[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  LOOKING BACK TO PREDICT THE FUTURE:
               THE NEXT GENERATION OF WEATHER SATELLITES

=======================================================================                                    

                             JOINT HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE AND AERONAUTICS
                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 21, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-69

                               __________

                                     

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology
 
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       Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov
       
                              __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-523PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------         

              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

             HON. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas, Chairwoman
ZOE LOFGREN, California              FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, 
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon                 Ranking Member
AMI BERA, California                 MO BROOKS, Alabama
HALEY STEVENS, Michigan,             BILL POSEY, Florida
    Vice Chair                       RANDY WEBER, Texas
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey           BRIAN BABIN, Texas
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York              ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
MELANIE A. STANSBURY, New Mexico     MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida
BRAD SHERMAN, California             JAMES R. BAIRD, Indiana
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
JERRY McNERNEY, California           MIKE GARCIA, California
PAUL TONKO, New York                 STEPHANIE I. BICE, Oklahoma
BILL FOSTER, Illinois                YOUNG KIM, California
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
DON BEYER, Virginia                  JAKE LaTURNER, Kansas
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois                CARLOS A. GIMENEZ, Florida
CONOR LAMB, Pennsylvania             JAY OBERNOLTE, California
DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina         PETER MEIJER, Michigan
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin                JAKE ELLZEY, TEXAS
DAN KILDEE, Michigan                 MIKE CAREY, OHIO
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
VACANCY
                                 ------                                

                 Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics

                   HON. DON BEYER, Virginia, Chairman
ZOE LOFGREN, California              BRIAN BABIN, Texas, 
AMI BERA, California                     Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California             MO BROOKS, Alabama
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BILL POSEY, Florida
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
VACANCY                              YOUNG KIM, California
                                 ------                                

                      Subcommittee on Environment

              HON. MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey, Chairwoman
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon             STEPHANIE I. BICE, Oklahoma,
DAN KILDEE, Michigan                   Ranking Member
LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas               ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois                RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
VACANCY                              CARLOS A. GIMENEZ, Florida
                         
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                           September 21, 2022

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Don Beyer, Chairman, Subcommittee on 
  Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science, Space, and 
  Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................    10
    Written Statement............................................    12

Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Ranking Member, 
  Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science, 
  Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives...........    13
    Written Statement............................................    14

Statement by Representative Mikie Sherrill, Chairwoman, 
  Subcommittee on Environment, Committee on Science, Space, and 
  Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................    15
    Written Statement............................................    17

Statement by Representative Stephanie I. Bice, Ranking Member, 
  Subcommittee on Environment, Committee on Science, Space, and 
  Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................    18
    Written Statement............................................    19

Written statement by Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson, 
  Chairwoman, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. 
  House of Representatives.......................................    20

                               Witnesses:

Dr. Stephen Volz, Assistant Administrator, National Environmental 
  Satellite, Data, and Information Services, NOAA
    Oral Statement...............................................    21
    Written Statement............................................    24

Mr. John Gagosian, Joint Agency Satellite Division Director, NASA
    Oral Statement...............................................    35
    Written Statement............................................    37

Mr. Fred Meny, Assistant Inspector General for Audit and 
  Evaluation, U.S. Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector 
  General
    Oral Statement...............................................    43
    Written Statement............................................    45

Discussion.......................................................    58

              Appendix: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

Mr. John Gagosian, Joint Agency Satellite Division Director, NASA    76

 
                        LOOKING BACK TO PREDICT
                    THE FUTURE: THE NEXT GENERATION
                         OF WEATHER SATELLITES

                              ----------                              


                     WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
             Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics,
        joint with the Subcommittee on Environment,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in 
room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Don Beyer 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics] 
presiding.
[[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairman Beyer. Good morning. This hearing will come to 
order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare 
recess at any time.
    Before I deliver my opening remarks, I wanted to note that, 
today, the Committee is meeting both in person and virtually, 
both Members and witnesses. And I want to announce a couple of 
reminders to the Members about the conduct of this hearing. 
First, Members and staff who are attending in person may choose 
to be masked, but it is not a requirement. However, any 
individuals with symptoms, a positive test, or exposure to 
someone with COVID-19 should wear a mask while present. Members 
who are attending virtually should keep their video feed on as 
long as they are present in the hearing. Members are 
responsible for their own microphones. And also please keep 
your microphones muted unless you're speaking.
    Finally, if Members have any documents they wish to submit 
for the record, please email them to the Committee Clerk, whose 
email address was circulated prior to the hearing.
    Good morning, and welcome to today's hearing, ``Looking 
Back to Predict the Future: The Next Generation of Weather 
Satellites.'' I want to welcome our witnesses. We're pleased to 
have you here both in person and virtually.
    Today, the Subcommittees on Environment and Space and 
Aeronautics are meeting jointly, and I want to thank Chair 
Sherrill for her collaboration on this hearing.
    The importance of advanced, reliable weather prediction and 
understanding of long-term climate trends can't be understated. 
Devastating winds, storm surges, and flooding in Alaska and 
Puerto Rico are just recent examples. While weather continues 
to present serious risks to life and property, we've come a 
long way from 1900 when a hurricane with 135 mile per hour 
winds decimated Galveston, Texas, and wiped out 8,000 lives and 
an estimated 3,600 buildings.
    Our Nation's weather satellites in essence are the 
workhorses that provide imagery and data that feed weather 
forecast models and predictive tools. These critical satellite 
capabilities support the Government's core weather services, 
global users, as well as a thriving commercial weather 
industry. Today, advanced technologies increased scientific 
understanding of the Earth system and a burgeoning commercial 
space industry, providing new options and opportunities for our 
next generation of operational weather systems. We need to 
start by looking back to predict the future, and that story 
begins with NASA (National Aeronautics and Space 
Administration).
    In the early stages of our space program, NASA developed 
and launched in 1960 the world's first weather satellite, the 
Television Infrared Observation Satellite, TIROS-1, equipped 
with two television cameras and two video recorders that proved 
the value of space-based weather operations. A year later, 
President John F. Kennedy in a historic May 1961 speech to a 
joint session of Congress included a request for appropriations 
that will, quote, ``will help give us at the earliest possible 
time a satellite system for worldwide weather observation.''
    Following the TIROS satellites led to NASA's Nimbus series, 
as NASA worked first with NOAA's (National Oceanic and 
Atmospheric Administration's) precursor and then NOAA to 
establish a weather satellite system. NASA also developed the 
first geostationary weather satellite, followed by the first 
operational Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite, 
GOES, in 1975. And today, through a reimbursable arrangement 
with NOAA, NASA leverages its decades of experience to manage 
NOAA's satellite and instrument development, acquisition and 
contracting, and launch services. And once NASA checks out the 
satellite's on-orbit performance, it has a responsibility to 
NOAA for operational services.
    The benefits of NASA's contributions, however, don't end 
there. NASA and NOAA can transition instruments initially 
designed for NASA's cutting-edge space-based Earth science 
research into NASA's--NOAA's operational weather systems. The 
Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectrometer, MODIS, on NASA's 
Earth science, Terra and Aqua satellites lead to the 
development of their Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite, 
VIIRS, a key instrument on NOAA's current Joint Polar Satellite 
System (JPSS) series. And NASA's planned Earth science TROPICS 
(Time-Resolved Observations of Precipitation structure and 
storm Intensity with a Constellation of Smallsats) mission to 
involve a small satellite constellation could, if successful, 
provide options for future weather satellite missions and 
architectures.
    NOAA's and NASA's collaboration is long and strong, though 
the partnership has had its share of changes over time. The 
challenges and eventual dissolution of the prior tri-agency, 
NOAA, NASA and DOD (Department of Defense), NPOESS (National 
Polar-orbiting Operational Environmental Satellite System) 
weather satellite program, led to NASA's establishment of the 
Joint Agency Satellite Division (JASD) within the Science 
Mission Directorate. The division provides a dedicated effort 
to manage NASA's work for NOAA.
    It's clear both NOAA and NASA have learned a lot. Their 
decades-long relationship has matured to the point where NOAA 
and NASA jointly chair program management councils. We need to 
examine the lessons of this partnership, especially as the 
Federal Government considers equally challenging and important 
interagency efforts, including a space situational awareness, 
an era--area in which Space and Aeronautics Subcommittee are 
actively working, working together because reducing 
miscommunication and facilitating information flow are 
essential if we are to develop successful systems such as 
weather satellites, while minimizing cost, schedule, and 
management challenges.
    For example, challenges with the GOES-R program's key 
instrument, the Advanced Baseline Imager (ABI), on the 
currently operating GOES-17 satellite led to significant 
redesign of the instrument for the follow-on GOES-T satellite, 
which launched 18 months later than planned. Ensuring that 
lessons learned from previous mistakes are incorporated into 
future programs is essential to successfully executing NOAA's 
critical weather forecasting program.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on how NOAA 
and NASA's partnership and decades of experience and lessons 
will lead and advance our Nation's next-generation weather 
satellite systems.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Beyer follows:]

    Good morning, and welcome to today's hearing, Looking Back 
to Predict the Future: The Next Generation of Weather 
Satellites.
    I want to welcome our witnesses. We are pleased to have you 
with us, both in person and virtually.
    Today, the Subcommittees on Environment and Space and 
Aeronautics are meeting jointly, and I want to thank Chair 
Sherrill for her collaboration on this hearing.
    The importance of advanced, reliable weather prediction and 
understanding of long-term climate trends can't be understated. 
Devastating winds, storm surges, and flooding in Alaska and 
Puerto Rico are recent examples.
    While weather continues to present serious risks to life 
and property, we've come a long way from 1900 when a hurricane 
with 135 mph winds decimated Galveston, Texas and wiped out 
8,000 lives and an estimated 3,600 buildings.
    Our nation's weather satellites and instruments are the 
workhorses that provide imagery and data to feed weather 
forecast models and predictive tools. These critical satellite 
capabilities support the government's core weather services, 
global users, as well as a thriving commercial weather 
industry.
    Today, advanced technologies, increased scientific 
understanding of the Earth system, and a burgeoning commercial 
space industry are providing new options and opportunities for 
our next generation of operational weather systems.
    We need to start by ``Looking Back to Predict the Future'', 
and that story begins with NASA.
    In the earliest years of our space program, NASA developed 
and launched in 1960 the world's first weather satellite, the 
Television Infrared Observation Satellite--TIROS-1--equipped 
with two television cameras and two video recorders that proved 
the value of space-based weather observations.
    A year later, President John F. Kennedy, in his historic 
May 1961 speech to a Joint Session of Congress, included a 
request for appropriations that ``will help give us at the 
earliest possible time a satellite system for world-wide 
weather observation.''
    Follow-on TIROS satellites led to NASA's Nimbus series as 
NASA worked first with NOAA's precursor, and then NOAA, to 
establish a weather satellite system.
    NASA also developed the first geostationary weather 
satellite, followed by the first operational Geostationary 
Operational Environmental Satellite--GOES--in 1975.
    Today, through a reimbursable arrangement with NOAA, NASA 
leverages its decades of experience to manage NOAA's satellite 
and instrument development, acquisition and contracting, and 
launch services.
    Once NASA checks out the satellite's on-orbit performance, 
it hands responsibility to NOAA for operational services.The 
benefits of NASA's contributions, however, don't end there.
    NASA and NOAA can transition instruments initially designed 
for NASA's cutting-edge, space-based Earth science research 
into NOAA's operational weather systems.
    The Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectrometer--MODIS--on 
NASA's Earth science Terra and Aqua satellites, led to the 
development of the Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite--
VIIRS--a key instrument on NOAA's current Joint Polar Satellite 
System series.
    And NASA's planned Earth science TROPICS mission--to 
involve a small satellite constellation--could, if successful, 
provide options for future weather satellite missions and 
architectures.
    NOAA and NASA's collaboration is long and strong, though 
the partnership has had its share of changes over time.
    The challenges and eventual dissolution of the prior tri-
agency--NOAA, NASA, and DOD--NPOESS weather satellite program 
led to NASA's establishment of the Joint Agency Satellite 
Division within the Science Mission Directorate. The Division 
provides a dedicated effort to managing NASA's work for NOAA.
    It's clear both NASA and NOAA have learned a lot. Their 
decades long relationship has matured to the point in which 
NOAA and NASA jointly chair program management councils.
    We need to examine the lessons of this partnership, 
especially as the Federal government considers equally 
challenging and important interagency efforts, including in 
space situational awareness, an area on which the Space and 
Aeronautics Subcommittee is actively working.
    Because reducing miscommunication and facilitating 
information flow are essential if we are to develop successful 
systems, such as weather satellites, while minimizing cost, 
schedule, and management challenges.
    For example, challenges with the GOES-R program's key 
instrument, the Advanced Baseline Imager on the currently 
operating GOES-17 satellite, led to significant redesign of the 
instrument for the follow-on GOES-T satellite, which launched 
18 months later than planned.
    Ensuring that lessons learned from previous mistakes are 
incorporated into future programs is essential to successfully 
executing NOAA's critical weather forecasting mission.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on how NOAA 
and NASA's partnership and decades of experience and lessons 
will lead and advance our nation's next generation of weather 
satellite systems.

    Chairman Beyer. So let me now recognize my friend, the 
Space and Aeronautics Subcommittee Ranking Member, Dr. Brian 
Babin, for an opening statement.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding 
today's hearing as well and looking forward to hearing from our 
witnesses.
    One of this Committee's top priorities in recent years has 
been improving the accuracy of weather forecasting in the 
United States. NOAA's short- and long-term weather forecasts 
utilize data from several sources, including a fleet of 
satellites orbiting above. These satellites in polar and 
geostationary orbit provide needed observations of the Earth 
system that are vital in the development of our weather 
forecasts, as well as monitoring and preparing for extreme 
weather events.
    NOAA partners with NASA for the acquisition and the 
development of these satellites. NOAA establishes its 
requirements, and NASA issues contracts to develop these 
satellites within budget and ensure that they meet the 
technical specifications laid out by NOAA. NASA is responsible 
for the launch of these satellites and then turns over 
responsibility of these operations to NOAA. And though NOAA 
still has one more geostationary satellite to launch in 2024, 
the agency has laid out its initial plans for the next 
generation of geostationary satellites, which will be known as 
the Geostationary Extended Observation System (GeoXO), or more 
commonly known as GeoXO. At the same time, NOAA is continuing 
the deployment of its polar satellites through the Joint Polar 
Satellite System, with the next satellite JPSS-2 scheduled for 
launch in November.
    And though these systems are currently working well, that 
was not always the case. A previous system of polar-orbiting 
weather satellites to be developed in partnership with the 
Department of Defense, known as NPOESS, was canceled due to 
cost overruns, technical challenges, and schedule delays. 
Additionally, the recently launched GOES-T satellite was 
delayed by more than 18 months because of a needed redesign of 
its Advanced Baseline Imager, or ABI, due to technical issues 
experienced by its predecessor, GOES-S.
    Both GAO (Government Accountability Office) and the 
Department of Commerce's Inspector General have engaged in 
extensive reviews of NOAA's development process for its fleet 
of weather satellites and have offered a number of 
recommendations for how best to improve that process. Today's 
hearing should focus on how well NOAA has implemented these 
recommendations in the development of the current fleet of 
satellites, as well as what lessons still must be applied to 
the next generation of weather satellites.
    This Committee has a responsibility to ensure that taxpayer 
dollars are spent in the most responsible manner possible and 
we are getting the highest value for these satellites. As we 
consider how best to maximize the use of taxpayer dollars, we 
must continue to explore ways the Federal Government can 
partner with private--with the private sector to provide 
critical data.
    We have seen tremendous growth in the capabilities of the 
commercial satellite industry in recent years. The Weather Act, 
sponsored by Ranking Member Lucas, and the PROSWIFT Act both 
contained pilot programs that allowed NOAA to purchase data 
from commercial sources. We have seen the commercial sector 
willing and able to provide data to NOAA. In fact, NOAA 
recently announced a second request for radio occultation data 
from commercial weather satellites. Additionally, the agency 
announced that three companies have received contracts to 
provide space weather data to the agency.
    As we look ahead to the next generation of NOAA's weather 
satellites, we should consider how we can continue to leverage 
the innovation and the resources of the private sector as we 
work to provide the best weather forecast possible.
    I want to thank our panel of witnesses for appearing before 
us today, and I look forward to a very productive discussion on 
this very important topic. And so with that, I'll yield back, 
Mr. Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Babin follows:]

    Thank you for holding today's hearing, Mr. Chairman.
    One of this Committee's top priorities in recent years has 
been improving the accuracy of weather forecasting in the 
United States. NOAA's short and long-term weather forecasts 
utilize data from several sources, including a fleet of 
satellites orbiting above.
    These satellites, in polar and geostationary orbit, provide 
needed observations of the Earth system that are vital in the 
development our weather forecasts as well as monitoring and 
preparing extreme weather events.
    NOAA partners with NASA for the acquisition and development 
of these satellites. NOAA establishes its requirements and NASA 
issues contracts to develop these satellites within budget and 
ensure they meet the technical specifications laid out by NOAA. 
NASA is responsible for the launch of these satellites and then 
turns over responsibility for operations to NOAA.
    Though NOAA still has one more geostationary satellite to 
launch in 2024, the agency has laid out its initial plans for 
the next generation of geostationary satellites, which will be 
known as the Geostationary Extended Observation System, or more 
commonly known as GeoXO (pronounced Geo-X-O).
    At the same time, NOAA is continuing the deployment of its 
polar satellites through the Joint Polar Satellite System, with 
the next satellite, JPSS-2, scheduled for launch in November.
    Though these systems are currently working well, that was 
not always the case. A previous system of polar-orbiting 
weather satellites to be developed in partnership Department of 
Defense known as NPOESS (In-pose) was cancelled due to cost 
overruns, technical challenges, and schedule delays.
    Additionally, the recently launched GOES-T satellite was 
delayed by more than 18 months due to a needed redesign of its 
Advanced Baseline Imager (ABI) due to technical issues 
experienced by its predecessor, GOES-S.
    Both GAO and the Department of Commerce's Inspector General 
have engaged in extensive reviews of NOAA's development process 
for its fleet of weather satellites and have offered a number 
of recommendations for how best to improve that process.
    Today's hearing should focus on how well NOAA has 
implemented these recommendations in the development of the 
current fleet of satellites as well what lessons still must be 
applied to the next generation of weather satellites. This 
Committee has a responsibility to ensure that taxpayers dollars 
are spent in the most responsible manner possible and we are 
getting the highest value from these satellites.
    As we consider how best to maximize the use of taxpayer 
dollars, we must continue to explore ways the federal 
government can partner with the private sector to provide 
critical data. We have seen tremendous growth in the 
capabilities of the commercial satellite industry in recent 
years.
    The Weather Act, sponsored by Ranking Member Lucas, and the 
PROSWIFT Act both contained pilot programs that allowed NOAA to 
purchase data from commercial sources. We have seen the 
commercial sector willing and able to provide data to NOAA.
    In fact, NOAA recently announced a second request for radio 
occultation data from commercial weather satellites. 
Additionally, the agency announced that three companies have 
received contracts to provide space weather data to the agency. 
As we look ahead to the next generation of NOAA's weather 
satellites, we should consider how we can continue to leverage 
the innovation and resources of the private sector as we work 
to provide the best weather forecasts possible.
    I want to thank our panel of witnesses for appearing before 
us today. I look forward to a productive discussion on this 
important topic.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.

    Chairman Beyer. And thank you, Doctor.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Beyer. The Chair now recognizes the Environment 
Subcommittee Chairwoman Mikie Sherrill for an opening 
statement.
    Ms. Sherrill. Well, thank you so much, Chairman Beyer, and 
thank you to our Ranking Member, Dr. Babin. It's wonderful to 
be here today. And to our witnesses, thank you for joining us 
both in person and virtually. I'm looking forward to hearing 
about the successes and lessons learned from the current 
weather satellite programs, as well as learning more about what 
is to come with the next generation of satellites.
    The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's 
weather satellite programs play a key role in its mission to 
share Earth observations and scientific data used by the 
public, private, and academic sectors. Access to this knowledge 
is critical to communities in becoming resilient and weather-
ready. My district and many of my colleagues' districts have 
seen increasingly frequent and severe weather. Communities such 
as Little Falls, Woodland Park, and Denville in my district 
have faced repeated catastrophic and sometimes deadly flooding 
events such as the high-intensity rainfall from remnants of 
Hurricane Ida.
    I'm interested in hearing from our witnesses today about 
how observations by these satellites and the next generation 
after them will give communities like those in New Jersey's 
11th District accurate and up-to-date forecasting tools to 
predict and avoid life-threatening weather, especially extreme 
rainfall, and confront the ever-worsening effects of the 
climate crisis.
    At the national level, rainfall and flooding like that 
experienced in New Jersey and other extreme weather events can 
cause billions of dollars in losses to our communities. NOAA 
found that by July of this year, the U.S. had already 
experienced nine weather and climate disasters that exceeded $1 
billion each, and the year is not over yet. We are still in the 
midst of what is predicted to be an above-average Atlantic 
hurricane season. And just this past Sunday, Hurricane Fiona 
made landfall in Puerto Rico, knocking out power to the island 
and causing catastrophic flooding.
    That's why this hearing is so critical. So many aspects of 
our society and our economy depend on the environmental weather 
and climate information collected from these satellites. Any 
potential satellite malfunction or launch delay could cause 
data gaps that would be devastating to national security, the 
U.S. economy, and most importantly, public safety.
    It has been several years since this Committee has done 
extensive oversight over our Nation's operational weather 
satellite programs. Today, we will hear about the successful 
partnership between NOAA and NASA to develop, launch, and 
operate the current generation of geostationary and polar-
orbiting weather satellites. In fact, earlier this year, we 
celebrated the successful launch of the third satellite in the 
GOES-R series, and we look forward to what we hope is another 
successful launch of the JPSS-2 satellite later this year.
    The credit for these recent successes is largely due to our 
esteemed NOAA and NASA witnesses today and the teams that 
support their efforts. However, this partnership has not been 
without its issues, as we've heard. Both the Joint Polar 
Satellite System and Geostationary Operational Environmental 
Satellite programs initially faced ballooning costs and 
extended delays.
    Since then, NOAA and NASA have successfully turned around 
these programs. Despite some challenges, including instrument 
malfunctions on orbit, the agencies have worked to ensure no 
disruption in observations and that the same mistakes are not 
repeated. Continued planning, testing, and adjustments are 
required to minimize the risk of any potential loss of 
observational data. I hope to hear about the current 
contingency plans in case any potential malfunctions or mishaps 
occur and how NOAA and NASA will work together to address any 
issues.
    As the projected end of service dates for both the GOES-R 
and JPSS series are expected at the end of the next decade, 
it's important for NOAA to be developing the capabilities of 
the next generation of satellites with the help of NASA's 
expertise. NOAA is taking into consideration new technologies 
and increasing user needs through input from a variety of 
stakeholders, while establishing the future satellite 
architecture in a timely and cost-effective way.
    With all these considerations and lessons learned from the 
current weather satellites, I look forward to hearing from NOAA 
and NASA about their progress in the next generation of weather 
satellites. The time is right for discussion on GeoXO, and the 
future of low-Earth orbit (LEO) and space weather satellites.
    The importance of these satellites providing uninterrupted 
environmental and weather observations at a time when climate 
change is causing more severe and frequent extreme weather 
events cannot be stressed enough. The Department of Commerce's 
Office of Inspector General's (OIG's) continuous oversight of 
the satellite programs provides Congress and the public with 
consistent updates on possible risks these programs may face. I 
look forward to hearing the OIG's findings of a recent audit on 
NOAA's progress of the next-generation satellites, as well as 
any recommendations OIG may have in improving this progress.
    Again, thank you to our witnesses for being here today. My 
colleagues and I are committed to supporting the continued 
success of the Nation's operational weather satellites. And 
with that, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sherrill follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Beyer, and our witnesses, for joining 
us today both in person and virtually. I am looking forward to 
hearing about the successes and lessons learned from the 
current weather satellite programs, as well as learning more 
about what is to come with the next generation of satellites.
    The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's 
weather satellite programs play a key role in its mission to 
share Earth observations and scientific data used by the 
public, private, and academic sectors. Access to this knowledge 
is critical to communities in becoming resilient and weather-
ready. My district, and many of my colleagues' districts, have 
seen increasingly frequent and severe weather.
    Communities such as Little Falls, Woodland Park, and 
Denville in my district have faced repeated, catastrophic, and 
sometimes deadly flooding events, such as the high intensity 
rainfall from remnants of Hurricane Ida. I am interested in 
hearing from our witnesses today about how observations by 
these satellites--and the next generation after them--will give 
communities like those in New Jersey's 11th district accurate 
and up-to-date forecasting tools to predict and avoid life-
threatening weather--especially extreme rainfall--and confront 
the ever-worsening effects of the climate crisis.
    At the national level, rainfall and flooding like that 
experienced in New Jersey and other extreme weather events can 
cause billions of dollars in losses to our communities. NOAA 
found that by July of this year, the U.S. had already 
experienced nine weather and climate disasters that exceeded 
one billion dollars each, and the year is not over yet.
    We are still in the midst of what is predicted to be an 
above average Atlantic Hurricane Season. Just this past Sunday, 
Hurricane Fiona made landfall in Puerto Rico knocking out power 
to the island and causing catastrophic flooding. That is why 
this hearing is so critical. So many aspects of our society and 
economy depend on the environmental, weather, and climate 
information collected from these satellites. Any potential 
satellite malfunction or launch delay that could cause data 
gaps that would be devastating to national security, the U.S. 
economy, and most importantly, public safety.
    It has been several years since this Committee has done 
extensive oversight over our Nation's operational weather 
satellite programs. Today we will hear about the successful 
partnership between NOAA and NASA to develop, launch, and 
operate the current generation of geostationary and polar-
orbiting weather satellites. In fact, earlier this year we 
celebrated the successful launch of the third satellite in the 
GOES-R Series, and we look forward to what we hope is another 
successful launch of the JPSS-2 satellite later this year. The 
credit for these recent successes is largely due to our 
esteemed NOAA and NASA witnesses today, and the teams that 
support their efforts.
    However, this partnership has not been without its issues. 
Both the Joint Polar Satellite System (or ``JPSS'') and 
Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite (or ``GOES'') 
programs initially faced ballooning costs and extended delays. 
Since then, NOAA and NASA have successfully turned around these 
programs. Despite some challenges, including instrument 
malfunctions on-orbit, the agencies have worked to ensure no 
disruption in observations, and that the same mistakes are not 
repeated. Continued planning, testing, and adjustments are 
required to minimize the risk of any potential loss of 
observational data. I hope to hear about the current 
contingency plans in case of any potential malfunctions or 
mishaps, and how NOAA and NASA will work together to address 
any issues.
    As the projected end of service dates for both the GOES-R 
and JPSS Series are expected at the end of the next decade 
[2040 and 2039, respectively], it is important for NOAA to be 
developing the capabilities of the next generation of 
satellites with the help of NASA's expertise. NOAA is taking 
into consideration new technologies and increasing user needs 
through input from a variety of stakeholders while establishing 
the future satellite architecture in a timely and cost-
effective way. With all these considerations and lessons 
learned from the current weather satellites, I look forward to 
hearing from NOAA and NASA about their progress on the next 
generation of weather satellites. The time is ripe for a 
discussion on GeoXO, and the future of low Earth orbit and 
space weather satellites.
    The importance of these satellites providing uninterrupted 
environmental and weather observations at a time when climate 
change is causing more severe and frequent extreme weather 
events cannot be stressed enough. The Department of Commerce's 
Office of Inspector General's continuous oversight of the 
satellite programs provides Congress, and the public, with 
consistent updates on possible risks these programs may face. I 
look forward to hearing OIG's findings of a recent audit on 
NOAA's progress of the next generation satellites as well as 
any recommendations OIG may have in improving this progress.
    Again, thank you to all our witnesses for being here today. 
My colleagues and I are committed to supporting the continued 
success of the nation's operational weather satellites.
    I yield back the balance of my time.

    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Chairwoman Sherrill, very much.
    Now, the Chair recognizes the Environment Subcommittee 
Ranking Member, Congresswoman Stephanie Bice, for an opening 
statement.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Chairman Beyer and Chairwoman 
Sherrill. And thank you to our witnesses for taking the time to 
share your expertise with us this morning.
    When you drive across the State of Oklahoma, you can easily 
spot many signs of the traditional weather enterprise. You'll 
see weather stations and their Doppler radars and transmitting 
towers. You'll see mesonet stations on public and private land 
that make up our best-in-class State system. And if you can 
make it to Norman, Oklahoma, you'll see the National Weather 
Center, the premier hub for Federal, State, and academic 
research related to weather modeling and prediction.
    But all of this is just half of our capabilities. What you 
can't see are the highly technical instruments orbiting above 
us in space. To truly understand and monitor their full range 
of global and national weather patterns, NOAA, NASA, and the 
National Weather Service collaborate on a fleet of satellites 
that circle the Earth and collect vast amounts of data critical 
to weather modeling and forecasting.
    Currently, NOAA owns or operates a total of 16 satellites, 
10 of which they own and operate themselves. The other six are 
partnerships in which NOAA is critical to the operations. Many 
of them are the result of recent efforts and congressional 
support. In fact, it was just in March of this year that NOAA 
launched its most recent and most sophisticated satellite known 
as GOES-18. The GOES program has faced its fair share of 
challenges, ranging from equipment failures to COVID delays, 
but I look forward to the launch of the final satellites in 
this series, GOES-U in 2024. I'm also eager to discuss the 
lessons learned as we transition to the next generation of 
satellite systems, GeoXO.
    At the same time, it is important that we remember that the 
design and launch of satellites are just two pieces of the 
puzzle. In order to truly see the maximum benefits of these 
efforts, we must ensure that the data is useful to the weather 
community and that we have adequate ground systems to get the 
information obtained from space to them. An important part of 
this will be the development and use of high-performance 
computing by the weather enterprise. More computing power and 
better models will allow meteorologists to input large amounts 
of data, run weather models more times for accuracy, and 
produce a higher-resolution forecast, ultimately saving lives 
and property.
    Although there is room for improvement and increased 
support, NOAA should not be alone in this effort. The 
commercial weather industry has seen tremendous growth over the 
last decade and has shown the value their partnerships can add 
to Federal agencies' existing efforts. Private companies and 
research institutions have both computing resources and 
satellite data, both of which NOAA can acquire for use for a 
fraction of the cost it would take for them to build it out. 
The commercial weather data program and NOAA has proved these 
partnerships can be successful and benefits all parties 
involved.
    Additionally, researchers at universities can lead the 
development of next-generation instruments that can either be 
added to the commercial satellites or launch on their own 
dedicated payload. These are the type of cost-effective 
solutions we should encourage and support to supplement Federal 
observation efforts.
    Again, I want to thank the witnesses for being with us this 
morning, and I look forward to your testimony. Mr. Chairman, I 
yield back the balance of my time.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Bice follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Beyer and Chairwoman Sherrill, and 
thank you to our panel of witnesses for taking the time to 
share their expertise with us this morning.
    When you drive across the state of Oklahoma, you can easily 
spot many signs of the traditional weather enterprise. You'll 
see weather stations with their Doppler radars and transmitter 
towers. You'll see mesonet stations on public and private land 
that make up our best-in-class state system. And if you make it 
to Norman, you'll see the National Weather Center--the premier 
hub for federal, state, and academic research related to 
weather modeling and prediction.
    But all of this is just one half of our capabilities. What 
you can't see are the highly technical instruments orbiting 
above us in space. To truly understand and monitor the full 
range of global and national weather patterns, NOAA, NASA, and 
the National Weather Service collaborate on a fleet of 
satellites that circle the Earth and collect vast amounts of 
data critical to weather modeling and forecasting.
    Currently, NOAA owns or operates a total of 16 satellites--
ten of which they own and operate themselves, the other six are 
partnerships in which NOAA is critical to the operations. Many 
of them are the result of recent efforts and Congressional 
support. In fact, it was just in March of this year that NOAA 
launched its most recent--and most sophisticated--satellite, 
known as GOES-18.
    The GOES program has faced its fair share of challenges, 
ranging from equipment failures to COVID delays, but I look 
forward to the launch of the final satellites in the series: 
GOES-U in 2024. I'm also eager to discuss the lessons learned 
as we transition to the next generation satellites system, 
GeoXO.
    At the same time, it's important we remember that the 
design and launch of satellites are just two pieces of the 
puzzle. In order to truly see the maximum benefits of these 
efforts, we must ensure that the data is useful to the weather 
community and that we have adequate ground systems to get the 
information obtained from space to them.
    An important part of this will be the development and use 
of high-performance computing by the weather enterprise. More 
computing power and better models will allow meteorologists to 
input large amounts of data, run weather models more times for 
accuracy, and produce a higher resolution forecast--ultimately 
saving lives and property.
    Although there is room for improvement and increased 
support, NOAA shouldn't be alone in this effort. The commercial 
weather industry has seen tremendous growth over the past 
decade and has shown the value their partnerships can add to 
federal agencies' existing efforts.
    Private companies and research institutions have both 
computing resources and satellite date, both of which NOAA can 
acquire or use for a fraction of the cost it would take for 
them to build out. The Commercial Weather Data Program at NOAA 
has proved these partnerships can be successful and benefit all 
parties involved.
    Additionally, researchers at universities can lead the 
development of next generation instruments that can either be 
added to commercial satellites or launch on their own dedicated 
payload.
    These are the type of cost-effective solutions we should 
encourage and support to supplement federal observation 
efforts.
    Again, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today 
and I look forward to each of your testimony. Thank you, 
Chairman Beyer, I yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congresswoman Bice.
    If there are Members who wish to submit additional opening 
statements, your statements will be added to the record at this 
point.
    [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Johnson follows:]

    Good morning and thank you to Chairs Beyer and Sherrill for 
holding this important hearing on the future of NOAA's weather 
satellites.
    The importance of NOAA's weather satellites is 
unquestionable. The ability of the National Weather Service to 
provide accurate and lifesaving forecasts often starts with 
data collected by these satellites. This past week, we have 
seen the devastating remnants of a typhoon pummeling Western 
Alaska. Despite record storm surge and hurricane force winds, 
the Weather Service was able to provide timely warnings that 
allowed Alaskans to evacuate with no injuries or fatalities 
reported thus far. And earlier this week, Hurricane Fiona 
caused Puerto Rico to lose power, and flooding due to 
catastrophic rainfall continues. As we evaluate the devastation 
caused by this storm on the five-year anniversary of Hurricane 
Maria, I am hopeful that timely warnings based in part on data 
from those critical satellites helped to minimize the loss of 
life in Puerto Rico as well.
    These are just a few recent examples of why it is important 
not only for the public to know the value of these assets but 
also for Congress to understand how a program of this magnitude 
is being carried out to ensure its continued success. As these 
types of once in a lifetime storms become more commonplace due 
to climate change, it is vital that NOAA's future satellite 
programs not only maintain current capabilities, but further 
enhance them to deal with a rapidly changing climate and 
protect communities most at risk from climate impacts.
    In years past, this Committee held oversight hearings to 
provide insight into weather satellite programs that faced 
delays and growing costs. This work led to a reconfiguration of 
NOAA's satellite programs, and further formalized the ongoing 
partnership between NOAA and NASA. This interagency partnership 
to develop, launch, and operate these satellites has led to 
significant overall improvement in program implementation. The 
current geostationary, or GOES-R series, and polar-orbiting, or 
JPSS satellites made significant advancements in image quality 
and detection capabilities from previous programs.
    As NOAA and NASA embark on the next generation of weather 
satellites to follow GOES-R and JPSS, it is important to 
understand what metrics are being used to develop future 
programs. That is why the oversight work of the Office of 
Inspector General at the Department of Commerce is crucial. 
Having regular, independent, and thorough assessments of the 
ongoing satellite programs helps to ensure the most successful 
outcomes possible.
    This Committee has done a great deal of work in showing the 
value of weather and climate data to Americans in their 
everyday lives. It is important to understand how lessons 
learned from previous and current satellite development 
programs can help inform future satellite architectures. I 
anticipate a robust and enlightening discussion with our 
witnesses this morning on what to expect in the coming years 
and decades.
    Thank you and I yield back.

    Chairman Beyer. At this time, I'd like to introduce our 
witnesses. Our first witness today is Dr. Stephen Volz. He's 
the Assistant Administrator of the National Environmental 
Satellite, Data, and Information Services (NESDIS) at NOAA. Dr. 
Volz has 35 years of professional experience in aerospace. He's 
a leader in the international Earth observation community, 
serving as NOAA's principal both to the Committee on Earth 
Observation Satellites, CEOS, and at the Coordinating Group of 
Meteorological Satellites. Dr. Volz is the principal U.S. 
representative to the International Group on Earth 
Observations, and he helps leads efforts to coordinate global 
satellite-based observations among the international space 
agencies. He serves as the co-Chair of the NOAA Observing 
Systems Council and is also a member of the NOAA Executive 
Council.
    Our next witness today is Mr. John Gagosian. Mr. Gagosian 
serves as Director of the Joint Agency Satellite Division at 
NASA, which is responsible for the development of space systems 
supporting operational weather observation requirements of 
NOAA. His role as Director of JASD, he assesses program and 
project performance, as well as risk. Prior to joining JASD, 
Mr. Gagosian represented NASA's Science Mission Director's 
Astrophysics Division Program Executive for the Exoplanet 
Exploration Program and the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope. 
Mr. Gagosian also previously served as the Program Executive 
for the Hubble Space Telescope, Stratospheric Observatory for 
Infrared Astronomy, and the Cosmic Origins Program.
    Our final witness is Mr. Frederick Meny. Mr.--am I saying 
that right?
    Mr. Meny. Yes, you are.
    Chairman Beyer. OK, great. Mr. Meny is the Assistant 
Inspector General for Audit and Evaluation at the U.S. 
Department of Commerce. He leads the oversight efforts 
regarding intellectual property, IT (information technology) 
security, cybersecurity, and satellite and weather systems. Mr. 
Meny has more than 35 years of Federal Government experience in 
leading, managing, and directing organization staff, budgets, 
and IT resources, as well as major systems acquisition and 
development programs. During his 25 years with the OIG, Mr. 
Meny has led numerous reviews that improve the 2020 and 2010 
decennial censuses, departmentwide acquisitions and grants, 
First Responder Network Authority management, USPTO's (U.S. 
Patent and Trademark Office's) patents and trademarks, and 
NOAA's polar and geostationary satellites and weather systems 
development and operations.
    We are delighted to have all of you here. As you should 
know, you'll each have five minutes for your spoken testimony. 
Your written testimony can be much, much longer, and it will be 
included in the record for the hearing. When you have all 
completed your spoken testimony, we will begin with the 
grueling questions. Each Member will have five minutes to 
question the panel.
    So we will start with Dr. Volz, who is here with us 
virtually. Dr. Volz, the floor is yours.

                 TESTIMONY OF DR. STEPHEN VOLZ,

                    ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,

               NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL SATELLITE,

              DATA, AND INFORMATION SERVICES, NOAA

    Dr. Volz. Thank you, sir. Good morning, Chairs Sherrill and 
Beyer, and Ranking Members Bice and Babin, and all Members of 
the Committee. And as I've been introduced, Dr. Volz, head of 
the NOAA's, Environmental Satellite Data Information Service. 
It's a real honor to be invited to speak to you, and it's a 
pleasure to talk to you about the successes we've had and about 
the importance of the information from our satellite observing 
system to address the challenges from climate change and severe 
storm events that we are experiencing. We need no greater or 
more compelling reminder of the importance of our mission than 
the terrible storms that have made landfall in Puerto Rico and 
western Alaska in just the last few days.
    NOAA has a very unique mission: to understand, predict, and 
support the health of our oceans and atmosphere. We save lives, 
protect property, and enhance the American economy by 
monitoring and forecasting weather, water, and the climate, 
informing our citizens every day. We deploy ships and planes 
buoys, balloons, and drones, and satellites. Satellite data 
account for around 90 percent by volume of all the data used by 
NOAA's forecast models, and satellites are essential to develop 
and to extend essential planetary climate data records, which 
allow us to understand the changing planet.
    But we don't just use satellite data. In fact, NOAA devices 
plans for the Nation's Environmental Satellite Program, manages 
their construction, and operates them, while NASA builds and 
launches them on our behalf. NASA is our longest-standing and 
closest strategic partner in observing Earth and space. Our 
agency's missions are complementary. NASA and NOAA both conduct 
Earth and climate science research and model development. NASA 
develops new space technologies. NOAA exploits those and other 
technologies and delivers the observations and information the 
Nation needs. And that need is great and growing greater.
    Our experience with hurricane observations and research has 
taught us this lesson over the years: that better observations 
from satellites, geostationary and low-Earth orbit from 
aircraft and other systems and better research and data 
simulation all have led to improved forecasts and outcomes for 
communities in the paths of storms. Since Hurricane Andrew in 
1992, we have reduced hurricane track accuracy error by 75 
percent and intensity forecast error by 50 percent with these 
efforts.
    We will continue to face hurricanes, stronger and more 
frequent than in the past, but we're also dealing with 
significantly more frequent and severe extreme events, 
including wildfires and flooding. We need to be able to 
forecast fire and flooding events, as well as derechos and ice 
storms, with the same level of confidence, not hours, but days 
in advance to prepare emergency managers and communities to 
respond. To do this, we need better observations and better 
models. And NESDIS is working to deliver those improvements 
with our next-generation satellite observing system, with 
better and more information, all leading to a better NOAA.
    Recently, we completed the NOAA Architecture Study to help 
define our next-generation missions and integrate NOAA's assets 
with those of our international and commercial partners. We 
have demonstrated with our current programs the value of buying 
instruments and other essential program elements in bulk to 
reduce mission cost and risk and the value of selectively using 
different contracting approaches.
    NOAA's geostationary satellites provide the only continuous 
near-real-time observations of the Western Hemisphere. 
Supporting severe weather and extreme events, watches and 
warnings, our next-generation Geostationary Extended 
Observations, or GeoXO mission, will continue and expand the 
current GOES-R series. GeoXO's first launch will be in 2032, 
followed by five more satellites with planned observation 
through 2055. One of GeoXO's advanced capabilities is a 
hyperspectral infrared sounder. This sounder install will 
provide significantly improved real-time vertically resolved 
observations of wind speed and direction. With these data, 
experts will be able to better track and monitor storms and to 
better predict the behavior of fire and smoke.
    NOAA's current fleet of low-Earth orbit satellite, JPSS, 
provides continuous observations, and together with our 
partners satellites, are the backbone of the global weather 
forecasting models. NOAA's future LEO satellites will 
supplement and eventually replace our current JPSS satellites. 
They will provide more frequent and varied observations and 
better spatial and vertical resolution, improving modeling and 
driving higher resolution short- and long-term weather 
forecasts.
    Our Nation's current space weather system includes NOAA 
observations, along with NASA and other research satellites. 
And with these, NOAA provides forecasts that help safeguard 
power grid infrastructure, civil aviation, and spacecraft and 
astronauts. Space Weather Next will maintain and extend those 
observations from multiple observing points to improve critical 
storm forecasts for current users and for the expanding 
commercial space industry. These observations are required and 
has been authorized through the PROSWIFT.
    In conclusion, I'll state we know our citizens need weather 
and environmental informations to thrive in this changing 
world. NOAA and NESDIS, we're not only ready to do this, we 
were created for this mission. And I thank you for your strong 
and continued support of NOAA's mission and its satellite 
program, and I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you, 
sir, and back to you, Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Volz follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Volz, very much.
    We'll now hear from Mr. Gagosian.

                TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN GAGOSIAN,

         JOINT AGENCY SATELLITE DIVISION DIRECTOR, NASA

    Mr. Gagosian. Good morning, Chairs Beyer and Sherrill, 
Ranking Members Babin and Bice, Members of the Committee. My 
name is John Gagosian, and I'm the Director of the Joint Agency 
Satellite Division at NASA headquarters, a unique office 
charged with overseeing the development and launch of satellite 
systems to meet NOAA's research and operational mission 
requirements. Yes, you heard that correctly. We are charged at 
NASA with meeting NOAA's needs. But I want to emphasize the way 
our collaboration with NOAA on weather satellites has 
strengthened our larger partnership with our sister agency. 
I'll discuss the benefits that our cooperation offers to both 
agencies and share a bit of what we're looking forward to in 
the future.
    As the Chairs and Ranking Members described so well, since 
the 1960's, NOAA and NASA have been strategic partners in 
research and operations, with NASA focused on answering 
emerging scientific questions, and NOAA focused on using 
environmental information to safeguard the public and grow our 
economy. In this relationship, NOAA has long coordinated with 
NASA in the development of its satellites, taking advantage of 
NASA's unique expertise in developing and launching space 
systems.
    The two agencies have three integrated joint program 
offices at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland. NOAA 
provides overall program management requirements and budget 
while NASA is responsible for the acquisition and development 
of mission systems through its rigorous flight program 
management processes. At Goddard, work is directed by 
interagency leadership teams and governed by joint agency 
management councils to ensure close collaboration in every step 
of project development. In this structure, NOAA maintains 
programmatic authority and NASA exercises technical authority 
using a tailored and formally documented process. Following 
launch, on-orbit checkout and validation by NASA, NOAA takes 
over operation of its satellites. Together, we have developed 
the JPSS series, the GOES-R series, and the Discover Space 
Weather Monitor. We're looking toward the next generation of 
geostationary satellites, the GeoXO program, which will include 
the addition of ocean and atmospheric monitoring. We're also 
working toward a new architecture of low-Earth orbit 
satellites, starting with Quick Sounder and the future of space 
weather monitoring with Space Weather Follow-On and Space 
Weather Next programs.
    Throughout this work, both NOAA and NASA can point to many 
successes that have come through collaboration. The state-of-
the-art instruments that NOAA uses in its JPSS series have 
built upon NASA instruments first developed for the Earth 
observing system in the 1990's. NASA has also been able to host 
its own research instruments on JPSS satellites, for example, 
to monitor ozone and to measure the energy reflected and 
emitted by the Earth.
    NASA missions like TEMPO (Tropospheric Emissions: 
Monitoring Pollution), monitoring air pollution across America, 
and GLIMR (Geostationary Littoral Imaging and Monitoring 
Radiometer), measuring ocean color along our coasts, have led 
directly to capabilities plan for NASA--excuse me for NOAA's 
GeoXO program. GeoXO will bring new capabilities to address 
emerging environmental challenges of the future in support of 
U.S. weather, ocean, and climate operations.
    NOAA's radiation monitors in geostationary orbit are 
critical sources of data for NASA's space weather research. 
They provide key measurements demonstrating that solar 
variability is driving space weather processes. These 
measurements are currently performed by the GOES-R series and 
will be transitioned to the Space Weather Next series in the 
future.
    Indeed, many of NOAA's operational assets are crucial for 
NASA's research, and our common data needs have led to joint 
work, advancing data assimilation and modeling. Together, NOAA 
and NASA are leveraging the best innovations across the space 
industry to reduce costs and improve the capabilities of future 
missions. Our work toward a network of small low-Earth orbit 
satellites can improve global coverage, reduced development 
timelines, and more quickly infuse new technologies. We've 
explored new acquisition strategies that rely on the private 
sector for mission operations and data transport, and have 
executed commercial data buys using licensing agreements that 
allow us to share the data with other government agencies. We 
have reduced the cost of access to space via secondary 
payloads, hosted payloads, and new launch vehicles. We also see 
the potential in cloud computing, artificial intelligence, and 
machine learning to enable research and improve data products.
    In summary, our two agencies' close collaboration has 
allowed each of us to accomplish far more than we could have 
achieved on our own and has amplified the unique benefits that 
each of us bring to the Nation. We thank you for your support 
of our joint operations. Thank you for inviting NASA to join 
this hearing today, and I'd be happy to take any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gagosian follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Mr. Gagosian, thank you very much.
    And next, we'll hear finally from Mr. Meny. The floor is 
yours, sir.

                  TESTIMONY OF MR. FRED MENY,

                  ASSISTANT INSPECTOR GENERAL

                   FOR AUDIT AND EVALUATION,

                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE,

                  OFFICE OF INSPECTOR GENERAL

    Mr. Meny. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Beyer, Chairwoman 
Sherrill, Ranking Members Babin and Bice, and Members of the 
Subcommittees. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
    NOAA's satellites are vital to the Nation and its ability 
to collect weather and climate data for warnings and forecasts. 
As an Assistant Inspector General for the U.S. Department of 
Commerce, Office of Inspector General, my office has oversight 
responsibility of the NOAA satellite programs. We have 
conducted many audits of these programs that made numerous 
recommendations to improve their efficiencies and 
effectiveness.
    The cooperation of both NOAA and NASA leadership and staff 
has facilitated our oversight, and I am very pleased to join my 
fellow witnesses today to discuss the next generation of 
weather satellites. My written testimony summarizes challenges 
pertinent to this hearing in our Fiscal Year 2022 ``Top 
Management and Performance Challenges'' report, as well as 
results from two recent audits. This morning, I would like to 
offer three observations from that work.
    First, delivering fully capable satellite systems on orbit 
is a technical challenge that requires adherence to sound 
system engineering and mission-assurance practices. However, 
the need to stay on schedule can sometimes lead NOAA to make 
risk-based decisions to deviate from those best practices. NOAA 
aggressively manages its launch schedules to mitigate potential 
data gaps. However, we have found that an overly schedule-
driven approach can sometimes have negative performance effects 
when critical testing or other steps are modified to stay on 
schedule.
    In our latest audit of the GOES-R program, we found that 
NESDIS is planning launches of those satellites sooner than its 
policy requires. This results in more frequent launches and 
therefore higher costs over time. To justify this practice, we 
recommend that NESDIS conduct a cost-benefit analysis and 
update its governing policy accordingly.
    Our second observation is that NOAA policies and procedures 
need to be fully aligned to the needs of users of satellite 
data. User needs, well-defined and validated, become 
requirements that form the basis for systems architectures, 
design, integration, and verification. In our recent audit of 
NOAA's efforts to plan and implement its next generation of 
satellite systems, we found the need for improvement in NOAA's 
requirements management policy and practices. Most notably, 
NOAA's process for validating user observation requirements 
must be updated to meet the needs of next-generation satellite 
programs. The current defined process is not timely.
    NOAA also needs to ensure distinction between requirement 
threshold and objectives. These minimum and desired 
specifications create trade space that provide flexibilities in 
allocating resources. In addition, NOAA leadership must further 
distinguish the priorities of its user observation 
requirements. Satellite programs are often responsible for 
multiple mission-critical or priority-one requirements. This 
can be a challenge for program managers who need to understand 
which requirements take precedence for risk-based decisions.
    My third and final observation is that NOAA satellite 
programs have had success avoiding potential data gaps, as well 
as applying lessons learned. The same program offices will also 
manage the acquisition and development of the next generation 
of satellites. To seek new efficiencies, NOAA should reassess 
many of their programmatic assumptions. We have often 
questioned such assumptions in our work, leading to 
recommendations and greater assurance that taxpayers dollars 
are well spent.
    In conclusion, NOAA satellite programs are vital to the 
Nation and require continued oversight. This hearing is an 
important effort in ensuring their success. Right now, my 
office has audits underway assessing space weather follow-on, 
GeoXO, polar weather satellites. As always, once our final 
reports are issued, I look forward to sharing our results with 
you and your staff.
    This concludes my statement. I would be happy to respond to 
any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Meny follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Mr. Meny, thank you very much.
    We will now begin our round of questions, and I will begin.
    Dr. Volz, just listening to Mr. Meny, one of the things he 
said was that NOAA requires the program to work toward the 
earliest achievable launch dates for its satellite missions. 
And this is in order to minimize the risk of a satellite 
coverage gap, but that the aggressive planning dates can also 
increase pressure on schedules and lead to lots of bad 
decisions along the way. How do you respond to this pressure 
between the earliest possible launch and the need to do things 
right the first time?
    Dr. Volz. So thanks for the question, sir. And I 
certainly--I would say our primary focus when we look at the 
timeliness and the timeline for launching our missions is to 
assure the continuity of information to our users. Nothing's 
more important than making sure there's no gap in the 
information that goes into our weather forecasts or the 
emergency managers from our geostationary satellites. There 
will always be a tension between continuing testing versus 
meeting the launch date.
    And I would contend with--argue with the argument, we don't 
go to the earliest possible launch date. We're constantly 
looking at the health of our on-orbit constellation, and we're 
managing the system of observations we need. So for example, 
for the GOES-R series, we have a policy which requires two 
satellites in orbit operating GOES-East and GOES-West. And we 
have a flight spare in the middle of the of the Nation--of the 
sky between the two so we have no more than a few--a few-hour 
delay. If we lose a satellite, we can turn the other one on. So 
we make sure we maintain that on-orbit readiness, and that's 
what drives our launch readiness for our birds that are being 
developed on the ground.
    So there will always be tension between the desire to do--
for thorough testing and meet the launch dates, but we are 
driven by our need for continuity. And it's a constant balance, 
and the program managers know that. And we don't cut corners 
for testing. As you yourself stated up front, we delayed the 
launch of GOES-18 by a little over a year as we had to correct 
a problem we noticed on GOES-17. We did that knowing we had a 
healthy constellation, which allowed for that timeliness, that 
delay in order to fix the instrument on the ground and yet not 
have a gap in our performance. We're constantly making these 
decisions on a--all the time as we look at our satellite 
constellation. Thank you.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Volz, very much.
    Mr. Gagosian, one of the things you wrote is--and talked 
about is the--that you're exploring alternative acquisition 
strategies, such as making the spacecraft prime contractor 
responsible for mission operations and data transport. This 
feeds in so much to the work that we're doing on the Committee, 
especially the Space Subcommittee, on how--the explosion of the 
commercial sector and how much can be meaningfully moved to the 
commercial sector without sacrificing quality and at big cost. 
Can you expand on this a little bit? Do you see our weather 
satellites ultimately being managed by the commercial sector?
    Mr. Gagosian. Thank you for the question, sir. So we're 
exploring a lot of different strategies for program management 
and acquisition, primarily now with the Quick Sounder project, 
which is the initial mission under the next-generation low-
Earth orbit weather satellites. So we issued a request for 
information several months ago to the private sector looking at 
ideas for how to execute, as I explained, a mission where the 
contractor is responsible for operations and data transport, 
basically delivering data to NOAA for processing and 
distribution. So we're looking at these techniques because we 
know that our commercial partners have best practices that they 
developed over the years for efficient operations. And we're 
going to take the lessons that we learned from Quick Sounder 
and apply those to planning future missions under the LEO 
program, which one of the visions for that program is a 
disaggregated constellation of smaller satellites, as I also 
referred to in my testimony, sir.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Gagosian.
    Mr.--Dr. Volz, one more question. The--some of--much of the 
testimony is all about ever-better data, you know, better 
satellites, more sophisticated, better instruments and the 
like. Is it just about data or how much is also about theory 
and modeling and going beyond being able to measure things more 
carefully to actually thinking differently about the data that 
you have?
    Dr. Volz. And that's a great way--a great question to ask 
it that way. It's not about better data. It's about better 
information and better understanding, and that requires better 
data, but it also requires better understanding of what you're 
observing and the understanding of the Earth system. And that's 
a great example where NASA and NOAA work together whereas--
where NASA does exploration missions to understand processes 
that drive different effects of the Earth, and NOAA is looking 
at how those processes affect our ability to forecast and 
predict phenomena that are of impact to our communities and our 
world.
    So it is the--we are--there's a push-pull. The improved 
models identify what they--we understand and the need for 
greater resolution in the information. So as we go to a higher-
resolution model, we might need better, higher-resolution data. 
And the better data, the understanding of processes, drives the 
modelers to look at a different way to analyze and predict the 
phenomenon we're trying to forecast. So it requires both. It 
requires consistent and continuous improvement on both sides.
    And with the NOAA side, as we look at these new satellites 
and GeoXO, for example, we're actively working with the 
National Weather Service, Ocean and Atmosphere Research Group, 
to understand what the models need and how the models need to 
improve and develop over the coming years so they're ready to 
use the data when we provide it and not just to--not to leave 
the data untapped and unvalued as it gets delivered to them. So 
it takes both in coordination, and we're doing that very 
carefully as we look forward to these next-generation 
satellites.
    Chairman Beyer. OK. Thank you very much.
    I now recognize the distinguished Ranking Member of the 
Space Subcommittee, Dr. Babin.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it.
    As Dr. Volz noted, the scoping of next-generation satellite 
programs is underway, and definitive lifecycle costs have not 
been finalized yet. It's important to note that lifecycle costs 
can change in both good and bad ways. For example, the GOES 
program increased by 8 percent in 2020, while at the same time 
the Polar Follow-On program decreased by 9.7 percent.
    My question is for all three of you witnesses, and I think 
it's very simple. How do your agencies and programs ensure that 
the most accurate lifecycle cost analysis is put in front of 
Congress so that we can know exactly what we're getting? 
Basically, how do we avoid starting what might seem like a 
minor endeavor but watch it suddenly balloon into a major cost 
program that's far too--too far along to abandon?
    Dr. Volz. Well, if I may take the answer first----
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir. Dr. Volz.
    Dr. Volz [continuing]. Chairman Babin. I think that's a 
great question. And I would say that we don't see any of our 
programs as minor or any of the endeavors as minor. We treat 
them all as--we're looking at building systems that will be 
operating for 20 to 30 years, so fully recognizing that it's 
not just the cost of a thing, a spacecraft or something, but 
it's the cost of the system and the impact of that system, so 
fully recognizing that and looking at the best of modeling 
techniques that we have for cost and schedule modeling that's 
been developed over many years.
    I spent 25 years with NASA developing and working on 
missions with different ways of doing cost estimating and 
programming, and we have a very rigorous combined NOAA-NASA 
approach to doing cost estimation and assessments, which are 
really accurate at determining the cost of space assets. And on 
the NOAA side, we have a long operational tail that we have to 
quantify as well. As we said, GeoXO is going to be operating 
into the early 2050's.
    So our models are varied but actually look at those 
different pieces very accurately. And as we go through, for 
example, GeoXO is coming up for a mission commitment in the 
next--in the coming months, we have numerous independent 
assessments, as well as our grassroots bottoms-up assessments 
by the program team, which allow for a rigorous discussion of 
the pros and cons of different modeling approaches.
    And I think your own example of a slight--an 8 percent 
increase in one and a 9 percent decrease in the other reflected 
our ability to continuously revisit the lifecycle cost not as 
an emergency after we have a problem, but as a routine best 
practices. And we do that throughout the program, even after we 
start with an initial cost basis.
    And I'll turn to my colleagues, to John and to Fred, for 
other comments. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Babin. Mr. Meny.
    Mr. Meny. Thank you, Chair.
    Mr. Babin. I don't--I don't think your your mic is on. 
There we go.
    Mr. Meny. Oh, thank you, Ranking Chair.
    The lifecycle cost estimates for any program are extremely 
important, as you know. And as I said earlier, the 
understanding of user observation requirements and what those 
requirements are is very important as well. That drives what 
will be allocated to a satellite program or another platform of 
how you will get that data. So understanding that baseline is 
extremely important. GOES-R, as you brought up earlier, 
initially in its development, there was a hyperspectral sounder 
on it--hyperspectral sounder--hyper-environmental spectral--
spectrum sounder on that satellite. However, it was not 
technology-ready to be flown, and it was dropped from that 
program.
    GeoXO is going to be bringing a similar, you know, approach 
involved here for the extended orbits, so it's extremely 
critical to understand what that actual baseline will look like 
and how those development costs and technology readiness 
associated with the capabilities it's going to deliver is laid 
out.
    It's also important to test assumptions. We had reports on 
JPSS where we hit them up early with recommendations on looking 
at GAO's lifecycle cost estimates and changing assumptions. So 
following that guidance is extremely important.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. Mr. Gagosian?
    Mr. Gagosian. Yes, thank you. If I may, I'd also like to 
echo what Dr. Volz said about having a variety of different 
cost models that are run early in a program. They all have 
different assumptions and techniques that are used. And so by 
having a suite of different models, we're able to, let's say, 
you know, determine a cost target early on that has some 
realism to it. But really, I want to fall back on the NASA 
process, which is not to validate the cost estimate and really 
commit to the cost until what we call key decision point C, 
which is after the preliminary design review occurs on the 
system.
    So we have a standing review board fully review the design. 
They look at all the risks. They do what's called a JCL 
analysis, a Joint Confidence Level analysis. And by the time we 
get to that key decision point, we have been able to shake the 
design out and come up with a much more confident number as to 
what the cost will be.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much. And, Mr. Chairman, my time 
has expired even though I have several other questions.
    Chairman Beyer. Mr. Vice--Ranking Member--if it's OK with 
you, I hope we'll do a second round.
    Mr. Babin. OK, good.
    Chairman Beyer. In the meantime, let me recognize the 
distinguished gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Bonamici.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you very much to the Chairs and Ranking 
Members and to the witnesses.
    In northwest Oregon where I'm honored to represent the 1st 
District we are experiencing the effects of severe weather 
patterns that cause more intense heat waves actually and longer 
fire seasons. And just this month, the combination of high 
winds, extraordinarily low humidity fueled wildfires in Oregon 
that caused evacuations of some communities and also two of our 
regional power utilities conducted planned shutoffs that 
affected more than 40,000 Oregonians.
    So as we invest in climate adaptation strategies to reduce 
the consequences of extreme weather, the need for accurate and 
timely and consistent data is essential, especially for 
resiliency efforts in those vulnerable communities.
    So, Dr. Volz, in the Pacific Northwest we rely on quality 
data about the ocean to support industries like our fisheries, 
protect marine life to build resilient communities. So in 
addition to operating the Nation's weather satellites, as you 
know, the National Environmental Satellite, Data, and 
Information Services, NESDIS, is home to the National Centers 
for Environmental Information, NCEI, which serves as a 
repository for many of the domestic and international sources 
of environmental and climate data and information services to 
inform climate change and mitigation and adaptation.
    So, Dr. Volz, how does NESDIS, through its weather 
satellites and NCEI, how does NESDIS support the broader 
landscape of NOAA's climate change mitigation and adaptation 
efforts? And how can next-generation weather satellites 
integrate with ocean monitoring systems?
    Dr. Volz. So thank you, Ms. Bonamici, for the excellent 
question. And the other piece that we often forget when we talk 
about NESDIS is the information services that you mentioned, 
the National Centers for Environmental Information. So the 
primary function of the NCEI is the archiving and retention of 
all of the global climate environmental observations that we 
make and split the archiving and storage, but it's the 
utilization of those data which are so key. So are the ocean 
observation systems, the ocean observation data that we have 
and collect are part of NCEI's, and these are through our 
partnerships with the National Ocean Service and the National 
Marine Fishery Service are key information parameters for those 
services to determine the changes in migration--fish migration 
species, the changes in the ocean, the dynamics in the ocean 
environment. So we work closely with them for the archiving of 
their data and the integration of their data with other 
datasets that we get from other sources, as well as satellites 
and other partners.
    So the--looking forward, as you mentioned, the changes that 
we're seeing in the environment, whether it's ocean heat waves, 
heat events, such as the hot blooms that have occurred, are a 
key part of our forecasting requirements, that we understand 
those better and forecast those better because of their impacts 
on the fisheries and the economies [inaudible].
    Ms. Bonamici. We had a hearing yesterday on the Arctic, and 
we heard that they're having trouble with harmful algal blooms 
up there, sometimes for the first time.
    I want to follow up. Earlier this month, as you know, NOAA 
and Department of Interior launched a portal for climate 
mapping, resilience, and adaptation. So how is this data 
distributed? How would a more cohesive climate service benefit 
the mission of NESDIS? And we heard in the testimony earlier 
that NOAA needs to better align data with the needs of users. 
Is that something you're working on?
    Dr. Volz. It is, and it is an important piece. It's not 
just having the data, but it's getting it to the user. So we 
have had a number of interactive sessions with communities 
around the Nation and in the regions to try and understand the 
data use needs that they have at the NOAA level, the NESDIS 
level through our Regional Climate Service Directors and our 
Regional Service Divisions. We're working directly with State 
and locally--users of our data to provide and improve the 
delivery of our services.
    It is a scaling challenge for us as we are changing the way 
that we deliver data to our users. And one of the initiatives 
we started is to move all of our data into a cloud-based 
format, our NESDIS Common Cloud Framework, which allows for 
much easier, more rapid dissemination of data to different 
users. That just opens the portal. It doesn't tailor the data 
to the users as well as we need to. And that's part of our 
ongoing activity is through user engagement to define the best 
way to provide the data to those multiple users through our 
regional and local interactions with the communities.
    Ms. Bonamici. And what's causing the scaling challenge? Is 
it funding? Is it work force? Is it technology, what--why is 
it----
    Dr. Volz. The technology--it's the application of 
technology, No. 1, because we do have the ability to use the 
cloud in a way to disseminate the data better, but there's also 
the--it's a strong--it's a need for better and more engagement 
with the communities and through work force growth in the RISA 
(Regional Integrated Sciences and Assessments), which are the 
the science organizations out of OAR, Office of Atmospheric 
Research, and our Climate Service Directors is actually 
engaging in setting up a larger framework of dynamic 
interactions with the local communities to--in order to tailor 
those climate products, which are different from the WFO 
(Weather Forecast Office), the weather products, as we see that 
is definitely the growth area over the coming years as part of 
a climate service that we will be setting up and establishing 
and delivering.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you so much. I see my time is expired. 
I think I heard from down at this end of the dais that there 
may be another round, which is a good thing because I have more 
questions. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. OK. Excellent. I figured you would.
    Let me now recognize the Congresswoman from Oklahoma, Mrs. 
Bice.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Volz, as I mentioned in my opening statement, data 
processing, distribution, and assimilation are a critical and 
often overlooked part of satellite operations. I think a low-
hanging fruit to increasing access is transitioning to 
capabilities to the cloud. I know this has been an emphasis at 
NOAA for a couple of years, but I'm concerned that the--that 
NOAA tends to prefer owning and managing their own hardware 
internally when running things rather than running things 
through a commercial cloud software provider, which is 
oftentimes a cheaper and more efficient solution and comes with 
less headaches. Can you tell me more about NOAA's current cloud 
capabilities related to satellite data and your outlook on the 
future of cloud services with next-gen satellites?
    Dr. Volz. Thank you, ma'am, for the question. And yes, I'm 
happy to. The--it is not an either/or. It's not we do it in-
house or we use the cloud. It's going to be a combination of 
both. And what we have specifically done within NESDIS is to 
engage with the cloud service providers, several of them, to--
in order to move our data to a cloud environment for easier 
access and dissemination. Now, that doesn't solve the usability 
problem because you have to understand how to use the data as 
well as how to get it. But it is a way that we are moving the 
accessibility to our cloud--to our satellite data directly to a 
cloud-based environment.
    Now, on the--across NOAA, there are a number of different 
activities happening with the--there's the NODD (NOAA Open Data 
Dissemination Program), which the NOAA Open Data Distribution 
Network that NOAA is trying to do writ large, I think there is 
a general understanding within NOAA the need to move 
dissemination--or accessibility to our global datasets to a 
cloud environment, while still having a large portion of in-
house processing and require-capabilities that are necessary 
for the dedicated weather forecast modeling and forecast 
development. So it's a combination of both, and it is a big 
part of our FY20--our budget initiative is asking for access to 
funds to develop a more rapid dissemination and migration to 
cloud environment within NESDIS.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you for that. And to follow up, in a 
previous hearing, there was a conversation around collaboration 
with NOAA and DOE (Department of Energy). DOE has some of the 
most powerful supercomputing capabilities of any agency in 
government. And so can you talk a little bit about what type of 
relationship and how that's going?
    Dr. Volz. So not in great detail, but I'm happy to take 
that question for the record. I would note that even as we move 
more data to the cloud for dissemination, the need--as we have 
more complex data and better models of ecosystems in the larger 
environment, we will need the increased access to high-
performance computing to demonstrate the models which are more 
complex taking in these new data sets. So the--our--NOAA is 
working with DOE, and I'll be happy to take that for the record 
to get some comments back to you on the progress of those 
coordinations with the DOE.
    Mrs. Bice. I would appreciate that. I think that with DOE's 
capabilities--supercomputing capabilities, there is an 
opportunity for collaboration rather than sort of reinventing 
the wheel and spending additional resources that may be able to 
be utilized for other technologies, including new satellites. 
So I thank you for that question, and will submit that for the 
record.
    To follow on that, the National Weather Center in Norman is 
home to both the Advanced Radar Research Center and the 
National Severe Storms Laboratory. Additionally, the NEXRAD 
(Next-Generation Radar) Radar Operation Center is a frequent 
collaborator just down the road. And while today's hearing is 
certainly focused on weather satellites, we can't forget that 
the next-gen of ground-based radars are also being developed.
    Dr. Volz or Mr. Gagosian, with the understanding that 
satellites take years to develop, build, and launch, as well as 
the fact they can't be moved from orbit for upgrades, how does 
NASA and NOAA ensure that space-based instruments complement 
ground radar and account for potential improvements to 
terrestrial observations?
    Dr. Volz. So let me take that first, John, and then I'll 
turn it over to you for addition. So, within NOAA, we have the 
NOAA Observing Systems Council whose primary focus--and I'm one 
of the co-Chairs, along with the National Weather Service 
Director and the OMAO, the Office of Marine and Air--Aviation, 
our co-Chairs, we look at the whole system of observations that 
NOAA has, including ground, space, ocean, et cetera. And the 
complementarity of the ground-based radars with the space-based 
assets are understood and reviewed as a part of the general 
investment strategies we have. And I'll note for an example, 
they actually back each other up. If you go back to the 
incident with Hurricane Maria over Puerto Rico several years 
ago, the one National Weather Service radar system was knocked 
out by the hurricane. And during that period of time before we 
got a temporary replacement in place, we used proxy satellite 
data as an equivalent radar system to provide the winds in the 
radar forecasting--the weather forecasting for the island until 
we could have a ground-based system assessed. So they do 
complement each other even though they are different. But we 
are focused on the delivery of service and not only continuity 
only of a particular technology asset.
    And John, I don't know if you had anything you wanted to 
add to that.
    Mr. Gagosian. So my organization is not really involved in 
the development of the ground-based radars, but one thing we 
are doing--we're working with NOAA on is reducing the 
development timeline for new space systems. So Quick Sounder is 
really a pathfinder for that. We're trying to close the gap 
that way.
    Mrs. Bice. Perfect. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congresswoman, very much.
    Now, let me introduce the--Congress greatest champion for 
travel to Mars, Mr. Perlmutter from Colorado.
    Mr. Perlmutter. I was just coming in to kind of settle in 
and listen, Mr. Chairman, but if--I'm happy to pass and come 
back to me or I can fake it. What would you like me to do?
    Chairman Beyer. If you would prefer that we come back to 
you----
    Mr. Perlmutter. Please.
    Chairman Beyer [continuing]. After Mr. Feenstra, we'd be 
happy to do that.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Sure.
    Chairman Beyer. So the only----
    Mr. Perlmutter. Now, we'll see if he's ready.
    Chairman Beyer. He's been here for a while. Mr. Feenstra 
from Iowa, the floor is yours, sir.
    Mr. Feenstra. Well, I'd just like to say thank you, 
Chairwoman Sherrill and Chairman Beyer, and Ranking Member Bice 
and Babin, for holding this hearing today. And I really want to 
thank the witnesses for their participation.
    The collaboration between NOAA and NASA on weather 
satellites is vital for my district. It's important that we 
understand what's happening at a very quick time. I have seen 
this time and time again. In December, we had significant 
storms move through Iowa. Two years ago, we had the derecho 
that was unheard of at the time. And there's still a lot of 
concerns. I was excited to tour the National Weather Service 
Forecast office on my August recess, and I started 
understanding the importance of weather radar, both ground and 
satellite.
    And that is my question here is, as we move forward, it 
seemed when I was at the National Weather Service that they 
were having a difficult time disseminating tornadoes that were 
F-0, F-1s. And--and, you know, it was pretty late that--that 
they could start seeing F-2s and so forth. But it just seemed 
what was happening was they could see it at--at 8,000 feet and 
higher, but at lower levels they could not.
    So my question to Dr. Volz would be is there a way that we 
can start using satellite radar and satellites to disseminate 
some of these ground--these lower ground tornadoes that start 
at 0--or start at F-0 or F-1s that turn out to be F-3 or 4s? Do 
you see any research going down that path when it comes to 
satellites?
    Dr. Volz. So that's a great question, sir, and appreciate 
asking and knowing how sensitive that region of the country is 
to hurricanes or earthquakes or tornadoes as they occur. And 
you've identified one of the key challenges we have in--from 
observations in real--near real time, which has to be 
geostationary, is really looking down through the atmosphere 
and getting to the lower levels of the atmosphere. And that is 
probably one of the primary benefits we're going to see from 
our geostationary hyperspectral infrared sounder. The imagery 
we have right now can be blocked by clouds and has limitations 
in the vertical disseminate--vertical accuracy or resolution of 
events, whereas the hyperspectral sounder will allow us to be 
much more accurate in measuring the wind speeds and direction 
at multiple levels of the atmosphere, exactly the phenomenon 
you were identifying in your trip to the--for the WFO.
    So the research is going on based on airborne research and 
other research on how to model these events and how to see them 
from space. Our sounder that will be launched as part of GeoXO, 
will be the great--will be our improvement in the technology, 
but we're working with our partners in Europe, who are flying a 
similar sounder in a couple of years and hoping to be able--and 
benefiting from their experience so that we can develop 
products and use them soon and right away when we have our 
systems on orbit. So it is a key piece of what we can do with 
the next-generation GeoXO and is an example of what we 
acknowledge, what we don't know now that we now know how to 
understand better, and that's why we're putting these into our 
program.
    Mr. Feenstra. I thank you for those comments. That's very 
important. I'm glad to hear that as we move forward. I mean, 
technology is so critical and so it's research.
    Dr. Volz, on that same vein, obviously, in Iowa, 
agriculture is paramount. It's probably our most important 
economic engine that we have. And that being said, we have a 
lot of agricultural producers that go down this path. It also 
includes precision ag. And do you see any collaboration when 
you look at precision ag and new weather satellites that could 
work together in--in some capability to help agriculture? Is 
that--anything in that area on the radar?
    Dr. Volz. Yes, and I think that's a key piece of our 
mission objective is not just to tell you when the--when it's 
going to rain or not rain but also to give you a time-based 
understanding of the environment you're dealing with. In our 
research into seasonal and sub-seasonal forecasting, that would 
be a value to agriculture in the broad base but also locally 
about the precipitation outlooks looking beyond the next week 
or 10 days to the season so you have an idea of is it--will it 
be wetter or drier, which can impact the choice of your seed 
crops, what you're going to put in that year, what particular 
type of seeds that you want to plant. But from an ecosystem 
point of view as well, what are the forecasts in the near term 
for humidity and soil moisture over the coming weeks so that 
you can again decide to tailor the application of fertilizer or 
of irrigation to maximize the effects of the performance of 
your crops.
    So these are tailored better information products that are 
possible with better integration of the observations and the 
modeling that are taking place within ocean and atmospheric 
research right now, but also, through better datasets that we 
use in NASA doing some of their research product development as 
well, understanding ecosystem health as a part of--and using 
satellite data for that.
    So I think we definitely have a strong customer in the 
agriculture community and not at the regional level but at 
the--almost at the crop and field level. We can provide these 
kinds of tailored and specific information.
    Mr. Feenstra. Yes, well, Dr. Volz, thank you for that 
information, and hopefully, we can continue to work 
collaboratively on that.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Feenstra, very much.
    If the head coach of the congressional softball team is 
prepared----
    Mr. Perlmutter. I'm readier. Let's put it that way.
    Chairman Beyer. I recognize the gentleman from Colorado.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Yes, I was down--we're asking questions of 
the CEOs of the biggest banks downstairs in Financial Services. 
So I--but I said, no, I got some scientists I got to go talk 
to.
    So I guess my first question--I know Ms. Bonamici was 
asking in this area, and I am sorry if I repeat her question, 
but just, you know, obviously, wildfires have been a huge 
stressor in Colorado and the West. And I am just curious what 
you all at NOAA and those at NASA, what roles you're playing to 
assist our wildfire-fighting efforts. So I'll start with NOAA 
if you like.
    Dr. Volz. Sure, thank you, Representative Perlmutter, and 
thanks for the question. Yes, the wildfires are right on 
everybody's front page. And I would say that one thing we've 
learned from GOES-R series of satellites, we've revolutionized 
the way that we address and serve the fire mission from space. 
Often, the first call that a constituent might get that there's 
a fire in their neighborhood comes from the NOAA Weather 
Forecast Office because they have the image directly from GOES-
R. So we recognize the value of early and accurate detection 
and pinpointing of locations of fires, which come from our 
geostationary satellites. And we realize that with--and our 
next generation--so we're continuing to working that with the 
fire managers on providing that information in the most 
effective and efficient way.
    Our next generation has been tailored to improve that with 
higher spatial resolution and better choice of bandwidth or 
frequencies so that we can see the initiation of fire more 
accurately and precision. And we've realized that the return on 
value of an investment, that is significant. The sooner you get 
to a fire, the sooner--the better chance you have to contain it 
and to reduce the impact of a large fire.
    So part of it is the--is better observations. The other 
part is getting that information directly to the users in the 
right way. And we've had a number of workshops with State and 
local fire emergency managers to get the information not--they 
don't need a GOES image. They need a pinpoint location, so they 
tailor the information products in real time so that they can 
accurately work with them and address it quickly. So GOES----
    Mr. Perlmutter. So are you all part of the firefighting 
team? I mean, do you have somebody stationed up in Boise? You 
know, are you--do you have somebody out of your Colorado 
offices that's dedicated to that?
    Dr. Volz. We work with--we--our weather forecast offices 
are now actively participants with every region around the 
country in dealing with the fire seasons when they occur. But, 
for example, with CAL FIRE (California Department of Forestry 
and Fire Protection) we have--we work with the FEMA (Federal 
Emergency Management Agency)--we work with FEMA but also with--
through our weather forecasts offices with--during emergency 
management of fire events and during fire season. So yes, it is 
distributed. The information is sent directly to all of our 
WFOs, and we work directly with the emergency managers in the 
different regions on responding to fires in anticipation of 
those.
    Mr. Perlmutter. OK. Is--does NASA play any role in this, in 
the firefighting efforts?
    Mr. Gagosian. So what Dr. Volz is describing is the 
operational role of NOAA. NASA is more oriented around, you 
know, the research side, understanding the dynamics, the 
conditions. And if you want, I can take a question for the 
record to tell you what kinds of space-based and/or air-based 
assets we're using for that.
    Mr. Perlmutter. I'd appreciate it because what we found in 
Colorado there--California and Colorado, I think Oregon, too, 
is also using sort of Defense Department assets through a--what 
is it, fire guard or something like that to help us, you know, 
as quickly as possible pinpoint these things, then take the 
data developed by NOAA and the Weather Service to figure out 
where it's going to go and how quickly it's going to get there 
and how to maintain it. So I would appreciate that.
    I guess, Dr. Volz, I have another question probably out of 
left field. The Office of Space Commerce (OSC) how is it--and 
for anybody want to talk about it, is it folding into NOAA and 
the Commerce Department well? How is that working? Because 
we're kind of moving some responsibilities out of NOAA directly 
into that Office of Space Commerce.
    Dr. Volz. So the Office of Space Commerce is not moving out 
of NOAA. It's moving from NESDIS to NOAA, to--both still within 
NOAA, but to--directly responding to--reporting to the Under 
Secretary of Commerce Dr. Spinrad.
    Mr. Perlmutter. That's what I meant. Thank you.
    Dr. Volz. So it is--that transition is still in work, and 
it's moving along well. Richard DalBello, who is the Director 
of OSC, who's actually here with me this week at the 
International Astronautical Congress working with a lot of 
international and technology partners on space commerce and 
space situational awareness. So that is an ongoing activity 
that is moving along well. And it is--it may be a little bit 
out of left field, but it's still--when--if you wanted to start 
talking about space weather, key--we're key part--compatriots 
in understanding the near-Earth environment of the low-Earth 
orbit where space commerce and space situational awareness is 
going to be a key activity.
    Mr. Perlmutter. All right, thank you very much. I'll go 
down and talk to those CEOs now.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Perlmutter.
    Let me recognize the gentleman from Cape Canaveral, 
Congressman Posey.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you, Chairman Beyer, for holding this 
hearing on the next generation of weather satellites.
    Dr. Volz, currently there is no geostationary orbit 
sounding capability over the United States. With all the recent 
flooding, what are we doing to accelerate prioritizing the 
development of that critical technology?
    Dr. Volz. So thank you, sir, for the question. And the 
Hyperspectral Infrared Sounder, which is a key component of the 
GeoXO program, as Fred Meny mentioned earlier on, it had been 
conceived of for the earlier GOES-R but was deemed not 
sufficiently ready for the implementation in '24--2004. It is 
now, and we are--I've actually had steady contracts with 
vendors to build this into our program, and we fully expect and 
hope that will be a part of our--located centrally over the 
United States in our GeoXO constellation, providing 
hyperspectral infrared sounding over the United States. We are 
working with our European partners to be flying a similar 
instrument in about 2 years to understand the application of 
that instrumentation from--for weather forecasting and all the 
other applications we might see. So we're looking forward to 
having that available for you and for all of our customers here 
to better understand storms and weather across the United 
States.
    Mr. Posey. I'm certainly glad to hear that. And as a follow 
up to the first question, specifically, how do you protect 
American innovation and ensure that the American geostationary 
orbit sounding technology will remain on the weather satellites 
of our international partners such as Japan and South Korea, 
enabling the full sharing of this data?
    Dr. Volz. That's a great question. And we have benefited, 
as you're implying, over the last 30 years that Japan and our 
Korean colleagues have used U.S. vendors and U.S. instruments 
to fly the imagers, for example, that are flying right now. And 
that common instrumentation is a--really is a great space and 
timesaver because we have the same observations from East--
Western Africa to Central Asia from the same instruments and 
the same measurements. And it helps our U.S. industry as well.
    We have been working closely with our partners, Japan Met 
Agency and Korean Met Agency, to encourage them to follow and 
they have followed our lead in the past. The sooner we get our 
systems designed and--defined and initiated, the greater the 
likelihood we'll be able to maintain and continue that 
coordinated development with our Asian partners who have been 
key participants with us over the past. They have their own 
timelines, and they're eager to get going on geostationary 
observations for this next generation as well, so it's a race 
to the--to get the start going as soon as we can. And we hope 
to see GeoXO confirmed within our own department in December of 
this year with the path forward defined.
    Mr. Posey. Well, that's great. You know, other agencies are 
rapidly increasing their low-Earth orbit satellites to advance 
capabilities and achieve more frequent global refresh. You 
know, what is NOAA's plan for moving out on the next generation 
of low-Earth orbit?
    Dr. Volz. I'll start and John can finish. The--we are 
already in a rapid acceleration of low-Earth orbit assets, and 
one of the key hallmarks of NOAA's program is that it's not 
just NOAA satellites we use, it's everybody's if they have good 
data that we can use. And we now incorporate data from 20 or so 
different agencies and national partners into our numerical 
weather forecasting based on interagency partner agreements. So 
we already are disaggregated. NOAA is working with its Quick 
Sounder approach to complement the JPSS program with a series--
upcoming series of small satellites focused on individual 
observations, and that's part of what John Gagosian was saying 
about the innovation is not just in technology, but it's in the 
implementation approach, which allows for a rapid refresh, new 
technology infusion, and as--and integration into our programs 
and utilization of commercial assets when they're available. 
And that's a key part of our overall program.
    Mr. Posey. Do you think it's possible to accelerate 
launches, move--move it up even faster?
    Dr. Volz. Yes, it could. It is, sir. I think the the Quick 
Sounder approach that we've initiated just this year is 
targeting a 2025 launch. And with additional funds--with the 
appropriate funding and the positive outcome of this program, 
we're looking at the second half of this decade, we should--we 
could be launching the next generation of complementary 
missions from SmallSats out of the NOAA program.
    Mr. Posey. Well, that's really great. And I see my time is 
about to expire, so I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congressman Posey.
    I will now do a second round of questions for the stalwarts 
who are hanging in. Let me begin.
    Mr. Meny, we just heard a lot about, you know, the next-
generation satellites and GOES-R, GeoXO. One of your 
recommendations was that the next-generation satellite programs 
don't define more stringent requirement thresholds than the 
corresponding thresholds in the dataset. Tell us more about 
that. Is there the notion that we're overdesigning based on 
what we can actually use?
    Mr. Meny. Thank you for the question, Chairman. The 
situation is that NOAA's policy on their user observation 
requirements is to look and revalidate those observation 
requirements at least every 4 years. In our work, we found that 
76 percent of those observational requirements haven't been 
revalidated in over 5 years, and 18 percent haven't been 
revalidated over 18 years. So when you look at that process, 
it's hard for the user observation requirement to transcend 
down into what is being built on a satellite. So typically, the 
satellite programs are putting together their specifications 
and their thresholds, which is, you know, what, you know, the 
minimum requirement is, is much higher than what is in the user 
observation data base.
    So what we're saying in that case is, one, the policy for 
looking at those requirements should be refreshed and updated 
to be more accurate if that's the need; and then, two, if in 
fact the threshold requirement, the minimum requirement is what 
is acceptable, maybe that should be an observation--excuse me, 
an objective requirement and have a lower tradeoff, a smaller 
like requirement underneath that so there's a trade space. We 
found that in the GOES magnetometer recently, the one that 
was--had a problem in development. Its actual mission was 
meeting much higher--it was supposed to be a much higher--much 
higher requirements than what was actually in the prior series, 
which they fell back to do. And that's in the GOES-R program, 
the only requirement that has a difference between the 
threshold and objective values.
    Chairman Beyer. Great. Thank you very much.
    Dr. Volz, I'd love you to respond to it, but let me also 
throw a question on top of that, which is you had said that 90 
percent of all data used by NOAA's operational forecast is 
coming from satellites right now. I'd love to know about the 
relevance of the extensive network of ground-based weather 
observation right now. How relevant is that 10 percent?
    Dr. Volz. It's absolutely essential, sir. So the 90 
percent/10 percent is not a valuation of 90 percent value, 10 
percent value. Without the ground datasets, the satellite 
datasets would be unmoored, unconnected to ground calibration 
and validation, so it is essential that we have both. But the--
what the satellites provide is that global picture, especially 
over the oceans and sparsely--with places where we don't have 
ground calibration validation to give you that global picture, 
which is essential for doing the long-term forecast. But the 
ground datasets, the ASUS networks, the Weather Service, the 
balloons, the airborne are absolutely necessary to have a well-
performing system, but we need both in other words.
    Back to to Mr. Meny's point, I fully agree that our 
requirements validation process that identifies a certain 
refresh rate is not being satisfied. We did not meet that. 
However, we did not rely on archaic requirement sets as the 
basis for definition of the GeoXO. Recognizing this was a 
problem, we actually went out and extensively researched and 
communicated with the end users and the internal NOAA users on 
how they want to and expect to use observations from GEO 
(geostationary), from GOES, from geostationary and built that 
into our requirements definition process, recognizing that we 
don't have the refresh rates that we need, but we are working 
in parallel to improve that. Through the--as we go to each 
program, we're looking to upgrade and update the requirements 
datasets. But I fully agree with his point that we need to 
accelerate the refresh approach that we have for our 
requirements, and that's one of the objectives, again, through 
our NOAA Observing Systems Council that we are--we're 
championing within NOAA to make sure that we do this more 
systematically, but we--rather do everything at once, we're 
focused on the ones where we have to make investments and 
making sure those investments are based on well-validated 
requirements, which we do believe we have for GeoXO.
    Chairman Beyer. Great, thank you.
    Mr. Gagosian, do you have any short follow up to that?
    Mr. Gagosian. Very short, I just wanted to point out that 
for all of our design reviews for GeoXO and all of our 
lifecycle reviews, we have now specific criteria for user 
engagement to make sure that the kind of user engagement that 
Mr. Meny was describing is actually occurring.
    Chairman Beyer. Great. Thank you very much. Let me 
recognize the Ranking Member of the Committee.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, thank you. I'm glad to come back through 
with a second--second round. I appreciate it.
    I have an additional question for Dr. Volz and for Mr. 
Meny, NOAA and the Inspector General's Office. Will the 
Department of Defense's future weather plans include flying the 
Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite, or VIIRS, 
instrument? VIIRS was the source of a lot of problems during 
the development, and the taxpayers invested a lot of money to 
ensure that it met both NOAA and DOD requirements. Despite 
early issues, it has returned tremendous scientific and 
operational results. NOAA flies VIIRS on JPSS right now to the 
benefit of DOD. And it is my understanding that DOD recently 
decided not to fly VIIRS in the early morning orbit, which it 
is responsible for after the breakup of NPOESS. DOD has a much 
larger budget than NOAA. That's an understatement. So it's a 
little odd that NOAA may be carrying DOD's water in this 
instance.
    Furthermore, I wonder if there would be any discrepancies 
with data continuity if DOD was to fly a different sensor or a 
gap in coverage if they don't fly any sensor at all. Can each 
of you elaborate on the benefits of the DOD flying VIIRS?
    Dr. Volz. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Babin. Dr. Volz, yes, sir, you first.
    Dr. Volz. [inaudible] question. So, yes, the VIIRS--VIIRS 
was a beast to build. It was--as you mentioned, I think MODIS 
was the precursor and we ended up building VIIRS. It is a very 
capable instrument with multiple--and it turned out to be the 
greatest producer of products that NOAA--that the JPSS program 
produces. Many, many applications have been benefited from 
that. And we will be flying VIIRS through the 2040's on JPSS-1, 
-2, -3 and -4. The key is need for imagery in the morning orbit 
is--does not require the full breadth of what VIIRS provides. 
It requires a fairly narrow slice of that. There was larger 
objectives for VIIRS.
    So the fact that the DOD is not flying a VIIRS in the 
morning orbit is certainly meeting still--but still meets 
their--as far as I understand it, and you should--we need to 
have the DOD confirmed this--meets their mission objectives 
without covering the full spectrum of what the VIIRS does 
provide. So we need VIIRS for what it does for us in the 
afternoon orbit. In fact, the Europeans are flying a similar 
instrument called METimage, which will be flying on their 
second generation in the morning orbit. So between EUMETSAT 
(European Organization for the Exploitation of Meteorological 
Satellites) and NOAA, we will have two orbital coverages, not 
exactly the same instrument but close.
    And the DOD is going with a different approach for their 
specific mission objective, which really was one of the reasons 
for the default--the failure of NPOESS was that the divergence 
of requirements led to different missions and different 
observations in different orbits. I don't think we're carrying 
the water for the DOD. I think VIIRS is a product--a service 
suite that services us but many others, and we hope to benefit 
from their observations in their orbits as well when they are 
flying their disaggregated imagery in the coming years.
    Mr. Babin. OK. Thank you.
    Mr. Meny?
    Mr. Meny. Thank you for the question. Unfortunately, we 
haven't looked at that, so I'll have to take that for the 
record to come back. However, I do understand the concern about 
what we're doing for other services when they have a larger 
budget than what Commerce has. So----
    Mr. Babin. Right.
    Mr. Meny [continuing]. We'll take a look at it, but for 
their orbit and picking up VIIRS, I don't have any information 
I can provide right now, but I'd be happy to take your question 
for the record.
    Mr. Babin. OK. That's good. I think I'll just yield back to 
you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you all.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Babin, very much.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Beyer. I recognize the Congresswoman from Oregon, 
Ms. Bonamici.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    There have been a couple of hearings in this Committee that 
the reaction was this is incredibly alarming. And one of them 
was yesterday about the Arctic and the melting permafrost and 
the other one was about spectrum, so that's what I'm going to 
ask about. This Committee has had a long history of bipartisan 
concern about harmful interference in the radio spectrum that 
can undermine the performance of scientific instruments such as 
NOAA weather satellites. Last summer, this Committee held a 
hearing to examine the potential radiofrequency interference 
that could possibly deteriorate weather forecasting 
capabilities, as well as opportunities to mitigate, sorry, any 
harmful interference.
    So, Dr. Volz, why can interference be so harmful and 
challenging to mitigate for the types of measurements that NOAA 
satellites collect, especially for passive remote sensing? And 
what are your concerns for future radiofrequency interference 
with the Earth remote sensing satellite operations, including 
any actions or developments at the domestic or international 
level?
    Dr. Volz. So thank you, Congresswoman Bonamici, for the 
question related to the spectrum. The reason that passive--that 
use of--the active use of the spectrum from terrestrial sources 
is a problem for us in some areas is that we rely on with our 
passive instruments, microwave in particular, looking for the 
passive emission of signals from natural sources in various 
bands through what are called transparent or atmospheric 
windows, things that are not attenuated by the atmosphere. And 
a couple of those, they happen to be those places where the 
atmosphere doesn't attenuate radio frequencies are the best 
places for radiofrequency uses as well, so there's conflict 
already between the passive window and the active use of that. 
And we saw this in a couple of the microwave soundings like at 
24 gigahertz and in the 50 gigahertz range where those are 
windows that we use because they reveal temperature and 
pressure profiles in the atmosphere all the way down to the 
ground. And now those are where you might see 5G application. 
You sell that spectrum for other use.
    So what the problem is, if there's an active source, it 
interferes with the passive, and the active source can be much 
larger and time varying, and it raises the noise level of our 
signals and eliminates the value of the observation. So that is 
a concern for us, for all of the observers of the passive 
observations of the planet, of the Earth. And it is--and there 
have been a lot of ongoing activity on how to co-use and--how 
to use--how to co-incident or co-reside in the same spectrum 
and nearby.
    And I think that is--we have ongoing conversations with the 
World Radio Conference, the WRC, as we call it, to try and find 
the right separations between active use and passive use, and I 
think we have it at a better place now in the coordination and 
discussion on what are the allowable uses in parallel bands, 
but it requires a careful coordination going into the global 
application.
    Ms. Bonamici. Well, I'm going to ask Mr. Gagosian then. How 
does NASA incorporate radiofrequency interference mitigation 
technologies into the development of weather satellites?
    Mr. Gagosian. So when you're looking at how to mitigate, we 
are working with NOAA on some studies for instruments that we 
could fly to measure the ground-based interference sources. So 
we've come up with concepts, and at this point, really, it's a 
tradeoff, right? There's certain investment that would be 
required versus the impact--the potential impact on the 
observations. And Dr. Volz can confirm this, but it's--I think 
it's up to NOAA to really do that--sort of that trade, right, 
to assess the cost versus the benefit of that type of 
instrument. But we have collaborated with them on those 
studies.
    Ms. Bonamici. Terrific. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congresswoman.
    Now, finally, I recognize the Congresswoman from Oklahoma, 
Mrs. Bice.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I actually don't have 
any additional questions, so----
    Chairman Beyer. All right. Well, thank you. Then I believe 
we are done. Good.
    Well, before we bring the hearing to a close, thank you 
very much for hanging in through these long 90 minutes, all our 
witnesses for being here in person and virtually. And thank you 
for the work you do. The weather, whether you live in Oklahoma 
or Oregon or even Virginia and Texas, it's incredibly 
important. And knowing and being able to predict what's going 
to happen today, tomorrow, next week is essential. So thank you 
very much for all that you do.
    The record will remain open for two weeks for additional 
statements from the Members or for any additional questions the 
Committee may ask for the witnesses. The witnesses are excused, 
and the hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:29 a.m., the Subcommittees were 
adjourned.]

                                Appendix

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                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions


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