[Senate Hearing 117-98]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 117-98

                 HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 14, 2021

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
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46-120 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman
Patty Murray, Washington             Jerry Moran,Kansas, Ranking Member
Bernard Sanders, Vermont             John Boozman, Arkansas
Sherrod Brown, Ohio                  Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Mike Rounds, South Dakota
Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Thom Tillis, North Carolina
Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Dan Sullivan, Alaska
Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona              Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
Margaret Wood Hassan New Hampshire   Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
                                     Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
                      Tony McClain, Staff Director
                 Jon Towers, Republican Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                       Wednesday, April 14, 2021

                                SENATORS

                                                                   Page
Tester, Hon. Jon, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana............     1
Moran, Hon. Jerry, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas......     2
Hassan, Hon. Margaret Wood, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire......     4
Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, U.S. Senator from Connecticut..........     7
Tuberville, Hon. Tommy., U.S. Senator from Alabama...............     9
Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas...................    10
Blackburn, Hon. Marsha, U.S. Senator from Tennessee..............    11
Sinema, Hon. Kyrsten, U.S. Senator from Arizona..................    12

                                WITNESS

Richard A. Sauber, Nominee to be General Counsel of the 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     3

                                APPENDIX
                           Prepared Statement

Richard A. Sauber, Nominee to be General Counsel of the 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................    16

                        Questions for the Record

Response to Pre-hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
  Hon. Tester....................................................    19
  Hon. Moran.....................................................    30

Response to Post-hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
  Hon. Moran.....................................................    39
  Hon. Murray....................................................    40
  Hon. Blackburn.................................................    43
  Hon. Brown.....................................................    44
Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees..........................    45

 
                 HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATION

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3 p.m., in Room 
106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, and via Webex, Hon. Jon 
Tester, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. Present: Tester, 
Brown, Blumenthal, Sinema, Hassan, Moran, Boozman, Cassidy, 
Tillis, Blackburn, and Tuberville.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN TESTER

    Chairman Tester. I want to call this hearing on the 
confirmation of Richard Stauber to serve as General Counsel for 
the Department of Veterans Affairs to order. I want to welcome 
Mr. Sauber. I hope I am not butchering your name. I never asked 
for a phonetic pronunciation.
    Mr. Sauber. That is correct.
    Chairman Tester. Good. But I want to welcome Mr. Sauber and 
his family here today, and thank him for the willingness to 
serve. I want to flag, for the members, that we have two votes 
beginning at 3:30, and I plan to wrap this hearing up in time 
for me to head over for the end of the first vote, which would 
mean you can go too.
    We will leave the record open to include Statements and 
post-hearing questions until 5 p.m. tomorrow. Senator Moran, 
how does that sound to you?
    Senator Moran. Mr. Chairman, as usual I have no objection 
to your thoughts. Well, I do not know about your thoughts. I 
have no objection to what you just said.
    Chairman Tester. That is good. You are a great human being. 
And I will put my full Statement into the record, but I want to 
say a few words about the nominee, and to the nominee. If 
confirmed, you will be looked upon to provide a comprehensive 
evaluation of legislation. This is no small task. In fact, in 
recent years, VA's interpretation of statute has not been in 
keeping with congressional intent. That is a problem and one I 
will look to you to solve.
    VA has also recently appealed several cases from the Court 
of Appeals of Veterans Claims to this court of appeals for the 
Federal circuit. These cases span a range of issues, including 
emergency care reimbursements. In Wolfe, the Department has 
failed to appropriately interpret the law.
    Now there are veterans who have been waiting for care, 
waiting for years to be reimbursed for emergency room care.
    One avoidable fact with this case is that appropriately 
applying the law will come at a cost. I want to say clearly to 
you that money should not matter when it comes to our nation's 
veterans. Fairness does.
    I look forward to our discussion today and thank you again 
for your willingness to serve on behalf of our nation's 
veterans and their families. Senator Moran.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORAN

    Senator Moran. Chairman Tester, thank you. I too will cut 
my opening remarks short but do want to say a few things 
because I want to make clear what I am looking for in the job--
for the individual we are about to confirm, and I would not 
want to discount the value of this hearing by shortening it, 
particularly for you but also for your wife and daughter.
    So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for your past public 
service and your interest in serving the Department of Veterans 
Affairs and the veterans that that department serves. I look 
forward to assisting you, being your ally, and seeing that good 
things happen at the Department.
    But I, too, would share the concern that was mentioned by 
the Chairman. In too many instances, we have had difficulty in 
getting the Department of Veterans Affairs to interpret the 
legislation as written. Too many times the law becomes 
something that is seemingly ignored at the Department, and they 
have their own thing and want to do it their own way. And I 
would insist that you, in your capacity, lead the effort to 
make certain that congressional acts of law, as written, as 
intended, are implemented at the Department of Veterans Affairs 
in compliance with those criteria.
    I also, as the Chairman said, look forward to your 
leadership in helping the Veterans Benefit Administration, the 
Board of Veterans Appeals, and the Court of Appeals of Veterans 
Claims to work through the backlog. And last, I would indicate 
you have significant responsibilities to promote official 
compliance with Federal ethics laws and ensure that the work 
force is free from bad actors that do not share the VA's 
mission for caring for our nation's veterans.
    While one part of this effort is cultural, making certain 
the VA's employees identify and report bad actors, VA 
leadership, along with the General Counsel, must make certain 
that those individuals are removed from employment within the 
Department of Veterans Affairs.
    I look forward to your testimony and appreciate your 
presence today and your willingness to serve.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Moran. Before we start 
with your testimony, Mr. Sauber, would you stand up please to 
take the oath. Please stand and raise your right hand, which 
you have done.
    Do you, Richard Sauber, solemnly swear or affirm that the 
testimony you are about to give before the United States Senate 
Committee on Veterans' Affairs will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. Sauber. I do.
    Chairman Tester. Let the record reflect that candidate 
responded in the affirmative.
    You have the floor, Mr. Sauber.

 STATEMENT OF RICHARD A. SAUBER, NOMINEE TO BE GENERAL COUNSEL 
             OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member. 
Let me just read my Statement and I will try to do it quickly, 
given the timeframe that we have.
    I am honored to be President Biden's nominee for the 
position of General Counsel at the Department of Veterans 
Affairs. If confirmed by the Senate, I pledge to you that I 
will join and support Secretary McDonough's unequivocal 
commitment made to this committee to fulfill our sacred 
obligation to care for veterans who gave their all to protect 
our Nation and to assist their caregivers, families, and 
survivors whose sacrifices have played a vital role in support 
of our veterans.
    It would also be my honor to serve in this position as my 
own contribution and expression of gratitude to the men and 
women who have served in our Armed Forces, and especially to 
honor the service of my father, who quit school to serve in the 
Army at the start of World War II, and my father-in-law, a 1955 
graduate of West Point who served in the Army for 20 years, 
including service in Vietnam. He and my mother-in-law are 
interred together in Arlington National Cemetery.
    You have already, Mr. Chairman, recognized my wife and 
daughter. I want to just introduce them again to the Committee. 
I would not be here without their support and love. We have one 
other daughter who I think will be watching online, and she is 
included in that penumbra.
    Upon graduation from law school, I worked for 7 years as a 
prosecutor in the criminal fraud section of the Justice 
Department here in Washington. Within weeks of arriving, I was 
sent over to Crystal City to meet with Admiral Hyman Rickover 
to support him in his litigation regarding cost overruns with 
contractors who were building the 688's, the Los Angeles-class 
attack submarines. As a young prosecutor, it was a thrill of a 
lifetime to work closely with the father of the nuclear Navy, 
and it was my first opportunity to witness up close the 
dedication and patriotism of the men and women serving in the 
military.
    Ever since, both in the government and out, I have actively 
sought to work with people in the Armed Forces and the 
companies who support them.
    Toward the end of my years in the Department of Justice, I 
was asked to create and lead a joint task force of DOJ and 
Department of Defense personnel that would, for the first time, 
focus on military procurement fraud. The task force included 
representatives of the Army, Navy and Air Force, the Defense 
Logistics Agency, the DoD Inspector General, and the Defense 
Contract Audit Agency. I am quite proud of the work we did, and 
the change in the compliant culture we advanced, one that 
encouraged compliance and transparency.
    In private practice I have had the good fortune to continue 
working in this field. I was cleared to have access to and work 
on issues related to the early development of the B-2 bomber, 
and I have also worked on matters related to the MX Missile, 
the AV-8B Harrier II jump jet, and the Air Launch Cruise 
Missile, among others.
    Working with contractors for all these years also brought 
me into close daily contact with the huge number of veterans 
and military families who have found a continued sense of 
purpose and service through their new profession.
    These are Americans who work tirelessly to support our 
troops, and their level of commitment to our country, and the 
people who defend it, is incredibly inspiring. It would be my 
great privilege to honor their service by doing my best to 
advance the mission articulated by Abraham Lincoln to care for 
veterans and their survivors.
    I believe that if confirmed I can materially contribute to 
the mission and Secretary McDonough's leadership. First, I 
believe I have the trust and confidence of the Secretary, a 
vital asset for a General Counsel. I come to the job with a 
detailed understanding of government procurement, an area 
targeted for improvement within the Department. I have spent 
much of my career dealing with the challenges of creating an 
open, ethically pristine, compliant atmosphere in large 
institutions, and with significant experience demonstrating for 
leaders of those institutions that the creation of such a 
culture is in everyone's best interest.
    Finally, my 7 years with the Justice Department were the 
most satisfying of my career, and to experience the 
satisfaction of working hard for the public interest, in the 
service of the country that gave my ancestors and extended 
family shelter when they fled persecution and violence in 
eastern Europe over 100 years ago, was an indescribable honor.
    I am ready to dive back into that service, especially 
knowing that the goal is to fulfill this critical and central 
responsibility as a Nation. I am comforted too by the sense 
that I am honoring my father and my father-in-law for their 
service to the Nation, as well as the families that supported 
them, whose sacrifices we should never overlook or forget.
    I commit to you that if confirmed I will work tirelessly to 
support and advance this mission, and I look forward to 
answering your questions.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Mr. Sauber. I am going to go 
last on my questions so I will go with Senator Moran.
    Senator Moran. Do you want me to do the same?
    Chairman Tester. Sure, if you would like.
    Senator Moran. Okay.
    Chairman Tester. Okay. Then we will go to Senator Hassan, 
virtually. Senator Hassan?

                  SENATOR MARGARET WOOD HASSAN

    Senator Hassan. I am right here. Thank you so much.
    Can you all hear me?
    Chairman Tester. We can. Rock and roll.
    Senator Hassan. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman
    Tester and Ranking Member Moran, and thank you, Mr. Sauber, 
for not only being here today but for your willingness to 
serve.
    Mr. Sauber, the Office of Special Counsel has repeatedly 
notified the VA of concerns with how it handles whistleblower 
claims, including claims made by whistleblowers at VA 
facilities that Granite State veterans rely on for their care.
    In March of this year, the Office of Special Counsel again 
found a VA response to a whistleblower complaint to be not 
reasonable, this time regarding allegations at the White River 
Junction Medical Center. This highly concerning pattern of the 
VA mishandling whistleblower complaints puts our veterans at 
risk by contributing to a culture where VA employees are not 
comfortable coming forward to report misconduct.
    As the VA General Counsel, how will you work to change how 
the VA handles whistleblower claims?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator. I read the 
reports, the public reports that you mentioned, and I think, to 
put it mildly, they are troubling. I have worked my entire 
private career to ensure that management understands that an 
open and transparent culture in an institution is in everyone's 
best interest. In a private world, it adds to the bottom line, 
and in a public institution it increases the efficacy of 
management.
    So I know I have spoken to Secretary McDonough about this, 
and he and I both agree that regardless of what has happened 
over the last several years, it is our goal to make sure that 
the culture in the Department is such that anyone feels free to 
come forward with an allegation, with some concern, and that 
that person should not be persecuted, we should not look into 
their file for any reason that I can think of. The focus will 
be on the allegation and how we can use that allegation to 
improve the function of the Department, and I pledge to you 
that that is what the Office of General Counsel will do, if I 
am confirmed.
    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. Will you also commit to 
reviewing the handling of whistleblower claims at White River 
Junction and working with our office on this matter, should you 
be confirmed?
    Mr. Sauber. Absolutely.
    Senator Hassan. Thank you. One additional question.
    The COVID-19 pandemic has led to a significant increase in 
the backlog of veterans' disability claims and appeals. This is 
something I hear about through our Constituent Services Office 
in New Hampshire regularly. Especially during these difficult 
times, it is more important than ever that the VA does 
everything it can to get veterans the benefits they have earned 
and they deserve in a timely manner.
    How can the Office of General Counsel help improve 
processes in order to reduce the current backlog and address 
ongoing delays?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. I noticed, in 
preparing for this hearing and being briefed, that there are a 
number of concerns and complaints across the board about delay 
in Department functions, especially in the one that you 
mentioned. And I can commit to you that one of the principal 
goals that I will have, if confirmed, is to make sure, first, 
that the Office of General Counsel does not add to the sand in 
the gear, that we play no role in any sort of bureaucratic 
inertia, and to do my best with other parts of the Department 
to make sure that speed is important and that a benefit delayed 
is a benefit denied, and I will do my best to make sure that 
does not happen.
    Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that very much and I 
would look forward to following up with you on that, as well as 
some of the things we have heard from VA employees may also be 
helpful as we try to address this issue.
    With that I will yield the rest of my time by also just 
adding my thanks not only to you but to your family for being 
willing to serve in this way. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Hassan. Senator Moran.
    Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you. Let me begin with this 
question. In one of your responses to the written questions, my 
inquiry was does the Department's authority to suspend 
Community Care under the MISSION Act exist? And your response 
was no basis on which to opine on the question, noting that you 
will review the law, the goals of the program, the priorities 
of the Secretary.
    That answer troubles me because I really am asking you, 
under the law--maybe your answer could have been, ``I will 
review the law.'' But if the law says that the MISSION Act is, 
what I think it is defined to be, if the answer to that 
question is what the law says then I think the goals of the 
program and the priorities of the Secretary become irrelevant. 
Am I missing something, and if you had now had a chance to 
review the law?
    Mr. Sauber. I have not dived into the law, but let me 
clarify, and really it is to pick up on something that the 
Chairman said. I mean, my job, if confirmed, as the General 
Counsel, will be to make sure that every aspect of the 
Department is following the law as it is articulated by 
congressional intent, and I do not see any legal room with 
respect to that. If the Secretary or other management officials 
within the Department disagree, I have no problem saying, 
``This is the law and this is what we should do.''
    Senator Moran. Thank you. I mean, it is the Secretary's 
decision on what happens at the Department, but it is your job 
to tell the Secretary what he is required to do, by law. Is 
that a truthful Statement?
    Mr. Sauber. Yes, and I have no problem articulating that to 
him.
    Senator Moran. Thank you. And then let me ask a question 
about, again, a statute. The Department is statutorily 
prohibited from providing abortion under Section 106 of the 
Veterans Health Care Act of 1992, authorizing the Secretary to 
provide women general reproductive health care.
    In response to a question about whether the Secretary had 
plans to make changes to the VA regulations regarding abortion 
service and abortion counseling, the Secretary, in that House 
committee, indicated that the Department is prohibited from 
providing these services, quote, ``under current regulations.'' 
I think that the Department is prohibited from providing these 
services under the law, not under the regulations, and I would 
ask you to confirm what the truth on that topic is.
    Mr. Sauber. Again, I am not intimately familiar with the 
particulars of that issue but I can assure you that my advice 
to the Secretary will be to look at the law and follow it 
consistent with the congressional intent, and if that is how it 
comes out then I will have no problem telling him that.
    Senator Moran. Thank you for that answer. And finally, the 
Secretary and I toured a number of veteran medical facilities 
in Kansas last week. We discussed a fallout from a slate of 
horrific sexual crimes that were perpetrated by a former VA 
physician assistant in Leavenworth. The Secretary shares my 
view about that the Department ought to have zero tolerance for 
policies for these incidents.
    But the incidents in Kansas and West Virginia and other 
locations across the country show that more needs to be done, 
both legislatively and administratively. If confirmed, what 
steps would you have in mind to ensure the Department deters 
and removes bad actors from harming veterans?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. Look, I think one 
of the things that, if confirmed, I will push for is an earlier 
answer to allegations. There should be an earlier report about 
what went wrong, why did it go wrong, and most particularly, 
what are the steps that we can take to ensure that a recurrence 
does not occur?
    And I know that the Secretary is dead-set against allowing 
any kind of misconduct within the Department and the sorts of 
misconduct that you mention and the one that took place in West 
Virginia are so abhorrent that we are going to focus on making 
sure that we have lessons learned and that we spread those 
lessons across the Department to make sure there is no 
recurrence.
    Senator Moran. Thank you very much for that answer as well. 
Mr. Sauber, I have no doubt that you and I and the Secretary 
and almost everyone else agrees on the horrific nature, and we 
want to protect our veterans. The question is working 
together--Congress, the administration--what can we do to make 
sure that, as you say, a decision is made earlier than it has 
been, that the perpetrator is removed, punished, and we want to 
be helpful in that regard. But thank you for sharing your view.
    Chairman Tester. Senator Blumenthal.

                   SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL

    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
your willingness to serve and for your past service, Mr. 
Sauber, and I am delighted that you are committed, as is our 
veteran Secretary to fight like hell for our veterans.
    I want to ask a few questions about the rights of veterans 
who have claims to benefits, service-connected benefits, as a 
result of toxic substances. Veterans suffering from Agent 
Orange had to wait years, and they were fought by the VA, even 
after a court decision that accorded them rights. They were 
slow-walked and stonewalled and fought by the VA. How would you 
look to prioritize expeditious review of VA appeals of toxic 
exposure cases?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. I have seen some 
of the public reports recently and some of the film, 
unfortunately, about the burn pit victims as well, which I 
think falls into a similar category. Again, our goal, and my 
goal should I be confirmed, is to have the veteran come first 
and have his or her family come first.
    So getting rid of, as I say, sand in the gears, any kind of 
delay in making a determination about the eligibility for 
benefits will be a goal that I will have, if confirmed, and I 
know that the Secretary feels the same way. No one who is 
deserving should wait so that they are on death's door before 
the benefits are given, and you have my commitment that I will 
do everything I can to make sure that those decisions are made 
more expeditiously than they have been.
    Senator Blumenthal. I hope that is true in practice.
    It is easy to say, but I hope that you will be able to come 
back to us, and I hope that you will commit to come back to us 
with specific steps you will take to prioritize those cases and 
make sure that veterans do not have to wait until they are 
about to die to get those benefits they deserve.
    Mr. Sauber. There is that and other areas of litigation. I 
know the Secretary, if confirmed, would like me to see if I can 
unravel, to the extent that we can find litigation where we 
should not be adverse to the very people that our mission is to 
help. We would like to untangle that, to the extent possible.
    Senator Blumenthal. Another area where the VA sometimes has 
been adverse to the people it is supposed to serve is in the 
area of less-than-honorable discharges. For 10 years this has 
been a mission of mine. I have worked every Secretary of 
Defense, beginning with Leon Panetta under President Obama, 
when I first came here, to try to upgrade the discharges, less-
than-honorable discharges, bad--paper discharges, of people who 
suffered from post-traumatic stress, many of them Vietnam 
veterans when nobody knew what post-traumatic stress was. It 
was not a part of our vocabulary. But they acted out, they 
acted against their superiors, they were discharged less than 
honorably, and so they were denied treatment for the very 
conditions that caused them to be less-than-honorably 
discharged.
    The challenge of enabling those people go through the 
Department of Defense access the Discharge Review Board still 
is there. It is not necessarily directly within your purview, 
but I hope you will commit to assisting the Department of 
Defense in that effort, as General Counsel of the VA, but also 
stop the unlawful turnaways, denial of health care, for 
veterans who have been less-than-honorably discharged and need 
the mental health care so they can go to work, avoid addiction 
to illicit substances, and so forth. We have seen this again 
and again and again.
    So my question is, how would you ensure that the VA 
cooperates with the Department of Defense in that effort and 
also how to ensure that the VA is, in fact, serving veterans 
with other-than-honorable discharges seeking mental health 
services?
    Mr. Sauber. I have read the public reports about that issue 
and it does seem to me, without getting in the details at this 
point as a nominee, a little bit circular, and I think you put 
your finger on the circularity of the problem.
    I know that Secretary McDonough has a close working 
relationship with the Secretary of Defense and he has said to 
me that he expects us, on a whole host of issues, including 
this one, to go out of our way to make sure that we are working 
together to achieve the ends that you suggest.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. Senator 
Tuberville?

                    SENATOR TOMMY TUBERVILLE

    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, 
Mr.--is it Sauber?
    Mr. Sauber. Sauber.
    Senator Tuberville. Sauber.
    Mr. Sauber. Yes.
    Senator Tuberville. I answer to Tuberville all the time, 
and people ask, ``How do you pronounce that?'' Thank you for 
being here, and your family. You and I have a lot in common. My 
dad quit high school to go to fight in World War II, and loved 
the military. My family was in it, and I did not serve in the 
military, and that is the reason I am here today. I retired 
after 40 years of coaching, and was fortunate enough to win the 
Senate seat here, and this is one of my goals was to try to be 
on this Committee. So I am here to help, as you are, so thank 
you for your service.
    Just a couple of questions. You know, I would like to ask 
you about your experience leading a team of lawyers in private 
practice and how that transfers to managing an extensive team 
of attorneys at the VA. In fact, the Office of the General 
Counsel has a total of 832 career employees, of which 586 are 
attorneys. I have had a lot of good problems with attorneys 
before.
    In this position, you will be defending the Secretary in 
litigation where veterans are seeking various medical and 
compensation benefits form the VA. Should you be confirmed, how 
do you plan to balance the needs of the veterans and defending 
the Secretary?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator.
    Senator Tuberville. Just call me ``coach.''
    Mr. Sauber. That is hard to do but I will call you 
``coach.''
    Senator Tuberville. Okay.
    Mr. Sauber. The Secretary has made clear to me that our 
touchstone here in regard to this litigation that you mentioned 
is that, at a minimum, the tie goes to the veteran. So we do 
not want to spend our time, if confirmed, being adverse to the 
very people that it is our mission to help them out. So we want 
to reduce, if at all humanly possible, as much as we can being 
adverse.
    I do not think the Secretary has any different view on 
that. He has told me that he wants to dial back some of the 
adversity that the last several years have been characterized 
by. As far as leading a group of lawyers that size, there is 
almost no job that has that scope, so that is one issue. But 
the leadership of a group of lawyers in the Department of 
Justice or in private practice, I think I have learned many of 
the sort of general characteristics of how best to lead a group 
of people. This particular group, the ones I met, this is a 
very fine group of career lawyers, and I think the very fact of 
the shared sense of mission makes the leadership of a group 
like this a little easier, and, if confirmed, I look forward to 
the challenge.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you very much. Just one more, to 
see if I can get a commitment from you on this.
    You know, the nationwide veteran suicide rate is 18 per 
day, and, I mean, this is tough, especially from guys like us 
that have veterans in our family. You know, the Hannon Act 
authorized $179 million for community grants, and it was 
enacted 6 months, 179 days ago. It still has not been developed 
into regulation, into the grant program.
    Should you be confirmed, can you commit to working with the 
VA colleagues to publish the regulations as swiftly as possible 
so we can get this done?
    Mr. Sauber. Yes, sir. In furtherance of what the Chairman 
said, any time Congress passes a law, if confirmed, it will be 
my job to make sure that we put that into effect as soon as 
humanly possible.
    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Sauber. I look forward 
to working with you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Tuberville. Senator 
Boozman?

                      SENATOR JOHN BOOZMAN

    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you so 
much for being here, Mr. Sauber. We appreciate your willingness 
to serve, and like Senator Tuberville, coach, my father also 
was in the military, and I think we all realize that those are 
family affairs and we are committed to helping in any way that 
we can, realizing that we are talking about earned benefits, 
not gimmes.
    But again, I would just reiterate the importance of the 
last question that Senator Tuberville talked about, you know, 
setting this program up. I visited with the Secretary. I think 
he is working very hard to get that done. These things take 
time and we want to do it right.
    But I just want to put that on your radar also and be sure 
and tell the Secretary we appreciate the fact that he is 
working on it. But as soon as we can get that done I think that 
the VA is in total agreement. That is just going to give you 
another weapon, another tool in the toolbox as we fight a 
problem that simply just has not changed very much in the last 
20 years.
    The VA's Office of General Counsel provides conclusive 
interpretation of legal matters for the VA in assisting in 
drafting and implementation of relevant legislation. The work 
of the Department that it does with Congress is so important to 
make sure that the intended legislation is reflected in the 
text.
    If confirmed, will you commit to providing the Committee 
with legal opinions on draft legislation detached from 
Department policy?
    Mr. Sauber. Yes, and I would like to take the opportunity, 
if I could, to say that I understand in the past there has been 
a designated lawyer in the Office of General Counsel to give 
direct legal technical assistance to the Committee, and absent 
something that I do not anticipate or know about in advance, 
that is a position and a relationship that it is my intent to 
resurrect and give life to.
    Senator Boozman. Good. Very good. And again, you have 
really covered so much of these things. Congress has made great 
strides to ensure that veterans are not taken advantage of when 
seeking services through the VA. However, there is always more 
that can be done to ensure that veterans do not fall victim to 
bad actors.
    If confirmed, can you commit to assisting Congress in 
closing these legal loopholes, whether you can do that 
administratively or if we need to provide additional 
legislation, that are allowing these groups to continue 
operating within the VA system?
    Mr. Sauber. Without question, yes.
    Senator Boozman. Good. Well, again, thank you so much. 
Thank you for your willingness to serve. We appreciate you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Boozman. Senator 
Sinema?
    [No response.]
    Chairman Tester. Senator Sinema? Going once, going twice. 
Senator Blackburn?

                    SENATOR MARSHA BLACKBURN

    Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had just a 
couple of questions, Mr. Sauber, and thank you for your 
willingness to serve.
    One of my concerns is the way the VA's budget has doubled 
over the past decade. It has gone from $122 billion in Fiscal 
Year 2011, and it is now at $243 billion. But what we have seen 
is we still have waits, we still have lack of access to health 
care, we still have frustrations that are coming from our 
veterans who deserve to get this care.
    So this is an area that we have to continue to work on to 
make certain that veterans are going to get access to care.
    So what role will you have, in the Office of General 
Counsel, in making certain that the VA is going to be a good 
steward of those dollars and put them into care instead of 
putting them into overhead?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think as 
I mentioned before I do see, in a number of the issues that I 
have been briefed on and that you raise, that there is 
substantial concern about delay, about the, at times, 
bureaucratic inertia. And what I can tell you is that one of my 
overarching goals, if confirmed, is to make sure that the 
Office of General Counsel does not become a choke point and 
that we, within the OGC, do everything we can to make sure that 
the dollars get where they belong in a timely fashion. And to 
the extent----
    Senator Blackburn. I am sorry. I want to make certain that 
you are going to likewise use all of those tools to make sure 
that the MISSION Act is fully implemented, because that will 
help veterans have access to care that is going to be closest 
to their home.
    Mr. Sauber. Yes, without question. The Secretary has 
indicated to me that he wants the MISSION Act fully 
implemented, and he wants the OGC to be a major partner in 
making sure that that happens.
    Senator Blackburn. Okay. And then, likewise, we want to 
make certain that this administration does not get on the track 
of trying to spend the next 4 years consolidating care back 
into VA facilities.
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. That is a question a little 
bit above my pay grade, but I will commit to you that the 
implementation of the MISSION Act and the associated acts and 
regulations is a high priority for the Secretary, and, as a 
consequence, I can commit to you that, if confirmed, it will be 
one for me too.
    Senator Blackburn. Well, thank you for that, and thank you 
also for your time in the call earlier. I appreciate that. And 
we talked about my concern over the health and well-being of 
veterans and the claims process, and how long it is taking VA 
claims to be processed fairly and in a timely manner, and the 
backlog that we have on those claims, 202,000 backlogged claims 
at the Veterans Benefits Administration.
    So how will you ensure that the VBA will implement the law 
objectively, in a way that will allow for a timely and 
consistent completion of these claims?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. The Secretary has made 
clear to me that, if confirmed, he wants OGC to play a major 
role in helping to reduce that backlog, which is unacceptable, 
and I can commit to you that is the focus of one of my 
priorities, if I am confirmed.
    Senator Blackburn. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you. Senator Sinema?

                     SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA

    Senator Sinema. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
our Ranking Member for holding this hearing. Mr. Sauber, 
congratulations on your nomination and thank you for being here 
today.
    I continue to be very concerned about veterans who are 
targeted by scammers. Veterans who receive compensation 
benefits are particularly sought-after targets. The VA's 
General Counsel has limitations on their authority to address 
complaints about potential predatory practices and scams that 
target veterans. If confirmed, what do you see as your role to 
fight against those who try to take advantage of veterans, and 
how will you partner with other Federal agencies and State 
attorney general offices to do so?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. Two or three things do come 
to mind. One, this is the sort of problem, I think, that is 
usually susceptible to an educational effort, so to figure out 
a way to get to veterans information about these potential 
scams, so that is one thing.
    Second, working with the Justice Department, but more 
importantly, as you put, the State attorneys general, which is 
an area that I have worked closely with those people all my 
life, and I will make sure that they focus on this issue.
    And finally, I have thought perhaps there are so many 
legal, pro bono groups that help veterans and that focus on 
veterans. You know, perhaps it might be an idea to put some of 
these volunteer lawyers in our health care facilities so that 
veterans who come there have immediate and easy access to a 
lawyer who might help them through some of the issues that you 
are discussing.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. The VA's General Counsel plays a 
critical role in everything the VA does, including ensuring 
that shared space and leasing agreements in VA construction 
projects can move forward. But the VA has pressing 
infrastructure demands, including at the VA medical center 
facilities in Arizona. Meeting these demands are critical to 
ensuring that veterans receive the care and support they have 
earned.
    It is a long-held belief at the local levels that a VISN's 
ability to enter into these agreements and move forward with 
construction contracts largely depends on the chief counsel in 
the districts and that some VISNs are afforded more flexibility 
while others are less.
    If confirmed as General Counsel, how will you work to 
ensure that the VA facilities across the enterprise have the 
flexibility they need to pursue much-needed facilities 
projects?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you. I do not know the particulars of 
what you are saying, but let me just commit to you that, if 
confirmed, the Office of General Counsel, all 500-some--odd 
lawyers, will speak with one voice, and if they do not, you 
know, that will be addressed quickly and decisively.
    As I mentioned in my Statement, I have spent a lot of years 
in and around government procurement, and I will do what I can 
to make sure that the flexibility that you mentioned is an 
appropriate way that all of the different districts can address 
their construction contracts.
    Senator Sinema. I appreciate that. I look forward to us 
following up on this issue. Because of these perceived 
inequities, we want to make sure we get that resolved.
    Mr. Sauber. Absolutely.
    Senator Sinema. Procurements are a critical part of the VA 
enterprise, whether it be for goods like medical supplies or 
services such as compensation and pension exams or facilities 
upgrades. The General Counsel plays a critical role in ensuring 
that the procurement practices meet the needs of the veterans 
it serves. During the pandemic, the procurement procedures were 
heavily stressed, and the VA, like many medical facilities, 
have problems securing enough supplies, most notably, PPE.
    Our office heard from staff at the Arizona VA medical 
centers who were extremely concerned about the lack of PPE.
    We worked locally to help meet those concerns. During this 
time, though, we also saw instances of counterfeit goods being 
sold to the VA.
    Now you have a background in procurement fraud. If 
confirmed, how will your background help equip you to address 
procurement needs and procurement fraud at the VA?
    Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. I do not know the 
details of how the Department handles its procurement, but I 
want to commit to you that that is an area that I will dive 
into, especially because I have the experience in it. And 
sometimes getting lawyers involved early in the writing and 
contract engagement is a help to avoid those kinds of issues, 
but I will look at that question seriously, if I am confirmed, 
and make sure that the procurement process is as smooth as it 
can be.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Sinema. I will make 
this painless with me. I only have one question, and that is--
and it is a yes or no answer--do you believe the VA has an 
obligation to be responsive to congressional oversight?
    Mr. Sauber. Yes.
    Chairman Tester. Right answer.
    Okay. I want to thank the Committee for its commitment to 
bipartisanship. I want to thank you, Mr. Sauber, for your 
willingness to serve in this important capacity. And I also 
want to thank your family for your support of your husband and 
father.
    For the information of all members, questions for the 
record need to be in by 5 p.m. tomorrow to the Committee Clerk, 
and the record of the hearing will remain open until the same 
time for any additional comments.
    In consultation with the Ranking Member, we have a new 
procedure that is going to start at the adjournment of this 
meeting, and that is that we are changing the recognition rules 
to give preference to those Senators who come to the Committee 
hearing in person. We will continue alternating between 
Democrats and Republicans, but starting at our next hearing, 
preference will be given to those who come to the Committee 
hearing in person. With that this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:49 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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