    [Senate Hearing 117-98]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 117-98

                     HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 APRIL 14, 2021

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                  __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    46-120 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jon Tester, Montana, Chairman
    Patty Murray, Washington             Jerry Moran,Kansas, Ranking Member
    Bernard Sanders, Vermont             John Boozman, Arkansas
    Sherrod Brown, Ohio                  Bill Cassidy, Louisiana
    Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut      Mike Rounds, South Dakota
    Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii              Thom Tillis, North Carolina
    Joe Manchin III, West Virginia       Dan Sullivan, Alaska
    Kyrsten Sinema, Arizona              Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee
    Margaret Wood Hassan New Hampshire   Kevin Cramer, North Dakota
                                         Tommy Tuberville, Alabama
                          Tony McClain, Staff Director
                     Jon Towers, Republican Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                           Wednesday, April 14, 2021

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Tester, Hon. Jon, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Montana............     1
    Moran, Hon. Jerry, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from Kansas......     2
    Hassan, Hon. Margaret Wood, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire......     4
    Blumenthal, Hon. Richard, U.S. Senator from Connecticut..........     7
    Tuberville, Hon. Tommy., U.S. Senator from Alabama...............     9
    Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas...................    10
    Blackburn, Hon. Marsha, U.S. Senator from Tennessee..............    11
    Sinema, Hon. Kyrsten, U.S. Senator from Arizona..................    12

                                    WITNESS

    Richard A. Sauber, Nominee to be General Counsel of the
      Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     3

                                    APPENDIX
                               Prepared Statement

    Richard A. Sauber, Nominee to be General Counsel of the
      Department of Veterans Affairs.................................    16

                            Questions for the Record

    Response to Pre-hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
      Hon. Tester....................................................    19
      Hon. Moran.....................................................    30

    Response to Post-hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
      Hon. Moran.....................................................    39
      Hon. Murray....................................................    40
      Hon. Blackburn.................................................    43
      Hon. Brown.....................................................    44
    Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees..........................    45

                     HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATION

                                  ----------

                           WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 2021

                                           U.S. Senate,
                                Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3 p.m., in Room
    106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, and via Webex, Hon. Jon
    Tester, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. Present: Tester,
    Brown, Blumenthal, Sinema, Hassan, Moran, Boozman, Cassidy,
    Tillis, Blackburn, and Tuberville.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN TESTER

        Chairman Tester. I want to call this hearing on the
    confirmation of Richard Stauber to serve as General Counsel for
    the Department of Veterans Affairs to order. I want to welcome
    Mr. Sauber. I hope I am not butchering your name. I never asked
    for a phonetic pronunciation.
        Mr. Sauber. That is correct.
        Chairman Tester. Good. But I want to welcome Mr. Sauber and
    his family here today, and thank him for the willingness to
    serve. I want to flag, for the members, that we have two votes
    beginning at 3:30, and I plan to wrap this hearing up in time
    for me to head over for the end of the first vote, which would
    mean you can go too.
        We will leave the record open to include Statements and
    post-hearing questions until 5 p.m. tomorrow. Senator Moran,
    how does that sound to you?
        Senator Moran. Mr. Chairman, as usual I have no objection
    to your thoughts. Well, I do not know about your thoughts. I
    have no objection to what you just said.
        Chairman Tester. That is good. You are a great human being.
    And I will put my full Statement into the record, but I want to
    say a few words about the nominee, and to the nominee. If
    confirmed, you will be looked upon to provide a comprehensive
    evaluation of legislation. This is no small task. In fact, in
    recent years, VA's interpretation of statute has not been in
    keeping with congressional intent. That is a problem and one I
    will look to you to solve.
        VA has also recently appealed several cases from the Court
    of Appeals of Veterans Claims to this court of appeals for the
    Federal circuit. These cases span a range of issues, including
    emergency care reimbursements. In Wolfe, the Department has
    failed to appropriately interpret the law.
        Now there are veterans who have been waiting for care,
    waiting for years to be reimbursed for emergency room care.
        One avoidable fact with this case is that appropriately
    applying the law will come at a cost. I want to say clearly to
    you that money should not matter when it comes to our nation's
    veterans. Fairness does.
        I look forward to our discussion today and thank you again
    for your willingness to serve on behalf of our nation's
    veterans and their families. Senator Moran.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORAN

        Senator Moran. Chairman Tester, thank you. I too will cut
    my opening remarks short but do want to say a few things
    because I want to make clear what I am looking for in the job--
    for the individual we are about to confirm, and I would not
    want to discount the value of this hearing by shortening it,
    particularly for you but also for your wife and daughter.
        So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for your past public
    service and your interest in serving the Department of Veterans
    Affairs and the veterans that that department serves. I look
    forward to assisting you, being your ally, and seeing that good
    things happen at the Department.
        But I, too, would share the concern that was mentioned by
    the Chairman. In too many instances, we have had difficulty in
    getting the Department of Veterans Affairs to interpret the
    legislation as written. Too many times the law becomes
    something that is seemingly ignored at the Department, and they
    have their own thing and want to do it their own way. And I
    would insist that you, in your capacity, lead the effort to
    make certain that congressional acts of law, as written, as
    intended, are implemented at the Department of Veterans Affairs
    in compliance with those criteria.
        I also, as the Chairman said, look forward to your
    leadership in helping the Veterans Benefit Administration, the
    Board of Veterans Appeals, and the Court of Appeals of Veterans
    Claims to work through the backlog. And last, I would indicate
    you have significant responsibilities to promote official
    compliance with Federal ethics laws and ensure that the work
    force is free from bad actors that do not share the VA's
    mission for caring for our nation's veterans.
        While one part of this effort is cultural, making certain
    the VA's employees identify and report bad actors, VA
    leadership, along with the General Counsel, must make certain
    that those individuals are removed from employment within the
    Department of Veterans Affairs.
        I look forward to your testimony and appreciate your
    presence today and your willingness to serve.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Moran. Before we start
    with your testimony, Mr. Sauber, would you stand up please to
    take the oath. Please stand and raise your right hand, which
    you have done.
        Do you, Richard Sauber, solemnly swear or affirm that the
    testimony you are about to give before the United States Senate
    Committee on Veterans' Affairs will be the truth, the whole
    truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
        Mr. Sauber. I do.
        Chairman Tester. Let the record reflect that candidate
    responded in the affirmative.
        You have the floor, Mr. Sauber.

     STATEMENT OF RICHARD A. SAUBER, NOMINEE TO BE GENERAL COUNSEL
                 OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

        Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member.
    Let me just read my Statement and I will try to do it quickly,
    given the timeframe that we have.
        I am honored to be President Biden's nominee for the
    position of General Counsel at the Department of Veterans
    Affairs. If confirmed by the Senate, I pledge to you that I
    will join and support Secretary McDonough's unequivocal
    commitment made to this committee to fulfill our sacred
    obligation to care for veterans who gave their all to protect
    our Nation and to assist their caregivers, families, and
    survivors whose sacrifices have played a vital role in support
    of our veterans.
        It would also be my honor to serve in this position as my
    own contribution and expression of gratitude to the men and
    women who have served in our Armed Forces, and especially to
    honor the service of my father, who quit school to serve in the
    Army at the start of World War II, and my father-in-law, a 1955
    graduate of West Point who served in the Army for 20 years,
    including service in Vietnam. He and my mother-in-law are
    interred together in Arlington National Cemetery.
        You have already, Mr. Chairman, recognized my wife and
    daughter. I want to just introduce them again to the Committee.
    I would not be here without their support and love. We have one
    other daughter who I think will be watching online, and she is
    included in that penumbra.
        Upon graduation from law school, I worked for 7 years as a
    prosecutor in the criminal fraud section of the Justice
    Department here in Washington. Within weeks of arriving, I was
    sent over to Crystal City to meet with Admiral Hyman Rickover
    to support him in his litigation regarding cost overruns with
    contractors who were building the 688's, the Los Angeles-class
    attack submarines. As a young prosecutor, it was a thrill of a
    lifetime to work closely with the father of the nuclear Navy,
    and it was my first opportunity to witness up close the
    dedication and patriotism of the men and women serving in the
    military.
        Ever since, both in the government and out, I have actively
    sought to work with people in the Armed Forces and the
    companies who support them.
        Toward the end of my years in the Department of Justice, I
    was asked to create and lead a joint task force of DOJ and
    Department of Defense personnel that would, for the first time,
    focus on military procurement fraud. The task force included
    representatives of the Army, Navy and Air Force, the Defense
    Logistics Agency, the DoD Inspector General, and the Defense
    Contract Audit Agency. I am quite proud of the work we did, and
    the change in the compliant culture we advanced, one that
    encouraged compliance and transparency.
        In private practice I have had the good fortune to continue
    working in this field. I was cleared to have access to and work
    on issues related to the early development of the B-2 bomber,
    and I have also worked on matters related to the MX Missile,
    the AV-8B Harrier II jump jet, and the Air Launch Cruise
    Missile, among others.
        Working with contractors for all these years also brought
    me into close daily contact with the huge number of veterans
    and military families who have found a continued sense of
    purpose and service through their new profession.
        These are Americans who work tirelessly to support our
    troops, and their level of commitment to our country, and the
    people who defend it, is incredibly inspiring. It would be my
    great privilege to honor their service by doing my best to
    advance the mission articulated by Abraham Lincoln to care for
    veterans and their survivors.
        I believe that if confirmed I can materially contribute to
    the mission and Secretary McDonough's leadership. First, I
    believe I have the trust and confidence of the Secretary, a
    vital asset for a General Counsel. I come to the job with a
    detailed understanding of government procurement, an area
    targeted for improvement within the Department. I have spent
    much of my career dealing with the challenges of creating an
    open, ethically pristine, compliant atmosphere in large
    institutions, and with significant experience demonstrating for
    leaders of those institutions that the creation of such a
    culture is in everyone's best interest.
        Finally, my 7 years with the Justice Department were the
    most satisfying of my career, and to experience the
    satisfaction of working hard for the public interest, in the
    service of the country that gave my ancestors and extended
    family shelter when they fled persecution and violence in
    eastern Europe over 100 years ago, was an indescribable honor.
        I am ready to dive back into that service, especially
    knowing that the goal is to fulfill this critical and central
    responsibility as a Nation. I am comforted too by the sense
    that I am honoring my father and my father-in-law for their
    service to the Nation, as well as the families that supported
    them, whose sacrifices we should never overlook or forget.
        I commit to you that if confirmed I will work tirelessly to
    support and advance this mission, and I look forward to
    answering your questions.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Mr. Sauber. I am going to go
    last on my questions so I will go with Senator Moran.
        Senator Moran. Do you want me to do the same?
        Chairman Tester. Sure, if you would like.
        Senator Moran. Okay.
        Chairman Tester. Okay. Then we will go to Senator Hassan,
    virtually. Senator Hassan?

                      SENATOR MARGARET WOOD HASSAN

        Senator Hassan. I am right here. Thank you so much.
        Can you all hear me?
        Chairman Tester. We can. Rock and roll.
        Senator Hassan. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman
        Tester and Ranking Member Moran, and thank you, Mr. Sauber,
    for not only being here today but for your willingness to
    serve.
        Mr. Sauber, the Office of Special Counsel has repeatedly
    notified the VA of concerns with how it handles whistleblower
    claims, including claims made by whistleblowers at VA
    facilities that Granite State veterans rely on for their care.
        In March of this year, the Office of Special Counsel again
    found a VA response to a whistleblower complaint to be not
    reasonable, this time regarding allegations at the White River
    Junction Medical Center. This highly concerning pattern of the
    VA mishandling whistleblower complaints puts our veterans at
    risk by contributing to a culture where VA employees are not
    comfortable coming forward to report misconduct.
        As the VA General Counsel, how will you work to change how
    the VA handles whistleblower claims?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator. I read the
    reports, the public reports that you mentioned, and I think, to
    put it mildly, they are troubling. I have worked my entire
    private career to ensure that management understands that an
    open and transparent culture in an institution is in everyone's
    best interest. In a private world, it adds to the bottom line,
    and in a public institution it increases the efficacy of
    management.
        So I know I have spoken to Secretary McDonough about this,
    and he and I both agree that regardless of what has happened
    over the last several years, it is our goal to make sure that
    the culture in the Department is such that anyone feels free to
    come forward with an allegation, with some concern, and that
    that person should not be persecuted, we should not look into
    their file for any reason that I can think of. The focus will
    be on the allegation and how we can use that allegation to
    improve the function of the Department, and I pledge to you
    that that is what the Office of General Counsel will do, if I
    am confirmed.
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. Will you also commit to
    reviewing the handling of whistleblower claims at White River
    Junction and working with our office on this matter, should you
    be confirmed?
        Mr. Sauber. Absolutely.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you. One additional question.
        The COVID-19 pandemic has led to a significant increase in
    the backlog of veterans' disability claims and appeals. This is
    something I hear about through our Constituent Services Office
    in New Hampshire regularly. Especially during these difficult
    times, it is more important than ever that the VA does
    everything it can to get veterans the benefits they have earned
    and they deserve in a timely manner.
        How can the Office of General Counsel help improve
    processes in order to reduce the current backlog and address
    ongoing delays?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. I noticed, in
    preparing for this hearing and being briefed, that there are a
    number of concerns and complaints across the board about delay
    in Department functions, especially in the one that you
    mentioned. And I can commit to you that one of the principal
    goals that I will have, if confirmed, is to make sure, first,
    that the Office of General Counsel does not add to the sand in
    the gear, that we play no role in any sort of bureaucratic
    inertia, and to do my best with other parts of the Department
    to make sure that speed is important and that a benefit delayed
    is a benefit denied, and I will do my best to make sure that
    does not happen.
        Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that very much and I
    would look forward to following up with you on that, as well as
    some of the things we have heard from VA employees may also be
    helpful as we try to address this issue.
        With that I will yield the rest of my time by also just
    adding my thanks not only to you but to your family for being
    willing to serve in this way. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Hassan. Senator Moran.
        Senator Moran. Chairman, thank you. Let me begin with this
    question. In one of your responses to the written questions, my
    inquiry was does the Department's authority to suspend
    Community Care under the MISSION Act exist? And your response
    was no basis on which to opine on the question, noting that you
    will review the law, the goals of the program, the priorities
    of the Secretary.
        That answer troubles me because I really am asking you,
    under the law--maybe your answer could have been, ``I will
    review the law.'' But if the law says that the MISSION Act is,
    what I think it is defined to be, if the answer to that
    question is what the law says then I think the goals of the
    program and the priorities of the Secretary become irrelevant.
    Am I missing something, and if you had now had a chance to
    review the law?
        Mr. Sauber. I have not dived into the law, but let me
    clarify, and really it is to pick up on something that the
    Chairman said. I mean, my job, if confirmed, as the General
    Counsel, will be to make sure that every aspect of the
    Department is following the law as it is articulated by
    congressional intent, and I do not see any legal room with
    respect to that. If the Secretary or other management officials
    within the Department disagree, I have no problem saying,
    ``This is the law and this is what we should do.''
        Senator Moran. Thank you. I mean, it is the Secretary's
    decision on what happens at the Department, but it is your job
    to tell the Secretary what he is required to do, by law. Is
    that a truthful Statement?
        Mr. Sauber. Yes, and I have no problem articulating that to
    him.
        Senator Moran. Thank you. And then let me ask a question
    about, again, a statute. The Department is statutorily
    prohibited from providing abortion under Section 106 of the
    Veterans Health Care Act of 1992, authorizing the Secretary to
    provide women general reproductive health care.
        In response to a question about whether the Secretary had
    plans to make changes to the VA regulations regarding abortion
    service and abortion counseling, the Secretary, in that House
    committee, indicated that the Department is prohibited from
    providing these services, quote, ``under current regulations.''
    I think that the Department is prohibited from providing these
    services under the law, not under the regulations, and I would
    ask you to confirm what the truth on that topic is.
        Mr. Sauber. Again, I am not intimately familiar with the
    particulars of that issue but I can assure you that my advice
    to the Secretary will be to look at the law and follow it
    consistent with the congressional intent, and if that is how it
    comes out then I will have no problem telling him that.
        Senator Moran. Thank you for that answer. And finally, the
    Secretary and I toured a number of veteran medical facilities
    in Kansas last week. We discussed a fallout from a slate of
    horrific sexual crimes that were perpetrated by a former VA
    physician assistant in Leavenworth. The Secretary shares my
    view about that the Department ought to have zero tolerance for
    policies for these incidents.
        But the incidents in Kansas and West Virginia and other
    locations across the country show that more needs to be done,
    both legislatively and administratively. If confirmed, what
    steps would you have in mind to ensure the Department deters
    and removes bad actors from harming veterans?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. Look, I think one
    of the things that, if confirmed, I will push for is an earlier
    answer to allegations. There should be an earlier report about
    what went wrong, why did it go wrong, and most particularly,
    what are the steps that we can take to ensure that a recurrence
    does not occur?
        And I know that the Secretary is dead-set against allowing
    any kind of misconduct within the Department and the sorts of
    misconduct that you mention and the one that took place in West
    Virginia are so abhorrent that we are going to focus on making
    sure that we have lessons learned and that we spread those
    lessons across the Department to make sure there is no
    recurrence.
        Senator Moran. Thank you very much for that answer as well.
    Mr. Sauber, I have no doubt that you and I and the Secretary
    and almost everyone else agrees on the horrific nature, and we
    want to protect our veterans. The question is working
    together--Congress, the administration--what can we do to make
    sure that, as you say, a decision is made earlier than it has
    been, that the perpetrator is removed, punished, and we want to
    be helpful in that regard. But thank you for sharing your view.
        Chairman Tester. Senator Blumenthal.

                       SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL

        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for
    your willingness to serve and for your past service, Mr.
    Sauber, and I am delighted that you are committed, as is our
    veteran Secretary to fight like hell for our veterans.
        I want to ask a few questions about the rights of veterans
    who have claims to benefits, service-connected benefits, as a
    result of toxic substances. Veterans suffering from Agent
    Orange had to wait years, and they were fought by the VA, even
    after a court decision that accorded them rights. They were
    slow-walked and stonewalled and fought by the VA. How would you
    look to prioritize expeditious review of VA appeals of toxic
    exposure cases?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. I have seen some
    of the public reports recently and some of the film,
    unfortunately, about the burn pit victims as well, which I
    think falls into a similar category. Again, our goal, and my
    goal should I be confirmed, is to have the veteran come first
    and have his or her family come first.
        So getting rid of, as I say, sand in the gears, any kind of
    delay in making a determination about the eligibility for
    benefits will be a goal that I will have, if confirmed, and I
    know that the Secretary feels the same way. No one who is
    deserving should wait so that they are on death's door before
    the benefits are given, and you have my commitment that I will
    do everything I can to make sure that those decisions are made
    more expeditiously than they have been.
        Senator Blumenthal. I hope that is true in practice.
        It is easy to say, but I hope that you will be able to come
    back to us, and I hope that you will commit to come back to us
    with specific steps you will take to prioritize those cases and
    make sure that veterans do not have to wait until they are
    about to die to get those benefits they deserve.
        Mr. Sauber. There is that and other areas of litigation. I
    know the Secretary, if confirmed, would like me to see if I can
    unravel, to the extent that we can find litigation where we
    should not be adverse to the very people that our mission is to
    help. We would like to untangle that, to the extent possible.
        Senator Blumenthal. Another area where the VA sometimes has
    been adverse to the people it is supposed to serve is in the
    area of less-than-honorable discharges. For 10 years this has
    been a mission of mine. I have worked every Secretary of
    Defense, beginning with Leon Panetta under President Obama,
    when I first came here, to try to upgrade the discharges, less-
    than-honorable discharges, bad--paper discharges, of people who
    suffered from post-traumatic stress, many of them Vietnam
    veterans when nobody knew what post-traumatic stress was. It
    was not a part of our vocabulary. But they acted out, they
    acted against their superiors, they were discharged less than
    honorably, and so they were denied treatment for the very
    conditions that caused them to be less-than-honorably
    discharged.
        The challenge of enabling those people go through the
    Department of Defense access the Discharge Review Board still
    is there. It is not necessarily directly within your purview,
    but I hope you will commit to assisting the Department of
    Defense in that effort, as General Counsel of the VA, but also
    stop the unlawful turnaways, denial of health care, for
    veterans who have been less-than-honorably discharged and need
    the mental health care so they can go to work, avoid addiction
    to illicit substances, and so forth. We have seen this again
    and again and again.
        So my question is, how would you ensure that the VA
    cooperates with the Department of Defense in that effort and
    also how to ensure that the VA is, in fact, serving veterans
    with other-than-honorable discharges seeking mental health
    services?
        Mr. Sauber. I have read the public reports about that issue
    and it does seem to me, without getting in the details at this
    point as a nominee, a little bit circular, and I think you put
    your finger on the circularity of the problem.
        I know that Secretary McDonough has a close working
    relationship with the Secretary of Defense and he has said to
    me that he expects us, on a whole host of issues, including
    this one, to go out of our way to make sure that we are working
    together to achieve the ends that you suggest.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. Senator
    Tuberville?

                        SENATOR TOMMY TUBERVILLE

        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you,
    Mr.--is it Sauber?
        Mr. Sauber. Sauber.
        Senator Tuberville. Sauber.
        Mr. Sauber. Yes.
        Senator Tuberville. I answer to Tuberville all the time,
    and people ask, ``How do you pronounce that?'' Thank you for
    being here, and your family. You and I have a lot in common. My
    dad quit high school to go to fight in World War II, and loved
    the military. My family was in it, and I did not serve in the
    military, and that is the reason I am here today. I retired
    after 40 years of coaching, and was fortunate enough to win the
    Senate seat here, and this is one of my goals was to try to be
    on this Committee. So I am here to help, as you are, so thank
    you for your service.
        Just a couple of questions. You know, I would like to ask
    you about your experience leading a team of lawyers in private
    practice and how that transfers to managing an extensive team
    of attorneys at the VA. In fact, the Office of the General
    Counsel has a total of 832 career employees, of which 586 are
    attorneys. I have had a lot of good problems with attorneys
    before.
        In this position, you will be defending the Secretary in
    litigation where veterans are seeking various medical and
    compensation benefits form the VA. Should you be confirmed, how
    do you plan to balance the needs of the veterans and defending
    the Secretary?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator.
        Senator Tuberville. Just call me ``coach.''
        Mr. Sauber. That is hard to do but I will call you
    ``coach.''
        Senator Tuberville. Okay.
        Mr. Sauber. The Secretary has made clear to me that our
    touchstone here in regard to this litigation that you mentioned
    is that, at a minimum, the tie goes to the veteran. So we do
    not want to spend our time, if confirmed, being adverse to the
    very people that it is our mission to help them out. So we want
    to reduce, if at all humanly possible, as much as we can being
    adverse.
        I do not think the Secretary has any different view on
    that. He has told me that he wants to dial back some of the
    adversity that the last several years have been characterized
    by. As far as leading a group of lawyers that size, there is
    almost no job that has that scope, so that is one issue. But
    the leadership of a group of lawyers in the Department of
    Justice or in private practice, I think I have learned many of
    the sort of general characteristics of how best to lead a group
    of people. This particular group, the ones I met, this is a
    very fine group of career lawyers, and I think the very fact of
    the shared sense of mission makes the leadership of a group
    like this a little easier, and, if confirmed, I look forward to
    the challenge.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you very much. Just one more, to
    see if I can get a commitment from you on this.
        You know, the nationwide veteran suicide rate is 18 per
    day, and, I mean, this is tough, especially from guys like us
    that have veterans in our family. You know, the Hannon Act
    authorized $179 million for community grants, and it was
    enacted 6 months, 179 days ago. It still has not been developed
    into regulation, into the grant program.
        Should you be confirmed, can you commit to working with the
    VA colleagues to publish the regulations as swiftly as possible
    so we can get this done?
        Mr. Sauber. Yes, sir. In furtherance of what the Chairman
    said, any time Congress passes a law, if confirmed, it will be
    my job to make sure that we put that into effect as soon as
    humanly possible.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Sauber. I look forward
    to working with you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Tuberville. Senator
    Boozman?

                          SENATOR JOHN BOOZMAN

        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you so
    much for being here, Mr. Sauber. We appreciate your willingness
    to serve, and like Senator Tuberville, coach, my father also
    was in the military, and I think we all realize that those are
    family affairs and we are committed to helping in any way that
    we can, realizing that we are talking about earned benefits,
    not gimmes.
        But again, I would just reiterate the importance of the
    last question that Senator Tuberville talked about, you know,
    setting this program up. I visited with the Secretary. I think
    he is working very hard to get that done. These things take
    time and we want to do it right.
        But I just want to put that on your radar also and be sure
    and tell the Secretary we appreciate the fact that he is
    working on it. But as soon as we can get that done I think that
    the VA is in total agreement. That is just going to give you
    another weapon, another tool in the toolbox as we fight a
    problem that simply just has not changed very much in the last
    20 years.
        The VA's Office of General Counsel provides conclusive
    interpretation of legal matters for the VA in assisting in
    drafting and implementation of relevant legislation. The work
    of the Department that it does with Congress is so important to
    make sure that the intended legislation is reflected in the
    text.
        If confirmed, will you commit to providing the Committee
    with legal opinions on draft legislation detached from
    Department policy?
        Mr. Sauber. Yes, and I would like to take the opportunity,
    if I could, to say that I understand in the past there has been
    a designated lawyer in the Office of General Counsel to give
    direct legal technical assistance to the Committee, and absent
    something that I do not anticipate or know about in advance,
    that is a position and a relationship that it is my intent to
    resurrect and give life to.
        Senator Boozman. Good. Very good. And again, you have
    really covered so much of these things. Congress has made great
    strides to ensure that veterans are not taken advantage of when
    seeking services through the VA. However, there is always more
    that can be done to ensure that veterans do not fall victim to
    bad actors.
        If confirmed, can you commit to assisting Congress in
    closing these legal loopholes, whether you can do that
    administratively or if we need to provide additional
    legislation, that are allowing these groups to continue
    operating within the VA system?
        Mr. Sauber. Without question, yes.
        Senator Boozman. Good. Well, again, thank you so much.
    Thank you for your willingness to serve. We appreciate you, Mr.
    Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Boozman. Senator
    Sinema?
        [No response.]
        Chairman Tester. Senator Sinema? Going once, going twice.
    Senator Blackburn?

                        SENATOR MARSHA BLACKBURN

        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had just a
    couple of questions, Mr. Sauber, and thank you for your
    willingness to serve.
        One of my concerns is the way the VA's budget has doubled
    over the past decade. It has gone from $122 billion in Fiscal
    Year 2011, and it is now at $243 billion. But what we have seen
    is we still have waits, we still have lack of access to health
    care, we still have frustrations that are coming from our
    veterans who deserve to get this care.
        So this is an area that we have to continue to work on to
    make certain that veterans are going to get access to care.
        So what role will you have, in the Office of General
    Counsel, in making certain that the VA is going to be a good
    steward of those dollars and put them into care instead of
    putting them into overhead?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think as
    I mentioned before I do see, in a number of the issues that I
    have been briefed on and that you raise, that there is
    substantial concern about delay, about the, at times,
    bureaucratic inertia. And what I can tell you is that one of my
    overarching goals, if confirmed, is to make sure that the
    Office of General Counsel does not become a choke point and
    that we, within the OGC, do everything we can to make sure that
    the dollars get where they belong in a timely fashion. And to
    the extent----
        Senator Blackburn. I am sorry. I want to make certain that
    you are going to likewise use all of those tools to make sure
    that the MISSION Act is fully implemented, because that will
    help veterans have access to care that is going to be closest
    to their home.
        Mr. Sauber. Yes, without question. The Secretary has
    indicated to me that he wants the MISSION Act fully
    implemented, and he wants the OGC to be a major partner in
    making sure that that happens.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. And then, likewise, we want to
    make certain that this administration does not get on the track
    of trying to spend the next 4 years consolidating care back
    into VA facilities.
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. That is a question a little
    bit above my pay grade, but I will commit to you that the
    implementation of the MISSION Act and the associated acts and
    regulations is a high priority for the Secretary, and, as a
    consequence, I can commit to you that, if confirmed, it will be
    one for me too.
        Senator Blackburn. Well, thank you for that, and thank you
    also for your time in the call earlier. I appreciate that. And
    we talked about my concern over the health and well-being of
    veterans and the claims process, and how long it is taking VA
    claims to be processed fairly and in a timely manner, and the
    backlog that we have on those claims, 202,000 backlogged claims
    at the Veterans Benefits Administration.
        So how will you ensure that the VBA will implement the law
    objectively, in a way that will allow for a timely and
    consistent completion of these claims?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. The Secretary has made
    clear to me that, if confirmed, he wants OGC to play a major
    role in helping to reduce that backlog, which is unacceptable,
    and I can commit to you that is the focus of one of my
    priorities, if I am confirmed.
        Senator Blackburn. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you,
    Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you. Senator Sinema?

                         SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA

        Senator Sinema. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to
    our Ranking Member for holding this hearing. Mr. Sauber,
    congratulations on your nomination and thank you for being here
    today.
        I continue to be very concerned about veterans who are
    targeted by scammers. Veterans who receive compensation
    benefits are particularly sought-after targets. The VA's
    General Counsel has limitations on their authority to address
    complaints about potential predatory practices and scams that
    target veterans. If confirmed, what do you see as your role to
    fight against those who try to take advantage of veterans, and
    how will you partner with other Federal agencies and State
    attorney general offices to do so?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you, Senator. Two or three things do come
    to mind. One, this is the sort of problem, I think, that is
    usually susceptible to an educational effort, so to figure out
    a way to get to veterans information about these potential
    scams, so that is one thing.
        Second, working with the Justice Department, but more
    importantly, as you put, the State attorneys general, which is
    an area that I have worked closely with those people all my
    life, and I will make sure that they focus on this issue.
        And finally, I have thought perhaps there are so many
    legal, pro bono groups that help veterans and that focus on
    veterans. You know, perhaps it might be an idea to put some of
    these volunteer lawyers in our health care facilities so that
    veterans who come there have immediate and easy access to a
    lawyer who might help them through some of the issues that you
    are discussing.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. The VA's General Counsel plays a
    critical role in everything the VA does, including ensuring
    that shared space and leasing agreements in VA construction
    projects can move forward. But the VA has pressing
    infrastructure demands, including at the VA medical center
    facilities in Arizona. Meeting these demands are critical to
    ensuring that veterans receive the care and support they have
    earned.
        It is a long-held belief at the local levels that a VISN's
    ability to enter into these agreements and move forward with
    construction contracts largely depends on the chief counsel in
    the districts and that some VISNs are afforded more flexibility
    while others are less.
        If confirmed as General Counsel, how will you work to
    ensure that the VA facilities across the enterprise have the
    flexibility they need to pursue much-needed facilities
    projects?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you. I do not know the particulars of
    what you are saying, but let me just commit to you that, if
    confirmed, the Office of General Counsel, all 500-some--odd
    lawyers, will speak with one voice, and if they do not, you
    know, that will be addressed quickly and decisively.
        As I mentioned in my Statement, I have spent a lot of years
    in and around government procurement, and I will do what I can
    to make sure that the flexibility that you mentioned is an
    appropriate way that all of the different districts can address
    their construction contracts.
        Senator Sinema. I appreciate that. I look forward to us
    following up on this issue. Because of these perceived
    inequities, we want to make sure we get that resolved.
        Mr. Sauber. Absolutely.
        Senator Sinema. Procurements are a critical part of the VA
    enterprise, whether it be for goods like medical supplies or
    services such as compensation and pension exams or facilities
    upgrades. The General Counsel plays a critical role in ensuring
    that the procurement practices meet the needs of the veterans
    it serves. During the pandemic, the procurement procedures were
    heavily stressed, and the VA, like many medical facilities,
    have problems securing enough supplies, most notably, PPE.
        Our office heard from staff at the Arizona VA medical
    centers who were extremely concerned about the lack of PPE.
        We worked locally to help meet those concerns. During this
    time, though, we also saw instances of counterfeit goods being
    sold to the VA.
        Now you have a background in procurement fraud. If
    confirmed, how will your background help equip you to address
    procurement needs and procurement fraud at the VA?
        Mr. Sauber. Thank you for that question. I do not know the
    details of how the Department handles its procurement, but I
    want to commit to you that that is an area that I will dive
    into, especially because I have the experience in it. And
    sometimes getting lawyers involved early in the writing and
    contract engagement is a help to avoid those kinds of issues,
    but I will look at that question seriously, if I am confirmed,
    and make sure that the procurement process is as smooth as it
    can be.
        Senator Sinema. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Tester. Thank you, Senator Sinema. I will make
    this painless with me. I only have one question, and that is--
    and it is a yes or no answer--do you believe the VA has an
    obligation to be responsive to congressional oversight?
        Mr. Sauber. Yes.
        Chairman Tester. Right answer.
        Okay. I want to thank the Committee for its commitment to
    bipartisanship. I want to thank you, Mr. Sauber, for your
    willingness to serve in this important capacity. And I also
    want to thank your family for your support of your husband and
    father.
        For the information of all members, questions for the
    record need to be in by 5 p.m. tomorrow to the Committee Clerk,
    and the record of the hearing will remain open until the same
    time for any additional comments.
        In consultation with the Ranking Member, we have a new
    procedure that is going to start at the adjournment of this
    meeting, and that is that we are changing the recognition rules
    to give preference to those Senators who come to the Committee
    hearing in person. We will continue alternating between
    Democrats and Republicans, but starting at our next hearing,
    preference will be given to those who come to the Committee
    hearing in person. With that this hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:49 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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