[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
117th Congress Printed for the use of the
2d Session Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Demining Ukraine:
A Pre-requisite for Recovery
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
DECEMBER 8, 2022
Briefing of the
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
____________________
Washington: 2023
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
234 Ford House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-1901
[email protected]
http://www.csce.gov
@HelsinkiComm
Legislative Branch Commissioners
SENATE HOUSE
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland STEVE COHEN, Tennessee Co-Chairman
Chairman ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina
TINA SMITH, Minnesota GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina MARC VEASEY, Texas
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island JOE WILSON, South Carolina
ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
Executive Branch Commissioners
Department of State, to be appointed
Department of Defense, to be appointed
Department of Commerce, to be appointed
[II]
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[III]
Demining Ukraine:
A Pre-requisite for Recovery
__________
December 8, 2022
Page
COMMISSIONERS
Representative Steve Cohen, from Tennessee, Co-Chairman 2
WITNESSES
Michael Tirre, Program Manager for Europe, State Department--
Political-Military Affairs, Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement
[PM/WRA] 3
Todd Biggs, Vice President for Munitions Response, Tetra Tech 5
Tony Connell, Ukraine Country Director, Swiss Foundation for De-
mining [FSD] 7
PARTICIPANTS
Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department of State, Commission on
Security and Cooperation in Europe 1
[IV]
Demining Ukraine:
A Pre-requisite for Recovery
__________
December 8, 2022
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Washington, DC
The Briefing Was Held From 11:04 a.m. To 11:54 p.m. via
videoconference, Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department of State,
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, presiding.
Committee Members Present: Representative Steve Cohen [D-TN], Co-
Chairman.
Committee Staff Present: Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department
of State, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe.
Ms. Pappas: [In progress]--and thank you to our distinguished
panelists.
The Helsinki Commission has convened this briefing to spotlight the
wide-ranging challenges posed by landmines and unexploded ordnance in
the wake of Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine.
Our panel will address efforts by the United States and the
international community to assist Ukraine with the critical task of
humanitarian demining. These challenges are not entirely new. Even
before Russia's full-scale invasion in February since Russia's initial
land grab in 2014, Ukraine had been amongst the most landmine-affected
countries in the world.
The United States and the international community had already
invested in years-long demining efforts in Ukraine's east. Landmines
and unexploded ordnance had killed and maimed more than 1,100 civilians
by 2022. Among them, I should note, was an American, Joseph Stone,
deployed with the OSCE's Special Monitoring Mission.
Ukraine was ranked fifth in the world for civilian casualties
caused by landmines and in the top three for anti-vehicle mine
incidents. When Russia unleashed the largest land war in Europe earlier
this year, the scale and scope of these challenges increased
exponentially across Ukraine. Russian forces have littered the country
with landmines and other explosive munitions in a reprehensible and
brutal manner.
By September, Ukraine estimated a hundred and sixty thousand square
kilometers of its territory was contaminated by mines and unexploded
ordnance. Current estimates put that figure at more than a quarter of
Ukraine's territory.
The situation in areas liberated from Russian occupation as in
Kharkiv and Kherson and the outskirts of Kyiv last spring is
particularly acute. In addition to laying mines, Russian forces in
retreat have intentionally booby trapped homes and civilian
infrastructure.
The consequences go well beyond the immediate danger to civilians
and are far reaching and, potentially, long lasting. Landmines and
unexploded ordnance impede reclamation of these territories and broader
reconstruction efforts. About 10 percent of Ukraine's agricultural
lands have been rendered unserviceable. Ukraine is losing thousands of
hectares of farmland to mines, which could further constrain its
critical grain exports to the world.
As daunting as these challenges may be, they are not
insurmountable. The United States and international community are
already hard at work providing demining assistance, training, and
equipment to Ukraine. The Department of State has allocated $91.5
million to date toward humanitarian demining efforts in Ukraine.
Our first panelist will provide an overview of this assistance. I
am pleased to be joined today by Michael Tirre, program manager for
Europe in the State Department's Political-Military Affairs Bureau
Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement, which is spearheading these
efforts.
Before I turn the floor to Mr. Tirre, let me note that if you have
questions for the panelists, please enter them at any time in the WebEx
Q&A box, not the chat function, and panelists will address them after
their presentations.
Oh, before I turn to Mr. Tirre, I note that Representative Cohen,
our Co-Chairman at the Helsinki Commission, has joined us on WebEx.
Sir, we are honored, and you are welcome to say a few words if you
would like.
Representative Cohen: Are we in? Are we visible and--
Ms. Pappas: Yes.
Representative Cohen: Thank you.
I appreciate your having this briefing. It is a very important
briefing. We have learned a lot about the mining situations around the
world from Princess Diana. She turned a lot of people's perspectives
onto this in Azerbaijan, and we have had the same problems with the
mining there and the areas under conflict and under controversy with
the Armenians.
In Ukraine, it is just another dastardly act of war that the
Russians have perpetrated and that needs to be dealt with. We need to
condemn Russia for what they have done. I mean, they tried to destroy
Ukraine and committed genocide.
We all today are thankful that Brittney Griner is free. We should
remember all prisoners of war, including Navalny and Vladimir Kara-
Murza, who are suffering these days in isolation, as well as Mr. Whelan
of the United States and all prisoners all over.
With that, I wish everybody the best and look forward to the
information that we glean from our panel.
Thank you very much.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Representative Cohen.
I should note that Co-Chairperson Cohen serves also as the OSCE
Parliamentary Assembly special representative for political prisoners.
With that, Mr. Tirre, the floor is yours.
Mr. Tirre: Thank you for the introduction, Demitra, and for the
invitation to participate in this briefing. I appreciate how you
described the existing mine contamination in eastern Ukraine resulting
from Russia's initial invasion in 2014.
This is key to understanding today's context because by the time of
Russia's full-scale invasion in February the government of Ukraine
already had existing demining expertise, including a mine action law,
demining authorities, national mine action standards, and, of course,
field experience.
Since 2016, the United States has been supporting the government of
Ukraine's response by advising these authorities, training and
equipping government demining teams, and also funding international
NGOs to deploy along the line of contact in Luhansk and Donetsk
oblasts.
The humanitarian impact of landmines and unexploded ordnance was
already severe in eastern Ukraine and, tragically, this has been
magnified exponentially by Russia's full-scale invasion. One hundred
and sixty thousand square kilometers is an initial estimate of the land
that needs to be checked for explosive hazards, based on where fighting
has occurred in Ukraine and where Russia's troops have deployed. It is
an area of, roughly, the size of Virginia, Maryland, and Connecticut
combined.
From reporting on the ground and statements from Ukrainian
authorities, we know that Russia's forces have deliberately booby
trapped objects in people's homes, including children's toys, and even
the bodies of people killed by the invasion.
The horrific use of improvised explosive devices by Russia's forces
is reminiscent of ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria where ISIS terrorists
sought to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible and made
people afraid to return home.
Additionally, international experts estimate that Russia's
munitions may have dud rates between 10 percent and 30 percent, meaning
massive amounts of unexploded ordnance will remain in the ground for
years to come. We expect this to be one of the largest landmine and
unexploded ordnance challenges since World War II.
Clearing this explosive contamination is a top priority for the
government of Ukraine. The lion's share of the demining work is already
being done by courageous demining and explosive ordnance disposal
personnel of the State Emergency Service, the national police, the
State Special Transport Service, and other government of Ukraine
operators. Since March, these incredibly brave and skilled Ukrainian
demining and EOD teams have found and destroyed more than 500,000
explosive hazards.
As incredible as the government of Ukraine's efforts have already
been, the sheer magnitude of explosive hazard contamination is
overwhelming. The $91.5 million in assistance that we are providing
over the coming year is designed to strengthen and supplement Ukraine's
national capacity and the recognition that this effort has been and
always will be led by Ukraine.
In September, we awarded a $47.6 million task order to Tetra Tech,
an American firm, to train government of Ukraine demining and EOD teams
to international standards inside Ukraine and provide them with the
tools necessary to do their jobs.
The project also includes the deployment of clearance and risk
education teams through a Ukrainian NGO called the Ukrainian Deminers
Association. Ukraine has substantial expertise and our project is
designed with this in mind, to help bring training to the next level,
share international best practices, and supply much needed equipment.
Sadly, Ukrainian operators have experienced several casualties and
their leadership's message is clear that they urgently need this
training and equipment.
This project is unique because it is the only internationally-
funded large-scale demining training program inside Ukraine, whereas
other assistance programs usually require Ukrainians to leave the
country.
It is also open to all government of Ukraine operators, not only
providing advanced training but also facilitating collaboration and
experience sharing between them by holding joint courses. Similarly, it
is designed to be a platform for engagement and coordination among
other donor countries.
For example, several countries plan to provide equipment but do not
have a way to run training courses in Ukraine for those items. We
intend this project to help fill in such gaps and create a more
coherent international response.
Most of the remaining funds from the $91.5 million will surge U.S.-
funded contractor and NGO demining teams to accelerate demining efforts
in areas identified as high priorities by the government of Ukraine.
We expect to deploy approximately 100 demining teams by the spring,
which is a dramatic increase from the 22 teams we were supporting prior
to the full-scale invasion. Our implementing partners include Tetra
Tech and the Ukrainian Deminers Association, the Danish Refugee
Council, the HALO Trust, the Swiss Foundation for De-mining, and Spirit
of Soccer.
These teams have different specializations such as survey teams to
interview communities and find evidence of explosive hazards, manual
teams to clear minefields and battle areas, and mechanical teams that
can rapidly demine farmland or remove obstacles like vegetation or
rubble.
The teams will also include explicit ordnance risk education teams
that are critical for teaching civilians how to recognize, avoid, and
report hazards.
Currently, most teams are in Kyiv and Chernihiv oblasts but have
recently expanded to Kharkiv Oblast. For example, our partner at FSD
who is represented in this event deployed clearance teams to Izyum city
on November 10. We anticipate that some U.S.-funded teams will deploy
to liberated areas of Kherson once the security situation allows and
they are tasked by Ukraine's National Mine Action Authority.
Finally, we are strengthening the government of Ukraine's
information management capacity so that they can track contaminated
areas and prioritize their resources effectively. The Geneva
International Centre for Humanitarian Demining, or [GICHD], is
providing technical advisors and consultants to help the demining
authorities manage their national database, revise national standards
based on their new experiences, and provide key trainings that improve
knowledge and skills at a strategic level.
Ukraine's demining needs are increasing every day. The government
of Ukraine has more than 200 demining teams currently with more than
1,000 personnel and plans to expand to 400 teams, or about 2,000
personnel, in 2023. As Ukrainian armed forces liberate more areas we
are seeing even heavier contamination and there are not enough teams to
adequately cover all high priority areas.
There is a need to continue our support beyond an initial surge to
help Ukraine tackle this issue successfully and to lay the groundwork
for broader reconstruction efforts, restoration of farmland, and the
safe return of displaced persons.
Thank you.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Tirre, for that overview and for your
efforts to assist Ukraine with this critical task.
I would like to turn the floor now to our second panelist, Todd
Biggs, vice president for munitions response at Tetra Tech and program
manager for the Department of State's Worldwide Destruction Support
Services.
Tetra Tech has been working in Ukraine since 2016 and began its
current Humanitarian Mine Action project on September 30 of this year.
Mr. Biggs served for 20 years as a U.S. Navy EOD officer before moving
into humanitarian mine action for the last 15 years, and is a member of
the International Mine Action Standards Review Board.
Mr. Biggs is joining us from Kyiv. We may or may not have video. I
believe we do, for the moment. He will provide an implementer's
perspective.
Mr. Biggs, the floor is yours.
Mr. Biggs: Thank you. Hello, everyone.
I would like to thank the Commission for holding this briefing and
allowing us to discuss the ongoing issues of Humanitarian Mine Action
[HMA] operations here in Ukraine.
As it was mentioned, I represent Tetra Tech, Inc. It is a U.S.-
based company working with the Department of State's Bureau of
Political and Military Affairs Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement
to provide humanitarian mine action services here in Ukraine, and, as
mentioned, I am calling in from Kyiv.
Tetra Tech has been working in Ukraine since 2016. This current
project specific to HMA operations has been on the ground since the
beginning of October.
You have heard both of the previous speakers discuss how large of a
problem unexploded ordnance and landmines are in Ukraine, and I think
it is also worth mentioning just how large Ukraine is from a land mass
standpoint.
If you were to lay Ukraine over the United States and you put the
eastern edge of Ukraine along the eastern seaboard along the Atlantic
Ocean, the western border of Ukraine and Poland lies in the state of
Missouri, and from north to south it goes from the south end of Lake
Erie all the way down to the south end of Georgia.
The country is large. Traveling around, moving from location to
location, is very time consuming and at times can be almost impossible
with the amount of damage that has been done to bridges, rail lines,
and other, you know, movement ways, especially in the western third and
the south of the country.
Our primary goal here in Ukraine is to assist the government of
Ukraine in growing their ability to manage and conduct the massive task
of clearing unexploded ordnance and landmines from Ukraine. We are
doing this in several ways.
The first is to establish a joint training facility to allow all
the government of Ukraine forces to standardize and advance their EOD
anti-mining training and bring it up to an international mine action
standard.
We are trying to coordinate this activity with the Ukraine
ministries and all of their suborganizations involved in explosive
ordnance disposal and demining activities. In addition to the training
facility, we are helping in conducting training assessments and
equipment needs assessments on each of those different organizations
involved in mine action.
This will allow the government of Ukraine and all interested donors
to evaluate the amount and type of training that is needed as well as
concurrently the amount of equipment and the type of equipment that is
needed.
This needs analysis will allow the Department of State and other
donors to provide much needed and requested equipment and material to
the Ukraine government when and where it is needed. With our ongoing
coordination we can then provide training on how to operate said
equipment but, more importantly, we can also train how to deploy that
equipment for clearance activities.
This training and equipping will allow Ukraine to safely clear and
use land currently contaminated with explosive ordnance and landmines.
We know the State Emergency Services Unit [SESU] has trained
approximately 40 EOD teams, but at this point do not have the equipment
to deploy those teams. Tetra Tech is currently working with SESU to
identify what equipment and subsequent training these teams will need
in order for them to start working.
This assessment should be completed within a month, which will then
permit the purchase of the correct equipment for their needs. We
currently have three risk education and nontechnical survey teams
deploying into Kharkiv Oblast in the east and also to the Mykolaiv
Oblast in the south.
In the coming days these teams will begin to identify areas
suspected and confirmed of having explosive hazards, which will all
feed into the Ukraine Mine Action Coordination Center's database. The
Mine Action Center will then oversee the assignment of clearance tasks
and resources in accordance with mine action standards.
Initially, those will be, of course, critical infrastructure, the
things that are going on every day trying to keep the electrical grid
up, water infrastructure, bridges and rail systems, hospitals, schools,
and, of course, critical industrial areas.
Working with the Ministry of Interior, SESU, the national police,
the State Special Transport Services, we have seen an incredible level
of dedication and hard work. They are conducting EOD and demining
actions daily and are managing to keep the vital services on in most of
the country.
They are undermanned. They are under-resourced for the amount of
work that is currently being asked of them. They do need equipment and
training to keep up with the level of emergency clearance required now
due to the ongoing conflict.
Ukraine forces are responding daily to attacks along the front as
well as to overnight attacks and to keep the critical infrastructure up
and running. Once the conflict ends, the work will shift from
reactionary to stabilization and then into the long-term clearance
activities. This will require longer-term planning and preparation.
With the generous funding being provided by the U.S. government and
all of the other international donors we will be able to help the
Government of Ukraine not only deal with the ongoing daily emergencies
but to grow and increase the overall size and ability of their EOD and
demining services across the country for the long-term clearance needs.
The problems being faced are very large but, as mentioned earlier,
are not insurmountable. With the continued help of the United States
and the entire international community, they can get this done.
Thank you.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Biggs, and I am glad that our comms held
up.
Mr. Biggs: Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Pappas: Our third panelist, also joining from Ukraine from
Chernihiv. Tony Connell is the country director in Ukraine for the
Swiss Foundation for Mine Action [FSD]. He has been with the foundation
since 2016 and has been involved in mine action both in the commercial
and the NGO sectors since 2000.
He previously served in the New Zealand army for 24 years. Mr.
Connell will provide an NGO on-the-ground perspective.
Mr. Connell: Okay. Thank you, Demitra.
It is a great honor to be able to speak to this Commission and I
thank you very much for the opportunity to do so.
As mentioned earlier, FSD has been here in Ukraine since 2016. We
started off with a very small risk education program and slightly
expanded it over time, until 2019 when we had two EOD teams, two Non-
Technical Survey [NTS] teams, and two risk education teams.
Unfortunately, due to a lack of funding, we had to suspend
operations in 2019 for about 12 months. Then, in early 2020, the Office
of Weapons Removal and Abatement [WRA] came to the party and provided
funding for us, which allowed us to start--restart operations. This,
again, was in the Donbas. We were based in Slavyansk where we had three
EOD teams, one of them based in Slavyansk itself and the other two were
in Mariupol. We also had risk education and NTS teams in both
locations.
February 24th of this year came along and, unfortunately, we had to
stop operations, obviously. Our personnel, dispersed throughout the
country left the Donbas.
While they were away in different locations they organized amongst
themselves to get involved in the humanitarian--the deployment of
humanitarian aid, such as delivering medical supplies, providing fuel
for the buses taking staff or just taking refugees to Poland, and
providing equipment for bomb shelters in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. This
was funded, again, by WRA.
When the situation started to stabilize, we started to relocate our
operations from the Donbas to Chernihiv, a city approximately a hundred
and thirty kilometers north of Kyiv. Chernihiv had been affected quite
badly in the initial days of the invasion and it was laid siege for
about six weeks before the Russians withdrew back to the north.
At this time we started to recruit and train additional staff and
we now have a total of six EOD teams, three NTS teams, and three risk
education teams. We also have a mechanical capability with, at the
moment, one light demining machine, and we are getting a second one
early next year--a heavy one. We also have, under purchase action,
excavators and front end loaders to give us a rubble removal capacity.
We anticipate having full capacity by early 2023--March 2023. A lot
depends on the weather and the climate.
As Todd mentioned, the Ukrainian people are incredibly resilient.
They are incredibly determined to resolve the problem. I have never
been in a country where the national staff are so determined to get rid
of the problem.
Our plans for the future, we want to continue our expansion into
Kharkiv. We have had two clearance teams--two EOD teams--there rotating
through for the last month and also risk education and Nontechnical
Survey Teams.
In due course, if future funding becomes available we could always
look at expanding into Kherson or wherever.
That is pretty much it from FSD. Thank you very much.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Connell.
We are opening the floor now for questions and answers. If you can
go into the Q&A box you are welcome to submit your questions.
We have a couple to kick off. Our first question is, could the
panelists give us an overview of other nongovernmental and/or local
efforts at demining they are aware of and the extent to which these
efforts are coordinated with those government programs and those of
their implementers?
What coordination mechanisms work well and where might additional
coordination be helpful? We have seen reports including on Twitter of
individuals who are demining, and I think that is a reference to that.
Thank you.
Whoever would like to take that on is welcome to.
Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I can maybe kick off on that one.
Yes, certainly, have seen reports in the media of individuals
helping on their own initiative as well as crowd sourcing initiatives
to provide training or equipment. There is a lot of different efforts
going on. Kind of as the question's hinting at, there is an inherent
challenge there of, I think, coordinating those and integrating those
within broader, more coherent kind of assistance mechanisms and
packages.
There is, certainly, a risk there that allowed those--that
assistance would be provided directly to, say, local units or to a
particular operator and managed at that level but not necessarily be
tracked at a national level as well.
Beyond that, I could not speak to the extent to which, you know,
the national authorities are effectively tracking or not more local
efforts on the ground. I am sure that's something that is on their
radar and there is always room for improvement.
For the second question about what coordination mechanisms work
well and where additional coordination might be helpful, as well as
kind of lessons learned from other demining efforts, you know, I think,
just to--it is worth noting that the Ukrainian kind of mine action
architecture is complex.
They have a National Mine Action Authority that is interministerial
in nature, high level, which kind of set policy for demining efforts
nationwide, and that is coordinated by the secretariat, which currently
in times of conflict falls under the Ministry of Defense. Then there is
also two different mine action centers that are responsible for tasking
and accrediting operators, conducting quality assurance, quality
control, and those two mine action centers have kind of overlapping
mandates under different ministries as well.
I think we have seen improvement in terms of coordination between
the different authorities in Ukraine. I mean, speaking frankly, it is
still a rather complex environment and can sometimes cause some
confusion about the exact approval mechanisms and that is really what
our project with the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian
Demining is trying to help with in terms of effective information
management and the relationships between the different authorities.
I should point out, too, that prior to the invasion our office had
some grants with the OSCE project coordinator in Ukraine that
originally helped advise on the original establishment of these
authorities and the national mine action law, and then the effective
kind of relationships and coordination between them.
Then I would just say, like, as specific lessons learned it is
incredibly important that the government takes the lead on this, that
they prioritize different areas, assign different areas of
responsibility. Again, this is something that is happening right now in
Ukraine and there is a lot of discussion on how to integrate demining
with broader strategies for reconstruction and development, and so
those discussions are very much underway.
Then, again, going back to that topic of information management, it
is very, very important that at a national level the government's
tracking where demining efforts are currently taking place, which areas
need to be checked in the future. This avoids situations where, say,
you need to re-clear a certain area or you have sent the wrong kind of
asset or resources to a particular area.
You know, this issue is going to stick around for a decade or
longer so it is important that the information we collect at this point
in time is accurate and it can help inform future deployments
accurately.
Let me stop there and see if any other panelists have something to
contribute.
Mr. Biggs: Hey, Michael, this is Todd.
I think the one thing I would add in our discussions here locally
is that the other thing that is happening right now is that here on the
ground the ministries in the government of Ukraine are still in a
little bit of a reactionary mode in that they are dealing with
emergency responses right now daily, and it has not quite gotten to a
point in the process yet of stabilization even to start thinking of
long-term clearance yet.
I think that is something that a lot of people miss a little bit is
that, you know, the government of Ukraine is still involved in fighting
a war and I think that is--you know, that is--I do not want to say that
is a "Problem". It is bigger than that.
It does lead them to not have a lot of bandwidth to look long term
until then. Now, once that--once the war ends and peace is settled and
it gets into that stabilization mode, then, I think, the historical
things that have been learned over the last 20 years of demining all
over the world will all flow in and you will have a lot more people
involved, and I think that will help them take control of that and move
it along.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
We have another question and that is, can someone go through step
by step how demining occurs, for example, from training to detonating
and removing the mines? You know, Demining 101, if you would.
Mr. Connell: I can step in and talk about that, if necessary. FSD--
the way we have done it is we recruit from the local population in the
area in which we are working. It does not require any specialist
background knowledge or training, although it is helpful to a certain
extent.
The initial demining course takes about four to five weeks and that
includes the use of detectors, recognition of different types of mines,
excavation drills, first-aid, casualty evacuation drills, and the list
goes on.
We then deploy them into the field and our operations teams of
personnel on which we have an international team leader. We have a
driver and a translator for him. We then have a team, national staff,
as deminers, two of which are trained as medics to give immediate first
aid in the event of a casualty, heaven forbid that happens, and then we
have a driver for the ambulance vehicle.
The team will deploy each day. They work a cycle of--[off mic ]--
Ms. Pappas: Tony, I think we lost your audio. That is unfortunate.
We will see if he can get back in.
In the meantime, I am curious what are the most common types of
landmines that you are finding in Ukraine in terms of the anti-
personnel mines in particular?
[Pause.]
Mr. Biggs?
[No audible response.]
We seem to be having some comms issues.
Mr. Biggs: We were--
Ms. Pappas: Oh, there you are.
Mr. Biggs: Yes. It jogged off there and it came right back on.
As far as mines go, they are mostly Russian at this point, as you
would expect--PMN type personnel mines, OZM-22s-72, sorry--anti-tank
mines. We have got a whole--TM-62s. Sorry. My technical manager is
reading off numbers to me.
To keep it fairly simple, they are mostly, for the most part, anti-
personnel mines and anti-tank landmines, which are very similar in
nature, just much larger.
Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I just popped into chat a link to an explosive
ordnance recognition guide that GICHD has put out that includes many
different examples of the types of landmines but also unexploded
ordnance that operators are kind of finding on the ground in Ukraine.
Ms. Pappas: Another question related to that--are there many
improvised explosive devices or are we seeing mostly mines and UXO?
Mr. Biggs: Yes. Mostly at this time we are seeing older type booby
traps. We are not seeing a lot of large use of IEDs. There is a fine
line there between which ones are IEDs, which ones are, you know, older
school booby traps, if you will.
I will relate this a little bit to Iraq and Syria where ISIS used a
lot of very technical improvised explosive devices and we are not
seeing that yet in the country. We are seeing lots of things booby
trapped in the older style of just, you know, trip wires and things
like that.
Ms. Pappas: We have read the stories about those being located in
civilian homes, which is extremely reprehensible.
You mentioned in your presentation also the impact of mines on
critical infrastructure. We are well aware of, you know, news reports
of drones hitting critical infrastructure.
Could you detail a little bit more, what the impact of landmines or
ordnance has been on infrastructure?
Mr. Biggs: On infrastructure itself, the landmines not as much
other than on roadways and around bridges and in places of crossing.
They have landmined lots of roads, places where a bridge is out and you
would have to go right or left to get to the next area. They then would
lay landmines to make it even more difficult to go from point A to
point B where you end up having to backtrack and go miles and hours out
of the way because of the landmines.
On the critical infrastructure itself, you are correct. It is
drones, it is missiles, it is long-range artillery that are taking out,
you know, major railways. You know, big targets are, you know, internet
and cell phone towers, electrical--you know, infrastructure of all
types, and the same with water--water pumping stations, those kind of
things.
--All of those. Today, the electricity here in Kyiv was off for--in
different parts of the city off and on all day as they were trying to
repair things. As I did say is they are doing an amazing job of getting
up every morning and repairing what was blown up the night before.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
Mr. Connell: We are also seeing quite extensive use of cluster
munitions around the Chernihiv area, and also there was in the Izyum
area a fair degree of what they call PFM-1s and PFM-2s, which are like
a butterfly mine. Very, very untidy.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
I am aware that prior to February, UNDP, the OSCE, and other
international organizations were working on demining in Ukraine. You
mentioned the GICHD, the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian
Demining.
What role is there for other international actors? It is going to
be a gargantuan task, and are they on the ground yet?
Mr. Tirre: I can, maybe, start off with this.
You know, I think the main challenge as this space continues to get
more crowded is to find the real value add of new actors and so, you
know, certainly, I think there is spaces that can still be filled by
new actors coming in but it might be challenging not to simply
replicate what others are already doing.
UNDP is still involved in mine action in Ukraine. They are doing a
good job kind of coordinating at a local level between the different
operators and the government of Ukraine. Within the U.N. protection
cluster system there is a mine action subcluster that the operators and
government of Ukraine participate in.
Then UNDP is also getting some funding from international donors to
provide equipment to the State Emergency Service. The OSCE, the, like,
successor office to the Project Cordinator Ukraine, I believe, is
intending to get involved in the mine action space but they are still
kind of figuring out exactly what that looks like.
Ms. Pappas: Which countries are donating equipment besides the
United States?
Mr. Tirre: Quite a few.
I have a list going of about--including the United States--about 19
countries that are--that I know for sure are providing assistance or
are very likely providing assistance, based on kind of statements from
the government of Ukraine, another nine countries that are more
notional or kind of have made public statements saying they are
exploring providing assistance.
Then you also have some private foundations and private donors. As
an example, Bayer Pharmaceuticals, who is the anchor partner for
USAID's AGRI--Ukraine initiative that is supposed to be helping
Ukrainian farmers and food security, has provided an expensive demining
machine to FSD conditioned on my office paying for its deployment under
our project with FSD. You also get situations like that where private
companies or foundations are contributing as well.
Then most of the donors are European so you get kind of the U.K.,
Germany, Switzerland, some Nordic countries, Estonia, Latvia,
Lithuania, Sweden, and then some kind of not unconventional donors but
ones that you might not necessarily expect. For example, Colombia has
expressed interest in deploying deminers or helping share expertise,
Croatia. Japan is very heavily involved providing assistance to the
SES, and also Cambodia as well kind of partnering with Japan.
There is a lot of very wide-ranging, I think, international
interest in helping Ukraine on this issue. That is all good. It also,
poses a challenge in terms of standardization and interoperability of
some of this equipment coming into Ukraine and the training.
Last week there was a Ukraine donors coordination workshop in
Geneva well attended by the government of Ukraine, international
donors, some of the operators working already in country, and there was
a lot of discussion about how to kind of coalesce international
training and equipment efforts around the U.S.-led effort with Tetra
Tech because as a matter of scale and just the kind of presence of
Tetra Tech monitors and liaison officers have Ukraine, we can provide a
lot of that information and analysis on what makes sense to provide the
Ukrainians, what kind of gaps there are still in--country.
Ms. Pappas: Are there lessons learned--you mentioned Colombia and
Cambodia--from major demining efforts elsewhere and also in Ukraine,
you know, prior to the current war that will help us ensure the best
outcomes for Ukraine?
Mr. Tirre: I might kick off on this and then, of course, I know
Todd and Tony would have thoughts as well, and Todd kind of mentioned
this a little bit, that the government of Ukraine right now is focused
on that initial emergency response and there is kind of an
international principle for mine action called "Land Release" which is
where you have an integrated process of risk reduction and it means
that you save the most expensive interventions or time-consuming
interventions where there is actually evidence of contamination.
Eventually, as a medium or longer-term effort, it will be important
to have most resources focused on that land release process, which is
where you can return land to productive use that never actually had any
evidence of contamination or further kind of check areas that are
suspected and really narrowed down to specific polygons on a map for
where you deploy the demining teams and mechanical assets.
In other countries we have encountered some hesitancy to do this
risk reduction approach, which is unfortunate because it means that a
lot of time is spent clearing areas that really never even had evidence
of contamination in them.
This is a longer-term an effort? Definitely, Ukraine should be
moving towards this. They already--they are already well aware of the
process and have received some training on it previously, including
under WRA funding. It is not brand new to them.
Ms. Pappas: Mr. Connell, Mr. Biggs, and I know you have had many
years of experience in humanitarian demining. Are there particular
lessons that can be applied to Ukraine?
Mr. Biggs: I do believe there are, especially at this early stage.
Like I said, you know, they are still emergency reacting but they are
being very open to suggestions on preparing now to plan, going forward
and, you know, Michael had said earlier one of the most important
things is to get the government of the country you are in to buy into
and lead the plan. That is one thing that we have seen here is they
definitely want to be in the lead. They want to--you know, they want to
fix the problem. They do not want to just rely on others coming in here
and doing it.
They--you know, they want our help. They want our guidance. You
know, they are asking good questions and they are laying out that plan,
and I think for me, personally, from, you know, the last couple of
conflicts that we have been involved in after they were over, that did
not necessarily happen up front.
Even now sometimes in Iraq it is not super clear. You will end up
with it not being planned and tracked well where the same area may get
cleared two or three times because it is just not being managed well by
the country.
I think those kind of things at this stage or the most important is
them being open to that, taking that lead, and then learning. For me, I
think, that is the biggest one. There is always technical lessons
learned and, as an industry, we do a pretty good job of kind of sharing
those.
From a bigger picture for the government of Ukraine, I think taking
on that responsibility to own it and then learning and moving forward
is important.
Mr. Connell: I agree with what Todd said a hundred percent.
Ms. Pappas: Finally, my last question--$91.5 million from the
Department of State is quite substantial, but is there a ballpark
figure as to how much it will cost to remove mines and unexploded
ordnance from Ukraine, whether on the part of the government of Ukraine
or any other source?
Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I could jump in on that one.
One of the--it is very hard to accurately estimate it at this point
in time, right, because there is no, like, national survey that is been
conducted. The government of Ukraine can not access, you know, all
areas of its territory, of course, to conduct such a survey.
The World Bank's rapid damage needs assessment that was released in
May, I believe, or June, estimated that it would cost up to $73 billion
to demine all the country, lasting several decades.
How much it will actually cost in principle or how long it will
actually take it is impossible to say at this point. They did have,
like, a quantitative means of coming up with that figure and it is not
entirely unreasonable, you know, based on the kind of estimates that
other organizations, think tanks, have come out with in countries in
Southeast Asia, for example, putting the cost of demining all the
territory in the billions of dollars figure.
Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
With that, I thank Tony and Todd as well, and stay safe in Ukraine.
For more information on mine action, I would highly recommend the
Department of State's Political-Military Affairs Bureau's annual
publication ``To Walk the Earth Safely.''
Much more, as we just heard, will be needed for Ukrainians to be
able to walk their lands safely. I am confident the United States and
international community will continue to stand with Ukraine to ensure
that they can do so.
Thank you for joining us today.
[Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the briefing ended.]
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