[Senate Hearing 117-125]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 117-125

HEARING ON THE NOMINATION OF MARTHA WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. 
      FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 17, 2021
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
  
             
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE   
46-454 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2022
        
        
        
        
               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont                 Virginia, 
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island         Ranking Member
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois            CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            RICHARD SHELBY, Alabama
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
ALEX PADILLA, California             ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
                                     DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
                                     JONI ERNST, Iowa
                                     LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina

             Mary Frances Repko, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director


                            C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                           NOVEMBER 17, 2021
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West 
  Virginia.......................................................    28

                                WITNESS

Williams, Martha, nominee to be Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife 
  Service........................................................     3
    Prepared statement...........................................     5
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Whitehouse.......................................     7
        Senator Kelly............................................     9
        Senator Capito...........................................    10
        Senator Inhofe...........................................    15
        Senator Lummis...........................................    21
        Senator Boozman..........................................    24
        Senator Wicker...........................................    25

 
HEARING ON THE NOMINATION OF MARTHA WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. 
      FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee, met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Whitehouse, 
Kelly, Padilla, Cramer, Lummis, Sullivan, and Ernst.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. I am pleased to call this hearing to order.
    We will be joined shortly by Senator Capito and other 
colleagues. There is a vote, I think, literally taking place, I 
believe, right now, and so some of the members will be voting 
and then coming here to join the hearing.
    I am happy to be here today to introduce and to welcome 
Martha Williams. I am the husband of a woman named Martha, so 
immediately, it is a good start there. Martha is President 
Biden's nominee to serve as the Director of the U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service. I think she has been joined by her daughter 
here today. I ask that you introduce her when you speak, and 
anyone else that you might like to introduce.
    Joni Ernst, good morning, Joni. How are you? OK.
    We thank you for joining us to discuss your vision that is 
important and the role that is important in order to field the 
questions from the members of our Committee.
    As our Nation's oldest Federal conservation agency, the 
Fish and Wildlife Service has the responsibility of enforcing 
our wildlife protection laws, restoring habitat, and preserving 
public lands for future generations. Those are tall orders. 
They are tall orders, especially given the current and future 
biodiversity challenges that we face in this country of ours.
    A recent report by the United Nations shows that nearly 1 
million species, nearly 1 million species may be pushed to the 
brink of extinction in the years ahead. They could face 
extinction, and somebody needs to do something about it. We are 
part of those somebodies who need to do something about it on 
this Committee.
    That alarming number is a dire warning for all of us to do 
our part to protect our planet and all of God's creations that 
inhabit this planet. The report also underscores the importance 
of having a dedicated, results driven leader at the Fish and 
Wildlife Service who brings people together to tackle these 
challenges.
    I am confident that Ms. Williams is that kind of leader. As 
the current Principal Deputy Director of the Service, she has a 
clear understanding of the inner workings of the agency, and 
her experience is not limited to working at the Federal level. 
Prior to her current role, she served as the Director of the 
Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks.
    For how long what that? Forever?
    Ms. Williams. A long time, Chairman Carper.
    Senator Carper. All right. Throughout her career, Ms. 
Williams has cultivated deep respect from those with whom she 
has worked on conservation efforts. That is probably why her 
nomination enjoys such broad support amongst the environmental 
and sportsmen communities, from Ducks Unlimited to the National 
Wildlife Federation, to Earthjustice. Many of our Nation's 
foremost conservationists, our hunters, our anglers, our 
wildlife enthusiasts strongly support her nomination for this 
role.
    Ms. Williams grew up on a farm and has spent her life and 
career fostering a love of the outdoors and a commitment to 
protecting our precious natural resources.
    Last month, I had the distinct pleasure of hosting her and 
her colleagues from the agency in Delaware as we toured one of 
our two national wildlife refuges, called Prime Hook, which is 
in the southern part of our State, just north of Lewes, 
Delaware, and joining her was Assistant Secretary Estenoz.
    We were delighted to host you that day.
    As she heard me say then, we are incredibly proud of our 
two national wildlife refuges in the First State, Prime Hook, 
which we visited, and Bombay Hook, which is just to the north 
of there.
    In addition to being home to threatened and endangered 
migratory bird species such as the red knot and the piping 
plover, our wildlife refuges attract thousands and thousands, 
tens of thousands of visitors each year from all over the 
world. These visitors drive a booming ecotourism industry in 
Delaware and other places, too.
    Unfortunately, these special places are also vulnerable to 
rising sea levels and worsening storms. In 2012, Superstorm 
Sandy hit the First State of Delaware and wreaked havoc on our 
coastal communities, including Prime Hook.
    Using relief funds provided by Congress, the Fish and 
Wildlife Service engaged in a large scale project to restore 
approximately 4,000 acres of tidal marsh. This restoration 
project benefited wildlife and the surrounding community. It 
was a real win-win.
    It is also an example of the Fish and Wildlife Service's 
successful conservation work to adapt to the escalating 
challenges of a changing climate while making our natural 
resources more resilient. I am eager, I think we are eager, to 
hear from Ms. Williams about how the Fish and Wildlife Service 
can build upon this extraordinary model. I would like to say, 
find out what works; do more of that. This worked.
    Ms. Williams will have no shortage of essential work ahead 
of her in this role, should she be confirmed. Our staff and I 
look forward to partnering with her on this important mission: 
Continuing this Committee's strong bipartisan track record of 
working together in a lot of ways, but especially on wildlife 
conservation issues.
    With that, let me turn it over to Ranking Member Senator 
Capito for her opening remarks.
    Senator Capito, which staff tells me she is voting, and I 
am sure she will be here soon, and at the appropriate time, we 
will hear her comments. I understand she will have a bunch of 
questions, as well.
    With that, Ms. Williams, you are recognized to let us hear 
your statement. Make sure your mic is on. We want to hear every 
word.

STATEMENT OF MARTHA WILLIAMS, NOMINEE TO BE DIRECTOR, U.S. FISH 
                      AND WILDLIFE SERVICE

    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper, and when other 
members arrive, Ranking Member Capito, and members of the 
Environment and Public Works Committee.
    My name is Martha Williams, and I have with me today my 
children, Kate and Ian, and I am joined virtually by my 
partner, Doug, my parents, my siblings, and family across the 
country. I am also joined in spirit by my late husband. It is 
an honor and a privilege to be here as President Biden's 
nominee for Director of the United States Fish and Wildlife 
Service.
    I believe that public service is one of our most important 
callings in this great Nation of ours, and if I am confirmed in 
this position, I look forward to serving the President, 
Secretary Haaland, the Fish and Wildlife Service employees, all 
of the American people, and the resources that we steward.
    I come from a family that has served our country and 
communities with courage. My father and uncle are Marines. My 
grandfather is in the Army; an uncle in the Air Force, my 
father-in-law and another uncle in the Navy. My father is also 
a civil engineer, a bridge builder, literally and figuratively, 
and he has been known to use his skills as a force in 
conserving working landscapes.
    My mother is infinitely capable and is a fierce leader in 
her own right, most importantly, as a teacher of nature. During 
my youth, we spent our time together cutting and baling hay on 
hot summer days, often racing to beat the rain. And on rare and 
special time off the farm, we ran barefoot on mossy paths in 
the Adirondacks, watched newts change colors, fished, swam, 
paddled, and hiked together.
    Growing up on a farm taught me the joy and the necessity of 
teamwork, how to work hard, and to appreciate nature and the 
natural resources that our great country is blessed with. 
Developing a life, family, and career in the West made me 
realize the importance of context and place, both defined by 
the need for autonomy and reliance on community.
    I have learned that the best way to build a team is to hold 
oneself to the highest standards, work side by side, sometimes 
literally mending fences, and sometimes just lending a hand or 
an ear.
    My life is steeped in conservation. It is what I think 
about. It is what I see, smell, hear, and dream about. I am a 
lifelong student of nature, the outdoors, fish and wildlife 
management, people management, and what it takes to solve 
seemingly intractable natural resource issues.
    I have worked on a number of these challenging issues, and 
from various perspectives, whether as a customer of the Fish 
and Wildlife Service, as the Director of the State of Montana's 
Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, in the legislature, in 
the judiciary, as legal counsel on issues before the Service, 
and as a teacher, making sure to impart on my students those 
skills they need to lead us all into the future.
    Using a scientific wildlife management and collaborative 
approach and always with others, I have tackled tough wildlife 
management issues head on. Sometimes, we have made only small 
yet durable steps forward. Other times, we have made great 
strides in habitat restoration and conservation: Bison 
restoration, predator recovery, cold and warm water fish 
recovery, tackled invasive species, supported law enforcement, 
wildlife movement, organizational and people management, and 
very importantly, the development of conservation leadership.
    Wildlife and natural resource conservation rests with all 
of us, from rural and remote communities to large, urban 
landscapes, private land, Tribal lands, and public land. It is 
a shared responsibility. We all play roles in this important 
American model, and it is with a strong commitment to 
collaborative conservation that we can achieve our collective 
goals.
    The Fish and Wildlife Service's role in conservation covers 
inspiring breadth, depth, and importance, with at least one 
national wildlife refuge in each State and territory, the 
Service can make access to nature available to every American. 
Its mission to steward migratory birds, wildlife, fish, and 
their habitats, and ultimately, the ecosystem functions for all 
Americans is critical to the well being of our economy, 
communities, and people. Each program and region within the 
Bureau contributes to this collaborative and multi-disciplinary 
effort to steward the health of the interconnected ecological 
processes that are so important, whether locally, nationally, 
or internationally.
    If confirmed as Director, I will apply two central tenets 
to leading the Fish and Wildlife Service to its conservation 
mission. The Service will adhere to its underpinning of 
scientific integrity, and it will work collaboratively, 
leveraging the expertise of our many partners, whether State, 
Tribal, or local governments, private landowners, 
organizations, or industry.
    It is truly is an extraordinary time for the Fish and 
Wildlife Service, when both the challenge and the opportunity 
to maintain healthy ecosystems and healthy populations of 
wildlife have never been greater. I make this promise that, if 
confirmed as the next Director, I will give it my all to serve 
with courage and excellence.
    Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member Capito, and 
members of the Committee, for your service and for your 
consideration. I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Williams follows:]
    
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    Senator Carper. Thank you for an excellent statement.
    Senator Capito has voted, and she has joined us now, and 
she is going to make her statement. Then we will get into some 
questions.
    Senator Capito.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Thank you, Chairman Carper. I am sorry I 
missed your opening statement. I know it was a barn burner.
    Senator Carper. I could give it again.
    Senator Capito. No, please don't give it again.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Capito. Welcome to the Committee. As you know, and 
you have been around here before, we have a lot of moving parts 
today, so we are so excited to have you in front of the 
Committee, and we really want to welcome Kate and Ian. I 
understand I missed their introductions, but I know you are 
very proud of your mom today, and I am really pleased that you 
were able to make the trip with her, so that is nice for you as 
well.
    So, good morning, and we are considering the nomination to 
lead the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service of Ms. Martha Williams.
    We had the opportunity, thank you for coming by my office 
last week. Was that just last week? The other week, I guess it 
was 2 weeks ago, and I look forward to hearing more about your 
work at the Service in this testimony today.
    I applaud the Service's expansion of hunting and fishing in 
the lands and waters that it manages, which was announced in 
April, and we spoke about that briefly. As you know, our 
sportsmen play a key role in our conservation efforts. I look 
forward to working together on more ways to expand outdoor 
recreation opportunities across the country, including in my 
own State, at the National Conservation Training Center in 
Shepherdstown, which is absolutely gorgeous, and also that the 
Canaan Valley National Wildlife Refuge, where we have a new 
fish and wildlife center that I worked on and have seen. It is 
a great educational and beautiful way to pay tribute to sort of 
a very unusual mountainous region of our State.
    As we discussed in our meeting, while I am encouraged by 
the efforts to expand hunting and outdoor recreation 
opportunities, I am concerned with the number of planned 
regulatory actions introduced or announced by the Service in 
this Administration. The impacts that those actions could have 
on landowners and the timely delivery of needed infrastructure 
packages are significant.
    Timely project construction is critical, another thing we 
talked about, in particular, as the Administration works to 
implement the bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act 
that the President signed, and the Chairman and I were lucky 
enough to be there right on the podium while he did that.
    We will not fully recognize the benefits of this law if 
permitting and environmental review processes bog down projects 
with delays and duplicative reviews. Make no mistake, this is 
not to shortcut any reviews that we would have; it is to 
shortcut the time that it takes these reviews to move forward.
    For example, the Service is currently taking public comment 
on an additional new potential permitting program for the 
incidental take of migratory birds. We talk about the need to 
streamline the existing permitting, but this action adds 
another layer of requirement. You referenced the importance of 
timely consultations and reviews, but I am not sure how another 
burdensome layer will achieve this goal.
    In addition to aggressive regulatory actions, I am 
disappointed about the Administration's lack of transparency, 
particularly on climate and environmental issues. Ms. Williams, 
I hope that we do not see this lack of concern for transparency 
occur under your leadership at Fish and Wildlife, and I will 
probably ask a question to that effect.
    We are continuing to see aggressive policies and actions 
from the White House. Despite the potentially wide ranging 
effects of these proposals, Administration leaders are hiding 
the ball from the American people, making it difficult for us 
to hold the Administration accountable.
    We should have more nominations from the President to 
consider today. Don't get me wrong; we are pleased to have you 
here, because this is a critical agency. I have raised this 
multiple times, but President Biden has not put forth a nominee 
to lead one of EPA's most significant offices, and that is the 
Office of Air and Radiation.
    In fact, yesterday marked the 300th day that Joe Goffman 
served as the acting leader of that office. To give that 
further context, 300 days is the maximum amount of time he can 
serve as an acting leader under the Federal Vacancies Act. 
Three hundred days, and still no nominee. This is the very 
office that is reportedly developing the growing number of 
costly and far reaching environmental regulations that 
President Biden and countless Administration officials and Mr. 
Goffman raised in Glasgow.
    President Biden has also not put forth a nominee to lead 
the Federal Highway Administration. Can you imagine us putting 
into effect the bill that was just signed into law without 
somebody leading a very critical agency? They will play an 
integral part in the implementation of the historic 
infrastructure act that we just passed.
    The agency responsible to oversee the safe use of our 
Nation's nuclear energy plants, the Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission, is currently working with just three commissioners, 
with two vacancies.
    Instead of ensuring transparency and accountability to the 
American public and Congress, the President has chosen to rely 
on his climate czars sitting in their offices in the White 
House. The Senators on both sides of this aisle are here to 
fulfill the institution's Constitutional role of advice and 
consent. It is time for the President to stop delaying and 
nominate individuals for these critical posts and to stop 
shielding the Administration's decisions.
    I thank you again. Thank you for letting me take the time 
to pop off a little bit on another issue. I would like to note 
as well that Senator Daines, who is our colleague from Montana 
who served with you, who has become very, very familiar with 
you through your service in Montana, wrote a very glowing 
reference to the rest of us in favor of your nomination. And 
that, I think, carries great weight. I congratulate you for 
securing that from a good friend of both of ours.
    I thank you for being here before us today, and with that, 
we will go to the questioning.
    Senator Carper. Would you like to enter that letter for the 
record?
    Senator Capito. Yes. I will enter the letter for the 
record.
    Senator Carper. All right, without objection.
    [The referenced material was not received at time of 
print.]
    Senator Carper. OK. We have three, I call them perfunctory, 
questions we ask of witnesses who have been nominated for 
different roles, but they are important questions. I am going 
to ask them at this time.
    The first of those is, do you agree, if confirmed, to 
appear before this Committee or designated members of this 
Committee and other appropriate committees of the Congress and 
provide information subject to appropriate and necessary 
security protections with respect to your responsibilities? Do 
you?
    Ms. Williams. I do, Chairman Carper.
    Senator Carper. Second question: Do you agree to ensure 
that testimony, briefings, documents, and electronic and other 
forms of communication of information are provided to this 
Committee and its staff and other appropriate committees in a 
timely manner? Do you?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, I do, Chairman Carper.
    Senator Carper. Thank you. My third question would be: Do 
you know of any matters which you may or may not have disclosed 
that might place you in a conflict of interest if you are 
confirmed?
    Ms. Williams. I do not.
    Senator Carper. All right, good. Thanks.
    Now we will proceed to numerous questions. I will lead that 
out. Tell us, in about 15 seconds, tell us about the farm that 
you grew up on. Just a little bit about the farm. What did you 
raise? What did you do?
    Ms. Williams. Chairman Carper, it is a working farm. My 
parents still live there and still work on the farm. We had a 
variety of crops that have changed over the years. Also, when I 
was growing up, we had dairy cows. We always had steers, 
chickens, a menagerie of animals that people would drop off, 
knowing that my mother and the farm would take care of them. We 
had horses. Right now, they are growing sorghum. We always had 
very award winning alfalfa at the State fair, and corn.
    Senator Carper. Sounds like a pretty good place to grow up.
    Ms. Williams. It is a pretty good place to grow up.
    Senator Carper. Have your kids ever been there?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, they have.
    Senator Carper. They are both nodding yes.
    Ms. Williams. Mr. Chairman, if I may, it is called Camp 
Granddaddy.
    Senator Carper. All right, a good name.
    All right, let me start off.
    First question I have is with respect to the Endangered 
Species Act, Conservation Without Conflict. The Endangered 
Species Act has worked quite well to conserve and recover 
species in our State. People travel to Delaware from around the 
world to observe our endangered species, specifically birds, 
such as the red knots and the piping plovers that I mentioned 
earlier.
    Last month, when we were in Delaware together, we learned 
about the Fish and Wildlife Service's impressive work to 
prevent new species from requiring Endangered Species Act 
protection, an initiative known as Conservation Without 
Conflict. The northeast Fish and Wildlife Service region is 
leading a collaborative effort between 10 States to conserve 
the salt marsh sparrow, a bird that is especially susceptible 
to the impacts of climate change.
    Question: Would you elaborate on the importance of the Fish 
and Wildlife Service leadership role in coordinating this 
effort and efforts like it, and would you share with our 
Committee how you intend to support the Conservation Without 
Conflict Initiative if you are confirmed?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I also want to 
thank you for the lovely visit to the special wildlife refuge 
in your State, and to see first hand some of these issues with 
you.
    Senator Carper. As I recall, it was a perfect day. We have 
a lot of those in Delaware and West Virginia, where I was 
privileged to be born, so I know first hand, but it was a great 
day.
    Ms. Williams. It was a perfect day, Mr. Chairman.
    I have a long experience with the Endangered Species Act 
and have thought about it often, so I come at the Endangered 
Species Act from a number of perspectives: As a customer, 
working for the State of Montana, as counsel to the U.S. Fish 
and Wildlife Service, as a teacher, and because I love the 
outdoors and nature, so I think about it often. I would answer 
that, as I said in my opening statement, we all share in this 
responsibility, and that it is a collective effort.
    So while the Fish and Wildlife Service plays a very 
important role in stewarding species once they are in the 
emergency room of the Endangered Species Act, we also play a 
critical role in supporting these partnerships to help prevent 
species from ever needing to be listed, and I think that that 
is where we do some of our most important work.
    There are many examples of that, and I am really proud of 
and happy to see that growing across the country, the various 
efforts, specifically Conservation Without Conflict. And I 
think that Conservation Without Conflict Coalition is 
extraordinary in a time, it is a product of our times. It, for 
example, represents 50 entities, and its focus, as I will, if 
confirmed, I will make sure that the Fish and Wildlife 
Service's focus is the same, is to be creative, and to be 
thinking in a coordinated effort, and as I said in my opening 
statement, to leverage on all these various expertises of all 
these different parties.
    So I think that there are many examples of where the 
Endangered Species Act has succeeded and not least of where it 
has encouraged these types of partnerships and has encouraged 
States, private landowners, Tribes, municipal governments, 
NGOs, industry, all working together.
    Another very good example, I think, is in the southeast, 
and I think of also the National Association of Forest Owners 
working on wildlife initiatives, where they are working across 
with many different partners, and really, as you do in this 
Committee, it is a bipartisan issue. It is not a partisan 
issue. It is one that touches all of us. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Thank you. I think I am going to hold and 
ask my next questions a little later. We will let the other 
members of the Committee go ahead and start.
    Just to telegraph my pitch, my colleague, the Senator from 
West Virginia, has mentioned the bipartisan infrastructure bill 
that the President just signed into law. I am going to be 
asking a question with respect to wildlife crossings when I 
have my next shot.
    I just want to say, again, to Senator Capito, to every 
member of this Committee, to our staffs, how proud that we were 
on Monday together there on the lawn in front of the White 
House. We were signing into law maybe one of the two most 
extraordinary infrastructure bills in the history of the 
country, and legislation that this Committee reported 
unanimously out with respect to roads, highways, bridges, 
surface transportation; with respect to water, drinking water, 
water sanitation; and provided, really, the foundation on which 
the bipartisan bill was built and signed into law.
    The President knows that, and we know that, and we are just 
very--I would just say to everybody that has been a part of 
that on this Committee, thank you again.
    Senator Capito.
    Senator Capito [presiding]. Thank you, thank you, Mr. 
Chairman. Thank you.
    I am going to go to the transparency issue. This is 
hopefully a short answer. Just to impress upon you, I think I 
did in my opening statement, how important transparency is, and 
I think the frustrations sometimes, and this happens on both 
sides of the aisle, whoever the President is, the opposite 
party. I think more information is better, and I think there is 
no reason to hide why decisions are made, so I am asking you to 
pledge an oral pledge of transparency and full open door policy 
so that we can have that give and take that I think is so 
critical.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, absolutely. I am very 
comfortable making that pledge and agree with you that 
transparency is so important in building trust in government 
and trust in what the Fish and Wildlife Service, how we deliver 
on our mission, so I look forward to working closely with you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you very much. I think I am going to 
go to a question on the Endangered Species. The Fish and 
Wildlife Service, I believe, under your leadership, has 
announced intentions to revisit Endangered Species Act language 
that references economic impacts. Do you believe that economic 
impacts should be considered when making an ESA listing or 
determination?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I would love to back up a 
little bit to and repeat that I think that the, and I shared 
with you on this, that the Endangered Species Act is a very 
important environmental law, and I am committed to ensuring 
that if confirmed, the Fish and Wildlife Service implements it 
in an effective way, where we achieve its goals and where we 
are being transparent.
    So, yes, this Administration is reviewing first off, under 
an Executive Order. We have reviewed a number of regulations 
that were promulgated under the previous Administration, and I 
think that is wise, to go through how those rules were 
promulgated, and do they make the most sense going forward. I 
promise to you that I think about this all the time too, to be 
very careful in swings of having regulation apply one way and 
then swinging hard another way.
    Instead, I think you will see with a number of regulations 
that we are thinking of build back better, if you will, and 
thinking of more durable long term solutions to prevent that 
swing back and forth. So, I recognize that the Endangered 
Species Act has economic impacts and is very important to you 
and your State, but I do think that the statute, at the same 
time, is very clear in when economic impacts should be part of 
a determination and when they shouldn't.
    Senator Capito. When are those times?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I should know, I don't have 
the statute in front of me. So I can't answer that right now.
    Senator Capito. Maybe we could get a clearer answer for the 
record.
    Ms. Williams. I would be happy to because I can just go to 
the statute.
    Senator Capito. OK, let's move on.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. In 2019, the Service repealed the so called 
Blanket 4(d) Rule for threatened species. The previous 
Administration cited the Obama administration's shift to more 
tailored rules to increase the State flexibility and encourage 
private landowners to recover species. But the Service recently 
announced its intention to undo this reform.
    How has your experience as a State wildlife official 
informed your view of the role of 4(d) rules and regulatory 
relief? You have obviously administered under both of these, a 
blanket one and a non-blanket one, for lack of a better word.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, thank you for that question. 
I want to thank you again for getting to visit with you a 
couple of weeks ago. It is hard to believe it has been a couple 
of weeks ago.
    I think that 4(d) rules can be very important in providing 
flexibility, especially for States. So I don't think they are 
always needed, but I think that they are a very important tool, 
that the Fish and Wildlife Service, if I am confirmed, will 
continue to use to the best advantage and flexibility for all 
involved, but also while adhering to the law and to the 
science.
    Senator Capito. Last, the work you have done, and you 
mentioned this in your opening statement and in your response 
to Chairman Carper, too, the importance of private landowners 
as partners in conservation. Could you expound on that a little 
bit?
    Ms. Williams. Yes. Thank you, Senator Capito. Many States 
have a large percentage of public lands, and more and more in 
the West. But at the same time, private land is critically 
important, and I don't want to use that term of art out of 
turn. Private land is very important to the conservation of 
species. For example, the American the Beautiful initiative, 
what I like about it is a focus on collaborative, locally led 
efforts to support conservation and to support working 
landscapes. So I think private landowners and private landowner 
partnerships play a very important role in conserving species.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Padilla.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Williams, thank you again for your testimony this 
morning, and for your years of public service and dedication to 
natural resource conservation. I certainly enjoyed our 
conversation yesterday and appreciated reviewing your written 
testimony, where you cover two central tenets for your work, 
ensuring the Fish and Wildlife Service adheres to scientific 
integrity as well as to work collaboratively with partners and 
stakeholders. These tenets will be especially important to your 
work, as we discussed yesterday, when it comes to California 
water issues and ecosystem preservation.
    California water is always a challenging topic. I know that 
many of my colleagues on this Committee, even those who are not 
from California, are familiar with how contentious water issues 
in California can be. We have to carefully balance the needs of 
many interests, including imperiled wildlife and fragile 
ecosystems as we plan to address present day challenges, let 
alone prepare for the future.
    So striking the right balance will require the personal 
involvement of the Director to coordinate with other Interior 
agencies, with NOAA, with the State of California, with Tribal 
governments, and many other very active, and might I say 
opinionated, stakeholders whose lives and livelihoods depend on 
water and a healthy environment.
    Ms. Williams, during our meeting yesterday, I was pleased 
to hear your commitment to visiting California and to 
personally engaging on these critical water issues if 
confirmed. So can you describe for me and the Committee, if 
confirmed, what your approach would be to working with the many 
stakeholders in California, not just on water, but on a number 
of issues?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Padilla. I, too, enjoyed 
the opportunity to visit with you yesterday, very much 
appreciate that. California water is an incredibly important 
issue, and yes, I do think that it would be helpful for me to 
go to California, to your State, and to be very closely engaged 
in the issues, that is too important to delegate completely. I 
have faith in our public servants and working with them on 
these issues. To date, I have very closely worked with the 
Bureau of Reclamation, with our sister agencies, with NOAA and 
NIMS, with the State of California, with Tribes.
    So I would agree with you that there are many partners, 
many voices, sometimes strong, understandably so. I think 
California water is one of the most challenging issues we do 
face. As you are, I am sure, painfully aware, this was a very 
difficult year in the face of the drought. So there is much 
work to do. We will never be able to let up on the gas on that 
work. It is very important.
    I look forward to engaging more. I look forward to 
visiting, and I look forward to hearing from people in person 
on their perspectives on these matters.
    Senator Padilla. And a comment, not necessarily a question, 
I just want to offer some thoughts. Your prior work experience 
and relationships are obviously helpful; your commitment to 
demonstrate willingness to collaborate and partner is 
necessary. But at the very foundation of it is building 
credibility, and building trust, especially on contentious 
issues. And the time we are living in, there is even too often 
a fundamental debate as to what is truth and the value of data 
and the significance of scientific contributions, those sorts 
of things.
    Again, my comment, feel free to respond if you would like.
    Ms. Williams. Yes, please, Senator Padilla. That is right. 
The scientific integrity with which we work, the U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service, is critical to building that credibility. If 
confirmed, I know that we will, as I said, place a continued 
import on scientific integrity.
    And yes, in my experience in working as Director of the 
Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, as vice president of the 
Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, working 
closely with the Directors of California, Oregon, other States, 
I look forward to continuing to build those partnerships. I 
think the Tribes are also very important in the water issue, as 
are irrigators, as are many.
    So I agree, building those relationships is important. I 
very much appreciate the question yesterday, and I think the 
challenge before all of us is how do we build credibility for 
government, and specifically for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 
Service. It is such a good question, and I think the world is 
changing quickly, that our traditional ways of reaching out 
aren't always enough. I think that goes to a question of 
Senator Capito's as well, that at the Fish and Wildlife 
Service, if I am confirmed, we will continue to be creative in 
how we reach out to people and how we stay engaged.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. I have no additional questions, 
just a closing comment. I also look forward to working with you 
on access to nature and wildlife, particularly for some of the 
more densely populated communities in California, particularly 
southern California. We know that national wildlife refuges 
offer tremendous opportunities. There are some existing that 
could use a little bit more support and enhancement. So I look 
forward to working with you on a number of fronts. Thank you.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Cramer.
    Senator Cramer. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Thank you, Ms. Williams, for being here. Thank you for our 
conversation yesterday. I apologize to Senator Lummis for 
holding you up and getting to her meeting late, but she was 
fine with it, as far as I know.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cramer. But thank you for that. I found it 
instructive.
    Of course, we spent a lot of time talking about what we're 
going to talk about now, and that is waterfall protection area 
easements, particularly pre-1976 easements that were signed by 
grandfather, great-grandfather of lots of landowners throughout 
North Dakota, with goodwill and good intention. But they have 
been very frustrated, as you know. I won't plow all that ground 
again; you and I have been through it.
    But I told you I would probably show a picture, and I 
brought it with me. You may have seen this picture before. This 
is a plot of land that has a WPA easement on it. It is a plot 
of land that I visited with your predecessor, Ms. Skipwith, 
last year. It is the same photo that I showed Ms. Estenoz at 
her confirmation hearing before I voted for her for 
confirmation as Assistant Secretary. And I show it to you now.
    This represents obviously a farmer's land with a WPA 
easement on it. I asked Ms. Estenoz, and I am going to ask you 
and maybe anybody else who wants to answer, what do you think 
is the wetland in this picture? By the way, you do not have to 
consult the hydrologist to answer this question. I am not one, 
and it is pretty obvious to me.
    Ms. Williams. Well, Senator Cramer, I think I could offer a 
very long answer. The importance of the prairie pothole region 
is so critically important to migratory birds, to hunters, and 
ducks throughout the world, really. So I would not offer to 
answer exactly what a wetland is in that question. This is the 
reason. Sometimes wetlands are ephemeral. Sometimes wetlands 
appear dry, and you don't see the surface water.
    What I would do is be happy to see it on the ground, look 
at the maps myself, and really learn about the specifics of 
this place, Senator Cramer.
    Senator Cramer. Would it surprise you that when great-
grandfather signed the easement for this plot of land and the 
acres in the land that were contracted to be wetlands, prior to 
1976, that the contract says lakes, ponds, and other types of 
wetlands? No? So since you don't know, put that back up really 
quickly, though. For those of you who aren't hydrologists or 
don't like long answers, this is water. This is water. It is 
always there, it is what you would call a lake. And this, 
probably a pond. Or maybe they are both ponds, or both lakes. 
There is no question that that is water.
    Now, bring up the other map. This is the Fish and Wildlife 
Service map of the easement, the modern map. Under your 
direction and predecessors, they have been modernizing the 
maps. The original maps were hand drawn in pencil and included 
lakes. This is the same plot of land.
    All of this, all of these little 5.4 acres, 4.2 acres, .4 
acres, .42 acres, .88 acres, .2 acres, these are all now 
wetlands in the easement. The lake up in the northeast is no 
longer a wetland. That is called bait and switch. That is what 
has--you just made a strong commitment to Senator Padilla that 
you are going to, you used the word continue several times, 
which is concerning to me, because I am not interested in 
continuing the same old thing. I am interested in doing it 
right and doing it a new way. That is recognizing that water is 
water, and dry land is dry land. And that contracts with 
landowners matter.
    You also just highlighted the importance of the prairie 
pothole region to ducks and migratory birds and all this. But 
you know who it is really, really important to? The farmer that 
owns it. The farmer that has been making a living on it. The 
farmer that has been growing food for a hungry world 
population, largely of other people. Largely of other people.
    The farmers on land like this have been so abused by the 
Federal Government that they no longer want to enter into these 
easements. They no longer want to voluntarily conserve. In 
fact, in my State of North Dakota, many farmers are being 
punished because they did this before the Fish and Wildlife 
Service came on.
    I just want to ask one simple question before it is over. 
Now, I have been through this with a secretary, an assistant 
secretary, two assistant secretaries now, a Fish and Wildlife 
Service Director, Administrator, and nothing has changed. 
Republicans, Democrats, moderates, conservatives, I don't know, 
maybe some liberals. I don't know. It doesn't matter to me.
    Nobody has done anything about this. You have been the 
acting director for some time. I want to know why I should 
support you. Because I supported all your predecessors. Now I 
want to know why I can call on you to do something different 
for the landowners as well as the critters that rely on good 
conservation practices.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, thank you for the question. I 
appreciated visiting with you on this issue.
    I understand, I completely understand that it is very 
important to you. It is very important to your constituents. I 
also recognize it is very important for people to know that 
they are being dealt with fairly in matters like this.
    So when you started the question, and when you were 
speaking, you talked about wanting to get this right. What I 
can commit is I, too, want to get this right. I think that you 
have given me a challenge that I am really looking forward to 
diving into and finding a more positive way forward.
    So I would like to commit to you to do that. I just 
recognize that this is very important for you and your State. 
And it is important for, as we talked about, it is important 
for the credibility of the Fish and Wildlife Service. And it is 
important for my relationship with you as well.
    Senator Cramer. All of those things are true. I am looking 
forward to that. I am hopeful for it. I am less optimistic each 
time this promise is made, and each time somebody comes and 
visits and each time nothing changes.
    I know you received a letter from a whole bunch of my 
landowners and ag groups earlier this year, much earlier this 
year in your acting capacity. I don't know if you read the 
letter or responded. But there hasn't been a change yet in a 
single appeal, including appeals that have gone all the way to 
the Director.
    Now, the one thing that I will say for this, then I will 
wrap up, is the new mapping and all of these veiled attempts to 
do the right thing, in my view, have led to a really good 
record, a really good record for the landowner and for the 
State. I am not a big fan of litigation, but we are getting 
really close to that being the only solution here.
    So I am hopeful that we can get it fixed before that. Thank 
you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Whitehouse.
    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Chairman.
    Welcome, Ms. Williams. Glad to have you here.
    Just two topics with you. On is whenever we have people 
here from the Department, I want to make sure that I raise the 
issue of oceans and coasts. I know very well that it is called 
the Department of the Interior, and too often that seems to be 
also its focus.
    We have spent years dealing with the Land and Water 
Conservation Fund, which I think is better described as the 
Upland and Freshwater Conservation Fund, because so much of the 
effort there goes to upland and freshwater projects, and not 
even to coastal States so much. But even in coastal States, to 
upland and freshwater projects in those coastal States.
    So I am just going to take this opportunity to remind you 
that America is a coastal nation, and we have a lot of coastal 
States. And they are at unprecedented risk as a result of 
fisheries moving about, because the oceans are warming, 
acidification doing damage to everything from coral reefs to 
the little critters like therapods that make up the base of the 
oceanic food chain. And of course, the ocean is more and more 
coming ashore in our States as a result of sea level rise and 
worsening storms. These are all the various prices of fossil 
fuel emissions and the resulting changes in our climate and 
oceans that those emissions have provoked.
    So I would love to hear you, I know you come from a square 
State and the Secretary also comes from an inland square State. 
We want to make sure that coastal America is not overlooked at 
the Department of Interior.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse. I want to 
start off with, I understand the importance of this issue and 
that oceans and coasts do face unprecedented challenges. While 
I have called a square State, a rectangle State, my home for a 
long time, I did grow up in Maryland.
    Senator Whitehouse. That is coastal. We will grant you 
that. On behalf of Senator Cardin, we will accept that.
    Ms. Williams. I very much appreciate the national treasure 
of the Chesapeake Bay.
    Senator Whitehouse. Which is almost as nice as Narragansett 
Bay.
    Ms. Williams. Yes. And I understand you come from the Ocean 
State, and it is very important, and it is to me, too. It is 
also--the Fish and Wildlife Service, if I am confirmed as 
Director, I will absolutely support those programs that are 
deeply engaged in coastal issues and oceans. I recognize the 
challenge with climate change, the need for coastal resiliency, 
the importance to communities. And I think of the example, 
Senator Whitehouse, of going to Prime Hook Wildlife Refuge with 
Chairman Carper and seeing what can be done in a coastal 
restoration project, and the many benefits that can provide.
    Senator Whitehouse. As you know, in Rhode Island, all of 
our wildlife refuges are coastal. In addition to those issues, 
there is one I would like to specifically direct your attention 
to, and that is that in the previous Administration, it seems 
that an edict came down from on high that was not very nuanced, 
let's say, about locations. That was, there will be increased 
hunting in the refuges.
    Well, our refuges aren't all that big. Some of them are a 
little bit over a mile in area, maybe. They have a lot of use, 
and they have nearby neighbors. So hunting in a small area with 
a lot of neighbors and a lot of use is a very different problem 
than it is in vast areas of wildlife refuge, where people can 
go in for literally days on a hunting trip. It has created a 
lot of unhappiness with neighbors, hikers, walkers. It did not 
seem that in the previous Administration it was very easy to 
get anybody's attention to this, that it was just, there shall 
be hunting, and we are not really interested in what the local 
conditions are.
    So I would urge your attention to continuing to work with 
us to find favorable local resolutions for these small and 
heavily used wildlife refuges in my State. If you will help me 
with that, that is what I want to hear.
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator, I look forward to working with 
you on that. I realize that place matters, and that we will 
always work with local communities and tailor our regulations 
to the locality. At the same time, hunting and fishing is very 
important in many areas as well, and is part of providing 
access to nature for many Americans. But I look forward to 
paying attention, Senator Whitehouse, and working with you on 
this.
    Senator Whitehouse. You are more likely to see a stroller 
than game in our wildlife refuges.
    Ms. Williams. Understood. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Lummis.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you, thank you, Madam Chair.
    Thank you for your time yesterday, Ms. Williams. It was 
nice to see you yesterday, and congratulations on your 
nomination.
    I am always happy to see someone who served in State 
government here in Washington, because I am of the opinion that 
the States are the great incubators of innovation. The best 
ideas tend to percolate up from the States.
    So my first question is about federalism. Do you support 
the States having the lead role in managing wildlife within 
their respective State borders?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, and again, I appreciated 
getting to visit with you yesterday. I always like talking to 
someone who comes at issues from the same place, coming from 
the West.
    So as the previous Director of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and 
Parks, and working from a State perspective, yes, I think that 
States play a critical role. As I said in my opening statement, 
wildlife conservation is a shared responsibility. This American 
model of ours is part of making sure we understand the 
different roles we play. The Fish and Wildlife Service steps in 
when species are in the emergency room and are listed as 
threatened or endangered.
    But the primary management of species that are not listed 
as threatened or endangered, or are not migratory birds, or are 
not covered by Federal law in another way, remain with the 
States, because States are on location. They understand the 
place; they understand the context.
    Senator Lummis. So you would agree that States play the 
lead role unless the ESA kicks in? Or the Migratory Bird Act?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, I would say that States play 
a lead role. But I would be careful to parse out the Migratory 
Bird Treaty Act, the Lacy Act.
    Senator Lummis. OK, if those Federal laws don't apply----
    Ms. Williams. Yes, then the States play the lead role.
    Senator Lummis. Then the States play the lead role. OK, 
thank you.
    Now, in Wyoming, as you know, we talked about yesterday our 
concern about grizzlies, they are way over objective. Do you 
support delisting the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem population 
of the grizzly bear?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, I appreciated visiting with 
you on grizzly bears. I support the long term recovery of 
grizzly bears and very much appreciate the efforts and the 
leadership that Wyoming, for example, has put into that.
    Senator Lummis. OK, so long term recovery. Well, it has 
been a long term recovery, and they are recovered. Every single 
objective criteria has been met. Then when the bar has been 
raised before, that objective has been met. And it has been 
raised again and that objective has been met.
    So do you intend to demand additional requirements, or 
raising the bar again in future delisting?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, if confirmed, I will make 
sure the Fish and Wildlife Service adheres to the law of the 
Endangered Species Act and the underlying science.
    Senator Lummis. So does the recent petition filed by an 
environmental group challenging grey wolf delisting have any 
bearing on grizzly bear delisting in the Greater Yellowstone 
ecosystem?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, I realize, thinking about the 
grizzly bear answer, what I didn't provide is the context of 
having chaired the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee, and 
having worked with the Governor of Montana to put together a 
grizzly bear advisory council. So I am steeped in predator 
conservation and understand the challenges of recovery and 
management of those species.
    I think there are some similarities for wolves and grizzly 
bears because they are predators. But otherwise, the Fish and 
Wildlife Service, if confirmed as Director, the Fish and 
Wildlife Service will certainly look at the science specific to 
the species.
    Senator Lummis. I think what I am hearing you say is that 
you are not willing, you are not willing.
    Ms. Williams. Senator, I am not willing?
    Senator Lummis. To consider delisting the grizzly bear in 
the Greater Yellowstone area.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, I apologize if I said that I 
am not willing to consider delisting the Greater Yellowstone 
population. What I----
    Senator Lummis. Do you believe all the science has been 
met? Do you know that all the science has been met?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, as you know, the Fish and 
Wildlife Service put out a species status assessment on this 
very question. While population numbers are robust in the 
Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, there are also elements when 
listing and delisting species, there are five criteria that the 
Fish and Wildlife Service must meet. The species status 
assessment noted, as a court has noted that there are still 
elements that we need to work through. I have talked to the 
Director, as you know, Director Nesvik, in Wyoming, and 
Montana, and Idaho on meeting the criteria of adequate 
regulatory mechanisms, on recalibration, and on genetic 
connectivity. That is what the court has repeatedly required.
    Senator Lummis. And none of those have----
    Senator Carper [presiding]. Senator, you are about a minute 
and a half over.
    Senator Lummis. I apologize.
    Senator Carper. We will recognize you again.
    Senator Kelly, thanks for joining us.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Williams, thank you for joining today and for your 
willingness to serve. I really appreciate that, and many 
Arizonans do as well.
    I want to begin by asking you about an ongoing challenge 
that communities throughout Arizona are facing from salt 
cedars. Salt cedars are an invasive plant species that deplete 
scarce water. They increase the risk of flooding and wildfires. 
About 6 months or so ago, I took a helicopter tour of the west 
valley, west of Phoenix, where the Salt River meets the Gila 
River. And the scale and the scope of the problem is rather 
disturbing. It is pretty enormous.
    Slowing the spread of salt cedars is a priority for Rio 
Reimagined, which is made up of local governments, business 
groups, and non-profits. While our local coalition has taken 
important steps to combat the spread of salt cedars, Federal 
support can help accelerate these efforts.
    Ms. Williams, what role do you believe that the Fish and 
Wildlife Service has in helping localities combat the spread of 
invasive plant species? What resources does Fish and Wildlife 
provide to localities to make the sort of investments to combat 
these invasive species?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Kelly, thank you for that question, 
specifically, because invasive species cost the U.S. economy 
$120 billion per year. So I hear it is very important to you 
and to your State, and it is across the Nation as well.
    The Department of the Interior addresses invasive species 
collectively. And the Fish and Wildlife Service plays an 
important role in the Department of the Interior effort to 
combat invasive species. To explain or to indicate how much I 
understand this is a critical issue to address, when I was the 
Director of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, we had invasive 
aquatic species, mussels, move into Montana. We stood up with 
the help of many partners, and the legislature stood up a 
program to prevent the spread of the invasive species and to 
mitigate any impacts, and we were able to hold the line for 
mussels not to cross the Continental Divide, into the only 
drainage, the Columbia River system, that did not have aquatic 
mussels. I say that as an example to illustrate how I recognize 
this is a very important issue.
    The Fish and Wildlife Service will work always with 
partners and localities on salt cedar especially. We just play 
a very critical role. The way that we deliver invasive species 
prevention within the Fish and Wildlife Service, as a part of 
the Department of the Interior's efforts, it is cross-
programmatic and obviously, in all of the regions. So we come 
at it from a collective effort within the Service with many 
programs, whether it is fisheries and aquatic services, whether 
it is through law enforcement, which both played a very 
important role in combating the moss balls and stopping those 
moving.
    So this is something that is important, and we will always 
commit to helping combat invasive species, especially in your 
State, with the salt cedar.
    Senator Kelly. This one is very critical for us, because of 
the amount of water that these salt cedars consume. When you 
consider that we are in a 20 year drought, with Lake Powell and 
Lake Meade at historic low levels, this is one of the areas 
that we need to address, we need to be able to conserve every 
drop of water.
    So I look forward to working with you and your office to 
come up with a comprehensive plan on how we are going to deal 
with this invasive species. Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Kelly. I look forward to 
working with you on this.
    Senator Carper. Perfect timing. Alaska has reported for 
duty.
    You are recognized, Senator Sullivan.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Captain.
    Senator Carper. Colonel.
    Senator Sullivan. Good to see you.
    Ms. Williams, thank you for the meeting yesterday. I 
appreciated it. I appreciate the time, and the topics we 
discussed.
    I want to start with an issue that you and I kind of talked 
about, but I want to make it a little bit more public here. So 
the Biden administration keeps talking about racial equity, 
environmental equity. I am all for that. How do you definite 
that? It is confusing to some of us as it relates to the 
environment. How do you define that?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Sullivan, I, too, appreciated your 
time yesterday and getting to visit on issues about your 
special and unique States, the great State of Alaska.
    If I understand your question, I think of serving all 
Alaskans----
    Senator Sullivan. I am talking about, they do a lot on 
racial equity, environmental equity, these are new terms. I 
didn't know what they meant until the Biden administration came 
in. I still don't know what they mean. But what do you think 
they mean in the environmental area?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Sullivan, this is one of the four 
priorities this Administration set out. The Fish and Wildlife 
Service, under my direction so far, and if confirmed, we will 
continue to have a robust implementation of social justice, 
racial equity. Racial equity means to me, Senator, treating 
everyone fairly and being inclusive in how we work with 
everyone.
    Senator Sullivan. Good.
    Ms. Williams. And making all feel that they belong and are 
part of the outdoor experience.
    Senator Sullivan. Let me give you my definition, as far as 
I have seen it. I think there have been 19 executive orders or 
executive actions from this Administration that are focused on 
Alaska, mostly shutting down Alaska, harming Alaskans. They 
don't ask; they just do it.
    I think the Biden administration's environmental justice 
agenda is trying to help minority populations unless they are 
indigenous people in Alaska. That is what I think. Because 
every action, so many of the actions that this Administration 
takes, harms Alaska Native people. They almost go out of their 
way: ANWAR, King Cove, the Alaska Native Vietnam Veteran 
Allotment Act, which the Secretary committed to me that she 
would expedite. She has put a delay on that.
    Vietnam veterans, Mr. Chairman, who are Native, who got 
screwed by their country, are now going to die before this bill 
is implemented. The sea otter management, I mean, the list is 
so long.
    Oh, by the way, the $2 trillion relief bill that had a 
provision saying tens of thousands of Alaska Natives don't get 
relief, could you imagine any other group in America where the 
Congress and the President, the Democrats and the Congress say, 
all these minorities get relief for COVID, but one group in one 
State, they don't get any relief. It is called discrimination, 
last time I looked.
    So I want you, and let me give you one other one. This one 
you and I talked about. This is why I get so riled up about 
these issues. This is a study by the American Medical 
Association. It shows where people in the America, their life 
expectancy increased from 1980 to 2014, or decreased. 
Unfortunately, in a few places in our country, it decreased, 
mostly because of the opioid epidemic.
    The part of America that increased the most, life 
expectancy, was Alaska, particularly the Native communities. 
Here is the reason why: Resource development. Responsible 
resource development.
    So when this Administration targets my State to shut down 
these opportunities, it is literally a matter of life and 
death. And when U.S. Senators, like Senator Heinrich of New 
Mexico, constantly send letters to the Administration saying, 
hey, shut down this Alaska project, that Alaska project, it 
really, really riles me up.
    So here is my question for you. I don't want my 
constituents' life expectancy to go negative, in the wrong 
direction. It is going the right direction now. North Slope, 
Northwest Arctic Borough, Aleutian Island chains, that is all 
because they have responsible resource development 
opportunities.
    This Administration is trying to crush those. Literally for 
my constituents, it is a matter of life and death. For the 
Native people, again, Biden administration, environmental 
equity, seems to exclude a certain indigenous population in 
America, my constituents. You and I had a long talk about this 
yesterday.
    I would like to get your commitment on every one of these 
attempts to lock up my State, that you look at, is it going to 
hurt Alaskans, working families, is it going to hurt Native 
people. Because usually it is, and nobody is asking us. And 
your agency is a huge offender.
    Do you care to comment on this? You can tell it makes me a 
little bit upset. I just want to know. The discrimination 
against indigenous people in my State needs to stop. The war on 
working families, against people in my State, needs to stop. 
Your agency is going to be a big part of it. So what is your 
thinking on this? You can be as long or short as you want.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Sullivan, thank you for that 
question. Again, I appreciated visiting with you on this issue 
yesterday. Racial equity, Alaska Natives, are very important, I 
know, to the----
    Senator Sullivan. They don't seem important to this 
Administration. They seem targeted, to be honest.
    Ms. Williams. If I am confirmed, the Fish and Wildlife 
Service will work very closely with Alaska Natives. I care very 
much how we deliver our conservation mission in Alaska, as an 
example, and I know that we talk about Alaska Natives and 
Alaska Native corporations differently than we do Tribes in the 
lower 48. But I do have experience in working closely with 
Tribes on a number of issues.
    So I look forward to absolutely being in contact with you, 
Senator Sullivan, working closely with you and making sure, if 
confirmed, that the Fish and Wildlife Service delivers fairly, 
transparently with Alaska Native corporations, but all 
Alaskans.
    Senator Sullivan. All Alaskans. Because this really--it is 
easy for my colleagues and the Administration to kind of, hey, 
let's shut down Alaska, right? It's a Republican State; there 
are only 730,000 people there; the radical environmental groups 
are always asking us to shut it down; let's do it. This 
Administration is doing it, even more than the Obama 
administration, which is kind of remarkable, and it is hurting 
people.
    Senator Carper. The Senator's time has more than expired.
    Senator Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, it is a really important 
issue. I hope we can have a hearing in this Committee. My State 
is being targeted--targeted. They are not targeting Delaware, 
that is for damned sure. It is really hard on the people I 
represent, and I am getting more and more mad about it. I think 
you can understand.
    Senator Carper. Sure. I would invite the Senator to stay. I 
am going to ask some questions. If no one else shows up, you 
are welcome to continue this conversation. Thank you for 
joining us today and for your passion.
    I want to return to something we were talking about earlier 
today. Senator Capito and I both mentioned the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act, which has been signed into law with 
great bipartisan support. We are grateful for everybody on our 
staffs on this Committee, both sides of the aisle, who worked 
so hard to provide the foundation on which that bill was built.
    But the landmark legislation includes I think about $350 
million for a wildlife crossing pilot program that is the 
result of years of bipartisan work by this Committee. This 
program will address, as you may know, safety issues presented 
by wildlife-vehicle collisions, and also help conserve wildlife 
by improving habitat connectivity across the country. That is 
another win-win.
    Fish and Wildlife Service will need to work closely with 
the Department of Transportation to successfully implement this 
program. Here is my question: How do you think your experience 
with wildlife-vehicle collision and wildlife crossings in 
Montana has prepared you to help lead the implementation of 
this new pilot program for the Fish and Wildlife Service? 
Please.
    Ms. Williams. First, Chairman Carper, I want to thank you 
for your leadership and all the members of this Committee for 
your many years of work on this issue and a really momentous 
occasion of getting the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs 
signed into law. It is a big moment, and a moment that has been 
a long time coming. So I thank you for your leadership on that.
    Another piece of this momentous act passing is that it is 
this uncommon or important intersection of transportation and 
infrastructure in this Committee and also Natural Resources and 
Wildlife Conservation. So I appreciate that intersection, and I 
think moving forward we are all working very hard to not be 
stove piping these issues, but to be working with them 
together.
    Specifically, the wildlife crossings in Montana, I have 
seen first hand, as I think many of us have seen videos of the 
wildlife that use these crossings. It is quite extraordinary. 
You probably don't even realize they are all there until you 
see the videos. I think of one video of a crossing, a number of 
important crossings on the Flathead Reservation, Confederated 
Salish and Kootenai Tribes. There is a video of somebody 
sleeping in one of the underpasses. And a grizzly bear, 
mountain lion, elk, lynx, all these species walking right by 
this person wrapped up in a blanket under the culvert.
    Senator Carper. Was the person asleep or petrified?
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Williams. I can't answer that. Senator Carper, I think 
I might have been petrified had I been that person.
    But we can't underestimate the importance of these 
crossings for safety and for wildlife. Experience shows that 
species use them. And they do help with safety.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for that. These animals are 
pretty smart.
    I am going to hold my questioning. We have been joined by 
Senator Cardin, and I recognize him for any questions he might 
have at this time.
    Senator Cardin, thanks for coming.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    To Martha Williams, first of all, thank you for your public 
service, and thank you for your willingness to serve in this 
critically important position.
    My understanding is that you have roots in my State of 
Maryland in Baltimore County on a farm. So that seems to me 
good sense. But why did you ever move out of Maryland?
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Williams. Senator, I can say that I have moved back to 
DC and spend my weekends in Maryland. Is that a good enough 
answer?
    Senator Cardin. You are getting there.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cardin. Where was the farm located in Baltimore 
County?
    Ms. Williams. Near Hampstead, Upperco.
    Senator Cardin. Yes, beautiful area. Of course, that area 
right now is starting to get developed. The land is going to be 
worth a lot more money than it was for farming, I am afraid. It 
is getting that way.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cardin, our farm was the first farm 
in Maryland to go in an agricultural preservation easement. So 
there are many farms actually in the neighborhood, in the 
watersheds, that are conserved to continue as working farms. It 
is something our family has been deeply engaged in for many 
years.
    Senator Cardin. When I was speaker of the house in State 
legislature, Jim Clark was president of the senate, we 
developed and strengthened the ag easement program for just 
that reason. Senator Clark had a farm right next to Columbia, 
Maryland, and that is preserved in the easement. So thank you 
for taking advantage of that program.
    So I heard you mentioned already the Chesapeake Bay. But 
you responded to Senator Whitehouse like there are other bodies 
of water that are more important than the Chesapeake Bay.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cardin. So I just want to have you concentrate a 
little bit on our importance of your work, Fish and Wildlife, 
on the Bay. We are desperately in need of wetlands restoration. 
We are using beneficial use of dredged material to restore 
wetlands in Blackwater Wildlife Refuge. We are looking at how 
we can restore islands for wildlife. We had Poplar Island which 
has been restored as a result of use of dredged material. We 
are now going to Mid Bay. I think you did respond to Senator 
Whitehouse, who by the way is a dear friend of mine, and I 
strongly support his efforts in regard to the coastal issues.
    But in regard to the coastal programs themselves and 
protecting our coastlines in regard to fish and wildlife, all 
these are extremely high priorities. We have had bipartisan 
support in this Committee to deal with those programs.
    My request is that we have a very open relationship as it 
relates to strategies to advance these issues. We are not 
always in total agreement, because so many agencies are 
involved, and Fish and Wildlife is one of those agencies. We 
would just like to have an open opportunity to make sure that 
we use every opportunity we can to advance these priorities.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Cardin. I couldn't agree 
more. The Chesapeake Bay is a national treasure. I hope that 
answers that question. I want to be very polite and serious. At 
the same time I do want you to know that I carry my Maryland 
roots with me and have Old Bay seasoning with me at all times, 
as do my children, much to the chagrin of those around us who 
don't quite understand our affinity for the spice.
    In all seriousness, the Chesapeake Bay is so important. Our 
coastal programs are so important. It is going to be critical 
for climate change, for climate resilience. I had the 
opportunity to visit Masonville Cove. I have a promise to have 
a friend take me out to Poplar Island, and I have talked to our 
wildlife refuge staff. I am looking forward to going there.
    So I am a huge supporter of these programs. I absolutely 
look forward to working closely with you, Senator Cardin, and 
being in close contact and understanding your concerns and 
these issues as they evolve. I think we have made great 
strides, but we have a lot of work to do. I very much 
appreciate your and this Committee's commitment to these 
issues.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you for that. I have been to Poplar 
Island many times. It is much nicer in warmer weather than 
colder weather. Just warning you, that I would love to join you 
and I will be pleased to join you. But I am not sure, having 
been on the White House lawn with Senator Carper for the bill 
signing of the Infrastructure Bill and wondering whether I 
would be able to move my body again, it was so cold, let's look 
for warmer weather when we go out and visit these just 
incredible restoration areas that we have been able to create. 
You will see incredible wildlife there that have returned. It 
is amazing. What we are doing at Blackwater with the 
restoration of wetlands is again, the wildlife there is 
absolutely spectacular.
    As you know, in Maryland, we have a lot of preserves that 
are conducive to wildlife, but we need to pay attention to 
restore these areas.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to working with 
you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Cardin.
    Senator Carper. Thank you, Senator Cardin. That was a 
chilly day on Monday, wasn't it? I was pretty amazed at the 
Speaker of the House and also at one of our colleagues, Senator 
Sinema, to be able to stand out there in that kind of weather, 
to stand and deliver, in spite of the very cold, very breezy, 
windy conditions. Very cold.
    I have two more questions, and I don't know if we will be 
joined by some other colleagues, either virtually or in person. 
But I have a couple of questions. One of them deals with State 
experience.
    Senator Cardin has served many years as a State legislator, 
speaker of the house in Maryland, as you may know. I had the 
privilege of serving as treasurer and Governor of my State. I 
have fond memories of those days.
    In those days, I still do, but really enjoyed in those days 
rolling up my sleeves and just trying to get things done, 
working across the aisle with other officials in the First 
State with the environmental community, the business community, 
on matters of both regional and national importance.
    From our conversations, I know you share a passion for that 
experience through your time leading the Montana Department of 
Fish, Wildlife, and Parks. When you reflect back, what are you 
most proud of from your time leading that department? How did 
that role in particular shape you as a leader in wildlife 
conservation?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you for that question, Senator Carper. 
My children always would ask me, what do you actually do, Mom, 
and what do you get done? I would answer, sometimes a bit too 
broadly.
    What am I most proud of? I am most proud of frankly leading 
and overseeing an agency of career public servants to best 
achieve the mission of conservation, and to empower them within 
clear guidelines to do the best work that they can do. So I am 
most proud of my leadership of overseeing and leading an 
agency, a conservation agency. I am proud of the habitats that 
we conserved and restored in my tenure.
    I am proud of the relationships we built in the Montana way 
of doing business, where we worked with everyone. It is not 
crossing the aisles or politics, it is, you work with every 
background in a way where you learn how to deliver.
    I am proud of the way in which I worked and listened to 
people, sometimes frustratingly so. Learned every day, all day, 
every day, on the job. I think I learned especially just how 
much I still have to learn. What did I learn most especially? 
That these issues are hard, but that we are lucky that people 
care about them, and so that we have engagement and can, even 
if it seems tense at first, I learned how key it is to just 
loosen that knot and to get it started, to get conversation 
started and to get the work moving in the right direction.
    So I am always learning that, but that is something that 
became so apparent to me, that sometimes the key step is to 
just start to loosen that knot.
    So I am proud of our people. I am proud of the resources. I 
am proud of the people who lived in our State. So I hope to 
apply that, those lessons, if confirmed as Director, and 
realize that the Fish and Wildlife Service oversees the 
resources in all of this great Nation and international 
wildlife as well. So to always pay attention to the context of 
a place and the people there and realize the issues will need 
to be, to some degree, specific to the place and the people in 
that locality.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for that very thoughtful 
response.
    Senator Cardin and I get asked questions by the press, all 
kinds of different questions. I was asked by, I think it was 
the Washington Post, a month or two ago, some questions, little 
different sorts of questions. One of them was what do you do. I 
responded with the answer that I provide to students when I go 
to elementary schools, maybe middle schools or high schools. I 
said, I work with people like Senator Cardin and 98 other 
Senators, we help make the rules for the country. I say to the 
students, do you have rules in your schools? Yes. Do you have 
rules on your school bus? Yes. Do you have rules at home? Yes. 
We have rules for our country, and along with 99 other Senators 
and 435 House Members, the President and Vice President, I get 
to help make the rules for the country.
    One kid once asked me at a school, well, what else do you 
do? And I said, I help people. The staff and I, we help people, 
my colleagues and I. We try to help people. That is a great 
source of joy for us.
    I have one more. One of the other questions they asked was, 
were you proud of stuff that you have done in your life. I 
said, helping to raise three boys was a source of great joy, 
still is. They are boys to men, but still it is a source of 
great joy.
    All right. For me, the last question would be, this deals 
with the Delaware River Basin Conservation Act. We both care 
about the Chesapeake Bay, but we also care about the Delaware 
Bay and the Delaware River, along with a number of other 
States.
    In 2016, I worked with a number of our colleagues to secure 
passage of the Delaware River Basin Conservation Act. The Fish 
and Wildlife Service and the National Fish and Wildlife 
Foundation have done, I think, an exceptional job in standing 
up the Delaware River Watershed Conservation Fund, which is 
directed by that piece of legislation. The program leverages 
private dollars to restore polluted waters, to enhance fish and 
wildlife habitat, and to increase access to nature.
    The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act included $28 
million to expand on these important efforts. I would just ask, 
are you familiar with the Delaware River Basin Conservation 
Act; is that something you are familiar with? If so, would you 
elaborate on the importance of this regional conservation 
program and other programs like it?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper. I appreciate the 
leadership for the act. It is an example, one of many, but a 
very important example of the power of, what I hope a theme I 
have conveyed, the power of these collaborative, coordinated, 
deliberate efforts that bring, first of all leverages money and 
leverages expertise, so that the delivery of conservation is 
that much more, exponentially more than one entity could do on 
their own. So the Fish and Wildlife Service could never deliver 
this type of conservation on its own. It is the collective 
effort and the leverage of the funding that make it so 
effective.
    Just like, in a way, Prime Hook National Wildlife Refuge 
and the project that we viewed there, this, too, is an example 
that I think could be replicated elsewhere. And I would answer 
that we all, I think, in this profession, look for examples 
where we can take the pieces of them and replicate them, what 
works, and adapt what needs to be adapted for a specific 
location and place.
    The Delaware River Basin is very important. I just really 
commend these efforts. And I know that our regional office and 
leadership has been key in building the relationships to make 
this so effective. So if I am confirmed as Director, I would 
make sure that leadership direction in this instance, I would 
call her out, Wendi Weber, has been extraordinary, and I would 
support other efforts like that of other regional directors, to 
make such a difference. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. All right, thanks.
    Senator Cardin, any more questions?
    Senator Cardin. No, just again to thank you for your 
service. I look forward to working with you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Carper. I have just a real short closing statement. 
I want to thank Senator Cardin and others, certainly our 
Ranking Member, and other members of the Committee who joined 
us in person and virtually.
    We want to thank you, Ms. Williams, not just for being 
here, but we are grateful for your willingness to serve in this 
capacity.
    I would just say to your children, I am grateful to them 
for their willingness to share you with our country. It is a 
time when we face both great conservation challenges but great 
opportunities as well. Your conduct today has helped 
demonstrate why a President made such an excellent choice for 
this critical leadership role at the Fish and Wildlife Service. 
We are looking forward to seeing you confirmed without delay, 
so that you can get to work on behalf of the American people.
    Before we adjourn, a little bit of housekeeping. I want to 
ask unanimous consent, if I can convince Senator Cardin not to 
object, I am going to ask for unanimous consent to submit for 
the record a variety of materials that include letters from 
stakeholders and other materials that relate to today's 
nomination hearing.
    Is there objection?
    Hearing none, so ordered.
    [The referenced material was not received at time of 
print.]
    Senator Carper. Senators will be allowed to submit question 
for the record through the close of business on Wednesday, 
November 24th, and we will compile those questions and send 
them to our witness and ask that you reply by Wednesday, 
December 1st.
    With that, this hearing is adjourned. My thanks to all of 
you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:39 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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