[Senate Hearing 117-484]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 117-484

               TRANSPORTATION, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVEL-
                OPMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES APPRO-
                PRIATIONS FOR FISCAL YEAR 2022

=======================================================================

                                HEARINGS

                               BEFORE A

                          SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

            COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                                   ON

                               H.R. 4550

  AN ACT MAKING APPROPRIATIONS FOR THE DEPARTMENTS OF TRANSPORTATION, 
HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 
           ENDING SEPTEMBER 30, 2022, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

                               __________

              Department of Housing and Urban Development
                      Department of Transportation

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations
         
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]         


           Available via the World Wide Web: www.govinfo.gov

                               __________
                               
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
44-193 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                               
                              
                      COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                  PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman

PATTY MURRAY, Washington             RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama, Vice 
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California             Chairman
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky
JACK REED, Rhode Island              SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
JON TESTER, Montana                  LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire        LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 ROY BLUNT, Missouri
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JERRY MORAN, Kansas
BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii                 JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut      SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
JOE MANCHIN, West Virginia               Virginia
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
                                     MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
                                     BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
                                     MARCO RUBIO, Florida

                   Charles E. Kieffer, Staff Director
           Shannon Hutcherson Hines, Minority Staff Director

                                 ------                                

  Subcommittee on Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and 
                            Related Agencies

                     BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii, Chairman
JACK REED, Rhode Island              SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Ranking
PATTY MURRAY, Washington             RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama, (ex 
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois              officio)
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California         ROY BLUNT, Missouri
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut      SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
JOE MANCHIN, West Virginia               Virginia
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland           LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
                                     JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
                                     JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
                                     MIKE BRAUN, Indiana

                           Professional Staff

                              Dabney Hegg
                               Jessi Axe
                            Elisabeth Coats
                              Rajat Mathur
                              Jessica Sun
                        Alison Grabb (Minority)
                      Michael Ciamarra (Minority)
                       Jason Woolwine (Minority)
                       Courtney Young (Minority)

                         Administrative Support

                             Fiona O'Brien
                       LaShawnda Smith (Minority)
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                                HEARINGS
                        Thursday, June 10, 2021

                                                                   Page

Department of Housing and Urban Development......................     1

                        Wednesday, June 16, 2021

Department of Transportation.....................................    47

 
  TRANSPORTATION, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES 
                  APPROPRIATIONS FOR FISCAL YEAR 2022

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
           Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, at 9:33 a.m. in room SD-192, Dirksen 
Senate Office Building, Hon. Brian Schatz (chairman) presiding.
    Present: Senators Schatz, Murray, Manchin, Van Hollen, 
Collins, Boozman, Hoeven, and Braun.

              DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

STATEMENT OF HON. MARCIA FUDGE, SECRETARY


               opening statement of senator brian schatz


    Senator Schatz. This hearing will come to order.
    Secretary Fudge, it is a true pleasure to have you before 
the subcommittee to testify on the President's Budget Request 
for fiscal year 2022. I know this will be one of many 
opportunities for us to work together on HUD's needs, and the 
investments necessary to support HUD's mission. To that end, I 
hope we will be able to quickly come to a budget agreement to 
mark up this July.
    I am honored to continue the legacy that my friend Senator 
Collins has established for the subcommittee as a voice of 
unwavering support for the prevention of homelessness, the 
preservation of affordable housing, and the advancement of 
economic development for disadvantaged communities. Each of 
these pillars of housing policy is also reflected in the 
President's budget request for $68.7 billion.
    This is an honest and clean request that avoids previous 
gimmicks to eliminate popular programs like CDBG and HOME as a 
budgetary offset because, frankly, these are hugely popular 
programs that create real change in communities that have 
experienced the toughest of times.
    While the total request is an increase of $9 billion, $3.7 
billion of that is needed to preserve the existing affordable 
housing portfolio. This is the highest 1 year increase to 
renewal needs ever. Market-rate rents continue to rise and the 
impact of COVID on jobs continue to wreak havoc on tenant 
income. This is an important reminder of why we need the 
American Jobs Plan. We need to get people back to work, and 
housing needs to be part of those priorities.
    Where we live impacts every aspect of our lives. Decades of 
discriminatory housing policies have segregated neighborhoods, 
creating economic inequality for minority communities, these 
very--those very communities bear the burden of substandard 
housing and environmental pollution, and the American Jobs 
Plan, and this budget proposal acknowledge these injustices and 
put forward solutions to drive the change we need.
    While the Eviction Moratorium and Emergency Rental 
Assistance have helped to stem the potential for a tidal wave 
of evictions during the pandemic, we are not out of the woods. 
The reality of limited affordable housing stock, skyrocketing 
rents, and low wages, are causing people to be pushed into 
homelessness at alarming rates. Tent cities are proliferating 
across the country in high-cost urban areas, and we clearly 
need a united approach to reverse this trend.
    We need to incentivize new affordable housing units through 
a combination of tax policy, flexible financing, and the HOME 
program. We also need to streamline the Housing Trust Fund to 
reduce development costs, to make housing production more 
efficient. I support your proposal and using incentives to 
eliminate exclusionary zoning. These types of carrots make 
communities aware of how their own policies create unnecessary 
local barriers to production.
    To support these goals, HUD needs to address its own 
internal capacity. Over the last decade HUD's staffing levels 
have fallen by 20 percent. The budget requests and increase of 
$182 million for additional staffing, the previous 
administration shared this goal and requested $121 million 
increase despite $10 billion in cuts to HUD programs; so I 
think we can all agree, regardless of the administration, there 
was a clear need and bipartisan support for additional 
staffing.
    Secretary Fudge, I look forward to an ongoing dialogue on 
this matter to improve the oversight and management of HUD 
programs.
    And, Senator Collins, I turn to you for your opening 
statement.


                 statement of senator susan m. collins


    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am very pleased to 
join Chairman Schatz in welcoming Secretary Fudge to her very 
first hearing before this subcommittee to discuss the 
Department of Housing and Urban Development's fiscal year 2022 
Budget Request.
    As part of the fiscal year 2021 Omnibus, we provided $60.4 
billion for HUD, and that includes $695 million in emergency 
spending. These funds provide rental assistance for seniors and 
low-income families. They help provide safe and secure housing 
for formerly homeless veterans and youth, they support critical 
investments in communities through the Community Development 
Block Grant and home programs, and they fund efforts to reduce 
lead paint hazards for children and pregnant women, and enable 
low-income seniors to remain in their own homes.
    This funding was also supplemented by $12.4 billion 
provided through the CARES Act last year in response to the 
COVID epidemic. As we begin our work on the budget for the next 
fiscal year, it is important to know that unlike previous 
years, there is not yet a budget agreement in place. Top line 
funding levels remain to be determined. The administration's 
request for HUD, excluding FHA and Ginnie Mae recedes, is $68.7 
billion, a substantial increase of $9 billion above current 
levels.
    But those numbers tell only part of the story. This 
increased funding request is on top of not just the 12.4 
billion provided in the CARES Act and the 10 billion provided 
in the American Rescue Plan in March, but also the $170 billion 
for HUD proposed in the administration's American Jobs Plan.
    The supplemental funding from the CARES Act and the ARP 
combined with the proposed AJ, American Jobs Plan, and Fiscal 
2022 budget increases would--totaled nearly $180 billion in 
additional funding for HUD, that amounts to three times HUD's 
fiscal year 2021 funding level.
    Accounting for the baseline appropriations, the 
administration is proposing to provide HUD with the equivalent 
of 5 years of funding in a two-year period. I am concerned that 
HUD, and many of its grantees, lack the capacity to manage and 
oversee such an influx of funding, regardless of how well-
intentioned those proposals may be.
    As the chairman has mentioned, this is not a situation the 
secretary has created, HUD has been understaffed for some time 
now, but the problem is exacerbated by this huge influx of 
proposed funding. More than a year after the CARES Act provided 
$9 billion for the flexible CDBG and Homeless Assistance Grants 
programs, HUD has actually spent less than $1 billion, or less 
than 11 percent of those two programs.
    That other Federal funding was also provided in many cases 
to the exact same grantees, only underscores the challenges 
that these organizations and HUD would face managing even 
larger mounts.
    Now, let me be clear. The lack of affordable housing is a 
crisis in many parts of the country with no state having an 
adequate supply. And that includes the State of Maine. The very 
people who make our communities thrive, firefighters, police 
officers, teachers, nurses, often find that they can no longer 
afford to live in the communities they serve.
    The solutions to such challenges take careful thought and 
coordination. Providing HUD the equivalent of 5 years of 
funding over 2 year period is not, however, the answer. Where 
funding increases are appropriate, they should be in areas that 
will yield results quickly. When such results are not possible, 
the Department should invest time, instead, in finding ways to 
expedite the administration and allocation of grants, and 
improve its programs by streamlining regulations and working to 
reauthorize the many expired programs.
    Most of the HUD's programs are operating with long expired 
authorizations. Again, not the secretary's fault, but something 
she has inherited. These expirations do not prevent this 
committee from funding programs, however, without 
reauthorizations the programs are often not as effective as 
they could be. According to the CBO, the CDBG Home and Lead 
Paint Hazard Reduction Authorizations expired way back in 1994, 
public housing, Section 8 vouchers, housing for the elderly in 
2003, and Homeless Assistance Grants authorization expired in 
2011.
    The Department is missing the opportunity for 
transformational change to better serve our communities, 
seniors, youth, the homeless, veterans, and individuals with 
disabilities. With a budget request as sizable as this one, it 
is particularly disappointing to see no dedicated funding for 
the HUD-VASH program. That is inexplicable given the success of 
this program. VASH has been critical to reducing veteran's 
homelessness by 50 percent since 2010, while homeless veterans 
could be eligible under the administration's newly-proposed 
incremental vouchers program, this proposal fails to take into 
account the VASH program's partnership with the VA, which 
provides veterans with case management and supportive services.
    That partnership between HUD and the VA has been critical 
to the success of the VASH program. And I just don't understand 
why the administration would want to eliminate that partnership 
and undermine the effectiveness of VASH.
    While there were a number of concerns with the budget 
requests, I do want to acknowledge a number of areas of shared 
interests. First, is the CDBG program; like the chairman, it is 
refreshing that this year, the program has not been eliminated 
knowing that we would restore the funding, but forcing us to 
search for the funds. It is a critical program that provides 
flexible funding for water and sewer improvements, public 
services for seniors, revitalization of distressed downtowns, 
and countless other worthwhile projects that serve low- and 
moderate-income communities.
    I think it is probably the program I hear the most 
favorable comments about among all the HUD programs, both from 
my colleagues and from folks back home. For every dollar 
invested in CDBG, it leverages another six--another $3.64 in 
funds from state, local and private sources. This is an 
essential resource that lies at the heart of HUD's community 
development mission. And it has really benefited communities 
across Maine.
    In addition to CDBG, I am pleased to see the request 
continues robust investments in reducing the health hazards of 
exposure to lead paint, particularly for young children, the 
request also includes funding for aging-in-place home 
modification grants, and the Youth Homeless Demonstration 
Program that I have worked to establish in previous years.
    Finally, I am pleased to see that the request this year 
includes sufficient funding for renewing existing rental 
assistance.
    Madam Secretary, once again, I welcome you to today's 
hearing, and look forward to your testimony.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Senator Collins.
    Secretary Fudge, please proceed with your testimony.


                 summary statement of hon. marcia fudge


    Secretary Fudge. Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman. And 
Madam Ranking Member, it is a pleasure to be here with you 
today.
    Chairman Schatz, and Ranking Member Collins, and 
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for this 
opportunity to discuss the President's 2022 Budget for the 
Department of Housing and Urban Development.
    President Biden has often shared the words of wisdom which 
he learned from his father. Those words are, ``Don't tell me 
what you value. Show me your budget, and I will tell you what 
you value.''
    Well, the Biden-Harris administration has issued a budget 
that sends a strong message about what we value. It tells the 
American people this administration views housing as a 
foundational platform to help address the most urgent 
challenges facing our Nation, to provide security and stability 
for those who live on the outskirts of hope, to advance 
opportunity and equity on behalf of marginalized communities 
and to meet the existential threats posed by natural disasters 
and climate change.
    The President's budget requests $68.7 billion for HUD in 
fiscal year 2022. This amount represents an increase of $9 
billion or 15 percent from HUD's enacted funding for fiscal 
year 2021. The American people need every dollar contained in 
this budget. We all know the United States confronts a crisis 
in affordable housing, even before the onset of COVID-19 nearly 
11 million households spent more than 50 percent of their 
incomes on rent. The pandemic has only made that situation 
worse, especially for communities of color, and for people of 
modest means.
    The President's budget addresses the affordable housing 
crisis head on, and dramatically strengthens our social safety 
net for the most vulnerable among us. It contains $3.5 billion 
to provide housing and supportive services to Americans 
experiencing homelessness, including young people and survivors 
of domestic violence. It contains $30.4 billion request for 
HUD's housing choice voucher program; if enacted this funding 
would provide, potentially, life-saving assistance for an 
additional 200,000 households.
    The President's budget takes strong steps to expand our 
supply of affordable housing. This includes $1.9 billion for 
the Home Investment Partnership Program, which helps create 
affordable rental homes for low-income Americans. On top of 
this investment, the President's budget requests funding to 
build 2,000 new homes for seniors, and for people with 
disabilities.
    In addition, the President's budget takes bold action to 
help preserve the affordable housing we already have. Nearly 
half of our public housing is more than 50 years old, and many 
properties face major capital needs. This is not just a safety 
issue for the residents of public housing, it is an issue of 
both racial justice and climate justice.
    People of color represent roughly 70 percent of Americans 
who live in public housing, and public housing is often located 
in underserved communities that are especially vulnerable to 
the effects of climate change. That is why the President's 
budget invests $3.2 billion toward public housing capital funds 
to dramatically improve the quality of life for residents.
    Furthermore, it contains $300 million to help increase 
energy efficiency, reduce carbon pollution and boost resilience 
in public housing. The President's budget further advances 
equity by making significant investments in traditionally 
marginalized communities all across the country. It requests 
$3.8 billion in community development block grants, including 
$295 million in targeted funding for historically underserved 
areas in cities, small towns, and rural counties.
    It requests $723 million in Indian Housing Block Grants to 
help create affordable housing, improve water conservation and 
build climate-resilient infrastructure on tribal lands. Taken 
together, the investments in this budget underscore the 
President's belief that every American has the basic right to 
live each day with security and with dignity. Throughout the 
COVID-19 crisis, we have all been reminded of the fundamental 
role our homes play in how we live, how we learn, and how we 
work.
    Our homes shape everything, from our health and safety to 
our hopes, and sense of self. HUD looks forward to working with 
each of you to help make housing for all a reality in America, 
and to serve as a responsible steward for the funding entrusted 
to our Department.
    With that, I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
    [The statement follows:]
               Prepared Statement of Hon. Marcia L. Fudge
    Chairman Schatz, Ranking Member Collins, and distinguished Members 
of the Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today in 
support of President Biden's 2022 Budget for the Department of Housing 
and Urban Development (HUD). The support of this Subcommittee is 
critical to ensuring that every American has a roof over their head and 
can live in communities that are strong and resilient.
    HUD's mission is critical to achieving the President's vision to 
ensure that we build back better from the COVID-19 pandemic public 
health and economic challenges and address longstanding systemic 
challenges, including racial injustice, rising inequality, and the 
climate crisis. This Budget makes historic investments that will help 
our Nation build back better and lay the foundation for shared growth 
and prosperity for decades to come. Our request greatly expands 
assistance to low-income families currently served by HUD programs, 
increases assistance to targeted vulnerable populations--including 
persons experiencing homelessness and Native Americans--and revitalizes 
neighborhoods with distressed HUD-assisted housing and concentrated 
poverty. HUD's work is critical to the Administration's efforts to 
improve the quality of life of the American people.
                           covid-19 pandemic
    The past year of COVID-19 has been one of enormous challenges and 
difficulties. In the face of adversity and hardship, HUD staff in every 
region of the country continued to carry out the vital work of meeting 
the diverse needs of America's communities. HUD staff worked tirelessly 
to assist grantees and recipients of HUD assistance in their responses 
to the pandemic. While our nation is starting to turn the corner on 
COVID-19, we still have important work to do. In the months ahead, HUD 
will continue to play a critical role in the Administration's 
coordinated Federal response to the pandemic--a response focused on 
protecting the health and well-being of the American people.
    At HUD, we know firsthand the severe impact of COVID-19 on our 
nation's housing crisis. We have helped housing owners, housing 
authorities, and communities provide additional rental assistance and 
support new efforts to eradicate homelessness. In coordination with the 
Departments of Veterans Affairs and Agriculture, we also extended the 
Federal Housing Administration's foreclosure and eviction moratorium 
and forbearance enrollment window until June 30th, and provided up to 
an additional 6 months of forbearance for certain borrowers, to support 
the immediate and ongoing needs of distressed homeowners. We are 
strengthening partnerships between recipients of HUD assistance and 
public health agencies and healthcare providers. This means 
strengthening our efforts to ensure equitable access to treatment and 
care, including testing and vaccines, for HUD assisted households.
    Many of the people living in federally-assisted housing have risk 
factors that make them particularly vulnerable to COVID. These factors 
include disability, race, and low incomes, along with racial and ethnic 
disparities in access to response, care, and treatment.
    We are making sure that Federal, state, and local efforts reach 
those most at-risk of COVID and we are linking those efforts to people 
living in housing that HUD supports. The American Rescue Plan is 
critical to our success in these efforts. Some of you may know that my 
last vote as a Member of Congress was for the American Rescue Plan. I 
was proud to vote for this historic legislation to get help to the 
American people during this moment of great challenge.
    To meet this moment, we need to invest in our communities and our 
people. I believe that a budget is more than just a list of numbers; it 
reflects values and priorities. The 2022 President's Budget 
demonstrates the Administration's commitment to helping low-income 
families, seniors, and communities through the commitment of their 
Federal government. For too long, housing needs have not been 
recognized as a national priority, resulting in a severe shortage of 
affordable housing and too many Americans unable to find a safe place 
to call home. This Budget begins to reverse that trend, investing in 
our housing infrastructure to meet urgent demand. I am proud to support 
President Biden's 2022 Budget and I look forward to working with you to 
meet urgent housing needs in all our communities.
                     president biden's 2022 budget
    The 2022 President's Budget requests $68.7 billion for HUD, 
approximately $9.0 billion more than the enacted level for 2021. In 
addition to this discretionary request, the Budget also includes the 
American Jobs Plan and the American Families Plan. The Budget outlines 
an ambitious agenda to address challenges our Nation faces, ranging 
from climate change to housing discrimination to ending homelessness. 
This funding further builds on the substantial resources provided in 
the American Rescue Plan (ARP). The priorities in the Budget include:

  --$30.4 billion for the Housing Choice Voucher Program, which 
        accommodates 200,000 new vouchers, prioritizing those fleeing 
        from domestic violence and households experiencing 
        homelessness;

  --$3.5 billion to provide housing and services to individuals and 
        families experiencing homelessness, including a focus on 
        survivors of domestic violence and youth experiencing 
        homelessness;

  --$400 million to remove dangerous health hazards from homes, 
        including lead, carbon monoxide, and radon;

  --$800 million in targeted climate resilience and energy efficiency 
        improvements in public, tribal, and other assisted housing;

  --$85 million for Fair Housing programs, and increased HUD staff 
        capacity to redress discriminatory housing practices; and

  --$2 billion for Management and Administration expenses, or about 3 
        percent of the proposed Budget, investing in critical staffing 
        and information technology needs to strengthen HUD's capacity 
        to deliver on its mission.

    In summary, HUD's proposed Budget allocates budget authority across 
programs and for staffing and other management and administrative 
expenses. Most of the budget authority funds programs to help 
vulnerable, low-income households--many elderly or disabled--pay their 
rent. The Office of Public and Indian Housing (PIH), the Office of 
Housing, and the Office of Community Planning and Development (CPD) 
administer these programs.
    This request dovetails with funds provided by the CARES Act of 2020 
and the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, which appropriated $12.4 
billion and $10.8 billion, respectively, across multiple HUD programs 
for urgently needed housing and services due to the COVID-19 pandemic. 
The 2022 President's Budget extends this comprehensive approach to 
address these challenges and invigorates the Nation's response through 
targeted funding increases and policy interventions, strengthening the 
Federal housing safety net, advancing equity, increasing access to 
affordable housing, addressing the climate crisis, and building HUD's 
capacity overall.
    At HUD, we understand that our homes represent more than four walls 
and a roof. A good home can serve as a platform to spark economic 
opportunity and create healthier, more sustainable, and more inclusive 
communities. To further HUD's mission through this Budget, I have 
outlined five priorities:

  --Strengthen and Broaden the Federal Housing Safety Net for People in 
        Need

  --Advance Housing Equity as a Means to Improving Housing Choices and 
        Greater Economic Opportunity

  --Increase the Production of and Access to Affordable Housing

  --Promote Climate Resilience, Environmental Justice, and Energy 
        Efficiency Across the Housing Sector

  --Strengthen HUD's Internal Capacity to Deliver on Mission
  strengthen and broaden the federal housing safety net for people in 
                                  need
    One of HUD's core functions is to provide a safety net for 
households when they need it, and help people access a safe and stable 
place to live. This function has become increasingly important as 
growth in rents continues to outpace incomes. From 2001 to 2018, rent 
costs increased nearly 14 percent while renter incomes grew just 1.4 
percent.\1\ The Budget provides the opportunity to expand the number of 
people that can rely on HUD's programs, and once people have stable 
housing, they can better focus on their families, jobs, health, and 
other aspects of life. Key features of the Budget include:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ America's Rental Housing 2020 Report, Joint Center for Housing 
Studies, Harvard University (https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/
default/files/reports/files/Harvard_JCHS_Americas_
Rental_Housing_2020.pdf).

  --The Budget provides necessary renewal and operating funding for 
        multiple HUD programs, including two of HUD's largest programs 
        providing this safety net--Tenant- Based Rental Assistance 
        (TBRA) and Project-Based Rental Assistance (PBRA)--as well as 
        for Housing for the Elderly (Section 202), Housing for Persons 
        with Disabilities (Section 811), and the operating subsidy 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        formula in the Public Housing Fund.

  --The TBRA request will allow HUD to issue vouchers to 200,000 more 
        households that currently qualify for rental assistance. These 
        new vouchers, the largest 1 year increase since the program was 
        authorized, will increase affordable housing, and provide 
        greater access to areas of opportunity for very low-income 
        families and individuals that are experiencing or at risk of 
        homelessness. This includes individuals and families fleeing, 
        or attempting to flee domestic violence, dating violence, 
        sexual assault, or stalking. The Administration looks forward 
        to working with the Congress to build on this investment and 
        achieve its long-term goal of providing housing vouchers to all 
        eligible households, while increasing the program's impact on 
        equity and poverty alleviation.

  --An increase of 14 percent for public housing capital funds (under 
        the Public Housing Fund), for a total of $3.2 billion, which 
        will be critical to improving the quality of public housing.

  --An increase of $500 million for HUD's Homeless Assistance Grants, 
        to provide housing and services for vulnerable individuals and 
        families who are homeless or at risk of homelessness. This 
        increase will provide capacity and support to communities as 
        they work to coordinate an effective homeless response system 
        in a housing first approach and equitable way. HUD will build 
        on the many lessons learned from its effort to keep people 
        experiencing homelessness safe in response to the threat of the 
        COVID-19, while encouraging partnering between other Federal 
        and local programs.
  advance housing equity as a means to improving housing choices and 
                      greater economic opportunity
    Every family should be able to have a safe place to call home. 
However, discriminatory practices have led to longstanding inequities 
in access to housing. The Budget makes investments in key areas to 
bring an end to discrimination in housing and eliminate patterns of 
racial and ethnic segregation and economic disparities in communities, 
while proactively advancing equity for historically underserved 
communities. Key initiatives include:

  --Fair Housing Programs: $85 million, a $12.5 million or 17.2 percent 
        increase over 2021, for targeted and coordinated enforcement, 
        education, and outreach.

  --Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) Program: $3.8 billion, a 
        $295 million increase specifically to incentivize communities 
        to direct funds to historically underserved communities and 
        neighborhoods.

  --Indian Housing Block Grant (IHBG) Program: $723 million, a $76 
        million or 11.7 percent increase over 2021, for grants to 
        finance affordable housing construction and related community 
        development. As funding for IHBG has remained level for many 
        years, Indian Tribes have had to rely on other programs to fund 
        the production and preservation of affordable housing, 
        reserving IHBG for operations and maintenance of existing 
        housing. This increase will help Tribes change this balance.

  --Mobility Services initiative under TBRA (new): $491 million to fund 
        cost-effective housing mobility strategies to assist families 
        with children to move from areas of extreme poverty to areas of 
        higher opportunity. The funding will also address impediments 
        to public housing agency collaboration, with a goal of 
        reversing the effects of residential segregation adversely 
        impacting people of color.

  --Eviction Prevention Demonstration program: The 2022 Budget will 
        continue to fund HUD's Office of Policy Development and 
        Research's execution of the $20 million competitive grant 
        program that provides free legal assistance to eligible low-
        income tenants at risk of or subject to eviction.
      increase the production of and access to affordable housing
    Increasing the availability of affordable housing is essential to 
the resilience of households and communities. The Budget proposes 
several key tools to further this goal.
    The HOME Investment Partnerships (HOME) Program has long served as 
an anchor of the Nation's affordable housing finance system. The 2022 
President's Budget will make a significant impact, providing $1.9 
billion--$500 million and 37 percent more than the 2021 enacted level. 
The Budget includes a $100 million set-aside for a new initiative, the 
FirstHOME Down Payment Assistance initiative, which provides funding to 
States and insular areas to better support sustainable homeownership.
    The Housing for the Elderly (Section 202) Program proposes $100 
million for new Capital Advances to increase the supply of affordable 
housing for seniors by approximately 1,100 units. The Housing for 
Persons with Disabilities (Section 811) Program proposes $80 million, 
which will support 900 new units to expand the supply of affordable 
housing for very low- and extremely low-income persons with 
disabilities to live independently in the community with connections to 
critical supportive services. Combined, these programs provide a total 
of $180 million to support a total of 2,000 new units for vulnerable 
populations.
    Ginnie Mae Securitization of Risk-Sharing Loans: The Budget 
proposes Ginnie Mae authority to securitize affordable multifamily 
loans made by Housing Finance Agencies (HFAs) and insured under the 
Federal Housing Administration's (FHA) 542(c) Risk-Sharing program. As 
an interim measure that will sunset 3 years after implementation, HUD 
is resuming its partnership with Treasury's Federal Financing Bank 
(FFB) to provide ``Ginnie-like'' financing for HFA Risk- Sharing loans. 
The proposed Ginnie Mae securitization authority would provide a 
permanent source of low-cost capital for these affordable housing loans 
once FFB financing expires.
    Finally, the Budget proposes $30 million for two other 
homeownership resources through FHA to:

  --Expand the Good Neighbor Next Door (GNND) Program, which offers a 
        substantial discount to law enforcement officers, teachers, 
        firefighters, and emergency medical technicians to encourage 
        them to purchase and reside in homes in distressed communities; 
        and

  --Create a Home Equity Accelerator Loan (HEAL) Pilot that would test 
        new loan products designed to lower barriers to homeownership 
        for first-generation and/or low-wealth first-time homebuyers.
     promote climate resilience, environmental justice, and energy 
                  efficiency across the housing sector
    In response to the President's Executive Order 14008 (``Tackling 
the Climate Crisis at Home and Abroad''), HUD's Budget includes $800 
million to reduce carbon pollution, increase resilience to the impact 
of climate change, and address environmental justice. Communities 
served by HUD programs, which often have a significant share of low- 
and moderate-income households and people of color, are often more 
vulnerable to climate change due to their locations, aging 
infrastructure, and historic disinvestment. As part of the 
Administration's whole-of-government approach to the climate crisis, 
the Department is committed to expanding energy-efficient and climate-
resilient housing options in public and assisted housing. The following 
investments proposed in the Budget are crucial to assist communities 
throughout the country to mitigate and prepare for the worst effects of 
climate change:

  --Public Housing Fund: $300 million to increase energy efficiency, 
        reduce water consumption, and promote climate resilience in 
        public housing.

  --Native American Programs: $100 million to eligible Indian Tribes 
        and Tribally Designated Housing Entities (TDHEs) to increase 
        energy efficiency, improve water conservation, and further 
        climate resilience. Preliminary estimates indicate this funding 
        would allow HUD to retrofit approximately 16,600 housing units.

  --Choice Neighborhoods: $50 million to further support energy-
        efficient housing construction and environmentally sensitive 
        and resilient design of community improvement projects.

  --Green and Resilient Retrofit Program (new): $250 million to 
        rehabilitate Multifamily- assisted properties to be more 
        energy-efficient, healthier, and more resilient to extreme 
        weather events. This increased investment will improve the 
        stock of affordable housing available to many low- and 
        extremely low-income families, often from marginalized 
        communities.

  --Rental Assistance Demonstration Program: $100 million under the 
        TBRA and PBRA programs for public housing authorities (PHAs) to 
        transition public housing units to the Section 8 platform. This 
        program preserves and improves public housing properties and 
        will enable public housing authorities to holistically address 
        critical property needs, environmental hazards, energy 
        inefficiencies, and increase housing choice for residents.

    In addition, the Budget requests $85 million for the Healthy Homes 
component in the Office of Lead Hazard Control and Healthy Homes, an 
increase of $25 million or 41.7 percent over 2021 enacted. These funds 
will help grantees identify and mitigate multiple health hazards in 
low- income households.
    Finally, the Budget requests $145 million for Policy Development 
and Research of which $5 million is for research on housing, climate 
adaptation, and resilience conducted in coordination with the new 
Advanced Research Projects Agency for Climate (ARPA-C) at the 
Department of Energy. The ARPA model of high-risk, accelerated research 
is uniquely designed for research and development that, if successful, 
will result in transformational technology advancements.
    Together, these investments will decrease the financial burden on 
tenants, help to address inequities, reduce carbon emissions, and 
increase the climate resilience of HUD's housing stock while improving 
indoor air quality and creating healthier and safer homes for families.
        strengthen hud's internal capacity to deliver on mission
    HUD's Enterprise Risk Management program has identified staffing as 
one of the top risks to the Department. In fact, in the 2021 Risk 
Profile, all program offices identified risk related to the quality of 
their business functions resulting from a lack of expert staff in 
procurement, information technology, and human resources areas.
    From 2012 to 2019, the number of full-time equivalent (FTE) 
employees at HUD declined 20 percent, from 8,576 to 6,837. Although a 
focus on the hiring process and the salaries and expenses (S&E) budget 
have enabled HUD to regain some of the ground lost, attrition has 
resulted in imbalanced program offices and the loss of expert staff to 
effectively administer some programs. For example, HUD's review of 
enterprise risks found that due to the decline, HUD lost staff in 
critical disaster mitigation posts, the institutional memory within its 
environmental programming, and specialized skills necessary to 
administer contracts critical to the functioning of the agency. In 
addition, inadequate staffing due to numerous retirements threatens 
HUD's vital cybersecurity capabilities. Overall, these enterprise 
issues and risks weaken HUD's ability to deliver strong, sustainable, 
inclusive communities and quality affordable housing.
    The 2022 Budget requests $1.7 billion for S&E, $189 million more 
than the 2021 enacted level, which, in combination with expected 
carryover of 2021 funding, will support 8,186 FTEs.\2\ The 2022 Budget 
will support the gains made in 2020 and projected for 2021 and provide 
for continued increases in staffing, which will enable the Department 
to serve households and communities better and more efficiently across 
the country.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Including Ginnie Mae; excluding Office of Inspector General.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Budget also proposes $323 million for the IT Fund, to continue 
the modernization of HUD's IT systems and cybersecurity. These 
investments in IT and staffing will help ensure that HUD has the 
resources and capacity to rise to meet the critical work ahead.
    HUD's mission is to create strong, sustainable, inclusive 
communities and quality affordable homes for all. HUD is actively 
strengthening the housing market to bolster the economy and protect 
consumers. We are helping meet the need for quality affordable rental 
homes through our programs. We work to improve our citizens' quality of 
life through housing as a platform. And we are building inclusive and 
sustainable communities free from discrimination, while transforming 
the way HUD does business. The Budget delivers on these promises, and I 
am pleased to share this request with the Subcommittee.
    Under the President's leadership, America is getting back on track. 
We are turning the corner on the pandemic. Our economy is growing and 
creating jobs. Students are getting back into classrooms. For the fifth 
month in a row, unemployment claims have dropped precipitously as we 
have gotten Americans vaccinated. For all the progress we have already 
made, we cannot simply return to the way things were before the 
pandemic and economic downturn. We must seize this moment to reimagine 
and rebuild a new American economy that invests in the promise and 
potential of every American and makes it easier for families to break 
into and stay in the middle class. We must build back better.
    Chairman Schatz, Ranking Member Collins, and distinguished Members 
of the Subcommittee, I look forward to working with you. Thank you for 
the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss my priorities for 
the Department and how the President's 2022 Budget will serve our most 
vulnerable citizens, increase the resilience of our communities, and 
Build Back Better.

    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much, Secretary Fudge. Let 
me start with this, there are--according to the last Point-in-
Time count, there are 37,000 veterans experiencing 
homelessness, but we have got 24,000 (HUD-Veterans Affairs 
Supportive Housing) HUD-VASH vouchers that remain unleased. 
What strategies are you and Secretary McDonough looking at to 
solve this problem, given that we have resources and we can't 
match them with the people that need them the most?
    Secretary Fudge. First, Mr. Chairman, let me thank you all 
for making sure that those resources are available. I know that 
some budgets in the past have not made the kind of requests 
that you all have stepped in and done what was right for 
veterans and the American people in general.
    Part of the problem we are finding with VASH and we are, on 
a regular basis, talking, our staffs, as well as I have talked 
with Secretary McDonough. We have two major problems in this 
program. One being that we get referrals from case managers, VA 
does not have enough case managers. So some they get bogged 
down in that process, but the biggest issue is housing. It is 
just not available in the numbers that we needed.
    And so affordable housing is not available really to the 
degree that veterans need these resources. And so we have to 
find ways to either change things, like how much we allow 
vouchers to really be effective, we need to look at our price 
points, because we know in communities like yours, Mr. 
Chairman, that it is almost impossible to find the kind of 
housing that will take vouchers, from anyone, not just 
veterans, but especially from people in need.
    And so we have a lot of work to do and we know it, but we 
also know that that is why the President has requested the 
kinds of dollars that he has to expand housing, affordable 
housing.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much. And let us be in touch 
about this because, yes, it is a resource question, but it is 
also an execution problem between local governments and two 
Federal executive agencies.
    Secretary Fudge. I agree.
    Senator Schatz. I want to talk to you just a little bit 
about empowering local communities to tackle discriminatory 
zoning. And I know you have been a leader on this, a thought 
leader on this, and just wondering what mechanisms HUD is in 
possession of and what we could do to help to try to solve the 
problem.
    Look, we have got to appropriate money to affordable 
housing, but the truth is, lots of local governments are 
actually creating housing shortages and then lamenting housing 
shortages. And so I am wondering what you think you can do as 
the secretary to try to precipitate change at the local level?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, one thing that the American Jobs 
Plan does, Mr. Chairman, is it allocates resources to start to 
have the discussions with local governments about how their 
zoning is creating an impediment to affordable and low-income 
housing. Because I think sometimes they don't realize that if 
in their zoning they require that a lot size has to be a 
certain particular size, or they decide that you have to have 
so many parking spaces, or there has to be so much space for a 
driveway, when they start to think about the cost, I think they 
sometimes don't understand the impediment, partially.
    I think the other thing is that these resources are going 
to allow them to do the kind of research and discussion in 
their own communities to determine what is best for them. And I 
think you will find that, and I know, myself having been a 
former mayor, when you start to talk to your residents, and you 
start to talk to other people in your community, they come back 
with a different view, because a lot of these laws have been in 
place for so long, nobody has even thought about them. And so 
we need to take the discrimination out of it, but we also need 
to just say: It is a new day and we have to think about these 
things differently.
    Senator Schatz. Final question, what are your next steps to 
ensure that tribes are eligible for homeless assistance grants?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, I think we have already actually 
started doing that. Let me see. Here we go. Well, let me just 
say that, I know that we, right now, have already started to 
make tribes available for the program. So we are right now 
planning to allow tribes and tribal organizations to apply for 
Continuum of Care. We have been having ongoing conversations 
with them. I have had calls with tribal leaders on more than 
one occasion. Their input is not where we need it to be, and so 
we are in the process and expect to announce it later this 
summer that the eligibility will be there because the 
requirements will be changed to allow it.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much.
    Senator Collins.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Fudge, I want to follow up on the chairman's 
first question about the VASH program, which I mentioned in my 
opening statement. You mentioned that there is some lack of 
caseworkers, and also a lack of affordable housing, but we have 
found that there are other challenges in connecting eligible 
veterans through the program, through the current referral 
system, and the 2020 Point-in-Time count found that there are 
still more than 37,000 homeless veterans. And we like to say: 
That in the land of the free, there should always be a home for 
the brave. And I feel very strongly about this program, and I 
have seen the difference it has made in the lives of veterans 
who were homeless in the State of Maine.
    So in response to the difficulties that HUD was 
experiencing in connecting veterans with vouchers, in last 
year's appropriation bill, we directed HUD to use its waiver 
authority to streamline the intake process, including by 
enabling public housing authorities to issue vouchers to 
eligible veterans in advance of a referral from the FAA. What 
has HUD done, or are you aware of what HUD has done to 
implement the directives from last year's Appropriations Act?
    Secretary Fudge. I would say to you, Senator, that VA 
actually is taking the lead on some of these programs. And so 
what they are doing now is talking about some of the things--
same things we are, quite frankly, is their capacity, because 
VA has the same kinds of issues we do as it relates to 
staffing, and to skills gaps, quite frankly. And, you know, we 
have already been, advised that we have a major skills gap as 
does VA.
    And so some of it clearly is a result of what is happening 
within the agencies, but I would suggest to you, Senator, that 
even though there is a problem within our house, that being VA 
and HUD, the need is still there and the need is still great. 
We are trying to figure it out. Secretary McDonough and I, and 
our staffs are working to try to move it as quickly as 
possible. But I think what has happened over the last number of 
years, eight or 10 years probably, is that we have never really 
looked at how the system should work best, and we have never 
really applied the best practices that we should have. And that 
is just an honest assessment of what I see. But we are working 
on it.
    Senator Collins. I want to bring to your attention a HUD 
success story. And it is in Lewiston, Maine. The Choice 
Neighborhoods Initiative, which is intended to help cities 
leverage public and private funds, to revitalize neighborhoods 
that are severely distressed, and have housing problems, and 
vacant property, a lack of employment opportunity. The City of 
Lewiston, Maine, was recently awarded a $30 million grant to 
revitalize what we referred to as the ``Tree Street 
Neighborhood''.
    And it would replace 185--or result in building 185 new 
units of affordable housing, rehabilitating nearly 1,500 units 
that are lead-contaminated, and it will result in $100 million 
private investment in the city.
    Lewiston was the smallest city to receive an implementation 
grant. And that really underscores the hard work that all of 
the partners, and stakeholders who came together, put into the 
plan. First, I want to invite you to come, at some point, to 
Lewiston, and see the wonderful work that is being done. And 
also, I want to point out a broader point, and that is that HUD 
needs to be more focused on smaller cities and communities. It 
cannot just focus on large urban areas. And oftentimes these 
smaller communities are at a real disadvantage because they 
don't have full-time grant writers. They don't have the staff.
    And that is why technical assistance, presentations from 
HUD, and HUD working with these smaller communities is so 
important. And HUD has done that with Lewiston. And I just want 
to thank you for that effort. Invite you to see the exciting 
project, but also encourage further efforts to help smaller 
communities take advantage of the programs at HUD.
    Secretary Fudge. Thank you. If I may, Mr. Chairman? I had 
the opportunity to speak with the Mayor of Lewiston and 
congratulate him on the hard work and the award, and I 
understand very clearly what you are saying. I was the mayor of 
a small city. I understand when you are not a city that gets 
your own direct CDBG money, or when you don't--when you have to 
find ways to write grants. I am one of those people who 
understands very clearly.
    And so congratulations to you and to the team, it was an 
outstanding proposal, I had an opportunity to read it. So thank 
you for acknowledging that. Thank you.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Manchin.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Fudge, thanks for being here today. And I 
appreciate you being, and the job you are doing. And I want to 
talk to you about the issue of children and youth homelessness.
    In HUD's 2020 Annual Homelessness Report 185 people in 
families with children, and only 120--112 unaccompanied youth 
in West Virginia were identified as homeless. However, children 
and youth experience, homelessness are hidden in our schools, 
communities, and often moving place to place, and staying in 
places like motels.
    My problem is this, we have identified through the 
McKinney-Vento definition, 10,000 in West Virginia. There is 
such a difference. And I guess it is because of the definitions 
and what we are using as definitions versus what HUD and 
McKinney-Vento. Is there any way that we can pair that up? 
Because it is harming us, we are really not addressing with the 
amount of urgency that we should be.
    Secretary Fudge. Well, the one great thing about the 
President's budget, there is an allocation, or a request for an 
allocation of $82 million to deal with homeless youth.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Secretary Fudge. That includes high school, those aging out 
of foster care.
    Senator Manchin. And I am sorry to interrupt you, but 
where--what numbers are they going to use? Are they going to 
use the HUD's definition, or McKinney-Vento's definition?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, we are going to actually try to 
combine the two, because I know that there is a difference 
there.
    Senator Manchin. Fine. It needs to be done. Okay. You know 
you have a problem there?
    Secretary Fudge. Yes.
    Senator Manchin. Let me jump around, because we have--if 
you can get that done, that will be a miracle for all of us, 
because if not, let me just say this too; whenever you are 
dispersing funds, if you all could consider, I have been trying 
to write this in every piece of legislation, 20 percent of the 
population of the United States of America is determined or 
defined as rural. And if you want to know the geopolitical 
problems that we have, it is rural versus urban and it gets 
bigger, and the chasm gets bigger and bigger. And if you are 
ever going to unite our country back together, it is basically 
treating everyone equally.
    When the money is disbursed, if you can make sure that 20 
percent of the money goes directly to rural areas, so only 
rural states or rural communities can compete for that 20 
percent. We lose out every time when a big urban area jumps in, 
New York, or Chicago, or Florida, or Hawaii, Honolulu, we lose 
out. We cannot compete because the scales of economy, economy 
of scales basically work better, giving more people help, 
because there is more people, but the 20 percent set aside is 
all I am asking for.
    If you could take that back to your team and talk about 
that, because we are trying to write legislation, anything that 
comes through 66 million people live in rural, out of 330. That 
is all I am asking for. Let those 66 have the same shot, 
proportionately, as the rest, because--I will give you a 
perfect example: Healthcare, $172 billion now out the door on 
all the healthcare CARES--COVID packages, only 6 percent went 
to rural. Rural hospitals were closing. How in the world do you 
close a hospital during a pandemic? Okay. That is enough of 
that. But I do need your help on that. You can help us 
immensely.
    Let us go to the CDBG, Community Development Block Grant. 
It is one of the longest-running programs of the Department of 
Housing and Urban Development, it is s useful program because 
it allows recipient communities to have flexibility to 
determine how best to use the money for their state's unique 
needs. And it is used for so many good things. Here is the 
problem. The program has a lot of bipartisan support in 
Congress. Okay?
    Secretary Fudge. Mm-hmm.
    Senator Manchin. But despite that support, the previous 
administration sought to dismantle the program, to dismantle 
it. So I want to know what your intentions are and your plans 
to not only, not dismantle it, but to bolster it.
    Secretary Fudge. Actually, we have made a request for 
increased funding for CDBG. It is the most flexible program.
    Senator Manchin. You know that, too, don't you, from being 
a mayor?
    Secretary Fudge. That is right.
    Senator Manchin. I appreciate you so much. I really do. I 
just want to make sure you know this is a partnership and we 
need it, and if we don't do it and do it right, God help us 
all, because there is so much--the cost of housing now, what 
are we going to do on that? How do you address that? This 
inflated costs that we are going through right now, and how do 
we get people in, out of the cost.
    Secretary Fudge. I think that also goes back to some of the 
questions that we have been asked about affordable housing, 
when we were talking about veterans. The biggest problem we 
have with veteran housing is rural areas because they don't 
have the--they don't have the capacity within the communities; 
they don't have the housing to even--to put veterans in. So it 
is a major, major problem.
    So what we are talking about doing now is creating through 
low-income housing tax credits, through neighborhood 
improvement home tax credits, to make sure that we can make it 
more affordable. If we do those two things, which come out of 
Treasury, and then if we put in our home dollars, our housing 
trust dollars, we can bring down the cost of that house.
    Senator Manchin. One thing I would ask you all to consider 
is ownership. The greatest thing we have is the people that, 
basically, we provide housing for, and subsidize the rent and 
everything else, they are a tenant, not an owner. They don't 
take care of things the way they would, if they were an owner, 
they don't look at any building, any values whatsoever, and 
they are afraid they are going to lose their benefits because 
now they have assets.
    It is absolutely a conundrum that we cannot get out of 
abject poverty in Appalachia or poverty-stricken areas. And 
unless you let them buy in to have ownership, we are never 
going to cure this.
    Secretary Fudge. I think you will be pleased that there is 
$100 million in this budget to assist with homeownership.
    Senator Manchin. I hope $20 million of that is basically 
going to be in rural America.
    Secretary Fudge. I got it.
    Senator Manchin. Okay. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Boozman.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Remember I like 
Hawaii.
    Senator Schatz. I do remember.
    Senator Boozman. It is good to have you, Madam Secretary, 
as an old house member, we appreciate you, and hope you are 
having a good experience over on the Senate side.
    Secretary Fudge. It is good to see you, Senator.
    Senator Boozman. Again, thank you for being here, and 
taking time to speak with us. I am sure you know, last 
Congress, we came together in a bipartisan manner and passed 
the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021, which created a 
$25 billion emergency rental assistance program designed to 
repay a renter's back-rent debts.
    Following that Congress passed the American Rescue Plan, 
which created a second round of emergency, or rental assistance 
of $21 billion. So now we have a total of roughly $46 billion 
in rental assistance. The Bipartisan Consolidated 
Appropriations Act established parameters for how the first 
round of emergency rental assistance funding can be used. And 
it was clear, it was meant to repay renters back-rent debts.
    However, what concerns me is that these parameters were 
changed in the American Rescue Plan and the safeguards in the 
American Rescue Plan are different than those in the 
Appropriations Act. So you have got a difference in the two 
bills. It also concerns me that I have heard from constituents 
and colleagues that Treasury has not been able to provide 
details about how and where the money is being spent, and that 
some states are having difficulty setting up the program. While 
I recognize that you don't work for the Treasury Department, 
your agency has authority over the Section 8 Housing Choice 
Voucher Program, and I am sure you agree with us how important 
it is to meet rental assistance needs.
    In that light, can you commit to working with Congress to 
make sure we address any potential mismanagement of the 
Emergency Rental Assistance Program, or any other potential 
areas of mismanagement around affordable housing? And then 
again, square the two bills, in the sense that we have got 
different direction coming out of each one of them?
    Secretary Fudge. Oh, absolutely. I certainly commit to do 
that. But let me just reassure you that the appropriation act 
that was passed is the determining factor in how we go forward.
    Senator Boozman. Very good. Well, being on the 
Appropriations Committee, we like to hear that. We have heard 
from a constituency in the mortgage industry that updates to 
the information technology systems and processes of HUD that 
support the FHA program have lagged behind comparable 
information technology systems and processes used by other 
mortgage market participants.
    We work hard in government to provide those things, but it 
is not uncommon for us to lag behind. In recent years Congress 
has appropriated dedicated funding for upgrades to FHA 
technology. Can you share your views on the progress that HUD 
has made to date, and how you can continue these efforts moving 
forward, to get our technology up to snuff?
    Secretary Fudge. Thank you for asking that question, 
Senator. We have been looking at where we have significant 
skill gaps, and that is one of the places where we do. As we 
talk with the Head of GAO, he cited it for me. The first thing 
he said was: You have a significant skills gap, but you also 
are at risk of cyberattacks because of the lack of investment 
in your systems.
    And so that is one of the things that we are talking about 
in our budget, is being able to not only just build the 
capacity with people, but to build the systems. And so we know 
that we have a problem, and we are working on it.
    Senator Boozman. Very good. Thank you. An ongoing area of 
focus with FHA relates to broad consumer access to affordable, 
sustainable housing. As I am sure you would agree, it is very 
important that consumers all across America have access to 
affordable, sustainable housing, particularly in rural America, 
whether we are talking about eligibility requirements for 
providers, of down payment assistance, or treatment of 
potential borrowers with student loan debt. In your view, 
Secretary Fudge, are there areas in which policy shifts and 
greater regulatory clarity for lenders, would promote improved 
access to credit, which is also very important?
    Secretary Fudge. It is one of the major issues and major 
impediments to home ownership, and it has been going on for far 
too long. So we are actually sitting down trying to determine 
what it is in the way that we assess credit worthiness that can 
be changed. We know that things like student loans, which you 
just mentioned, are weighted heavier than other types of 
credit. And who has those kinds of debts? Poorer people, 
moderate-income people, people of color. So we know that there 
are some things that we must do and we are working on it. And I 
think you will be pleased to see what we come up with in a very 
short period of time.
    Senator Boozman. Good. Thank you for your testimony.
    Secretary Fudge. Thank you.
    Senator Boozman. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Secretary, between 2012 and 2019 HUD had a 
20 percent decline in full-time employees. We talked a little 
bit about this before the hearing started. Can you speak to 
what that has done to the agency? And what you are doing about 
it? And what we can do about it?
    Secretary Fudge. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And I 
just want to say that when you look at HUD and its totality, 
part of the problems that we have, whether it be VA, or whether 
it be getting funds out from--that have been so graciously 
given to us by Congress, capacity is a problem with us, just as 
it is with our end-users.
    Part of the problem that we had with the funds that came 
out of CARES, and others, is that when Treasury sent the 
resources, there was nobody to provide technical assistance, 
there was no one to assist people to tell them how they should 
use it. And so what happens is when you have especially small 
communities, and rural communities, they are afraid to use 
funds if they don't know what they are supposed to be doing. 
And so they hold it, and they use other money, so when you came 
down with the COVID money, they used it instead of the CARES 
money, because that was more clear to them.
    And so when you lose 20 percent of your staff, it keeps you 
from accomplishing your mission. You cannot do the work we do 
if you are shorthanded. So what I found at my entrance into the 
agency, as an agency that have great employees, but they were 
overworked and we were understaffed. And so until we can start 
to build back up our staff, and build back up our capacity, we 
are at risk of not doing some things that we should do to make 
sure that our mission is completed.
    Senator Schatz. But what do we do to build back up the 
staff? I am sure that previous HUD secretaries were not--well, 
maybe some were, but from that time period, you would assume 
that most secretaries are not desirous of reducing their 
capacity by 20 percent. So it is not just a matter of wanting 
to increase your capacity. We have got to have a strategy for 
it. So what should you be doing? And what should we be doing to 
reverse the trend?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, there are two things that we must 
do. In this budget we requested a significant increase in 
salaries and expenses. We know that we need it. Secondly, we 
have to start to hire people and hire them faster. We are 
looking at, today, more than 500 people in our agency who are 
eligible to retire, more than 500. This has been happening year 
after year, so the attrition has created as big a problem as 
not hiring people and not hiring them quickly enough.
    But the other thing we need to do is make sure we hire 
people with the right skill sets to do the work that needs to 
be done. It is unfortunate that over the last--over that 10-
year period or so that no one thought it important to make sure 
that we were able to do our work with the limited staff we 
have. Now, we have--because of your kindness, we were able to 
come up a little bit, but we are woefully short of where we 
need to be. And so that is why this budget requests those 
resources.
    Senator Schatz. Is the slow hiring time, is that a function 
of capacity, you know, throughput capacity, or are there 
idiosyncratic processes or rules that need to be changed? Or is 
there a statutory barrier? What is going on there?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, we have changed them. When I came 
into the agency, they said it would take 180 days to onboard an 
employee, 180 days. And so we have been able to cut that in 
half at least. And the other thing we would do, let us just 
say, for instance, in every single department, we have an 
advisor of some sort, they would post every advisor separately. 
When we know the advisor position is the same, no matter where 
it is, so I am saying: let's post them all at the same time.
    There are many things we can do, but sometimes we do get 
bogged down in what we have always done. So we need to change 
the mindset and put some urgency behind what we are doing, 
because I do not believe that if we do not show some urgency 
that we are going to be able to accomplish our tasks.
    Senator Schatz. Yes, and just one observation before I turn 
it over to Senator Collins. I think what Senator Manchin said 
is right, which is that HUD has become a sort of politically 
polarized agency with the notable exception of many members, on 
a bipartisan basis on this committee, it is something that has 
been fought over in terms of urban versus rural, and to the 
degree and extent that we can make sure that everybody 
understands that everybody benefits from funding, and resources 
towards housing, whether you live in a small town, or not a 
town at all, or a big city, you know, then you can, not just 
provide resources, but provide a direction, a collective 
direction for all employees and for the country to say: We are 
all committed to housing, that is one of the few things we are 
going to decide not to disagree about. And I think that that is 
a really important aspect of improving morale, improving 
capacity, and getting that continued bipartisan consensus for 
funding.
    Secretary Fudge. But if I may Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Sure.
    Secretary Fudge. This budget is requesting the largest 
single increases in rural capacity, in rural housing, in tribal 
housing, native Hawaiian housing, senior housing, and housing 
for the disabled. It is a significant portion of the increases 
in those buildings--this budget goes to those particular 
things.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much.
    Senator Collins.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Madam Secretary, you have said many times set HUD is 
understaffed. And I agree with you on that. And that obviously 
is a barrier to effectively implementing programs, but I do 
want to point out too, that under the CARES Act, the Office Of 
Community Planning and Development was given substantial new 
funding, $10 million, I believe it was. And to date, as of June 
3rd, only 13.1 percent has been spent.
    So some of the problem appears to be at HUD, if we are 
giving you that kind of extra money to hire staff, to implement 
the CARES Act, which was passed more than a year ago, and you 
have only spent a little over 13 percent of the money for 
salaries; there is some problem at HUD.
    Secretary Fudge. I don't disagree with you Senator. There 
is a problem at HUD. I absolutely agree with you 100 percent. 
What we found--or let me say, what I found when I arrived is 
that there didn't seem to be the kind of systems in place to 
make sure that these funds were spent properly and timely. I 
agree with you, we are addressing it now. And I think that you 
will find that as we go through the next few months, through 
the assistance that we are going to provide as well as in-
house, you are going to see a difference in those resources. 
But I don't disagree.
    Senator Collins. Let me bring to your attention, another 
issue, the budget that is related, and it may already be on 
your radar screen. The budget request includes $125 million for 
service coordinators in the Section 202 Program, and as you 
know, the service coordinators help link residents of eligible 
housing with supportive services provided by community 
agencies; the Department funds these coordinators through a 
combination of direct grants and budget-based rents.
    So I am pleased that our subcommittees worked to increase 
funding for these counselors, but I am concerned that there are 
still two open GAO recommendations to HUD related to service 
coordinators. And one of them relates to the fact that HUD does 
not know how many service coordinators it has. And knowing how 
many service coordinators HUD has seems to me to be pretty 
fundamental information that the Department should have.
    So what is the Department doing to address these open GAO 
recommendations? It is really hard for us to decide how much 
money to give for how many people, if you cannot tell us how 
many people you have.
    Secretary Fudge. I certainly appreciate that concern. I did 
have a meeting last week with the director of GAO. We went 
through the top 13 concerns, the biggest ones. This was one, we 
are already putting in place a plan to make sure that we 
address them within a very short window of time. But he--I 
think we came away from the meeting, knowing that, we do have 
the information. It is just a matter of over the last period of 
time, no one seemed to want to get the information together and 
give it to--we have the information, and we can get the 
information to you.
    Senator Collins. Let me now turn to one final issue that I 
want to touch on. I may have some additional questions for the 
record, and that is cybersecurity. We know that cybersecurity 
is an increasingly critical issue. We have seen the SolarWinds 
attack, which affected nine separate departments, the Colonial 
Pipeline cyberattack.
    But it is not just big companies, or the Federal government 
that are targets. I know from my work on the Aging Committee, 
that every day Americans, and particularly seniors, are victims 
of cyberattacks. According to the FBI, one of the fastest-
growing cybercrimes is real estate wire fraud. In 2019 more 
than $220 million that we know of was stolen from Americans as 
a result of those kinds of housing-related cyberattacks.
    Madam Secretary, the budget request, nearly $86 million for 
the Office of Housing Counseling. What is HUD going to do to 
help combat real estate wire fraud by using a portion of that 
money for that purpose?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, let me just report that over the 
last few weeks, we actually did have someone working remotely 
open a virus on their system. And so before we knew it, because 
we could not get the systems in place fast enough, 750 people 
had already been infected with the virus, but part of the 
problem was, is because we outsource so much of this because we 
don't have the skills in-house to do it, it took them three 
days to get back to us.
    And so we have to do two things. One is we have to make 
sure that those people who have the contracts or who are 
responsible are people that we bring in and say to them, this 
is not acceptable, and this is our expectation. But also to 
have the skill in house so that they can catch it as well. When 
you decide that you are going to outsource everything that is 
important, things like your security, and no one in house can 
catch it. Then there is a problem. It is just the way the 
system has been designed, but we need to change it. And we are 
working on doing that.
    Senator Collins. I agreed that you need to improve your 
internal cybersecurity, but I hope that you will also look at 
ways to educate consumers about the danger of real estate wire 
fraud. Thank you.
    Secretary Fudge. To work safe, and we absolutely will.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Fudge, the OMB, let's see, in January of 2021, 
announced a proposed change to the metropolitan statistical 
area, MSAs, to increase it, the population threshold from 
50,000 to 100,000, to the MSA standard. And, that is a concern 
to 140 communities across the country in 45 states, including 
three communities in my state, Grand Forks, Bismarck, and 
Minot. So we don't want to see that MSA standard increase from 
50 to 100,000. And that affects--the MSAs affect not only the 
labor market conditions, the information that we get there, but 
also government programs and funding formulas, including for 
CDBG, Community Development Block Grants, a very important 
program, as well as the home investment partnership program, 
and others.
    So programs that you administer. Myself, along with a 
bipartisan group of senators have written OMB expressing our 
current concerns and that--advocating that it not be increased 
from 50- to 100,000. What is your opinion on that? And 
hopefully you will agree with our position. And if so, would 
you be willing to weigh in with OMB on it?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, I would suggest to you that I think 
that we need to constantly take into consideration smaller 
communities. I was the mayor of a small community, so that's--
it's good to say.
    Senator Hoeven. That is good. So would you be willing to 
weigh in and help with OMB?
    Secretary Fudge. Oh, absolutely. I am happy to talk to OMB 
to find out how we can come to something, a resolution that is 
something that everybody can live with.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you. So we have 32 public housing 
authorities in our state, but as you say, we are a rural state. 
What kind of assistance does HUD provide for public housing 
authorities located in rural areas to help with not only 
building, but also technical assistance, and training, that 
kind of thing?
    Secretary Fudge. We provide the same assistance we do in 
big cities. The problem that we have in smaller communities is 
that they often don't have the capacity to do some of the work. 
So we are going--we are stepping up our technical assistance to 
smaller public housing authorities, and to smaller communities 
where we have grants out there because we know it is a problem 
just with capacity.
    Senator Hoeven. Very good. The Minot Housing Authority got 
a funding under the Community Development Block Grant Natural 
Disaster Resiliency Program. And they have been using that to 
develop housing after a very severe flood they had in 2011. 
Senator Kaine and I recently, we were able to pass legislation, 
extending that to give them another year. Because they have got 
to expend those monies within a certain period of time or they 
lose--or they lose them. And so it was not just mine, but there 
were 13 of those awards that needed that additional 
flexibility.
    Are you aware of that? And, you know, are they coming along 
all right? Do you know, is that something that we are going to 
have to do again? It is important that these communities have 
that flexibility, so they are not forced to use the funds on 
something that really would not be the right priority. And it 
is just a matter of giving them additional time.
    Secretary Fudge. Let me check into it. I am not aware off 
the top of my head. But I certainly will check and get back 
with you.
    Senator Hoeven. And then, one other question for you; in 
Fargo, we have the Herschel Lashkowitz Tower, and it was built 
50 years ago, it is 200 residential units, it is under the 
auspices of the Fargo Public Housing Authority, and they want 
to demolish it, as I say it is 50 years old, and build a new 
110-unit, multi-use facility. Are there HUD programs or 
assistance available for public housing authorities that are 
seeking to redevelop aging facilities such as this Lashkowitz 
Tower?
    Secretary Fudge. There are. And we are certainly happy to 
talk with your local public housing folks and give them the--
what we can do to assist them.
    Senator Hoeven. Good. Thank you. One final thing I will 
mention in regard to Minot, too, is that we have got about, it 
is about a $1.2 billion flood protection project going there. 
We have broken it into eight phases. The first four are pretty 
much underway. That covers about 65 percent of the community. 
There is about 50,000 people in the community, but this 
actually covers much of the county, so it would cover, I don't 
know, more than that, you know, 65,000 to 75,000 people 
probably, but for phases five through eight we don't have 
funding in place yet, and those are the lower-income areas, so 
we cannot make benefit cost to get any help from the Corps.
    So we were using state and local funds, but we have tried 
to connect with other agencies, such as yours to see if there 
is anything we could do to help, you know, with collaborative 
funding effort for that flood protection. And so, I don't know 
if you have programs like that, but if you do it would sure be 
good to partner.
    Secretary Fudge. You just have to reach out to us, because 
I mean one of the things that is great about what we do as an 
administration is we work across agencies quite well, actually.
    Senator Hoeven. Yes.
    Secretary Fudge. So even if we don't have resources, 
someone else may have. Maybe the USDA has, maybe somebody else 
does. So we will take a look and see if there is some way I 
can.
    Senator Hoeven. Yes. I am thinking under some of your low 
income housing programs might be need to get some, and of 
course--
    Secretary Fudge. Plus, you know, I think people forget 
about the resources USDA has as well.
    Senator Hoeven. Right on.
    Secretary Fudge. We will work together.
    Senator Hoeven. Yes. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Collins.
    Madame Secretary, it is great to see you. A lot to cover in 
your budget, but I was pleased to see your proposals. I was 
especially pleased to see the proposed increase in tenant-based 
vouchers by $4.6 billion, which would add 200,000 vouchers, 
which would be a significant jump, as you know. Also was very 
interested in the new mobility-related social services program 
to assist families in finding houses in higher-opportunity 
neighborhoods, two pieces of your budget.
    So, Senator Young and I have introduced bipartisan 
legislation. Last Congress, we just reintroduce it again 
yesterday in honor of your appearing here today, which would 
create 500,000 housing mobility vouchers. So coupling those two 
ideas in your budget, it would provide 500,000 additional 
mobility vouchers over the next 5 years. So this allows more 
families to move to areas of opportunity.
    I raised this issue with you in the last hearing. I am 
hoping you had a chance to look at it. I would like to get the 
Biden administration, and you, Madam Secretary, to support this 
legislation. It seems to fit perfectly with your proposals.
    Secretary Fudge. We have discussed it. We are discussing it 
still. They are happy to have more conversations about it to 
get better understanding, but we are discussing it.
    Senator Van Hollen. Okay.
    Secretary Fudge. So don't think I forgot.
    Senator Van Hollen. I appreciate that. No I just--hopefully 
we have now introduced it, and we support any--we will take a 
look at any suggestions you have got, but I would like to move 
forward on this.
    Secretary Fudge. Okay.
    Senator Van Hollen. Because we are considering this in the 
context of some of the legislation, in terms of the American 
Families Plan.
    Secretary Fudge. Well, the good thing is they are not 
opposed to what you are doing.
    Senator Van Hollen. I would be surprised if you were 
opposed, Madam Secretary, so hopefully we will get a yes, a big 
yes.
    Secretary Fudge. All right. Thank you.
    Senator Van Hollen. So your budget also proposes a new 
piece and add on to the CDBG program, $295 million to: 
``Advance the administration's priority in redressing the 
history of the Federal government systemically declining to 
invest in communities of color and low income neighborhoods.'' 
And it goes on. Baltimore City, is an example of a city that 
had redlining. It was one of the worst in terms of 
discriminatory zoning practices. Can you tell us how you are 
going to make the determinations with respect to the use of 
these funds?
    Secretary Fudge. One of the things we know is that FHA is 
such a significant player in the market, and we do have some 
input on what happens with FHA clearly. And so we are going to 
be looking at how we best do this in a fair way. And I think 
you will be pleased with what we come up with. We are still 
having those discussions, but I think that, FHA, Ginnie, and 
everybody else that we are working with knows that there are 
some things that we need to do. There are some things we need 
to shift. And not just as we look at how we talk about 
redlining, but just even in terms of appraisals of properties.
    When we look at how we do transportation, when we--there 
are so many things that are involved in this, but we are 
working together with Transportation, with VA, and with some 
others, but primarily FHA is the major player in this.
    Senator Van Hollen. All right, Madam Secretary. Yes. If you 
could get back to us, because this is a very, I think positive 
proposal, this relates to CDBG grants. So I would be interested 
in how FHA is playing a role there. We would just like some 
clarity on how you are planning to use these CDBG funds. 
Separately, and regarding FHA, a lot of us, and I think on a 
bipartisan basis are interested in helping first-time home 
buyers, as well.
    And FHA, they are their financing of homes are really 
important to first-time home owners. In fact, you know, 83 
percent, I think of first-time homeowners received FHA loans. 
You have proposed something called the HEAL Pilot Project, 
which is a new FHA initiative for this year, that would help 
lower barriers to home ownership. So are you going to be 
proposing to help first-time homeowners with those down 
payments? Are you talking about lower interest rates? Can you 
talk about what combination of help you are thinking about?
    Secretary Fudge. We are talking about all of the above.
    Senator Van Hollen. Okay.
    Secretary Fudge. What we really want to do is be sure that 
when people--we have found that if you come into a 
homeownership and you already have a stake in it, which most 
low-income people don't, because they don't have the kind of 
down payment that is necessary. We want to be sure that we can 
assist them in making sure that they don't need a loan more 
than 90 percent. So that is going to be a number of things.
    Senator Van Hollen. Okay.
    Secretary Fudge. And, and it is going to be home down 
payment assistance, it is going to be fee structure, it is 
going to be tax rates, it is going to be a lot of things, but 
we just want to be sure that we can make those people who can 
pay their rent now, most of whom can afford to pay a mortgage, 
but just a system to get over the hump.
    Senator Van Hollen. Right.
    Secretary Fudge. And like with the CDBG, you know, that is 
so flexible with communities, we are hopeful that some of those 
resources will be used to also assist people in getting a home.
    Senator Van Hollen. Well, as you well know, a big part of 
the racial wealth gap can be traced to differentials in home 
ownership, so I do think this is a really important area. And I 
look forward to working with you. Thank you. Thank you, Madam 
Secretary.
    Secretary Fudge. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Braun.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Good to be talking to you again. Traveling around Indiana. 
I hear three things, pre-COVID, during-COVID with the need for 
a rural broadband, workforce development and training, and then 
affordable housing. According to the GAO, 150 housing programs 
across 20 agencies are out there, HUD's budget has grown from 
$44.2 million in 2019, $49 billion in 2020, $59.7 billion in 
2021, and now a 13 percent increase requested, up to $68.7 
billion.
    I still hear the same thing as I did, you know, two, 3 
years ago, that we still have the issue. Are we applying 
metrics to what we are spending all this money on? Are we doing 
a better job of, you know, lowering the amount of need for 
affordable housing? We put a lot of resources to it. And then 
also is there one of these 150 programs that maybe should be 
eliminated because it is not working well? I cannot believe 
that we have that many chasing the same issue and that it would 
not be confusing to some extent, and that every one of them 
would be effective and that we may want to reorient resources, 
and at least measure things better. What do you think about 
that?
    Secretary Fudge. Well, I have not done assessment of all of 
the programs, but if they have that many, I am certain we 
probably should look at them. I mean, I don't certainly have a 
problem with that. I do believe that you can always do things 
better. I think you can always do things more efficiently. So I 
don't certainly have any concern about looking at them. And as 
it relates to the increases in budget, I would suggest two 
things to you. One is that from 2010 to 2019, we have lost so 
much in terms of funding and staff, that this is just an effort 
to try to make up, to do the work that we know that we need to 
do.
    When you lose 20-plus percent of your staff over an eight-
year period, it is most difficult to do the work. And so what 
we are doing, we are trying to make up for what we lost. I am 
not going to try to sugarcoat that in any way; we are 
significantly understaffed and overworked. But yes, I do think 
we need to take a look. That is what government does.
    Senator Braun. Were you understaffed pre-COVID as well?
    Secretary Fudge. Oh, absolutely.
    Senator Braun. Okay.
    Secretary Fudge. Oh, absolutely.
    Senator Braun. And with those kinds of budget increases, 
which average 10 to 15 percent a year over the last 4 years, 
that would mean that there was either a lot of catching up to 
do, or that it might need to be spent more efficiently because, 
obviously, our economy, when it is booming grows 3 percent a 
year, and that is about four to five times, the rate of 
increase that you can afford to pay for any government program.
    Secretary Fudge. Let me say, Senator, that I don't--I don't 
see where over the last 4 years in particular, our budgets went 
up significantly, they were pretty much flat. And then as, as 
it relates to why the cost is so great, just even in your own 
community, the same house you could buy, or the same place you 
could rent 4 years ago, you cannot rent anymore for what we are 
willing to give a voucher for.
    Senator Braun. It was a GAO that got the figures 44 49, 59, 
and now 68. So it may appear flat maybe due to the need being 
that great. I have got another question here. In President 
Biden's budget, it includes $5 billion for a new competitive 
grant program for jurisdictions that eliminate exclusionary 
zoning. How does the administration define exclusionary zoning? 
And do you believe every community should have the same zoning 
standards?
    Secretary Fudge. Let me start from the end, no. I do not 
believe every community should have the same zoning standards. 
As well, let me just, I think, maybe just disagree a bit. It 
does not give grants to eliminate it. It gives grants to 
discuss it, to talk about how we can eliminate it. It talks 
about what communities are doing to make affordable and low-
income housing more difficult. So what we want to talk to them 
about is things that they may not even be aware of in their 
zoning codes that are creating unnecessary barriers and/or 
increasing the cost of building new housing.
    So it is not a demand. It is not a dictate in any way. It 
is a discussion. And I agree that communities should have the 
flexibility themselves. But what we want to do is engage those 
communities with the people who want to build housing, with the 
people who live in those communities, and not just say: Do you 
know what? We have got the zoning, it is fine with us. Let's 
take a look at it.
    Senator Braun. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Murray.
    Senator Murray. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Fudge, thank you for joining us today and for all 
of your work on this budget. You know, I have spoken to people 
in communities across my home state of Washington who have 
raised really serious concerns about the impact this pandemic 
has had on housing security, and the pressure that it has added 
to the existing affordable housing crisis that my state was 
facing long before COVID.
    So I was really pleased to see President Biden's budget lay 
out a plan to meet this moment, and to push out strong 
investments in creating and preserving affordable housing. One 
of my top priorities, as a member of this subcommittee, is to 
make sure the Federal government is providing the resources, 
knowledge, and support necessary to end the homelessness crisis 
that individuals and families are experiencing across 
Washington State. And I know this is a struggle for many other 
states as well, and it is not just an issue for the most 
populated areas. It is a challenge in our small cities, in our 
suburbs, in our rural communities.
    And it is just heartbreaking to see this as, especially 
when so many children are involved. I believe it is essential, 
the Federal government does all it can to provide the resources 
and coordination with state and local authorities. So I was 
pleased to see the strong funding included in the budget for 
homeless assistance grants and a major infusion of additional 
housing choice vouchers.
    Can you just talk with me a little bit about how the fiscal 
year 2022 request will address homelessness, and the importance 
of robust funding for those accounts?
    Secretary Fudge. I mean, I think that it is important for 
people to realize that unsheltered homeless is now larger than 
those who are sheltered. That is how significant the problem 
has changed and how it has grown. Part of the reasons that the 
President and this budget are requesting additional resources 
is because what we are finding, let's just take your state, for 
instance, we have the resources to provide the vouchers. We 
don't have the places to put them because of the high cost of 
rentals and the low vacancies in communities like yours.
    So what we need to do is expand the numbers of units that 
are available for homeless and/or low-income, or moderate-
income people. And that is why there is a huge focus on how we 
treat homeless, especially because we know that we don't have 
the congregate facilities and we don't want them anymore 
because of COVID.
    But what COVID did was just basically shine a bright light 
on the problem that we already had. And so the best we can do 
right now is try to find ways to--and many communities are 
doing it--I have talked to mayors and governors all the 
country, and they are all using different things here. In 
Washington, D.C., the mayor is talking about using those 
resources to build new housing for the homeless, and for low-
income. In places like Los Angeles they are buying motels and 
hotels that house the homeless. The resources are flexible, we 
just need for people to have the kind of assistance to make 
decisions as to what to do. And that is what these resources 
will let us do.
    Senator Murray. Good. And I was really pleased to see the 
strong funding for home and CDBG programs that were included in 
the budget, because as you know, this subcommittee has rejected 
attempts in recent years to get those programs. And I am really 
hopeful that we can use this request to push for further 
increases in those flexible funds. And maybe you can talk a 
little bit about how the increased levels of investment, in 
addition to the ones that are proposed in the American Jobs 
Plan, will help boost that supply of affordable housing.
    Secretary Fudge. Well, the great thing about the Jobs Plan 
budget is that there is a request for $213 billion to assist. 
This is over and above the homeless money. This is just 
creating new low-income and moderate-income housing units, 
because we know that no matter what we do with the resources we 
have today, we cannot solve the problem, we just want to have 
places to put people, we don't have places where people can 
live decently, and public housing, because it is already at its 
limit, is not the answer either.
    So what we are trying to do is even take some of these 
vouchers, these emergency vouchers, and turn them into project-
based vouchers, or tenant-based vouchers so that we can use 
them in other ways to get those who are experiencing 
homelessness into housing very quickly.
    Senator Murray. Thank you. And to close, I just want to 
underscore my strong support for major investments for 
affordable housing, like the ones that are included in the 
American Jobs Plan to be included in any infrastructure package 
we do. Like I mentioned earlier, in my state, we were 
experiencing an affordable housing crisis before this pandemic, 
and getting back to where we were is not going to be good 
enough. This is going to take a lot of work to build us back 
fair and stronger. And I think it is time we make bold 
investments in housing infrastructure, to make sure that 
everyone has a safe, secure place to live. Just, this is not 
the time to hold back on this. We have got a lot of work to do. 
So I appreciate your work on this, Madam Secretary.
    And Mr. Chairman, thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Senator Murray. Thank you, 
Senator Collins. Secretary Fudge, thanks for coming today to 
discuss HUD's fiscal year 2022 Budget Request.

                     ADDITIONAL COMMITTEE QUESTIONS

    The hearing record will remain open until Friday, June 
18th, to allow members to submit additional questions for the 
record. This hearing is now adjourned.
              Questions Submitted by Senator Brian Schatz
    Question. Local housing markets can be highly volatile, and in the 
last year, many communities experienced increases of over 15 percent in 
rents in a single year. This committee has continued to encourage HUD 
to make progress to reduce the time lag in rent data used to establish 
fair market rents (FMRs) for Section 8 housing assistance payments.
    How can HUD make sure fair market rents and operations are 
responsive in these fast-changing markets? How does HUD plan to support 
public housing authorities as they work through local challenges?
    Answer. HUD has three main strategies to address rapidly increasing 
rents, with the ultimate aim of enabling HCV families to better locate 
and rent suitable units. The first strategy is to encourage PHAs to 
take advantage of the range of existing regulatory flexibilities to 
better align their payment standards to market rents, including 
utilization of exception and success rate payment standards.

    Second, HUD assists PHAs in working through local challenges in 
several ways:

  --HUD has made technical assistance available to support PHAs in 
        achieving high utilization in high-cost markets.

  --For the new Emergency Housing Voucher (EHV) program, HUD has 
        established an alternative requirement permitting PHAs to 
        establish separate higher payment standards for EHVs. Through 
        the alternative requirement, PHAs may establish a payment 
        standard for the EHV program up to 120 percent of the 
        applicable FMR/SAFMR. More than 600 PHAs across 55 states and 
        Territories received an EHV allocation. Many of these PHAs 
        serve high-cost urban and rural markets.

    Finally, HUD has three grant-funded studies underway looking at 
methodologies to improve FMR estimates in markets with rapidly rising 
rents. The researchers are examining use of private sector data 
sources, web-scraping of rental advertisements, and machine-learning 
and Artificial Intelligence (AI)-based forecasting as alternatives to 
the current approach to calculating FMRs. One tension HUD will face in 
implementing many of the techniques identified by the research 
underway, should they prove to be more accurate, will be loss of the 
transparency Congress and the public have come to expect in being able 
to review the data and calculations behind every FMR.
    HUD has received criticism in the past that PHAs generally do not 
have the resources necessary to conduct rent studies to re-evaluate 
HUD's FMR calculations. These studies do use PHA resources, and many 
PHAs' resources are already stretched thin. Congress could provide 
dedicated funding to PHAs to cover a portion of the local FMR surveys 
costs. There could be something like PD&R's Research Partnerships 
program where HUD splits the survey cost with a PHA. If the Committee 
would like to do more to support PHAs in conducting rent studies, HUD 
is happy to engage.
    Question. The President's budget includes a $295 million set-aside 
in CDBG for historically underserved communities. HUD proposes 
developing a formula geographically targeting distressed communities 
and allowing eligible grantees to participate and receive additional 
allocations for revitalizing activities.
    When will you be able to share the revised formula for the CDBG 
distressed communities' set-aside, and will the allocations be 
substantial enough to really revitalize these communities?
    Answer. The additional CDBG funds ($295 million) will be allocated 
to grantees that opt-in and commit to use the incentive funds for more 
geographically targeted, potentially transformational activities in a 
specific neighborhood/Census place. HUD is discussing opt-in and 
formula approaches internally and is available to discuss the approach. 
Because allocation amounts to each participating grantee will depend on 
which and how many grantees opt in, no formula runs are feasible in 
advance of the opt-in period.
    The areas to be targeted may include neighborhoods with at least 20 
percent poverty, areas of persistent poverty, low- and moderate-income 
areas of minority concentration, brownfields, certain designated slums 
and blighted areas, Neighborhood Revitalization Strategy Areas, income-
qualified areas most impacted by a major disaster, and Opportunity 
Zones. These areas are small geographical areas where investments can 
make a significant difference. Even if a majority of CDBG grantees opt 
in and the per-project award is relatively low, grantees would still be 
able to undertake planning and pre-development activities, and could 
seed small business lending, which could help attract partners and 
leverage. Grantees can also supplement the awards with formula CDBG 
funds.
    Eligible activities include CDBG activities related to construction 
and reconstruction of public facilities and improvements, special 
economic development to small businesses or local entrepreneurs, 
acquisition and disposition of real property, and rehabilitation of 
housing and other structures. The CDBG incentive funds could also be 
used for planning activities to align codes, more modern zoning, 
master/comprehensive/area-wide plans, and expediting permitting to 
direct and support reinvestment of public and private funds into one or 
more historically underfunded areas.
    The benefit of this incentive will exceed the reach of the 
funding--by providing multiple examples of targeted investment in a 
smaller range of activity types, it will enable HUD to evaluate and 
understand what investments drive revitalization. Participating 
grantees can use these results to influence investment decisions for 
their CDBG and local funds. HUD will share successful models 
nationally, with the expectation of advancing local community 
development practice across the entire CDBG portfolio.
    Question. The cost of energy and water utilities continues to 
consume as much as 17 percent of HUD's total program budget.
    In addition to funding green energy and climate resilience 
investments across HUD programs, what else can HUD plan to do to 
institutionalize efficient and resilient practices in rehab and new 
construction projects?
    Answer. HUD is working in partnership with DOE, EPA, and key non- 
governmental institutions to strengthen policies, procedures, and, 
perhaps most importantly, threshold standards. Such standards would 
consistently incentivize and, where appropriate, require HUD funding 
recipients/affordable housing providers to follow aggressive cost- 
reasonable approaches to increase the efficiency and resilience of 
affordable housing, both when developing new and modernizing existing 
affordable housing across all of HUD's affordable housing programs.
    HUD has made significant strides towards institutionalizing 
efficient and resilient practices for affordable properties throughout 
its portfolio, including those that are preserved programs such as the 
Rental Assistance Demonstration (RAD) and properties assisted by HUD 
such as public housing and Section 202 Project Rental Assistance 
Contracts. HUD requires every project to meet the following 
requirements related to energy efficiency and climate resilience.
                           climate resilience
    All RAD conversions undertake an environmental review to assess the 
site and proposed activities for hazards to the residents and the 
property, including flooding. Public housing agencies (PHAs) and owners 
are required to mitigate any environmental risks that arise from the 
environmental review, ensuring that the property is a safe place for 
residents. As examples of required mitigation, when sites have been 
found to be at significant risk (e.g., within floodways), the HUD has 
required PHAs to transfer the assistance to a new, safer location or to 
remove dwelling units from the portion of a site that is at risk and 
replace them elsewhere (or remove those units through Section 18).
                      energy and water efficiency
    All PHAs must use Energy Star(r), WaterSense(r) or Federal Energy 
Management Program (FEMP)-designated products and appliances in any 
work associated with a RAD transaction. In addition, any PHAs 
anticipating a significant level of construction must complete a green 
analysis as part of their capital needs planning, including a detailed 
analysis of energy- saving alternatives and other green building 
components, and the payback and cost/saving analyses for the various 
options. The Capital Needs Assessment (CNA) used for RAD transactions 
is built on green principles. In the CNA narrative, the assessor 
provides an energy audit, which identifies the most efficient 
replacement for systems and building components and explains the 
benefits and cost savings of those updates to the housing authorities. 
The PHA is required to utilize the most energy- and water-efficient 
options that are financially feasible and that are found to be cost-
effective by the CNA.
    For RAD conversions involving new construction, projects must meet 
or exceed the 2009 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) for 
single family or low-rise multifamily properties (three stories or 
less) or the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 standard for mid- or high-rise 
multifamily projects, or any successor codes that are adopted by HUD 
under the requirements of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 
2007. They are encouraged to meet or exceed the requirements for Energy 
Star for New Homes or Energy Star for Multifamily High-Rise buildings. 
Further, in new construction and applicable retrofit projects, HUD 
strongly encourages the use of industry-recognized, green building 
certifications, such as the US Green Building
    Council's LEED Rating System, Enterprise Green Communities 
Criteria, the National Green Building Standard, Green Globes, 
GreenPoint Rating, EarthCraft, Earth Advantage, Passive House, or 
Living Buildings.
    The Public Housing Energy Performance Contracting program is an 
innovative financing technique that provides PHAs with the financial 
flexibility to install cost-effective, utility-related improvements 
with little or no upfront expenditure. It uses cost savings from 
reduced energy consumption to repay the cost of installing energy 
conservation measures. The costs of the energy improvements are borne 
by the performance contractor and paid back out of the energy savings.
    For public housing modernization or development, PHAs are to 
conduct energy audits every five years, and (1) use integrated utility 
management and capital planning to promote energy conservation and 
efficiency measures; (2) improve energy and water-use efficiency by 
installing fixtures and fittings that conform to the American Society 
of Mechanical Engineers/American National Standards Institute standards 
A112.19.2-1998 and A112.18.1-2000, or any revision thereto, applicable 
at the time of installation, and by increasing energy efficiency and 
water conservation; (3) install and use Energy Star appliances whenever 
energy systems, devices, and appliances are replaced, unless it is not 
cost-effective to do so, in accordance with Section 152 of the Energy 
Policy Act of 2005, 42 U.S.C. 15841; and (4) use utility and energy 
management system automation and metering activities, including 
changing master meter systems to individually metered systems if 
installed as part of a modernization activity to upgrade utility 
systems; for example, electric, water, or gas systems of the PHA; and 
(5) procure solid waste management services in a manner that promotes 
energy and resource recovery. (24 CFR part 905)
    In addition to HUD's requirements, 37 states and territories 
require or incentivize green certification programs in the award of 
Low-Income Housing Tax Credits, which are commonly used in RAD 
conversions.
    HUD is mindful of the utility costs it incurs through various 
programs.HUD's FY 2022 budget request includes funding to expand 
benchmarking of properties in HUD's portfolios, using EPA Energy Star 
Portfolio Manager, to obtain 1-100 scores. This data will help HUD 
better understand how efficient/inefficient HUD-assisted properties are 
relative to their peers, identify whether or where to target actions to 
reduce utility consumption, and position us to develop programs to 
incentivize and reward high performers while bringing others to a more 
efficient standard.
    With respect to energy efficiency, the Department intends to 
increase the requirements associated with approving the development of, 
or the substantial recapitalization of, affordable housing, where HUD 
provides significant funding and particularly where the Department 
iscommitted to subsidizing the property in the future (e.g., public 
housing, voucher-based assisted housing).
    The President's FY 2022 Budget Request begins to institutionalize 
these principles, with $150 million in funding for a Rapid Return 
Utility Conservation Program, offering competitive grants for public 
housing investments that have a quick financial return through energy 
efficiencies. The Department is confident that extensive opportunities 
remain for PHAs to implement utility conservation measures that will 
pay for themselves in just a few years.
    The Department is currently working with Department of Energy staff 
at the Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) office on 
researching what standard or standards it should reference in approving 
transactions to develop or recapitalize affordable housing. It could 
potentially reference an existing protocol (e.g., LEED Platinum or 
Enterprise Green Communities) or possibly establish its own 
standard(s). It would then incorporate the standard(s) into NOFOs, as 
well as in requirements for approving recapitalization transactions, 
public housing modernization and development and public housing mixed 
finance approvals.
    While great progress is being made through interagency efforts and 
at the Department of Energy to develop climate resilience building 
standards, the establishment of generally recognized construction and 
operating standards is not as mature as it is with respect to energy 
efficiency. While the Department intends to move forward to establish 
climate resilience standards, it will need time to research the 
development of standards prior to institutionalizing them. When it has 
confidence in climate resilience standards, it will implement those 
standards in the same way that it intends to implement energy 
efficiency/utility conservation standards.
    Furthermore, Community Planning and Development grantees for 
Community Development Block Grants, HOME, Emergency Solutions Grants, 
and Housing Opportunities for Persons With AIDS submit a Consolidated 
Plan every 3-5 years. One of the elements of this plan is a requirement 
to consult stakeholders about and address in the Plan the climate 
resilience needs of low-/moderate-income and vulnerable populations. 
The grantee's Plan must provide an analysis of the jurisdiction's 
vulnerability to natural hazard risks, particularly the vulnerability 
of housing occupied by low- and moderate-income households to increased 
natural hazards associated with climate change. PHAs must submit a 
Certification of Consistency with the Consolidated Plan with their 
Annual Plans (indicating how public housing and section 8 assistance 
will be used in a consistent manner under the Consolidated Plan).
    Question. How will HUD support its partners--especially the smaller 
and lower capacity PHAs, tribal housing entities, and nonprofits--to 
take advantage of these opportunities?
    Answer. HUD's proposal includes technical assistance provided to 
communities through multiple initiatives.
    The Green and Resilient Retrofit program proposed in the FY 2022 
President's Budget request includes significant technical assistance to 
work directly with all participants, especially smaller owner entities, 
to work through the property energy and resilience assessment and 
retrofit process.
    With respect to Tribes and tribally designated housing entities 
(TDHEs), HUD is requesting $100 million in additional funding for 
targeted green and resilient investments in Native American housing. 
This funding would be used to rehabilitate and retrofit existing 
affordable housing stock owned, operated, or assisted by Tribes and 
TDHEs. This funding will modernize existing housing, reduce harmful 
emissions and consumption of energy, and reduce utility costs in Tribal 
housing.
    To ensure that Tribes and TDHEs can successfully implement this new 
funding, HUD will make training and technical assistance funds 
available. Any Tribe, regardless of size or capacity can reach out to 
their HUD local office to request targeted technical assistance 
specifically to provide an internal assessment on capacity and 
financial capability and their ability to compete for competitive 
grants. In addition, HUD will provide national and regional training 
sessions for all interested applicants and grantees.
    Currently, HUD provides a Community Resilience Toolkit specifically 
targeting smaller grantees, nonprofit stakeholders, and neighborhood 
residents and offering specific actions they can take. The toolkit is 
designed to help recipients of Community Planning and Development (CPD) 
funds identify opportunities to use their CPD dollars to mitigate the 
impacts of natural related hazards. Additionally, the toolkit has a 
financing section with other funding opportunities for resilience 
projects. HUD plans robust additional technical assistance related to 
resilience. https://www.hudexchange.info/resource/5981/community-
resilience-toolkit/
    With respect to PHAs, HUD intends to provide extensive 
opportunities for technical assistance provided through multiple 
mechanisms including virtual training, webinars, guidebooks, notices 
and individual PHA access to technical assistance providers where 
appropriate.
    Question. According to HUD's latest Worst Case Housing Needs 
report, additions to the total supply of rental housing between 2015 
and 2017 was less than 1 percent. Without accelerated affordable 
housing supply, lower income renters will continue to be squeezed from 
the market. The Low Income Housing Tax Credit is the largest source of 
federal assistance for the development of affordable housing, and is 
frequently paired with HUD and other Federal funds. However, multiple 
GAO reports have noted the data that is collected and shared between 
HUD and the Department of Treasury could be significantly improved.
    What have you found to be the most efficient financing method to 
get the most affordable housing production out of the limited funding 
available?
    Answer. As the lead up to the question notes, nearly all 
development that occurs today to create affordable housing involves 
complex mixed finance that uses funding from multiple sources in order 
to generate enough subsidy to make the project viable. The largest of 
those subsidy sources for capital finances is the Low-Income Housing 
Tax Credit (LIHTC), but other sources include HOME, Housing Trust Fund, 
Choice Neighborhoods, Section 202, Section 811, and Public Housing 
Capital Fund. Many projects also have FHA mortgage financing to cover 
the debt portion of a project. Supporting the cost to operate the 
housing when tenants have very low and extremely low-incomes generally 
requires Tenant-Based Rental Assistance, Project-Based Rental 
Assistance, 202/811 PRAC, or Public Housing Operating funds. This is 
all to say that the current approach to affordable housing is seldom 
efficient, no matter the program, because of the need to do mixed 
financing. But this also means that it is hard to say what financing 
method is the most efficient. Projects are done on a case-by-case basis 
based on the availability of these resources locally and are subject to 
local decisions.
    Different federal programs supporting affordable rental housing 
have differing goals and targeted populations, making relative 
``funding efficiency'' determinations difficult. Producing housing 
affordable to extremely low-income households (e.g., public housing) 
necessarily takes more subsidy than producing housing that is 
affordable to more lower-income households (e.g., LIHTC). The most 
``cost-efficient'' form of subsidy can also depend on market 
conditions. For example, in markets with high rents and low vacancy, 
project-based new construction will often be more cost-effective, while 
in markets with lower rents, tenant-based assistance is often 
preferable.
    Question. How would addressing LIHTC data gaps improve this 
Committee's understanding of costs, efficiencies and effectiveness 
across Federal housing programs? Do HUD and Treasury have a plan for 
addressing GAO's recommendations and closing identified data gaps?
    Answer. Receiving Low Income Housing Tax Credit (LIHTC) data from 
the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) would provide HUD more complete 
information and more detail on LIHTC development costs, but 1) the 
level of detail the IRS maintains is not sufficient to adequately 
compare the costs of LIHTC to other forms of government rental housing 
support, and 2) the IRS is not legally allowed to share with HUD any of 
the information that they receive. Importantly, Congressional action is 
required to provide an exemption that would allow HUD and Treasury to 
close the identified data gaps.
    Through HUD's LIHTC data collection from state and local housing 
finance agencies, HUD receives the amount of LIHTCs allocated to each 
property. The allocation amount provides an indication of construction 
costs, although it is not sufficient to conduct a cost comparison 
study. In addition, since HUD has no way to enforce the statutory 
requirement that the state housing finance agencies that administer 
LIHTC submit this information to HUD, HUD's data are incomplete in two 
ways. First, not all LIHTC properties are reported to HUD in the year 
after they are placed into service and, second, allocation amounts are 
not always reported for the properties that are included in their 
submissions to HUD. Without the complete list of LIHTC properties as 
reported to the IRS, HUD cannot determine how complete its data is.
    The IRS receives, on Form 8609, the amount of eligible basis (total 
development costs excluding land) and qualified basis (development 
costs for the portion of the property that is dedicated for low-income 
tenants) for each property. While this would provide more detailed and 
more complete information than HUD currently receives, it is also not 
sufficient to compare the costs of LIHTC to other federal housing 
programs. Providing HUD access to this information would, however, 
decrease the reporting burden on the housing finance agencies (HFAs) 
that submit similar information to both the IRS on Form 8609 and to HUD 
in its LIHTC data collection. It would also provide HUD a more complete 
list of LIHTC properties, which would improve knowledge of and research 
on LIHTC.
    The GAO recommendations from their 2015 report include the 
following: ``Congress should consider designating HUD as a joint 
administrator of the program. HUD's role should include oversight 
responsibilities (such as regular monitoring of HFAs) to help address 
deficiencies GAO identified. Treasury agreed HUD could be responsible 
for analyzing the effectiveness of LIHTC, with IRS continuing to 
enforce tax law. HUD and IRS did not comment on the matter for 
congressional consideration. HUD supported consideration of a structure 
for enhanced interagency coordination. The association representing 
HFAs disagreed with the matter. GAO maintains that joint administration 
would strengthen program oversight.'' HUD has no further comment beyond 
those included in the 2015 report.
    Further, GAO issued follow-up reports in 2016 and 2017. Neither of 
these reports had specific recommendations for HUD to implement. Since 
the recommendations are directed to the IRS and Congress, HUD has no 
additional comments at this time.
    Question. On May 24, President Biden announced FEMA would provide 
$1 billion for communities through FEMA's Building Resilient 
Infrastructure and Communities program in 2021 to support pre-disaster 
hazard mitigation projects. A portion of these funds will be targeted 
to disadvantaged communities--an area where HUD also has substantial 
experience through the CDBG-DR program.
    How is HUD working with FEMA on its pre-disaster Building Resilient 
Infrastructure and Communities (BRIC) program, and what does HUD see as 
its role in mitigation versus FEMA's?
    Answer. As with Community Development Block Grant--Disaster 
Recovery (CDBG-DR) funds, HUD's CDBG-MIT grants are designed to achieve 
whole community protection and risk reduction. CDBG-DR and CDBG-MIT 
allow grantees to address risks across a broad range of activities to 
achieve more resilient housing and infrastructure and to spur economic 
revitalization. In addition to a ``whole community'' approach to 
mitigation, HUD also requires grantees to prioritize assistance to low- 
and moderate-income persons and areas, requiring that not less than 
half of all CDBG-MIT funds be used for that purpose. HUD also requires 
CDBG-MIT grantees to assess how CDBG-MIT activities may impact not only 
vulnerable populations, but also protected classes, racially and 
ethnically concentrated areas and concentrated areas of poverty as part 
of its ``whole community'' recovery and mitigation mission.
    HUD often reaches out to FEMA to collaborate on the development and 
implementation of its mitigation activities. For example, HUD staff 
from the Disaster Recovery and Special Issues Division reached out to 
FEMA and volunteered to participate in the review and evaluation of 
FEMA BRIC applications. HUD also reached out to FEMA staff to request 
their participation in the review of HUD's Community Development Block 
Grant--Mitigation (CDBG-MIT) Action Plans, which detail how CDBG-MIT 
grantees will expend those funds and requested their participation in 
our CDBG-MIT Webinar Series to introduce HUD grantees to FEMA's BRIC 
and Hazard Mitigation Grant Program (HMGP), where we discussed the 
possibilities of leveraging those sources with HUD's Community 
Development Block Grant Disaster Recovery (CDBG-DR) and CDBG-MIT funds. 
Additionally, HUD and FEMA have also conducted a webinar on our joint 
guidance that was released by both agencies titled, ``Implementation 
Guidance for Use of CDBG-DR Funds as Non-Federal Cost Share for FEMA PA 
Program.'' Although this guidance does not explicitly address the BRIC 
or HMGP, it highlights the potential for extensive, common-sense 
coordination in both Mitigation and Public Assistance.
    HUD remains open to any engagement proposed by FEMA staff on 
coordination for its BRIC program and would welcome the opportunity to 
provide technical assistance and lessons learned based on HUD's 
experience working with our grantees to prioritize funds for low- and 
moderate-income persons and vulnerable populations.
    Question. We have made record level investments into homeless 
assistance in the FY 2021 appropriations bill, the CARES Act, and the 
American Rescue Plan that allow communities to rethink congregate 
shelters and develop new permanent supportive housing.
    What best practices are you sharing to help get money to grantees 
in order to reverse the growing trend in unsheltered homelessness?
    Answer. HUD is committed to helping communities utilize existing 
resources, as well as new resources awarded through the CARES Act and 
the American Rescue Plan (ARP), to reduce homelessness, including 
unsheltered homelessness.
    Over the past year and a half, HUD has intensified efforts to 
release technical assistance materials highlighting strategies that 
help communities award money to new organizations, which helps with 
spending resources in an equitable manner, and to help them utilize 
these resources effectively. This includes publishing technical 
assistance materials related to expanding procurement strategies, 
recruiting landlords, removing barriers to obtaining housing, 
identifying, and securing mainstream supportive services to help people 
obtain and maintain housing, and other re-housing strategies.
    Additionally, HUD has hosted Office Hours each Friday throughout 
the pandemic along with the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), 
Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and Healthcare for the Homeless. 
During these sessions, along with its purpose of helping communities 
respond to the pandemic and keep people safe from COVID-19, HUD 
highlights resources that are available to communities to help them 
develop re-housing strategies and invites communities to participate 
and share their promising practices. Furthermore, HUD and its partners, 
including the community presenters, answer questions participants have 
on any topics.
    HUD has also mobilized technical assistance providers to 
approximately 50 communities to provide intensive technical assistance 
to support these communities in adopting an accelerated rehousing 
strategy. The focus of this effort is to ensure the communities have 
the best available tools to quickly line up rehousing plans, strategize 
with their partners as well as those affected by homelessness, and 
build stronger, more equitable systems.
    Funding through ARP provided $5 billion for emergency housing 
vouchers that will provide long-term housing subsidies, with housing 
navigation or ongoing wrap-around services, for people exiting 
homelessness. ARP also provided $5 billion for homeless assistance and 
supportive services which, through the HOME program will, among other 
things, add much- needed units to the affordable housing inventory. 
Implementation of these ARP funded programs will be accompanied with 
substantial technical assistance for communities.
    Finally, in the coming weeks HUD, in collaboration with U.S. 
Interagency Council on Homelessness (USICH) and other federal partner 
agencies, will release an initiative that will launch a national effort 
to utilize the new resources provided through the CARES Act and the ARP 
to address homelessness. This initiative will support communities 
through tools, technical assistance, direct regular communication, data 
support, and peer-to-peer learning.

                                 ______
                                 

                Questions Submitted by Senator Jack Reed
    Question. Secretary Fudge, President Biden has requested $30.4 
billion for the Housing Choice Voucher Program and $3.5 billion to 
provide housing and services to individuals and families experiencing 
homelessness. I am leading the Senate letter urging the Subcommittee to 
meet the President's FY22 funding requests for these programs.
    If Congress fully funds the President's requests, can you please 
share with us how these funds will help communities throughout the 
country, especially in Rhode Island?
    Answer. The HCV program is an essential component of the Federal 
housing safety net for people in need. The availability of Housing 
Choice Vouchers represents an opportunity for low- and extremely low-
income families to improve their housing options and pursue greater 
economic opportunities. The HCV program increases access to affordable 
housing, and the option to project-base vouchers aides in the 
preservation of deeply affordable units. The Administration supports a 
strategy that recognizes the HCV program as an essential resource to 
prevent homelessness, promote racial equity, and provide critical funds 
to ensure families pay approximately 30 percent of their income for 
rent.

    The HCV program partners with local PHAs and landlords to provide 
housing to our nation's neediest families. Of the families currently 
receiving HCV assistance:

  --78 percent are extremely low-income, earning below 30 percent of 
        the area median income;

  --75 percent of program participants identify as part of a minority 
        population, 53 percent of those being Black, non-Hispanics;

  --29 percent of households served have an elderly head of household;

  --25 percent have a non-elderly disabled head of household; and

  --36 percent of families served have a female head of household with 
        children.

    Without rental assistance, families in Rhode Island and across the 
country would likely face a great risk of transitory homelessness, or 
be forced to forgo other life necessities, such as food, clothing, and 
medicine.
    The requested funding for FY 2022 renewal levels would maintain 
current services for approximately 2.3 million participating 
households. In Rhode Island, the FY 2022 renewal levels would ensure 
the approximately 10,100 HCV families currently assisted with the HCV 
program will continue to be housed in safe and affordable housing.
    Question. If anything, COVID-19 has proven emphatically the 
importance of housing. Indeed, for many families, their homes have been 
the single most available and effective form of personal protective 
equipment.
    Can you please discuss how affordable and available housing is 
actually an investment that saves taxpayers funds and pays dividends 
throughout our communities?
    Answer. The growing shortage of affordable and available housing 
for huge fractions of the nation's population is part of a vicious 
cycle. The U.S. has long sought to house its people by adding a thin 
safety net to a private market structure, but long-term declines in 
real earning power of disadvantaged households have increasingly 
pressured that policy approach.
    HUD's Worst Case Housing Needs reports to Congress and similar 
reports from independent organizations document that the market is 
incapable of producing and maintaining decent housing that is 
affordable to households with extremely low incomes less than 30 
percent of the median income in their area. When safe, affordable 
housing is not available, financial constraints force families into 
unsafe, semi-affordable alternatives. The importance of safe housing is 
revealed in evaluations that show that a dollar invested in remediation 
of lead paint hazards pays off 17- to 221-fold \1\ and a dollar 
invested in healthy homes pest management and allergen reductions pays 
off 5- to 16-fold.\2\ Research has also shown a clear cost 
effectiveness of investment in supportive housing for people 
experiencing homelessness. A chronically homeless person costs the 
taxpayer an average of $35,578 per year. Costs on average are reduced 
by 49.5% when they are placed in supportive housing. Supportive housing 
costs on average $12,800, making the net savings roughly $4,800 per 
year.\3\ Finally, affordable housing is essential for housing 
stability, and numerous studies have documented how stable housing 
supports stable families, thriving children, and productive adults in 
vibrant communities.\4\ In these ways, public investment in affordable 
and available housing has the long-term effect of reducing future needs 
for such investment, converting the vicious cycle into a virtuous 
cycle.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Gould E., Childhood Lead Poisoning: Conservative Estimates of 
the Social and Economic Benefits of Lead Hazard Control. Env. Health 
Perspectives. 117(7):1162-7 (2009).
    \2\ Nurmagambetov TA et al. Economic Value of Home-Based, Multi-
Trigger, Multicomponent Interventions with an Environmental Focus for 
Reducing Asthma Morbidity: A Community Guide Systematic Review. 
American Journal of Preventive Medicine. 41(2S1): S33- S47. 2011.
    \3\ See https://endhomelessness.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/
Cost-Savings-from-PSH.pdf
    \4\ Sandra J. Newman & C. Scott Holupka (2014): Housing 
Affordability and Child Well-Being, Housing Policy Debate, DOI: 
10.1080/10511482.2014.899261
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Question. In your written testimony, you note that ``HUD is 
resuming its partnership with Treasury's Federal Financing Bank (FFB) 
to provide ``Ginnie-like'' financing for HFA Risk- Sharing loans.'' 
First, when will you resume this partnership?
    Answer. The HUD Risk sharing program and partnership with Treasury 
FFB was signed on August 3, 2021, officially restarting the program 
with state housing finance agencies and removing the original dollar 
cap, enabling expanded opportunity of using this risk sharing program 
to finance more affordable housing supply in more states.HUD is 
temporarily resuming the FFB Initiative with a renewed emphasis on 
enacting legislation to provide a permanent source of lower-cost 
capital through Ginnie Mae securitization. This second phase of the FFB 
initiative will sunset three years after implementation, to give HUD 
adequate time to pursue legislation and transition 542(c) participants 
from FFB financing to Ginnie Mae securitization.
    Question. Second, please explain how this partnership is helpful, 
especially in Rhode Island?
    Answer. Through a network of state and local Housing Finance 
Agencies (HFAs) nationwide, the program provides low-cost financing 
options for the creation and maintenance of multifamily affordable 
housing. In the past, the program was responsible for the creation of 
over 20,000 units of affordable housing nationwide. Rhode Island HMFC 
is an active participant in the FFB Risk Sharing program, financing 15 
loans with over $150 million in loan originations. With FFB commitments 
as recent as FY 2020, we expect Rhode Island to continue their active 
participation.
    Question. Can you please discuss the ongoing importance of the Fair 
Housing Act, and why promoting fair housing is actually good for the 
economy?
    Answer. The Fair Housing Act (the Act) ensures that all home 
seekers have equal access to housing and housing-related products free 
from discriminatory barriers. Where one lives determines access to 
amenities, resources, and opportunities and consequently can create 
disparities in important life outcomes such as health, employment, and 
generational wealth acquisition. The Act guarantees all persons have 
the right to move to areas of their choice to gain access to 
neighborhoods rich in amenities and opportunities. Further, it is 
equally important that we strive to make every neighborhood rich in 
resources and amenities. Enforcement of the Fair Housing Act can 
achieve both objectives, and by doing so has the potential to spur 
economic growth not just within households, but in neighborhoods, 
cities, and regions.
    It is important to note that the Fair Housing Act also has tools 
that allow for greater access to equal credit and homeownership 
opportunities, which contribute to economic growth and generational 
wealth creation and preservation. Among other things, making 
neighborhoods more desirable depends on owners' ability to have equal 
access to credit for buying or refinancing a home. The Department 
utilizes its enforcement authorities and leverages its legacy program 
partners in the Fair Housing Assistance Program (FHAP) and Fair Housing 
Initiatives Program (FHIP) to eliminate discriminatory treatment in 
housing transactions and take proactive steps to educate the industry 
and the public about the importance of fair housing to reduce barriers 
to housing access and choice.
    Discrimination in the housing market reinforces the patterns of 
residential segregation that have been shaped by decades of racially 
biased housing policies. Further, housing discrimination and 
residential segregation impede the ability of African American and 
Hispanic homebuyers to build equity. Homes in primarily African 
American neighborhoods are typically de-valued and priced significantly 
lower than similar homes in predominantly white neighborhoods. Those 
neighborhoods lack key resources such as access to credit and quality 
schools. Racial biases and discriminatory lending practices such as 
redlining, steering, bias in appraisal methods, and racially motivated 
perceptions of neighborhoods are contributors to a lower housing demand 
and prices in African American neighborhoods. The devaluation of 
African American-owned homes negatively impacts the overall economy. 
The promotion of fair housing and the enforcement of the Fair Housing 
Act and other civil rights laws helps to prevent and remedy 
discrimination, foster economic development, and expand wealth in 
minority communities.

                                 ______
                                 

            Questions Submitted to Senator Chris Van Hollen
    Question.The President's FY2022 Budget Request includes $491 
million in funding for a new Mobility Related Social Services program 
to ``assist families in finding housing in higher- opportunity 
neighborhoods with access to jobs, services, schools, and other 
resources.''
    Could you please provide additional information on how many 
households this level of funding would expect to help? What is the 
expected cost per voucher for mobility services given this level of 
funding? Are there additional details on this program that you can 
share?
    Answer. The FY 2022 budget's proposal of $491 million for Housing 
Mobility Services would provide nearly 20 percent of HCV families with 
children with services to help them access a lower poverty community. 
In view of the strong evidence both that low-income families with 
children benefit from living in low-poverty, high-opportunity 
communities, and that mobility programs work, it should be a priority 
to extend such services to more families.
    Using a cost estimate of $3,000 per family offered mobility-related 
services, HUD estimates that about 163,000 families will receive 
services on a voluntary basis. PHAs may provide services to families 
with an existing voucher, regular turnover voucher, or to families that 
receive newly available vouchers in the 2022 appropriations act.
    These new funds will help PHAs implement cost-effective housing 
mobility strategies to expand housing options for families with 
children to move by providing services that will help them move, if 
they want, from areas of high poverty to lower poverty, high 
opportunity communities of their choice. Services provided to 
participating families may include:

  --pre-and post-move coaching

  --housing search assistance

  --family financial assistance such as security deposits

  --landlord incentive payments

  --financial coaching

    These services will also address impediments to PHA collaboration, 
particularly regulatory and administrative barriers, to facilitate 
regional PHA coordination on portability and other issues.
    If funded, HUD will issue a competitive Notice of Funding 
Opportunity and encourage PHAs to apply. HUD will prioritize funding 
awards based on the concentration of HCV families with children in 
extreme poverty neighborhoods. Prior to awarding any new funding 
available for mobility services, HUD also will incorporate available 
lessons learned from the early stages of the HCV Mobility 
Demonstration, the second phase results of the Creating Moves to 
Opportunity (CMTO) study, and existing research evidence and best 
practices on housing mobility programs.
    Under the HCV Mobility Demonstration, our technical assistance 
provider is creating a suite of program guides, materials, and 
trainings (using the best available evidence and best practices) for 
use by participating PHAs. HUD will make this entire suite of guides, 
materials, and trainings available for all PHAs that are awarded new 
funding. We anticipate encouraging PHAs to use the evidence-based 
program model we are using for the demonstration to implement their own 
local programs using the new funding.
    This program, anticipated to be implemented at over 100 PHAs, will 
help improve outcomes for HCV families with children, and help further 
goals of reversing the effects of residential segregation and its 
adverse impacts on people of color, and addressing issues of racial and 
health equity.
    Question. At the May 20th Senate Banking Hearing (``21st Century 
Communities: Expanding Opportunity Through Infrastructure 
Investments''), I discussed with you my bill with Senator Young, the 
Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act (S. 1991), which would 
make 500,000 housing mobility vouchers available over the next five 
years so that more families with young children can move to stable, 
affordable housing in areas of opportunity, with the supportive wrap-
around services they need to succeed, and asked if you could confirm 
whether or not the Biden Administration supported the proposal.
    With the benefit of having had some additional time to review, is 
the Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act a proposal that the 
Biden Administration can support? Or if not, could you please provide 
an explanation of any concerns?
    Answer. The Administration shares the goals and outcomes that S. 
1991, the Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act, seeks to 
achieve. As you know, HUD proposed $491 million for mobility-related 
services in its FY 2022 budget proposal. The set of services envisioned 
in this budget proposal are substantially similar to the set of 
services proposed in the Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act. 
Additionally, HUD proposed an additional 200,000 new housing choice 
vouchers in its FY 2022 budget proposal. While the services and new 
vouchers are not directly tied together in the FY 2022 budget proposal 
as they are in the Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act, HUD 
envisions that some of the mobility-related services funding would be 
used in conjunction with the new vouchers. While there aredifferences 
in the approaches between S. 1991 and HUD's FY 2022 budget proposal, 
there are also many similarities. Our staff would be happy to discuss 
both proposals with you.
    Question. The President's FY2022 Budget Request calls for $225 
million for a new Green and Resilient Retrofit Program that is modeled 
after the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) Green 
Retrofit Program, which successfully rehabilitated nearly 20,000 units 
in over 200 properties, including Brooklyn Homes in Baltimore. While 
ARRA's Green Retrofit program focused exclusively on energy efficiency, 
grants and loans for this program can also be used to address climate 
resilience, for example, by making the HVAC systems in a supported 
property able to continue working during a flood.
    Besides this program improvement, are there other lessons learned 
from the 2009 program that you hope to implement in this program?
    Answer. The 2009 ARRA Green Retrofit Program was widely considered 
successful and effective. HUD learned from that experience that demand 
far exceeded the amount made available. Further, we learned that more 
technical support was needed for some grantees and/or prospective 
applicants. To that end, other than the addition of property resilience 
measures as eligible activities to encourage retrofits that will 
protect life and property against extreme weather events, HUD is also 
requesting funds to support grantee assistance to complete necessary 
due diligence and underwriting efforts.
    Other potential changes based on lessons learned include changes 
focused on ensuring that certain industry standard energy saving 
upgrades take place when green and alternative energy sources are being 
funded through the program. For example, this would entail ensuring any 
property installing solar panels under the Green and Resilient Retrofit 
Program is also replacing light bulbs throughout the property with 
energy efficient LED ones. HUD may consider other potential program 
changes that encourage property owners to apply innovative solutions 
for greening and increasing resilience of multifamily properties 
nationwide.
    Question. The budget says that the program is meant to support 
improvement projects for approximately 15,000 affordable housing units 
at approximately 150 assisted properties nationwide, serving families 
most vulnerable to the effects of climate change. What criteria will 
HUD use to ensure that these grants and loans go to the most vulnerable 
and economically distressed communities?
    Answer. Properties that would be eligible for Green and Resilient 
Retrofit grants or loans are those assisted through Project-Based 
Section 8, Section 202, and Section 811. These programs already ensure 
that the assistance will be provided to properties serving vulnerable 
populations. Historically, the application process was managed on a 
first come, first served basis for those that met prescribed criteria, 
without preference beyond participation in these assistance programs. 
The program will rely upon property owners and the technical support 
HUD will provide to identify the energy retrofit and resilience needs 
at each property and to ensure that owners of all sizes and abilities 
are able to participate. In crafting program requirements, HUD will 
consider how any criteria for participation will impact the applicant 
pool to ensure that properties in distressed communities can fully 
participate.
    Question. The President's FY2022 Budget Request includes $30 
million for a temporary expansion (up to three years) of the Good 
Neighbor Next Door (GNND) program and a new HEAL pilot. The HEAL pilot, 
a new FHA initiative for 2022, will offer new loan products to lower 
barriers to homeownership for potential first-time, first-generation 
homebuyers. These programs will assist FHA in equitably strengthening 
communities by providing affordable housing to people that serve those 
neighborhoods and expanding access to credit.
    Can you tell us a little bit more about what you envision for this 
program? Will it be subsidizing down payments? Lowering interest rates? 
A combination? And how will you determine who a first-generation 
homebuyer is?
    Answer. In proposals for the 2022 budget, the Administration seeks 
to expand the Good Neighbor Next Door program, which is designed to 
help strengthen communities that have experienced significant 
underinvestment and high rates of poverty while also providing 
opportunities for first responders, educators, and those engaged in 
national service to purchase homes in those same communities.
    HUD also proposes a pilot program tentatively titled ``The HEAL'' 
pilot for 2022, which would address barriers to homeownership for 
potential first-time homebuyers. HUD is in the process of defining what 
a first-time, first-generation homebuyer is as well as fleshing out the 
underwriting process.
    Question. The President's FY2022 Budget Request includes $295 
million in targeted CDBG funds to ``advance the Administration's 
priority of redressing the history of the Federal Government 
systematically declining to invest in communities of color and low-
income neighborhoods and preventing residents of those communities from 
access to high quality housing, jobs, public transit, and other 
resources.''
    How will this $295 million be ``targeted'' towards communities with 
a history of federal disinvestment and redlining, like Baltimore? What 
factors will you be looking to in your formula?
    Answer. The additional $295 million in CDBG funds will be allocated 
to grantees that opt-in and commit to use the incentive funds for more 
geographically targeted, potentially transformational activities in a 
specific neighborhood/Census place. HUD is discussing opt-in and 
formula approaches internally and is available to discuss the approach. 
Because allocation amounts to each participating grantee will depend on 
which and how many grantees opt-in, no formula runs are feasible in 
advance of the opt-in period.
    The areas to be targeted may include neighborhoods with at least 20 
percent poverty, areas of persistent poverty, low- and moderate-income 
areas of minority concentration, brownfields, certain designated slums 
and blighted areas, Neighborhood Revitalization Strategy Areas, income-
qualified areas most impacted by a major disaster, and Opportunity 
Zones. These are small geographical areas where investments can make a 
significant difference. Even if a majority of CDBG grantees opt-in and 
the per-project award is relatively low, grantees would still be able 
to undertake planning and pre-development activities, and could seed 
small business lending, which could help attract partners and 
additional financial leverage. Grantees can also supplement the awards 
with formula CDBG funds.
    Eligible activities include CDBG activities related to construction 
and reconstruction of public facilities and improvements, special 
economic development to small businesses or local entrepreneurs, 
acquisition and disposition of real property, and rehabilitation of 
housing and other structures. The CDBG incentive funds could also be 
used for planning activities to align codes, more modern zoning, 
master/comprehensive/area-wide plans, and expediting permitting to 
direct and support reinvestment of public and private funds into one or 
more historically underfunded areas.
    The benefit of this incentive will exceed the reach of the funding: 
by providing multiple examples of targeted investment in a smaller 
range of activity types, it will enable HUD to evaluate and understand 
what investments drive revitalization. Participating grantees can use 
these results to influence investment decisions for their CDBG and 
local funds. HUD will share successful models nationally, with the 
expectation of advancing local community development practice across 
the entire CDBG portfolio.
    Question. Some 144,000 Maryland households are estimated to be 
currently behind on rent, according to the National Equity Atlas. Of 
those households, an estimated 82% are people of color. The President's 
FY2022 Budget Request calls for $20 million for an eviction-prevention 
program that would extend ``legal services'' to between 10,000 to 
40,000 renters. Last Congress, Senators Hassan, Kaine, and I introduced 
the Prevent Evictions Act, which would create a landlord-tenant 
mediation grant program to bring landlords and tenants to the table to 
find informal, mutually agreed upon solutions that keep tenants in 
their homes and avoid time- consuming and costly litigation. Legal 
representation in eviction proceedings is very important, but so is 
trying to find solutions before a tenant is forced to go to court.
    Will some of the funding in your eviction-prevention program go 
towards mediation services, so tenants and landlords can find solutions 
before it gets to the legal stage?
    Answer. HUD anticipates that the FY 2022 grant, if enacted, would 
build on the Eviction Protection Grant Program funded by the 
Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021, Division L, Title II--HUD 
Appropriations Act, 2021 (Pub. L. No. 116-260, approved December 27, 
2020). HUD anticipates making awards for the FY 2021 program in 
November 2021. The FY 2021 grant includes alternative dispute 
resolution as an eligible activity. Alternative dispute resolution 
would include mediation activities undertaken to avoid litigation. Both 
tenants who are at risk of eviction and those who are subject to 
eviction are eligible for these services.
    Though HUD does not require grantees provide mediation services, 
applicants are rated on the soundness, quality, and effectiveness of 
their proposed work plan. For example, grant applicants are required to 
identify their program strategy from pre-eviction through post-eviction 
and explain how their proposed mix of services is expected to meet the 
needs of their target service area. Selected grantees will also be 
required to report services provided and outcomes associated with those 
services.

                                 ______
                                 

            Questions Submitted by Senator Patrick J. Leahy
    Question. We know that only 1 in 4 families who are eligible for 
Section 8 vouchers receive them because of funding constraints, so 
additional funding for rental assistance certainly would benefit 
families across this country. However, in Vermont, and I suspect this 
is the case in many other places, having a voucher in hand does not 
mean that a family is housed. The scarcity and cost of available 
apartments poses a major barrier to housing voucher holders.
    How will HUD use the additional funding requested to better align 
its housing production, housing subsidy and housing services programs 
to house vulnerable Vermonters?
    Answer. HUD recognizes that the scarcity and cost of available 
rental units can be a major challenge to the overall success of the 
housing voucher program. The HCV program has an existing component that 
PHAs can use to address the lack of rental housing in the community--
project-based voucher assistance. A PHA may use up to 20 percent of its 
vouchers for project-basing, which can be used to support new 
construction and rehabilitation as well as to place existing units 
under long-term contracts to preserve them as an affordable housing 
resource in the community. The additional resources HUD is requesting 
for the HCV program may be used by some PHAs to help increase the 
supply of affordable housing units in their jurisdictions.
    HUD also seeks to increase the production of affordable housing in 
communities through its proposed funding for the HOME program. The 
$1.85 billion invested in HOME would allow communities to increase the 
production of, and access to, affordable housing. HUD estimates that 
the requested funding for HOME would produce 35,000 units of affordable 
housing, both homeownership and rental units.
    A vital stakeholder and partner in the HCV program is the 
participating owner. HUD established the HCV Landlord Task Force in 
2018 to hold convening sessions with rental owners throughout the 
country to explore barriers to participation and develop strategies and 
tools to alleviate those barriers. We are in the process of 
implementing numerous recommendations of the task force, including 
providing resources specifically for landlords participating or 
interested in participating in the HCV program and developing a 
guidebook for PHAs on best practices to recruit and retain landlords.
    Finally, HUD recognizes the need to provide PHAs with the resources 
necessary to increase voucher success rates through housing search 
assistance and robust landlord recruitment and retention efforts. The 
FY 2022 budget request provides $2.8 billion in administrative fees for 
the HCV program, which would fully fund administrative fees in the HCV 
program for the first time in many years. While prior years have funded 
the administrative fees at roughly 80 percent, HUD believes that the 
full funding the administrative fees is critical to support additional 
leasing and improve voucher success rates in Vermont and across the 
country.
    Question. During this period of sharply increased housing costs, 
how will HUD ensure that the fair market rent standards for Housing 
Choice Vouchers are accurate, especially in small rental markets where 
the data used to determine the FMR tend to lag what is happening on the 
ground?
    Answer. HUD has three main strategies to address rapidly increasing 
rents, with the ultimate aim of enabling HCV families to better locate 
and rent suitable units. The first strategy is to encourage PHAs to 
take advantage of the range of existing regulatory flexibilities to 
better align their payment standards to market rents, including 
utilization of exception and success rate payment standards.

    Second, HUD assists PHAs working through local challenges in 
several ways:

  --HUD has made technical assistance available to support PHAs in 
        achieving high utilization in high-cost markets.

  --For the new Emergency Housing Voucher (EHV) program, HUD has 
        established an alternative requirement permitting PHAs to 
        establish separate higher payment standards for EHVs. Through 
        the alternative requirement, PHAs may establish a payment 
        standard for the EHV program up to 120% of the applicable FMR/
        SAFMR. More than 600 PHAs across 55 states and Territories 
        received an EHV allocation. Many of these PHAs serve high-cost 
        urban and rural markets.

    Finally, HUD has three grant-funded studies underway looking at 
methodologies to improve FMR estimates in markets with rapidly rising 
rents. The researchers are examining use of private sector data 
sources, web-scraping of rental advertisements, and machine-learning 
and Artificial Intelligence (AI)-based forecasting as alternatives to 
the current approach to calculating FMRs. One tension HUD will face in 
implementing many of the techniques identified by the research 
underway, should they prove to be more accurate, will be loss of the 
transparency Congress and the public have come to expect in being able 
to review the data and calculations behind every FMR.
    HUD has received criticism in the past that PHAs generally do not 
have the resources necessary to conduct rent studies to re-evaluate 
HUD's FMR calculations. These studies do use PHA resources, and many 
PHAs' resources are already stretched thin. Congress could provide 
dedicated funding to PHAs to cover a portion of the local FMR surveys 
costs. There could be something like PD&R's Research Partnerships 
program where HUD splits the survey cost with a PHA. If the Committee 
would like to do more to support PHAs in conducting rent studies, HUD 
is happy to engage.
    Question. In rural states like Vermont, homeownership is a vital 
source of affordable housing. However, the dream of homeownership is 
now out of reach for too many Vermont families because of the surge in 
home prices. In Vermont, the median sales price of a home has increased 
25 percent in the last year, and that increase shows no sign of 
slowing. Vermont prides itself on its high level of homeownership and 
has had past success in creating pathways to affordable homeownership 
through shared-equity and down payment assistance programs.How can HUD 
ensure that people in Vermont, and across the country, can continue to 
achieve the American dream of becoming homeowners even if they are not 
wealthy, despite the dramatic housing market pressures the country is 
experiencing?
    Answer. HUD programs have consistently been designed to help low- 
to moderate-income and first-time homebuyers become homeowners. Through 
the Mutual
    Mortgage Insurance Fund (MMIF), FHA programs offer minimal down 
payment and flexible credit requirements. FHA continuously monitors its 
portfolio and market trends, adjusting its requirements as needed to 
ensure that the borrowers FHA was designed to serve continue to have 
access to affordable credit while simultaneously ensuring the MMIF 
remains stable.
    A new FHA initiative for 2022, the Home Equity Accelerator Loan 
(HEAL), will offer new loan products to lower barriers to homeownership 
for potential first-time, low-wealth, and/or first-generation 
homebuyers.
    At HUD, in addition to the extensive FHA Single Family Program, we 
have other opportunities for renters-including families in HUD rental-
assisted housing-to move to home purchase, through resources in our 
public housing and voucher programs.
    The Housing Choice Voucher (HCV) homeownership program, authorized 
under Section 8(y) of the 1937 Act, allows HCV program participants to 
use their voucher as monthly assistance toward meeting homeownership 
expenses.\5\ To participate in the HCV homeownership program, the HCV 
family must meet specific income and employment requirements, be a 
first- time homeowner as defined in the regulation, attend and 
satisfactorily complete the pre- assistance homeownership and housing 
counseling program required by the PHA, and meet any additional 
eligibility requirements set by the PHA. There is a maximum term of 
homeownership assistance of 10 years, or 15 years if the initial 
mortgage has a term of 20 years or more.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ While the HCV homeownership regulations contemplate a down 
payment grant option (where the PHA offers a single down payment 
assistance grant to the family instead of a monthly homeownership 
subsidy), funding has not been appropriated for this purpose and this 
regulatory provision has never been implemented.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are similar homeownership opportunities in the public housing 
program. Section 32 of the 1937 Act offers PHAs a flexible way to sell 
public housing units to low-income families, with preference given to 
current residents of the unit(s) being sold. The program helps low-
income families purchase homes through an arrangement that benefits 
both the buyer and the public housing agency that sells the unit: it 
gives the buyer access to an affordable homeownership opportunity and 
to the many tangible and intangible advantages it brings, while 
permitting PHAs to sell individual units and developments that may, due 
to their location or configuration, be more suitable for homeownership 
than for rental housing. In addition, PHAs have the flexibility to use 
public housing Capital Funds for home purchase assistance for first- 
time, income-eligible homebuyers in the form of secondary financing 
(down payment, closing costs assistance, and second mortgages).
    While these tools to facilitate homeownership for income-qualified 
families exist within our public housing and voucher programs, most 
PHAs are unable to make extensive use of these flexibilities. This is 
simply because the shortage of affordable rental units is equally or 
even more acute than are opportunities for homeownership, and it is 
only in very limited circumstances that PHAs find it appropriate to 
divert their limited voucher and public housing resources from rental 
to homebuyer assistance. Fuller support from the Congress for HUD's 
core programs would significantly expand our ability to foster first-
time homebuyer programs for citizens of modest means nationwide.
    HUD is also engaged with helping communities add to the supply of 
housing by suggesting regulatory reforms and encouraging the adoption 
of new housing production technologies to reduce the cost of new 
housing and speed up the supply response.
    Question. Vermont has used its state and local relief money from 
the CARES Act and the American Rescue Plan to support housing 
construction to ensure that Vermonters who are struggling to find 
affordable housing, including over 2,700 Vermonters currently being 
sheltered in hotels to prevent homelessness. Vermont has a strong 
history of building mixed income housing in areas of opportunity. 
However, recent Treasury guidance on spending state and local relief 
money does not offer clear guidance for whether this funding can be 
used to construct affordable housing in areas of opportunity, leading 
to confusion among Vermont affordable housing groups. The guidance 
states that ``Treasury will presume that certain types of services are 
eligible uses when provided in a Qualified Census Tract (QCT), to 
families living in QCTs, or when these services are provided by Tribal 
governments. Recipients may also provide these services to other 
populations, households, or geographic areas disproportionately 
impacted by the pandemic. In identifying these disproportionately-
impacted communities, recipients should be able to support their 
determination for how the pandemic disproportionately impacted the 
populations, households, or geographic areas to be served.'' I 
understand that HUD was involved in the creation of guidance with the 
Treasury Department as the guidance relates to housing issues.
    By not explicitly allowing affordable housing construction outside 
of low- income areas (QCTs), does the Treasury guidance undermine long-
standing housing best practices of ensuring that affordable housing is 
located in a range of locations, offering economic opportunity for 
residents?
    Answer. HUD understands the concern. HUD is trying to find ways to 
promote the development of affordable housing in opportunity areas and 
would welcome further discussion with Treasury if there are 
opportunities to provide supplemental guidance. It is important 
however, for federal resources to be directed to disadvantaged 
communities to help address the disproportionate housing needs in these 
communities. One way to do that is targeting assistance to Qualifying 
Census Tracts (QCTs). Targeting assistance to areas predominantly 
inhabited by low-income households can also speed the delivery of funds 
to eligible populations while reducing the burdens of proving 
individual eligibility through income documentation.
    The COVID relief money for housing programs was required by 
Congress to be targeted to people and places disproportionately 
affected by the pandemic. Because disproportionate shares of lower 
income people lost jobs during the pandemic, HUD advised Treasury that 
targeting relief money to low-income areas was highly likely to 
coincide with the disproportionately affected populations. Vermont can 
target these funds to opportunity areas if they can also show that many 
people adversely affected by the pandemic live there, or that the 
housing is being built for pandemic-affected people to move to. This is 
a higher bar than the ``safe-harbor'' of targeting funds to low-income 
areas in Treasury's guidance but is in keeping with Congress' intent 
when appropriating the funds.
    Question. How will HUD use its requested resources to support 
building housing that offers not only shelter, but also opportunity, to 
American families?
    Answer. HUD's resources directed toward producing affordable 
housing in the 2022 budget include direct investment in new home 
construction in the Section 202 and 811 Capital Advance programs and in 
the HOME program. Households burdened with high housing costs for 
themselves, and supported family members often sacrifice spending on 
other critical expenses such as food, healthcare, and transportation, 
potentially impacting their health outcomes and access to job and 
educational opportunities. Providing deeply affordable housing promotes 
economic stability by giving residents and their families the 
opportunity to use household resources for other purposes such as 
education, childcare, nutrition, healthcare, transportation, and 
savings.
    The Budget invests $100 million in new affordable housing for very 
low-income older adults (Section 202) and $80 million for very low- and 
extremely low-income persons with disabilities (Section 811). Section 
202 properties provide residents connections to services through the 
service coordinator program, using a person-centered approach to 
helping residents access the resources they need to live longer, 
healthier lives in independent housing settings.
    Section 811 properties provide residents accessible housing and 
supportive services often required to live independently in the 
community with connections to critical supportive services, as an 
alternative to costly institutional care. Because Section 202 and 
Section 811 are place- based investments, they provide opportunities 
for the Department to engage with communities where they are located 
and foster connections between initiatives and programs at the local 
level.
    HUD's FY 2022 budget also requests $1.85 billion for the HOME 
Program. Through HOME, HUD provides funding to State and local 
governments to develop affordable rental and homeownership housing. 
Because these funds can be used anywhere within a jurisdiction, States 
and local governments can use HOME funding to construct affordable 
housing in areas with higher incomes and greater opportunity.

                                 ______
                                 

              Questions Submitted by Senator John Boozman
    Question. As you know, the American dream of homeownership remains 
a pillar of our economy. While home prices in urban and suburban 
communities have increased, affordable, lower-cost properties still 
exist, particularly in America's rural communities. However, there 
still remain challenges to financing these rural properties.
    In your view, what are some existing regulatory barriers that you 
see to both large and small dollar rural home financing, and what does 
the agency plan on doing to address those barriers?
    Answer. Affordable homeownership opportunities do remain available 
in markets around the country, and this is especially true for 
America's rural areas. However, barriers to accessing affordable 
financing and down payment assistance persist. HUD has several tools 
that can be used to address homeownership barriers that even low-cost 
communities face and has plans underway. The Federal Housing 
Administration's (FHA) mortgage insurance program is looking at ways to 
make small dollar mortgages more accessible, and at improving the Title 
I insurance program for manufactured housing financing. In addition, 
the FY 2022 Budget has requested a set-aside in the HOME Investment 
Partnership program for a new home buyer assistance grant program to 
direct funds specifically to jurisdictions in support of making the 
dream of homeownership more accessible in America's rural and urban 
communities.
    Question. Given the current housing market and rising home prices, 
some buyers who rely on government-insured loans like FHA are being 
disadvantaged, especially in many of our rural communities. Some of 
this is from extra requirements on appraisals or inspections, or 
arbitrary regulatory rules that prohibit FHA loans on homes held under 
90 days.
    Is HUD looking at ways to make these programs work better for low-
down payment/first time buyers?
    Answer. Yes, HUD and the FHA team are continuously reviewing 
opportunities for streamlining and efficiency of our programs. We are 
acutely aware of the issues you raise, and how the current real estate 
market, with its low supply, is creating competitive pressures that 
make use of government insured programs like FHA more difficult for 
consumers to access. FHA has reviewed its strategic roadmap and has 
been addressing a number of items that pose barriers to potential 
homebuyers, especially for low and moderate-income first-time home 
buyers.
    A recent example is the policy changes that FHA has made to its 
student loan debt calculation. This change aligns FHA underwriting for 
borrowers with student debt with other government agencies and opens up 
access to credit for many who would have previously been denied an FHA 
mortgage due to the way that debt was calculated into the underwriting 
decision. HUD is also taking on issues related to appraisal industry 
and misevaluation of properties driven by bias. An interagency task 
force has been formed, led by HUD Secretary Fudge and is attacking this 
head on with a set of recommendations and report expected in January.
    The FHA team has taken many steps, particularly in light of the 
COVID-19 pandemic, to be proactive and ensure that inspection 
requirements and appraisal requirements meet the needs of communities--
especially those that are harder to reach, like rural--and has put in 
place numerous waivers and flexibilities for lenders and servicers 
during this time.
    Question. The current rise in home prices can present a challenge 
to prospective buyers facing difficulties qualifying for a mortgage or 
saving for a down payment, particularly in rural communities. FHA-
backed products in limited markets such as own-option mortgages, leases 
with a purchase option, and others have shown promise in increasing 
affordable homeownership. However, I'm concerned that unnecessary 
regulatory burdens may limit the ability of these types of products to 
expand into rural households and communities. Housing agencies have a 
responsibility to ensure that regulatory requirements are not 
unnecessarily limiting or delaying the ability of products aimed at 
increasing affordable, sustainable homeownership to broaden into new 
markets.
    Can you commit to looking into what actions your agency can take to 
ensure that overly burdensome regulatory requirements are not limiting 
the ability of these types of products to expand into new markets, 
especially into rural households and communities?
    Answer. FHA continuously monitors market trends and will look at 
ways it can work in harmony with alternative financing arrangements 
that show effective means toward attaining affordable homeownership. 
HUD's Office of Policy Development and Research (PD&R) maintains 
current information on housing needs, market conditions, and existing 
programs and conducts research on priority housing and community 
development issues. PD&R provides reliable and objective data and 
analysis to help inform FHA decisions. See examples of PD&R's recent 
reports here:

1. National Comprehensive Market Analysis (As of January 1, 2021): 
        https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pdf/National-CHMA-
        21.pdf

2. US Housing Market Conditions, Comprehensive Housing Market Analyses: 
        https://www.huduser.gov/portal/ushmc/chma_archive.html

3. National Housing Market Summary: https://www.huduser.gov/portal/
        ushmc/quarterly_commentary.html

                                 ______
                                 

          Questions Submitted by Senator Shelley Moore Capito
    Question. As you know, the Biden Administration extended the 
forbearance period through September 30, 2021, and the foreclosure 
moratorium through June 30th. An estimated 6.5 million home-loan 
borrowers have missed at least one payment since March 2020. Since the 
forbearance moratorium was implemented, West Virginia has seen a 
dramatic increase in serious delinquent loans--those falling in the 120 
day and greater category. While a well-intended temporary solution, I 
am very concerned at the unintended consequence this action and its 
subsequent extension will have on homeowners in my state.
    Many housing stakeholders in my State believe that while they will 
be able to provide loan modifications to some, there will be many who 
never recover. What actions and resources has HUD taken and devoted to 
addressing this serious issue?
    Answer. HUD has taken significant steps and has devoted many 
resources to acting to ensure all protections are in place that will 
help people keep their homes and avoid foreclosure. HUD has worked in 
coordination with the White House, and all government agencies who back 
mortgage loans to address delinquent borrowers swiftly through 
forbearance and new foreclosure avoidance programs which have been 
announced. Our priority is helping as many families as we can get on a 
road to recovery and move to stability and affordability in their 
housing.
    On June 25, 2021, Federal Housing Administration (FHA) announced 
more measures to help homeowners with FHA-insured mortgages who are 
struggling financially due to the COVID-19 pandemic. These measures 
will provide additional, immediate relief while also expanding outreach 
and home retention options for struggling homeowners who are 
disproportionately people of color. These measures include the 
extension of the forbearance period until September 30, 2021, but HUD 
has included additional foreclosure alternatives to avoid the 
unintended consequences mentioned.
                   covid-19 advance loan modification
    FHA introduced a new home retention option, the COVID-19 Advance 
Loan Modification (COVID-19 ALM). The COVID-19 ALM will offer 
significant payment relief to eligible homeowners.
    The COVID-19 ALM will be offered to borrowers who are 90 or more 
days delinquent or at the end of their COVID-19 Forbearance. This new 
home retention option is for those homeowners whom a 30-year rate and 
term mortgage modification will bring the mortgage current and will 
reduce the Principal and Interest portion of their monthly mortgage 
principal and interest payment by at least 25 percent.
    Another key step for delinquent borrowers is the simplification of 
the FHA loss mitigation waterfall and introduction of the COVID 
Recovery loan modification that FHA announced on July 23, 2021.
    The new FHA COVID-19 Recovery waterfall streamlines and revises 
FHA's previous options for struggling homeowners, reduces required 
documentation, and allows mortgage servicers to provide greater payment 
reduction for eligible homeowners with FHA-insured
    Single Family Title II forward mortgages. The simple two-step 
waterfall options intended for properties that are occupied as the 
homeowner's primary residence are:

1. COVID-19 Recovery Standalone Partial Claim: for homeowners who can 
        resume making their current mortgage payments, the COVID-19 
        Recovery Standalone Partial Claim allows mortgage payment 
        arrearages to be placed in a zero-interest subordinate lien 
        against the property that is repaid when the mortgage 
        terminates, usually when the homeowner refinances or sells the 
        home.

2. COVID-19 Recovery Modification: for homeowners who cannot satisfy 
        the COVID-19 Recovery Standalone Partial Claim requirements, 
        the COVID-19 Recovery Modification extends the term of the 
        mortgage to 360 months at a fixed rate and targets reducing the 
        borrower's monthly principal and interest portion of their 
        monthly mortgage payment. The COVID-19 Recovery Modification 
        must include a Partial Claim if the homeowner has Partial Claim 
        funds available.

    FHA has also taken steps to ensure protections for seniors who are 
part of the reverse mortgage program.
          home equity conversion mortgage covid-19 extensions
    To assist seniors with Home Equity Conversion (reverse) Mortgages 
(HECMs) who have been negatively affected by COVID-19, FHA extended the 
ability for these homeowners to request an extension before the 
servicer may request the loan be called due and payable. For extension 
requests received between July 1, 2021, and September 30, 2021, 
servicers must grant homeowners an extension of up to six months.
    For HECM homeowners with loans that have already been called due 
and payable, servicers must approve homeowner requests for an extension 
for any deadline related to foreclosure and claim submission of up to 
six months when the request is received between July 1, 2021, and 
September 30, 2021.
    For all HECMs that received an extension between July 1, 2020, and 
September 30, 2020, FHA is providing one additional three-month 
extension period if needed, when the homeowner requests this extension 
from their mortgage servicer.
    Question. Another matter we continue to receive outreach on is the 
inability to quickly distribute federal dollars to renters and tenants 
who are desperate to receive them. While I understand that Treasury is 
responsible for overseeing the distribution of these funds, I am 
concerns that with the amounts allocated through the CARES Act and the 
American Rescue Plan on top of the Administration's significant 
increase in the amount requested for HUD, I am concerned that we are 
completely overwhelming our States and localities with money that they 
simply do not have the capacity in place to get out the door. Can you 
comment on this?
    Answer. We agree that many CDBG and HOME grantees are addressing 
historic levels of need with historic levels of funding. Some are 
struggling currently, but most seem to be steadily prioritizing, 
scaling up, and successfully implementing. HUD's experience with 
disaster recovery and Neighborhood Stabilization Program (NSP) funding 
is that this apparent pause as grantees design programs and execute 
contracts and inform citizens will give way to rapid action in most 
communities. These funding sources provide substantial administrative 
resources for grantees to hire or contract the additional expertise 
necessary to implement the activities for which the funds are 
appropriated. In addition, HUD is implementing a robust technical 
assistance effort to support the CARES and ARP funds and coordinating 
closely with the Department of Treasury to support and improve 
community capacity, with special attention to sharing best practices.
    Question. Earlier this year, the Office of Management and Budget 
released a proposed rule that would double the definition of a 
metropolitan statistical area from a population of 50,000 in an urban 
core to 100,000. This change would lead to over 140 communities to lose 
out on billions of dollars in grants, including Community Development 
Block Grants through HUD that have been invaluable to my home state of 
West Virginia. I joined 24 of my Senate colleagues in sending a 
bipartisan letter to OMB opposing this change.
    According to recent news reports, OMB is planning to move forward 
on this regulation despite receiving over 800 comments from affected 
communities that are opposed to this change. As a largely rural state 
with few urban centers, this change would force West Virginia 
communities that have long relied on HUD and other agency grants to 
potentially seek alternative funding, which is unrealistic in a poor 
state such as West Virginia.
    Should OMB finalize this rule, how will you commit to ensuring that 
HUD continues to serve communities that do not meet these overly 
stringent definitions of ``urban?''
    Answer. On July 13, 2021, OMB announced that the technical advisory 
committee of interagency experts, the Metropolitan and Micropolitan 
Statistical Area Standards Review Committee, after the public comment 
period, submitted a revised recommendation to leave the current 
Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSA) core population threshold in 
place. Consistent with the Standards Review Committee's revised 
recommendation, OMB's 2020 Standards will maintain the MSA threshold of 
50,000. Recognizing the committee's concern that MSA thresholds have 
not kept pace with population growth, OMB will work with the Standards 
Review Committee to conduct research and stakeholder outreach to inform 
the 2030 standards update.
    HUD remains committed to serving all communities, and its State 
CDBG program serves smaller urban and rural communities. The State CDBG 
program represents 30% of the annual CDBG appropriation and is one of 
the largest grant programs directed to rural jurisdictions to meet 
their community development and affordable housing needs. In the State 
CDBG program, states pass almost all funding through in subgrants to 
about 2,500 less urban or rural jurisdictions a year. Although the full 
range of CDBG eligible activities is available, the majority of the 
funding is used for public facilities and improvements, such as water/
sewer systems.
    Question. How will HUD continue to invest in struggling communities 
such as those in West Virginia that are often left fighting for a tiny 
piece of the pie in terms of federal grants?
    Answer. One way HUD will continue to serve smaller urban and rural 
communities, such as those in West Virginia, is through the CDBG 
program. The CDBG program provides grants directly to larger cities and 
urban counties through the entitlement program and serves non-
entitlement communities through the State CBDG program. The State CDBG 
program represents 30% of the annual CDBG appropriation, or about $1 
billion per year, and is one of the largest grant programs directed to 
rural jurisdictions to meet their community development and affordable 
housing needs, primarily for the benefit of low- and moderate- income 
families. In the State CDBG program, the states pass almost all funding 
through in subgrants to non-entitlement communities. States may use a 
portion of the funding to provide technical assistance and help 
localities apply for and use the funding. Although the full range of 
CDBG eligible activities is available, most of the funding is used for 
public facilities and improvements, such as water/sewer systems.
    Similarly, the Rural Capacity Building Program (RCB) enhances the 
capacity and ability of local governments, Indian tribes, rural housing 
development organizations (RHDOs), rural Community Development 
Corporations (CDCs), rural Community Housing Development Organizations 
(CHDOs) to carry out community development and affordable housing 
activities that benefit low- and moderate-income families and persons 
in rural areas. The RCB program provides much needed funds that assist 
small, rural communities such as those in West Virginia and beyond. For 
example, RCB funds assist the International Sonoran Desert Alliance 
(ISDA) located in rural Arizona, which is a 501(c)3 organization that 
designs and implements environmental, cultural, real estate and 
business development projects intended to preserve and enrich the 
environment, culture, and economy of the Sonoran Desert. ISDA is a sub-
awardee of RCB funds that was awarded $15,000 to support organization 
operations. ISDA operates a social enterprise Inn and Conference Center 
that the organization utilizes as a business incubator and job training 
site. Because of decreased activity caused by the pandemic, revenue has 
decreased by 70%. ISDA expects to lose $150,000 in revenue due to the 
pandemic. ISDA also experienced revenue loss at a historic plaza it 
operates with mixed use commercial tenants. Due to businesses 
shuttering, ISDA has projected a loss of $40,000 in rental income. 
Despite facing significant organizational challenges, ISDA continues to 
offer emergency utility assistance, help stakeholders in accessing 
SNAPs benefits, rental assistance, and conducting minor home repair and 
appliance replacement. ISDA has also provided mobile hotspots and 
laptops that allow clients to continue engaging in virtual small 
business development programming. RCB funds continue to support this 
kind of dynamic organization, building capacity across fragile 
communities.

                          SUBCOMMITTEE RECESS

    Secretary Fudge. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. [Whereupon, at 10:44 a.m., Thursday, June 
10, the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene at a time 
subject to the call of the Chair.]


  TRANSPORTATION, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES 
                  APPROPRIATIONS FOR FISCAL YEAR 2022

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 16, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
           Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met at 2:32 p.m., in room SD-192, Dirksen 
Senate Office Building, Hon. Brian Schatz (chairman) presiding.
    Present: Senators Schatz, Reed, Murray, Coons, Van Hollen, 
Collins, Boozman, Hoeven, Kennedy, and Braun.

                      DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

STATEMENT OF HON. PETE BUTTIGIEG, SECRETARY

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BRIAN SCHATZ

    Senator Schatz. This hearing will come to order.
    Good afternoon and welcome. Secretary Buttigieg, I'm really 
pleased and honored to have you before this subcommittee to 
testify on the President's Budget Request for the Department of 
Transportation for fiscal year 2022.
    I look forward to discussing the President's vision and how 
this budget request, along with the American Jobs Plan, will 
help to improve the safety and efficiency of our transportation 
networks.
    It is a challenging time to plan ahead for DOT with a 
reauthorization bill on deck, an overall budget agreement 
outstanding, an American Jobs Plan under negotiations, the 
impact of COVID still wreaking havoc on transportation 
revenues, and Highway Trust Fund issues.
    Now that we have the President's budget proposal, it's time 
to get to work. It's not like the condition of our 
transportation infrastructure is a secret. We all know that the 
state of good repair needs in every single mode are in the 
billions of dollars.
    Highways and bridges have a $786 billion backlog, transit a 
$105 billion in deferred maintenance, and Amtrak needs $42 
billion for the Northeast Corridor alone, and that's just the 
cost to address our current infrastructure deficit. That does 
not protect our roads, rail, and airports from rising sea 
levels and increasing flood risks. We must admit that 
resilience is not a luxury. We cannot adapt to the effects of 
climate change by nickeling and diming it.
    I agree with the Secretary that it is time for bold action. 
While it may be hard to come up with the revenues, it is 
nowhere near the hardship that we will face if we don't invest 
now.
    I look forward to working with Ranking Member Collins to 
pull together a bipartisan bill this year. We share the same 
commitment to improving safety, rebuilding our transportation 
infrastructure, and providing opportunities for the 
transportation workforce.
    The President's $88 billion budget request for the 
Department of Transportation builds on many of these same 
objectives and themes. The budget prioritizes safety by 
increasing funding for FAA Safety Office and NHTSA's Vehicle 
Safety Programs, both important to address weaknesses in our 
certifications systems and the alarming rise in traffic 
fatalities.
    I'm glad to see that climate change initiatives are a focus 
across the department because resiliency needs to be a key part 
of any infrastructure program.
    I'm also glad to see that the budget continues to invest in 
our transportation workforce. It funds the Aviation Workforce 
Development Program. It provides resources to help transit 
systems adapt to electric vehicle fleets. It fully funds the 
Fifth Maritime Training Vessel to educate our maritime 
workforce.
    The focus on these priorities demonstrates the commitment 
to addressing the workforce challenges across the 
transportation industry that I fully support.
    I see a lot of good things in this budget request, but I'm 
concerned about the lack of funding for Amtrak and the 
potential impact to the workforce. The budget request will not 
have enough to prevent furloughs and sustain services if we 
don't have additional resources through a surface 
reauthorization or the American Jobs Plan.
    The same can be said with the elimination of popular 
programs for airports and bridges. The Jobs Plan and surface 
reauthorization have the potential to deliver historic 
investments in infrastructure in every state.
    It's important to know where things stand as we start to 
mark up the THUD appropriations bill. If these negotiations 
drag on, it will be incumbent on Congress to extend the FAST 
Act as it expires on September 30th, as well as to make sure 
the Highway Trust Fund remains solvent.
    Secretary Buttigieg, I look forward to hearing your 
testimony on the budget request. Your leadership at the 
department is just what we need to focus on the future and the 
challenges ahead.
    Most people take transportation for granted until something 
goes wrong. We saw this with the Colonial Pipeline incident. 
We've seen it when roads get flooded or a bridge has to be shut 
down and people don't have a way to get home. I really think 
the way that you're speaking and leading on these issues is a 
refreshing change.
    With that, I'd like to turn it over to Vice Chair Collins 
for her opening statement.

                 STATEMENT OF SENATOR SUSAN M. COLLINS

    Senator Collins. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Buttigieg, I'm delighted to join the Chairman in 
welcoming you to your first hearing before our subcommittee.
    As part of the fiscal year 2021 Omnibus, we provided $87 
billion for the Department of Transportation, excluding 
emergency funding. This funding supports our nation's 
infrastructure through important programs, including highway 
funding, BUILD grants, now called RAISE grants, the Airport 
Improvement Program, Port Infrastructure Development Grants, 
and much more.
    As we begin our work on fiscal year 2022, it is important 
to note that unlike previous years, there is not yet a budget 
agreement in place. Top line funding levels remain to be 
determined.
    The Administration's fiscal year 2022 request for DOT is 88 
billion. Of this amount, the request includes 25.7 billion in 
discretionary resources, an increase of 411 million above 
current levels.
    The Administration's budget request is in addition to its 
infrastructure plan. As described in the budget, the American 
Jobs Plan proposes nearly 2.3 trillion in new investment, 
including 621 billion for transportation and resiliency 
programs.
    Under the plan, the department would oversee 540 billion in 
transportation-related investments and 7.5 billion for 
resiliency.
    This proposal, as well as the Administration's fiscal year 
2022 budget request, would be on top of the supplemental 
funding provided by the CARES Act, the December COVID bill, and 
the American Rescue Plan.
    I have long supported a robust infrastructure investment in 
this country and I worked hard with our former Ranking Member, 
Senator Jack Reed, to increase funding for many programs.
    The Administration's Infrastructure Plan, however, 
represents trillions in new spending and seems to be a vehicle 
for major unrelated policy changes rather than an effort to 
modernize and rebuild our physical and digital infrastructure.
    That's why I've been working hard with the bipartisan group 
of Senators to develop a proposal that does focus on the 
critical physical and digital infrastructure investments that 
our nation needs.
    Although I'm concerned about the overall level of spending 
being proposed by this Administration, I want to take a moment 
to discuss the areas of shared interest.
    I'm pleased to see the inclusion of the popular RAISE Grant 
Program, formerly called BUILD, before that was called TIGER, 
in the Administration's request. I've championed this program 
since 2009 as well as the INFRA Grants, which are focused on 
freight corridors.
    Our state departments of transportation rely on these two 
programs to fund much-needed improvements. These programs have 
been particularly helpful for Maine's rural communities, 
including in Litchfield, West Gardner, Stonington, Greenbush, 
Southport, Milo, and Bridgewater, where a BUILD grant is 
funding the replacement of five at-risk bridges in poor 
condition and the rehabilitation of a compromised bridge.
    Additionally, I'm pleased that through another BUILD grant, 
the communities of Waterville and Winslow will benefit from the 
replacement of a 111-year-old bridge with a modern bridge with 
wider lanes, shoulder, sidewalks, and bike lanes. It also will 
eliminate the possibility of an eight-mile detour and related 
congestion should the current bridge fail.
    Rural communities face unique challenges in funding 
transportation infrastructure and often rely on programs, like 
RAISE, for necessary projects and improvements. According to 
the department's own statistics, 68 percent of our nation's 
total lane miles are in rural areas, two-thirds of rail freight 
originates in rural areas, and nearly half of all truck vehicle 
miles travel occur on rural roads.
    It is therefore imperative that our rural communities 
remain competitive in DOT's discretionary grant programs.
    In addition, like the Chairman, I want to note the funding 
that was included for the National Security Multi-mission 
Vessel Program to replace California's Golden Bear Training 
Vessel. This investment delivers the fifth and final Maritime 
Academy Ship Replacement and fully funds the program that was 
initiated in 2018.
    These vessels are critical for training cadets at the Maine 
Maritime Academy and at the other Maritime Academies. I am 
concerned about the lag in getting them constructed and out to 
the academies.
    Finally, I'm pleased to see that the Administration 
includes funding for the Essential Air Service and investments 
to improve the safety and efficiency of our nation's air space. 
The Fiscal 2022 requests 3.4 billion for facilities and 
equipment, an increase of 395 million.
    Again, Mr. Secretary, I welcome you to today's hearing and 
I look forward to hearing your testimony.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much, Senator Collins.
    For the information of members, we have a three-vote series 
at 3:15. We will roll right through and Vice Chair Collins will 
take the gavel when I go down to vote.
    Mr. Secretary, please proceed with your testimony.

                SUMMARY STATEMENT OF HON. PETE BUTTIGIEG

    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you very much.
    Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairman Schatz. Thank you, 
Ranking Member Collins or Vice Chair, forgive me, and thank you 
to all of the members of the committee for the opportunity to 
join you and discuss the President's fiscal year 2022 Budget 
Request for the Department of Transportation.
    I also want to thank the members of this committee for your 
strong support for the Department and its programs which help 
to keep the American people safe and moving every day.
    The Department of Transportation plays a crucial role in 
maintaining and upgrading the infrastructure that powers our 
economy and keeps us moving. Yet as we've seen in recent 
months, such as with the I-40 bridge shut-down, much of our 
infrastructure in a state of disrepair.
    In some cases, we are relying on roads, bridges, railroads, 
ports, and waterway infrastructure built a century ago.
    In addition, our transportation infrastructure and systems 
are not sufficiently designed to mitigate or be resilient to 
the impacts of climate change.
    If we are to grow our economy, remain competitive, and 
address the climate crisis, we need to take swift and bold 
action. At this moment of challenge and opportunity, President 
Biden's first fiscal year 2022 Budget Request to Congress 
reflects that urgent need as well as our values and priorities.
    The request includes $88 billion to support transportation 
priorities throughout the nation. These resources will enable 
the Department to continue funding its current portfolio of 
programs while also revitalizing transit and rail and making 
necessary improvements to our aviation infrastructure.
    The President's proposal also includes a funding request 
for the American Jobs Plan, a once-in-a-generation investment 
in repairing and transforming our infrastructure, which will 
create millions of good-paying jobs and keep our economy moving 
forward for decades to come.
    It contains an additional $621 billion for long overdue 
repairs and improvements for our highways, transit systems, 
rail, ports, aviation, and more.
    The details of the President's budget request advance the 
vision of the American Jobs Plan and underscore our commitment 
to key priorities: improving safety, building economic 
strength, addressing the climate crisis, advancing equity, and 
supporting innovation.
    Let me share some of the highlights of this budget request 
when it comes to transportation.
    As always, promoting safety for the hundreds of millions of 
Americans who rely on our transportation systems is this 
Department's North Star and safety is embedded throughout the 
budget request.
    The President is requesting $18.5 billion for the Federal 
Aviation Administration, including $17.4 million to strengthen 
aviation safety oversight and begin addressing the requirements 
of the Aviation Certification Safety and Accountability Act.
    FAA will also receive a billion dollars to improve the 
facilities that house the workforce and technology at the heart 
of our air traffic control system. Many of these facilities 
were built in the 1960s and are in dire need of replacement or 
repair.
    This funding will reduce the current backlog and help 
ensure our air traffic controllers have an efficient, modern 
workplace to carry out their mission of keeping the skies safe.
    The budget also includes $246 million, over a $50 million 
increase, for the National Highway Traffic Safety 
Administration's Vehicle Safety Programs. These programs help 
advance safety innovations to keep pace with the rapid 
development of vehicle electronics and automated driving 
systems.
    This funding will also help to mitigate carbon pollution by 
enforcing the highest achievable fuel economy standards and 
ensuring that alternative fuel vehicles are safe.
    With respect to transit, the President's request includes 
$2.5 billion for Capital Investment Grants, a $459 billion 
increase, to accelerate existing transit projects and support 
new ones. These increases will help us advance cleaner vehicles 
while creating jobs to benefit our economy.
    The President's budget includes $2.7 billion for Amtrak, a 
35 percent increase, to accelerate track renewal, renovate 
aging stations, refresh the existing capital fleet, and help 
address maintenance backlogs throughout the system.
    Along with a $625 million for a new competitive Passenger 
Rail Improvement Modernization and Expansion Program (or PRIME) 
Grants, these investments will be modernizing passenger rail 
service and growing existing rail corridors throughout the 
country.
    To encourage innovative transportation projects that are 
tailored to fit local needs, the President's request continues 
$1 billion in funding for the flexible and over-subscribed 
RAISE Grants. This popular competitive grant program provides 
much-needed Federal funding to help localities that are working 
on innovative modern infrastructure projects.
    Lastly, I want to mention the $110 million requested for a 
new Thriving Communities Program that will establish a new 
office to help communities eliminate transportation barriers 
and improve access to jobs, schools, and businesses to ensure 
all Americans have access to fair, equitable, affordable 
transportation options.
    These are just a few of the items in the budget request, 
which, together with the Jobs Plan, will help keep Americans 
safe and moving, make the necessary investments to tackle the 
climate crisis, and provide the foundation for economic 
prosperity.
    I thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you 
today and I look forward to responding to your questions.
    [The statement follows:]
               Prepared Statement of Hon. Peter Buttigieg
    Chairman Schatz, Ranking Member Collins, and members of the 
Subcommittee: thank you for the opportunity to discuss the President's 
fiscal year 2022 Budget request for the Department of Transportation. I 
also want to thank the members of this subcommittee for your strong 
support of our Department and its programs, which help keep the 
American people safe every day.
    The Department of Transportation plays a crucial role in 
maintaining and upgrading the infrastructure that powers our economy 
and keeps us moving. Yet, as we've seen in recent months, such as with 
the I-40 bridge shutdown, much of our infrastructure is in a state of 
disrepair. In some cases, we are relying on roads, bridges, railroads, 
ports, and waterway infrastructure built a century ago. In addition, 
our transportation infrastructure and systems are not sufficiently 
designed to mitigate or be resilient to the impacts of climate change. 
If we want to grow our economy, remain competitive, and address the 
climate crisis, we need to take swift and bold action.
    At this moment of challenge and opportunity, President Biden's 
first fiscal year 2022 budget request to Congress reflects that urgent 
need, as well as our values and priorities. The request includes $88 
billion to support transportation priorities throughout the nation. 
These resources will enable the Department to continue funding its 
current portfolio of programs, while also revitalizing transit and 
rail, and making necessary improvements to our aviation infrastructure.
    The President's proposal also includes a funding request for the 
American Jobs Plan: a once-in-a-generation investment in repairing and 
transforming our infrastructure, which will create millions of good-
paying jobs and keep our economy moving forward for decades to come.
    It contains an additional $621 billion for long-overdue repairs and 
improvements for our highways, transit systems, rail, ports, aviation, 
and more.
    The details of the President's budget request advance the vision of 
the American Jobs Plan, and underscore our commitment to key 
priorities: improving safety, building economic strength, addressing 
the climate crisis, advancing equity, and supporting innovation.
    Let me share some of the highlights of this budget request when it 
comes to transportation.
    As always, promoting safety for the hundreds of millions of 
Americans who rely on our transportation system is this Department's 
``North Star.'' And safety is embedded throughout this budget request.
    The President is requesting $18.5 billion for the Federal Aviation 
Administration, including $17.4 million to strengthen Aviation Safety 
Oversight and begin addressing the requirements of the Aircraft 
Certification Safety and Accountability Act.
    FAA will also receive $1 billion to improve the facilities that 
house the workforce and technology at the heart of our air traffic 
control system. Many of these facilities were built in the 1960s and 
are in dire need of replacement or repair. This funding will reduce the 
current backlog and help ensure our air traffic controllers have an 
efficient, modern workplace to carry out their mission of keeping the 
skies safe.
    The budget also includes $246 million--over a $50 million 
increase--for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's 
Vehicle Safety Programs. These programs help advance safety innovations 
to keep pace with the rapid development of vehicle electronics and 
automated driving systems. This funding will also help to mitigate 
carbon pollution, by enforcing the highest achievable fuel-economy 
standards and ensuring that alternative fuel vehicles are safe.
    With respect to transit, the President's request includes $2.5 
billion for Capital Investment Grants--a $459 million increase--to 
accelerate existing transit projects and support new ones. These 
increases will help us advance cleaner vehicles, while creating jobs 
that benefit our economy.
    The President's budget includes $2.7 billion for Amtrak, 
representing a 35 percent increase. This support will accelerate track 
renewal, renovate aging stations, refresh the existing capital fleet, 
and help address maintenance backlogs throughout the system. Along with 
$625 million for a competitive new Passenger Rail Improvement, 
Modernization, and Expansion program--known as PRIME Grants--these 
investments will modernize passenger rail service and grow existing 
rail corridors throughout the country.
    To encourage innovative transportation projects that are tailored 
to fit local needs, the President's request continues $1 billion in 
funding for the flexible and oversubscribed RAISE grants. This popular, 
competitive grant program provides much-needed Federal funding to help 
localities that are working on innovative, modern infrastructure 
projects.
    Finally, I want to mention the $110 million requested for a new 
``Thriving Communities'' program that will establish a new office to 
help communities eliminate transportation barriers and improve access 
to jobs, schools, and businesses. This program aims to ensure that all 
Americans have access to fair, equitable, affordable transportation 
options.
    These are just a few of the items in the President's 2022 budget 
request, which, together with the American Jobs Plan, will help keep 
Americans safe and moving, make the necessary investments to tackle the 
climate crisis, and provide the foundation for economic prosperity.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you today. I 
look forward to answering your questions.

    Senator Schatz. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
    Transportation is the largest contributor to greenhouse gas 
emissions, but we do not currently measure the impact of new 
transportation projects on emissions.
    Are you going to engage in a rulemaking to require DOTs and 
MPOs to set greenhouse gas emission performance measures?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Yes, you can't manage what you don't 
measure and, as you noted, we lack some of the measures that 
are needed for performance with regard to tailpipe emissions, 
and with transportation being the sector contributing the most 
to greenhouse gases, we need to act.
    The Federal Highway Administration plans to propose a rule 
establishing a method for states and metropolitan planning 
organizations (MPOs) to measure and report on tailpipe 
emissions. We are hopeful of publishing the proposed rule for 
comment in September 2021.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you. We had this extraordinary 
hearing a couple of weeks ago on resiliency, especially in the 
context of climate change, and there was a researcher from the 
University of Maine who had this extraordinary technology, some 
of it funded by your UTC Program.
    What we are starting to understand, though, is that UTC 
funds these innovative new ways to do things and that doesn't 
necessarily get deployed because, although there's a small 
grant program to kind of do the technology transfer to the 
various state departments of transportation, it's not enough of 
a financial incentive, and so I'm wondering, you know, there's 
a technocratic way to ask this question, which is how do we 
make sure that the sort of workflow goes all the way from UTC 
to innovation to deployment at the DOT level.
    But it occurs to me that this is about building back better 
but the execution is no small thing because it is entirely 
possible that what Professor Doger has developed will take 20 
or 30 years to be deployed if you don't fix our system in 
partnership with us.
    So what do we do about the problem of finding all this 
technology and then it lays on the shelf and our state DOTs 
either aren't aware of it or aren't incentivized to deploy it?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, I want to thank you for lifting 
up federally-funded research in Maine and so many other places 
where this extraordinary work happens, and I view our 
Department's role as not only directly supporting such research 
but cross-pollinating, making sure that when a good idea is 
being implemented, even if it's in a pilot phase or in a 
nascent form, that we can help that get carried over to other 
places.
    Sometimes that can be directly encoded in what we support, 
other times I think it's an informal role that the Department 
plays, helping to share knowledge and expertise, but it's a 
role that we look forward to embracing.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you. Let me talk to you about net 
zero emissions in aviation.
    Does the FAA have a realistic plan to work with the 
airlines to achieve their goal of zero carbon emissions by 
2050, and how much of hitting 2050 depends on sort of hopeful 
thinking as it relates to technological break-throughs or 
massive subsidies?
    Secretary Buttigieg. There is a lot of potential, 
especially around sustainable aviation fuels, but I think any 
of us intuitively can recognize the difference between, for 
example, the progress made in zero emission cars and what's 
going on with aircraft. A lot of the opportunity is less about 
having a form of propulsion that doesn't burn any fuel and more 
about making sure the life cycle emissions of the fuels are 
reduced or even net zero.
    That's a topic not only in the U.S. but in the global 
aviation community as we head next year towards the 
International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)--convening. 
It's something where I think we can come together around some 
demanding standards and support airlines in seeking to meet 
them.
    Senator Schatz. Yeah. I just think there's a balance to 
strike here between sort of magical thinking, imagining that 
some technology will emerge in 2035 and solve all of our 
problems and it's sufficiently far into the future that we can 
just refer to it hopefully, and also declaring that this is not 
doable and then not even trying.
    So I'm hoping that you can strike the right balance, but 
also be clear-eyed about where we are, and if the airlines are 
essentially saying if you over-subsidize us, we'll do whatever 
you want. Well, that's not quite the solution set that I think 
we're going to want to land on.
    Final question. You have a $110 million for Thriving 
Communities. Everybody likes thriving communities, but what do 
you mean by that?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thanks for the opportunity to spell 
this out a little further.
    The idea of Thriving Communities is that Federal dollars 
can either help or hurt from the perspective of a community 
being connected and the community sometimes being divided by 
the very same pieces of infrastructure we're building.
    Thriving Communities recognizes that there are places 
around the country from south to north and east to west, 
examples from St. Paul, Minnesota, to Pittsburgh to New 
Orleans, where we've seen a piece of federally-funded highway 
infrastructure, for example, literally cut a community in half.
    We've got a chance to do something about that. Sometimes 
that means capping a highway and reclaiming the land that was 
torn up in order to produce it. Other times it means 
introducing bridges over or tunnels under or transit routes 
around these divisions, but the most important thing is to make 
sure that transportation really does connect. That's something 
that we're really eager to lean into as an important moral and 
economic responsibility of the Department.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you.
    Senator Collins.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, in December Congress passed the Coronavirus 
Economic Relief for Transportation Services Act, known as the 
CERTS Act. It was part of a COVID relief package to provide $2 
billion to support our nation's bus, motor coach, and passenger 
vehicle industries, a sector that had really been overlooked in 
previous COVID packages.
    Senator Jack Reed and I authored this legislation and we 
were successful in getting it included in the December package.
    Virtually every major source of business and revenue for 
bus companies, including school--and sports-related travel, 
tourism, public events, weddings, you name it, has been 
severely restricted or eliminated over the past 14 months.
    Now I recognize that the Department of Treasury is 
responsible for the administration of the CERTS Program, but 
despite the fact that the program was enacted into law over 6 
months ago, not a single dollar has reached these entities that 
are struggling to survive.
    Given that DOT has provided technical expertise and 
guidance to Treasury on this program, would you be willing to 
reach out to Treasury to see if you could use the expertise 
with dealing with these transportation companies to expedite 
this relief?
    If they have to wait another 2 months to actually get the 
money, now that the portal has been set up, it's going to be a 
real problem. Many of them will not survive.
    Secretary Buttigieg. We absolutely stand ready to support 
Treasury in this. As you know, Treasury has the lead but we 
have a lot of relationships and data and expertise when it 
comes to the motor-coach industry and we want to deploy that in 
order to be helpful.
    We did consult with them, knowing how important this is to 
you, Senator Reed, and others on this committee. We're advised 
that the portal is set to go live and be ready to take 
applications this month and recognize, of course, that putting 
an application in is just one step.
    We'll also do everything we can to make sure that that aid 
is flowing as promptly and responsibly as possible.
    Senator Collins. My hope is that we're not going to see 
another two-month delay once the applications are received. 
That would be truly tragic for a lot of these buses that are 
used by lower income people, by schools. So I hope that you 
will help us on that.
    I raised in my opening statement my concern about rural 
communities being left behind and my concern is prompted in 
part by the fact that the department has changed some of its 
criteria for rating applications for the BUILD Grants or the 
RAISE Grants, as we call them now, and I'm very pleased to say 
that both Maine and I know Rhode Island, as well, were 
successful in all 11 rounds of BUILD grants from 2009 to 2020, 
and in the case of Maine, we've received 250 million since its 
inception.
    I want to make sure that rural states like Maine remain 
competitive and get a fair shake in RAISE going forward. So my 
concern is that if you're weighing factors that simply aren't 
relevant to rural communities, that don't exist in rural 
communities that rural communities are going to be at a 
disadvantage in applying for these grants.
    Given the changes that you've made, how can you ensure that 
rural communities will still be treated fairly and be 
competitive in getting funding?
    Secretary Buttigieg. It is certainly our intent to make 
sure that rural communities no less than urban benefit from the 
RAISE Program, and I thank this committee and you for your 
support of this program.
    I should also note that Congress makes very clear the 
expectation of 50/50 split with regard to the RAISE Program and 
other discretionary programs also have that, and, we will 
maintain fidelity to that Congressional intent.
    I would also add that the original NOFO requirements from 
the past are intact. We've added clarifications about other 
things we consider important but do not regard those as being 
systematically to the disadvantage of rural communities, 
whether we're talking about climate considerations, which 
affect every community in America, or equity considerations, 
which will certainly look different in different parts of the 
country, but in one way or another are meaningful everywhere.
    It certainly should not systematically be to the 
disadvantage of one part of the country or one scale of 
community or another.
    Senator Collins. Thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Murray.
    Senator Murray. Thank you, Chairman Schatz and Ranking 
Member Collins.
    Secretary Buttigieg, good to see you. Thank you for being 
here today.
    I just want to say I was really pleased to see the proposed 
levels of investment for the Department of Transportation in 
the President's budget, especially with regard to transit 
funding and the TIGER-BUILD-RAISE Discretionary Grant Program 
and I certainly appreciate the renewed focus on climate change, 
sustainability, and equitability. So thank you for that.
    And with that in mind, I also want to thank you and the 
President for allocating money in the fiscal year 2022 budget 
for two Washington projects in the Capital Investment Grant 
Program. We've already talked about them before and the 
importance of the projects.
    It's the South King County BRT I Line and the Pacific 
Avenue Route 7 BRT Project. So I appreciate your work on that, 
but I do want to urge you and the FTA Administrator Fernandez 
to work with our transit agencies on the ground out there to 
get what we need for the grant agreement. I look forward to 
working with you on that.
    Secretary Buttigieg. We're certainly committed to working 
with you on that and delighted whenever we're able to deliver 
for a community through CIG.
    Senator Murray. Great. I also want to thank you and the 
department for the allocation of millions of dollars to support 
transit projects in Washington State funds from the American 
Rescue Plan. That money is so critical to keeping workers on 
the jobs and trains and buses moving on time and I just want to 
join everybody in urging you to get that money out as fast as 
possible.
    Investing in our transit systems and our agencies is really 
important as we talk about reauthorizing the nation's surface 
transportation programs and an infrastructure package. So I 
would like to ask you for your support of the Public Transit 
Capital Investment Relief Act.
    I introduced that earlier this year and it's a bill that 
will provide really needed relief to public transportation 
agencies through the Capital Investment Grant Program by 
increasing the Federal cost-share by an additional 30 percent 
of the total project cost and would really love to have your 
support on that.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you. I look forward to reviewing 
how we would be able to put that into practice and thank you 
for your support of transit. They've been hurting a lot with 
what happened to their fare box revenue and their operations.
    The Rescue Plan went a long way, but there's a lot more we 
can do to support our transit.
    Senator Murray. Great. I also want to bring up the issue of 
fish culverts which I know is something that nobody here has 
probably has talked to you about, but I know that Senator 
Cantwell and I have been talking with you a lot about and that 
is so important to Washington State, how it's important to 
restoring our salmon runs in the Pacific Northwest. It's 
important to our constituents and I won't dwell on the details 
or the background, but we know that one really crucial piece of 
salmon recovery is this culvert repair and replacement and 
other fish passage and habitat restoration plans.
    These projects create jobs. They drive economic 
development. They combat the effects of climate change and they 
help us meet tribal treaty obligations which is why I believe 
they belong in an infrastructure package and to that end, I 
recently co-sponsored the Bridge Investment Act which would 
make culvert projects eligible for two new major bridge 
programs.
    As you know, I'm working very closely with Senator Cantwell 
on this issue and I just for the committee want to highlight 
the great work she's done in the Commerce Committee, Surface 
Transportation title, which she's done a great job on, but it 
proposes to invest four billion in the repair and removal of 
fish culverts. That's really of critical importance to our 
state.
    By the way, it's also a bipartisan issue. So I hope that 
you and your team, Mr. Secretary, can take some time to review 
the Commerce Committee's proposal and work with us and our 
staffs to find a path forward on this important issue for us.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, thank you. I know how important 
it is to your region and would welcome the chance to work with 
you on that.
    Senator Murray. Great. And, as always, thank you for all 
the work and time you put into all these critical projects. I 
look forward to continuing conversations and appreciate your 
coming here today.
    So thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Boozman.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 
Secretary, for being here today.
    First of all, I want to thank you for being so helpful in 
regard to the I-40 Bridge. That is a very serious situation. 
For those of you that don't know, the I-40 bridge connecting 
Arkansas to Tennessee is in the middle of a serious repair and 
it is a truly major hub, costing trucking about $2.4 million 
each day, along with just all those that travel that bridge. So 
you've done outstanding. Your staff has been very, very 
helpful. We would appreciate it if you would continue, and I 
know you will, but also as we look through the 2022 funding 
request, you know, seeing if there's anything that we can do, 
perhaps the Federal Government, to be of help as we go forward.
    Again, that certainly was not something that Arkansas and 
Tennessee planned for, but like I say, we really do appreciate 
your help very, very much.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you and appreciate the 
communication with your team and your recognition of our team 
working hard. Your sense of urgency and your invitation to come 
along with your Arkansas and Tennessee colleagues to see it for 
ourselves led to a trip that was--
    Senator Boozman. And you did. You came immediately and 
again so I do appreciate that.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you.
    Senator Boozman. That was, I think, a real boost and as you 
know, it's just a classic example of, you know, your leadership 
and then the state DOT's jumping in, Coast Guard was helpful, 
and there for a while we had the Mississippi River shut down. 
So, you know, you can imagine the impact of that with trade. So 
again thank you for really setting the bar in a very, very good 
way.
    Contract Tower Program is one of FAA's most successful 
government/industry partnerships and as you well know has very 
strong bipartisan/bicameral support in Congress. As validated 
numerous times by the Department of Transportation, DOT 
Inspector General, the program continues to provide high-
quality, cost-effective, and critical air traffic control 
services to over 250 smaller airports throughout our nation's 
air transportation system, including five in Arkansas.
    Given the critical importance of contract towers to Rural 
America's smaller airports, what steps are DOT and FAA taking 
to work collaboratively with industry to ensure the continued 
success of rural airports that depend on contract towers?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you for the question, Senator. 
We certainly recognize the important role that these towers 
play in our air traffic organization and our national air space 
overall, and we're committed to making sure, especially with 
regard to the modernization of the overall system, that every 
element of it is successful, whether we're talking about the 
biggest airports with the most directly-controlled Federal 
resources or rural airports that rely on the Contract Tower 
Program, EAS, and other forms of support.
    That is why you'll see in the President's request a very 
robust level of funding requested to support FAA and this 
continuing work. Obviously there's a lot going on with next 
generation air traffic control that will be a multiyear 
journey, but we certainly want to make sure that the contract 
towers are successful in every dimension of deploying that.
    Senator Boozman. Good. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
    As you're well aware, we are seeing an uptick of drunk-
impaired driving in the U.S. with marijuana legalization, not 
to mention the opioid crisis.
    Would you agree your fiscal year 2022 drunk-driving 
initiatives from a safety perspective and talk for a moment 
about the need for more research on the issue?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you for raising that, Senator. 
Alarmingly, even though there was considerably less driving 
than normal in 2020, our traffic safety data is showing that 
shockingly there were more fatalities and crashes, and it 
indicates that we've really got our work cut out for us.
    In fact, we saw some of the worst numbers since 2007. Part 
of this relates to drunk or impaired driving, part of it 
relates to speeding, part of it relates to not wearing 
seatbelts, and, of course, any time more than one of those 
factors interact, it makes a crash that much more likely to be 
fatal. It's why the budget request includes resources for NHTSA 
to continue both on the research side making sure that we're 
really understanding and analyzing what the data tells us about 
the causes and also on the behavior side because we have 
resources to step up public communication about just how much 
of a life or death difference it can make to drive safely.
    We'll be happy to work with you to offer more detail if 
that's of interest.
    Senator Boozman. Very good. Thank you.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Coons.
    Senator Coons. Thank you, Chairman Schatz, and Vice Chair 
Collins, both for this hearing and for your leadership on this 
committee.
    Secretary Buttigieg, it is so wonderful to be with you at 
this important moment in the future of transportation. We have 
an opportunity and I hope it's one we'll seize on a bipartisan 
basis to provide robust funding for investment in America's 
infrastructure to make it both more competitive and more 
relevant to the context and the time we're in.
    Amtrak is, of course, my first question, and I appreciate 
the President's request to increase Amtrak baseline funding by 
35 percent from fiscal year 2021. We need steady annual funding 
to both maintain and improve our passenger rail network.
    I'm leading the annual Dear Colleague Letter in support of 
that requested funding for Amtrak for fiscal year 2022.
    The budget also requests a generation investment through 
the American Jobs Plan, that framework, for Amtrak needed to 
address the repair backlog which is about $42 billion in the 
Northeast Corridor.
    Can you talk about how the annual budget request would work 
in concert with the American Jobs Plan?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you. I often say that in this 
Administration, I can only ever aspire to be the second biggest 
Amtrak enthusiast, but I'm trying to make it a close second, 
and as you note, there is a repair backlog, a great deal of 
need, and a great deal of value to be unlocked by making sure 
that Americans can count on the highest standard of passenger 
rail service.
    We regard the $4.0 billion budget request, which represents 
a 35 percent increase, as a foundation. It's an example of what 
we need to do, frankly, in order to be able to continue to 
enjoy the service that we have, especially knowing what Amtrak 
went through with COVID, and I want to thank the Congress for 
the Rescue Plan being an important part of how we kept that 
from leading to the furloughs and route cuts that we might have 
seen.
    But as you know, we would have to go considerably further 
to really deliver the kind of passenger rail service that 
Americans deserve, and that's why you see such high levels of 
funding. $85 million is envisioned in the President's Jobs Plan 
for rail overall in this country.
    We view this as both making sure that we are doing the 
right thing through the annual process and making sure we have 
the generational investment.
    Senator Coons. And if I could just briefly, Mr. Secretary, 
if we go ahead and make that generational investment in dealing 
with the backlog for state of good repair, how would that 
impact our annual budget going forward in terms of Amtrak?
    Secretary Buttigieg. What we know is that repairs don't get 
any cheaper. I want to make sure I was clear. The $4.0 billion 
is for FRA and $2.7 billion of that is envisioned for Amtrak. 
We can either make the right repairs now and pay for them or we 
can pay more in the future.
    Unlike roads where we have a Highway Trust Fund or airports 
where there's also a trust fund, there isn't that kind of 
multiyear mechanism when it comes to rail, but we envision 
continuing to work with Congress to have that steady annual 
support and relieving some of these mounting costs of deferred 
maintenance that, candidly, was needed years ago, which is part 
of what the Jobs Plan can help address.
    Senator Coons. We first got to know each other through our 
shared experience in local government and we both witnessed the 
ways in which the threat of climate change for vulnerable 
communities needs a response. My home state, the lowest mean 
elevation state in America, faces some real threats from rising 
sea level as do a number of other states represented on this 
committee.
    I'm excited about funding for the climate research, the 
continuation of the Clean Program, something that I worked to 
extend in the 2018 FAA reauthorization.
    I'm interested in how some of the programs in this budget 
request, in particular the National Resilient Communities 
Challenge, will increase the capability and the capacity of 
local communities to build resilience in the face of climate 
change.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, as you know and as we both 
experienced in local government, it really is communities that 
are on the front line. Of course, there are national and even 
international steps that need to be taken to mitigate climate 
change, but ultimately it comes down to a particular bridge, a 
particular dam, a particular neighborhood impacted by climate. 
With things like the Resilient Communities Challenge incentives 
and ways to boost the innovation that's happening locally--
often communities are innovating out of absolute necessity but 
would benefit from having a Federal hand, both to help them 
pursue these innovations and to lift up and spread them to 
other communities that could benefit.
    This is an important part of how we can make sure that that 
resilience really is set up for the changes that are coming in 
the severity and frequency of extreme weather events, no matter 
how good we are at responding to the climate challenge.
    Senator Coons. Two more questions, if I might, Mr. 
Secretary.
    First, a bill, very broadly bipartisan bill, called Driving 
for Opportunity. We've talked about it before, but I commend 
the Administration's focus on equity. This is a bill that is 
literally supported by the FOP, the Chamber of Commerce, 
Americans for Prosperity, the ACLU, and Lawyers Committee for 
Civil Rights under Law, and dozens of others.
    It essentially incentivizes ending the practice of 
suspending drivers' licenses for those who cannot pay fees and 
fines not related to traffic safety just because they're poor.
    I'd be interested in your view on the issue of debt-based 
license suspension as a matter of economic and racial 
inequality in terms of access to the opportunity to drive and 
to be employed.
    Secretary Buttigieg. One of the poverty traps that exists 
is the inability to access a car which is needed in order to be 
able to get to work, in order to be able to get out of poverty, 
and often these kinds of obstacles are part of that.
    As you mentioned, safety is one thing and we have to make 
sure always that we're looking after safety, but when it's not 
related to safety, I do think that there's an opportunity to 
expand the ability to access good-paying jobs.
    I can tell you firsthand, so often when we were working 
with people ready to turn around what had been potentially 
violent lives and get on to a better pathway forward, or when 
we were looking at people who had no interaction with the 
criminal justice system but were in these cycles of poverty, in 
both cases it is very important to make sure that we tear down 
obstacles to being able to get to where people need, whether 
that's equitable access to transit or, as you say, reducing the 
kinds of suspensions that make it difficult to for people to 
drive themselves.
    Senator Coons. Last question, if I could. One of the 
reasons to pursue bipartisan legislation around transportation 
is to give the department authorizations, the ability to do 
things that can't be accomplished under current law.
    Could you just briefly mention any of the reforms, things 
like rebranding BUILD, creating PRIME, dealing with state of 
good repair, where the department hopes to accomplish something 
that cannot be accomplished under current law?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Just very briefly, I'll mention two. 
You spoke to PRIME, which is important, in addition to our 
funding request for Amtrak, because it can support not only 
Amtrak but other passenger rail services that are so important. 
The authorization to do that would allow us to do so much more.
    I would also return to the theme of Thriving Communities. 
The authorization to make sure that Federal dollars are helping 
where Federal dollars may in the past have been harming is a 
great way to meet the equity objectives of this Administration 
and lift up communities as a whole.
    Senator Coons. Terrific. Thank you very much, Mr. 
Secretary.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Kennedy.
    Senator Kennedy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. Last Congress we 
passed a bill, I think it was called The Pipes Act, which 
called for the creation, the establishment of an LNG Center of 
Excellence, and I think we asked the Department of 
Transportation to give us a report about the establishment of 
the center.
    It's obviously important to my state. We are the leading 
exporter of LNG, liquefied natural gas, and I suspect we will 
be for a while.
    Do you know when we can expect that report, Mr. Secretary? 
I know you have a lot on your plate but.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I'll make sure to look into that and 
get back to you. We're working to keep up with a number of the 
authorizations and expectations in the PIPES Act, and I'll 
check with the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety 
Administration (PHMSA) to see where they stand.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. How many times have you testified 
since you've been Secretary in Congress?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, I think this would be my third 
in the Senate and I've got something like three in the House.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. Congress whines a lot, doesn't it?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I doubt it would be my place to say 
that, Senator.
    Senator Kennedy. It's because we've given up all our 
authority to you guys.
    Speaking of whining, let me talk to you a little bit 
about--give me your thoughts about liquefied natural gas.
    Secretary Buttigieg. It certainly represents part of an 
``all of the above'' fuel strategy for the U.S. I don't want to 
venture outside my lane as the Transportation Secretary.
    Senator Kennedy. I know, but you've thought about it--
    Secretary Buttigieg. I think more about other energy but--
    Senator Kennedy [continuing]. and you're influential. Is it 
part of our energy future?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, it's certainly part of our 
energy present.
    Senator Kennedy. I'll agree with that. You think it's part 
of our energy future?
    Secretary Buttigieg. It's not part of a zero emissions 
means, for example, of fueling light duty vehicles, but there 
are a lot of applications where electrifying is certainly not 
in the near future. To the extent that LNG or any kind of 
natural gas offers fewer emissions than diesel or some of the 
more carbon-intensive forms of fossil fuels, then at the very 
least it can be attractive as a bridge.
    Senator Kennedy. Well, and in the last decade, the United 
States has reduced its CO2 emissions and in the last decade, 
China, for example, which emits more CO2 than any other country 
in the history of ever, has increased its CO2 emissions.
    Why have we been going down and China's been going up?
    Secretary Buttigieg. What I'll say is I certainly wouldn't 
want to emulate China in that regard. I hope that we can 
continue to drive the--
    Senator Kennedy. Well, I didn't suggest we should, but why 
has China been going up? Forget China for a second. Why have we 
been going down?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I'd like to think it's because of the 
U.S. tradition of leading the world in doing the right thing.
    Senator Kennedy. Natural gas is part of it, isn't it?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I would say that's more of a how than 
why, I guess, in my way of thinking, which is maybe why I 
missed your question, but certainly conversions from coal or 
diesel to gas have had climate benefits.
    Senator Kennedy. So if we liquefy natural gas and we sell 
it to a country at a reasonable price that, let's say, for 
example, uses coal, isn't the world better off in terms of the 
environment?
    Secretary Buttigieg. If those were the only two choices, 
then yes.
    Senator Kennedy. At what point do you think realistically 
in terms of available, affordable energy sources without 
taxpayers having to subsidize it we're going to have other 
options?
    Secretary Buttigieg. With regard to cars and light duty 
vehicles and increasingly things like pickup trucks, that day 
has come. For other applications, it may be further out.
    Senator Kennedy. But when?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, again, yesterday when it comes 
to vehicles. For other applications, I'd probably defer to the 
Secretary of Energy for more sophisticated insights, but, of 
course, it depends on the industry.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. What are your thoughts about 
petrochemical production?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Generally?
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, it's certainly part of our 
economy and part of how a lot of goods and materials are made.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. Do you think we ought to phase those 
plants out?
    Secretary Buttigieg. If there are ways to produce products 
that create less harm, then of course we'll want to develop 
toward those, as industry generally does when we find that 
there's a less emissions-intensive or less toxic way to do 
something.
    Senator Kennedy. Do you think we'll still be exporting 
liquefied natural gas and it will still be a major source of 
energy and contributing to a cleaner environment compared to 
coal, for example, in 10 years?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I would want to defer to the EIA for 
those kinds of forecasts.
    Senator Kennedy. Yeah. But what do you think? You read a 
lot. What do you think?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I think that the sooner the U.S. can 
get to zero emissions in any given industry, the better off the 
world and the U.S. are going to be.
    Senator Kennedy. Sure. I understand that, but how about in 
10 years?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I don't know, Senator.
    Senator Kennedy. How about 20?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Again, Senator, I don't know.
    Senator Kennedy. What would be your preference?
    Secretary Buttigieg. My preference would be that we're able 
to meet our energy needs by means that don't contribute to the 
climate problem.
    Senator Kennedy. Okay. And does that to you mean no fossil 
fuels?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, certainly in terms of burning 
them up, unless we're talking about things like sustainable 
aviation fuels that hold the promise, not yet fully realized, 
of lower life cycle emissions. But ultimately if we can power a 
given vehicle or widget or industry without setting anything on 
fire, that's a benefit to the climate and a benefit to the 
country.
    Senator Kennedy. Do you think it's possible--this will be 
my last one, Mr. Chairman. Do you think it's possible with 
carbon capture, sequestration, and utilization, it's possible 
to burn fossil fuels cleanly?
    Secretary Buttigieg. There's a lot of promise and a lot of 
benefit to CCUS. I hope we wouldn't lean on it as a crutch to 
get us out of our obligations to take more immediate steps that 
we ought to take.
    Senator Kennedy. Do you think we ought to try it?
    In other words, before we take our energy policy and we 
take our sources of energy and just throw them out the window 
and start over, don't you think for a fraction of the cost we 
ought to try to clean up what we have now?
    Secretary Buttigieg. It depends how we think about the 
cost, right? If we're factoring in the full cost of the 
toxicity and the emissions of a lot of the fuels we depend on 
now, then apples to apples, we're already there in terms of the 
benefits of more renewable sources of energy that exist right 
here in the United States coast-to-coast. The sooner we can be 
using those the better off we're going to be because we don't 
have a lot of time, Senator.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, great to see you again, and I want to start 
by commending you on a number of items in the budget. You 
mentioned Thriving Communities to address situations where 
Federal transportation projects have actually divided 
communities.
    You and I have talked previously about what we call the 
``highway to nowhere'' in West Baltimore, a highway that was 
started, never completed, but still divides a community in 
Baltimore, and I'm pleased there are also funds proposed as 
part of the American Jobs Plan there.
    I want to commend you on the Amtrak request and, as well, 
your Capital Investment Grants increase request.
    You've been a mayor of South Bend, Indiana. You may have 
experienced a situation where local governments have really 
important transit projects that they want to move forward, but 
the state that they're in is not supportive and therefore it 
becomes difficult to access the necessary funds to complete 
that project.
    We have that situation in Maryland. You visited Prince 
George's County. We were together when we were at the UPS Hub 
for the distribution of vaccines. Prince George's County has 
about 900,000 people. They want to establish a rapid transit 
connection with a county to their south, Charles County, which 
has over a 100,000 people. These two counties together have a 
population bigger than a couple states and yet it's been really 
difficult for them to get the State of Maryland to support 
their proposed transit project.
    Finally, the State Legislature passed something this year 
to do it. The Governor didn't sign it, but he didn't veto it. 
So that's the good news.
    As we look through the budget, and I really need your help 
not just today but going forward, these kind of projects, 
right, it's a kind of medium-sized project, it's a transit 
system between two counties becoming very congested, you look 
at the Federal transportation formulas and as you and I have 
discussed previously, states have an incentive when they have a 
fixed number of dollars to go for highways. They get a higher 
Federal match, much higher.
    The process is easier. The state just makes a decision to 
go and then they can draw down those funds, whereas for 
transit, you've got to go through a pretty cumbersome process 
to get the go-ahead and then, as I see it, we get about on 
average in the United States today about 54 percent Federal 
match.
    I'm looking at what's now called the RAISE Grant Program. 
It's a billion dollars. This committee has said, I think, $30 
million of that should be used for planning grants. I just want 
to be clear that that is a floor, not a ceiling.
    So for counties like Prince George's and Charles County 
where the state's not really stepped up in a significant way, 
it would be very helpful if we could work with you to--you 
know, RAISE Grants can be used for planning, but if we're 
really looking at 30 million, if we look it as a cap 
nationally, it's going to be impossible for lots of Prince 
George's County and Charles Counties to be able to access those 
funds.
    So I want to work with you to make sure that the 730 
million above the cap is also looked at by DOT for planning 
purposes and beyond that just your thoughts about how counties 
in this kind of situation that want to build a transit and are 
willing to put a good amount of money in but don't have the 
ability to write the entire check, how they would go about 
doing it.
    Is it the RAISE Grant? Is that the way they go these days? 
If that's the case, we need to do a lot better in terms of a 
national program.
    Secretary Buttigieg. First of all, the point's well taken 
about support for planning. That's especially important in 
order to get resources out equitably to communities that may 
not always have the same resources, counties that may not have 
the same resources.
    More generally with regard to supporting transit, we need 
to acknowledge that there is a national benefit, as well, to 
driving more successful transit uptake. There's certainly a 
climate benefit, a congestion benefit, and an efficiency 
benefit. We work with what Congress provides but are also eager 
to continue building that, and that's why the President's Job 
Plans calls for us to double Federal support for transit.
    Our Department stands ready to help facilitate that as well 
as through existing programs. You mentioned RAISE. I'd also 
point to the Capital Investment Grants Program, which has been 
successful and popular, and so many of these programs are 
getting more applications coming in than we're in a position to 
fund.
    Senator Van Hollen. I appreciate that. [Off microphone] not 
easily, but it is a clear path toward having that happen and 
when you've got this kind of regional transit project.
    So I really look forward to working with you. This is a big 
priority of the State of Maryland.
    Thank you.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you.
    Senator Collins. Thank you.
    First, let me say how wonderful it feels to be holding the 
gavel even for a very short time once again.
    Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Hoeven. I hear you, Ranking Member Collins.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Hoeven. Mr. Secretary, thanks for being here. Good 
to see you again.
    Give me your thoughts. Right now there's an effort to put 
together a bipartisan package on infrastructure. I think the 
number right now is about 950 billion over five, would range up 
to maybe 1.1 to 1.2 over eight. A variety of pay fors that we 
talked about when I was at the White House and you were there, 
focuses on pretty much traditional infrastructure, although 
some of the things that, you know, people feel aren't 
infrastructure.
    So that's a work in progress, but undoubtedly you've been 
briefed on it and obviously have been part of the 
conversations. Give me your thoughts on whether that's close to 
something that you think could get support from the 
Administration and in fact pass.
    Secretary Buttigieg. We're certainly encouraged by the 
conversations that continue. I'd like to believe even if there 
isn't a consensus on exactly what to do and how to do it, 
there's a consensus that we've got to do something big and 
we've got to do something bold and we've got to do something 
right away, and I can feel that shared sense of urgency 
animating these talks.
    I am hopeful that something could emerge that will have the 
support needed in this chamber as well as be something that the 
President and the Administration can support and in the other 
chamber as well. I hope we work on the principle that we don't 
want to be doing all this work just so we can stay in 13th 
place but that if we come together and commit the real 
resources that are needed, it can make it possible for America 
to continue to be in a position to lead the world.
    Senator Hoeven. So short version would be you're kind of 
onboard with the work but remaining and kind of watching to see 
what the final package looks like or you're engaged in terms of 
modifying the package or kind of, you know, maybe just a little 
more detail on where you're at with it.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I haven't seen the latest paper on 
where you and some of your colleagues are converging and would 
want to have a better feel for the composition of it, but 
certainly in principle, if there can be bipartisan agreement.
    Senator Hoeven. So it'd be fair to say if Senator Collins 
thinks it's okay, you think it's okay?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, that might not be fair to 
Senator Collins, but that would certainly be encouraging. Every 
additional Senator who thinks it's okay means that it has a 
better shot of advancing.
    Senator Hoeven. Have you had a chance to look at the Move 
America aspect? Senator Wyden and I have introduced that, again 
would provide bonding authority to try to get, you know, the 
public/private partnerships and private dollars into the 
equation, as well, would generate about $226 billion, and 
either that or there's been a revolving loan concept, too, but 
some mechanism like that again to help, you know, fund it.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I think those mechanisms have a lot of 
promise, and they are built or they could build on the Build 
America Bureau, which is the resource we have within the 
Department of Transportation, including private activity bonds.
    I don't think it can wholly substitute for other robust 
sources of Federal support, but certainly if we can unlock more 
sources of capital to build our infrastructure, we should give 
it a really good look.
    Senator Hoeven. Right. A piece of the puzzle, yeah, and 
then this one I think you'll relate to in terms of livestock 
hauling. We've got to have more flexibility under the hours of 
service rules for our livestock haulers.
    The latest provisions that have gone through Commerce 
relate to the Hauls Act, the bill that I support, and again it 
in essence exempts because of loading and unloading, a 150-mile 
radius of where you start when you're hauling live animals and 
when you end up in terms of the hours of service rules, so that 
you have the flexibility you need both to make sure you can 
load and unload your animals and, of course, it relates to the 
comfort and the humane treatment for hauling livestock.
    If that passes, which I think it will, I would ask for your 
support in its implementation.
    Secretary Buttigieg. We'll do everything we can to properly 
implement what comes from Congress, as we always seek to do, 
and we recognize that hauling live cattle, for example, is not 
the same thing as a truckload of printer paper, and it's 
important to be able to tell the difference.
    Senator Hoeven. Very important, and I know you understand 
the difference coming from Indiana.
    Last question I have. Would you believe that one of the 25 
busiest airports in the United States is in my state of North 
Dakota?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I would now, Senator.
    Senator Hoeven. One of the 25 busiest. So it's the Grand 
Forks Airport and in large part it's because the University of 
North Dakota has a fleet of more than a hundred aircraft there 
and the largest pilot training university in the country. So, 
in addition to the regular commercial traffic, they're 
constantly landing and taking off all these students and they 
teach everything from fixed wing to rotary to jet to air 
traffic control, all these things. Like I said, a fleet of more 
than a hundred aircraft.
    We need a new control tower and so I would just ask for 
your support to work with FAA that we can--you know, and this 
expansion projects underway.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Okay.
    Senator Hoeven. I'm just asking and I'm apprising you of 
it, why it's important because we need pilots and asking for 
your help and support with it.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, I learned something new today 
and I'll make sure to follow up on that.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Appreciate it.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Ranking Member.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Reed, my partner on Transportation for so many 
years. Great to see you.
    Senator Reed. Thank you, Ranking Member, Acting Chairman, 
very much.
    Welcome, Mr. Secretary. Thank you for your great service.
    We've all been, I think, shocked by the violence occurring 
on commercial airplanes. Scenes of flight attendants being 
literally attacked, 2,500 reports of unruly passengers 
recently, about 20 times the average number throughout the 
year, and the FAA's zero tolerance policy is in place but it 
ends in September.
    Will you work with the FAA to make it permanent?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I would want to learn more about the 
relevant authorities that will be needed, but I appreciate the 
opportunity to express our strong view that there is absolutely 
no excuse for unruly behavior, mistreatment, or abuse toward 
flight crews. They are there for passenger safety. They have a 
job to do, and we have no toleration for mistreatment of the 
people who keep our flying public safe.
    Senator Reed. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
    Last week we had the Attorney General before another 
subcommittee and I posed a similar question to him. He 
obviously agreed with you that this is extremely dangerous 
behavior, unacceptable, etcetera.
    Has the FAA, to your knowledge, referred any cases 
involving physical violence to the Department of Justice for 
prosecution, and, if not, will you commit to have a review 
process so that these serious incidences are in fact referred 
for serious prosecution?
    Secretary Buttigieg. I'll make sure to look into that.
    Senator Reed. Thank you very much. I want to join my 
colleague, Senator Collins, in promoting the Search Program 
where, through her leadership, I was the wing guy on the 
operation, we were able to get it through for the trucking 
industry, the busing industry, etcetera, and as you have 
committed, you're going to help the Treasury Department get the 
money out the door. It's there. We've got to get it out, and I 
appreciate very much your commitment. Thank you.
    RAISE Grants, which have a long history of different names 
but the same basic idea, the last Administration, there was no 
priorities for transit, none in highway programs, etcetera.
    Will you commit to just think about and hopefully enact a 
notion to give transit, bike, and pedestrian projects equal 
consideration? My sense was they were dismissed, missicius, I 
think, is the Latin word, but they're important to many 
communities. Would you put them in a place where they could be 
fairly considered?
    Secretary Buttigieg. They absolutely ought to be and will 
be considered consistent with statute. I believe the statute 
calls for diversity of modes to be contemplated which makes it 
all the more important not only as a matter of Administration 
policy but our best effort at fidelity to Congressional intent, 
to make sure we do so.
    Senator Reed. And, indeed, you know, as a former mayor, you 
recognize that, you know, key transportation projects could be 
a bike path or could be something much different than just a 
highway.
    Secretary Buttigieg. That's right.
    Senator Reed. And that language was not, I think, honored 
in actual promotions or grants last year and before.
    Last year the committee was able to provide $2 billion in 
extra general funding for highway formal programs and including 
$1 billion Bridge Rehabilitation Program and this funding made 
a huge difference for my state of Rhode Island. We have the 
worst bridges in the country but thanks to Senator Collins and 
my colleagues in the committee, we've made some progress to fix 
them.
    The President's budget does not include additional general 
fund dollars for these investments, but I hope the committee 
will be able to do so that we can again fund the Rehabilitation 
Program and other valuable programs.
    In this case and looking at the President's budget, if we 
stick with that budget, how will we fix the bridges which you 
know in every state in the Union are, as you indicated, a 
hundred years old and in Rhode Island try 200, so?
    Secretary Buttigieg. This is one of the reasons why it's so 
important that the American Jobs Plan move forward. The budget, 
the surface reauthorization, all of these things can help 
create a foundation, but we're dealing with a backlog of 
repairs that are not going to get any cheaper, and we need a 
major generational investment to help address it.
    Senator Reed. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, and thank you for 
your service. Thank you very much.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Likewise, thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Senator Braun.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Good to see you again, Mr. Secretary. Last Congress and 
this Congress we got a bill through committee unanimously, I 
think, to reauthorize and protect the Highway Trust Fund. That 
went through regular order. It's there bipartisan.
    Why not get that across the finish line because the 
insolvency will hit that fund next summer? I know we're 
wrestling with anything from 27, 23, 17, now maybe 900 billion 
to 12. This is clearly bipartisan. What's wrong with getting it 
across the finish line and then coming back and looking at the 
rest of it?
    Secretary Buttigieg. We would view the investments we're 
trying to make in the context of the Jobs Plan as addressing 
something a little bit different from what you're talking 
about.
    We have a backlog of needs, a readiness to take our 
infrastructure to the next level in this country, and a need to 
find means to fund that once-in-a-generation investment.
    But there's another parallel conversation, I agree, about 
the Highway Trust Fund and different views on how to address 
it--from the traditional model that we've relied on, which 
Congress for some years now has supplemented with General Fund 
transfers, to some other model that might make sense in the 
future.
    Respecting the pleasure of this committee and the rest of 
Congress in exactly how to do it, our Department will stand 
ready to deploy those funds as efficiently and promptly as 
possible however they ultimately are sent our way.
    Senator Braun. I think it'd be good to at least--I think 
that would symbolize the fact that we're getting something 
that's gone through some normal process and it's bipartisan and 
it wouldn't preclude doing the broader package that you're 
talking about.
    This past Monday before I came back to D.C., I spoke to a 
group of truckers in Indianapolis and they are concerned not 
only about what I just asked about, also about getting truck 
drivers to drive their units.
    Senator Young and I have got the Drive Safe Act, which 
would try to get through proper training once you're 18 years 
old on the pathway so you don't lose that window of having to 
wait 3 years before you can get someone trained to do that job 
professionally, technically put some at risk in states that 
have that broad geography anyway.
    Indiana, the Crossroads of America, you go a 150 miles east 
or west, you're triggered into needing that stipulation that 
you're 21 years old. Is that something we can get done?
    Secretary Buttigieg. It's something we can explore provided 
we satisfy any safety concerns that arise with it.
    Experienced drivers are the safest drivers, but you've got 
to begin getting experience at some point and we're also very 
attuned to the concerns about potential driver shortages. I had 
a similar experience speaking with trucking companies and 
hearing a lot about this and the President has asked me, along 
with Secretaries Vilsack, Raimondo, and others to participate 
in a supply chain task force addressing some of the supply 
chain issues we face. There's no question that making sure 
trucking is in good shape is a big part of that equation.
    Our commitment is to look for solutions that balance 
safety, economic need, and all of the other considerations that 
are affecting us because it is a real concern.
    Senator Braun. Would it make sense to maybe phase it in, 
try it, maybe not go full scale across the country, but owning 
a trucking company myself before I got here, it is the biggest 
issue we contend with along with the fact that that pathway in 
life, along with many other career and technical education-type 
jobs, high demand, high wage, you know, gets almost stigmatized 
against in terms of guidance that you get going through high 
school.
    So there's a lot working against that and no one's wanting 
to sacrifice safety shortcuts. We'd just like a little bit of 
agility in entrepreneurialism from this place when it comes to 
solving problems that have been around for that long.
    We've talked about this before, how to pay for things. Come 
from our great state. We believe in rainy day funds, balanced 
budgets, living within our means, thinking big but paying our 
bills. That's the exact opposite of your new employer here. I 
found that out when I got here two and a half years ago.
    Why don't we look there to be a little bit more 
adventuresome entrepreneurial? The private sector's got a 
balance sheet that is strong. The markets show that. The 
balance sheet here is terrible and getting worse by the year. 
It's gone from 20 trillion maybe to 30 trillion in terms of 
debt and we are not savers and investors anymore, we're 
spenders and consumers.
    So why don't we tap through public/private partnerships, 
the capital that's out there, and put that to work and allow 
states like Indiana and others that are savers to maybe have 
more access to Federal dollars if they put more skin in the 
game?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Well, as you note, in Indiana, things 
were a little different when I was mayor. We did our budget in 
cash.
    There are some different principles that apply to Federal 
budgeting. If we can unlock private capital in a responsible 
way without sacrificing public policy goals or goods, we ought 
to.
    On the other hand, it's the markets above all that remind 
us that Federal debt isn't like any other kind of debt, and I 
would make sure that we don't put ourselves in the position of 
a business that could have made a great investment but didn't 
because they didn't think it was permissible to do so.
    Senator Braun. The modern monetary theory I debated Senator 
Sanders for about 25 minutes a month ago on. If you're bored 
some evening, take a peek at that and see the difference of 
opinion on how we can keep running these deficits and then 
turning it into Federal debt when we don't have the willpower 
generally now that we had coming out of World War II, again 
where we were savers and investors, not spenders and consumers.
    I always enjoy the conversation.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Likewise, thank you.
    Senator Schatz. Love to see the Indiana friends spar.
    A couple of questions about safety after the two crashes of 
the 737 Max. The Aircraft Certification Safety and 
Accountability Act was included in the Omnibus and it reflected 
recommendations from numerous audits. Many of the critical 
provisions in that bill require funding, but the budget 
request, a $17 million increase for aviation safety well below 
the $75 million authorized.
    So I want you to speak to that discrepancy but also just 
this general sense that folks have regarding the FAA and the 
extent to which it views itself as a separate Cabinet agency 
from the agency that you run.
    I am all for the independence of expert agencies, but I 
still think they belong under your oversight and under our 
oversight and there is a sense, it may or may not be true, but 
there is a sense of almost impunity with which they operate, 
that they're not accountable certainly to the Congress or even 
the Office of the Secretary, and I'm wondering if you might be 
willing to address that as delicately as you want.
    Secretary Buttigieg. The Federal Aviation Administration 
(FAA) is a constituent modal agency of the U.S. Department of 
Transportation. There's has been a lot of Congressional 
interest in the FAA and an expectation that the FAA will be 
responsive to Congress. I also expect that the FAA will be 
responsive to Congress and responsive to the Department 
whenever any oversight issues come up.
    With regard to the numbers, I would just note that, in 
addition to $17.5 million specifically for improving aviation 
safety oversight, there's also a $57 million increase envision 
for the aviation safety organization as a whole. Of course, 
funding is only part of the equation when it comes to making 
sure those safety imperatives are met, and that's where 
oversight comes in.
    Senator Schatz. Yeah. I just think we need more regulatory 
staff. If you're going to enforce the law, you need people to 
do so, and you need to be able to deploy them to various places 
across the country.
    The budget request of $51 million for Vehicle Safety 
Programs, you spoke a little bit with Senator Boozman, I think, 
about the increase in traffic fatalities.
    I'm a little worried that we're focusing on vehicle safety 
when it seems like we've got a problem of driver behavior, 
right, and I'm wondering if you could speak to that particular 
discrepancy but also just generally.
    I know you don't want to get in front of any analysis from 
your experts, but something is going on with traffic fatalities 
skyrocketing as they are. It's absolutely counterintuitive. It 
doesn't at least on its face necessarily appear to be just 
people on their phones which would have been my instinct.
    So I just don't know what's going on, and I don't want to 
wait 3 years to find out what it is if you have an inkling of 
what you think is going on and how we can get in front of it.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I hesitate to share an inkling in a 
Senate committee, but we know that speed is often a factor. It 
may be that the reduced traffic as a consequence of COVID-19 
led to increased opportunities for speeding, and one of the 
things we're hoping to assess is whether the data bears out 
that hypothesis.
    We know that impaired driving, speeding, and failure to 
wear a seatbelt all seem to be among the main behaviors that 
drove the increase and as you say, it's alarming. The fatality 
rate for 2020 was 1.37 per hundred million vehicle miles 
traveled which is up from 1.11 just the year before.
    As you mentioned, vehicle safety is one thing. Then there's 
driver safety and then there's system safety. How are the roads 
designed and are they inclined to make it more or less likely 
that there will be a fatal crash?
    We need to invest in all of those. The American Jobs Plan 
envisions $19 billion for safety that would help improve not 
only the safety of those who are in the vehicle but those who 
are anywhere near a vehicle, like pedestrians or bicyclists.
    Senator Schatz. This wasn't in my prepared questions, but 
as a television watcher and also an Internet user, I wonder 
what--you know, you see these Federal DOT-funded wear your 
seatbelt and don't drunk driver television commercials.
    Are you in other channels now because it seems to me that 
anyone who's in the communications business needs to worry 
about the extent to which plenty of people don't going to watch 
TV anymore?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Yeah. I don't know whether it happened 
on its own or whether the algorithms figured out what I do for 
a living, but I have noticed a little more on things like Hulu 
that messages coming out of NHTSA are popping up.
    I'll look into how we are getting into other media because 
you're absolutely right that, especially given that age is an 
important factor in the data for risk, we can't assume that the 
targeted audience is watching television on the television.
    Senator Schatz. Thank you very much.
    Senator Collins.
    Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, as I'm sure you know, the FAA has a next 
generation air traffic system called NextGEN. It is intended to 
modernize our nation's air traffic control system, to provide 
safer, more efficient, less polluting routes, and to use 
arrival and departure paths that will improve air space 
utilization.
    So every year that I've been on this committee, this 
subcommittee, we have appropriated another billion dollars, it 
seems, for FAA to implement NextGEN. So since 2007, Congress 
has appropriated $13 billion.
    So you can understand my dismay when I read a March 30th of 
this year report by the Office of the Inspector General that 
indicates that the system has not lived up to its promise.
    Now part of it is that there have been COVID impacts. There 
has been more traffic, but nevertheless the bottom line is not 
an encouraging one, and the Inspector General says, ``We were 
not able to identify any clear improvement to operations 
overall. Instead, overall operations appear to have become less 
efficient with average taxi time, departure delays, and arrival 
delays all increasing over this period.''
    If NextGEN worked as intended, we should see all of those 
trends going in the other direction and by using performance-
based navigation, we could also assist in combating climate 
change by promoting greater fuel savings and reduced emissions.
    So what's going on with NextGEN that we poured $13 billion 
and this is the result?
    Secretary Buttigieg. Overhauling the entirety of the air 
traffic system for any country, but certainly for this country 
is a massive undertaking. Congress has high expectations, I 
know, of NextGEN implementation, as do I. That implementation 
is an ongoing process and not something that is simply from the 
``before'' state to the ``after'' state change can be said now 
we're there.
    There are a lot of pieces coming into place and the funding 
request in the President's budget advances that. This is very 
important for the efficiency reasons that you mentioned, 
including that climate benefit of reduced air time. I've seen 
estimates suggesting about 15 percent fuel savings just from 
more efficient routing, and we would hope to realize that as 
well as some of the other efficiency gains that you were 
mentioning from a fully-implemented NextGEN reality.
    I will continue to consider this a priority for our 
expectations of the FAA and do everything we can to keep 
Congress updated on progress being made.
    Senator Collins. That would be helpful. As you can imagine, 
a billion dollars is a lot of money year after year after year, 
though it doesn't seem so in this environment anymore, but it 
used to be a lot of money, and to have push for this money year 
after year after year and then see such poor results is very 
disturbing. So I hope you will look into that.
    I want to go to the issue next that Senator Jack Reed 
raised. When I was flying back from Bangor, Maine, this 
weekend, the two flight attendants sat down and talked to me 
about the mask mandate and one of them, frankly, was frightened 
about what would happen if she tries to enforce the mask 
mandate and the violence we have seen is horrendous and 
unthinkable and I join Senator Reed in saying that I hope 
people will be prosecuted for the violence that we've seen on 
videos.
    However, both of the flight attendants raised with me the 
issue of why is there still a mask mandate for airlines. The 
CDC recently released recommendations significantly curtailing 
mask requirements in both indoor and outdoor settings, and as 
one passenger said to me, I can go sit at a bar and drink for 
hours at a crowded bar now without wearing a mask and yet I 
can't take a short flight from Bangor to Washington without 
wearing my mask, despite the fact that the airplane has a far 
better ventilation system than that crowded bar.
    And I thought it was a very good question. I understand 
that these decisions require an interagency process that 
includes the CDC, DHS, and DOT, but could you discuss the 
process for potentially lifting the mask mandate for air travel 
provided that certain--I guess I'd like to know what are the 
benchmarks or metrics that you're going to use given that the 
CDC has lifted it in other places.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Thank you for your expression of 
support for flight attendants. I cannot emphasize enough how 
seriously we take unruly behavior, and with the zero tolerance 
policy, those who disrupt flight operations or cause harm or 
are disrespecting and violating laws and regulations face fines 
of up to $35,000. We want to make sure that it is not it's left 
to the flight attendants alone to enforce mask mandates or any 
other FAA regulation.
    As to the mask mandates on planes, like many of the 
traveling public, especially as I'm traveling more and more, I 
share the impatience to be able to return to where they're not 
required.
    As you mentioned, this is an interagency process. It's 
really driven by public health experts and we do everything we 
can to run with that. They point to some differences and 
uniqueness in the context of travel related to the number of 
people from different places passing through the same small 
space; a couple things would be different from the bar example.
    One would be the presence of children onboard, knowing that 
there's not yet a vaccine approved for children. Another is 
that if I'm not too sure about the person sitting next to me in 
the bar, I can get up and leave, but it's not the same in a 
moving aircraft.
    That being said, I do think this is something that we need 
to continue to revisit. While I haven't seen a specific rubric 
that says if we hit this benchmark, then we can say goodbye to 
the masks, which I think we're all eager to do.
    The sooner we get as many people as possible vaccinated, 
the sooner we can get there and that's one of the reasons we're 
continuing to push on that.
    Senator Collins. Thank you. I have another mask-related 
question which I'm going to submit for the record, but just to 
give you the outlines of it, I'm hearing from commercial vessel 
operators, like barges and tugs, from Portland Harbor that they 
find the guidance on masks to be very inconsistent and 
confusing and apparently the Coast Guard has a lot of 
enforcement discretion and these operators of the tugs and 
barges really don't want that kind of situation because they 
don't know what rules they're supposed to follow if the Coast 
Guard has discretion on enforcement.
    So I will provide you with further information but would 
appreciate your getting back to me.
    Secretary Buttigieg. Okay.
    Senator Collins. For the record on that, and, finally, I 
just want to echo what the Chairman said about the university 
transportation centers.
    I'm very proud of the work that's being done under Hoby 
Doger's leadership at the University of Maine. It's truly 
absolutely extraordinary and some of this is the use of 
sustainable advanced manufacturing structures, construction 
methods, and it's resulted in real-world applications that 
extend the life of bridges, in particular reduce the carbon 
footprint of our transportation infrastructure projects.
    Just recently, I went to the dedication of a bridge in 
Herman, Maine, a short bridge that used all of these advanced 
materials. Instead of steel girders, it had composite girders 
and the asphalt is such that it won't have to be jack hammered 
off when it needs to be replaced. Believe it or not, it's sort 
of screwed on and so this is so innovative and so exciting and 
this bridge is supposed to last for like a hundred years 
because of the new materials.
    But I share the Chairman's concern that although the 
university's done a great job of trying to commercialize and 
get this material out into the marketplace that it's hard to 
make that transition from the laboratory to the real-life 
application. I think the University of Maine's done a great job 
at it but that's something that I think we really should look 
at expanding the funding for the commercialization of those 
materials.
    So I just wanted to second what the Chairman said and 
encourage you to take a look at that.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I enthusiastically share your interest 
in that and would welcome chances to work together on it.
    Senator Collins. Great. Well, we'll have you up to the 
University of Maine at some point.
    Secretary Buttigieg. I'd love it.
    Senator Collins. Because it truly is extraordinary, the 
work that is being done there.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Schatz. Either right after or right before the 
University of Hawaii.
    Senator Collins. Actually a Maine to Hawaii trip, you know.
    Secretary Buttigieg. That's very nice.
    Senator Schatz. Pick the right month. Secretary Buttigieg, 
I want to thank you for coming today to discuss the fiscal year 
2022 Budget Request.

                     ADDITIONAL COMMITTEE QUESTIONS

    The hearing record will remain open until Friday, June 
25th, to allow members to submit additional questions for the 
record.
            Questions Submitted by Senator Patrick J. Leahy
    Question. A more substantial and expedient transition towards 
electric and zero-emission transportation is critical to address the 
worsening impacts of climate change. As costs of electric vehicle (EV) 
technology continue to incrementally decrease, it has become easier and 
easier for Americans to purchase EVs. However, in parts of the country 
where colder temperatures reduce battery range, many buyers are 
apprehensive about purchasing an EV as their primary mode of 
transportation. Particularly in largely rural and car-dependent 
communities, like those in Vermont, reduced battery range during the 
winter poses a significant obstacle for many drivers.
    An effective remedy for this challenge is a more comprehensive EV 
charging station infrastructure. The Department of Transportation's FY 
2022 budget request includes a request for $15 billion over five years 
to be spent on EV charging infrastructure. The Federal Highway 
Administration's (FHWA) Alternative Fuel Corridor designation has the 
potential to support and incentivize the construction of new EV 
charging infrastructure on some of the most-trafficked highways.
    How will the Department ensure that EV charging infrastructure 
funding is appropriately disbursed geographically to allow the most 
car-dependent communities--specifically in colder and rural areas--to 
transition to zero emission transportation?
    Answer. Equitably distributing EV infrastructure to communities 
that rely most on cars is very important. FHWA's Alternative Fuel 
Corridors for EV infrastructure include existing and pending corridors 
through rural areas and colder climates. DOT is focused on ensuring 
that the pending corridors that do not yet have sufficient EV chargers 
are completed. Additionally, DOT will capitalize on our partnership 
with the Department of Energy and other Tribal, State, and local 
governments to identify the most beneficial locations for EV 
infrastructure. DOT is also developing a rural EV toolkit which will 
help guide rural communities that are interested in installing EV 
charging infrastructure. This builds on the Department's Rural 
Opportunities to Use Transportation for Economic Success (ROUTES) 
initiative to provide technical assistance to rural communities 
interested in DOT programs.
    Question. Specifically, how will the Department use this new 
funding to better utilize the alternative fuel corridor program to 
facilitate the adoption of EVs across a broader range of communities 
and to connect more distant and rural areas to surrounding urban hubs?
    Answer. DOT is focused on ensuring that corridors are completed in 
order to provide for viable highway EV travel nationwide. DOT plans to 
collaborate with partners and stakeholders to identify the best 
locations for the installation of new EV infrastructure that will best 
serve EV users across the country and provide connections between rural 
and urban communities.

                                 ______
                                 

            Questions Submitted by Senator Susan M. Collins
    Question. Commercial vessels (both passenger and non-passenger) 
find the CDC guidance on mask mandates for indoor and outdoor areas to 
be very inconsistent and confusing. From a regulatory perspective, the 
guidance gives U.S. Coast Guard Sector Commanders broad enforcement 
discretion that has the potential for creating a patchwork of 
conflicting interpretations. The U.S. Coast Guard's issuance is merely 
guidance, however, and the CDC mask order remains in place for 
commercial vessels. What is DOT's role in mask mandates for commercial 
vessels?
    Answer. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), through the U.S. 
Coast Guard, has the statutory authority for the safety of commercial 
vessels. DOT therefore does not have a regulatory role in determining 
or enforcing the CDC mask requirements for vessels. Through DOT's 
Maritime Administration, DOT does manage the readiness of Federal 
sealift assets such as Ready Reserve Force ships. DOT applies all 
applicable mask requirements mandated by the CDC.
    Question. What more can DOT be doing to help lift the mask mandate 
for commercial vessels and create more certainty for commercial vessel 
operators?
    Answer. DOT is working very closely with the transportation 
industry and Federal partners to keep transportation networks safe and 
operational while the Nation combats COVID-19. This includes working 
with DHS, which has statutory authority for the safety of commercial 
vessels to apply all applicable mandates to the Federal sealift assets 
within the DOT purview and, through continued engagement with 
interagency partners and the maritime industry on Federal COVID-19 
response, provide timely information and assistance to stakeholders.

                                 ______
                                 

               Questions Submitted by Senator Mike Braun
    Question. Sec. 24405 of the FAST Act of 2015 created a streamlined 
regulatory structure to enable small volume motor vehicle manufacturers 
to produce brand-new classically styled replica cars that meet current 
emissions standards.
    American companies will be able to manufacture everything from 
1930s hot rods to 1960s cobras to DeLoreans of the 1980s. EPA and the 
California Air Resources Board have completed their guidance and 
regulations, but companies can't start building vehicles and hiring 
workers until NHTSA's Jan. 15th final rule has been approved and 
published in the Federal Register.
    NHTSA did its due diligence on this rulemaking, completing a robust 
public comment process. The Biden Administration's Spring Regulatory 
Agenda states that the rule will be finalized in January 2022.
    Can you provide an update as to when you estimate the rule will be 
finalized?
    Answer. NHTSA is working to finalize this rulemaking by early this 
year.

                          SUBCOMMITTEE RECESS

    Senator Schatz. This hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:02 p.m., Wednesday, June 16, the 
subcommitteee was recessed, to reconvene at a time subject to 
the call of the Chair.]

       LIST OF WITNESSES, COMMUNICATIONS, AND PREPARED STATEMENTS

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Boozman, Senator John, U.S. Senator from Arkansas, Questions 
  Submitted by...................................................
  42.............................................................
Braun, Senator Mike, U.S. Senator from Indiana, Questions 
  Submitted by...................................................
  77.............................................................
Buttigieg, Hon. Pete, Secretary, Department of Transportation....
  47.............................................................
    Prepared Statement of........................................
      52.........................................................
    Summary Statement of.........................................
      50.........................................................

Capito, Senator Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from West Virginia, 
  Questions Submitted by.........................................
  43.............................................................
Collins, Senator Susan M., U.S. Senator from Maine:
    Questions Submitted by.......................................
      77.........................................................
    Statement of 

Fudge, Hon. Marcia, Secretary, Department of Housing and Urban 
  Development....................................................
  1..............................................................
    Prepared Statement of........................................
      6..........................................................
    Summary Statement of.........................................
      4..........................................................

Leahy, Senator Patrick J., U.S. Senator from Vermont, Questions 
  Submitted by 


Reed, Senator Jack, U.S. Senator from Rhode Island, Questions 
  Submitted by...................................................
  34.............................................................

Schatz, Senator Brian, U.S. Senator from Hawaii:
    Opening Statement of 

    Questions Submitted by.......................................
      28.........................................................

Van Hollen, Senator Chris, U.S. Senator from Maryland, Questions 
  Submitted by...................................................
  36.............................................................

                             SUBJECT INDEX

                              ----------                              

              DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

                                                                   Page

Additional Committee Questions...................................
  28.............................................................
Advance Housing Equity as a Means to Improving Housing Choices 
  and Greater Economic Opportunity...............................
  8..............................................................
Climate Resilience...............................................
  29.............................................................
COVID-19:
    Advance Loan Modification....................................
      44.........................................................
    COVID-19 Pandemic............................................
      6..........................................................
Energy and Water Efficiency......................................
  30.............................................................
Home Equity Conversion Mortgage COVID-19 Extensions..............
  44.............................................................
Increase the Production of and Access to Affordable Housing......
  9..............................................................
President Biden's 2022 Budget....................................
  7..............................................................
Promote Climate Resilience, Environmental Justice, and Energy 
  Efficiency Across the Housing Sector...........................
  9..............................................................
Strengthen HUD's Internal Capacity to Deliver on Mission.........
  10.............................................................
Strengthen and Broaden the Federal Housing Safety Net for People 
  in Need........................................................
  8..............................................................

                                 [all]