[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MAY 12, 2022
__________
Serial No. 117-121
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
_________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
51-644PDF WASHINGTON : 2023
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman
BRAD SHERMAN, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
KAREN BASS, California
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
AMI BERA, California
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
DINA TITUS, Nevada
TED LIEU, California
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
COLIN ALLRED, Texas
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey
ANDY KIM, New Jersey
SARA JACOBS, California
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
JIM COSTA, California
JUAN VARGAS, California
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
JOE WILSON, South Carolina
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
DARRELL ISSA, California
ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
LEE ZELDIN, New York
ANN WAGNER, Missouri
BRIAN MAST, Florida
BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
KEN BUCK, Colorado
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
MARK GREEN, Tennessee
ANDY BARR, Kentucky
GREG STEUBE, Florida
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
PETER MEIJER, Michigan
NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
RONNY JACKSON, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESSES
Hoyer, Hon. Steny, A Representative in Congress From the State of
Maryland, and Majority Leader, U.S. House of Representatives;.. 5
Westerman, Hon. Bruce, A Representative in Congress From the
State of Arkansas, and Ranking Member, House Committee on
Natural Resources, U.S. House of Representatives............... 12
Sanjayan, Dr. M., Chief Executive Officer, Conservation
International.................................................. 17
Ibrahim, Hindou Oumarou, President, Association for Indigenous
Women and Peoples if Chad (AFPAT).............................. 24
Bandura, Romina, Senior Fellow, Project on Prosperity and
Development, Center for Strategic and International Studies.... 31
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 50
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 52
Hearing Attendance............................................... 53
STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM CHAIRMAN MEEKS
Statement for the record from Chairman Meeks..................... 54
STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY
Statement for the record from Representative Connolly............ 56
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Responses to questions submitted for the record.................. 58
FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT
AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE
Thursday, May 12, 2022
House of Representatives,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:12 a.m., in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gregory Meeks
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
Chairman Meeks. The Committee on Foreign Affairs will come
to order. And without objection, the Chair is authorized to
declare a recess of the Committee at any point, and all Members
will have 5 days to submit statements, extraneous materials,
and questions for the record, subject to the length,
limitation, and the rules.
To insert something into the record, please have your staff
email the previously mentioned address, or contact full
committee staff.
And as a reminder, for Members participating remotely,
please keep your video function on at all times, even when
you're not recognized by the Chair.
And Members are responsible for muting and unmuting
themselves. Consistent with House rules, staff will only mute
Members as appropriate, when they are not under recognition, to
eliminate background noise.
I see that we have a quorum. And I now recognize myself for
opening remarks.
Exactly 1 year ago today, this Committee held a hearing on
the threat of climate change to our planet, it's ecosystems and
our livelihoods. And with Special Envoy John Kerry as our
guest, we were able to examine the United States' role in
rallying global support ahead of COP26 in Glasgow.
In Glasgow the United States was able to keep ambition high
across a broad spectrum of challenge related to climate change.
As a result, the world was able to move the ball forward on
several critical issues, including mitigation, adaptation, and
finance.
And I want to thank our witnesses and members of civil
society for being here today, and for their work surrounding
the event as well.
A year seems like a long time ago, and global politics have
changed. And an unjustified war of aggression by a nuclear
power has upended the postwar settlement, and rekindled threats
that were thought left in the last century.
In 2021, we saw the global economy rebound. And it rebound
rapidly and unevenly, along with CO2 emissions. And according
to the International Energy Agency, coal accounted for over 40
percent of the overall growth in global CO2 emissions in 2021,
compounded by the high natural gas prices.
However, the planet does not care for geopolitics or
prices. On the contrary, our oceans, and forest, and tundra,
are being reshaped and destroyed at a frightening pace.
As stewards of this earth, it is our duty to take action
before the damage we're inflicting becomes irreversible.
Further generations should not be forced to inherit a global
crisis of our own making.
So, today we are taking the time to examine the role of
force in the fight against climate change and its worst
effects. We're also going to discuss proposed solutions to slow
down deforestation, stop illegal logging, and incentivize the
protection of existing primary forests.
Forests are essential to the good health of our planet, and
by extension, our very survival. They are carbon six, holding
more carbon than is produced annually by humans.
They're a home. Home to more than three quarters of the
world's life on land, representing delicate biodiversity. They
are living spaces for humanity. Over one billion people around
the world rely on forests for shelter and livelihoods,
including 60 million indigenous people.
When these cathedrals for nature are under threat, or
burned, or turned into agricultural land, these livelihoods are
under threat. Biodiversity is under threat, and that carbon is
released into the atmosphere.
However, when we protect forests, they represent a solution
to combating, even reversing climate change. And this was the
goal of the UK government leading in Glasgow, a commitment to
end deforestation by 2030.
Even China has signed onto the pledge. So, the United
States has a role to play in this ambitious endeavor. Indeed,
the difficulty is in the follow through. The devil is always in
the details.
Missing from earlier attempts to halt the drivers of
deforestation were important factors, including indigenous
voices who are directly impacted by deforestation. The
solutions are not one size fits all. Sometimes simply allowing
and enabling those with the most experience, and those with the
most to lose, will help, and indeed lead the process.
I'll stop there. And I'll turn to Mr. McCaul for his
opening remarks.
Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank
Majority Leader Hoyer for being here today, and talking about
your AMAZON21 Bill, and the Natural Resources Ranking Member
Westerman, for joining us to discuss your work to address
deforestation.
As the Ranking Member of this Committee, I've had the
opportunity to travel to Africa and Latin America, and I've
seen the importance of conservation and preserving our
environmental environment first hand.
This Committee has an important role to play in conserving
the environment, and that includes forests, marine sanctuaries,
and endangered species around the world.
Since my early days of serving in Congress, I've been a
member of the International Conservation Caucus, one of the
largest and most bipartisan caucuses in Congress.
Conservation is a logical solution in addressing climate
change. It's been championed by Republicans for over a century,
all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt.
He understood that we must protect our environment in
sustainability, and manage our natural resources before it's
too late. And I've been proud to have advanced bipartisan
conservation efforts here in Congress.
I've supported Congressman Chabot's Tropical Forest and
Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act, and former
Chairman Royce's legislation supporting a conservation area in
southern Africa, the DELTA Act.
I'm also the original cosponsor of Ranking Member
Westerman's Trillion Trees Act. The United States has, and will
continue to play an important role in preventing deforestation.
And Mr. Chairman, I think we both have the same goal here.
In the last 5 years alone, over $2 billion has been provided by
Congress to protect critical landscapes, and empower
communities to manage their own resources.
But, there are other tools on the table aside from
traditional foreign aid. For instance, engaging in debt for
nature swaps and debt buyback programs, the United States is
helping preserve land across the globe.
The U.S. Development Finance Corporation has an important
role to play as well. To engage the private sector and advance
new innovations.
Unfortunately, these efforts are under kept by the maligned
activities of the People's Republic of China. China accounts
for nearly a third of the global emissions.
In fact, the PRC's emissions grew four times more than what
the U.S. reduced. Today, China emits more than the entire
developed world.
CCP General Xi Jinping has said China only intends to
become carbon neutral by 2060, a full decade after other major
economies.
We cannot wait decades hoping the CCP will be a reliable
partner in addressing climate change. And we must also not be
afraid to call them out on this.
Their search for rosewood, an endangered hardwood used in
traditional Chinese furniture has devastated the forests of
Madagascar and the Mekong region. We also must stop illegal
logging.
We must decrease demand while increasing U.S. options on
the global market for lumber, agriculture, energy, and critical
minerals. This will decrease global emissions as the U.S. does
it more efficiently and cleaner.
America's a world leader in reducing carbon emissions,
reducing emissions more than the next seven countries combined.
And by 2030, over 90 percent of global emissions will come from
outside the United States.
I would have to say that America's climate policy should be
based on America's resources, innovation, and our ability to
compete to reduce global emissions.
As I said, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Leader, we all have the
same goal here. I'm intrigued by the idea of the rain forest.
I've often said they are the lines of the world. And whatever
we can do to help preserve the lines of the world, our children
will be better, and their children will be better off.
And so with that, I yield back.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Keating. We'll now hear from
the Chair and the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee that has
oversight on climate and the environment.
We'll start with Chairman Keating, we now recognize for 1
minute.
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank the
Leader, and Congressman Westerman, for being here today.
There are many issues that the clock has already ticked on.
And our environment is in a short period of time to deal with
these.
This is an important bill, because it takes the
organization and the power of the State to take action, and to
prioritize, and have some oversight over, you know, where the
projects that are working, that will work, that will save
ourselves, will take place.
I just want to make one note of the deforestation issue
that occurs in many areas, because it's going to be affected
directly by our Ukraine war.
Forty percent of the fertilizer in this world comes from
Belarus and Russia. There's an enormous crisis right now on
fertilizer. This is going to expand.
And I'm afraid that the slash and burn type tactics that,
or practices that are used for fertilizing for these countries,
it's only going to expand. And it will expand in the worst
places possible.
So, Mr. Chairman, I would say, this is the time that's even
crisis on crisis that's occurring with this. And this is why I
support this bill and would love to see it move forward
expeditiously.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Meeks. I now recognize Representative Steve Chabot
for 1 minute.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding
this hearing today. I want to thank Mr. Hoyer and Mr. Westerman
for being here.
And thank the Ranking Member for his kind remarks about the
legislation which we have cosponsored in the House, along with
Mr. Sherman, my Democratic colleague, and Mr. Portman and Chair
Brown over in the Senate.
We've been pushing this for a long time, it's the Tropical
Forest and Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act. It
passed this Committee in a bipartisan basis this past year. And
I'd like to focus my attention during the course of the hearing
on that to some degree.
We do also have, as I'm sure the Chair knows, we've got the
Conference Committee. So, some of us are going to have to go
over on that. And so we maybe in and out of here. And I know
many of the members are participating virtually today.
But, thank you for holding this hearing. We'd love to get
that legislation across the finish line and get it passed into
law if at all possible.
I yield back.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chabot. And today we have
two panels with very distinguished witnesses.
And of course on our first panel, we'll start with the very
distinguished Majority Leader of the House, Steny Hoyer, from
the great State of Maryland, who has been a long time leader in
international climate space, and more importantly, a driving
force behind efforts in this Congress to combat deforestation.
And this is highlighted by his work on AMAZON21, which we
will discuss very shortly. And I want to thank him for taking
time from his schedule to be before our Committee today.
And I also welcome the Ranking Member of the House
Committee on Natural Resources, Bruce Westerman, from the great
State of Arkansas.
Ranking Member Westerman's work on Natural Resources
Committee underscores the connection between domestic and
international policy in this space. And we also appreciate you
being here, Mr. Ranking Member.
I now recognize the Majority Leader for his remarks.
STATEMENT OF HON. STENY HOYER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND, AND
MAJORITY LEADER, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. Hoyer. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having
this hearing, but, more importantly, thank you for your
statement and your commitment to the objectives that we, as Mr.
McCaul said, all share. Mr. Chabot has said that as well.
And I want to thank Mr. Keating for his leadership on this.
Mr. Cicilline, thank you for being here and your work, and
Ms. Manning, for being here.
Let me start, Mr. Chairman, with the fact that this bill
has a very simple proposition. And that proposition is, if we
need to buy fertilizer, and we need to buy oil, and we need to
buy coal, or we need to buy some other source, we expect to
have that taken out of the land or the mine and given to us,
and we, in turn, pay for it.
The problem we have with the forest is the farmer who lives
next door to the rainforest and who may want another 10 acres
to farm, so he or she can support their family, their incentive
is to take that rainforest out of the ground. The problem is
the resource that we get from that rainforest is oxygen, which
allows us to live. And we do not want him or her, or the
government, to take it out of the ground.
So, in a system that is incentivized by being able to
support one's self, and therefore, get money in return for
their product, we take the oxygen, but we do not pay for it.
So, this is not charity. This is not foreign aid. This is you
have something of value that you give us to us every day by
having those trees in the ground, and we want you to keep them
in the ground. So, the challenge is, how do we incentivize? How
do we make that farmer able to support himself and his family
or, frankly, that government be able to support itself, as
opposed to selling it for wood, housing, whatever?
And that is what this bill seeks to do. So, Mr. Chairman, I
thank you for holding this hearing and allowing me to speak on
an issue that has been close to my heart for a very long time.
I started talking about this 20 years ago, and I am upset with
myself that I did not pursue it more vigorously.
Protecting the rainforest, and by extension, the health of
our planet. Absorbing vast quantities of greenhouse gases,
natural carbon sinks--such as rainforests, mangroves,
peatlands, wetlands--serve, as Mr. McCaul said, the Earth's
lungs. Without lungs, we die.
Their well-being is inextricably linked, therefore, to that
of humanity. In recent decades, however, deforestation has
destroyed swaths, millions of acres, of these critical lands--
worsening our climate crisis while simultaneously removing one
of our greatest natural tools to address it.
It is because of deforestation that Brazil and Indonesia
are among the world's top 10 emitters of carbon. Indeed, the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the world's leading
climate scientific authority, has found that destruction of
natural carbon sinks accounts for as much as a quarter of the
world's total greenhouse gas emissions--rivaling or perhaps
exceeding China.
We need to take immediate and decisive action to protect
these ecosystems. Our global effort to combat the climate
crisis depends upon it. The future of the planet depends on it.
The survival and success of humanity, ultimately, depends on
it.
At the COP26 conference, to which the chairman referred, in
Glasgow last year, President Biden joined the leaders of 100
other nations in an historic pledge to end deforestation by the
end of the decade.
Those of us who live in the so-called industrialized world
use what is in the non-industrialized world--Brazil, of course,
is both--we use their product. We do not see it and we do not
pay for it. That is what this bill is about--incentivizing
monetarily the retaining of these forests which we so badly
need.
AMAZON21--by the way, AMAZON is a wonderful acronym that I
can hardly ever remember--but, just for your interest's sake,
it says America Mitigating and Achieving Zero Emissions
Originating from Nature. How is that for a tongue twister? But
AMAZON itself is pretty easy to remember.
AMAZON21 would help fulfill America's commitment to that
global pledge--not just America, but these hundred other
nations--commitment to that global pledge by establishing a
trust fund which will enable the State Department to forge
agreements with developing nations that will protect and
restore their carbon sinks.
In the past, the United States has been limited in its
ability to enter into these bilateral agreements because of the
short-term nature of funding through the annual appropriations
process. Solving that longstanding issue, however, requires
making long-lasting commitments.
The trust fund created under my legislation--and ``my
legislation,'' so many hundreds of people have worked on this
legislation; I just happen to have my name at the front of it;
I am proud of that, but I am so proud of the work they have
done--would authorize the financing of conservation or
restoration of nature-based climate projects abroad that
protect carbon sinks far into the future.
Similarly, AMAZON21 emphasizes transparency and results-
based funding model to ensure our partners make good on their
promise to halt deforestation. We are not going to pay money
without making sure that, in fact, we are getting what we are
paying for. Nations that enter into agreements with us through
this legislation must agree to rigorous external monitoring,
reporting, and verification of their progress. We know what
satellites can do. You cannot hide from them.
Improvements in satellite imagery capabilities have already
made it impossible for partners to hide any violation. It is
simple. If countries do not meet the terms of this agreement,
of the agreement they have, they won't receive funding.
In a sense, Mr. Chairman, this is about paying producers
for a resource from which we already benefit, as I have said.
That resource is the clean air we breathe. These payments are
an investment in the continued availability of clean air and
sustainable planet for us, for our children, and for
generations of Americans to come.
Moreover, the trust fund is designed to accept gifts from
foundations, individuals, private companies, and other
developed nations--this is a team project; this is not a U.S.
project--to help maximize the impact of America's public
investment. It is through these types of private-public
partnerships that we can truly begin to tackle the
deforestation crisis affecting our planet.
AMAZON21 will also help developing nations participate in
carbon markets, an important tool to leverage resources from
the private sector to fund conservation work--getting credits.
These agreements would allow us to shore up our relationships
with developing nations that may otherwise fall under the
influence, frankly, of authoritarian regimes seeking to exploit
their resources instead of protecting them.
It would also create a new technical assistance program in
USAID to help them build their capacity to develop nature-based
reforestation projects and scale them up, which I think Mr.
Westerman's bill certainly would be helped by.
Mr. Chairman, helping these nations protect their
rainforests serves our national security interest and the
attainment of our climate goals, to which both of you referred.
Members of this committee know full well the long game that
autocratic countries are playing in the developing world with
initiatives like China's Belt and Road.
We need to think creatively about how the United States can
further our national security objectives while also tackling
global challenges like deforestation in the process. With
AMAZON21, America can firmly reestablish itself as a global
leader when it comes to addressing the climate crisis.
Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member McCaul, each and every
person has a stake in this legislation's success. Whether you
live in Bogota, Colombia; Brandywine, Maryland, in my district;
Austin, Texas, in your district, we all depend on the clean air
that Earth's rainforests and other carbon sinks help to
protect.
The climate crisis affects us all, and particularly, the
most vulnerable and those with the fewest resources, as the
committee will hear shortly. Programs like AMAZON21 are the
most impactful and cost-effective options, in my view,
available to us today to address the climate change.
This model has already proven to work by nations like
Norway and the United Kingdom, who have similar programs, and
others that will set up similar trust funds and authorities.
For a sense of scale, if fully funded, Mr. Chairman and Ranking
Member McCaul, these programs in this bill would eliminate as
many as 180 million metric tons of carbon emissions each year--
an amount equal to the total CO2 produced by cars in the United
States over a 2-year period.
That is why I was proud to introduce AMAZON21 in the House
last November and why I am glad to have this opportunity to
speak about it with the committee today.
And I want to thank Mr. Westerman. I do not know Mr.
Westerman very well. We are a big body and we have not worked
on things together. But I am so enthusiastic and appreciative
of his participation with his bill, this bill, and other
efforts that will join together. Mr. Chabot mentioned the
legislation that he has. If we join these together, we are
going to make a real impact for generations yet to come.
I want to thank Mr. Sanjayan of the Conservation
International for working closely with me on this bill over the
past few years. You are going to hear from him in a little bit.
I also want to thank Hindou Ibrahim for sharing her
insights with the committee today and the perspective of
indigenous peoples and others most vulnerable to the climate
crisis.
I also want to thank Chairman Meeks again for holding
today's hearing and for cosponsoring this legislation with me,
as well as Chairman Keating for shepherding AMAZON21 through
the Europe, Eurasia, Energy, and Environment Subcommittee.
I also want to thank all of you who are in attendance at
the hearing today.
I think this will have a major impact, Mr. Chairman. You
and I have talked about this. I very much appreciate, as I
said, your opening statement, which heightens the
responsibility that we have. And I want to thank you for being
tolerant with your time as well.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hoyer follows:]
********* COMMITTEE INSERT **********
Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Majority Leader, for your
leadership. And as you said, and as the ranking member said,
this is something that we could all agree and focus on it. That
is why, with you, I am happy to have Representative Westerman
join us.
And, Mr. Westerman, you are now recognized for your
comments.
STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE WESTERMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF ARKANSAS, AND RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE
ON NATURAL RESOURCES, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member
McCaul, and to the members of the committee. It is an honor to
be here with Leader Shoyer, or Hoyer, to talk about--I have
kind of combined ``Steny'' and ``Hoyer'' at one time to talk
about something that we should all be able to agree on.
And I am really excited about the topic of this hearing,
and I am more excited from the fact that this is the Foreign
Affairs Committee addressing this, because I think it is
recognition by Congress that carbon in the atmosphere and
solving that puzzle is not something we can solve alone.
The atmosphere is a global entity. It does not have
borders. And we cannot solve the carbon emissions into the
atmosphere in the United States. It has to be a global effort
to solve global carbon.
And just to get some facts out on the table--and I will
also tell you, when I was studying forestry at Yale's Graduate
School, if I had known I was going to 1 day be the only
forester in Congress, I might have taken more classes and
studied a little harder.
[Laughter.]
But this is a topic that I am passionate about, and it is a
topic we should all be passionate about. Because before the
Industrial Revolution, there were 280 parts per million of
carbon in the atmosphere. Today, there is 419 parts per million
of carbon in the atmosphere. Without some carbon in the
atmosphere to create a little bit of a greenhouse effect, we
would freeze to death. Too much carbon in the atmosphere, we
generate too much heat. So, there is a delicate balance there.
We talked about the Trillion Trees Act. We talked about how
Teddy Roosevelt said trees or forests are the lungs of the
Earth. They breathe in carbon dioxide and they breathe out
oxygen.
If we think about that in a little more detail, trees are
by far the largest scale, they are the most pragmatic,
proactive solution that we have to atmosphere carbon. You hear
all this talk about carbon capture and sequestration. Trees
have been doing that since there has been trees on the planet.
They pull the carbon dioxide out of the air. The photosynthesis
in the internal parts of the leaf, they take that carbon and
they make hydrocarbon tanks that are stored in the wood, and
they give H20 and oxygen back out into the atmosphere. We know
that science.
But trees also offer a phenomenal benefit, in that wood is
the ultimate carbon battery. And we talk about battery
technologies. If you want to talk about something that stores
carbon, it is wood. The wood in this table at one time was
atmosphere carbon. Fifty percent of this wood by weight is
carbon. And as long as this table is here, that carbon will be
sequestered.
That is why we have to look at the big picture here. We
have to look at not only how we keep forests healthy and
vibrant, but how do we use them--and that is what real
conservation is--how do we use them to make a difference?
I want to tell you the story of Arkansas, and this is a
story that is really across the South. Last year, the State of
Arkansas grew 44 million tons of wood. The State also harvested
24 million tons of trees. Those trees got converted into wood.
They are going into homes and they are storing carbon.
There is 20 million more tons of wood in the State of
Arkansas today than there was this time last year because the
forests were managed healthier. And we can use our trees. We
can grow them faster and grow more. We can protect special
areas, and we can create building products that are very
sustainable.
That is why a company called Walmart in my home State is
building their new corporate headquarters out of mass timber.
Their new corporate headquarter building will contain 17
million pounds of carbon when it is completed. It will be built
with trees that were sustainably grown in reforested areas in
Arkansas, creating local jobs and economic growth.
That is the great story we have about forestry and trees,
is that we can have a healthy environment and we can have a
vibrant economy all at the same time. The impetus behind the
Trillion Trees Act was a study that said that, if we planted a
trillion trees across the planet, we could capture two-thirds
of the carbon emitted by man since the beginning of the
Industrial Revolution. That is 205 gigatons of carbon that a
trillion trees would sequester.
And for any other tree nerds out there, we have about 3
trillion trees on the planet today. Scientists estimate that at
one time there were 7 trillion trees. So, we have got a lot of
headroom as far as we could go in creating more forests.
Another fact that people do not realize is that, since
1850, we have emitted over 200 gigatons of carbon through
deforestation by forest fires. And we are not immune from that
here in the United States. Last year, we burned 7 million acres
of forests. The year before, it was 10 million acres--putting
millions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere that was
sequestered in the trees.
And there is another side of that story. When you burn a
tree, you are releasing carbon dioxide. When you char the tree
and leave it on the ground and the bugs eat it, you are
releasing methane, CH4, which is a worst greenhouse gas than
carbon dioxide. There is nothing we can do to help air, water,
and wildlife habitat more than having healthy forests.
And, Leader Hoyer, I would love to work with you on this.
And I thank you would find, though, a willing group in the
Republican Party who could work on real forest reform on bills
like the Trillion Trees Act.
The bottom line is we have to take care of the forests we
have, and there is hope. And I can tell you an example of that.
A lot of people do not realize that, last year, in the last
2 years, we lost 20 percent of the most iconic trees on the
plant--the giant sequoias that grow only in a few groves in
California. Forest fires destroyed 20 percent, 19 percent of
those trees in 2 years. These are some of the most fire-
resilient species on the planet.
So, you had the intersection of two bad things. You had
mismanagement of the forest and a warming, drying climate that
intersected, and it is the perfect storm to destroy a tree that
should never be destroyed by fire. These trees are over 3,000
years old. Up until the 21st century, those groves in
California averaged 31 fires per century. We created the Forest
Service and started putting them out. In the last century, they
averaged three fires. Now, Nature is correcting that.
And I was out there last week, a bipartisan trip. We are
going to have a bipartisan bill on saving the sequoias. Whole
groves of sequoia trees, nothing but charred remains on the
side of the hill--that should never happen. We should be
ashamed that we let this happen.
We cannot be exporting bad forest management policies to
the rest of the world. We know how to do it right. We need to
work together to get our house in order here and to export that
technology and that help to other parts of the world. Because,
as you mentioned, there is no place like the Amazon that has as
many trees and as much opportunity to sequester and store
carbon and give us clean oxygen to breathe.
But we cannot have a policy that says do not ever touch the
forest, because that is a management policy, or put the fires
out. That is what we did in the United States, and we are
paying a terrible price for that right now.
So, I would really embrace the opportunity to work
together; to follow the scientific research that we have; to
work on policy that actually does good things; that is going
to, at the end of the day, mean there are more trees growing on
the planet, more carbon being sequestered, and more oxygen
being released.
One last fact. Transportation worldwide makes up about a
quarter of greenhouse gas emissions. Buildings make up close to
half of it. We have been focusing way too much on
transportation, when we could focus on sustainable buildings,
which wood could play a very important part of that, if we
truly wanted to address the global carbon issue.
Again, I have a friend that said that, when it comes to the
environment, trees are the answer; now what is your question?
And we need to follow that because the science backs that up.
Again, thank you for having the hearing. Thank you for--I
kind of took advantage of the Leader using more time and used a
little bit more myself. So, thank you, Leader Hoyer.
Chairman Meeks. It is called ``the magic minute.''
[Laughter.]
Mr. Westerman. Yes. Very much so.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Westerman follows:]
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Chairman Meeks. I want to thank both of you for your very
passionate and eloquent testimony. And it really is an absolute
honor and a privilege to have both of you here at our
committee. Again, thank you for taking the time.
And I will now excuse you, gentlemen.
We will now turn to panel two.
And as Mr. Chabot had said earlier, many of us will have to
leave to go to the Conference Committee, and I believe Mr.
Connolly will take over.
I think, Mr. Connolly, I will give you the honor of
introducing our guests.
Mr. Connolly. Sorry for that delay. We had some niceties of
exchange here.
So our second panel we have two witnesses, Dr. Sanjayan--am
I pronouncing that, Dr. Sanjayan, correctly? All right.
Dr. Sanjayan is a conservation scientist and CEO of
Conservation International, a global nonprofit dedicated to
securing the critical benefits that nature provides to
humanity. He co-led the launch of Conservation International's
award-winning ``Nature is Speaking'' brand campaign, and he
oversaw a successful $1.1 billion capital-raising operation.
His scientific work has been published in peer-reviewed
journals Science, Nature, and Conservation Biology. He's hosted
and co-hosted a range of documentaries for outlets including
PBS, BBC, and Discovery Channel.
Ms. Hindou Ibrahim is an environmental activist and a
member of Chad's--no. She's online. Sorry. And a--pastoralist
M'Bororo people. She began advocating for indigenous rights and
environmental protection at age 16 and founded the Association
for the Indigenous Women and Peoples of Chad--AFPAT.
She also serves as the U.N. Sustainable Development Goal
advocate. She's vice chair of the Global Forest Coalition,
Conservation International board member and Earthshot Prize
council member.
Ms. Romina Bandura is an economic and senior fellow with
the Project of Prosperity and Development and the Project on
U.S. Leadership at the--in development at the Center for
Strategic and International Studies.
Her current research focuses on the future of work in
developing countries and the United States economic engagement
in the developing world. She previously worked as a senior
consultant at the Economist Intelligence Unit and an economist
at the International Labor Organization.
Without objection, all the witnesses' prepared--full
prepared testimony will be part of the full record and I'll now
recognize the witnesses for a 5-minute summary of their
testimony, beginning with you, Dr. Sanjayan.
Welcome.
STATEMENT OF DR. M. SANJAYAN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL
Dr. Sanjayan. Good morning Chairman, Ranking Member,
members the committee, Representative Connolly.
My name is Dr. M. Sanjayan. I'm the CEO of Conservation
International, a nonprofit supporting conservation in over 50
countries. My vice chairman, Mr. Harrison Ford, and board
member, Mr. Idris Elba, regret not being here today to support
this testimony because of work.
Thank you for inviting me to share my perspective on the
forest conservation and fight against climate change, and how
AMAZON21 can transform our efforts.
Conservation International's mission is to protect nature
that is most important to people, and everything we do is aimed
at ensuring that people and nature thrive together. Since 1987,
we have brought together businesses, governments, and
communities to protect and restore nature, and everywhere we
work our model helps communities create self-sustaining
conservation-based economies.
The AMAZON21 Act would substantially strengthen these
efforts. At its core, this legislation incentivizes developing
nations to protect and restore nature.
It rewards action that maintains the health of some of our
most critical, most iconic ecosystems, while unlocking
financial opportunities for local communities and landowners
that commit to conservation.
This bill is good for wildlife. It's good for ecosystems.
It's good for the climate. But it's also in equal measure good
for local communities and indigenous peoples, good for
economies and security, not only food security and climate
security but also national security.
In short, it's good for us. The science on this is clear.
Nature is the building block required for a stable future for
all of humanity. And, yet, nature is under assault virtually
everywhere with little to no investment to reverse or halt this
trend.
Today, only 3 percent of all available global climate
finance is dedicated to protecting nature. There is a massive
gap between what we need and what we have, and yet the demand
for private sector nature-based investments and opportunities
is sky high.
It's, clearly, there. Right now, there are literally
billions of dollars in private capital for nature-based
investments sidelined by uncertainty and sidelined by risk.
In just the last two or 3 years, for example, we have seen
private sector interest in carbon markets soaring and it could
easily exceed $50 billion before the end of this decade.
Through carbon markets, companies and individuals can
invest in the protection of nature, thus shortening the time
line to achieve our climate goals. By enabling private-public
partnerships, this bill would allow new investments to reach
places where policy and markets do not.
We're not tilling new soil here. In 1984, Congress
established the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation to work
with both the public and private sectors to protect nature, and
since then, the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation has
become the largest private conservation grant maker in the
United States.
The AMAZON21 Act brings this concept of public-private
partnerships to a global stage. More than half the world's GDP
already depends, in some ways, on the benefits provided by
nature.
The loss of these benefits would be catastrophic and would
amount to a loss of $2.7 trillion dollars. As always, the
poorest countries, the neediest rural communities, would be the
hardest hit, accelerating resource depletion, famines, climate-
fueled migration--a recipe as, we all know, for global
instability.
AMAZON21 would dramatically and cost effectively stave off
these effects. In the places where I have spent my formative
years--South Asia, West and East Africa, California, and
Montana--I have seen firsthand how climate change has made life
harder for everyone and virtually impossible for some.
This legislation would help secure the nature that people
need to survive and it would maintain our country's global
leadership and rich conservation legacy. In the United States,
our most beloved landscapes and iconic wildlife remain today
because of our long history of bipartisan conservation.
The entire team and board of directors at Conservation
International thank Majority Leader Hoyer for his leadership in
crafting AMAZON21, and this committee and all of you for
holding this important hearing.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Sanjayan follows:]
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Mr. Connolly. Thank you. You had 5 seconds to go. Thank you
very much.
Before I call on Ms. Ibrahim, I do want to acknowledge from
the chair our distinguished majority leader and his leadership
on this issue, and, Mr. Hoyer, thank you so much for being here
and for showing us the way.
Steny Hoyer has always been a leader in this area and has
been an inspiration and a model for so many of us here in
Congress. So thank you. Your leadership is going to make a big
difference.
Ms. Ibrahim, you are now recognized for your 5 minutes of
testimony. Welcome.
STATEMENT OF HINDOU OUMAROU IBRAHIM, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION FOR
INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND PEOPLES OF CHAD (AFPAT)
Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you, Chair. My name is Hindou Oumarou
Ibrahim. I am the president of the Association for Indigenous
Women and Peoples of Chad.
I want to thank Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member McCaul and
the members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee for the
opportunity to discuss the importance of the U.S. leadership in
nature conservation and investing in natural climate solutions.
I am pleased to share my perspective as an indigenous
person on these critical needs for investments in conservation
worldwide, including through the AMAZON21 Act, thanks to
Congressman Hoyer for his leadership on climate and his
advocacy for indigenous peoples.
I am joining you today from Abidjan, where I am speaking at
a convention to combat decertification, a crisis exacerbated by
climate change and contributing to the mass extinction of
biodiversity as well as trapping the whole continent in
poverty.
I speak to you today as a conservationist and as a
community leader who implement a concrete project and help my
community. I was born in a M'Bororo pastoralist community. For
centuries we have been practicing the seasonal herding of
livestock to fresh grazing ground in the Sahel region,
following the rhythm of the season.
We protect our environment because our survival depends on
it. Living in harmony with nature is a common principle shared
by all indigenous communities in Africa, in the Amazon, in the
Arctic, the Pacific Islands and everywhere.
Although today we represent 5 percent of the global
population, indigenous peoples effectively manage more than a
quarter of the land and we help to protect 80 percent of the
planet biodiversity and help the Earth's ecosystem, which are
vital to the Earth's ability to absorb and store CO2.
Tropical forests in the Congo, Amazon Basin serve as the
lungs of our planet, yet, are under increasing climate pressure
from extreme deforestation caused by the agro industry.
This week, a diverse group of Amazon Brazilians' indigenous
organizations signed a letter urging Congress to support
AMAZON21, ensuring transparency and strength for financing in
partnership with indigenous peoples.
Land where indigenous peoples have forests rights,
including government protection of those rights, have better
conservation practices and lower incidence of deforestation and
carbon emission than surrounding areas.
Today, we all are facing the consequences of the climate
change in America and everywhere on the corner of the world. We
need you as leadership to partner with indigenous peoples and
local communities to stop illegal logging, mining, poaching,
and trafficking driven by criminal networks. Investing in
nature as a solution can help countries tackling multiple
challenges like food and water security, human health, and
climate change.
In closing, Mr. President, indigenous peoples can help to
design these solutions through our traditional knowledge to
help fighting drought and climate change. To implement this
investment in nature, we need economic and technical support in
recognition of our rights.
Policy like AMAZON21 are crucial for enabling developing
countries and indigenous communities to sustain ecosystem,
secure livelihoods, and mitigate climate change.
There is no pathway to a safe climate which does not
involve a natural climate solution. Investment like those
called for in AMAZON21 are essential for sustainable futures.
I would like to thank Patrick Riley from U.S. delegation at
the convention in the embassy of U.S. in Abidjan for kindly
hosting me today, and the Chairman Meeks and your team, I
guess, that you already visited here, and the staff at the
embassy is sending you really great regards.
Thank you so much again, Chair, for the opportunity.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Ibrahim follows:]
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Mr. Connolly. Thank you so much. And, again, great timing.
Ms. Bandura, you're now recognized for your 5 minutes of
testimony. Welcome.
STATEMENT OF ROMINA BANDURA, SENIOR FELLOW, PROJECT ON
PROSPERITY AND DEVELOPMENT, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND
INTERNATIONAL STUDIES
Ms. Bandura. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Meeks and
Ranking Member McCaul, Representative Connolly, and members of
the committee. It's really an honor to be here today and I
welcome this important hearing.
I'm a development professional. I'm not a conservational
scientist or a climate scientist. So my remarks today will
focus on the economic security and governance drivers of
deforestation, particularly with regards to the Amazon, the
largest rainforest in the world.
At CSIS, we did a report on this with country case studies.
So I'll give you some copies later. But just to provide a
little bit of context of the magnitude of the challenge.
The Amazon is about the size of the continental United
States. It spans eight countries and has a population of about
35 million people.
The first point I want to make is that deforestation in the
Amazon is a complex issue that is linked to structural
challenges in these countries. It is not solely an
environmental problem.
Deforestation is a symptom of economic and governance
vulnerabilities, including high levels of poverty, lack of
economic opportunities. There's overall weak presence--State
presence. Property rights are not well defined. There's land
tenure issues, weak enforcement of laws. There are great laws
in the books. Unfortunately, you know, State capacity is not
there. And also inadequate infrastructure planning.
We need to include these issues at the table. Otherwise,
we'll, literally, not be seeing the forest for the trees.
The second point I want to raise is that national and
subnational governments of the Amazon are primarily responsible
for preserving the environment and achieving sustainable
development.
These are middle income countries, sovereign nations, and
own the rainforest. So the United States and the international
community need to be mindful on how they engage in the region.
My third point is that the United States can and should
play a constructive role in the Amazon Basin in partnership
with governance--governments, local stakeholders, and other
donors, supporting not only environmental preservation but good
governance, economic growth, and security.
What are some ways to support the Amazon countries? First,
the U.S. Government needs to take a more holistic approach in
its programming on deforestation, linking assistance on
environmental issues to governance, economic development, and
security issues.
This requires coordination among our U.S. bilateral
agencies and programs focused on improving the capacity of
local governments.
Second, when implementing the AMAZON21 bill or any U.S.
programs, there should be buy-in from national and subnational
governments. Sometimes these different levels of governments do
not talk to each other, and national plans and policies can
become disconnected or at odds with some national plans, which
leads to poor project choices and wasted resources.
There has to be agreement and coordination among the
different levels of government, especially with new actors
investing in the region, for example, China, and private
investors.
These governance and coordination issues are important and
should figure in our programming. Otherwise, what the United
States will provide with one hand others will take with the
other.
Third, we need to work with other donors and actors in the
region so that there is less fragmentation among programs and
there's greater impact in conserving forests.
As an example, Norway has, and I think it was mentioned
before, has set up an Amazon fund already. There are many NGO's
and indigenous communities on the ground with ample knowledge
on forest conservation and we also need to tap into private
companies to create sustainable economic opportunities.
And fourth, the United States can continue providing
training and technological solutions to better survey the
forest and professionalize the law enforcement agencies on the
ground.
Advanced technology can be used to supply--for supply
trace--supply chain traceability and can improve local
governments' ability to enforce laws and address deforestation.
Finally, I brought an example of what, you know, United
States can do. This is acai, which is a super berry that is
grown in the Amazon.
It can be grown very sustainably and it's OPIC, now DFC
funded an American entrepreneur for a processing plant and this
is sold--you can go to Giant or if you want the supersized
volume you can go to Costco and they are selling acai there.
So this is just one example of, you know, sustainable
development.
So, to conclude, we are currently at a crossroads in
responding to deforestation in the Amazon and this requires a
multi-sector and multi-stakeholder approach.
I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today.
Thank you for your time.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Bandura follows:]
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Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Bandura, and thank you for
bringing the product. That makes everything even more real.
Thank you.
We're not going to go into questioning by members and the
chair is happy to recognize his friend and the great chair of
the Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the Environment and Cyber,
the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Keating.
Mr. Keating?
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as someone that
was at COP26 myself, I do recognize the urgency. You know, this
is--we're not dealing with this in a current sense.
We should have been dealing with this decades and decades
ago, and I do realize the importance of involving the
indigenous community in the decisionmaking, not just
informationally but in the decisionmaking that is going
forward.
But I want to touch, briefly, because I think there's a
moment of urgencies that is going to be underscored very
shortly. Leader Hoyer mentioned the security issues that are
attendant to deforestation, and deforestation poses grave
global and domestic security risks as well.
The U.S. military and intelligence officials have
repeatedly warned that deforestation and climate change lead to
food and water shortages, ecological degradation, extreme
weather patterns, conditions that enable mass population
displacement, terrorist activity and other forms of violence
and conflicts between nations. Terrorist groups such as Boko
Haram, al-Shabaab, and ISIS are known to exploit food
insecurity to further their ambitions.
And we're now in another crisis because of what I mentioned
briefly before, the war in Ukraine. This fall, the world will
see, I think, the devastating impacts, something that will far
eclipse even the tragic casualties we're seeing on the
battlefield with the people that are going to be starving in
this world, particularly people in North Africa.
We will also see certain countries like Ethiopia that have
been part of a managed program, agricultural and preservation
in these issues, that will be in a better position to survive
it.
So my point is this, that moving forward with this bill now
is not only timely, it's urgent, and I think it's a perfect
complement to the idea of managing our environment for our
benefit.
As we deal with these issues, the U.S. has to be in a
leadership role. It's great that the U.K. and Norway and other
countries are, but we have found time and time again, on these
major issues the U.S. must lead.
So this legislation is a terrific opportunity to lead in
that front, and I wanted to talk--ask you the question how
working with these other management techniques that is so
necessary--I mean, we have seen before as fertilizer is scarce,
there'll be more agricultural initiatives, where they're
deforesting areas, using that ash to fertilize, which is only
good for a year or two. Then they move forward and deforest a
whole other area.
So we have to manage these things. This piece of
legislation, AMAZON21, going forward, would complement so many
other initiatives around the world.
So could you comment on the potential for this moving
forward to really complement and to push forward so many other
management techniques that we need to go with this for other
countries.
And as you mentioned, something else I saw at COP26
enormous potential of private investment that exists. So I
really think this is critical legislation that couldn't come at
a more important time.
So if you could comment on how this would increase that
kind of partnership and among countries and on the private side
as well?
Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Representative Keating.
I think you're completely right. The world is really
looking for American leadership on this issue. Part of that is
because American companies are looking for a signal--a signal
around security to invest in nature.
The one thing I know for sure is the nature tomorrow will
be more valuable than it is today and that is an absolute
truism, and the signals that we give here with AMAZON21 will
enable companies to invest in nature and invest in carbon with
more certainty in these countries that are rich in carbon and
poor in other resources.
I can also tell you that you're absolutely right that--you
know, in all my life--I mean, my father worked in the timber
industry at the very sort of--when I was a child in West
Africa. I've never seen a country that has deforested itself
emerge as a stable successful democracy in any easy way.
So what we are setting up here is a foundational building
block that will have ripple effects into the economies of these
countries, into preventing loss of water, loss of habitat,
livelihoods.
Deforestation is difficult. People do it when they're
really forced to do it, and all we're trying to do with this
act is give them that incentive and opportunity to protect and
restore forests at scale like they're doing in Kenya, like
they're doing in Ethiopia, like they're doing in Colombia and
there's several countries--Costa Rica is great, another great
example--and thus help that move toward a more sustainable
economy and a more stable democracy.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Sanjayan, and the gentleman's
time has expired. But I do want to give an opportunity, Mr.
Keating, for the other two witnesses to respond, if you desire.
Ms. Bandura?
Ms. Bandura. Yes, I agree and the issue of food security is
going----
Mr. Connolly. If you could just bring that closer to you.
Ms. Bandura. Sorry.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
Ms. Bandura. The issue of food security is also an
important aspect in the Amazon because if we continue at this
pace, you know, the water--the rainfall patterns will change
and will affect, you know, agriculture, not only in that region
but in South America and other parts of the world.
So it's an important issue. In terms of insecurity, in the
Amazon, there are also powerful groups--illegal groups--that
affects the security of people on the ground and the indigenous
communities as well.
So my point on security is that also we need presence of,
you know, law enforcement and we need good governance because
many of the subnational levels of government do not have the
capability to really, you know, monitor and enforce the law. So
they also need our help. So that's all I'm going to say.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
Ms. Ibrahim, any comments?
Ms. Ibrahim. Yes, thank you very much for the questions.
That's completely right. What is happening in my region in
Sahel and also in all the subregions of the Congo Basin
communities are fighting just to get access to the natural
resources, and that creates a big conflict between them where
they kill each other.
And it is also the harm of all the terrorist groups who
take opportunities because people has become more poor and then
they come over the land and we really live in this area. So
having these financed can help the community to settle.
It's taught them to move from one community to another one
like being internal migrant or international migrant because it
can help them to create a life and livelihood and restore the
environment.
And investment--of course, having the private sector is
very important. But we need the leadership of a country like
U.S. We need public funding who can come to the communities and
who can give talks to the young peoples.
You know, in my communities we live that every day. We know
that the younger generation are always going to look for their
futures outside and they do not have any other choice because
they did not went to school--to go to the offices. They just
depend from the rainfall and when there is no forest--forest
products, there is not enough rain to do the agriculture.
Either they have to migrate or they have to join the terrorist
groups. These kinds of initiatives can help them to
Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Pennsylvania, Mr. Perry, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
Welcome.
Mr. Perry. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I'm
going to probably spend most of my time on a statement here
more than a question and some probably unwelcome and unpleasant
realities.
We're probably going to hear over and over again today
about the threat of deforestation and I think it's real how
it's critical to the environment to protect the forest and I
agree with that.
But, apparently, the Washington elite news or, correction,
elites' answer appears to be throwing billions of U.S. taxpayer
dollars into the wind in corrupt foreign places in an effort to
make themselves feel better. I do not know if we're going to do
anything that's better.
Unfortunately, time after time, anti-fossil fuel activist
types use the weight of the government to pick winners and
losers without any consideration or little consideration of the
unintended and unwanted consequences of their actions.
The American people are told by the global elites that they
must stop using fossil fuels or significantly curb their
consumption.
Yet, the environmentalists conveniently leave out the
ecological devastation that will result from the pursuit of the
so-called clean energy alternatives. Just because it's not
happening in your town or maybe in your country does not mean
it's not happening somewhere and that you're supporting it.
For example, the Congo Basin is home to the second largest
rainforest in the world and 60 percent of this forest lies in
the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
The DRC is also the world's leading source of mined cobalt,
which is a critical mineral necessary for lithium ion batteries
used in EVs, or electric vehicles, and battery storage
projects, supplying approximately 70 percent--70 percent of the
world's mined cobalt all coming from one place.
As a result, the Chinese, with the assistance of the
president's son, Hunter, are employing child labor to strip the
country of its cobalt reserves with little--probably no concern
about the safety of the children since they do the mining, the
environmental impacts of the process, or what trees or forests
need to be mowed down to effectively mine the area and move the
product to the green end user in the West.
It's not very green there. It's not green in the DRC. It's
no coincidence that in 2017 the DRC saw more forest loss than
any other country outside of Brazil. I do not see anybody
crying for a reduction in the mining in the Congo for this at
the same time.
And this driver of rapid deforestation is only going to
grow in intensity as the misguided push away from fossil fuels
before its time should be continues.
According to the International Agency--correction, Energy
Agency's report on the role of critical minerals in clean
energy transitions--and so this is the International Energy
Agency.
This isn't Congressman Perry telling you this. By 2040,
cobalt demand could be anything from six to 30 times higher
than today's level--we already talked about how much comes from
the DRC--while this massive increase in the extraction of
cobalt to feed the net-zero lie threatens the rainforest in the
Congo Basin while enriching the Chinese and the First Family.
It is by no means the only massive spike in extractive
activities expected as a result of this misguided net-zero
push. Again, quoting the EIA--correction, IEA's report on the
role of critical minerals, solarvoltaic plants, PV plants, wind
farms, and electric vehicles generally require more minerals to
build than their fossil-fuel based counterparts.
A typical electric car requires six times the mineral
inputs of a conventional car and an onshore wind plant requires
nine times more mineral resources than a gas-fired plant.
Since 2010, the average amount of minerals needed for a new
unit of power generation capacity has increased by 50 percent
as the share of renewables in new investment has risen. We do
not talk about that at all.
By 2040--not that far away--the IEA expects lithium demands
to increase by 4,200 percent, graphite demand to increase by
2,500 percent, nickel demand to increase by 1,900 percent, and
as they're called rare earth mineral demand--they're not rare,
they're critical. They're not rare--to increase by 700 percent.
All of these minerals have come to--correction, have come
from somewhere and due to the keep it in the ground mentality
of the Biden Administration it'll come from overseas where you
cannot see it, where they disregard the environment, and that's
the norm.
This notable destruction of forests, natural habitats, et
cetera, does not include the massive displacement that will
come as a result of land use requirements to site wind and
solar farms, which itself require massive amounts of
deforestation.
Added together, it's pretty clear the term clean energy
transition is nothing more than a Soviet style propaganda and
completely untrue but serves the party's aims.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I'd yield.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the
gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Levin, for his 5 minutes of
questioning.
Mr. Levin. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to
thank Chair Meeks for convening this important hearing on
deforestation and forest conservation, which, I think, proves
how seriously our committee is taking, or most of us are
taking, the climate change threat and the danger it poses to
our whole world.
I want to use my first question to position the role of
forests and climate change within a broader debate about how we
engage with the rest of the world.
As the witness testimoneys have identified, only by
recognizing that forest conservation is deeply intertwined with
U.S. foreign trade and economic policies can we begin to roll
back the tremendous harm done to this planet by, for example,
the devastation of the Brazilian Amazon and Cerrado and the
Indonesian tropics.
Yet, too often, our collective stated commitment to putting
people and the planet in the center of foreign policy is, in
fact, trumped by other geopolitical or economic interests.
Ms. Ibrahim, can you share your experience that may
illustrate the importance of engaging with local groups, civil
society organizations, and indigenous communities in developing
U.S. climate change policy and how might the laudable goal of
reducing carbon emissions through terrestrial carbon
sequestration be undermined if local populations aren't
properly brought in to such an undertaking?
Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you very much, Congressman Andy Levin.
So involving indigenous communities and local communities
is the best way to protect our remaining forests and to restore
what we lost already. So why I'm saying that? We cannot plant
the trees in the offices and we cannot also have the trees
growing over a night.
So it is a process, and that's why for indigenous peoples,
the local communities, the forest is a way of living. It is the
law that you are giving to these kind of trees.
It is not only like one kind of trees that we have to
replant or protect. It is the ecosystem and this diversity that
we wanted to have, the forest where we can have the insects,
the birds, the animals who can cope and live in harmony with
the peoples, but how we can do work in those communities.
So the U.S. policies need to engage with the indigenous
peoples, local communities, from the design of those policies
because, at the end, we are the ones who are going to implement
it.
So if we design it, we know exactly which kind of land
rights that we want to have in which place, how we can avoid
the conflict over the land and over the access to the natural
resources, how long time we can have profit from these forests
that are giving us food, medicine, and also shelters, and how
we can use these forests to be sustained for the next
generations.
So that's why we have our indigenous peoples' traditional
knowledge over centuries who know how to manage and how to use
it.
So we can put those traditional knowledge with the lock
that we have on the science, technology, all together can be
combined to help those policies move forwards.
Mr. Levin. Wonderful.
Ms. Ibrahim. I think so.
Mr. Levin. Thank you.
Ms. Ibrahim. We need to have it across all the regions.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Levin. Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that very much.
It's fantastic. I want to ask another question of Dr. Sanjayan.
In your testimony, you make a compelling case for investing
in nature conservation and for the considerable returns that
could be generated in terms of preventing more instability and
sources of conflict in the future.
What are the barriers the private sector is facing in
actually making these investments and what role can Congress
play in unlocking them?
Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Congressman. The biggest barrier
that I see right now is the barrier of supply. So we know the
forests are there. We know communities are eager to engage. But
the policies and the financial frameworks are not necessarily
available for them to participate in the market.
This is where USAID and other institutions can
significantly help countries, communities, States, provinces,
develop the tools and technologies from a policy perspective, a
science perspective, and also a financial perspective to
actually engage the market at scale.
I think that is, literally, the No. 1 stumbling block and
that's where U.S. leadership and the signal that it would
create would instantly allow that flow to happen where the
private sector can invest in forest conservation for the
benefit of people and nature and, ultimately, our climate as
well.
Mr. Levin. Thank you so much.
Mr. Chairman, my time is about to expire. I have several
more questions but I can keep going. But I'm happy to submit
them and hope the witnesses might answer them in writing if
that's better.
Mr. Connolly. We appreciate that. Thank you so much for
being with us today, Mr. Levin.
Mr. Levin. Thank you.
Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the distinguished
gentlelady from North Carolina, Ms. Manning, for her 5 minutes
of questioning. Welcome.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Connolly, and thank you,
Chairman Meeks, for holding this very important hearing, and
I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here to share your
expertise with us today.
Ms. Bandura, we have seen growing concerns about the risks
of triggering biosphere tipping points across a range of
ecosystems around the world and the potential domino effects.
Could you explain more about this concept and what you see
as being the tipping point for forests like the Amazon
experiencing deforestation and droughts?
Ms. Bandura. Well, there are--sorry. As I mentioned, I'm
not a climate scientist. But, basically, if we continue, you
know, deforesting at the rate that we are there's going to be
a--become a point where the--you know, the rainforest will not
be able to function as a carbon sink and will emit more carbon
into the atmosphere, and this also will change, you know, the
rainfall patterns of the region.
So I am not sure--you know, I cannot really address other
rainforests or, you know, what are the--maybe Sanjayan can--he
is a conservationalist. But this will have also impacts in, you
know, our economic activities. So it's not just about, you
know, environmental activity so but economic impacts.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. Dr. Sanjayan, do you--would you
like to add something?
Dr. Sanjayan. Sure, very briefly. So it turns out that the
Amazon, like, major rainforests generate their own rainfall and
what that means it's a self-sustaining system, kind of like a
glass bottle and you have a--like an aquarium, and as you get
beyond a certain tipping point, its ability to regenerate and
create that rainfall is fundamentally altered.
That's something we have only recently learned. And two
scientists, Dr. Tom Lovejoy, who recently passed away and a big
champion for the Amazon, really made the public aware of this
tipping point. And the other is Dr. Johan Rockstrom from the
Potsdam Institute for Climate Science, who really established
these ideas of the planetary tipping point.
Now, if you ask me for a number, I would say it's probably
around 20 to 25 percent. Once we destroy about 20 to 25 percent
of a large rainforest like the Amazon, its ability to
regenerate itself becomes difficult.
If you live in Montana then you know once a forest
disappears and it's a grassland, to put it back into a forest
it's very, very difficult, if not nearly impossible.
Ms. Manning. So I assume that what we're talking about is
if we do not act--this adds a sense of urgency to our actions
in this regard because if we hit that tipping point we cannot
fix the problem that's been solved--that's been created.
Dr. Sanjayan. That's absolutely right.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. Like my colleagues, I have deep
concerns about climate change, about deforestation, for exactly
the reasons that you have just described here--about the impact
on climate change, the impact that climate change is having,
rather, on the availability of food production, clean water, in
a variety of countries that can least afford the stresses on
their populations and one result, as we have discussed, is
migration away from those areas that put stresses on other
countries.
So I am supportive of the all of the above measures that we
can take to address climate change, including the prevention of
further deforestation, and AMAZON21, certainly, appears to be
an important step, even perhaps a leap, in the right direction
and this is something of huge importance.
But I would like to ask about how we prevent abuse,
misdirection, corruption, by either the governments or the
intended recipients of the funding that could come through
AMAZON21.
And you're shaking your head, Ms. Bandura, so perhaps I'm
in your area and you'd like to comment on this.
Ms. Bandura. Yes, and this is an important issue, and as I
referred at the beginning, you know, this is not only about,
you know, environmental programming but governance and really
fostering capacity for local governments and groups to really
look at how the--you know, the money and we have to really look
at how the money is being spent.
A lot of the deforestation that is happening, as I
mentioned at the beginning, there are very good laws to
preserve areas and there are indigenous groups that, you know,
live in these preserved areas.
But there are other groups that are coming in and there's--
you know, there's no good law enforcement mechanism to really
prevent these encroachments.
The other issue is land tenure. There's, you know,
corruption in there as well. So who gets the access--accessing
the land in the rain forest. And, of course, you know, a lot of
the people that are living in these regions also have not
meaningful economic opportunities and are sometimes exploited
by powerful groups that, obviously, are, you know, flourishing
on corrupt activities and illegal activities.
So I do not think it's only a role for USAID but it's
working also with local law enforcement agencies and, you know,
agencies such as Interpol. Because it's not just about, you
know, the trees. There are a lot of other components happening
in the rain forest, and I'll stop at that.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. My time has expired. I would love
to pursue this further, but I yield back.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Manning.
The chair now recognizes the distinguished representative
from Nevada, Ms. Titus, for her 5 minutes of questioning.
Welcome.
Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask Dr.
Sanjayan about the Mekong Delta, changing locations here for a
little bit. The Mekong Delta--and these are some pretty
impressive statistics--spans over 200 million acres. That's,
roughly, the size of Texas and Arkansas combined.
It spans China, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and
Vietnam, and that the heart of the Delta runs over 3,000 miles
from Tibet to the South China Sea. It accounts for up to 25
percent of fresh water for people in the area and it's second
only to the Amazon in biodiversity, home for about 1,200 unique
freshwater species.
But there's been research at the University of Nevada and
at Utah State on deforestation in Cambodia and how rapidly that
is accelerating. I wonder if you could talk about the impact of
that deforestation on the Mekong and how that's impacting the
whole area.
Did you lose me? I cannot see myself. Am I still there?
Mr. Connolly. I think your frozen colleague is asking what
about--I mean, both Mr. Perry and Ms. Titus have asked us about
other threats in the Mekong Delta in the case of Ms. Titus and
the Democratic Republic of Congo because of the exploitation of
cobalt, among other purposes.
So maybe, Dr. Sanjayan, we might begin with you in terms of
what about the--start with Mekong Delta but these other major
rainforest areas that provide so much in terms of flora, fauna,
drinking water, and serve as important sinks--carbon sinks--for
the planet? Shouldn't we be worried about those, too?
Dr. Sanjayan. Absolutely. So it's a great question, and I
just want to point out one thing that the--this bill has full
transparency built into it in terms of ensuring that the
funding gets to the right people in the right way.
It involves participation of indigenous and local
communities, not just in the full design of projects, and it
has strong transparency requirements.
Now, the Mekong Delta is a place that Conservation
International has worked in for two decades, and I can tell you
that it's extraordinarily carbon rich. It truly is one of these
irreplaceable carbon sinks, if you will.
But the threats to it are many and deforestation is one
threat. The other threat is, of course, water, and the third
one, I would say, would be overfishing. Tonle Sap, for example,
is--you know, produces more fish than all of the United States
freshwater fisheries combined.
So this bill works on one major part. It, clearly is not
there to deal with every threat out there. However, a major
reason for water instability in the Mekong Delta is because of
deforestation and Cambodia, interestingly, is a country poised
to really open up its carbon markets as a way of protecting
forests.
They need those investments and, you know, we are in the
process of designing projects in Cambodia with very specific
forest conservation targets in mind.
So in terms of a place that's important for carbon.
important for people, but also will benefit from this bill,
Cambodia and the Mekong Delta would, clearly, be so-called in
its cross hairs.
Thank you.
Mr. Connolly. I think possibly Ms. Titus might followup
your last point with yes, but often countries'--political
leadership in countries, local and otherwise, are faced with,
yes, long term it's in our economic interest to protect this as
a resource but short term I got to get--you know, my fishing
villages need to make a living.
And so I make short term decisions at long-term costs.
That's the tradeoff, especially in poorer countries, and that's
a dilemma that faces us all.
And I think, Ms. Bandura, you touched on that. I mean, lots
of factors in the Amazon but part of it is endemic poverty that
drives people to seek a source of revenue that can be
sustainable, from their point of view, even if it's at the cost
of the environment.
Dr. Sanjayan. I mean, the one thing I would mention is that
this bill would allow financial flows to happen very quickly
and that's partly because the private sector is eager for
mechanisms like this in order to participate.
So the lag time between, you know, developing a project and
funding actually flowing in these projects would be, you know,
in my estimation, like, 18 months.
So that is a reasonable timeframe. It's not many, many
years later before benefits start flowing. So I think it is a
good mechanism to deal with this issue that you raised, which
is people do need to eat and desperate people are put into
desperate situations where this deforestation becomes their
last means of survival, and we could stop that fast with an act
like this.
Ms. Bandura. Yes, and that's where also, you know, private
sector innovation and know-how comes into play because, as I
mentioned at the beginning, a lot of the, you know, jobs that
are happening in the--you know, in the Amazon are either
informal in nature or, you know, with very little pay, little
protections, hazardous.
Think about a mining in Peru--gold mining in Peru. That
releases mercury in the water, and so we need to really bring
in our--I mean, and that's where United States has the--you
know, the biggest and most innovative private sector.
You know, it allowed this to happen and so that's, you
know, one tool that we--you know, we should leverage to really
provide economic opportunities. We cannot ignore--we cannot
deny economic opportunities to people. That would not be fair
or truthful, you know, on our end. So----
Mr. Connolly. So let me followup on that with you, Ms.
Bandura. Let's just put it this way. The current leadership in
the Brazilian government, led by President Bolsonaro, has not
really developed a reputation for being passionate about
protecting the Amazon and, in fact, arguably, even downright
hostile to efforts to protect the Amazon and resentful of
international concern expressed about the need to protect the
Amazon.
Your observations about the current Brazilian government
and how do we kind of change attitudes there so that got a
supportive receptive government that sees it as in its interest
to try to protect this resource and avoid that tipping point we
were talking about?
Ms. Bandura. Yes, I mean, so----
Mr. Connolly. And if you could bring that closer. Thank
you.
Ms. Bandura. So--I'm sorry about that.
As I mentioned, you know, these are sovereign nations and
we cannot, you know, really force, you know, leaders to change
their minds.
But we have some tools and there--I believe, like, Colombia
is a very good example of what can be done in the Amazon, and
if, you know, Colombia would be--is a partner of the United
States and can also be, you know, leading in the Amazon, there
are initiatives such as the Leticia Pact
That was an initiative that was signed by Bolsonaro. It
needs to be operationalized. And, you know, we have carrots and
sticks. So if we are going to say we're going to implement this
trust fund, provided that, you know, these conditions are met,
that's--you know, that's both a carrot and a stick.
So it's very--it's hard to, you know, persuade but, you
know, we have some tools to do that and, you know, we'll see.
But, you know, we cannot just force countries to adopt things.
And, you know, pressure from, you know, the civil society
and others, private sector, investors in Brazil and outside can
also be one way, and OECD accession.
Brazil wants to become part of the OECD. So that's also a
tool that, you know, we can use to bring them to more, you
know, sustainable standards.
Dr. Sanjayan. I'd just add, Representative Connolly, that,
you know, Ms. Bandura's report that she has here shows that a
large number of Brazilians really do support strong
environmental posturing. Most Brazilians are pro the Amazon.
They want the Amazon to survive. But there is special interests
that win out and that's what's happening now.
There are two ways to work in Brazil even today. One is
that indigenous peoples in Brazil, in particular, have large
territorial access--stewardship, guardianship access,
legislative access to land--and in indigenous lands we have
found great allies in conservation and it's a significant part
of the Amazon.
And the second is that Governors, so one level below the
Federal system--Governors are very willing within the Brazilian
system to move legislation forward and protect nature within
their own State jurisdictions.
Mr. Connolly. You know, you both implicitly, I think, raise
a question not easily resolved about how far does sovereign
control go over what is a global resource.
So is it my absolute right as a sovereign nation if
something is entirely within my sovereign territory to destroy
it, even if it has planetary consequences, and that's an
unanswerable question at this time.
But looking toward the future, it seems to me that one of
our challenges is going to be to create global structures--
international structures--that do protect assets that go beyond
my sovereign territory without, you know, compromising or
surrendering sovereign control.
But on the other hand, there are some--you know, you do not
get to destroy the planet because you decide economically I
want to exploit this unique resource that affects everybody,
not just me, and how do we address that, you know, from an
intellectual point of view.
Do you want to address that, Ms. Bandura?
Ms. Bandura. Well, I do not know if I can solve that issue
but----
Mr. Connolly. I thought you had a solution.
[Laughter.]
Ms. Bandura. It's a complex, you know, challenge. But yes,
you know, you're right. These are, you know, global commons but
there are other actors involved. So, you know, China was
mentioned as well.
There's a lot of deforestation happening--illegal
deforestation--in Russia because of China. So how do we deal
with, you know, that problem. There is also the issue that
Representative Perry mentioned about mining, and so the climate
transition has to take into account our mining resources.
And so I--we need to also engage the private sector and the
supply chains. That's one way that we could also motivate, you
know, countries not to deforest or change, you know, the way
that they source materials and how we sell the materials.
If the private sector is involved in the supply chain
sourcing that would be also one way.
Dr. Sanjayan. Congressman, you know, if you go to New York
City and go to Central Park and think about how expensive that
real eState must be right there, and you see all these
buildings built up right to the edge of Central Park, imagine
someone trying to grab a bit of Central Park and putting up a
skyscraper.
Imagine the hue and cry that you would get in New York and
around the world and, certainly, around this country, and the
reason you'll get that is not because it's not valuable. It's
simply because there is a constituent that will fight for that,
because it is in the enlightened self-interest of every New
Yorker to have Central Park protected.
What AMAZON21 tries to do is to create that enlightened
self-interest among indigenous communities, local communities,
and governments to realize that what they have today is going
to be worth more tomorrow and protecting it is not only in the
interest of the planet but it's an all of--in their self-
interest as well, and it provides a financial mechanism to
incentivize and sustain it over the long run, particularly
through carbon markets.
Mr. Connolly. I agree, and I think that's been the failure
in the past to, you know, find formulas that create economic
incentives to protect, to proactively cherish and enhance the
resource at hand as opposed to, you know, economic
exploitation.
But it's a bit of a--well, it is a very difficult choice
when you're talking about serious poverty and you cannot ask
people to starve to death or forego economic opportunity for
some greater good that they cannot see or experience, and so
there have to be economic incentives built in and that's what
this legislation does.
Apparently, my time is up. Seeing and hearing no further
members, I want to thank our panelists so much for an
enlightening and stimulating conversation. We have got a lot of
work to do but we're delighted that we have a piece of
legislation we can act on and we begin somewhere, and this is
our somewhere.
So thank you so much for being with us today, and this
hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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