    [Senate Hearing 117-105]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 117-105

                              GRANHOLM NOMINATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                       TO

                  CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF THE HONORABLE JENNIFER M.
                         GRANHOLM TO BE THE SECRETARY OF ENERGY

                                   __________

                                JANUARY 27, 2021

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    43-819 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                               (116th Congress)

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    CORY GARDNER, Colordao               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                          Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                          Lucy Murfitt, Chief Counsel
                     Renae Black, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                         Darla Ripchensky, Chief Clerk

                      (117th Congress) \1\,\2\

                    JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia,Chairman
    RON WYDEN, Oregon                    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
    MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
    BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             MIKE LEE, Utah
    MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico          STEVE DAINES, Montana
    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
    ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine            JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
    CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada       JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
    MARK KELLY, Arizona                  BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
    JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado       CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
                                         ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                          Renae Black, Staff Director
                          Sam E. Fowler, Chief Counsel
                 Richard M. Russell, Republican Staff Director
                  Matthew H. Leggett, Republican Chief Counsel
                         Darla Ripchensky, Chief Clerk

    ----------
    \1\  S. Res. 28, the majority party's membership on certain committees
    for the One Hundred Seventeenth Congress, or until their successors are
    chosen, was passed on February 3, 2021.
    \2\  S. Res. 32, the minority party's membership on certain committees
    for the One Hundred Seventeenth Congress, or until their successors are
    chosen, was passed on February 3, 2021.

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska....     1
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Incoming Chairman and a U.S. Senator from
      West Virginia..................................................     2
    Barrasso, Hon. John, Incoming Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator
      from Wyoming...................................................     4

                                   WITNESSES

    Stabenow, Hon. Debbie, a U.S. Senator from Michigan..............     6
    Upton, Hon. Fred, a U.S. Representative from Michigan............     7
    Granholm, Hon. Jennifer M., nominated to be the Secretary of
      Energy.........................................................     9

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Barrasso, Hon. John:
        Opening Statement............................................     4
    Casha, Jim:
        Letter for the Record........................................   118
    Chamber of Commerce of the United States of America:
        Letter for the Record........................................   122
    Granholm, Hon. Jennifer M.:
        Opening Statement............................................     9
        Written Testimony............................................    11
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    50
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
        Opening Statement............................................     2
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
    Stabenow, Hon. Debbie:
        Introduction.................................................     6
    Upton, Hon. Fred:
        Introduction.................................................     7

                              GRANHOLM NOMINATION

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 27, 2021

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:40 a.m. in Room
    SD-106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

        The Chairman. The Committee will come to order as we meet
    to consider the nomination of the Honorable Jennifer Granholm,
    the former Governor of Michigan, to be our next Secretary of
    Energy. I will say, as I am starting off the hearing, I am glad
    that I have good eyesight because you are a long way away. But
    welcome to the Committee and those who are joining us
    virtually.
        This is our Committee's first hearing in the new Congress.
    My gaveling in this morning is perhaps a little bit unexpected
    as the Senate leaders are finalizing and organizing a
    resolution. I am still Chairman, perhaps on a technicality
    here, but I will be handing the gavel over to Senator Manchin
    in just a few moments. Before I do, I want to just make a
    couple comments.
        First, I want to reiterate what an honor, what a privilege,
    what a pleasure it has been to chair this Committee. I think we
    recognize that we accomplished a great deal for our country and
    we did it in a way that, I think, demonstrates the best of the
    Senate. We did it in a collegial way, we did it with a
    bipartisan approach and we did it on issues that are sometimes
    difficult, but we worked things through the Committee. We
    worked with our staffs and I want to thank members on both
    sides. I want to thank staffs who worked hard with us, and I
    also want to recognize those who are no longer serving on the
    Committee with us for all that they did to help make sure that
    good results were going to be possible coming from this
    Committee.
        Second, I want to offer my congratulations and my best
    wishes to the gentlemen on either side of me here this morning,
    both of whom are set to assume new roles here. Senator Manchin
    has been a true partner over the past couple of years. You
    know, Joe, I never really thought of you so much as my Ranking
    Member but as more of a co-pilot here. I have great confidence
    in you and your approach on these important and significant
    energy issues, and I have truly appreciated and valued the
    relationship that I have had with you as a Ranking as I did
    with Senator Wyden, as we were teaming, and Senator Cantwell as
    well. I have been truly privileged in the leadership role that
    I have had on this Committee, both as Ranking and as Chairman,
    and I appreciate that.
        Senator Barrasso is going to be our new Ranking Member. If
    there are those here in the Senate that I look to and I call my
    good friend, John Barrasso is my good friend and an
    extraordinary colleague. I know that the Republican side of ENR
    is going to be well, well taken care of in your excellent
    hands. So I am pleased that you are in this role and in this
    position.
        You know, I think we recognize that in these roles you
    can't pick your counterparts, you can't pick your successors
    and sometimes it is the luck of the draw, sometimes you may
    look at it and say, man, that is going to be a headache.
        [Laughter.]
        But I do feel very, very fortunate to have been able to
    work with some extraordinary leaders on this Committee and look
    forward to the leadership that you two will provide in this
    117th Congress.
        I have plenty to say about today's hearing, but I am going
    to simply welcome Governor Granholm at this moment. I will
    reserve my statement until later on, but at this point I will
    turn to Senator Manchin for his statement. Congratulations,
    again, Senator Manchin, very soon, officially to be Chairman
    Manchin from the great State of West Virginia.
        What do you say? The little state?
        Senator Manchin. No, no, no, nothing about little.
        [Laughter.]
        Great state works.
        The Chairman. All right.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Manchin.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Manchin. We have all got great states, right, John?
        The Chairman. We do.
        Senator Manchin. The great State of Wyoming, Oregon,
    Michigan, Washington, Vermont, and New Mexico. We have the
    South. The South is well represented, and we just have a great
    staff. It is a great Committee and it is great on both sides of
    the Congress.
        I want to thank you again, Madam Chairman. I am very
    grateful for your courtesy in allowing me to preside this
    morning, even though it is still not official. We understand
    that changes are coming very quickly, and it is one more
    example of the kindness and consideration that you have always
    shown me, the grace in which you have led this Committee, and I
    am very grateful for that.
        I would like all of us to take a moment to thank our
    Chairman--Chairwoman, if you would--for the great service to
    this Committee. There have only been two Republicans that have
    served as long as Senator Murkowski has. In the past six years,
    she has been the Chair--she served six years as Ranking Member
    before that, and one other person who did that was her father,
    Senator Frank Murkowski. So she has kept right up with dad and
    I would say that maybe, I think--it is a very competitive
    family. She thinks she has beat him a few times on things. But
    anyway, we have been extremely productive in this Committee
    because of your leadership, and I thank you for that.
        We were able to enact not only the first Omnibus Public
    Lands bill in five years but also the first Omnibus Energy bill
    in 13 years, and provided mandatory funding for the Land and
    Water Conservation Fund, and maintenance on public lands.
    Enacting any of those would have been a mammoth undertaking. We
    did it in one Congress. It was a combination of the hard work
    of then-Chairman Wyden, then-Chairman Cantwell from the State
    of Washington, and everyone working together on this, and also,
    the Ranking Members you have had.
        As Chairman, I look forward to carrying on the Committee's
    longstanding bipartisanship tradition and ensuring the nation's
    energy security and the wise use of our natural resources. Even
    though both Senator Barrasso and I must wait for the Senate to
    adopt the organizing resolution before we officially assume our
    new roles, the Committee's obligation to do the public's
    business does continue. John and I have been able to meet, and
    the staffs have been getting acquainted. It is going to be a
    really good transition. You have set a good example for all of
    us to follow. So I am grateful to you, Senator Murkowski, for
    convening this hearing this morning to consider the nomination
    of my friend, Governor Jennifer Granholm, to be the nation's
    16th Secretary of Energy.
        Welcome, Governor Granholm, to you and to your husband,
    Dan. I know you very well and have the pleasure of having a
    great relationship with you, as we were governors together. We
    have traveled together, and your willingness to serve our
    country in a higher capacity is just wonderful.
        Congress created the Office of the Secretary 44 years ago
    at a time of crisis when the nation faced severe energy
    shortages and disruptions. The idea was to consolidate the
    Federal Government's energy functions in the Secretary's hands
    so that she could ensure the effective management and
    administration of the nation's energy policies and programs.
    But the job is even bigger than that. The Secretary is
    responsible for overseeing the nation's nuclear arsenal and
    ensuring that our nuclear deterrent remains secure and
    effective. You will be responsible for making the fuel that
    propels the nuclear navy in guarding our nation against nuclear
    proliferation. You must also manage the world's most
    challenging environmental cleanup at Hanford and at the Cold
    War nuclear sites, and oversee our four Power Marketing
    Administrations (PMAs) which supply electricity and federal
    dams to customers in 34 states. You will be responsible for
    leading the world's premier science and technology enterprises,
    the 17 national laboratories we depend on for the scientific
    discoveries and technology innovations that we need to meet our
    energy needs here, and to keep America strong and secure.
        I am delighted that President Biden has nominated you,
    Governor Granholm, for this important position. I know you and
    your family. We served as governors, as I have said before. You
    served two terms as Governor of Michigan during an especially
    challenging time, which I know Senator Stabenow knows very well
    and remembers very well, in your state's history as it
    weathered the Great Recession and the collapse of the auto
    industry. You were up to that challenge. You helped save the
    auto industry. You diversified Michigan's economy, brought in
    new investment and new industries, and created new jobs.
    Governor Granholm demonstrated in Michigan the vision and
    leadership that we need to tackle the challenges that we now
    face at a national level, including tackling climate change,
    while ensuring no worker is left behind and our energy security
    remains uncompromised. We are very fortunate to have such a
    well-qualified and talented nominee for the important position
    of Secretary of Energy.
        I wholeheartedly support your nomination and am very
    pleased to welcome you to our Committee.
        I would like to recognize Senator Barrasso and Stabenow at
    this point. So, Senator Barrasso, for your opening statement.

                   STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Chairman
    Murkowski and Chairman Manchin. I want to thank you both for
    your leadership of this Committee last Congress--for the
    productivity, partnership, the friendship and how we all work
    so closely together. But it was under the leadership of the two
    of you that really made it all happen, the successful passage
    of legislation and we had, what, 37 separate Senate bills that
    are going to work together to boost advanced nuclear power,
    carbon capture technologies, energy storage, critical minerals,
    renewables, many other energy sources that might have not been
    possible had it not been for the combined work of the two of
    you to make sure that all of the Committee worked together. And
    Chairman Murkowski, you have such a strong history and
    tradition of leading this Committee so well.
        Senator Manchin mentioned your father had the gavel. I
    think it was, is it that gavel? Well, you better not pass that
    one along. That belongs in a museum somewhere in Alaska. But I
    will tell you, your father could not have done what you have
    done. We are just so wonderfully proud of the job of this
    Committee in the bipartisan way you have done it, and you have
    made all of us proud and Alaska proud. We are grateful for your
    leadership of the Committee.
        I am hoping to follow in your footsteps. You have been on
    this Committee since 2002 and lead the Republicans since 2009.
    Thank you for the way you have led the Committee. Over the
    years we have all had the opportunity to travel together in a
    bipartisan way to remote areas, to take a look at what was
    happening with changing climate in some of the most remote
    locations in Alaska. We have been to Greenland together, to
    Svalbard, to Northern Norway, all looking at issues related to
    climate. Senator Cantwell has joined us on those along with
    Senator Whitehouse, and we are going to continue in that way in
    the future--working together in a bipartisan way in addressing
    the major issues.
        So I want to continue the partnership that you have had
    with Senator Manchin, to work closely with him. We met
    yesterday. We are going to continue working in a very
    productive way, because energy is the lifeblood not just of
    Alaska but also of Wyoming and of West Virginia, and in working
    together we can achieve goals in the Committee.
        I do want to thank and congratulate and welcome Governor
    Granholm to the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee.
    Our nation's energy production benefits every American whether
    it is power generation from coal, from natural gas, uranium,
    water, sun, wind, American energy keeps the lights on in our
    schools, in our businesses, in our homes. It powers our
    vehicles, our cars and trucks and it helps grow the economy.
    The future of American energy is ingenuity, investment,
    invention, and innovation. I think this is something that both
    parties and everyone up here at the dais agrees on. Recently
    Republicans and Democrats worked together to enact laws that
    promote carbon capture technology, support advanced nuclear
    reactors, provide for more efficient diesel engines and prevent
    greenhouse gas emissions from air conditioners. These laws are
    going to pay significant dividends toward reducing greenhouse
    gas emissions. The end result is cleaner air and lower costs
    for the American people.
        So I look forward to working with Chairman Manchin and
    members of the Committee to build on this bipartisan record.
    The country is stronger when we do work together. Likewise, I
    am ready to work with the Biden Administration to make American
    energy as clean as we can, as fast as we can, without killing
    jobs or raising costs on American consumers. The work begins
    today as the Committee considers the nomination to serve as
    Secretary of Energy, and we have a long and distinguished
    history. You and I have had a chance to visit about that and
    Senator Manchin has mentioned your long history in energy and
    as Governor.
        The Department of Energy oversees the United States' energy
    supply. It is also responsible for carrying out the
    environmental cleanup for Cold War nuclear missions, managing
    17 national laboratories, among other responsibilities. The
    Department plays a critical role in keeping American energy and
    keeping us energy dominant. American energy dominance enables
    energy security, economic strength and environmental
    stewardship. I always talk about the three E's of energy which
    is just that, energy security, economic strength and
    environmental stewardship. Energy is called the master resource
    for a reason. It powers our nation, our military, our economy.
    It is an instrument of power, it is a force multiplier, and it
    can be used as a weapon of geopolitics. Our nation is an energy
    superpower, and I believe we need to continue to act like one.
        Much of our nation's energy comes from my home State of
    Wyoming, America's leading energy producer. Wyoming produces
    coal, oil, natural gas, and uranium. It also has incredible
    renewables. We are the world wind capital in so many ways. We
    have world class wind and large wind farms. It also has among
    the largest reserves of energy resources in the country. We
    produce 15 times more energy than we use in our state, and it
    is the biggest net energy supplier among all the states. So
    energy production is the economic lifeblood of my state. Energy
    creates good paying jobs for the people of Wyoming. It provides
    a critical resource of revenue for the state. The incoming
    Administration should not devastate our economy by implementing
    policies that undermine energy production. The last democratic
    administration went on a regulatory rampage to slow or stop
    energy production. I am not going to sit idly by, or my
    colleagues, if the Biden Administration enforces policies that
    threaten Wyoming's economy and the lifeblood of so many people
    in my home state. That is why I find some of Governor
    Granholm's past statements and executive actions troubling.
        In 2016 during a public event, the nominee stated, ``We
    ought to do everything possible we can to keep fossil fuel
    energy in the ground.'' That makes no sense for America or for
    Michigan. In 2019, 62 percent of Michigan's electricity
    generation came from coal and natural gas sources. The bottom
    line is the United States will need fossil fuels well into the
    future. Coal, oil, and natural gas are not going away, and
    America should not leave these assets stranded in the ground. I
    believe shutting down American coal, oil, and natural gas
    production will only shut down our country's economy. If you
    want skyrocketing energy costs and high unemployment, that is
    how you do it. America needs a broad energy mix--it includes
    renewable sources, nuclear power and yes, traditional fuels--
    coal, oil, and natural gas.
        Traditional fuel powers three out of five American homes
    and three out of five American businesses; however, 95 percent
    of Americans' transportation. If the Biden Administration's
    nominees intend to block these critical energy sources, then I
    can't support them or that. We need to find ways to make
    expensive energy more affordable. The Biden Administration
    should not insist, as it seems to be doing, on making
    affordable energy more expensive. As the Governor addresses
    this, we want to make the Department of Energy successful. It
    is critical that today you have an opportunity to find your
    views and demonstrate that you are dedicated to all forms of
    American energy and expanding America's energy security.
        So this hearing gives us an opportunity to hear directly
    from the nominee, Governor Granholm, and for her to provide
    more clarity regarding her views, her actions as Governor and
    her visions for the Department of Energy, and I look forward to
    the testimony.
        Senator Manchin. Also, we are privileged today to have our
    colleague, Senator Stabenow, and then also Representative
    Upton, to do the introduction for Governor Granholm.
        Senator Stabenow.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. DEBBIE STABENOW,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN

        Senator Stabenow. Well, thank you very much, incoming Chair
    Manchin. I want to first just lend my voice and thank our
    wonderful Chairwoman. Senator Murkowski has really led us
    through some very important times and important
    accomplishments, and I congratulate you on not only the
    accomplishments, but the way in which you lead, and especially
    in situations where we worked together, tirelessly, to find a
    way to help the people of Flint. I appreciate very much your
    partnership in that and your willingness to work hard for us to
    work through what we needed to do to help people in the lead
    water crisis in Flint. So thank you, and I am looking forward
    to working with our incoming Chair and Ranking Member. I
    appreciate all three of you today, even though the organizing
    resolution is not official, working together. This is typical
    of the bipartisanship on the Committee and of your leadership,
    Madam Chair. So, thank you, again.
        It is really my honor today to introduce my friend and the
    former Governor of Michigan, and with your support, our new
    Secretary of Energy, Jennifer Granholm. And as always, her
    partner in life, Dan, is by her side. It is wonderful to see
    you, Dan, and we welcome you to the Committee as well.
        Right now, our nation faces a whole host of challenges,
    from getting this pandemic under control, to building back the
    economy and our middle class, to updating our infrastructure
    for our clean energy future, to taking steps to solve a climate
    crisis. These are big challenges, and big challenges require
    big solutions. That is why Governor Jennifer Granholm is such a
    great fit to lead the Department of Energy. Governor Granholm
    knows how to meet big challenges because she has done it
    before. In addition, I should say, first, during the Great
    Recession, Governor Granholm's leadership helped rescue the
    U.S. auto industry and save one million auto jobs. In addition,
    she helped then-Vice President Biden implement a recovery plan
    that sparked a clean energy jobs boom to diversify Michigan's
    economy and made our state a leader in clean energy jobs.
        We need more of that right now, and I cannot think of
    anyone better suited to make that happen than Governor
    Granholm. She knows how a good job can change a family's
    future, because she lived it. Her own parents moved to America
    from Canada in search of better jobs and a brighter future.
    Better jobs and a brighter future, that is what Americans need
    right now. We can invest in clean energy and create millions of
    good paying jobs right here at home in America. We can grow a
    stronger, more inclusive middle class from coast to coast and
    in every community in between. We can put our national labs and
    our user facilities, including Michigan's own facility for rare
    isotope beams, to work solving our nation's toughest challenges
    and unlocking the secrets of the universe. And we can take real
    action to address the climate crisis, an issue that is already
    harming Michigan's Great Lakes, our economy, and our people.
        I have heard it said that the Department of Energy really
    could be called the Department of Science and Technology, and I
    know few people who are more passionate about the possibilities
    of science and technology than Governor Jennifer Granholm. I
    look forward to supporting her nomination enthusiastically, and
    I am excited about the new Michigan energy she will bring to
    the Department of Energy. So I am honored to introduce Governor
    Granholm and join with my colleague in the House, Congressman
    Fred Upton, in doing so.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Stabenow.
        And now we have Congressman Upton for his introduction.
        Congressman Upton.

                     STATEMENT OF HON. FRED UPTON,
                          U.S. REPRESENTATIVE

        Mr. Upton. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a delight to
    join my colleague from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow, but also with
    you, with Lisa Murkowski, John Barrasso. I've been to Svalbard
    too. But so many friends that previously served on the Energy
    and Commerce Committee in the House.
        You know, during my time in the House I've been glad to
    work with Energy Secretaries from both Republican and
    Democratic administrations whether it was Bodman or Chu, Moniz,
    Perry, Brouillette, or Michigan's own Spence Abraham. I could
    always pick up the phone and call them regardless of party or
    whether we agreed on the particular issue that it was about. I
    also know that I've got that same relationship with Secretary
    Granholm to be, Governor Granholm, when she is, in fact,
    confirmed by your body.
        You know, when she was Governor of Michigan, Jennifer and I
    worked on a number of things important to both Southwest
    Michigan, but our state as a whole. Those of us from Michigan
    know the immense importance of the Great Lakes, both from the
    environmental and the economic standpoint. My district is on
    Lake Michigan and I can name dozens of times where we worked
    together on issues ranging from lake cleanup to beach erosion,
    harbor dredging, keeping that awful Asian carp out of our lake.
    But we also worked hand in glove on Harbor Shores project which
    has helped me to turn Benton Harbor from a distressed community
    with a history of racial strife into a real tourist
    destination.
        I look forward to continuing that relationship with her as
    Secretary of high capacity as the Republican leader of the
    Energy Subcommittee in the House. Our nation is certainly
    facing a number of very pressing issues in its energy sector.
    We need to ensure policies that continue down the path of a
    clean energy economy while ensuring an all-of-the-above
    approach, fosters innovation, provides a reliable and
    affordable energy supply. I also look forward to continuing to
    work with Jennifer and the new Administration in establishing a
    permanent repository for spent nuclear fuel so we can finally
    get this stuff off the shores of Lake Michigan. We also need to
    do all that we can to prevent cyberattacks on our nation's
    grid.
        And Joe, as you mentioned, she and I worked with John
    Dingle, with Dave Camp, John Boehner, Debbie Stabenow, Gary
    Peters in both the Obama and Bush Administrations in a
    bipartisan way to rescue the auto industry. So important, not
    only for Michigan but for the entire nation as well. You know,
    we might not always agree on how we can achieve these goals,
    but I know and I'm confident that our previous experience and
    partnership will, in fact, allow us to have an open line of
    communication so that we can work together to solve these very
    important issues.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my
    time. Thank you for letting me be present for this very
    important confirmation hearing.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Congressman. We appreciate it
    very much.
        With that, Governor Granholm, if you would stand, please.
    We have applied to all nominees a requirement that they be
    sworn in in connection with their testimony.
        If you would, please raise your right hand.
        Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
    give to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
    shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
        Ms. Granholm. I do.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you. You may be seated.
        Before you begin your statement, I am going to ask three
    questions addressed to each nominee before this Committee.
        My first is, will you be available to appear before this
    Committee and other Congressional committees to represent
    departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the
    Congress?
        Ms. Granholm. I will.
        Senator Manchin. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
    investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
    interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should
    you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
    nominated by the President?
        Ms. Granholm. There are no conflicts, and I have abided by
    the Office of Government Ethics' direction.
        Senator Manchin. Good.
        Are you involved or do you have any assets held in a blind
    trust?
        Ms. Granholm. No.
        Senator Manchin. You may begin your statement.
        Ms. Granholm. Great.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.

      STATEMENT OF HON. JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, NOMINATED TO BE THE
                          SECRETARY OF ENERGY

        Ms. Granholm. Thank you so much, Chairman Murkowski----
        Senator Manchin. I am sorry, you can introduce your family
    with you here too.
        Ms. Granholm. I will.
        Senator Manchin. Okay.
        Ms. Granholm. As part of my statement, but this, yes, is
    Dan Mulhern, my great spouse, partner, best friend, et cetera.
        Chairman Murkowski and Ranking Member Manchin, soon to be
    Chairman, and soon to be Ranking Member Barrasso and
    distinguished members of the Committee, thank you so much for
    holding this Committee hearing so expeditiously. And I'd like
    to begin by thanking Senator Stabenow and Congressman Upton for
    their gracious words. Senator Stabenow has been an ally as we
    have navigated the struggles of the recession, and Michigan is
    indeed fortunate to have such an incredibly hard working and
    indefatigable senior senator. And Congressman Upton, thank you
    for your words of bipartisanship. I have thoroughly enjoyed
    working with you over the years and here, too, the people of
    West Michigan are lucky to have a man of Fred Upton's integrity
    and intelligence looking out for them.
        I introduced my husband, who I want to thank from the
    bottom of my heart for his love and support as I pursue public
    service again.
        Just a little about me. As Senator Stabenow mentioned, I
    was brought to this country from Canada at four years old by
    parents seeking economic opportunity. And as I mentioned when I
    was nominated, my parents both only had high school degrees. My
    dad was born into dire poverty in a cabin with no running water
    in a rural part of Canada. My dad's father shot and killed
    himself out of desperation during the Great Depression, because
    he couldn't find work for himself to support my grandmother and
    their three children. My dad was three years old at the time.
    So I bring to this role the sincere belief that we, in America,
    cannot leave our people behind.
        I'd like to share a bit about the focus that I will bring
    to the Department of Energy, if I'm confirmed. I'll focus on,
    DOE does a huge number of things, but I want to talk about
    three missions. First is the security of America through the
    National Security--Nuclear Security Administration and the
    cleanup of that Cold War legacy, ensuring that we can protect
    our nation. Second, supporting the amazing, amazing scientific
    work that's being done at the DOE's 17 national laboratories
    and other facilities across the country, including on climate
    change and emissions reductions. And third, taking that
    research to scale, deploying it, to create jobs for Americans.
    And it's that last point that I want to pause on for a moment
    because I believe I was nominated by President Biden because I
    am obsessed with creating good paying jobs in America. Having
    been the Governor of Michigan when the automotive industry was
    on its knees, I understand what it's like to look into the eyes
    of men and women who have lost their jobs through no fault of
    their own. Michigan is a place where workers could have a house
    and two cars and enough left over to take their family on a
    vacation, to a cottage on a lake up north, all because they had
    a good job in a factory and then the bottom dropped out.
        The recession and the auto bankruptcies hit and at that
    time our unemployment rate was the highest in the nation. In
    Detroit it was 25 percent. And because we had such an auto-
    dependent state, I knew we had to diversify, both inside the
    auto industry and outside the auto industry. When I say inside,
    I mean we built car 1.0. We had to build 2.0, the electric
    vehicle, including the guts to that vehicle which is the
    battery and diversifying outside the auto industry we had to
    create new jobs in new sectors and the most promising of those
    sectors was in clean energy. And so, we went to work. And
    today, one-third of all North American battery production is in
    Michigan. Michigan is one of the top five states for clean
    energy patents and 126,000 Michiganders were working in the
    clean energy sector before COVID-19 hit.
        This is a sector that every single state can benefit from.
    The products that reduce carbon emissions are going to create a
    $23 trillion global market by 2030. That is a massive
    opportunity. So we can buy electric car batteries from Asia or
    we can make them in America. We can install wind turbines from
    Denmark or we can make them in America. We can allow other
    countries to corner the market on carbon reduction technologies
    like carbon capture, utilization and storage or we can put our
    workers in good paying jobs manufacturing and installing those
    solutions in America, and we can export them all as well.
        So, in talking with you all, thank you so much for the
    conversations we've had, Democrats and Republicans. I know that
    you share the belief of making energy in America and, if
    confirmed, I look forward to working with you to bring good
    paying jobs to every state and to make sure that no worker gets
    left behind.
        I'm happy to take your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Granholm follows:]
        [[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Governor.
        Normally, the Chairman is entitled to ask the first
    questions, but since Senator Murkowski is still our Chair, I
    wanted to make sure that she asks our first questions. Senator
    Murkowski.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want all the
    Committee members to continue to enjoy the fine, clear Alaskan
    glacier water that we have been providing the Committee for the
    past couple years. I think we might have some leftovers you can
    use.
        Senator Manchin. I hope so.
        The Chairman. Governor Granholm, thank you for being before
    the Committee. Thank you for the time that you have given me on
    the phone. I hope these first questions will be pretty easy,
    pretty direct.
        In all of the opportunities that I have to discuss with
    nominees before any president's cabinet, I ask them about the
    Arctic because this is an area that, I think, has been
    overlooked for far too long. My colleagues have noted that I
    have invited them on some opportunities to see what goes on in
    the Arctic and to determine then and understand for themselves
    America's role in the Arctic. In recent years, Alaska and the
    Department of Energy worked together to advance energy security
    in the Arctic. Last year we got funding to revive this Arctic
    Energy Office that I shared with you. This is going to be a key
    initiative in advancing things like the microgrids, the new
    technologies we are looking to, to mitigate the impact of
    climate change in the Arctic as well as to reduce costs.
        So what I would like from you publicly this morning is your
    commitment to remain engaged with these issues ensuring that
    the Arctic Energy Office continues with its purpose, but also
    recognizing what the National Renewable Energy Lab, NREL, has
    done in concert with the Cold Climate Housing Research Center
    that exists, the partnership then that comes with that to
    explore and understand cold climate technologies, maintaining
    that energy security. I would just like your commitment to have
    a focus in these areas.
        Ms. Granholm. You have that commitment.
        The Chairman. Very good. We look forward to that and to the
    opportunity to demonstrate the advantages of the pioneering
    going on in cold weather, weather climates and America's energy
    security.
        You have mentioned security for America. We all want that.
    We all understand that. We all want to move to cleaner energy
    technologies and one of the strong initiatives that came out of
    our Energy Act of last year that was passed into law, was the
    effort that I had led along with Senator Manchin here, our
    Mineral Security Act. This, to me, is as significant as
    anything going forward. When we think about vulnerabilities and
    American security, because as you speak to the opportunity to
    build those wind turbines here, to do more with all clean
    energy technologies, if we don't have the guts, to use your
    term, if we don't have the minerals to build these because we
    rely on China, because we rely on other countries that are,
    perhaps, not reliable friends, this places us in a vulnerable
    position.
        What I would ask of you this morning is to share with the
    Committee how you believe that our mineral security is a
    national security imperative as well as an imperative in terms
    of what more we can be doing as a nation to provide for those
    jobs that you are talking about. This can be contentious
    because there are some people that don't want to dig that hole,
    that don't want to mine for the resource here because they
    don't like digging the hole. But the reality is, is that
    resource is necessary to make that next step for that clean
    energy economy that you are talking about. So if you can please
    address----
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        The Chairman. ----our mineral insecurity and what that
    means for us.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you, Senator, for the question.
        I think it is a very important question if we are to build
    the supply chain, for example, for batteries. As one example,
    if we allow for China to corner the market on lithium or for
    the Democratic Republic of Congo to be the place where
    everybody gets cobalt, when there may be child labor or human
    rights violations associated with that supply, then we are
    missing a massive opportunity for our own security, but also
    for a market for our trading partners who also may want to have
    access to minerals that are produced in a responsible way. And
    responsible way is an important thing to mention. We know that
    we can mine in a responsible way, but I do think it's really
    important for us and thank you for your leadership on the
    Energy Act, because there was direction to the Department of
    Energy to work on this issue of critical minerals and rare
    earths which I am very enthusiastically supportive of for both
    jobs and energy security and supply chain security in the
    United States.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        Governor, if you could, just basically explain your
    thoughts about energy independence and the importance of the
    United States of America to be energy independent. This
    includes using all-of-the-above energy in the best fashion,
    cleanest fashion, and technology that we may be able to
    produce.
        Ms. Granholm. Yup, thank you, Senator. I really appreciate
    this question, because I do think that we should be energy
    secure and I do think that we should be doing it in the
    cleanest way possible. And so, this is where the Department of
    Energy comes in and, if confirmed, I want to work with you to
    continue to push on carbon management solutions that get to the
    goal of net zero carbon emissions by 2050. And if you look at
    the internet--Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, they
    have said that you can't get to that goal of net carbon zero
    without technologies that are being deployed and researched at
    the Department of Energy like carbon capture, use and
    sequestration, like hydrogen solutions, like direct air
    capture. There is a series of technologies that the Department
    of Energy is working on to reduce and manage carbon emissions.
    And I think that is an important piece of the energy mix to
    make us secure and to have us reach the goal of net zero carbon
    emissions by 2050.
        Senator Manchin. Also, you know, there are an awful lot of
    states that have been heavy lifters for many, many years. We
    have Senators from Wyoming, Alaska, Michigan, and West
    Virginia, whose states have done the heavy lifting to get the
    country where we are today. And I think we have talked
    previously about this, people feel like they have been left
    behind. So in those areas that have been ravaged because of the
    market changes, the market is changing. We know that, and
    people are coming to realize that. How do we keep them in an
    opportunity situation? What have you seen that the Department
    of Energy could help us with?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, this is the most important question,
    honestly, Senator Manchin, because we know that this transition
    is happening and we cannot leave our people behind. And this
    technology, the ability to, not just research it, but to take
    it to scale. I mean, for example, you look at blue hydrogen,
    for example, taking natural gas and from it creating hydrogen
    that is clean. Well, that hydrogen requires equipment and the
    equipment has like steam methane reformers. Who is making that
    equipment? If we are getting that equipment from another
    country, we're missing an opportunity to put our people to
    work.
        So in West Virginia and in other coal states and other
    fossil fuel states, there is an opportunity for us to
    specialize in the technologies that reduce carbon emissions to
    make those technologies here, to put people to work here and to
    be able to look at other ways to diversify as well. And if I
    could just say a word, I mean, Michigan, obviously, had relied,
    has relied for 100 years on the internal combustion engine
    which is powered by fossil fuels. And when the recession hit
    and the bottom dropped out, you know, and there were senators
    and leaders from Michigan for years who had battled CAFE
    standards because we wanted to protect our industry. I totally
    get that. But as we say in Michigan, in deference to the
    Detroit Redwings, you know, Wayne Gretzky has said, ``You skate
    to where the puck is going.'' So we saw where the puck was
    headed and the puck was headed toward cleaner solutions.
        And so, we weren't going to abandon the automobile, but if
    we could make the next generation of automobile and be
    successful at it, that is an opportunity for job creation. And
    now, as I mentioned, 126,000 people in Michigan are working in
    clean energy where they had not before. So my point is, these
    place-based solutions to be able to take advantage of expertise
    and comparative advantages of states and build on that to allow
    them to diversify inside and outside their main industries is a
    partnership that we could have through the Department of
    Energy.
        Senator Manchin. I have one more question, if you could. As
    the transition is happening, as we know, would you be
    supportive--because there is an awful lot of money that is
    going to be put toward the Department of Energy for research
    and development. Any of this type of research development and
    new technology and manufacturing tax credits incentives--would
    you be supportive of having a priority for those jobs, or that
    money, being used in the states that lost traditional jobs that
    have carried this country?
        Ms. Granholm. A thousand percent, yes.
        Senator Manchin. That is all I need.
        Thank you, Madam. Thank you, Senator.
        At this time we have Senator Barrasso.
        Senator Barrasso. Thanks, Senator Manchin.
        Just to follow up on Senator Manchin's first question, a
    series of short questions. If you would just, kind of, respond
    briefly.
        The United States is the world's largest oil and natural
    gas producer, just a fact. On balance is that a good thing or a
    bad thing?
        Ms. Granholm. It is a good thing, and I look forward to
    working with you to make sure that it's clean and reduces GHG
    emissions.
        Senator Barrasso. And the United States has, if not the
    lowest, then among the lowest energy prices in the developed
    world. Again, on balance, a good thing or bad thing?
        Ms. Granholm. Good thing, of course.
        Senator Barrasso. Jobs in oil, natural gas, and coal
    sectors pay well above the national average. On balance, good
    thing?
        Ms. Granholm. Good thing, of course.
        Senator Barrasso. Largely because of hydraulic fracturing
    U.S. emissions are now at the lowest level since the early
    1990s. On balance, good thing? Bad----
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Barrasso. And U.S. oil exports, natural gas
    exports, coal exports to other countries make us influential
    suppliers in the global energy markets. Good thing? Bad----
        Ms. Granholm. It's important to be influential in the
    global energy market, yes.
        Senator Barrasso. So last week the Biden Administration
    issued a 60-day ban on oil, gas, coal leasing, and permitting
    on federal lands and waters. Now half of the State of Wyoming
    is federally-owned. Alaska, it is a lot higher percentage than
    that. Did President Biden or his advisors seek your counsel on
    the ban?
        Ms. Granholm. I knew that it was coming. It was part of the
    campaign promise of President Biden.
        Senator Barrasso. Did you encourage him to issue the ban
    then?
        Ms. Granholm. I didn't have a specific conversation with
    him about it myself.
        Senator Barrasso. Yes a long-term ban on oil, gas leasing
    is going to cost about 62,000 jobs in New Mexico, and we have
    the Senator from New Mexico here; about 33,000 jobs in Wyoming;
    18,000 jobs in Colorado. A long-term ban is going to cut
    revenues to New Mexico and Wyoming by hundreds of millions of
    dollars which these states use for K-2 public education and
    other essential services. I am just curious how a long-term ban
    is consistent with the President's goal of unifying our country
    and putting Americans back to work and helping our economies
    grow, how is that all consistent?
        Ms. Granholm. I think the President's plan of building back
    better which would create more jobs in energy, clean energy,
    than the jobs that might be sacrificed. But I will say this, no
    job, we don't want to see any jobs sacrificed. And that's why
    this, when you opened up your remarks, sir, your remarks about
    technology were so important. This is why reducing GHG
    emissions is so important on, in the fossil fuel arena. The
    moratorium on public lands, I know, for those states that have
    these jobs in abundance, this is something we're going to have
    to work on together to ensure that people remain employed.
        But I will say that the licenses that currently are
    operating are not going to be disrupted. They will continue to
    operate. Then the oil and gas industry, in particular, they've
    got 10,000 licenses that they have and that will not be
    disrupted that they can continue to permit and deploy and
    extract energy from. It is only on future licenses that this
    moratorium is. So it gives us some time to be able to work on
    creating jobs and diversifying and providing good paying jobs
    in every pocket of the country. And to Senator Manchin's point,
    I know that part of what Joe Biden has put together is a, sort
    of, SWAT team inside of the Federal Government to focus on
    communities that are, that have powered America and to make
    sure that we don't leave those workers behind.
        Senator Barrasso. In 2016 you stated the U.S. should, ``Do
    everything we possibly can to keep fossil fuel energy in the
    ground.'' Do you stand by those remarks? Do you want to comment
    related to that?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I think it is important that as we
    develop fossil fuels that we also develop the technology to
    reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
        Senator Barrasso. In December 2020, December 29th, just a
    little over a month ago, USA Today published an Op Ed entitled,
    ``Jennifer Granholm's Energy Record in Michigan Should Frighten
    America.'' The Op Ed alleges that as Governor you directed
    hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars to battery, solar, and
    other green energy companies that failed to deliver on their
    job creation promises. One of the highlights, you talked about
    one of the examples was A123 Systems, an advanced battery
    company, promised to create 3,000 jobs. In 2009, the Obama
    Administration awarded A123 Systems a $249 million grant. Your
    administration provided more than $141 million in credits and
    subsidies. In 2012, they filed for bankruptcy, were later
    bought by a Chinese company, restructured in federal bankruptcy
    court and stopped manufacturing in Michigan altogether. In
    short, American taxpayers spent close to $400 million to
    subsidize a technology transfer, basically, to the Chinese.
        So based on this record, could you provide us something in
    terms of what confidence we should have, if you are confirmed,
    that you will be able to invest U.S. taxpayer dollars wisely?
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you, Senator.
        First, that article is incorrect. In Michigan we have
    something called the Michigan Economic Growth Authority that
    offers tax credits to firms that promise to build, create a
    certain number of jobs, but if they don't, they don't get the
    funds. And so, in Michigan, because of the way that tax credit
    is structured, that's--we don't pay out if firms don't deliver.
    I'm really proud, actually, of my record in Michigan in terms
    of seeding the area for battery technology. As I say, one-third
    of all battery facilities now in North America are in Michigan
    as a result. We should not be wasting taxpayer dollars. There's
    no doubt about that.
        And the money that was the Loan Guarantee Program that the
    Loan Program Office at the Department of Energy was/is
    responsible for, they too, in fact in Michigan, for every
    dollar in tax credits that we put out, we got $2.30 back in
    investment. And that's the kind of return that we should be
    looking for. The taxpayers of the United States have received
    $500 million back from the loans that the Loan Program Office
    has given out. And I hope that we don't look at some failures
    along the way as a reason not to invest in technologies that
    banks are not going to invest in because they haven't been
    deployed yet.
        And this is why, I think, the Loan Program Office is a huge
    opportunity for all of your states to be able to see
    technologies deployed and to--unfortunately, I think the idea
    that the government's incentives are not, because there may be
    one or two issues where the companies themselves, for market
    reasons or because China has come in and bigfooted in some way.
    Those should not be reasons why the U.S. does not get in the
    game. You better, we better believe that China is in this game.
    They are aggressively competing. States, individually, are
    bringing a knife to a gunfight and without a federal partner in
    making sure that we can get these jobs in America, then we will
    be losing globally. So I hope that we can work together to
    ensure that the Loan Program Office and the state programs
    across the country are successful and are supported and in
    partnership with the private sector to make sure that we create
    jobs for people.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Wyden.
        Senator Wyden. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
        And Governor, welcome. It is a pleasure to have you on a
    day when the Biden Administration is coming out swinging on
    climate change, and as Governor you worked relentlessly on this
    issue. So clean energy can create more high skill, high wage
    jobs. And it is jobs that I am going to focus on.
        After Oregonians battled brutal wildfires in the Fall of
    2020, I was asked often about my 21st Century Civilian
    Conservation Corps legislation that would put thousands of
    people to work in the woods in a dozen ways that address the
    effects of climate change. Now we learned today that the
    President is considering creating a Climate Change Corps which
    is on the same page as our discussion in the Pacific Northwest.
    Now at the Department of Energy, you would have the ability to
    do daring, cutting-edge research that can arm our climate
    change and conservation fighters with the smartest, science-
    based strategies for reducing carbon in our communities. I know
    you are up for this, and I would like to hear a little bit
    about your thoughts.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, well, thank you for that, and I'm very
    excited to be able to take technology to scale. So for example,
    off of the West Coast and Alaska, and Senator Murkowski and I
    talked about this as well, and in Washington State, you've got
    an amazing coastline and you've got amazing waves. And so, to
    have offshore wind be an opportunity for us to gain clean
    energy is huge, but in--but the shelf is very steep. And so,
    the next wave, potentially, of technology for offshore is
    perhaps on platforms, perhaps there are platforms that have
    been built by those who also built oil rigs. So there's an
    opportunity for diversification or hydrokinetic energy, wave
    power, another technology that, I think, would put people to
    work whether it's the Climate Corps, which I'm very excited
    about as well, or people who have been displaced by the changes
    to our economy.
        The bottom line is technology, whether it is wind or next
    generation solar or utility scale battery technology coming out
    of the laboratories or battery technology for vehicles or
    geothermal or you name it, it is very exciting to be able to
    imagine not just the idea, but the deployment of this
    technology that puts people to work and generates clean energy.
        Senator Wyden. I have another question, but I just want to
    make it clear that I think the important work that is being
    done on climate, our 21st Century Civilian Conservation Corps,
    is an ideal fit with the cutting-edge research that you are
    doing at the Department of Energy that will arm our climate
    warriors and mobilize our communities to help us reduce these
    horrendous fires that we are seeing.
        I am going to turn to the issue of Hanford. As you know,
    Senator Cantwell and I care deeply about this issue because the
    Columbia River, which Hanford adjoins, is our lifeblood. And
    here is the problem. We have spent billions and billions of
    dollars to turn the toxic waste into material that can be
    stored safely, but not a single ounce of waste has actually
    been treated. And so what happens is we have all these
    failures, and then what happens is people just kind of kick the
    can down the road. So we have talked about approaches like new
    tanks to temporarily secure the waste, or something called
    grouting which keeps the waste in place. We need to really have
    a concrete, specific game plan to complete this decades-long
    effort and actually deal with the safety of the people in
    Oregon and Washington, in particular. Senator Cantwell has been
    doing good work on this for years, and we work in partnership
    on it.
        Your thoughts? What are we going to do to finally deal with
    safety and protect the people in the Northwest against,
    basically, what has just been a kicking the can down the road
    strategy?
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you, Senator Wyden, and thank you,
    Senator Cantwell, for your discussion with me yesterday on this
    as well. I am well aware this is the largest and longest
    cleanup project that has occurred.
        Senator Wyden. It is the longest running battle since the
    Trojan War.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Granholm. And you were right that we cannot kick it
    down the road, that we have to take steps every single year to
    address this issue. I know it is complex and I appreciated the
    conversation that I had with Senator Cantwell yesterday in
    discussing some of the steps that have been taken, but there
    are so many more that need to be taken. So you have my
    assurance, both of you, that this is going to be a priority. I
    know that every Energy Secretary who has come up for
    confirmation is asked this question and they all say it is a
    priority and I know it is complicated, but I also know that we
    have seen some positive steps in the past few years in terms of
    carving out pieces, taking care of the most, the lowest hanging
    fruit. We still have some very difficult, highly radioactive
    waste that we have to deal with, but the bottom line is I will
    make sure that this is high level in the Department and I look
    forward to working with you on it.
        Senator Wyden. Hearing that it is urgent business for you
    is what the people of the Pacific Northwest want to hear.
        Ms. Granholm. Urgent.
        Senator Wyden. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Lee.
        Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Governor Granholm, it is good to see you today.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Senator Lee. Thanks for visiting with me briefly yesterday.
        I wanted to continue to talk to you a little bit about some
    energy policy issues, some issues that would fall in front of
    your portfolio, if you were to be confirmed to this position.
    As you know and as we discussed briefly yesterday, I think, the
    Department of Energy has an entity called the Office of Fossil
    Energy. That office plays a significant role in, among other
    things, approving the export of natural gas from the United
    States. If a company wants to export natural gas to another
    country, a country with whom we don't have an established trade
    agreement that is applicable, then they have to go through the
    Office of Fossil Energy and they have to make a public interest
    determination before allowing them.
        What can you tell me about how your climate considerations
    might be factored into that analysis, if you were confirmed,
    and would climate change considerations impact your
    determination specifically with regard to LNG exports?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I mean, the Natural Gas Act of 1938
    dictates the requirements and the considerations and I would
    certainly abide by that Act, including issues related to
    whether something is in the public interest, what the economic,
    what the geopolitical concerns are. I would abide by the
    direction that Congress has given through the Natural Gas Act.
        Senator Lee. Okay, let's talk about how those
    determinations might work. I suppose that in many instances
    foreign consumption of American produced LNG would probably
    serve our geopolitical interests, would they not?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, if, for example, I know that some
    Senators are interested in this in the smaller exports to
    island nations that might be using pure coal or diesel, et
    cetera, it might lower the greenhouse gas emissions for those
    countries. And I would say I would also want to work with the
    natural gas providers to see if we can continue to reduce
    greenhouse gas emissions at the point of production.
        Senator Lee. In other words, American natural gas might
    well be a lot cleaner than whatever else they would otherwise
    burn, is that----
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, in terms of emissions, that's true.
        Senator Lee. Yes. Do you think the Department of Energy
    ought to play some role in promoting American energy abroad?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Lee. Let's talk about some issues related to
    mining, really quickly. Although you are not as involved in
    mining as the Department of the Interior would be, the
    Department of Energy does have a significant role to play
    there.
        Mineral markets of all sorts have been suffering as a
    result of a variety of factors, some of them regulatory, some
    of them cyclical and economic, some of them related to
    restrictions on access to federal lands where we have a lot of
    minerals. So for example, uranium producers, in 2019, produced
    around 173,000 pounds of domestic uranium concentrate, or U308.
    This is the lowest domestic production, as I understand it,
    that has occurred since before 1949. In order to boost domestic
    uranium production, the Trump Administration requested $150
    million to establish the Uranium Reserve Program. Congress
    allocated $75 million to that program, but it appears that the
    work has not yet commenced. This is a significant issue for the
    uranium industry, but it doesn't appear to address some of the
    reforms that might be necessary to help the mining industry as
    a whole.
        Do you have any ideas on how you would intend, if you are
    confirmed, to implement the Uranium Reserve Program at the
    Department of Energy?
        Ms. Granholm. Right, I certainly would abide by the
    direction of Congress. I know that there is that $75 million
    there and, I think, you know, broadening the scope of your
    question to include other critical minerals. I was saying
    earlier that I think that these minerals can be mined in a
    responsible way, in a way that respects the environment but it
    also serves to shore up our ability to produce products, like
    batteries, for markets internationally. And we don't want to be
    at the--under the thumb of China or other countries that may
    have, as their geopolitical strategic interest, to corner the
    market on critical minerals.
        We need to be independent. And so, I'm eager to work with
    folks on all sides of the aisle to make sure that the United
    States has its own critical supply.
        Senator Lee. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Senator Cantwell.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be
    remiss if I didn't say something about Senator Murkowski's
    comments this morning and working with everybody. There is a
    great article in the Seattle Times this morning about the Smart
    Grid legislation that we worked on together, and so it is good
    to know that people are finally seeing the remnants of that
    legislation that you worked so hard on, that we all worked so
    hard on, actually become law. Now people in the community are
    realizing how we can take it and move it forward. So hopefully
    you will get a chance to check that article out.
        Governor Granholm, congratulations on your nomination. You
    have already, I can see just from the few questions you have
    had, gotten a sense of the vast issues of energy policy and
    challenges facing America. You and I had a chance to talk about
    Hanford, but I just wanted to reiterate it being one of the
    largest cleanup projects in the entire world. Hanford is the
    Federal Government's second largest obligation after Social
    Security and Healthcare. So it is frustrating, as I mentioned
    to you often, that administrations come in and try to do it,
    and cut corners or do something. Last year the Trump
    Administration proposed funding at 46 percent below what DOE
    said was needed for the Tri-Party Agreement compliance. So I
    hope that you can commit to putting forth a budget that helps
    DOE keep its milestones that are laid out as part of a Tri-
    Party Agreement. Do you commit----
        Ms. Granholm. You have my commitment.
        Senator Cantwell. I am sorry, I----
        Ms. Granholm. I said--I'm sorry, I talked over you. Pardon
    me. I said you have my commitment.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
        Well, a lot of people at home are listening. I just want to
    make sure people heard that.
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, I get that.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cantwell. In addition, I want to give credit to
    Secretary Brouillette, because he and his team did make
    significant progress on the construction of the facility that
    Senator Wyden was commenting on. So one of the next challenges
    will be to meet a 2023 Tri-Party Agreement deadline of getting
    that facility online. I hope that is something that we can
    meet, and I hope that you will come to the Tri-Cities as soon
    as possible to see this facility.
        Ms. Granholm. I'd very much like to do that.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
        As far as workforce safety, that is a major issue at
    Hanford. The HAMMER facility helps the training and skilling of
    a workforce to continue to be ready to meet all the challenges
    at Hanford. I hope you will commit to supporting that.
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Cantwell. And then, just in the debate or
    conversation we have just been having, you know, our national
    laboratories play a pretty big role in the next generation of
    energy policy and enabling one, in particular, project. The
    Grid Storage Launchpad at the Pacific Northwest National
    Laboratory is really important in doing the next level work on
    commercialization of long duration grid-scale storage at one-
    tenth of the cost of today's lithium-ion batteries. So I hope
    that these projects at our national laboratories, like Grid
    Launch, will be priorities for you, and so will the funding.
        Ms. Granholm. Absolutely, very excited about it.
        Senator Cantwell. Great.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chairman. Who is next? Senator Cassidy? [Off mic.]
        Sorry for that slight delay. Senator Cassidy, you are
    online, please go ahead.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Governor, thank you again for our phone conversations. I
    enjoyed them. And I know that you and I have discussed this,
    but for the benefit of those whom I represent, I would like to
    go over some of the same things we discussed because I think
    there is, kind of, a question before the American people. Does
    the Biden Administration actually care about their jobs? You
    had mentioned, in response to Senator Barrasso, that the Biden
    Team will have a SWAT team to make sure that folks are
    employed. I am thinking they have a SWAT team to take out some
    jobs.
        The Keystone XL pipeline, 11,000 people either fully or
    partially employed, obviously unemployed. And you had mentioned
    that ideally we would replace those with green jobs. Mr.
    Buttigieg, when he was in testimony yesterday, admitted that
    those jobs will not come online quickly. Gina McCarthy in
    another interview said that the American people have sacrificed
    enough. We should not ask them to sacrifice more. So how do we
    square the fact that we are killing 11,000 jobs now, that there
    will be some, assuming that they are replaced with green jobs,
    that there will be some lag time there and yet, supposedly, the
    American people are not being asked to sacrifice anymore
    because they have suffered too much already?
        Your thoughts on that, please?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, thank you, Senator.
        I, and I know Senator Stabenow feel this, I totally get the
    concern about job losses, totally, but this is why President
    Biden's commitment to create millions of jobs in
    infrastructure----
        Senator Cassidy. How quickly will those jobs form though?
    Mr. Buttigieg concedes that they may not come online for maybe
    years. And if you have lost a job that is putting food on your
    table now, it is cold comfort to know that years from now,
    perhaps in a different state with a different training within
    which you have, there will be another job available.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I completely understand what you are
    saying. What I can tell you is from my experience in Michigan
    is that when we focused on providing incentives for job
    providers to locate, in Michigan, in clean energy, they came. I
    mean, you know, Senator Manchin and Senator Stabenow have 48C
    which is, which they hope will be able to be plussed up to
    entice job providers into communities that have been left
    behind. So this is why----
        Senator Cassidy. So let me--I am sorry, because I have
    limited time.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Cassidy. I see where you are going with that, but
    obviously, there is going to be a lag time and it may happen,
    it may not happen, but those folks will not have a paycheck
    next week.
        As we all know, oil and gas is used not just for fuel, but
    also for feedstock for the plastics. You are sitting at a desk
    which is covered with some plastic to keep it from being
    scratched. It is probably built with certain glues that are
    made from the feedstock from oil and natural gas. So is it
    someplace, something we agree on that if there is decreased
    supply that prices typically would increase for oil and gas?
        Ms. Granholm. The rules, the economic rules suggest that
    when the supply goes down, the price goes up.
        Senator Cassidy. So one thing that has been just so
    remarkable in South Louisiana and across the Gulf Coast is
    there have been companies moving, reshoring, to take advantage
    of low-cost natural gas and our workforce in order to build
    those plastic lubricants and chemicals that ship worldwide
    creating jobs here and done with our environmental standards,
    not those of other countries, which are far worse, so net
    global greenhouse gas emissions are lowered.
        My concern is that if we decrease the supply of natural gas
    and oil from the United States, we either have to import it or
    we become less competitive because our domestically-produced
    products are now higher because of a lower supply. Is there
    anything faulty with that logic?
        Ms. Granholm. The only thing I would say, sir, is that we
    would want to increase the pie of energy feedstocks. And so, as
    we consider what our energy sources are, diversifying and
    adding new sources----
        Senator Cassidy. But if we speak not of energy feedstock,
    but we speak of a feedstock for a lubricant, a plastic, a
    resin, we could grow it from corn, but then you have to have
    more fertilizer which is made with methane, in order to have
    greater yield. Again, is there, with that, not speaking of
    energy for fuel, but rather that for feedstock, was there
    anything wrong with my logic?
        Ms. Granholm. Well, here's what I would say, sir. I know
    you and I spoke about this, the opportunity to, and separate
    from cost, the opportunity to provide these products as well as
    energy in a way that reduces greenhouse gas emissions is there,
    if we take this technology to scale. So you and I spoke, I
    mean, slightly separate, you and I spoke about this idea of
    blue hydrogen and how the push boats along the Louisiana coast
    might be, for example, a pilot for that kind of technology. I
    would love to work with you on that to ensure that people are
    put to work, but in a way that reduces greenhouse gas
    emissions. I think that's true for the feedstock for products
    as well.
        Senator Cassidy. I thank you for that. I am out of time. I
    will thank you for that commitment to, kind of, seeing what we
    can do, but I will say that if we have less supply of natural
    gas and oil, we will buy it from other countries creating jobs
    there while we destroy jobs here.
        Thank you, Governor. I appreciate it, and I yield back.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Sanders, I understand, is on a call, but he will be
    returning. Is that correct? If so, we will go to Senator
    Stabenow.
        Senator Stabenow. Thank you very much. I appreciate,
    Governor Granholm, your mentioning 48C, which is a tax credit
    in the 2009 Economic Stimulus package which I authored--a 30
    percent tax credit for retooling or creating clean energy
    manufacturing--and things just exploded in Michigan. A lot of
    what we saw came from that, and I am so pleased to be
    partnering with our incoming Chair, Senator Manchin, to focus
    this on particular states where there has been this transition,
    where it is so hard moving from fossil fuels, from coal, from
    jobs that are not there, are not going to be there and how to
    get new jobs as quickly as possible. I know that what we did
    then created jobs, actually, much more quickly than I thought.
    And so, I am anxious to put those kinds of things in place as
    quickly as we can.
        Not surprisingly, I want to talk to you about vehicles and
    the enormous task of making the next generation of vehicles. We
    know that Michigan auto workers are ready, willing, and able to
    do that, as are the manufacturers, and, in fact, GM is
    investing $27 billion to bring 30 different EV models to the
    market in the next four years, including trucks. Same thing
    with Ford, investing $11.5 billion. I could do an ad and go
    through all of the models, but I won't. Stellantis, formerly
    FCA, is doing the same with electrifying their popular Jeep
    line. So I am very excited to work with you, and to work with
    the President, on building back better on this plan.
        I will say one thing though, as we look at our investments,
    I am glad we are making these investments. You mentioned China,
    and the red flag over and over again is what is happening in
    China on EVs, over $100 billion in subsidies they have given,
    just in the last ten years. Of the 142 lithium-ion battery
    megafactories that are under construction, 107 are in China,
    and only nine are in the U.S. We can't sustain this. We have
    got to lean in much more quickly.
        So what role do you believe the Department of Energy can
    play in ensuring a number of things--our workers have the
    skills they need for high-tech auto jobs, our states can build
    the public charging station infrastructure--which, I think, is
    really critical now to consumer confidence and availability in
    purchasing electric vehicles--and then also, working with our
    universities and our industries to develop the new battery
    storage technologies for vehicles and renewable electricity?
        Ms. Granholm. Great, thank you, Senator. I'm so enthused by
    the numbers of, the amount of investment that's happening by
    the domestic auto industry when during the recession we were
    just----
        Senator Stabenow. Right.
        Ms. Granholm. ----you know, begging for them to survive.
    And as the proud driver of a Chevy Bolt, it's my second Bolt,
    best car ever. I just love these electric vehicles. I drive on
    sunshine. I have solar panels on my roof and plug the car in.
    It's just amazing. And I hope we can have universal acceptance
    and deployment of EVs. Obviously, the charging stations are a
    necessity so that people still do, have range anxiety and we
    want to make sure people can drive from coast to coast and stop
    everywhere in between and feel like they're not jeopardizing
    their freedom of mobility.
        Part of what Joe Biden's Executive Order was today was to
    create a whole of government effort with respect to, especially
    electric vehicles, charging. I will look forward to working
    with Mayor Buttigieg to make sure that those charging stations
    are installed along the rights, the federal rights-of-way along
    highways, et cetera. And just as sort of a separate matter from
    that, I think it's important for us to think about digging once
    and also potentially using those rights-of-way if we have to
    ground grid transmission wires or if we have to, if we would
    like to get broadband to rural communities. Those are
    opportunities while that is happening.
        The 17 national labs, obviously, are working in tandem with
    many universities across the country to create that next
    generation of STEM workers. You talked about the importance of
    a trained workforce, both the folks who are in the factories as
    well as the folks who are designing the vehicles. That's DOE's
    bread and butter, and those 17 labs are the jewels, and I'm so
    proud of that FRIB facility in Michigan attached to Michigan
    State University. And the battery technology, that too, is
    being done at, distributed throughout the lab system and it's
    for vehicles, but also energy, excuse me, utility scale energy
    storage is also being worked on. And again, we have to build
    those batteries soup to nuts, not just assemble the cells that
    come from Asia, but build the actual cells themselves inside
    the United States to make that full supply chain happen.
        I just want to say I really applaud this Committee for the
    Energy Act of 2020, because there was so much in there that
    demonstrates bipartisan support for these new technologies that
    I think this Committee can be an example of unity for the
    country based upon the work that was done at the end of last
    year.
        Senator Stabenow. Thank you.
        I know I am out of time but rather than ask another
    question I am just----
        Ms. Granholm. Sorry----
        Senator Stabenow. No, that was excellent. I would just say
    that we know that medium- and heavy-duty vehicles make up 22
    percent of the energy use in our transportation sector.
    Commercial trucks contribute 60 percent of the air pollution in
    metropolitan areas and so on. So I am a huge advocate and
    proponent of the SuperTruck program and the Department of
    Energy has pushed to continue to expand that. That is where we
    can tackle this area around energy and carbon pollution the
    most, and I know that the Department is set to enter the third
    iteration with the SuperTruck 3 program. I think it is very,
    very important that we be focusing on emissions from larger
    vehicles.
        So thank you.
        Ms. Granholm. Agreed, and I look forward to working with
    you on that.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Hyde-Smith.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Governor Granholm, congratulations on this nomination, and
    I certainly welcome you and your husband today to these
    hearings.
        Mississippi has a significant energy infrastructure,
    including the largest U.S. nuclear power reactor in terms of
    generating capacity, a large petroleum refinery and natural gas
    processing plant and a liquified natural gas terminal located
    on the state's Gulf of Mexico on our coastline. And referring
    to the moratorium from the White House on new oil and gas
    leases on federal lands and waters, the Gulf of Mexico is one
    of the nation's most important regions for energy resources and
    accounts for a large portion of our crude oil in federal,
    offshore natural gas production.
        Mississippi, as I said, we have a substantial energy
    infrastructure which provides thousands of jobs and hundreds of
    millions of dollars in economic output through our ports,
    refineries, processing plants and things like that. While I
    understand the responsibility for carrying out this executive
    action is not solely the Department of Energy's responsibility,
    but it is the responsibility of the Department of Energy for
    overseeing the United States' energy supply. The Department of
    Energy has so much to do with this right now that you will be
    leading. Do you support this moratorium on oil and gas leasing
    and what am I to tell my constituents, the fossil fuels
    industry, to assure them that their jobs, their job security,
    they are secure in that gas prices will remain stable and U.S.
    energy independence will continue in the years to come? What am
    I to tell my constituents that are depending on this?
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you, Senator.
        Two things I would say briefly. One is that the moratorium
    on leases is prospective. It does not apply to those who are
    currently operating. Offshore, I believe there are the oil and
    gas industry has 12 million acres of offshore ocean water that
    is under lease, but they're only using half of that or maybe
    even 3 million of the 12, but there are 10,000 leases that are
    unused. So my point in saying is, is that the Biden
    Administration is not going to take their jobs away on existing
    leases. That's true onshore as well, 26 million acres of public
    lands that are under lease, but only half of that is being
    used. But that's the first thing.
        The second thing is, this gives us time to be able to work
    on the technologies that reduce greenhouse gas emissions that
    will keep people employed and even the oil and gas companies
    themselves have taken on net zero carbon emission goals. They
    are considering themselves, many of them, energy companies now
    and not just oil and gas companies. They see where the puck is
    going, if you will. And so, I want to work with you to make
    sure that people remain employed, that we look at Mississippi
    as an opportunity to take advantage of some of your other
    amazing assets like the forests, the cellulosic biofuel
    opportunities, et cetera, in addition to making sure that the
    technologies that are being researched in the labs of the
    Department of Energy are taken to scale and deployed so that we
    can continue to produce energy.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. My concerns are those that are Senator
    Cassidy's concerns as well. You know, there are things out
    there that we know you are focused on, but the timeframe of
    these people that would be unemployed to that time is my
    greatest concern. So I look forward to working with you on
    that.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure
    to call you that.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Senator Heinrich. And I should say thank you to our former
    Chairman, who it has been a real pleasure working with, and I
    look forward to working with in the future.
        Governor, congratulations, and thanks so much for meeting
    with me yesterday. I especially want to thank you for offering
    to come out and take a look at our national labs in New Mexico.
    You did that of your own accord. I usually have to ask someone
    to do that. So thank you.
        You said in your prepared testimony that we, in America,
    cannot leave our people behind. I think we all agree with that
    sentiment, and want to figure out what is the best way to
    actually achieve that. You know, the energy sector is changing
    incredibly rapidly right now, and that means incredible new
    careers. We just broke ground on the largest single build wind
    farm in the history of the country in Central New Mexico. But
    it also means job losses into the future in traditional fossil
    energy, and we have to recognize those changes that are
    occurring.
        Coal has experienced a dramatic decline over the last
    decade, and oil and gas are now entering what appears to be a
    structural, rather than a cyclical, decline, and that is
    separate from any of the policy or climate change concerns. So,
    you know, I believe that the people who work in these sectors
    today and in the past are like our nation's energy veterans.
    They are men and women who have powered this incredible nation
    for the last half century and given their working lives to that
    goal.
        What investments will we need to make, specifically in oil
    and gas workers and in their communities, to ensure that these
    hard-working Americans are not left behind?
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you for the question. I mean, this is a
    chicken and egg question that we faced in Michigan. Do you
    train people for jobs that are not there yet? It's much better
    to get a job provider and train somebody for a specific job.
    And so, this is what the efforts of the Biden Administration
    are looking at. What are the economic assets that states have
    that can create economic clusters that will make them
    successful? And then be able to partner with universities, et
    cetera, to train at or in unions to be able to train people for
    good jobs in their states so they don't have to move somewhere
    but every state has something to offer?
        You described the big wind farm. Why aren't we building
    these wind turbines near the wind farms in America? We should
    not be importing those huge, I mean, the materials work that is
    being done at the Department of Energy on lightweight
    materials, that can be used as assets to create wind turbines
    that are larger and give people a chance to be able to work in
    that industry.
        Bottom line is place-based strategies are critical for
    areas that have been left behind. And that's exactly what the
    Executive Order from Joe Biden, today, has put together to fix.
        Senator Heinrich. So this should be an easy one. Will you
    commit to working with me to create a place-based plan for
    investing in and diversifying my state's oil and gas producing
    communities so that those constituents do not get left behind?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
        It is hard, because history has shown that hanging on to
    the past, frankly, is very politically expedient. What I have
    seen is that doesn't always work, and usually fails those
    communities in the long run. We have to make these forward-
    thinking investments or we are going to see those job losses,
    and they are going to be worse, and they are going to be
    sooner. So I look forward to working with you. This is not
    going to be easy, but it is incredibly important.
        One of the fastest ways, obviously, to drive
    decarbonization and to drive the carbon pollution out of vast
    swaths of our economy is to begin electrifying practically
    everything. You have talked a lot about electric
    transportation. You know, today it is possible to electrify
    broad swaths of our economy that were run with fossil
    generation in the past. Heating water, heating and space
    cooling, and transportation are just a few of those examples.
        Importantly, if we do that, it creates an enormous number
    of blue-collar jobs and quality careers in local communities.
    How can you harness the expertise of the Department of Energy
    to accelerate that transition and accelerate the
    electrification of those parts of our economy for which the
    technology is there, but there are all these friction points?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I appreciate this question because one
    of the, you know, again, the Executive Order that was issued
    today also created a requirement that we lead by example in the
    Federal Government, and it is the Department of Energy that
    will be working on making sure that we are buying American,
    creating demand in America for American-made products and that
    we are deploying them on the vast complexes inside of the
    Federal Government. That creates an opportunity for American
    companies to build these products that will electrify our
    entire, our country in ways where we haven't seen that before.
    So, I think that, number one, and very quickly, that can happen
    through the lead by example effort that the Biden
    Administration has. And I just want to say that the signing of
    the Executive Order this week on Buy American is huge. It is
    huge for the signal, the demand signal that America is serious
    about buying these products, but if you are a company
    manufacturing something, if they're windmills, you've got to
    make them in America. And so locating them in places that have
    been hurting, that's going to be our strategy. How do we get
    them to locate there as we electrify?
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        At this time, we have Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Welcome, Governor Granholm. It was a pleasure to talk with
    you earlier.
        Now, to ensure the fitness of nominees for appointed
    positions, I ask every nominee that comes before any of the
    Committees on which I sit the following two questions.
        Since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unwanted
    requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical
    harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
        Ms. Granholm. I have not.
        Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
    into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?
        Ms. Granholm. I have not.
        Senator Hirono. When you talk about place-based strategies,
    that really makes a lot of sense to me because I represent a
    state that is the most isolated island chain in the world. And
    as recently as 2006, Hawaii relied on imported oil and coal for
    92 percent of our energy. We were spending billions of dollars
    bringing oil and coal into our state, mainly oil. The state now
    gets about 28 percent of its power from renewable sources, but
    our two largest economic drivers, tourism and the military,
    remain highly dependent on oil. So Hawaii now has a goal to
    reach 100 percent renewable energy, renewable power, and a
    carbon neutral economy by 2045. That is one of the most
    ambitious goals of any state. The Department of Energy supports
    these efforts through a Memorandum of Understanding with the
    state that established the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative,
    which Secretary of Energy Moniz renewed in 2014. My question
    is, can the State of Hawaii count on continued support from the
    DOE as it seeks to be a leader in building a clean energy
    economy?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Hirono. You talked a lot, Governor, about creating
    jobs and yes, clean energy careers. Hawaii had a 9.3 percent
    unemployment rate in December, and studies indicate that about
    22 percent of Hawaii's clean energy jobs that were lost due to
    the pandemic have not yet come back. One of President Biden's
    key messages has been that taking action on climate change will
    help build back the economy and create new, well-paying careers
    for people. So, as Governor, you know, you worked to diversify
    Michigan's economy with clean energy and job training. As
    Secretary, what do you see as DOE's role in creating high
    quality jobs in, as you say, place-based strategies----
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Hirono. ----for a state like Hawaii?
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Number one, I think that to create, to identify economic
    clusters that are, that give you a comparative advantage is
    really important. And so, doing an assessment to figure out
    what is it that's unique. I mean, there's so many unique things
    about Hawaii, but what is it that Hawaii wants to focus on to
    create a full supply chain there? And this is what the
    Executive Order from today allows us to really think through in
    communities in place. How do we encourage supply chains for the
    products that those communities are going to be buying to meet
    their demand for clean energy products? The demand signal has
    been set in Hawaii.
        Senator Hirono. Yes.
        Ms. Granholm. And now it's up to us to help to provide the
    supply and it's a supply of those clean energy products made in
    America, hopefully made in Hawaii, if they're going to be used
    in Hawaii. So this is what I look forward to working with you
    on is a strategy that is unique to the unique state that you
    represent.
        Senator Hirono. Manufacturing is always a challenge in
    Hawaii, but if we could at least get the products from the
    United States, from our country, that would be great.
        Now we do a lot of research through the DOE's labs, and
    that is great, but it is also really important as we implement
    the Energy Act of 2020 that was enacted at the end of last
    year. We provided funds for DOE demonstration projects for
    improving the electric grid, expanding energy storage, and
    accelerating new solar, wind, and marine energy technologies.
    So I would like to get your commitment that the DOE's role
    would be to support these kinds of demonstration projects to
    drive innovation in emission-reducing technologies.
        Ms. Granholm. I'm excited to support that. That's right in
    the DOE's sweet spot.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Senator Daines.
        Senator Daines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Governor, thank you for being here today and thanks for
    taking time yesterday to talk about these important issues for
    Montana and our country. If you are confirmed, I hope we can
    see you out in Montana. That way you can take a look at
    firsthand about some of these issues we are talking about here
    today.
        In Montana, we have a diverse energy portfolio that
    supports over 16,000 jobs across our state. Coal and hydro
    produce the vast majority of our electricity. In fact, we have
    the largest recoverable coal reserve in the United States. We
    also have four petroleum refineries and we are building new
    wind and solar farms throughout our great state. Montana has
    balance. We have a balanced energy portfolio, and I believe
    balance is very important and needed at this time.
        Governor, oil and gas production and manufacturing
    accounted for $3.7 billion in Montana GDP in 2019 according to
    the Bureau of Economic Analysis. Coal provides reliable
    baseload energy. It supports high paying jobs. It is an
    essential part of so many of our Montana communities. For
    example, coal supports over half the budget of our Crow Tribe
    in Montana. Without it, they would be economically devastated.
    It provides high paying jobs in an area where there is frankly
    few other opportunities. In fact, if we were to eliminate those
    jobs in Crow Country, the jobs and the revenue it would have by
    being eliminated, it would have devastating impacts to the
    Tribe.
        I remember we had some protesters that broke into an energy
    summit we were having in Billings, Montana, a few years ago,
    and they had big signs that said, ``Keep it in the ground.''
    And the daughter of the Crow Chairman, Ms. Old Coyote, she went
    up to one of the protesters and said, ``If you keep it in the
    ground, my people will starve.'' And these protesters quietly
    folded up their signs and they walked out the door.
    Unfortunately, President Biden has already taken steps that are
    very concerning for Montana--cancelling the Keystone XL
    pipeline six hours into his presidency, prohibiting new oil and
    gas and coal leases on federal lands--we are already losing
    jobs.
        I was on the phone last night with one of our county
    commissioners in Eastern Montana, and they are struggling
    economically. Our eastern part of our state has a hard time
    making county government budgets balance. One of our county
    commissioners, who was going to receive $7 million a year in
    tax revenues from the Keystone pipeline, $80 million a year
    across Eastern Montana in our state. He said, ``Steve, we just
    had to give notice to 60, 60 union workers that they are losing
    their jobs because of the cancelation of the pipeline.'' I can
    tell you those are 60 of the best jobs that we have in that
    county.
        So the question is, in this important role that you are
    looking to be confirmed into, do you believe the United States
    needs to completely remove oil, gas and coal from its energy
    portfolio?
        Ms. Granholm. No, I do not. I believe, if I can just follow
    up, I believe that if we are going to get to net carbon zero
    emissions by 2050, we cannot do it without coal, oil, gas being
    part of the mix. But without CCUS technology, that's the
    important add that I would make----
        Senator Daines. Right.
        Ms. Granholm. ----is without these carbon management
    technologies that are being researched at the Department of
    Energy, we won't get to the goal of net carbon zero and I think
    we must use those technologies to keep people employed and to
    clean up and to remain energy independent.
        Senator Daines. Yes, thank you, Governor. We will talk
    about that. I really enjoyed our conversation yesterday about
    CCUS. And by the way, in terms of net carbon neutral, the
    Keystone Pipeline is net carbon neutral. That is what has
    people scratching their heads, saying it is the most
    environmentally sound way to transport a liquid and has the
    least impact, in fact, it is carbon neutral as it relates to
    that transportation means.
        I am glad you brought up CCUS. As you know, after years of
    work this Committee passed a very forward-looking energy bill
    that included major advancements in carbon capture investment
    and commercialization. One of the bills that was included was
    the EFFECT Act. It is a bill that I worked on with both the
    Ranking Member and the Chairman. This bill established a large-
    scale CCUS pilot project at an existing power plant. And as we
    talked yesterday, I think Colstrip Power Plant in Montana is
    uniquely suited for this DOE-funded pilot project. It would
    create high paying jobs in Montana, importantly, reduce
    emissions and get us on this path of a commonsense kind of
    balanced energy portfolio.
        Governor, would you commit to working with me and Montanans
    to bring a CCUS project to our state?
        Ms. Granholm. I'll certainly commit to working with you and
    take a look at it. I look forward to being briefed on it
    further. I think the DOE did a study on it a couple of years
    ago, but I look forward to following up with you and working
    with you on it.
        Senator Daines. Thank you.
        Well, you are going to find this is a great Committee. We
    have a great Chairman, a great Ranking Member that seeks to
    find balance----
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Daines. ----in terms of ways to our energy going
    forward here for our country. So thanks for your consideration,
    thanks for being here today.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Sanders.
        Senator Sanders. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me
    thank Senator Murkowski for the great job that she did as Chair
    as well. She and I do not agree on every issue, but she ran a
    non-partisan, open-minded Committee, and we appreciate that.
        Governor, the scientific community suggests to us that if
    we do not transform, not only our energy system, but the global
    energy system, there will be irreparable underlying damage done
    to communities throughout our country and the world, and that
    the situation is getting more dire every day. Do you agree with
    that assessment?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Sanders. The good news is that while--when we
    transform the energy world, there will be dislocation, and no
    one can deny that. What the economists tell us is that we have
    the potential to create a hell of a lot more jobs in energy
    efficiency, sustainable energy, and all the technologies you
    have been talking about, than we lose. Do you have a sense of
    how many good-paying, new, hopefully union jobs we can create
    if we are aggressive in transforming our energy system?
        Ms. Granholm. I do know the goal was to create 10 million
    in the United States using these technologies. Huge
    opportunity.
        Senator Sanders. That is extraordinary. And while there
    will be, clearly, as we make the transformation, the loss of
    some jobs, no question about it, correct me if I am wrong, but
    10 million is a hell of a lot more jobs being created than
    being lost. Is that correct?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Sanders. All right, let me ask you this. If,
    magically, the United States did everything we could to
    transform our energy system and cut back on carbon emissions,
    we still have the rest of the world out there. This is a
    problem that cannot be solved by any one nation. Can you talk a
    little bit--and I know we have John Kerry who is going to be
    working on these issues as well, but we are going to have to be
    reaching out in a way that we have never done, to China, to
    Russia, to India, to Brazil, and to countries all over the
    world, to get them onboard. Do you have any sense of how we can
    do that?
        Ms. Granholm. Well, part of the Executive Order that was
    issued today really emphasized this very issue, elevating the
    importance of our international reach and partnership with, not
    just economic allies, but also competitors, like China. And
    this is another reason why I think it was, it had a lot of
    foresight in appointing John Kerry to be the climate envoy, I
    think is the title.
        Senator Sanders. Czar is what I think it is affectionately
    called.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was czar, but----
        [Laughter.]
        One way or the other, it's a powerful position that signals
    our leadership, that we are back and it was the importance of
    re-entering the Paris Accord as well, but we did not, we could
    not be an outlier in this and we need to lead by example, but
    also lead by bringing our allies and competitors along with us.
        Senator Sanders. Look, I mean, China is going to be hard
    hit by climate. There will be sections of that country
    underwater. Do you see possibilities of us working together
    with China, India, and other countries?
        Ms. Granholm. I do, but I know that our eyes must be wide
    open.
        Senator Sanders. Right, right.
        Let me ask you this. We talk about the destruction that
    climate change is and will be bringing to the world. We talk
    about the potential of good-paying jobs. One of the things I
    think we don't talk about enough is that, in fact, sustainable
    energy could lower electric bills for a whole lot of people.
    Just Jane and I, in our home in Burlington, Vermont, which is
    not the sunniest, you know, we are not Florida or Arizona, but
    I think we spent something like $10,000 with the tax credits
    that we received, to install solar. Our electricity bill has
    gone down, I think, by 90 percent. We are going to pay it off
    in seven years. That means over a 20-year period we are
    reducing our electric bill by 50 percent. Is that a point that
    we are getting out enough, and what are we going to do, you
    know, for the average working-class family, who today may not
    be able to afford that $10,000? How do we say, we can lower
    your electric bill if you move to solar? Do you have any
    thoughts on that?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I think this is a role for the
    Department of Energy in addition to the jobs piece. For
    example, the Energy Efficiency Acts that Congress has passed
    over the years have saved families, just on efficiency, about
    $500 per family, per year has been amazingly successful. The
    same thing we should be taking a look at how, as a nation, we
    can reduce the upfront costs of installing solar for every--in
    every state because the sun shines everywhere.
        Senator Sanders. So in other words, if I lend you $10,000
    to invest in solar, and you don't see any increase in your
    electric bill, in other words, you are going to be paying off
    the loan.
        Ms. Granholm. Right.
        Senator Sanders. Rather than an electric bill. Is that an
    approach that makes sense to you?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes. I would say that my, I mean, I did the
    same thing and I pay every month as well, but our overall
    energy bill has dropped significantly, even by paying off the
    loan. And that's the kind of information we want to get out
    there.
        Senator Sanders. That is right, and I think we don't talk
    about that enough.
        Ms. Granholm. Right.
        Senator Sanders. Lastly, Vermont has been a leader for many
    years in a whole variety of environmental issues, including
    energy efficiency and sustainable energy. I would love to work
    with you to see how we can strengthen our connection with some
    of the national labs, including the National Renewable Energy
    Lab. Is that something we can work together on?
        Ms. Granholm. Of course, of course.
        Senator Sanders. Okay, thank you very much.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you.
        Senator Hoeven, do we have him on virtual? He is not on
    yet? If not, then we have Senator King.
        Senator King.
        Senator King. I want to join my colleagues in thanking
    Senator Murkowski. Senator, you have done a wonderful job as
    Chairman of this Committee. I don't care if Joe Manchin is
    taking over nominally, in my heart, you will always be the
    Chair of the Committee.
        [Laughter.]
        I really appreciate the work that you have done.
        Governor, welcome. I want to touch on a couple of things
    rather quickly. My dear friend, the Senator from Louisiana,
    talked about natural gas prices and the effect of increases on
    those prices. The most serious threat to the domestic price of
    natural gas is unfettered exports, and under the Natural Gas
    Act, as you talked earlier in your testimony, you have to make
    a public interest finding. I hope you do that analysis, because
    we now have applications for, the last time I looked, more than
    half of the domestic production of natural gas for export. That
    cannot do anything but drive price up, as it has in other
    places in the world. So I hope that you will have your staff do
    really good elasticity studies about the effect of those
    additional export capacities on domestic prices. That has to be
    part of the analysis. If that is not public interest, I don't
    know what is. Will you commit to me to look at that aspect when
    you are looking at these applications?
        Ms. Granholm. Certainly. In the balancing test that's
    required under the Natural Gas Act, that would be one of the
    things we would look at.
        Senator King. Thank you.
        We have talked about wind and wind power. Offshore wind is
    one of the greatest potential energy sources, and the real
    frontier is floating where the continental shelf is too deep. I
    want to mention that the leading research on floating offshore
    wind technology is being done at the University of Maine. At
    Orono, they have been working with the Department over the past
    five years on the Aqua Ventus project. I commend that to you
    because if we are going to tap the higher capacity factor and
    the enormous potential for offshore wind, it is going to have
    to be in deeper water, and that means some kind of floating
    technology issue, as I mentioned.
        So I would like to invite you to the composites lab at the
    University to see the amazing work that is being done up there
    in this field.
        Ms. Granholm. I would very much like to come and see that.
        Senator King. Next issue. Somebody asked me my priorities
    on energy and I said, it is storage, storage, and number three
    is storage.
        [Laughter.]
        There is research money in the bill that we just passed.
    There is no more important work that you can be doing. And the
    example is, someone earlier mentioned the revolution in energy
    production by hydraulic fracking which, in fact, was invented
    in large measure because of support from research funds at the
    Department of Energy. If we can break through with cost-
    effective storage, that really opens the door to full
    electrification and full renewable electrification. So I hope
    that is an emphasis that you will maintain in your work at the
    Department.
        Ms. Granholm. It is and you may be aware that President
    Biden has established a desire to create some Earthshots, as he
    called them, sort of like the SunShot that was previously done
    that brought down the price of solar. And one of those
    Earthshots is to reduce the cost of utility-scale battery
    storage by 90 percent.
        Senator King. Well, that is where we need to go, and once
    that happens, then technologies that are based upon
    interruptible sources like wind and solar essentially become
    baseload, and that is really crucial.
        A final point I wanted to touch on, and I know Senator
    Cortez Masto is going to be following me, is nuclear waste
    disposal. I live about 20 miles from my nuclear plant that was
    closed about 15 years ago. We have what amounts to a high-level
    nuclear waste site on the coast of Maine, and it is because of
    a 70-year unmet promise by the Federal Government to deal with
    nuclear waste. I believe that nuclear development has a low
    carbon future in this country, but I am reluctant to support
    significant new development until we meet that promise.
        So I hope that is something that you will pay attention to.
    I know Senator Cortez Masto is going to steer you away from
    Yucca Mountain, but we really do have to be honest with
    ourselves about the fact that what we have now are, I don't
    know how many, maybe 100 effective, high-level nuclear sites
    scattered around the country. That is not good, that is not
    safe from a national security or from an environmental point of
    view.
        Ms. Granholm. I agree with you. It is a very sticky
    situation and clearly, we have to, maybe, look at what the Blue
    Ribbon Commission did on this which was to engage in some
    consensus, site-based consensus, strategies that allow us to
    determine where that waste should go.
        Senator King. Thank you.
        Thank you, Governor. Congratulations on your nomination,
    and I certainly look forward to working with you.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Manchin. Senator Cortez Masto.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Let me echo my colleagues to thank you, Senator Murkowski.
    You have done an incredible job in working with everybody on
    the Committee to make sure all of our voices were heard and
    working with our legislation. So thank you for that great work.
        Governor Granholm, congratulations. Welcome to your
    husband. And thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
        I am going to get right to it, and utilize some of the
    questions that I have that are very specific to Nevada. My
    colleague from Maine highlighted one of them, Yucca Mountain.
    We know it has been a failed policy. The Nuclear Waste Act has
    been there since 1980. We still have challenges with really
    addressing the high-level nuclear waste storage that we have in
    this country.
        Yucca Mountain is not the answer. And the couple of
    questions that I have for you is first, what is this
    Administration's position on Yucca Mountain?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, the Administration opposes the use of
    Yucca Mountain for storage of nuclear waste.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        And will you commit the Department to working with Congress
    to develop safe and workable alternatives to Yucca Mountain?
        Ms. Granholm. Absolutely.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Okay.
        And will you be sure to have the staff responsible for
    nuclear waste planning and management engage with my office?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        As well as the Office of Senator Rosen?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. And then you mentioned it, the Blue
    Ribbon panel. We know that the Blue Ribbon panel made
    recommendations around a consent-based siting process. Senator
    Rosen and I, along with the entire Nevada delegation, will
    reintroduce this legislation to include Nevada in that consent-
    based siting. Is that something that you and the Administration
    would support?
        Ms. Granholm. Absolutely.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        The final question around Yucca is just to make sure that
    if you are confirmed, you and the Administration would commit
    to engaging the states, tribes and key stakeholders on
    developing that consent-based siting?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Let me jump to one other issue, which is the storage of
    plutonium. Nevada has a National Security Site. We are very
    proud of it. It creates jobs. We are an important part of the
    national security, as you well know, in this country. In 2018,
    the State of Nevada learned that the Trump Administration had
    secretly shipped plutonium intended for weapons production to
    Nevada, to be stored indefinitely at the Nevada National
    Security Site. In working with the Department of Energy, we
    came to an agreement, which the state used to secure a
    settlement with the Department last year to begin removing the
    plutonium from Nevada.
        What is the current status of DOE's and the National
    Nuclear Security Administration's plan for removing the
    plutonium, if you know?
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, the plan is to follow the agreement
    that you negotiated.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
        Let me just add this. In 2014, the Obama Administration and
    the State of Nevada agreed to establish a senior level DOE-
    Nevada Working Group to address mutual concerns about
    operations at the Nevada National Security Site. Unfortunately
    the Trump Administration did not follow through on that
    agreement. Will you commit to re-establishing the DOE-Nevada
    Working Group with regular meetings of senior level personnel?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, I will.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Then let me address, in general, the conversation because I
    so agree. Listen, I support, really, a diverse energy portfolio
    for all states. Every state is going to be unique. In Nevada,
    we have natural gas. We have geothermal. We have wind. We have
    solar. But the outcome for all of us should be reducing that
    carbon footprint. And I do believe an innovation economy is
    coming, if it is not already here, and the technology is going
    to give us that opportunity to really engage in a clean energy
    portfolio for so many of us. It is going to create jobs. It is
    going to move us in that direction, and there are opportunities
    to bring everybody along with us.
        Let me talk a little bit about electric vehicles, because
    this is something that I so agree with you on. I have a suite
    of electric vehicle legislation. One of them is included in the
    infrastructure package. If you come to Nevada, and I have
    offered that to you before, you will see in some of our rural
    communities that we already have the infrastructure for
    electric vehicles. I am very proud of that. But let me ask you:
    one of the pieces of legislation that I have, and I am going to
    be introducing, is to establish a working group that is co-led
    by DOE to improve that coordination among local, state, and
    federal stakeholders to establish a clear strategy and national
    electric vehicle framework that includes not just cars, but
    buses as well.
        Is that something that you could work with us on or would
    be willing to engage on?
        Ms. Granholm. Absolutely.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that.
        I notice my time is up. The rest of the questions I have
    for you I will submit for the record.
        Thank you again, and congratulations.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you. Thank you, Senator.
        Do we have anybody else online? Nobody else online. If not,
    we will go to a second round, if you are okay with that.
        Does anybody need a break?
        [No response.]
        If nobody needs a break, we will go to a second round. We
    will start with Senator Murkowski, Chairman Murkowski.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Governor Granholm, I hope that you have appreciated the
    range of questions that you have heard here today. I was just
    sharing with my friend and colleague here. I am riveted here in
    the conversation that has been going back and forth. Since I am
    not really chairing anymore, I don't have to sit here, but I
    think what is being discussed today is so significant and it is
    so important to the country that I really want to hear your
    views here. I hope what you have heard is that in certain parts
    of the country, we are very much your resource anchor whether
    it is West Virginia coal, or Wyoming coal, or whether it is oil
    from Alaska, whether it is coal from Alaska, we are your
    resource anchor.
        Now I will let my colleagues speak to the manufacturing
    capabilities in both Wyoming and West Virginia, but in Alaska
    we don't manufacture a lot. What we do is we provide for all of
    you so that in Michigan, in Ohio, in other parts of the
    country, we are doing all this buy America, made in America,
    but it has to start from somewhere. And so, when we are talking
    about this transition to the clean energy jobs and, believe me,
    Alaskans want those clean energy jobs just like all Americans
    do. We want to be able to access those resources that we have
    in the ground, whether it be oil, whether it be natural gas,
    whether it be coal or minerals. We want to be able to access
    that in a way that is environmentally responsible, that does
    work toward reduced emissions. But we still recognize that you
    are still going to need what we have.
        And so, when we are talking about this transition, we have
    to realize that that transition and where these jobs are and
    what these jobs are, are going to be different depending on
    where we are. And so, for us in resource-based states I just
    hope you hear the concern. It is not that I want to keep us
    back in, you know, back in time. I want us to be able to move
    forward. We are a state that is seeing the daily impact of
    climate change. And so, we know we need to be aggressive, but
    we also know that we have to be the provider, if you will. And
    so, as we are talking about how you can come in and assure
    whether it is the worker in Louisiana or in Mississippi or in
    West Virginia, that your job may change. I hope you appreciate
    and understand the anxiety in families and the anxiety in
    communities and in whole states, in whole states.
        My State of Alaska, it is our oil resources that have
    allowed us to build our schools, build our roads. And so, I
    share this with you with a great deal of passion because while
    we transition, we have to ensure that the assets that we have
    in the ground that will allow us to be energy secure and
    economically and environmentally secure. You are going to need
    us. And so, when I think about the asset that we have in
    Alaska, the Trans-Alaska Pipeline--we have been flowing oil to
    help the people of California so that they don't have to import
    as much oil from Venezuela or from the Middle East. We think
    that that actually helps. We think that our mineral base helps
    the country. It is not just jobs for us, but it helps us.
        So I hope that you would agree that the resource base, the
    assets that we have, things like the Trans-Alaska Pipeline and
    why it is important to keep it filled up, are important, not
    only from an asset perspective, but for the jobs and the
    security that they provide to the nation.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, Senator, I completely understand this,
    and I so appreciate your sincere passion on the part of people
    you represent who are full of anxiety. I--the experience that I
    had--I feel like I get this so much because of the experience I
    had in Michigan seared my soul on behalf of workers who were
    feeling utter anxiety about who is ever going to hire me. So
    the amazing opportunity we have, as you and I discussed, is for
    states, I mean, Alaska, in particular, because of being a state
    where we can pilot so many different types of technology, but
    as Senator Barrasso has said, as Senator Manchin has said, the
    use of technology allows us to be able to ensure families that
    they can still have a job and we can use technology to reduce
    carbon emissions and that we can still use the resources we
    have and we can reduce carbon emissions.
        I completely understand what you're saying and I appreciate
    your sincere passion on behalf of those you represent. I share
    that, and I look forward to working with you to make sure that
    we keep people employed.
        The Chairman. But I think you see from our Energy Act that
    we passed, we focused keenly on that technology.
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        The Chairman. But again, that technology will allow us to
    be able to harvest these resources because that is what we are
    doing, we are harvesting it. We are harvesting them in a
    cleaner way, but we will still be relying on this base
    resource. And so, I, again, urge you to focus on that.
        Mr. Chairman, if I may, there has not been a question yet
    raised before the Governor here with regards to cybersecurity.
    Of course, we all know the recent news about SolarWinds and the
    hack there, it has really highlighted the need for increased
    coordination throughout the Executive Branch. I personally
    think that the move by the Biden Administration to revoke the
    Executive Order on the Bulk Power System was unwise. I think it
    puts our electric grid at greater risk for cyberattacks. I am
    concerned about that. I think this entire Committee is
    concerned about where we are with the reliability and the
    resilience of the grid when it comes to cyber.
        I am well over my time, but I would ask for your indulgence
    if Governor Granholm can respond to the question about grid
    resilience and security there, because I think it is so
    important.
        Ms. Granholm. It's very important and briefly, I mean, we
    have five million miles of distribution wires, 200,000 miles of
    high voltage electric wires. I haven't been fully briefed on
    the, you know, national security and the confidential aspects
    of the SolarWinds cyber hack, but clearly that's one example
    and we're getting hacked all the time and attacked all the
    time. We will have inside of the DOE a person at a very high
    level that is responsible for making sure that this, the
    response to this, is coordinated. We have to harden our
    electric grid for protection of our energy system. I hope that
    this is a part of the infrastructure package that will be
    coming from the Administration as well, and I look forward to
    working with you on it.
        The Chairman. Well, I think DOE has a very specific and
    very important role as being the sector specific within energy
    when it comes to cyber is very important.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the indulgence.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        Finally, from the great State of North Dakota, we have
    gotten the computer up and running and Senator Hoeven is on.
        Senator Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can you hear me
    all right?
        Senator Manchin. All very good, I am glad. Things are a
    long way away in North Dakota.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, I appreciate you and, of course, our
    Ranking Member, for holding the hearing today.
        Governor Granholm, it is really fantastic to see you again
    and I enjoyed, very much, working with you in our days as
    Governor. You were a tremendous leader then and I believe you
    will be a strong leader for the Department of Energy. So I am
    really looking forward to working with you. I appreciated our
    visit earlier and would just like to pick up on a couple of
    those themes.
        The first one is something that Senator Murkowski was
    talking to you about and that is that I believe that baseload
    supply, in terms of energy, is very, very important and one of
    those very important baseload sources of supply is coal-fired
    electricity. And we actually are working very hard on carbon
    capture and sequestration. I think we have everything in place
    to do a partnership with our industry in our state and we now
    have passed 45Q which is a tax credit, because again, we could
    do it technologically, but we have to be able to do it on a
    commercially-viable basis. We have 45Q in place. We have the
    regulatory regime in place.
        In our State of North Dakota, starting 12 years ago, we
    worked, went to work, and passed legislation so you would have
    the legal regulatory environment in place to address the core
    space. We have EPA approval. As I said, we have been working on
    this for 12 years. And what we need help with now are two
    things. One is, you know, the front-end cost to put the
    technology on the plants. That is Project Tundra where we have
    a partnership with DOE. We need your help on that. We have
    appropriated money already, and we need to continue to have
    funding there to get the front-end cost addressed and
    partnerships with the state and our companies. So your support
    for Project Tundra is very important to us.
        And then also, the Loan Guarantee because the companies
    will still have to bear a lot of expense to put that, to
    retrofit those plants for the technology. There are two sources
    of guarantees. Both are funded. The money is there. One is
    through the Department of Energy, and the other is through
    USDA's Rural Development. Rural Development in some cases might
    even be easier to access. But both those guarantees are there
    and they are funded. The money is there to do this and this is
    about cracking the code, just like we did with horizontal
    drilling, this is about cracking the code with carbon
    sequestration and addressing, not only keeping that baseload
    power, keeping those great jobs, but actually capturing that
    CO2 and storing it safely for the long-term.
        So I would ask for your thoughts and your commitment to
    help us get that done.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I'm excited about Project Tundra. I'm
    excited about using your state as an example of the regulatory
    regime to facilitate CCUS, and I look forward to working with
    you on it. And yes, you have my support.
        Senator Hoeven. And you are coming to see us, right?
        Ms. Granholm. I'm coming to see you.
        Senator Hoeven. ----like Joe Manchin, Joe Manchin has
    always wanted to come to North Dakota. We told him not yet,
    but--we will have a great time--we will eventually invite him
    up but----
        Ms. Granholm. Joe, you and I.
        Senator Manchin. Jennifer and I will be there together. We
    will bring John with us. The three of us will come up.
        Senator Hoeven. Well, that would be great. I mean it, and
    we would have fun and--I am sorry, Secretary, you are willing
    to come join us, come see what we are doing?
        Senator Manchin. I'm sorry, what?
        Senator Hoeven. You are willing to come see what we are
    doing, with or without Chairman Manchin?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Are you asking me? Yes, absolutely.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, I'm sorry.
        Ms. Granholm. With or without him.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, we would love to have both of you,
    very much. Thank you.
        The other is in the area of federal lands. We have to be
    able to access energy on federal lands of all kinds and, you
    know, that is true on our Native American lands as well. In
    some cases, it is renewable. In some cases, it is fossil fuel.
    But we have to be able to access energy on federal lands,
    safely and soundly, with good environmental stewardship and
    then we have to have transportation. Again, this is for both
    fossil or traditional energy and renewable. We have to have
    transmission lines. We have to have pipelines. So please
    address that, Governor Granholm, if you could.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I'm very eager to work with FERC to get
    transmission lines established, ASAP. I feel like this is a
    conversation that's been had for years about having the right
    transmission lines in place to take power from the places of
    clean power, especially wind, like you see in North Dakota from
    places that are generating it to the power and load centers.
    So, I--this is a very high priority to make that happen, and I
    look forward to working with you on that.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, we need your help, and we know that
    you know how to accomplish these things. We know you understand
    the importance of the jobs and we understand your commitment to
    the environment, but we have to have your help.
        The last thing I will finish up with. I am looking at
    Governor Angus King, he was Governor with us too back in the
    day, and he is always looking at new, innovative and creative
    things in energy. One of places that is doing a lot of that is
    the Energy and Environmental Research Center (EERC) at the
    University of North Dakota. We have a partnership on the carbon
    capture and storage, and we are really trying to drive that
    technology forward. They are also working on a partnership at
    the Department of Energy on renewable types of energy as well.
        I am asking for your commitment to continue these
    partnerships that we have with DOE and the EERC and even look
    to help grow them because of the incredible role that
    innovation is playing in energy development.
        Ms. Granholm. You have my commitment.
        Senator Hoeven. Again, thank you and I look forward to
    working with you.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        As we continue our second round, I have a few comments to
    make, and then we will go to Senator Barrasso and then we have
    Senator King and Senator Cortez Masto still online, if they
    wish to have a second round. So we will continue with that.
        Let me just say this. You and I had a great conversation on
    some things that are going on, and I just want to say this. Our
    first hearing will be next week. Senator Barrasso and I talked
    about it. It is called Climate Baseline. There are so many
    deniers out there of what is going on around the world, whose
    fault it is, and this and that, but what we can do to achieve,
    truly, some climate changes that will be better for our
    environment and better for our children and grandchildren, our
    next generation. We need to get to the facts first. I said, if
    you are able, everybody should come to this Committee with all
    the opinions they have and all the input, but we have to work
    off the same baseline and the facts. So once we establish that,
    we think we can accomplish an awful lot.
        With that, I have said this, I can only talk to you about
    my State of West Virginia, and my state has been a heavy lifter
    for over a century, and fought in every war. We have a lot of
    patriots as far as the military veterans, but most importantly,
    our coal producers have produced the energy this country has
    needed to defend ourselves in every war, to win the wars, and
    propel the industrial might. We continue to do that as one of
    the leading coal producers with my colleague here in Wyoming.
    These people feel like they have been left behind, and I think
    we mentioned that too. Just give them an opportunity to live
    where they traditionally lived and where their heritage is, and
    where they want to be, but direct jobs in that direction and
    don't just leave them in a barren wasteland. That is where
    there is total animosity, and right now there are a lot of
    concerns that we are hearing coming out of President Biden's
    Executive Orders. People are very much concerned that they are
    going to leave us behind again. It is going down this path
    where the energy that we provided will no longer be needed, and
    there are those who have aspirations of elimination in energy
    sources such as all the fossil fuels, leaving it behind. We are
    going in a different direction.
        The transition might happen. We don't know when it is going
    to happen, but we are accelerating more quickly than we ever
    thought we would before. The only thing I am saying on that is,
    we think technology is the way to go. We think innovation, not
    elimination, will make that happen. And everybody can be
    brought along and taken care of if we can direct it and
    recognize the people that have done the heavy lifting. That is
    the animosity, the built-up, pent-up, concerns that people
    have, and that is what has caused the divide in the rural and
    urban areas, because most of these heavy lifting states are in
    rural areas.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Manchin. You can see the political divide and how
    deep it is getting. So I think you have a golden opportunity,
    Governor, to really try to help bridge that, I really do. I
    know your personality. I know you well enough to know that you
    will reach across the aisle and be sympathetic to the people
    that basically are saying, just give me a chance to provide for
    myself and my family. That is all they want. And with that, the
    market will change.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Manchin. What they don't want is for you to throw
    them a life preserver that is weighted down with an anchor when
    they are trying to survive, and that is what they think has
    been thrown to them in previous administrations. And we have
    seen even with the previous administration of President Trump,
    we have lost more coal jobs than ever before. It is the market
    that is transitioning. We have to find everything we can in
    West Virginia and in Wyoming, in all of our energy-producing
    states, especially fossil-producing states, that they have an
    opportunity to continue to contribute.
        That is my two cents, for what it is worth, but I can tell
    you, we need to bring this country together. You have a chance
    to help us heal that, and energy is the biggest thing that can
    heal us and bring us together, more so than anything else,
    because it is what divided us too.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah.
        Senator Manchin. So your thoughts on that, if you will.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, no, I mean you've said it so
    beautifully, as you do, Senator Manchin. I cannot tell you how
    important this is to me, personally, is to make sure that we do
    not leave people behind. When I was in Michigan we created a
    program called ``No Worker Left Behind'' for that reason,
    because people who have been disproportionately affected by
    these transitions which are really hard, feel like they have
    been, they're unseen and they've been forgotten and that's not
    what's going to happen. In fact, you know, the Biden
    Administration has pledged to commit 40 percent of the benefits
    of this clean energy transition to communities that have been
    left behind and that includes environmental justice communities
    as well as communities in transition.
        And so, the proof will be in the pudding. That's what I'll
    have to say, is we have to commit to getting job providers into
    communities with not skills that are completely off for the
    people who are there respecting where they are and make sure
    that we put them to work and train them for those jobs and give
    them hope for the future and keep their children there as well
    who also want to be part of a future-looking energy balance.
        Senator Manchin. Well, the thing I would say to my friend,
    President Biden, and I know we know him well and he has been a
    dear friend, but the thing of it is, make sure that the
    Administration, if they want to pause and look and evaluate
    what has happened and what direction we should be going, that
    is great because we can all have input. If they come out and
    say we are going to eliminate this, or put a moratorium on
    that, it makes it much more difficult for us, in a bipartisan
    way, to be helpful and to be constructive. I think they are
    listening, I hope they do, and we look forward to working with
    this Administration and with you in your new role too.
        I look forward to supporting you in that role, and I will
    do everything I can to make sure that we can advance that issue
    because I know you will sit down and work with us. And with
    that, with my partner, I turn it over to Senator Barrasso.
        Ms. Granholm. Great.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. I
    agree with what you have just had to say as well as what
    Senator Hoeven had to say, Senator Murkowski, just had to say
    because collectively we are the resource anchor. That was
    Senator Murkowski's, but that is West Virginia, that is North
    Dakota, that is Wyoming, that is Alaska. We are the resource
    anchor for the country.
        So when President Biden says he wants to achieve a carbon
    pollution free power sector by 2035, California has already
    committed itself to a carbon free power sector by 2045 and last
    year we witnessed the results of that. California had to impose
    rolling blackouts on millions of its residents. The state had
    to waive environmental regulations so they could run large
    numbers of emergency diesel generators, and even then they
    could not keep the lights on. So to make matters worse,
    California residents are already paying some of the highest
    electricity prices in the country for unreliable energy.
        So what are the facts that show it is possible to actually
    push the entire nation down this path and to do so ten years
    ahead of the California schedule without causing the blackouts,
    without having unacceptable risks and without driving up
    electricity prices?
        Ms. Granholm. We know that there are places in the country
    that have gotten to that amount, but we need a lot more work
    and a shoulder to the wheel. That's 15 years from now. I know
    the goal is there at 100 percent, but the important goal, I
    think, for this Committee is as well, the 100 percent net
    carbon zero emissions. And I'd like to talk about emissions
    because I think that is something that technology can address
    that keeps people employed and so to be able to work with you
    on that.
        And I know that you are a forward thinker on this, on
    technology and you're not a climate denier, you are, you
    understand the importance of technology. And that's why I'm so
    impressed by the members of this Committee and especially the
    members who do represent fossil-based economies, because I know
    that you see the opportunity for that net zero and the use of
    technology to be able to get there.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, then I invite you to Wyoming, to
    the University of Wyoming School of Energy Resources where we
    have our integrated test center, working on carbon capture, air
    capture, direct capture and then putting it into products that
    are marketable and----
        Ms. Granholm. Yes.
        Senator Barrasso. ----resold. The Chairman and I, as well
    as Senator Murkowski and Senator Cantwell and Senator
    Whitehouse have gone to locations around the world where
    research is being done to do that, the XPrize competition. You
    may have seen Elon Musk has just committed $100 million to
    research to do just the sorts of things that we have been
    leading the way in Wyoming. So I would welcome you there. That,
    to me, is a goal.
        Right now, you know, I am taking a look at what President
    Biden said, he said he is going to ensure 100 percent of new
    sales for light- and medium-duty vehicles will be zero emission
    and cut the carbon footprint of our national building stock in
    half by 2035. In other words, his Administration not only wants
    to create this carbon free sector by 2035, but he wants to
    saddle the electric grid with the additional burden of powering
    most cars and trucks in the country, half of the buildings that
    currently use natural gas. No one wants to see a repeat of
    California failures.
        So can you point to, you said there are some places, but
    can you point to any state agencies or electric grid operators
    or utilities that have committed to use such aggressive goals
    without warning people of the risks that they face if they try
    to clamp it down?
        Ms. Granholm. Well, I would say, I mean, having lived in
    California for this past year for that, I mean, a lot of the
    blackouts were due to, honestly, wind, fire, because of the
    conditions of the climate and it was less about the security of
    the grid and more about what was happening because of the
    warming of the planet and the cause of the additional fire
    danger as a result.
        However----
        Senator Barrasso. And also, the way that the forests have
    been managed and all the other issues related to that.
        Ms. Granholm. Right, and a lot of that was federal forests
    too.
        But yes, there has to be a better management of the
    forests. I don't want to argue about it with you at all. I want
    to be able to reach across and be a partner in achieving the
    technologies to get there. I do think that we have so much
    opportunity in building technologies and the structures, in
    materials that we reduce CO2 footprint of buildings,
    the building sector.
        I think that we can work together. I think that the example
    of the bill that you guys did pass at the end of last year is
    an example of being able to find the common ground that allows
    us to keep people employed, employ new people in this clean
    energy sector and use technology as a way of addressing
    CO2 emissions.
        Senator Barrasso. Yes, you know, last year the Governor of
    California signed an Executive Order banning the sales of new
    vehicles with internal combustion engines by 2035. President
    Biden says he wants 100 percent of new sales for light- and
    medium-duty vehicles will be zero emission. You are a former
    Governor of Michigan. Do you support banning sales of new
    vehicles with internal combustion engines?
        Ms. Granholm. I think it's, I mean, I don't mean to
    interrupt, because I do drive the Chevy Bolt and it's been
    amazing and the best car I've ever had with incredible power. I
    would love to see a big goal and I know it's going to take us a
    while to get there and sometimes leaders have to say big goals
    to move things in the direction that they would like to see.
    But I do know that the auto industry itself, as Senator
    Stabenow said, is making big investments in this, not just the
    domestic auto industry, but internationally as well and it's
    very exciting to see.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
        I will say that President Biden does enjoy a Corvette that
    makes a lot of noise. I do too, and that is going to be around
    for a while. I don't think he has any intentions of selling his
    either.
        [Laughter.]
        With that, we have one final Senator, Senator King, for a
    second round.
        Senator King, I am sorry.
        Senator King. One of the things we are struggling with in
    this hearing is that the changes in employment patterns
    occasioned by the movement to a carbon free economy are
    obvious, and they are occurring. What is hard to calculate is
    the changes, the drastic changes to our economy, if we don't
    make this transition and the impacts all over the country in
    agriculture, in industry, in fisheries, in all of our coastal
    resources, everything from water in California, you name it.
    There is an enormous cost on the other side that has to be part
    of this equation. Those of us who are concerned about climate
    change and are doing something about it, it is not because it
    feels good or it looks good on a brochure. There are very
    practical national security and other implications of this that
    we really have to take account of and move forward on.
        Secondly, I just want to emphasize what Joe Manchin,
    Senator Manchin, talked about, which is what I call stranded
    workers, workers who are in traditional industries when there
    are changes. This is a part of our history. What is different
    today about our transitions is time. In 1850, something like 94
    percent of American workers were working in agriculture in one
    way or another. Now it is probably five or six percent. That is
    a huge, earth-shaking transition, but it took 170 years. Now we
    are seeing transitions that take decades and sometimes, in some
    communities, a matter of years.
        So I agree with Senator Manchin and Governor Granholm, we
    have to be thinking about how to ease these transitions, and
    how to take account of them and not just say, oh, well, we are
    not going to do this and that, and those people can do
    something else. Often they can't, particularly in the place
    where they work. So we have to be thinking about a strategy of
    protecting and transitioning people to a different economy in a
    hurry, and it can't be something that just is an after thought
    or something we hope will happen by the nature of things.
        So Governor Granholm, I hope you will be thinking about
    that in your counsel to the Administration. The goals are
    important for the country, but there are going to be transition
    problems along the way, and they should be dealt with
    consciously, deliberately, and compassionately, and I hope that
    is something you will take back to the President.
        Ms. Granholm. One thousand percent.
        Senator King. And by the way, you noticed we had Governor
    Hoeven, Governor Manchin, myself and yourself. The real secret
    society that runs this place is former governors, just so you
    know.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Manchin. Trust me, she knows that, Senator.
        [Laughter.]
        Former Governor. That is why she is sitting there.
        [Laughter.]
        And we have Senator Barrasso to finish up.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        You will be happy to know, Governor, that you had committed
    to even coming back at two o'clock for additional questions. We
    are going to be done well before that. So I do have a couple of
    quick questions I wanted to go to.
        You mentioned the importance of critical minerals and when
    we talked on the phone you talked about developing our own
    soup-to-nuts supply chain. Do you agree that accessing some of
    these mineral deposits are going to have to be on federal land?
    That is going to be necessary to establish our own supply
    because that is where some of these minerals are.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, that's certainly possible.
        Senator Barrasso. All right.
        With regard to the renewable fuel standard, unlike larger
    oil refineries, the small refineries don't have the economies
    of scale to comply with our nation's biofuels mandate, the
    Renewable Fuel Standard. That is why Congress allowed the small
    refineries to petition the EPA for what is known as a hardship
    relief. Before deciding whether to grant relief, the
    Administrator of the EPA is required to consult with the
    Secretary of Energy and that is why I bring this up. Under the
    last two administrations, Federal Courts have rebuked EPA and
    the Department of Energy for failing to account for all the
    challenges that the small refineries face under the Renewable
    Fuel Standard. So it has happened to both the last two
    administrations.
        If confirmed, will you ensure that the Department fully
    accounts for the challenges that small refineries are facing
    when evaluating the petitions?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, sir.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        I want to talk a bit about uranium because it is a big, key
    part of the Department of Energy. For years, Russia and its
    satellites have unfairly dumped uranium into the U.S. market as
    they tried to lower prices and command the world market. As a
    result, American imports, over 90 percent of them are uranium
    from other countries. Over 40 percent comes in from Russia,
    Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and America's uranium production as a
    result of these forced onto our markets here has dropped to
    levels we haven't seen since the early '50s because they have
    undercut our markets in an effort to try to monopolize the
    world market coming out of Russia. So it is critical that we
    maintain our ability to produce and process our own nuclear
    energy. It is our largest source of carbon free electricity in
    which, why we have talked about the nuclear reactors and the
    modern and updated and some of the things that Bill Gates and
    others are doing in that line.
        Last year, the Department requested and Congress provided
    funding to establish a National Uranium Reserve. Can I have
    your commitment that, if confirmed, you will be, you will
    complete the establishment of that reserve, establish a
    purchasing program and buy American produced uranium this year
    which is something that we passed last year?
        Ms. Granholm. I will certainly act upon the instructions of
    Congress.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        In addition to our foreign adversaries like Russia, the
    Department of Energy has actually dumped uranium into the U.S.
    market. This is something we talked about when Secretary Moniz
    was Secretary of Energy and Secretary Perry in the past. It has
    undercut the price of uranium and resulted in the cancellation
    of uranium projects and the loss of lots of jobs in my home
    state of Wyoming. The Government Accountability Office
    repeatedly found that the Department of Energy's actions
    violated federal law. Thankfully, Secretary Perry largely ended
    the practice. And I am asking you to have your assurance that,
    if confirmed, you will not put the Department's excess uranium
    into the market.
        Ms. Granholm. Yeah, I have to be briefed on this, but I
    certainly hear what you're saying and I'll look at it and work
    with you on it.
        Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
        Finally, Wyoming is the leading producer and has some of
    the nation's largest reserves of coal, natural gas, oil and
    uranium. We have it all. We also have world class researchers
    studying carbon capture technologies. We talked about the
    University of Wyoming, in Laramie, and in our Integrated Test
    Center, outside of Gillette. The state is the proud host of the
    Department of Energy's CarbonSAFE program and it examines the
    potential of geologic formations to store carbon dioxide, all
    along the lines of getting to the goals that you have talked
    about. So in July last year, I sent to the former Secretary of
    Energy Brouillette a letter encouraging the Department to
    establish a presence in the State of Wyoming.
        If confirmed, will you give serious consideration to this
    request to create a Department of Energy Office in Wyoming?
        Ms. Granholm. Yes, very interesting. I'd love to take a
    look at that and work with you on it.
        Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you so much, Governor, and
    congratulations on your nomination.
        Ms. Granholm. Thank you.
        Senator Manchin. Governor Granholm, let me just thank you
    again. And Dan, thank you for being here. We appreciate you all
    very much for the service you have given to our country and
    what you continue to do.
        Not only did you come prepared, you came and showed us the
    diverse knowledge you have of the energy portfolio our country
    needs in order to maintain our energy independence, and a
    practical, pragmatic way of moving forward. So we wish you
    nothing but good fortunes, and I look forward, and I know that
    Senator Barrasso does, we look forward to working with you, if
    you are confirmed, which I assume that you will be, very
    strongly, and look forward to start working as quickly as we
    can.
        We are going to say thank you again. With that, this
    meeting is adjourned--I am sorry. Members will have until 8:30
    p.m. today to submit additional questions for the record,
    whoever might not have been able to get their questions in. So
    we look forward to that up to 8:30 tonight. Thank you, we are
    adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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