[Senate Hearing 117-456]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-456
THE POTENTIAL NON-ELECTRIC APPLICATIONS
OF CIVILIAN NUCLEAR ENERGY
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 4, 2021
__________
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
46-201 WASHINGTON : 2023
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
Renae Black, Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
Rory Stanley, Professional Staff Member
Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
Bradley Williams, Republican INL Detailee
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West
Virginia....................................................... 1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
Wyoming........................................................ 2
WITNESSES
Bragg-Sitton, Dr. Shannon, Division Director for Integrated
Energy and Storage Systems, Idaho National Laboratory.......... 4
Chodak III, Dr. Paul, Executive Vice President, Generation,
American Electric Power........................................ 10
Guastella, Michael J., Executive Director, Council on
Radionuclides and Radiopharmaceuticals, Inc.................... 17
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Barrasso, Hon. John:
Opening Statement............................................ 2
Bragg-Sitton, Dr. Shannon:
Opening Statement............................................ 4
Written Testimony............................................ 6
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 45
Report of the Versatile Test Reactor Working Group on Isotope
Production, September 2021................................. 53
Chodak III, Dr. Paul:
Opening Statement............................................ 10
Written Testimony............................................ 12
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 67
Guastella, Michael J.:
Opening Statement............................................ 17
Written Testimony............................................ 19
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 69
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
Opening Statement............................................ 1
TerraPower:
Statement for the Record..................................... 76
Young, Kayla:
Letter for the Record........................................ 78
THE POTENTIAL NON-ELECTRIC
APPLICATIONS OF CIVILIAN
NUCLEAR ENERGY
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THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
Normally, when we talk about nuclear energy, we are talking
about electricity generation, but today we will be discussing
the non-electric applications of nuclear energy and systems
integration. It is the technology set that will truly transform
how we think about and use energy. I want to thank our
witnesses, who will provide us with insights on how we can best
deploy these technologies over the next decade. Earlier this
year, we had a hearing that focused on the importance of
maintaining our current nuclear fleet and developing advanced
reactors. That hearing set the stage nicely for this one, as
developing additional value streams for nuclear technologies
will help their competitiveness in electricity markets. In
addition, being pioneers in this endeavor will allow the U.S. a
competitive edge in the international market. Reducing
emissions in the industrial sector has been identified as a
significant challenge that we must tackle in order to meet our
climate goals. The U.S. has had success in lowering emissions
in the electricity and transportation sectors due to advances
spearheaded by the Department of Energy (DOE) in energy
efficiency, renewables, batteries, and electric vehicles.
But as we have progressed in these sectors, emissions from
the industrial sector have increased by about 69 percent since
1990. The industrial sector also represents a significant
portion of global emissions, accounting for approximately 28
percent of total greenhouse gas emissions. As developing
economies begin to shift to more energy-intensive industries,
the U.S. must be on the cutting edge in developing the
technologies required to decarbonize industry. This shift is an
enormous opportunity to deploy new technologies domestically
and abroad to promote job growth here in the U.S. as the demand
for nuclear technologies that reduce emissions and deliver
industrial products, such as hydrogen, chemical feedstock,
district heating, water purification, and building materials
increases.
Last year we enacted the Nuclear Integrated Energy Systems
Research, Development, Demonstration, and Commercial
Application Program as a part of the Energy Act of 2020 and we
are fortunate to have Dr. Shannon Bragg-Sitton, who is leading
this crucial endeavor, with us today. The Department of Energy
and the national laboratories are developing energy systems
designed to be jointly operated with nuclear energy to reduce
emissions in both the electric and non-electric sectors while
maximizing energy production and efficiencies. In short, this
program will help commercialize technologies to reduce
emissions for water purification, heat for industrial
processes, microgrids, district heating, and other various
applications, all through the use of nuclear energy. The
Department of Energy is leading a tri-lab consortium, including
Idaho National Laboratory (INL), the National Renewable Energy
Laboratory (NREL), and National Energy Technology Laboratory
(NETL) in Morgantown, West Virginia, to pioneer the
technologies to transform how we use energy.
As we begin this transition, it is my hope that we can
commercially deploy these types of technologies in my State of
West Virginia. However, West Virginia has had a ban on the
construction of nuclear power plants for over two decades. This
is something that I would like to see changed, and I have
spoken to all of my friends in the legislature and I think they
understand the need and the urgency also. I believe advanced
nuclear reactors hold enormous potential to provide
opportunities to communities across the country with zero-
emission baseload power. I am very excited to get the utility
perspective today from Dr. Paul Chodak on how we can best
deploy the next generation of nuclear.
With that, I am going turn to my friend, Ranking Member
Barrasso, for his opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, for
holding this very important hearing today.
Nuclear technology is fundamental to meeting America's
energy, environmental, and national security needs. Nuclear
energy is necessary for reliable, affordable, and resilient
electric service. Now, more than ever, we need to be looking
for opportunities to expand the use of nuclear energy. The U.S.
currently has 93 operating commercial reactors in 28 states.
These reactors provide 20 percent of our electricity. They
provide the majority of our carbon-free energy. These reactors
could safely remain online for decades.
Yet many of our nuclear reactors are facing political and
economic pressures to shut down. Since 2013, 12 reactors have
shut down. This trend needs to stop. Earlier this year, this
Committee took an important step by advancing the Nuclear
Credit Program. But that program will only provide a temporary
fix. Reckless federal and state policies are pushing excess
amounts of wind and solar energy onto the grid. The result is
an oversupply of electric capacity that forces nuclear reactors
off the grid. In some parts of the country, these policies have
caused wholesale electricity prices to drop below zero. Nuclear
operators have been left with no choice but to consider ways to
reduce costs, to increase revenues, or to shut down.
Today, we are discussing potential expanded revenue
streams. Some nuclear operators are pursuing non-electric
applications and other specialized uses. Several nuclear
operators are making or considering investments in hydrogen and
ammonia production. Others are looking at powering Bitcoin
mining data centers. Nuclear operators are also considering the
production of medical isotopes--elements used in the diagnosis
and treatment of diseases like cancer. Each of these innovative
applications presents an opportunity to retain our existing
nuclear power plants.
Innovation will be the key to reestablishing America's
leadership in nuclear energy. Over the next decade we expect
advanced nuclear reactors to be in operation. Advanced reactors
will be smaller, safer, and more efficient. They will also
generate less nuclear waste. Some may even run on previously
used nuclear fuel. My home State of Wyoming will host
TerraPower's Natrium reactor, which will be the first of its
kind anywhere in the world. It is designed to generate and
store electricity. Like existing reactors, advanced nuclear
technologies will enable new market opportunities beyond the
electricity sector. Unlike existing reactors, which require
modifications to enable these applications, advanced reactors
are specifically designed for multiple purposes.
The heat from advanced nuclear reactors can drive a variety
of industrial processes, and can improve the efficiency and
economics of chemical hydrogen and medical isotope production.
Nuclear heat can contribute to enhanced oil recovery. This heat
can also clean up wastewater and turn salt water from our
oceans into fresh water. In addition, small advanced reactors
are well-suited for specialized electricity generation. The
Department of Defense is considering transportable
microreactors for powering remote bases. These same reactors
could also provide needed power for disaster recovery.
Microreactors will even power missions in space.
We must ensure American technologies are leading this
global expansion of nuclear energy. Today we are going to hear
about exciting new applications for nuclear energy. These new
applications can help make nuclear energy profitable. They will
also create new markets around the world for American-made
nuclear technologies. So thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, for
holding this important hearing. I look forward to hearing from
our panel of experts and look forward to the testimony.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
Now let me welcome our highly qualified panel of witnesses
for their opening statements. We are going to start with Dr.
Shannon Bragg-Sitton. She is Division Director of the
Integrated Energy and Storage System, Idaho National Lab. Thank
you for being here.
STATEMENT OF DR. SHANNON BRAGG-SITTON, DIVISION DIRECTOR FOR
INTEGRATED ENERGY AND STORAGE SYSTEMS, IDAHO NATIONAL
LABORATORY
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Good morning. I want to thank Chairman
Manchin and Ranking Member Barrasso for scheduling this
important hearing and for the opportunity today to participate.
As you said, my name is Shannon Bragg-Sitton, and I am the
Director of the Integrated Energy and Storage Systems Division
at Idaho National Laboratory. INL is the nation's center for
nuclear energy research and development, and INL works with
industry to develop and deploy advanced reactors that will
power American prosperity into the future. We also lead DOE's
Light Water Reactor Sustainability (LWRS) Program, which is
working to extend the operating lifetime of our high-performing
nuclear fleet. A key focus for both of these programs is
extending the use of nuclear energy beyond electricity
generation.
Integrated energy systems refer to power plants that are
able to leverage multiple energy sources to meet a variety of
energy demands. These systems provide us with many benefits.
They provide the ability to couple diverse energy sources such
as nuclear, renewable, and fossil with carbon capture, allowing
us to leverage the benefits of each resource. This provides us
with more efficient energy use, which helps the environment
while keeping consumer costs down. And they also increase
revenues for plant owners by providing multiple product streams
and they offer the potential for cleaner, lower-cost, and more
efficient transportation and industrial applications. These
integrated systems will help us to stabilize the grid through
their flexible operation. It is exciting to be examining their
non-grid applications, which could include water desalination,
production of clean hydrogen, production of heat and hydrogen
to support industrial processes, such as steel manufacturing or
to produce synthetic fuels for transportation or ammonia-based
fertilizers for the agricultural sector.
This isn't just theoretical. We are partnering with the
private sector to demonstrate how existing nuclear plants can
use their excess heat and electricity when it is not needed by
the grid in order to produce hydrogen. Today, hydrogen is
primarily produced by breaking down methane, which also
produces carbon dioxide, and if we instead use non-emitting
nuclear energy to produce hydrogen from water, we can realize
enormous emissions savings across multiple industries. And
these projects are an important part of DOE's Earthshot
Initiative, which aims to reduce the cost of clean hydrogen to
decarbonize industrial applications as well as to realize a
net-zero economy by 2050. So we are partnering with a tri-
utility consortium that will first demonstrate clean hydrogen
production using water electrolysis at the Energy Harbor Davis-
Besse plant in Ohio. That will be followed by higher
temperature steam electrolysis demonstrated at an Xcel nuclear
plant in Minnesota. And in the third phase, we will demonstrate
larger-scale hydrogen production at the Palo Verde Generating
Station in Arizona in partnership with Arizona Public Service.
Additionally, INL, Argonne National Laboratory, and the
National Renewable Energy Laboratory are partnered with Exelon
generation, which is also demonstrating hydrogen production at
their Nine Mile Point plant in New York. These projects will
produce hydrogen in the next year. These efforts will enhance
grid stability and will create an additional revenue stream for
these nuclear plants. This is becoming more important as the
financial pressures on our existing fleet are increasing as
evidenced by recent plant closures. Because traditional nuclear
plants operate
24/7, they are impacted by negative power prices, which occur
when generation appears simultaneously with reduced electricity
demand, and these situations are becoming more prevalent as we
have more deployment of variable renewables. Hydrogen
production will enable these plants to become more profitable
as they continue to produce more than half of our nation's
carbon-free electricity and contribute roughly $600 billion
annually to our economy.
Finally, I want to emphasize that integrated systems
research is not just about the current fleet. Advanced reactors
that are in development today and planned for deployment within
the next decade are designed to operate at higher temperatures,
run more efficiently, and provide greater flexibility. Working
in concert with renewables, these advanced reactors can power
microgrids in isolated communities, supply heat and electricity
to remote mining applications, produce synthetic fuels, and
much more. These advanced reactors could even be sited at
retiring coal plants to ensure that reliable, affordable
electricity remains available for these communities. All of
this is vital to our nation's economy and environment as we
develop technologies that will create clean energy jobs, reduce
land use and the impact on air and water, promote energy
independence, and increase our nation's economic
competitiveness.
So thank you again for the opportunity to testify here
today. I look forward to answering any questions you may have.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Bragg-Sitton follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank you.
Next, we are going to have Dr. Paul Chodak, Executive Vice
President, Generation, American Electric Power (AEP).
STATEMENT OF DR. PAUL CHODAK III, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT,
GENERATION, AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER
Dr. Chodak. Good morning Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member
Barrasso, and members of the Committee. As Executive Vice
President responsible for AEP's generation assets, I am
privileged to be part of one of the nation's largest
electricity producers, with approximately 31,000 megawatts of
diverse generation capacity, including more than 5,900
megawatts of renewable energy and 2,100 megawatts of nuclear
energy at our Cook Nuclear Plant on Lake Michigan. American
Electric Power also plans to grow its renewable generation
portfolio by approximately 16.6 gigawatts, which will put our
capacity at 50 percent renewables by 2030. With our aggressive
plan to invest in renewable resources, AEP is on track to
achieve an 80 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions
from 2000 levels by 2030 and has committed to achieving net
zero by 2050. However, the technology to ensure that we are
able to reliably and cost-effectively achieve net zero is still
in development. We need a diverse mix of solutions because the
best solution will likely vary by region.
Fossil generation with carbon capture may be the most
effective solution where local geology supports CO2
storage, while advanced nuclear generation sources can make the
most sense in regions where the geology is not good for
CO2 sequestration and long-
distance pipelines are impractical. As a U.S. Navy nuclear
submariner and later as a Los Alamos National Lab scientist
where I could prevent non-state actors from developing nuclear
explosives, I had a clear mission of which I was very proud.
Today, my mission is to provide our customers with safe,
reliable--and when I say reliable, I mean 24 hours a day, 365
days a year, regardless of the weather--at as low a cost as
possible. Our modern way of life depends on the successful
execution of that mission. The United States operates the
largest and highest-performing fleet of nuclear reactors in the
world. The fleet already safely provides over half the carbon-
free electricity consumed in the United States. Small modular
reactors, or SMRs--their designs go further by incorporating
decades of operating experience and technology improvements to
produce even safer and inherently safe reactor designs. Several
advanced reactors are currently in the design and development
phase and will complement renewables by generating carbon-free
electricity.
In addition, they are also capable of multiple non-electric
functions such as hydrogen production. Hydrogen can be used to
store large quantities of energy and to enhance grid
reliability as a non-emitting transportation fuel. This is
similar to the DOE demonstration projects that Dr. Bragg-Sitton
talked about at the Palo Verde and Nine Mile power plants.
Desalination plants will need SMRs as the world continues to
stretch the supply of fresh water. Advanced nuclear plants that
operate at high temperatures can also help decarbonize the
industrial sector by providing electricity and hydrogen and
process heat. SMRs offer resilient, reliable, and long-term
power to facilities important to national security, like
military bases. I would also add that in my personal experience
at Los Alamos National Lab, I saw firsthand the importance of
the U.S. actively developing and deploying civilian nuclear
technology, if it is to remain influential in the development
of international nuclear policy.
The first SMRs are expected to be commercially viable in
the 2027 to 2029 timeframe. Continued engagement between the
private sector and the Federal Government is needed to advance
the technology and offset the financial risk of early adoption
of this technology. SMRs are very large investments that are
likely to have 40-year life cycles. Consequently, they require
significant regulatory and legislative support. We believe SMRs
can provide an essential complement to renewable sources and
can be a valuable tool to address carbon reductions and meet
the growing energy needs of the U.S. economy.
Finally, AEP is very focused on the development and support
of the communities we serve. The highly skilled energy
workforce in our Appalachian service territory has powered
America's economy for decades. Through no fault of their own,
these communities are now being negatively impacted by the
country's need to move toward a low-carbon economy. Nuclear
generation sources bring with them large numbers of good-paying
jobs. Through the co-generation of power and hydrogen, these
communities can continue to meet the energy demand of our
economy while making possible our nation's transition to net
zero. Given the tremendous challenges ahead, we can ill-afford
to forgo this great resource.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Chodak follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
Next, we have Mr. Michael Guastella, Executive Director of
the Council on Radionuclides and Radiopharmaceuticals.
Mr. Guastella.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL J. GUASTELLA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL
ON RADIONUCLIDES AND RADIOPHARMACEUTICALS, INC.
Mr. Guastella. Good morning Chairman Manchin, Ranking
Member Barrasso, and members of the Committee. I am Michael
Guastella, the Executive Director of the Council on
Radionuclides and Radiopharmaceuticals (CORAR). CORAR is an
association of companies that manufacture and distribute
radioactive sources and medical isotopes in the United States.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Committee with our
concerns with the current supply of isotopes.
Medical isotopes are used by nuclear medicine doctors to
diagnose or treat disease. Nuclear medicine has the distinct
advantage of being non-invasive with few side effects. We
estimate that there are 20 million nuclear medicine procedures
performed annually for diseases such as cancer, heart disease,
Parkinson's disease, and Alzheimer's disease. In the mid-
1990's, the last U.S. commercially operated reactor that
produced fission-based medical isotopes was closed and
decommissioned. In addition, in the late 90's, the U.S.
Government closed the Stable Isotope Production Facility at the
Oak Ridge National Laboratory. These two actions left the
medical and industrial communities more reliant on foreign
sources. Few in the government focused on the loss of domestic
medical isotope production until 9/11, when many of the
isotopes coming from abroad were temporarily cut off due to the
cessation of flights into the U.S.
In the years following 9/11, your Committee took up the
concern over the lack of a domestic supply of medical isotopes
and to remove the use of highly enriched uranium (HEU) in the
production of medical isotopes, and led the effort to enact the
American Medical Isotope Production Act of 2012 (AMIPA). AMIPA
focused on the Department of Energy on assisting in the
development of domestic medical isotope production from non-HEU
sources. I am proud to be here today to say ``thank you'' for
this Committee's acknowledgement of the isotope supply issues
and your support in addressing our concerns. Also, I want to
recognize past Chairman Bingaman and Ranking Member Murkowski
for their leadership and efforts that resulted in the enactment
of AMIPA.
Now, let me update the Committee on U.S. isotope supply,
opportunities, and challenges. Of the 20 million nuclear
medicine procedures performed annually in the U.S., an
estimated 15 million of these procedures utilize a medical
isotope that is used for diagnostic imaging procedures and is
predominantly and approximately 90 percent sourced from
overseas. We note that U.S. patients rely on other medical
isotopes that are either sole-sourced or predominantly sourced
from overseas. For example, palladium-103 is used to
manufacture brachytherapy seeds, and the primary source of
palladium-103 is Russia. These radioactive seeds are primarily
used in early-stage prostate cancer treatment.
The DOE has also been a supportive and constructive partner
through efforts of the Office of Science Isotope Program to
domestically produce both the isotopes that are needed because
commercial production has not yet been established or is not
sufficient to meet U.S. medical and industrial needs. The DOE
Isotope Program (DOE IP) accomplishes this through a network of
production sites that utilize national laboratory resources.
DOE especially plays a critical role in producing and
distributing isotopes needed in scientific research and for
initial medical clinical development, as there are not
sufficient commercial incentives for production of such
isotopes. CORAR and its member companies believe that where
commercially feasible, medical and industrial isotopes should
be produced by the private sector. Various companies are
currently developing reactor and non-reactor capabilities to
help scale-up domestic production of essential medical
isotopes. CORAR believes that when diverse commercial
production sources can meet U.S. demand, the DOE Isotope
Program should exit the market for such isotopes, consistent
with the mission of the DOE Isotope Program.
CORAR would recommend that the Committee continue to
support the DOE's research, development, and production
activities. Also, CORAR suggests that the Committee suggest an
increase in DOE's industry and government cooperation through a
stakeholder and an agency advisory committee to help to find
the nation's isotope need and help identify opportunities to
increase domestic isotope production.
I thank you for the opportunity to testify today and I
welcome any questions that you might have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Guastella follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank all of you for doing a great job and we
appreciate it. We will start our questioning now, and I am
going to start with Dr. Shannon Bragg-Sitton.
U.S.-based companies are working with the national labs to
bring advanced nuclear technology to market, technologies that
can generate high temperatures needed for manufacturing. We
know that the industrial sector is difficult to decarbonize
because of the technological challenges and the volume of
energy that must be replaced with non-emitting technologies.
The manufacturing industry in the U.S. uses about 25
exajoules--Did I say that correctly?--exajoules of energy.
About 20 percent of this is from electricity, 40 percent from
steam, and 40 percent from fossil-fired combustion, and over 90
percent of the primary energy required is currently derived
from the combustion of fossil fuels.
So can you explain the advantages of advanced nuclear
plants for process heat applications or hydrogen production?
What I am trying to look at is the price model too, there, to
make it more competitive price-wise. If we are going to be
replacing our fossils, I want to make sure that we have the
horsepower to do it.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you so much for that question,
Senator Manchin.
Absolutely. Advanced reactors can provide us with high-
temperature heat to produce hydrogen very efficiently. Using
that high-temperature heat and electricity, we can produce
hydrogen approximately 30 to 50 percent more efficiently than
by just using electricity alone. And we can provide that heat
directly via steam or via stored energy in energy storage
systems to support that industrial application and bring those
costs down such that we can bring back domestic manufacturing--
and steel manufacturing--all without the carbon emissions
associated with it. And these industrial applications can be
very efficient, can be produced just as efficiently as with
fossil resources, but doing so without emissions provides a
significant advantage over these competing technologies.
The Chairman. Do you see--it looks like nuclear is the--if
we are going to decarbonize the industrial sector, I do not
believe, personally, that we can do it with renewables. So we
need to do it with something that has the horsepower and
basically is dispatchable 24/7. Is nuclear the way to go?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Yes, I believe it is.
The Chairman. Dr. Chodak.
Dr. Chodak. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. Mr. Guastella.
Mr. Guastella. Yes.
The Chairman. Okay, it is good to get that understanding.
In light--and this is to Dr. Chodak. This will be yours. In
light of recent legislation that developed an emergence of U.S.
companies building advanced reactors in the next decade, my
legislature is working in West Virginia to reverse the civil
nuclear that restricts the construction of nuclear plants in
the state. I think we are going to get that done. They
understand. Several potential sites in West Virginia and across
the country have preexisting infrastructure. We have coal-fired
plants that are going down. I think my friend in Wyoming has a
coal-fired plant. Everything is there. The base is there to
work off of.
So would that be the way for us to go as we are taking
fossil coal off of the grid, but having all the
interchangeable--the switch stations right there on that site.
Would that be our best way to get up and running quicker?
Dr. Chodak. Yes, Senator. If you can hit the targets that
they are talking about for us--if they can build them for, you
know, $2,000 to $3,000 per KW, and if they can get a levelized
cost that's competitive at around $50 per megawatt-hour, then
nuclear technology makes a tremendous amount of sense.
The Chairman. Doctor, let me see, you are saying that is
five cents, five cents a kilowatt-hour is what you are talking?
Dr. Chodak. Right.
The Chairman. Okay. At five cents, I do not see that in my
energy reports every day. I see it being up there high in the
9, 10, 11, 12--even higher.
Dr. Chodak. So the five cents is just the generation cost
and then on top of that you have the cost to actually transmit
it. So the generation cost is probably around five cents.
The Chairman. And how does that compare with natural gas,
combined cycle, and coal?
Dr. Chodak. Three-dollar natural gas would be closer to
three cents per kilowatt-hour.
The Chairman. Three cents, okay, and coal?
Dr. Chodak. And coal is right around in there too. Natural
gas and coal are probably around $20 to $30 a megawatt-hour.
The Chairman. So nuclear is higher.
Dr. Chodak. Nuclear is----
The Chairman. Is there any way that you can see--through
advanced technology and how we basically are using this money
that we are talking about, a good bit of money for research and
development--can we get that cost down or does the new
generation of nuclear--will that bring it down?
Dr. Chodak. Senator, I believe it will. Those are the
targets they are talking about and we are talking about 10
years from now. So the cost of power 10 years from now is
likely going to be above that three cents per kilowatt-hour. It
is going to be closer to four or five cents. I think at those
prices then nuclear can be competitive. The key is to get
through the first-of-a-kind costs and that is where we need a
lot of collaboration at the state and federal levels because
there are additional costs associated with that. And so the
programs that the DOE is engaging in to do the R&D are very,
very helpful in that regard, but also remember that these are
40-year cycles.
As a utility, my job is to be cost-effective for my
customers. That's the number one thing after----
The Chairman. I want to take the liberty of asking one more
question, if you don't mind.
Dr. Chodak. No.
The Chairman. The liberty of asking one more question is
this: We had a program that was presented to us called CEPP
(Clean Energy Performance Program), which we were going to pay
utilities to--and the carbon, the fossil cycle, if you will--
and it was basically geared toward coal. And I understand, coal
has gone from 52 percent of basically producing the power for
our country, down to 19 percent. People do not realize, we are
going in the right direction, if that's what they want. But the
bottom line is we had gas fill the back--come back and fill the
baseload. So we had baseload power. Going down that cycle, do
we have anything that will replace the dispatchable baseload
power by 2030 if we took all of our fossil off? Can any of you
answer? Do you think we would be in jeopardy of not having
dispatchable power? Baseload?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Absolutely. We need to have that
dispatch-
ability, that nuclear energy.
The Chairman. But the way this program was going, your
thought? Did you know a little bit about the CEPP?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Okay. Well, you ought to read up on it.
Dr. Chodak. Senator, I am familiar with the CEPP and you're
absolutely right. If you were to remove baseload generation
dispatchable power from the grid by 2030 then you couldn't
guarantee the reliability and stability of the grid.
The Chairman. So reliability, first of all, and the cost
would have been outrageous too, I am understanding.
Dr. Chodak. Exactly.
The Chairman. Okay.
Mr. Guastella.
Mr. Guastella. Senator Manchin, I am not an expert in
power, so----
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Okay. Well then, I am going to let you pass
on that one.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Let me testify that Senator Manchin is an
expert in power and how to use it.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Guastella. He certainly sounds like he is.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Oh, boy.
Senator Barrasso. Dr. Chodak, TerraPower has announced
plans to build its Natrium advanced nuclear reactor in my home
State of Wyoming. This reactor will be the first of its kind
built anywhere in the world. It will also be the first time a
nuclear reactor uses the infrastructure and workforce from a
retired coal plant. Why are utilities interested in advanced
nuclear technologies like TerraPower's Natrium reactor?
Dr. Chodak. Senator, they're interested because it
complements renewables very well and supplies the dispatchable
resources. You know, when we talk about 24/365 regardless of
the weather, we saw what happened in Texas with Uri. We saw all
the devastation that that caused. We saw the challenges that
you see in California today where they are--the California
Public Utility Commission just went out and said, ``Hey, we
need gas resources. We need dispatchable power to make sure the
lights don't go out.''
There are still days in a row where you don't have the wind
blowing and it's very cloudy, and so you have to have that
dispatchable resource. And small modular reactors are flexible.
They can load-ramp. They are small in size so they take a much
smaller footprint. I believe the Natrium reactor takes about a
44-acre footprint, very small footprint. And because it has the
molten salt energy storage device in it, it can ramp up from
345 to 500 megawatts. That's considerable ramp-up during a time
when solar energy is dropping off at the end of the day--
everybody is coming home, turning on their computers, turning
on their lights, turning on their stoves--and that's exactly
when solar power is going away. That's when that Natrium
reactor can respond. And small modular reactors are flexible in
design to be able to do that.
Senator Barrasso. Mr. Guastella, particle accelerators and
nuclear reactors are used to produce medical isotopes--elements
which doctors use to diagnose and treat cancers, a number of
diseases. Research reactors and particle accelerators provide
the bulk of these isotopes. What kind of opportunities do
existing commercial reactors present for medical isotope
production and then also, what kind of opportunities do
advanced reactors like TerraPower present for medical isotope
production? So both the advanced and the traditional?
Mr. Guastella. Well, Senator, thank you. Thank you for that
question. I am not a nuclear engineer so what I would like to
do is submit that question for the record so that we can
respond with more detail.
To your point, research reactors and particle accelerators
are currently being used in the U.S. There is a lot of research
and development being done right now, particularly with
particle accelerators in the U.S. commercially, and I think it
would be a good thing to actually take that question offline
and then provide some additional information to the Committee.
Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. So could you explain why it is important
for the United States to maintain and enhance our ability to
produce medical and industrial isotopes?
Mr. Guastella. Well, we are dependent--like I mentioned in
my opening comments--we are significantly dependent on foreign-
sourced materials. That includes molybdenum. The daughter
isotope of molybdenum is technetium, and about 75 percent of
all nuclear medicine procedures require technetium, and what we
have seen in the past is when we have issues like the start of
the pandemic when commercial flights were canceled from Europe,
we had a significant issue with access here in the U.S. and
accessing those products.
So increasing domestic production is incredibly important
to ensure accessibility to needed isotopes and there are many
others, not only radioactive, but stable isotopes also.
Senator Barrasso. Dr. Chodak, one more for you. The world
is looking to expand the use of nuclear energy to meet its
environmental and energy goals. U.S. leadership in the nuclear
energy sector, I believe, is critically important. To what
extent can utilization of nuclear reactors for non-electric
applications like hydrogen production further enhance our
leadership in terms of energy and around the world?
Dr. Chodak. Well, Senator, as I alluded to in my testimony,
I have firsthand experience with being at the negotiating table
with international nuclear authorities and the question that
was leveled at us, no matter what we said, was ``Well, you guys
aren't deploying anything. You haven't built anything in 30
years. Why should we listen to you?'' In essence, that was
their argument, which is very difficult to argue against. Very
difficult to argue with that.
If we are out there deploying, leading the way in
technology, and defining systems and out there showing how it
can be done, how nuclear technology can be used for all these
non-electric uses, then we are able to have a seat at the table
and have a conversation and credibly argue for international
policy that we believe to be correct.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Now we are going to go to Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
This is an incredibly important panel. So I appreciate you all
being here.
Let me follow up on Senator Barrasso's question, Mr.
Guastella, to you. With respect to the production of medical
isotopes, I am interested in how we can utilize the current
nuclear reactors for the production of it versus the advanced
technology that we are looking at. Which one is better? So
whatever research you put together and you submit, would you
please submit it to my office as well?
Mr. Guastella. Absolutely.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Because I think this is an
important issue. Are you familiar with the GE-180 Tracer?
Mr. Guastella. I am not, no.
Senator Cortez Masto. Okay. So the GE-180 Tracer was
approved by the FDA to help really understand the underlying
causes of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and it happened in Las
Vegas at the Lou Ruvo Clinic--Cleveland Clinic, by one of our
doctors. And this is a perfect example of supporting what you
are saying----
Mr. Guastella. Right.
Senator Cortez Masto [continuing]. Why this production--
medical isotopes are so important. But in layman's terms, can
you explain? When people hear medical isotopes, that is very
confusing, I think, and it doesn't explain how this is utilized
to help uncover the causes and determine, really, what we are
trying to understand with Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's
disease, and so many others. Can you explain it in layman's
terms how it is utilized?
Mr. Guastella. Sure. Let's take a simple example using PET
imaging. So the GE machine that you mentioned, I'm sure, is a
machine that is used to produce PET isotopes. So we will take
PET imaging, and a fairly generic use of that technology in the
diagnosis of cancer. So a fluorine-18 radioisotope is attached
to a sugar molecule--glucose--and that is injected into a
patient and glucose is used by every cell in the body, but
cells that are particularly active, that have a much higher
level of metabolism, absorb more of that. And so, with PET
imaging using fluorinated glucose (FDG), physicians can
actually diagnose where cancer has metastasized. That same
technology can be used with a patient that has been diagnosed
with cancer, and then used after treatment to determine if some
of those tumors have actually decreased in size or actually
gone away.
So it is a nice example of how nuclear medicine and PET
imaging can be used, not only in diagnosis, but in forming
treatment.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you so much.
And then, you ended your testimony talking about the need
for a stakeholder agency advisory committee. Can you talk a
little bit about your vision for that? What do you anticipate?
If we were to put something together like that what would be
its duties and functions? What are you thinking?
Mr. Guastella. The Isotope Program, basically, through the
NSAC (Nuclear Science Advisory Committee), underwent a review
of isotope needs. It was the NSACI--isotope subcommittee--that
has done that twice. The last report was in 2015. We think, as
an industry association, it would be helpful to actually
provide another report working with stakeholders, industry,
researchers, clinicians, the Isotope Program (DOE), to evaluate
current needs, potential opportunities moving forward, and the
resources needed to accomplish the goals of the action items
that come out of that committee.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Dr. Chodak, let me ask you this. When it comes to all
things nuclear, can you expand on the need for state and local
input? Do you think it is important to have state and local
input as we look and move forward on all of these areas?
Dr. Chodak. Yes, as a utility it is absolutely essential
that we not only serve customers with safe, reliable power, but
we serve them in the way that they want to be served. And we
need to work very collaboratively with state and local
governments to ensure that everybody is on board with the way
that we serve. There are multiple options to serve customers,
and generally speaking, we try to remain technologically
agnostic. Now, we are looking for the solution that provides
that reliable, low-cost power, but also one that communities
are willing and interested in having as part of their mix.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Cassidy.
Senator Cassidy. Dr. Bragg-Sitton, hello.
One of the things we hear and read about for smaller, micro
nuclear reactors is to help isolated communities after natural
disaster. Louisiana was hit recently by hurricane Ida. There
were a lot of transmission lines that were down, but one of the
ways that they brought electricity back more quickly was by
firing back up a mothballed natural gas plant in New Orleans to
allow at least a local distribution. Similarly, after
hurricanes Delta and Laura in Jeff Davis Parish, the local
generating capacity was destroyed. So to what degree could a
small or micro nuclear reactor help this? Obviously, I am
begging the answer--it could help a lot. So what I am really
asking is, what is the likelihood of this happening safely, and
on what timeframe?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you for that question, Senator
Cassidy.
We have a number of companies that are interested in the
development of microreactors for many applications, whether
those be for deployment for permanent installations, remote
communities, or for emergency deployment. Microreactors offer
us the opportunity to have high-density energy in a very small
package. Many of these microreactors are characterized by
factory manufacturing, factory assembly, and rapid shipment to
site for operation within just a few days. And there are a
number of companies working on these to ensure that they will
be available this decade as well as programs under the
Department of Energy and the Department of Defense that are
enabling rapid development.
Senator Cassidy. What would be the cost of such a reactor?
How long could it be used for? And what would be the cost per
megawatt-hour and how does that relate to conventional or
traditional forms of energy?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. With regard to operational time, many of
these reactor technologies are designed to operate with
extremely long fuel cycles, where our traditional plants today
require refueling every 18 to 24 months. These microreactors
are designed to offer long life cycles of 5 years, 10 years, or
even 20 years of operation so that they could be set down
onsite and operated for those long periods of time.
With regard to cost, we believe that they will be quite
competitive with other energy sources that could be deployed in
those types of regions, but for the record, I would like to
provide a detailed answer after communicating with some of
those companies to understand their current cost numbers.
Senator Cassidy. So the way you answered that suggests to
me that it might be more expensive but if you are in a region
where electricity is already more expensive, it would be
competitive, but if you are in a place where electricity tends
to be less expensive, it might be a little bit more highly
priced.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Yes, that is correct, in that if we were
looking at a remote region that is currently dependent on
diesel generators, this would be much more cost effective than
those diesel generators. But if we are looking to deploy
something in a region that has large centralized power plants
today, it might be a bit more expensive. So they will not be
applicable to all applications, but in many applications, they
will be a ready source of reliable, dispatchable energy to meet
those needs in emergency situations or to provide that long-
duration, sustainable power to remote communities or remote
industrial facilities.
Senator Cassidy. And what is the capacity? How much energy
could they produce for this long life cycle?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. These microreactors that could be
packaged in the small transportable units are on the order of
megawatts. So a few megawatts of electricity up to 10 or maybe
20 megawatts of electricity, really bound by the requirements
of that factory manufacturing and easy shipment to site via
truck, rail, barge, types of technologies.
Senator Cassidy. I have a lot of petrochemical industry,
and obviously there has also been interest among the steel and
cement and other energy-intensive industries to lower their
carbon intensity. Now, this sounds like a way that they could
have an onsite means by which they could, for that portion of
their consumption that is related to firing a boiler, they
could help decarbonize, correct?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Yes, these types of technologies are
something that could provide both the electricity to drive
those processes, but also the heat that is necessary to drive
the processes, and they can be sited very close to those
applications and be dispatchable when that energy is needed for
a very long duration of time, as I mentioned.
Senator Cassidy. Now, in the life cycle--you talked about
expense--if you are speaking about that long of a life cycle,
you would be avoiding all the input costs for whatever your
traditional form of energy would be as well as theoretically
your repair costs for lines. If there is an Ida and it blows
down your transmission lines, there is a cost of repair. Under
this circumstance, co-located, you would be potentially more
secure, but also avoid that kind of life-cycle expense of
maintaining a grid. Am I begging an answer again or do you
think that is reasonable?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. I think that is reasonable--that these
types of systems can support regional microgrids for both heat
and electricity and therefore be much more secure under a
variety of events, whether those be weather related or
otherwise, and provide that reliable energy for those long
durations. And those long life cycles, those refueling cycles
that are much longer, mean that we have much fewer operations
required onsite. And in fact, after that 10 or 20 year life
cycle for that plant, we would then simply replace the core and
refurbish that back at a factory.
Senator Cassidy. Got it. Thank you very much. I yield.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. I am going to go just a
quick second round. If anybody else wants to, I only have one
question to any of you or all of you or whoever wants to
answer.
My state energy production is about 96 percent coal for my
electricity needs in my state. And we export quite a bit of
power from our state. Do you believe, for the State of West
Virginia, the best direction for it to go would be--as we
transition--to nuclear? Does it make sense because of the
footprint that we already have, the substations we already
have, everything--connection, doesn't need any new
transmission, doesn't need anything except a new plug-in model?
You can start right here. We will go down.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Great. Thank you so much for that
question. As Dr. Chodak mentioned, those coal sites offer us
with significant infrastructure that these nuclear plants can
come in and thereby reduce the cost of installing these plants,
so those low numbers to make those very competitive. We can
take advantage of the grid interconnection and many studies are
being conducted to better understand how much of the other
assets in that region can be leveraged.
Now, another opportunity that those sites offer us is that
we now have a carbon-based feedstock that isn't going to
production of electricity, but we could instead use that high-
quality heat and electricity from a nuclear plant that goes
into that site to process that carbon-based feedstock into
higher-value consumer products, thereby enhancing the economic
development of those communities that are being impacted by
this energy transition. So I think there is a really tremendous
opportunity here.
The Chairman. We are going to have to bring you to West
Virginia, do a little confab there and get everybody on the
right track.
Dr. Chodak.
Dr. Chodak. Senator Manchin, I will just add, first off, I
agree with everything that was just said and I would just add
that if you look at it today, CCS, you know, fossil generation
with carbon capture and storage and nuclear are the only two
emission-free dispatchable sources that we really have that can
go multi-days or even seasonal. And when you look at West
Virginia, West Virginia's geology is wonderful to look at, but
in terms of storing CO2, not so good.
The Chairman. Right.
Dr. Chodak. And so, it's an outstanding opportunity for a
small modular reactor to come in there. The key is, we need to
be able to get the cost down and be able to take down the risk
of that first-of-a-kind through energy policy. When you layer
in the secondary sources, you know, we have a chemical industry
there in West Virginia, along the river, where the process
heat, the hydrogen production and hydrogen production potential
for export to the rest of the country----
The Chairman. Yes.
Dr. Chodak [continuing]. You're now looking at West
Virginia doing what it used to do with coal only now it's doing
it with nuclear.
The Chairman. Good.
I know you are not an energy person.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Guastella. I would defer to the experts here on the
panel, and if it actually increased medical isotope production
domestically, it would be a win across the board here.
The Chairman. Thank you all. I am going to have to run, but
Senator Barrasso is going to take over.
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thank you. Thank you so much.
I will do that.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton, what more can be done to support private-
sector efforts to use nuclear energy for non-electric
application?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. There are a number of efforts that are
underway that are helping significantly to demonstrate these
advanced reactor technologies. For example, the Advanced
Reactor Demonstration Program is supporting those first
demonstrations of private-sector concepts, the Natrium reactor
by TerraPower has been mentioned and is planned for
demonstration in Wyoming and the
X-energy Xe-100 reactor will be initially demonstrated in the
State of Washington. These demonstration projects get us
considerably down the path toward commercial deployment, but we
do need those commitments to be sustained--not just
demonstration, but deployment. Commercial-scale deployment of
these technologies needs continuing support. We need to look at
policies that help to promote that. We need to understand how
these technologies not only provide us with reliable heat and
electricity, but also that reduced carbon emission that is so
important to achieving that net-zero economy.
And the pathway to decarbonizing industry is very
challenging. There are not very many technologies that can do
this. So I would say continued support to ensure that we get to
large-scale commercial deployment of these technologies that
will help us toward that net-zero future is essential.
Senator Barrasso. When we get to this point of future
deployments and the scope that you are talking about in the
long-term future, I understand these reactors will be smaller,
safer, and more efficient. What kinds of opportunities do these
specific characteristics--something that is smaller, safer, and
more efficient--present for the siting and for the economic
viability of nuclear energy?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. The smaller packages offer us the
opportunity to locate these plants, these reactors, much closer
to their end-use so that transport of heat is much shorter,
much reduced heat loss. The smaller packaging also opens that
opportunity for factory manufacturing that I mentioned with
microreactors. The same thing applies to small modular reactors
where we can begin to produce these in large numbers in a
factory assembly line type of process such that they no longer
become an onsite, one-of-a-kind application. We can reduce cost
dramatically through that type of manufacturing approach which
then, when we get to those ``nth-of-a-kind'' systems, then our
costs come down significantly overall.
Senator Barrasso. Mr. Guastella, can you talk a little bit
about targeted alpha therapy? That seems to be a promising
option for cancers that are no longer responsive to some
conventional treatments. Could you describe this treatment and
how nuclear energy can enable the production of a new class of
isotopes to help in our fight against cancer?
Mr. Guastella. Sure. Actinium-225 is an alpha emitter. It
is unfortunately in short supply right now and anything that we
can do to increase the production of actinium-225 would be
helpful. There is a lot of work being done right now in using
alpha emitters like actinium-225 in the treatment of cancer.
So, for example, a high percentage of prostate patients express
a protein--a prostate-specific membrane antigen, and the use of
an alpha emitter like actinium-225 to a carrier--a protein or a
monoclonal antibody that would be specific to that antigen--
would now provide a very targeted therapeutic for patients that
express that particular antigen. And that really is kind of the
definition of precision medicine.
And what is also helpful is that the carrier protein--
monoclonal antibody, or whatever--can also be used with a
diagnostic isotope. So you can identify the appropriate
patients and then use a radiotherapy, like actinium, to treat
the patient.
Senator Barrasso. Great.
Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Let me talk a little bit about
another opportunity here and I am curious if it does exist--
around water purification. Obviously, western states--I am one
of them, also Senator Barrasso--we all have concerns about a
drought happening right now in the West and how we augment some
of our water, particularly along the Colorado River. I know
that in the past there have been projects trying to couple the
desalination with existing nuclear power plants, and
unfortunately, the cost is very high. So I am curious, both Dr.
Bragg-Sitton and Dr. Chodak, if the advanced nuclear technology
is going to be able to couple with this type of water
purification and bring those costs down, or just your thoughts,
in general, about the state of desalination and is it in our
purview? Is it in 10, 20 years? Is it something that is viable
but also economically viable as well?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you so much for that question.
Idaho National Laboratory partnered with Arizona Public Service
a few years ago to look at that exact question. How can we
utilize excess energy from the Palo Verde Generating Station to
desalinate water? It is a very interesting scenario there in
that they have an ample amount of brackish groundwater rather
than sea water. And so, looking at that resource and looking at
reverse osmosis technology, which is commercially available at
large scale, we actually found that there were reasonable
opportunities to bring those costs down, to make that
affordable, to provide cooling water for that plant, which
currently uses municipal wastewater for cooling, or to provide
that to the agricultural regions or potable water for those
growing communities west of Phoenix.
So there are some opportunities available and it does
depend on the water source. It depends on the economic
competitiveness of how else that electricity would be used and,
in that case, it was curtail electricity due to rising solar
penetration in that region, or use it to produce this clean
water. So there may be some viable options with technology we
have today and we see many countries, in the Middle East, for
example, that are looking to enhanced water processing
desalination to support their communities as well. Reverse
osmosis is driven purely by electricity to drive that process.
There are also thermally driven desalination processes that may
become more affordable as we begin looking to the higher
temperature applications that are available with advanced
reactors. So I do think there is a considerable pathway toward
that.
And another item to consider is that these advanced
reactors, in many cases, don't use water themselves for
cooling. They use advanced cycle. So they can provide a
positive output of water without using cooling water to
operate.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Dr. Chodak, anything to add to that?
Dr. Chodak. I would just add a little bit to that. That was
a great answer. Just a little bit to add to that would be--
small modular--because it is modular, it can be built in the
factory, so it is a lower cost. So when you think about a small
modular reactor, the targets they are talking about, the
numbers they are talking about, about $2,000 to $3,000 a KW,
compare that to existing, you know, AP1000 designs, which are,
you know, $6,000 to $12,000 per KW. So there is significantly
less capital cost and then the ``smaller'' means they can be
sited closer to where that water is going to be used because
they have a much smaller footprint, and because you are
designing it upfront, you can design that cycle and optimize it
for that specific use. So there are multiple layers of
potential cost savings and additional utility that you can get
out of these designs.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thanks for
the hearing today. One of the things that I miss about not
being Chairman of the Committee is, you know, before you would
get to sit and listen to all this great stuff. Now I am like
everybody else, I come air-dropping in right at the end when
everyone is trying to wrap up. I get the gavel again. So thank
you for that, Mr. Chairman.
[Laughter.]
Senator Murkowski. But these are important issues, when it
comes to nuclear, particularly the advances that we are seeing
with advanced nuclear reactors and small modular reactors. We
just got an announcement a couple of weeks ago now that Eielson
Air Force Base--the Department of Defense--will be hosting the
first pilot of a microreactor there. I am really excited to see
the application there and what it can mean for us in remote
areas, not only on military installations, but greater
application elsewhere. So I love the topic.
I mention my excitement but one of the things that I had
been focused on, certainly in years previous to this is, as we
think about these advanced reactors, we need advanced fuel. And
so, we talk about HALEU (High-Assay Low-Enriched Uranium). Of
the ten reactor designs selected for the advanced reactor
demonstration program, nine use HALEU. So I have tried to focus
on this as a supply chain issue and raising the concern. My
understanding is that today, HALEU is only commercially
available from Russia. So I would like to have a little bit of
a discussion here this morning since everybody else is gone and
I have the gavel here.
What do we do? Do you all agree that we need to develop
domestic supply here to produce HALEU. I would hope that we
think that that is preferable to reliance on foreign sources.
And if so, really, what is our biggest obstacle here? Is this
primarily an economic and market issue? Is it a public policy
problem? What do you think we can do to build up this fuel
source? What more can we do on the infrastructure side?
So let's start with you, Dr. Bragg-Sitton.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you, Senator Murkowski.
You've kind of hit the nail on the head on one of our
challenges to these advanced reactors. With regard to High-
Assay Low-
Enriched Uranium, we have different pathways to get there. We
know how to do it. This is something that we can do at our
national laboratories and working with our fuel fabricators
here in the United States. And it is essential that we have a
domestic supply of this resource. It provides us the
opportunity to build these advanced reactors that can be put in
smaller packages and operate more efficiently.
So what do we need to do to make sure that we have that
resource available?
We need to make sure we put the investment in to establish
that supply chain. Why haven't we done that before? Well, the
demand wasn't necessarily there from the commercial sector
previously. And now that we see this very large interest
growing in the private sector to develop and deploy these
technologies, now we're beginning to have that demand for this
resource, for HALEU, and we need to put the investment in to
develop the capability to fabricate those fuels.
Senator Murkowski. So it has really just been a chicken and
an egg type of a thing?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. In my opinion, yes, frankly, that is a
part of it. Until the demand is there, the supply chain won't
be there. We know how to do it. We know how to get there, but
we need to invest in it to make sure that we can have that
resource available.
Senator Murkowski. Okay. Others on this point?
Dr. Chodak. I would just add, just to concur that this is
not amazing new technology. We absolutely know how to do this.
It's just that the market isn't there and so the supply isn't
there.
Senator Murkowski. So you know, last year, we established a
program within DOE to support the domestic availability of
HALEU. Can anyone give me an update on the current status of
that program? Has the Department been active in standing it up
and getting it going?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Yes, the program has stood up. That's
actually led out of my laboratory by a colleague of mine and
that has been moving forward, but again, we need to have that
continued investment to move those processes forward, whether
that is producing HALEU from existing materials or enriching
materials down the line. But yes, things are moving forward,
but we need more investment.
Senator Murkowski. Okay.
One last question, and we are certainly hearing this in
Alaska. I mentioned the microreactor that will be deployed up
in the interior part of the state, but I think educating and
informing the public about the reality of modern advanced
nuclear systems still remains a challenge. I think for so many,
particularly in a state like Alaska, where we just do not have
any nuclear power to speak of, so many still envision Three-
Mile Island. They think of Chernobyl when they think of nuclear
even though the small modular reactors and the microreactors
are really a world apart in terms of safe operations.
So I know that you all are focused on the technology, the
research, the deployment, but I think we also recognize that we
have to do more when it comes to educating people that this
nuclear is not just about clean energy, but it is also safe
technology. How do we make this transition? We are doing it on
the technology side. We are transitioning. But are we doing it
in the public mindset? What more can we be doing there? I throw
that out to any of you.
Dr. Chodak. If I could just chime in, I can give you a good
example. At our Cook Nuclear Plant on Lake Michigan, the
community there are the strongest supporters of the Cook plant
possible. And that occurs because the management of that plant
invites people to come into the plant, to tour the plant, to
see what's there and explain the technology. We have a visitor
center that has models where we go in and we bring in school
kids and we explain to them, ``Here's how the plant works.''
And when people understand what something is, then they're no
longer afraid of it. And when we start talking about these
advanced designs that--particularly the inherently safe
designs, where you can walk away from the facility at 100
percent power, and physics and the nature of it, because it's a
smaller size and a higher power-to-surface-area ratio, the
thing just naturally cools down and shuts itself down. And when
you start explaining those things to people, and they get that
understanding, then I think the fear level drops.
Now, that's no small feat to help them understand it and
you do it almost one community at a time, but I think
certainly, the story is an excellent one. And it's just a
matter of education.
Senator Murkowski. We do have to get the word out.
Mr. Guastella. And Senator Murkowski, I would say from a
medical isotope perspective, it is very similar. It's not
community, it's patient by patient. So there is trepidation by
patients when they walk into a nuclear medicine department and
you know, they see a radiation sign, and some will freak out--
but educating patients that we're talking about a very low
level of activity, they are very short-lived. The half-lives of
the isotopes that we use in healthcare are very short. They are
excreted from the body efficiently. And again, patient by
patient and with some of the educational efforts that are being
done, not only by industry, but by the Society of Nuclear
Medicine and Molecular Imaging, I think we are making some
efforts. And with some of the new therapies, for example--
Senator Barrasso asked about these a little bit earlier--the
targeted alpha therapies that use isotopes like actinium. We
continue to make inroads, especially when they are so
efficacious and help patients.
Senator Murkowski. Good, well, thank you.
Well, and as I have indicated my interest, voila, everybody
else shows up. So I am going to turn the gavel back.
Senator Barrasso. Everybody wants to be where you are. Even
the Senior Senator from Idaho, Senator Risch. Four Republicans,
no Democrats.
Senator Risch. Well, it couldn't be a better day.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Well, and the----
Senator Risch. Go ahead.
Senator Barrasso [continuing]. And the first witness,
magnificent.
Senator Risch. Yes.
Senator Barrasso. From the Idaho National Lab.
Senator Risch. That is great. Thank you.
Senator Barrasso. That we toured together.
Senator Risch. Yes, thanks so much.
Senator Barrasso. As well as Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Yes, it is very true.
Senator Risch. That was not your first trip to the lab, was
it, Senator?
Senator Murkowski. No, and it is not going to be my last
either.
Senator Risch. That's good.
Well, thank you, and thank you, Senator Barrasso and to the
Chairman for holding this hearing. This is something, I think,
that most people aren't aware of. If they are aware of the
importance of nuclear energy, most people do not drill down
this far. So it is important that we do explore these kinds of
things.
I am proud to represent the nation's flagship nuclear
energy laboratory at the Idaho National Lab, which we still
have the first three light bulbs there that were lit by nuclear
energy. So we are very, very proud of that. We built 52
reactors over time at INL. Some demonstration, some actually
working, but Senator Murkowski, you were talking about Alaska
and not having access to nuclear power. At the lab right now
they are building the SMR, the small modular reactor, which
will serve a smaller community, but you will be interested to
hear that they are also on the drawing boards for the
microreactor that a lot of us have been pushing for a long
time. Look, if you can put it on a ship and drive a ship with
it, why can't you put it on a trailer and take it to deepest,
darkest places of the world, you know? So anyway, I think that
is certainly the future. Whether people want to or not,
obviously, we are going to run out of these fossil fuels and
probably stop using them even before we run out of them, but
this is the only way to deliver a load. The Idaho National
Laboratory is on the front edge of that. There is no question
about that.
From the safety standpoint that was just being discussed, I
think most people, again, when you talk about--if they throw
Three-Mile Island in your face or Chernobyl--you can always
come back with, ``Look, the entire navy is run on nuclear
reactors.'' They are all over the world now. We only have 93 in
the United States, but they are growing dramatically all over
the world. And it is the safest, one of the safest things to do
in the world. We just do not have those kind of things
[Chernobyl style reactors], you know, we have better
engineering and everything else. So it is important, I think,
that all of us be advocates for how safe, not only how clean
nuclear energy is, but how safe it is.
So the area that we are talking about today, I think, is
particularly important and I think that Shannon, it is good to
have you here. You are recognized worldwide as a pioneer in
this field of non-electric applications for nuclear energy. And
I think it is particularly important that we be focusing on
this now as our nuclear fleet continues to shrink. Originally,
it was just from wearing out or time. Now economics is playing
a lot more--a lot bigger role in that--particularly when you
have other forms of energy being used alternately to substitute
for the nuclear in the power that is generated.
So I would like each of you, if you would, for a minute, to
talk about the urgency of finding these additional economic
streams as to how that will help maintain the fleet that we
have.
Shannon, why don't you go first, since you are from Idaho.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you, Senator Risch.
It is essential that we act quickly. The existing fleet of
nuclear plants, as you mentioned, is experiencing financial
pressures as we see more and more variable renewable resources
coming online. That variability requires our baseload or
traditionally baseload generation to respond to that and to
dial back power. That's not necessarily the best economic
performance. These plants can do it. They can technically
provide that flexible response, but if we don't operate these
to the fullest extent possible, we're essentially throwing away
some of that resource and throwing away what we could be
utilizing. If we only look first at decarbonizing the electric
sector, I think we're going to miss a really elegant solution
to use these powerhouses of clean heat and electricity to
support broader decarbonization.
A nuclear plant is a producer of heat, which we then
convert to electricity. So using that heat directly to support
these areas that are very difficult to decarbonize and probably
shouldn't always be electrified or can't be electrified, we can
then come to a solution that still needs that reliable,
resilient grid and meets that demand at all times, working
right alongside other clean energy generators, like renewables,
like fossil with carbon capture, but then using the excess heat
and electricity to get to those hard-to-abate sectors and we
can get to those net-zero goals much more rapidly if we looked
at these holistic solution sets.
Senator Risch. I appreciate that.
Dr. Chodak. Senator, not only do we get to those goals much
more rapidly, but we get there much more cost effectively. If
you look at the existing fleet today, part of the reason they
are economically challenged is because the playing field is not
at all level. They are bringing value to the grid in terms of
dispatchable capacity that is available and there is no real
market mechanism that compensates them appropriately for that.
And then they are thrown into an energy market where they are
competing against renewable resources that have investment tax
credits and production tax credits, which can drive down the
price for power to actually negative numbers so that you have
to pay to keep your unit online to deliver power. That is an
unreasonable situation, particularly since these assets are so
incredibly valuable for us meeting our decarbonization goals.
So I think one of the things we can do for the existing
fleet is to put them on a level playing field and give them a
production tax credit and make those tax incentives such that
they can actually use them by using direct pay mechanisms to
provide that support and level the playing field so those units
can compete.
Senator Risch. Level playing field is incredibly important.
Mr. Guastella. Senator Risch, from a medical isotope
perspective, in the U.S., all the medical isotopes that are
produced domestically are done either through research reactors
like the University of Missouri Research Reactor, as an
example, or particle accelerators. Power reactors in Canada,
for example, are being used for a certain amount of isotope
production and I would defer to the experts whether the nuclear
power fleet here in the U.S. is actually capable of doing some
of the same things. Anything that we can do to increase
domestic supply would be important. So I certainly think that
folks would be open to looking at those opportunities.
Senator Risch. What is the situation? When I was Governor
in the mid-part of the first decade of this century, we had no
supply in the United States. We were totally reliant on Canada
or from Europe, as I recall. We did some work at INL to get up
and running in that regard and it was really critical,
particularly with the short half-lives of some of the isotopes.
What is the situation now?
Mr. Guastella. Well, you are probably referring mostly to
molybdenum. Ninety percent of the molybdenum sourced in the
U.S. is still foreign-sourced, either from Europe, South
Africa, or Australia. We do have one domestic supplier--
NorthStar in Wisconsin. There are others that are looking at
becoming domestic producers. SHINE in Wisconsin, also, is
another commercial organization that is getting close, but we
are still working on increasing domestic supply of molybdenum
and certainly many of the other isotopes that are needed by
healthcare professionals.
Senator Risch. I appreciate that. So important in the
medical field.
Well, with that, I will close. I just want to say that I
appreciate the Chairman and the Ranking Member doing this. I
think the economics of this is so important and the fact that
we do look at these alternative things.
The Chairman, Senator Manchin and I drew and got passed the
Integrated Energy Systems bill, which was signed into law last
year, which is accelerating this research at the DOE, which we
appreciate all your work on it and it is so important in
helping to keep online these 93 reactors that we have left. I
expect that that is going to turn around, but it is going to
take some time, there is no question about that. I yield back.
Thank you very much.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Bragg-Sitton, you know, I know we are talking about
nuclear here, but also, I want to ask you, in addition to
nuclear, do you agree that we need to accelerate the deployment
of carbon capture technologies allowing us to continue to
benefit from our abundant, low-cost, dependable fossil energy
resources? And that is something, obviously, that the Ranking
Member and I have a lot of in our states, is a lot of coal-
fired electricity, and do you think with carbon capture we can
and should make those investments to continue that baseload
generation?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. So carbon capture is a little outside of
my main technical area, but I will say that to get to these
ambitious goals we have to achieve that net-zero economy, it is
going to take everything we have in our toolbox. We will need
renewables. We will need nuclear. We will need fossil with
carbon capture. And how we accomplish that carbon capture does
require some additional research. We also are looking to direct
air capture to capture CO2 that is already emitted
in our environment. And I think those technologies will play a
significant role in the solution and those nuclear plants could
be sited right alongside those fossil plants and other plants
that emit CO2 to help drive that capture technology
to reduce costs.
Senator Hoeven. That is a very interesting idea.
What are some other ways to improve the commercial
viability for advanced reactors and bring technology to scale?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. I think we need to build it. I think that
bringing those technologies to the commercial sector requires
commitment. It requires us to develop and demonstrate those
technologies and get to the finish line by deploying those
technologies at scale, such that we can bring costs down, and
make them cost competitive. And producing these multiple
product streams will be a part of that cost competitiveness.
When we look to buildout of additional resources, we often look
to just the electric sector and we make decisions based on the
cost of that electricity, but bringing back that conversation
on leveling the playing field, part of that is looking at all
the assets these technologies bring to the forefront.
Renewables will play a role, but most of those renewables
provide only electricity and that is only part of our energy
use. These advanced reactors offer those additional
opportunities for heat and electricity that can support such a
wide array of industrial applications--chemical manufacturing,
bring back some of the domestic steel manufacturing. We need to
value those product streams and bring that into the decision
process when new plants are built.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
Dr. Chodak. And Senator Hoeven, specifically to your
question around what can we do to make these technologies more
cost-
effective and more competitive--so the challenge is that they
are first-of-a-kind technologies, and as a result they tend to
be more expensive, and that is my colleague's argument on why
we need to build them, right? Because if we build them, then
they are no longer first-of-a-kind because we get those lessons
learned and we get to save and learn on the ``nth'' cost
savings. But starting off as a utility, we try to be very much
technology agnostic--whatever is in the best interest of our
customers in terms of cost and reliability, that is what we are
going to go with.
And if you want to level the playing field with renewables,
then an investment tax credit, not unlike what renewables have,
particularly in the solar field and if you can get rid of the
requirement to normalize those costs, those are benefits that
pass directly to our customers. So if I can take that tax
credit and pass that benefit directly to my customer and it
reduces that cost to my customer, that greatly incentivizes
that technology and it enables me to bring that technology to
my customers.
Senator Hoeven. Very good. Thank you, Dr. Chodak.
And then, Mr. Guastella, given our reliance on foreign
sources for isotopes, particularly from Russia, what steps
should the U.S. take to increase our domestic production
capabilities?
Mr. Guastella. Well, we are taking steps currently to
increase domestic supply. There are several core member
companies, two of which I have already mentioned, that with
help from the Department of Energy and the grants of
cooperative agreements, are either currently producing or are
close to producing some of the primary radioisotopes that are
used in nuclear medicine--molybdenum, xenon, iodine-131 used
for thyroid disease. In addition, there are efforts right now
to install a fleet of particle accelerators to produce some of
the radiotherapies like actinium, for example, directly or by
using stable isotopes and irradiating those either in
cyclotrons or particle accelerators. And there are some core
member companies that are working toward that end also.
So efforts are being made. Also, as I had mentioned earlier
in my testimony, the efforts with the Department of Energy
Isotope Program have been extremely helpful and the
collaboration between industry and the DOE is necessary right
now to continue to provide much-needed isotopes that may not be
commercially viable at this point, but certainly needed by
researchers and physicians in looking at new treatments and new
diagnostics.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
Senator Barrasso. Senator Risch, any additional thoughts or
questions?
Senator Risch. Yes, you piqued my interest in a question.
You know, some time ago there was a lot of excitement about
hydrogen. That was going to be the new ``save the world'' kind
of idea, new shiny object. And that did not mature very much,
it does not seem like. Can you give us your thoughts on that?
Where that is? Where it is going? Whether it has the potential
everybody thought it had at the beginning?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Thank you very much. Hydrogen is a very
significant focus right now. And why is it such a focus? It is
because hydrogen is a highly versatile energy carrier and we
can produce it without emissions when we use non-emitting heat
and electricity from nuclear energy. And this hydrogen can be
stored so that it can be used now or it can be used later or
even transported to end users. So it is essentially a chemical
energy storage means and by producing that hydrogen, it gives
us these additional revenue streams for our operating plants.
Senator Risch. Is there an industry developing around that?
Dr. Bragg-Sitton. Yes. So hydrogen is an avenue to
decarbon-
ization of the electricity grid, transportation, and industry.
My colleagues at the Renewable Energy Laboratory and Argonne
National Laboratory have looked at market growth for that
hydrogen and those estimates range from growth on the order of
4 to 16 times depending on different assumptions being made.
That hydrogen can be used to produce electricity with
reversible fuel cells or via combustion in gas turbines.
Without emissions, we can use that in transportation for fuel
cell vehicles or through the production of synthetic liquid
fuels to begin meeting the needs for heavy duty transport or
maritime or aviation transport that won't be electrified or are
very difficult to electrify.
And in regard to industrial applications, there are
significant growth opportunities. Now, I mentioned in my early
remarks, hydrogen is available today and we see that mostly
through breaking down methane, which has those CO2
emissions associated, but if we use clean hydrogen, we can use
that in upgrading iron ore to create steel, so a domestic
manufacturing opportunity for steel without the associated
emissions that are traditionally a part of that process. We can
use it to upgrade coal and biomass to produce alternative fuels
and chemicals. And as we start valuing this clean energy
resource and these clean avenues to achieving these consumer
products, we do anticipate a significant growth in those
hydrogen markets and a significant opportunity for clean
hydrogen. We are already seeing that demand for clean hydrogen
from non-emitting sources is growing significantly in places
like Europe, where a premium is being paid for that.
And as we develop these technologies further, we will be
able to reduce those costs and achieve this Energy Earthshot
goal and the Hydrogen Earthshot goal of reducing the cost of
clean hydrogen dramatically over the next decade, which will,
again, grow that market considerably.
Senator Risch. Interesting.
Dr. Chodak. Senator, I was at a conference just yesterday,
the Association of Edison Illuminating Companies (AEIC), where
I listened to executives from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
(MHI), who have a project where they are working to develop
green hydrogen. And if you look at the major turbine
manufacturers, they are developing turbines to be able to run
on hydrogen. In the transportation industry, you also have oil
companies looking at potentially transitioning from using
hydrocarbons to generating hydrogen for the transportation
industry. So the answer is not if hydrogen is going to be part
of the future, it is just a matter of when and at what cost.
The real challenge is around--particularly for electricity use
and energy storage--you know, we make a product and the
electricity that is turning these lights on right now came off
a generator less than a second ago. And it is not easy to store
for more than four to six hours. That is the limit of existing
technology. Hydrogen is that technology that allows us to store
it so that, for example, in areas where you don't have the sun
shining all year long, which have a really strong summer, I can
take some of that solar energy, put it into hydrogen and then
take that hydrogen and use it later back during off-season
periods where I don't have as much solar power.
And there are all kinds of opportunities with small modular
reactors to create that hydrogen that gets used in that
infrastructure, both for transportation and also potentially
for electricity generation.
Senator Risch. Thank you.
Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much and I think, as Dr.
Bragg-Sitton just said, issues with what we are seeing in
Europe now with energy prices even more expensive than they are
here, more issues of energy poverty that are going on there,
that we need to continue to develop our opportunities here in
the United States. So thank you for that.
Thank you all for being here today. We are very grateful
for your testimony. I think it was a very important hearing.
Members are going to have until the close of business tomorrow
to submit additional questions for the record. We would ask you
to be thoughtful as well as expedient in replying to those.
With that, the Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:31 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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