[Senate Hearing 117-411]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                                                        S. Hrg. 117-411

                  NOMINATIONS OF ROBERT L. SANTOS AND
                              ED GONZALEZ

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                              COMMITTEE ON
               HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS


       NOMINATION OF ROBERT L. SANTOS TO BE DIRECTOR, U.S. CENSUS
       BUREAU, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, AND ED GONZALEZ TO BE
   ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. 
                    DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY


                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 15, 2021
                               __________



        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov


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        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs




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        COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                   GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman

THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              RAND PAUL, Kentucky
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
ALEX PADILLA, California             MITT ROMNEY, Utah
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
                                     JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri

                   David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
                    Zachary I. Schram, Chief Counsel
                      Claudine J. Brenner, Counsel
                    Nitka Khani, Research Assistant
                Pamela Thiessen, Minority Staff Director
    Andrew Dockham, Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Staff Director
                   Renee T. Sheehy, Minority Detailee
       Jeremy H. Hayes, Minority Senior Professional Staff Member
                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                     Thomas J. Spino, Hearing Clerk






                            C O N T E N T S

                                 ------                                
Opening statements:
                                                                   Page
    Senator Peters...............................................     1
    Senator Portman..............................................     6
    Senator Johnson..............................................    12
    Senator Hawley...............................................    14
    Senator Carper...............................................    17
    Senator Hassan...............................................    23
    Senator Rosen................................................    25
    Senator Scott................................................    27
    Senator Padilla..............................................    29
    Senator Lankford.............................................    32
Prepared statements:
    Senator Peters...............................................    37
    Senator Portman..............................................    39

                               WITNESSES
                        Thursday, July 15, 2021

Robert L. Santos to be Director, U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. 
  Department of Commerce
    Testimony....................................................     3
    Prepared statement...........................................    42
    Biographical and professional information....................    44
    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    59
    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................    63
    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    99
    Letters of support...........................................   112
Ed Gonzalez to be Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs 
  Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security
    Testimony....................................................     5
    Prepared statement...........................................   114
    Biographical and professional information....................   116
    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   139
    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   143
    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   165
    Letter of support............................................   185




 
            NOMINATIONS OF ROBERT L. SANTOS AND ED GONZALEZ

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, JULY 15, 2021

                                     U.S. Senate,  
                           Committee on Homeland Security  
                                  and Governmental Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., via 
Webex and in room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. 
Gary Peters, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Peters, Carper, Hassan, Sinema, Rosen, 
Padilla, Ossoff, Portman, Johnson, Lankford, Scott, and Hawley.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN PETERS\1\

    Chairman Peters. The Committee will come to order. Today we 
are considering two important nominations, Robert Santos to be 
Director of the United States Census Bureau (USCB) within the 
Department of Commerce, and Sheriff Ed Gonzalez, to be 
Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement 
(ICE), commonly referred to as the Director for ICE within the 
Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appear in the Appendix 
on page 37.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Welcome to both of you and to your family members joining 
us today, and congratulations on your nominations. Thank you 
for your willingness to take on these critical and incredibly 
important positions.
    The Census Bureau is the leading source of quality data 
about our nation's people and economy. The decennial census and 
the Bureau's surveys are critical for helping communities, 
businesses, and people across our nation ensure that they have 
the resources and information that they need in order to 
thrive.
    Mr. Santos, if confirmed, you will lead the Bureau as it 
completes the 2020 Census, plans for 2030, and administers the 
Bureau's critical demographic and economic surveys in a 
changing nation. I know that you understand the importance of 
the Census Bureau's mission and the challenges that it faces.
    As an expert in statistical research and survey design who 
has worked extensively with the Bureau, you know that 
stakeholders rely on the Census Bureau to produce data that is 
both reliable and accurate. You also know that transparency and 
accountability are essential for building and maintain trust in 
the Bureau and its data.
    I am looking forward to hearing more about your background 
and your vision for the Census Bureau.
    Sheriff Gonzales, if confirmed, you will lead an agency 
with a vast public safety mandate. In addition to immigration 
enforcement responsibilities, ICE contains the Department of 
Homeland Security principal investigate entity, Homeland 
Security Investigations (HSI), which is charged with 
investigating transnational criminal activity that threatens 
the safety of our communities all across the United States. 
ICE's law enforcement professionals combat narcotics, 
smuggling, terrorist networks, human trafficking, financial 
crimes, and other threats to public safety.
    As you know from your extensive law enforcement background, 
this is a vital and extraordinarily difficult task. ICE and its 
workforce face no shortage of both internal and external 
challenges.
    ICE has been without a Senate-confirmed director for 4\1/2\ 
years, and this absence of stable leadership has made it even 
more difficult for ICE to effectively carry out its mission. 
ICE urgently needs a qualified, committed leader who will 
tackle the agency's challenges head on.
    If confirmed, you will be responsible for rebuilding trust 
with ICE workforce, Congress, State, and local partners, as 
well as other stakeholders. This means supporting and improving 
what is working, but also recognizing and correcting what is 
not working.
    From our earlier conversation I know that you understand 
and are prepared for this very difficult work ahead, and I 
greatly appreciate your commitment to both accountability and 
transparency. I look forward to hearing more about your 
qualifications and plans to lead this critical agency.
    We will normally now turn it over to Senator Portman, who 
is my Ranking Member, but as we discussed before this hearing 
we have a lot of things happening simultaneous. We are all 
double-booked. Senator Portman is very engaged, I know, in some 
of the budget negotiations. He will be joining us shortly. When 
he arrives he will be making a statement, or putting one into 
the record.
    So now it is the practice of this Committee to swear in 
witnesses, so if you will please stand and raise our right 
hand.
    Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this 
Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you, God?
    Mr. Santos. I do.
    Mr. Gonzalez. I do.
    Chairman Peters. Please be seated.
    Our first nominee is Robert Santos, nominated to be the 
Director of U.S. Census Bureau within the Department of 
Commerce. Mr. Santos is currently the Vice President and Chief 
Methodologist at the Urban Institute. He is a nationally 
recognized expert in survey sampling and survey design, with 
over 40 years of experience in social science and policy 
research.
    After receiving his Bachelor of Arts (BA) in mathematics 
from Trinity University in San Antonio, and a Masters of Art 
(MA) in statistics from the University of Michigan--Go Blue--
Mr. Santos went on to hold several leadership roles, including 
Vice President of Statistics and Methodology at the University 
of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center; Director of 
Survey Operations at the University of Michigan; Survey 
Research Center and Partner and Executive Vice President at a 
Texas market research firm.
    Mr. Santos has also served as an expert advisor to the 
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Census 
Bureau. He currently serves as the elected President of the 
American Statistical Association (ASA), the leading 
professional organization for statisticians in the United 
States.
    Welcome, Mr. Santos. You may proceed with your opening 
remarks.

 TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. SANTOS\1\ TO BE DIRECTOR, U.S. CENSUS 
              BUREAU, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

    Mr. Santos. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can you hear me?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Santos appears in the Appendix on 
page 42.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chairman Peters. Yes.
    Mr. Santos. OK. Thank you very much. I would like to first 
introduce my wife, Adella, and my son, Emilio, who are here in 
support, and I just want to say thank you for this opportunity 
to give an opening statement. Thank you Committee Members, for 
those of you who are here, and I understand if you cannot be. I 
will begin.
    It is an honor and I am humbled to appear before you today 
as the nominee for Director of the Census Bureau. I would like 
to thank the President and Secretary Raimondo for the trust 
they have placed in me with this nomination.
    Born and raised in the barrios of my native San Antonio, I 
was fortunate to be in a Mexican-American family whose parents 
secured civil servant jobs at Kelly Air Force Base. I was 
privileged to be educated by the Irish nuns at Little Flower 
Elementary School, and I was taught to be a responsible adult 
by the Brothers at Holy Cross High School. The values instilled 
in me at these schools are foundational to my leadership.
    I am a member of a Gold Star family. My brother, Rene, died 
in Vietnam in 1969, when I was a high school freshman. His 
death furnished the Section F deferment that I did not seek, 
and a pain that endures to this day. With the sacrifice to our 
country, I was free to attend San Antonio College, Trinity 
University, and then the University of Michigan to follow my 
dual passions of statistics and helping people. Those 
opportunities that I had allowed me to believe that I should 
``pay it forward,'' and I try to do that every day of my life, 
and if confirmed, it will be time to serve my country.
    I would not be here today without the enduring support of 
my family. At age 18, I married my wife, Adella, and we have 
now been married 48 years. She is my most important source of 
support, counsel, and love. Our two children, Emilio and 
Clarisa, always support me and are constant sources of comfort 
and pride. My two granddaughters, 9-year-old Rene and 3-year-
old Layla, brighten my heart incessantly. My wife and I take 
great pride in having cared for them the last half of 2020, 
during the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, while 
my daughter finished nursing school in Arkansas and her 
husband, Chris, was deployed overseas with the U.S. Air Force 
(USAF).
    Now I am eager to serve as Census Bureau Director because I 
care deeply about this country and believe I can give back to a 
Nation that has given so much to me. I understand the 
importance of data quality and the Census Bureau's role in 
providing data that nurtures our democracy, informs our people, 
and promotes our great economy. You see, Census Bureau data 
help weave us together to form a more perfect union.
    Although this is political appointment, I am not a 
politician. I am a scientist, executive-level manager, a 
researcher, and long-time supporter of the Census Bureau. In a 
40-year career, I have held leadership positions in academic, 
nonprofit, and commercial research organizations. I have 
conducted research for most Federal agencies across many policy 
areas.
    I have held membership in scientific advisory committees, 
from the Census Bureau, to CDC, to National Academies, and 
others. I am the current President of the American Statistical 
Association, the world's largest association of statisticians. 
I was recently President of the American Association for Public 
Opinion Research (AAPOR). I have had the distinct honor of 
receiving the highest lifetime achievement awards from both 
organizations. I believe this body of work and recognition 
positions me well to lead the Bureau, if confirmed.
    The Census Bureau needs a Director who understands the 
critical role of providing quality data to our country. Society 
is in the midst of a technological renaissance, and the Census 
Bureau should leverage technological advances and innovate to 
create efficiency and effectiveness. If confirmed, I can set 
priorities and direction in this area.
    The Bureau also needs more transparency and independence to 
build public trust as it continues planning of the 2030 
decennial census, and completes delivering the 2020 census 
products. Career staff at Census Bureau need recognition for 
the exceptional scientists that they are. The Director must 
nurture a staff that has endured a tumultuous 2020. Finally, 
the Director should lines of communication with stakeholders 
and with Congress.
    In closing, I am incredibly grateful and humbled by the 
support I have received from the scientific community, my 
colleagues, my friends, and my family. If confirmed, I pledge 
to serve with humility, honor, and integrity.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Mr. Santos.
    Our next nominee is Sheriff Ed Gonzalez, nominated to be 
the Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement 
at the Department of Homeland Security, more commonly referred 
to as the Director of ICE. Mr. Gonzalez currently serves as the 
Sheriff of Harris County, Texas. It is the largest sheriff's 
office in the State of Texas and the third-largest nationally.
    He began his law enforcement career as a civilian employee 
in the Houston Police Department (HPD), where he later became a 
police officer and rose to the rank of sergeant. He served on 
the Elite Hostage Negotiation Team and was assigned to the 
Homicide Division as an investigator.
    After serving 18 years with the Houston Police Department, 
Sheriff Gonzalez retired in 2009, to serve three terms on the 
Houston City Council. He was elected by his peers in 2010, to 
serve as vice mayor pro tem, helping to manage the workforce of 
the city of Houston.
    As Sheriff of Harris County and as a City Council member, 
Gonzales has spearheaded innovative efforts to expand social 
services in order to reduce arrests, divert crime, and improve 
public safety.
    Welcome, Sheriff Gonzalez. You may proceed with your 
opening remarks.

   TESTIMONY OF ED GONZALES\1\ TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR 
    IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 
                       HOMELAND SECURITY

    Mr. Gonzalez. Chairman Peters, Ranking Member Portman, 
distinguished Members of the Committee, I am honored to appear 
before you to discuss my nomination to lead U.S. Immigration 
and Customs Enforcement. I want to thank President Biden for 
nominating me, Secretary Mayorkas for his confidence in me, and 
this Committee for considering my nomination.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Sheriff Gonzales appears in the 
Appendix on page 114.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I also want to express my love and gratitude to my parents, 
both hard-working children of immigrants. My father was a self-
taught welder. He never finished school or learned how to read 
or write. He made up for it by outworking his competition, and 
he raised me to value education and hard work as the keys to 
achieving the American dream. My mother owned a modest beauty 
salon, where she showed me the power of community, service to 
others, personal responsibility, and strong relationships. My 
parents taught me to love our country not only for the land of 
opportunity that it is today, but also for what it aspires to 
be.
    My wife, Dr. Melissa Gonzalez, is a lifelong educator and 
administrator in academia. Her love and support have been my 
foundation throughout my career, and together we have built a 
family that includes our smart, strong, and talented daughters.
    America has shown the world that it is not only possible to 
survive, but thrive, as a nation that welcomes those seeking a 
new home and a better life through hard, honest work. We have 
proven that people from varied backgrounds cannot just co-
exist, but rally around common values and a shared dream of 
always doing better.
    With that said, the American dream relies upon the rule of 
law and a functioning legal immigration system. I have been 
proud throughout my career as a law enforcement professional to 
uphold our nation's laws. If confirmed as ICE Director, I will 
be responsible for 20,000 dedicated men and women who work 
every day to guard against threats to our national security, 
public safety, and safeguard the integrity of our borders. This 
includes ICE's critical investigative mission through HSI, as 
well as enforcement and removal operations carried out by ICE 
Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO). Theirs is a difficult 
and often thankless job, but leading such a team would be the 
honor of a lifetime.
    I chose a law enforcement career because I cared deeply 
about the neighborhoods I grew up in--their people, the 
businesses, schools, and houses of worship. When you have such 
a love for your home, your community, and your country, you 
want to give back, and so I chose to protect and serve.
    I first started out as a patrolman in the Houston Police 
Department, working my way up to the roles of homicide 
detective and hostage negotiator over nearly two decades. In 
each of these two roles, I have been privileged to keep our 
community safe from harm.
    In 2009, I took my next step in public service. I ran for 
the Houston City Council and went on to serve three terms 
representing my neighborhood. I also served as Houston's mayor 
pro tem, a role that gave me the opportunity to help manage the 
operations of the country's fourth-largest city. I championed 
proposals to equip our peace officers with the tools, training, 
and resources they needed to keep the community safe, while 
working to improve social services to address the root causes 
of many police calls.
    In 2016, the people of Harris County elected me to serve as 
their Sheriff. The Harris County Sheriff's Office is the 
largest in Texas and the third-largest nationwide, with over 
5,000 employees protecting 4.5 million residents within a 
1,700-square-mile area. In that role, I have been no stranger 
to serious challenges, leading our agency's hurricane rescue 
operations in 2017, and leading our office's efforts to manage 
the COVID-19 pandemic in our community, and in our jail system, 
since 2020.
    As Sheriff, I have partnered with ICE, the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation (FBI), Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), 
U.S. Marshals Service, U.S. Attorney's Office, and other 
Federal agencies in order to investigate and prosecute crimes 
that spanned multiple jurisdictions and countries.
    If confirmed as ICE Director, I look forward to building on 
these partnerships to make our communities safer, while working 
closely with communities to ensure ICE is able to carry out its 
mission. If confirmed, I look forward to working with this 
Committee, under the direction of Secretary Mayorkas, in 
pursuit of these missions, while upholding the highest 
principles of law enforcement public service. I pledge to keep 
communication open and to respect your oversight and guidance.
    Thank you again for considering my nomination. I look 
forward to your questions.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Mr. Gonzalez.
    Ranking Member Portman, you are recognized for your opening 
remarks.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PORTMAN\1\

    Senator Portman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
Mr. Santos and Sheriff Gonzalez for your willingness to serve 
and for your statements today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Portman appears in the 
Appendix on page 39.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Census Bureau, Mr. Santos, as you know, provides a 
critically important service to the Nation, and you talked 
about that in your opening statement. Census data supports 
activities all around the country. Businesses and nonprofits 
use census data for planning. State and local governments use 
census data to make spending decisions. The Federal Government 
distributes more than a trillion dollars a year based on census 
data. So we have got it get it right.
    Then, of course, census data supports the redistricting 
process, which is an essential part of our Nation's democracy, 
and it is especially timely that the Census Bureau be more 
responsive with regard to this responsibility.
    The current delay in providing census data for 
redistricting has negative impacted a number of States in this 
country, and one of them is Ohio, that I represent. We are very 
concerned about that, because we are trying to move forward 
with the redistricting process but we need to have the data.
    I have been assured by the Census Bureau that they have now 
agreed to provide redistricting data to Ohio by August 16th. We 
cannot let that date slip. The Census Bureau must meet that 
deadline.
    Mr. Santos, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this 
as well as your views on the many other challenges facing the 
Census Bureau.
    Sheriff Gonzalez, you and I discussed yesterday the 
Director of ICE position is very important for a critical 
agency and deserves careful consideration by this Committee, 
which has oversight over the Department of Homeland Security.
    It is particularly important today, because by any measure 
we have the worst crisis at our Southern Border that we have 
had in at least two decades. The numbers are overwhelming. In 
May, more than 180,000 migrants were encountered at our 
Southern Border. June looks to be even higher, from the 
preliminary data that we have been able to hear about.
    The number of migrants apprehended at our border has risen 
every single month since President Biden took office, and we 
are told that more than 90 percent of those migrants are 
crossing unlawfully, and dangerously, often, between our Ports 
of Entry (POE).
    Border Patrol agents also estimate, but generally do not 
report monthly, the number of migrants who evaded apprehension. 
I think they refer to those people as those who ``got away.'' 
This is a conservative estimate that likely undercounts the 
true numbers.
    But we are now seeing record numbers of those not 
apprehended at the Southern Border, those who ``got away.'' In 
March and April of this year, the Border Patrol estimates 
70,000 migrants evaded apprehension by its agents. We do not 
know who these people are.
    I traveled to the Southern Border earlier this year. I was 
in El Paso, where I have been before, and I watched families 
who were enrolled in the Migrant Protection Protocol (MPP), as 
one example, the MPP program, and these were families who were 
in Mexico pending the adjudication of the asylum claim. Under 
the new administration, they were brought into the United 
States. I saw it. They were released into the country, and an 
ICE officer personally described to me what the parole process 
is like, that I witnessed in real time.
    Instead of giving these individuals a court date and 
saying, ``Your asylum claim is being adjudicated. You need to 
show up at court at this time, at this place,'' what they said 
was, ``We are giving them a piece of paper.'' I saw the piece 
of paper. The piece of paper simply had ICE offices listed on 
the back. I said, ``How do they know which ICE office to go 
to?'' And the answer was, ``We do not know where they are 
going, and we are not suggesting where they go, or certainly 
telling them where they go. They can go wherever they want in 
the United States, and we are just giving them these offices so 
that when they end up where they end up they will hopefully 
have an ICE office near them, that they can go to.''
    I was shocked, because I was told that people were given a 
court date and told to go to the court, but that is not what is 
happening.
    You and I talked about this, but I just think our system is 
broken, and we have to fix it. Otherwise, it will continue be a 
pull factor.
    I was just in Ecuador, which, by the way, sends more 
migrants to our border than Honduras now. I was in Guatemala, 
which, of course, is one of the three countries that has been 
traditionally sending the most women and children, 
unaccompanied kids, in particular--El Salvador, Guatemala, and 
Honduras. I heard the same thing, which is the leaders of this 
country do not want their young people going to the United 
States. They want them to stay there, and build the future of 
that country. They do not like the fact that we have a system 
in place that provides this pull, where if you get to the 
border and claim asylum, you are allowed, in the vast majority 
of cases--some say all, but let us say the vast majority of 
cases--to simply come into the country. If this is the 
protocol, where you say, ``You do not even have to show up for 
a court date, because we are not even giving you one. We are 
not even telling you where to go,'' I just do not understand 
how this system is going to work.
    In 2019, we had a surge, and it was largely unaccompanied 
kids, as you recall, because you were on the border and I know 
you understand this issue very well. But I am told that ICE has 
returned virtually none of those unaccompanied kids, none of 
them. They are all still here.
    It is no wonder that the coyotes can go and exploit that 
situation and charge these families the kind of money that we 
cannot even imagine, because, for them $10,000 is not just 
their whole life savings, its the mortgage on their house. It 
is everything they have. Then, unfortunately, many of these 
young people and families are abused on the way to the border. 
It is a dangerous situation, even short of the desert crossing 
that is often dangerous in and of itself, as you well know. It 
is a system that is not serving anybody well right now.
    I have very deep concerns about it, as you know.
    Anyway, I later check in with ICE to ask them, by the way, 
where the migrants had gone who I had watched go through this 
process, who were told to check in with ICE. And ICE was unable 
to tell me exactly how many migrants had checked in with ICE to 
receive a court date. We have asked for this information 
repeatedly and we have been told it is simply not available. So 
we do not know.
    As we all know, cooperation between our Federal, State, and 
local law enforcement is critically important to keep our 
nation safe. In 2017, Sheriff Gonzalez, you made a decision to 
end the department's voluntary compliance program with ICE. 
This voluntary compliance and the cooperation, known as the 
287(g) Program, has helped remove a lot of dangerous criminals 
from our communities. You have also stated that you still allow 
ICE to work inside the county jail, but you have spoken out 
forcefully against Texas law that mandated cooperation with 
ICE.
    I am concerned, as you know from our conversation, about 
whether it would be appropriate for you to lead an agency that 
you have been so critical. Even if the border crisis ended 
tomorrow, ICE is going to be dealing with the ramifications of 
this border crisis for many years to come. As you have noted to 
me, a lot of people are coming to this country on visa, and 
then overstaying their visas. It is not just about the border. 
It is about ICE's broader responsibilities.
    As I have said many times, we are a nation of immigrants 
and we are proud of that, and we welcome immigrants to this 
country in a legal, proper manner, and we should. We are a 
generous country, and we should be. But we also have to have 
immigration laws that are clear, enforceable, and allow people 
to come here legally, properly, and in a humane way.
    Our Committee looks forward to hearing from both of you, 
and thank you again for your willingness to serve.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Ranking Member Portman.
    There are three questions the Committee asks of every 
nominee. I am going to ask each of you to respond briefly with 
just a yes or no. We will start with Mr. Santos and then Mr. 
Gonzalez.
    First, is there anything you are aware of in your 
background that might present a conflict of interest with the 
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
    Mr. Santos. No.
    Mr. Gonzalez. No.
    Chairman Peters. Second, do you know of anything personal 
or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and 
honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to 
which you have been nominated?
    Mr. Santos. No.
    Mr. Gonzalez. No.
    Chairman Peters. Last, do you agree, without reservation, 
to comply with any request or summons to appear and testify 
before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are 
confirmed?
    Mr. Santos. Yes.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Chairman Peters. Great. Thank you.
    Sheriff Gonzalez, if confirmed, you will lead a workforce 
that has suffered from low morale for several years now. More 
than 20,000 men and women serve throughout ICE, including many 
who face incredibly dangerous situations as they work each and 
every day to keep us all safe.
    Could you briefly discuss your experience involved in 
improving the morale as to a law enforcement leader through 
your extensive career in that capacity, and how you plan to 
engage the ICE workforce, if confirmed?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have experience in 
working with large workforces, first in my role as a City 
Council member and Mayor pro tem, where working alongside the 
mayor we oversaw a workforce of more than 20,000 municipal 
employees in the city of Houston. Now, in my role as Harris 
County Sheriff, I work with 5,000 outstanding men and women 
that operate one of the largest jail systems in the country, as 
well as complex law enforcement operations, including a 
maritime unit, security in and around the port of Houston, as 
well as investigative functions as well.
    I have always tried to approach any role, coming in and 
working closely with the workforce. I think it is important to 
make sure that we are working collaboratively. I am an 
inclusive leader. I believe in two-way communication. At times 
we have been able to engage with our workforce to try to make 
sure that we are making some decisions that are popular with 
them, that may improve their work conditions.
    I care deeply for the team members that work with me. I 
commonly use that phrase, ``team member.'' I would use that 
experience, if confirmed to be ICE director, to come in, 
listen, to try to understand the work, understand what is 
working and where we can make things better. I am a big 
believer in continuous improvement, and the morale of the ICE 
workforce is critical to making sure we successfully accomplish 
its mission.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you. Mr. Santos, the Census Bureau 
and its workforce have faced many challenges, as you are well 
aware, in recent years, but particularly in 2020, including 
planning and executing for significant adjustments to the 
decennial census operations in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, 
but also as a result of attempted political influence in the 
census operations.
    If confirmed, how do you plan to engage with and support 
the Census Bureau's career workforce and ensure that its 
expertise that drives the Bureau's decisionmaking?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you for that question, Senator. I highly 
value the career staff at the Census Bureau. They represent 
some of the best scientists in the country, some of the best 
operations people. I understand the tumult that they underwent 
through operationalizing the 2020 census and respond to that. 
Many of them ended up working 7 days a week, possibly 80 hour 
weekdays. It has been harrowing, and these staff deserve to be 
recognized for the job that they did and rewarded for it.
    I believe that there are things that can be done to 
understand the depth of stress that they have undergone, 
through listening sessions, through other types of things, and 
then proceed to craft, with lessons learned from COVID, a 
better work environment for them.
    There are morale issues. We know that. Morale is a symptom. 
It is not the root cause of a problem. I would like to work 
with the census career staff and the staff themselves to 
understand what are the root causes of job satisfaction and job 
dissatisfaction. What can we do? There is typically the 
standard, oh, we can give bonuses and raises and such, and that 
is very good and that can be leveraged.
    But the benefit of those types of rewards really wears off 
quite quickly. It is more rewarding to provide individuals an 
opportunity to find an additional research path, or given COVID 
and the way that folks have learned how to actually work better 
at home, provide flexibility in terms of work at home, remote 
work, and things of that sort.
    I would have work with senior census career staff to avail 
ourselves of a variety of personnel tools, work with human 
resources (HR) to develop some packages and some approaches 
that, one, understand the root cause of moral issues, and 
second, find ways to support folks for the long term, so that 
they grow in their careers, they are satisfied, and they 
benefit the country, as we want them to.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you. Sheriff Gonzalez, as you know, 
ICE's law enforcement mission is extremely broad. The one 
critical piece of that is dealing with human trafficking. In 
fact, ICE's Homeland Security Investigations, is responsible 
for overseeing a wide effort within DHS to combat human 
trafficking.
    So my question to you is, can you tell us about your 
experience in this area and how you would approach HSI's work 
to combat human trafficking in this country?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, Chairman. I do have vast experience in 
investigating human trafficking matters, human trafficking 
crimes. First, obviously, as a patrolman and later as an 
investigator, working many of these complex investigations over 
the years, I have direct experience of how these cases, or 
these criminal networks operate, having arrested many 
throughout the years.
    In my role at City Council as Chair of the Public Safety 
and Homeland Security, I worked very closely with then-Mayor 
Annise Parker as we launched her first-ever office dealing with 
human trafficking, and we elected a wonderful leader, Minal 
Patel Davis, that is still in place today, to really help 
formulate a plan for the city of Houston that was very 
holistic, and really considered a lot of the interrelated 
factors. That has been a success, and that office remains 
today.
    Now, as Harris County Sheriff, we are often seen as a hub 
for human trafficking, so we put in place a lot of importance 
on this, making sure that we are working with the non-
governmental organization (NGO's), that we are working with 
other law enforcement partners, both local, State, and Federal 
as well, making sure that our enforcement action is not focused 
on the survivors but instead on those that seek to take 
advantage of others. And so we work very closely, also 
collaboratively as well. We work on task forces with both the 
local police department, which is HPD, as well as with our 
District Attorney's Office, with what is referred to as Project 
180.
    We work very closely in a number of different angles to be 
able to tackle this issue. We know it is very complex. These 
investigations take a long time. But we work very hard to try 
to dismantle this in our Houston area and region. We also work 
collaboratively, when we do have a major-scale event, for which 
Houston is known, to make sure that we are also raising 
awareness in our communities as well. We have also worked 
closely with hotel operators to make sure that we are educating 
and raising awareness of how many times individuals could be 
manipulated and what are some of the signs to see.
    We have led a very successful effort, and also commend the 
men and women of ICE, HSI, that have had great success in this 
area throughout the years, and I look forward to joining their 
efforts, learning what is being done, and how we can continue 
to advance their work, and use my experience to continue to see 
continuous improvement in the area of human trafficking, that 
is critically important, and we must put a stop to it.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Mr. Gonzalez. The chair 
recognizes Senator Johnson for your questions.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON

    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gonzalez, it 
is July 15th and we do not even know what the June apprehension 
numbers are from DHS, from U.S. Customs and Border Protection 
(CBP). It is a little disappointing. I believe DHS is utilizing 
Title 42, protecting our country from COVID and returning 
people immediately. But I do not have those numbers either. I 
do not think we have them for April, May, or June. This 
Committee is, to a certain extent, operating in the dark in 
terms of what is exactly happening.
    I think my first question for you--I asked this of 
Secretary Mayorkas; he has not honored his promise--but will 
you commit to this Committee to be transparent and get us this 
information on a timely basis?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Absolutely, Senator Johnson. You, in your 
role here, Congress and in your role here in this Committee, 
provides a very critical oversight. If confirmed, I will make 
sure that we are working in a timely manner, providing you with 
the necessary information. It is important for you to be able 
to----
    Senator Johnson. OK. I will hold you to that commitment.
    Now I think the next point is, I do not believe we have any 
idea where the people that are being processed and dispersed--
and let's face it, when the Administration says they are fixing 
this problem, all they are doing is they are getting more 
efficient at processing and dispersing people to all points in 
America. I do not think that anybody knows where they are 
going. As Senator Portman was talking about, they get a list of 
ICE offices, because they do not know where they are going.
    I think that is absurd. Do you agree with me, that we have 
no idea where these people are going?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, it is concerning to not have that 
information.
    Senator Johnson. Do you think States and cities ought to be 
told when an airplane-full, or a busload of people who have 
come to this country illegally and are being dispersed by DHS, 
do you think they ought to be told when they are getting a 
batch of these individuals?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I think coordination with local and State 
partners is very important. That is something I have experience 
with, and I think it is important to make sure we are 
communicating information with them, and sharing it.
    Senator Johnson. But we are not sharing that with any State 
and local government, are we?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I am not in the role yet, but----
    Senator Johnson. But when you were sheriff of Houston, did 
DHS tell you that, by the way, a busload is coming up from 
McAllen and we are going to terminate it and drop these people 
off in Houston? Were you ever told that?
    Mr. Gonzalez. No, sir.
    Senator Johnson. How much experience did you have in 
Houston with gang activity?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I have a great deal of experience. I have 
worked on gang murders before that had, obviously, a gang nexus 
as well currently we operate in a number of different avenues 
to combat gang crime in our community.
    Senator Johnson. Which were the prominent gangs in Houston 
that you dealt with?
    Mr. Gonzalez. We have some of the local ones, like Tango 
Blast, it is the Bloods, the Crips, Southwest Cholos, MS-13. We 
have a variety, just like many other jurisdictions.
    Senator Johnson. So under my chairmanship we held a hearing 
on MS-13, and it was chilling, to say the least, the brutality 
of that gang.
    When we are apprehending 6,000 people a day, overwhelming 
CBP, that is opening up corridors for drugs, for gang members, 
for very unsavory individuals to, the ``got-aways.'' There are 
6,000 apprehended, 1,000 known ``got-aways.'' We have no idea 
how many unknown ``got-aways.'' This is way more than a crisis, 
and it is continuing, by the way.
    What percent of the individuals do you believe are going to 
show up at an ICE office, having been dispersed with just the 
address of a few ICE--I mean, do you think a high percentage of 
the 6,000 people a day, if we hand them Title 42, they are 
going to be dispersed, do you think they will show up in an ICE 
office?
    Mr. Gonzalez. If confirmed, I would want to understand what 
criteria CBP is using, what information they are gathering. 
Ultimately, they make those decisions on a notice to appear 
(NTAs), in comparison to notice to report (NTRs). I would want 
to see what criteria and then what information is being 
utilized so we could work effectively, so that we can keep an 
eye on the security of our homeland.
    Senator Johnson. But again, we do not even know where they 
are going. We do not know where they are going. We have not 
given them a notice to appear. We are just giving them some--
let's face it. Very few, if any, are going to show up. So 
again, 6,000 people a day, no notice to appear, dispersed to 
all point in America, which we do not even know where they are 
going, and we are not providing any notice to State and local 
governments. That is what is happening.
    Let us talk about the unaccompanied children. I just talked 
about gangs earlier. What we do not talk about very often is 
the fact that when we talk about unaccompanied children, I 
certainly think 2-and 3-year-olds, right? We see all the 
pictures. The press always shows the pictures, at least during 
the last administration. But the fact is 70 percent of those 
unaccompanied children are 15, 16, or 17 years old. They are 
not 2 and 3 years old. That is a very small percentage.
    Another fact is that 70 percent of them are male. So having 
experience with gangs, would you not say a 15, 16, 17-year old 
immigrant male would certainly fit the profile of somebody who 
might be in a gang, or be recruited by a gang, or be used by 
the drug traffickers to traffic their drugs. Right? I mean, do 
not you find that, in law enforcement, it is a minor that is 
trafficking the drugs, because they do not get put way for 
dozens and dozens of years because they are a minor? Is not 
that the reality of the situation, with this flood? We are 
letting in people that are potentially gang members. We are 
letting in people that are going to be trafficking drugs, or 
human trafficking. Is not that your experience as Houston's 
sheriff?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I am always mindful of not profiling and 
developing these stereotypes in my work, so I try to look at 
the facts.
    Senator Johnson. That is no profiling.
    Mr. Gonzalez. But I am saying, at the end of the day, they 
are still teenagers. I know that they are coming into our 
country, they are processed through CBP, there are different 
screenings that are done, and at the end of the day they are 
still teens. I think that HSI is the preeminent law enforcement 
agency, when it comes to investigating how criminal networks 
are manipulating the immigration system to take advantage of 
these individuals. I think it is important that we use our 
resources to combat and dismantle those criminal networks.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Gonzalez, you are engaging in the same 
state of denial, denial of reality, that is happening under 
this Administration, the DHS, and Secretary Mayorkas. If you 
are denying the problem we have no chance of fixing it 
whatsoever. This is a crisis that is not being addressed. It is 
a tragedy for this Nation.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Johnson. The chair 
recognizes Senator Hawley for your questions.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY

    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 
Congratulations to both the nominees. Thank you for being here. 
Mr. Gonzalez, I would like to start with you, if I could, and I 
would like to start with a fundamental question that I have 
asked other nominees who appear before this committee.
    Do you believe that unauthorized entry at our borders 
should remain a crime?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, sir.
    Senator Hawley. Here is another fundamental question. 
Putting aside any resource constraints, whatever they may be, 
do you think that if an alien enters the country illegally they 
should be subject to removal from the United States?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. Do you believe that individuals who current 
have an order of removal should, in fact, be removed from the 
United States?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. If an illegal alien enters the country and 
is then convicted of a crime, do you believe they ought to be 
subject to removal?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. What about illegal aliens who have been 
convicted of things, let us say, assault, homicide, kidnapping, 
sex offenses, sexual assaults, weapons offenses? Do these 
illegal aliens, should they be removed from the United States?
    Mr. Gonzalez. In my opinion, yes.
    Senator Hawley. Good. I am glad to hear all of that. I am 
asking you because according to internal ICE documents that 
were released as part of a litigation ongoing between the 
States of Montana, Arizona, and the United States, the Biden 
administration's new limitations on enforcement could result in 
the release of convicted felons who are already in ICE custody, 
including 3,300 aliens who have committed assault crimes, 4,000 
who have committed drug crimes, and hundreds who have been 
convicted of sex crimes.
    Let me just ask you, if you are confirmed to this position, 
do you plan to facilitate the release of these criminal illegal 
aliens from ICE custody?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, in my view the current guidance that 
is being offered would make those a priority. I think those are 
public safety priorities, and so I would make sure that we are 
working in accordance with that guidance that does permit for 
the removal of those individuals as a public safety threat.
    Senator Hawley. What the documents show, I mean, again, 
according to this lawsuit, documents obtained as part of the 
lawsuit, is that under the current guidance these aliens who 
are currently in ICE custody could well be released. What you 
are telling me here today--I am asking you if you will 
facilitate the release. I think you are saying no to me, but I 
just want to be sure about it. Are you saying no, that you will 
not facilitate the release of aliens who have committed assault 
crimes, drug crimes, sex crimes? Is that a no?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Can you repeat the question?
    Senator Hawley. Yes. Will you facilitate the release of 
aliens who have committed sex crimes, assault crimes, other 
violent crimes?
    Mr. Gonzalez. If the premise of your question is that it is 
under some type of legal action that is taking place, I know 
that part of the guidance included that consideration that 
there is ongoing lawsuits and other things. I would work in 
accordance with the law with what I am allowed to do, and if 
there is a court order that orders me to remove them, 
otherwise, I would go with the guidance that we have, which 
allows me, if confirmed as ICE Director, to be able to remove 
them. I see them as a threat. If it is under my authority, I 
would move to remove them.
    Senator Hawley. So would you make it a priority? Let me ask 
it this way.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. Would you make it a priority to remove 
aliens who have been convicted of these crimes?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. To me those are serious crimes.
    Senator Hawley. OK. Would you agree with me that criminal 
illegal aliens who have, by definition, committed these crimes 
that we have been talking about, if they are released back into 
our communities, at least some of them are likely to be 
recidivists and to commit other crimes. I am sure you have seen 
this in your own experience as sheriff. Would you agree with 
that premise?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. Therefore it is important to remove them 
and actually make sure that they are not released to the 
public. Do you agree with that?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. Public safety is always my north star.
    Senator Hawley. OK. With regard to the Administration's 
recent decision to effectively end deportation of those aliens 
who entered illegally prior to November 1, 2020, is not this 
just a free pass for those who have entered, who arrived here 
over 6 months ago? I mean, I do not understand this. Give me 
your view. This sounds like a free pass to me. Is this not just 
a free pass for anybody who came before November 2020?
    Mr. Gonzalez. The ones that came before, in my 
understanding of the guidance that has been offered, does not 
preclude anyone that is here unlawfully to not be still 
removed. I think that that is still there. I think it is just a 
matter of prioritizing key areas, and I think that it does not 
preclude anyone that is here unlawfully from being removed, in 
my opinion.
    Senator Hawley. OK, good. I think you are telling me that 
you would attempt to enforce the law and remove those who came 
to this country illegally, in violation of our laws, before 
November 1, 2020. Is that correct?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Part of the role of ICE is to conduct 
enforcement operations. I think that those obviously have to be 
prioritized when we are considering limited operations and 
resources. We do that every day. There are a lot of crimes on 
the books, but it is a matter of tradeoffs. It is making sure 
that we are focusing on a strategic approach that goes after 
those individuals that do pose the greatest danger to the 
integrity of our border, public safety, and national security.
    Senator Hawley. But here is my problem with the discussion 
about priorities. Since this Administration has come to office, 
the number of ICE arrests has plunged. It has plunged. The 
Trump administration I think arrested over 6,000 people--6,000 
arrests per month, on average. In the final months of the last 
presidency there were 10,000 a month before the pandemic. This 
is according to the Washington Post, by the way, so these are 
public numbers.
    In this Administration, ICE officers have made about 2,500 
arrests during the Biden presidency. Now that is a dramatic 
drop in difference. It sounds to me like what is being 
prioritized is not the husbanding of resources. What is being 
prioritized is not arresting criminals, and not arresting 
people who are here illegally.
    What I would like to get from you is a commitment that you 
will vigorously enforce our laws that are on the books and will 
make ICE's mission to do so a priority. Can you give me that 
commitment?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, sir. I am familiar with the article. To 
me, the one data point, in my experience I would like to see 
more data to see what other factors may have played into that, 
to better understand the numbers. It is concerning. I would 
make sure, then again, that if we are being strategic and we 
are prioritizing properly, that we could go after those 
individuals that pose the greatest threat to our communities. I 
think that is reasonable and appropriate. But we would be 
aggressive in going after them.
    Senator Hawley. Let me ask you this. Do you agree with 
ICE's current policy of requiring ICE officers to receive 
preapproval from senior leadership before they make a lawful 
arrest?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I think that under the priorities that are 
listed, they do not require any kind of approvals. I think it 
is laid out that they could still use their own discretion on 
those, and others. It does not preclude them from taking 
action, but they would have to work in concert with the 
regional directors, the field directors, to make sure that it 
falls in accordance with the priorities and that they have 
looked at other criteria.
    Senator Hawley. With due respect, I mean, working in 
coordination with before you take action sounds like 
preapproval to me. Do deputies in the Harris County Sheriff's 
Office need preapproval from you before making lawful arrests?
    Mr. Gonzalez. No, sir.
    Senator Hawley. This is my last question, Mr. Chairman. 
This is just to give you an example here. It is my 
understanding that these restrictions on ICE enforcement 
removal operations, particularly the preapproval requirement, 
is having a significant impact in the field. I have learned 
that in one instance ICE officers requested permission to place 
a detainer on a subject who has been deported four times 
previously, has convictions of evading arrest, escape, domestic 
violence, and multiple driving under the influence (DUIs). This 
detainer request was denied by ICE senior leadership.
    This seems crazy to me. The whole procedure seems crazy to 
me. Does this seem like a reasonable way to proceed to you?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, in my opinion, hearing that it does 
not seem reasonable. If confirmed, I would want to understand 
better about that case and to understand why the local field 
directors made the decision to perhaps not pursue enforcement 
action. I would like to better understand, and I understand 
your concern.
    Senator Hawley. I appreciate that I am over my time. I will 
just say in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that--I appreciate your 
answers, Sheriff. I think they do put you in a significant 
tension with this Administration's policies. I am personally 
fine with that. I hope that you will go and enforce the law 
vigorously. I do not know what the White House will think of 
your answers, but I am heartened by what I have heard so far. I 
will probably have some additional questions for you for the 
record.
    Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Hawley. The chair 
recognizes Senator Carper for your questions.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER

    Senator Carper. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Mr. 
Santos for his willingness to serve in the role of Director of 
the U.S. Census Bureau and for the willingness of Sheriff 
Gonzalez to serve as the head of ICE.
    I ask a lot of yes-or-no questions, gentlemen. I will ask 
about three of them of Sheriff Gonzalez today to start this 
off. If you will just basically give me a yes or no answer I 
would appreciate that.
    At the direction of Secretary Mayorkas, ICE is 
prioritizing, I think as you know, folks who pose a threat to 
our public safety for enforcement. Do these priorities take 
away from ICE's ability to arrest anyone who enters the country 
unlawfully? Just yes or no.
    Mr. Gonzalez. No.
    Senator Carper. All right. Second question. Do you believe 
that local jurisdictions should cooperate with ICE when it 
comes to apprehending criminals who pose a threat to our public 
safety or national security? Yes or no.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, sir.
    Senator Carper. Last, do you believe that ICE should be 
abolished?
    Mr. Gonzalez. No.
    Senator Carper. All right. You are three for three. Let me 
talk a little bit about root causes.
    As my colleagues in this Committee know, I am a big root 
cause guy. I believe that until the United States--the crime 
corruption, lack of economy opportunity drives folks in Central 
America and the Northern Triangle and other places. Unless we 
address those drivers to make the journey north, we are going 
to continue to see migrants arriving legally or illegally, 10 
years from now, 20 years from now, or 30 years from now.
    Sheriff Gonzalez, I am pleased to hear that you are also a 
root cause guy, just like me, and like a number of my 
colleagues I am also pleased to hear that you are a 
collaborator by nature, because the importance of collaboration 
cannot be overstated when it comes to advancing the mission of 
ICE, the agency. And lacking a Senate-confirmed director for 4 
years.
    That being said, if confirmed, how will you work with your 
DHS and law enforcement counterparts in addressing root causes 
relevant to the mission and work of agents at ICE?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate it. As you 
mentioned, I am a collaborator by nature. I have learned to 
expand coordination and collaboration in my roles, both on 
Houston City Council as mayor pro tem, working a diverse group 
of agencies, as well now as the Harris County Sheriff, both on 
the law enforcement side, where we are making sure that we are 
being strategic in our enforcement, that we are protecting our 
region from harm, as well as developing continuums of care when 
it comes to dealing with vulnerable populations that have been 
incarcerated, that are grappling with addiction, mental 
illness, and other things. I have been able to work very 
collaboratively with many to do that.
    I would work closely with the ICE workforce that has that 
experience and those relationships. I would make sure that I am 
working with our sister agencies to make sure that we are 
fulfilling the mission of protecting our homeland and 
maintaining the integrity of our border. I would make sure that 
we continue to work with those relationships. I do it now, 
working with HSI, with the U.S. Marshal's Office, the U.S. 
Attorney's Office, with ICE, with many others. I believe in 
coordination. I think it is important to fulfilling the mission 
of ICE, and I would be very committed to continuing that.
    Senator Carper. Good. Thanks so much. Let me change gears 
and ask a question of Mr. Santos, who has been nominated to be 
Census Director.
    Mr. Santos, I think it was in June 2021, the Government 
Accountability Office (GAO), published a report that found 
planned innovations implemented during the 2020 census helped 
the Census Bureau optimize operations and slow the trend of 
increasingly costly decennial counts.
    At the same time, the report made three recommendations for 
improving the way the Census Bureau tracks and measures the 
benefits and cost-savings attributable to specific innovation 
areas.
    Mr. Santos, can you please take a moment to share how you 
might work with GAO and their current Comptroller General, Gene 
Dodaro, to implement open recommendations and other lessons 
learned from the 2020 census, as the Bureau begins to work for 
the 2030 count? Go right ahead.
    Mr. Santos. Thank you, Senator. I believe it is important 
to work with GAO. I believe they are an ally to the Census 
Bureau, in terms of informing them on cost efficiencies and 
other types of strategies that can be used in terms of creating 
a more effective and efficient census operation.
    I also believe that GAO represents one of a number of 
stakeholders that can and should be consulted in order to get 
their ideas, their innovations that they offer, in order to 
consider for the upcoming 2030 census. I understand, and I 
would feel, if confirmed, that as director there is an 
obligation to carefully consider and respond to GAO suggestions 
on innovation and other types of activities like this.
    I know that the Census Bureau has, as I have said before, 
an incredibly talented staff, career staff, and they have been 
working on innovations. I expect to, if confirmed, work with 
them to understand the direction that they are currently taking 
with regard to innovations, and the GAO response will be part 
of that.
    Senator Carper. OK. Great. Thanks very much for that 
response.
    A question back for Sheriff Gonzalez. This is with respect 
to leadership. I like to say that leadership is the single most 
important ingredient in the success of almost any kind of 
organization on our planet. It is absolutely critical in the 
Federal Government. Sheriff Gonzalez, would you take a moment 
to share with us how your nearly two decades of experience in 
law enforcement has prepared you to take on the role of ICE 
Director after years of vacancies at that agency?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. I am very proud of my 
background. I have worked extremely hard. I am a very hard 
worker. I have a strong work ethic. My heart is in the right 
place. I am effective, proven leader that has been able to 
effectively lead and manage large workforces. I have been able 
to dismantle drug and crime networks. I have personally worked 
complex investigations where I have had to go and tell a mother 
that their son or daughter was killed as a result of gun 
violence. I have led and oversaw our law enforcement response 
in our country to an unprecedented event with regards to 
Hurricane Harvey.
    I have been battle tested. I have been on the ground. I 
know how to lead at a high level and effectively lead a large 
workforce. I have also never forgotten the importance of those 
front-line team members who are out there doing the heavy 
lifting each day. I know how to lead. I know how to be 
effective. I am a good listener. I am good collaborator. I am a 
good steward of taxpayers' resources. I have done it 
effectively leading a large budget of over $570 million in my 
years as sheriff, and helping have a hand with the city's 
budget of nearly $5 billion as well.
    I am a proven and effective leader. I am battle tested. I 
know how to get done. I also understand when it comes to law 
enforcement that we could be firm on crime, we could be firm on 
enforcement, but we do not have to lose our compassion and 
humanity as well. I try to be a leader that approaches things 
from a thoughtful manner that looks for results.
    Senator Carper. Great comments. Thank you for those, and 
thanks again for your willingness to serve. Thank you.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Carper. Ranking Member 
Portman, you are recognized for your questions.
    Senator Portman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for 
allowing me to defer so some of my colleagues could get their 
questions in.
    Ohio, Mr. Santos, is working on redistricting, as you know. 
Incredibly important. I mean, there are people who are thinking 
of running for office but they do not know what the districts 
look like, because we cannot get the data from the Census 
Bureau. It has been a disaster in Ohio, and I am sure other 
States feel the same.
    We have a commission now, and that commission has a 
deadline of maps being due for the legislative districts, on 
September 1st, and then congressional districts maps, plans are 
due on September 30th. With no other options I supposed Ohio 
Attorney General Yost's lawsuit against the Census Bureau to 
get the data, because without the data we cannot draw the 
lines. Again, people do not know what districts to run in. 
Constituents do not know what district they are going to be in.
    The lawsuit ended up with the Bureau agreeing to provide 
this data by August 16th. Now remember, I said September 1st is 
the deadline, so August 16th is not much time to put together 
the plan, and that date cannot slip.
    Can I ask you today, if you are confirmed, will you commit 
today to ensuring that that deadline is met, that we have no 
further delay in getting the Census Bureau data?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you for that question, Senator. I very 
much sympathize with the concerns of the State of Ohio in 
advancing democracy with redistricting. I understand the 
urgency. I also understand the importance of having accurate 
information in order to make the critical decisions that drive 
our democracy.
    I also understand the timeliness. Timeliness is an element 
of data quality that has only relatively recently been 
recognized as something that is crucial, and that we need to 
take into account when we are developing data products.
    I am with you in terms of wanting to produce data by the 
dates that have been committed to. I have full confidence in 
the Census Bureau, the career staff, the excellent data 
processors----
    Senator Portman. Mr. Santos, let me cut to the chase if I 
could, with apologies for interrupting you. I agree with 
everything you said but I need a commitment. Will you commit to 
meeting the August 16th date? That is what I am asking. Yes or 
no?
    Mr. Santos. I will commit to trying to meet it as much as 
possible. I do not have the information right now to know where 
the Census Bureau is----
    Senator Portman. It is a court-ordered deadline, and if we 
do not have it we cannot do the redistricting. I wish you would 
just commit today to adhering to this deadline. I mean, that is 
the least, I think, that you should be able to do, as a nominee 
for a bureau that has not provided the data needed for us to, 
as you say, be sure our democracy can move forward, by having 
redistricting on a timely basis.
    Mr. Santos. I----
    Senator Portman. I am disappointed you cannot commit to it, 
but I will leave it there, unless you would like to commit to 
it.
    Mr. Santos. What I will----
    Senator Portman. August 16th. That is all I am asking.
    Mr. Santos. I am confident at the Census Bureau will 
produce it by August 16th.
    Senator Portman. But you will not make a commitment to 
getting it done.
    Mr. Santos. I do not have the information to make a 
commitment, and it would be irresponsible----
    Senator Portman. I have just given you the information, 
which is it is court-ordered, and the agreement is to do it on 
that date.
    Mr. Santos. That is absolutely correct and I totally 
understand that.
    Senator Portman. OK. Sheriff Gonzalez, as you know ICE has 
a longstanding principle to establish and maintain these 
partnerships with State and local law enforcement to bolster 
effectiveness in executing the ICE mission and our country's 
mission to ensure we are protected by ICE. One of these 
programs is called the 287(g) Program, which allows trained 
local law enforcement to partner with ICE, to cooperate in 
removing dangerous criminals from the United States.
    As Harris County Sheriff, why did you terminate the 287(g) 
agreement with ICE in 2017?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Ranking Member Portman. For me, I 
made a thoughtful decision. I considered a number of different 
factors. When I first began as County Sheriff I was inheriting 
a budget that was $8 million in arrears, so I had to look at 
the monetary component of how my resources were being utilized. 
I think an effective leader needs to look at their resource 
allocation.
    Too, that this was a voluntary program, so I was working in 
an amicable manner in coordination with the local ICE director, 
to making sure what the impacts of my decision would be. I had 
to consider, obviously, the local realities as well, and the 
importance of local law enforcement also working with a diverse 
immigrant community. I also wanted to make sure that we 
continue to remain focused on having the avenues necessary to 
arrest serious offenders in our community that impact our 
public safety.
    ICE has always maintained a presence, to this date, inside 
our facility. We work in a coordinated manner when it comes to 
that. There have never been any issues. I have never declined a 
detainer.
    Senator Portman. This concerns me on 287(g) Program. Would 
you, if confirmed, want to terminate the 287(g) Program? You do 
not think it works well? You did not want it in your own 
county? Would you want to terminate that program?
    Mr. Gonzalez. For me it was a local decision.
    Senator Portman. My question is would you want to terminate 
the program.
    Mr. Gonzalez. That would not be my intent.
    Senator Portman. You have made comments saying that you 
would like to terminate--you are proud to have terminated the 
agreement with ICE. You wish the Harris County Sheriff's Office 
did not have to cooperate with ICE as mandated by Texas law--
what you were talking about a minute ago. In response to a 
question about ICE officers being in Harris County Jail you 
said, ``ICE were there when I arrived. I ended the 287(g) 
program that I committed to do. We can get away from that.'' 
Then you said, ``I advocated against ICE before. I think it is 
unneeded and I think it is a bad law,'' with regard to the 
Texas law mandating cooperation with ICE. You said if ICE 
determined--if someone had previous history with it, then it is 
ICE's purview. ``I wish it was not like that, but it is.''
    You and I have talked about this, but I am concerned about 
a potential leader of ICE having these views about ICE, and 
what the effect would be on the moral of the individuals. Do 
you stand by those statements today, or do you wish that ICE, 
the organization you are seeking to lead, would receive 
cooperation from local law enforcement?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Ranking Member Portman, thank you for the 
question. I do want to add a little bit of context in regards 
to those comments. That was with regards to a State law, and I 
believe in local control, and that was being mandated by the 
State legislature as a mandate on local law enforcement. I felt 
that as an elected leader in my county I best understand the 
reality on the ground, my area of responsibility, and the 
experience of working with local communities.
    My perspective on that issue was based, or my comments were 
focused on the mandate, that it was being mandated by the State 
legislature on local law enforcement.
    Senator Portman. Sheriff, my time is expiring. I am going 
to leave you with one question. Please, if you would get back 
to me on the record. We do not have time, unfortunately, to get 
into this in detail. But the arrest records, I want to know 
what your view is on that. When the Executive Order (EO) was 
issued on Inauguration Day by President Biden saying no 
deportations for 100 days, no longer an emergency at the 
border, we saw a huge drop in ICE arrests. During the last 
administration, from October to January 2021, we had roughly 
24,000--and I talked to you about this--and then the February 
to May numbers we have are about 10,000. It is about a 58 
percent decrease with the same budget, in ICE arrests.
    If you can comment on that. Are you concerned about that 
dramatic decrease in ICE arrests following the Executive Order, 
coupled with, the worst half-year we have had in 20 years in 
terms of unlawful crossings at the border. I would appreciate a 
response in writing to that, if you do not mind.
    Again, I appreciate your past service, and for both of you, 
thank you for your willingness to step forward.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Ranking Member Portman.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Ranking Member Portman. Senator 
Hassan, you are recognized for your questions.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN

    Senator Hassan. Thank you so much, Chair Peters and Ranking 
Member Portman. Thank you both for this hearing. And to both of 
our nominees, thank you, and thank your families for your 
willingness to serve. This is a team effort and we appreciate 
you stepping forward very much.
    I have two questions for you, Sheriff, and then one 
question for you, Mr. Santos.
    To Sheriff Gonzalez, U.S. Immigration and Customs 
Enforcement manages three operational components, including 
Homeland Security Investigations. Homeland Security 
Investigations is a critical component of ICE, responsible for 
vetting immigrants as well as investigating transnational 
criminal and terrorist organizations (TCOs), cybercrimes, the 
online and international exploitation of children, human 
trafficking, and transnational drug crimes.
    If confirmed, how will you ensure that the Homeland 
Security Investigations' important missions, including its work 
fighting the substance misuse crisis, continues to be a 
priority?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. All of those issues are 
critically important. If confirmed, I would work very closely 
with the personnel that is in place to understand that threat 
landscape and get updates on where we are at, and then trying 
to see how we could best lead a strategic and targeted response 
to all of these different challenges that you mentioned. HSI is 
the preeminent law enforcement agency when it comes to being 
able to understand how cartels are utilizing the different 
migration paths, for example, and taking advantage of others. 
So want to see how we could dismantle those networks. That 
would be critically important.
    Then making sure that we are working with our partner 
agencies in an effective manner, to make sure that we are 
tackling all of these various issues, including the issues, as 
you mentioned, like fentanyl, which is a concern in Harris 
County for me.
    Senator Hassan. Yes. Thank you so much. The influx of 
fentanyl is a critical issue for the entire country, and we are 
seeing, as you know, a huge increase in overdose deaths, so I 
would look forward to working with you on that as well.
    Sheriff, I am going to follow up with something we talked 
about the other day. New Hampshire is home to a group of 
Indonesian immigrants who have lived in the United States for 
many years. Many came here fleeing from religious persecution. 
Many of them do not have Green Cards, some because they were 
given bad legal advice years ago. They are important members of 
our community at this point, people who have worked jobs, paid 
taxes, raised their families in New Hampshire.
    Under the Obama Administration, as long as these 
individuals checked in with ICE authorities regularly and did 
not commit any crimes they were not a priority for detention or 
removal, and they were provided work permits. However, the 
previous administration attempted to deport many members of the 
community.
    If confirmed, will you commit to looking into this issue 
and working with my office to protect this community?
    Mr. Gonzalez. If confirmed, I look forward to working with 
you, Senator, on that issue. I think it speaks, to some extent, 
about the importance of having a prioritized response--not 
every situation is the same--and that we need some guidance on 
this, and I think that that is where the prioritization and 
other factors that may be available. I would be more than happy 
to work with you on that.
    Senator Hassan. I appreciate that very much and I look 
forward to doing that.
    Mr. Santos. Each Congress the Government Accountability 
Office issues its high-risk list, which identifies and helps 
resolve weaknesses in critical Federal programs that are at 
particular risk for mismanagement or waste of taxpayer dollars. 
One of the critical programs highlight on this year's high-risk 
list is the decennial census, which provides, as we have all 
talked about, critical data to determine congressional 
representation and to inform the Federal Government about how 
best to allocate its resources.
    Despite the conclusion of the 2020 census just months ago, 
GAO already anticipates that the next decennial census will 
face management challenges such as meeting goals and deadlines, 
for testing new data collection technology, recruiting and 
dispatching thousands of census workers, and evaluating the 
accuracy of the collected data in a timely way.
    If confirmed, sir, how will you work to mitigate these 
management challenges?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you for that question, Senator. I will 
work with the Census Bureau staff who has been eagerly and 
earnestly planning the 2030 census. I understand but I have not 
been briefed on the plans of further incorporating technology, 
leveraging the lessons learned from the 2020, which was an 
extraordinary census in almost any sense of the word, because 
of the pandemic. The 2020 census was also the first fully 
digitized operation, there are a lot of quality indicators that 
can give clues about efficiencies that heretofore had not been 
available.
    It is critical to take a look at those, to analyze those, 
and incorporate that, and I can, in my role as Director, if 
confirmed, prioritize those particular areas of research so 
that we can reveal the nuggets of insights that allow us to 
create more effective operations.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you for that, and what I would look 
forward to doing is staying in communication about the 
challenges that have been identified, what you believe you can 
glean from this research and new data, so that we can improve 
management, but also an ongoing conversation with Congress so 
that we are preparing to have as effective and efficient next 
census as is possible.
    Mr. Santos. Thank you. I would very much like to do that. 
Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much. Mr. Chair, I yield the 
remainder of my time.
    Chairman Peters. Thank you, Senator Hassan. Senator Scott 
has agreed to temporarily postpone his questions so that 
Senator Rosen can ask her questions, who I know has another 
meeting to get to right away. Senator Rosen, you are 
recognized.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROSEN

    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Senator Scott. I really 
appreciate that. I owe you one there. Thank you, Chairman 
Peters, Ranking Member Portman. I also want to thank Sheriff 
Gonzalez and Mr. Santos for being here today. I really enjoyed 
speaking with both of you earlier this week.
    I know that Senator Peters brought this up but I want to 
build on this a little bit. Sheriff Gonzalez, of course I 
appreciated the chance to discuss how it has been increasingly 
challenging for ICE to recruit and retain qualified, 
responsible agents over the last few years. I know you agreed 
that it is important to maintain high standards for ICE 
personnel and screen recruits appropriately during the hiring 
process to reduce the chance of corruption and misconduct, of 
course, which have plagued the agency in the past.
    In Nevada last year, we saw a worst-case scenario when 
reporting revealed that a CoreCivic employee at the company's 
Southern Nevada Detention Center was actively--actively--
participating in a Neo-Nazi website, expressing interest in 
starting a white supremacist group as well. This is absolutely 
unacceptable, particularly for an agency that works 
disproportionately with the underrepresented minority and 
vulnerable undocumented communities.
    So going forward, how will you ensure that ICE properly 
screens for individuals who embrace white supremacy or, 
frankly, other dangerous ideologies, and what are your plans to 
conduct a human capital needs assessment to identify those 
needed improvements in both recruiting and retention?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. I think, obviously, 
maintaining a workforce that has the highest integrity is 
always critical to making sure that we are maintaining public 
trust. This is something that I work with on a regular basis, 
leading a backgrounds and recruiting operation within the 
Harris County Sheriff's Office, as well as my previous work 
when we were trying to attract talent to the city of Houston in 
my role on city government.
    This is something that we are always working. In fact, I 
met recently with my team to see how we could do better with 
our screening protocols, making sure that we are onboarding the 
right leaders into our agency. I know across the board 
nationally that many law enforcement agencies are also 
grappling with this, not only the initial onboarding but 
further check-ins throughout their career to make sure that 
things somehow are not getting, gone sideways in some way or no 
longer fit the mission of the agency when it comes to a team 
member's behavior.
    This is something that I would commit to understanding more 
and working with you to work with you through those concerns, 
if confirmed to be the Director.
    Senator Rosen. I appreciate that, and I want to move on, 
too, to talk a little bit about ICE's contracting practices, 
because last year we all heard about a frankly shocking, in the 
criminal medical procedures performed on women without their 
consent at the Irwin County Detention Center in Georgia, that 
LaSalle Corrections managed. I was relieved to hear earlier 
this year that the Irwin County Detention Center would be 
closing.
    Of course, we have heard similar serious complaint about 
the health and safety of detainees at other facilities owned 
and operated by private companies. If confirmed, what policy 
changes are you considering, or would you consider, regarding 
ICE's contracting practices, particularly with respect to the 
health and safety practices for our detainees?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. If confirmed, the health 
and safety of our facilities is paramount, not only for those 
that are under our care but also for our workforce as well. I 
understand the critical nature of it. I operate one of the 
largest jail systems. It comes with many challenges. I am quite 
attuned to those challenges and working with a team to work 
through those challenges.
    I also understand the complexity of working with a very 
detailed oversight body when it comes to the review and 
inspections of our jail facilities. I understand that under ICE 
they own and operate directly five facilities but there are 
other facilities where there are contracts in place. In total, 
ICE operates with, I believe, four different sets of standards, 
so it is very complex operating and overseeing a system that 
big.
    I would want to understand what oversight and safeguards 
are in place to make sure that there are certain standards that 
are being met. We had experience, or I had experience in this 
early on in times when we have had to outsource temporarily 
into other facilities, private facilities. It is a practice 
that generally I am not in favor of. We are currently not 
outsourcing any inmates in our facility.
    This is something that I would want to make sure, and that 
sometimes my concern with private facilities is understanding 
the oversight of that and making sure we are holding folks 
accountable to maintaining those high standards. This is an 
area of concern. I have heard stories of some of the inhumane 
treatment, and that would not be in alignment with the vision 
that I would have for ICE, if confirmed. I would commit to make 
sure that we are reviewing that very closely, Senator.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I want to quickly, in the minute 
I have left, to turn to Mr. Santos and talk a little bit about 
breaking down the language barriers. I mentioned before in this 
Committee I do applaud the Bureau for providing resources and 
materials in 59 non-English languages, but the census 
questionnaire itself was only available in 12 non-English 
languages. It excluded a large number of our South and 
Southeast Asian languages spoken by our Asian Americans Pacific 
Islanders (AAPI) communities, not just in Nevada but all across 
the country.
    My office has also heard that seniors and other 
underrepresented populations had trouble completing the census 
questionnaire due to a lack of broadband access and 
technological literacy, which was really a particular problem 
because we did experience postal delays last year, and, of 
course, there were a lot of fears around that as well.
    Mr. Santos, how are you going to address some of the 
broadband technological issues, the language issues? How do you 
intend to minimize those, if confirmed?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you for that question, Senator. I believe 
that all voices need to be heard when it comes to a decennial 
census, as well as the massive survey programs and data 
collection programs, which are the other part of the Census 
Bureau that folks do not often recognize, because they are 
incredibly important to our economy and understanding our 
people.
    In terms of getting to individuals of different language, 
it is important to tailor designs, to tailor approaches, to 
understand the situations that people are in. Often it is not 
enough to simply translate a form and pass it on. There are 
issues of cultural relevance. What is the reading level of the 
populations that we are going after?
    Ultimately, it demands research so that we can take the 
various populations, in the wonderfully diverse United States 
that we live in, and tailor different approach to different 
individuals to maximize their chance of participation. That 
includes not only translations, it includes outreach, it 
includes talking to stakeholders and getting their buy-in. It 
includes a whole variety, a large toolkit, that need to work 
together in order to create the strategies and practices and 
protocols that I will achieve.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I see my time has expired. I just 
want to be mindful of Senator Scott, who was kind enough to 
yield to me. So we will take the rest of the questions and 
answers off the record. I appreciate that.
    Thank you, Senator Scott. We will see you later.
    Senator Padilla [Presiding.] Thank you, Senator Rosen. 
Senator Scott.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SCOTT

    Senator Scott. Thank you. First off, congratulations both 
of you for your nominations and your willingness to serve. My 
questions are for you, Sheriff.
    Thank you for--I mean, law enforcement is very important, 
as we talked about yesterday. One thing we talked about 
yesterday, could you talk a little bit about the importance of 
enforcement law and complying with the law? We talked a little 
bit about something I have been surprised at, which I think you 
probably will be a little bit. At the Federal level--and I do 
not know if it happens at the county level, but people just 
decide what laws they are going to enforce and what laws they 
are not. Can you give me your thoughts on that?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes, sir. For me, I think it is important to 
respect the rule of law. It has been, obviously, my life's 
work, from all my adult service in law enforcement. It is 
something that to me is very fundamental. I know it is an 
important American ideal as well, just as our immigration 
system is as well, and I think it is one of America's great 
success stories, immigration.
    I think that it is also a paradox sometimes, because we 
also need to make sure we are maintaining the rule of law.
    Senator Scott. So you have probably talked a lot about the 
border today. When I think about the border I think about that 
little 14-year-old Nicaraguan boy that was left in the desert, 
and, he was asking for help. He was just left, I guess, to die. 
And you saw the two little Ecuadorian girls, 3 and 5 years old, 
they just dropped over the wall. You have kids and grandkids 
and your heart goes out to these people.
    So in your position as running ICE, is there anything that 
you will be able to do to try to make sure those things do not 
happen, because it is disgusting for these little kids. I mean, 
your heart goes out to them.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. Thank you, Senator. You are right. I 
think that it is important, in my opinion, to always lead in a 
humane and compassionate way. That is something that for me 
would be very important, that we look at the systems that ICE 
operates, whether it be enforcement or whatever interactions we 
may have, to operate again within the rule of law but also make 
sure that we are being respectful that there is an asylum 
system. To the extent where ICE can help deal with some of the 
backlogs as well I think would be very important. To the extent 
where I could help bring some of my perspective of working with 
local diverse communities, my Houston region is one of the most 
diverse in the country, making sure that we are implementing 
some semblance of looking at circumstances and being open to, 
like you said, the hardships that sometimes come with these 
situations as well.
    Senator Scott. There are all these stories that ICE 
employees are not allowed to enforce the law. Do you believe 
that is true, and what do you think about that?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I do not believe it is true. I would want to 
understand, if confirmed, how they are interpreting guidance. I 
think there is a lot of latitude at the field office, which I 
think is smart. I think that many of those decisions should be 
under the area of responsibility of local officials that better 
understand the threat landscape in the community that have 
those partnerships. I would want to understand, again, in my 
reviewing of the guidance that has been offered, I think that 
there is ample latitude for us to be effective and get the job 
done. It does not preclude anyone from being, obviously, the 
focus of enforcement if it meets the priority areas.
    Senator Scott. In all the different jobs you have had, have 
you ever had a situation where somebody you worked for told you 
not to enforce the law?
    Mr. Gonzalez. In my experience I have not.
    Senator Scott. How would you handle that, if somebody said, 
``Look, we know what the law is. We really do not like that, so 
we want you, in this new job, not to enforce it.'' How would 
you handle that?
    Mr. Gonzalez. I understand that it is concerning. I know 
that in the past there have been priorities that have been 
given to ICE, in the past, in previous ICE administrations as 
well. My understanding is at the time they were not universally 
popular. I think it is important to understand, within the 
confines of our work, limited resources, making sure that we 
are being effective in our enforcement.
    I would want to also understand the quality of arrests, 
make sure, though, that we are listening to the ICE workforce. 
It is my understanding that is what Secretary Mayorkas is doing 
now, is engaging with the ICE workforce and other sister 
agencies to make sure that he is getting a full understanding 
of concerns and other things, and I hope that that informs his 
thoughts on this matter.
    Senator Scott. So your background is law enforcement. How 
important is it for local law enforcement to work with ICE, and 
do you believe you are going to be able to create a 
relationship where law enforcement will want to work with ICE, 
going forward?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Absolutely. Yes, sir. I do see many 
possibilities. I think we could move forward in a positive 
direction. I have talked to many counterparts across the 
Nation. I think it is important to understand some of the 
successes and also where we could do better. If confirmed, I 
would want to see how we could be a better partner to fulfill 
the mission, and I believe in working in coordination. I do not 
think one agency can work alone. We have to depend on others. I 
think that is important that there always be a good 
coordination, especially with local law enforcement, for 
deconflicting purposes and other reasons as well, to maintain 
our public safety.
    Senator Scott. So assuming you get confirmed and you are 
there for 2 years, what would you define as success?
    Mr. Gonzalez. For me, if confirmed, I would welcome the 
opportunity and consider it an opportunity of a lifetime to be 
able to work with the men and women of ICE. I would like to see 
where we have become a strategic agency, a preeminent law 
enforcement agency that works effectively, that is prioritized, 
because I think that it is a reality of managing.
    I would want to make sure that we are looking at more 
expansive data sets. I have heard some data that is often 
given. But I would like to make sure that we are leading an 
effective agency that is an enforcement agency, that both 
respects the rule of law, that protects--my north star is 
always public safety. Did we keep our community safe when it 
comes to these issues? But too, did we create an agency that 
also engages with the community? Are we engaging with the 
community better?
    I think that the work of ICE can be hard to understand, and 
it is important for us to be engaging with the community. Those 
would be successes for me.
    Senator Scott. Thank you, Sheriff.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PADILLA

    Senator Padilla. Thank you. It is my opportunity now to ask 
some questions before calling up on the next Senator. My first 
is for Sheriff Gonzalez. Good morning.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Good morning.
    Senator Padilla. Under the Trump administration there were 
reports of ICE agents falsely claiming to be police and 
concealing their true identities to persuade community members 
to open their doors and allow agents into their homes without 
judicial warrants. This was found to be a violation of the 
Fourth Amendment in a class action lawsuit brought last spring 
in California.
    In addition, ICE has used unmarked vehicles to pull over 
people in areas heavily used by farm workers, for example, to 
increase the number of community arrests, even though they are 
not authorized to stop people in this manner.
    So Sheriff, as someone who has worked in local law 
enforcement, it is a great perspective to bring here. Do you 
believe ICE officers impersonating local police officers helps 
or harms public safety? As a follow-up question to that, what 
steps would you take, if confirmed, to ensure that ICE officers 
would not engage in such practices in the future?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator. First I would want, if 
confirmed, I would come in to understand what the current 
protocols are. Obviously, I believe you said there was some 
maybe legal action that was taken on this matter, so obviously, 
we would want to make sure we are working in accordance with 
the law.
    At the same time, I understand, from my experience, that 
sometimes we may have to take certain action, depending on the 
individuals that we are having to take action on, where it may 
merit a different, higher threshold in our response. But with 
that said, I think it always needs to be in the context of 
proportionality, to make sure that we are not unnecessarily 
scaring communities, with the presence, and that there are not 
other mitigating factors that we have to consider.
    It is important that ICE does not work in a manner that in 
any way intentionally just seeks to terrorize communities or 
anything of the sort. I think it is important for us to be a 
professional agency, that can take care, if it is done 
effectively. I want to make sure that the men and women of ICE 
that have to carry out these actions are safe, that the 
community is safe, and that we could do it in a lawful, orderly 
way as much as possible.
    Senator Padilla. I appreciate that, particularly as a 
follow-up to some of Senator Scott's questioning about the 
ability or ICE agents to enforce to law. Of course, but that is 
pretty broad. Again, as you can appreciate, the important 
perspective of local law enforcement has their specific role to 
play. Federal law enforcement, that is there to enforce Federal 
laws, has a different role to play. In unique circumstances, 
there is some collaboration that may be justifiable or in 
order. But by and large, it is a very unique mission. When 
Federal agents are, intentionally or otherwise, misrepresenting 
themselves as local law enforcement, I think that does 
undermine more broader efforts by local law enforcement to 
build trust and rapport with community members and community 
leaders. So that is something that, if confirmed, I look 
forward to working with you to address.
    My next questions are for Mr. Santos. Much of the attention 
on the Census Bureau's work is on the decennial census, 
especially this last year, given all the challenges to the 2020 
decennial census. What is less known is that the Census Bureau 
also conducts a number of other surveys, in between the 
decennial census, including the American Community Survey 
(ACS), That relies on sampling and data modeling in the years 
between the decennial censuses.
    The ACS does ask more detailed questions, more questions 
and more detailed questions, and new data is released every 
year on the changing demographics of the United States, 
including information about housing, income levels, marital 
status, educational attainment levels, and so much more. This 
information, coupled with the decennial census, is especially 
important for local communities and government when crafting 
policy, making investments, allocating resources and services.
    Mr. Santos, how can we ensure that the sampling is robust 
enough so that it accurately represents especially smaller 
population areas in the United States where there may be a 
higher need for investments in education, infrastructure, 
social safety programs, et cetera?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you very much for that question. The 
American Community Survey is a national treasure, because it 
really does allow us to understand who we are as a nation in 
our rich diversity and our situation. What basically, I guess, 
not too many people know this, but the American Community 
Survey used to be part of the decennial census, but a 
subsample, so it was captured once a year. My moving it over to 
a continuous survey, not only do we get through sampling the 
rich information that we were accustomed to under the decennial 
census model but we get a much more contemporaneously, we can 
track over time.
    As part of the statistical sample design of the American 
Community Survey, there are oversamples, there are deliberate 
overrepresentation of rural areas, of small town, et cetera, 
that are sprinkled throughout the decade, so that we can 
capture that information accurately and reflect it for the 
benefit of the public.
    Senator Padilla. Great. One other question. Over the past 
few years there has been significant debate about how the race 
and ethnicity question is phrased on the census. Many experts 
claim that those of Hispanic origin are not accurately being 
counted due to their mixed race status. The census currently 
asks if an individual is of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish 
origin. It then asks for the individual's race, which can be 
confusing to many Hispanics, who are often from mixed race and 
ethnic backgrounds.
    In 2015, the Census Bureau did its own test, using a 
combined race and ethnicity question. It found that more 
individuals identified as Hispanic. However, in order for this 
question to be put on the census, the Office of Management and 
Budget (OMB) would have to change their standard categories.
    Mr. Santos, you have written about this topic and discussed 
the need for data collection methods to evolve and adapt to 
ensure that everyone is fairly represented. Can you briefly--I 
know our time is up, but can you briefly tell us how you will 
work with OMB to try to establish a combined race and ethnic 
question for the 2030 census?
    Mr. Santos. Yes. I can fully commit to working with OMB on 
this, to the extent that it is possible to use a single race-
ethnicity question. I would be in favor of that. The Census 
Director does not have the authority to include any specific 
questions. It has to abide by OMB. But I can use my own 
personal perspective, as a Latino, and use my research 
experience and my leadership position to work with OMB to make 
sure that the proper attention is given to that specific issue 
so that we can see whether or not we can incorporate it into 
the next decennial, or even the American Community Survey.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. Senator Lankford.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD

    Senator Lankford. Thank you, Senator Padilla.
    Mr. Santos, let me ask you a quick question. I have talked 
for several years to the census leadership and they have said 
every year how hard it is to be able to connect with every 
American once every 10 years. I have reminded them there is an 
agency in the Federal Government that connects with almost 
every American every single year, and it is the Internal 
Revenue Service (IRS). The IRS gathers information in April 
every single year. The Census Bureau gathers information about 
Americans in April every 10 years.
    Can you help me understand why the two of them cannot work 
together once every 10 years, that on a tax form, that as you 
are submitting your tax information on that every-year time 
period, that the census information could not also be included, 
so when you turn in your taxes you also complete your census 
information?
    Mr. Santos. Thank you so much for that question, Senator, 
and I congratulate you on your long-term continuing efforts to 
create efficiencies, or to find efficiencies like this that we 
could----
    Senator Lankford. It is about an $8 billion difference, the 
best we can determine.
    Mr. Santos. Yes, absolutely, and I understand that. The 
good news is that the Census Bureau does cooperate with the IRS 
and even the U.S. Postal Service (USPS) on the conduct of the 
2020 census, and has leveraged information and resources from 
both of those.
    As far as your particular idea, I think it is worthy of 
consideration, and if confirmed, I can discuss with the Census 
Bureau----
    Senator Lankford. Right. Let us sit and visit on that, as a 
follow-up on it. Obviously, I know we are getting information 
to be able to clarify some addresses and other information and 
to fill information in. I am talking about completing your form 
so that we are not having to chase as many people down at this 
point, and to be able to make it simpler for the American 
people that they do not have two separate sets of information 
they need to complete, both from the Federal Government, both 
in April. It just makes sense to be able to put those two 
together. So let us definitely follow up.
    There are some legislative issues I am sure we will have to 
be able to clarify. Let us work on those together. If we do not 
plan for it now, we will have another $8 billion inefficiency 
10 years from now, that we can and should avoid on that. So 
thank you. I look forward to getting a chance to follow up on 
this.
    Sheriff Gonzalez, good to be able to see you again. Thanks 
for getting a chance to come by the office so we can get a 
chance to be able to visit. I know you have had multiple 
questions on this in the past. We also understand you are not 
currently at ICE, and we understand that. There are some 
policies that are currently happening at ICE that you are not 
responsible for, but you are walking into a situation. So let 
me ask a couple of questions.
    Have you visited with the National ICE Council, any of the 
leadership there, or will you commit to getting a chance to be 
able to sit and hear from them so you will get feedback from 
the field of what is occurring?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, I have not met with them. If I would 
look forward to working with them.
    Senator Lankford. Great. Obviously they can give you some 
face-to-face stories of what is actually happening in the field 
right now that I think would be very helpful.
    I am going to give you a situation and then tell you where 
our frustration is coming from. This is a story that came out. 
A person was arrested for sexual battery against a child. ICE 
officers requested permission of management to make an arrest 
but management denied the officers' request, even though this 
was sexual battery against a child.
    Second story. This was a person that had been deported two 
times previously. The person had a pending local charge for 
distribution of heroin, two counts of aggravated assault, 
endangerment of a child, endangerment of an elder adult, 
failure to stop at a command of police. The person appeared at 
a designated location with a quarter pound of heroin and 
attempted to sell to an undercover police officer, realized 
what was happening. He attempted to ram the police vehicle with 
his car and almost hit the undercover officer that he knew was 
an officer. That person had a woman and a baby in the back seat 
of their car during the heroin sale.
    ICE declined to lodge the detainer on that individual. As I 
have mentioned to you before, the current policy is they cannot 
make an arrest without reaching out to regional leadership. 
This was one of those situations where they requested to 
regional leadership and were denied the ability to make those 
arrests, in both of those--sexual battery against a child, 
assault on a police officer, and distribution of heroin.
    What do you think about those? I know you have not seen the 
full case on those, but those do not look hard and complicated 
to me why we should not put a detainer there or start the 
process.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, for me those fact patterns are 
concerning. To me, I can identify several serious public safety 
concerns. If confirmed, I would want to have more information 
on those particular cases and then also understand, from the 
local field directors, regional directors, on why those 
decisions were made not to pursue enforcement action. It seems 
to me that on those fact patterns that it would have been 
appropriate. I have not seen anything in the guidance that 
would preclude that from happening, but again, I would want to 
understand more specifics about what happened and why.
    Senator Lankford. Thank you for that. I would hope for 
that.
    In the past, ICE, when they have gone to be able to make an 
arrest of an individual, they were aware. It was a criminal 
alien who met the criteria there. When they arrived, if they 
happened to be with three other people, two other people, one 
other person that was not legally present in the United States, 
those individuals were also detained as well. Should that be 
continued as a policy or should it only be, literally, if you 
encounter four people that are in this place that are not 
legally present, you only actually detain the one person and 
the others you just ignore?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Senator, for me, again, I think it is a 
matter of prioritization. I think that with any agency that has 
limited resources, manpower, and other considerations, I think 
that it is appropriate to have priorities. I think we could 
always assess if those are effective. It does not preclude any 
of the others from still being potentially up for enforcement 
removal.
    But again, I think that I would trust that our personnel on 
the field could make those judgment decisions, look at the 
totality of circumstances, and see if it is a good use of 
resources, because it is a matter of tradeoff. If we are 
pursuing multiple individuals in the scenario that you gave, 
then there are others that perhaps we are not focusing on. I 
think that we should be strategic and smart in our enforcement.
    Senator Lankford. I understand. Last May, because we have 
not been able to get from ICE the statistics for June, we had 
6,000 ICE agents in the field and they did 3,000 deportations, 
in a month. It is a record low for them. So clearly they are 
not overworked at this point. In fact, the ICE agents that we 
interact with are pretty frustrated, saying that they are the 
ones being handcuffed currently, not able to actually do law 
enforcement, or they are being told by regional leadership, 
``No, that does not meet the standard. You need to stand 
down.'' Even though you know this person has multiple DUIs, 
sexual battery of a child, assault on a police officer, 
whatever it may be, they are requesting to be able to go and 
actually interdict, and they are being told no, they cannot do 
that.
    So the challenge is, obviously that sends a signal to 
people that are here that are not legally present that ICE is 
really not going to enforce the law. As you mentioned earlier 
in your testimony, if someone is not legally present here, they 
are not legally present here. This has been part of the 
challenge, to be able to say who do we actually engage?
    I am not asking to go pursue and to go door-to-door through 
neighborhoods. I am saying if an individual is found to not be 
legally present, they are a criminal alien that we are in 
pursuit of, and actually go interdict, they are also with 
another person that is clearly not legally present, do we 
ignore one and not pick up the other one, or then pick up the 
other one?
    Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. Again, Senator, I think that is 
important for us to be strategic and be thoughtful in our 
enforcement. I think it is important. I think at the end of the 
day just making arbitrary decisions like that, that everyone 
that is often referred to as collateral, poses a serious 
threat. I think we run the risk sometimes of perhaps taking 
someone that may be a business owner--and I am not saying that 
that precludes that they are hands off. But what I am saying, I 
think it is a matter of looking at the totality of 
circumstances.
    I just believe that a prioritized approach is reasonable.
    Senator Lankford. Sure. I understand a prioritized 
approach. I am not talking about, again, going and doing 
massive sweeps. I am trying to figure out where this is going. 
Because if, again, we know someone is not following the law and 
we ignore it, then we have a law that we are not applying at 
all, and obviously you know what that does. That leads to more 
criminal activity as you go, and trying to be able to figure 
out how to be able to interdict that in the future.
    OK, we will continue to be able to do follow-up. Thank you, 
Sheriff.
    Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Senator.
    Chairman Peters [Presiding.] Thank you, Senator Lankford.
    Mr. Santos, Mr. Gonzalez, again I would like to 
congratulate you on your nomination for these incredibly 
important positions, and also to thank you for your willingness 
to take on these roles. These are both challenging roles, and 
we expect the men and women who serve in this capacity to do 
work for the entire country, so we appreciate your willingness 
to do that.
    For the record, both nominees have made financial 
disclosure\1\ and provided responses to biographical and 
prehearing questions submitted by this committee.\2\ Without 
objection, this information will be made part of the hearing 
record, with the exception of the financial data, which is on 
file and available for public inspection in the Committee 
offices.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The information on Mr. Santos appear in the Appendix on page 
44.
    \2\ The information on Mr. Gonzalez appear in the Appendix on page 
116.
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    The hearing record will remain open until 12 p.m. tomorrow, 
July 16th, for the submission of statements and questions for 
the record. With that this hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:09 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

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