    [Senate Hearing 117-174]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 117-174

                        NOMINATION OF JULIE SU TO SERVE
                          AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                    OF THE

                        COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
                              LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                       ON

     EXAMINING THE NOMINATION OF JULIE A. SU, OF CALIFORNIA, TO BE DEPUTY
                               SECRETARY OF LABOR

                                   __________

                                 MARCH 16, 2021

                                   __________

     Printed for the use of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and
                                    Pensions

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                  __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    46-754 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                        PATTY MURRAY, Washington, Chair
    BERNIE SANDERS (I), Vermont          RICHARD BURR, North Carolina,
    ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania       Ranking Member
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             RAND PAUL, M.D., Kentucky
    CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
    TIM KAINE, Virginia                  BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana
    MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
    TINA SMITH, Minnesota                MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
    JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  ROGER MARSHALL, M.D., Kansas
    BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
    JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado          MITT ROMNEY, Utah
                                         TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama
                                         JERRY MORAN, Kansas

                         Evan T. Schatz, Staff Director
                   David P. Cleary, Republican Staff Director
                      John Righter, Deputy Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                   STATEMENTS

                            TUESDAY, MARCH 16, 2021

                                                                       Page

                               Committee Members

    Murray, Hon. Patty, Chair, Committee on Health, Education, Labor,
      and Pensions, Opening statement................................     1
    Burr, Hon. Richard, Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from the State
      of North Carolina, Opening statement...........................     3
    Padilla, Hon. Alex, a U.S. Senator from the State of California,
      Statement......................................................     6

                                   Witnesses

    Su, Julie, Sacramento, CA........................................     7
        Prepared statement...........................................     9

                              ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

    Statements, articles, publications, letters, etc.
    Hirono, Hon. Mazie:
        Prepared statement on the nomination of Julie Su to be Deputy
          Secretary of Labor.........................................    40
    Murray, Hon. Patty:
        44 letters in support of Secretary Su's nomination to be
          Deputy Secretary of Labor..................................    42

                        NOMINATION OF JULIE SU TO SERVE
                          AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR

                                  ----------

                            Tuesday, March 16, 2021

                                           U.S. Senate,
           Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in
    room 106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Patty Murray,
    Chair of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Murray [presiding], Casey, Baldwin,
    Murphy, Kaine, Hassan, Smith, Rosen, Hickenlooper, Burr,
    Collins, Cassidy, Murkowski, Braun, Marshall, Scott, and
    Tuberville.

                      OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MURRAY

        The Chair. Good morning. The Senate Health, Education,
    Labor, and Pensions Committee will please come to order.
        Today we are holding a hearing on the nomination of
    California Secretary of Labor Julie Su to serve as Deputy
    Secretary of Labor. Senator Burr and I will each have an
    opening statement, and then I will recognize Senator Padilla to
    introduce Secretary Su. After Secretary Su gives her testimony,
    Senators will have 5 minutes each for a round of questions. I
    am happy to stay for a second round if any Senator has any
    remaining questions.
        Before we begin, I do want to walk through the COVID-19
    safety protocols in place. We will follow the advice of the
    Attending Physician and the Sergeant at Arms in conducting this
    hearing. We are all grateful to everyone, including our clerks,
    who have worked so hard to get this set up and help everyone
    stay safe and healthy.
        Committee Members are seated at least six feet apart, and
    some Senators are participating by video conference. While we
    are unable to have the hearing fully open to the public or
    media for in-person attendance, live video is available on our
    Committee website at help.senate.gov.
        If you are in need of accommodations, including closed
    captioning, you can reach out to the Committee or the Office of
    Congressional Accessibility Services.
        We received Secretary Su's formal nomination on February
    13th; her Office of Government Ethics paperwork, including her
    public financial disclosures and ethics agreement, on February
    18th; and her Committee paperwork on March 2nd.
        Secretary Su, thank you for joining us today. I'm pleased
    to welcome your daughter, LiMei, who is here with you today.
    And I know your family, including your parents and your
    daughter, AnLing, are watching as well. They must be very
    proud.
        Our Country is not yet through the COVID-19 crisis, but
    with the passage of the American Rescue Plan and President
    Biden announcing he will direct all states, tribes, and
    territories to make all people 18 and over eligible to be
    vaccinated no later than May 1st, we're finally on the right
    track. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. But we have
    to make sure we do not run out of steam before we reach it.
        We are going to need a full team working together to make
    that happen, which is why it is so important we work to get
    qualified nominees like Julie Su quickly confirmed.
        President Biden has taken important, historic steps, as has
    Congress, but there is more work to be done to not only fully
    rescue America from this pandemic, but to recover from this
    crisis and rebuild a stronger and fairer economy.
        I'm incredibly glad we were able to extend the unemployment
    benefits millions of families need to help them get by in the
    American Rescue Plan, but we also need to increase wages. One
    in nine workers is making poverty-level wages, and some workers
    are still being paid discriminatory sub-minimum wages.
        I'm glad we were able to take steps that will cut child
    poverty in half, but we need to do more to help families get
    quality, affordable child care and provide national paid sick
    days and family and medical leave, especially since, in the
    midst of a pandemic, one in four workers do not have paid sick
    leave.
        I'm thrilled we were able to protect millions of workers
    and retirees from having the pensions they earned dramatically
    cut, but we need to help more people plan for retirement. One
    in four people have no retirement savings, and women are 80
    percent more likely to face poverty in retirement.
        In addition to the American Rescue Plan, there is more
    progress we are making that we must build on. President Biden
    has taken important steps toward protecting workers, but we
    know that work is not done yet, and even when it is, we will
    need to do more to ensure people are safe from workplace
    hazards, pandemics, harassment, and discrimination, something
    my BE HEARD in the Workplace Act works to address.
        President Biden has also moved to withdraw the previous
    administration's joint employer and independent contractor
    rules, which shielded the largest corporations from being held
    accountable for violations of workers' rights and significantly
    restricted workers' right to minimum wage and overtime.
        In addition to these much needed steps, the Senate needs to
    join the House in passing the PRO Act, which I introduced last
    month, to strengthen the right to join a union and collectively
    bargain.
        While we all know our economy can't work without women,
    it's also painfully clear it is not working for them. One in
    four women have considered down shifting their careers because
    of this pandemic. More than 2 million women left the workforce
    over the last year.
        Women of color face an even larger pay gap, higher rates of
    unemployment, and a steeper climb to recovery.
        We need to do so much more to ensure equity in our economy
    and address the sexism, racism, ableism, and bigotry that has
    hurt too many for so long.
        But, if we are going to build an economy that works for all
    working families, we need someone serving as Deputy Secretary
    of Labor who will fight for them, and that someone is Julie Su.
        Julie Su's experience leading one of the largest state
    labor departments in the Nation, her decades-long commitment to
    fighting for workers' rights, and her personal story as the
    multilingual daughter of Chinese immigrants, have given her the
    experience, background, and values to be a successful Deputy
    Secretary of Labor.
        As a labor lawyer, Julie Su fought to defend Thai garment
    workers who were trafficked into the United States and forced
    to work behind barbed wire and under armed guard, and she then
    pushed to change the law to ensure corporations are held
    responsible for working conditions in their supply chains.
        As California Labor Commissioner, Julie Su cracked down on
    wage theft and launched a multilingual campaign to help workers
    understand their rights and feel safe speaking up about
    employers stealing their wages.
        As California's Secretary of Labor, Julie Su has
    implemented increases to the state minimum wage, created good-
    paying, high-quality jobs, expanded access to benefits for gig
    workers and workers who are paid low wages, and protected
    essential workers who are bearing the brunt of this pandemic,
    including by establishing and enforcing mandatory emergency
    COVID workplace safety standards.
        In short, Secretary Su's record as a champion for workers
    is long and clear, and the need to confirm her is obvious and
    urgent.
        We need a fully staffed Department of Labor to protect
    workers and help us end this pandemic, to foster healthy
    communities, and to build a stronger, fairer economy.
        We need a Deputy Secretary of Labor like Julie Su who is
    committed to ensuring workers have a fair and just workplace, a
    livable wage, a secure retirement, safe working conditions,
    access to accommodations, the right to join together and
    collectively bargain, and are treated with dignity and respect.
        I urge my colleagues to work with me on a bipartisan basis
    to confirm her without delay.
        Finally, I seek unanimous consent to put in the record 44
    letters in support of Secretary Su's nomination, from more than
    650 labor unions, former colleagues, labor leaders, and more.
        So ordered.
        [The information referred to can be found on page 42.]
        The Chair. With that, I will recognize Ranking Member Burr
    for his opening remarks.

                       OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BURR

        Senator Burr. Good morning and thank you, Chair Murray.
    Thank you for scheduling this hearing to consider the
    nomination of Secretary Julie Su for Deputy Secretary of Labor.
        Welcome, Secretary Su. I congratulate you on your
    nomination, and I know your family is proud of what you've
    accomplished.
        Article 2, Section 2 of the United States Constitution
    gives the Senate the power of advice and consent to approve or
    reject nominations for executive offices made by the President.
    The Senate is not a rubber stamp but an equal partner in
    shaping the staff of the executive branch.
        It's an important responsibility, and I do take it
    personally; I do not take it lightly. I have supported nominees
    of presidents of both parties even when I didn't agree with the
    president or the nominee if I thought that the nominee was
    qualified for the job and deserving of my support.
        In fact, a month ago I supported the nomination of Marty
    Walsh to be Secretary of Labor. I said then that Mayor Walsh
    has the background, the skills, and the awareness of the need
    for balance in conversations between labor and management.
        Mayor Walsh emphasized during his nomination hearing that
    he wanted to work with us collaboratively to help the American
    workers improve and expand opportunities. Mayor Walsh committed
    to making sure commerce and labor work cooperatively. So I'm
    pleased to be able to support his nomination and provide my
    consent.
        California is not a model to emulate for the rest of the
    country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,
    California's unemployment stands at 9 percent, the second
    highest in the country, and has had one of the worst increases
    in unemployment over the last year of COVID.
        The state has imposed some of the most onerous restrictions
    on businesses and individuals, and has been one of the slowest
    to recover from the pandemic.
        The controversial AB 5 bill would have decimated many of
    the companies that have helped to give the state its reputation
    of innovation.
        For example, Uber and Lyft were both born in California and
    have revolutionized how people around the world get from place
    to place. Both companies would have had to cease operations in
    the very state in which they're headquartered if the AB 5 bill
    would have been implemented as passed.
        The law was so radical that the same California voters who
    overwhelmingly supported President Biden overturned the core of
    AB 5 by a whopping 17 percent.
        California is also known for high taxes, and that applies
    both to individuals as well as businesses, and those rates
    aren't likely to go down anytime soon considering the
    staggering amount of state liabilities on the state's balance
    sheet. The Tax Foundation ranked California 49th out of 50
    states in terms of business climate. The classic idea of ``if
    you want less of something, make it more expensive'' applies to
    employing people in California.
        The Mercatus Center has also found that California has the
    most state regulatory restrictions in the country, nearly 30
    percent more than the state with the second most restrictions.
    The tax and regulatory burden weigh heavily on employers, and
    it's another reason why we are seeing so many businesses flee
    California in favor of other states with more reasonable
    policies.
        Maybe that explains why so many companies are moving from
    California and bringing their jobs to North Carolina, Texas,
    and elsewhere. I see a lot of moving trucks with California
    plates in Charlotte and Raleigh, North Carolina, and as long as
    they don't bring their politics, we're happy to welcome them
    with open arms.
        Turning to our nominee, Madam Secretary, you have a few
    challenges in gaining the support for your nomination.
        First, some of your friends have made it clear that they
    think you will be a shadow Secretary, when the role of Deputy
    Secretary is really that of Chief Operating Officer. Your
    friends may have thought they were helping you, but some of
    what they have said raises some real questions.
        Secretary Su, we discussed this yesterday in my office, so
    I hope you can convince the Committee that you understand the
    job you've been nominated for.
        I also hope you can demonstrate that you aren't aiming to
    drag Mayor Walsh away from what I think is a sensible agenda he
    committed to pursuing when he sat right where you sit today in
    his confirmation hearing.
        Second, and more importantly, I'm even more concerned about
    the failures and fraud in California's unemployment insurance.
    California suffered some of the largest fraud in our Nation's
    history during the pandemic. Over $11 billion, and perhaps as
    high as $30 billion, in fraud occurred in California's
    unemployment system. Even death row inmates received
    unemployment checks.
        I'm sure there is a reasonable debate to be had about the
    death penalty, but I can't imagine one that involves paying
    people on death row for being unemployed.
        What's worse about the fraud committed on California and
    the U.S. taxpayer is that it was entirely preventable.
        It's my understanding that an auditor made a series of
    recommendations just as you took office, specifically
    recommending that California exclude sensitive information,
    including Social Security numbers, from its identification
    system. But nothing changed.
        In fact, when the fraud was ramping up and billions being
    stolen from taxpayers, California actually made things worse.
    You ordered the agency to eliminate some important safeguards
    to speed up payments, which led to even more fraud.
        Additionally, the people waited months for their benefits,
    and a state audit showed that call centers only answered 1
    percent of their calls.
        These are operational failures of extreme proportion.
        What's worse is that California has received hundreds of
    millions a year, every year, over the past decade in Federal
    funds for administration of their unemployment systems, but no
    changes or improvements to those systems were made.
        It's not Washington's fault that the California system
    still uses COBOL. You'd think with all of those tech companies
    still in Silicon Valley, that one or two of them would have
    been able to provide new technology and new systems.
        As we discussed yesterday, it is true that all states
    struggled, but California's struggles swamp everyone else, and
    none of their Secretaries of Labor are here today seeking a
    promotion.
        While you may not personally be responsible for every case
    of fraud that happened, the fraud did happen under your watch.
    So please help this Committee understand why that is an
    experience the Senate should reward with a promotion.
        I'll keep an open mind as we go through this hearing, and I
    appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues with me and
    with the Committee today.
        I thank the Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member Burr.
        Now I will turn it over to Senator Padilla--welcome to our
    Committee--to introduce Secretary Su.

                      STATEMENT OF SENATOR PADILLA

        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Chair Murray and Ranking Member
    Burr, for once again inviting me to address the HELP Committee
    to introduce a fellow Californian. I'm honored to introduce
    Julie Su to be Deputy Secretary of the Department of Labor, and
    I'm confident that her experience as Secretary for the
    California Labor and Workforce Development Agency will enable
    her to immediately hit the ground running at the Federal level.
        As I believe we all agree, our Nation's workers and
    businesses are struggling to survive the economic impacts of
    the COVID-19 pandemic, and it's critical that we have
    experienced leadership in place. There is simply no better
    preparation for the challenges that we're facing than serving
    at the state level in the State of California, a state that
    represents the fifth largest economy in the world, the largest
    economy of any state in the Nation, and that reflects the local
    variations in business conditions that we see across the
    country.
        As you will hear from her, Julie is the proud daughter of
    immigrants. Her parents came from China in search of a better
    life for their family, just like my parents did. Her parents
    worked at minimum wage jobs for decades. Julie understands how
    hard families in America are working right now just to make
    ends meet.
        Her upbringing engrained in her how to run a small
    business. She watched her parents run a dry cleaning and
    laundromat business, and later a pizza restaurant. She learned
    firsthand what goes into making businesses succeed, and she
    knows how to help them and how to help workers.
        As a seasoned lawyer fluent in Mandarin, and Spanish as
    well, Julie spent two decades representing workers, including
    immigrant workers and workers of color. She became deeply
    familiar with their struggles, the struggles of garment
    workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers, nurses, restaurant and
    retail workers, workers in all the industries that have been
    severely impacted by the pandemic and are critical to our
    Nation's economic recovery.
        As California Labor Commissioner from 2011 to 2018, Julie
    launched the first Wage Theft is a Crime campaign to help low-
    wage workers and employers understand their rights. And most
    recently, as Secretary of the California Labor and Workforce
    Development Agency, Julie has overseen seven major departments,
    boards, and panels that improve access to training, promote
    quality jobs, eliminate barriers to employment, create
    innovative career pathways, and level the playing field for
    employers large and small.
        Julie knows that collaboration with employers and the
    business community is key to success, and that's why we see so
    many small business groups and Chambers of Commerce supportive
    of her nomination.
        Now, I know that California has struggled with fraud in its
    unemployment system in recent months, perpetuated by the same
    organized criminals that have targeted several states around
    the country. That's why Julie's experience is even more helpful
    and needed by the Federal Government as the Federal Government
    will work with states to crack down on unemployment fraud
    nationwide.
        I know that Julie will take every opportunity to do right
    by both our Nation's workers and employers, to think boldly and
    to expand opportunities to achieve the American Dream, just as
    her parents did.
        Julie Su is a proven leader who is uniquely qualified to
    take on the challenges of the Department at this moment. I
    believe it's critical that this Committee give her the fair and
    respectful consideration that she has earned, and I urge the
    Committee to support her nomination.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you very much, Senator Padilla.
        Senator Hirono was planning to be here with us today to
    help introduce Secretary Su. Unfortunately, she needed to fly
    home to Hawaii for a personal emergency. But she has written a
    statement of support. I ask unanimous consent to enter it in
    the record.
        So ordered.
        [The information referred to can be found on page 40.]
        The Chair. Secretary Su, you may now begin your testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF JULIE SU, SACRAMENTO, CA

        Ms. Su. Madam Chair Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and
    Members of the Committee, I am honored to appear before you
    today and am grateful for the time that you took to meet with
    me prior to this hearing. I have enjoyed our discussions about
    the Department of Labor and its critical role in meeting the
    challenges of our time. I have appreciated the chance to share
    with you my vision for the Deputy Secretary of Labor's role.
        I want to start by thanking President Biden for this
    incredible opportunity. I also want to thank my parents, who
    are watching from California along with my daughter AnLing, a
    high school senior who will attend Amherst College in the fall
    and play on the basketball team.
        My older daughter, LiMei, is with me today. She is a
    student at Yale, and I'm so grateful that she could be here in
    person. My children and I are proud products of the American
    Dream.
        I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants. My mom immigrated
    to the United States on a 30-day voyage on a cargo ship because
    she could not afford a passenger ticket. Both of my parents
    came to America for opportunity, and they found it in Provo,
    Utah, where they studied; in Madison, Wisconsin, where my
    sister Shirley and I were born; and ultimately in the home they
    built in search of warmer weather in Southern California.
        My parents worked minimum wage jobs while going to school
    and instilled in me a deep appreciation for the struggles and
    pride in work. My mom eventually got a job working at Los
    Angeles County, starting as an office clerk, and retired after
    27 years. That job gave our family financial security and
    health insurance. It also gave my mom stable, predictable hours
    and, now that she's retired, a pension. I know well what a good
    union job does for a family because I am a direct beneficiary.
        While I was growing up, as Senator Padilla mentioned, my
    family also owned a dry cleaning and laundromat business, and
    later a pizza restaurant. I remember for years my dad would go
    to his day job and then go directly to our business, returning
    home after 10 p.m., often with a pizza that a customer had
    rejected for my sister and me to pack in our school lunches the
    next day. I have a first-hand appreciation for small
    businesses, who are the engines of our economy.
        I also grew up translating for my parents, a common
    experience in immigrant families. After college I went to law
    school and became the first lawyer in my family. My experience
    as a translator at home shaped my commitment to making the law
    understandable and meaningful to individuals and communities
    too often left out of our economy. I spent nearly two decades
    representing workers, including immigrant workers and workers
    of color--garment workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers,
    nurses, restaurant and retail workers--many of the same workers
    who have been hardest hit by the COVID pandemic. What I learned
    from these courageous individuals is that too many people still
    work full-time year-round and live in poverty. Too many are
    denied a just day's pay for a hard day's work. As we've seen
    during the pandemic, too many workers have to choose between
    their safety and their livelihoods.
        At the same time, I learned that working people, when given
    a chance to organize, to be heard, not only make things better
    for themselves but bring the hope of such opportunity to those
    around them. If confirmed, I will bring these lessons and
    experiences to my role as we collectively continue to navigate
    these trying times.
        For the past 10 years I have served the people of
    California to build a fair and inclusive economy that values
    workers and supports businesses, all of whom want a fair shot
    at opportunity and security. I have prioritized innovative
    partnerships with employers, ensured robust enforcement of
    labor laws, and worked to combat wage theft. During my time
    leading and managing labor department programs in California,
    the world's fifth largest economy, I have seen firsthand three
    things that I want to share today.
        One, with a clear vision, bold ideas, and commitment to
    making government work, rejecting the idea that we have to do
    it this way because it's always been done this way, for
    example, we can transform what we do and how we do it.
        Two, government has a meaningful role to play in providing
    support to employers who play by the rules. One of these roles
    is investments in workforce programs to provide training to
    meet the need for skilled workers and give more workers access
    to quality jobs. So much of what government can do is good for
    both employers and employees. I have been a leader dedicated to
    finding and expanding those areas of common ground.
        Three, the lowest-paid workers, who often work crushing
    hours under brutal conditions, deserve their government's
    support and respect. It is possible that we cannot only ensure
    that their earned wages make it into their pockets, we can also
    build their faith in the very idea of government itself.
        These lessons drive my desire to serve in the Federal
    Government. I am grateful for this chance to work to preserve
    and expand the American Dream for all Americans. And, if
    confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of Labor, I look forward to
    my partnership with you in the years to come. I look forward to
    your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Su follows:]
                         prepared statement of julie su
        Chair Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and Members of the Committee, I
    am honored to appear before you today and am grateful for the time you
    made to meet with me prior to this hearing. I have enjoyed our
    discussions about the Department of Labor and its critical role in
    meeting the challenges of our time. I have appreciated the chance to
    share my vision with you for the Deputy Secretary position.

        I want to start by also thanking President Biden for this
    incredible opportunity. I also want to thank my parents, who are
    watching today from California along with my daughter AnLing, a high
    school senior who will attend Amherst College in the fall and play on
    the basketball team. I'm also fortunate to have my older daughter,
    LiMei, with me today. She is a student at Yale, and I'm so grateful she
    could join me in person. My children and I are proud to be products of
    the American Dream.

        I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants. My mom came to the United
    States on a 30-day voyage on a cargo ship because she couldn't afford a
    passenger ticket. Both of my parents came to America for opportunity,
    and they found it in Provo, Utah, where they studied; Madison,
    Wisconsin, where my sister and I were born; and ultimately in the home
    they built in search of warmer weather in Southern California.

        My parents worked minimum wage jobs while going to school and
    instilled in me a deep appreciation for the struggles and pride in
    work. My mom eventually got a job working at Los Angeles County,
    starting as an office clerk, and retired after 27 years. That job gave
    our family financial security and health insurance, and also gave my
    mom stable, predictable hours and, now that she's retired, a pension. I
    know well what a good union job does for a family because I am a direct
    beneficiary.

        While I was growing up, my family also owned a dry cleaning and
    laundromat business and then a pizza restaurant. I remember for years
    my dad would work his day job and then go directly to our business,
    returning home after 10 pm often with a pizza that a customer had
    rejected for my sister and I to pack in our school lunches the next
    day. I have a first-hand appreciation for small business owners, who
    are the engines of our economy.

        I also grew up translating for my parents, a common experience in
    immigrant families. After college, I went to law school and became the
    first lawyer in my family. My experience as a translator at home shaped
    my commitment to making the law understandable and meaningful to
    individuals and communities too often left out of our economy. I spent
    nearly two decades representing workers, including immigrant workers
    and workers of color--garment workers, hotel housekeepers, caregivers,
    nurses, restaurant and retail workers--many of the same workers who
    have been hardest hit by the COVID pandemic. What I learned from these
    courageous individuals is that too many people still work full-time
    year-round and live in poverty. Too many are denied a just day's pay
    for a hard day's work. As we've seen during the pandemic, too many
    workers have to choose between their safety and their livelihoods. At
    the same time, I learned that working people, when given a chance to
    organize, to be heard, not only make things better for themselves but
    bring the hope of such opportunity to those around them. If confirmed,
    I will bring these lessons and experiences to my role as we
    collectively continue to navigate these trying times.

        For the last 10 years, I have served the people of California to
    build a fair and inclusive economy that values workers and supports
    businesses, all of whom want a fair shot at opportunity and security. I
    have prioritized innovative partnerships with employers, ensured robust
    enforcement of labor laws, and worked to combat wage theft. During my
    time leading and managing labor department programs in California, the
    world's fifth largest economy, I saw firsthand that:

              With a clear vision, bold ideas, and commitment to
            making government work--rejecting the idea that it has to be
            this way because we've always done it that way, for example--we
            could transform what we do and how we do it.

              Government has a meaningful role to play in providing
            support to employers who play by the rules. One of these roles
            is investments in workforce programs to provide training to
            meet the need for skilled workers and give more workers access
            to quality jobs. So much of what government can do is good for
            both employers and employees. I have been a leader dedicated to
            finding and expanding those areas of common ground.

              The lowest-paid workers, who often work crushing
            hours under brutal conditions, deserve their government's
            effort and respect. It is possible that we not only can ensure
            their earned wages make it into their pockets, we can also
            build their faith in the very idea of government itself.

        These lessons drive my desire to serve in the Federal Government. I
    am grateful for this chance to work to preserve and expand the American
    dream for all Americans, and, if confirmed as the Deputy Secretary of
    Labor, I look forward to my partnership with you in the years ahead. I
    look forward to your questions.
                                     ______

        The Chair. Thank you very much, Secretary Su.
        We will now begin our round of 5-minute questions. I ask my
    colleagues to please keep track of your clock and stay within
    those 5 minutes. I am happy to stay if anyone has additional
    questions for a second round.
        Secretary Su, as we continue to grapple with the health and
    economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, I'm optimistic about
    the rising rates of vaccinations and the drop in cases and
    deaths in recent weeks, but we have a long road of economic
    recovery ahead. Our nation's essential workers have spent the
    last year responding on the front lines, but many lack paid
    sick days, fair wages, and proper health and safety
    protections. Millions of workers remain unemployed.
        In late 2020, some estimates showed nearly a quarter of
    small businesses remained closed, with the most severe losses
    among businesses owned by women, people of color, and
    immigrants.
        Secretary Su, you have led California's labor agency's
    response to the pandemic, overseeing implementation of state
    and Federal rules, defending the rights of workers, and
    ensuring health and safety on the job. Tell us what you have
    learned from your experience in leading the response of the
    Nation's largest state to the COVID pandemic, and how will your
    state leadership experience inform how you approach the Federal
    COVID response from the Department of Labor?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Madam Chair Murray. Thank you
    for the question, and thank you for your ongoing leadership,
    especially when it comes to women in the workplace.
        Every worker I have ever represented, assisted, or worked
    with taught me something different. But the one thing they all
    taught me is that what we are able to do when we work together
    is far more than what we can do when we work alone. And that
    spirit of collaboration, of listening, the idea that we can
    accomplish big things if we create big tables and create a seat
    for everyone to be heard, is the way that I would approach the
    job of Deputy Secretary of Labor.
        In my career, and especially over this last year during the
    pandemic, I have experienced working across many interests. I
    know that in government we need to work across all agencies to
    meet the challenges our Country faces. It is how we have
    approached COVID in the pandemic, and I welcome this approach.
        I know that all levels of government--Federal, state, and
    local--have to work together. At the end of the day, people
    don't care how we draw our lines, they just want to know if
    we've made their lives better.
        I understand how to support career staff in government
    agencies to enable them to meet the mission of their
    departments. I believe that organizations, including
    government, have to invest in making things work. Last week,
    the President spoke directly to the American people about the
    pain that this pandemic has wrought. He talked about that
    longest walk that any parent has to make to their children's
    bedroom to tell them I've lost my job. And this past year, too
    many Americans have had to do that.
        The unemployment insurance system is supposed to be a
    safety net for those times. In California, over the course of
    the pandemic, UI claims jumped dramatically. From the last week
    in February to just two weeks later, they jumped 1,400 percent.
    The number of claims by mid-April was more than the total
    number of claims filed in all of 2019.
        This meant that, like just about every other state,
    California's unemployment insurance system was overwhelmed. And
    each claim represented somebody who suddenly had the ground
    fall out from under them. I personally heard from thousands of
    these individuals, people who one day had a job and the next
    day didn't know how they were going to pay rent, were going to
    food banks, living in their cars, and worried about whether
    they would be able to buy life-saving medications. So the
    magnitude of the suffering cannot be overstated.
        California had one in five claims in the entire nation, and
    we were working on a system built on outdated technology. I
    identified this as a priority when I came in during 2019. But,
    frankly, system upgrades are not quick endeavors. So when the
    pandemic hit, the arcane technology made the system both
    fragile and inflexible. Again, this didn't just happen in
    California, but it proves something that I have brought to my
    decades of work improving systems and organizations, that we
    have to invest in making things work in good times so that they
    can meet our needs in bad.
        This is especially true in unemployment insurance, because
    it is a system that is most needed in the worst of times, as
    we've seen in this last year. We took steps in California to
    process the historic numbers of claims. We did ramp up. We got
    to the point where we were paying over a billion dollars a week
    in benefits to individuals who needed it, money that was a
    lifeline to individuals, and also put money back into the
    economy because recipients of these benefits paid them directly
    for the basic necessities--groceries, rent, and the like.
        According to the Century Foundation, which evaluates UI
    performance across the country, in November California was
    second. Colorado was first, but California was second in the
    percentage of initial claims paid. This means that despite the
    large numbers and despite the failing technology, the steps we
    took helped to deliver.
        But I mention the people that I heard from because this
    should never happen, that the safety nets in place do not work
    and are not strong enough. So we have to update our systems. We
    have to get payments out when we stop fraud. And we need a
    Department of Labor that works with the states, that
    understands the real-world challenges and can set a big table
    to approach these issues with a national approach because they
    are a national problem. And if confirmed, I would be really
    proud to work with all of you on these problems.
        The Chair. Thank you very much for that response.
        Senator Burr.
        Senator Burr. Thank you, Senator Murray.
        Again, welcome, Secretary Su.
        Chris Lu and Patrick Pacella, two prior Deputy Labor
    Secretaries, have said that the role of Deputy Labor Secretary
    is one of chief operating officer. However, in an interview
    with Vox, V-O-X, Congresswoman Judy Chu expressed that before
    you agreed to take on the deputy role, you had a talk with
    Marty Walsh to get assurances that you would have the ability
    to concentrate on your areas of expertise.
        These are yes or no answers.
        Do you see the role as Deputy Secretary of Labor as the
    chief operating officer, yes or no?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Burr. Thank you
    so much for the time you took to meet with me. I appreciated
    the chance to talk about this then, too. I absolutely see the
    role of Deputy Secretary of Labor as the chief operating
    officer of the Department.
        Senator Burr. Will your priority be managing the Department
    of Labor's 15,000-plus employees and 10 regions, yes or no?
        Ms. Su. My priority will be to best serve hopefully soon-
    to-be Labor Secretary Walsh and the Administration on making
    sure that the Department of Labor delivers on its mission, and
    absolutely a key part of that priority is what you just
    mentioned in terms of supervising, managing, making sure the
    Department works well and that the staff have what they need in
    order to perform their jobs at the highest level.
        Senator Burr. The buck stops with you as Labor Secretary in
    California. California has provided at least $10.4 billion, and
    up to $31 billion, in fraudulent unemployment insurance
    payments under your leadership.
        Again, these are yes or no answers.
        Shortly after you were appointed Secretary, a state auditor
    urged the Employment Development Department to address its
    mailing system after millions of Social Security numbers were
    included in a mailing sent to wrong addresses. Did you
    implement the recommendations made by the auditor, yes or no?
        Ms. Su. Ranking Member Burr, thank you again. There are a
    lot of issues in the unemployment insurance--what has happened
    over the last year. That audit happened well before the
    pandemic; and, yes, the recommendations of that audit have been
    implemented.
        Senator Burr. In August 2020 the California State Auditor's
    Office identified as a high-risk issue the Employment
    Development Department's management of Federal funding in
    response to COVID-19, and in September 2020 California's state
    auditor, Elaine Howell, was directed by the California Joint
    Legislative Audit Committee to conduct an emergency audit of
    EDD. Is that, in fact, true? Yes or no?
        Ms. Su. Yes. There were a couple of audits conducted in
    relation to the pandemic. One was about fraud, and the other
    was on operations.
        Senator Burr. According to state auditor Howell, you
    directed the Employment Development Department to pay certain
    claimants UI benefits without making key eligibility
    determinations and to temporarily stop collecting bi-weekly
    eligibility certifications. Knowing the unemployment insurance
    system was at risk of fraud, you chose to remove the checks and
    balances; yes or no?
        Ms. Su. Thank you, Ranking Member Burr. I think what's
    important here is I mentioned there were two different audits.
    The pandemic-related fraud that has been perpetrated across the
    country is really a nationwide, insidious criminal scheme. That
    is a different audit and a different situation. I'm happy to
    talk about that, as well. But then the audit about operations
    which mentioned, yes, that I took steps consistent with what
    was then the Department of Labor's guidance in order to try to
    make sure that benefits continued to get out to Californians
    when we saw that there were threats to the stability and the
    security of our system. We did not waive any fraud checks at
    the time. There was no finding that decision led to the massive
    fraud that----
        Senator Burr. You didn't waive any certifications?
        Ms. Su. We did not waive certifications. What we did was,
    because we saw that individuals were coming into the system to
    certify every 2 weeks and this was threatening the stability of
    the system itself, what we said was that there was a period of
    time in which people, especially because of the pandemic, it
    was very unlikely that people were going back to work, that if
    they went back to work and were no longer eligible, they had to
    come and inform us of that separately but not through the
    system that was supporting the entire UI----
        Senator Burr. Let me get my last question in, then, if I
    can, Secretary. As Deputy Secretary of Labor, your job will be
    to prevent fraud and abuse of taxpayer spending. Will you
    prioritize expedience over protecting against fraud and
    taxpayer waste, yes or no?
        Ms. Su. The UI system is a constant--it's a dual effort
    both to get payments out to people who need them, especially in
    the most desperate of times, and to stop the fraud. I will
    certainly prioritize the continued fight against fraud. The
    President called our Nation's battle against COVID the need to
    be on a war footing. I would say that the battle against the
    criminal enterprises that have relentlessly attacked our
    pandemic-related benefits system is one front in that fight.
    And in California, we have been on those front lines.
        When we saw the initial spike in claims on the pandemic
    unemployment assistance, we stopped the automatic back-dating
    of claims. After we did, the Department of Labor instructed all
    states to do it. It shut down a number of the fraudulent claims
    that came through. We have also adopted technology--I know we
    talked about this yesterday. We were one of the first five
    states to do so. This is an effort to stop the identity theft
    fraud, which was a big part of the fraud that, again, cost--
    that hit every state and that the Department of Labor estimates
    is about 10 percent of all of the pandemic unemployment
    system's claims. We put that in place. Now over 20 states have
    also done that.
        I would take the experience that we had in California to
    stop fraud, to shut the front door to fraud, and to send a
    strong message that our systems are secure, to make sure that
    we can--that the Department of Labor supports the states in
    this effort rather than leaving states to fend for themselves
    as they are attacked one by one.
        Senator Burr. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Casey.
        Senator Casey. Secretary Su, thank you for putting yourself
    forward for this position. We're grateful to have this
    opportunity to ask some questions. And I wanted to first make
    just a brief comment on your nomination from a personal
    perspective. Your family story and your story is a great
    American story of success and hard work, and we're grateful
    that you're able to now have an opportunity to serve at the
    Federal level, and we appreciate the work that you've done in
    the State of California.
        I wanted to start with a question about Americans with
    disabilities. I know that we talked about this. I spoke to
    Mayor Walsh about this as well, about expanding employment
    opportunities for people with disabilities.
        We've made a lot of advances, as we know, in the last
    couple of decades in areas like assistive technology to help
    folks with disabilities. Job coaching is another where that has
    advanced. There are other supports that enable people with
    disabilities to succeed in the workplace, and quality
    employment opportunities for people with disabilities at the
    same time continue to be far too limited. So even though we've
    made some advancements, we still have a long way to go to
    provide those quality employment opportunities.
        We know that thousands of individuals with disabilities
    also continue to be paid a sub-minimum wage under Section 14(c)
    of the Fair Labor Standards Act, which I think is wrong.
        My first question, Secretary Su, is will you commit to
    working with me and other Members of the House and the Senate
    to create more and better employment opportunities for people
    with disabilities and to expand competitive, integrated
    employment opportunities?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator Casey. And, yes,
    absolutely I would commit to working with you on that issue. I
    know that this Administration shares your concern about the
    sub-minimum wage. We believe that is a matter of equity and
    fairness, and certainly as we recover from this pandemic we
    have to make sure that we are creating as many employment
    opportunities, particularly for those who face additional
    barriers to employment, as we can to ensure the strongest
    recovery we can.
        Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
        I wanted to ask a question about the agency itself. As you
    know from your work in state government, and I had experience
    in state government as well, sometimes coming into a department
    and facing challenges that confront that agency becomes fairly
    common. I know that there are some concerns about what has
    transpired the last couple of years, including issues like
    staffing vacancies in critical parts of the Department. So you
    have some experience coming into an agency in state government
    that had some challenges. Can you talk about your experiences,
    then, in the context of taking over an agency at the state
    level and gaining the buy-in of new employees and the
    cooperation to achieve a mission and how that would prepare you
    to assume the role as Deputy Secretary?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator Casey. I really enjoyed
    our conversation about this particular point and the shared
    experiences we've had in managing government agencies.
        I take great pride in the investments that I have made in
    my time in leadership in the staff of the agencies that I've
    been a part of, and I think this goes back to Ranking Member
    Burr's initial question, too. I think one of the things I'm
    most excited about, if confirmed, is the opportunity to work
    directly with the career staff at the Department of Labor who I
    understand have felt somewhat marginalized over the last few
    years and who I think would be anxious and excited to work
    along with Mayor Walsh and hopefully me if I'm confirmed to
    really restore a sense of mission at the Department of Labor.
        I think it's really important to invest in staff. I always
    tell the staff I work with that I've spent my career fighting
    for working people. That includes my own staff. So really
    looking at the needs of our employees, the need for training,
    the need for clear direction, the opportunity to create
    creative teams in order to tackle different problems, the idea
    of setting clear vision and then allowing people to innovate
    and to make decisions in fulfillment of the Department's
    vision, those are all areas of work that I both have experience
    in and would be very, very excited to bring to the Department.
        Senator Casey. Thank you, Secretary Su.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Casey.
        I'll turn to Senator Collins.
        Senator Collins. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Secretary Su, welcome. First let me say that I believe that
    every Member of this panel would agree with you that
    unemployment insurance is absolutely critical to individuals
    who have lost jobs through no fault of their own. However,
    there can be no excuse for the kind of rampant fraud that has
    been so prevalent in California.
        Now, I recognize that there has been UI fraud across the
    country, including in the State of Maine. But the sheer scale
    and scope of the fraud in California not only dwarfs that of
    every other state, to be at least $11.4 billion in fraud, but
    also seems to be directly related to directives that you
    issued. And these fraudulent payments are incredible: a $21,000
    payment to our colleague, Senator Diane Feinstein; $800 million
    worth of payments that went to prison inmates; 1,700 claims
    from a single address, yet they were paid.
        You gave a confusing answer, in my judgment, to Senator
    Burr about the directives that you issued. So I pulled up a
    press release that your department issued, and it says very
    clearly that you sent a memorandum to the Employment Department
    development director directing that department to temporarily
    suspend unemployment eligibility certifications. So, in other
    words, they're paying UI benefits before determining if the
    applicants are eligible. You also directed the agency to
    temporarily stop collecting eligibility certifications from
    claimants.
        Now, the U.S. Department of Labor did not waive those
    requirements, and a California state audit found that your
    directives jeopardized the integrity of the system. So do you
    disagree with the state auditor and with the Federal
    requirements? Why did you take those actions? Why did you
    jeopardize the integrity of the system?
        Ms. Su. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate in the hearing for
    Mayor Walsh you really laid out what was sort of the perfect
    storm in unemployment insurance benefits, the massive spike in
    claims on the heels of really record low levels of unemployment
    when the pandemic unemployment insurance funding was at a 50-
    year low nationwide, along with technological challenges or
    failure to invest in technology. And layer on top of all of
    that, the fraud really created, again, like a perfect storm of
    challenges.
        First to your point about California. It's true, California
    has received a lot of attention because we are a very large
    state. As I said, California has processed one in five
    unemployment insurance claims in the entire country, more than
    Texas and New York combined, and we've also been very
    transparent about our challenges.
        I should note that fraud in the unemployment insurance
    system itself--the system that has to do with the eligibility
    requirements that you're talking about in California has been,
    even in the pandemic, in the last year, about 5 percent, which
    is comparable to what it is in years prior, comparable to what
    it was in 2019.
        The massive amount of fraud that you are legitimately
    concerned about--I am, too--occurred in the Pandemic
    Unemployment Assistance program, which did not have those same
    requirements. And on those, the 10 percent, the $11 billion or
    so, which is 10 percent of the total payments, that 10 percent
    is about the same as what the Department of Labor estimates is
    the fraud nationwide on the system.
        Again, I'm not trying to defend it or to justify it. I am
    putting it in context.
        We also did bring in an external strike team in California
    to look at why there were so many--why there were delays in
    payments, to dig deep and figure out what we needed to fix, and
    then we made that strike team report public, too. So I think
    transparency is very, very important in government. It has
    raised more attention on what we're doing in California, but it
    also then allows us to talk about the early and aggressive
    steps that we took, as I mentioned, to stop the fraud.
        The Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program was more
    vulnerable to fraud. I say it's one of the fronts in the war
    because we've all learned from--again, it was a balance there
    of wanting to get money out quickly because we needed to, and
    then once we saw the fraud we took immediate steps. Those steps
    led to the same steps being taken by the Department of Labor,
    instructing other states to do that, and Congress also took
    steps, including back in December with the Continued Assistance
    Act, putting in more criteria before payments could be made.
        This is a front of the war that's going to require all
    hands on deck, and my sense is that on the fraud piece, because
    every state has seen it and it has slowed payment in every
    state, it's further threatened technological systems that were
    already vulnerable, that we need a national approach to the
    national problem. And based on my firsthand experience in the
    trenches in California, I would bring that experience. I think
    we need people who understand and have a clear-eyed view of
    what the myriad problems are and how they interconnect and what
    we can do about them to both make sure that we're making
    payments when needed and we are stopping fraud where we need
    to.
        Senator Collins. Well, my time has expired. I will follow-
    up with you on these issues because I still don't think I got
    an answer to my question about your suspending the
    requirements.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Collins.
        We'll turn to Senator Baldwin.
        Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Chair Murray.
        Thank you, Secretary Su, for joining us today. I look
    forward to your swift confirmation, and I look forward to
    working with you to address the many challenges that our
    Nation's workers and families and businesses are facing.
        Millions of essential health care workers, food service
    workers, and others have been on the front lines of this
    pandemic since it began, and I believe that it's time for the
    Congress and the Administration to step up and put their health
    and safety first.
        Included in the January 21st Executive Order on protecting
    worker health and safety, President Biden asked Congress to
    pass legislation that strengthens and expands OSHA's ability to
    protect workers, just as provisions in my COVID-19 Every Worker
    Protection Act would do.
        Do you believe that protecting worker health is central to
    combatting the spread of this pandemic? And do you believe that
    the issuance of an OSHA emergency temporary standard is still
    necessary to help protect workers from COVID and to help
    businesses safely reopen?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much for that question, Senator
    Baldwin. I so enjoyed our conversation, including our memories
    of childhood where my parents lived in Eagle Heights and what
    you said about the incredible diversity that you experienced as
    an elementary school student and how much that affected your
    whole worldview and your outlook. I really appreciated that.
        The answer to your question is I do agree that we need to
    do everything we can to protect the health and safety of
    workers. What we have seen in this pandemic is really just what
    happens when workers are forced to go to work without proper
    protections. I think a global pandemic really drives home the
    point that worker health is public health, and we need to be
    sure that we are doing what we can both as a matter of worker
    protection but also as a matter of public health protection. If
    we cannot stop the spread in workplaces, we cannot get a handle
    on the pandemic, and that is a key prerequisite to getting our
    economy back on track.
        At the heart of my decades of work has been protecting
    workers. I will say that in terms of--I think that there's also
    a very important role when we talk about workplace standards to
    do outreach to support employers who are working to put
    standards in place. I heard from hundreds of employers in
    California, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, about
    the need for help in trying to figure out what exactly needed
    to be done to create safe workplaces.
        To that end, in California we actually created an employer
    portal. What this does is it allows employers to enter in their
    address, their zip code, their industry, and it pulls from all
    the various guidance that is out there. It pulls from county
    public health guidance, workplace-specific guidance. It pulls
    from industry guidance and California State Public Health
    guidance in order to generate a roadmap for employers on what a
    site-specific workplace health and safety plan looks like. So
    it's an example of that I think we need to give employers the
    tools and clear guidance in order to protect their workers.
        In terms of your question about the emergency temporary
    standard, I know that this is something that the Department is
    still working on, and I expect that the results of their work
    and consideration over the last couple of months will be
    imminent.
        Senator Baldwin. Thank you. I want to continue on the topic
    of worker safety. The COVID-19 pandemic has worsened many
    issues that health care and social service workers were already
    experiencing before the pandemic began. According to the GAO,
    these workers experienced incidents of violence at 12 times the
    rate for the overall workforce.
        My Workplace Violence Prevention for Health Care and Social
    Service Workers Act would direct OSHA to create a standard to
    better protect these workers. Will you commit to placing this
    important safety issue back on the Department's agenda and work
    with this Committee to help tackle the issue of violence in the
    workplace?
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I see that my time is up,
    so I will say that I definitely agree that preventing violence
    in the workplace is very important, and I would look forward to
    working with you on that issue.
        Senator Baldwin. Thank you.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Baldwin.
        Senator Cassidy.
        [Pause.]
        The Chair. Senator Cassidy is not in line. We'll turn to
    Senator Kaine.
        Senator Kaine. Thank you, Chair Murray, Ranking Member
    Burr, and Ms. Su. It was good to visit with you. I enjoyed our
    visit the other day.
        I think the questions that are asked about the fraud issues
    are important, but I do want to share a Virginia perspective,
    because we were really beset with some similar challenges.
        At the time that the pandemic hit us, we were at a record
    low unemployment, and that also led in Virginia, and I'm
    assuming in California and elsewhere--staffing levels at our
    agencies had also dropped pretty significantly as the
    unemployment rate had come down for a number of years.
        Congress, wanting to do the right thing, thank goodness, in
    a bipartisan way, did three things to put real significant
    burdens on our state unemployment agencies. First, we expanded
    the unemployment benefit, the additional $600 a week, and
    that's now being revised as we go. But that was an initial
    challenge, take the state normal reimbursement rate and add
    that $600 to it.
        Second, we extended the number of weeks that someone could
    claim unemployment insurance. Again, that was a smart thing to
    do.
        But the third thing that was probably the really
    challenging thing was the PUA program, which dramatically
    expanded the universe of people who could get unemployment. I
    think I've often heard my colleague, Senator Warner, say that,
    sadly, in the current American workforce, only about 30 percent
    of American workers fit within the traditional UI model because
    it was designed so long ago. So now we have gig workers and
    part-timers and self-employed and sole proprietors. We have
    this huge universe of people who aren't in the system at all.
    And again acting quickly, as we needed to, we said, hey, look,
    this is a group of people that has some significant need right
    now, so we want to create an unemployment insurance program for
    them as well.
        Now, as I understood your answer to Senator Collins'
    question, it sounds like the fraud challenges that you dealt
    with in California, and are still dealing with, and we are in
    Virginia too, are disproportionately in that third program,
    Congress' mandate that states offer unemployment benefits to
    this massive universe of people who had never been in the
    system before. Did I understand that answer correctly?
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you so much, Senator. I enjoyed our
    conversation very much, too.
        That is exactly correct. Over 95 percent of the fraud that
    we have experienced in California is in that Pandemic
    Unemployment Assistance program, which, as you said, by design
    was intended for people who were not eligible for regular
    unemployment insurance. It did not have the same checks against
    your employer or look at your prior earnings at the outset of
    the program.
        Senator Kaine. Our design of it--again, we were trying to
    act quickly because the economy needed it, so I'm not saying we
    did anything wrong, but that expansion at a time when staffing
    levels were already at historic lows, it created fraud
    challenges in Virginia. It created unacceptable backlogs. I
    mean, people were flooding my offices with calls about how
    come, I'm supposed to qualify, I see what Congress has done,
    but I can't get an answer.
        I think these are significant challenges, and I do think
    there has to be an answer about how we dealt with it, did we
    deal with it correctly or not. But there also has to be an
    answer for us because I think one of the challenges coming out
    of the pandemic is do we have a UI system that's fit for the
    21st century versus a UI system that's designed for the 1950's.
    I mean, if we're going to have now a workforce that is largely
    maybe gig workers and sole proprietors and part-timers and
    things like that who aren't included in traditional UI, a
    question that we have to grapple with on the HELP Committee and
    in Congress generally is do we need to broaden the UI system?
    And if so, how do we do it, how do we pay for it, how do we
    avoid fraud, how do we avoid unacceptable waiting times for
    people to get benefits if we decide that they're entitled to
    them?
        I think it's a really important issue not just because of
    past performance for all of us, but I think there's probably
    forward-looking reforms that we might have to make, and the
    experience of people flooding in and saying, well, I'm a sole
    proprietor so you should give me benefits, it turns out they're
    not, we will probably have to have different fraud detection
    mechanisms if we expand the universe in that way than we would
    with traditional employees.
        Let me ask you this. If we're going to do an infrastructure
    economic recovery bill, and I hope we will, I really worry that
    we don't have the workforce currently to do infrastructure. We
    don't have a sizable enough workforce to do infrastructure. The
    last question I'll ask is at DOL, how would you contemplate
    working together with the Secretary to think about the
    workforce challenges attendant upon hopefully a significant
    infrastructure investment?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. I think this is one of
    the biggest opportunities we have to align the skills of the
    American workforce, especially coming out of this period of
    unemployment and economic difficulty, with the need to rebuild,
    an opportunity to rebuild infrastructure. Every goal that we
    have, every opportunity that we have to ensure a clean climate,
    to build enough housing, to ensure that we have roads and a
    transportation system and bridges that work, and schools, all
    of these are opportunities to create good jobs in the
    communities that need them the most, and I think that aligning
    our workforce system so that we are training for those jobs,
    and also ensuring equity and access to those jobs, that those
    who face the greatest barriers to employment who might
    otherwise be left out, we have an opportunity to be very
    thoughtful about all of those goals, and I really see them as
    opportunities, and I would look very forward to working with
    you and with the people at the Department of Labor to make
    those things happen if I'm confirmed.
        Senator Kaine. I've run over my time. Thank you, Chair
    Murray.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Kaine.
        Senator Murkowski.
        Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Su, welcome, and thank you for the opportunity to have
    the conversation that we did. I appreciated the discussion,
    much of which you've raised here today with regards to
    unemployment insurance and how we deal with the matters of
    fraud. I think what Senator Kaine has raised just in terms of
    recognizing that going forward we need to be looking really
    structurally at that system that was built perhaps on a model
    that folks really didn't anticipate we would see these changes
    in this very mobile, very nimble workforce of today.
        You and I didn't have an opportunity to speak to it in our
    conversation, but I understand that when you had a chance to
    visit with some of the staff here on the HELP Committee, the
    issue of H2A/H2B visas came up. I know that is something
    significant from my perspective with Alaska's seasonal
    workforce. And while that is something that is not exclusively
    within Department of Labor, it shares with Homeland as well,
    that is a matter that we struggle every season at just about
    this time of year to ensure that we have the necessary numbers
    of seafood workers able to come to the state, again for a very
    reduced season. And working within Department of Labor, with
    the folks over at Homeland, to assure that those visas are able
    to be issued is something that continues to be a priority.
        I wish that I didn't have to come back every year and make
    this case and make this argument. We would like to get a
    permanent fix, and we would hope that we would be able to work
    within the Department to achieve just that.
        Just to follow on a little bit to what Senator Kaine
    mentioned with regards to what we're seeing with the gig
    worker, the regulations that we have in place currently, which
    define employee versus independent contractor, are ones that we
    see come into play for discussion and great debate from time to
    time. What steps--just kind of general conversation here--what
    steps would you take if you're confirmed to address these
    regulations as they relate to definitions of employee versus
    independent contractor?
        Ms. Su. Well, thank you very much, Senator. And thank you
    also for the conversation that we had prior to this hearing.
        I think that question is very important. It's important in
    our economy. I think that every worker who goes to work when
    they have the protections of employee status, they know that
    they will be protected by minimum wage and overtime laws. They
    know that they will be protected by workplace health and safety
    laws. They know that if they are injured, they have worker's
    compensation, and if they are unemployed they will get the
    unemployment insurance benefits. So this question is really
    important to the basic protections in the workplace.
        I will also say that in my years of working in government,
    I have met with thousands of employers who speak about the need
    for a level playing field, who say that it is extremely
    difficult to comply with labor laws if their competition is
    allowed to evade those same labor laws, creating a race to the
    bottom.
        I think that these issues are at the heart of the question
    that you asked. If confirmed, I would work closely with the
    Solicitor and the staff at the Department of Labor to be
    thoughtful, to seek input about guidance, and I think that the
    principles of worker protection and level playing field are
    just so important, especially as we look to what it means to
    build back better, what it means to build an economy that works
    for everybody.
        I will also say something just on your question about H2Bs.
    I think that's a really important issue too, and if confirmed,
    I would work again with the Department to ensure that we have
    both timeliness and consistency of consideration of the visas
    that you're talking about, knowing how important they are
    especially to your state and to others.
        Senator Murkowski. Thank you for that.
        My time is just about expired. But to the point about
    workforce and workforce development, we have good, strong
    training programs within our unions within the state. They do a
    great job. We've got a Job Corps that we think should be more
    of a model around the country in terms of how we ensure that it
    is workers trained for the jobs that are available, but would
    hope that you would have an opportunity to look to some of the
    successes that we have with our specific job training.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Murkowski.
        We'll turn to Senator Hassan.
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair and
    Ranking Member Burr.
        Thank you, Secretary Su, for being here today, and thank
    you for your willingness to serve.
        I want to start with two questions about retirement, and
    then I have a couple of other questions if we get through
    those.
        As you know, the United States Department of Labor is
    tasked with helping more workers save for retirement and
    helping retirees protect and utilize their savings. We know
    that Americans of all ages are struggling to save for
    retirement, and many American workers and retirees are at risk
    of outliving their retirement savings. One recent survey found
    that one in five Americans in their 70's have less than $50,000
    saved.
        As Deputy Secretary of Labor, what policies would you focus
    on to help American workers save more for retirement?
        Ms. Su. Thank you very much, Senator. I think this is such
    an important issue. Americans work so hard so that they can
    have a safe and secure retirement. I know from, again, my mom's
    experience that the pension that she has that now allows she
    and my father to live in retirement is absolutely critical to
    their health and their well-being.
        A couple of things on that. I would say the issue you're
    raising is why the multi-employer pension relief that was part
    of the American Rescue Plan was so important, again just making
    sure that employees who have been paying into retirement and
    relying on their pensions get them is very, very critical.
        Then I think that retirement savers also need to get the
    kind of advice that they need to make sure that they're
    investing their retirement in the best way possible for
    themselves. And if confirmed, I look forward to being briefed
    on the rulemaking process at the Department of Labor on this
    issue and to understanding what we can do to better protect
    retirees, which is a basic part of the fundamental mission of
    the Department.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you. In addition to helping more
    Americans save for retirement, I believe we also have to work
    to protect retirement accounts from potential cyber security
    threats. Yesterday, following a request from myself, Madam
    Chair, and House Education and Labor Chair Bobby Scott, the
    Government Accountability Office released a report highlighting
    the threat that cyber attacks pose to retirement plans. The
    report confirmed that cyber threats put private defined
    contribution retirement plans like 401(k)'s by more than 100
    million Americans at risk and recommends that the Department of
    Labor take action to address this issue. I believe that
    Congress and the Department obviously must do everything that
    we can to protect against these cyber security risks.
        As Deputy Secretary of Labor, what policies would you focus
    on to help ensure the security of retirement plans?
        Ms. Su. I think that issue of ensuring against cyber
    attacks, we've certainly seen again in the last year, and even
    in this conversation, just how important that is, and I would
    again seek a full briefing from the Department on the steps
    that are already in place, do an assessment along with the
    Secretary on what else we need to do, how we need to make sure
    that they're stronger and definitely consider this a very high
    priority, especially as we know that the President has actually
    called for providing almost all workers with access to a 401(k)
    of some sort. So I think it absolutely will be a priority for
    me and for the Department.
        Senator Hassan. I also think it's going to take convening
    not only government experts and agencies but the private
    sector, too.
        Ms. Su. Absolutely.
        Senator Hassan. Because this has to be a joint effort, and
    it's critically important to the economic security of so many
    Americans, right?
        Ms. Su. Without a doubt. And I think that is a--the point
    of creating more public-private partnerships, especially in
    things like this where there is tremendous expertise in the
    private sector, bringing that to bear on the challenges that we
    face in government is, I think, also very, very important, and
    I look forward to learning about partnerships that already
    exist and building on those, and also finding where there are
    gaps and making sure that we fill them.
        Senator Hassan. All right, thank you. And let's turn to one
    other issue quickly. As Secretary of the California Labor and
    Workforce Development Agency, you have firsthand experience
    executing traditional unemployment insurance programs and
    expanded benefits at the state level. While states have primary
    responsibility for distributing unemployment insurance, the
    Department of Labor plays a significant role as well.
        Based on your own experience, how can the Department of
    Labor better support states administering these programs, and
    should Congress consider reforms to improve the administration
    of unemployment insurance going forward?
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I see that I don't have a
    lot of time, but I'll try to--I do think this connects to
    Senator Kaine and Senator Murkowski, the points about that we
    have an opportunity now to look at the unemployment insurance
    system, how it works and how it doesn't.
        At the first level I would say that the Department of
    Labor, in providing consistent and clear guidance, is
    absolutely critical to the states. Again, I have seen firsthand
    the importance of that consistency. And because it is a
    Federal-state program, I think there are many opportunities for
    better collaboration both on the administration of benefits and
    on the fight against fraud in a collaborative way between the
    Federal Government and all the states.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you very much.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Cassidy.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Su, I enjoyed our conversation on the phone.
        Just to follow-up a little bit on what Senator Hassan said,
    and some others, she asked, going off of her last question
    regarding how can DOL better support a state agency, to return
    to an earlier line of questioning by others--obviously, one of
    the concerns, and just to hear your straightforward response to
    this, is that the DOL Office of Inspector General had warned
    your state agency in May 2020 that at least $1.2 billion in
    benefits paid out in March and April were potentially
    fraudulent.
        It seems as if these red flags were being raised and were
    not addressed by your department in California until August
    2020, at which point the $600 stimulus checks had run out. It
    kind of begs the question why did your agency not respond more
    quickly? And if DOL has to do more, what more should DOL do to
    have an agency be more responsive?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. Thank you for our
    conversation also.
        I think on those questions, again, the perfect storm of
    challenges that we faced in California that all states faced,
    there was the Federal Department of Labor's warning about
    fraud. That itself has also really been evolving over time. The
    estimate of what the fraud was at the beginning has gone up
    because we have seen that the massive attacks, they weren't the
    typical kind of fraud that usually hits the unemployment----
        Senator Cassidy. Well, let me ask, because I understand
    that the specific thing pinpointed was the lack of
    identification, insufficient requirement for identification.
    Now, that seems as if that would be roughly scalable; that,
    yes, we have a lot more, but we still have to check your
    identity because whether it's few or many, we have to know it's
    truly somebody who is worthy, who exists, is actually applying,
    and DOL flagged that.
        I guess I'll just go back to my question. What could DOL
    have done differently, and why was there such a hesitancy in
    your department to respond to the warnings they did give?
        Ms. Su. Senator, that question really goes to Senator
    Kaine's point. The concern that the DOL OIG raised was because,
    by design, the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program was
    meant to pay out to individuals who were not eligible for
    regular UI and who did not have either employer records, which
    the traditional UI system checks against, or prior earnings,
    which the traditional UI system guards against. As I mentioned,
    in California, that kind of fraud was comparable to prior years
    of fraud.
        The massive fraud was in a system that, by design, did not
    have those in place, and I believe what the DOL was doing was
    raising the concern about that.
        The other vulnerability in the system was what is known as
    automatic backdating, basically when somebody applied for PUA,
    they could get benefits back to the beginning of the pandemic.
    It was that vulnerability that became exploited. Now, the rule
    that the DOL had at the time was automatic backdating. Again,
    once we saw the spike in those claims, which was in August, in
    the first weeks of September we shut down automatic backdating.
    That then triggered the Department of Labor followed by
    instructing all states to do so.
        Again, I think that this is a front on the battle that we
    have to bring--build a table with experts to really be smart
    about how we address them, collaborate between the states so
    the states are not fighting the battle on their own. But at the
    end of the day, truly understanding what happened and why it
    happened is going to be very important for fixing the problem.
        Senator Cassidy. Next let me ask, as regards multi-employer
    pension funds, which Senator Hassan just raised, because I
    think you'll be part of that process, $86 billion in debt was
    wiped away with no structural changes made. We could begin re-
    accumulating that debt.
        What ideas do you have that could prevent us from just
    getting another $86 billion until we blow out spending some
    time in the future and don't pay for it in a way to clear the
    deck?
        Ms. Su. Senator, without a lot of time left to address that
    fully, I will say that I will commit to working on that issue,
    if confirmed. I think that relates to my general approach,
    which is that I do think we have to solve problems before they
    become bigger problems, and being clear-eyed and thoughtful and
    bringing experts to the table to really understand the problem,
    how we got there and how we prevent it in the future I would
    assure you would be a priority of mine in my approach to the
    job if I'm confirmed.
        Senator Cassidy. Okay, thank you.
        I yield back.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Murphy.
        Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
        Welcome. Thank you for your prior service and your
    willingness to serve at the Federal level.
        I wanted to stay on the topic of your service in California
    but on a different subject, and that is a law that California
    has had on the books for a while effectively banning the use of
    something called non-compete agreements. Non-compete agreements
    cover today about 20 percent of U.S. employees. They impact
    low-skilled and low-wage workers, just as they impact higher-
    skill and higher-wage workers, and they are inherently non-
    competitive. They effectively give employers a veto right over
    an employee's right to choose where they work.
        This is becoming a real area of bipartisan agreement. We
    have legislation modeled after California's in Congress now
    that's supported by a bipartisan coalition of Senators. And so
    while this is an issue that will more likely be regulated by
    the FTC than Labor, the Department of Labor still has the
    ability to glean information about the impact of non-competes.
    President Biden ran on a promise to address this issue.
        I wanted to ask you about what your experience is in
    California with a fairly rigorous restriction on non-compete
    agreements and whether you'd be willing to work with the
    Committee and with the Senate to at least make sure that the
    DOL provides relevant information to help us make a decision
    moving forward on this issue.
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you so much, Senator. Absolutely, yes,
    to working together on this issue if I'm confirmed. I think
    this is one of those examples of how something that's good for
    workers is actually also good for employers. The ability for
    employers to attract and train the talent that they need, I
    think it's just a very important part of, again, the many areas
    of common ground, that when we do something that protects
    workers, there's also a benefit to employers. So absolutely,
    yes, to working on the issue together.
        Senator Murphy. My sense is that in California you found
    that the existing protections for intellectual property and
    trade secrets is sufficient in order to make sure that
    employees who are leaving one firm that's highly dependent on
    IP doesn't take it and bring it illegally to another company.
    It's important for folks to remember that just because the non-
    compete agreement may not be available to employers, they
    aren't bereft of other mechanisms to stop the illegal transfer
    of intellectual property. Is that correct?
        Ms. Su. Absolutely, Senator. Yes.
        Senator Murphy. The second topic that I wanted to touch on
    is related to this issue of unemployment but specific to the
    issue of long-term unemployment. We have a workforce training
    agency in Connecticut called The WorkPlace that has been
    featured in national publications and national media because
    they have specifically attacked this issue of long-term
    unemployment with a program called Platform to Employment. And
    it recognizes the fact that for folks that have been out of the
    workforce for a very long time, for years in some cases, there
    are all sorts of ancillary effects to that individual and to
    that family that have to be dealt with in order to get them
    back into the workforce, and I think we're going to be looking
    at a very large population of long-term unemployed once we
    finally turn the corner.
        Is this something that you have looked at specifically in a
    targeted way in California? Do you think it's worthwhile for
    the Department of Labor to think about this specific population
    of individuals who have been out of the workforce for a long
    time--frankly, right now, they don't even show up in our
    statistics--and look at programs like Platform to employ others
    that have had success in bringing people back into the
    workforce?
        Ms. Su. That's right. Thank you, Senator. Yes, I think that
    it is definitely a population that needs and deserves our
    attention, again especially coming out of the pandemic, where
    we have seen long periods of unemployment for individuals and,
    frankly, people dropping out of the labor force as a result,
    disproportionately women workers. So I think that there is a
    tremendous need to target our workforce programs on those who
    face the greatest challenges, and the long-term unemployed are
    certainly one of those.
        I will also just note that I know there are innovative and
    effective programs in your state and other states that we ought
    to be building on, and California too. We have invested in what
    we call high-road training partnerships, really demand-driven
    partnerships between employers and employees where industry
    comes together with business, management, labor, community
    colleges and other educational institutions, and community-
    based organizations to support people who try to get into the
    workforce, and creating opportunities for high-road jobs where
    people can actually support a family and lift themselves out of
    poverty.
        I think finding those innovations and figuring out how we
    duplicate them, where appropriate, is something I would love to
    do, and I know there are models in your state that we could
    use.
        Senator Murphy. That's great to hear. Platform to
    Employment has an 80 percent success rate, and some economists
    suggest one out of three jobs that have disappeared during the
    pandemic aren't coming back. So this is going to be a problem
    that we all have to deal with.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Murphy.
        Senator Smith.
        Senator Smith. Thank you, Madam Chair and Ranking Member
    Burr. It's great to be with everyone.
        Secretary Su, I'm so happy to see you here and grateful for
    your willingness to serve, and I just want to thank you so much
    and congratulate you on your nomination.
        I'm struck listening to this conversation and the questions
    from my colleagues about how important the Department of Labor
    is right now, and how the Department of Labor was envisioned as
    an agency, as an advocate for working people, and how crucial
    that is, especially as we emerge from COVID, a pandemic that
    has laid bare so many of the inequities in our system, and a
    pandemic that has had a particularly hard impact on women and
    people of color. So I, for one, am really grateful for your
    leadership, your management and experience, and the capacity
    that you can bring to this role.
        I want to just take a minute of my time also to note how
    exciting it is that we have finally made progress in the
    American Rescue Plan on passing essentially the Butch Lewis
    Act, which will ensure that retirees and people who have
    counted on their pension through a multi-employer pension plan
    know that those pensions are going to be secure. This is
    something that I've worked on carefully and hard with Senator
    Brown and Senator Baldwin and many others. So it is fantastic
    that we've been able to get this done, and it is going to make
    such a difference to the 22,000 Minnesotans who count on the
    Central States pension for their safe and secure retirement,
    and for thousands and thousands more folks around the country.
    So I just wanted to take a moment to mention that.
        Secretary Su, I want to ask you a question about wage
    theft. According to the Economic Policy Institute, Americans
    lose three times more in wage theft than they do in street
    robberies, bank robberies, gas station robberies, and
    convenience store robberies combined. And this is, of course,
    disproportionately impacting low-wage workers, women, and
    workers of color, who are more often than not the victims of
    wage theft.
        I understand that you have done a lot of work on this in
    California, so I wonder if you could share with us how you
    think about wage theft and what do you think the Department of
    Labor should be doing to better stop it.
        Ms. Su. Well, thank you so much, Senator. Actually, that
    statistic is one that I used when I was leading what's the
    equivalent of the Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division
    in California both as a grounding and as a motivation for the
    importance of our work, so thank you for that.
        I think that wage theft is one of those phenomena that
    fundamentally disrupts the basic promise of our society, that
    somebody who goes to work should be paid what they were
    promised. So I think the Department of Labor has a very
    important role to play. Again, in California, I launched the
    Wage Theft is a Crime campaign when I oversaw that department.
    What we did was we eliminated the random, scattershot
    inspections. I don't think that it's beneficial for employers
    or employees or, frankly, for government when our
    investigations are random. I think it's really important to
    focus on those who willfully break the law and make sure that
    we send a clear message that's not going to be tolerated.
        I also think it's very important to put the right tools in
    the hands of our staff. When I had that position in California
    I invested in technology, in making sure that we had tablets in
    the field, making sure that employees have what they need to do
    their jobs effectively. And then we engaged in outreach with
    employers and with employees to make sure that people knew what
    the rules were that they were supposed to play by, and that we
    were hearing about the effects of our enforcement.
        I think it's a really important priority, a very important
    responsibility of the Department, and I understand it is one
    where it could use some attention. If confirmed, I would look
    forward to bringing a strategic and thoughtful approach to the
    fight against wage theft.
        Senator Smith. Thank you, and I look forward to working
    with you on that. You are talking about the value of
    technology. I totally agree with you on that. And also the
    importance of enforcement. If there isn't good enforcement,
    then people will continue to try to push the rules, the bad
    employers will continue to try to push the rules, and too often
    working people just don't have the power to protect themselves
    in these circumstances.
        I also agree with you on the power of communications to
    make sure that employers and employees understand what's
    happening and how they can fight it. So, thank you very much.
        Ms. Su. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Burr, did you have an additional question?
        Senator Rosen.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you, Madam Chair, I appreciate it.
        Thank you, Ms. Su, for being here, for stepping forward to
    serve, for your inspiring family story. I really enjoyed our
    conversation, and I know how much you'll do to support working
    families who really are the backbone not just of Nevada but of
    this entire nation. They make our tourism, our hospitality, our
    entertainment economy possible for my home state, and I look
    forward to working with you.
        But we have a lot of work to do, and I'd like to focus a
    little bit on the cyber workforce, because one of the things I
    really enjoyed talking with you about is apprenticeship
    programs, particularly in the IT and cyber fields. We tend to
    think of apprenticeships as just related to the building trades
    because they work so well there, but I believe that we really
    could expand the model to strengthen the pipelines in the
    critical IT and cyber security industries. This is going to
    give more young people a chance at these good-paying jobs or
    folks who want to be retrained for jobs.
        I've introduced bipartisan legislation to help create and
    expand registered apprenticeship programs in cyber security,
    and I look forward to working with you on that when you're
    confirmed.
        Can you talk about some of the work you did in California
    in this field and how you work to scale these programs at a
    Federal level? We all care about apprenticeships. How do we
    expand these opportunities in our states?
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you very much for that, Senator. I would
    say that this topic of workforce development and job training
    programs and how we invest in those who need jobs came up in
    nearly every one of my conversations with the Senators on this
    Committee. So I look forward, if confirmed, to working with
    everybody on these really important issues.
        In terms of apprenticeships, you are absolutely right, I
    loved our conversation about it, and I certainly found in
    California that it is one of the strongest ways we have both to
    meet the needs of employers and to create pathways for
    individuals who might not otherwise have the opportunity for
    good jobs. As you said, apprenticeships in the building trades
    have really set the gold standard and created an opening for us
    to look at how we utilize the model of learn and earn, how we
    help people who otherwise wouldn't be able to stop working or
    to get training to train for good-paying, middle-class jobs.
        I think a big part of making apprenticeships work is the
    partnership, is creating alignment between employers and
    employees, educational institutions, community-based
    organizations, and to create systems that really support the
    needs of employers and the needs of employees for jobs. I know
    I've talked to apprentices who got out of a domestic violence
    situation because they were given a chance to be an apprentice,
    who lived in homeless shelters but through an apprenticeship
    found a job working at a high-end hotel as a cook. I mentioned
    high-road training partnerships earlier. We have a hospitality
    training academy, a partnership with Local 11, which has
    trained individuals for hospitality jobs.
        To your point, Senator, about cyber security, I think
    that's one of those in-demand jobs. They're good-paying jobs,
    and they're jobs that have already been identified as if we're
    not deliberate about diversity and access for communities, then
    it will not happen on its own.
        Apprenticeships is a way for us to make sure that we create
    equal access to these jobs. And I've certainly talked to
    apprentices for whom their time in school, in high school, it
    didn't make sense to them why they were learning about right
    angles or measurements. But when you put them into an
    apprenticeship where they're really learning how these things
    apply in the real world, it makes a really big difference.
        Senator Rosen. I want to build on that really quickly with
    the minute I have left, because women have been hit the hardest
    in this pandemic. You were talking about it, apprenticeships
    and training people or retraining people. But I want to focus
    on returnships where we create pathways for mid-career workers
    who return to the workforce. We know this pandemic has really
    impacted women, their ability to return maybe after having to
    step away for child care or other caregiving. I have a STEM
    Restart Act that's going to create a national program that
    would bridge the gap between workers who are more likely to be
    long-term unemployed and underrepresented in STEM, and so I
    would love to talk to you about this idea not just of
    apprenticeships but returnships for that mid-career worker who
    really needs to retool for a variety of reasons or jobs now
    that may not even come back after the pandemic.
        Ms. Su. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you so much. I think
    there's a spectrum, from pre-apprenticeships to what you're
    talking about for incumbent workers and upward mobility, all
    very important. Thank you.
        Senator Rosen. Thank you very much. I really look forward
    to working with you, and my time has expired.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Rosen.
        We'll turn to Senator Marshall.
        Senator Marshall. I thank the Madam Chair, and welcome as
    well.
        I think my first question, as potentially to be the Deputy
    Secretary of the Department of Labor, your State of California,
    like our State of Kansas, really struggled with fraud in the
    unemployment insurance, really struggled and continue to
    struggle. What lessons did we learn, and what was the cause of
    it? Under your new leadership, what would you do to help stop
    the fraud?
        Ms. Su. Thank you so much, Senator. So, yes, what I've
    described really as a perfect storm during this pandemic of
    very high demand for benefits on the heels of very low levels
    of unemployment, which in the UI world translates into very low
    levels of staffing, and then on top of that infrastructure and
    capacity issues, I think all of those provide important
    lessons. And then on top of that we have to layer what you
    mentioned. I know you experienced it in your state; we did in
    ours, of course, and it really hit state after state. The
    fraud, the criminal enterprise type of fraud, I think it's so
    important to understand just the scope and the scale and the
    relentlessness of the kind of fraud that we faced, which is a
    different animal really than what the unemployment insurance
    system was built to prevent.
        I will answer this question with what I think are four
    basic lessons. The first I talked about earlier, which is I do
    think the Department of Labor's consistent and clear guidance
    about what the states need to do to implement benefit programs,
    especially new benefit programs at the Federal level that have
    not been in place before is really critical. That kind of
    guidance has to come out timely, it has to be clear, and it has
    to stay consistent.
        The second is those investments in infrastructure, and by
    this I mean technology but not just technology. In fact, in
    many of the states where technology upgrades had been made,
    they were still hit by the kinds of fraud schemes that we're
    talking about. So it's the ability to create a flexible,
    reliable system that works but that is also nimble enough to
    respond to what we've seen over the last year.
        The third is that I think that we need a coordinated
    response to the fraud that recognizes it was a national
    problem. It has been called the biggest fraud scheme in United
    States history. It is a national threat, and it needs to be
    responded to with a national response.
        Now, it should be done as a Federal-state partnership. The
    states have struggled against significant odds to process the
    unprecedented volume of claims and to implement new Federal
    programs and I think would welcome that kind of partnership
    with the Federal Government.
        The last piece I would just say is we still have to pay
    attention to equity in all of this. We saw that the pandemic
    disproportionately hit African American workers, Hispanic
    workers, Pacific Islander workers, women workers, and our
    unemployment insurance benefits system has to be aware of and
    responsive to those kinds of needs. This applies also to rural
    workers----
        Senator Marshall. I need to move on to the next question,
    if you don't mind. Thank you for that answer.
        Our state of Kansas, our Governor, also struggled mightily
    getting out the unemployment insurance benefits. It's the
    number-one complaint we get from Kansans, typically still
    getting 15 complaints a day, story after story, people crying
    and calling and saying, look, we don't have money to pay for
    electricity, enough money to go get groceries, waiting on those
    unemployment checks still. So here's fraud happening. The
    people who need it aren't getting it. Would you add anything
    else to what you would do to improve that situation as well,
    other than the four points you already made?
        Ms. Su. I agree. I think that was the challenge, and I
    think understanding the multiple reasons why that happened. But
    your point is that there is a tension between paying benefits
    out quickly to those who need them and stopping the fraud. The
    unemployment insurance system is a constant effort to make sure
    that we do both of those things well. I would say that the
    priorities I raised but other ideas that I know this Committee
    is likely to have based on the multiple experiences in your
    state, I would very much welcome conversations about how we
    tackle it.
        Senator Marshall. Okay. Next I just want to go really at a
    high level, at least a 20,000-foot-high level, maybe even
    higher. Right now, employers are trying to figure out how to
    make a safe work environment with COVID, and we realize the
    science is not settled. The science is never settled. With
    viruses, the only predictability about them is that they're
    unpredictable.
        We've been told to wear one mask, no mask, two masks. We've
    been told to have our kids three feet apart, six feet apart,
    and the truth is we don't know, that we're shooting from the
    hip. The science is really a stretch, for the most part.
        But your guidance to employers is going to have a huge
    impact. You set the gold standard, you set the bar, this is
    what an employer needs to do. Just kind of describe how you
    look at that situation, maybe not real specifically, but what
    rules will guide you, your values?
        Ms. Su. I think that's right, Senator. We have to be based
    on science. We have to be based on our evolving understanding
    of the virus that we face. And I agree with you that is why as
    clear guidance as we can put out so that employers know what
    they need to do to keep their employees safe, but also
    themselves, right? What's required in order for them to keep
    their business operating, it's very important for us to be
    based in science, and then to make sure that we are doing as
    much outreach as we can so that employers understand their
    obligations. And then, as I talked about earlier, creating
    tools for employers who are struggling to comply to do so.
        Senator Marshall. The point I'm trying to make is there's
    not good science, and you try to apply the science, but the
    science we're getting now is not the Gospel. Half of it is
    wrong; I just don't know which half.
        Thank you so much for being here.
        Thank you, and I yield back.
        The Chair. Thank you very much.
        Senator Hickenlooper.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Sorry about that. I'm going to get
    this muting and unmuting eventually.
        First I want to congratulate you, Ms. Su, on your
    nomination to be Deputy Secretary. It's a tremendous honor,
    obviously, and you being the child of immigrants, it is a great
    inspirational message to people all over this country, and I
    know you're going to bring the same passion and experience to
    your new role.
        I listened with interest to your discussion with Senator
    Rosen about apprenticeships. I come at it from a slightly
    different point of view, with the recognition that almost half
    of the American workforce is in small businesses, and yet 70
    percent or over 70 percent of all American workers actually had
    their first job with a small business. But we know that growth
    is hindered when those positions that need to be filled need
    technical training or some form of certification. I think small
    businesses in health care or in technology, manufacturing,
    computer technology, these all need some sort of support in
    getting skilled workers, especially when they are small
    businesses.
        Are there ways that the public sector can assist private
    industry in these cases for the challenge, and would one of
    those ways be looking at a new form of apprenticeship and what
    that might mean for providing skilled employees to small
    businesses?
        Ms. Su. Well, thank you very much, Senator. Yes, I think
    that the apprenticeship model could certainly apply there.
    Apprenticeships are win/win, and looking at how we might meet
    the needs of employers of all sizes in industries like
    manufacturing, and related to our conversation about
    infrastructure, where are the jobs that we have and how do we
    create opportunities for people to be trained in those jobs and
    to do them.
        I also think that there are opportunities for government to
    help create bridges, right? A lot of our work is about aligning
    systems. So when you do have private industry that says I have
    the need for these workers, most of our employers are small, so
    the investments we would have to make in training site by site
    are really particularly high. We can look at opportunities to
    create broader training efforts for multiple employers and
    small employers that would help to meet their needs and again
    create those opportunities for good jobs for people who might
    not otherwise know about those jobs or might not otherwise
    acquire the skills for them.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Great, we agree on that.
        Let me switch gears a little bit. Back when I was a mayor,
    and that's a long time ago, we became aware of critical
    shortages in various industries for workers, but at the same
    time we saw again and again the lack of utilizing our senior
    workforce, and I think part of that comes back to the skills
    training that's hard to figure out how do we get people who are
    mid-career or toward the end of their career to get refreshed
    on skills training so that they are able to take on some of
    these jobs where we clearly have a need. I think Senator Rosen
    talked a little bit about this, as well, but this is kind of a
    different aspect of that.
        Ms. Su. Yes, Senator, that's right. I do think that is,
    though, another important aspect of the opportunities and
    training that's needed. I know we talked about this in our
    conversation, and I appreciated that. In California, we have
    what is called a Master Plan on Aging, which is meant to look
    at the needs of older Californians, and there is both the need
    on the--it raised all kinds of questions around care, but it
    also raises all kinds of questions for people staying in the
    workforce longer and what are the supports that are needed,
    what are the training as conditions in the workplace evolve,
    and I think those are all a really important part of our
    workforce challenges that, if confirmed, I would love to work
    with you on, and also work with good staff in the Department
    on.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Thank you. I look forward to
    working with you.
        I've got 20 seconds. If you could very concisely just talk
    a little bit about the skills gap in cyber security in terms of
    small businesses and kind of a commitment to help us tackle
    that.
        Ms. Su. Right. So, cyber security has been growing. It is a
    growth area. There are tens of thousands of cyber security jobs
    in large and small businesses, public and private, throughout
    the United State, and we have an opportunity to create a
    skilled workforce for those good, high-paying jobs, and I'd be
    very committed to working on that issue.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Thank you so much.
        I yield.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Braun.
        Senator Braun. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Secretary Lu, enjoyed our conversation. We covered a wide
    range of topics. I think it went up to a half-an-hour or so. I
    know we've only got 5 minutes here.
        You've come from a unique spot, being labor secretary in
    one of the largest economies in the world. I'd love to know
    what you think has worked well in California that you'd like to
    see happen on a Federal basis, and I'd like you to also put it
    in context. My own company that got to California roughly 10
    years ago, we recognize it as a fairly austere state when it
    comes to regulations of all sorts, and I think your report card
    would be graded by how many businesses choose to move into a
    state versus moving out. Maybe it's mostly anecdotal, but from
    our own experience we would say that it's not necessarily a
    business-friendly environment.
        That being said, tell me what you think you've done well in
    California, what you think you've done poorly at, and what
    you'd want to bring to the Federal level.
        Ms. Su. Well, thank you so much, Senator. I will say that,
    just going back to our conversation, one of the things you
    mentioned was that when you were hiring you found that there
    were more people with college degrees than needed, meaning that
    we need to make sure that those without college degrees have
    the skills needed for the jobs in their area.
        I agree with the importance of that point, and that's why I
    think we need to focus on, and we have in California--this is
    one of our successes, for sure--is looking at alternative
    degrees, looking at two-year colleges. We have a very robust
    community college system that we partner with a lot on the
    workforce side of things. We need to look at other kinds of
    credentials and certificates that both meet short term--the
    need to employ quickly, and the many desires and directions of
    job seekers.
        I think that's one area where I think we would have some
    common ground; and, if confirmed, I would be interested in
    working with you on this for the experiences in your state and
    meeting the needs of employers and of employees.
        I'll say another thing about growth of business in
    California. One of the things that I've seen in my work is that
    we have all kinds of businesses that both start there and come
    there. But one reason businesses come to California is because
    of the opportunity both to do well and to do good. Because of
    our training systems in place, especially for people who
    oftentimes would struggle to get a job at all--we're working
    with a business now who is interested in hiring, but also
    hiring formerly incarcerated individuals. So we have a training
    program for those individuals so that when they come out, they
    can actually get a job and get a second chance and find
    security and succeed.
        I think having training programs for the need but for
    communities who will benefit from them the most is really
    important, something that I would hope to bring to the job and
    something that I think not only California but that California
    has some models for.
        Senator Braun. I'm glad you brought that up because my
    experience back in Indiana was that we were wrestling with the
    Department of Education that was actually throughout the system
    stigmatizing that pathway of just better high school skills and
    the need to nurture as little education for those high-demand,
    high-wage jobs given the cost of how that has now eclipsed the
    cost of health care in terms of annual increases. So it's good
    that it seems in California, at least on workforce development,
    it sounds like something that you're doing well there.
        Let's get to another item of big versus small. When it
    comes to large business versus small business, and I know your
    roots are from the small business world, and mine as well, do
    you think there's a place, whether it be in California or at
    the Federal level, that you'd differentiate on how you treat,
    through labor practices, through rules and guidelines, to make
    it easier for small businesses, especially how they've been
    traumatized through the whole journey through COVID? Is there a
    way to do that and yet make sure that you have the practices
    that need to be universal there? Is there a way to
    differentiate? Because I think large business and small
    business have different characteristics.
        Ms. Su. Yes. I think that's very important, Senator. I know
    when I was growing up, my dad worked side by side with his
    employees. So as we talked about on the training side, I think
    there are some investments that for small businesses, it's
    harder for them to make. So are there ways that we can serve
    multiple employers by meeting an industry's needs.
        I think there's also the issue of outreach and education
    that is really important for all businesses but especially for
    small businesses who may not have the same level of a legal
    department or an H.R. department. So we have really, in my time
    in leadership, focused on outreach to small businesses.
        I know during the pandemic we have tried to make sure that
    supports and assistance to businesses were targeted to small
    businesses who also might not have the capital, for example, to
    last through the crisis that this pandemic has created.
        I do think that we have to look at the real needs on the
    ground. As you mentioned, through my personal history I have a
    real sensitivity to that, and I do think it's very important
    for us to be thoughtful in our approach.
        One other thing to your earlier point, I think you're
    absolutely right that on the workforce side of things there's
    such an opportunity for collaboration between the Department of
    Labor and the Department of Education, and if confirmed I would
    be very excited to work with my counterpart at the Department
    of Education so that our education and labor priorities from a
    workforce perspective are aligned.
        Senator Braun. Do I have any time left?
        The Chair. No, you're 2 minutes over.
        Senator Braun. Okay. It seemed that way. Thank you.
        The Chair. Thank you so much.
        Senator Scott.
        Senator Scott. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Secretary Su, thank you for your willingness to serve in
    this very important role. I'm a person who comes from the small
    business sector as an employer. I remember growing up as a kid
    and earning less than the minimum wage and becoming an employer
    who understands the importance of paying more than the minimum
    wage.
        I look at the labor agenda from the President and yours in
    California, and it really is very concerning to me what the
    impact of the President's policies will be on small business
    owners, but more importantly small business employees and
    independent contractors.
        Having been an independent contractor myself for seven
    years of my professional life, I will say without any question
    some of the things I really enjoyed about being an independent
    contractor was the ability to have a flexible work schedule, to
    decide when I come in and when I go out. And one of the things
    that stands in the way of that is the ABC test in California.
    It seems like if you are a champion of small business and
    understand the importance of independent contractors, your
    position as a champion, not just an enforcer but a champion, a
    vocal champion of the ABC test, it is in stark contrast to what
    so many independent contractors wanted.
        If you apply that test nationally, as President Biden has
    said he is committed to doing, you would forcibly reclassify as
    many as half of all independent contractors, if not more, and
    jeopardize up to about 8.5 percent of our Nation's GDP. The ABC
    test would destroy many of these independent jobs and kill the
    flexibility and the autonomy for many of the rest of those
    jobs, in addition to hiking consumer prices, despite the fact
    that more than nine out of ten independent contractors say they
    actually like and prefer their status.
        Secretary Su, you've called California's ABC test law an
    important step to protect honest--I'm not sure what that
    means--businesses. Californians disagreed. They voted by a
    nearly 17-point margin last year to exclude base drivers from
    this new test, and lawmakers scrambled to include roughly 100
    carve-outs in the law.
        Have these developments caused you to rethink your
    outspoken support for the ABC test? And should we be concerned
    that you'll look to nationalize this very unpopular standard?
        Ms. Su. Senator Scott, I would say to your point about what
    did I mean by honest businesses, I'll talk about some of the
    businesses that I have actually met with, from barbers to
    janitorial contractors, for whom the misclassification in their
    industry creates an untenable situation for these small
    business owners to continue to compete because they are being
    undercut by another contractor who says, well, the janitors
    show up and they do the work at my direction, they clean these
    buildings overnight but they're required to provide all their
    own supplies, and I'm going to call them an independent
    contractor.
        I would also just note that I don't think that there is an
    inherent conflict between flexibility and worker protections. I
    think that there can be and often has been both, and we've
    certainly seen that through the pandemic. We've seen employers
    in large numbers move to more flexible work arrangements that,
    frankly, they didn't think possible. We've done that at the
    state level, so government, which is often slower to be
    flexible than the private sector, found that we could do that
    because we needed to do it.
        For me, what I'd be really interested in working with you
    on, if confirmed, is looking at how we think about flexibility
    innovation.
        Senator Scott. Thank you, ma'am, for your answer. I would
    certainly say government is slower at almost everything, by the
    way. I would agree with you there. I would also agree with you
    that the Federal employees did not face layoffs, whereas the
    private sector did, and one of the things that happens when we
    impose mandates on the private sector is that they lack the tax
    base to support their businesses. They actually have to run
    their businesses at a profit. So giving the employees of those
    businesses the type of flexibility that allows for them to pick
    and choose how they work, when the work is one of the reasons
    why nine out of ten of the independent contractors said, hey,
    wait, wait, wait, wait a second, I want to keep my status
    because it allows me to be autonomous. And having been that
    person, you can cherry-pick examples, but the truth of the
    matter is a simple truth, which is that if 90 percent of those
    folks in California disagree with your position, I can assure
    you that the Nation as a whole will see that ABC test as
    anathema to progress in our Nation as it relates to small
    businesses and, frankly, independent contractors, who want to
    divide their time any way they like.
        I see my time is already out, Madam Chair. I'm not sure if
    that 5-minute clock is really 5 minutes or if it's just 2
    minutes, but I wish we had more time. Hopefully we'll have a
    second round. Thank you so much, ma'am.
        The Chair. Thank you.
        Senator Tuberville.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Good morning.
        Ms. Su. Good morning.
        Senator Tuberville. You're almost done, Okay?
        I'm just going to go off the cuff here for a second. You're
    getting ready to tackle, if confirmed, one of the biggest jobs
    our Country is going to face, putting people back to work.
    While your new boss, the Secretary, is going to be running
    around the country taking pictures and signing autographs,
    you're going to be in charge of 15,000 people, making sure
    people have a job so they can eat and pay their rent for the
    first time.
        Organization is a key to success. You think you're ready
    for it?
        Ms. Su. I do, Senator. I would not have accepted the
    nomination if I did not think I was.
        Senator Tuberville. It's going to be hard. Each state is
    different, and you handled California, a huge state. Will you
    be able to handle the smaller states? Because you're going to
    have to make adjustments because of the size and the people and
    the ability to have people to work with in some of those
    smaller states because we're less funded.
        Ms. Su. Yes, Senator. In my other comments I talked about
    creating big tables where we invite and give everyone a chance
    to be heard. I really do believe in that philosophy in any
    role, as a manager, as a leader, as a government official. So I
    do believe that one of my strengths is listening and being
    willing and able to bring many people to a conversation. I do
    think that those are important traits in terms of understanding
    what I don't already know, and I know there's a lot in that
    area.
        Senator Tuberville. Would you promise, when confirmed and
    if confirmed, that you will work with workforce development
    across this country to get young kids ready to work? Most kids
    don't need to go to a four-year school. They need to go and
    learn how to use their hands, and we desperately need somebody
    in the Labor Department who will stress workforce development
    on kids who don't want to go to college but learn a skill, and
    I think that's going to be very important in the next 10 years
    after coming out of this pandemic.
        Ms. Su. I would absolutely do that, Senator, and look
    forward to working with you on it. It's certainly been part of
    my role in California, to work directly with the workforce
    system, including local workforce boards. I know from your
    state and others, as I mentioned earlier, there are innovations
    and effective programs in place that we should look to build on
    and expand and possibly model. States sharing stories would be
    really valuable.
        But absolutely, I think that everything that you've said
    there is important and would be a priority for me.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you very much.
        The Chair. Senator Burr.
        Senator Burr. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be brief.
        Secretary, the California legislature has just established
    a new program to provide $600 payments with state money to
    undocumented adults. My question is very simple: Do you think
    that money could be better spent on anti-fraud efforts that the
    unemployment insurance, as you have expressed it, needs?
        Ms. Su. I would say that the $600 program was meant, again,
    to meet the tremendous ongoing pandemic-induced needs of
    California families. I do not believe that the only or maybe
    even the best solution for the massive fraud issues that we've
    discussed here at some length is just monetary. I think that
    what we've seen--and I've said this already; I apologize for
    repeating myself--is the need to understand the full complexity
    of why the unemployment insurance system fell short of what we
    needed, why there was so much fraud. And, frankly, a lot of
    those changes have been made, Ranking Member Burr. I'm not
    going to say that----
        Senator Burr. I'm going to grant you that there was $20
    billion that you considered to be fraud that is non-
    traditional. But $10 billion was what you called a system that
    was broken. My question is--and you didn't elect to fix it
    while you were there. You were in the middle of a pandemic. Now
    California, the Governor just announced he's gotten $10.3
    billion more in revenue since he projected in January. This is
    mid-March. In 60 days they found $10.3 billion worth of
    revenue, and the first thing that they do is pass legislation
    to put a $600 check in the hands of undocumented adults.
        I'm not debating whether that's worthwhile. I'm asking
    where the priority is in California were you still in charge.
    Would you be fixing the system you just said was broken and
    that lost $10 billion, not the $20 billion, in fraud?
        Ms. Su. Well, Senator, again to be clear, the $10 billion
    of confirmed fraud was overwhelmingly also in that PUA program,
    right? The vulnerabilities and the ways that criminals
    exploited that program is--we have to----
        Senator Burr. Should California fix their UI program?
        Ms. Su. Absolutely we should fix our UI program.
        Senator Burr. And should that be a priority from the
    standpoint of funding?
        Ms. Su. Absolutely it is a priority. And again, I'm
    grateful to the American Rescue Plan for having provided some
    resources for states. But I guess my point is that I think that
    the problems also require thoughtful coordination, not just a
    monetary investment. But of course it's a priority.
        Senator Burr. We provided that money, $1.9 trillion, based
    upon what Governors told us their revenue shortfalls were. Yet
    all of a sudden, California's got $10 billion in new revenue
    that they weren't projecting, $10.3, in 60 days. They're flush
    with cash, but it doesn't seem like they're directing it to
    fixing a problem. They're directing it to payouts to
    individuals. My only point is if it's a priority--if it's not a
    priority in California, how can I expect it to be a priority of
    the Department of Labor?
        I thank the Madam Chair.
        The Chair. Thank you, Senator Burr.
        Secretary Su, the long overdue national discussion of
    systemic racism, as well as the Me Too movement, has increased
    awareness of the rampant harassment and discrimination that
    many workers face on the job because of their gender, race,
    sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, or religion.
        I introduced the BE HEARD in the Workplace Act to address
    harassment, including sexual assault in the workplace, and I
    hope working with Members of this Committee on both sides of
    the aisle we can make some progress on that issue, because
    building an inclusive economy in the midst of a global pandemic
    means taking into account the needs of all workers and removing
    barriers that too many people hold back.
        As Deputy Secretary of Labor, I expect you would use the
    authority of the DOL to respond to the impact the pandemic has
    had on women and workers of color, and to deal with the
    longstanding barriers that create unacceptable inequities in
    the workplace. Can you give us some examples of how you have
    approached those issues during your time as Secretary of Labor
    for California?
        Ms. Su. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I agree wholeheartedly
    with your premise. We have certainly seen during the pandemic
    that essential workers went to the workplace, put themselves at
    risk, and probably in many ways women were disproportionately
    affected both in terms of the industries that were most needed
    on the front lines, care work, health care, and also in jobs
    that were lost, that were devastated by the pandemic, like
    hospitality and leisure and retail.
        I think that we need to make sure that the programs that we
    develop in order to build back better pay special attention to
    the many ways that the pandemic has been particularly harmful
    to communities that were already facing inequities before we
    came in.
        One of the areas of work that I have engaged in in
    California is on pay equity. Before the pandemic I co-chaired a
    task force on pay equity in which we were charged with
    enforcing California's law, or implementation of the law, and
    we spent a couple of years working at a table of cross-sectors,
    with employers and H.R. professionals, employees and unions,
    academics, businesses of various sizes, to look at the tools
    that would be needed by both employers--how to conduct a pay
    audit, how to understand whether you have pay inequity in the
    workplace--and for employees, everything from understanding
    what you make to we realized through research that women
    actually demand less at the outset of a job when asked how much
    they needed to be paid, so providing some education and
    outreach.
        Then the last thing I'll say about that is that I do think
    that for women--we've seen this in the pandemic, but it was
    true before too--the challenges extend beyond work to adjacent
    issues, like child care, transportation. These things are also
    very important. I think those require collaboration and
    coordination with other agencies. And if confirmed, I would, as
    I did in California, work with my counterparts in other
    agencies to address them.
        The Chair. Well, thank you very much.
        That will end our hearing, and I want to thank my fellow
    Committee Members for their participation in today's hearing.
        Secretary Su, thank you for taking the time to answer our
    questions and speak about the challenges facing working
    families across our Nation. I look forward to working with you
    to tackle those challenges as soon as you are confirmed.
        For any Senators who wish to ask additional questions of
    the nominee, questions for the record will be due by Wednesday,
    March 17th at 5 p.m.
        The hearing record will remain open for 10 days for Members
    who wish to submit additional materials for the record.
        It is my intention to schedule a vote in Committee on
    Secretary Su's nomination as quickly as possible so she can
    begin the important task of helping to lead the Department of
    Labor.
        The meeting is now adjourned.

                              ADDITIONAL MATERIALS

                  statement from u.s. senator mazie k. hirono
         on the nomination of julie su to be deputy secretary of labor
        Thank you Chairman Murray, Ranking Member Burr, and Committee
    Members, I had planned to provide an introduction today to voice my
    strong support for an outstanding public servant and President Biden's
    nominee for Deputy Secretary of Labor, Julie Su, but I had to return to
    Hawaii for a family emergency. I appreciate my statement being entered
    into the record.

        The U.S. Department of Labor is an important Federal agency. But
    amidst a global pandemic that has left millions of Americans out of
    work, the Department's mission takes on outsized importance. The
    department needs leadership with deep experience, skill, and a track
    record of transforming government agencies to deliver on their mission,
    as well as an understanding of the unique challenges of this moment. As
    we are seeing with President Biden, leadership does make a difference
    and it is important that we support the president in putting together
    the team he needs at a critical time in our Nation's history.

        Julie Su is highly qualified and is a strong leader.

        As California's Secretary of Labor and Workforce Development,
    Secretary Su currently leads a state agency for the largest state in
    the country. When you add her experience as an attorney and a nonprofit
    executive, she brings a wide mix of management experience to the table.
    Secretary Su's work style is collaborative and fair. She creates a seat
    at the table for everyone--including workers, labor unions, employers,
    and the community. She listens first to understand all perspectives,
    including those that differ from her own. She builds diverse teams and
    then empowers them to do their best work. Perhaps Secretary Su's
    management and leadership style is best summed up in the words of her
    own staff at the agency she has led for more than seven years:

            ``We can all say that Ms. Su's leadership transformed the Labor
            Commissioner's office into a greater force for the public good
            than it ever was before. During Ms. Su's seven years as
            California Labor Commissioner, she remade the agency in ways
            that many would have thought impossible . . . She re-energized
            staff at all levels and led numerous groundbreaking
            initiatives, including the ``Wage Theft is a Crime'' campaign .
            . . She increased efficiency throughout the division and broke
            down departmental silos that had stifled effective
            collaboration and caused redundancy. She was legendary for
            having learned the names of every one of the more than 600
            staff within the Labor Commissioner's office, from secretarial
            support staff to investigators, deputies, and legal staff.''

        Beyond Secretary Su's management skills, she will also bring to the
    Department of Labor a deep and abiding dedication to public service
    that was forged during her childhood. She is the daughter of Chinese
    immigrants, and her immigrant background shaped Secretary Su personally
    and professionally. Her own experience has afforded her insight into
    how segments of our economy leave people behind or even exclude them
    from experiencing the benefits of economic growth and opportunities.
    Her professional career reflects this life lesson as she has
    established a long and distinguished record of fighting for worker
    rights and civil rights. From defending the rights of Thai garment
    workers to protecting low-wage workers against abuses, Secretary Su has
    worked tirelessly to help people and communities who might not
    otherwise have access to justice.

        This sense of fairness and the desire to fight injustice will be
    critical for the Department of Labor for the foreseeable future. We
    know the pandemic has disproportionately impacted women and minorities.
    Given her proven track record and commitment to worker and fair labor
    rights, I have every confidence that Secretary Su will protect all
    sectors of our workforce and will work to lift everyone from this
    pandemic.

        Moreover, her experience managing labor policy at the executive
    level for the State of the California over the last decade will enable
    Secretary Su to hit the ground running on day one of working for the
    Biden administration. In particular, through the COVID-19 pandemic,
    Secretary Su has dealt with the overwhelming demand for assistance from
    workers who are suffering or unemployed. She has helped her state
    combat the organized crime attacks and employment fraud that has
    affected all 50 states. And she has worked to address systemic
    shortcomings that bad actors have exploited during this pandemic.
    Despite these many challenges, Secretary Su has never lost sight of her
    ultimate goal and strove to provide millions of workers access to
    unemployment benefits and other assistance. In these economic times,
    Secretary Su's leadership skills and proven track record of experience
    and effectiveness are just what we need.

        Julie Su's nomination also proves something I believe deeply: That
    when you look for the most qualified person, you get diversity, and
    when you prioritize diversity, you get the most qualified people;
    people who reflect all of America and who are able to serve all of
    America. Secretary Su's nomination is supported by so many who see
    their stories--and the stories of the United States of America--
    reflected in hers. Secretary Su will be an outstanding Deputy Secretary
    of Labor and I am proud to support her nomination.
                                     ______

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        [Whereupon, at 12:16 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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