[Senate Hearing 117-118]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                    S. Hrg. 117-118

  EXAMINING WAYS TO STRENGTHEN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT IN INNOVATIVE 
 TRANSPORTATION TECHNOLOGIES, WITH A FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS THAT DECREASE 
 EMISSIONS, REDUCE OUR RELIANCE ON FOREIGN SUPPLY CHAINS, AND INCREASE 
                   MANUFACTURING IN THE UNITED STATES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               ----------                              

                             MARCH 16, 2021

                               ---------- 
                               
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               


                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
               
                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
43-854                       WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon                    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine            JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
                                     ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                      Renae Black, Staff Director
                      Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
                Zahava Urecki, Professional Staff Member
             Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
              Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
      Justin Memmott, Republican Deputy Staff Director for Energy
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West 
  Virginia.......................................................     1
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico............     1
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from 
  Wyoming........................................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Speakes-Backman, Kelly, Acting Assistant Secretary, Energy 
  Efficiency and Renewable Energy, U.S. Department of Energy.....     5
Muellerweiss, E. Adam, President, Responsible Battery Coalition, 
  and Chief Sustainability Officer, Clarios......................    15
Nkurunziza, Janvier Desire, Officer-in-Charge, Commodities 
  Branch, and Chief, Commodity Research and Analysis Section, 
  Division on International Trade and Commodities, United Nations 
  Conference on Trade and Development............................    22
Satterthwaite, Tony, Vice Chairman, Cummins Inc..................   103
Wimmer, Robert, Director, Energy and Environmental Research, 
  Toyota Motor North America, Inc................................   110

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

ACT/The App Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   216
American Public Power Association et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   218
Barrasso, Hon. John:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
Britton, Joe:
    Op-ed entitled ``The Electric Vehicle Revolution Critics 
      Can't Dispute'' published in The Hill on 2/19/2021.........   220
Diesel Technology Forum:
    Letter for the Record........................................   223
European Commission Joint Research Centre:
    Technical Report entitled ``Responsible and Sustainable 
      Sourcing of Battery Raw Materials'' published in 2020......   231
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Herrington, Richard et al.:
    Letter to UK Committee on Climate Change, dated June 3, 2019.   353
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Muellerweiss, E. Adam:
    Opening Statement............................................    15
    Written Testimony............................................    17
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   184
National Association of Convenience Stores et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   138
National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   357
Nkurunziza, Janvier Desire:
    Opening Statement............................................    22
    Written Testimony and attached UNCTAD report on strategic 
      battery raw materials......................................    24
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   194
Our Children's Trust:
    Materials for the Record.....................................   359
Satterthwaite, Tony:
    Opening Statement............................................   103
    Written Testimony............................................   105
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   199
Speakes-Backman, Kelly:
    Opening Statement............................................     5
    Written Testimony............................................     8
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   148
Tirone, Jonathan:
    Bloomberg article entitled ``Electric Cars Will Cost More 
      Using Ethically Sourced Batteries'' dated 3/13/2021........   144
Wimmer, Robert:
    Opening Statement............................................   110
    Written Testimony............................................   112
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   206
Zero Emission Transportation Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   457

 
  EXAMINING WAYS TO STRENGTHEN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT IN INNOVATIVE 
 TRANSPORTATION TECHNOLOGIES, WITH A FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS THAT DECREASE 
 EMISSIONS, REDUCE OUR RELIANCE ON FOREIGN SUPPLY CHAINS, AND INCREASE 
                   MANUFACTURING IN THE UNITED STATES

                              ----------                              


                        TUESDAY, MARCH 16, 2021

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:34 a.m. in Room 
SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin III, 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, 
                U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

    The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
    Before we get started, I would like to recognize my dear 
friend, Senator Heinrich. He has a little announcement he wants 
to make.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO

    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
    I wanted to just take a brief moment to recognize my long-
time Senior Legislative Assistant on this Committee, Dr. Dan 
Alpert, who is retiring after a distinguished 23-year career 
here in the Senate. We all know that our work on this Committee 
and for our constituents would be absolutely impossible without 
the dedicated and knowledgeable staff that we have here on this 
Committee and that is especially true in the case of Dan 
Alpert.
    Dan has been absolutely essential to my work on this 
Committee in support of our national labs where, by the way, he 
worked for 20 years before he worked for the Senate for 23. He 
has allowed me to really invest in the development and 
deployment of innovative clean energy technologies with his 
knowledge and just as important, I think, Dan has been a really 
wonderful mentor and friend to a countless number of colleagues 
and constituents here in the Senate.
    His whip-smart intelligence and dry sense of humor are 
fully matched by his kind heart, and I know I speak for my 
entire team, as well as Senator Jeff Bingaman's office before 
us, and many others on this Committee in saying that we will 
miss you terribly, Dan, but I am so happy to congratulate you 
on your retirement and we all wish you well as you set off on 
new adventures and more time spent with your sweetheart, Ann.
    Thank you, Dan.
    [Applause.]
    The Chairman. Thank you, Doctor. We really do appreciate 
you. I was wondering why Martin was so smart. Now I know.
    Senator Heinrich. You weren't supposed to tell anyone.
    [Laughter.]
    The Chairman. The United States has been a leader of 
innovation in the transportation sector since Robert Fulton 
created the first commercially successful steamboat in 1807. 
From the Wright Brothers and Henry Ford's assembly line to the 
successful flight of the Apollo 11 spacecraft, American 
ingenuity has been leading the way to transform how our society 
moves people and goods. As we face the climate challenge, 
American innovation in transportation technologies will once 
again lead the way in the vehicles and fuels of the future.
    The transportation sector accounts for nearly 30 percent of 
the United States' energy consumption and it is responsible for 
the largest share--28 percent--of the country's greenhouse gas 
emissions. And that is something we do not talk about much, but 
needs to be known. Last Congress, this Committee considered the 
many bills that formed the bipartisan American Energy 
Innovation Act, which was ultimately largely enacted as the 
Energy Act of 2020. While I am so proud of all the things we 
were able to get done in the final bill, not everything made it 
across the finish line, including our vehicle's titles. If we 
want to reach any climate goal, we need to look at where the 
emissions are coming from and seek out solutions. At 28 percent 
of our emissions, it is clear that we have got to get to work 
on the transportation sector, and it is disappointing that we 
were not able to move the legislation last year.
    So today, we begin attending to important unfinished work 
because our Committee has a critical role to play in ensuring 
that we have the technologies, the materials, and the domestic 
manufacturing needed to decarbonize our transportation sector. 
Whether it is electrolyzers that produce hydrogen from water or 
the batteries that power electric vehicles, we have to advance 
the technologies needed for the vehicles of the future and 
their supply chains. The United States can and should be the 
leader in clean transportation with help from research and 
development at the Department of Energy and the national labs. 
In addition, the opportunities for manufacturing and 
sustainable transportation technologies are plentiful and can 
create good-paying jobs right here at home when we need them 
most.
    My American Jobs in Energy Manufacturing Act would help 
foster that economic growth by reviving the 48C energy 
manufacturing tax credit and carving out $4 billion for 
exclusive use in coal communities, driving those jobs into the 
areas that have seen the biggest economic impact of the 
transition to a cleaner energy future. I also firmly believe 
that we need to decrease our reliance on foreign supply chains 
to build these next generation technologies. While I recognize 
the value of electric vehicles to help reduce emissions, I 
remain deeply concerned that just a handful of countries, some 
of which have questionable mining practices, are the 
gatekeepers for the critical minerals we need to build the 
batteries used to power them.
    We cannot stick our head in the sand about that. We have 
stronger environmental and workforce protection laws 
domestically than many of the countries that we rely on for 
these critical minerals. I believe that responsible domestic 
sourcing of the critical minerals needed for these cleaner 
technologies has to be part of this transition to a clean 
energy future. I am also concerned that we are quickly 
approaching the first cycle of batteries reaching the end of 
their usable life in the EV without the ability to recycle them 
domestically. So I am working on legislation that would boost 
DOE's role in advancing the recycling of the second life 
applications for EV batteries.
    Ultimately, there is a lot of work yet to be done to reduce 
emissions in the transportation sector. As the sector of our 
economy emitting the most, we have got to get to work--whatever 
the fuels and the vehicles of the future will be--to advance 
the technologies that are going to be needed and shore up those 
supply chains.
    I would like now for Senator Barrasso to give his opening 
statement.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

    Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 
Thanks for holding today's critical hearing.
    Our transportation sector is critical to our economy, and 
it moves people and products reliably and affordably across a 
huge network of roads and rails and runways and rivers. The 
transportation sector is also a big energy user, consuming 28 
percent of our nation's total demand. Now, there are a lot of 
exciting new technologies to make this sector cleaner and more 
efficient, and I believe that innovation, not regulation, is 
the best way to improve our country's mobility. We need to 
expand, not limit choices in the transportation sector. If we 
have learned anything, it is that the government does a pretty 
poor job when it comes to picking winners and losers. So we 
should encourage a variety of technologies that reduce costs 
for consumers, that lower emissions, and that take advantage of 
the vast energy and mineral resources that we have in this 
country. Now, it seems to me that President Biden is taking the 
opposite approach. I am concerned he wants to regulate the 
internal combustion engine out of existence and insist that all 
Americans use electric vehicles.
    Too often, regulation raises costs, punishes people. These 
are people that are often those who can least afford it. In 
December, the President of Toyota pointed out that regulating 
the internal combustion engine out of existence could make 
automobiles ``a flower,'' he said, ``on a high summit.'' In 
other words, something out of reach of ordinary people. Well, 
he's right. In the United States, a typical Tesla owner has no 
children and makes an annual income of more than $140,000. 
Limiting consumer options to just expensive electric vehicles 
is bad for consumers and the economy. It is bad for the 
environment too, and it will just slow the turnover to a 
cleaner, more efficient fleet.
    Requiring a shift to electric vehicles will also put 
America in the position of importing critical minerals, often 
from bad actors. We will need to import minerals like cobalt, 
lithium, graphite, manganese, and other rare earths. China, for 
example, controlled about 60 percent of the graphite and rare 
earths produced in 2020. At the same time, we must not pursue 
emission reduction strategies that contribute to child labor, 
human rights abuses, and environmental damage. For example, the 
Democratic Republic of the Congo produces about 70 percent of 
the world's cobalt supply. According to the United Nation's 
report, about 20 percent of the cobalt it produces comes from 
small mines where 40,000 children are at work.
    In the lithium production area of Chile, mining consumed 65 
percent of the area's water, causing soil contamination and 
harming local communities.
    If President Biden and others in Congress are serious about 
promoting electric vehicles, they should encourage mining here 
at home. Expanding American mining would help secure our 
nation's supply chains and ensure minerals are produced 
responsibly. Instead, last month, the Biden Administration 
withdrew a land exchange for the Resolution Copper mine in 
Arizona, casting doubt on what would be North America's largest 
copper mine.
    Electric vehicles are part of the solution. They are not 
the only solution. More efficient internal combustion engines 
and a diverse set of fuels will have to be a significant part 
of the solution. That is especially true for heavy trucks, 
buses, trains, and vessels. And in trucking and rail, diesel 
engines are likely to remain the technology of choice for 
decades. We can reduce emissions through the use of clean 
diesel and even renewable diesel.
    We can also reduce emissions through the use of natural 
gas. The United States produces more natural gas than any other 
country in the world. We should look for ways to use compressed 
or liquefied natural gas to power trucks, trains, and vessels. 
Additionally, we can convert natural gas to hydrogen for use in 
fuel cells. Natural gas is a great opportunity to keep costs 
low for consumers, to improve air quality, and to use the 
resources that America is blessed with.
    The people of Wyoming drive greater distances than people 
in any other state, by far. We depend on our vehicles in ways 
people from other states do not. Our cars and trucks must be 
reliable and affordable. When alternative vehicles and fuels 
can pass the test in Wyoming, we will know we have hit upon 
great technologies. Until then, consumers in Wyoming and across 
the country need to be able to drive the cars and trucks they 
require for them to get to work and for their families.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the testimony.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    It is now my pleasure to introduce our panel to us. We have 
a distinguished panel and I think it is going to be quite 
informative. I thank each and every one of you.
    We have Ms. Kelly Speakes-Backman, Principal Deputy 
Assistant Secretary and Acting Assistant Secretary for Energy 
Efficiency and Renewable Energy at the Department of Energy.
    Mr. Adam--and I hope I don't destroy the last names here, 
but I am going to do the best I can--Muellerweiss, who is the 
Chief Sustainability Officer at Clarios, a battery supplier and 
manufacturer.
    We have Mr. Janvier Nkurunziza, Officer-in-Charge of the 
Commodities Branch and Chief of the Commodity Research and 
Analysis Section of the Division of the International Trade and 
Commodities at the United Nations Conference on Trade and 
Development. And Mr. Nkurunziza, based on your affiliation with 
the United Nations, I would also like to note that you are 
appearing voluntarily today as a courtesy to this Committee.
    Mr. Tony Satterthwaite, Vice Chairman of Cummins Inc.
    And Mr. Robert Wimmer, Director of the Energy and 
Environmental Research Group at Toyota Motor North America.
    I want to thank you all. First, I apologize if I did not 
get the names, last names, correctly pronounced, but I want to 
thank you for being here in person and also virtually. I look 
forward to the discussion today.
    With that, I am going to turn to our first witness here and 
panelist, Mrs. Speakes-Backman, for her opening statement.

STATEMENT OF KELLY SPEAKES-BACKMAN, ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY, 
  ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 
                             ENERGY

    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Chairman Manchin and Ranking Member 
Barrasso, thank you so much for the opportunity to testify on 
transportation technologies today. As you mentioned, I'm Kelly 
Speakes-Backman. I am the Acting Assistant Secretary for the 
Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE). As 
Acting Assistant Secretary, I oversee a broad portfolio of 
energy efficiency and renewable programs. The technologies in 
my portfolio advance America's economic growth and energy 
security while enhancing the reliability and the resilience of 
the U.S. energy system.
    Climate change is one of the greatest challenges facing our 
nation and our planet today. DOE stands ready to work to 
address the climate emergency by doing its part to support the 
U.S. to build a 100 percent clean energy economy and reach net 
zero emissions, no later than 2050. We must also ensure that 
the benefits from a clean energy future are equitably shared by 
all Americans for clean air and good-paying jobs, from farmers 
to factory workers, and from cities to the rural economy. EERE 
is well-positioned to drive the research and development, and I 
will underscore the demonstration and the deployment needed to 
overcome these challenges while reducing harmful emissions that 
disproportionately affect lower income and minority 
populations. EERE-led demonstrations and deployments can also 
show how we can integrate new technologies to expand access to 
transportation for underserved communities.
    Transportation has become the largest source of greenhouse 
gas emissions in the U.S., surpassing the power sector in 2017. 
Transportation is central to our economy. It supports millions 
of U.S. jobs and is part of everyday life for all Americans. We 
are committed to developing the technologies needed to 
decarbonize the transportation sector and to do so in a way 
that is affordable, expands mobility options for underserved 
communities, keeps us globally competitive and our nation 
secure, and creates good-paying, middle class, American jobs.
    Our sustainable transportation strategy to decarbonize the 
sector includes all modes. That is air, sea, rail, and road. It 
encompasses activities in the fuel streams of electricity, 
electrification, hydrogen and fuel cells, and biofuels. We must 
deploy technologies in all of these resources to be successful 
in our efforts. For this reason, today I will focus on work 
underway with the electric vehicles, biofuels, and hydrogen 
offices. These are not stand-alone topics and they bring up 
important conversations, I should add, about critical material 
supply chains and grid integration.
    Electrification is one of the most effective ways that we 
can combat climate change. Our success with electric vehicles 
is largely dependent upon advancements in battery technologies. 
Our Vehicle Technologies Office R&D investments throughout the 
past decade have yielded breakthroughs in battery cost and 
performance, reducing lithium-ion EV battery costs by about 85 
percent, from $1,000 a kilowatt-hour in 2008 to only $144 a 
kilowatt-hour in 2020; and driving down weight and enhancing 
manufacturability as well. DOE's goal is to lower the battery 
pack cost to below $80 per kilowatt-hour, and cell cost to $60 
per kilowatt-hour, allowing EVs to reach cost competitiveness 
with future internal combustion engine vehicles. It's important 
that EVs are not just a luxury, but the most affordable and 
accessible choice for all Americans.
    Biofuels are also a crucial part of the nation's energy 
system, and we see growing opportunities for biomass in the 
low-carbon transportation system, especially for aviation. In 
2019, the U.S. produced over 19 billion gallons of biofuels and 
supported over 106,000 domestic jobs. The vast majority of 
these biofuels are ethanol and biodiesel, which are blended 
into petroleum gasoline and petroleum diesel fuel, 
respectively. The domestic biofuels industry faced significant 
challenges this past year due to reduced demand for 
transportation fuels as a result of the global pandemic. There 
are important opportunities to recover from this setback and 
expand the role of biomass for our rural farm economies. 
Supporting these communities and expanding job opportunities 
from biorefineries of the future is an important part of the 
President's plan.
    Hydrogen is also a key part of our transportation strategy, 
as a versatile fuel that can play an important role to 
decarbonize key industrial sectors, provide new energy storage 
options, and support the move to 100 percent clean energy 
electricity production. Realizing the potential for hydrogen is 
going to require continued research and development as well as 
accelerated demonstrations and deployments with the private 
sector to achieve scale. That's the basis of our ``H2@Scale'' 
efforts to reduce hydrogen production costs to benefit all end-
users, including industrial and transportation applications.
    Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today. 
I look forward to working with you to address the climate 
crisis and providing American families and businesses with a 
wider range of energy and mobility options that offer more 
affordability, more reliability, and more security of our 
nation's energy.
    I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Speakes-Backman follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Speakes-Backman.
    And now we will have Mr. Muellerweiss for his opening 
statement.

   STATEMENT OF E. ADAM MUELLERWEISS, PRESIDENT, RESPONSIBLE 
  BATTERY COALITION, AND CHIEF SUSTAINABILITY OFFICER, CLARIOS

    Mr. Muellerweiss. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member 
Barrasso, and distinguished members of the Committee, thank you 
for the invitation to testify today. I am Edmund Adam 
Muellerweiss, President of the Responsible Battery Coalition 
and Chief Sustainability Officer for Clarios.
    As part of our nation's critical infrastructure, my 
company, Clarios, is the world's largest producer of low-
voltage batteries essential for vehicles to start, perform 
efficiently, and keep people safe. Every vehicle requires the 
types of batteries we make, no matter if they are internal 
combustion, hybrid, or fully electric. Clarios is a member of 
the Responsible Battery Coalition, a leading group of 
companies, academics, and organizations dedicated to the 
responsible management of the batteries of today and tomorrow.
    There are three key points I will highlight today: Number 
one, modern life requires batteries, and the U.S. needs more of 
them. But there is no single technology that can satisfy these 
demands. Number two, to meet this need, we will need to take 
into account every stage of a battery's life, especially end of 
life and recycling. Number three, this creates opportunities 
for domestic job creation, material efficiency, and system-wide 
carbon reductions.
    Meeting increasing demand for transportation and stationary 
storage batteries is especially critical. The combined demand 
for transportation and stationary batteries is expected to 
increase fourfold by 2030. Projections suggest that by 2040, as 
many as two billion vehicles will be on the road globally, 
including both internal combustion and electric vehicles, with 
each requiring batteries. The batteries used in electric 
vehicles may look different than stationary storage, or bear 
little resemblance to the ones NASA used in the rover now on 
Mars, yet all of these batteries have one thing in common--they 
are a contained chemical reaction. Each battery chemistry has 
different characteristics and tradeoffs suitable for some 
applications and not others. Some use abundant, readily 
available, and recyclable materials, and others use rare 
materials with limited supply. That's why every aspect of a 
battery's life, from mining and manufacturing to end of life 
and recycling, must be considered as we work to protect supply 
chains, decrease greenhouse gas emissions, and reduce risk to 
human health and the environment.
    At Clarios, we do this every day. We make new batteries 
from the used batteries we collect and recycle. Our supply 
chain does not start around the world, but around the corner at 
your local car dealer, repair shop, or auto parts store, when a 
used lead-acid battery is exchanged for a new one. We design to 
maximize recyclability. For example, up to 99 percent of a used 
lead-acid battery from the plastic case to the active materials 
can be recycled to make new ones. This results in 90 percent 
lower greenhouse gas emissions. Because of this approach, the 
U.S. has nearly a 100 percent recycling rate ensuring reliable 
and secure domestic supplies to manufacturing new lead-acid 
batteries. Developing recycling for next generation batteries 
is equally critical, especially those that use materials that 
are in limited supply or come from unstable regions.
    Over the next 20 years, more than two million metric tons 
of used lithium-based batteries from electric vehicles will 
reach end of life in the U.S. alone. These batteries must be 
considered a critical resource, not a waste. Together, the 
Responsible Battery Coalition and Argonne National Lab are 
modeling to help design batteries for maximum recyclability 
before they go into production. Through the DOE's lithium-ion 
recycling prize, Clarios is applying our decades of experience 
in battery recycling to the challenge of recycling lithium 
batteries at scale. The ultimate goal is to capture 90 percent 
of discarded lithium-based batteries in the U.S. to recover key 
materials and reintroduce them into the supply chain to make 
new batteries. Establishing these critical supply chains will 
require U.S. jobs for recovery, processing, and recycling that 
are by definition local jobs.
    In closing, a life-cycle approach, from mining and 
manufacturing to end of life and recycling, is critical to 
protect supply chain, reduce emissions, and create new jobs. 
Responsible recycling is essential to complement the 
Administration's effort to ensure the supply of critical 
battery materials for the United States.
    Thank you again for this opportunity. I look forward to 
answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Muellerweiss follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    And now we have Mr. Nkurunziza for his opening statement.

  STATEMENT OF JANVIER DESIRE NKURUNZIZA, OFFICER-IN-CHARGE, 
COMMODITIES BRANCH, AND CHIEF, COMMODITY RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS 
   SECTION, DIVISION ON INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND COMMODITIES, 
       UNITED NATIONS CONFERENCE ON TRADE AND DEVELOPMENT

    Mr. Nkurunziza. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Barrasso, 
it is an honor to be with you. I thank you for reminding 
everyone that we are here on a voluntary basis. This should not 
be understood to be a waiver, express or implied, of the 
privileges and immunities of the United Nations and its 
officials under the 1946 Convention on the Privileges and 
Immunities of the United Nations. I am speaking in my personal 
capacity, and the opinions expressed here are my own.
    My intervention is structured around three points. The 
first point is to look at U.S. activity in the lithium and 
cobalt value chains. The key ingredient in the current 
innovative mobility paradigm is the electric rechargeable 
battery, particularly the lithium-ion battery. Two key natural 
resources are central to the production of these batteries. 
These are lithium and cobalt. Known reserves of these resources 
are in a few countries. Fifty-eight percent of lithium reserves 
are in Chile and 50 percent of cobalt reserves are in the 
Democratic Republic of Congo. Currently, production of cobalt 
and lithium from within United States is relatively limited, 
but things could change. There are opportunities found on the 
commodities value chains beyond extraction that could be taken 
advantage of and this takes me to the second point.
    What are these opportunities? I think the first is 
exploration. Some regions, particularly in Africa, are way 
underexplored. So there must be more deposits of these 
strategic resources in every region of the world. Extraction: 
There are technologies that are inefficient, opening the door 
for firms with better technologies. Lithium extraction in 
Chile, for example, is inefficiently extracted. Deposits in 
Bolivia are stranded due to technological issues. So new, more 
efficient technologies are being introduced and these will 
bring to bear a number of otherwise stranded assets. The other 
aspect is recycling and disposal. This area is underdeveloped 
and we think there are opportunities there.
    The United States has two advantages, its R&D capabilities 
and its financial industry. Developing countries, where these 
resources are located, just lack these two resources. They lack 
the technology. They lack the financial resources. So the U.S. 
can leverage these two advantages to be able to access these 
resources. These countries also need a new business model. They 
need a win-win joint venture model based on an impact investing 
model, as opposed to the traditional predatory model, 
especially in the mining sector. In this model, investment is 
judged not only by rate of return but also its impact where it 
takes place, especially its impact on the environment. U.S 
firms can champion this emerging trend, even in these 
developing countries, not just within the U.S. U.S. firms can 
also procure the raw materials and develop a value chain in the 
U.S. This is what other countries have been doing up to now. 
After all, the countries dominating lithium and cobalt value 
chains are not the major producers.
    The third point is fostering frictionless international 
trade. International trade allows developing countries to 
transform their natural resources into physical, human, and 
financial capital that they need for their development. Trade 
also allows importers like the United States to access the raw 
materials. So it is thanks to international trade that, except 
for Chile, no major producer-country is an exporter of lithium 
and cobalt-based products. China and Belgium account for 87 
percent of total cobalt oxide and hydroxide exports despite the 
fact they are not major producers of cobalt. The United States 
is the second largest exporter of lithium oxide and hydroxide, 
13 percent, behind China, 50 percent, and before Chile, 12 
percent. Thanks to its R&D and financial industry and relying 
on a small international trading system, the U.S. can develop a 
home-grown industry, feeding a greener and innovative 
transportation system.
    Thank you for the opportunity and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Nkurunziza follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    And now we have Mr. Satterthwaite.

               STATEMENT OF TONY SATTERTHWAITE, 
                  VICE CHAIRMAN, CUMMINS INC.

    Mr. Satterthwaite. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member 
Barrasso, thank you for inviting me to participate in today's 
hearing. My name is Tony Satterthwaite and I am Vice Chairman 
of Cummins. Since our founding, more than 100 years ago in 
Columbus, Indiana, technological innovation has been at the 
core of what we do. Increasingly, customers require not just 
dependable power at a fair price, but power that results in 
fewer greenhouse gases and fewer criteria pollutants that 
contribute to climate change and poor air quality. Cummins 
embraces environmental standards and uses our innovation to 
grow our business, create American jobs, and improve 
communities, taking a leadership role in our industry with our 
positions on emissions and sustainability. Today, I will 
discuss three things: our path to zero emissions, the 
importance of government support for innovation in 
infrastructure, and the technologies where innovation is 
crucial.
    Our customers need the right vehicles and equipment to do 
their work today and in the future. The solutions must be 
reliable, efficient, operationally flexible, and sustainable to 
meet evolving demands. They also need these solutions to be 
affordable so they can do the work that helps power the 
economy, make their payroll, and continue to create jobs. 
Cummins has embarked on a strategy for reducing the greenhouse 
gas impact of our products. Our path to zero emissions will get 
us the biggest reduction in emissions in the fastest way for 
the lowest cost. Innovation is key to the path and the path is 
almost as important as the destination.
    We must capture all the benefits we can from all 
technologies, including internal combustion, natural gas and 
alternate fuels, hybrid, range-extended electric vehicle, 
battery electric vehicle, and hydrogen fuel cell, as we work 
toward the goal of zero emissions. Switching to renewable 
diesel and other low-carbon fuels can further build upon these 
benefits and provide real carbon reductions. Innovation in 
internal combustion engines with mild hybridization and low-
carbon fuels can reduce emissions to improve air quality today. 
Natural gas engines also offer performance and reliability 
while delivering near-zero emissions. And as these technologies 
improve, range-extended electric vehicles can make further 
improvement in well-to-wheels CO2 emissions while 
offering customers flexibility and resilience. For zero-
tailpipe emissions, battery-electric and hydrogen fuel cell 
powered vehicles will work in tandem, with batteries well-
suited for light-duty, last-mile delivery and urban 
applications, and hydrogen fuel cells as a power-dense option 
for applications such as long-haul trucking, rail, mining, and 
marine.
    The path to zero emissions for commercial vehicles should 
also promote innovation for infrastructure through robust 
funding for research, development, demonstration, and 
deployment of decarbonized hydrogen production and 
distribution; development and distribution of low and net zero 
carbon fuels to maximize the use of existing infrastructure; 
and decarbonizing the grid and creating a fast-charging network 
for trucks. If U.S. transportation is to get to zero emissions 
in a way that is cost-effective, timely, and promotes U.S. jobs 
and manufacturing, significant support is needed from DOE, 
national labs, and other research institutions to innovate an 
infrastructure development and deployment. Continued innovation 
in internal combustion including natural gas and other 
alternate fuels, hybridization, batteries, fuel cells, and 
hydrogen technology are critical for the U.S. to meet our 
climate, air quality, and jobs goals. Hydrogen technologies are 
particularly right for government and industry investment in 
innovation. It is one of the most effective enabling 
technologies for broad and deep decarbonization of hard-to-
abate sectors like rail. The DOE has many programs in this 
space and the programs we have participated in have had a real 
impact on reducing criteria pollutants and greenhouse gases in 
the U.S.
    I would like to close by saying that Cummins is leading the 
way by investing and innovating in a broad portfolio of power 
so our customers can have the right solution to get their jobs 
done today and tomorrow. Government-supported innovation is 
needed to meet our global energy and environmental challenges 
and to maintain American competitiveness and jobs. Enacting 
policies that ensure that this country and every community in 
it has the proven technology necessary to serve the economy 
while meeting air quality and climate goals on the path to net 
zero emissions is critical.
    Thank you for this opportunity to share this with you 
today. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Satterthwaite follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    And finally, we have Mr. Wimmer.
    Mr. Wimmer, for your opening statement, please.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT WIMMER, DIRECTOR, ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL 
           RESEARCH, TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.

    Mr. Wimmer. Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, and 
members of the Committee, thank you for this opportunity.
    Toyota has been investing in America and employing 
Americans for over 60 years. Today, we have ten plants in the 
U.S., nearly 1,500 dealerships, and 180,000 people working 
across the country. In West Virginia, approximately 2,000 team 
members built some of Toyota's most efficient engines, 
transmissions, and hybrid drive trains. This year marks the 
plant's 25th anniversary, and we have recently signed a 15-year 
agreement to purchase West Virginia wind power.
    Every auto company is committed to developing electric 
vehicle technology. Many have made aspirational statements 
about when they will phase out internal combustion engines, but 
we also have to acknowledge the current reality. Last year, 
less than two percent of the vehicles sold in the U.S. were 
battery electric. If we are to make dramatic progress in 
electrification, it will require overcoming tremendous 
challenges, including refueling infrastructure, battery 
availability, consumer acceptance and affordability, and 
reliability of the electric grid. Too often, electrification 
has been defined as exclusively battery electric vehicles, or 
BEVs for short. BEVs are an important part of the answer, but 
not the only answer. Hybrids are also electrified, as are plug-
in hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles. All these 
alternatives will help lower carbon.
    The narrow focus on BEVs as the only solution is likely 
because they burn no gasoline. It is true that if you compare 
an average hybrid, plug-in hybrid, BEV, and fuel cell electric, 
you'll find that BEVs and fuel cells emit less, followed by 
plug-in hybrids and hybrids. While true in many cases, it's not 
true across the board. Recent data shows that plug-in hybrids 
can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs, 
depending on your daily driving patterns, carbon in the 
electric grid, the carbon resulting from battery production, 
and other factors. Don't misunderstand me, we're not saying 
plug-in hybrids are better. We're saying maximum GHG reductions 
can be achieved with consumers having more access to 
technology, not less.
    Electrification isn't new for Toyota. We introduced a fully 
electric RAV4 in the U.S. in 1997 and a second generation in 
2012. Since the Prius launch in 1997, we sold 17 million 
hybrids globally and over four million in the U.S. We currently 
sell 16 hybrid models, including two plug-in hybrids in the 
U.S. and we recently announced a third plug-in hybrid and two 
new battery electric vehicles coming next year. We're also a 
leader in fuel cell electric vehicles, which offer the longer 
driving range and quick refueling consumers have come to expect 
from gasoline vehicles. We have sold over 6,500 Mirai fuel cell 
electric vehicles in the U.S. and over 10,000 globally. We are 
also commercializing fuel cells in buses, trucks, and power 
generation.
    Our 25 years of electrified vehicle history has taught us 
two important lessons. First, consumer needs vary greatly. Some 
live in urban areas with short commutes and some need room for 
families and some live where weather or terrain mandate four-
wheel drive. Some need towing capability and some have garages 
where they can charge their vehicle while others don't. This 
diversity in requirements is exactly why OEMs offer a wide 
range of vehicle types, styles and power trains. It's also 
precisely why multiple electrification pathways are needed to 
reduce carbon emissions. If we tie our horse to a single 
approach, many consumers will simply opt for an internal 
combustion vehicle.
    Second, transitioning to new technology takes time. Selling 
those four million hybrids in the U.S. took us 20 years. 
Significant BEV penetration may pose an even greater challenge 
given the cost of batteries, the need for national 
infrastructure, long recharging times, limited driving range 
and the need for consumer behavioral change. Without a doubt, 
technology-inclusive policies will provide more Americans with 
electrified options and will likely achieve greater GHG 
benefits as a result. The most effective, near-term policy is 
consumer purchase incentives. These should be structured to 
promote all electrified vehicles, allow consumer choice, and 
provide greater opportunity for GHG reductions than a single 
pathway can provide. And these incentives can't sunset too 
quickly or they won't provide the investment certainty 
manufacturers need. Similarly, robust incentives for 
infrastructure and fuel production are needed. The former will 
speed deployment of electric chargers and hydrogen stations and 
increase consumer willingness to purchase. The latter will 
reduce fuel costs and accelerate the use of low-carbon 
feedstocks.
    Our collective destination is a carbon-free transportation 
system and I believe we can get there. But our experience tells 
us it won't happen overnight, and it won't be a single 
technology. We believe that this country, and the world, is 
moving inevitably to electrified transportation, but we need to 
overcome many obstacles along the way and remain supportive of 
all electrification technologies.
    Thank you for your time today.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Wimmer follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Wimmer.
    We are going to start our questions and my first question 
will be to Ms. Speakes-Backman and Mr. Muellerweiss.
    With the growing adoption of electric vehicles, I see the 
lack of domestic EV battery recycling as problematic. With that 
being said, sourcing and manufacturing are also problematic. 
We're moving toward a carbonless EV, if you will, and I want to 
make sure the cart is not in front of the horse--the cart is 
not in front of the horse and the horse cannot push very well. 
So what do you see as the biggest challenges we need to address 
in this situation of recycling and manufacturing of EV 
batteries?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the 
question. And I would like to take a quick opportunity to thank 
you so much for your leadership in providing the provisions 
that could very well relate to this in the Energy Act of 2020.
    The Chairman. Right.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. There is so much more that we can do, 
however. I believe Secretary Granholm appeared in front of you 
during her confirmation and she spoke to the need of really a 
three-prong approach and that's what we're working on at DOE 
and within EERE. And that is, number one, to diversify the 
supply that we have. Number two, to find substitutes for non-
critical materials--of critical materials to the non. And the 
third is reuse and recycling so that we are minimizing the need 
for raw materials.
    The Chairman. Allow me to interrupt.
    Are we along the research as far as finding substitutes for 
raw materials to make these types of batteries?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. We are making progress but there's a 
lot more work to be done.
    The Chairman. Okay.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. And we need to accelerate that.
    The Chairman. Mr. Muellerweiss.
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Yes, the number one constraint, it really 
is a mindset where traditionally we've focused on developing 
new solutions, bringing them into the marketplace, and dealing 
with the end of life later in the process when large quantities 
of batteries or other products reach the end of life. We really 
need to start that process right up front. And I need to 
commend the work of Argonne National Lab and not only the other 
national labs that are looking at the end of life of vehicle 
batteries, particularly EV batteries, current chemistries and 
future chemistries and identifying opportunities for reuse, 
recycling, recovery, and ideally, even a circular economy of 
batteries where we can take those same materials in that 
battery and make new ones.
    But I want to build on that point about hybrid vehicles. We 
are already seeing in today's economy the remanufacturing of 
some of the early hybrid vehicle batteries, so they're being 
reused in the ideal second life or second use which is the 
application that those batteries were originally designed for. 
So more of that is what's needed, more focused efforts and 
really a fundamental change in mindset from a linear approach 
to a circular one that looks at ways to use those materials to 
supply new battery manufacturing, not just end-of-life waste.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    This is going to be for Mr. Wimmer and Mr. Satterthwaite. 
Both of your companies have been putting a heavier emphasis on 
hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cell technologies. I am intrigued by 
fuel cell technology because fuel cell vehicles, like the EVs, 
produce electricity without combustion or emissions and do not 
rely on lithium batteries. This is old technology. In the 
1990s, Bob Wise, who was our Congressperson at that time in 
West Virginia, pushed it very aggressively and we had a fueling 
station in West Virginia. It never took off. We had a couple of 
our buses, transit buses, and it seemed like a novel idea, and 
for some reason, it never caught on with the public. We had no 
more expansion even as much as we promoted it.
    So I am asking, in what application do you see the most 
potential for hydrogen because I think it has an unlimited 
amount of potential in our commercial energy fields also. So 
whoever wants to go first, Mr. Wimmer, then Mr. Satterthwaite.
    Mr. Wimmer. Very good question, Chairman. I was actually 
involved, prior to Toyota, with that bus program----
    The Chairman. You remember that? Yes.
    Mr. Wimmer [continuing]. That ended up in West Virginia and 
I can speak from personal experience, that was a little bit 
before prime time for the technology.
    The Chairman. Okay.
    Mr. Wimmer. It was a little bit early, but we've come a 
long way in the last----
    The Chairman. I am glad to hear that West Virginia was 
ahead of its time.
    Mr. Wimmer. Yes, yes, they were.
    So over the last 20 years, we have been developing the 
technology. We are now on our second-generation stack 
technology, which is allowing us to produce stacks in much 
larger quantities. We can produce upwards of 30,000 stacks a 
year, and it's a very scalable technology, so it can be applied 
to a standard four-door sedan like I mentioned, the Mirai, but 
if you put two of those stacks into a Class A tractor trailer, 
as we're doing for a program at the Ports of Long Beach and 
L.A., those tractor trailers are being used to haul drayage 
from the port to different locations around the L.A. basin 
through some very disadvantaged communities that are very 
impacted by emissions from the streets and the highways nearby. 
So replacing a diesel vehicle with a zero-emission vehicle, 
particularly a fuel cell, is beneficial for reducing carbon 
emissions of course, but also for pollution.
    The Chairman. Do we rely on any other foreign countries for 
the technology or for the raw materials for us to do that?
    Mr. Wimmer. The raw materials primarily are carbon in the 
stacks. We do purchase some of the precious metals in fuel 
cells from outside of the country, but we also purchase about 
the same amount for catalytic converters in cars.
    The Chairman. Got it.
    Mr. Wimmer. So what we are really looking at is taking that 
resource----
    The Chairman. Transferring.
    Mr. Wimmer [continuing]. And transferring it from cars.
    The Chairman. Mr. Satterthwaite, really quickly. I'm sorry, 
we're running out of time, if I may.
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Yes, Chairman, thank you.
    The energy and density emissions weight and fueling 
properties of hydrogen make it an ideal energy carrier for the 
equipment that Cummins powers. But let me also talk about the 
production of hydrogen because in order to use hydrogen we need 
to make hydrogen fuel and that could be produced domestically 
from renewable energy or in a carbon-neutral way with natural 
gas and carbon capture and sequestration, which means, we think 
hydrogen is an ideal fuel for energy-dense applications like 
long-haul trucking, marine, mining, and rail.
    The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    Senator Barrasso.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Satterthwaite, I want to continue with you. You said 
your company is working toward an energy-diverse future where 
your customers have a broad portfolio of options so that they 
can choose what works best for them. So in your experience, if 
we had mandates that forced the technology, is that going to 
help or hurt the innovation that you are working on in the 
transportation sector?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Thank you for the question, Senator.
    In our experience, performance-driven standards allow us to 
reduce emissions today and continue to innovate and improve as 
infrastructure challenges are addressed. And we do not believe 
a technology mandate will be helpful. Other things we have 
experienced in our past is when technology is pushed into the 
market before it's ready, there are three effects that we see. 
The first is that the cost of the technology is typically 
higher and so customers get frustrated with that. As the 
reliability of the technology is not great, manufacturers have 
to spend more money on warranty and support. And then finally, 
as customers don't have great confidence in the technology, 
then they keep their older vehicles longer which, I think, does 
not meet the goal of greening our economy as quickly as 
possible.
    So we do not believe technology-forcing mandates actually 
help. We believe performance-based standards make the biggest 
difference.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much.
    Mr. Nkurunziza, I have a couple questions for you.
    In your report, you explain that the production of minerals 
necessary for electric vehicles has contributed to child labor 
problems, to human rights abuses, and to environmental damage 
around the world from Asia to Africa to South America. To the 
extent that the United States has reserves of minerals 
necessary for electric vehicles, would increasing our mineral 
production right here at home in the United States help 
electric vehicle manufacturers responsibly obtain the minerals 
that they need?
    Mr. Nkurunziza. So two ways really to handle that. Yes, of 
course, if there are domestic resources--cobalt, lithium--you 
can produce them economically because also the economic side 
comes in. If they are competitive--can be produced 
competitively--yes, the U.S. can very much benefit from that. 
But the second aspect is that you can also get them from where 
they are and that's what most countries are doing now because 
not every country will have all the resources it has to advance 
its development. So what I think is the U.S. can be a champion 
actually. Of all these problems we've seen, they can go in with 
a better model, better standards, invest in what I said--what I 
call the impact investment, which tries actually to correct the 
wrongs that we observe in those countries while, you know, 
ensuring that the value chain is internalized there within the 
United States, just procuring the raw material from where it 
is.
    So I would see the problem in, really, in two ways. That's 
why I mentioned this issue of international trade, because 
whether we like it or not, we will probably still need to get 
some of the material from abroad, whether it's rare earths or 
cobalt, for example. So that's how I would approach this 
question.
    Senator Barrasso. Your report notes that the advantages and 
disadvantages are there for recycling metals used in batteries.
    Mr. Nkurunziza. Yes.
    Senator Barrasso. For example, it says that although there 
is a high potential to recover metals from a lithium-ion 
battery, these metals, you say, are often combined with several 
different elements in a complex mix, making recycling extremely 
difficult. So what are the specific challenges that limit the 
amount of material that we can recover when recycling lithium-
ion batteries?
    Mr. Nkurunziza. Thank you very much.
    Yes, again, I think this is where technology comes in. What 
we say is we use the current technologies, but we know that 
technologies are really evolving in this area, they are growing 
at a very high speed. So I'm sure in a few years there will be 
new technologies that allow us to recycle more than we do 
today. Going back, probably to something else I said earlier, 
in Bolivia, for example, we know Bolivia has the highest 
concentration of lithium, but it is not extractable because of 
technology. The current technologies cannot allow that lithium 
to be extracted.
    So technology, again, with the development of new methods, 
that will be possible and I'm sure, maybe in a few years.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I have one other question for Mr. 
Satterthwaite. I just want to say, you know, Wyoming has some 
of the largest reserves--is among the biggest producers of 
natural gas in the country. Can you discuss the opportunities 
that liquefied natural gas, LNG, provide for reducing our 
dependence on foreign oil and air emissions for, say, heavy-
duty vehicles?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Yes, Senator. Thank you for the 
question.
    Switching any application from diesel to natural gas is a 
tremendous opportunity to reduce emissions. Natural gas engines 
can provide performance and reliability. They are a mature and 
proven technology and they offer both criteria pollutant 
emissions 90 percent below current EPA diesel standards and 
greenhouse gas emissions 16 percent below current EPA 
standards. And so natural gas engines are mature, proven, and 
one of the least disruptive alternatives available to start on 
the path of decarbonizing our transportation sector.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Chairman Manchin and Ranking 
Member Barrasso, for this important hearing. Clearly, we have 
to keep manufacturing more efficient cars, drive down costs for 
consumers, and deal with pollution. So I very much appreciate 
this panel and very much appreciate the past efforts by 
Congress in passing a CAFE standard that helped us save two 
trillion gallons of gasoline. That really is about the same as 
it takes to fill up all the light duty trucks in the United 
States for 15 years. So it was really quite an achievement and 
the R&D efforts of the Advanced Technology Vehicles program and 
the DOE's SuperTruck program. All of these have been very 
positive developments, including the EV tax credit that we were 
able to establish in 2008 to help spur more investment in 
electric vehicles.
    So my question now is do you think we need to focus on more 
of the other aspects of the transportation sector--freight, 
transit, maritime, and aviation and do we need to look at, you 
know, like a technology-neutral tax credit or other ways to 
make the U.S. sector more competitive in this area? And if you 
could be as succinct as possible because I have two other 
questions I want to get through.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for your question, Senator 
Cantwell, and thank you for your authorship and leadership of 
the $7,500 tax credit years ago, and it really did spur an 
industry on the EV and now it's time to do more. Now it's time 
to reach beyond the light-duty vehicles and the electric 
vehicles and into the rest of the space of the sustainable 
transportation world that we want to see. That is rail, it is 
heavy-duty vehicles, it is air, and it is sea. And that is why 
we focus in our Sustainable Transportation Office on more than 
just electric vehicles and battery electric vehicles. We focus 
on hydrogen and we focus on biofuels to go across the entire 
transportation sector.
    Senator Cantwell. Great.
    So maybe joining in with the rest of the witnesses, do you 
think that this competition between us and, you know, the rest 
of the world--communities also trying to catch up on this. In 
2005, the capital investment in clean energy technologies was 
about $60 billion and in 2020 it was $501 billion. So there are 
a lot of people that are making these investments. Do we need 
to do more in the area of battery technology and transition and 
grid storage, and the truck issue? Do we need to do more?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Absolutely, and I appreciate your 
question.
    You know, something that I heard across all five 
testimonies today was that this is not just about battery 
electric vehicles, this is that consumers need more choices and 
that these choices need to be accessible to all Americans. We 
need to explore and use the natural resources that we have here 
at home in order to make sure that we have a secure supply, and 
I think we need to accelerate that process. We have the 
expertise of the Department of Energy and our 11 laboratories, 
really standing at the ready, to be able to work toward that 
common future.
    Senator Cantwell. And what do we do about this issue of the 
supply chain and making our supply chain more resilient or 
redundant or resolving conflict. The U.S. International Trade 
Commission is looking at this SK Innovation and LG Chem dispute 
and clearly, we do not want people stealing patents or unfair 
competition. But this will hurt us in our supply chain in the 
United States, correct? And we need to have it resolved or do 
something about it to make sure that we have more resiliency.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. It's certainly a challenge facing us 
today in terms of accelerating the sustainable transportation 
and the domestic battery electric vehicle--domestic production, 
in contrast with making sure that we have a fair playing field. 
And so while Department of Energy is not at the center of that 
discussion, we look forward to helping to support wherever we 
can--the ITC in its decision-making and the rest of the 
Administration.
    Senator Cantwell. Okay.
    What else do we need to do to, on the materials side, to 
help with the supply chain? What do you think we should do 
there on the materials side?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Well, reducing the reliance on 
critical materials, critical minerals, is really important and 
it's a big focus of us at Department of Energy and across our 
labs, really focusing on diversifying the supply of these 
critical materials. Secondly, really, is finding substitutes 
for them through our research and development. And thirdly is 
reuse and recycling of those critical materials that are 
already in the space so that we don't have to dig up more.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
    That last point is so important because we have had several 
hearings before this Committee before and I feel like we just 
gloss over that point. And yet I think it is the most critical 
point for us in the United States because there is something we 
could do about that right now if we just would focus on the 
recycling aspect.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. I appreciate that. And we do have, 
actually, a few prizes and programs within DOE that are pretty 
exciting. The Lithium-Ion Recycling Prize and the ReCell 
battery research and development center, for which Clarios is a 
participant. So we will continue that work and we look to 
expand it.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    I don't think Mr. Lankford is able to get on the call right 
now.
    Senator Cassidy. Will he be available?
    If he is not available, we are going to go to Senator 
Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman, I wanted to ask you a little bit about 
electrolyzers. We heard a lot of different testimony today 
about hydrogen and one of the things that, I think, it is 
clear, whether you are Cummins or anybody who is starting to 
invest in that space, that we need to bring down the cost of 
electrolyzers. So that is one of the key goals here. Can you 
talk a little bit about how we move electrolyzer costs down the 
deployment cost curve more quickly and, from your DOE 
perspective, what we should be doing as a policymaking body to 
support that?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for your question and thank 
you for your leadership on so many aspects of energy storage, 
either stationary or vehicle, and on addressing the climate 
crisis. I really appreciate the time and the question.
    We at DOE, while we are looking to demonstrate and deploy 
the technologies that are already at hand, we don't stop or we 
don't slow down the work that we have to do on the research and 
development of lowering the costs of electrolyzers and the 
entirety of the process of production for hydrogen, whether 
that be green hydrogen, whether it be other forms of hydrogen 
through carbon capture or whether that be through natural gas. 
We are working on all three of those fronts with our labs and 
we appreciate the support that you all give us to do that.
    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Satterthwaite, I appreciate the 
investment that Cummins is making in hydrogen technology. I am 
curious if you have thought about potential policies that might 
help with some of those, bringing down costs with deployment 
and certainly, you know, one of the things we have learned and 
seen in recent years is how tax incentives like the Investment 
Tax Credit have been incredibly efficient at moving solar from 
the most expensive source of power to the cheapest source of 
power in a relatively short period of time. I am curious if you 
have looked at whether a vehicle like the Investment Tax Credit 
would be helpful in driving down the cost of electrolyzers, in 
particular?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Thank you for the question, Senator.
    We believe tax credits are an effective way to spur demand 
and investment. The current challenge that we see with 
electrolyzer cost is essentially the further technology 
development and increased volume. I think this Committee is 
aware that Europe has moved forward quite quickly with the 
European Green Deal and is offering some pretty significant 
incentives for investments in green hydrogen. And we think that 
some of those similar incentives here in the U.S. could spur 
the development of electrolyzers. I think demand for 
electrolyzers will also go hand-in-hand with demand for 
hydrogen. And so I think the other way to get electrolyzer 
costs down is to spur demand for hydrogen as a fuel, and I 
think there have been many, many of my fellow panelists who 
have talked about how we can do that, but that would be the 
other demand pull that we could use to increase the volume of 
electrolyzers.
    Senator Heinrich. That is a great point. And you talked a 
little bit about what sort of CO2 standards you 
would be comfortable with and you said that you support 
performance standards. And I am curious if you mean that you 
would, for example, support a standard that moved from today's 
emissions of diesel motors and setting that as, sort of, 2021 
and then sliding that scale to zero for CO2 
emissions at a date certain in the future. Is that the kind of 
performance standard that you were referring to?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Thank you, Senator. That is correct. We 
support that kind of a standard that meets the objectives of 
our country and our air quality goals and allows industry to 
compete and consumers to have choice about which tech they 
choose.
    Senator Heinrich. And obviously, that's technology neutral.
    Mr. Wimmer, I wanted to ask you a little bit about 
infrastructure because I was able to pull up from September 
2018 the data that happened to pop in a story about the 
different cars that sold in the U.S. Congratulations, Toyota 
Camry was number one in September 2018. The best-selling 
American car in September 2018 was the Tesla Model 3--it was 
about 3,000 vehicles behind it at 24,000. You were at 27,640 
for the Camry. The Mirai is not on that list. I do not raise 
that to pick on the Mirai. I raise it to bring up the issue of 
infrastructure because I can pull up a gas station or a 
charging station, hundreds of them, anywhere, on my phone, 
pretty much anytime, with the exception of rural areas where we 
still have a lot to do on electrification infrastructure, and 
we're getting ready to talk about a potential big 
infrastructure package. And I think addressing both the current 
issues with rural electrification and hydrogen potential 
infrastructure is a huge opportunity within that infrastructure 
focus.
    Do you want to share some thoughts on that, the importance 
that if we are talking about hydrogen we have to be talking 
about infrastructure?
    Mr. Wimmer. Thank you, Senator, that's a very good 
question.
    The approach that has been taken in California, where 
there's nearly 50 hydrogen stations open today, is to scale the 
infrastructure along with the vehicles. So you basically would 
want to grow infrastructure so they balance the number of 
vehicles and the number of stations. There is also a difference 
with the hydrogen infrastructure. It's very similar to a 
gasoline pump dispenser and it can service hundreds, if not a 
thousand vehicles a week from one station, very different than 
battery chargers. So you don't need to build as many stations 
as you would individual chargers.
    The other key is that there is cooperation between the auto 
makers, the infrastructure providers, and the government to 
grow all that together because it's a long-term commitment. 
We're talking a decade or more long commitment to invest in the 
stations or the vehicles. So it's key that there's this 
cooperative aspect to doing that and that's occurred in 
California. We're doing the same thing in the Northeast U.S. to 
grow that as well. But again, with the modest infrastructure, 
as that grows, we will increase vehicle production to meet the 
demand for the vehicles.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Murkowski.
    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good 
morning. I appreciate this hearing on innovative transportation 
technologies. And I know that most of my colleagues, when you 
think about transportation, you are thinking about what is 
driving on our roads and I appreciate that we have someone from 
automobile manufacturing. But in way too many of my communities 
we do not have that, those roads. And so, for us, 
transportation looks just a little bit different and we talked 
about how we move on the water, which I think, for us, for the 
United States, really for the world, this is a space and an 
area where we need to be spending some time and attention.
    We have had an opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to go to Norway. 
We have seen a country like Norway that, again, has a lot of 
areas that you cannot access readily by road. And so what they 
have done with their ferry system and their marine highway 
system to allow that to be powered through renewable 
opportunities, electricity--I think about our Alaska marine 
highway system. It has actually been designated as a National 
Scenic Byway and an All-American Road. This is our road out 
there. We have incredible opportunities for hydro resource, 
again, a renewable resource there that can generate this 
electricity. But when we think about what we have in Kodiak--
another series of ferries that go around that island. That 
island community is--the City of Kodiak, anyway--is about 99 to 
100 percent renewable, between the hydro and the wind 
opportunities and the storage that they have there.
    So talk to me a little bit in terms of what is being done 
in terms of the R&D to lower the cost of hybrid electric ferry 
conversion. What more is being done in this space to help not 
only ferry systems, but I also think about our fishing fleet in 
Alaska and the desire that so many have to convert their fleets 
to get them off of diesel and to get them to a different way of 
operation within their own systems.
    So I think that goes to you, Ms. Speakes-Backman, in terms 
of what we are seeing in the innovation in this space as it 
applies to transportation on our water, whether it is a fishing 
fleet or whether it is a marine highway system like we have in 
Alaska?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Well, thank you very much for the 
question, Senator Murkowski, and thank you for your leadership 
in all these energy issues that are so important to us. Our 
Water Power Technologies Office has undertaken the Powering the 
Blue Economy initiative, which is very exciting, centered on 
unlocking the opportunities for waterway energy systems, also 
working with the Department of Transportation, working with the 
Department of the Interior, working across the entire 
government, really, to find ways to electrify ferry systems as 
well as demonstrating projects for communities. We have also 
partnered across DOE offices to launch the Energy Transitions 
Initiative Partnership Project, as you're well aware. We have 
the Waves to Water Prize, for which we just announced a recent 
winner, which is about desalination systems for disaster 
relief. We have the Ocean Observing Prize, which is working on 
development of wave energy powered ocean systems.
    That, plus working on the ferry electrification systems are 
really where we're working to decarbonize across the entire 
economy. And whether we do this through electrification or zero 
carbon fuels for the ferry systems, we're working on both of 
those aspects. We are looking to integrate the transportation 
sector to involve much more than just the road systems, but 
really water, rail, and air as well.
    Senator Murkowski. Well, I would like to work with the 
folks at DOE on this. As I mentioned, we have an awful lot of--
not only remote and islanded communities, but they are just not 
connected to anybody else. Again, we talk about the microgrids 
and how we are kind of doing it on our own, but the 
opportunities, I think, for us to be doing more when it comes 
to creating these highways on the water, how we are able to 
access one another through that--I will just note that some of 
our communities are already really pushing out. Juneau, our 
capital, is. They have, on a per capita basis, one electric 
vehicle for every 76 residents. For that community, their big 
problem was getting dealers from Seattle to ship EVs up to the 
state because everybody thought they did not want them there. 
In the community of Cordova, there were no EVs, and so the 
mayor decided he was going to deal with the chicken and egg 
thing and put in two charging stations and now we have several 
EVs. So you build it and they will come.
    In my remaining minutes, I want to bring up the issue of 
critical minerals and the elements that are so necessary. The 
discussion that has been had about recycling, and as much as 
recycling holds promise, I will just remind that you cannot 
recycle until you have put it into the cycle in the first 
place. So we recognize that we have work to do when it comes to 
ensuring that these resources are there.
    I was part of a discussion yesterday, getting a little bit 
of an update about a project in the Salton Sea where they are 
taking the geothermal brine and basically extracting from that, 
lithium and it--apparently, it holds some incredible promise. 
But I mentioned the geothermal brine that you have in Iceland 
and how they are using it for skin and facial products. Maybe 
we can be doing that as well as figuring out a way----
    The Chairman. I know we all tried it. It did not help us 
much either----
    Senator Murkowski. Come on, some of us----
    The Chairman. ----benefited by it.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Murkowski. Mr. Chairman, I am well over my time, 
but this is an area that, I think, has great promise and great 
interest. But we clearly do not want to get too far behind when 
it comes to being able to develop and process our own critical 
minerals and those important elements here in this country as 
well.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Is Senator King on? I am not sure if he has joined us. If 
he has, if he would please come on. If he has not, we will go 
to Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
Ranking Member and thank you for the panel. This is great 
conversation today.
    You know, right now we are in the middle of a legislative 
session in the State of Nevada and the Governor and some of our 
legislators have introduced a substantial energy bill during 
this legislative session that would mark one of the state's 
largest investments in electric vehicle infrastructure. And so 
I am so pleased with the conversation today. But let me ask 
you, Ms. Speakes-Backman, I have introduced legislation because 
I think we need to have a national strategy and a clear 
strategy on electric vehicle framework to include the DOE and 
our local and state governments in this national strategy. And 
generally speaking, is that something that DOE is supportive of 
or is that something you are looking at and developing and 
working with the states and local governments around a national 
strategy?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Senator, thank you so much for the 
question. In fact, yes, as we are looking to focus more on the 
demonstration and deployment of these technologies that we have 
worked so hard over the years to be ready to have deployed, we 
are absolutely thinking about how we coordinate, not only 
across the Federal Government, but across state governments as 
well through programs such as ``Clean Cities'' and ``Connected 
Communities,'' that we work with, as well as looking at what 
that national strategy might be. Just last week, or maybe it 
was the week before last, I sat down with the Board of 
Directors of the National Association for State Energy Offices, 
really, to talk about what we can do to be helping and 
supporting the states to do the work that they need to make 
sure that they can support the legislation that has gone 
through. So thank you for the question.
    Senator Cortez Masto. That is wonderful. Thank you.
    Let me touch on something that we really have not focused 
on, which is workforce. In addition to the opportunities and 
challenges presented today, we also have to prepare our 
workforce for many of these technologies and the expansion of 
jobs that come with them. This could provide ample 
opportunities to work with our partners in organized labor as 
well. So let me just open this up to the panelists. Can you 
talk to the potential benefits that electric vehicles and the 
deployment of charging infrastructure could have for domestic 
job creation and production? And let me open that up to the 
panelists and see if anybody has any thoughts on that.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Well, I'll jump in, if you don't mind.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Okay.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for the question.
    Absolutely. Everything that we do at the Department of 
Energy is focused on, of course, reducing carbon in our energy 
infrastructure, but also to be able to enable all Americans to 
have--to benefit from--the work that we do and that includes 
not just the environmental benefits, but the workforce 
development side of this and training as well. And so in the 
deployment of infrastructure, it certainly can help us to get 
to that goal of creating of millions of good-paying, middle 
class jobs with the opportunity to join a union, as well as 
helping, not just in the deployment of this, but in the 
operations and maintenance of the transportation sector.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I am glad you said that 
because I know I have worked with our regional transportation 
commissions in Nevada. We have electric buses already, but I 
know, particularly in northern Nevada, working with our Washoe 
RTC, that they highlighted for me the shortage of workers that 
had the know-how to service electric vehicle buses. And so I 
think this is an area where we can grow our workforce and train 
them, create jobs--create new jobs--transition the skills to 
these jobs, which will benefit our workforce as well. Thank you 
for that.
    Let me touch on battery recycling, while I have just a few 
minutes left. Mr. Muellerweiss and Mr. Nkurunziza, is that 
right? I do not want to butcher your name.
    Mr. Nkurunziza. Yes, that's right.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Great, thank you.
    Both of your testimonies speak to the many benefits of 
developing better battery recycling programs and keeping the 
recycled materials in the United States in an effort to gain 
control of the feedstock for future battery production.
    Mr. Muellerweiss, in your written testimony, you mentioned 
the ``2 Million Battery Challenge.'' Can you further elaborate 
on this initiative and speak to its applicability for the 
recycling of other critical minerals and rare earths?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Sure, thank you for that question.
    The 2 Million Battery Challenge is something the 
Responsible Battery Coalition put together to go after the 
estimated number of batteries that are currently not being 
pulled back into the recycling system for their conventional 
lead-acid battery recycling. Through that effort, we've worked 
with a number of organizations, including Backhaul Alaska, that 
are looking at remote villages and that have stranded batteries 
so there may be a higher cost to access--to capture--very 
similar to maybe some of the current chemistries that are 
coming online and maybe reaching end of life. So we're learning 
by going after some of the more difficult-to-reach batteries 
from around the country--from around the world, frankly--but 
that effort is really focused in trying to identify how to make 
it economically viable, how to sort transportation needs to get 
it from some of the most remote locations to responsible 
recycling centers.
    And as I mentioned in my testimony, there's a lot that can 
be learned from these traditional recycling systems that have 
been established in creating pull-through value that allows the 
materials to be processed and then, ideally, turned back into 
new batteries.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    And now we have, let's see who we have. Senator Lankford, 
is he available yet? If not, we are going to go to Senator 
Cassidy.
    Senator Cassidy. Okay, thank you, all.
    Mr. Satterthwaite, I have been down at some of the 
Louisiana boat building places and they are using your engines. 
Is there a hydrogen powered engine that works in a marine 
vessel?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Senator, thank you for the question.
    We are running demonstration projects. We currently have a 
hydrogen fuel cell in an e-ferry in San Francisco, an 84-
passenger ferry, but these are still technology demonstration 
projects. I would not say that the fuel cell technology is 
ready for prime-time, offshore operation just yet.
    Senator Cassidy. But is it ready for an 18-wheeler?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Neither. It is not ready for an 18-
wheeler just yet. We are developing. We have a number of 
demonstration projects. My fellow panelist from Toyota talked 
about the trucks that are at the ports. Cummins has a number of 
those as well. We are working with customers on demonstration 
projects, but we are not production--or, you know, efficient-
use ready with those technologies as of yet.
    Senator Cassidy. This is purely curiosity, for either you 
or Mr. Wimmer. It is my understanding that when you make 
hydrogen from methane you extract about 55 percent of the 
energy potential of the methane. That would, obviously, 
increase your cost of fuel roughly by 50 percent. So can we 
anticipate that this technology will improve, or is it going to 
be somewhat limited because you are always going to have some 
decrease in energy potential as you transition from one fuel to 
the other, aside from the energy it takes to strip the hydrogen 
from the methane to begin with?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Senator, you bring up a very good 
question. The real key is what is the price of that fuel when 
it's delivered to the customer? Efficiency will be part of 
that, but the efficiency of the whole system is really, 
ultimately, up to the price of that fuel at the pump. So when 
you look at electricity, depending on how you produce the 
electricity, that could be a very inefficient process as well. 
And we don't really think about that when we buy electricity. 
So I think we really have to think about if we can bring the 
cost down through whatever process is used to make the hydrogen 
so that it's affordable for the consumer at the pump.
    Senator Cassidy. Okay.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman, Louisiana has a lot of pipeline 
infrastructure. We produce a lot of methane. We have great 
geology by which to store carbon if we wish, to strip the 
hydrogen atoms off to make a fuel cell, but then to make it 
zero carbon hydrogen. How do we capitalize on this 
infrastructure if I want my state to be part of this hydrogen 
future that may be out there?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for the question, Senator. 
And we want every state to become a part of the hydrogen future 
as well as the electric transportation future and the biofuel 
future, as it's appropriate.
    We would love to work with you to talk about local programs 
that we can put in place in order to move this forward. And so 
we would love to be in touch following up.
    Senator Cassidy. So is blue hydrogen part of the plan as 
opposed to the so-called green hydrogen? Blue hydrogen being 
made from methane?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Absolutely. We have done work on blue 
hydrogen. My Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy 
has not been the lead on that, that's been our Office of 
Fossil, but they are also looking at carbon reduction ways from 
the fossil fuels to be able to create hydrogen. In fact, 
there's a funding opportunity on the street right now regarding 
that. So yes, sir.
    Senator Cassidy. Mr. Satterthwaite, do you have a sense of 
how long it will take for the technology to get to the point 
where we could have an 18-wheeler or a marine vessel that's run 
on hydrogen?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Cummins' projection that we shared with 
investors in November of last year is that we think that 
penetration of hydrogen fuel cells in, for instance, our heavy-
duty trucking market in the U.S. will be in the single digit 
percent by 2030.
    Senator Cassidy. And what about LNG as a transportation 
fuel in a marine vessel? What would be that penetration?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. LNG has been discussed many times. It 
has some opportunities, but natural gas in smaller-sized marine 
vessels is a challenging technology that still needs some work. 
There are some very large ships which use LNG, but the size 
that Cummins' are today--really, it's hard to get enough fuel 
density on board to match the density of diesel. And so 
customers suffer reduced range if they move to compressed 
natural gas or LNG opportunities.
    But in terms of emissions reductions, LNG offers a good 
opportunity to reduce emissions in products and they think 
technology is essentially available and reliable and durable 
today.
    Senator Cassidy. Thank you. I yield back.
    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Thanks so very much.
    Senator King.
    Senator King. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize 
for being late to this hearing. I was at an Armed Services 
Committee hearing and interestingly, there is a connection 
between the two. The Armed Services Committee witnesses 
included the NORTHCOM Commander who deals with issues in North 
America and the Arctic and the SOUTHCOM Commander who deals 
with everything below Mexico. And the common thread is climate 
change. Seventy-five percent of the Arctic ice has melted in 
the last 40 years and that's in terms of volume and the Arctic 
is changing fundamentally as a national security issue in terms 
of both Russia and China. In Central America, the testimony was 
that part of what's driving the crisis at our border is the 
COVID impact in those countries, trans-national criminal 
activity which is gangs, which is just out of control and 
finally, two major hurricanes that hit the region this fall and 
people just want to get out for a safer life and they are 
headed for our borders.
    So here we are talking about electric vehicles and 
alternative fuel vehicles and it is all part of the same issue. 
I think it is important that we realize that all these things 
are connected. I have to say--and I am not going to mention the 
brand--I just bought a brand-new car, which I rarely do, which 
is one of the most amazing vehicles that I have ever 
encountered. It is a plug-in hybrid and it can be plugged in 
and you have 25 miles of all electric transportation for 
getting around town, but it also has a hybrid engine for longer 
distance. And coming in yesterday from Dulles Airport, it 
averaged 61 miles per gallon on the hybrid engine. So this is, 
I think, the future of transportation--a very efficient 
utilization of resources.
    I think, and I do not know if this has come up, but one of 
the benefits of alternative-fueled vehicles, particularly 
electric vehicles, is a more efficient utilization of the grid. 
Our grid is like a church designed for Christmas and Easter--it 
has extra pews the rest of the year. Our grid is designed for 
the hottest day in August, and there is a lot of additional 
capacity on the grid in the middle of the night in February or 
March or December or whenever, and this is when most people 
would be charging their vehicles. So there is an opportunity 
here for a much more efficient utilization of the grid and, of 
course, transportation, as I am sure has been noted in this 
hearing, is about a third of our greenhouse gas emissions.
    I am interested in the alternatives, other than 
electricity. We have had a lot of discussion about that. If one 
of the witnesses could sort of give me 30 seconds on the status 
of hydrogen, for example, as a feasible transportation 
alternative and where that stands and what the obstacles are at 
this point.
    Mr. Wimmer. I can speak for Toyota.
    I think it's showing that it is feasible. As I mentioned, 
we have deployed over 6,500 Mirai, our fuel cell, four-door 
sedan in the State of California. There are 50 stations. We 
have had an immense amount of learning on doing this over the 
last five years, both from the infrastructure side--hydrogen 
production--as well as from the vehicle side. We're now on to 
our second-generation fuel cell vehicle that improves 
performance and fuel efficiency range at a lower cost. So from 
our perspective it is a technology that will grow. We are 
selling it around the world, in Japan, as well as Europe. We 
are also working on heavy-duty Class A tractor trailers to 
deliver cargo in the L.A. area. I think, from our view, we see 
it as a fundamental technology that will grow going forward and 
help us achieve our climate goals.
    Senator King. And the hydrogen can be produced by excess 
electrical capacity, can it not?
    Mr. Wimmer. Yes, that is one way to produce hydrogen. 
Hydrogen can be produced many different ways, so excess 
capacity, electrolyzers, renewable energy, as was mentioned 
earlier from natural gas with carbon sequestration. So there's 
just a variety of ways to produce the hydrogen. It really can 
vary by region. So whatever each region of the country has, 
they can use it to produce hydrogen.
    Senator King. And the emission from the burning of hydrogen 
is H2O, is that correct?
    Mr. Wimmer. Correct. We're not burning hydrogen. We're 
actually just recombining it with oxygen to form water and 
that's what comes out of the tailpipe.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator King. Well, I think water is a lot better than 
CO2. So I appreciate that technology.
    And how many vehicles did you say you have deployed in 
California at this point?
    Mr. Wimmer. We've deployed over 6,500, and then if you add 
in our competitors' vehicles, it's between 7,500 and 8,000 
vehicles, I think.
    Senator King. Is this a cost-competitive technology now, or 
when will it be so?
    Mr. Wimmer. Well, we can't really talk about costs. I think 
we can look at the price of the vehicle and see that it's--I 
think the new generation is approximately $57,000 with three 
years of free hydrogen. So I think from the consumer 
standpoint, it's a very attractive price, but I can't speak to 
cost at this time.
    Senator King. Okay, thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Senator King.
    Senator Lankford.
    Senator Lankford. Senator Barrasso, thank you. To the 
witnesses, thank you very much for what you are doing and for 
bringing the conversation in today. Let me go through several 
things.
    Mr. Muellerweiss, let me ask you about the battery 
recycling that has come up several times and obviously, the 
challenge that we have with some of the minerals coming from 
conflict areas and child labor and from multiple areas where we 
have nations like China and Cuba that seem to dominate the 
market in certain, different minerals. So the battery recycling 
becomes a big issue for us.
    My understanding is we are around five percent at this 
point for some of these batteries. Not dealing with existing 
car batteries now, we are at near 100 percent of recycling. But 
for some of the lithium-ion and some of those, where are we on 
recycling and what can we do better for that?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. First and foremost, Senator, no child 
should ever be harmed with materials that are used in 
batteries, full stop. That's why it's so important to 
understand the full life cycle of these materials, as I 
mentioned in my testimony, from mining to manufacturing, to end 
of life and recycling. As you noted, a very small percentage of 
lithium-ion chemistries are currently being recycled today. 
There's a significant amount of diversity. There isn't a one-
size-fits-all when you say lithium-ion. That can be a variety 
of different configurations, chemistries, creating a little bit 
more additional complexity for recovery and recycling.
    But one of the key things that is evident and why we are 
excited to be a participant in the DOE's Lithium-Ion Recycling 
Prize is there's an opportunity to collect those used batteries 
which have some of those rare earth and critical minerals and 
ensure that they can be recovered in a cost-effective, 
responsible way right here in the United States, to be able to 
turn those materials back into batteries.
    Senator Lankford. So why aren't we getting more of those 
rare earths and critical minerals from here in the United 
States? We do have things like lithium here. North Carolina has 
that. But what has been the challenge that we have had of 
actually doing more of that production here? Cobalt--we are 
still very, very dependent on the Congo and a tremendous amount 
of child labor that is happening to be able to do that mining 
there. So what can we do to develop more of that here in the 
United States?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Well, others on the panel may be able to 
speak more on the mining, but what I can tell you, certainly 
related to cobalt, is that that is a significant concern, not 
only for us, but the entire battery industry. We're a part of 
the World Economic Forum's Global Battery Alliance that has a 
cobalt initiative that is specifically focused on responsible 
sources, but I would defer to others on the panel on the mining 
capabilities here in the United States.
    Senator Lankford. Would someone else want to make a comment 
on that?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Senator, I would appreciate the 
opportunity to comment on this. This is Kelly Speakes-Backman.
    Secretary Granholm has spoken to this very Committee and 
has made a commitment to really look and work with you all on 
how we can better source safely and responsibly the critical 
materials that are here. But in addition to that, she also has 
supported a three-pronged approach really of number one being 
able to lessen the need for these critical materials by 
diversifying our supply, getting away from some of these areas 
that are just not acceptable to be taking these critical 
materials. Second is in being more sustainable in the way that 
we do that work, and third is reuse and recycling. I understand 
that this is some new work that's being done, but I can tell 
you that at the Department of Energy we have the ReCell Center, 
which conducts research and development specifically focused on 
economically direct recycling from batteries. Our Critical 
Materials Institute at the Ames National Lab focuses on 
materials recovery, and we're working with the Departments of 
Commerce and Defense, and we recently launched a federal 
consortium on advanced batteries to address just these issues.
    Senator Lankford. Okay. Let me do a follow-up question for 
you as well. It has been a challenge for us just in the Federal 
Government, period. If I go back to the 1970s, it was federal 
policy at that point to say we are running out of natural gas, 
and so we need to shift all of our power generation to coal 
because we have plenty of coal and we are running out of 
natural gas, and so all of our incentives turned that way. We 
have watched this occur, even in wind power. When wind power 
was nascent, we did a tremendous number of incentives to be 
able to help pick it off the ground. It is profitable. It is 
definitely off the ground at this point. It has been a great 
energy source for us for power generation. But we still seem to 
struggle with all of these different incentives that are built-
in for wind, even though it is certainly not a nascent 
technology anymore.
    So my question for you is, how do we learn the lessons of 
the past to be able to make sure that whatever we are 
incentivizing for the future of clean energy, that we are not 
actually picking winners and losers here and actually driving 
some out in the process of actually trying to help others?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. I appreciate that question. I think 
there are a number of ways that we can work toward incentives 
that allow for innovation. I think that's a lot of the 
important work that we're doing, but it's not just on the 
incentives, it's also on the early research and development, 
and the Department of Energy certainly is a world leader in 
that aspect. When it comes to incentives such as tax incentives 
and such, there is discussion on technology-
neutral tax incentives. That's certainly worth a conversation. 
And I'd really love to have that conversation with you to talk 
through what the best path forward might be.
    Senator Lankford. Okay. Glad to be able to have that 
dialogue.
    You had mentioned by 2050 trying to be at a carbon-neutral 
environment. Is that for transportation or is that for power 
generation as a whole?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Yes, sir. We are looking to follow the 
President's directive to have a carbon-neutral grid by 2035 and 
be carbon-neutral economy-wide not later than 2050. So that 
includes transportation. It includes more energy efficiency. It 
includes more grid-interactive buildings. It includes a 
sustainable industrial sector and it includes transportation, 
sir.
    Senator Lankford. Is there any particular fuel that is in 
that, that you look to say by this point, by 2035, we will need 
to have that completely eliminated because as you mentioned 
before with hydrogen, you are still talking about using blue 
hydrogen from natural gas. Is that gone by 2035? Is that gone 
by 2050? What is your model there for certain fuels that would 
disappear by then?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. I really appreciate that question. 
Really, it's more of a focus on what fuels do we need to deploy 
in order to get to that carbon-neutral space. So that is 
including bio energies. It's including hydrogen and it's 
including electrification of our transportation sector. And not 
one-size-fits-all. This is about finding what applications fit 
best with what fuels, rather than figuring out what we're going 
to be carving out and shutting down. It's really about what can 
help us get to that goal of 2050.
    Senator Lankford. Yes, I get that. It was interesting, 
though. We had a hearing just last week. We talked about trying 
to be able to move power that was done by renewable sources 
from one state to another. We have states in the West that they 
actually started working on transmission lines in 2007 and they 
do not have a single one of the lines up yet because we are 
still going through the permit and the study process. They hope 
to actually break ground on the first of their transmission 
lines within the next two years.
    So when we talk about trying to be able to eliminate 
certain items by 2035, and then we realize just moving 
electricity over a couple of states, in some of our states, 
already has taken 13 years and it is not actually put in a 
tower yet. We realize 2035 is really not very far away and one 
of the challenges we are going to have is to try to say ``What 
are we doing with vehicles? What has to happen to the 
permitting? What has to happen in the process?'' And what 
actually needs to occur for those that are in poverty to not be 
driven to a very expensive vehicle of $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 
that they cannot afford. And so that suddenly, vehicles are on 
the top shelf, only for a select few because you are not in the 
mix. So trying to be able to strike that balance--that we are 
not actually pushing people in poverty into more isolation, or 
to be able to set a goal that we already cannot achieve based 
on what we have seen in the past, unless we clean up some of 
our permitting process.
    The Chairman [presiding]. Senator Lankford, we want to 
thank you for that great analogy. We are going to have to move 
on, if you do not mind?
    Senator Lankford. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Senator Kelly.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    So in addition to EV use, efforts to develop and extend the 
life of advanced high-capacity batteries are an important part 
of ensuring grid reliability as our nation transitions to 
renewable energy production. We also need a secure supply chain 
for these materials, but the transition to advanced batteries 
will not happen overnight, which is why I am a proponent of 
federal and private R&D into alternative energy technologies. 
And I believe we may be only scratching the surface of advanced 
battery technology.
    So this question is for Mr. Muellerweiss. Clarios 
manufactures and recycles batteries and one of your 
distribution plants is located in the State of Arizona in Yuma. 
So my questions for you: have manufacturers of advanced 
batteries settled on the chemical makeup, whether it be for the 
use in EVs or for renewable energy storage and how does that 
affect your efforts to perfect battery recycling?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. So there is a current generation of 
chemistries that is being used in electric vehicles today, but 
as we heard from some of the other panelists, and I noted in my 
testimony, there is incredible work being done in the national 
labs, you know, particularly at NETL, at Argonne and NREL, 
really looking at other chemistries besides what has been 
traditionally used or is predominantly in the market today. And 
I think, as has been highlighted by others today, there are 
some unique opportunities and benefits from chemistries that 
may not require the kind of rare earth or the availability of 
materials that are in limited supply here in the United States. 
And I would say that that's the really exciting point about 
where we're at in this new battery economy. We're just getting 
started, Senator. And it's the work at the national labs. It's 
unleashing the private sector and it's really focusing on the 
opportunities ahead that, I think, are really going to create 
new opportunities, new fast forward.
    I also mentioned in my testimony that there's no one silver 
bullet, no one single solution that's going to solve these 
problems. There are unique chemistries with unique attributes 
that are perfectly suited for stationary energy storage to help 
buffer EV charging stations, to extend the grid, others that 
may be more applicable for EVs and mode of power. And so we're 
just scratching the surface, as you mentioned, and I think the 
great work at DOE is just a great starting point and a jumping 
off point for that work to continue.
    Senator Kelly. Could you give me an example of one of these 
new chemistry makeups, the new technology?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. So Senator, my role isn't as a 
technologist. I'm not an engineer. I focus on looking at the 
life cycle and the responsible management of those batteries. 
But I can tell you we're looking at and working with Argonne 
and several of the national labs on other chemistries than they 
use--magnesium, sodium, other forms of lithium, other 
combinations of lithium that may make it easier to recycle. So 
there's a myriad of different solutions. And that's why the 
work and the modeling work, particularly of Argonne, the ReCell 
facility that was mentioned and the EverBatt modeling 
capabilities are so critical because they are building an 
inventory of this variety of different chemistries, variety of 
different combinations and what the impacts would be upstream 
in terms of raw materials and downstream in terms of end of 
life and in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.
    Senator Kelly. Well, with the understanding that the 
development of these technologies often takes some time, will 
we be able to achieve a capacity for recycling batteries any 
time soon that will supplant the development of our domestic 
reserves of lithium and our need to import cobalt and 
additional lithium from other nations?
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Well certainly, I think it was mentioned 
earlier that, you know, the initial supply source is going to 
come from somewhere. The ability to recover and reuse that 
material at the end of life of batteries is critical to 
complement the supply of raw materials from mines and other 
locations around the world. But what is really promising is the 
ability to take the increasing volume--I mentioned there's over 
200 million pounds of used lithium-ion batteries from EVs that 
are expected in the very near future. To be able to look at 
those as a critical resource to complement what was originally 
mined is really something that we think is within reach.
    And I also want to point to the Lithium-Ion Recycling Prize 
as one of the key paths forward. It's really challenging the 
private sector. We're working with a number of private-sector 
companies in our team to really find a way to accelerate and 
have that step change to achieve the kind of lithium-ion 
recycling that I mentioned in my testimony.
    Senator Kelly. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony.
    Mr. Muellerweiss. Thank you for your question.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Now we are going to have Senator Marshall.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you, Chairman, it is good to be 
back.
    My first question is for Mr. Satterthwaite from Cummins. 
Mr. Satterthwaite, let me start by saying thank you for your 
footprint in Kansas. I actually used your services in Wichita 
for a generator a couple years ago. I want to talk about 
energy, just for a second and power, and really I'm going to 
focus in on power. In the world I live in, we need power. We 
need power for the tractors to pull a big implement or a large 
combine. Or I think about the trains that haul our wheat and 
products to Mexico and across the country. I think about our 
big semi-trucks full of cattle. We need power.
    And what seems counterintuitive to me with electric 
motors----
    The Chairman. Senator, excuse me one second. Would someone 
mute their mic, if they would. Maybe it is on--there we go. 
Whoever that was, thank you.
    Go ahead, Senator. I am sorry.
    Senator Marshall. That is all right. Hopefully, Mr. 
Satterthwaite is hearing my question.
    It seems counterintuitive to me when you are trying to get 
power from electric motors that they weigh so much you would 
have to--disproportionately, you have to add more and more 
electric generators, electric motors and you lose so much of 
that power just to support the weight of it versus your 
traditional combustion engines--we just, you know, we keep 
adding cylinders. So it seems to be more efficient when you are 
looking for power. What does Cummins think about the power 
situation from electric motors?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Thank you for your question, Senator. 
Cummins is investing in all technologies right now, internal 
combustion, diesel, natural gas, and as I mentioned, also 
battery electric. We see real tradeoffs between the power 
density, the amount of power you can generate for the amount of 
weight that you're putting on a vehicle and we still see that 
tradeoff as being very challenging for batteries. The more 
power you need, the more the batteries weigh and you lose, to 
your point exactly, you lose payload.
    And so, we believe that the right technology for power-
dense applications is hydrogen fuel and a hydrogen fuel cell 
which can operate and deliver power much more equal to the 
current diesel engines for the same or lower weight and that's 
the entire weight of the system. So that would include the fuel 
cell, the tank, and the hydrogen and our comparisons are always 
against the diesel engine today with the tank and a tank full 
of diesel. So we do see challenges for electric batteries in 
these power-dense applications, as you mentioned, and we are 
investigating hydrogen to try to 
resolve--try to provide zero emissions and still get the same 
power and----
    Senator Marshall. But, if I could interrupt just to kind of 
move on here. If, in the meantime, while we are waiting on that 
technology, what has been the impact to biodiesel and renewable 
diesel on the carbon footprint of your diesel engines? Do you 
see that as a great opportunity to keep decreasing our carbon 
footprint?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Cummins does. All of our engines are 
certified to B20 so they can run on 20 percent biofuel mixed 
with regular diesel. Current amounts of biofuel that I recall 
are available in the U.S. only allow really what we call B5. So 
there is an opportunity to use more biodiesel and reduce 
emissions that way, but renewable diesel is quite exciting.
    Senator Marshall. Yes.
    Mr. Satterthwaite. And the most exciting part about 
renewable diesel is it can reduce emissions in our existing 
fleet of trucks and other diesel-powered equipment that are on 
the road today. So we're not just changing the future, we're 
actually improving the current fleet significantly.
    Senator Marshall. So the renewable diesel looks just like 
traditional diesel to your engines?
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Yes, based on what we know so far, 
Senator. The details, of course, are important and I'm not 
aware of every renewable detail, but in general, that is the 
perspective we're taking and the benefits are real.
    Senator Marshall. Great, thank you.
    I am going to move to Ms. Speakes-Backman. Welcome. Are you 
familiar, is there any data out there that show the carbon 
footprint to build an electric car versus to build a 
traditional combustible engine car?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for your question, first of 
all, and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness in thinking 
through the life-cycle carbon impact of the vehicles. I will 
have to get back to you on the specific data points, but I am 
absolutely sure that we have that, but I will certainly get 
back to you on that response.
    But again, I appreciate the way you're thinking through the 
life cycle of the----
    Senator Marshall. Right, yes. I've got to continue through 
the life cycle, from an electrical generation standpoint to 
produce the energy for an electric car versus using renewable 
diesel or biodiesel, are you--are there metrics out there for 
that as well?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you again for the question. We 
examine, at the Department of Energy and across our Sustainable 
Transportation Office, we examine different types of fuels that 
are carbon neutral or carbon zero fuels that can impact each of 
the different applications. So we're looking at electric 
vehicles for the light duty vehicle type and passenger cars. We 
look at bio----
    Senator Marshall. But when you say carbon zero, are you 
referring, I mean, certainly to generate electricity for any 
type of electric car uses carbon. You use carbon to generate 
the electricity. And that is what I am trying to figure out--
how much carbon do we use to make renewable diesel versus the 
electricity for a car, and that is certainly a metric we should 
be able to get, I would think.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Certainly, and we'll be certain to 
follow up with you.
    Senator Marshall. Okay. One more--my last question for you. 
How do we measure the environmental impact of disposing of the 
batteries?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you for that question as well. 
We are working on a number of initiatives on recycling and 
reuse and their carbon impact. We've mentioned a few of those 
programs earlier today with the ReCell and the prizes that we 
have going. We're working on that aspect.
    Senator Marshall. Well, I know there is a future, that we 
are hoping we are able to recycle, but right now, certainly, 
there is an environmental impact--to do something--as we 
dispose of the electric batteries. How are we measuring that 
impact?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Certainly, we are measuring that 
impact with respect to the electric vehicles as well as all 
types of vehicles, whether they be internal combustion or 
electric vehicles.
    Senator Marshall. Okay. Thank you and I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    We will go back to Senator Hoeven at this time.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Oh, I am sorry. Senator Hoeven? I am so 
sorry, I have to go to Senator Hickenlooper first, then I will 
come to you.
    Senator Hoeven. That is what I thought. Absolutely.
    The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper, I am sorry.
    John, you are on mute, buddy. There we go.
    I am sorry, brother. I did not mean to knock you off.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Am I off mute?
    The Chairman. You are on now. You are on, sir.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Okay.
    Small businesses are at the forefront of the clean energy 
economy and I think promoting these new technologies in 
renewable energy and energy efficiency takes on increasing 
importance. As we discussed today, the transportation sector is 
responsible for the largest share of U.S. greenhouse gases and, 
given the urgency of climate change, it is critical that we use 
every tool to address this head-on.
    So Ms. Speakes-Backman, how can DOE better partner with 
small businesses and universities and the federal labs to 
accelerate the innovation that is going to ultimately lead to a 
more successful addressing of the climate challenge?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. I so appreciate that question, 
Senator, and thank you for your leadership in the work that you 
do.
    There are a number of ways that the Department of Energy, 
through its funding opportunities, encourages small business 
investment. One of those--we actually just had a roundtable of 
small businesses through our Advanced Manufacturing Office, 
where we work on, actually, workforce training. They are 
college students learning how to do energy efficiency upgrades 
as well as making sure that those upgrades are applied to small 
businesses. We also have a small business investment research 
program and a number of different ways that we are looking to 
expand our involvement with small businesses at the community 
level and at the state level. So thank you very much for that 
question.
    And if you have more ideas, we are thinking through our big 
ideas across Department of Energy and within EERE and 
especially within the Vehicle Technologies Offices.
    Senator Hickenlooper. Great, thank you.
    The Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Loan Program, 
which has supported the manufacturing of light duty vehicles 
and the qualifying components, how can that direct loan program 
better support the small manufacturers, the guys who are just 
getting off the ground, but are beginning to get some momentum 
and help make this an emerging industry?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Yes, thank you for the very direct 
question. The Loan Program Office program really focuses on the 
light duty vehicles only, but not all small businesses are 
working just on the light duty vehicles, some are looking at 
medium duty vehicles and some are doing a longer haul. And so 
being able to use that funding source to apply to a larger 
spectrum of what we know can help reduce carbon across our 
transportation sector would certainly be helpful across the 
hydrogen work that we do and across the biofuels that we work 
with.
    Senator Hickenlooper. That is great. I am so enthusiastic 
about this. As we get more resources to these smaller 
manufacturers and to smaller partners with DOE the rate of 
innovation is going to continue to increase.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Absolutely.
    Senator Hickenlooper. I yield the rest of my time.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Before I go to Senator Hoeven, Senator Barrasso.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
    Just to put into the record a few things. I have a letter 
from the National Association of Convenience Stores, the 
National Association of Truck Stop Operators, and the Society 
of Independent Gasoline Marketers of America. The letter 
outlines the groups' recommendations to improve the 
environmental characteristics of transportation fuels. I ask 
unanimous consent to introduce that, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Without objection.
    [Letter for the record follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Senator Barrasso. And I have a March 13th article published 
by Bloomberg, entitled, ``Electric Cars Will Cost More Using 
Ethically Sourced Batteries.'' The article discusses a report 
from a panel of scientists to the European Union outlining the 
child labor and human rights abuses associated with cobalt 
production in Congo--some of the things we have discussed here, 
and it goes on with the risks associated with lithium, natural 
graphite, manganese, and nickel. And unanimous consent, also, 
to admit that.
    The Chairman. Without objection.
    [Bloomberg article follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate 
the witnesses being here.
    I would like to start with Ms. Speakes-Backman. In North 
Dakota, we are working very hard to do what we call, ``crack 
the code'' on carbon capture and storage. Obviously, it is 
technologically feasible. But we have got to make it 
commercially viable or commercially feasible to do it from our 
coal-fired electric plants. We are also doing it with the 
CO2 from ethanol plants. And we have put the 
regiment in place in our state to do it, and we are EPA-
approved. Now we need DOE's help to put the equipment on these 
plants to separate and capture CO2, and like I say, 
do it in a commercially viable way.
    So A, we would ask for your help in that endeavor and link 
it to one of the things we are talking about today, which is 
hydrogen as a fuel source. So please tell me if you are 
committed to helping us get that done and how we are going to 
do it together.
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Thank you so much for the question. I 
keep flipping on and off my volume there.
    Certainly, carbon capture and storage, as part of the 
Department of Energy's Fossil Energy Office, has been working 
very hard and I have had the joy to work with Jen Wilcox, who 
is leading that effort to see where we can collaborate, 
especially on issues of carbon capture and how it may be 
involved in the development of hydrogen for a cleaner energy 
support. And I really look forward to working with you to see 
how we can leverage across all the energy offices. We have 
Fossil Energy, EERE, of course, the Office of Electricity, to 
make sure that we can work toward less carbon-intense fuel 
sources across the energy sector.
    Senator Hoeven. Well, that is it exactly--and we already 
have partnership arrangements with you at DOE and so are you 
committed to work across the different entities within DOE, 
help coordinate their efforts in support of this objective?
    Ms. Speakes-Backman. Yes, sir. I am happy to coordinate and 
collaborate across the other offices within DOE.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you and we very much look forward to 
working with you to do just that. So thank you so much for your 
response.
    Mr. Satterthwaite, in Dickinson, we have a facility that we 
are working now. It was actually originally constructed as a 
diesel facility to produce diesel from oil, but now we are 
actually converting that to a renewable diesel facility that 
would produce about 12,000 barrels per day of renewable diesel 
from corn and soybean oil. Talk to me a little bit about what 
you see for--first, that it is usable in any current diesel 
engine. Is that correct? And then talk about some of the 
benefits and what you see as the marketplace for the renewable 
diesel.
    Mr. Satterthwaite. Thank you, Senator.
    I'll first start by saying I'm not a fuels expert so I 
can't speak specifically to the fuel, but it is my 
understanding that the renewable diesel fuels that are being 
developed are interchangeable and usable, definitely, in 
Cummins' diesel engines, but I think across the industry and 
with our competitors as well. And so the huge benefit and 
opportunity I see for renewable diesel is not just the 
opportunity to put new product into the market that is low 
emissions, but to actually reduce the emissions of every single 
engine that's in the market and working today. That is the big 
opportunity, both from a market and a carbon reduction 
perspective.
    And so we are excited by the opportunities of low-carbon 
fuels and what that can mean to reducing the carbon impact of 
not only tomorrow's products, but yesterday's and today's 
products as well.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
    And I am probably not going to get this name just right, 
but I am going to try, Nkurunziza? Sir, if I didn't get your 
name correct, I apologize, but talk to me about getting some of 
these rare earth elements out of coal, instead of from China. 
That is something that we are working on. Do you think that is 
something that should have strong support from the DOE and 
something that we can do?
    Mr. Nkurunziza. Thank you for the question.
    I think now, even America is producing rare earths again. 
It has the Mountain Pass Mine in California that had been 
closed for several years. It was closed, I think, in 2002. So 
now it's back in operation. It was closed because of 
environmental concerns. Now again, coming back with new 
technologies, I think they are now able to mine rare earth 
again. And America now is becoming again, a leader, really, in 
the production of rare earth.
    Now, the other point I made earlier is that there are other 
countries other than China, where you can find these rare 
earths--Australia, a few countries in Africa, and some of them 
are actually underexplored. So I think exploration is also 
something that maybe presents a number of opportunities for 
American firms. I think America is back, really, in the rare 
earth sector and I think that is very good for the American 
economy.
    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Are there any other Senators that we have or on video here 
that wish to speak?
    [No response.]
    The Chairman. If not, I want to thank all of the witnesses 
for joining us this morning for your discussion. Your input was 
extremely, extremely helpful for all of us and I am sure we 
will be calling on you further as we move legislation.
    Members will have until close of business tomorrow to 
submit additional questions for the record.
    The Chairman. The Committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

                      APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

                              ----------                              

[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                               Exhibit E:

                        Expert Report of Mark Jacobson, Ph.D.
                        
                        
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                   [all]