it's critical that we have 
experienced leadership in place. There is simply no better 
preparation for the challenges that we're facing than serving 
at the state level in the State of California, a state that 
represents the fifth largest economy in the world, the largest 
economy of any state in the Nation, and that reflects the local 
variations in business conditions that we see across the 
country.
    As you will hear from her, Julie is the proud daughter of 
immigrants. Her parents came from China in search of a better 
life for their family, just like my parents did. Her parents 
worked at minimum wage jobs for decades. Julie understands how 
hard families in America are working right now just to make 
ends meet.
    Her upbringing engrained in her how to run a small 
business. She watched her parents run a dry cleaning and 
laundromat business, and later a pizza restaurant. She learned 
firsthand what goes into making businesses succeed, and she 
knows how to help them and how to help workers.
    As a seasoned lawyer fluent in Mandarin, and Spanish as 
well, Julie spent two decades representing workers, including 
immigrant workers and workers of color. She became deeply 
familiar with their struggles, the struggles of garment 
workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers, nurses, restaurant and 
retail workers, workers in all the industries that have been 
severely impacted by the pandemic and are critical to our 
Nation's economic recovery.
    As California Labor Commissioner from 2011 to 2018, Julie 
launched the first Wage Theft is a Crime campaign to help low-
wage workers and employers understand their rights. And most 
recently, as Secretary of the California Labor and Workforce 
Development Agency, Julie has overseen seven major departments, 
boards, and panels that improve access to training, promote 
quality jobs, eliminate barriers to employment, create 
innovative career pathways, and level the playing field for 
employers large and small.
    Julie knows that collaboration with employers and the 
business community is key to success, and that's why we see so 
many small business groups and Chambers of Commerce supportive 
of her nomination.
    Now, I know that California has struggled with fraud in its 
unemployment system in recent months, perpetuated by the same 
organized criminals that have targeted several states around 
the country. That's why Julie's experience is even more helpful 
and needed by the Federal Government as the Federal Government 
will work with states to crack down on unemployment fraud 
nationwide.
    I know that Julie will take every opportunity to do right 
by both our Nation's workers and employers, to think boldly and 
to expand opportunities to achieve the American Dream, just as 
her parents did.
    Julie Su is a proven leader who is uniquely qualified to 
take on the challenges of the Department at this moment. I 
believe it's critical that this Committee give her the fair and 
respectful consideration that she has earned, and I urge the 
Committee to support her nomination.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you very much, Senator Padilla.
    Senator Hirono was planning to be here with us today to 
help introduce Secretary Su. Unfortunately, she needed to fly 
home to Hawaii for a personal emergency. But she has written a 
statement of support. I ask unanimous consent to enter it in 
the record.
    So ordered.
    [The information referred to can be found on page 40.]
    The Chair. Secretary Su, you may now begin your testimony.

             STATEMENT OF JULIE SU, SACRAMENTO, CA

    Ms. Su. Madam Chair Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and 
Members of the Committee, I am honored to appear before you 
today and am grateful for the time that you took to meet with 
me prior to this hearing. I have enjoyed our discussions about 
the Department of Labor and its critical role in meeting the 
challenges of our time. I have appreciated the chance to share 
with you my vision for the Deputy Secretary of Labor's role.
    I want to start by thanking President Biden for this 
incredible opportunity. I also want to thank my parents, who 
are watching from California along with my daughter AnLing, a 
high school senior who will attend Amherst College in the fall 
and play on the basketball team.
    My older daughter, LiMei, is with me today. She is a 
student at Yale, and I'm so grateful that she could be here in 
person. My children and I are proud products of the American 
Dream.
    I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants. My mom immigrated 
to the United States on a 30-day voyage on a cargo ship because 
she could not afford a passenger ticket. Both of my parents 
came to America for opportunity, and they found it in Provo, 
Utah, where they studied; in Madison, Wisconsin, where my 
sister Shirley and I were born; and ultimately in the home they 
built in search of warmer weather in Southern California.
    My parents worked minimum wage jobs while going to school 
and instilled in me a deep appreciation for the struggles and 
pride in work. My mom eventually got a job working at Los 
Angeles County, starting as an office clerk, and retired after 
27 years. That job gave our family financial security and 
health insurance. It also gave my mom stable, predictable hours 
and, now that she's retired, a pension. I know well what a good 
union job does for a family because I am a direct beneficiary.
    While I was growing up, as Senator Padilla mentioned, my 
family also owned a dry cleaning and laundromat business, and 
later a pizza restaurant. I remember for years my dad would go 
to his day job and then go directly to our business, returning 
home after 10 p.m., often with a pizza that a customer had 
rejected for my sister and me to pack in our school lunches the 
next day. I have a first-hand appreciation for small 
businesses, who are the engines of our economy.
    I also grew up translating for my parents, a common 
experience in immigrant families. After college I went to law 
school and became the first lawyer in my family. My experience 
as a translator at home shaped my commitment to making the law 
understandable and meaningful to individuals and communities 
too often left out of our economy. I spent nearly two decades 
representing workers, including immigrant workers and workers 
of color--garment workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers, 
nurses, restaurant and retail workers--many of the same workers 
who have been hardest hit by the COVID pandemic. What I learned 
from these courageous individuals is that too many people still 
work full-time year-round and live in poverty. Too many are 
denied a just day's pay for a hard day's work. As we've seen 
during the pandemic, too many workers have to choose between 
their safety and their livelihoods.
    At the same time, I learned that working people, when given 
a chance to organize, to be heard, not only make things better 
for themselves but bring the hope of such opportunity to those 
around them. If confirmed, I will bring these lessons and 
experiences to my role as we collectively continue to navigate 
these trying times.
    For the past 10 years I have served the people of 
California to build a fair and inclusive economy that values 
workers and supports businesses, all of whom want a fair shot 
at opportunity and security. I have prioritized innovative 
partnerships with employers, ensured robust enforcement of 
labor laws, and worked to combat wage theft. During my time 
leading and managing labor department programs in California, 
the world's fifth largest economy, I have seen firsthand three 
things that I want to share today.
    One, with a clear vision, bold ideas, and commitment to 
making government work, rejecting the idea that we have to do 
it this way because it's always been done this way, for 
example, we can transform what we do and how we do it.
    Two, government has a meaningful role to play in providing 
support to employers who play by the rules. One of these roles 
is investments in workforce programs to provide training to 
meet the need for skilled workers and give more workers access 
to quality jobs. So much of what government can do is good for 
both employers and employees. I have been a leader dedicated to 
finding and expanding those areas of common ground.
    Three, the lowest-paid workers, who often work crushing 
hours under brutal conditions, deserve their government's 
support and respect. It is possible that we cannot only ensure 
that their earned wages make it into their pockets, we can also 
build their faith in the very idea of government itself.
    These lessons drive my desire to serve in the Federal 
Government. I am grateful for this chance to work to preserve 
and expand the American Dream for all Americans. And, if 
confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of Labor, I look forward to 
my partnership with you in the years to come. I look forward to 
your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Su follows:]
                     prepared statement of julie su
    Chair Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and Members of the Committee, I 
am honored to appear before you today and am grateful for the time you 
made to meet with me prior to this hearing. I have enjoyed our 
discussions about the Department of Labor and its critical role in 
meeting the challenges of our time. I have appreciated the chance to 
share my vision with you for the Deputy Secretary position.

    I want to start by also thanking President Biden for this 
incredible opportunity. I also want to thank my parents, who are 
watching today from California along with my daughter AnLing, a high 
school senior who will attend Amherst College in the fall and play on 
the basketball team. I'm also fortunate to have my older daughter, 
LiMei, with me today. She is a student at Yale, and I'm so grateful she 
could join me in person. My children and I are proud to be products of 
the American Dream.

    I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants. My mom came to the United 
States on a 30-day voyage on a cargo ship because she couldn't afford a 
passenger ticket. Both of my parents came to America for opportunity, 
and they found it in Provo, Utah, where they studied; Madison, 
Wisconsin, where my sister and I were born; and ultimately in the home 
they built in search of warmer weather in Southern California.

    My parents worked minimum wage jobs while going to school and 
instilled in me a deep appreciation for the struggles and pride in 
work. My mom eventually got a job working at Los Angeles County, 
starting as an office clerk, and retired after 27 years. That job gave 
our family financial security and health insurance, and also gave my 
mom stable, predictable hours and, now that she's retired, a pension. I 
know well what a good union job does for a family because I am a direct 
beneficiary.

    While I was growing up, my family also owned a dry cleaning and 
laundromat business and then a pizza restaurant. I remember for years 
my dad would work his day job and then go directly to our business, 
returning home after 10 pm often with a pizza that a customer had 
rejected for my sister and I to pack in our school lunches the next 
day. I have a first-hand appreciation for small business owners, who 
are the engines of our economy.

    I also grew up translating for my parents, a common experience in 
immigrant families. After college, I went to law school and became the 
first lawyer in my family. My experience as a translator at home shaped 
my commitment to making the law understandable and meaningful to 
individuals and communities too often left out of our economy. I spent 
nearly two decades representing workers, including immigrant workers 
and workers of color--garment workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers, 
nurses, restaurant and retail workers--many of the same workers who 
have been hardest hit by the COVID pandemic. What I learned from these 
courageous individuals is that too many people still work full-time 
year-round and live in poverty. Too many are denied a just day's pay 
for a hard day's work. As we've seen during the pandemic, too many 
workers have to choose between their safety and their livelihoods. At 
the same time, I learned that working people, when given a chance to 
organize, to be heard, not only make things better for themselves but 
bring the hope of such opportunity to those around them. If confirmed, 
I will bring these lessons and experiences to my role as we 
collectively continue to navigate these trying times.

    For the last 10 years, I have served the people of California to 
build a fair and inclusive economy that values workers and supports 
businesses, all of whom want a fair shot at opportunity and security. I 
have prioritized innovative partnerships with employers, ensured robust 
enforcement of labor laws, and worked to combat wage theft. During my 
time leading and managing labor department programs in California, the 
world's fifth largest economy, I saw firsthand that:

          With a clear vision, bold ideas, and commitment to 
        making government work--rejecting the idea that it has to be 
        this way because we've always done it that way, for example--we 
        could transform what we do and how we do it.

          Government has a meaningful role to play in providing 
        support to employers who play by the rules. One of these roles 
        is investments in workforce programs to provide training to 
        meet the need for skilled workers and give more workers access 
        to quality jobs. So much of what government can do is good for 
        both employers and employees. I have been a leader dedicated to 
        finding and expanding those areas of common ground.

          The lowest-paid workers, who often work crushing 
        hours under brutal conditions, deserve their government's 
        effort and respect. It is possible that we not only can ensure 
        their earned wages make it into their pockets, we can also 
        build their faith in the very idea of government itself.

    These lessons drive my desire to serve in the Federal Government. I 
am grateful for this chance to work to preserve and expand the American 
dream for all Americans, and, if confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of 
Labor, I look forward to my partnership with you in the years ahead. I 
look forward to your questions.
                                 ______
                                 
    The Chair. Thank you very much, Secretary Su.
    We will now begin our round of 5-minute questions. I ask my 
colleagues to please keep track of your clock and stay within 
those 5 minutes. I am happy to stay if anyone has additional 
questions for a second round.
    Secretary Su, as we continue to grapple with the health and 
economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, I'm optimistic about 
the rising rates of vaccinations and the drop in cases and 
deaths in recent weeks, but we have a long road of economic 
recovery ahead. Our nation's essential workers have spent the 
last year responding on the front lines, but many lack paid 
sick days, fair wages, and proper health and safety 
protections. Millions of workers remain unemployed.
    In late 2020, some estimates showed nearly a quarter of 
small businesses remained closed, with the most severe losses 
among businesses owned by women, people of color, and 
immigrants.
    Secretary Su, you have led California's labor agency's 
response to the pandemic, overseeing implementation of state 
and Federal rules, defending the rights of workers, and 
ensuring health and safety on the job. Tell us what you have 
learned from your experience in leading the response of the 
Nation's largest state to the COVID pandemic, and how will your 
state leadership experience inform how you approach the Federal 
COVID response from the Department of Labor?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Madam Chair Murray. Thank you 
for the question, and thank you for your ongoing leadership, 
especially when it comes to women in the workplace.
    Every worker I have ever represented, assisted, or worked 
with taught me something different. But the one thing they all 
taught me is that what we are able to do when we work together 
is far more than what we can do when we work alone. And that 
spirit of collaboration, of listening, the idea that we can 
accomplish big things if we create big tables and create a seat 
for everyone to be heard, is the way that I would approach the 
job of Deputy Secretary of Labor.
    In my career, and especially over this last year during the 
pandemic, I have experienced working across many interests. I 
know that in government we need to work across all agencies to 
meet the challenges our Country faces. It is how we have 
approached COVID in the pandemic, and I welcome this approach.
    I know that all levels of government--Federal, state, and 
local--have to work together. At the end of the day, people 
don't care how we draw our lines, they just want to know if 
we've made their lives better.
    I understand how to support career staff in government 
agencies to enable them to meet the mission of their 
departments. I believe that organizations, including 
government, have to invest in making things work. Last week, 
the President spoke directly to the American people about the 
pain that this pandemic has wrought. He talked about that 
longest walk that any parent has to make to their children's 
bedroom to tell them I've lost my job. And this past year, too 
many Americans have had to do that.
    The unemployment insurance system is supposed to be a 
safety net for those times. In California, over the course of 
the pandemic, UI claims jumped dramatically. From the last week 
in February to just two weeks later, they jumped 1,400 percent. 
The number of claims by mid-April was more than the total 
number of claims filed in all of 2019.
    This meant that, like just about every other state, 
California's unemployment insurance system was overwhelmed. And 
each claim represented somebody who suddenly had the ground 
fall out from under them. I personally heard from thousands of 
these individuals, people who one day had a job and the next 
day didn't know how they were going to pay rent, were going to 
food banks, living in their cars, and worried about whether 
they would be able to buy life-saving medications. So the 
magnitude of the suffering cannot be overstated.
    California had one in five claims in the entire nation, and 
we were working on a system built on outdated technology. I 
identified this as a priority when I came in during 2019. But, 
frankly, system upgrades are not quick endeavors. So when the 
pandemic hit, the arcane technology made the system both 
fragile and inflexible. Again, this didn't just happen in 
California, but it proves something that I have brought to my 
decades of work improving systems and organizations, that we 
have to invest in making things work in good times so that they 
can meet our needs in bad.
    This is especially true in unemployment insurance, because 
it is a system that is most needed in the worst of times, as 
we've seen in this last year. We took steps in California to 
process the historic numbers of claims. We did ramp up. We got 
to the point where we were paying over a billion dollars a week 
in benefits to individuals who needed it, money that was a 
lifeline to individuals, and also put money back into the 
economy because recipients of these benefits paid them directly 
for the basic necessities--groceries, rent, and the like.
    According to the Century Foundation, which evaluates UI 
performance across the country, in November California was 
second. Colorado was first, but California was second in the 
percentage of initial claims paid. This means that despite the 
large numbers and despite the failing technology, the steps we 
took helped to deliver.
    But I mention the people that I heard from because this 
should never happen, that the safety nets in place do not work 
and are not strong enough. So we have to update our systems. We 
have to get payments out when we stop fraud. And we need a 
Department of Labor that works with the states, that 
understands the real-world challenges and can set a big table 
to approach these issues with a national approach because they 
are a national problem. And if confirmed, I would be really 
proud to work with all of you on these problems.
    The Chair. Thank you very much for that response.
    Senator Burr.
    Senator Burr. Thank you, Senator Murray.
    Again, welcome, Secretary Su.
    Chris Lu and Patrick Pacella, two prior Deputy Labor 
Secretaries, have said that the role of Deputy Labor Secretary 
is one of chief operating officer. However, in an interview 
with Vox, V-O-X, Congresswoman Judy Chu expressed that before 
you agreed to take on the deputy role, you had a talk with 
Marty Walsh to get assurances that you would have the ability 
to concentrate on your areas of expertise.
    These are yes or no answers.
    Do you see the role as Deputy Secretary of Labor as the 
chief operating officer, yes or no?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Burr. Thank you 
so much for the time you took to meet with me. I appreciated 
the chance to talk about this then, too. I absolutely see the 
role of Deputy Secretary of Labor as the chief operating 
officer of the Department.
    Senator Burr. Will your priority be managing the Department 
of Labor's 15,000-plus employees and 10 regions, yes or no?
    Ms. Su. My priority will be to best serve hopefully soon-
to-be Labor Secretary Walsh and the Administration on making 
sure that the Department of Labor delivers on its mission, and 
absolutely a key part of that priority is what you just 
mentioned in terms of supervising, managing, making sure the 
Department works well and that the staff have what they need in 
order to perform their jobs at the highest level.
    Senator Burr. The buck stops with you as Labor Secretary in 
California. California has provided at least $10.4 billion, and 
up to $31 billion, in fraudulent unemployment insurance 
payments under your leadership.
    Again, these are yes or no answers.
    Shortly after you were appointed Secretary, a state auditor 
urged the Employment Development Department to address its 
mailing system after millions of Social Security numbers were 
included in a mailing sent to wrong addresses. Did you 
implement the recommendations made by the auditor, yes or no?
    Ms. Su. Ranking Member Burr, thank you again. There are a 
lot of issues in the unemployment insurance--what has happened 
over the last year. That audit happened well before the 
pandemic; and, yes, the recommendations of that audit have been 
implemented.
    Senator Burr. In August 2020 the California State Auditor's 
Office identified as a high-risk issue the Employment 
Development Department's management of Federal funding in 
response to COVID-19, and in September 2020 California's state 
auditor, Elaine Howell, was directed by the California Joint 
Legislative Audit Committee to conduct an emergency audit of 
EDD. Is that, in fact, true? Yes or no?
    Ms. Su. Yes. There were a couple of audits conducted in 
relation to the pandemic. One was about fraud, and the other 
was on operations.
    Senator Burr. According to state auditor Howell, you 
directed the Employment Development Department to pay certain 
claimants UI benefits without making key eligibility 
determinations and to temporarily stop collecting bi-weekly 
eligibility certifications. Knowing the unemployment insurance 
system was at risk of fraud, you chose to remove the checks and 
balances; yes or no?
    Ms. Su. Thank you, Ranking Member Burr. I think what's 
important here is I mentioned there were two different audits. 
The pandemic-related fraud that has been perpetrated across the 
country is really a nationwide, insidious criminal scheme. That 
is a different audit and a different situation. I'm happy to 
talk about that, as well. But then the audit about operations 
which mentioned, yes, that I took steps consistent with what 
was then the Department of Labor's guidance in order to try to 
make sure that benefits continued to get out to Californians 
when we saw that there were threats to the stability and the 
security of our system. We did not waive any fraud checks at 
the time. There was no finding that decision led to the massive 
fraud that----
    Senator Burr. You didn't waive any certifications?
    Ms. Su. We did not waive certifications. What we did was, 
because we saw that individuals were coming into the system to 
certify every 2 weeks and this was threatening the stability of 
the system itself, what we said was that there was a period of 
time in which people, especially because of the pandemic, it 
was very unlikely that people were going back to work, that if 
they went back to work and were no longer eligible, they had to 
come and inform us of that separately but not through the 
system that was supporting the entire UI----
    Senator Burr. Let me get my last question in, then, if I 
can, Secretary. As Deputy Secretary of Labor, your job will be 
to prevent fraud and abuse of taxpayer spending. Will you 
prioritize expedience over protecting against fraud and 
taxpayer waste, yes or no?
    Ms. Su. The UI system is a constant--it's a dual effort 
both to get payments out to people who need them, especially in 
the most desperate of times, and to stop the fraud. I will 
certainly prioritize the continued fight against fraud. The 
President called our Nation's battle against COVID the need to 
be on a war footing. I would say that the battle against the 
criminal enterprises that have relentlessly attacked our 
pandemic-related benefits system is one front in that fight. 
And in California, we have been on those front lines.
    When we saw the initial spike in claims on the pandemic 
unemployment assistance, we stopped the automatic back-dating 
of claims. After we did, the Department of Labor instructed all 
states to do it. It shut down a number of the fraudulent claims 
that came through. We have also adopted technology--I know we 
talked about this yesterday. We were one of the first five 
states to do so. This is an effort to stop the identity theft 
fraud, which was a big part of the fraud that, again, cost--
that hit every state and that the Department of Labor estimates 
is about 10 percent of all of the pandemic unemployment 
system's claims. We put that in place. Now over 20 states have 
also done that.
    I would take the experience that we had in California to 
stop fraud, to shut the front door to fraud, and to send a 
strong message that our systems are secure, to make sure that 
we can--that the Department of Labor supports the states in 
this effort rather than leaving states to fend for themselves 
as they are attacked one by one.
    Senator Burr. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Secretary Su, thank you for putting yourself 
forward for this position. We're grateful to have this 
opportunity to ask some questions. And I wanted to first make 
just a brief comment on your nomination from a personal 
perspective. Your family story and your story is a great 
American story of success and hard work, and we're grateful 
that you're able to now have an opportunity to serve at the 
Federal level, and we appreciate the work that you've done in 
the State of California.
    I wanted to start with a question about Americans with 
disabilities. I know that we talked about this. I spoke to 
Mayor Walsh about this as well, about expanding employment 
opportunities for people with disabilities.
    We've made a lot of advances, as we know, in the last 
couple of decades in areas like assistive technology to help 
folks with disabilities. Job coaching is another where that has 
advanced. There are other supports that enable people with 
disabilities to succeed in the workplace, and quality 
employment opportunities for people with disabilities at the 
same time continue to be far too limited. So even though we've 
made some advancements, we still have a long way to go to 
provide those quality employment opportunities.
    We know that thousands of individuals with disabilities 
also continue to be paid a sub-minimum wage under Section 14(c) 
of the Fair Labor Standards Act, which I think is wrong.
    My first question, Secretary Su, is will you commit to 
working with me and other Members of the House and the Senate 
to create more and better employment opportunities for people 
with disabilities and to expand competitive, integrated 
employment opportunities?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator Casey. And, yes, 
absolutely I would commit to working with you on that issue. I 
know that this Administration shares your concern about the 
sub-minimum wage. We believe that is a matter of equity and 
fairness, and certainly as we recover from this pandemic we 
have to make sure that we are creating as many employment 
opportunities, particularly for those who face additional 
barriers to employment, as we can to ensure the strongest 
recovery we can.
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
    I wanted to ask a question about the agency itself. As you 
know from your work in state government, and I had experience 
in state government as well, sometimes coming into a department 
and facing challenges that confront that agency becomes fairly 
common. I know that there are some concerns about what has 
transpired the last couple of years, including issues like 
staffing vacancies in critical parts of the Department. So you 
have some experience coming into an agency in state government 
that had some challenges. Can you talk about your experiences, 
then, in the context of taking over an agency at the state 
level and gaining the buy-in of new employees and the 
cooperation to achieve a mission and how that would prepare you 
to assume the role as Deputy Secretary?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator Casey. I really enjoyed 
our conversation about this particular point and the shared 
experiences we've had in managing government agencies.
    I take great pride in the investments that I have made in 
my time in leadership in the staff of the agencies that I've 
been a part of, and I think this goes back to Ranking Member 
Burr's initial question, too. I think one of the things I'm 
most excited about, if confirmed, is the opportunity to work 
directly with the career staff at the Department of Labor who I 
understand have felt somewhat marginalized over the last few 
years and who I think would be anxious and excited to work 
along with Mayor Walsh and hopefully me if I'm confirmed to 
really restore a sense of mission at the Department of Labor.
    I think it's really important to invest in staff. I always 
tell the staff I work with that I've spent my career fighting 
for working people. That includes my own staff. So really 
looking at the needs of our employees, the need for training, 
the need for clear direction, the opportunity to create 
creative teams in order to tackle different problems, the idea 
of setting clear vision and then allowing people to innovate 
and to make decisions in fulfillment of the Department's 
vision, those are all areas of work that I both have experience 
in and would be very, very excited to bring to the Department.
    Senator Casey. Thank you, Secretary Su.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Casey.
    I'll turn to Senator Collins.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Secretary Su, welcome. First let me say that I believe that 
every Member of this panel would agree with you that 
unemployment insurance is absolutely critical to individuals 
who have lost jobs through no fault of their own. However, 
there can be no excuse for the kind of rampant fraud that has 
been so prevalent in California.
    Now, I recognize that there has been UI fraud across the 
country, including in the State of Maine. But the sheer scale 
and scope of the fraud in California not only dwarfs that of 
every other state, to be at least $11.4 billion in fraud, but 
also seems to be directly related to directives that you 
issued. And these fraudulent payments are incredible: a $21,000 
payment to our colleague, Senator Diane Feinstein; $800 million 
worth of payments that went to prison inmates; 1,700 claims 
from a single address, yet they were paid.
    You gave a confusing answer, in my judgment, to Senator 
Burr about the directives that you issued. So I pulled up a 
press release that your department issued, and it says very 
clearly that you sent a memorandum to the Employment Department 
development director directing that department to temporarily 
suspend unemployment eligibility certifications. So, in other 
words, they're paying UI benefits before determining if the 
applicants are eligible. You also directed the agency to 
temporarily stop collecting eligibility certifications from 
claimants.
    Now, the U.S. Department of Labor did not waive those 
requirements, and a California state audit found that your 
directives jeopardized the integrity of the system. So do you 
disagree with the state auditor and with the Federal 
requirements? Why did you take those actions? Why did you 
jeopardize the integrity of the system?
    Ms. Su. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate in the hearing for 
Mayor Walsh you really laid out what was sort of the perfect 
storm in unemployment insurance benefits, the massive spike in 
claims on the heels of really record low levels of unemployment 
when the pandemic unemployment insurance funding was at a 50-
year low nationwide, along with technological challenges or 
failure to invest in technology. And layer on top of all of 
that, the fraud really created, again, like a perfect storm of 
challenges.
    First to your point about California. It's true, California 
has received a lot of attention because we are a very large 
state. As I said, California has processed one in five 
unemployment insurance claims in the entire country, more than 
Texas and New York combined, and we've also been very 
transparent about our challenges.
    I should note that fraud in the unemployment insurance 
system itself--the system that has to do with the eligibility 
requirements that you're talking about in California has been, 
even in the pandemic, in the last year, about 5 percent, which 
is comparable to what it is in years prior, comparable to what 
it was in 2019.
    The massive amount of fraud that you are legitimately 
concerned about--I am, too--occurred in the Pandemic 
Unemployment Assistance program, which did not have those same 
requirements. And on those, the 10 percent, the $11 billion or 
so, which is 10 percent of the total payments, that 10 percent 
is about the same as what the Department of Labor estimates is 
the fraud nationwide on the system.
    Again, I'm not trying to defend it or to justify it. I am 
putting it in context.
    We also did bring in an external strike team in California 
to look at why there were so many--why there were delays in 
payments, to dig deep and figure out what we needed to fix, and 
then we made that strike team report public, too. So I think 
transparency is very, very important in government. It has 
raised more attention on what we're doing in California, but it 
also then allows us to talk about the early and aggressive 
steps that we took, as I mentioned, to stop the fraud.
    The Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program was more 
vulnerable to fraud. I say it's one of the fronts in the war 
because we've all learned from--again, it was a balance there 
of wanting to get money out quickly because we needed to, and 
then once we saw the fraud we took immediate steps. Those steps 
led to the same steps being taken by the Department of Labor, 
instructing other states to do that, and Congress also took 
steps, including back in December with the Continued Assistance 
Act, putting in more criteria before payments could be made.
    This is a front of the war that's going to require all 
hands on deck, and my sense is that on the fraud piece, because 
every state has seen it and it has slowed payment in every 
state, it's further threatened technological systems that were 
already vulnerable, that we need a national approach to the 
national problem. And based on my firsthand experience in the 
trenches in California, I would bring that experience. I think 
we need people who understand and have a clear-eyed view of 
what the myriad problems are and how they interconnect and what 
we can do about them to both make sure that we're making 
payments when needed and we are stopping fraud where we need 
to.
    Senator Collins. Well, my time has expired. I will follow-
up with you on these issues because I still don't think I got 
an answer to my question about your suspending the 
requirements.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Collins.
    We'll turn to Senator Baldwin.
    Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Chair Murray.
    Thank you, Secretary Su, for joining us today. I look 
forward to your swift confirmation, and I look forward to 
working with you to address the many challenges that our 
Nation's workers and families and businesses are facing.
    Millions of essential health care workers, food service 
workers, and others have been on the front lines of this 
pandemic since it began, and I believe that it's time for the 
Congress and the Administration to step up and put their health 
and safety first.
    Included in the January 21st Executive Order on protecting 
worker health and safety, President Biden asked Congress to 
pass legislation that strengthens and expands OSHA's ability to 
protect workers, just as provisions in my COVID-19 Every Worker 
Protection Act would do.
    Do you believe that protecting worker health is central to 
combatting the spread of this pandemic? And do you believe that 
the issuance of an OSHA emergency temporary standard is still 
necessary to help protect workers from COVID and to help 
businesses safely reopen?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much for that question, Senator 
Baldwin. I so enjoyed our conversation, including our memories 
of childhood where my parents lived in Eagle Heights and what 
you said about the incredible diversity that you experienced as 
an elementary school student and how much that affected your 
whole worldview and your outlook. I really appreciated that.
    The answer to your question is I do agree that we need to 
do everything we can to protect the health and safety of 
workers. What we have seen in this pandemic is really just what 
happens when workers are forced to go to work without proper 
protections. I think a global pandemic really drives home the 
point that worker health is public health, and we need to be 
sure that we are doing what we can both as a matter of worker 
protection but also as a matter of public health protection. If 
we cannot stop the spread in workplaces, we cannot get a handle 
on the pandemic, and that is a key prerequisite to getting our 
economy back on track.
    At the heart of my decades of work has been protecting 
workers. I will say that in terms of--I think that there's also 
a very important role when we talk about workplace standards to 
do outreach to support employers who are working to put 
standards in place. I heard from hundreds of employers in 
California, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, about 
the need for help in trying to figure out what exactly needed 
to be done to create safe workplaces.
    To that end, in California we actually created an employer 
portal. What this does is it allows employers to enter in their 
address, their zip code, their industry, and it pulls from all 
the various guidance that is out there. It pulls from county 
public health guidance, workplace-specific guidance. It pulls 
from industry guidance and California State Public Health 
guidance in order to generate a roadmap for employers on what a 
site-specific workplace health and safety plan looks like. So 
it's an example of that I think we need to give employers the 
tools and clear guidance in order to protect their workers.
    In terms of your question about the emergency temporary 
standard, I know that this is something that the Department is 
still working on, and I expect that the results of their work 
and consideration over the last couple of months will be 
imminent.
    Senator Baldwin. Thank you. I want to continue on the topic 
of worker safety. The COVID-19 pandemic has worsened many 
issues that health care and social service workers were already 
experiencing before the pandemic began. According to the GAO, 
these workers experienced incidents of violence at 12 times the 
rate for the overall workforce.
    My Workplace Violence Prevention for Health Care and Social 
Service Workers Act would direct OSHA to create a standard to 
better protect these workers. Will you commit to placing this 
important safety issue back on the Department's agenda and work 
with this Committee to help tackle the issue of violence in the 
workplace?
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I see that my time is up, 
so I will say that I definitely agree that preventing violence 
in the workplace is very important, and I would look forward to 
working with you on that issue.
    Senator Baldwin. Thank you.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Baldwin.
    Senator Cassidy.
    [Pause.]
    The Chair. Senator Cassidy is not in line. We'll turn to 
Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Chair Murray, Ranking Member 
Burr, and Ms. Su. It was good to visit with you. I enjoyed our 
visit the other day.
    I think the questions that are asked about the fraud issues 
are important, but I do want to share a Virginia perspective, 
because we were really beset with some similar challenges.
    At the time that the pandemic hit us, we were at a record 
low unemployment, and that also led in Virginia, and I'm 
assuming in California and elsewhere--staffing levels at our 
agencies had also dropped pretty significantly as the 
unemployment rate had come down for a number of years.
    Congress, wanting to do the right thing, thank goodness, in 
a bipartisan way, did three things to put real significant 
burdens on our state unemployment agencies. First, we expanded 
the unemployment benefit, the additional $600 a week, and 
that's now being revised as we go. But that was an initial 
challenge, take the state normal reimbursement rate and add 
that $600 to it.
    Second, we extended the number of weeks that someone could 
claim unemployment insurance. Again, that was a smart thing to 
do.
    But the third thing that was probably the really 
challenging thing was the PUA program, which dramatically 
expanded the universe of people who could get unemployment. I 
think I've often heard my colleague, Senator Warner, say that, 
sadly, in the current American workforce, only about 30 percent 
of American workers fit within the traditional UI model because 
it was designed so long ago. So now we have gig workers and 
part-timers and self-employed and sole proprietors. We have 
this huge universe of people who aren't in the system at all. 
And again acting quickly, as we needed to, we said, hey, look, 
this is a group of people that has some significant need right 
now, so we want to create an unemployment insurance program for 
them as well.
    Now, as I understood your answer to Senator Collins' 
question, it sounds like the fraud challenges that you dealt 
with in California, and are still dealing with, and we are in 
Virginia too, are disproportionately in that third program, 
Congress' mandate that states offer unemployment benefits to 
this massive universe of people who had never been in the 
system before. Did I understand that answer correctly?
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you so much, Senator. I enjoyed our 
conversation very much, too.
    That is exactly correct. Over 95 percent of the fraud that 
we have experienced in California is in that Pandemic 
Unemployment Assistance program, which, as you said, by design 
was intended for people who were not eligible for regular 
unemployment insurance. It did not have the same checks against 
your employer or look at your prior earnings at the outset of 
the program.
    Senator Kaine. Our design of it--again, we were trying to 
act quickly because the economy needed it, so I'm not saying we 
did anything wrong, but that expansion at a time when staffing 
levels were already at historic lows, it created fraud 
challenges in Virginia. It created unacceptable backlogs. I 
mean, people were flooding my offices with calls about how 
come, I'm supposed to qualify, I see what Congress has done, 
but I can't get an answer.
    I think these are significant challenges, and I do think 
there has to be an answer about how we dealt with it, did we 
deal with it correctly or not. But there also has to be an 
answer for us because I think one of the challenges coming out 
of the pandemic is do we have a UI system that's fit for the 
21st century versus a UI system that's designed for the 1950's. 
I mean, if we're going to have now a workforce that is largely 
maybe gig workers and sole proprietors and part-timers and 
things like that who aren't included in traditional UI, a 
question that we have to grapple with on the HELP Committee and 
in Congress generally is do we need to broaden the UI system? 
And if so, how do we do it, how do we pay for it, how do we 
avoid fraud, how do we avoid unacceptable waiting times for 
people to get benefits if we decide that they're entitled to 
them?
    I think it's a really important issue not just because of 
past performance for all of us, but I think there's probably 
forward-looking reforms that we might have to make, and the 
experience of people flooding in and saying, well, I'm a sole 
proprietor so you should give me benefits, it turns out they're 
not, we will probably have to have different fraud detection 
mechanisms if we expand the universe in that way than we would 
with traditional employees.
    Let me ask you this. If we're going to do an infrastructure 
economic recovery bill, and I hope we will, I really worry that 
we don't have the workforce currently to do infrastructure. We 
don't have a sizable enough workforce to do infrastructure. The 
last question I'll ask is at DOL, how would you contemplate 
working together with the Secretary to think about the 
workforce challenges attendant upon hopefully a significant 
infrastructure investment?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. I think this is one of 
the biggest opportunities we have to align the skills of the 
American workforce, especially coming out of this period of 
unemployment and economic difficulty, with the need to rebuild, 
an opportunity to rebuild infrastructure. Every goal that we 
have, every opportunity that we have to ensure a clean climate, 
to build enough housing, to ensure that we have roads and a 
transportation system and bridges that work, and schools, all 
of these are opportunities to create good jobs in the 
communities that need them the most, and I think that aligning 
our workforce system so that we are training for those jobs, 
and also ensuring equity and access to those jobs, that those 
who face the greatest barriers to employment who might 
otherwise be left out, we have an opportunity to be very 
thoughtful about all of those goals, and I really see them as 
opportunities, and I would look very forward to working with 
you and with the people at the Department of Labor to make 
those things happen if I'm confirmed.
    Senator Kaine. I've run over my time. Thank you, Chair 
Murray.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Kaine.
    Senator Murkowski.
    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Su, welcome, and thank you for the opportunity to have 
the conversation that we did. I appreciated the discussion, 
much of which you've raised here today with regards to 
unemployment insurance and how we deal with the matters of 
fraud. I think what Senator Kaine has raised just in terms of 
recognizing that going forward we need to be looking really 
structurally at that system that was built perhaps on a model 
that folks really didn't anticipate we would see these changes 
in this very mobile, very nimble workforce of today.
    You and I didn't have an opportunity to speak to it in our 
conversation, but I understand that when you had a chance to 
visit with some of the staff here on the HELP Committee, the 
issue of H2A/H2B visas came up. I know that is something 
significant from my perspective with Alaska's seasonal 
workforce. And while that is something that is not exclusively 
within Department of Labor, it shares with Homeland as well, 
that is a matter that we struggle every season at just about 
this time of year to ensure that we have the necessary numbers 
of seafood workers able to come to the state, again for a very 
reduced season. And working within Department of Labor, with 
the folks over at Homeland, to assure that those visas are able 
to be issued is something that continues to be a priority.
    I wish that I didn't have to come back every year and make 
this case and make this argument. We would like to get a 
permanent fix, and we would hope that we would be able to work 
within the Department to achieve just that.
    Just to follow on a little bit to what Senator Kaine 
mentioned with regards to what we're seeing with the gig 
worker, the regulations that we have in place currently, which 
define employee versus independent contractor, are ones that we 
see come into play for discussion and great debate from time to 
time. What steps--just kind of general conversation here--what 
steps would you take if you're confirmed to address these 
regulations as they relate to definitions of employee versus 
independent contractor?
    Ms. Su. Well, thank you very much, Senator. And thank you 
also for the conversation that we had prior to this hearing.
    I think that question is very important. It's important in 
our economy. I think that every worker who goes to work when 
they have the protections of employee status, they know that 
they will be protected by minimum wage and overtime laws. They 
know that they will be protected by workplace health and safety 
laws. They know that if they are injured, they have worker's 
compensation, and if they are unemployed they will get the 
unemployment insurance benefits. So this question is really 
important to the basic protections in the workplace.
    I will also say that in my years of working in government, 
I have met with thousands of employers who speak about the need 
for a level playing field, who say that it is extremely 
difficult to comply with labor laws if their competition is 
allowed to evade those same labor laws, creating a race to the 
bottom.
    I think that these issues are at the heart of the question 
that you asked. If confirmed, I would work closely with the 
Solicitor and the staff at the Department of Labor to be 
thoughtful, to seek input about guidance, and I think that the 
principles of worker protection and level playing field are 
just so important, especially as we look to what it means to 
build back better, what it means to build an economy that works 
for everybody.
    I will also say something just on your question about H2Bs. 
I think that's a really important issue too, and if confirmed, 
I would work again with the Department to ensure that we have 
both timeliness and consistency of consideration of the visas 
that you're talking about, knowing how important they are 
especially to your state and to others.
    Senator Murkowski. Thank you for that.
    My time is just about expired. But to the point about 
workforce and workforce development, we have good, strong 
training programs within our unions within the state. They do a 
great job. We've got a Job Corps that we think should be more 
of a model around the country in terms of how we ensure that it 
is workers trained for the jobs that are available, but would 
hope that you would have an opportunity to look to some of the 
successes that we have with our specific job training.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Murkowski.
    We'll turn to Senator Hassan.
    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair and 
Ranking Member Burr.
    Thank you, Secretary Su, for being here today, and thank 
you for your willingness to serve.
    I want to start with two questions about retirement, and 
then I have a couple of other questions if we get through 
those.
    As you know, the United States Department of Labor is 
tasked with helping more workers save for retirement and 
helping retirees protect and utilize their savings. We know 
that Americans of all ages are struggling to save for 
retirement, and many American workers and retirees are at risk 
of outliving their retirement savings. One recent survey found 
that one in five Americans in their 70's have less than $50,000 
saved.
    As Deputy Secretary of Labor, what policies would you focus 
on to help American workers save more for retirement?
    Ms. Su. Thank you very much, Senator. I think this is such 
an important issue. Americans work so hard so that they can 
have a safe and secure retirement. I know from, again, my mom's 
experience that the pension that she has that now allows she 
and my father to live in retirement is absolutely critical to 
their health and their well-being.
    A couple of things on that. I would say the issue you're 
raising is why the multi-employer pension relief that was part 
of the American Rescue Plan was so important, again just making 
sure that employees who have been paying into retirement and 
relying on their pensions get them is very, very critical.
    Then I think that retirement savers also need to get the 
kind of advice that they need to make sure that they're 
investing their retirement in the best way possible for 
themselves. And if confirmed, I look forward to being briefed 
on the rulemaking process at the Department of Labor on this 
issue and to understanding what we can do to better protect 
retirees, which is a basic part of the fundamental mission of 
the Department.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. In addition to helping more 
Americans save for retirement, I believe we also have to work 
to protect retirement accounts from potential cyber security 
threats. Yesterday, following a request from myself, Madam 
Chair, and House Education and Labor Chair Bobby Scott, the 
Government Accountability Office released a report highlighting 
the threat that cyber attacks pose to retirement plans. The 
report confirmed that cyber threats put private defined 
contribution retirement plans like 401(k)'s by more than 100 
million Americans at risk and recommends that the Department of 
Labor take action to address this issue. I believe that 
Congress and the Department obviously must do everything that 
we can to protect against these cyber security risks.
    As Deputy Secretary of Labor, what policies would you focus 
on to help ensure the security of retirement plans?
    Ms. Su. I think that issue of ensuring against cyber 
attacks, we've certainly seen again in the last year, and even 
in this conversation, just how important that is, and I would 
again seek a full briefing from the Department on the steps 
that are already in place, do an assessment along with the 
Secretary on what else we need to do, how we need to make sure 
that they're stronger and definitely consider this a very high 
priority, especially as we know that the President has actually 
called for providing almost all workers with access to a 401(k) 
of some sort. So I think it absolutely will be a priority for 
me and for the Department.
    Senator Hassan. I also think it's going to take convening 
not only government experts and agencies but the private 
sector, too.
    Ms. Su. Absolutely.
    Senator Hassan. Because this has to be a joint effort, and 
it's critically important to the economic security of so many 
Americans, right?
    Ms. Su. Without a doubt. And I think that is a--the point 
of creating more public-private partnerships, especially in 
things like this where there is tremendous expertise in the 
private sector, bringing that to bear on the challenges that we 
face in government is, I think, also very, very important, and 
I look forward to learning about partnerships that already 
exist and building on those, and also finding where there are 
gaps and making sure that we fill them.
    Senator Hassan. All right, thank you. And let's turn to one 
other issue quickly. As Secretary of the California Labor and 
Workforce Development Agency, you have firsthand experience 
executing traditional unemployment insurance programs and 
expanded benefits at the state level. While states have primary 
responsibility for distributing unemployment insurance, the 
Department of Labor plays a significant role as well.
    Based on your own experience, how can the Department of 
Labor better support states administering these programs, and 
should Congress consider reforms to improve the administration 
of unemployment insurance going forward?
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I see that I don't have a 
lot of time, but I'll try to--I do think this connects to 
Senator Kaine and Senator Murkowski, the points about that we 
have an opportunity now to look at the unemployment insurance 
system, how it works and how it doesn't.
    At the first level I would say that the Department of 
Labor, in providing consistent and clear guidance, is 
absolutely critical to the states. Again, I have seen firsthand 
the importance of that consistency. And because it is a 
Federal-state program, I think there are many opportunities for 
better collaboration both on the administration of benefits and 
on the fight against fraud in a collaborative way between the 
Federal Government and all the states.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Cassidy.
    Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Su, I enjoyed our conversation on the phone.
    Just to follow-up a little bit on what Senator Hassan said, 
and some others, she asked, going off of her last question 
regarding how can DOL better support a state agency, to return 
to an earlier line of questioning by others--obviously, one of 
the concerns, and just to hear your straightforward response to 
this, is that the DOL Office of Inspector General had warned 
your state agency in May 2020 that at least $1.2 billion in 
benefits paid out in March and April were potentially 
fraudulent.
    It seems as if these red flags were being raised and were 
not addressed by your department in California until August 
2020, at which point the $600 stimulus checks had run out. It 
kind of begs the question why did your agency not respond more 
quickly? And if DOL has to do more, what more should DOL do to 
have an agency be more responsive?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. Thank you for our 
conversation also.
    I think on those questions, again, the perfect storm of 
challenges that we faced in California that all states faced, 
there was the Federal Department of Labor's warning about 
fraud. That itself has also really been evolving over time. The 
estimate of what the fraud was at the beginning has gone up 
because we have seen that the massive attacks, they weren't the 
typical kind of fraud that usually hits the unemployment----
    Senator Cassidy. Well, let me ask, because I understand 
that the specific thing pinpointed was the lack of 
identification, insufficient requirement for identification. 
Now, that seems as if that would be roughly scalable; that, 
yes, we have a lot more, but we still have to check your 
identity because whether it's few or many, we have to know it's 
truly somebody who is worthy, who exists, is actually applying, 
and DOL flagged that.
    I guess I'll just go back to my question. What could DOL 
have done differently, and why was there such a hesitancy in 
your department to respond to the warnings they did give?
    Ms. Su. Senator, that question really goes to Senator 
Kaine's point. The concern that the DOL OIG raised was because, 
by design, the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program was 
meant to pay out to individuals who were not eligible for 
regular UI and who did not have either employer records, which 
the traditional UI system checks against, or prior earnings, 
which the traditional UI system guards against. As I mentioned, 
in California, that kind of fraud was comparable to prior years 
of fraud.
    The massive fraud was in a system that, by design, did not 
have those in place, and I believe what the DOL was doing was 
raising the concern about that.
    The other vulnerability in the system was what is known as 
automatic backdating, basically when somebody applied for PUA, 
they could get benefits back to the beginning of the pandemic. 
It was that vulnerability that became exploited. Now, the rule 
that the DOL had at the time was automatic backdating. Again, 
once we saw the spike in those claims, which was in August, in 
the first weeks of September we shut down automatic backdating. 
That then triggered the Department of Labor followed by 
instructing all states to do so.
    Again, I think that this is a front on the battle that we 
have to bring--build a table with experts to really be smart 
about how we address them, collaborate between the states so 
the states are not fighting the battle on their own. But at the 
end of the day, truly understanding what happened and why it 
happened is going to be very important for fixing the problem.
    Senator Cassidy. Next let me ask, as regards multi-employer 
pension funds, which Senator Hassan just raised, because I 
think you'll be part of that process, $86 billion in debt was 
wiped away with no structural changes made. We could begin re-
accumulating that debt.
    What ideas do you have that could prevent us from just 
getting another $86 billion until we blow out spending some 
time in the future and don't pay for it in a way to clear the 
deck?
    Ms. Su. Senator, without a lot of time left to address that 
fully, I will say that I will commit to working on that issue, 
if confirmed. I think that relates to my general approach, 
which is that I do think we have to solve problems before they 
become bigger problems, and being clear-eyed and thoughtful and 
bringing experts to the table to really understand the problem, 
how we got there and how we prevent it in the future I would 
assure you would be a priority of mine in my approach to the 
job if I'm confirmed.
    Senator Cassidy. Okay, thank you.
    I yield back.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Murphy.
    Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
    Welcome. Thank you for your prior service and your 
willingness to serve at the Federal level.
    I wanted to stay on the topic of your service in California 
but on a different subject, and that is a law that California 
has had on the books for a while effectively banning the use of 
something called non-compete agreements. Non-compete agreements 
cover today about 20 percent of U.S. employees. They impact 
low-skilled and low-wage workers, just as they impact higher-
skill and higher-wage workers, and they are inherently non-
competitive. They effectively give employers a veto right over 
an employee's right to choose where they work.
    This is becoming a real area of bipartisan agreement. We 
have legislation modeled after California's in Congress now 
that's supported by a bipartisan coalition of Senators. And so 
while this is an issue that will more likely be regulated by 
the FTC than Labor, the Department of Labor still has the 
ability to glean information about the impact of non-competes. 
President Biden ran on a promise to address this issue.
    I wanted to ask you about what your experience is in 
California with a fairly rigorous restriction on non-compete 
agreements and whether you'd be willing to work with the 
Committee and with the Senate to at least make sure that the 
DOL provides relevant information to help us make a decision 
moving forward on this issue.
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you so much, Senator. Absolutely, yes, 
to working together on this issue if I'm confirmed. I think 
this is one of those examples of how something that's good for 
workers is actually also good for employers. The ability for 
employers to attract and train the talent that they need, I 
think it's just a very important part of, again, the many areas 
of common ground, that when we do something that protects 
workers, there's also a benefit to employers. So absolutely, 
yes, to working on the issue together.
    Senator Murphy. My sense is that in California you found 
that the existing protections for intellectual property and 
trade secrets is sufficient in order to make sure that 
employees who are leaving one firm that's highly dependent on 
IP doesn't take it and bring it illegally to another company. 
It's important for folks to remember that just because the non-
compete agreement may not be available to employers, they 
aren't bereft of other mechanisms to stop the illegal transfer 
of intellectual property. Is that correct?
    Ms. Su. Absolutely, Senator. Yes.
    Senator Murphy. The second topic that I wanted to touch on 
is related to this issue of unemployment but specific to the 
issue of long-term unemployment. We have a workforce training 
agency in Connecticut called The WorkPlace that has been 
featured in national publications and national media because 
they have specifically attacked this issue of long-term 
unemployment with a program called Platform to Employment. And 
it recognizes the fact that for folks that have been out of the 
workforce for a very long time, for years in some cases, there 
are all sorts of ancillary effects to that individual and to 
that family that have to be dealt with in order to get them 
back into the workforce, and I think we're going to be looking 
at a very large population of long-term unemployed once we 
finally turn the corner.
    Is this something that you have looked at specifically in a 
targeted way in California? Do you think it's worthwhile for 
the Department of Labor to think about this specific population 
of individuals who have been out of the workforce for a long 
time--frankly, right now, they don't even show up in our 
statistics--and look at programs like Platform to employ others 
that have had success in bringing people back into the 
workforce?
    Ms. Su. That's right. Thank you, Senator. Yes, I think that 
it is definitely a population that needs and deserves our 
attention, again especially coming out of the pandemic, where 
we have seen long periods of unemployment for individuals and, 
frankly, people dropping out of the labor force as a result, 
disproportionately women workers. So I think that there is a 
tremendous need to target our workforce programs on those who 
face the greatest challenges, and the long-term unemployed are 
certainly one of those.
    I will also just note that I know there are innovative and 
effective programs in your state and other states that we ought 
to be building on, and California too. We have invested in what 
we call high-road training partnerships, really demand-driven 
partnerships between employers and employees where industry 
comes together with business, management, labor, community 
colleges and other educational institutions, and community-
based organizations to support people who try to get into the 
workforce, and creating opportunities for high-road jobs where 
people can actually support a family and lift themselves out of 
poverty.
    I think finding those innovations and figuring out how we 
duplicate them, where appropriate, is something I would love to 
do, and I know there are models in your state that we could 
use.
    Senator Murphy. That's great to hear. Platform to 
Employment has an 80 percent success rate, and some economists 
suggest one out of three jobs that have disappeared during the 
pandemic aren't coming back. So this is going to be a problem 
that we all have to deal with.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Murphy.
    Senator Smith.
    Senator Smith. Thank you, Madam Chair and Ranking Member 
Burr. It's great to be with everyone.
    Secretary Su, I'm so happy to see you here and grateful for 
your willingness to serve, and I just want to thank you so much 
and congratulate you on your nomination.
    I'm struck listening to this conversation and the questions 
from my colleagues about how important the Department of Labor 
is right now, and how the Department of Labor was envisioned as 
an agency, as an advocate for working people, and how crucial 
that is, especially as we emerge from COVID, a pandemic that 
has laid bare so many of the inequities in our system, and a 
pandemic that has had a particularly hard impact on women and 
people of color. So I, for one, am really grateful for your 
leadership, your management and experience, and the capacity 
that you can bring to this role.
    I want to just take a minute of my time also to note how 
exciting it is that we have finally made progress in the 
American Rescue Plan on passing essentially the Butch Lewis 
Act, which will ensure that retirees and people who have 
counted on their pension through a multi-employer pension plan 
know that those pensions are going to be secure. This is 
something that I've worked on carefully and hard with Senator 
Brown and Senator Baldwin and many others. So it is fantastic 
that we've been able to get this done, and it is going to make 
such a difference to the 22,000 Minnesotans who count on the 
Central States pension for their safe and secure retirement, 
and for thousands and thousands more folks around the country. 
So I just wanted to take a moment to mention that.
    Secretary Su, I want to ask you a question about wage 
theft. According to the Economic Policy Institute, Americans 
lose three times more in wage theft than they do in street 
robberies, bank robberies, gas station robberies, and 
convenience store robberies combined. And this is, of course, 
disproportionately impacting low-wage workers, women, and 
workers of color, who are more often than not the victims of 
wage theft.
    I understand that you have done a lot of work on this in 
California, so I wonder if you could share with us how you 
think about wage theft and what do you think the Department of 
Labor should be doing to better stop it.
    Ms. Su. Well, thank you so much, Senator. Actually, that 
statistic is one that I used when I was leading what's the 
equivalent of the Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division 
in California both as a grounding and as a motivation for the 
importance of our work, so thank you for that.
    I think that wage theft is one of those phenomena that 
fundamentally disrupts the basic promise of our society, that 
somebody who goes to work should be paid what they were 
promised. So I think the Department of Labor has a very 
important role to play. Again, in California, I launched the 
Wage Theft is a Crime campaign when I oversaw that department. 
What we did was we eliminated the random, scattershot 
inspections. I don't think that it's beneficial for employers 
or employees or, frankly, for government when our 
investigations are random. I think it's really important to 
focus on those who willfully break the law and make sure that 
we send a clear message that's not going to be tolerated.
    I also think it's very important to put the right tools in 
the hands of our staff. When I had that position in California 
I invested in technology, in making sure that we had tablets in 
the field, making sure that employees have what they need to do 
their jobs effectively. And then we engaged in outreach with 
employers and with employees to make sure that people knew what 
the rules were that they were supposed to play by, and that we 
were hearing about the effects of our enforcement.
    I think it's a really important priority, a very important 
responsibility of the Department, and I understand it is one 
where it could use some attention. If confirmed, I would look 
forward to bringing a strategic and thoughtful approach to the 
fight against wage theft.
    Senator Smith. Thank you, and I look forward to working 
with you on that. You are talking about the value of 
technology. I totally agree with you on that. And also the 
importance of enforcement. If there isn't good enforcement, 
then people will continue to try to push the rules, the bad 
employers will continue to try to push the rules, and too often 
working people just don't have the power to protect themselves 
in these circumstances.
    I also agree with you on the power of communications to 
make sure that employers and employees understand what's 
happening and how they can fight it. So, thank you very much.
    Ms. Su. Thank you, Senator.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Burr, did you have an additional question?
    Senator Rosen.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Madam Chair, I appreciate it.
    Thank you, Ms. Su, for being here, for stepping forward to 
serve, for your inspiring family story. I really enjoyed our 
conversation, and I know how much you'll do to support working 
families who really are the backbone not just of Nevada but of 
this entire nation. They make our tourism, our hospitality, our 
entertainment economy possible for my home state, and I look 
forward to working with you.
    But we have a lot of work to do, and I'd like to focus a 
little bit on the cyber workforce, because one of the things I 
really enjoyed talking with you about is apprenticeship 
programs, particularly in the IT and cyber fields. We tend to 
think of apprenticeships as just related to the building trades 
because they work so well there, but I believe that we really 
could expand the model to strengthen the pipelines in the 
critical IT and cyber security industries. This is going to 
give more young people a chance at these good-paying jobs or 
folks who want to be retrained for jobs.
    I've introduced bipartisan legislation to help create and 
expand registered apprenticeship programs in cyber security, 
and I look forward to working with you on that when you're 
confirmed.
    Can you talk about some of the work you did in California 
in this field and how you work to scale these programs at a 
Federal level? We all care about apprenticeships. How do we 
expand these opportunities in our states?
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you very much for that, Senator. I would 
say that this topic of workforce development and job training 
programs and how we invest in those who need jobs came up in 
nearly every one of my conversations with the Senators on this 
Committee. So I look forward, if confirmed, to working with 
everybody on these really important issues.
    In terms of apprenticeships, you are absolutely right, I 
loved our conversation about it, and I certainly found in 
California that it is one of the strongest ways we have both to 
meet the needs of employers and to create pathways for 
individuals who might not otherwise have the opportunity for 
good jobs. As you said, apprenticeships in the building trades 
have really set the gold standard and created an opening for us 
to look at how we utilize the model of learn and earn, how we 
help people who otherwise wouldn't be able to stop working or 
to get training to train for good-paying, middle-class jobs.
    I think a big part of making apprenticeships work is the 
partnership, is creating alignment between employers and 
employees, educational institutions, community-based 
organizations, and to create systems that really support the 
needs of employers and the needs of employees for jobs. I know 
I've talked to apprentices who got out of a domestic violence 
situation because they were given a chance to be an apprentice, 
who lived in homeless shelters but through an apprenticeship 
found a job working at a high-end hotel as a cook. I mentioned 
high-road training partnerships earlier. We have a hospitality 
training academy, a partnership with Local 11, which has 
trained individuals for hospitality jobs.
    To your point, Senator, about cyber security, I think 
that's one of those in-demand jobs. They're good-paying jobs, 
and they're jobs that have already been identified as if we're 
not deliberate about diversity and access for communities, then 
it will not happen on its own.
    Apprenticeships is a way for us to make sure that we create 
equal access to these jobs. And I've certainly talked to 
apprentices for whom their time in school, in high school, it 
didn't make sense to them why they were learning about right 
angles or measurements. But when you put them into an 
apprenticeship where they're really learning how these things 
apply in the real world, it makes a really big difference.
    Senator Rosen. I want to build on that really quickly with 
the minute I have left, because women have been hit the hardest 
in this pandemic. You were talking about it, apprenticeships 
and training people or retraining people. But I want to focus 
on returnships where we create pathways for mid-career workers 
who return to the workforce. We know this pandemic has really 
impacted women, their ability to return maybe after having to 
step away for child care or other caregiving. I have a STEM 
Restart Act that's going to create a national program that 
would bridge the gap between workers who are more likely to be 
long-term unemployed and underrepresented in STEM, and so I 
would love to talk to you about this idea not just of 
apprenticeships but returnships for that mid-career worker who 
really needs to retool for a variety of reasons or jobs now 
that may not even come back after the pandemic.
    Ms. Su. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you so much. I think 
there's a spectrum, from pre-apprenticeships to what you're 
talking about for incumbent workers and upward mobility, all 
very important. Thank you.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you very much. I really look forward 
to working with you, and my time has expired.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Rosen.
    We'll turn to Senator Marshall.
    Senator Marshall. I thank the Madam Chair, and welcome as 
well.
    I think my first question, as potentially to be the Deputy 
Secretary of the Department of Labor, your State of California, 
like our State of Kansas, really struggled with fraud in the 
unemployment insurance, really struggled and continue to 
struggle. What lessons did we learn, and what was the cause of 
it? Under your new leadership, what would you do to help stop 
the fraud?
    Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. So, yes, what I've 
described really as a perfect storm during this pandemic of 
very high demand for benefits on the heels of very low levels 
of unemployment, which in the UI world translates into very low 
levels of staffing, and then on top of that infrastructure and 
capacity issues, I think all of those provide important 
lessons. And then on top of that we have to layer what you 
mentioned. I know you experienced it in your state; we did in 
ours, of course, and it really hit state after state. The 
fraud, the criminal enterprise type of fraud, I think it's so 
important to understand just the scope and the scale and the 
relentlessness of the kind of fraud that we faced, which is a 
different animal really than what the unemployment insurance 
system was built to prevent.
    I will answer this question with what I think are four 
basic lessons. The first I talked about earlier, which is I do 
think the Department of Labor's consistent and clear guidance 
about what the states need to do to implement benefit programs, 
especially new benefit programs at the Federal level that have 
not been in place before is really critical. That kind of 
guidance has to come out timely, it has to be clear, and it has 
to stay consistent.
    The second is those investments in infrastructure, and by 
this I mean technology but not just technology. In fact, in 
many of the states where technology upgrades had been made, 
they were still hit by the kinds of fraud schemes that we're 
talking about. So it's the ability to create a flexible, 
reliable system that works but that is also nimble enough to 
respond to what we've seen over the last year.
    The third is that I think that we need a coordinated 
response to the fraud that recognizes it was a national 
problem. It has been called the biggest fraud scheme in United 
States history. It is a national threat, and it needs to be 
responded to with a national response.
    Now, it should be done as a Federal-state partnership. The 
states have struggled against significant odds to process the 
unprecedented volume of claims and to implement new Federal 
programs and I think would welcome that kind of partnership 
with the Federal Government.
    The last piece I would just say is we still have to pay 
attention to equity in all of this. We saw that the pandemic 
disproportionately hit African American workers, Hispanic 
workers, Pacific Islander workers, women workers, and our 
unemployment insurance benefits system has to be aware of and 
responsive to those kinds of needs. This applies also to rural 
workers----
    Senator Marshall. I need to move on to the next question, 
if you don't mind. Thank you for that answer.
    Our state of Kansas, our Governor, also struggled mightily 
getting out the unemployment insurance benefits. It's the 
number-one complaint we get from Kansans, typically still 
getting 15 complaints a day, story after story, people crying 
and calling and saying, look, we don't have money to pay for 
electricity, enough money to go get groceries, waiting on those 
unemployment checks still. So here's fraud happening. The 
people who need it aren't getting it. Would you add anything 
else to what you would do to improve that situation as well, 
other than the four points you already made?
    Ms. Su. I agree. I think that was the challenge, and I 
think understanding the multiple reasons why that happened. But 
your point is that there is a tension between paying benefits 
out quickly to those who need them and stopping the fraud. The 
unemployment insurance system is a constant effort to make sure 
that we do both of those things well. I would say that the 
priorities I raised but other ideas that I know this Committee 
is likely to have based on the multiple experiences in your 
state, I would very much welcome conversations about how we 
tackle it.
    Senator Marshall. Okay. Next I just want to go really at a 
high level, at least a 20,000-foot-high level, maybe even 
higher. Right now, employers are trying to figure out how to 
make a safe work environment with COVID, and we realize the 
science is not settled. The science is never settled. With 
viruses, the only predictability about them is that they're 
unpredictable.
    We've been told to wear one mask, no mask, two masks. We've 
been told to have our kids three feet apart, six feet apart, 
and the truth is we don't know, that we're shooting from the 
hip. The science is really a stretch, for the most part.
    But your guidance to employers is going to have a huge 
impact. You set the gold standard, you set the bar, this is 
what an employer needs to do. Just kind of describe how you 
look at that situation, maybe not real specifically, but what 
rules will guide you, your values?
    Ms. Su. I think that's right, Senator. We have to be based 
on science. We have to be based on our evolving understanding 
of the virus that we face. And I agree with you that is why as 
clear guidance as we can put out so that employers know what 
they need to do to keep their employees safe, but also 
themselves, right? What's required in order for them to keep 
their business operating, it's very important for us to be 
based in science, and then to make sure that we are doing as 
much outreach as we can so that employers understand their 
obligations. And then, as I talked about earlier, creating 
tools for employers who are struggling to comply to do so.
    Senator Marshall. The point I'm trying to make is there's 
not good science, and you try to apply the science, but the 
science we're getting now is not the Gospel. Half of it is 
wrong; I just don't know which half.
    Thank you so much for being here.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    The Chair. Thank you very much.
    Senator Hickenlooper.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Sorry about that. I'm going to get 
this muting and unmuting eventually.
    First I want to congratulate you, Ms. Su, on your 
nomination to be Deputy Secretary. It's a tremendous honor, 
obviously, and you being the child of immigrants, it is a great 
inspirational message to people all over this country, and I 
know you're going to bring the same passion and experience to 
your new role.
    I listened with interest to your discussion with Senator 
Rosen about apprenticeships. I come at it from a slightly 
different point of view, with the recognition that almost half 
of the American workforce is in small businesses, and yet 70 
percent or over 70 percent of all American workers actually had 
their first job with a small business. But we know that growth 
is hindered when those positions that need to be filled need 
technical training or some form of certification. I think small 
businesses in health care or in technology, manufacturing, 
computer technology, these all need some sort of support in 
getting skilled workers, especially when they are small 
businesses.
    Are there ways that the public sector can assist private 
industry in these cases for the challenge, and would one of 
those ways be looking at a new form of apprenticeship and what 
that might mean for providing skilled employees to small 
businesses?
    Ms. Su. Well, thank you very much, Senator. Yes, I think 
that the apprenticeship model could certainly apply there. 
Apprenticeships are win/win, and looking at how we might meet 
the needs of employers of all sizes in industries like 
manufacturing, and related to our conversation about 
infrastructure, where are the jobs that we have and how do we 
create opportunities for people to be trained in those jobs and 
to do them.
    I also think that there are opportunities for government to 
help create bridges, right? A lot of our work is about aligning 
systems. So when you do have private industry that says I have 
the need for these workers, most of our employers are small, so 
the investments we would have to make in training site by site 
are really particularly high. We can look at opportunities to 
create broader training efforts for multiple employers and 
small employers that would help to meet their needs and again 
create those opportunities for good jobs for people who might 
not otherwise know about those jobs or might not otherwise 
acquire the skills for them.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Great, we agree on that.
    Let me switch gears a little bit. Back when I was a mayor, 
and that's a long time ago, we became aware of critical 
shortages in various industries for workers, but at the same 
time we saw again and again the lack of utilizing our senior 
workforce, and I think part of that comes back to the skills 
training that's hard to figure out how do we get people who are 
mid-career or toward the end of their career to get refreshed 
on skills training so that they are able to take on some of 
these jobs where we clearly have a need. I think Senator Rosen 
talked a little bit about this, as well, but this is kind of a 
different aspect of that.
    Ms. Su. Yes, Senator, that's right. I do think that is, 
though, another important aspect of the opportunities and 
training that's needed. I know we talked about this in our 
conversation, and I appreciated that. In California, we have 
what is called a Master Plan on Aging, which is meant to look 
at the needs of older Californians, and there is both the need 
on the--it raised all kinds of questions around care, but it 
also raises all kinds of questions for people staying in the 
workforce longer and what are the supports that are needed, 
what are the training as conditions in the workplace evolve, 
and I think those are all a really important part of our 
workforce challenges that, if confirmed, I would love to work 
with you on, and also work with good staff in the Department 
on.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Thank you. I look forward to 
working with you.
    I've got 20 seconds. If you could very concisely just talk 
a little bit about the skills gap in cyber security in terms of 
small businesses and kind of a commitment to help us tackle 
that.
    Ms. Su. Right. So, cyber security has been growing. It is a 
growth area. There are tens of thousands of cyber security jobs 
in large and small businesses, public and private, throughout 
the United State, and we have an opportunity to create a 
skilled workforce for those good, high-paying jobs, and I'd be 
very committed to working on that issue.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Thank you so much.
    I yield.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Braun.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Secretary Lu, enjoyed our conversation. We covered a wide 
range of topics. I think it went up to a half-an-hour or so. I 
know we've only got 5 minutes here.
    You've come from a unique spot, being labor secretary in 
one of the largest economies in the world. I'd love to know 
what you think has worked well in California that you'd like to 
see happen on a Federal basis, and I'd like you to also put it 
in context. My own company that got to California roughly 10 
years ago, we recognize it as a fairly austere state when it 
comes to regulations of all sorts, and I think your report card 
would be graded by how many businesses choose to move into a 
state versus moving out. Maybe it's mostly anecdotal, but from 
our own experience we would say that it's not necessarily a 
business-friendly environment.
    That being said, tell me what you think you've done well in 
California, what you think you've done poorly at, and what 
you'd want to bring to the Federal level.
    Ms. Su. Well, thank you so much, Senator. I will say that, 
just going back to our conversation, one of the things you 
mentioned was that when you were hiring you found that there 
were more people with college degrees than needed, meaning that 
we need to make sure that those without college degrees have 
the skills needed for the jobs in their area.
    I agree with the importance of that point, and that's why I 
think we need to focus on, and we have in California--this is 
one of our successes, for sure--is looking at alternative 
degrees, looking at two-year colleges. We have a very robust 
community college system that we partner with a lot on the 
workforce side of things. We need to look at other kinds of 
credentials and certificates that both meet short term--the 
need to employ quickly, and the many desires and directions of 
job seekers.
    I think that's one area where I think we would have some 
common ground; and, if confirmed, I would be interested in 
working with you on this for the experiences in your state and 
meeting the needs of employers and of employees.
    I'll say another thing about growth of business in 
California. One of the things that I've seen in my work is that 
we have all kinds of businesses that both start there and come 
there. But one reason businesses come to California is because 
of the opportunity both to do well and to do good. Because of 
our training systems in place, especially for people who 
oftentimes would struggle to get a job at all--we're working 
with a business now who is interested in hiring, but also 
hiring formerly incarcerated individuals. So we have a training 
program for those individuals so that when they come out, they 
can actually get a job and get a second chance and find 
security and succeed.
    I think having training programs for the need but for 
communities who will benefit from them the most is really 
important, something that I would hope to bring to the job and 
something that I think not only California but that California 
has some models for.
    Senator Braun. I'm glad you brought that up because my 
experience back in Indiana was that we were wrestling with the 
Department of Education that was actually throughout the system 
stigmatizing that pathway of just better high school skills and 
the need to nurture as little education for those high-demand, 
high-wage jobs given the cost of how that has now eclipsed the 
cost of health care in terms of annual increases. So it's good 
that it seems in California, at least on workforce development, 
it sounds like something that you're doing well there.
    Let's get to another item of big versus small. When it 
comes to large business versus small business, and I know your 
roots are from the small business world, and mine as well, do 
you think there's a place, whether it be in California or at 
the Federal level, that you'd differentiate on how you treat, 
through labor practices, through rules and guidelines, to make 
it easier for small businesses, especially how they've been 
traumatized through the whole journey through COVID? Is there a 
way to do that and yet make sure that you have the practices 
that need to be universal there? Is there a way to 
differentiate? Because I think large business and small 
business have different characteristics.
    Ms. Su. Yes. I think that's very important, Senator. I know 
when I was growing up, my dad worked side by side with his 
employees. So as we talked about on the training side, I think 
there are some investments that for small businesses, it's 
harder for them to make. So are there ways that we can serve 
multiple employers by meeting an industry's needs.
    I think there's also the issue of outreach and education 
that is really important for all businesses but especially for 
small businesses who may not have the same level of a legal 
department or an H.R. department. So we have really, in my time 
in leadership, focused on outreach to small businesses.
    I know during the pandemic we have tried to make sure that 
supports and assistance to businesses were targeted to small 
businesses who also might not have the capital, for example, to 
last through the crisis that this pandemic has created.
    I do think that we have to look at the real needs on the 
ground. As you mentioned, through my personal history I have a 
real sensitivity to that, and I do think it's very important 
for us to be thoughtful in our approach.
    One other thing to your earlier point, I think you're 
absolutely right that on the workforce side of things there's 
such an opportunity for collaboration between the Department of 
Labor and the Department of Education, and if confirmed I would 
be very excited to work with my counterpart at the Department 
of Education so that our education and labor priorities from a 
workforce perspective are aligned.
    Senator Braun. Do I have any time left?
    The Chair. No, you're 2 minutes over.
    Senator Braun. Okay. It seemed that way. Thank you.
    The Chair. Thank you so much.
    Senator Scott.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Secretary Su, thank you for your willingness to serve in 
this very important role. I'm a person who comes from the small 
business sector as an employer. I remember growing up as a kid 
and earning less than the minimum wage and becoming an employer 
who understands the importance of paying more than the minimum 
wage.
    I look at the labor agenda from the President and yours in 
California, and it really is very concerning to me what the 
impact of the President's policies will be on small business 
owners, but more importantly small business employees and 
independent contractors.
    Having been an independent contractor myself for seven 
years of my professional life, I will say without any question 
some of the things I really enjoyed about being an independent 
contractor was the ability to have a flexible work schedule, to 
decide when I come in and when I go out. And one of the things 
that stands in the way of that is the ABC test in California. 
It seems like if you are a champion of small business and 
understand the importance of independent contractors, your 
position as a champion, not just an enforcer but a champion, a 
vocal champion of the ABC test, it is in stark contrast to what 
so many independent contractors wanted.
    If you apply that test nationally, as President Biden has 
said he is committed to doing, you would forcibly reclassify as 
many as half of all independent contractors, if not more, and 
jeopardize up to about 8.5 percent of our Nation's GDP. The ABC 
test would destroy many of these independent jobs and kill the 
flexibility and the autonomy for many of the rest of those 
jobs, in addition to hiking consumer prices, despite the fact 
that more than nine out of ten independent contractors say they 
actually like and prefer their status.
    Secretary Su, you've called California's ABC test law an 
important step to protect honest--I'm not sure what that 
means--businesses. Californians disagreed. They voted by a 
nearly 17-point margin last year to exclude base drivers from 
this new test, and lawmakers scrambled to include roughly 100 
carve-outs in the law.
    Have these developments caused you to rethink your 
outspoken support for the ABC test? And should we be concerned 
that you'll look to nationalize this very unpopular standard?
    Ms. Su. Senator Scott, I would say to your point about what 
did I mean by honest businesses, I'll talk about some of the 
businesses that I have actually met with, from barbers to 
janitorial contractors, for whom the misclassification in their 
industry creates an untenable situation for these small 
business owners to continue to compete because they are being 
undercut by another contractor who says, well, the janitors 
show up and they do the work at my direction, they clean these 
buildings overnight but they're required to provide all their 
own supplies, and I'm going to call them an independent 
contractor.
    I would also just note that I don't think that there is an 
inherent conflict between flexibility and worker protections. I 
think that there can be and often has been both, and we've 
certainly seen that through the pandemic. We've seen employers 
in large numbers move to more flexible work arrangements that, 
frankly, they didn't think possible. We've done that at the 
state level, so government, which is often slower to be 
flexible than the private sector, found that we could do that 
because we needed to do it.
    For me, what I'd be really interested in working with you 
on, if confirmed, is looking at how we think about flexibility 
innovation.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, ma'am, for your answer. I would 
certainly say government is slower at almost everything, by the 
way. I would agree with you there. I would also agree with you 
that the Federal employees did not face layoffs, whereas the 
private sector did, and one of the things that happens when we 
impose mandates on the private sector is that they lack the tax 
base to support their businesses. They actually have to run 
their businesses at a profit. So giving the employees of those 
businesses the type of flexibility that allows for them to pick 
and choose how they work, when the work is one of the reasons 
why nine out of ten of the independent contractors said, hey, 
wait, wait, wait, wait a second, I want to keep my status 
because it allows me to be autonomous. And having been that 
person, you can cherry-pick examples, but the truth of the 
matter is a simple truth, which is that if 90 percent of those 
folks in California disagree with your position, I can assure 
you that the Nation as a whole will see that ABC test as 
anathema to progress in our Nation as it relates to small 
businesses and, frankly, independent contractors, who want to 
divide their time any way they like.
    I see my time is already out, Madam Chair. I'm not sure if 
that 5-minute clock is really 5 minutes or if it's just 2 
minutes, but I wish we had more time. Hopefully we'll have a 
second round. Thank you so much, ma'am.
    The Chair. Thank you.
    Senator Tuberville.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Good morning.
    Ms. Su. Good morning.
    Senator Tuberville. You're almost done, Okay?
    I'm just going to go off the cuff here for a second. You're 
getting ready to tackle, if confirmed, one of the biggest jobs 
our Country is going to face, putting people back to work. 
While your new boss, the Secretary, is going to be running 
around the country taking pictures and signing autographs, 
you're going to be in charge of 15,000 people, making sure 
people have a job so they can eat and pay their rent for the 
first time.
    Organization is a key to success. You think you're ready 
for it?
    Ms. Su. I do, Senator. I would not have accepted the 
nomination if I did not think I was.
    Senator Tuberville. It's going to be hard. Each state is 
different, and you handled California, a huge state. Will you 
be able to handle the smaller states? Because you're going to 
have to make adjustments because of the size and the people and 
the ability to have people to work with in some of those 
smaller states because we're less funded.
    Ms. Su. Yes, Senator. In my other comments I talked about 
creating big tables where we invite and give everyone a chance 
to be heard. I really do believe in that philosophy in any 
role, as a manager, as a leader, as a government official. So I 
do believe that one of my strengths is listening and being 
willing and able to bring many people to a conversation. I do 
think that those are important traits in terms of understanding 
what I don't already know, and I know there's a lot in that 
area.
    Senator Tuberville. Would you promise, when confirmed and 
if confirmed, that you will work with workforce development 
across this country to get young kids ready to work? Most kids 
don't need to go to a four-year school. They need to go and 
learn how to use their hands, and we desperately need somebody 
in the Labor Department who will stress workforce development 
on kids who don't want to go to college but learn a skill, and 
I think that's going to be very important in the next 10 years 
after coming out of this pandemic.
    Ms. Su. I would absolutely do that, Senator, and look 
forward to working with you on it. It's certainly been part of 
my role in California, to work directly with the workforce 
system, including local workforce boards. I know from your 
state and others, as I mentioned earlier, there are innovations 
and effective programs in place that we should look to build on 
and expand and possibly model. States sharing stories would be 
really valuable.
    But absolutely, I think that everything that you've said 
there is important and would be a priority for me.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you very much.
    The Chair. Senator Burr.
    Senator Burr. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be brief.
    Secretary, the California legislature has just established 
a new program to provide $600 payments with state money to 
undocumented adults. My question is very simple: Do you think 
that money could be better spent on anti-fraud efforts that the 
unemployment insurance, as you have expressed it, needs?
    Ms. Su. I would say that the $600 program was meant, again, 
to meet the tremendous ongoing pandemic-induced needs of 
California families. I do not believe that the only or maybe 
even the best solution for the massive fraud issues that we've 
discussed here at some length is just monetary. I think that 
what we've seen--and I've said this already; I apologize for 
repeating myself--is the need to understand the full complexity 
of why the unemployment insurance system fell short of what we 
needed, why there was so much fraud. And, frankly, a lot of 
those changes have been made, Ranking Member Burr. I'm not 
going to say that----
    Senator Burr. I'm going to grant you that there was $20 
billion that you considered to be fraud that is non-
traditional. But $10 billion was what you called a system that 
was broken. My question is--and you didn't elect to fix it 
while you were there. You were in the middle of a pandemic. Now 
California, the Governor just announced he's gotten $10.3 
billion more in revenue since he projected in January. This is 
mid-March. In 60 days they found $10.3 billion worth of 
revenue, and the first thing that they do is pass legislation 
to put a $600 check in the hands of undocumented adults.
    I'm not debating whether that's worthwhile. I'm asking 
where the priority is in California were you still in charge. 
Would you be fixing the system you just said was broken and 
that lost $10 billion, not the $20 billion, in fraud?
    Ms. Su. Well, Senator, again to be clear, the $10 billion 
of confirmed fraud was overwhelmingly also in that PUA program, 
right? The vulnerabilities and the ways that criminals 
exploited that program is--we have to----
    Senator Burr. Should California fix their UI program?
    Ms. Su. Absolutely we should fix our UI program.
    Senator Burr. And should that be a priority from the 
standpoint of funding?
    Ms. Su. Absolutely it is a priority. And again, I'm 
grateful to the American Rescue Plan for having provided some 
resources for states. But I guess my point is that I think that 
the problems also require thoughtful coordination, not just a 
monetary investment. But of course it's a priority.
    Senator Burr. We provided that money, $1.9 trillion, based 
upon what Governors told us their revenue shortfalls were. Yet 
all of a sudden, California's got $10 billion in new revenue 
that they weren't projecting, $10.3, in 60 days. They're flush 
with cash, but it doesn't seem like they're directing it to 
fixing a problem. They're directing it to payouts to 
individuals. My only point is if it's a priority--if it's not a 
priority in California, how can I expect it to be a priority of 
the Department of Labor?
    I thank the Madam Chair.
    The Chair. Thank you, Senator Burr.
    Secretary Su, the long overdue national discussion of 
systemic racism, as well as the Me Too movement, has increased 
awareness of the rampant harassment and discrimination that 
many workers face on the job because of their gender, race, 
sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, or religion.
    I introduced the BE HEARD in the Workplace Act to address 
harassment, including sexual assault in the workplace, and I 
hope working with Members of this Committee on both sides of 
the aisle we can make some progress on that issue, because 
building an inclusive economy in the midst of a global pandemic 
means taking into account the needs of all workers and removing 
barriers that too many people hold back.
    As Deputy Secretary of Labor, I expect you would use the 
authority of the DOL to respond to the impact the pandemic has 
had on women and workers of color, and to deal with the 
longstanding barriers that create unacceptable inequities in 
the workplace. Can you give us some examples of how you have 
approached those issues during your time as Secretary of Labor 
for California?
    Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I agree wholeheartedly 
with your premise. We have certainly seen during the pandemic 
that essential workers went to the workplace, put themselves at 
risk, and probably in many ways women were disproportionately 
affected both in terms of the industries that were most needed 
on the front lines, care work, health care, and also in jobs 
that were lost, that were devastated by the pandemic, like 
hospitality and leisure and retail.
    I think that we need to make sure that the programs that we 
develop in order to build back better pay special attention to 
the many ways that the pandemic has been particularly harmful 
to communities that were already facing inequities before we 
came in.
    One of the areas of work that I have engaged in in 
California is on pay equity. Before the pandemic I co-chaired a 
task force on pay equity in which we were charged with 
enforcing California's law, or implementation of the law, and 
we spent a couple of years working at a table of cross-sectors, 
with employers and H.R. professionals, employees and unions, 
academics, businesses of various sizes, to look at the tools 
that would be needed by both employers--how to conduct a pay 
audit, how to understand whether you have pay inequity in the 
workplace--and for employees, everything from understanding 
what you make to we realized through research that women 
actually demand less at the outset of a job when asked how much 
they needed to be paid, so providing some education and 
outreach.
    Then the last thing I'll say about that is that I do think 
that for women--we've seen this in the pandemic, but it was 
true before too--the challenges extend beyond work to adjacent 
issues, like child care, transportation. These things are also 
very important. I think those require collaboration and 
coordination with other agencies. And if confirmed, I would, as 
I did in California, work with my counterparts in other 
agencies to address them.
    The Chair. Well, thank you very much.
    That will end our hearing, and I want to thank my fellow 
Committee Members for their participation in today's hearing.
    Secretary Su, thank you for taking the time to answer our 
questions and speak about the challenges facing working 
families across our Nation. I look forward to working with you 
to tackle those challenges as soon as you are confirmed.
    For any Senators who wish to ask additional questions of 
the nominee, questions for the record will be due by Wednesday, 
March 17th at 5 p.m.
    The hearing record will remain open for 10 days for Members 
who wish to submit additional materials for the record.
    It is my intention to schedule a vote in Committee on 
Secretary Su's nomination as quickly as possible so she can 
begin the important task of helping to lead the Department of 
Labor.
    The meeting is now adjourned.

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIALS

              statement from u.s. senator mazie k. hirono
     on the nomination of julie su to be deputy secretary of labor
    Thank you Chairman Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and Committee 
Members, I had planned to provide an introduction today to voice my 
strong support for an outstanding public servant and President Biden's 
nominee for Deputy Secretary of Labor, Julie Su, but I had to return to 
Hawaii for a family emergency. I appreciate my statement being entered 
into the record.

    The U.S. Department of Labor is an important Federal agency. But 
amidst a global pandemic that has left millions of Americans out of 
work, the Department's mission takes on outsized importance. The 
department needs leadership with deep experience, skill, and a track 
record of transforming government agencies to deliver on their mission, 
as well as an understanding of the unique challenges of this moment. As 
we are seeing with President Biden, leadership does make a difference 
and it is important that we support the president in putting together 
the team he needs at a critical time in our Nation's history.

    Julie Su is highly qualified and is a strong leader.

    As California's Secretary of Labor and Workforce Development, 
Secretary Su currently leads a state agency for the largest state in 
the country. When you add her experience as an attorney and a nonprofit 
executive, she brings a wide mix of management experience to the table. 
Secretary Su's work style is collaborative and fair. She creates a seat 
at the table for everyone--including workers, labor unions, employers, 
and the community. She listens first to understand all perspectives, 
including those that differ from her own. She builds diverse teams and 
then empowers them to do their best work. Perhaps Secretary Su's 
management and leadership style is best summed up in the words of her 
own staff at the agency she has led for more than seven years:

        ``We can all say that Ms. Su's leadership transformed the Labor 
        Commissioner's office into a greater force for the public good 
        than it ever was before. During Ms. Su's seven years as 
        California Labor Commissioner, she remade the agency in ways 
        that many would have thought impossible . . . She re-energized 
        staff at all levels and led numerous groundbreaking 
        initiatives, including the ``Wage Theft is a Crime'' campaign . 
        . . She increased efficiency throughout the division and broke 
        down departmental silos that had stifled effective 
        collaboration and caused redundancy. She was legendary for 
        having learned the names of every one of the more than 600 
        staff within the Labor Commissioner's office, from secretarial 
        support staff to investigators, deputies, and legal staff.''

    Beyond Secretary Su's management skills, she will also bring to the 
Department of Labor a deep and abiding dedication to public service 
that was forged during her childhood. She is the daughter of Chinese 
immigrants, and her immigrant background shaped Secretary Su personally 
and professionally. Her own experience has afforded her insight into 
how segments of our economy leave people behind or even exclude them 
from experiencing the benefits of economic growth and opportunities. 
Her professional career reflects this life lesson as she has 
established a long and distinguished record of fighting for worker 
rights and civil rights. From defending the rights of Thai garment 
workers to protecting low-wage workers against abuses, Secretary Su has 
worked tirelessly to help people and communities who might not 
otherwise have access to justice.

    This sense of fairness and the desire to fight injustice will be 
critical for the Department of Labor for the foreseeable future. We 
know the pandemic has disproportionately impacted women and minorities. 
Given her proven track record and commitment to worker and fair labor 
rights, I have every confidence that Secretary Su will protect all 
sectors of our workforce and will work to lift everyone from this 
pandemic.

    Moreover, her experience managing labor policy at the executive 
level for the State of the California over the last decade will enable 
Secretary Su to hit the ground running on day one of working for the 
Biden administration. In particular, through the COVID-19 pandemic, 
Secretary Su has dealt with the overwhelming demand for assistance from 
workers who are suffering or unemployed. She has helped her state 
combat the organized crime attacks and employment fraud that has 
affected all 50 states. And she has worked to address systemic 
shortcomings that bad actors have exploited during this pandemic. 
Despite these many challenges, Secretary Su has never lost sight of her 
ultimate goal and strove to provide millions of workers access to 
unemployment benefits and other assistance. In these economic times, 
Secretary Su's leadership skills and proven track record of experience 
and effectiveness are just what we need.

    Julie Su's nomination also proves something I believe deeply: That 
when you look for the most qualified person, you get diversity, and 
when you prioritize diversity, you get the most qualified people; 
people who reflect all of America and who are able to serve all of 
America. Secretary Su's nomination is supported by so many who see 
their stories--and the stories of the United States of America--
reflected in hers. Secretary Su will be an outstanding Deputy Secretary 
of Labor and I am proud to support her nomination.
                                 ______
                                 
                                 
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                                 
    [Whereupon, at 12:16 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                                   [all]