[Senate Hearing 117-107]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-107
HAALAND NOMINATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
to
CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF THE HONORABLE DEBRA HAALAND
TO BE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
----------
FEBRUARY 23 and 24, 2021
----------
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
43-821 WASHINGTON : 2023
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia, Chairman
RON WYDEN, Oregon JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont MIKE LEE, Utah
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico STEVE DAINES, Montana
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
Renae Black, Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
FEBRUARY 23, 2021, 9:34 A.M. and FEBRUARY 24, 2021, 10:07 A.M.
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from West
Virginia
Barrasso, Hon. John, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
Wyoming........................................................ 2
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico............ 4
WITNESSES
Young, Hon. Don, a U.S. Representative from Alaska............... 5
Haaland, Hon. Debra, Nominated to be Secretary of the Interior... 7
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Ak-Chin Indian Community:
Letter for the Record........................................ 54
Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas:
Letter for the Record........................................ 269
Alatna Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 271
Alaska Oil & Gas Association et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 101
Alaska Petroleum Joint Crafts Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 104
Alliance of Colonial Era Tribes:
Letter for the Record........................................ 273
American Clean Power Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 276
ANCSA Regional Association and Alaska Native Village Corporation
Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 107
Arizona Indigenous Peoples Caucus of the Arizona State
Legislature:
Letter for the Record........................................ 277
Asa'carsarmiut Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 279
Association of Community/Tribal Schools:
Letter for the Record........................................ 281
Association of Village Council Presidents:
Letter for the Record........................................ 282
Backcountry Sled Patriots:
Letter for the Record........................................ 284
Barrasso, Hon. John:
Opening Statement............................................ 2
Chart entitled ``Deb Haaland: In Her Own Words''............. 84
Beaver Village Council:
Statement for the Record..................................... 285
Billings Gazette Editorial Board:
Gazette opinion: Give Haaland a fair hearing, dated 2/21/2021 286
Black Mesa Residents of the Navajo Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 289
BlueGreen Alliance:
Letter for the Record........................................ 292
Branch, Ethel Billie:
azcentral op-ed entitled ``If Deb Haaland Is Confirmed as
Interior Secretary, It Would Be a Huge Win for Arizona''
dated 2/22/2021............................................ 294
Brown, Hon. Kate:
Letter for the Record........................................ 299
Calvert, Mary F. and Romano, Andrew:
yahoo!news article entitled ``Toxic Legacy of Uranium Mines
on Navajo Nation Confronts Interior Nominee Deb Haaland''
dated 2/23/2021............................................ 436
Cantwell, Hon. Maria et al.:
Letter for the Record addressed to the President, dated 5/23/
2018....................................................... 123
Chamber of Commerce of the United States of America:
Letter for the Record........................................ 301
Chevak Traditional Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 302
Chickahominy Indians Eastern Division et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 304
Chilcott, Hon. Greg:
Letter for the Record........................................ 305
Chitina Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 306
Citizens for Balanced Use:
Letter for the Record........................................ 308
Coalition for American Heritage et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 309
Coalition of Large Tribes:
Resolution No. 21-02-MNF, dated 2/19/21...................... 56
(The) Corps Network:
Letter for the Record........................................ 310
Daines, Hon. Steve:
Chart--``May Be Present'' Map for Grizzly Bears.............. 23
Chart--Quote of Rep. Deb Haaland relating to oil and gas
leasing, dated 11/19/2020.................................. 25
Chart--Various quotes of Rep. Deb Haaland from 2018 and 2020. 27
Chart--Quote of Rep. Deb Haaland relating to jobs and
transition to renewable energy, dated 10/8/2020............ 29
Chart--Quote of Rep. Deb Haaland relating to trapping on
public lands, dated 7/5/2019............................... 91
Chart--BLM & USFWS Hunting Access............................ 93
Chart--Bills co-sponsored by Rep. Deb Haaland in 2019 and
2020....................................................... 95
Map of Stonewall Vegetation Project Decision--Fire History
and Park Creek and Arrastra Creek Fires, dated 7/25/2017... 135
Day, Maggie:
Letter for the Record........................................ 312
Den Adel, Sean:
Letter for the Record........................................ 268
Eastern Shoshone Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 313
Edwards, Hon. John Bel:
Letter for the Record........................................ 117
Eight Northern Indian Pueblos Council, Inc.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 315
Fadely, William:
Letters and Documents for the Record......................... 318
Fielder, Hon. Paul C.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 368
Flanagan, Hon. Peggy:
Letter for the Record........................................ 370
Flathead County (MT) Board of Commissioners:
Letter for the Record........................................ 372
Fort Belknap Indian Community:
Letter for the Record........................................ 374
Resolution No. 10-2021, dated 1/28/21........................ 377
Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 59
Fort Sill Apache Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 379
Gwichyaa Zhee Gwich'in Tribal Government:
Letter for the Record........................................ 382
Haaland, Hon. Debra:
Opening Statement............................................ 7
Written Testimony............................................ 10
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 142
Healy Lake Village Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 383
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
Introduction................................................. 4
Hopi Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 61
Hualapai Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 388
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers:
Letter for the Record........................................ 391
International Inbound Travel Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 393
Intertribal Agriculture Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 394
Inter Tribal Association of Arizona:
Letter for the Record........................................ 63
Kalispel Tribe of Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 396
Kline, Jr., Kyle R. ``Chip'':
Statement for the Record..................................... 119
Kuskokwim River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission:
Letter for the Record........................................ 398
Lankford, Hon. James:
Map entitled ``Drilling Unit with both BLM Surface (USACE)
and minerals, as well as BIA surface and minerals''........ 37
Latinos in Heritage Conservation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 400
Lincoln County (MT) Board of County Commissioners:
Letter for the Record........................................ 402
Little Shell Tribe of Chippewa Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 403
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
Opening Statement
Mandan, Hidatsa & Arikara Nation:
Statement for the Record..................................... 111
Mineral County (MT) Board of Commissioners:
Letter for the Record........................................ 405
Montana Wilderness Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 406
Montana Residents:
Collected statements of some Montana residents for the Record 407
Muckleshoot Indian Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 413
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
Map of Federal Lands and Indian Reservations of Alaska....... 99
National Congress of American Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 415
National Recreation and Park Association:
Statement for the Record..................................... 417
National Tribal Leaders:
Letter for the Record........................................ 65
National Trust for Historic Preservation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 418
Native CDFI Network:
Letter for the Record........................................ 419
Native Peoples Action and Native Peoples Action Community Fund:
Letter for the Record........................................ 421
Native Village of Brevig Mission Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 423
Native Village of Diomede:
Letter for the Record........................................ 425
Native Village of Eyak Traditional Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 427
Native Village of Ruby:
Letter for the Record........................................ 429
Native Village of St. Michael Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 431
Navajo Agricultural Products Industry:
Letter for the Record........................................ 433
(The) Navajo Nation:
Letter for the Record addressed to Senator Kelly............. 73
Letter for the Record addressed to Senators Murkowski and
Manchin.................................................... 435
NCDP Native American Caucus:
Letter for the Record........................................ 478
Nisqually Indian Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 480
North Dakota Dem-NPL Native American Caucus:
Letter for the Record........................................ 482
Northern Arapaho Business Council:
Letter for the Record addressed to Senator Barrasso, dated 2/
19/2021.................................................... 485
Letter for the Record addressed to Acting Secretary de la
Vega, dated 2/22/2021...................................... 81
Letter for the Record addressed to the Northern Arapaho
People, dated 2/26/21...................................... 487
Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission:
Letter for the Record........................................ 488
Northwest Portland Area Indian Health Board:
Letter for the Record........................................ 490
Northwest Sportfishing Industry Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 492
Office of Hawaiian Affairs (State of Hawaii) Board of Trustees
and Administration:
Statement for the Record..................................... 493
Oglala Sioux Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 496
Resolution No. 21-38, dated 2/4/21........................... 499
O'Neal-Smith, Kevin:
Letter for the Record........................................ 502
Organized Village of Kwethluk:
Letter for the Record........................................ 503
Organized Village of Saxman, Saxman I.R.A. Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 505
Outdoor Industry Association et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 507
Paimiut Traditional Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 509
Pueblo of Jemez:
Letter for the Record........................................ 511
Pueblo of Sandia:
Letter for the Record........................................ 514
Quinault Indian Nation Business Committee:
Resolution No. 21-30-98, dated 1/25/21....................... 516
REI Co-op:
Statement for the Record..................................... 518
Rendon, Hon. Anthony:
Letter for the Record........................................ 520
Robbins, Mark:
Letter for the Record........................................ 522
Rosebud Sioux Tribe:
Resolution No. 2021-30, dated 2/24/21........................ 523
Rural Montana Foundation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 525
Sablan, Hon. Gregorio Kilili Camacho:
Letter for the Record........................................ 526
Salzmann, Michael:
Letter for the Record........................................ 527
Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community:
Letter for the Record........................................ 528
Snoqualmie Indian Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 529
Soboba Band of Luiseno Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 530
Solar Energy Industries Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 532
Southern California Tribal Chairmen's Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 534
Stauber, Hon. Pete et al.
Letter for the Record........................................ 385
Stillaguamish Tribe of Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 536
Student Conservation Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 538
Suquamish Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 539
Tanana Chiefs Conference:
Letter for the Record........................................ 541
Tanana Tribal Council:
Letter for the Record........................................ 543
Tohono O'odham Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 74
Tribal Alliance of Sovereign Indian Nations:
Letter for the Record........................................ 545
Tribal Women for Indigenous Nations:
Letter for the Record........................................ 547
U.S. Travel Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 549
Valdez Native Tribe Board of Directors:
Letter for the Record........................................ 551
Valley County (MT) Board of County Commissioners:
Letter for the Record........................................ 553
Women Empowering Women for Indigenous Nations:
Letter for the Record........................................ 554
Wrangell Cooperative Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 555
Yankton Sioux Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 557
Young, Hon. Don:
Introduction................................................. 5
HAALAND NOMINATION
DAY 1
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TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:34 a.m. in Room
SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin III,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The Committee meets today to consider the
nomination of Representative Debra Haaland to be the Secretary
of the Interior. It is so good to see her here, and she has the
Honorable Don Young with her, a dear friend of all of us for
many, many years. We want to welcome her to the Committee, and
to thank her for being here this morning and for her
willingness to serve in this important position.
Before we proceed with the nomination, I would also like to
welcome four new members to the Committee. Although this is not
the Committee's first hearing this Congress, it is the first
one since the Senate appointed our new members to the
Committee. On the Democratic side, we are pleased to welcome
Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona and Senator John Hickenlooper of
Colorado. On the Republican side, we are very pleased to
welcome Senator James Lankford from Oklahoma and Senator Roger
Marshall from Kansas. The Committee on Energy and Natural
Resources has a long, distinguished history of producing
bipartisan legislation to ensure our energy security and the
wise stewardship of our natural resources. We look forward to
working with all four of our new members in carrying on this
tradition in the most bipartisan, cooperative way.
Nearly 130 years ago, the Supreme Court described the
Secretary of the Interior as the guardian of the people of the
United States over the public lands. But the Court's
description barely scratches the surface of the broad scope of
the Secretary's responsibilities. The Secretary is responsible
for managing more than 480 million surface acres, nearly one-
fifth the land area of the United States, 700 million acres of
subsurface minerals, and 2.5 billion acres of the Outer
Continental Shelf. These lands include over 400 national parks,
over 100 national monuments, and over 500 national wildlife
refuges, along with nearly 500 dams and over 300 reservoirs
that supply water to 31 million people and irrigate 10 million
acres of farmland. In addition, the lands managed by the
Secretary produce nearly 20 percent of the nation's energy that
is critical for our energy independence, including 12 percent
of our natural gas, 24 percent of our oil, 43 percent of our
coal, half of our geothermal energy, and much of our wind,
solar, and hydropower. Those public lands also generate $12
billion for the Federal Treasury. They support 1.8 million jobs
and contribute an estimated $315 billion to the U.S. economy.
The Secretary also maintains government-to-government
relations with 574 Indian Tribes, holds in trust 56 million
acres of Indian trust lands, and provides educational services
to tens of thousands of Native American students in 23 states.
In addition, the Secretary is responsible for reclaiming
thousands of abandoned coal mine sites, paying health benefits
to miners, overseeing one of our nation's premier scientific
agencies--the U.S. Geological Survey--and protecting thousands
of endangered and threatened species from extinction. Finally,
the Secretary oversees 70,000 employees in the Department of
the Interior and the annual budget of over $21 billion. It
truly is an enormous and important job, and it is critical that
the Secretary be ready to take on the management of the
Department and have a deep understanding of the many issues
under their purview.
President Biden, in nominating Representative Haaland for
this critical role, expressed his confidence that she is up to
the task, and that she will be a true steward of our national
parks, our natural resources, and all of our lands.
Representative Haaland currently represents the First
Congressional District of New Mexico in the House of
Representatives. She served as the Vice Chairman of the House
Committee on Natural Resources and as the Chair of its
Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands
during the last Congress. As a former governor, I have always
believed that a president should be given wide latitude in the
selection of his or her cabinet, but I also take the Senate's
constitutional obligation to advise and consent to the
President's nomination seriously. Like many of my colleagues, I
look forward to hearing from Representative Haaland today, and
getting to know more about her views and the policies and
programs she will pursue, if confirmed to this important
position.
I will now recognize my colleague, Senator Barrasso, to
make his opening statement.
Senator Barrasso.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING
Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Today, our Committee is considering the nomination of
Representative Deb Haaland to serve as Secretary of the
Interior.
First, Mr. Chairman, I would like to join you in welcoming
the four new members of the Committee and I am looking forward
to their active participation in all our deliberations.
Since 2019, Congresswoman Haaland has represented New
Mexico's First Congressional District, which includes most of
Albuquerque and several surrounding pueblos and suburbs. If
confirmed, she would be the first Native American Cabinet
Secretary. For that reason, her nomination is historic and
deserves to be recognized. At the same time, I am troubled by
many of Representative Haaland's views, views that many in my
home State of Wyoming would consider as radical. The Secretary
of Interior is a critically important job to my home State of
Wyoming and to the entire West. If confirmed as Secretary of
Interior, Representative Haaland would lead an agency with more
than 70,000 employees. These employees manage 20 percent of the
nation's lands, including our national parks, our national
monuments, our wildlife refuges, our multiple use lands and the
entire Outer Continental Shelf. They also serve as managers of
the largest water supply in the West. The Secretary has a
responsibility that includes upholding our nation's trust
responsibilities to 574 federally recognized American Indian
Tribes and Alaska Natives. The Secretary also has important
responsibilities related to the U.S. territories and the Freely
Associated States.
One of the Secretary's most critical functions is to
oversee the development of traditional and renewable energy
supplies on public lands and waters. In Wyoming, we are proud
to be America's leading producer of coal, uranium, trona, and
bentonite. Wyoming ranks number one in federal production of
natural gas and number two in the federal oil production.
Almost 50 percent of Wyoming's surface area and 69 percent of
Wyoming's minerals are owned by the Federal Government. The
collective size of the surface area owned by the Federal
Government in Wyoming is, Mr. Chairman, larger than the entire
State of West Virginia.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. That was for information only.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Young. We'll get Alaska in here in a moment, but go
ahead.
The Chairman. I'm in trouble right now.
[Laughter.]
Senator Barrasso. Energy production on public land creates
good-paying jobs. It provides tremendous revenue for our state.
In Wyoming, energy and mineral activity on Department of
Interior land had a $17.3 billion economic impact for Fiscal
Year 2019 and supported over 57,000 jobs. For years, the State
of Wyoming has collected over $1 billion annually in royalties
and taxes from oil, gas, and coal produced on federal lands
within our borders. And Wyoming is not the only state that
benefits from energy production on public lands. In
Representative Haaland's home State of New Mexico, energy and
mineral activity on Department of Interior lands contributed
$21 billion in Fiscal Year 2019. New Mexico has collected, on
an annual basis, over $1 billion in royalties and taxes from
oil and gas produced on federal lands within its border.
We should not undermine America's energy production and we
should not hurt our own economy. Yet, that is precisely what
the Biden Administration is doing. By signing an Executive
Order to ban all new oil, coal, and gas leases on federal
lands, the President is taking a sledgehammer to western
states' economies. A ban on federal leasing could result in
33,000 workers losing their jobs in Wyoming. In Representative
Haaland's home State of New Mexico, 62,000 workers stand to
lose their jobs. Our states will also lose hundreds of millions
of dollars in revenue that is used for essential services,
including hundreds of millions of dollars in funding of
K-12 public education. The Biden Administration's moratorium
robs our children of their vital education funding and the
Senate agrees. On February 4th, the Senate voted 98-2 for my
amendment in an effort to restore the hundreds of millions of
education dollars that will be lost to Biden Administration
policies.
In his first month in office, President Biden has declared
war on American energy. He has crushed jobs and threatened
vital education funds for our children. Representative
Haaland's past statements show that she agrees with this
strategy. In May 2019, Representative Haaland said
unequivocally, in an interview with the Guardian newspaper, ``I
am wholeheartedly against fracking and drilling on public
lands.'' On her campaign website, Representative Haaland said
we need to ``keep fossil fuels in the ground.'' And then went
on to say, ``I pledge to vote against all new fossil fuel
infrastructure.'' Representative Haaland's positions are
squarely at odds with the mission of the Department of the
Interior. That mission includes managing our nation's oil, gas,
and coal resources in a responsible manner, not eliminating
access to them.
Now, I am willing to work with Representative Haaland and
the Biden Administration to conserve our national parks and our
monuments, to uphold our nation's trust responsibilities, and
to protect multiple use of our public lands. But if
Representative Haaland intends to use the Department of the
Interior to crush the economy of Wyoming and other western
states, then I am going to oppose the nomination.
Today's hearing gives us an opportunity to hear directly
from Congresswoman Haaland and to get more clarity regarding
her views and vision for the Department of the Interior.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to her testimony.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
And now, I am going to recognize Senator Heinrich to
introduce Representative Haaland to our Committee.
Senator Heinrich.
STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and like our
colleagues, I want to welcome our new members. It is good to
see a few more Westerners joining the Committee.
Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, it is both my
pleasure and truly my honor to introduce my colleague from New
Mexico, my Representative in the House of Representatives, and
President Biden's nominee for Secretary of Interior,
Congresswoman Deb Haaland.
Congresswoman Haaland is a member of the Pueblo of Laguna.
She is what we like to call a 35th generation New Mexican, and
as many have noted, if confirmed, she will make history as the
first ever Native American Cabinet Secretary, something that,
frankly, should have happened a long, long time ago.
She grew up in a military family. Her father was a
decorated marine combat veteran, and her mother is a Navy
veteran. She grew up like many kids with parents in the
military, moving frequently and attending 13 different public
schools over the course of her childhood. Before being elected
to Congress, she owned her own business, was the chair of the
board of a tribally-owned business, and she served as the
Tribal Administrator for the Pueblo of San Felipe.
Congresswoman Haaland knows firsthand how the decisions that we
make here in Washington affect communities across the country,
especially in rural western states. As the Representative of
the First District of New Mexico, Congresswoman Haaland has
served as the Vice Chair of the House Committee on Natural
Resources and the Chair of the Subcommittee on National Parks,
Forests, and Public Lands. As a Committee leader, she
demonstrated her commitment to working across party lines. Of
all the Members of Congress newly elected in 2018, she
introduced the most bills with bipartisan co-sponsors. I have
no doubt that Congresswoman Haaland's bipartisan experience and
her leadership will help us restore our nation-to-nation
relationship to Indian Country, and make conservation and
outdoor recreation a key part of our national economic
recovery.
What we have learned over the last several years is that
our relationship to our public lands and our loyalty to
America's special places have the ability to unite us all.
Americans want more equitable access to our public lands,
environmental justice, solutions for the climate crisis,
protection of wildlife, clean water, and rural economic
development. Congresswoman Haaland also understands that
confronting the climate crisis, not denying it, and
transforming our economy will not come without costs and
tradeoffs. That is especially true for fossil fuel workers,
including many New Mexicans, who have long powered our economy.
I see Congresswoman Haaland as a true partner for states like
ours as we diversify our economy, invest in our communities,
and remain a global leader in producing and exporting energy.
I am confident Congresswoman Haaland will use the best
available science to restore our landscapes, open up new
outdoor recreation opportunities for everyone, put our public
lands to work in confronting the climate crisis, and help
Indian Country recover and rebuild from COVID-19. I am eager to
support her confirmation so she can get to work protecting our
natural heritage for future generations, and I sincerely hope
that the other members of this Committee will join me in
supporting her nomination.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
Now I am going to introduce Representative Don Young, our
friend from the other side of the aisle, if you will. I will
have him introduce Representative Haaland.
STATEMENT OF HON. DON YOUNG,
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ALASKA
Mr. Young. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Manchin and thank you,
Mr. Barrasso, the Ranking Member and all other members of the
Committee. You may be wondering why I'm doing this. I'm here
because Debbie and I became friends when she was the Chairman
of the Lands Committee and I was the Ranking Member on it and I
have had her reach across and talk to me about issues that
affect Alaska and other areas. But I will tell you, if you
don't know, I'm going to give you a little history on the
House. I'm the oldest Member of both bodies. I have served with
10 Presidents and 15 Secretaries of Interior. There's not much
I don't and have not seen.
I have a theory, because I'm a mariner, that a captain of
the ship has a right to choose who he has as his crew. I have
not always agreed with the Secretaries of Interior, but I will
say that that's the responsibility of the President. President
Biden has chosen Deb, and she has accepted, and I would suggest
respectfully you'll find out that she will listen to you. She
may not change--like she and I do not agree on carbon fuels.
You know that. We've said this before. But it's my job to try
to convince her that she's not all right and her job is to
convince me I'm not all right. That's the important part about
the Secretary. Also, we keep in mind that another reason I'm
supporting her--she is an American Indian. I am quite proud of
that fact--Alaska Natives and American Indians, and like you
mentioned, it's long overdue, there should have been a
Secretary of Interior long before. We were fortunate to have
Morris Thompson, a friend of mine, as a BIA Director and we had
Tara Sweeney as a BIA Director, but always the BIA has been
under the--I call it under the top of the Park Service and all
their other agencies, under the Department of the Interior,
they were actually forgotten. And I think Deb will bring a new
role to this because she has an interest--of course, she is one
and she'll be able to take and raise the American Indian, the
first Americans to the position, I think, they can be and have
achieved in the State of Alaska. For that, I'm very proud of
it.
You know, and I talked--I heard her introduced by the other
members and some of the things she's done, but she worked with
me. She is across the aisle. We introduced the Indian Buffalo
Management Act, passed; the PROGRESS Act, passed; the Missing
and Murdered Indigenous Women BADGES Act, passed. This is
bipartisan. So she's been able to do that. And I would suggest
respectfully that her belonging to a pueblo or her working with
her native people will be beneficial to the Secretary of
Interior.
As the Ranking Member mentioned, a lot of responsibility,
huge amounts of land, lands that a lot of people don't
recognize, and accessibility is crucial to me as far as
America. We've had previous Secretaries of Interior that really
disallowed access and I'm saying that's inappropriate. I want
her to be able to consider the fact that there are many
accesses to these lands that are ``don't just take pictures.''
And I'm going to talk about--I love to hunt and everybody says,
well, that's terrible. It's not. It's the management of game.
And I want her to understand a lot of these lands that we're
prohibitive of might be accessible for management of fish and
wildlife.
I will say I think she is a friend and as a member of this,
I say, Administration, she'll do a good job. She'll work for us
and she'll reach across the aisle. I have a lot, by the way, at
stake here. I'm an oil producing state too and we lost a lot of
jobs, not because of Deb, we lost them because of the President
signing an Executive Order, really a hardship on us. We're
trying to explain. If we have people in the Department of the
Interior such as Deb, maybe there will be a balance. And
anybody who thinks you're going to cut off fossil fuel
immediately is smoking pot--that's legal in the State of
Alaska, by the way.
But I'm just saying, they're not realizing, you know, only
19 percent of a barrel of oil is used for propulsion. The rest
of it, if you look around this room, including that rug, all
kinds of different uses. Coal and oil molecules are the biggest
structure elements we have in our society today. And I know
this is being done because of climate change, I recognize that.
But that won't solve the problem. If we're going to do this, we
have to work into it gradually. We'll find out all those
alternate sources of energy may not be the best in the world,
like they did in Texas. So I want the Secretary, if she's
confirmed--I hope you do confirm her--understand there's a
broad picture here. And her job is, and understand this, no
longer a little cartoon. This is the big picture and she'll
have to have the responsibility to do the job I know she can
do. And I urge a confirmation of Deb for the Secretary of
Interior.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Congressman, and you are more than
welcome to stay, if you would like to. If not, we understand
you probably have a pressing schedule.
Mr. Young. You're through with me.
[Laughter.]
Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you.
The rules of the Committee, which apply to all nominees,
require that they be sworn-in in connection with their
testimony.
So if you would rise and raise your right hand,
Congresswoman.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Ms. Haaland. Absolutely, Chairman.
The Chairman. You may be seated.
I am going to ask you three questions addressed to each
nominee before this Committee.
Will you be available to appear before the Committee and
other Congressional committees to represent Department
positions and respond to issues of concern to the Congress?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Chairman.
The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
interest or create the appearance of such a conflict should you
be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
nominated by the President?
Ms. Haaland. No, Chairman.
The Chairman. Are you involved in or do you have any assets
held in a blind trust?
Ms. Haaland. No, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you.
You go ahead and make your opening statement, then we will
move to the questions.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF HON. DEBRA HAALAND, NOMINATED TO BE SECRETARY OF
THE INTERIOR
Ms. Haaland. [Greeting in native language.]
Chairman Manchin, Ranking Member Barrasso, members of the
Committee, thank you so much for having me here today. I
wouldn't be here without the love and support of my child,
Somah; my partner, Skip, who is with me this morning, sitting
behind me; my mom, Mary Toya, who is watching from Isleta
Pueblo; my extended family; and generations of ancestors who
have sacrificed so much so I could be here today. I acknowledge
that we are on the ancestral homelands of the Nacotchtank,
Anacostan, and Piscataway people.
As many of you know, my story is unique. Although today I
serve as a Member of Congress and was the Vice Chair of the
House Natural Resources Committee, if confirmed, I would be the
first Native American to serve as Cabinet Secretary. The
historic nature of my confirmation is not lost on me, but I
will say, it's not about me. Rather, I hope this nomination
would be an inspiration for Americans, moving forward together
as one nation and creating opportunities for all of us. As the
daughter of a Pueblo woman, I was taught to value hard work. My
mother is a Navy veteran, was a civil servant at the Bureau of
Indian Education for 25 years, and she raised four kids as a
military wife. My dad, the grandson of immigrants, was a 30-
year career Marine who served in Vietnam. He received the
Silver Star and is buried at Arlington National Cemetery. I
spent summers in Mesita, our small village on Laguna Pueblo,
the location of my grandparents' traditional home. It was there
that I learned about my culture from my grandmother by watching
her cook and by participating in traditional feast days and
ceremonies. It was in the cornfields with my grandfather where
I learned the importance of water and protecting our resources
and where I gained a deep respect for the Earth.
As a military family, we moved every few years when I was a
kid, but no matter where we lived, my dad taught me and my
siblings to appreciate nature, whether on a mountain trail, or
walking along the beach. I'm not a stranger to the struggles
many families across America face today. I have lived most of
my adult life
paycheck-to-paycheck. I pieced together healthcare for me and
my child as a single mom and at times relied on food stamps to
put food on the table. It's because of these struggles that I
fully understand the role Interior must play in the President's
plan to Build Back Better, to responsibly manage our natural
resources to protect them for future generations so that we can
continue to work, live, hunt, fish, and pray among them.
I understand how important the Department is for all the
stakeholders who rely on it and the communities whose economies
are connected to it. I know the bipartisan accomplishments of
this Committee stand out in Congress. Your work led to Interior
having significant resources and authorities, especially with
the Great American Outdoors Act and the Public Lands package. I
will work collaboratively with all members of this Committee to
ensure these Acts are implemented well. As Chair of the
Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands, I
also worked on these issues in Congress and listened to all of
my colleagues and constituents about ways to improve management
of the Department. I am proud of the bipartisan manner in which
we moved these bills through my subcommittee and to the House
Floor.
As I have learned in this role, there is no question that
fossil energy does and will continue to play a major role in
America for years to come. I know how important oil and gas
revenues are to critical services, but we must also recognize
that the energy industry is innovating and our climate
challenge must be addressed. Together we can work to position
our nation and all of its people for success in the future, and
I am committed to working cooperatively with all stakeholders
and all of Congress to strike the right balance going forward.
As part of this balance, the Department has a role in
harnessing the clean energy potential of our public lands and
to create jobs and new economic opportunities. The President's
agenda demonstrates that America's public lands can and should
be engines for clean energy production. President Biden also
knows that restoring and conserving our lands through a
Civilian Climate Corps has the potential to spur job creation.
If confirmed, I will work my heart out for everyone--the
families of fossil fuel workers who helped build our country,
ranchers and farmers who care deeply for their lands,
communities with legacies of toxic pollution, people of color
whose stories deserve to be heard, and those who want jobs of
the future. I vow to lead the Interior Department ethically and
with honor and integrity. I will listen to and work with
Members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. I will support
Interior's public servants and be a careful steward of taxpayer
dollars. I will ensure that the Interior Department's decisions
are based on science. I will honor the sovereignty of the
Tribal Nations and recognize their part in America's story. And
I'll be a fierce advocate for our public lands.
I believe we all have a stake in the future of our country
and I believe that every one of us--Republicans, Democrats and
Independents--shares a common bond, our love for the outdoors
and a desire and obligation to keep our nation livable for
future generations. I carry my life experiences with me
everywhere I go. It is those experiences that give me hope for
the future. If an indigenous woman from humble beginnings can
be confirmed as Secretary of the Interior, our country holds
promise for everyone.
Finally, I want to give special thanks to you, Chairman
Manchin, for calling this hearing today and for sharing with me
the issues and needs of the people that you represent in West
Virginia. If confirmed, I will listen to all of the people
represented by members of this Committee and this Congress. I
am grateful for your time today and I am ready to serve. And
thank you, Senator Heinrich, for your kind introduction. I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Haaland follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank you, Congresswoman Haaland.
And now we will begin our questions.
Congresswoman, the United States became a net total energy
exporter in 2019. It is the first time in 67 years we have been
in that position, partly due to the surge in domestic oil and
gas production. In your opening statement, you noted that
fossil energy does and will continue to play a major role in
America for years to come. So my question would be, do you
believe that it is in our best interest to maintain our energy
independence, and what role do you see fossil energy playing in
that?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Chairman, for that question.
And yes, of course, we absolutely need energy independence
and I believe President Biden agrees with that statement as
well. I know that we want to move forward with some clean
energy. We want to get to net zero and as the Chairwoman of the
Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands, yes,
25 percent of our carbon comes from our public lands. So I
think that as we move forward with the technology that you and
I spoke about when we had our conversation, we want to move
forward with innovation and all of this for our energy needs.
So, I think, that is not going to happen overnight. And so,
we will absolutely rely on the fossil energy that you and the
Ranking Member spoke about in your opening statements, but at
the same time, I think we can move forward with the technology
and innovation as well.
The Chairman. Yes, well I think you pretty much know my
position on that. Basically, I am totally committed to
innovation, not elimination, because I think we can do it in a
practical, responsible way.
I said in my opening statement that the Department of the
Interior is a massive, massive agency, and you have just heard
the responsibilities that come with being head of that agency.
So if you are focusing on the big picture, what are your top
priorities that you see might need to be changed, or that you
would like to have for your leadership?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Chairman.
Well, of course, I feel, as I mentioned in my opening
statement, my mom was a federal employee for 25 years. I value
the dedication of our career employees and I believe very
strongly that we need to make sure that we are appreciating
them the way they should be appreciated so they can do their
jobs. I want very much to help make sure that everyone's
working together.
With respect to clean energy, yes, that's absolutely a
priority of President Biden, his Build Back Better plan to
create those clean energy jobs across the country. The Civilian
Climate Corps that I know will engage tens of thousands of
Americans in the work of restoring our public lands is also
important. And I will say, with respect to Indian Country, I
worked very hard in Congress in my first term on broadband
internet. And I think that during this pandemic we have seen
the disparities that a lot of communities face as that has
unfolded. Broadband internet service and, of course, I will say
with respect to Indian Country, missing and murdered indigenous
women--I am grateful for the help of Senators on this side of
the Capitol who have helped me move that issue forward. I think
we have--with two bills passing, that's the tip of the iceberg.
The Chairman. Since 1977, coal companies--and I am very
familiar with coal country and coal companies that work in
those areas--have paid a fee for every ton of coal they have
mined to fund the Abandoned Mine Land Reclamation Program. We
call it the AML program. If confirmed, you will oversee the
agency that administers the AML program, the Office of Surface
Mining Reclamation and Enforcement, which we call OSMRE.
Hardrock mining has not had any changes in their law since
1872. They do not adhere to the same restrictions that we do.
We have talked about making those changes that are most
responsible and most needed. We are not hindering any company
whatsoever, except we have an awful lot of hardrock mining that
has gone unclaimed and unrestored that could be put back in
productive use.
I just want to know, if confirmed as Secretary, do you
intend to continue supporting the extension of the fee
collection authority under the Surface Mining Control and
Reclamation Act (SMCRA)? That is the AML money that a lot of
people want to eliminate, and I think it would be detrimental
to our environment. And, do you support extending those fees
for an additional 15 years? That is what we are talking about
to take care of all the abandoned mines. And, would you be
receptive to looking at hardrock mining, to make sure they come
into compliance to take care of their responsibilities?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Chairman.
And yes, I'm very familiar with abandoned mines and we have
a lot of them in New Mexico, particularly on the Navajo Nation
and we've seen that it's polluted water. And so I agree
wholeheartedly that we need the resources to make sure we're
protecting the health and safety of our fellow Americans. And
so I look forward to working with you on this issue and I just,
yes, I think that if we have the resources to clean those
things up, that it will make life easier for everybody.
The Chairman. Thank you, Congresswoman.
I have many more questions, but my time is up, and I am
going to go now to my friend, Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much, Senator Manchin.
I would just like to follow up on some of the things that
Senator Manchin started with. Yes or no answers on this, if you
could.
As a general matter, should the Federal Government continue
to permit oil and gas wells in this country?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, and I believe that is happening.
Senator Barrasso. Good.
And as a general matter, should the Federal Government
continue to permit coal mines in this country?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, since, Ranking Member, if I could just
say I know that coal mines were not a part of President Biden's
Executive Order.
Senator Barrasso. As a general matter, should the Federal
Government continue to permit copper, lithium, and other
hardrock mines in this country? Senator Manchin was just asking
about some hardrock mining issues.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I believe that if we do these things
in a responsible manner and protect the health and safety of
workers, I see us moving forward. The Earth is here to provide
for us and that is my belief.
Senator Barrasso. As a general matter, should the Federal
Government continue to permit natural gas pipelines in this
country?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, as I mentioned in my opening
statement, I believe this will go on for quite some time and I
know that President Biden has put a pause on new leases, not
existing ones.
Senator Barrasso. The question was on pipelines. So as a
general matter, should the Federal Government continue to
permit oil pipelines in the country?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, with respect to the Department of the
Interior, wherever pipelines fall under the authority of the
Department of Interior, of course----
Senator Barrasso. As a general matter, should the Federal
Government continue to permit electrical transmission lines in
this country?
Ms. Haaland. I believe that that would help our energy
needs, sir.
Senator Barrasso. And as a general matter, should the
Federal Government continue to permit natural gas or nuclear
power plants in the country?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I assume that--what I would like to
say is, if I'm confirmed as Secretary, of course I would follow
the law on all of these things.
Senator Barrasso. Yes, I think one of the concerns that we
have is that--there are three Senators on this Committee who
are medical doctors. We have Dr. Cassidy, who is a
gastroenterologist. Dr. Marshall is an obstetrician. I am an
orthopedic surgeon. And just a couple of months ago you
tweeted, ``Republicans don't believe in science.'' A pretty
broad statement that you made there and this was in October
2020, so not too long ago. Now we are also Republicans. Do you
think that as medical doctors we don't believe in science? I
mean, how do you stand by this statement?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I--yes, if you're a doctor, I would
assume that you believe in science.
Senator Barrasso. We are Republicans as well. So, I mean,
it is concerning to those of us who have gone through training,
believe in science and yet, for a broad brush to say that we
are all disbelievers, you know, it is a concern to those of us
as we are here today to ask questions.
So, you know, in his first few weeks in office, President
Biden issued several orders, as we talked about--banning new
oil and natural gas leasing on federal lands and waters. It is
estimated this long-term leasing ban is going to cost your home
State of New Mexico 62,000 jobs and my home State of Wyoming
33,000 jobs. A long-term leasing ban is also going to cost--and
I can kind of go around the table here of members on this
Committee--Louisiana, 48,000 jobs; Colorado, 18,000 jobs;
Mississippi, 14,000 jobs; North Dakota, 13,000 jobs; Utah,
11,000 jobs; 7,000 jobs in Alaska and Montana. Those are just
jobs represented by people on this Committee.
Now, you had said you will work your heart out for
everyone, including fossil fuel workers. My question is for
you, why not just let these workers keep their jobs?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it is my understanding that President
Biden has put just a pause on new leases. He didn't ban new
leases. He didn't put a moratorium on new leases. It is a pause
to review the federal fossil fuel program. And so, I know that
there are still thousands of leases and thousands of permits
that are moving forward and----
Senator Barrasso. And if confirmed, would you tell the
President that it is unwise to continue the pause as a
permanent ban?
Ms. Haaland. I don't believe that it is a permanent ban,
Senator. I am more than happy to work with you and to work
with, of course, at the pleasure of the President and along
with, if I'm confirmed, my colleagues, to make sure that we are
doing everything we can to create jobs for Americans.
Senator Barrasso. President Biden has justified his ban on
new oil and gas leasing on federal lands and waters--he cited
climate change. Are you aware of any evidence that suggests
that a ban on oil and gas leasing on federal lands and waters
was going to reduce the world's total production of oil and
gas?
Ms. Haaland. I bet--no, sir.
Senator Barrasso. And are we aware of any evidence that
suggests that a ban on oil and gas leasing on federal lands and
waters is going to reduce the world's total consumption of oil
and gas?
Ms. Haaland. Ranking Member, I haven't actually looked at
all of these statistics, but I believe that it's a situation
where everyone should work together.
Senator Barrasso. Yes, because it seems that the
President's ban on oil and gas leasing is not going to reduce
the world's production or consumption of oil and gas. So I
would just return to the question of why wouldn't we let these
Americans keep their jobs because we are not seeing any other
country that has banned energy production because of climate
change. Russia has not done it--Saudi Arabia, Iran, India,
China. So I continue to believe it is a misguided decision by
the President.
Thanks so much, and I have questions for a second round,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Cantwell.
Thank you, Senator.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Congresswoman Haaland, congratulations on your historic
nomination, and I so appreciate your leadership in the House. I
tell you, you had one of the greatest moments, I think, for the
State of Washington, when you led the final passage of the
Spokane Settlement bill, to see a Native American woman
standing there on the House Floor, helping us get something
passed that took such a long time, and, I would venture to say
that, if you had been Interior Secretary during that time
period, we might have actually gotten this done sooner. So mark
me down as one who very much appreciates the fact that the
Secretary of Interior being Native American will give us an
extra advantage on BIA issues that are so important to Indian
Country overall. So thank you for that.
I am so glad you mentioned the Great American Outdoors Act.
I almost feel like your nomination is this proxy fight about
the future of fossil fuels. You have already stated very
clearly here that you are going to carry out President Biden's
agenda. We very much appreciate the fact that you are doing
that, and that is what, I think, a President deserves in his
nominee.
I think, with the Great American Outdoors Act, we saw the
value of public lands. In fact, we saw how the value of
creating more outdoor recreation helped a juggernaut of an
industry now become the third largest employer, just behind
finance and healthcare, in the United States of America. So I
hope that our colleagues will think about our bipartisan
success there, and how much those public lands mean to us from
an economic revenue perspective.
One of the things I wanted to ask you about, obviously on
the coal leasing front, is that under Secretary Jewell and the
Obama Administration, we were trying to get accurate
assessments of the value of federal leasing of coal revenues.
When I was Ranking Member, we pushed for this because,
obviously, we have a lot of coal trains that go right through
the State of Washington. The impacts of that accurate coal
price matter because of mining in places like the Powder River
Basin, which accounts for 40 percent of the nation's annual
supply, and impacts communities all across our country. I want
to make sure--because the Trump Administration overturned that
assessment--I want to make sure that, despite that decision,
you are going to work to make sure that there is a fair value
for the taxpayer on the price of coal leasing, and the economic
and climate impacts that it has.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, our public lands belong to all of us
and taxpayers deserve to have a fair return. So I look forward
to having more conversations about this and appreciate you
raising this issue with me.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
On the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, I wanted to make
sure that you are committed to using a science-based approach
when it comes to protecting the arctic wildlife. I am glad that
the President has taken action to stop leasing, but what can
you tell me about your efforts to promote a science-based
approach to protecting the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?
Ms. Haaland. I can promise you that, if I'm confirmed as
Secretary, that we will be guided by science in all of those
decisions.
Senator Cantwell. On the issue of wildfires, which is a big
Pacific Northwest issue, the Department of the Interior has key
tools that we have now given to it in the last big fire
package, which we were able to work on together. This is new
technology for everything from forecasting, to locating
firefighters, to implementing coordination with air support.
Will you commit to continue to work to rapidly implement those
provisions of the most recent legislation on fighting fire?
Ms. Haaland. I believe very strongly, Senator, that
technology can play an incredibly helpful role in detecting
fires and yes, I appreciate you caring about that issue as
well.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
Lastly, we were successful, with Chairwoman Murkowski, in
passing the Yakima Basin Water Strategy bill, which is really
about helping the Pacific Northwest come up with better
strategies for farming, for fishing, and for environmental
issues. I hope you will continue to work with us on the Yakima
Basin implementation, and moving forward on good water strategy
for the Northwest.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, this is our, well, our second
conversation. I'm sure we'll have many more conversations and I
will look so forward to hearing more and I think that with
respect, if I'm confirmed, yes, we need to keep moving issues
forward for the American people.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Lee.
Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Representative Haaland, for being here and for
your willingness to serve, if confirmed.
In 2019, you sent a letter to the Department of the
Interior, the Department that you have now been nominated to
lead. And in that letter, you mentioned some concerns that you
had with decisions regarding national monuments. And as I
recall, the decisions in particular you were referring to,
dealing with monuments, were things that you were worried might
have been influenced by those who graze, mine, or use water on
federal lands. So I want to ask you a question, just a brief
yes or no answer will suffice here. Do you think it is
appropriate for stakeholders--people who have some sort of
economic interest in the land or some sort of connection to the
land, like communities where people use those lands for grazing
and for other purposes, incidental and necessary to their day-
to-day lives--to be involved in the national monument
designation process? Or were you saying in that letter that you
think such people should not have a role in it?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I think, with national monument
designations, of course, it's folks on the ground,
stakeholders, everyone deserves to have a say in those.
Senator Lee. Okay.
Ms. Haaland. We've had some of those come through our
Committee and I realize it's a long process.
Senator Lee. I am pleased to hear that you are okay with
having stakeholders have a say in it because people who live
close to the land are very much affected by it.
Now, in Utah, national monuments have become something of a
political football and they are certainly poised to become even
more of a political football, one that is tossed back and forth
between political parties. Now, President Clinton and President
Obama, respectively, designated some national monuments in
Utah. President Clinton designated the Grand Staircase-
Escalante National Monument back in 1996 and then 20 years
later President Obama designated the Bears Ears National
Monument. President Trump reduced those monuments, consistent
with the language of the Antiquities Act, requiring that the
monument extend no further than the space that is necessary to
be set aside to protect the purposes at issue. Do you think it
is helpful when monuments end up bouncing back and forth
between Presidential administrations? Is that a good thing or a
bad thing for the American people and those who live near and
are affected by these lands?
Ms. Haaland. I understand what you're saying, Senator, and
I know that the Antiquities Act is reserved for the President,
whoever that may be and not the Secretary of Interior, but I
will say that, yes, it does appear that those things have gone
back and forth depending on who's in office.
Senator Lee. Do you think that this ricochet effect that we
are talking about could be a result of Presidents making
monument designations that are not broadly supported by both
political parties, particularly within the communities most
immediately affected by them?
Ms. Haaland. Well, it has been my experience--most of the
lands bills, most of the legislation that has come out of my
subcommittee and our committee of natural resources on the
House side, have been more successful when they've been
bipartisan.
Senator Lee. Yes.
And in this circumstance with national monuments, because
we have given--some 110 years ago, quite inadvisably in my
opinion--we have given presidents sweeping authority over this
area, which eliminates, as they might see it in the moment, the
need for bipartisan action. And yet, I think, in order to avoid
the ricochet effect that we are talking about, that we both
agree is a bad thing, we need to make sure that there is
widespread local buy-in. We did not have that with Bears Ears
in 2016. We did not have that with Grand Staircase 20 years
earlier.
And I think it is important to point out here, I want to
make sure you are aware that of the 11.5 million acres of
national monument designations occurring on land among 40
states over the last 25 years, 3.25 million of those are in
Utah. Now that is 28 percent. Some of these monuments are quite
large. In Utah, the Grand Staircase and the Bears Ears national
monuments were originally 1.9 million acres and 1.3 million
acres. Added together, that is larger than two Delawares. Do
you think monuments of this size accurately reflect and embody
the charge that Congress provided in the Antiquities Act, to
the effect that, ``the limits of the parcels shall be confined
to the smallest area compatible with the proper care and
management of the objects to be protected.'' Is that usually
something that in one state will be larger than two Delawares?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I want to say I'm a little jealous
that you're from Utah and I'm from New Mexico because I know
you have so much beautiful land there and a lot of history.
I've been to Bears Ears and the Pueblo Indians ancestral home
land is there and I realize it covers a very wide space.
Senator Lee. I appreciate you paying the compliment to my
state. It is beautiful. It is beautiful. But the monument
designation does not make them more beautiful. It does tend to
make the communities that do not support them impoverished and
that is what concerns me.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate you sharing
that knowledge with me.
The Chairman. Senator Sanders.
Senator Sanders. Can you hear me?
The Chairman. We got you.
Senator Sanders. All right.
I am going to start off by asking you a very broad, but
important, question. The scientific community is telling us
that if we do not get our act together and transform our energy
system away from fossil fuels, there will be irreparable damage
done to our country and to the world in, really, just a very
short period of time. Do you agree with that assessment that
climate change is a major threat to the United States and the
world?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator.
Senator Sanders. Can you give us some ideas as to the role
that you will be playing in helping us cut carbon emissions and
create the kinds of jobs that working families in this country
desperately need?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much for the question
and if I'm confirmed as Secretary, I would be very proud to
move President Biden's Build Back Better plan forward. That is
a plan to create millions of jobs in clean energy, yes, the
Civilian Climate Corps, as I mentioned in my opening statement,
tens of thousands of jobs, inspiring young folks to restore our
public lands and, hopefully, find careers in those areas.
Additionally, we know that, and Senator Manchin mentioned this
earlier, abandoned mines that need to be taken care of. Those
are all jobs for Americans. Orphaned gas wells--President
Biden, I think he added up 250,000 jobs with respect to doing
just that.
So I believe there are millions of jobs in a clean energy
future for Americans and I, if I'm confirmed, I'd be honored to
help the President move those forward.
Senator Sanders. Well I am very excited about the concept
of the Civilian Climate Corps because my experience suggests
that there are millions of young people who would love the
opportunity to help transform our energy system and help clean
up the pollution that currently exists. If they can get the
training that they need, I think it would be a huge step
forward for our younger people, and for our economy as a whole.
So I am excited about the Civilian Climate Corps and if you
are, in fact, confirmed, I look forward to working with you to
make that happen.
Let me switch gear and, Congresswoman, it is no secret that
you are a proud Native American, and under the Interior
Department, there is the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Sadly, it is
no secret that the way our government, from day one, from
before we became a country, has treated the Native American
people, has been nothing less than shameful. I have been on
reservations in this country where the life expectancy is less
than Third World countries. Can you tell us some of your ideas
as to how we can improve life for Native American people and
improve, in fact, the functioning of the Bureau of Indian
Affairs?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And first of all, I want to acknowledge the career staff,
the career employees at Interior and across our government who
have worked extremely hard over the decades. My mother was one
of those. I mentioned earlier missing and murdered indigenous
women, that is a very tragic issue in so many places, including
my home State of New Mexico. This pandemic, as I've mentioned
many times, has highlighted the disparities for communities of
color, and Native communities are among those. I've read
article after article on the Navajo Nation. People might have
running water, but it's polluted from the mines.
So there are so many ways. I think that if we were able to
get broadband internet to make sure that Native children have
the educational opportunities and the telehealth opportunities
for everyone, that that would be an excellent start and----
Senator Sanders. Congresswoman, if you could, say a word
about healthcare. My impression is that, at least in various
parts of the country, the Indian Health Service has not been
providing the quality or accessibility to healthcare that
people need. Can you say a word about that one?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And yes, the Indian Health Service, which I have used many
times from the time I was a young child--I can't blame the
employees and the staff who dedicate their lives to caring for
people. It's the job of the Federal Government to live up to
the trust responsibility. And again, this pandemic has
highlighted the disparities in the Indian Health Service. And I
hope that we'll be able to get to a place where they have the
resources they need. Currently, there's a hospital that's on
Acoma Pueblo that we've been dealing with, closing down in the
middle of a pandemic. These are things that we need to keep an
eye on. If people, if you don't have your health, you don't
have anything and everybody deserves to get the healthcare they
need, when they need it.
Senator Sanders. Good. I look forward to working with you
on that issue as well.
As you know, Congresswoman, right at the end of his term,
the Trump Administration made a last-minute push to finalize
the transfer of the Oak Flat Area in Arizona to foreign,
private mining interests. If confirmed, will you do everything
within your power to prevent Oak Flat from being sacrificed?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you for caring about that
issue. I believe that is within the purview of the Forest
Service. However, if I have an opportunity, I would look
forward to being briefed on it to make sure that the voices of
the Tribal Nation are heard with that issue.
Senator Sanders. Well, thank you very much, and I look
forward to your confirmation and working with you in the years
to come.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Haaland, welcome to the Committee.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Daines. I want to jump right into the issue of the
Endangered Species Act and the question is, when do you believe
an endangered species has recovered and when it has recovered,
do you support delisting and returning wildlife management back
to the state?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, of course, all of those decisions are
based on science, as they should be, and I appreciate the
question. I would look forward to, if there are any issues of
that nature, if I'm confirmed, being briefed on them.
Senator Daines. So we will get into the science.
Ms. Haaland. Yes.
Senator Daines. Do you know what the recovery criteria are
for the grizzly bear in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem?
Ms. Haaland. Specifically, no, sir.
Senator Daines. So the answer is 500 bears. And would you
happen to know how many bears we currently have in the Greater
Yellowstone ecosystem?
Ms. Haaland. I do not.
Senator Daines. The most conservative estimate is 728, well
above the recovery target. Many estimates say it is closer to a
thousand bears. Well above the recovery criteria, well above
carrying capacity. Yet, on May 7, 2019, you co-sponsored
legislation that provided federal protections for the grizzly
bear in perpetuity, forever.
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Senator Daines. Why would you sponsor a bill like that when
the science tells us the bear numbers are well above the
recovery targets?
Ms. Haaland. I imagine, at the time, I was caring about the
bears.
Senator Daines. And why don't you believe the grizzly
management should return back to the states once the recovery
targets are met?
Ms. Haaland. Well, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be
returned back to the states.
Senator Daines. But that's what your legislation you co-
sponsored said, is that you would keep it in federal
protections forever, in perpetuity.
Ms. Haaland. Well, I would be happy to take a look at the
issue, Senator, if--and if I can help with that issue, of
course, I would love to speak with you more about it.
Senator Daines. Okay.
On November 19, 2020, you said that if you had it your way,
and I quote, you'd ``stop oil and gas leasing on public
lands.''
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Senator Daines. As Secretary, you will get to have it your
way. Will you recommend extending the leasing moratorium and
how do you justify this moratorium with requirements of the
federal law under the Mineral Leasing Act?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it's my understanding that it is a
pause on just new leases, not existing valid leases and if I'm
confirmed as Secretary, it is President Biden's agenda, not my
own agenda, that I would be moving forward and I appreciate
your advice on this issue.
Senator Daines. Over the last two years, you made numerous
statements in opposition of energy development including, and I
quote you, ``no new pipelines,'' in August 2018. You called for
a ban on fracking in 2020.
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Senator Daines. Oil and gas development on public lands
generates huge revenues for local schools and essential
services. I have one county in Montana for which over 90
percent of the revenues that go to their schools come from
pipelines.
Unfortunately, this is not the case for wind and solar
development on federal lands. What is your plan to make up for
any lost local revenue for public safety and children's
education?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, as I mentioned earlier, if I'm
confirmed as Secretary, it is President Biden's agenda that I
would move forward, not my own and I absolutely--nobody wants
children to not have schools.
Senator Daines. You earlier said you wanted to let the
science and the data dictate policy and outcomes, if I could
somewhat paraphrase what you said. So, I assume you would want
to make sure you look at the science and the data and not just
blindly follow any administration.
Ms. Haaland. Well, I apologize, Senator. Yes, the science
and the data, I assume it would go without saying because I
realize that the Department relies on science, but in a broader
sense----
Senator Daines. But do you support a ban on fracking and no
new pipelines?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, President Biden does not support a
ban on fracking--is my understanding, and it would be his
agenda that we would follow.
Senator Daines. Yes, but do you, personally, support a ban
on fracking and no new pipelines?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, if I could say, if I am confirmed as
Secretary, I would be serving at the pleasure of the President
and it would be his agenda that I would move forward.
Senator Daines. On October 8, 2020, you stated, ``anyone
who says we have to sacrifice jobs for clean energy is just
trying to scare us.''
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Senator Daines. We have a county--Fallon County, where
Baker, Montana, is--where 60 people have just lost their jobs
and their benefits, union jobs, directly because of President
Biden's executive actions. What jobs can they turn to now? What
do I tell these 60 families that just lost their jobs as a
result of President Biden's executive action?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I want you to know that I understand
what that's like. I have struggled, myself, as well and been
without a job at various times in my life. I will do everything
I can. As I said, I mean it, I will work my heart out for every
American. And if we can move President Biden's agenda forward
together, we can create those millions of jobs and I have every
faith that that's something that we'll be able to do.
Senator Daines. Yes, one of the ironies is these executive
actions actually increase emissions, they don't decrease
emissions. The Keystone Pipeline was a zero net carbon project
here by 2030. How do we address the increase in emissions
caused by President Biden's actions, which we've seen over the
last month?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I would be happy to be briefed on the
amount of emissions and, if I'm confirmed, absolutely work with
you.
Senator Daines. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I am out of time. I must tell you, I am just
concerned about proceeding with this nomination. The track
record and the ideology in the past, I think, will perpetuate
more divisiveness and will certainly harm Montana's economy and
that is why I have some concerns, but Mr. Chairman, thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Senator Manchin, and I
want to welcome the nominee, and I especially appreciate the
fact that Congressman Young introduced you, Congresswoman. He
has been a model for trying to work with people on both sides
of the aisle. I am going to get into that question of
bipartisan collaboration because it sounds like you are one of
the leaders in terms of actually pulling people together to
come up with bipartisan solutions. In other words, it is fine
to talk about ideas and it is also fine to say ``I am going to
be bipartisan,'' and people can say ``I will take somebody's
lousy idea.'' You have really done the hard work to put
together bipartisan coalitions.
I am going to start with the first topic of rural jobs
because, as you know, Congressman Neguse and I have put
together the 21st Century Civilian Conservation Corps, which
would put together an effort with thousands of jobs in rural
communities. I see my friend from New Mexico, who has been very
interested in this issue as well. The number of vendors, for
example, that would be selling goods and services to the 21st
Century Civilian Conservation Corps would be a huge economic
multiplier for rural communities. That is what rural jobs are
really all about.
So I think it would be great if you could talk about a
couple of the examples that were most important to you, both in
terms of generating jobs in rural communities and in terms of
coalition building because those are two sides of the same coin
in rural America. My friend from New Mexico always kids me
about our Owyhee project that you and I have talked about.
After 50 years of fighting and arguing about the Owyhee, we put
together what amounts to a first-of-its-kind coalition--
farmers, environmental folks, and the like. We will get the
jobs and we will have the benefits of the environmental
protection, which will be a big recreation engine for the area.
So talk to us a little bit about your views on rural jobs,
and you can start, for example, with the bill that Congressman
Neguse and I have. And talk about other areas that are
important to you so people walk out of here recognizing what I
saw, which is that you are actually pulling people together.
You got us sponsors for that bill with the Congressman. So----
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Wyden [continuing]. Let us hear your thoughts.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you. Thank you so much, Senator.
And yes, I couldn't agree with you more that collaboration
is absolutely important and I was the highest rated freshman
for bipartisanship in the 116th Congress. I think it's
important and, in fact, the reason that Mr. Young and I became
such good friends is that he helped me to pass a lot of bills.
Our offices worked very well together. And I think that's
important. We can, yes, we can have different views. We can
think differently. If we were all the same, we probably
wouldn't get a whole lot done either. But I feel like the
people of New Mexico sent me to Congress to get work done and
that's precisely what I've done.
I appreciate your having the opportunity to bring ranchers,
tribes, and folks together in those collaborations. My sister,
she married a rancher and gave birth to three cowboys and a
cowgirl.
[Laughter.]
That's what they do. They care deeply about the land and
their animals. And so I think that if we can all work together,
if we can--I think we can do it all. I think we can work
together. I think we can protect our public lands. I think we
can create jobs. The Civilian Climate Corps is a brilliant idea
and I look forward to young people having those opportunities.
It's a tough time in this country sometimes and not every
parent was like my dad, not everyone has the opportunity, if
they're working two and three jobs, to make sure their kids
spend time outdoors. But I think giving opportunities to those
young people will change their lives and give them the
opportunity to care deeply about our environment.
Senator Wyden. I appreciate your answer, Congresswoman. And
you know, the reality is, these kinds of efforts, like the bill
with Congressman Neguse, the 21st Century Civilian Conservation
Corps, can be a big economic multiplier, with vendors and the
private sector meeting those needs, like the Owyhee
legislation. It does not happen by osmosis. It is because you
bring people together. The Chairman and I have talked about
this very often when I was Chairman of the Committee; the first
place I went was West Virginia.
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Wyden. Because my colleague said just come on out
and listen. That is what people want. They want people to have
a chance to hear each other out and then find some common
ground. And I am convinced that, in the middle of this
pandemic, there is going to be an even greater appreciation for
collaboration than there was before, because we have to do it.
It is what the President was talking about with Build Back
Better. And you are setting a very good tone with your answers
to my questions. I look forward to supporting your nomination,
Congresswoman, and working with you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Mr. Chairman, thank you and
Congresswoman, welcome to the Committee. Thank you for being
here. I think it has been noted, certainly by my friend and
colleague, the Congressman for all of Alaska and the Dean of
the House that it is indeed very significant, your nomination
to this position as the first Native American woman. We respect
that.
We have had an opportunity to discuss the very significant,
in fact, outsized role that the Department plays over Alaskans'
lives, whether we like it or not. This is a relationship that
some have described as landlord-tenant. That is not a very good
relationship to have. We would much prefer it to be more of a
partnership.
I want to ask you in my first round of questions this
morning to focus on the public lands aspect and the role,
again, that Department of the Interior plays with us. The
Federal Government owns over 60 percent of all the land in our
state. That is not as significant as in some states, but when
you take into account that Alaska is one-fifth the size of the
Lower 48, it is a lot of land. It is critical to our resource
industry, as you know, which accounts for billions of dollars
in wages, in tax revenue, tens of thousands of jobs and
protecting those jobs is critically important at all times, but
particularly now. Our state has seen the highest loss of
revenue of any of the 50 states. We are sitting at about 33
percent revenue loss. Think about that. The next closest state
is a 20 percent revenue loss, but on average, it is less than
one percent. So we are hurting right now.
And so, when we see these Executive Orders coming out of
the White House that not only impact a resource-based state
like Alaska, but actually call us out by name--call us out by
name. We were one of only two states in the nation that were
specifically targeted by President Biden's Day-One Executive
Orders. And it was not just on Day One that we were targeted.
We were called out on seven separate occasions, which from
Alaska's perspective, you have to understand that they are
looking at this and saying ``wait a minute, why is this
Administration out to get us?'' Well, I do not think they are
out to get us, but I do think that there is a definite threat
to the resource industry that our state is blessed to be able
to host.
So if you are confirmed to this very significant position,
what is your approach going to be with regard to oil and gas
and mineral resource development within a state like Alaska?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much. And if I could
just quickly say thank you, again, for all of your help with
the missing and murdered indigenous women legislation. That
means the world to me.
Senator Murkowski. It's a big deal.
Ms. Haaland. I realize your time is limited. I mean, first
of all, Senator, I know that President Biden doesn't want to
cripple any state. He put the pause on the new leases in order
to review the program. I want you to know that if I'm
confirmed, I will rely heavily on our relationship moving
forward. I do want to work with you. I do want to make sure
that I understand the unique issues in Alaska and to make sure
that we are doing all we can to ensure that your constituents
have the opportunities that they need.
Senator Murkowski. Let me just ask then, in that line,
there have been a number of rulemakings that were finalized
under the Trump Administration. They are now being litigated in
court. This includes the Record of Decision (ROD) for Willow,
the Ambler Access Project, the issuance of leases in the 1002
Area. These RODs were developed by career civil servants
pursuant to all the environmental laws that are out there, all
the regulations, including NEPA, done through regular order in
an open and transparent process. So a direct question would be
whether you would ensure that the Department continues to
support and defend these projects and the decisions and the
environmental reviews that were completed, again, by Interior's
career employees.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And yes, of course, anything that's in the courts, of
course, we would want to get an update and a status on those
issues. Senator, what I could say is I would be very anxious to
work with you and I will follow the law. I will absolutely
follow the law, if I'm confirmed. That would be important, to
say the least, and I think you can bet that I will consult with
you regularly. I want to make the best decisions, if I'm
confirmed, for the people of your state.
Senator Murkowski. Defending these specific projects would
be critically important in following that law. I would hope
that we would have an opportunity for a second round.
The Chairman. We sure do.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First, let me start by clearing a few things up that I
heard about my home state. We have not lost thousands of jobs
in the oil and gas sector in New Mexico because there is no
ban, and because the industry stockpiled an enormous number of
leases under the fire sale that Secretary Bernhardt had at the
end of the last Administration. However, I want to say, we do
recognize that we will need to move to a fully decarbonized
economy. And frankly, pretending that is not going to happen is
not going to serve any of our workers well. I would submit the
energy workers would be best served if those of us on this
Committee show leadership by both investing in energy
communities that have put us where we are today and in the
technologies necessary to actively manage this transition.
Now, speaking of workers, I want to ask you, Congresswoman,
about the Great American Outdoors Act. It provides $9.9 billion
over the next five years to maintain and repair infrastructure
on our public lands. This is funding that can put people to
work immediately, replacing roofs on visitor centers, repairing
trails, improving campgrounds, doing things we should have done
50 years ago to invest in our outdoor recreation economy and in
rural communities. I just want to ask you, what steps can the
Interior Department take to make sure that this funding is put
to work as quickly as possible?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I know there are so, as you said,
many areas across the country. I think the best thing to do is
to make sure we are consulting with each other, that we get a
list of priorities and get to work. I can imagine that every
Senator on this Committee would have a list of priorities in
their own state for that funding and I think it would be a
tremendous boost.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
One of the things about outdoor recreation is, it really
impacts our entire state in New Mexico. There are certain
places that have oil and gas. There are certain places that
have wind potential. But outdoor recreation is something where
we can invest in practically every rural community in the
state.
As you know, the Bureau of Indian Education established a
top ten priority list for replacing BIA schools in 2016, and at
the top of that list was Laguna Elementary, which I know you
are familiar with. They received some funding in 2018, but the
project is still not finished, and it took 12 years to get
through the top ten list. So it is clear to me that this pace
is inadequate, as there are 78 schools that have been
designated in poor condition. I would just ask you, can you
commit to reviewing that school replacement list, looking for
ways to improve and speed up the process, and tell us in
Congress when we are simply not doing our part to fund these
accounts?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it would be my pleasure. I was trying
to add up how long ago I went to Laguna Elementary School,
close to 50 years ago. And so, I'm sure that it has been there
for much longer than that. So there is a lot of work to do and
our children deserve to have opportunities to learn in the best
way. So yes.
Senator Heinrich. I am sure you are overestimating how long
ago that was.
[Laughter.]
But another issue that we have had a chance to work on a
little bit--as you know, for centuries, sacred cultural items
that belong to tribal communities have been taken to foreign
countries and sold to the highest bidder. Now, we have laws in
the United States that make the sale of certain tribal sacred
objects a federal crime. However, we do not have a law against
taking those same items overseas and selling them there. That
is a loophole that we need to fix. I have legislation with
Senator Murkowski that would do that. However, even when we
have an export ban in place, there are likely thousands of
sacred objects already overseas that need to be brought back
home to tribal communities, where they belong. The Interior
Department plays a critical role in the international
repatriation of those items, working with the State Department,
the Department of Homeland Security, and others to ensure that
tribes are able to reclaim these items that have been stolen
from them.
As Secretary, will you commit to making repatriation of
these items an actual priority for the Department? It is part
of the responsibility, but I think it is something that just
has not been fully elevated to a real priority in previous
administrations.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you so much, Senator and Senator
Murkowski, for caring about this important issue. It's
heartbreaking. I've seen some of those pictures on the internet
and it's heartbreaking to know that folks who don't know the
power or the meaning of those objects, think of them as art and
they're definitely not art. So absolutely. That would be a very
important issue and I believe tribes would be grateful.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Lankford.
Senator Lankford. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Haaland, thanks for being here and for the
dialogue. I am sure you are very aware, last week across much
of the Midwest we had very extreme cold temperatures that
happened.
Ms. Haaland. Yes.
Senator Lankford. We had a test in the Southwest Power Pool
and, while there was a lot of national attention that was on
Texas and the long shutdowns there, we had issues as well. Our
wind towers froze up. In fact, for several days in the
Southwest Power Pool we were actually running more diesel power
than we were wind power, which it is not uncommon for us to run
40 percent of our power by wind power. We had a real pull on
all of our solar panels, obviously, they were covered in snow
at the time or there were very cloudy days. And so we had quite
a challenge on just being able to maintain power when we were
at negative 14 degrees. So the issues about power and
reliability and resilience matter to us.
Ms. Haaland. Yeah.
Senator Lankford. Because we want to make sure that we do
not lose access to this. So while jobs matter and those are
extremely important, it matters to every single consumer, the
cost of energy and the availability of energy and the diversity
of energy. So we are truly an all-of-the-above state as you and
I have talked about before. We have more renewables in Oklahoma
that we use in our power than New Mexico does. We are
significant in our use of renewables and appreciate those. But
we have some real challenges that we want to make sure that we
pay attention to.
So let me drill down on a few issues because of some of
your past statements, and I want to get a few things just in
conversation. The Osage Nation and the Osage Mineral Council,
they have a lot of oil and gas development in their tribal
areas. They have had a challenge--in fact, we asked them about
it. They said they have had seven years of devastation brought
on by onerous BIA regulations restricting access under oil and
gas well records and then Fish and Wildlife coming in and
adding environmental impact statements that were entirely new
to them. It is a significant portion of the income for the
tribe and it is significant to the state as well.
What would be your standards on oil and gas development,
mineral development in tribal areas?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you for that question, Senator.
And first, your comment about Oklahoma having more
renewables than New Mexico, I don't know about Senator
Heinrich, but that sounds like a challenge to me. So perhaps we
can work on that.
Senator, with respect to the pause on leases, I know that
it's just on public lands, not on tribal lands. And so tribes
should continue to move forward with their operations.
Senator Lankford. Do you assume that the rules would be
different for tribal lands as they would be on federal lands in
the days ahead because as you make recommendations--you have
made some pretty bold statements in the past, saying no
fracking, no pipelines, I mean, those are some of the
statements you have made in the past--you are going to make
recommendations to the Biden team and you have said several
times you will follow President Biden's direction but,
obviously, as Secretary of Interior you are making
recommendations then, sitting at the table as well.
Would your recommendations be different for tribal land
development than they would be for federal land development?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I want to first assure you that if I
am confirmed as Secretary that is a far different role than a
Congresswoman representing one small district in my state. So I
understand that role. It's to serve all Americans, not just my
one district in New Mexico. Of course, I can't fully answer
those questions at the moment. I am not there yet. If I am
confirmed as Secretary, I will absolutely take all these issues
into consideration and, of course, look forward to consulting
with you.
Senator Lankford. But would your recommendations be that
there would be unique difference between tribal management of
their mineral rights and oil and gas development, fracking, all
of those things, pipelines, then there would be on federal
lands?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I would be happy to look at the
issue, to study it then if I'm confirmed and speak with you
about----
Senator Lankford. Let me show you a map.
[The map follows:]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T3821.007
Senator Lankford. This is a map of one of the units for oil
and gas area, and it doesn't matter the state, but it shows
that the complexity of this for many of these leases that come
up, a portion of the land would be, in this case, it is an area
that is tribal land--that is what you see in the tan here and
then in the salmon color, it is managed by the Army Corps of
Engineers, but that still has BLM oil and gas leases on it. So
the challenge becomes that there are different sets of rules
when they go through this process. What I am trying to get at
is, this is a common look as you go through the different
leases that are there, that anytime they start to do any kind
of unit, a development, and they get complexity on what the
rules are going to be. The rules are different in each of these
areas. If you change that area from tribal land to private
land, that even changes it more.
So let me just ask you a question. Permitting wise, would
you look at this type of map and just say permits--not just the
lease, but the permits--would be different. If the federal
lands had a moratorium on them, could they still develop the
private lands? Could they still develop the tribal lands that
are, literally, right next to the federal lands?
Ms. Haaland. I understand. It's sort of a complicated
issue.
Senator Lankford. But that is what the real world looks
like.
Ms. Haaland. Yes, I understand what you're saying and I
would be happy to take a look at those, be briefed, understand
the issue far better and work with you, if there are issues in
your state.
Senator Lankford. Okay. Thank you. I look forward to a
second round.
The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is good to see you, Congresswoman.
I ask the following two initial questions of every nominee
before any of the committees on which I sit. So here are the
initial questions.
Since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unwanted
requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical
harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
Ms. Haaland. No, Senator.
Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?
Ms. Haaland. No, ma'am.
Senator Hirono. It was very nice to see my friend, Don
Young, introduce you. I have worked with him myself, and I know
how committed he is, especially to the indigenous peoples
programs. I thank you for meeting with me a little while ago to
discuss policy matters that are very important to me. And, of
course, the issues that relate to Hawaii's indigenous Native
Hawaiian community are very important to me. I note, as several
have already noted, how historic and important it is that you
will be the first Native American woman--Native American and
woman--to serve as Secretary of the Interior. I also note that
you are a 35th generation Pueblo, which means that your people
were in our country long before the rest of us ever came here.
So I think the significance of your background is not lost on
any of us.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Hirono. Based on my conversation with you, I would
expect that you will be very committed to working with us on
Native foreign issues, as well as the issues relating to other
indigenous peoples like the Alaska Natives and American
Indians. We also discussed the concern about invasive species
in Hawaii's very unique environment and, in fact, Hawaii is the
invasive species capital of the country. It is so significant
that this entire month in Hawaii has been dedicated to invasive
species awareness. I know that I can count on you to work with
me on addressing the concerns relating to invasive species.
Finally, we discussed the relationship between the United
States and the independent nations of the Republic of the
Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, and the
Republic of Palau. These relations, governed by the Compacts of
Free Association, are set to expire in 2023 and 2024. I
encourage you, should you be confirmed, to work collaboratively
with your colleagues at the Department of Defense and the
Department of State, and with the Members of Congress to find
ways to improve and expand the existing compacts through the
renegotiation process, and assure that there is a fair and
collaborative financial commitment to fund these compacts.
I am really glad, Congresswoman, that you noted the concern
regarding the missing and murdered indigenous women and
Children. This is an issue that I would like to work on with
you, and I did bring up what more we can do with Merrick
Garland, during his confirmation hearing to be Attorney
General.
You have been asked a lot of questions about fossil fuels
versus clean, non-fossil fuels, et cetera. I do not necessarily
see that as some sort of dichotomy that is necessary, but can
you discuss the job creation potential presented by clean
energy transition, even for families that have worked in the
fossil fuel industry?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate the question
and appreciate all of the issues that you raised leading up to
your question. I am grateful for your support on so many of the
issues that I worked on in Congress. And yes, President Biden
is geared up to help create millions of jobs and you've heard
us talk about the Civilian Climate Corps. You've heard us talk
about clean energy. I know that coming from a state such as New
Mexico, where we have over 300 days of sun per year and
absolutely an abundance of wind, that there are many more
places like that and I think we can move our clean energy
forward.
Part of the reason why I feel very strongly about this,
coming from New Mexico as well, is that if we have other
streams of revenue that we can move forward to fund our
schools, we don't suffer the booms and the busts that we've
experienced in New Mexico as well. So I feel strongly that
technology, moving forward in a place also like New Mexico,
with two national labs there, that the technology is something
that will absolutely make a tremendous difference, technology
and innovation, as we've already talked about. We can't
understate the value of that in the jobs that those two things
can create.
Senator Hirono. Hawaii started out as one of the most
fossil fuel-dependent states in the entire country, where we
were importing some 97 percent of all of our energy for
electricity from outside of our state. We have a very ambitious
plan, an attainable goal of becoming fuel efficient and energy
efficient by 2045. And that means that we intend to create
these kinds of energy efficient jobs in the state. So I know
that is, of course, a possibility.
I also wanted to give you an opportunity, once again, to
emphasize the importance of working in a bipartisan manner,
which you do very well. But maybe you can explain why you hold
the record for introducing more bipartisan bills than your
colleagues. We are talking about a lot of people in the U.S.
Congress, and you have a really good record.
The Chairman. Senator, your time is expiring.
Senator Hirono. Well, I just wanted to emphasize she is
really good at that.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. Okay. Thank you, Senator, thank you very
much.
Senator Cassidy.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you. Thank you, Congresswoman
Haaland. Thank you for the visit the other day. I enjoyed our
visit. Your personal story is compelling and one thing we spoke
of are those families such as yours and, frankly, such as mine
growing up, whose parents were able to have a better living
because of something. In Louisiana, many of those better
livings are related to the oil and gas industry, pipelines, et
cetera, and we understand that if there is kind of a campaign
against them, there are many families which will have a less-
bright future. So with that said, let me first ask, do you
agree with President Biden's Executive Order to stop the
Keystone XL Pipeline, knowing that 11,000 current or future
jobs are eliminated because of it?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much for the question,
and of course, I know that the Keystone has been an issue--both
sides very passionate on both sides. And with respect to
President Biden's decision, it is his decision. He's the
President. And so----
Senator Cassidy. So then let me ask you this. Let me ask
you this, and in the context, Senator Barrasso mentioned kind
of your attitude that--your perception as to how Republicans
view science. So if I could point to a State Department report,
based upon science, which said that building the pipeline
lowers global greenhouse gas emissions. If you were the
President, would you eliminate the pipeline with the 11,000
jobs and the futures that are less bright for those families
knowing that by not building it, based on science from the
State Department, we would have increased global greenhouse gas
emissions?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you.
I will be happy to read any report. I'll be happy to be
briefed on any position.
Senator Cassidy. No, but I can stipulate, if you will just
stipulate that because that is a State Department report, that
is the science. I am just hoping, no offense, that Democrats
pay attention to the science and that is the nature of my
question. So if you can accept that as a stipulation, I am
willing to get it for you, but I am just trying to understand--
is this Administration going to be, and will your Department be
guided by a prejudice against fossil fuel or will it be guided
by science?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, if I could just take the liberty of
saying I--prejudice on fossil fuels perhaps isn't the way I
would describe it. I would say that President Biden is feeling
and moving toward the tremendous opportunities that we have in
diversifying our energy resources.
Senator Cassidy. That is kind of dodging my question,
Congresswoman and I don't mean to be rude, but if the science--
is your Department going to be guided by science or by
something other than science? Let me put it non-prejudicially,
because clearly the Biden Administration was not guided by
science and Republicans, by the way, are guided by science. I
am just seeing if this Administration will be and if your
Department will be.
Ms. Haaland. I have stated many times that if I am
confirmed that the Interior Department's decisions will be
guided by science.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you.
Now, there is a Wall Street Journal article recently
pointing out that if the United States cuts its production of
oil and gas, global demand will not be affected, but global
supply will come from other countries. Intuitively, does that
make sense to you?
Ms. Haaland. I beg your pardon, Senator, I apologize, if
you could just repeat that once more?
Senator Cassidy. So there is a recent article suggesting
that even if the United States decreases production of oil and
gas that global demand will continue the same.
Ms. Haaland. Well----
Senator Cassidy. So--I am sorry, go ahead.
Ms. Haaland. No, I understand. I mean, we're hoping that
when we create some of these clean energy opportunities that
perhaps that will change.
Senator Cassidy. So when you were introduced by Congressman
Young, he pointed out that 80 percent of a barrel of oil does
not go for propulsion, rather it goes for the plastics and
chemicals essential to modernity. For example, making the
products that go into a wind turbine, the carpet that we are
both looking at right now, whatever room we are in. So, given
that even if we have clean energy, that 80 percent of it goes
for non-propulsion purposes, would you agree that it is quite
likely that, even in the rosiest scenario, there will continue
to be demand for oil and gas?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator. And I did say that in my opening
statement.
Senator Cassidy. So I guess I will finish by asking once
more. Even if we decrease production, is it reasonable to
assume that global demand will remain roughly constant and that
supply will come from other countries?
Ms. Haaland. Well, and I appreciate the logic that you're
explaining to me. I guess I would hope that moving forward we
will all realize that we have a stake in our own future and----
Senator Cassidy. Oh, I so believe that. I will close by
saying this, and it is the future of those families who just
lost their jobs because of the Keystone XL Pipeline being shut
down and others involved in an industry producing a product
that will be used worldwide, but perhaps if we are not guided
by science and logic, they will lose their future. That is my
concern. And I am not being personal with you, but I am trying
to represent those families right now who cannot speak, but
whose jobs are being lost for a political agenda, not based on
science.
I yield back.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator King.
Senator King. I first want to tell our witness that about
20 years ago, I took an RV trip with my family and, for the
first time in a serious way, visited the Southwest. I found
that the landscape was so completely different from where I
live, and it was a real revelation. Bandelier in New Mexico,
White Sands, the travel that we did in that area was just, as I
say, a revelation. And therefore, if confirmed, I want to
invite you, Representative Haaland, to come to New England, and
particularly to come to Maine and visit our incredible national
park, Acadia, and the Katahdin Woods and Waters National
Monument, which is only four years old, but is already having a
positive impact on the region where it is located. So I would
love to welcome you to Maine, and hope that you will take
advantage of that invitation, should you be confirmed, which I
hope will be the case.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, sir. Yes, I'll come. Thank you.
Senator King. Good. That was the right answer. You are
doing great so far.
Many of us on this Committee supported, very
enthusiastically, the Great American Outdoors Act, which passed
last year, as you know, but there were some disturbing
interpretations and executions of that law at the very end of
the previous Administration. I hope that you will review the
law---and I know that you supported it in the House--and be
sure that the implementation is corresponding to the intent of
Congress. I have a pet motto that implementation and execution
are as important as vision. So I hope you will commit to
working with us to be sure that the Great American Outdoors Act
is implemented in the way that was intended by Congress, to
maximize the benefits to the American people.
Ms. Haaland. I absolutely would, Senator.
Senator King. One of the issues that is of interest in New
England, and in Maine, is offshore wind. It has enormous energy
potential. There is an experimental project underway now in
Maine, called Aqua Ventus, sponsored by our University of
Maine. I think one of the important areas that you can pay some
attention to is the regulatory process and the timeliness. My
approach has always been that we want the toughest regulatory--
or the toughest environmental rules in the world, but we want
the most timely and predictable process.
I hope that is something that you can take a look at
because this is an important potential energy source. It could
really be a huge change for this country, and we want that. I
am all for protecting the environment and protecting the
fisheries, but I do not want the process itself to be a barrier
to this important development.
Ms. Haaland. I understand, Senator, and I would look
forward to working with you on any of those issues.
Senator King. My final question is on the issue which, I
think, is the low-hanging fruit of climate change, and that is
methane. As you know, there were some serious methane capture
regulations passed five or six years ago. They were essentially
repealed by the prior Administration. I hope, certainly on
public lands, that you will look to reintroducing those
regulations, which are not terribly costly--at least, that is
my understanding--but will be enormously beneficial in terms of
the elimination of greenhouse gases. As you know, methane is 80
times as dangerous as CO2. So anything we can do on
eliminating methane releases into the atmosphere is critically
important. Will you commit to reviewing those regulations about
methane release in terms of drilling on public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator. And I understand--and I
completely understand and appreciate you caring about this
issue. We should be breathing clean air.
Senator King. Well, I appreciate your testimony here today,
and your responsiveness. I guess the final question would be,
do you commit to appearing before and cooperating with this
Committee as we try to exercise our oversight role? We really
want to be partners with you in your important role at the
Department of the Interior.
Ms. Haaland. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator King. Good. Thank you very much.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator King. I look forward to supporting your nomination.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and to
the Ranking Member as well and also to Congresswoman Haaland.
Thank you for being here today, for your testimony as well as
for visiting with me on the phone earlier. I appreciate it very
much.
In North Dakota, we are an energy powerhouse for this
nation. We produce energy really from all sources except for
nuclear power, including renewables, biofuels and wind, as well
as fossil fuel, coal-fired electric and oil and gas. We are the
second largest oil producing state in the nation, producing
about 1.3 or 1.4 million barrels a day now. At one time, we
were over 1.5 million. We will probably go back well up over
that, second only to the State of Texas in terms of oil
production.
Now, we worked very hard to have the latest and greatest
environmental standards. We continue to work at that. We want
to be an absolute leader for the country in carbon capture and
sequestration. That being said, we have to have transmission
lines and pipelines to move energy to market. We have to have
that infrastructure. A very good example of that is the Dakota
Access Pipeline, which has now been operating for three years,
safely moving well over half a million barrels of light sweet
crude oil a day to refineries, particularly in the eastern part
of the country and other parts which would otherwise have to
get their oil from OPEC, Saudi Arabia. Instead, we produce it
here with good job creation.
So in the case of the Dakota Access Pipeline, which I said
has been operating now for three years safely, you were there
and protested the pipeline. Are you still opposed to that
pipeline?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, yes, I did go to stand with the Water
Protectors during that several years back. The reason I did
that is because I agreed with the tribe that they felt they
weren't consulted in the best way. I know that tribal
consultation is important and that was the reason that I was
there.
Senator Hoeven. What is your position on the pipeline
today?
Ms. Haaland. Well, Senator, I know it's an important issue
for you and I understand that. I also agree that whenever these
projects come up that we absolutely should make sure that we
are consulting with tribes if, in fact, these projects do
affect their lands, their sacred sites and the like. So----
Senator Hoeven. I understand. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Did
you--go ahead and finish. I did not mean to interrupt.
Ms. Haaland. No, sir. I mean, I am happy to get briefed on
any of these issues if I'm confirmed and, of course, Senator, I
would listen to you and consult with you and work with you to
the best of my ability.
Senator Hoeven. Well, I certainly understand the importance
of tribal consultation and that has been going on extensively
and it continues. Right now, the Corps of Engineers is
conducting an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) pursuant to
ongoing litigation. As I say, this pipeline has been operating
for three years safely now, moving more than half a million
barrels of oil a day. But the Corps is going through an EIS
process to comply with a court order. Do you agree that it is
important for the Army Corps to complete its review in a fact-
based, objective manner and to do so promptly? Do you agree
with that?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you for the question and yes,
thank you also for raising the issue that it is the Army Corps
of Engineers' authority. Where any of these issues come into
the authority of the Department of the Interior, if I'm
confirmed, I will absolutely give those things my attention.
Senator Hoeven. But your answer is yes, the Corps should
complete its--go through the proper process and complete its
EIS. That is your position?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I think everyone should follow the
law and if that's the law, then absolutely.
Senator Hoeven. Given your history, being at the protest,
are you willing to commit to recuse yourself from the matters
that come before Interior related to the Dakota Access Pipeline
in order to avoid any conflict of interest?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it's my understanding that there are
attorneys at the Department of the Interior and also ethics
folks. If I am confirmed, of course, I will heed the advice of
those attorneys and the Ethics Office for any issues where
there might be any of those conflicts.
Senator Hoeven. All right. Again, thank you for visiting
with me earlier and for your time today.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you also for working with us on
the House side to get some important legislation passed.
Senator Hoeven. And I know I am just a little bit over, but
I would also mention to you that the Three Affiliated Tribes of
North Dakota produces, just on their reservation alone, if they
were a state all by themselves, they would be about the ninth
or tenth largest oil-producing state in the nation. And so they
produce an incredible amount of energy for this nation, which
brings incredible benefit to the Three Affiliated Tribes--
Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara--and their oil goes through that
pipeline. Do you have any thoughts on that? Incredibly
important for that tribe.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it's my understanding that, with
respect to the leases that we've been talking about, the pause
on the leases does not affect tribal lands, just----
Senator Hoeven. Right, but I am talking about the ability
to access the Dakota Access Pipeline. That is how they move
their product from its location.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you so much, Senator. And I look forward
to absolutely working on these issues, if I'm confirmed, and
bringing you into the conversation as much as possible.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Before I go to Senator Cortez Masto, we are going to have
two votes here at 11:30, and what we are going to do is try to
get through our first round. We are going to come back tomorrow
at 10:00 for our second round.
Congresswoman, would that be okay with you? Can you come
back at 10:00 tomorrow?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I will do whatever you tell me to do.
The Chairman. Well, I am respectfully asking if you could
be here, that it would be much appreciated, at 10:00. That will
be our second round. So everyone can hold on that, if you will.
With that, we will try to conclude our first round. We have
about three or four more Senators.
Senator Hyde-Smith.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and welcome,
Congresswoman Haaland, and congratulations on this historic
nomination to be Secretary of Interior, and I am hopeful that
through this confirmation process we can gain a deeper
understanding on how you intend to lead the Department of the
Interior if you are confirmed.
And as a Congresswoman--and I think you came in in 2019--
you have been there two years, a little over two years?
Ms. Haaland. I was elected in 2018 and sworn in in 2019.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Since you have been in that position,
you have gone on record stating, ``I pledge to vote against all
new fossil fuel infrastructure and to fight instead for 100
percent clean energy.''
And ``Mississippi,'' of course, is on the outside of my
door that says, ``Senator Hyde-Smith.'' It has ``Mississippi''
under there--the state that I represent alone has a substantial
energy infrastructure which provides thousands of jobs and
hundreds of millions in economic output through the production
of fossil fuels in our ports, our refineries, our processing
plants, and many facilities in the great state that I
represent. But by halting this production of essential fossil
fuels, Mississippi jobs alone would be just decimated, leaving
families without a source of income during an already troubling
time economically, and halting offshore energy production would
also deny my state resources that are now dedicated to
conservation and other very good works. Frankly, your positions
on energy are alarming to Mississippians.
What do you recommend I tell my constituents that are
directly affected by this to assure them that their livelihoods
and the way they make a living and provide for their families
are still secure?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much for the question
and first of all, it might bear repeating that I was the most
bipartisan freshman in my first term in Congress. That's
because I came here to get work done. And I realize that
serving as a Cabinet Secretary is far different from being a
Member of Congress, where I'm representing one district, it's
representing every single American. And I recognize that there
is a difference in those two roles and I want you to know that
Cabinet Secretaries, the Administration is a co-equal branch of
our government, just as Congress is. And so it's important that
we're able to work together. And I can just promise you that I
will listen to you. I will take into consideration your issues
and how you want to present them and certainly will look
forward to many more conversations about your state and how we
can ensure the people of your state have what they need to move
forward.
Senator Hyde-Smith. So you don't have any specifics on what
I can report back to them of how their livelihoods are still
secure with your leadership?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I would just like to also reiterate,
perhaps, that President Biden has just put a pause on new
leases--not valid, existing leases and I don't know when that
review will be finished. It is a review the Administration
wants to do on the federal fossil fuel program. And of course,
I know that the valid, existing leases will move forward. There
are thousands of those currently and I believe the Department
is still moving permits through. So I feel like in the short-
term that, hopefully, their jobs have not been affected.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Okay. And for the future, you know, I
want to discuss the future of offshore oil and gas leasing in
the Gulf of Mexico. A 2020 analysis concluded that banning
federal leasing would result in nearly 14,000 Mississippi jobs
lost in a very small state. We are less than three million. In
the first 12 to 24 months, a decrease in offshore oil
production by 44 percent and natural gas by 68 percent by 2030
will increase dependency on imports by nearly two million
barrels per day and cause a potential loss of $32 million in
our state revenue. How do you foresee the future of offshore
leasing--when the Gulf of Mexico is vital to our nation's
energy security by providing approximately 20 percent of
America's oil and natural gas production--with your leadership
in the future if these things do come to pass?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, as I mentioned, of course, it's just
a pause. It's not a ban. It's my understanding that there are
approximately 7,700 unused, approved permits to drill currently
that have not been put into use. And so there is a long way to
go before, you know, in order to make use of all the permits
that are actually out there and ready to be used.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you.
And I have further questions at the appropriate time, Mr.
Chair.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And Senator Cortez Masto, from Nevada, I think she is with
us now.
Senator Cortez Masto. I am.
Chairman, thank you, and thank you to the Ranking Member.
Congresswoman Haaland, thank you for being here today, for your
dedication to public service, and for your family's long
history of military service to our nation.
I also recognize, as a member of the Senate Indian Affairs
Committee, the historic nature of your nomination as the first
Native American woman nominated by the President to lead the
Department of the Interior. I want to thank you for taking the
time with me prior to this hearing to go through some issues
and talk about how we can collaboratively work together for the
State of Nevada. As you and I previously discussed, over 80
percent of the land in Nevada is managed by the Federal
Government, and about 63 percent is specifically managed by the
Bureau of Land Management. So public lands are vital to my
state's economy, whether that be for mining, grazing, outdoor
recreation, and other uses. It is so important that we have a
good working relationship with the Department of the Interior
and the Federal Government.
As you and I discussed, there is so much land that the BLM
owns, particularly small parcels throughout the State of Nevada
in many of our communities and metropolitan areas, and that is
why, over the years, Nevada has made a point of looking at how
we can improve our working relationship at the federal level.
So having greater interagency and intergovernmental
collaboration on permitting compliance is important. Having the
BLM prioritize numerous pending realty applications and
recreation public purpose leases is important to us. Making
sure that there is greater alignment between BLM and state and
local governments on renewable energy and transmission siting,
and prioritizing the distribution of funds from the Southern
Nevada Public Land Management Act special account for regional
conservation and environmental enhancement projects, are
important to Nevada.
So, Congresswoman, can I have your commitment that you and
your staff will prioritize efficient land management and
greater collaboration with the State of Nevada?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you.
Let me touch on something that I know some of my colleagues
were talking about, but I want to put this in perspective.
There is a lot of speculative oil and gas leasing on federal
lands, and that is a concern of mine. In recent years, the BLM
has spent an inordinate amount of time and resources offering
vast acreages for oil and gas development on lands where the
oil and gas industry does not really have any development
interests, and on lands that have little to no potential for
development. Making these lands available for leasing only
fuels the speculation industry, and it really wastes BLM
resources while locking up the land from being managed for
purposes like wildlife habitat preservation, outdoor
recreation, and grazing. I introduced the End Speculative Oil
and Gas Leasing Act. I would ask you to commit to reviewing my
bill and considering the value of implementing this policy.
Will you be willing to do so?
Ms. Haaland. I'd be happy to review your bill. Of course,
I'll have to read it first. I would love to work with you in
any capacity on issues you think are important and I'll look
forward to getting to know that more.
Senator Cortez Masto. Wonderful, thank you.
In addition to all that we have discussed, and more, I have
worked very hard with my colleagues in Nevada--impacted
communities, and industries--on alternative proposals to the
Defense Department's modernization proposals for the Nellis and
Fallon training ranges in my state. In both instances, the Air
Force and Navy have sought to expand their operations, which
have substantive impacts on lands managed by the Interior
Department, including wildlife refuges, popular recreational
areas, family farms and ranches, and important tribal and
cultural resources. The Department of the Interior must be
actively engaged in these discussions and finding reasonable,
workable, and collaborative solutions. If confirmed, will you
commit that the Department of the Interior will seek to work
with all of the stakeholders to find such solutions?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, thank you. We will always work to strike
the right balance and I appreciate you caring about this issue,
Senator.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
One final commitment I need from you. In the Fiscal Year
2021 NDAA, I included an amendment creating intergovernmental
executive committees between the military and the Interior
Department to allow local, state, and tribal governments a
public forum to collaborate with the military in providing
advice and exchanging information on the management of natural
and local resources on federal lands in Nevada that are
currently used for military purposes. Will you commit to
expeditiously establishing these committees?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I love collaboration. I think that's
a way we can make sure that things are moving forward and I
appreciate you caring so much about that and I look forward to
working with you on it.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you again for your
willingness to serve.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. We have two more
Senators, then we will adjourn. We have Senator Marshall at
this time, then we will have Senator Hickenlooper finishing up,
and then we will come back tomorrow at 10:00. But we will
adjourn today after these two. Thank you.
Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and welcome
Congresswoman Haaland and congratulations on your nomination.
Thank you to the Chairman and the Ranking Member for giving me
the opportunity. This is a dream come true for a little kid
from Kansas to be on this particular committee.
You know, I think about growing up, and why I am on this
Committee is, I want to leave it better than we found it. As a
Boy Scout, that is what we were taught. And just looking
forward to the days ahead of us that I can share with my
grandchildren, the national parks that I have visited and
continuing this fishing and hunting across this great country.
How we can continue to improve our environment but also have
affordable energy, you know, where is that compromise to get
both of those? That those are our goals and that the
supportable energy is very important to the prosperity in my
grandchildren's future, just like it is the opportunity to
visit these national parks. And, of course, you know, finally,
I think about energy and national security and how important
those two issues are and where they are combining and the
importance to my children and grandchildren, why this Committee
is so important. And your nomination is so important to me.
I had the pleasure of serving on the Science, Space, and
Technology Committee in the House and one thing we were taught
was that this country is at a 25-year low for carbon
production--25-year low, incredible--that our carbon production
is down 14 percent over the last decade. How would you explain
that? How has this country gotten to this decreased carbon
production through your eyes? What has been the success?
Ms. Haaland. Well, we heard Senator Lankford talk about
Oklahoma having more renewable energy than they essentially get
credit for and I think that a lot of states, individually, have
worked hard. We have an Energy Transition Act in New Mexico
that was passed by our state legislature. And I think
everybody's working on the issue. I think climate change is
something that folks are realizing, you know, it's an all-
hands-on-deck effort. And so I really appreciate your optimism,
Senator, thank you.
Senator Marshall. You bet. And I would just throw out that
I think American innovation has had a lot to do with it.
Ms. Haaland. Absolutely.
Senator Marshall. Coal plants, burning plants are 99
percent cleaner than when I was growing up. The oil processing,
our refineries. I grew up with two oil refineries surrounding
my city and just the air and the waters of Kansas are cleaner
today than when I was growing up.
I wanted to turn and just briefly talk about prescribed
burning and invasive species--prescribed burning and grazing.
Invasive species that I have dealt with commonly on my own land
would be the salt cedar and red cedar. And generally, do you
feel in favor of not using prescribed burns and grazing
opportunities to control invasive species?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I'm glad you mentioned invasive
species. It's happened on Laguna with the salt cedar. It just
took over immediately and there was an effort to try to
eradicate the salt cedar on the banks of the Rio San Jose. So I
understand how fast those things grow and I look forward to
working with you to find ways to remedy those situations.
Senator Marshall. Okay.
Gosh, you know, this five minutes goes by really quickly
here, but lastly, I just want to talk about national parks for
a second. One of my wife's bucket lists is to go to every
national park in the country, and in our bedroom, she has a
little plaque, and each one of those she has checked off. Two
years ago, we got to go to the Badlands and to Mount Rushmore.
And when I think of national parks, I think about the Fourth of
July, my favorite holiday of the year, and just seeing Mount
Rushmore in all its grandeur was something I will never forget.
Governor Noem reached out to me last night and she and her
delegation want to invite you and President Biden back to Mount
Rushmore for a Fourth of July celebration. I hope you all can
continue that tradition. I think it is great for America to
celebrate our independence and what a great place to do that.
And again, when I think about national parks, I think about
Teddy Roosevelt, perhaps America's greatest conservationist.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
If the pandemic is over and we're able to travel, I've
never been to Mount Rushmore and so, I appreciate that. I would
also suggest that your wife get a national park passport.
Senator Marshall. Oh, we have them. We have them.
Ms. Haaland. You've got that too.
Senator Marshall. Oh, you bet you, we do.
Ms. Haaland. You can put the stamps in.
Senator Marshall. It is one of the best deals in America to
buy a yearlong passport and go to all of these national parks.
It is an incredible country we live in.
Thank you and I yield back.
The Chairman. Thanks, Senator.
And finally, Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Chair. Secretary designee
Haaland, it is very nice to see you again, and I appreciate you
taking the time with the Committee today. Like New Mexico,
Colorado has a very strong conservation community and a
vigorous outdoor recreation community. One of the things I am
very interested in is a bill I co-sponsored with Senator
Bennet, the Colorado Outdoor Recreation and Economy Act, CORE,
which would protect over 400,000 acres of public lands in
Colorado, including new designations for Forest Service land.
The bill enjoys broad bipartisan support of local elected
officials, business owners, recreationalists, and
conservationists. I think communities across our state have
been working for ten years on this bill as a historic effort to
protect public lands. The CORE Act is key to helping ensure
that Coloradans inherit both a thriving outdoor recreation
economy and pristine outdoor spaces, as you already have been
discussing this morning.
I know you are as committed to outdoor recreation on public
lands as I am. I was impressed that you have been to so many of
the public lands and are such an active outdoor recreationist.
In regards to the CORE Act, the previous Administration opposed
the bill last Congress based on testimony that misrepresented
the facts on the ground in Colorado. While they said it would
reduce areas open to motorized recreation, the bill, in fact,
does not close any existing roads, Jeep trails, off-highway
vehicle trails, or motorcycle trails. I would ask that you
commit to doing a full review of the agency's stance on the
CORE Act to ensure that it reflects an informed and accurate
understanding of the facts in Colorado.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I was a conferee on the NDAA last
year and I was disappointed that the CORE Act wasn't included
after all. I know I can speak for myself, but I also know that
President Biden supports a strong outdoor economy for our
entire country, and I understand that the Administration also
endorses the bill. So, yes.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great. Well, thank you.
Also like New Mexico, Colorado has, in addition to that
conservation community and outdoor recreation community, an
important oil and gas industry. The Executive Order stated that
existing operations would not be impacted by the delegation of
authority, and yet many ancillary aspects, from sundry permits,
rights-of-way over BLM land, which are essential to those
existing operations, would require approval from a small number
of individuals, which sometimes can create time delays and new
risks. I have heard concerns from tribal groups and from
operators that, despite promises that the moratorium will not
impact existing leases, the constrained permitting process for
the existing leases might become permanent.
So I was hoping that you would be willing to work with us
to provide some certainty around those existing rights-of-way
and existing permits, that they will not be negatively
impacted.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I'll be very happy to work with you.
As I've mentioned before, the Congress is a co-equal branch of
government. I think if we work together, we can get a lot
accomplished.
Senator Hickenlooper. Perfect, I appreciate that.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Hickenlooper. As you and I previously discussed, I
strongly support keeping the BLM Headquarters in Grand
Junction. I know it is somewhat controversial. I have had
conversations with a number of my Senate colleagues,
particularly those representing states with substantial BLM
lands, and I have seen broad, bipartisan support for a
headquarters office to remain in the West. I think we should
absolutely avoid the mistakes of the last Administration, but I
think uprooting those 21 employees in Grand Junction and moving
them again would be disruptive, and likely result in the loss
of even more BLM employees. I do not think the last
Administration managed the move properly. It was perceived as
an attack on the BLM in trying to reduce its capabilities. I
think we have not been able to realize the full potential of
what more of those jobs could achieve, especially if they were
dispersed across the West and were committed to protecting our
public lands, and looking at things like outdoor recreation and
all the uses on BLM lands.
I hope there is a path forward where we can find a solution
that restores a fully functioning agency, while allowing the
BLM staff to work close to the lands they manage. As you
consider this important issue, I am hoping you will commit to
keeping an open dialogue and working with us western Senators.
Ms. Haaland. I'll absolutely keep an open dialogue and if
you're inviting me to Colorado, I gracefully accept.
[Laughter.]
Senator Hickenlooper. That was my next question. We would
love to get you out to Grand Junction and let you see the BLM
land out there, but also see the new headquarters and what it
looks like.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. I'll look forward to
consulting more on this issue with you and I understand that we
absolutely need to make sure that the staff members are, you
know, that we have a full team there at BLM. And you probably
know this already, 90 percent of Interior employees are
actually outside of DC. So they're all over the place.
[Laughter.]
Senator Hickenlooper. And we applaud that. We applaud that.
Thank you so much.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
The Committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning
at 10:00 a.m., in the same room that we are in today.
[Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m. the Committee recessed, to
reconvene at 10:00 a.m., Wednesday, February 24, 2021.]
[Additional material submitted for the record for Day 1
follows Day 2 of the hearing.]
HAALAND NOMINATION
DAY 2
----------
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:07 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joe Manchin
III, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The Committee will come to order.
We are going to resume consideration of the nomination of
Representative Debra Haaland to be the Secretary of the
Interior. We had a very good hearing yesterday until we had to
recess for votes, and all but two of our members had a chance
to ask one round of questions before the recess. In addition, a
number of members asked for a second round of questions, and
Congresswoman Haaland graciously agreed to return and answer
questions today, and we appreciate that very much.
We appreciate your courtesy in accommodating us, and we are
going to pick up where we left off yesterday by recognizing
Senator Kelly, and we will follow up with Senator Risch before
we start our second round of questioning.
Senator Kelly.
Senator Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
echo your comments from yesterday about the historic nature of
Congresswoman Haaland's nomination. There has never been a
Native American at the helm of the Department of the Interior
before, so I ask unanimous consent to add to the record several
letters of support from Arizona tribal governments, endorsing
Congresswoman Haaland's nomination.
The Chairman. Without objection.
Senator Kelly. Thank you.
[Letters of support for Ms. Haaland's nomination follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Kelly. Congresswoman, I would like to ask you about
drought in the Colorado River. As you know, the Secretary of
the Interior is called the watermaster of the Lower Colorado
River. If confirmed, you would have extraordinary authority,
through the Bureau of Reclamation, to curtail water deliveries
from Lake Mead to Arizona, to California, and to Nevada during
years of severe drought. The President has not yet nominated a
Commissioner for the Bureau of Reclamation, but what are your
thoughts on increasing resources from DOI to expand reservoir
capacity, water recycling, and groundwater management in
Colorado River states?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much for the question.
And living in the Southwest, I realize and understand how
important water is and sometimes how little there is of it. We
know that water is the lifeblood of the West and the Southwest
and I know that we're experiencing severe droughts currently.
So it's important for us to pay attention to this issue. It's
important for us to conserve, to think about ways we can
conserve water. Water recycling is a great way to do that.
I know that it's best if we seek consensus, you know,
consensus-based solutions to these issues. I have said many
times yesterday that I will absolutely consult with you and
with all the members of this Committee. It's important.
Congress is a co-equal branch of government. So I think if we
work together, of course, we can find ways to find solutions to
some of these issues and yes, I understand how important water
is to Arizona.
Senator Kelly. Native American water settlements are also a
significant issue for Arizona tribal communities. Would you be
willing to prioritize the completion and full funding of
existing and future Indian water settlements?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I know that that's also extremely
important, and I look so forward to working with you on these
issues, but I know there are several water settlements
currently in New Mexico as well. It would be nice to get those
done.
Senator Kelly. You know, the Grand Canyon is a very special
place for our entire nation, not just Arizona. Yesterday,
Senator Sinema and I introduced legislation to permanently ban
uranium mining on federal land outside of the boundary of the
Grand Canyon--outside of Grand Canyon National Park. I know you
are familiar with this issue. Can we count on your support for
a permanent ban on uranium mining?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I look forward, again, to discussing
this issue with you. I realize that there are people who live
nearby there and it would be important for us, with any mining,
to make sure that it doesn't harm people, that health and
safety are top priorities and that the sacredness of the Grand
Canyon and other historical places are protected.
Senator Kelly. The Havasupai Tribe relies on water that
could be potentially contaminated by uranium mining if that was
allowed around the Grand Canyon. So thank you.
I yield back the remainder of my time.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
And now we have Senator Risch.
Senator Risch. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
Ms. Haaland, good morning. Did you or do you now support
the Biden action and the Administration's action of shutting
down the Keystone Pipeline on his first day in office?
Ms. Haaland. Excuse me, Senator. Thank you for the
question.
I feel very confident that the President, his decision, I
mean, I have to respect it, sir. He is the President of the
United States and I realize that these are some of the things
that he talked about when he was running for office and I
believe that those are some of the reasons why he was elected.
I know that President Biden cares deeply about our environment.
He also cares about jobs, though. And so I know his Build Back
Better plan is going to work, if we can all work together to
create millions of jobs and I look forward to helping him move
his plan forward.
Senator Risch. Do you support his decision to shut down the
Keystone Pipeline? That is a simple yes or no. I got a
filibuster, but I would like a yes or no.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. I will tend to support
President Biden's positions and if I am confirmed as Secretary,
it is his agenda that I would seek to move forward.
Senator Risch. Do you support closing down the Keystone
Pipeline?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I will just say that I support
President Biden's agenda.
Senator Risch. Do you support shutting down the Keystone
Pipeline?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, if I say that I support President
Biden's agenda, I assume that you could take my answer as a
yes.
Senator Risch. Thank you.
And could you tell me why that is?
Ms. Haaland. Well, one of the reasons why is that I support
President Biden. I think he's thought deeply about these things
and I think that he cares deeply about our environment and I do
as well.
Senator Risch. And you told me that you did support his
shutting down the Keystone Pipeline, but I am looking for your
reasons why you think that is a good idea.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I'm not sure that I have a full
answer for you other than to say that I know that there are a
lot of people in this country who care deeply about our
environment and that is one area that folks have been
passionate about. I know there's a lot of passion on both sides
of the issue.
Senator Risch. Yes, there sure is, particularly people who
have lost their jobs as a result of that and are losing good
high-paying jobs for that. One of the reasons I am pressing you
on this is I am having real trouble reconciling that with the
fact that we cannot get the Administration to move to shut down
the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline. The last Administration, we pushed
and pushed and they did get it shut down, but now the Russians
have found other ways around it. They are trying to complete
it. Congress, on a bipartisan basis, has passed legislation to
urge the Administration to use the sanctions that we said were
required and shut down the Nord Stream 2 construction and yet
the Administration will not do that.
How do you square shutting down jobs in the energy sector
in the United States, but yet, permitting and indeed
encouraging jobs in the energy sector in Russia? It doesn't
make sense to me.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it's my understanding that there's
only a pause on the new leases--the new gas and oil leases
currently. The existing valid leases are moving forward.
Permitting is moving forward. I understand that. I know that
the Department currently is moving those permits forward. I
don't know all the particulars of every permit that's been
signed, but I know that President Biden isn't looking to shut
everything down. The existing permits and leases will continue.
Senator Risch. Yes, but no new ones.
Ms. Haaland. There is a pause on the new ones, sir.
Senator Risch. For how long?
Ms. Haaland. I couldn't tell you that. As soon as the
review is done of the fossil fuel program in the Federal
Government, it looks like the pause will be lifted.
Senator Risch. Well----
Ms. Haaland. But I don't have particularly any specificity
on that.
Senator Risch. Well back to the issue on the Russian
Pipeline. It would seem to me that the Administration could
spend a good amount of its energy on stopping those jobs in
Russia, which is a national security issue for us. And yet
instead they are using their energy to do this to American
workers, which just doesn't seem logical sitting here looking
at it as it is. Well, if I might have just a couple more
minutes?
Ms. Haaland, as I look around the Committee here, mostly
western states here--all have large tracts of public lands, as
I am sure you do in your state also. And I cannot tell you how
important those are to us. Over the years, we have gone through
constant wrestling with the Federal Government on the use of
those lands. In Idaho, we have been successful in doing
collaboration on the ground. We have a national--we have a
roadless rule in Idaho which was put together by us, by
Idahoans, on a bipartisan basis. Other than Colorado, we are
the only one in the United States. Again, we have had the
United States Government pushing on us, trying to get around
that after time has moved on and we are holding on to it.
But I hope that you will, when you are confirmed, work with
us on a local basis, on the ground, instead of sending us
directives from DC. It is a real problem for those of us that
have these large tracts of public lands.
Thank you very much. My time is up. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Congresswoman Haaland, yesterday you committed to Senator
King to review the Methane Waste Prevention Rule. The majority
of that rule was nullified by a district court judge last
summer, and the fact of the matter is, there is just far too
much methane that is being emitted. We all know that. In 2019,
oil and gas operations onshore, on federal lands, vented or
flared almost 75 billion cubic feet of methane. That was an 83
percent increase from 2015 levels. This is especially troubling
because venting and flaring of methane can be prevented. We
know that. That does not happen on private lands.
So I started asking questions. Why are we wasting this
product? Why would any company, in good conscience, let that
much value go up in the air when they could be selling it and
putting it in the product line? Their problem was this: we
cannot get permits to put in the pipelines to take the methane
off property. The only thing I am saying is, if we have this
resource, we are using this resource. We are going to need an
ability to have a permitting process that is going to allow us
to take the methane off, rather than polluting it, because they
have legal leases they are working on.
So the only thing I would ask you is, will you work with us
on finding a pathway forward to make this a reality and not
vent 75 billion cubic feet of methane?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I would be happy to work with you on
this issue. I know that millions of dollars go up every year
that could be spent on our public schools. Certainly in New
Mexico, that's been the case. We do need to reduce the methane
pollution and, of course, that can create jobs, absolutely, and
also care for our climate.
So I appreciate that. I think benefiting the taxpayers is
always a good idea and I would be happy to help find solutions
to that issue.
The Chairman. Well, the main thing is the permitting
process. We are going to need help on them, and I am going to
ask you to work with us on that, to make sure that we can get
this and not vent it or flare it. I think it would be
tremendous for the environment, tremendously helpful.
I want to get facts on the record to make sure that we are
working from the same page. It is my understanding that the oil
and gas industry continues to hold 26 million acres under lease
onshore and 12 million acres offshore. Nearly 53 percent of
those acres onshore and over 77 percent of those offshore are
unused and non-producing. So they have the leases in hand. They
just have never produced them. I have defended President Biden
saying he wants to take a pause. I think we need to look at
this inventory and find out what their intentions are for the
leases they are holding. Approximately 7,700 oil and gas
permits are approved, but currently unused. With these APDs in
hand, companies have obtained the necessary authorizations they
need to begin operations of their choosing. We have not shut
anybody down. We are not stopping anybody. I want people to
know that.
It is also my understanding that the executive action taken
by the President put the pause on gas and oil leases to allow
the new Administration to review the leasing program, which I
have asked for also. I want to know the determination of what
the terms of these leases are, how much they are paying for
these leases, and why they are holding so many with non-
productive status. I believe it is prudent to conduct a review
of this leasing process, and I want to work with you.
So my question would be, will any company with existing
leases, as you understand, still be able to apply for the
permits, or begin operations based on the existing permits they
have, the APDs, on those existing leases, including those that
are currently non-producing? So if I have 2,000 leases, and I
am only producing 1,000 of them, could I move to my next leases
without running into interference on that from the government
agency or the Department of the Interior?
Ms. Haaland. Chairman, thank you so much for the question.
It is my--and now I'm not at the Department yet, so I don't
know every single issue--however, it's my understanding that
yes, permits are still moving through. I know that each permit
might require something different with respect to how they're
reviewing it, but it is my understanding that they are moving
those through and I agree with you that a review is a good idea
and----
The Chairman. Well, we are going to bring the companies in
and find out if there is going to be a reach back to where they
are putting additional regulations in place, and companies will
not be able to use the leases they have already obtained
legally after going through the permitting process. We want to
make sure there is a fairness to it. And if we have better ways
to improve our environment in doing that, such as pipelines
taking methane off, no methane flaring, and things of this
sort, but give them some kind of a reprieve, then there is a
possible way of doing everything that we need to do and make it
much healthier for the environment and our climate.
So, with that, my time has expired, and I will go to
Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Representative, yesterday when discussing the effects that
President Biden's ban on oil and gas leasing have had on
workers, you stated, you said, ``I feel like in the short-term,
hopefully, their jobs have not been affected.'' You just made
that statement yesterday. Their jobs are being affected now. I
have a letter from the Northern Arapaho Business Council in
Wyoming--I don't know if you are familiar with the members of
the Northern Arapaho Tribe in Wyoming--and they are opposing
the President's ban on leasing. The Northern Arapaho Business
Council letter states, ``Delays in leasing have already,''
already, ``negatively impacted small to mid-sized operators.
The longer the orders remain in place the more revenue will
decline and result in additional blows to our economy, the oil
and gas workforce, and to Wyoming's education system.''
So, Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter this
letter into the record of the hearing today. Thank you.
[Letter from the Northern Arapaho Business Council
follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. Next, I would ask that my chart be put up
on the screen so you have a chance to see it. I also have a
copy of it behind me.
[The chart displayed follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Barrasso. You have stated that you are
``wholeheartedly against fracking and drilling on public
lands.'' You have said that ``we need to keep fossil fuels in
the ground.'' You have also stated that you oppose all fossil
fuel infrastructure. If confirmed, President Biden is likely to
ask you, specifically, whether he should extend the ban on oil
and gas and coal leasing on federal lands and waters. Now, you
have said repeatedly that President Biden's agenda is your
agenda. But what this Committee wants to know is how you will
advise him. How will you act, because you are the principal
role of Secretary of the Interior, so how will you advise him
and will you encourage the President to extend the 60-day ban
on leasing or not?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Ranking Member, I appreciate the
question.
And yes, I will reiterate again, President Biden's agenda
would be my agenda, if I am confirmed. I recognize that roles
are different. The role of a Congresswoman in one district in
the country is much different than the role of a Secretary, who
is fighting and working for every single American and all of
our public lands across the country. Those are two different
things. I recognize that. I want to make sure that, if I'm
confirmed, that we're looking at things and working to strike
the right balance. We need to care as much about the
environment as we do about the fossil fuel infrastructure in
your state, in other states. We need to balance those
priorities. And I feel that yes, sometimes it might seem like a
tricky sort of balancing act, but I think, I feel very strongly
that if we have a mind to protect our public lands for future
generations, that we'll also be able to protect jobs for future
generations as well.
I am very much excited about the opportunities that lie
ahead and Chairman Manchin and I have spoken about this, the
technology opportunities, the innovative opportunities for
workers across this country. And I think there are a lot of
workers who want to have jobs of the future. And so, what I
would like to do is just make sure that I am doing everything I
can to help President Biden in his Build Back Better plan to
create millions of jobs across the country.
Senator Barrasso. Well, let's talk about those workers and
their jobs for the future because in 2018 you campaigned on
eliminating oil and gas production in New Mexico and you were
specifically asked how you would make up for the loss of oil
and gas royalties, which the state uses to fund public schools,
and your answer was, you would vote to legalize cannabis. That
was your answer. And that you said if we legalize cannabis and
we have a new funding stream for our education system, that
will help tremendously. That was your statement. Do you still
believe that states should replace oil and gas royalties used
for public education with taxes on the sale of marijuana? Is
that your position?
Ms. Haaland. Well, I think the point of that, Ranking
Member, was to say that we should diversify our funding streams
for education and not just rely on one.
Senator Barrasso. So is selling marijuana among what the
Biden Administration calls better choices that the Biden
Administration has promised to give displaced oil and gas
workers? Is that the better choice, marijuana?
Ms. Haaland. Ranking Member, I honestly don't know what
President Biden's stance is on cannabis, currently.
Senator Barrasso. But we know what your stance is on
replacing the revenue from the energy jobs, the jobs that power
our economy and the energy that powers our country, and your
preference is to turn to drugs--is what you have recommended to
the voters. At a time when we know when there is high
unemployment and energy workers lose their jobs, we have seen
it in West Virginia, we have seen it around the country. There
has been an opioid crisis in this nation. And yet, what I hear
from you is, the answer in a ``better-choice world'' is
marijuana.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Lee.
Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Representative Haaland, for being here with
us again today.
I wanted to pick up a little bit from where we left off
yesterday. We were talking about national monuments. I think it
is important for us to remember that, as I mentioned yesterday,
a disproportionate share of all national monuments that have
been designated on land in the United States over the last 25
years, about 28 percent, as I recall, have been designated in
Utah. In the past, we have had reforms made to the Antiquities
Act, at times when one state or another has been picked on,
relentlessly and disproportionately. One significant reform
occurred in 1950, when Congress reacted to a decision made a
few years earlier by President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he
proclaimed the Jackson Hole National Monument after Congress
had declined to expand the Grand Teton National Park. And he
undertook similar action by Presidential proclamation under the
Antiquities Act.
So Congress responded to that and basically exempted
Wyoming out of future national monument designations. He had
Congress responding again a few decades later in 1980 and
making significant Antiquities Act reforms specific to the
State of Alaska, which had found itself the victim of excessive
national monument designation. This had occurred after
President Jimmy Carter had proclaimed 15 new national
monuments, even after Congress had adjourned without passing a
major Alaska lands bill that was strongly opposed within the
state. And so there is something of a pattern of overreaction
by Presidential administrations to declare new monuments in a
manner contrary to the wishes of the host state. Congress
eventually reacts and responds.
We talked a little bit yesterday about the ping-pong
effect, the fact that one of the unfortunate things about this
is that there is a tug of war in which the status of the
Antiquities Act monument designations in these states can
easily become something of a ping-pong ball. It has not
occurred a lot in the past, but the trend has now begun where
you have seen one president designate a monument, another
president restricts that monument's size, and then you now see
a move by the Biden Administration to expand perhaps to--or
some have suggested even in excess of--the original boundaries
of the Bears Ears National Monument or the Grand Staircase-
Escalantes National Monument. There is, understandably, a good
reason for us to explore a legislative solution.
Could you understand, however, why some of us might be
concerned about legislatively designating one or more of these
national monuments without some type of protection for our
state, limiting for the future the amount of national monuments
that could be designated by Presidential proclamation or,
alternatively, could you understand why it would be difficult
for us to negotiate with that without some kind of actual deal,
some kind of protection and assurance that we will not end up
losing the whole negotiation anyway, as long as the President,
made through the stroke of the Presidential pen, can undo all
of our negotiations?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I completely understand. I understand
and I respect your position, and I can't fully understand
because I'm not you and Utah is not my state, but I do respect
your position. And I want you to know that I am, if I am
confirmed, I am ready to sit down and talk with you and the
stakeholders in Utah. I know that tribal nations--it's their
ancestral homeland in some respects. I would be honored to get
everyone together and talk about these issues. But I want you
to know that I fully, fully respect your position and I want to
perhaps work to find a solution. And I truly do understand what
you're saying and I appreciate your sharing that with me.
Senator Lee. So if you are confirmed, would you be willing
to come to my state, before any action is taken on the
Antiquities Act in my state, and meet with some groups of
people you might not otherwise hear from--meet with groups of
people who, I believe, have not been listened to as much in the
past?
Ms. Haaland. I absolutely would, Senator. I would never
pass up an opportunity to go to Utah.
Senator Lee. What do you think we can do about multiple
use? Multiple use was the objective of FLPMA. It was the
promise made. There are many occasions when management for
multiple use really ends up just being restricted use. This
often results in diminished economic activity on the part of
states and especially within rural communities within public
land states. What would you do to enhance multiple use and to
make sure it actually happens?
Ms. Haaland. Well, you've talked a lot, Senator Lee, about
folks on the ground, about local communities weighing in on
these things. And I know that multiple use is, yes, that is a
tenet of our public lands and in some places you can have more
multiple use, in other places you can't. So I look to strike
that balance. I think it will be important.
Senator Lee. And do you think that President Biden's
decision to issue a moratorium on oil and gas leasing is
consistent with principles of multiple use? And if so, how is
that consistent? And what will you do to make sure that people
have access to these things and also access to a critical
mineral supply chain?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator Lee.
The pause that President Biden has put on the new permits,
pending review--the review is not going to last forever. The
review will, as soon as it's done, of course, having that input
with everyone, we'll be able to move forward after that. I
think that this is just that--it's a pause. It's not going to
be a permanent thing where we're saying we're restricting all
these lands from something.
Senator Lee. I appreciate that it is not permanent. If it
is, in fact, not permanent, we would love to know how non-
permanent it is and roughly what the time horizon would look
like. This has very significant impact. It might seem like an
insignificant thing for someone who does not live there and
whose job does not depend on it or whose job does not depend on
someone else's job in that field. But for many of these
communities, it is their lifeblood. I mean, it is also
something upon which our national energy security often
depends.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you very much, Senator.
Senator Lee. Thank you.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
I want to profusely apologize. I skipped over our former
esteemed Chairwoman, who ran this Committee so efficiently.
Senator Cantwell.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chair, but I worked as
Ranking Member. But, Mr. Chairman, I so appreciated your
question on the methane rule, and I think people do not realize
that a recent study found that life cycle emissions from oil,
gas, and coal pulled from public lands and waters were
equivalent to 20 percent of the total U.S. greenhouse
emissions. So in perspective, that is like the fifth largest
source of emissions in the world. That is more carbon pollution
than is emitted by Japan, Brazil, and Germany. So that is what
you are going to be the steward over. I am appreciative of what
the President has done to try to get a handle on that. And just
so we are clear, we are seeing the impacts, obviously, with
wildfires, disasters, changes in weather, and all sorts of
things. So again, I think NOAA said that climate disasters are
$121 billion per year. These are big numbers, so I hope we get
a good picture on that, and certainly appreciate what the
Chairman said about the methane rule, because we do not need to
be wasting methane and we do not need to be emitting that
pollution.
Just to be clear on the marijuana issue. This is not a
Seattle issue. Out of 39 counties, 20 to 25 counties in the
State of Washington supported legalizing cannabis. And so, I do
not blame our legislature or others for getting revenue from
that and putting it toward public health issues in the State of
Washington. This is respecting the wishes of the voters, and
then putting it to good use.
I do want to go back to the questioning of yesterday,
because I talked about public lands as a great economic engine
for us as a nation, and I was a little frustrated at the end of
the last year. First of all, this Committee leadership,
Chairman Manchin, Senator Daines, Senator Wyden, Senator King,
myself, and others, led a big effort on the Great American
Outdoors Act with our colleagues, Senator Alexander and Senator
Gardner. We want to know that you are going to provide the
leadership and investment in the infrastructure upgrade that we
are looking for, for our national parks. In the Chairman's
case, the New River Gorge, I think it is one of--he knows that
I like to go to the Dolly Sods, but----
The Chairman. Not that far.
Senator Cantwell. The New River Gorge is one of the oldest
rivers in the United States. So upgrading that protection was
critical, and now we need to make investments there. Making
investments in Mount Rainier National Park is very important to
us, and Olympic National Park. We have a 50-year-old water
treatment system that needs to be upgraded. We have campgrounds
and walkways in Mount Rainier that need to be upgraded. I want
to make sure that under your leadership, you are going to make
sure that those dollars get spent as we have envisioned them,
and that you are going to make this a priority within the
agency.
Ms. Haaland. I absolutely will, Senator Cantwell, thank
you.
Senator Cantwell. On the other side of that equation, I am
very frustrated by what Secretary Bernhardt did on the way out
the door. I mean, talk about thwarting Congress. Congress, in a
bipartisan fashion, said we want permanent funding for the Land
and Water Conservation Fund, and then he tried to do some
damaging things to try to prevent us from doing that. So I want
to make sure that you will be seeking the full $900 million in
mandatory spending for LWCF.
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
On the issue of PILT--Payment in Lieu of Taxes--I do not
know New Mexico's numbers, but I am assuming you are familiar
with that issue. This is critical to many counties in my state,
and I think we have been thinking about ways that PILT might be
able to be expanded to states that also have national wildlife
refuges, that is to say, the outdoor recreation opportunities
that are supported there. Would you be willing to work with us
in looking at ways to expand PILT to help compensate states for
outdoor recreation opportunities and things that help increase
the security of our nation's wildlife refuges?
Ms. Haaland. Payments in Lieu of Taxes is extremely
important. I'm committed to making it stronger and, of course,
I'd be open to ideas on how to improve that.
Senator Cantwell. If we are looking at this plan and we are
trying to figure out how to help our public lands, USGS
estimated between 2005 and 2014, federal lands sequestered
approximately 15 percent of CO2 emissions that
resulted from extraction of fossil fuels on federal land. Is
there a way for us to look at other ways to continually
incentivize the sequestration efforts, whether that is through
our forests or other ideas? Should we be looking at that as
well?
Ms. Haaland. Absolutely.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Well, we will look forward to
following up on that.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Cantwell.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Chairman, if I just could--I am sorry, I know we are
out of time. I am out of time. I have 12 seconds. But, the
Congresswoman shared an important story with me prior to the
hearing. I do not know if she can recount it in a few minutes,
but there are people in Indian Country all over the United
States that are so proud of her nomination, and I do not even
know how we can explain adequately enough how much they are
tuning in and looking at this moment. They feel like they have
been good stewards of public land for centuries before us. And
so they are so excited about her nomination. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Haaland, welcome back.
Ms. Haaland. Good morning.
Senator Daines. I wanted to talk about the issue of
critical minerals as it relates to renewable energy. The
Democratic Republic of the Congo, which is known for abysmal
human rights and horrible environmental standards, produce the
vast majority of cobalt for the world which, of course, as you
know, is used for batteries in electric vehicles, renewable
energy. The U.S. is relying on China as well for dozens of
critical minerals and rare earth elements that are used in
renewable energy. Yet, they have a long track record of shady
environmental standards, labor standards, as well as extensive
human rights abuses. In order to produce the wind, the solar
and storage technology that we will need going forward, we will
need raw materials that must be mined and extracted from the
earth.
You have previously introduced legislation that would
increase costs and lengthen permitting for hardrock mining. My
question is how do you plan to source raw materials for
renewable energy if the policies you have supported are
actually moving mining operations overseas?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much for the question.
As I have said several times before, I recognize that the role
of Secretary, a Cabinet Secretary, is far different from that
of a Congresswoman. And so I recognize that it's--I'm not just
worried about my one district in New Mexico, but the entire
country. I agree that we need to mine responsibly. We also need
to be able to ensure that we have that independence into the
future. Senator, this Earth provides us with every single thing
we need and it has for millennia. And I feel very strongly that
if we take a lot of care to make sure that we are doing
everything we can, we can have those jobs well into the future.
Our grandchildren should be able to rely on what they get from
the earth as much as we do.
Senator Daines. I appreciate the comment that you have been
representing your constituents in the past and now you have a
position where you will represent all of our country. Some of
the prior positions you have taken--opposed to Keystone,
opposed Dakota Pipeline, protesting there, calling for bans on
trapping on all public lands, stopping energy on all public
lands--clearly impact more people than just your constituents.
So I am not convinced that you will be taking that view forward
because you have certainly been taking some very strong
positions that clearly impact folks outside the first district
of New Mexico.
I want to put up Chart 2 and talk about some hunting and
sportsmen's issues, if I could.
[The chart displayed follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Daines. On July 5, 2019, you called for a ban on
all public land trapping. About 6,000 Montanans are trappers,
including several in our tribal communities. If confirmed, will
you restrict or ban trapping on public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, if I'm confirmed, of course, I will
look at the science. I will consult with everyone who I need to
consult with. I don't intend to go in and start making rules
that, I mean, I think there are processes----
Senator Daines. So did you look at the science and the data
before you came out with a statement of being opposed to
trapping on all public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, at the time I made that statement, my
constituents were concerned about that issue and that is one
that I made accordingly.
Senator Daines. Yes, well, thank you for that. And I will
tell you my constituents back home also have concerns with
statements like that. It has been a heritage in our state, as
well as across many of our tribal communities, of allowing
trapping on our public lands. It is also an important
conservation tool because modern trapping practices allow you
to trap an animal and release it safely for the sake of
collaring and so forth.
Put up Chart 1, if you would, please.
[The chart displayed follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Daines. Semi-automatic rifles are certainly a
popular choice for hunting, for shooting, target practice, all
of which are a part of our western heritage. On September 23,
2020, you called for a ban on some semi-automatic rifles. Given
your call to ban some sporting rifles, why should Congress
believe that you will work to protect and expand shooting and
hunting opportunities on our public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
Well, I am a Pueblo woman, as I mentioned yesterday. We
have been hunting wild game for centuries. In fact, that's the
reason I am sitting here today, is because my ancestors
sustained themselves through those practices. As a child, many,
many times, my dad, my grandparents, my brother, they all hunt
and, in fact, I was fortunate to harvest an oryx from the White
Sands Missile Range several years back. It fed my family for
about a year. I understand that and I absolutely respect the
sportsmen and the anglers whose traditions those are.
Senator Daines. Regarding anglers, in 2020, you voted to
allow a future administration to regulate ammo or fishing
tackle, much like the Obama Administration did when they banned
lead ammo and tackle on public lands. Do you support a ban on
lead ammo and tackle on public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you so much, Senator.
I look forward to looking into that issue, consulting with
the experts. I know there are a number of scientists at the
Department of the Interior. If I'm confirmed, that will
absolutely be a conversation that we have.
Senator Daines. And I do hope you will respect the science.
I know there were some unfortunate comments made yesterday
about Republicans not believing in science and I respectfully
would disagree. I am a chemical engineer. We have some
physicians on this Committee as well on the Republican side of
the aisle. And I hope you will think about retracting that
unfortunate comment that was made yesterday.
If you will put up Chart 3.
[The chart displayed follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Daines. On May 10, 2019, you co-sponsored
legislation designating seven million acres of wilderness in
Montana without getting any local input or even visiting these
areas. During our meeting, when I asked you if the 30 by 30
initiative incorporated public land grazing and sportsmen's
access, you responded, ``wilderness designations still provide
access to hunting.'' And that is entirely accurate, I agree
with you on that. But you did not speak about the issue of
grazing, which I know is a big issue for our ranchers across
Montana.
Wilderness designations can, in fact, hinder sportsmens'
access and create challenges for authorized grazing.
Additionally, wilderness designations preclude new grazing
authorization, even when grazing is an effective conservation
tool. Can you tell me if you believe that grazing qualifies as
a part of conservation?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I know how important grazing is. My
sister, as I mentioned yesterday, she has a ranching family,
and they rely on grazing their cattle in order to feed their
families. I understand how important that is. Senator, I would
be more than happy to, if I'm confirmed, to absolutely speak
with the experts, talk with you, speak with stakeholders to
look at this issue and to understand it more fully. I am not at
the Department as of yet, but I can guarantee you that I'd be
happy to look into that issue.
Senator Daines. You are the author of the 30 by 30
initiative in the House. As the primary leader there, this
initiative has been extremely sparse on details. Does this
initiative pertain to just public land or all U.S. lands?
The Chairman. Senator, if we could kind of move it along.
Senator Daines. Okay, right. Thanks.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, the 30 by 30 initiative that
President Biden has embraced will be an opportunity for so many
Americans to participate in conserving that amount of land and
water. It's not just relegated to public lands, but I
understand that private landowners, Indian Tribes--it's an
opportunity for everyone to work together.
Senator Daines. All right. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
We will go to Senator Hirono. I think she is with us.
Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Yes, I am. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Hirono. Congresswoman, thank you for our
conversation yesterday. I heard my Republican colleagues claim
that the Biden Administration's efforts to address climate
change and transition our country from relying heavily on
fossil fuels to generating more renewable energy are going to
kill jobs, and that those efforts, somehow, go against the very
mission of the Interior Department. In fact, I would argue that
addressing climate change and creating clean energy jobs for
the American people both fit squarely within the Department's
mission, and I am quoting, ``the Department of the Interior
conserves and manages the nation's natural resources and
cultural heritage for the benefit and enjoyment of the American
people, provides scientific and other information about natural
resources and natural hazards to address societal challenges
and create opportunities for the American people, and honors
the nation's trust, responsibilities, and special commitments
to American Indians, Alaska Natives, and affiliated Island
communities, to help them prosper.'' Conversely, nowhere does
it state it is the Department's mission to maintain or increase
oil and gas extraction.
Yesterday, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
repeatedly brought up previous statements that you have made on
social media, or bills that you sponsored in the House, to
argue that your prior positions, prior actions, and policy
positions, which you took in the interest of your constituents,
just like we on the Committee do every day, are radical, and
make you unqualified for the position. Yet the prior Secretary
of Interior, David Bernhardt, who previously lobbied on behalf
of the fossil fuel industry, literally had to carry around a
card with a list of groups that he had to avoid in order to
comply with ethics. He had some major conflicts of interest
going on during his tenure as Secretary of Interior.
It is no surprise that his actions, the actions he took as
Interior Secretary, routinely benefited the fossil fuel
industry, with which he had been long associated. But I do not
recall my Republican colleagues asking whether Mr. Bernhardt
would keep an open mind about other energy sources. Meanwhile,
we have heard you, Congresswoman, assure us that you will be
fair and open, that it is not your goal to get rid of jobs that
rely on fossil fuels, and that you would create other jobs. So
we should be focused on the opportunity for America to be a
leader, to lead in addressing climate change, to lead in
renewable energy, technology development and innovation, to
lead in protecting our resources for generations to come.
Congresswoman, you are someone who knows about future
generations, considering that you are the 35th generation of
your tribe.
We need to think sustainability, not just continuing heavy
reliance on fossil fuels, knowing that climate change is and
will continue to cost our country billions of dollars each year
if we continue down our current path. And we in Hawaii, of
course, know the impact of climate change because we are, as an
island state, the tip of the spear in what is happening with
climate change, global warming, ocean acidification, all of
that.
So, Congresswoman, considering that you will be required to
navigate your way through very strongly held opposing views, as
shown by the questions that you have been asked in your
hearing, what motivates you to want to be Secretary of Interior
and serve our country in that capacity?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator Hirono, for that question
and, I mean, let me just say this, if I could take the liberty
of the story that Senator Cantwell mentioned regarding me
today. One of my dear friends in Iyanbito Navajo Nation, Albert
Shirley, he listens to this hearing on the radio, a radio I
bought him that's powered by the sun because he doesn't have
electricity. And he texted me this morning and said the name--
the Navajo Code Talkers--the first word they decided to use
when they were working on the code was ``ne-he-mah,'' and that
means ``our mother'' and that was the code they used for the
United States of America.
And I feel very strongly that that sums up what we're
dealing with. This is all of our country. This is our mother.
You've heard the Earth referred to as Mother Earth. It's
difficult to not feel obligated to protect this land, and I
feel that every indigenous person in this country understands
that, which is why we have such a high rate of our people who
serve in the military. We want to protect this country, and
that means protecting it in every single way and ensuring that
those jobs, that sustenance, the opportunities for our children
and grandchildren to learn and grow in this beautiful country--
that we keep that for many generations to come. It's an
obligation of mine that I take very seriously, and that is
really, I guess, giving you a perspective of why I feel that I
would be honored to be confirmed and help President Biden to
move this country forward in many, many ways with respect to
the Department of the Interior.
Senator Hirono. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Next we have Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And good morning, Representative Haaland.
Ms. Haaland. Good morning.
Senator Murkowski. Yesterday, when I began my questions, I
spoke about the significance of the Department of the Interior
and the role that the Interior Department has over Alaska lands
because of our structure. And it is probably too small for you
here, but you have seen it because I provided you with many of
the maps. It is a patchwork of color, but that color all
represents the federally managed lands that we have, and it is
significant and it is a big part of my job and it would be an
incredibly big part of your job, should you be confirmed as
Secretary of the Interior.
[The map displayed follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Murkowski. I mentioned yesterday that in the
initial Secretarial Order--there were seven mentions of Alaska
in the Executive Orders and the Secretarial Orders that
specifically call us out for enhanced review, pause--the most
significant of those, truly, is the Willow Project up in the
National Petroleum Reserve, an area that was designated by
Congress specifically for its resource opportunity. The Willow
Project is very significant right now in terms of its promise.
The EA, the Environmental Analysis, that was developed using
the integrated activity plan--this was done under the Obama
Administration. The final ROD was issued last fall. Now it is
part of this pause.
This is, again, probably the most promising area that we
have for us. It is recognized as the job creator coming on in a
state that has just been devastated, not only by COVID, but by
all of the other economic factors that have come at us. Labor
and Alaska Native groups have come out strongly in support. And
I would like to submit a couple of the letters for the record
here.
[Letters for the record follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Murkowski. My concern is that you have specifically
called out this project. On May 4th of last year, you and four
of your House colleagues signed a letter requesting then
Secretary Bernhardt to act unilaterally to suspend further
action on the Willow Master Development Plan. So the question
is not necessarily why you signed it. You signed it. But what I
need to know is, if you are confirmed, will you commit to
allowing the Willow Project to proceed without additional
changes or environmental review recognizing the trajectory that
this project has been on and your role to be an impartial
arbiter of permitting decisions on Willow and other similar
projects?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you for that question, and
thank you for the packet you sent me. I read all the letters
and I appreciate you providing me with that information. And
yes, as we've mentioned before, I think being a Secretary is
far different from being a Member of Congress. And so I do take
that role very seriously. If I'm confirmed, I will absolutely
consult with you. I understand how important your state is to
you and I just want you to know that the opportunities to speak
with you on these issues, the opportunities to speak with
Alaska Native Corporations and Alaska Native people, will be
absolutely important, and I appreciate that opportunity.
And of course, I will follow the law. I know that
permitting is moving forward currently in the Department and I
will take it very seriously.
Senator Murkowski. Well, this is not just important to me,
this is important to the state for jobs. This is important to
Alaska Natives. This is important, really, to the country. This
is a significant project and if we cannot produce oil resources
within the National Petroleum Reserve, it causes one to
question--where?
You mentioned ANCs, and this is an issue that I would like
to raise with you. This is the 50th anniversary of ANCSA, the
Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. You are very, very well
aware of that. You know that in Alaska we set things up
differently as part of the settlement. We do not have the
reservation, other than Metlakatla, as I mentioned. But we have
a model that is significantly different. It is the alternative
to the reservation system in the continental United States.
ANCs are part of that tribal structure, along with our tribal
health organizations, our village corporations. ANCs are not
sovereign governments. They do not seek to be. But their unique
structure allows for, really, true self determination and
economic empowerment.
I would like you to describe for me your understanding of
tribal representation in Alaska and what role ANCs play because
I have been concerned with some of the statements that you have
made, press releases that you have signed onto, letters that
you have signed onto that make me question whether you
understand fully the role of ANCs within this framework that
was established almost 50 years ago with regard to Alaska
Native governance.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator Murkowski.
And yes, I know that Alaska is a unique situation with the
Alaska Native Corporations. I understand that there are also
229 Alaska Native villages within those regions. I also
understand that ANCs provide services--health services, social
services--to the Alaska Native people and to that regard, yes,
they're not like any other corporations, when we think of
corporations. So I understand that's important. Of course, I am
not a scholar of Alaska, but with your help I will absolutely
learn more and be absolutely willing to make sure that Alaska
Native people, whether through the Alaska Native Corporations
or any other organizations, get the services that they need.
Senator Murkowski. Well, thank you. We will follow up on
that one because as you know, that is very, very key. It is not
just related to CARES funding, it really is about the whole
government structure and not losing the underpinnings that we
have put in place for many decades.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am well over my time and I
apologize to my colleagues.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. With that, we will go to
Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate
it very much. And Congresswoman, thank you for your second day
of testimony today.
Yesterday I brought up the Dakota Access Pipeline (DAPL) to
you and I mentioned that the Three Affiliated Tribes--the
Mandan, Hidatsa and the Arikara--produce an incredible amount
of oil. And in fact, they ship 300,000 barrels a day--300,000
barrels a day of their production through the Dakota Access
Pipeline. And the oil that they produce represents about 90
percent of their revenues. So again, you know, this is what
they use for their essential needs like education, healthcare,
infrastructure and, really, so many other things. Now, I have a
statement from them in regard to the Dakota Access Pipeline and
I would ask that that it be included in the record, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Without objection.
Senator Hoeven. All right.
[Statement from the Three Affiliated Tribes follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Hoeven. So with that, Congresswoman, given that the
Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara Nation ships a significant portion
of their oil through DAPL each day, wouldn't a shutdown of the
pipeline have devastating economic consequences for them?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, if I understand the question, you're
asking if the oil pipeline shuts down, if it will have a
devastating effect. Senator, I would be more than happy to--I
don't know the specificity of every single job there, but I can
tell you that I would be more than dedicated to being briefed
on that issue, if I am confirmed.
Senator Hoeven. Well, they produce 300,000 barrels of oil a
day. That represents 90 percent of the revenue and a
significant amount of that oil goes through the pipeline, so
wouldn't it follow that if that pipeline shut down, that is
going to have a major economic impact on them?
Ms. Haaland. I understand what you're saying, Senator,
thank you.
Senator Hoeven. Do you agree or disagree?
Ms. Haaland. I don't disagree. I understand what you're
saying. If something shuts down then jobs can be lost and I
understand that. So thank you for sharing that with me.
Senator Hoeven. Yes. Thank you, Congresswoman. Now, if you
are confirmed, will you commit on behalf of the Administration
to consult with the Three Affiliated Tribes about what DAPL
means for the education, healthcare, infrastructure, and other
services provided to tribal members? Will you commit to that
consultation with the Three Affiliated Tribes?
Ms. Haaland. Senator Hoeven, tribal consultation is
mandated in this government and I would absolutely consult with
tribes when issues are affecting them. And I also would just
add on, Senator, that with respect to the Executive Order that
the President signed, it does not affect tribal lands, it just
affects public lands, the pause on the leases.
Senator Hoeven. Right, Congresswoman, and that is a good
point and an important point because it does affect federal
lands, of which we have a significant amount in North Dakota.
And in fact, last year, the Department of the Interior
dispersed $66.7 million in revenue to the State of North Dakota
for production on federal land. So it is a very important issue
to us. I understand your point about the reservation. But the
moratorium does affect our federal lands.
So my question in regard to the federal lands, and first,
would you expect imports of foreign oil to go up or down if we
stop developing oil and gas on federal lands?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I would absolutely, if I'm confirmed,
ask to be briefed on this issue and would be more than happy to
continue a conversation with you on it.
Senator Hoeven. If we do not produce the oil here then it
is logical that we are going to import more from places like
Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other places. Do you think
their environmental standards are better than ours or not?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I am not altogether briefed on the
environmental standards of other countries currently, but I am
proud that here in the United States we have put the safety and
health of our workers as a priority.
Senator Hoeven. Are you committed to working with us on
trying to advance things like carbon capture and storage in
terms of the work that we are doing in which our state is the
leader? Will you commit to work with us on that?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, it's my understanding that President
Biden is open to many ideas about how we get to net zero. So I
appreciate your ideas and look forward to speaking with you
more and, of course, if I'm confirmed, I'd be willing to work
with you.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Congresswoman, I appreciate it.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Next we have Senator Lankford.
Senator Lankford. Chairman, thank you very much.
Representative, good to see you again. Thanks for doing the
second day of questions with us as well.
As you know, we have 200,000 miles of petroleum pipeline
already in the ground in America. We have 2.4 million miles of
natural gas pipeline already in America. There is a
conversation about adding new lines that has gone on here
frequently. Let me talk about existing lines that are already
there. Generally, would you agree that federal agencies should
work with pipeline companies to be able to keep rights-of-way
up to date to ensure access to those pipelines already in the
ground?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. It sounds like a
reasonable idea.
Senator Lankford. Okay. In your understanding, does the
Department of the Interior have the authority to deny right-of-
way renewals for existing pipelines that are compliant with all
applicable laws and regulations?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, where the Department of the Interior
has the authority over such issues, they would absolutely be
important, and if I'm confirmed, I will absolutely take a look
at that and----
Senator Lankford. Do you think that the Department of the
Interior has the authority to deny an area where they already
have an existing right-of-way, though? To go in and say there
is an existing pipeline already in this area, as you know there
are thousands of miles of pipeline that travel underneath
federal lands right now. Do you believe the Department of the
Interior has the authority to be able to go in and say you no
longer have right-of-way in these areas on federal lands for
existing pipelines?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, of course, I am not at the Department
of the Interior currently. I can't fully answer that question,
but I would be happy to speak with you, if I'm confirmed and,
certainly, I'm sure the Department would be happy to give you
an answer on that.
Senator Lankford. But do you believe that the Department of
the Interior should reevaluate existing pipelines under federal
lands?
Ms. Haaland. Again Senator, I can't answer that question
because I don't know what the answer is, but if I am confirmed,
of course, it's important to you. I would be happy to speak
with you more.
Senator Lankford. It is actually important to every
American that wants to stay warm in the winter and for everyone
that flies in a plane or drives a car. It becomes a pretty
important issue because if we lose access to pipelines that are
already in the ground that go through federal lands or have
right-of-way, we lose access. And what happens is, all that
energy then goes to truck traffic and goes to train traffic. Do
you believe truck and train traffic moving energy is safer than
a pipeline or do you think pipelines are safer than truck and
train traffic?
Ms. Haaland. Again, I wish I could answer that question. I
don't know what the answer is, Senator. I haven't seen those
statistics.
Senator Lankford. I would go ahead and tell you that it is
safer and less expensive to be able to move it in a pipeline
than it is on truck traffic or in train traffic. But let me--we
will talk about that in the future.
The goal of the Endangered Species Act--we have had the
opportunity to be able to talk about this. Do you believe the
goal of the Endangered Species Act is to keep endangered
species on the list or is it to graduate endangered species off
the list?
Ms. Haaland. I think the goal is to restore species. I
think the goal is to work with communities to make sure that
we're restoring those species so that they can survive.
Senator Lankford. Yes, we have a wonderful little bug
called the American burying beetle----
Ms. Haaland. Yes.
Senator Lankford [continuing]. That is in multiple
different states. We have it a lot in Southeast Oklahoma. It
was declared endangered and threatened before and we did a long
study on it. It is a bug that lives underground and so we
really did not know what the population was. So for five years
there was a population study on the American burying beetle and
after five years of study, they found out there are a lot more
of those bugs out there than anyone ever thought and they are
in a lot more places than anyone ever thought. And so, for five
years that was the required study. The number exceeded every
single year what the standard was to be able to set. So it
should come off the list. Instead, there was a pause to say,
but, in 50 years there could be a change in temperature and if
there is a change in temperature 50 years from now, it could
affect that species. And so, we are going to leave it on the
list as threatened.
So my question to you is, statistically, what do you
believe about how we should handle endangered species, if they
achieve all the population numbers, all the goals that were set
to delist them? Should we maintain all those species to say, in
the future they could be threatened, so we are going to leave
them listed or should they be able to graduate off if they hit
those lists and then if in 30, 40 years from now we start to
see a population decline, to relist them?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And I know that it's important to look at the science when
it comes to the Endangered Species Act.
Senator Lankford. It is.
Ms. Haaland. And I know that every listing is different. So
what I would say is if I'm confirmed I would absolutely work
with the scientists who manage these species and absolutely
take a good, close look. I appreciate your knowledge and caring
for the beetles in your state and look forward to working with
you on that. But in the end, I believe it's science that
manages that.
Senator Lankford. I do as well and when you hit all the
numbers and the targets that science had set, it seems like you
would actually graduate off the program.
One more quick comment on this. There are leases, there are
permits, and then there are what they call sundries. These are
the various items once you go all through the permits and it is
how you put the roads in, just the decisions that are made.
Typically, those are made in each region because the leases and
the permits are done. The sundries have now been pulled up to
Washington, DC, with Interior to be, for all those decisions
that are typically made in the region, to now be made in
Washington, DC.
My question to you is, would you plan as the Secretary to
keep those sundry decisions in DC or would the regions be able
to have those decisions again, as they have in the past?
Ms. Haaland. As I have said many times throughout this
hearing yesterday, it's important for local communities to
weigh in on important decisions and, of course, I would take a
look at that, if I'm confirmed, but I understand what you're
saying and I appreciate you raising that with me today.
Senator Lankford. So it is your hope that the sundry
decisions would return, is that what you are saying?
Ms. Haaland. I am saying that I am not sure. I would have
to take a look at it and be fully briefed on that issue before
I could give an answer, but I appreciate the opportunities for
local communities to weigh in on decisions.
Senator Lankford. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Cassidy.
Senator Cassidy. ----it is very tough--am I on?----
The Chairman. You are on, Senator. We hear you.
Senator Cassidy. ----that you have handled a couple days of
questioning and--I think I can speak for all my colleagues--we
are not challenging to be rude. I am representing those
families who just lost their jobs because of the cancellation
of the XL Pipeline, which the Obama Administration science said
would lower greenhouse gas emissions. And I am trying to
represent those families whose jobs are threatened by what that
action indicates the Biden Administration is going to do, not
based upon science, based upon a political agenda which seems
to be more concerned with paying off constituency groups'
expectations than lowering greenhouse gas emissions or
providing employment for fellow Americans. And that is a bitter
pill to take when someone does not give a damn about your job
because they have a political agenda and they are ignoring the
science.
Now, it is not your fault. You are just the appointee. And
as you say, you are just the messenger. But nonetheless, I am
going to speak to some of that today and give more light to the
consequences of a politically driven, non-scientific-based
agenda which is costing Americans their jobs.
So first, Senator Cantwell spoke about the Great American
Outdoors Act. Turns out, oil and gas development in the Gulf of
Mexico is what funds about 90 percent of it. So when Senator
Cantwell was asking you to commit to funding it, and at the
same time there is a threat to that revenue stream, that is
kind of a way you cannot answer that correctly. Your agenda of
the Biden Administration threatens the funding of the Great
American Outdoors Act. It also, by the way, threatens the
funding for the Gulf of Mexico, the GOMESA Act, which funds
coastal restoration in my state.
Now, let me just say the importance of that. By the way,
when one of your predecessors, Ryan Zinke, came to Louisiana, a
woman came to meet with him at a roundtable, and I am quoting
her. She described herself as, ``one of the biggest liberals he
would ever meet.'' But she understood the value of the oil and
gas industry to Louisiana and, more broadly, to the country,
given the conservation programs funded by U.S. energy. Not a
direct quote, but good enough.
So now, as regards my state, the funding we get from
revenue sharing from Gulf of Mexico activity helps fund our
coastal restoration, which is to say, our adaptation to climate
change. And at this point I would like to introduce to the
record, Mr. Chairman, a letter from my governor, my Democratic
Governor, John Bel Edwards and his Assistant on Coastal
Restoration, Chip Kline, both the letter and the testimony--the
letter from Governor Edwards and the testimony from Chip Kline.
The Chairman. Without objection.
[Letter and testimony from Louisiana follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Cassidy. And I am going to quote a little bit from
my Democratic Governor's letter. ``We have a plan which will
cost $50 billion over 50 years, thereabouts, to restore our
coastline. GOMESA is the principal form of federal funding to
achieve this, and canceling leases and program pause creates
uncertainty in coastal planning processes, having predicted
$389 million in GOMESA revenue over the next three years. Also,
Louisiana is entitled to $9 billion of the BP Settlement
dollars from the Deepwater Horizon. We cannot access that--we
cannot access those dollars unless we have sufficient funds to
apply. Any lag or delay in GOMESA funding calls into question
the ability of Louisiana to realize the benefits of this $9
billion. Oil and gas production supports 85 percent of our
coastal resiliency program.'' The consequences of these
actions, this political agenda, go against the science and the
economics of rebuilding my state and, by the way, you mentioned
that you have relatives in Houma, Louisiana, goes against the
interest of preserving their homeland.
Now, I just, I just, oh, I am so frustrated by this and it
is not directed to you, it is to a political agenda which is so
injurious to what is going on.
Next, let me also say there has been some discussion about,
from Senator Cantwell, about the greenhouse gas activities
associated with oil and gas, but from the Obama
Administration--again, the science, if you will--that the EIA
says methane emissions in federal waters in 2019 accounted for
just 2.5 percent of nationwide emissions. That is from the
EIA--2.5 percent of nationwide emissions, but 17 percent of
nationwide oil and gas production. And when President Obama's
administration finalized their five-year Outer Continental
Shelf drilling plan, the EIA said that the greenhouse gas
emissions from the activities associated with lease sales would
be slightly lower than not doing lease sales. Why? Because if
we don't develop our domestic production, then we import from
overseas. There have been several questions as regards whether
or not we would import. I would say that Dr. Cruickshank, who
is a career appointee at BOEM, has testified in the House of
Representatives that indeed if we decrease production, we do
import.
And I would also offer for the record, Mr. Chairman, a
letter in 2018 signed by Senators Cantwell, Menendez, Schumer,
and Markey which actually asks the President to ask OPEC to
increase production so we could increase more oil and gas
because oil and gas prices had gone up so much.
The Chairman. Without objection.
[2018 letter to the President follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Senator, your time is just about over.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you.
Not only do we have testimony that it does, but we actually
have people recognizing that the shortage increases gas prices
and my Democratic colleagues asking we do that, even though the
Obama Administration says that if we substitute foreign
production for domestic production it increases greenhouse gas
emissions.
I will close with this, Congressman Haaland, I truly hope,
if you are appointed, that you are guided by science and not by
the President's political agenda. You may have faith in it, but
so far, his current actions do not give me faith in it.
Thank you. I yield back.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hyde-Smith.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and welcome
back, Representative Haaland.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Hyde-Smith. As in Louisiana, Mississippi is a Gulf
state and one thing that is important to us is the Bureau of
Ocean Energy Management (BOEM). And you know, if you are
confirmed, I am just interested in knowing what your priorities
are for the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management and the Outer
Continental Shelf.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And of course, I am not there. If I'm confirmed, every
single piece of the Department of Interior will be important. I
know that there are some amazing career staff who have
dedicated their careers to ensuring that we're moving this
Department forward. The first thing I will do is consult with
each of those bureaus to make sure that I understand fully the
issues. But Senator, as I mentioned yesterday too, the Congress
is a co-equal branch of government. I don't intend to, in
fact--I intend, I should say--I intend to make sure that you
are always going to be part of this important conversation. You
know your state far better than I ever will and I would
appreciate your knowledge and your consultation on all of those
issues.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you.
Also, we talked about the Endangered Species Act with the
Senator that spoke a couple of sessions ago. And farming/
agriculture is the number one industry in Mississippi. One out
of every four jobs is related to agriculture. So the Endangered
Species Act, to help us be productive, is very important and I
believe it is critical to utilize it, you know, any tool that
is provided in the Farm bill to conserve endangered species
while improving the review process in ways that lessen the
administrative burdens on government, recognizing the needs of
agriculture as well as the needs of public and private rural,
suburban, and urban land and property owners and promote
confidence in the regulatory process that affects us so
greatly. Will the Department of the Interior, under your
leadership, provide the resources to find a solution to the
Endangered Species Act consultation roadblocks for pesticide
review?
Ms. Haaland. That sounds like an important issue, Senator
and, of course, that would be important to me. So I look
forward to working with you, striking the right balance,
working in partnerships with folks on the ground and certainly,
farmers are absolutely important to this discussion and working
to just find the solutions that we need to, to make sure that
folks can work and sustain themselves.
Senator Hyde-Smith. And one thing that I am hearing from my
constituents is that we know that the low-income households pay
a disproportionate share of their income to overall energy cost
for various reasons and since President Biden's recent
Executive Order restricting oil and gas leasing and halting the
Keystone Pipeline, I continue to hear from my constituents,
especially since we have gone last week through an ice storm
that we are not used to going through. They are worried about
their rising energy costs. And you know, we had to use
different sources. We had to use natural gas when electricity
was out and they are very concerned about this right now.
What is the thought process behind restricting the U.S.
energy production as it relates to energy affordability for my
constituents, particularly for the low-income households? What
is the thought process behind that if we are so sure that it is
going to increase our costs to the lower income?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I think that it's important that
everyone have the energy they need to sustain their daily
lives. I, as you were talking, I was remembering my grandmother
at Mesita, where I talked about yesterday, they didn't get
gas--or electricity or running water until the mid-'70s. So I
feel like we're--this is 2021--everyone should be able to
partake in those modern conveniences and, certainly, not break
the bank.
I know that having diversity of energy resources will
certainly help in times when we have these ice storms and
climate events that cause power lines and so forth to go down.
And I think that--I always move back to the conversation I had
with Chairman Manchin about technology and innovation. I think
that we have a tremendous future ahead of us, working to find
the solutions for those things. I think that if we work
together to find those solutions that energy costs for families
could absolutely go down. And I hope that that's the case.
We have solar panels on our home. The electric bill is
about $10 a month. I wish everyone had that.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you. I know my time is out. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. Thank you very much.
Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall. Okay, thank you, Chairman and welcome
again, Congressman Haaland. Good to see you again.
I want to start off by talking about the Endangered Species
Act and my endangered species is the lesser prairie-chicken,
but every state, of course, has one. And I just want to share
my story about the prairie-chicken. My mother's farm is ten
miles from Cassoday, Kansas. Now, Cassoday, Kansas, is called
the prairie-chicken capital of the world for a reason, and
growing up, one of our rights to passage was to go prairie-
chicken hunting with my dad and my uncles. And I remember very
vividly, ten years of age, I had a single-shot H&R shotgun. We
hunted Saturday, no luck. Sunday, no luck. And this is, you get
up at four in the morning and you go out and you freeze. You
sit in the middle of a milo field, so I was pretty distraught.
And we saw one prairie-chicken fly out into a prairie field of
our neighbors and I asked my dad and uncle, ``Can I go shoot
that prairie-chicken?'' They said, ``Oh, you don't have a
chance. It'll fly before you get there.'' Went out. Stalked it.
And sure enough, ten-year-old little Roger Marshall shot a
prairie-
chicken, his first bird, and I was a hero for the day. We took
it back to the farm and we had prairie-chicken and noodles.
And we have seen the population decimated. That was a
greater prairie-chicken. The issue is the lesser prairie-
chicken. I was fortunate enough to be on the Wildlife Parks and
Game Commission there in Kansas and followed the prairie-
chicken really closely. In 2013, it was at its nadir and, just
coincidentally, 2013 was the end of a big, big drought and as
it started raining again, habitat improved and the prairie-
chicken population has doubled of what it was in 2013. And I
think that is a story that is real common, you know, that
droughts cause wildlife to go down and it rains, the wildlife
comes back. But as I really dug deep into that issue, voluntary
conservation was the most successful. The government projects
were miserable failures, but a couple ranchers--fifth, sixth,
generation ranchers, did some volunteer grazing changes and
really were responsible for that comeback along with some rain.
So, you know, my two questions on the Endangered Species
Act are, how do you feel about voluntary conservation in
general, and then, how do you measure success? We know how
species get on the list, but how do you get off the list, just
in general?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, I loved that
story.
And yes, I am all for that. I mean, we are all stewards of
this land, and if more of us took that initiative that those
farmers did that you're talking about, I think our country
would be in a much better place. So please thank them for me.
I know that the ESA is managed by science and I understand
that, you know, we want those species to recover to a certain
degree. I want you to know that I will absolutely pay close
attention to this issue. I know that the partnerships that you
talk about between states, between Tribal Nations, between
local communities--those are very important for all of us to
find the solutions and make sure that those species are there
so that your grandchildren can have the same experiences that
you had.
Senator Marshall. You know, absolutely, and that is the
goal here is those great memories that we can pass on. But just
in general though, to push a little bit, what would it look
like to you for an endangered species to come off the list? I
understand we are trying to follow the science, but when humans
interact with ecology, that is when the conflicts arise. So
what does it look like to be improving the species enough that
they would get off the Endangered Species List?
Ms. Haaland. Well, I imagine that it varies from species to
species, but I know species do need to recover to a certain
degree, and then I understand that, you know, their habitat and
so the things that keep them alive, as you well know--the
difference between us and the animals is we have the ability to
reason and animals can only live by instinct. So they can't
live outside of their environment. So this is going to be an
important issue for me, Senator, I promise. And I will look
forward to--I'm not at the Department yet--I don't have every
single stat on the Endangered Species List, but you can bet
that it will be important to me and to the Department.
Senator Marshall. Okay, I want to talk about water rights,
just for a second. And again, going back to my boyhood, on
Saturday nights after we got all the hay hauled, we would sit
in the cellar and everyone would bring all their stories and
from time to time. You live out in the country, there is going
to be a water rights issue. And I just remember my grandad
saying three or four times, whiskey is for drinking, water is
for fighting. And I had no idea. Quivira Wildlife Refuge is 30
miles from my home, a beautiful refuge, a refuge that I have
had the opportunity to hunt in and around it for decades as
well. And there are creeks that flow into it and then right in
the middle of some really incredible corn land, but we have to
irrigate. And thus, there is the conflict between the water
rights of Quivira Wildlife Refuge and the farmers.
And this corn growing is 90 percent of the economy for that
county, 90 percent. I mean, this is important. These are the
farmers whose babies I have delivered the last 25 years. So
this is personal to me. You know, Quivira has a water right, of
course they do. And the farmers have a right as well. Quivira's
is senior to it. But as I have seen through this drought, the
duck numbers, the geese numbers have stayed great, despite
Quivira not using all of its water right, that it is more
thanks to folks like Ducks Unlimited that are providing better
habitat up north, the ducks and geese have done better. The
water and shorebirds, all those, have done better.
Does the federal refuge have to always use all of its water
right? Why can't they share that with farmers in a more
equitable, friendly fashion, I guess?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Senator.
And I know that water law is complicated and important. And
I know that there are water attorneys at the Department and you
can bet that I will seek their advice and look at this issue
and rely on you to bring us your ideas about how we can make
things better.
Senator Marshall. But would you acknowledge that the
farmers----
The Chairman. Senator.
Senator Marshall. I yield back, thank you.
The Chairman. Go ahead, finish up. Finish up.
Senator Marshall [off mic]. Would you disagree--the
economics of the farmers is also as important as it is for the
ducks and the geese?
Ms. Haaland. I think the--coming from a traditional farming
family who have been farming for centuries and centuries,
farming is absolutely important. It's an American tradition. I
support farmers and would love to find solutions to these
issues, Senator.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you. Thank you so much, Senator.
Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And Congresswoman, it sounds like it has been another long
and challenging morning, and I have been to two other hearings,
but I wanted to come back, and I know we are getting ready to
wrap up. I just want to come back to some of the fundamental
propositions that your nomination is all about. The first is,
you get rural jobs. That is so important. And I am not talking
about this in an abstract way. I saw it when Congressman Neguse
and I were putting together the 21st Century Civilian
Conservation Corps legislation and a chance to create jobs for
thousands of young people in the woods, and scores of vendors
could sell goods and services as part of that program. You did
not just say you are for jobs. You went out and you helped us
actually get sponsors for the legislation.
Why should that not be a surprise? Because you are the
league leader in terms of bipartisanship over there, in terms
of actually getting people to go along with bills. So, on the
track record that we Westerners care about, which is jobs and
collaboration, the kinds of things I have heard you talking
about for the last couple of days are what I hear folks say
they want in my most conservative counties. They say they want
more jobs. They recognize that jobs and protecting our
treasures are not mutually exclusive, that you can do both,
which you have said. And they sure as hell want everybody to
get together and collaborate, which you have made your calling
card.
I wanted to ask one more question about an area where,
again, you have brought those principles--the question of jobs,
the question of protecting our treasures, and bringing people
together. Another area where you have put those principles in
motion involves both water conflicts, which we have, as you
know, all over the West, and trying to deal with tribal water
issues, which impacts practically every member of this
Committee. Certainly, all the western members have those
challenges.
So give us a little bit of insight into yet another area
where you are doing good, on-the-ground problem solving--and
most of the members of this Committee are from the West. This
is not an abstract issue. This is the real world we see when we
go home and we have those town hall meetings. Tell us a little
bit about what you have done on resolving water conflicts and
tribal water infrastructure. Two separate issues on which I
know you have a good track record.
Ms. Haaland. Right, thank you, Senator.
And what I'll say is, you know, what I, when I think about
tribal water infrastructure, I'm reminded just recently of, you
know, a few articles that I read about people on the Navajo
Nation having to drive 20 miles just to fill up some water
barrels. Some of these people may already have running water,
but their water is polluted. And I think in 2021, every single
American should have an opportunity to have safe and healthy
drinking water. This is a human right, in my opinion. And I
mentioned earlier that yes, my grandmother didn't get running
water at her village until 1975. I learned early on how to
conserve water because when you're hauling buckets of water
across the village on a dusty road, you don't want to spill a
drop of it. And I think that we, not one drop of water has come
into or left our planet in 4.6 billion years. It's just that
the climate change has caused our water to move in different
areas. So we need to protect the water that we have.
I am all for ensuring that we can come to solutions with
tribal water infrastructure, that we can look at water in a new
lens in 2021 when we know climate change is a drastic issue,
especially in the West with the droughts that we have. And I
hope that we can find ways to conserve, recycle, move--move all
of those issues forward so that nobody is stuck in a desert
without any water to drink, essentially.
Senator Wyden. The Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs in
my state--and I appreciate the courtesy of my friend, the
Chairman. I will just wrap up really quickly. They are sure
looking for your new lens in terms of trying to deal with these
tribal water issues, and Warm Springs is not alone. I can look
right down this Committee, and we see so many states
represented by this Committee who have these challenges with
significant tribal populations trying to resolve water issues.
When you are talking about tribal populations, you get into the
broader water conflict questions, particularly in the West,
where there is scarcity.
As we wrap this up, I just want to make the case, again,
that we started considering your nomination really early
yesterday. I think you had some of the same sort of questions
today. We do not have people come back twice very often. I just
want you to know, not only am I going to support you, I am
going to speak for you on the Floor of the Senate, because I
think you have made the case, beyond a doubt, that you will be
there for rural jobs. You will do it in a way that is not
divorced from protecting our treasures, because, in my part of
the world, we want jobs and environmental protection. We are
seeing two sides of the same coin. I think you get it.
I will tell you, the single biggest issue--and I talk about
these issues with my friend, Senator Manchin, all the time, and
with all my western colleagues here--when we go home, the
number one thing farmers, ranchers, and environmental folks say
they want, is people to try to come together. They want to find
a collaborative approach, and if you are talking about that
being your priority--you led the league over there in the House
of Representatives in terms of people coming together. When
Congressman Neguse and I were looking for somebody who could
help us, we said we have a big idea, something that really goes
back almost to FDR, the 21st Century Civilian Conservation
Corps. We said we need somebody good who people like and want
to work with to go get us some House sponsors. That somebody
was you.
I am very appreciative, and as we move to wrap up the
consideration of this important nomination, I want it clear, I
am all in.
Ms. Haaland. Thank you.
Senator Wyden. I am supporting Congresswoman Haaland and we
will hopefully get a chance to make those points on the Floor
of the United States Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. With that, we have a few more questions that
Senators would like to ask, if possible, and then I am going to
have to leave. If I leave early, then Senator Barrasso will
continue, but right now we have a few more questions. I am
going to submit my questions for the record.
I just want to thank you for coming back and being so
diligent and doing such a good job. I really appreciate that,
Congresswoman Haaland, very much.
With that, I am going to turn my time over to Senator
Barrasso right now for questions.
Senator Barrasso. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman.
A couple of different things, and people have these
questions because we are very concerned about our communities
and where we live, the jobs that are included and related and
this major role that the Department of the Interior plays in
the lives and the livelihoods of so many people in our home
states.
So on February 4th of this year, just a couple of weeks
ago, I sent the Acting Interior Secretary a letter which
included 22 specific questions about his Secretarial Order
banning oil and gas leasing on federal lands and waters for 60
days. On Monday, the Acting Secretary sent a response which
largely restates his Secretarial Order and fails to answer my
specific questions. So I am going to resubmit my 22 questions
that will be addressed to you in writing and be part of the
hearing record for this hearing. Now, to me, it is
unconscionable that the people of Wyoming cannot get a straight
answer from this Department. And I know you are not in that
position now, but there is an Acting Secretary who is refusing
to answer the questions.
So can I get your commitment that you will answer my
questions as they are coming to you in writing?
Ms. Haaland. Yes, Senator.
Senator Barrasso. I appreciate that because I know the
staff at the Department is going to help you respond to the
written questions from all of us on the Committee and I am
confident that with your help we can get answers to these
questions. So thank you.
I want to follow up a little bit. We have had questions
about the Endangered Species Act. It is an important
conservation tool, as you have said, that was enacted to
protect species from extinction. The proper application of the
law has resulted in the recovery of several species. It is
important to me that the law be applied in a responsible manner
so that we can protect the species that truly need protection.
Yesterday, when you were asked why you would sponsor
legislation that would put the grizzly bears under permanent
federal protection--federal protection, permanently--your bill
in the House with your name on it, you said, ``I imagine at the
time I was caring about bears.'' Well, I want to make sure you
care about the law. There is a law of the land. Will you commit
to doing everything in your power to fight the frivolous
lawsuits and delist species that government scientists have
concluded are fully recovered?
Ms. Haaland. Thank you, Ranking Member Barrasso.
And I know that the Endangered Species Act is extremely
important, as you said. I, if I'm confirmed, I would seek
partnerships with states, with tribes, with local communities,
to talk about this important issue and----
Senator Barrasso. I am talking about the law.
Ms. Haaland. Sir, I will always follow the law.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
The global pandemic has created an unprecedented situation
that has kept people isolated for almost a year. One way that
people have coped with all of the restrictions from the
pandemic has been by visiting national parks and public lands.
You were critical of efforts to open federal land during the
pandemic, even though it was done in coordination with state
and local health departments. It is important to me that we are
ensuring that the public has a place to go during this public
health crisis when there are very few other options.
Will you protect access to our national parks and other
public lands during the pandemic?
Ms. Haaland. Ranking Member Barrasso, yes. I believe now
that President Biden is in office there is a mask mandate on
our public lands and in our national parks and I feel that if
everyone does their part to social distance and be careful and
wear their masks, that we will have more of those
opportunities.
Senator Barrasso. Yesterday, you said you wanted to move
forward with President Biden's Build Back Better plan that
would, as you said, ``create millions of jobs in clean
energy,'' your quote from yesterday. So recently John Kerry
claimed that the fastest growing job before COVID, he said, was
solar technician, and he said that the Administration would
give fossil fuel workers, in his words, better choices, and the
Washington Post fact checker then just looked into what former
Senator and Secretary of State Kerry had to say. This is what
the Washington Post fact checker said. They said he was
offering false hope--false hope from the Administration with a
misleading use of statistics. The Washington Post went on and
said it identified about 10,400 new wind and solar jobs over
the next ten years. We are talking about maybe a million energy
jobs being lost and the Washington Post says of John Kerry, you
are talking about 10,000 jobs relative to a million?
Do you have any evidence to dispute what the Washington
Post has said about the statements coming out of this
Administration and the false hope being offered?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, what I can say is I'm going to fight
hard for every single job. I want people to work. I know what
that's like and I promise you that wherever I have
opportunities, I will take them to make sure that people have
secure futures. Every family deserves to have a roof over their
head.
Senator Barrasso. Well, we have heard similar types of
rhetoric that we have heard from this Administration and from
John Kerry back in 2009 under the Obama Administration and we
ended up with failures like Solyndra--the promise of green jobs
and ended up with billions of wasted taxpayer dollars, bankrupt
companies, and almost no actual jobs.
Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Haaland, good to see you again.
Ms. Haaland. Nice to see you.
Senator Daines. During the course of the last couple of
days, Representative Haaland, you have implied that you would
virtually blindly follow President Biden in his positions on
energy and other important issues for the West, like land
management. I can tell you, folks back home are really
concerned----
Ms. Haaland. Okay.
Senator Daines [continuing]. About the lurch to the left of
this Administration and, if confirmed, you would be eighth in
line of succession to the Presidency of the United States.
Isn't the role of a Cabinet Secretary to advise the President
on these important issues, not just follow him blindly?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, the way I have always taken any
position I have had is I feel that I am part of a team, and if
I am confirmed, it's working with all of the other Cabinet
Secretaries as well as with President Biden and acting as a
team. And of course, as I have mentioned many times, Congress
is a co-equal branch of government. I don't think we can move
these important issues forward by ourselves. We need to work
together.
Senator Daines. Yes, thank you. Just the answer we kept
getting where you are going to follow President Biden and I am
hoping you would be a leader that would advise him where you
want to go and not just blindly follow, frankly, his leadership
right now that is moving this country to a very anti-
conventional source of energy and so forth.
I want to follow up on my 30/30 question. You were the
leader in the House on that legislation. It is President
Biden's initiative. You are also the author of that resolution
in the House. You clarified that you are seeking to preserve 30
percent of all land, including private land. What executive
authorities do you have and will you use to accomplish that?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I don't have all the details of how
President Biden intends to move the 30 by 30 initiative
forward. But I do understand that he is hoping for many
different folks to work together to achieve that. I was proud
to support that. I know your former colleague, Senator Tom
Udall, introduced it on this side of the Capitol. It is the--30
by 30 is the number that scientists believe we should conserve
if we want to have a future for our grandchildren, and I feel
like it is an exciting thing to start talking about the
possibility of achieving that.
Senator Daines. So there are multiple environmental laws
that guide actions on federal lands, as you well know--NEPA,
ESA, and HHPA. In what meaningful ways do you believe our
public lands are not being conserved?
Ms. Haaland. Well, of course, yes, I know there's a
plethora of laws out there that protect our public lands.
Senator, I'd be happy to take a look at that and answer your
question in its entirety and submit it for your consideration.
Senator Daines. Thank you.
You know, the USGS has already reported that 30 percent of
our lands are in conservation status. So it is not clear to me
what we are trying to accomplish with that resolution, but I
look forward to having further discussions on it.
Ms. Haaland. Yes, I do too.
Senator Daines. I know that my Colorado colleague, Senator
Hickenlooper, was not able to ask a question about the BLM out
West. Moving the BLM out West has made it easier for Montanans
to connect with the agency that manages large areas of land in
our state and it is nice to have them in the same time zone. On
March 10th of last year, you said that the Department of the
Interior was attempting to dismantle the Bureau of Land
Management by moving the headquarters to Colorado. Why do you
believe that moving the BLM headquarters to Grand Junction was
so wrong?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, at the time, I heard from a lot of
different Indian Tribes, quite frankly, who were upset about
that issue. Now that the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management
office is moved to Grand Junction--and additionally I know a
lot of career staff left the Bureau because of that, they
didn't want to move. I think that we need to first consider the
well-being of the career staff there and take a good look at
the issue. I don't have any intention at this moment of
changing things, but I am not there yet. If I'm confirmed, that
will be an important issue to look at.
Senator Daines. So at this point then, is your sense you
would keep the headquarters there in Colorado? I know Senator
Hickenlooper probably wanted to ask that question. I will ask
it for him for the folks in Colorado.
Ms. Haaland. He has spoken with me regarding that issue a
few times. Thank you.
Senator Daines. I want to ask about some multiple-use
questions. It is very important to our public lands in Montana
and across the West. Would you commit to a ``no net loss'' of
timber harvest on public lands?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I don't think I can commit to
anything at this moment. I am not confirmed, but if I am
confirmed, I appreciate knowing and understanding your concern
in that area and would be more than happy to continue a
conversation with you.
Senator Daines. Regarding no net loss, what about grazing
permits? Would you commit to no net loss of grazing permits?
Ms. Haaland. Again Senator, I would be more than happy--I
mentioned earlier in the hearing that I understand how
important grazing is to a lot of ranchers in this country and I
would be happy to----
Senator Daines. They are very concerned. They really are,
as well as my, you know, many of our men and women who embrace
the outdoors and shooting sports. Would you commit to no net
loss of hunting and trapping opportunities?
Ms. Haaland. I support hunting and fishing and I support
the outdoor economy. I think it's important to our country.
Senator Daines. Would you commit to no net loss of it? The
concern is losing it, losing it on a net basis. If you look at
it, there is a lot of concern right now about some of the, you
know, your prior statements and what that might mean to policy
outcomes and ultimately net loss of hunting and trapping
opportunities.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, I understand and I promise you that I
will talk with you. I will do my best to make sure that those
folks have opportunities to have their voices heard.
Senator Daines. Senator Barrasso, can I ask one more
question? You okay on time? Thank you.
If you would put up Chart number 4.
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Senator Daines. Representative Haaland, I appreciate your
patience with all the questions you are receiving here and I
thank you----
Ms. Haaland. Of course.
Senator Daines [continuing]. Thank you for your answers.
During our meeting when I asked you about active forest
management you responded that NEPA comment periods needed to be
longer. And behind me is a map of a forest project that was
proposed by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, a great wildlife
conservation organization headquartered in Missoula, Montana.
Half of the project area burned because it was delayed by
litigation. It was, in fact, it burned while it was in the
middle of that delay. Do you really believe that extending the
NEPA comment period is the best way to increase the scale and
the scope of active forest management?
Ms. Haaland. I'm not saying that extending is the best way.
During our conversation, Senator, I think I was referring to
the idea of public comment periods with respect to, for
example, areas in my state where folks don't have access to
internet, for example. They were taking comments only on the
internet and if you don't have internet and if you don't have
computers, it's difficult to make your voice heard. I think
what we need to do is make sure that folks have opportunities
and a means to weigh in when these issues are important to
them. I'm not sure if lengthening the process is the answer,
but certainly make sure that the public comment periods are
real.
Senator Daines. When we look at----
Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Senator, I have Senator
Murkowski and we promised----
Senator Daines. Oh.
Senator Barrasso [continuing]. The nominee she would be
done at about noon so that----
Senator Daines. Thank you. I will yield to Senator
Murkowski or the Chairman. Thanks.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you,
Senator Daines. Hopefully I will ask a question that will work
for you as well. Representative Haaland, again, thank you for
your endurance here on day two.
You, in response to Senator Hyde-Smith, when talking about
the issue of affordability--this is a matter that is of extreme
interest to me. Of course, we come from one of the highest-cost
energy states in the country in terms of the rates that people
pay for their power to keep warm in a cold place. And so this
is very personal. And your story about your grandmother not
receiving power and water to her community until the mid-'70s
is something that, as you know, we still live in far too many
of our villages, primarily Alaska Native villages and one of
the bright spots, certainly for those in the North Slope
communities, is that with oil those families have been able to
not only heat their homes, but to do so in a way that is more
affordable to not only have the basics that we would understand
in terms of staying warm and having water, but also the
benefits of a public safety system, the benefits of
transportation access, the benefits of schooling.
And so I just ask you, as you look to the realities of
American energy and how people are situated, that some of our
most vulnerable in this country--the energy vulnerability is a
very real question, a very real issue. And so how we can help
with jobs and also making this critical component of people's
lives available to them. Sometimes our reality is that it is
not the energy solution to have solar in Utqiagvik, but the
opportunities that present themselves with natural gas, with
the base resource that we have up there, is something that I
just ask you to be understanding of them and their situation.
I want to raise also the situation with many of our remote
communities, primarily Alaska Native villages that are reliant
on so many of these policies that are in play right now. Many
in this Committee have heard me speak at length about the
community of King Cove, a small community of 800 people out in
Southwest Alaska, cut off from a major runway that can allow
them an opportunity to get their people to safety when weather
shuts them in, on average, 100 days a year. In 2013, the
Secretary of the Interior turned her back on those people and
said that somebody needed to be thinking about the birds. In
the meantime, those people in King Cove have endured over 100
medevacs since the time that that lifesaving, ten-mile, one-
lane, gravel, non-commercial use road was denied. And our Coast
Guard has been called in for multiple medevacs to get these
people to safety. So I am going to ask you if you will commit
to, at a bare minimum, meeting with the people of King Cove to
discuss their plight and to hear their concerns and do this, if
you are confirmed, very early within your tenure.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, absolutely. Thank you.
Senator Murkowski. Okay.
Ms. Haaland. And thank you for sending me your memo. I took
the liberty of reading more about the issues in King Cove. As
you know, I feel very strongly that everybody deserves to have
medical attention when they need it and I appreciate you caring
so much about the people there.
Senator Murkowski. Well, I am passionate about them. I am
also passionate about our Alaska Native veterans who have not
yet received entitlement to their native allotments. We passed
the bill last year to help allow for that processing, but until
we can get these PLOs--the public land orders--withdrawn so
that there is an availability of selection, they are being
denied their entitlement to their land, their allotments and
that is, again, something that I am very passionate about and
would hope that you would understand there.
My time is almost expired, but let me raise the issue that
was just shared on the 30 by 30 and your commitment. Our
reality is that we have already met the 30 percent in terms of
our lands and waters in conservation status. Sixty-six percent
of all National Park Service lands in the country are in
Alaska. Twenty-nine percent of all BLM lands in the country are
in Alaska. Twenty-five and a half percent of all Fish and
Wildlife Service lands in the country are in Alaska. Twelve
percent of all Forest Service lands in the country are in
Alaska.
We have, as you know, ANILCA, the Alaska National Interest
Land Conservation Act, which pretty much established all that I
have shared with you, or a good bulk of it, but our reality was
the deal at that time in 1980 was we have enough in
conservation status in Alaska. We are doing more than our
share--more, and we are happy. We love our parks. We love the
opportunities that we have on our lands, but we also believed
very much in the commitment that the Federal Government made
with ANILCA that the ``no more'' clause meant ``no more.'' And
so that is something that, as we look at this 30/30 provision
and the direction that President Biden is advancing under this
Executive Order, it causes us some degree of alarm because we
have received no assurance that ANILCA, as we understand it and
as was agreed, will be respected as this Administration is
looking to put yet more lands and waters in conservation
status.
So I don't know if you would care to comment about that,
but that, again, is a very, very important matter to us.
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you so much. I appreciate
everything that you do for your state and I look so forward to
working with you. I promise you I will follow the law. I know
how important these issues are to you and to the people in your
state and I look forward to----
Senator Murkowski. So you would agree that with ANILCA and
the ``no more'' clause, that is the law, that what we have in
conservation status will not be impacted by this 30 by 30
initiative?
Ms. Haaland. I look forward, as I mentioned earlier, I
don't know what that full initiative looks like, but I
absolutely respect everything that you have said and I
appreciate it and look forward to working with you and that I
will absolutely follow the law and thank you, Senator
Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Murkowski.
Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. I do not think I have any more questions,
if we want to wrap up.
Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
Senator Marshall, do you have a final wrapping question?
Senator Marshall. Just one.
Senator Barrasso. Please proceed.
Senator Marshall. Okay. Again, if you have not been able to
tell yet, I am passionate about the great outdoors--fishing and
hunting, hiking, boating, and I want to make sure that my
grandchildren have that same opportunity. The greatest memories
of my life are times in the outdoors.
Are you familiar with the Pittman-Robertson Act? It's where
fisherman and hunters put our money where our mouth is.
Ms. Haaland. Yes, yes, I believe I am.
Senator Marshall. So again, from my experience on the
Wildlife and Parks board I got to see where that money was
used, but it is an 11 percent excise tax on guns, ammunition,
and fishing equipment and, in my humble opinion, I think the
states do a great job of figuring out how to spend that money.
Any thoughts on how you think that money should be used or not
used?
Ms. Haaland. Well, what I will say is you hit the nail on
the head every time, Senator, when you say that the local
folks, the states should weigh in on these issues and I agree
with you on everything that you have brought up today and
certainly the fact that we want your grandkids to have those
opportunities as well.
So I want to rely on you to bring your ideas forward and
anyway I can help, of course, I am happy to.
Senator Marshall. Great. Do I get one more or do we need to
wrap up?
Senator Barrasso. Go ahead.
Senator Heinrich [presiding]. Go right ahead.
Senator Marshall. Oh, okay.
I guess the last point I want to make is as we think about
government policies, its impact on that single mom that I have
been delivering the last 20 or 25 years, and the price of
gasoline and the cost of electricity is so important to them.
And our ecology, our environment, obviously important to me as
well, but as I noticed as a private obstetrician, whenever the
price of gasoline got over $3.00 a gallon and that was just--I
was looking back through some notes--2015, I noticed that those
moms would stop coming to their OB appointments. Many of my
patients drive 30, 60, 90, 120 miles. So that is how, in my
life, I would see the price of gasoline impact people. And I
think the same impact is overly felt by hard-working Americans
who live paycheck-to-paycheck on their electricity bill as
well.
Are you concerned at all about some of the policies you
have described, what it is going to do to the cost of gasoline
at the pump and the cost of electricity for these folks at
home?
Ms. Haaland. Senator, thank you for raising that and that
happens a tremendous amount in my State of New Mexico, where
we're largely rural. There is only one veterans' hospital in
the whole state and folks do have to drive a very long way and
that's one of the reasons why I have been so supportive of
ensuring that broadband internet is a human right because I
know that telehealth is a way to help a lot of folks with those
issues. And we have seen that during this pandemic. If folks
would have had those opportunities, things would be different.
I just want to say one thing. I'd love for you to look at,
because you're a doctor, the ECHO program. It was started by
Dr. Sanjeev Arora, in my State of New Mexico, and I think you
would find that a very interesting and beneficial program to
our country. It's helped a whole lot of people and you can
expand it in various and sundry ways. And I think you'd be
interested to learn about that.
Senator Marshall. I would be honored. Thank you and I yield
back.
Senator Heinrich. I will actually put a little packet
together on project ECHO because I think our new member on the
Committee, and especially being a physician, will find it
really interesting, and maybe even a great place where we can
all work together.
Thank you all for being part of this hearing today, and I
think the hearing is closed.
Senator Barrasso. If I could just add, members have until
6:00 p.m. tonight to submit additional questions for the
record.
And I would like to thank you as well and I appreciate you
being here both with us yesterday and today.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you very much, Ranking Member
Barrasso.
[Whereupon, at 12:19 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]
[Additional material submitted for the record for Day 1 and
for Day 2 follows:]
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