[Senate Hearing 117-457]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                    S. HRG. 117-457

                          PENDING LEGISLATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                                   on


                    S. 1229         S. 1874             S. 2887
                    S. 1269         S. 2258             S. 3264
                    S. 1616         S. 2886             S. 3266
 


                               ----------                              

                            DECEMBER 2, 2021

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[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               


                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
               
                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
46-203                      WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                    

               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine            JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
                                     ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                      Renae Black, Staff Director
                      Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
             Bryan Petit, Senior Professional Staff Member
             Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
              Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
                   James Willson, Republican Counsel
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West 
  Virginia.......................................................     1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from 
  Wyoming........................................................     2
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico............     3
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine, a U.S. Senator from Nevada.........     4
King, Hon. Angus S., a U.S. Senator from Maine...................     4
Lujan, Hon. Ben Ray, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico..............     5

                               WITNESSES

French, Chris, Deputy Chief, National Forest System, Forest 
  Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture........................     6
Lambrecht, Mark, Assistant Director, National Conservation Lands 
  and Community Partnerships, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. 
  Department of the Interior; Accompanied by Reginald Chapple, 
  Acting Assistant Director of Partnerships and Civic Engagement, 
  National Park Service..........................................    19
Turner, Jessica (Wahl), President, Outdoor Recreation Roundtable.    31
Ferguson, Fred, Vice President, Public Affairs and 
  Communications, Vista Outdoor..................................    37

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Access Fund:
    Letter for the Record........................................    99
Albert, Samuel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   102
Alexander, Jared:
    Letter for the Record........................................   103
America Outdoors Association et al.:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   104
American Alpine Club:
    Letter for the Record........................................   112
American Alpine Institute:
    Letter for the Record........................................   116
American Mountain Guides Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   119
American Sportfishing Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   126
American Whitewater:
    Letter for the Record........................................   130
Angell, Matt:
    Letter for the Record........................................   143
Appalachian Trail Conservancy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   144
    Letter to Senators King and Daines, dated July 27, 2021......   149
Avid4 Adventure:
    Letter for the Record........................................   153
Back Country Horsemen of America:
    Letter for the Record........................................   155
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers:
    Letter for the Record........................................   158
Barrasso, Hon. John:
    Opening Statement............................................     2
Beres, Thomas:
    Letter for the Record........................................   160
Bernhoft, Erik:
    Letter for the Record........................................   161
Bolen, Jacob:
    Letter for the Record........................................   162
Bonanno, Anthony:
    Letter for the Record........................................   163
Brooks, Sarah K.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   164
Brown, Christopher:
    Letter for the Record........................................   165
Caldwell, Chuck:
    Letter for the Record........................................   166
Cammarata, Tony:
    Letter for the Record........................................   167
Carfagno, Michelle:
    Letter for the Record........................................   168
Carlson, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   169
Carren, Claire:
    Letter for the Record........................................   170
Cartwright, Deborah:
    Letter for the Record........................................   171
Cartwright, Jessica:
    Letter for the Record........................................   172
Catto, John:
    Letter for the Record........................................   173
Clapp, Christine:
    Letter for the Record........................................   174
Coalition for Outdoor Access:
    Letter for the Record........................................   175
Coffman, Hazel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   181
Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation:
    Letter for the Record........................................   182
Conley, David C.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   184
Connell, Christine:
    Letter for the Record........................................   185
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine:
    Opening Statement............................................     4
Cross, Andrew:
    Letter for the Record........................................   186
DeCoster-Weisheit, Susette:
    Letter for the Record........................................   187
Dexel, Levi:
    Letter for the Record........................................   188
Diegel, Paul:
    Letter for the Record........................................   189
Dotson, Mackenzie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   190
Dowsley, Felix:
    Letter for the Record........................................   191
Dunn, Malcolm:
    Letter for the Record........................................   192
Dyer, Austin:
    Letter for the Record........................................   193
Edwards, Alan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   194
Ferguson, Fred:
    Opening Statement............................................    37
    Written Testimony............................................    39
Fiore, Anne:
    Letter for the Record........................................   195
Fontneau, Bruce:
    Letter for the Record........................................   196
French, Chris:
    Opening Statement............................................     6
    Written Testimony............................................     8
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    66
Gayle, Wanda:
    Letter for the Record........................................   197
Gerbers, Kellie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   198
Gryder, Teresa:
    Letter for the Record........................................   199
Hackett, Jan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   201
Hancock, Julie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   202
Hayes, Judy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   203
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
Hills, Bruce:
    Letter for the Record........................................   204
Hoffman, Dana:
    Letter for the Record........................................   205
Holt, Elias Zane:
    Letter for the Record........................................   206
Huey, Robert:
    Letter for the Record........................................   207
Hut, Martha:
    Letter for the Record........................................   208
International Mountain Bicycling Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   209
Jessup, Kyle:
    Letter for the Record........................................   212
Johnson, M. David:
    Letter for the Record........................................   213
Jorgensen, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   214
Junck, Emily:
    Letter for the Record........................................   215
Kaiser, Joe:
    Letter for the Record........................................   216
Kells, Kerry:
    Letter for the Record........................................   217
Kentch, Sally:
    Letter for the Record........................................   218
King, Jr., Hon. Angus S.:
    Opening Statement............................................     4
Kosmicki, Mary:
    Letter for the Record........................................   219
Kretzmann, Douglas:
    Letter for the Record........................................   220
Lambrecht, Mark:
    Opening Statement............................................    19
    Written Testimony............................................    21
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    91
Langlois, Kevin:
    Letter for the Record........................................   221
Lardy, Pete:
    Letter for the Record........................................   222
Law, Lynda S.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   223
Lee, Renee:
    Letter for the Record........................................   224
Light, Jenni:
    Letter for the Record........................................   225
Lips, Elliott:
    Letter for the Record........................................   226
Lubeck, Andrea:
    Letter for the Record........................................   227
Lujan, Hon. Ben Ray:
    Opening Statement............................................     5
Lusher, Colin:
    Letter for the Record........................................   228
Maclennan, David W.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   229
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Mandler, Bill:
    Letter for the Record........................................   231
Marine Retailers Association of the Americas:
    Letter for the Record........................................   232
McBride, Dan and Samantha:
    Letter for the Record........................................   234
McClarty, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   235
McDaniel, Scott:
    Letter for the Record........................................   236
McMurray, Daniel P.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   237
McNeily, Alex:
    Letter for the Record........................................   238
Meyer, Denise:
    Letter for the Record........................................   239
Minard, Mick:
    Letter for the Record........................................   240
Mletschnig, John:
    Letter for the Record........................................   241
Moline, Tyler:
    Letter for the Record........................................   242
Motorcycle Industry Council et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   243
(The) Mountaineers:
    Letter for the Record........................................   245
National Association of State Outdoor Recreation Liaison 
  Officers:
    Letter for the Record........................................   249
National Forest Recreation Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   250
National Marine Manufacturers Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   252
National Outdoor Leadership School:
    Letter for the Record........................................   255
National Parks Conservation Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   259
Nickle, Ross:
    Letter for the Record........................................   261
Nuelle, James:
    Letter for the Record........................................   262
Oatman, David:
    Letter for the Record........................................   263
Orr, Nancy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   264
Outdoor Alliance:
    Letter for the Record........................................   265
Outdoor Industry Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   281
Parker, Robert:
    Letter for the Record........................................   283
PeopleForBikes Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................   284
Pilarski, Andrew:
    Letter for the Record........................................   285
Pine, Jeff:
    Letter for the Record........................................   286
REI Co-op:
    Letter for the Record........................................   287
River Runners for Wilderness:
    Letter for the Record........................................   289
Rivers, William:
    Letter for the Record........................................   294
Rose, Peter:
    Letter for the Record........................................   295
Rossiter, Kel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   296
Rudd, Tyler:
    Letter for the Record........................................   297
RV Industry Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   298
Sanders, Gordon:
    Letter for the Record........................................   301
Schiller, Chris:
    Letter for the Record........................................   302
Scotter, Alicia:
    Letter for the Record........................................   303
Shepherd, Sarah:
    Letter for the Record........................................   304
Slusser, Richard:
    Letter for the Record........................................   306
Smallwood, Amy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   307
Sol, Laura:
    Letter for the Record........................................   308
Starr, Jerry:
    Letter for the Record........................................   309
Stuller, Craig:
    Letter for the Record........................................   310
Sustainable Trails Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................   312
Thomas, John and Cindy:
    Letter for the Record in Support of S. 1229..................   316
    Letter for the Record in Support of S. 1874..................   318
Thomas, Tim:
    Letter for the Record........................................   315
Triolo, Phil:
    Letter for the Record........................................   320
Trotter, Tim:
    Letter for the Record........................................   321
Turner, Daniel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   322
Turner, Jessica (Wahl):
    Opening Statement............................................    31
    Written Testimony............................................    33
Van Siclen, Gini:
    Letter for the Record........................................   323
Volk, Carol:
    Letter for the Record........................................   324
Weisbach, Phil:
    Letter for the Record........................................   325
Wellborn, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   327
Wild Sheep Foundation:
    Letter for the Record in Support of S. 2886..................   335
    Letter for the Record in Support of S. 1616..................   336
Wilder, Irena:
    Letter for the Record........................................   337
(The) Wilderness Society:
    Letter for the Record........................................   329
Wookey, Trisha:
    Letter for the Record........................................   338
Wright, Derek R.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   339

----------
The text for each of the bills that were addressed in this hearing can 
be found on the Committee's website at: https://www.energy.senate.gov/
hearings/2021/12/full-committee-hearing-to-consider-legislation

 
                          PENDING LEGISLATION

                              ----------                              


                       THURSDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m. in 
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin 
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, U.S. SENATOR FROM 
                         WEST VIRGINIA

    The Chairman. This morning, we will discuss nine bills 
related to outdoor recreation. I want to commend the sponsors 
of the bills on today's agenda for exploring innovative ways to 
improve outdoor recreation opportunities and for seeking to 
help both the public and the businesses that serve them. I am 
especially proud to have partnered with Ranking Member Barrasso 
on the Outdoor Recreation Act, and I will talk about our bill 
in more detail shortly.
    But first, I want to acknowledge that we will have Senator 
Lujan joining us this morning to speak about his bill, and I 
welcome him to the Committee.
    Let me begin by saying outdoor recreation has been a 
powerful economic driver in states across the country, and West 
Virginia is no exception. I have been seeing firsthand the jobs 
that the outdoor recreation economy has brought to rural areas 
in West Virginia. The outdoor recreation industry generates 1.8 
percent of my state's gross domestic product and supports over 
18,000 jobs, and almost three percent of our workforce is now 
employed in the outdoor recreation sector, having earned $641 
million in salaries just last year alone. However, the COVID-19 
pandemic has particularly impacted the outdoor recreation 
industry. According to a recent Department of Commerce report, 
employment rates, generally, across the U.S. dropped five 
percent from 2019 to 2020, but outdoor recreation-related 
employment decreased 17.1 percent. As we discuss legislation 
this morning, I believe that we must keep in mind how the ideas 
in these bills can help grow the $374 billion annual 
contribution that outdoor recreation makes to the economies in 
our rural America.
    Now, our Committee has talked at length about making it 
easier for people to enjoy our nation's treasures in a 
responsible way, as well as the importance of the outdoor 
recreation economy. That is exactly the reason why Ranking 
Member Barrasso and I introduced the Outdoor Recreation Act. 
Our bill enjoys the support of dozens of groups, including the 
Outdoor Alliance, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, 
local businesses--like Water Stone Outdoors in West Virginia, 
and by over 20 national outdoor recreation associations, from 
the RV Industry Association to the Motorcycle Industry Council. 
The Outdoor Recreation Act authorizes agencies like the Forest 
Service and the Department of the Interior to accept money from 
the outside organizations that want to invest in outdoor 
recreation infrastructure on federal lands. It also contains 
proactive measures related to climbing, biking, and target 
shooting on federal land. These are common-sense ways to 
improve the public's experience as they recreate on public 
lands.
    All of the bills before the Committee today seek to address 
recreation and resource management from the different angles. 
Senator Heinrich's bill would assist those leading backpacking 
trips on federal land. Senator Hickenlooper's bill would help 
to fund parks in urban areas. Senator Wyden's bill proposes to 
establish a system of national recreation areas. I will remind 
everyone that West Virginia was actually home to the first 
national recreation area, designated in 1965. It is the Spruce 
Knob-Seneca Rocks National Recreation Area, and is still widely 
used. Senator Cortez Masto's bill would help recreation 
organizations better serve under-resourced and low-income 
communities. Ranking Member Barrasso's bill would help the 
hunting community.
    The nine bills on today's agenda all have a common theme--
facilitating people's ability to enjoy our public lands while 
supporting jobs and local economies. With that, I want to thank 
the witnesses for being here today to help us get a better 
understanding of the bills before us. Following this hearing, 
Ranking Member Barrasso and I, along with our colleagues, will 
get to work preparing the bipartisan recreation package that we 
can report out of this Committee.
    With that, I am going to turn it over to Ranking Member 
Barrasso for his opening statement.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

    Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. 
Thanks for holding this important hearing today. Today, we are 
discussing a number of bills important to my home state and 
other states as well that have an interest in promoting 
recreational opportunities and access on public lands. These 
include S. 3266, the Outdoor Recreation Act, and I am delighted 
to be co-sponsoring it with you, Mr. Chairman.
    Our bipartisan legislation is going to increase and improve 
outdoor recreation opportunities all across America. It is 
going to help modernize public campgrounds. It is going to 
establish shooting ranges on federal forests, and it is going 
to ensure increased access to America's public lands. The bill 
will also leverage private funding to create new recreational 
opportunities on our public lands. Wyoming is the home to some 
of the most incredible national parks and public lands in the 
nation. The Outdoor Recreation Act will help Americans better 
enjoy everything that Wyoming has to offer. Our Wyoming 
Governor, Mark Gordon, stated that, ``If passed, the bill will 
not only support Wyoming's efforts to protect our world-class 
waters and lands, but provide residents and visitors with 
improved infrastructure and increased recreational 
opportunities on Wyoming's federal lands.'' So thanks, Mr. 
Chairman, for working with me in a bipartisan way to develop 
and introduce this important piece of legislation.
    Additionally, I would like to also highlight two other 
bills I have introduced for today's hearing that are on the 
agenda. The first is S. 1616, the Federal Interior Land Media 
Act, or the FILM Act. To keep pace with evolving social media 
and changing technology, this legislation modernizes film 
permitting on public lands. It gives outdoor enthusiasts the 
ability to share their adventures without having to deal with 
burdensome red tape. In the 21st century, it simply does not 
make sense to make people jump through a gauntlet of 
bureaucratic hoops just to film and upload their public land 
adventures. The FILM Act fixes this by exempting certain video, 
digital, and audio recording activities from unnecessary fees 
and arbitrary permitting rules while also ensuring the 
protection of our public lands.
    I also want to highlight S. 2886, the Cape and Antler 
Preservation Enhancement Act--the CAPE Act. In Grand Teton 
National Park, non-native mountain goats threaten the 
struggling native bighorn sheep herd. Through coordinated 
efforts with the National Park Service, volunteers play a major 
role in helping to conserve the bighorn sheep by removing the 
non-native goats. Current law gives discretion to the Park 
Service to donate the meat obtained from these non-native 
species during these authorized wildlife management activities, 
yet the hide, the horn, and antlers go to waste. The CAPE Act 
recognizes conservation efforts by allowing for the donation of 
hides and horns to volunteers who help protect our native 
bighorn sheep.
    Again, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for having this 
important hearing. Recreation and tourism is one of the 
cornerstones of my home state's economy. It is also part of 
what makes Wyoming a premier travel destination for millions of 
visitors from around the world. The pieces of legislation I 
have highlighted here today will help ensure Americans can 
enjoy more of what Wyoming and our nation has to offer. Thank 
you, Mr. Chairman, for working along with me on these important 
bills.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
    And before we get started with our witnesses' testimonies, 
we are going to have some of our Senators speak about their 
bills.
    And right now, I am going to turn to Senator Heinrich.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO

    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and I want to thank 
both you and Ranking Member Barrasso for holding this hearing. 
I want to speak just really briefly about the SOAR Act. This is 
really about permit reform, and before I had this job, I used 
to do this kind of thing for a living. I took people into the 
backcountry for backpacking, for rafting trips, for educational 
trips, and I can speak from experience about how difficult the 
permitting process is, how burdensome, how Byzantine, and 
usually, in many cases, not with a better outcome for the lands 
that are used in all of this.
    This legislation really seeks to streamline that process to 
make it more user-friendly--to make it more flexible, 
especially in the face of some of the challenges we have. You 
could lose a whole season to a wildfire under current 
circumstances, and the current system was just not built to 
flexibly respond to some of those huge events. So I look 
forward to discussing it more with my colleagues. I want to 
thank Senator Capito, who is my primary co-sponsor, and all the 
members on this Committee and off on both sides of the aisle 
who have co-sponsored this legislation.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Do any other Senators want to make a comment on any of 
their bills?
    Senator Cortez Masto.

       OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA

    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I, too, want to thank the 
Chairman and Ranking Member for holding this legislative 
hearing today. Thank you to all the witnesses for joining. 
Really, the importance of this hearing is underscoring the 
important access to public lands for all, and that is the 
motivation behind my bill and every bill that is on the agenda 
today.
    S. 1269 is the Environmental Justice in Recreation 
Permitting Act. It was actually introduced by Interior 
Secretary Haaland last Congress, and it requires the 
Secretaries of the Department of the Interior and the 
Department of Agriculture to produce an interagency report 
regarding the impacts and challenges that the current 
recreational permitting process pose on public access to lands 
for people in low-income communities, or for communities of 
color, or for our tribal and indigenous communities. Clearly, 
we are all here today to make sure we open up our public lands 
for access to all. And we want to make sure we are tearing down 
any barriers to those who might not have an opportunity to 
enjoy our great outdoors. That is the purpose behind this bill 
as well.
    So thank you. I look forward to the hearing today.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator King.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ANGUS S. KING,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

    Senator King. I just wanted to add my support to the 
comments of Senator Heinrich. It may surprise members of this 
Committee--because it is outdoor recreation, we often think of 
the West. Maine is the third-ranked state, as it has the third 
highest portion of our GDP coming from outdoor recreation of 
any state in the country. Acadia National Park, this year, had 
four million visitors, up from a record of 3.7 several years 
ago. And it is an incredible part of our economy.
    Unfortunately, during the pandemic, we lost 24 percent of 
our jobs in outdoor recreation. So I think it is so important. 
I am a co-sponsor of the Simplifying Outdoor Access for 
Recreation Act.
    Also, I wanted to commend the Outdoors for All Act, of 
which I am also a co-sponsor, because park resources are not 
equitably distributed, and there are millions of Americans who 
really do not have access to outdoor recreation areas, and that 
bill is about encouraging a program within the National Park 
Service providing partnerships with local park facilities.
    So this is a very important hearing. I commend the 
Committee for taking this on. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Now we have Senator Lujan for an introduction of his bill.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BEN RAY LUJAN,
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO

    Senator Lujan. Good morning, everyone. I want to thank the 
Chairman and the Ranking Member, Mr. Barrasso, for holding this 
hearing on a range of important bills, including my bipartisan 
Biking on Long Distance Trails Act. I also want to thank co-
sponsors and colleagues that I worked with on this bill, 
Senator Cramer, Senator Heinrich, as well as Chairman Manchin 
and Ranking Member Barrasso.
    New Mexico is blessed to have extraordinary mountain ranges 
and scenic views with incredible trails to bike and explore. 
When I am back home, I have always enjoyed getting on my 
mountain bike to explore New Mexico's beautiful landscapes. In 
addition to mountain biking, these trails also provide a boost 
to our local economy. We have seen increases in opportunities 
throughout the West. In New Mexico, New Mexico's outdoor 
economy accounts for over 35,000 jobs and $1.2 billion in 
wages. States across the country, like North Dakota, West 
Virginia, and Wyoming all have rich landscapes that offer 
incredible opportunities for mountain biking and the economic 
boost that it provides. This bipartisan legislation will use 
the millions of acres of federal lands that have gone untapped 
and will identify bike trails that are more accessible and safe 
all across America. This bill would allow the Department of the 
Interior to pinpoint opportunities to develop or complete long-
distance bike trails as well as allow the Department to promote 
these exciting opportunities to the American people. As 
mountain biking's popularity continues to increase, this 
legislation will make these outdoor spaces more accessible to 
Americans and bolster outdoor economies nationwide.
    Again, I want to thank the leadership on the Committee. I 
also want to thank the staff for their vision on what they put 
together here. I am excited about this, and while I may not be 
able to trek all the way from New Mexico up to North Dakota, 
once we get a trail put in place, I will do segments of it, and 
I look forward to inviting all of our friends to join us after 
we get that done.
    Thank you again to the staff and to the Chair and to the 
Ranking Member for their work on this important package.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senators, I appreciate that.
    Now we are going to turn to our panel.
    We have with us today Deputy Chief Chris French from the 
Forest Service.
    We have Mr. Mark Lambrecht from the Department of the 
Interior's Bureau of Land Management.
    We have Ms. Jess Turner, Executive Director of the Outdoor 
Recreation Roundtable.
    And we have Mr. Fred Ferguson, Vice President of Vista 
Outdoors.
    Now we are going to Mr. French for his opening statement.

   STATEMENT OF CHRIS FRENCH, DEPUTY CHIEF, NATIONAL FOREST 
                  SYSTEM, USDA FOREST SERVICE

    Mr. French. Good morning Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member 
Barrasso, and members of the Committee. Thanks for the 
opportunity to provide the perspective of the USDA on these 
public land bills that are under consideration today. I 
appreciate Congress's work to help us provide more efficient 
and more effective delivery of approaches to connecting people 
with their public lands. Delivering high-quality recreation 
experiences is a key focus of this Administration and our 
leadership in the agency. Outdoor recreation is a powerful 
driver of local and national economies by providing jobs and 
revenue from goods, services, and tourism. Cities and towns 
across the country are tapping the business of outdoor 
recreation--for good reason. They recognize that outdoor 
recreation and open spaces are key ingredients to healthy 
communities, a high quality of life, and the ability of a 
community to attract and sustain businesses and families.
    Recreation is the largest economic output of our National 
Forest System. It is the single greatest driver of connecting 
the American people to our national forests and grasslands. In 
fact, recreation, hunting, fishing, and wildlife viewing, 
together, sustain more jobs than any other activity on or in 
our national forests and grasslands. Like others, last year we 
experienced record-setting, unprecedented visitation levels to 
our National Forest System lands--168 million visitors with 18 
million new visitors in one year, and change. As the agency has 
driven more resources to address our wildfire crisis, our 
ability and focus on delivering this premier program is not 
meeting the current public demand. Therefore, Congressional 
action has been helpful in helping us, such as those bills 
being discussed today. One example I might give of a great 
success has been the Great American Outdoors Act, which has 
been critical to address our nearly $6 billion in 
infrastructure deferred maintenance backlog. In the last three 
years, we have addressed nearly 500 recreation sites, 106 water 
systems, 99 trail bridges, and other public-facing facilities.
    Our program is huge. We manage more than 25,000 recreation 
sites, 14,000 bathrooms, 160,000 miles of hiking trails, 
400,000 miles of forest roads, 22 national recreation areas, 
122 wild and scenic rivers, 60 percent of all the downhill 
skiing occurs under permit on 122 sites on National Forest 
System lands, and we oversee and manage nearly 30,000 special-
use permits for recreation businesses that provide for river 
rafting, horseback riding, and other outfitter guide services. 
All of this totals nearly $13.5 billion in domestic product and 
over 160,000 jobs. To support access to our national forests, 
we believe it is critically important to identify barriers 
impacting environmental justice communities and permit holders 
when trying to enjoy those public lands. We therefore support 
the intent of S. 1269, and would like to work with the 
Committee to ensure the language is drafted in a way that 
supports successful implementation.
    Additionally, we really welcome tools such as those 
proposed in S. 3266, the Outdoor Recreation Act, that assist us 
in building back better to undertake more robust recreation 
planning, partnerships, conservation finance agreements, and 
improve our infrastructure. We support the overall goals of the 
bill, and we look forward to working with the Committee and its 
sponsors to ensure those goals can be achieved and do not 
duplicate or add burden to some of our current planning 
processes.
    The USDA is supportive of identifying and promoting long-
distance biking opportunities on National Forest System lands 
such as those identified in S. 3264, the BOLT Act. We welcome 
the opportunity to discuss the biking opportunities and trail 
designation authorities on National Forest System lands with 
the Committee and the bill sponsor and, if desired, to work on 
technical improvements with the bill.
    As I said, we administer over 30,000 recreation special-use 
authorizations for activities that generate nearly $2 billion 
for their holders. We support the goals and provisions that aim 
to streamline and improve those processes. S. 1229, the SOAR 
Act, and S. 1874, the Recreation Not Red Tape Act, address 
those. We have some concerns about the liability and cost 
recovery provisions and would like to work with the Committee 
to amend the language, but overall, we support the goals and 
intent of the bills. S. 1874 also includes provisions to 
improve veterans' access to the outdoors, provide new planning 
and management requirements for national recreation areas, 
promote volunteerism to enhance recreational access, and 
establish an interagency trail management plan. We are 
supportive, generally, of these goals and provisions and would 
like to continue to work with the Committee.
    Finally, S. 1616, the FILM Act, directs the USDA not to 
require a permit or land-use fee for commercial filming if 
certain conditions are met. There is pending litigation 
relevant to this issue, and USDA would like to work with the 
Committee and bill sponsor on this issue once a decision is 
rendered in that case.
    That concludes my remarks, and I appreciate the time this 
morning. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. French follows:]
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    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Now we are going to hear from Mr. Mark Lambrecht.

   STATEMENT OF MARK LAMBRECHT, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, NATIONAL 
 CONSERVATION LANDS AND COMMUNITY PARTNERSHIPS, BUREAU OF LAND 
 MANAGEMENT; ACCOMPANIED BY REGINALD CHAPPLE, ACTING ASSISTANT 
 DIRECTOR OF PARTNERSHIPS AND CIVIC ENGAGEMENT, NATIONAL PARK 
                            SERVICE

    Mr. Lambrecht. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, 
and members of the Committee, my name is Mark Lambrecht. I am 
Assistant Director for National Conservation Lands for the 
Bureau of Land Management. It is my privilege to be with you 
this morning to testify on behalf of S. 3266, the Outdoor 
Recreation Act; S. 1229, the Simplifying Outdoor Access for 
Recreation Act; S. 1874, the Recreation Not Red Tape Act; S. 
1269, a bill concerning environmental justice and recreation 
permitting; and S. 3264, the Biking on Long-Distance Trails 
Act. The BLM supports the overall goals of these bills and 
looks forward to working with the sponsors and the Committee on 
them further.
    I am also pleased to be accompanied today by Reginald 
Chapple, Acting Assistant Director of Partnerships and Civic 
Engagement for the National Park Service, who is available to 
answer any questions on S. 1616, the Federal Interior Land 
Media Act; S. 2258, the Parks, Jobs, and Equity Act; S. 2886, 
the Cape and Antler Preservation Enhancement Act; and S. 2887, 
the Outdoors for All Act.
    Increasing public access to the outdoors for all people and 
offering opportunities to fully enjoy our nation's public 
lands, including for communities that have disproportionately 
less access to nature, is an important priority for Secretary 
Haaland. Additionally, President Biden's Call to Action in 
Executive Order 14008, tackling the climate crisis at home and 
abroad, supports improving access to recreation, revitalizing 
local economies, creating opportunities for underrepresented 
communities, and protecting our national treasures. The BLM is 
one of several land management agencies within the Department 
offering tremendous outdoor recreation opportunities on our 
nation's shared public lands. BLM-managed public lands host a 
remarkable variety of recreational opportunities, and they 
supported more than 73 million recreational visits last year, 
an increase of 3 million from 2019.
    I will now briefly touch on the bills addressed in my 
written testimony.
    S. 3266 proposes to modernize and improve outdoor 
recreation on federal lands. The BLM appreciates the sponsor's 
interests in finding innovative ways to modernize facilities 
and meet the growing demand for outdoor recreation 
opportunities.
    S. 1229, the SOAR Act, aims to improve the process and 
reduce the cost of applying for and administering recreation 
permits and authorizes single joint permits for multi-
jurisdictional trips across federal lands. The Department 
supports efforts to improve the process for recreation permits 
as we continue to pursue opportunities to facilitate increased 
recreational access for all Americans, especially underserved 
communities.
    S. 1874 contains substantially similar provisions on 
recreation permits to those in S. 1229. Additional provisions 
of S. 1874 address access to public lands for recreation, job 
opportunities for veterans at federal land management agencies, 
and establishment of a national recreation area system and a 
trail management provision. The Department strongly supports 
expanding opportunities for our military families and veterans, 
and we look forward to working with the sponsors on other 
provisions.
    S. 1269 requires the Department to submit a report to 
Congress on the estimated use of recreation permits by 
recreation service providers serving environmental justice 
communities. The Department strongly supports the goal of 
promoting equitable use of public lands by all Americans, 
especially communities of color, low-
income communities, and rural and indigenous communities that 
have long suffered disproportionate and cumulative harm from 
air and water pollution and toxic sites.
    S. 3264 requires the Department to identify no less than 10 
existing long-distance bike trails and 10 areas with potential 
for future long-distance bike trails. The Department supports 
the goals of establishing additional opportunities for biking 
on federal lands.
    In conclusion, the BLM appreciates the Committee's effort 
to promote recreational use of public lands. I appreciate the 
opportunity to testify today, and I would be happy to answer 
any questions you may have on the BLM-related bills. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lambrecht follows:]
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    The Chairman. Thank you, sir, I appreciate it.
    Now we have Ms. Turner.

    STATEMENT OF JESSICA (WAHL) TURNER, PRESIDENT, OUTDOOR 
                     RECREATION ROUNDTABLE

    Ms. Turner. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and 
members of the Committee, on behalf of the outdoor recreation 
business community I want to thank you for this hearing on 
impactful bills that support outdoor recreation for all 
Americans and the businesses and communities that rely on a 
strong outdoor recreation economy.
    The Outdoor Recreation Roundtable (ORR) is the nation's 
leading coalition of outdoor recreation associations, now 
totaling 35 national associations, representing over 110,000 
American outdoor businesses that cover the full spectrum of 
recreation activities. Prior to the pandemic, at a time of 
unprecedented economic growth, we were growing faster than the 
economy as a whole in every indicator, generating $788 billion 
in economic activity and 5.2 million jobs. This day is a long 
time coming, as recreation has grown in popularity and 
importance, especially over the past few years, not just as an 
economic driver in all corners of the country, but as a 
mechanism for mental, physical, and societal health.
    However, even with record-breaking sales and participation 
across the activity spectrum, there are challenges to consider. 
How do we manage for more visitors while ensuring the quality 
of the experience and the health of our public lands and 
waters? Our sector lost billions in revenue due to canceled 
trips and travel from domestic and international visitors over 
the past year. How do we support small businesses and rural 
communities still suffering from these COVID-19 losses? How do 
we ensure communities have the assistance they need to support 
sustainable outdoor recreation while also advancing equitable 
access, from the backcountry to the backyard? Swift passage of 
the bills being discussed today will drive pragmatic solutions 
to these challenges forward by updating our recreation policies 
for 21st century demands. All of the bills, and particularly 
the following provisions, will allow our industry to excel at 
what we do best--support healthy people, healthy places, 
healthy communities, and healthy economies.
    The SOAR Act will streamline the permitting process for 
guides and outfitters, nonprofits, and educational 
institutions. These entities have been burdened for years by a 
complex, costly, and duplicative permitting system that too 
often does not authorize new permits, new activities, account 
for changes in visitor behavior or the growing impacts of 
climate change, closures due to flood, droughts, and wildfire.
    The Recreation Not Red Tape Act adds tools to the federal 
agencies' toolbox to improve and modernize recreation assets 
and management across the board. Its important provisions 
include establishing online payments for passes, engaging the 
private sector in stewardship, strengthening interagency 
coordination, and encouraging land managers to account for 
recreation in their planning efforts.
    The Outdoor Recreation Act unlocks private funding for 
recreation partnerships. It also supports gateway communities 
with new training programs and technical assistance to plan for 
sustainable economies and enhance recreation opportunities in 
shoulder seasons. Importantly, the Outdoor Recreation Act also 
improves visitor data collection and utilization by 
establishing a uniform system for accurate, real-time data 
across all of the agencies. This would allow the public to make 
informed decisions about the type of experience they want to 
have. They would know if an entrance to a park was at capacity 
before they got to the site and where else they could go for a 
similar amenity or experience. Land managers would also have 
more data to manage resources and direct funding appropriately.
    As we look at the overcrowding of some sites, we must also 
recognize that last year, as travel was restricted and 
residents were encouraged to stay close to home, more than 100 
million people were not within 10 minutes of a green space or a 
park. With more people heading outside, more equitable access 
and infrastructure is needed. We appreciate the consideration 
of the Outdoors for All Act; the Park, Jobs, and Equity Act; 
and the Environmental Justice in Recreation Permitting Act, so 
everyone can reap the benefits of time spent outside.
    There has never been a better time to consider a first-ever 
recreation package combining the critical policy management 
provisions before us today and others, like SHRED (Ski Hill 
Resources for Economic Development Act) and MAPLand 
(Modernizing Access to Public Land Act), to truly harness the 
surge in outdoor recreation. Through these important policy 
updates, we can help Americans get outside in their communities 
or on iconic lands while protecting our natural resources and 
revitalizing not just our economy, but also our collective 
spirit. Thank you for holding this important hearing, and 
please consider ORR and our many member partners in advancing 
these bills through the legislative process. This would truly 
be a legacy achievement for the Committee and the American 
public. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Turner follows:]
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    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you, Ms. Turner.
    Mr. Ferguson.

          STATEMENT OF FRED FERGUSON, VICE PRESIDENT, 
        PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND COMMUNICATIONS, VISTA OUTDOOR

    Mr. Ferguson. Good morning Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member 
Barrasso, and members of the Committee. My name is Fred 
Ferguson, and I am Vice President of Public Affairs and 
Communications for Vista Outdoor.
    Vista Outdoor is a leading manufacturer and designer of 
outdoor recreation gear. We are headquartered in Anoka, 
Minnesota, and employ more than 6,000 people across 16 states 
and Puerto Rico. We serve our consumers through a portfolio of 
38 iconic brands, which include CamelBak, Bell Helmets, 
Remington ammunition and accessories, and Bushnell Golf, among 
many others. We are a mission-driven company founded on the 
belief that when we bring the world outside, we bring it closer 
together.
    In a country that is increasingly divided along political 
lines, Vista Outdoor is committed to finding common ground for 
all outdoor enthusiasts, no matter their affiliation or 
activity of choice. The outdoors is for all Americans. This 
mindset drives action across our entire business, from our 
corporate foundation, which recently awarded 10 grants to 
outdoor non-profits, to our sustainability program, which was 
recognized by Investor's Business Daily as the third best in 
the consumer goods category, just behind Nike. We are the 
largest contributor to conservation through the Pittman-
Robertson Act. Since Vista Outdoor was created, we have proudly 
contributed nearly $500 million under Pittman-Robertson. And 
CamelBak, who for decades has been at the forefront of ending 
single-use plastics in water bottles, is leading an effort to 
expand water refilling stations on federal lands in the hopes 
of increasing access to hydration while also reducing waste in 
our lands and waterways.
    The time to invest in the outdoors is now. Millions of 
people ventured outdoors over the past 20 months. Some 
reconnected with their favorite pastimes, such as hunting or 
biking, while others engaged in recreational activity for the 
first time, including more than 10 million first-time campers. 
This resurgence in outdoor activity has continued in 2021, and 
it is incumbent upon leaders in the private and public sectors 
to maintain the momentum and expand the outdoor infrastructure 
ecosystem. Vista Outdoor has been leading by example. We have 
invested more than $500 million into new businesses. We have 
launched our foundation, and we have taken care of our 
employees by expanding benefits while also establishing an 
employee assistance fund.
    The Committee's actions show that Congress is serious about 

the outdoors as well. The nine bills under consideration 
advance common-ground goals that we support, including expanded 
access, greater diversity, and better management of our public 
lands. We support each of the bills under consideration, and in 
the interest of time, I will highlight just a few.
    We support the Simplifying Outdoor Access for Recreation 
Act--the SOAR Act. Guides and outfitters are some of the best 
advocates for public lands, as Senator Heinrich knows, and 
elevating their role in our recreation system is well-timed and 
well-deserved. One provision we have highlighted for Committee 
staff relates to permits for guided bike trips. In our 
experience, the new normal for guided trips includes a mix of 
traditional and e-bike uses. We think final language should 
reflect this new reality and ensure that traditional bikes and 
e-bikes operate under a single permit.
    We support the Outdoors for All Act and the codification of 
the Outdoor Recreation Legacy Partnership Program. Enactment of 
this legislation will have the dual effect of bringing more 
people outdoors while also breaking down barriers and using the 
outdoors as a force for change.
    We support the FILM Act. We need to recruit and activate 
the next generation of outdoor recreation champions, and the 
FILM Act will help us to get there.
    We support the Outdoor Recreation Act, and I will discuss 
two key provisions. First, the gateway community planning 
provision is needed. National Parks are breaking visitation 
records, so gateway community planning is becoming an essential 
part of the visitor experience. Second, we support the 
provision to authorize the BLM and the Forest Service, in 
partnership with local stakeholders, to build additional 
recreational shooting ranges on public lands. Recreational 
shooting and hunting have grown in popularity during the last 
20 months. Expanding range infrastructure will promote safety, 
minimize dispersed target shooting, and support wildlife 
conservation funding. Target shooting is the leading 
contributor to the Pittman-Robertson Trust Fund, so this 
provision is a sound investment in the future of conservation.
    Again, on behalf of Vista Outdoor and the many stakeholders 
of the $689 billion outdoor recreation economy, thank you for 
the opportunity to testify, and for the Committee's focus in 
getting this outdoor package signed into law.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ferguson follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman [presiding]. I thank all of you.
    We are going to start our questions, and I will start with 
all of you on this one. In my opening statement, I said that 
the Commerce Department recently released its analysis of the 
impacts of outdoor recreation as a whole to the U.S. economy, 
and every state is impacted by it. But several years ago, the 
Forest Service specifically analyzed the impacts that its 
project work and visitation at each national forest has on 
local economies. The problem? They have not done it since 2016. 
That is the problem. We do not know where we are. So we are 
five years down the road and have no idea of the impact, which 
may be much more enhanced than what we think it is. Can any of 
you comment to that, and what are your intentions as far as 
those? Mr. French and Mr. Lambrecht, you have responsibilities 
for those areas.
    Mr. French. Yes, thank you, Chairman. We are on a five-year 
cycle to redo those. We do those for every single forest. They 
are due to be revised within the next six months of this year. 
It is part of this year's program report.
    The Chairman. Mr. Lambrecht.
    Mr. Lambrecht. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Barrasso----
    The Chairman. You being brand new, you can really kick him 
in the butt and get it done quicker, maybe.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Lambrecht. For the BLM, in 2020, recreation activities 
provided an estimated impact of $7.7 billion in economic output 
and supported 54,000 jobs. So that is the latest data that we 
have available, and it is something that we are constantly 
tracking. I appreciate the question.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Anybody else want to comment on that?
    Ms. Turner.
    Ms. Turner. Yes, we definitely appreciate that the agencies 
have budget restrictions, and a lot of agency funding, 
especially in the Forest Service, has gone to wildfire; but we 
do think that there is a better way to have data, especially to 
understand the full economic impact across all agencies 
simultaneously, using similar models that come out at the same 
time of year. I think one of the biggest things is keeping up 
with the new users. Climbing is one of those activities that is 
growing. Perhaps after the most recent Olympics, it will grow 
even more, and right now, the visitor model for the Forest 
Service does not even account for climbing.
    The Chairman. Do you all share your information or your 
concerns, and have the agencies been receptive or have they not 
been receptive?
    Ms. Turner. I think slightly receptive, but I also think it 
is hard to have interagency coordination on something like this 
across all agencies and especially since some visitation models 
vary so much and agencies report out at different times of 
year. So it would be helpful for Congress to----
    The Chairman. Well, outdoor recreation is changing so much. 
You would like to see the agencies change to get this input so 
we could meet the demands of the people.
    Mr. Chapple, I think you want to say something.
    Mr. Chapple. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Why don't you introduce yourself, sir, 
since----
    Mr. Chapple. I am Reginald Chapple. I am the Acting 
Assistant Director of Partnerships and Civic Engagement for the 
National Park Service. That includes rivers, trails, outdoor 
recreation, the Land and Water Conservation Fund.
    The Chairman. Are you responsible for making it more 
friendly so we can all go and enjoy it and not get thrown out?
    Mr. Chapple. Yes, sir, that is why I am here----
    The Chairman. Good.
    Mr. Chapple [continuing]. To have that discussion today, 
indeed.
    So let me just tell you a little bit about the National 
Park Service. We do have a social science directorate that 
actually is engaged in research. We know that $41 billion in 
visitor spending happened in 2019, and we are continuing to 
track that for 2020 and into 2021. We also know that, with 
regard to the recreation economy, we generated $21 billion for 
the GDP and 1.2 million jobs. So we are continuing to work on 
that in the National Park Service to actually bring those 
numbers up to date through our natural resource social science 
directorate.
    The Chairman. Mr. French, this is for you.
    Two years ago, the Committee held an oversight hearing on 
outdoor recreation during which we discussed a problem related 
to the total number of days outfitters and guides can lead 
trips on federal land. Specifically, we talked about 
reallocating unused user days in permits, so they were not 
wasted. Deputy Chief French, as a 
follow-up to that discussion after that hearing, I sent you a 
question for the record, and in your response to that question, 
you said that the National Forest System currently had the 
flexibility to reallocate unused days. I see that my colleague 
Senator Heinrich's bill on the SOAR Act and Senator Wyden's 
bill on Recreation Not Red Tape still contain the provisions 
authorizing the Forest Service to reallocate unused visitor 
days.
    Over two years have passed since the hearing. Is this still 
an outstanding issue? We have not heard back from you.
    Mr. French. No, we have that authority. We have a process 
in place right now where we go through periodically and do 
those user reviews and then reallocate those unused days. But 
we are working with the Committee as this bill goes forward, 
providing technical assistance.
    The Chairman. What is the time delay? What is the problem? 
I mean, we have been providing money--you have more money 
coming in now. Hopefully we are giving you the resources you 
need. Nobody is coming to work?
    Mr. French. No, I mean, I think on this particular issue, 
at the end of the day, it's just the sheer volume of work and 
the number of people we have doing it.
    The Chairman. Well, people are not coming to work.
    Senator Barrasso.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Ferguson, my bill, the CAPE Act, supports wildlife 
management activities that can serve important native wildlife 
and accomplishes this by allowing for the donation of the hides 
and the horns to the volunteers who help protect our native 
species, such as the bighorn sheep population that we have in 
Wyoming. The volunteers that participate, they invest a lot of 
hours, their own resources, to help conserve our bighorn sheep 
population.
    Do you agree that allowing the donation of the hide and the 
horns to these volunteers does help eliminate needless waste 
and kind of incentivizes participation in this conservation 
effort?
    Mr. Ferguson. We do, sir. You know, culling in National 
Park units where hunting is not allowed is a very effective, 
efficient, and humane mechanism to manage certain species of 
wildlife. You know, we think the CAPE Act is--as written and as 
intended--is going to continue to promote the principles of 
culling and ensure that it is carried out in the way that 
Congress intended, in the way that we all want culling to move 
forward.
    Senator Barrasso. Ms. Turner and then also to Mr. Ferguson, 
you can chime in at the end of this.
    Earlier this year, you know, I introduced the FILM Act, had 
a lot of input from folks in Wyoming, and this is to address 
the permitting scheme that really makes it harder for the 
public to record and share their experiences on public lands. 
So I think the bill is critical to update the laws and the 
regulations that keep pace with advancements that we have in 
technology and social media. Do you agree that this is going to 
greatly improve access and enjoyment of public lands?
    Ms. Turner. Yes, I mean, I think one of the things we are 
finding is that the first interaction that many young people, 
especially, are having with the outdoors is through social 
media and through film, and it is really inspirational for them 
to go to those places someday or to learn the activities and 
look into those places. It also goes to a general theme that we 
are going to hear, hopefully, throughout the morning, which is 
the needed staff time and resources that it takes to create 
those unnecessary permits. Those could be going to perhaps some 
of the other things that we are talking about today. So 
creating efficiencies and streamlining processes.
    Senator Barrasso. The things that Mr. Chapple mentioned as 
well. Great, thank you.
    Mr. Ferguson, anything else you want to add on that?
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, I would echo Jessica's comments. We need 
the next generation of champions, and we want them to touch, 
see, and feel our public lands, but if through digital media we 
can inspire them and give, you know, these future champions the 
motivation and inspiration to take a trip, I think that's a 
win-win.
    Senator Barrasso. Great.
    Mr. French, our Outdoor Recreation Act is going to 
authorize finance partnerships for recreation projects with the 
National Forest System, truly, to help nearby communities 
become more popular recreation destinations. These partnerships 
would significantly leverage private investments, giving 
taxpayers a much bigger bang for their buck. My understanding 
is that the Forest Service has had some early success with 
partnerships like this. I think Wayne National Forest in Ohio 
is one. Can you tell a little bit about the success of that 
project and how this model could be expanded to other projects?
    Mr. French. Yes, you bet. So conservation finance is 
something that we have been working on for the last few years 
to help us with things like watershed restoration, wildland 
fire risk reduction, and recreation infrastructure. And 
essentially, we combine the interest of communities, private 
companies, and ourselves to collaboratively invest in creating 
something earlier than we could do on our own. On the Baileys 
Trail project, which is the one on the Wayne National Forest, 
that is more than 80 miles of trail systems for mountain bikes 
and other users. It is a multi-user type system. We leveraged 
nearly $10 million of investments, matched with federal dollars 
to create that program. We never would have been able to do it 
if that hadn't happened, and it is serving the community well 
and attracting increased tourism.
    Senator Barrasso. Great.
    Mr. Ferguson. And Mr. Barrasso.
    Senator Barrasso. Yes, go ahead.
    Mr. Ferguson. If I could add, you know, as a private 
company, we have just entered into a partnership with the 
National Forest Foundation in getting funding to grant projects 
on national forests for wildlife restoration, habitat 
restoration, and the like. And so I think, from our 
perspective, this provision is very attractive and something 
that we want to learn more about, to be part of the solutions 
that all of us are talking about here today.
    Senator Barrasso. And Mr. Ferguson, you know, the Outdoor 
Recreation Act also provides a framework to ensure access to 
federal lands by increasing opportunities for both motorized 
and non-motorized access to our roads and our trails.
    Can you elaborate on the importance of ensuring both 
motorized and non-motorized access to our federal lands?
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, you know, similar to the FILM Act, you 
know, with all the different users of public lands, the 
millions of users who have entered the public lands over the 
last 20 months, the future champions we hope to activate, there 
are a lot of ways to enjoy the public lands, whether it's 
mountain biking, hiking, you know, taking a ride on an e-bike, 
side-by-sides, four-wheeling. There are 660 million acres of 
federal land, and I think we all can agree that we need to have 
options and choices for people in how they recreate and how 
they enjoy these lands.
    Senator Barrasso. Ms. Turner, could I ask you to----
    Ms. Turner. Yes, just--I think it's really important to 
understand the new consumer. It's not perhaps what--you know, 
at least what my parents grew up with, where you're a climber, 
and that's all you do.
    Senator Barrasso. You mean people like our age?
    Ms. Turner. Yes. I wasn't going to say it.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Turner. Or you ride motorcycles and, you know, you're 
head-to-toe Harley. Now you're taking your motorcycle to the 
climbing crag to get through LA traffic quicker. You're taking 
your kayak on your RV. You're taking your fishing pole on your 
boat. And so I think the experiential economy--knowing that 74 
percent of all Americans want to collect experiences--we just 
need to update our management system so that it's acknowledging 
that today I might be on a snowmobile, and tomorrow I might be 
on skis, and, you know, we need to have land managers and I 
think policymakers, you know, coming together to protect public 
lands for all activities.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. French, in your testimony, you said that recreation on 
National Forest System lands sustains more private-sector jobs 
than any other Forest Service programs and provides the single 
largest economic stimulus for many local communities adjacent 
to or within national forest lands. I want to ask you to dig in 
a little deeper on that and give us a sense of scale. So there 
are a number of economic activities on Forest Service lands. We 
have the timber program, the grazing program--how do these 
things stack up against each other? What portion of the 
economic activity that occurs on forest lands today is a result 
of the outdoor recreation economy, and how does it compare to 
other sectors?
    Mr. French. It dwarfs other sectors. Here's what I'll do. I 
can give to you, Senator, and for the whole Committee, the 
breakdown we do every year on those financial impacts. We also, 
getting to Senator Manchin's earlier question, look at that 
every five years on every single national forest and what they 
produce. But by far, when you look at it, as a comparison, the 
outdoor recreation and associated uses is the largest single 
driver. I don't have that percentage in my hand, but it dwarfs 
almost everything else.
    Senator Heinrich. I am not surprised by that, having worked 
in the sector myself, but what I have always struggled with is 
the experience, at least that I had, and hopefully it's 
changing. Does the Forest Service prioritize outdoor recreation 
and its economic impacts commensurate with the scale of the 
contribution to local economies?
    Mr. French. I think so. I'm going to give you a 
straightforward answer on that. Yes, I think our intent and our 
internal prioritization of where we want to be to do that is 
very different from the resources we have to deliver it. And so 
we have done it through a lot of efficiencies, but I would say 
that our staffing is----
    Senator Heinrich. Let me ask you this then.
    Mr. French. Yes.
    Senator Heinrich. Do you have the same expectation for cost 
recovery from those other programs? Look at the grazing 
program. Does the grazing program actually cover the cost of 
rangeland management for the Forest Service? Do you apply the 
same standard of cost recovery to all those programs that you 
are asking for outdoor recreation, which is actually creating, 
by far, the largest amount of economic activity in those 
communities?
    Mr. French. Senator, the answer there is that those fees 
that we charge for those various other programs--they are 
bounded by statute, and so they're not----
    Senator Heinrich. So the answer would also be ``no.''
    Mr. French. Yes, the answer is ``no.''
    Senator Heinrich. Okay.
    Mr. French. But that is not really within the discretion of 
the agency.
    Senator Heinrich. No, I understand that, but my point is we 
are not operating on a level playing field. So you are asking 
much more--because you have the flexibility to do so--you are 
asking much more from outdoor recreation in terms of cost 
recovery than you are from any of the other programs.
    Mr. French. In some areas.
    Senator Heinrich. I want to ask Ms. Turner--talk to me a 
little bit about permit reform. Why is it so important? Why is 
fixing permitting such a high priority for companies across the 
spectrum of this economic sector?
    Ms. Turner. I'll try to keep this brief, but I've been 
working on this for about a decade, and I appreciate all of 
your work on this, too, and your team's work.
    Right now, guides and outfitters--thousands of them across 
the country--really are sometimes the first entry point for 
people to get outside. Not only are they creating those 
experiences, they're creating safe experiences. They're 
teaching the public how to get out responsibly. They're 
creating memorable experiences. They're also the partners with 
these agencies on the ground, every day, on the lands and 
waters, understanding what's happening there. And permit reform 
helps streamline the process to eliminate burdens on both the 
private sector and the public sector. It helps with 
indemnification. I'm not sure if this is a widely known issue, 
but right now you can go to a university, a state university, 
and study forestry, and you can't actually get out on the 
forest, legally, through permitting, unless we get this 
indemnification rule passed.
    Senator Heinrich. Because we require indemnification 
requirements that are actually prohibited by state law?
    Ms. Turner. Correct.
    Senator Heinrich. Yes.
    Ms. Turner. It will create additional capacity. There are 
more users than ever, and they are more diverse, and they are 
younger. And a lot of groups want to get out with new affinity 
groups that just don't have staff dedicated to creating a 
permit. And so we need to make it easier for everyone to access 
those. And I'd say last but not least, we are seeing this 
evolving consumer, where one day you might be a kayak company 
and the next day you realize you need to have stand-up 
paddleboards, and you need to go through an entirely new permit 
process just to add stand-up paddleboards to your kayak fleet. 
I mean, that is a very, very outdated system, and it's not 
keeping up with the businesses that need it. It's not keeping 
up with what the agencies need to do their jobs well.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Now we have Senator Daines.
    Senator Daines. Chairman Manchin, thank you. I want to 
begin by thanking the Chairman and the Ranking Member for 
holding this hearing on outdoor recreation. It is a topic of 
high importance for so many Montanans, including this Montanan 
sitting up here today.
    Outdoor recreation is truly a fundamental part of our 
Montana economy. In fact, a recent Department of Commerce 
report found that outdoor recreation accounts for over four 
percent of Montana's GDP. That is the highest percentage 
nationally of any state. That accounts for over 26,000 jobs in 
Montana. But outdoor recreation is more than just a massive 
economic driver in Montana. It is also a part of our heritage 
and our very way of life that we are proud of back home. In 
fact, 98 percent of Montanans say outdoor recreation is 
important to their quality of life. I want to talk to those two 
percent back home that said it was not, but we are at 98 
percent. Eighty-seven percent consider themselves outdoor 
recreation enthusiasts. However, overly complex and 
bureaucratic permitting processes can make it more difficult to 
access our public lands and put a burden on our small 
businesses in Montana.
    I want to thank Senator Heinrich for his leadership on the 
bipartisan SOAR Act, which I am proud to co-sponsor. It aims to 
streamline the permitting process for outfitters and guides who 
operate on public lands. Because of Montana's checkerboard land 
ownership patterns, it is quite common out West that an 
outfitting trip will often cross into multiple land agencies--
sometimes in just one day. Since each federal land agency has a 
separate permitting process, this means that our guides and 
outfitters have to go through multiple departments and 
permitting processes just for one trip. This is duplicative. It 
is inefficient. It costs our agencies as well as our 
outfitters' time and resources and can even impact user 
experience as well as--fundamentally--access.
    Mr. Lambrecht and Mr. French, how will establishing a one-
stop shop for multi-jurisdictional permits such as these save 
agency resources and time and enhance recreational access?
    We will start with Mr. Lambrecht.
    Mr. Lambrecht. Thank you, Senator Daines, I really 
appreciate the question. And I am sure you have talked to a lot 
of the same outfitters and guides that I have, and so I have a 
really strong understanding of the challenges that they have, 
as you mentioned, with the checkerboard of land ownership 
pattern in western states. You know, the outfitters and guides 
have to secure permits from a BLM district office or from a 
Forest Service ranger district, and maybe a state agency, all 
for one day. The same is true of a river guide where, say on 
the Gunnison River, you might start in a park service situation 
and go through BLM or Bureau of Reclamation. So having a one-
stop-shop permitting opportunity for a multi-jurisdictional 
trip certainly makes sense.
    If we can establish a lead agency and, you know, work with 
the sponsor to address certain issues that we might have--
different agencies have different NEPA processes, for example. 
So some of those things need to be ironed out, but we believe 
we can do it. I think the Bureau of Land Management is ideally 
situated to facilitate this process because of a new recreation 
and permitting tracking online reporting system that we have 
implemented in a pilot process where we now have 38 permits 
that we have issued that allows a permittee to apply for and 
receive and pay for a permit all online automatically, and we 
are able to track that as well.
    Senator Daines. Mr. Lambrecht, thank you. That is exactly 
what we are hearing as well. So I appreciate your efforts 
there, too. I want to let Mr. French have a thought on that as 
well.
    Mr. French. I agree, and I think the biggest beneficiaries 
here are the permittees themselves, the folks coming to get 
services from the Federal Government. Anything we can do to 
make it more efficient for them, I think, is helpful.
    Senator Daines. Ms. Turner, from the outdoor industry 
perspective, how would this provision benefit both visitor 
experience and small businesses in a place like Montana?
    Ms. Turner. Yes, I actually heard from a Montana guide and 
outfitter this week, outside of Cooke City, who had this exact 
issue--three different permits for a one-day trip. So three 
different costs. Three different permit structures, costing the 
government time and the permittee time. And, you know, what I 
am thinking about a lot is these guides and outfitters that 
have suffered greatly from closures during COVID, then COVID 
mitigation efforts, then severe wildfire, flood, and drought. 
They need a leg-up right now, more so, you know, maybe than 
even other segments of our sector, and really improving the 
permitting system is the leg-up I think these businesses could 
really use.
    Senator Daines. We are proud of the fact that the onX app 
was developed in Montana, headquartered in Missoula, Montana, 
and if those of you who are onX users, sometimes you look at 
the map--I was out in the backcountry this past weekend--it is 
multicolored, because you see the BLM ground, you see the 
national forest ground, you will see the state ground, and you 
will see private ground and so forth, and I am hoping, despite 
that there are multiple colors there, we could find a 
streamlined way, because at the end of the day, when you are on 
a trip like that, you want to be able to get through 
efficiently as we cut across these various federal agency 
pieces of ground.
    So thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator King [presiding]. On behalf of the Chairman, 
Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you to the Chair and 
Ranking Member for this important hearing. Thank you also to 
the panelists that are here today.
    Let me talk a little bit about S. 1269, which is the 
Environmental Justice in Recreation Permitting Act that I 
introduced. And very briefly, again, it requires DOI and the 
Department of Agriculture to produce an interagency report 
regarding the challenges that the current recreational 
permitting process poses on access to public lands for our 
communities of color, for low-income communities, and for 
tribal and indigenous communities. I think this bill is a 
perfect example of how we can work to address and tear down 
barriers to people accessing federal lands, along with the 
permitting challenges that we have. That is why I support and I 
am a co-sponsor of the SOAR Act as well.
    But to the two agencies, let me ask you this--I also 
understand there are two Executive Orders that were introduced 
by this Administration, and I appreciate your support for S. 
1269. Is there anything else that I need to be aware of, Mr. 
French or Mr. Lambrecht, with regard to this particular 
legislation that you have concerns about, or you would like to 
see some corrections?
    Mr. French. In terms of the legislation, not that I can 
speak of offhand, other than my written comments. I will say 
that, under the Executive Orders, we are already seeing things 
that maybe weren't there before. And I think a report like this 
will be helpful. As an example, one of the issues we see is 
that we, as an agency, don't always advertise when new permit 
opportunities become available, and they tend to go to the same 
permittee over and over again. And so that creates a barrier, 
often, for underserved communities, environmental justice 
communities, and business owners who are looking for those 
things and don't even know they exist. And then if you look at 
some of the things that are being tackled in the other two 
bills, as we have talked about here, the permitting 
requirements are complex, and for a new user, that can be a 
barrier itself. And I think we are uncovering pieces like that, 
that I think will benefit all users, but will be very, very 
helpful in a report like this.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    Mr. Lambrecht. Senator Cortez Masto, I appreciate the 
question. I just wanted to convey to you, the Bureau of Land 
Management is serious about incorporating the serving of 
environmental justice communities into our mission and many 
program areas. One of the challenges that we see and is 
identified in this legislation is identifying exactly where 
those environmental justice issues are. I know the 
Environmental Protection Agency announced this week that it is 
making some progress to try to map those areas, and that would 
be helpful information. I think the National Park Service is 
making great progress on another program that would help us 
identify some of those communities and how we can increase 
their participation in our programs and better serve them.
    So we have a three-year deadline within the legislation to 
report back to Congress on progress in this area, and I expect 
we would be able to accommodate that, but would like to have 
further discussions with your staff on how we can exactly get 
you the information that you are looking for.
    Senator Cortez Masto. I appreciate that. Thank you.
    And so, Ms. Wahl Turner, in your written testimony, you 
touched on some of the economic hardships that, obviously, the 
COVID-19 pandemic continues to pose on small outdoor businesses 
and the gateway communities that rely on our public lands. In 
Nevada, there are many rural towns that serve as gateway 
communities. I am wondering if you could please build on your 
recommendation for a first-of-its-kind outdoor recreation 
package that we are talking about and how the bills being 
discussed today can contribute to our recovery efforts as well?
    Ms. Turner. Sure, thank you for the question.
    We have had a lot of big packages where recreation 
legislation is sort of inserted at the last minute, maybe at 
the end of a session and where things have all come together. 
As a community, there is enough here to merit its own package. 
There are so many systems that need reform. There are so many 
policies that have not been updated. We can kind of live in a 
space where recreation policy can be bipartisan. It can be 
bicameral. And we can get it done and have agreement, like we 
do here today. And, you know, we need it now more than ever as 
we are seeing this surge of visitation. We are seeing 
communities that are not prepared for this. We are also seeing 
communities that are lacking the visitation they usually have. 
So we kind of have both sides of the coin and then the tools 
that the agencies need--the new tools, the updated tools--to be 
able to help support those communities.
    And I appreciate your bill that you introduced as well 
because a lot of the new user groups that are getting out and 
new businesses that are popping up might not know to go to the 
Forest Service district site on page four and look at the 
bottom on how to start a permit process. And so I think all of 
this goes into not just helping businesses and local 
communities, but making sure that everyone has access to these 
places. And if we're going to move into a 21st century 
recreation economy, we should do it with everyone at the table.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Great, thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator King. On behalf of the Chairman, Senator Marshall.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you, Chairman.
    Our nation is undergoing a mental health crisis. I am as 
concerned about mental health as I am the COVID crisis. This 
crisis has been exacerbated by shutdowns. Since I have been in 
Congress five years, we have thrown, I suppose, $10 or $20 
billion at the problems. We have telemedicine. We have new 
drugs, more clinics, and I am not sure we have moved the needle 
at all. But as a physician, I think getting people to the great 
outdoors is a better drug than anything I can prescribe. I am 
especially concerned about our youth and their mental health 
crisis. This past week I got to teach my grandsons how to shoot 
a BB gun and ride a go-kart and how to clean a pheasant. And I 
just saw their eyes get this big, right? And it is being in the 
outdoors, getting them off of these silly things [the Senator 
holds up a cellphone] which do not build your brain at all.
    And what I would ask the panel to do is, as you look at 
this legislation, what would be the emphasis on youth that you 
could build to get youth exposed to it. It is too long of an 
answer, but maybe you could write down a few issues.
    I want to turn the page to conservation for a second. I 
have always said farmers and ranchers were the original 
conservationists. Fisherman and hunters were the next 
conservationists to the table, and the great thing about 
hunters and fishermen and women is that we put our money where 
our mouth is. The Pittman-Robertson Act is an 11 percent excise 
tax from the sale of shotgun shells and shotguns and guns and 
fishing poles. Fred, do fishing poles get taxed as well? I 
cannot remember.
    Mr. Ferguson. It is a different type of program, but the 
same concept, and don't forget archery equipment which----
    Senator Marshall. Archery--oh my God, I am a big bow 
hunter, so all those things. We put our money where our mouth 
is. I had the pleasure of serving on the Wildlife and Parks 
board for five years, and seeing how that money was used, like 
you mentioned, gun ranges being more and more appropriate and 
out there, habitat.
    Fred, Vista Outdoor has always been a huge proponent of 
using that Pittman-Robertson fund. What are some of the great 
things you have seen done with it?
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, I think to your point about the youth 
and how do we make this bill what we want it to be, I think the 
challenge for all of us is we're making decisions, and we're 
creating an outdoor ecosystem for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. 
And so the decisions that are made today, the policies we're 
discussing, it's going to make a difference for that generation 
that's coming up, and, in many ways, that's why we're doing 
it--of course, we just had a huge resurgence of people into the 
system--but we want to retain those people, we also want them 
to motivate and inspire their siblings, their kids, and other 
people they come into contact with to come try it out as well.
    And so I think, you know, viewing this process through the 
lens of decades--not just, you know, the next couple months--is 
really, really important. I think for Vista Outdoor, one of the 
driving principles of our company is when we do well, we can do 
good. And during the last two years, we've been able to create 
a new corporate foundation. And we're using our dollars to 
motivate and activate, you know, diverse users of public lands 
to get kids off screens and into the outdoors. And I mentioned 
the National Forest Foundation partnership. There's just so 
much we can do to take the business success we've had and to 
give it back so that, you know, we can inspire and motivate the 
next generation.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    I want to talk about shortages for a second. I went back to 
a family wedding this weekend, and I had not seen my uncle in 
over a year. This is my uncle who used to take me hunting and 
fishing, and he said ``Roger . . .'' (and I said `oh, boy') ``. 
. . I can't get any primers.'' He reloads shotgun shells. He is 
kind of the semi-pro shooter. There is an issue in the family 
of who is the better shot--him or me, my brother, my dad--and 
of course, we know. But he is out of primers. He cannot get 
primers.
    The shotgun shells that I bought last year for $13 a box 
are now $25 a box. You cannot find five or six magnums for a 
pheasant load. I could find a few--and this is Walmart, a store 
that has access to everything. Typically, we can buy it by the 
case. And I could not find any pheasant load this year. What is 
going on? What is causing the shortages?
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir. So there are a couple of factors at 
play. You know, one, it's the new users that have entered the 
shooting sports. So during the last two years, there have been 
13 million new, first-time participants in the shooting sports. 
And, you know, that's a significant number. And one of the 
things we've noticed is those new users, they're more diverse. 
Forty percent of those users are women and people of color. 
They're more active. So the past trends of purchasing to 
stockpile have gone out the door. People are purchasing to 
consume. And you have seen things like hunting really rise in 
popularity. It's socially distanced. People have had more free 
time. The field-to-table movement is real, driven by, you know, 
popular culture like the MeatEater podcast and his Netflix 
show.
    You know, there's also been a major change in the market, 
in that, for much of the 2020 surge, one of the biggest 
ammunition producers, Remington, was on the sidelines. They had 
gone through a bankruptcy, and they weren't producing in 2020.
    Senator Marshall. Why?
    Mr. Ferguson. They had gone through bankruptcy. They had 
mismanagement and other factors, but our company actually 
acquired that company--that ammunition facility--out of 
bankruptcy in October 2020, and we have been ramping up 
production at that facility. We more than doubled employment. 
We have done 72,000 hours of worker training. We are standing 
up a supply chain. And so, you know, the equivalent is to have 
Charmin not producing toilet paper during the early surges of 
COVID. That's the same analogy.
    And so now that this facility is back up and running again, 
you know, we think we're doing our part to get more supply to 
meet the demand.
    Senator Marshall. When can I tell my uncle he will have his 
primers?
    Thank you. I will yield back.
    Mr. Ferguson. Your time has expired.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator King. Ms. Turner, I wanted to follow up on 
something you mentioned. We had a hearing about a month ago on 
overcrowding in the national parks, and you mention that in 
your testimony. And you mentioned something very interesting 
that we talked about that day that I think should be pursued by 
the National Park Service. And that is the development of an 
app, a kind of Waze app for the national parks so that a 
traveler could look and see--``oh, it is going to be pretty 
crowded this weekend at Yellowstone, maybe I could go to Devils 
Tower.'' Could you elaborate on that a little bit?
    Ms. Turner. Sure, you know, some state park systems across 
the country are already starting to use this geospatial heatmap 
tagging. It uses Google data, smartphone data. Obviously, we 
want to be aware of privacy concerns, but it's happening. 
During COVID, you know, at the depths of COVID, when we were 
all staying home and just running out to the grocery store, you 
might remember, you would put in your grocery store in Google, 
and it might say ``red, it's really crowded right now.'' And 
you'd say, ``I'm not going to go to the grocery store now. I'm 
going to go when my app says it's not going to be crowded.''
    Senator King. So that is a technology that ought to be very 
useful in this situation.
    Ms. Turner. It's there. It's available. I think the private 
sector can be really helpful in this. And what I experienced 
during the past year and a half, even with my local state park 
in Maryland was, I would get to the park, and the parking lot 
was so full that the gate was closed, but had I known, I could 
have gone to another state park, but it's another hour's drive. 
So we just need to give visitors the information. I know that 
the American people want to have a great experience, and, you 
know, I feel like some of the overcrowding could just be fixed 
by people understanding what they're getting into before they 
get there.
    Senator King. Well, I hope our two witnesses from the 
Administration will take this back. We have to use the 
technology to more equitably distribute this surge in 
visitation, which I think is going to continue for many of the 
reasons we have heard today.
    Mr. Chapple. I can address your concerns there.
    We are working on apps within the National Park Service 
currently, and this past week were called by our Acting 
Director to actually ``think big'' with a potential donor that 
wants to come in and help us to actually create these 
heatmaps----
    Senator King. Good.
    Mr. Chapple [continuing]. And use the geospatial data. And 
we're also working across agencies--different types of apps as 
well. And so I think within the next year you would be pleased 
to see what we can come up with, but we look forward to 
actually working with you and any committee on actually pulling 
this together along with the outdoor recreation industry.
    Senator King. Great. Thank you.
    I want to address a second comment to you. Not necessarily 
the subject of this hearing, but these bills are very 
important, and I generally support them. We have a real problem 
with staffing in the National Parks. In 2011, there were 22,000 
FTEs at the National Parks. In 2020, 18,000. In other words, 
staffing is going like this [motioning downward], and then I 
looked up the visitation numbers. Visitation has gone from 278 
million to 327 million. So staffing is like this [motioning 
downward]. Visitation is like this [motioning upward]. You add 
those together and it is about a 30 percent gap from where we 
were in 2011. That is not a subject of authorization here, but 
it is a subject of appropriation.
    Do you agree--and I understand you are subject to the 
budgetary decisions of the Administration, but we have to do 
something about staffing levels or all of this that we are 
talking about--we cannot serve the public adequately if these 
parks are understaffed.
    Mr. Chapple. Thank you for recognizing that, Senator. That 
is something that our staff feels and that our workforce 
relevancy and inclusion directorate is actually looking at 
right now. And so we are looking at it from a data standpoint 
so that we can actually come back to you and other members of 
the Senate to actually prove that we are ready and have that 
need and match it with the ability to actually get more 
appropriations----
    Senator King. Well, I am concerned that it is going to 
reach a point where you are going to have burnout, and it is 
going to exacerbate itself by people just being overstressed by 
the number of visitors and not being able to adequately serve 
them. And it could escalate as a problem. If we are going to 
invite people to the out-of-doors, we have to be able to meet 
their needs. Otherwise, we are like a restaurant that wants to 
double its visitation, but not do anything about its staff or 
its number of tables. We need to add some tables, too. That 
means park space. But I appreciate your attention to that, and 
I hope you will emphasize within the Department that we are 
prepared to help you, but you have to give us the data to do 
so.
    Mr. Chapple. Yes, sir. We will take that back to the 
Department, for sure.
    Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Senator Hickenlooper.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, thank you, Ranking Member.
    What a treat to have you all here. You know, I did eight 
years as Governor of Colorado before I came out to Washington, 
and some of the best times there were dealing with the public 
lands and outdoor recreation and beginning a whole movement 
around--a non-partisan movement--around clean air, clean water, 
and public lands. And I admire so much what each of you are 
doing. I think back to where we started out--in the western 
part of Colorado, we had an old utility property that was badly 
polluted, and we put something on it called Cameo, which was 
for sporting clays. It is almost like a golf course, except you 
do not use a golf cart to go around, you have an ATV. But you 
go to each site to shoot. And it took a few years to get it up, 
but I was out nine months ago, and it is breathtaking. Right 
across the street--or the canyon, I guess you would say we have 
in Palisade--we have the Palisade Plunge, which is a 6,000-foot 
mountain biking trail that is continually going down. These 
things attract people from other states and are slowly building 
a reputation. Governor Herbert was the first--Utah was the 
first state to have an Office of Outdoor Recreation, but we 
were proud to be the second. This had a huge impact on our 
economy. And it is remarkable--if you look at those states that 
have had strong economies, most of them have very strong 
outdoor recreation industries and try to make sure that we have 
companies like Vista Outdoor out there.
    Anyway, I want to turn the attention to the more urban 
setting and the issues around access. And I realize there are 
access issues with a lot of the public lands, where we need 
better parking lots and new points of entry. But I am 
introducing, with Senator Padilla, the Parks, Jobs, and Equity 
Act, which would help create a federal grant program to make 
sure that we are able to provide resources to state and local 
governments to invest in new parks and green spaces to expand 
that access. One out of three Americans--that includes 28 
million kids--do not have access within a half mile to a green 
space. And, you know, they are denied that opportunity of 
getting this different type of renewable energy, the energy the 
people bring back when they have been out exercising or 
recreating in a green space.
    I will start with Mr. French and Mr. Lambrecht and Mr. 
Chapple. How have we seen an acceleration in this pressure, 
this lack of access? And do you think it is appropriate that we 
begin looking at providing resources and let the Federal 
Government and the public lands movement provide more access to 
urban areas?
    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator, for the question.
    And so there are two things that I would say. One is, you 
know, our mission is actually much wider than just the 
management of our national forests and grasslands. So through 
our state and private programs, we have a number of programs 
that are focused just on these issues. If you look at our urban 
forestry program, our urban forestry research programs, or our 
grant programs that are dedicated to building green spaces in 
urban communities--and our science is showing us that, you 
know, for a number of these communities, having those green 
spaces creates better community wellness, better mental 
health--and so I think continued investments in those areas are 
critically important, as well as identifying those barriers of 
lack of access of communities to their public lands. I think 
you have to look at both of those in conjunction.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Right.
    Mr. French. So I'll leave it there.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Lambrecht.
    Mr. Lambrecht. Thank you, Senator Hickenlooper.
    You know, we certainly support the goal of your 
legislation. It is an important one. And, you know, as you 
understand, the BLM states are a little more rural than many 
others, but that doesn't mean we don't have opportunities to 
increase recreational visits from urban areas. I think that is 
a high priority for us and something that we are keeping track 
of and looking for opportunities through our programs, such as 
the Land and Water Conservation Fund or Great American Outdoors 
Act. But I know Mr. Chapple from the Park Service has some 
additional details. Some of their programs are even more 
focused for that purpose.
    So with your permission?
    Senator Hickenlooper. Sure. Mr. Chapple.
    Mr. Chapple. Thanks, Mark.
    Thank you for this question, Senator. The National Park 
Service is supportive of the bill that you are putting forward 
with Senator Padilla. We are successful with our Outdoor 
Recreation Legacy Partnership (ORLP) program through the Land 
and Water Conservation Fund. And so we see that there is an 
opportunity to expand on that through your bill. And what we 
would like to do is to work with you with the language of the 
bill to actually bring it into alignment with the way in which 
we are currently managing the ORLP. And so, and really in 
that--finding the efficiencies, and the way that your bill can 
complement the way in which the ORLP program is operated right 
now. It's central to actually have urban populations, 
underserved populations, people of color to have access to 
recreation. And so that rounds out the opportunity.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Absolutely.
    If I can indulge just for an extra 60 seconds, or do you 
want me to get off the stage?
    Senator Barrasso. That is up to Senator Wyden. He is next.
    Senator Wyden. Sure, please.
    Senator Hickenlooper. I would like to hear both Ms. Turner 
and Mr. Ferguson answer that quickly.
    Ms. Turner. Yes, in a survey of 14,000 cities and towns, 
those serving underrepresented communities had half the park 
space and served five times as many people in those parks, and 
they were, as you can imagine, not as quality of park spaces. 
So it's really imperative--your bill and the efforts of the 
agencies. And I would say this is one area over the past five 
or ten years that I have seen the agencies really double down 
on, and we've been so appreciative of them, as Mr. French said, 
kind of getting outside of their traditional Forest Service 
jurisdiction or National Park Service jurisdiction and saying 
``how do we get to the people?''--not just bringing the people 
to the places.
    And so I think we can all work together on ORLP and those 
programs and your bill to get more people access.
    Mr. Ferguson. So I think we have talked about this in 
transportation circles, but e-bikes can be a really innovative 
solution for getting people from point A to point B. We have 
seen the National Park Service embrace e-bikes as a mode of 
transportation within park units themselves, but I think within 
diverse communities that we're talking about, I think an e-bike 
could be a creative solution to get people from the population 
centers to wherever that recreation is. e-Bikes can be more 
cost-effective than a car or a large bus. They're carbon 
neutral. And I think that can be a part of the solution, and I 
will tell you we have an e-bike company now in Eagle, Colorado. 
So that's new as of this year, and I just want to make sure you 
knew that.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, I was all for e-bikes, and I did 
not even know that.
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, sir.
    Senator Hickenlooper. So glad to hear that.
    Thank you all for your time and your service. I yield back.
    The Chairman [presiding]. Senator Wyden.
    Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And Mr. 
Chairman, I want to thank you and Senator Barrasso for holding 
this very important hearing. Terrific panel. As Chairman of the 
Finance Committee, I have been juggling a lot today, but I have 
been watching little parts of the discussion. It has been 
terrific.
    Here is my interest here: so many of the rules as it 
relates to rural America and particularly recreation have not 
kept up with the times. I mean, we know recreation now is a 
major economic engine for rural America, and I am always struck 
by areas where, basically, the Federal Government just has 
missed the need to modernize systems. I see a number of my 
colleagues on the dais today who are co-sponsors of my 
legislation to permanently authorize the Craft Beverage 
Modernization and Tax Reform Act--hugely important for 
breweries, for example, and restaurants in rural America. We 
have now gotten it permanent. And a number of those rural 
businesses that are dependent on recreation have come to me and 
said that law basically helped me survive the pandemic. So I am 
so pleased that you are interested in working with us on these 
issues, and I know a number of my colleagues have been 
outlining important measures as well.
    So this morning, I want to talk about the other big 
initiative I have in this area, and that is with Blake Moore of 
Utah. It is a bipartisan bill--the Recreation Not Red Tape Act. 
And again, much like the laws involving breweries and rural 
restaurants, the rules have not kept up with the times. What 
got me interested--as recreation is a hugely important business 
in my home state--was telling me that they get up on the phone 
in the middle of the night calling agencies and the like, and 
holding and whatnot, for what seemed like interminable amounts 
of time, and they just could not cut through the bureaucracy 
and red tape and get their permits and their passes and the 
like.
    And so that is what Congressman Moore and I are seeking to 
do is to streamline the rules as it relates to permitting, 
emphasizing recreation, making sure that people have multiple 
uses of our public lands. That is a bedrock. I am looking at 
all of my western colleagues on the Committee. That is a 
bedrock principle of public lands, so we are protecting that. 
But we are really streamlining the system so we can wring more 
value out of opportunities to be outdoors and help our small 
businesses. And to me, this is much like the Craft Beverage 
Modernization Act, where nobody got up in the morning on these 
recreation permits and said, ``let's now be rotten to small, 
rural businesses.'' I see my friend, Senator Hickenlooper here, 
who comes from small business and understands this. We do not 
have anybody getting up in these agencies saying they want to 
be rotten to small businesses. What they do is they get up in 
the morning, and they say, ``My God, I have this big rule book. 
And the thing was written kind of in the Dark Ages.'' As 
Senator Hickenlooper knows because he is in the business, when 
we were working on the Craft Beverage Modernization Act, some 
of those rules almost went back to Prohibition--not quite that 
far--but they were from the Dark Ages. We are dealing with the 
same thing in terms of some of the recreation rules, and that 
is what Congressman Moore and I are trying to do with the 
Recreation Not Red Tape idea.
    So first question for you, Ms. Turner, if I might--as you 
know, we establish these national recreation areas, which we 
think can really be a magnet for helping small recreation-
oriented businesses. And I think you are pretty much in the 
ballpark with us on that. Can you just give us your thoughts?
    Ms. Turner. Yes, thank you so much for the question, 
Senator Wyden, and for your amazing work on this, and your 
team's work over the years on this bill.
    We agree with you completely that the recreation framework 
has not kept up with evolving visitor experience, demand, 
climate change, and technologies. I have heard stories of 
permits or passes actually being on framework that's more for 
the extractive industry than recreation, just because there are 
not tools for our industry. And what the NRA (National 
Recreation Area) portion of your bill creates is a real tool 
for agencies during their planning process to look for 
recreation-quality landscapes. Right now, we are fitting a 
round peg in a square hole a lot of the times where agencies 
need to go out and look for wild and scenic river qualities. 
They need to look for wilderness qualities. But what if they 
see someone hunting and fishing on an ATV, backpacking, and 
biking? What is that area called? How are they going to manage 
for it in the future?
    And if we could have, you know, ``National Recreation 
Area'' being looked for throughout the planning process, and 
then being managed for as the highest use of the land. And that 
doesn't mean it's excluding other uses. That just means we're 
talking about recreation as a priority in this landscape. 
Businesses will really be motivated by that. As Fred knows and 
can maybe speak to, the business sees that this is going to be 
an area that's managed for sustainable recreation for years. 
You're going to get those guides and outfitters, you're going 
to get the breweries that go along with it. You're actually 
going to get the technology and healthcare companies that want 
to live and work and play near these great recreation assets. 
So it's even more than the recreation economy. Sustainable, 
well-planned recreation assets can create economic resurgence 
that goes well beyond our industry.
    Senator Wyden. Let me just--really quickly, because I am 
already pressing on my time--a question for you, Mr. French, 
with respect to the Forest Service: what we worked very hard to 
do working with the agencies and the like is to make sure that 
we did not affect other multiple uses in existing or future 
national recreation designations, requiring the agency to 
unilaterally go out and do a bunch of different stuff. I would 
just like to have on the record your assessment because we 
worked very closely with you to make sure that the Forest 
Service is not going out under this bill to have to manage a 
bunch of areas that are not already designated as recreation 
areas. We wanted to build on the existing system--strengthen 
the existing system. Could you just speak quickly to that?
    Mr. French. Yes, thank you, Senator. And yes, you worked 
very closely with us, addressed our concerns, and the way that 
we read it right now, it would be very compatible. It wouldn't 
create those issues.
    Senator Wyden. Great. Big thanks, everybody, and I just 
want you to know I think some of the work you are doing is just 
as important as it gets in the rural West because this is not 
your grandfather's economy in the rural West, and recreation--
huge economic engine--and it is just wonderful to have you and 
I appreciate the collaboration.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
    Following on my colleague, I could not agree more. I want 
to thank the Chairman and the Ranking Member for this important 
hearing. The outdoor economy is very important to the State of 
Washington, with over 100,000 people employed in it, and it 
generates about $5.8 billion in compensation overall. So I am 
very excited about all sorts of land and recreation 
opportunities.
    I think I will turn to you, Mr. French. Do you anticipate 
trails on our federal public lands to still be closed or 
inaccessible if additional funding is not provided for 
maintenance or repair?
    Mr. French. Yes. If it is not commensurate with the backlog 
that we have, which, you know, there are a series of critical 
trails right now that if we are not able to do the maintenance 
of, we will probably have to temporarily close them until we do 
have the funding for it.
    Senator Cantwell. Can you give us a list of those?
    Mr. French. We can get you a list. Yes, we can provide 
that. It might take us a little bit of time, but we can do 
that.
    Senator Cantwell. Well, I think, you know, we all 
participated in a very landmark piece of legislation, and we 
want to know its effect, and we want to know what is going to 
get done, and we want to know what is not going to get done.
    Mr. French. Right.
    Senator Cantwell. So we, as Senator Wyden was saying, and 
you know, I am a big believer--this is for many, many, many, 
many communities in my state. I was just on the tram this 
morning and happened to strike up a conversation with a 
photographer, where he was like, ``yes, I went to Olympic, and 
here is what I did, and, you know, here are all the places.'' 
This matters to have these trails and facilities open to these 
communities.
    For all the witnesses--the Great American Outdoors Act 
addresses nearly half of the public maintenance backlog over 
the next five years. In your view, what does this mean for 
overall safety and accessibility? Are there recreational 
opportunities that we still need to address because of what are 
potential trail closures? So just go down the dais or whoever 
wants to jump in first.
    Mr. Ferguson. Yes, I mean, there's no doubt the maintenance 
backlog wasn't going to be solved in one single swoop. So 
there's a lot of work to be done. One thing I've talked about a 
couple times today is that we launched a corporate foundation, 
and one of the grants that we initiated was with the National 
Forest Foundation so that we could actually put some of our 
dollars to work in supporting that foundation and doing trail 
development, you know, wildfire mitigation in forests in and 
around locations where we have businesses. So I think, from our 
perspective, you know, we want to do our part to help and be 
part of the solution.
    Senator Cantwell. Well, this is big business for us, as I 
just mentioned.
    So anybody else?
    Ms. Turner.
    Ms. Turner. Yes, thank you for the question. Knowing where 
the investments are being made, as you mentioned, is really 
helpful for the private sector so that we can plan out. So if 
we know the water system in a forest will be repaired and maybe 
a nearby campground won't make it on that backlog list, there 
might be some public-private opportunities to repair that 
campground now that we know that the infrastructure is going to 
be intact for years to come. But I do worry about the growing 
backlog with more severe weather as it goes on. We'll hopefully 
be talking to this Committee soon about some sort of 
reauthorization of GAOA (Great American Outdoors Act) or how we 
can continue to make sure that we're getting down the 
maintenance backlog and then working with our sector to make 
sure that when we're repairing these places, we have the 
funding stream to keep them off the maintenance backlog.
    Senator Cantwell. I love the idea of cooperation and trying 
to match resources to get us even more.
    Mr. Chapple or Mr. Lambrecht.
    Mr. Chapple. Yes, thanks for that question, Senator.
    At the National Park Service, the Legacy Restoration Fund 
is working on parks as well as rivers and trails in terms of 
our maintenance backlog. And what is happening is that monies 
that are in other funding sources are being freed up so that we 
can then apply those to things that don't make it onto the 
maintenance list. And so we are able then to actually address 
deferred maintenance in other areas. And so there is a benefit 
that is happening from the GAOA funding that was unintended, 
but our parks and our rivers and trails are excited about the 
additional work that we can do to bring things into proper 
alignment and then working with our partners at the same time 
to activate those spaces.
    Senator Cantwell. Yes, Mr. Lambrecht.
    Mr. Lambrecht. Senator Cantwell, I am really glad that you 
asked this question. The Great American Outdoors Act is a 
significant achievement that benefits all of us land management 
agencies. And I have seen a recent list of all of the different 
projects that have been funded, and I know there is planning 
going on right now for the next round of GAOA projects--
everything from trails to bathrooms to campgrounds. We have 
lost entire campgrounds to wildfire. So the need is 
significant, and we really look forward to working on those 
projects going forward. And I have to say that the recently 
passed infrastructure legislation is a major help in that 
regard as well.
    But I would be happy to provide you a list of the projects 
that have been addressed through the Great American Outdoors 
Act, if you----
    Senator Cantwell. That would be great.
    Well, we had our big anniversary, and we increased access 
to the parks, which was great, and made it more affordable, but 
I consider the next 100 years of the park investment the Great 
American Outdoors Act and the investment we made. So let us 
just figure out how and where we are coming up short or what 
else we need to do to coordinate.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Kelly.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
you and Chairman Manchin for holding this hearing today on 
legislation to enhance opportunities for outdoor recreation. 
The agenda today included a bill that you introduced with 
Chairman Manchin--the Outdoor Recreation Act. And I would like 
to highlight a provision in the bill that would help Arizona 
businesses and communities that depend on our national parks. 
The bill would direct the National Park Service to work with 
local communities to keep roads, overlooks, and other 
facilities open during shoulder seasons.
    On the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, at Grand Canyon 
National Park, our shoulder seasons are typically mid-March and 
late November. And for the North Rim, it is mid-October and 
mid-May. And these are the months when park operations wind 
down or close for the winter, but as any Arizonan will tell 
you, the shoulder seasons are often considered the best time of 
the year to visit the Grand Canyon. It is when I often go down 
to the bottom. I think it is really spectacular coming down 
South Kaibab Trail and Bright Angel Trail in November.
    So Ms. Wahl, would you agree that reopening or extending 
park operations for an extra week or two would have a big 
impact on jobs and local tax revenue?
    Ms. Turner. Yes, I really appreciate this provision and 
appreciate you calling it out. I think it will also disperse 
visitation. These are the visitation issues that we have been 
talking about--the overcrowding. Having those extra weeks, that 
is a great time for people who can accommodate not going in the 
summer months to the Grand Canyon, and also it helps gateway 
communities have that income for longer and not be as 
seasonal--be more year-round. I tried to go camping in 
Shenandoah in October on an 80-degree day, and they're starting 
to wind down camping. Well, it's 80 degrees in October now. It 
should be open for camping.
    So I think that's across the board, and extending shoulder 
seasons has a benefit for all involved.
    Senator Kelly. Yes, it could be a little icy at the top on 
the South Rim. Now make sure you have some crampons on for the 
first part of the trail, but when you get down to the bottom in 
late November, it is a spectacular place to be, and we would 
see hundreds of thousands of people come through there that 
time of year. So thank you for that.
    Mr. French, great to see you again today. You will recall 
that the last time we spoke was in October, when I asked you 
and the Forest Service Chief, Chief Moore, to travel to Arizona 
and meet with 4FRI stakeholders. You know, more work needs to 
be done to get 4FRI back on track, but please convey my 
gratitude to Chief Moore and the Forest Service team that 
visited Flagstaff last month. I wish I could have joined you 
for that trip, but I heard some really positive feedback. So 
thank you for doing that, and, you know, the release of the 
funding to priority for some of the forest thinning projects 
and for the Museum Fire flood mitigation is greatly appreciated 
in those communities.
    We are going to follow up with you on next steps for 4FRI, 
but again, thank you for being so responsive on this issue.
    And I yield back the remainder of my time.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks. We are just about ready to 
wrap this up.
    Quick question or two for Mr. Ferguson--our Outdoor 
Recreation Act would ensure the shooting ranges are available 
to sportsmen and women on each national forest and within the 
Bureau of Land Management district. Can you talk about the 
recreation access, safety, and conservation benefits that would 
stem from this measure?
    Mr. Ferguson. Absolutely. So you know, there's been a huge 
influx in new participants in the shooting sports, and, you 
know, giving these new shooters a place to go is really smart 
policy on a couple of different levels. You know, one is 
safety. Range instructors, range managers--they respect and 
prioritize safety in ways that is unrivaled and unmatched. And 
so the more we can get new shooters and existing shooters to 
shooting ranges where there's supervision and oversight--we're 
promoting that respect and safety that we all agree is needed.
    You know, the range--also the more places you have that are 
structured, the less likelihood of dispersed shooting just out 
on the public lands, which can lead to ricochets and other 
dangerous situations. And you know, the Pittman-Robertson Trust 
Fund, which is a conservation fund dedicated to wildlife 
habitat conservation and enhancements, receives 85 percent of 
its funding through target shooting. And so the more we do to 
promote and encourage target shooting, you know, we're going to 
be supporting that Pittman-Robertson Trust Fund, which goes 
back into conservation, which, during the course of its 
existence has invested more than $13 billion directly into 
wildlife and habitat conservation.
    Senator Barrasso. Good.
    Ms. Turner, I think about how gateway communities--and in 
Wyoming it is Cody, Dubois, Jackson--play a pivotal role as 
entry and exit points for our national parks or forests and 
public lands. Likewise, these communities do benefit from a 
strong visitorship to the recreational destinations. According 
to the National Park Service, about 3.3 million visitors spend 
$600 million in gateway communities that neighbor national 
parks--lots of money. How critical is a strong outdoor economy 
to our major gateway communities?
    Ms. Turner. As we've seen over the past year and a half, 
it's really critical to these gateway communities. It's 
economic diversification, for sure. It's also a way to attract 
retirees and other sectors that can provide, you know, tax 
revenue for gateway communities. So when we think about 
important recreation assets, we think beyond just the 
recreation economy. We think about the job seekers and people 
who want to live and work and play in these areas.
    Senator Barrasso. Could I ask you about invasive species? 
Zebra mussels have been an issue, caused significant harm to 
the ecosystems and water infrastructure. The Outdoor Recreation 
Act would protect against aquatic invasive species by improving 
coordination between federal land management agencies and their 
non-federal partners, as you know. The bill would also help 
state and local partners conduct inspections and 
decontamination of watercraft in reservoirs that are 
administered by the Department of the Interior.
    So in addition to the environmental benefits, is it your 
view that measures like this could actually also improve 
recreational activities--boating, fishing?
    Ms. Turner. Yes, that's absolutely correct. More people 
bought boats last year than ever before. So we need to be 
really aware there are more people boating, and what this bill 
does is--it allows us to diminish the invasive species impact 
on the waterway, but not create a burden for people wanting to 
get on the water in their boats or fishing. So it's a win-win 
for both conservation and recreationists.
    Senator Barrasso. Great.
    Any of the other members have additional questions?
    Senator King. I do not have additional questions. I wanted 
to ask Mr. Chapple to convey my congratulations to the first 
Director of the National Park Service in five years, which we 
confirmed a few weeks ago. Please convey my congratulations and 
best wishes to Mr. Sams.
    Mr. Chapple. I will do that, sir. Thank you.
    Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Well, thank you to all the witnesses.
    Senator Hickenlooper, anything else?
    [No response.]
    Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you to all the witnesses for 
joining us this morning for the discussion. Members are going 
to have until the close of business tomorrow to submit 
additional questions for the record.
    So, with that, the Committee stands adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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