[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





        FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 12, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-121

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs




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                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                 
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                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                  GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

BRAD SHERMAN, California             MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking 
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey                  Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
KAREN BASS, California
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
AMI BERA, California
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
DINA TITUS, Nevada
TED LIEU, California
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
COLIN ALLRED, Texas
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey
ANDY KIM, New Jersey
SARA JACOBS, California
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
JIM COSTA, California
JUAN VARGAS, California
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois

                                     CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
                                     STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
                                     JOE WILSON, South Carolina
                                     SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
                                     DARRELL ISSA, California
                                     ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
                                     LEE ZELDIN, New York
                                     ANN WAGNER, Missouri
                                     BRIAN MAST, Florida
                                     BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
                                     KEN BUCK, Colorado
                                     TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
                                     MARK GREEN, Tennessee
                                     ANDY BARR, Kentucky
                                     GREG STEUBE, Florida
                                     DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                                     CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                                     AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
                                     PETER MEIJER, Michigan
                                     NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
                                     RONNY JACKSON, Texas
                                     YOUNG KIM, California
                                     MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida

                    Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director

               Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director  
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

Hoyer, Hon. Steny, A Representative in Congress From the State of 
  Maryland, and Majority Leader, U.S. House of Representatives;..     5
Westerman, Hon. Bruce, A Representative in Congress From the 
  State of Arkansas, and Ranking Member, House Committee on 
  Natural Resources, U.S. House of Representatives...............    12
Sanjayan, Dr. M., Chief Executive Officer, Conservation 
  International..................................................    17
Ibrahim, Hindou Oumarou, President, Association for Indigenous 
  Women and Peoples if Chad (AFPAT)..............................    24
Bandura, Romina, Senior Fellow, Project on Prosperity and 
  Development, Center for Strategic and International Studies....    31

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    50
Hearing Minutes..................................................    52
Hearing Attendance...............................................    53

              STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM CHAIRMAN MEEKS

Statement for the record from Chairman Meeks.....................    54

         STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY

Statement for the record from Representative Connolly............    56

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    58

 
                    FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT 
                         AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE

                         Thursday, May 12, 2022

                          House of Representatives,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:12 a.m., in 
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gregory Meeks 
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
    Chairman Meeks. The Committee on Foreign Affairs will come 
to order. And without objection, the Chair is authorized to 
declare a recess of the Committee at any point, and all Members 
will have 5 days to submit statements, extraneous materials, 
and questions for the record, subject to the length, 
limitation, and the rules.
    To insert something into the record, please have your staff 
email the previously mentioned address, or contact full 
committee staff.
    And as a reminder, for Members participating remotely, 
please keep your video function on at all times, even when 
you're not recognized by the Chair.
    And Members are responsible for muting and unmuting 
themselves. Consistent with House rules, staff will only mute 
Members as appropriate, when they are not under recognition, to 
eliminate background noise.
    I see that we have a quorum. And I now recognize myself for 
opening remarks.
    Exactly 1 year ago today, this Committee held a hearing on 
the threat of climate change to our planet, it's ecosystems and 
our livelihoods. And with Special Envoy John Kerry as our 
guest, we were able to examine the United States' role in 
rallying global support ahead of COP26 in Glasgow.
    In Glasgow the United States was able to keep ambition high 
across a broad spectrum of challenge related to climate change. 
As a result, the world was able to move the ball forward on 
several critical issues, including mitigation, adaptation, and 
finance.
    And I want to thank our witnesses and members of civil 
society for being here today, and for their work surrounding 
the event as well.
    A year seems like a long time ago, and global politics have 
changed. And an unjustified war of aggression by a nuclear 
power has upended the postwar settlement, and rekindled threats 
that were thought left in the last century.
    In 2021, we saw the global economy rebound. And it rebound 
rapidly and unevenly, along with CO2 emissions. And according 
to the International Energy Agency, coal accounted for over 40 
percent of the overall growth in global CO2 emissions in 2021, 
compounded by the high natural gas prices.
    However, the planet does not care for geopolitics or 
prices. On the contrary, our oceans, and forest, and tundra, 
are being reshaped and destroyed at a frightening pace.
    As stewards of this earth, it is our duty to take action 
before the damage we're inflicting becomes irreversible. 
Further generations should not be forced to inherit a global 
crisis of our own making.
    So, today we are taking the time to examine the role of 
force in the fight against climate change and its worst 
effects. We're also going to discuss proposed solutions to slow 
down deforestation, stop illegal logging, and incentivize the 
protection of existing primary forests.
    Forests are essential to the good health of our planet, and 
by extension, our very survival. They are carbon six, holding 
more carbon than is produced annually by humans.
    They're a home. Home to more than three quarters of the 
world's life on land, representing delicate biodiversity. They 
are living spaces for humanity. Over one billion people around 
the world rely on forests for shelter and livelihoods, 
including 60 million indigenous people.
    When these cathedrals for nature are under threat, or 
burned, or turned into agricultural land, these livelihoods are 
under threat. Biodiversity is under threat, and that carbon is 
released into the atmosphere.
    However, when we protect forests, they represent a solution 
to combating, even reversing climate change. And this was the 
goal of the UK government leading in Glasgow, a commitment to 
end deforestation by 2030.
    Even China has signed onto the pledge. So, the United 
States has a role to play in this ambitious endeavor. Indeed, 
the difficulty is in the follow through. The devil is always in 
the details.
    Missing from earlier attempts to halt the drivers of 
deforestation were important factors, including indigenous 
voices who are directly impacted by deforestation. The 
solutions are not one size fits all. Sometimes simply allowing 
and enabling those with the most experience, and those with the 
most to lose, will help, and indeed lead the process.
    I'll stop there. And I'll turn to Mr. McCaul for his 
opening remarks.
    Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank 
Majority Leader Hoyer for being here today, and talking about 
your AMAZON21 Bill, and the Natural Resources Ranking Member 
Westerman, for joining us to discuss your work to address 
deforestation.
    As the Ranking Member of this Committee, I've had the 
opportunity to travel to Africa and Latin America, and I've 
seen the importance of conservation and preserving our 
environmental environment first hand.
    This Committee has an important role to play in conserving 
the environment, and that includes forests, marine sanctuaries, 
and endangered species around the world.
    Since my early days of serving in Congress, I've been a 
member of the International Conservation Caucus, one of the 
largest and most bipartisan caucuses in Congress.
    Conservation is a logical solution in addressing climate 
change. It's been championed by Republicans for over a century, 
all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt.
    He understood that we must protect our environment in 
sustainability, and manage our natural resources before it's 
too late. And I've been proud to have advanced bipartisan 
conservation efforts here in Congress.
    I've supported Congressman Chabot's Tropical Forest and 
Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act, and former 
Chairman Royce's legislation supporting a conservation area in 
southern Africa, the DELTA Act.
    I'm also the original cosponsor of Ranking Member 
Westerman's Trillion Trees Act. The United States has, and will 
continue to play an important role in preventing deforestation.
    And Mr. Chairman, I think we both have the same goal here. 
In the last 5 years alone, over $2 billion has been provided by 
Congress to protect critical landscapes, and empower 
communities to manage their own resources.
    But, there are other tools on the table aside from 
traditional foreign aid. For instance, engaging in debt for 
nature swaps and debt buyback programs, the United States is 
helping preserve land across the globe.
    The U.S. Development Finance Corporation has an important 
role to play as well. To engage the private sector and advance 
new innovations.
    Unfortunately, these efforts are under kept by the maligned 
activities of the People's Republic of China. China accounts 
for nearly a third of the global emissions.
    In fact, the PRC's emissions grew four times more than what 
the U.S. reduced. Today, China emits more than the entire 
developed world.
    CCP General Xi Jinping has said China only intends to 
become carbon neutral by 2060, a full decade after other major 
economies.
    We cannot wait decades hoping the CCP will be a reliable 
partner in addressing climate change. And we must also not be 
afraid to call them out on this.
    Their search for rosewood, an endangered hardwood used in 
traditional Chinese furniture has devastated the forests of 
Madagascar and the Mekong region. We also must stop illegal 
logging.
    We must decrease demand while increasing U.S. options on 
the global market for lumber, agriculture, energy, and critical 
minerals. This will decrease global emissions as the U.S. does 
it more efficiently and cleaner.
    America's a world leader in reducing carbon emissions, 
reducing emissions more than the next seven countries combined. 
And by 2030, over 90 percent of global emissions will come from 
outside the United States.
    I would have to say that America's climate policy should be 
based on America's resources, innovation, and our ability to 
compete to reduce global emissions.
    As I said, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Leader, we all have the 
same goal here. I'm intrigued by the idea of the rain forest. 
I've often said they are the lines of the world. And whatever 
we can do to help preserve the lines of the world, our children 
will be better, and their children will be better off.
    And so with that, I yield back.
    Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Keating. We'll now hear from 
the Chair and the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee that has 
oversight on climate and the environment.
    We'll start with Chairman Keating, we now recognize for 1 
minute.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank the 
Leader, and Congressman Westerman, for being here today.
    There are many issues that the clock has already ticked on. 
And our environment is in a short period of time to deal with 
these.
    This is an important bill, because it takes the 
organization and the power of the State to take action, and to 
prioritize, and have some oversight over, you know, where the 
projects that are working, that will work, that will save 
ourselves, will take place.
    I just want to make one note of the deforestation issue 
that occurs in many areas, because it's going to be affected 
directly by our Ukraine war.
    Forty percent of the fertilizer in this world comes from 
Belarus and Russia. There's an enormous crisis right now on 
fertilizer. This is going to expand.
    And I'm afraid that the slash and burn type tactics that, 
or practices that are used for fertilizing for these countries, 
it's only going to expand. And it will expand in the worst 
places possible.
    So, Mr. Chairman, I would say, this is the time that's even 
crisis on crisis that's occurring with this. And this is why I 
support this bill and would love to see it move forward 
expeditiously.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Meeks. I now recognize Representative Steve Chabot 
for 1 minute.
    Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding 
this hearing today. I want to thank Mr. Hoyer and Mr. Westerman 
for being here.
    And thank the Ranking Member for his kind remarks about the 
legislation which we have cosponsored in the House, along with 
Mr. Sherman, my Democratic colleague, and Mr. Portman and Chair 
Brown over in the Senate.
    We've been pushing this for a long time, it's the Tropical 
Forest and Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act. It 
passed this Committee in a bipartisan basis this past year. And 
I'd like to focus my attention during the course of the hearing 
on that to some degree.
    We do also have, as I'm sure the Chair knows, we've got the 
Conference Committee. So, some of us are going to have to go 
over on that. And so we maybe in and out of here. And I know 
many of the members are participating virtually today.
    But, thank you for holding this hearing. We'd love to get 
that legislation across the finish line and get it passed into 
law if at all possible.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chabot. And today we have 
two panels with very distinguished witnesses.
    And of course on our first panel, we'll start with the very 
distinguished Majority Leader of the House, Steny Hoyer, from 
the great State of Maryland, who has been a long time leader in 
international climate space, and more importantly, a driving 
force behind efforts in this Congress to combat deforestation.
    And this is highlighted by his work on AMAZON21, which we 
will discuss very shortly. And I want to thank him for taking 
time from his schedule to be before our Committee today.
    And I also welcome the Ranking Member of the House 
Committee on Natural Resources, Bruce Westerman, from the great 
State of Arkansas.
    Ranking Member Westerman's work on Natural Resources 
Committee underscores the connection between domestic and 
international policy in this space. And we also appreciate you 
being here, Mr. Ranking Member.
    I now recognize the Majority Leader for his remarks.

  STATEMENT OF HON. STENY HOYER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND, AND
         MAJORITY LEADER, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    Mr. Hoyer. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having 
this hearing, but, more importantly, thank you for your 
statement and your commitment to the objectives that we, as Mr. 
McCaul said, all share. Mr. Chabot has said that as well.
    And I want to thank Mr. Keating for his leadership on this.
    Mr. Cicilline, thank you for being here and your work, and 
Ms. Manning, for being here.
    Let me start, Mr. Chairman, with the fact that this bill 
has a very simple proposition. And that proposition is, if we 
need to buy fertilizer, and we need to buy oil, and we need to 
buy coal, or we need to buy some other source, we expect to 
have that taken out of the land or the mine and given to us, 
and we, in turn, pay for it.
    The problem we have with the forest is the farmer who lives 
next door to the rainforest and who may want another 10 acres 
to farm, so he or she can support their family, their incentive 
is to take that rainforest out of the ground. The problem is 
the resource that we get from that rainforest is oxygen, which 
allows us to live. And we do not want him or her, or the 
government, to take it out of the ground.
    So, in a system that is incentivized by being able to 
support one's self, and therefore, get money in return for 
their product, we take the oxygen, but we do not pay for it. 
So, this is not charity. This is not foreign aid. This is you 
have something of value that you give us to us every day by 
having those trees in the ground, and we want you to keep them 
in the ground. So, the challenge is, how do we incentivize? How 
do we make that farmer able to support himself and his family 
or, frankly, that government be able to support itself, as 
opposed to selling it for wood, housing, whatever?
    And that is what this bill seeks to do. So, Mr. Chairman, I 
thank you for holding this hearing and allowing me to speak on 
an issue that has been close to my heart for a very long time. 
I started talking about this 20 years ago, and I am upset with 
myself that I did not pursue it more vigorously.
    Protecting the rainforest, and by extension, the health of 
our planet. Absorbing vast quantities of greenhouse gases, 
natural carbon sinks--such as rainforests, mangroves, 
peatlands, wetlands--serve, as Mr. McCaul said, the Earth's 
lungs. Without lungs, we die.
    Their well-being is inextricably linked, therefore, to that 
of humanity. In recent decades, however, deforestation has 
destroyed swaths, millions of acres, of these critical lands--
worsening our climate crisis while simultaneously removing one 
of our greatest natural tools to address it.
    It is because of deforestation that Brazil and Indonesia 
are among the world's top 10 emitters of carbon. Indeed, the 
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the world's leading 
climate scientific authority, has found that destruction of 
natural carbon sinks accounts for as much as a quarter of the 
world's total greenhouse gas emissions--rivaling or perhaps 
exceeding China.
    We need to take immediate and decisive action to protect 
these ecosystems. Our global effort to combat the climate 
crisis depends upon it. The future of the planet depends on it. 
The survival and success of humanity, ultimately, depends on 
it.
    At the COP26 conference, to which the chairman referred, in 
Glasgow last year, President Biden joined the leaders of 100 
other nations in an historic pledge to end deforestation by the 
end of the decade.
    Those of us who live in the so-called industrialized world 
use what is in the non-industrialized world--Brazil, of course, 
is both--we use their product. We do not see it and we do not 
pay for it. That is what this bill is about--incentivizing 
monetarily the retaining of these forests which we so badly 
need.
    AMAZON21--by the way, AMAZON is a wonderful acronym that I 
can hardly ever remember--but, just for your interest's sake, 
it says America Mitigating and Achieving Zero Emissions 
Originating from Nature. How is that for a tongue twister? But 
AMAZON itself is pretty easy to remember.
    AMAZON21 would help fulfill America's commitment to that 
global pledge--not just America, but these hundred other 
nations--commitment to that global pledge by establishing a 
trust fund which will enable the State Department to forge 
agreements with developing nations that will protect and 
restore their carbon sinks.
    In the past, the United States has been limited in its 
ability to enter into these bilateral agreements because of the 
short-term nature of funding through the annual appropriations 
process. Solving that longstanding issue, however, requires 
making long-lasting commitments.
    The trust fund created under my legislation--and ``my 
legislation,'' so many hundreds of people have worked on this 
legislation; I just happen to have my name at the front of it; 
I am proud of that, but I am so proud of the work they have 
done--would authorize the financing of conservation or 
restoration of nature-based climate projects abroad that 
protect carbon sinks far into the future.
    Similarly, AMAZON21 emphasizes transparency and results-
based funding model to ensure our partners make good on their 
promise to halt deforestation. We are not going to pay money 
without making sure that, in fact, we are getting what we are 
paying for. Nations that enter into agreements with us through 
this legislation must agree to rigorous external monitoring, 
reporting, and verification of their progress. We know what 
satellites can do. You cannot hide from them.
    Improvements in satellite imagery capabilities have already 
made it impossible for partners to hide any violation. It is 
simple. If countries do not meet the terms of this agreement, 
of the agreement they have, they won't receive funding.
    In a sense, Mr. Chairman, this is about paying producers 
for a resource from which we already benefit, as I have said. 
That resource is the clean air we breathe. These payments are 
an investment in the continued availability of clean air and 
sustainable planet for us, for our children, and for 
generations of Americans to come.
    Moreover, the trust fund is designed to accept gifts from 
foundations, individuals, private companies, and other 
developed nations--this is a team project; this is not a U.S. 
project--to help maximize the impact of America's public 
investment. It is through these types of private-public 
partnerships that we can truly begin to tackle the 
deforestation crisis affecting our planet.
    AMAZON21 will also help developing nations participate in 
carbon markets, an important tool to leverage resources from 
the private sector to fund conservation work--getting credits. 
These agreements would allow us to shore up our relationships 
with developing nations that may otherwise fall under the 
influence, frankly, of authoritarian regimes seeking to exploit 
their resources instead of protecting them.
    It would also create a new technical assistance program in 
USAID to help them build their capacity to develop nature-based 
reforestation projects and scale them up, which I think Mr. 
Westerman's bill certainly would be helped by.
    Mr. Chairman, helping these nations protect their 
rainforests serves our national security interest and the 
attainment of our climate goals, to which both of you referred. 
Members of this committee know full well the long game that 
autocratic countries are playing in the developing world with 
initiatives like China's Belt and Road.
    We need to think creatively about how the United States can 
further our national security objectives while also tackling 
global challenges like deforestation in the process. With 
AMAZON21, America can firmly reestablish itself as a global 
leader when it comes to addressing the climate crisis.
    Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member McCaul, each and every 
person has a stake in this legislation's success. Whether you 
live in Bogota, Colombia; Brandywine, Maryland, in my district; 
Austin, Texas, in your district, we all depend on the clean air 
that Earth's rainforests and other carbon sinks help to 
protect.
    The climate crisis affects us all, and particularly, the 
most vulnerable and those with the fewest resources, as the 
committee will hear shortly. Programs like AMAZON21 are the 
most impactful and cost-effective options, in my view, 
available to us today to address the climate change.
    This model has already proven to work by nations like 
Norway and the United Kingdom, who have similar programs, and 
others that will set up similar trust funds and authorities. 
For a sense of scale, if fully funded, Mr. Chairman and Ranking 
Member McCaul, these programs in this bill would eliminate as 
many as 180 million metric tons of carbon emissions each year--
an amount equal to the total CO2 produced by cars in the United 
States over a 2-year period.
    That is why I was proud to introduce AMAZON21 in the House 
last November and why I am glad to have this opportunity to 
speak about it with the committee today.
    And I want to thank Mr. Westerman. I do not know Mr. 
Westerman very well. We are a big body and we have not worked 
on things together. But I am so enthusiastic and appreciative 
of his participation with his bill, this bill, and other 
efforts that will join together. Mr. Chabot mentioned the 
legislation that he has. If we join these together, we are 
going to make a real impact for generations yet to come.
    I want to thank Mr. Sanjayan of the Conservation 
International for working closely with me on this bill over the 
past few years. You are going to hear from him in a little bit.
    I also want to thank Hindou Ibrahim for sharing her 
insights with the committee today and the perspective of 
indigenous peoples and others most vulnerable to the climate 
crisis.
    I also want to thank Chairman Meeks again for holding 
today's hearing and for cosponsoring this legislation with me, 
as well as Chairman Keating for shepherding AMAZON21 through 
the Europe, Eurasia, Energy, and Environment Subcommittee.
    I also want to thank all of you who are in attendance at 
the hearing today.
    I think this will have a major impact, Mr. Chairman. You 
and I have talked about this. I very much appreciate, as I 
said, your opening statement, which heightens the 
responsibility that we have. And I want to thank you for being 
tolerant with your time as well.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Hoyer follows:]

    ********* COMMITTEE INSERT **********
    Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Majority Leader, for your 
leadership. And as you said, and as the ranking member said, 
this is something that we could all agree and focus on it. That 
is why, with you, I am happy to have Representative Westerman 
join us.
    And, Mr. Westerman, you are now recognized for your 
comments.

STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE WESTERMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
FROM THE STATE OF ARKANSAS, AND RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE 
      ON NATURAL RESOURCES, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member 
McCaul, and to the members of the committee. It is an honor to 
be here with Leader Shoyer, or Hoyer, to talk about--I have 
kind of combined ``Steny'' and ``Hoyer'' at one time to talk 
about something that we should all be able to agree on.
    And I am really excited about the topic of this hearing, 
and I am more excited from the fact that this is the Foreign 
Affairs Committee addressing this, because I think it is 
recognition by Congress that carbon in the atmosphere and 
solving that puzzle is not something we can solve alone.
    The atmosphere is a global entity. It does not have 
borders. And we cannot solve the carbon emissions into the 
atmosphere in the United States. It has to be a global effort 
to solve global carbon.
    And just to get some facts out on the table--and I will 
also tell you, when I was studying forestry at Yale's Graduate 
School, if I had known I was going to 1 day be the only 
forester in Congress, I might have taken more classes and 
studied a little harder.
    [Laughter.]
    But this is a topic that I am passionate about, and it is a 
topic we should all be passionate about. Because before the 
Industrial Revolution, there were 280 parts per million of 
carbon in the atmosphere. Today, there is 419 parts per million 
of carbon in the atmosphere. Without some carbon in the 
atmosphere to create a little bit of a greenhouse effect, we 
would freeze to death. Too much carbon in the atmosphere, we 
generate too much heat. So, there is a delicate balance there.
    We talked about the Trillion Trees Act. We talked about how 
Teddy Roosevelt said trees or forests are the lungs of the 
Earth. They breathe in carbon dioxide and they breathe out 
oxygen.
    If we think about that in a little more detail, trees are 
by far the largest scale, they are the most pragmatic, 
proactive solution that we have to atmosphere carbon. You hear 
all this talk about carbon capture and sequestration. Trees 
have been doing that since there has been trees on the planet. 
They pull the carbon dioxide out of the air. The photosynthesis 
in the internal parts of the leaf, they take that carbon and 
they make hydrocarbon tanks that are stored in the wood, and 
they give H20 and oxygen back out into the atmosphere. We know 
that science.
    But trees also offer a phenomenal benefit, in that wood is 
the ultimate carbon battery. And we talk about battery 
technologies. If you want to talk about something that stores 
carbon, it is wood. The wood in this table at one time was 
atmosphere carbon. Fifty percent of this wood by weight is 
carbon. And as long as this table is here, that carbon will be 
sequestered.
    That is why we have to look at the big picture here. We 
have to look at not only how we keep forests healthy and 
vibrant, but how do we use them--and that is what real 
conservation is--how do we use them to make a difference?
    I want to tell you the story of Arkansas, and this is a 
story that is really across the South. Last year, the State of 
Arkansas grew 44 million tons of wood. The State also harvested 
24 million tons of trees. Those trees got converted into wood. 
They are going into homes and they are storing carbon.
    There is 20 million more tons of wood in the State of 
Arkansas today than there was this time last year because the 
forests were managed healthier. And we can use our trees. We 
can grow them faster and grow more. We can protect special 
areas, and we can create building products that are very 
sustainable.
    That is why a company called Walmart in my home State is 
building their new corporate headquarters out of mass timber. 
Their new corporate headquarter building will contain 17 
million pounds of carbon when it is completed. It will be built 
with trees that were sustainably grown in reforested areas in 
Arkansas, creating local jobs and economic growth.
    That is the great story we have about forestry and trees, 
is that we can have a healthy environment and we can have a 
vibrant economy all at the same time. The impetus behind the 
Trillion Trees Act was a study that said that, if we planted a 
trillion trees across the planet, we could capture two-thirds 
of the carbon emitted by man since the beginning of the 
Industrial Revolution. That is 205 gigatons of carbon that a 
trillion trees would sequester.
    And for any other tree nerds out there, we have about 3 
trillion trees on the planet today. Scientists estimate that at 
one time there were 7 trillion trees. So, we have got a lot of 
headroom as far as we could go in creating more forests.
    Another fact that people do not realize is that, since 
1850, we have emitted over 200 gigatons of carbon through 
deforestation by forest fires. And we are not immune from that 
here in the United States. Last year, we burned 7 million acres 
of forests. The year before, it was 10 million acres--putting 
millions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere that was 
sequestered in the trees.
    And there is another side of that story. When you burn a 
tree, you are releasing carbon dioxide. When you char the tree 
and leave it on the ground and the bugs eat it, you are 
releasing methane, CH4, which is a worst greenhouse gas than 
carbon dioxide. There is nothing we can do to help air, water, 
and wildlife habitat more than having healthy forests.
    And, Leader Hoyer, I would love to work with you on this. 
And I thank you would find, though, a willing group in the 
Republican Party who could work on real forest reform on bills 
like the Trillion Trees Act.
    The bottom line is we have to take care of the forests we 
have, and there is hope. And I can tell you an example of that.
    A lot of people do not realize that, last year, in the last 
2 years, we lost 20 percent of the most iconic trees on the 
plant--the giant sequoias that grow only in a few groves in 
California. Forest fires destroyed 20 percent, 19 percent of 
those trees in 2 years. These are some of the most fire-
resilient species on the planet.
    So, you had the intersection of two bad things. You had 
mismanagement of the forest and a warming, drying climate that 
intersected, and it is the perfect storm to destroy a tree that 
should never be destroyed by fire. These trees are over 3,000 
years old. Up until the 21st century, those groves in 
California averaged 31 fires per century. We created the Forest 
Service and started putting them out. In the last century, they 
averaged three fires. Now, Nature is correcting that.
    And I was out there last week, a bipartisan trip. We are 
going to have a bipartisan bill on saving the sequoias. Whole 
groves of sequoia trees, nothing but charred remains on the 
side of the hill--that should never happen. We should be 
ashamed that we let this happen.
    We cannot be exporting bad forest management policies to 
the rest of the world. We know how to do it right. We need to 
work together to get our house in order here and to export that 
technology and that help to other parts of the world. Because, 
as you mentioned, there is no place like the Amazon that has as 
many trees and as much opportunity to sequester and store 
carbon and give us clean oxygen to breathe.
    But we cannot have a policy that says do not ever touch the 
forest, because that is a management policy, or put the fires 
out. That is what we did in the United States, and we are 
paying a terrible price for that right now.
    So, I would really embrace the opportunity to work 
together; to follow the scientific research that we have; to 
work on policy that actually does good things; that is going 
to, at the end of the day, mean there are more trees growing on 
the planet, more carbon being sequestered, and more oxygen 
being released.
    One last fact. Transportation worldwide makes up about a 
quarter of greenhouse gas emissions. Buildings make up close to 
half of it. We have been focusing way too much on 
transportation, when we could focus on sustainable buildings, 
which wood could play a very important part of that, if we 
truly wanted to address the global carbon issue.
    Again, I have a friend that said that, when it comes to the 
environment, trees are the answer; now what is your question? 
And we need to follow that because the science backs that up.
    Again, thank you for having the hearing. Thank you for--I 
kind of took advantage of the Leader using more time and used a 
little bit more myself. So, thank you, Leader Hoyer.
    Chairman Meeks. It is called ``the magic minute.''
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Westerman. Yes. Very much so.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Westerman follows:]

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    Chairman Meeks. I want to thank both of you for your very 
passionate and eloquent testimony. And it really is an absolute 
honor and a privilege to have both of you here at our 
committee. Again, thank you for taking the time.
    And I will now excuse you, gentlemen.
    We will now turn to panel two.
    And as Mr. Chabot had said earlier, many of us will have to 
leave to go to the Conference Committee, and I believe Mr. 
Connolly will take over.
    I think, Mr. Connolly, I will give you the honor of 
introducing our guests.
    Mr. Connolly. Sorry for that delay. We had some niceties of 
exchange here.
    So our second panel we have two witnesses, Dr. Sanjayan--am 
I pronouncing that, Dr. Sanjayan, correctly? All right.
    Dr. Sanjayan is a conservation scientist and CEO of 
Conservation International, a global nonprofit dedicated to 
securing the critical benefits that nature provides to 
humanity. He co-led the launch of Conservation International's 
award-winning ``Nature is Speaking'' brand campaign, and he 
oversaw a successful $1.1 billion capital-raising operation.
    His scientific work has been published in peer-reviewed 
journals Science, Nature, and Conservation Biology. He's hosted 
and co-hosted a range of documentaries for outlets including 
PBS, BBC, and Discovery Channel.
    Ms. Hindou Ibrahim is an environmental activist and a 
member of Chad's--no. She's online. Sorry. And a--pastoralist 
M'Bororo people. She began advocating for indigenous rights and 
environmental protection at age 16 and founded the Association 
for the Indigenous Women and Peoples of Chad--AFPAT.
    She also serves as the U.N. Sustainable Development Goal 
advocate. She's vice chair of the Global Forest Coalition, 
Conservation International board member and Earthshot Prize 
council member.
    Ms. Romina Bandura is an economic and senior fellow with 
the Project of Prosperity and Development and the Project on 
U.S. Leadership at the--in development at the Center for 
Strategic and International Studies.
    Her current research focuses on the future of work in 
developing countries and the United States economic engagement 
in the developing world. She previously worked as a senior 
consultant at the Economist Intelligence Unit and an economist 
at the International Labor Organization.
    Without objection, all the witnesses' prepared--full 
prepared testimony will be part of the full record and I'll now 
recognize the witnesses for a 5-minute summary of their 
testimony, beginning with you, Dr. Sanjayan.
    Welcome.

    STATEMENT OF DR. M. SANJAYAN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, 
                   CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL

    Dr. Sanjayan. Good morning Chairman, Ranking Member, 
members the committee, Representative Connolly.
    My name is Dr. M. Sanjayan. I'm the CEO of Conservation 
International, a nonprofit supporting conservation in over 50 
countries. My vice chairman, Mr. Harrison Ford, and board 
member, Mr. Idris Elba, regret not being here today to support 
this testimony because of work.
    Thank you for inviting me to share my perspective on the 
forest conservation and fight against climate change, and how 
AMAZON21 can transform our efforts.
    Conservation International's mission is to protect nature 
that is most important to people, and everything we do is aimed 
at ensuring that people and nature thrive together. Since 1987, 
we have brought together businesses, governments, and 
communities to protect and restore nature, and everywhere we 
work our model helps communities create self-sustaining 
conservation-based economies.
    The AMAZON21 Act would substantially strengthen these 
efforts. At its core, this legislation incentivizes developing 
nations to protect and restore nature.
    It rewards action that maintains the health of some of our 
most critical, most iconic ecosystems, while unlocking 
financial opportunities for local communities and landowners 
that commit to conservation.
    This bill is good for wildlife. It's good for ecosystems. 
It's good for the climate. But it's also in equal measure good 
for local communities and indigenous peoples, good for 
economies and security, not only food security and climate 
security but also national security.
    In short, it's good for us. The science on this is clear. 
Nature is the building block required for a stable future for 
all of humanity. And, yet, nature is under assault virtually 
everywhere with little to no investment to reverse or halt this 
trend.
    Today, only 3 percent of all available global climate 
finance is dedicated to protecting nature. There is a massive 
gap between what we need and what we have, and yet the demand 
for private sector nature-based investments and opportunities 
is sky high.
    It's, clearly, there. Right now, there are literally 
billions of dollars in private capital for nature-based 
investments sidelined by uncertainty and sidelined by risk.
    In just the last two or 3 years, for example, we have seen 
private sector interest in carbon markets soaring and it could 
easily exceed $50 billion before the end of this decade.
    Through carbon markets, companies and individuals can 
invest in the protection of nature, thus shortening the time 
line to achieve our climate goals. By enabling private-public 
partnerships, this bill would allow new investments to reach 
places where policy and markets do not.
    We're not tilling new soil here. In 1984, Congress 
established the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation to work 
with both the public and private sectors to protect nature, and 
since then, the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation has 
become the largest private conservation grant maker in the 
United States.
    The AMAZON21 Act brings this concept of public-private 
partnerships to a global stage. More than half the world's GDP 
already depends, in some ways, on the benefits provided by 
nature.
    The loss of these benefits would be catastrophic and would 
amount to a loss of $2.7 trillion dollars. As always, the 
poorest countries, the neediest rural communities, would be the 
hardest hit, accelerating resource depletion, famines, climate-
fueled migration--a recipe as, we all know, for global 
instability.
    AMAZON21 would dramatically and cost effectively stave off 
these effects. In the places where I have spent my formative 
years--South Asia, West and East Africa, California, and 
Montana--I have seen firsthand how climate change has made life 
harder for everyone and virtually impossible for some.
    This legislation would help secure the nature that people 
need to survive and it would maintain our country's global 
leadership and rich conservation legacy. In the United States, 
our most beloved landscapes and iconic wildlife remain today 
because of our long history of bipartisan conservation.
    The entire team and board of directors at Conservation 
International thank Majority Leader Hoyer for his leadership in 
crafting AMAZON21, and this committee and all of you for 
holding this important hearing.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Sanjayan follows:]

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    Mr. Connolly. Thank you. You had 5 seconds to go. Thank you 
very much.
    Before I call on Ms. Ibrahim, I do want to acknowledge from 
the chair our distinguished majority leader and his leadership 
on this issue, and, Mr. Hoyer, thank you so much for being here 
and for showing us the way.
    Steny Hoyer has always been a leader in this area and has 
been an inspiration and a model for so many of us here in 
Congress. So thank you. Your leadership is going to make a big 
difference.
    Ms. Ibrahim, you are now recognized for your 5 minutes of 
testimony. Welcome.

STATEMENT OF HINDOU OUMAROU IBRAHIM, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION FOR 
          INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND PEOPLES OF CHAD (AFPAT)

    Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you, Chair. My name is Hindou Oumarou 
Ibrahim. I am the president of the Association for Indigenous 
Women and Peoples of Chad.
    I want to thank Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member McCaul and 
the members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee for the 
opportunity to discuss the importance of the U.S. leadership in 
nature conservation and investing in natural climate solutions.
    I am pleased to share my perspective as an indigenous 
person on these critical needs for investments in conservation 
worldwide, including through the AMAZON21 Act, thanks to 
Congressman Hoyer for his leadership on climate and his 
advocacy for indigenous peoples.
    I am joining you today from Abidjan, where I am speaking at 
a convention to combat decertification, a crisis exacerbated by 
climate change and contributing to the mass extinction of 
biodiversity as well as trapping the whole continent in 
poverty.
    I speak to you today as a conservationist and as a 
community leader who implement a concrete project and help my 
community. I was born in a M'Bororo pastoralist community. For 
centuries we have been practicing the seasonal herding of 
livestock to fresh grazing ground in the Sahel region, 
following the rhythm of the season.
    We protect our environment because our survival depends on 
it. Living in harmony with nature is a common principle shared 
by all indigenous communities in Africa, in the Amazon, in the 
Arctic, the Pacific Islands and everywhere.
    Although today we represent 5 percent of the global 
population, indigenous peoples effectively manage more than a 
quarter of the land and we help to protect 80 percent of the 
planet biodiversity and help the Earth's ecosystem, which are 
vital to the Earth's ability to absorb and store CO2.
    Tropical forests in the Congo, Amazon Basin serve as the 
lungs of our planet, yet, are under increasing climate pressure 
from extreme deforestation caused by the agro industry.
    This week, a diverse group of Amazon Brazilians' indigenous 
organizations signed a letter urging Congress to support 
AMAZON21, ensuring transparency and strength for financing in 
partnership with indigenous peoples.
    Land where indigenous peoples have forests rights, 
including government protection of those rights, have better 
conservation practices and lower incidence of deforestation and 
carbon emission than surrounding areas.
    Today, we all are facing the consequences of the climate 
change in America and everywhere on the corner of the world. We 
need you as leadership to partner with indigenous peoples and 
local communities to stop illegal logging, mining, poaching, 
and trafficking driven by criminal networks. Investing in 
nature as a solution can help countries tackling multiple 
challenges like food and water security, human health, and 
climate change.
    In closing, Mr. President, indigenous peoples can help to 
design these solutions through our traditional knowledge to 
help fighting drought and climate change. To implement this 
investment in nature, we need economic and technical support in 
recognition of our rights.
    Policy like AMAZON21 are crucial for enabling developing 
countries and indigenous communities to sustain ecosystem, 
secure livelihoods, and mitigate climate change.
    There is no pathway to a safe climate which does not 
involve a natural climate solution. Investment like those 
called for in AMAZON21 are essential for sustainable futures.
    I would like to thank Patrick Riley from U.S. delegation at 
the convention in the embassy of U.S. in Abidjan for kindly 
hosting me today, and the Chairman Meeks and your team, I 
guess, that you already visited here, and the staff at the 
embassy is sending you really great regards.
    Thank you so much again, Chair, for the opportunity.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Ibrahim follows:]

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    Mr. Connolly. Thank you so much. And, again, great timing.
    Ms. Bandura, you're now recognized for your 5 minutes of 
testimony. Welcome.

    STATEMENT OF ROMINA BANDURA, SENIOR FELLOW, PROJECT ON 
     PROSPERITY AND DEVELOPMENT, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND 
                     INTERNATIONAL STUDIES

    Ms. Bandura. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Meeks and 
Ranking Member McCaul, Representative Connolly, and members of 
the committee. It's really an honor to be here today and I 
welcome this important hearing.
    I'm a development professional. I'm not a conservational 
scientist or a climate scientist. So my remarks today will 
focus on the economic security and governance drivers of 
deforestation, particularly with regards to the Amazon, the 
largest rainforest in the world.
    At CSIS, we did a report on this with country case studies. 
So I'll give you some copies later. But just to provide a 
little bit of context of the magnitude of the challenge.
    The Amazon is about the size of the continental United 
States. It spans eight countries and has a population of about 
35 million people.
    The first point I want to make is that deforestation in the 
Amazon is a complex issue that is linked to structural 
challenges in these countries. It is not solely an 
environmental problem.
    Deforestation is a symptom of economic and governance 
vulnerabilities, including high levels of poverty, lack of 
economic opportunities. There's overall weak presence--State 
presence. Property rights are not well defined. There's land 
tenure issues, weak enforcement of laws. There are great laws 
in the books. Unfortunately, you know, State capacity is not 
there. And also inadequate infrastructure planning.
    We need to include these issues at the table. Otherwise, 
we'll, literally, not be seeing the forest for the trees.
    The second point I want to raise is that national and 
subnational governments of the Amazon are primarily responsible 
for preserving the environment and achieving sustainable 
development.
    These are middle income countries, sovereign nations, and 
own the rainforest. So the United States and the international 
community need to be mindful on how they engage in the region.
    My third point is that the United States can and should 
play a constructive role in the Amazon Basin in partnership 
with governance--governments, local stakeholders, and other 
donors, supporting not only environmental preservation but good 
governance, economic growth, and security.
    What are some ways to support the Amazon countries? First, 
the U.S. Government needs to take a more holistic approach in 
its programming on deforestation, linking assistance on 
environmental issues to governance, economic development, and 
security issues.
    This requires coordination among our U.S. bilateral 
agencies and programs focused on improving the capacity of 
local governments.
    Second, when implementing the AMAZON21 bill or any U.S. 
programs, there should be buy-in from national and subnational 
governments. Sometimes these different levels of governments do 
not talk to each other, and national plans and policies can 
become disconnected or at odds with some national plans, which 
leads to poor project choices and wasted resources.
    There has to be agreement and coordination among the 
different levels of government, especially with new actors 
investing in the region, for example, China, and private 
investors.
    These governance and coordination issues are important and 
should figure in our programming. Otherwise, what the United 
States will provide with one hand others will take with the 
other.
    Third, we need to work with other donors and actors in the 
region so that there is less fragmentation among programs and 
there's greater impact in conserving forests.
    As an example, Norway has, and I think it was mentioned 
before, has set up an Amazon fund already. There are many NGO's 
and indigenous communities on the ground with ample knowledge 
on forest conservation and we also need to tap into private 
companies to create sustainable economic opportunities.
    And fourth, the United States can continue providing 
training and technological solutions to better survey the 
forest and professionalize the law enforcement agencies on the 
ground.
    Advanced technology can be used to supply--for supply 
trace--supply chain traceability and can improve local 
governments' ability to enforce laws and address deforestation.
    Finally, I brought an example of what, you know, United 
States can do. This is acai, which is a super berry that is 
grown in the Amazon.
    It can be grown very sustainably and it's OPIC, now DFC 
funded an American entrepreneur for a processing plant and this 
is sold--you can go to Giant or if you want the supersized 
volume you can go to Costco and they are selling acai there.
    So this is just one example of, you know, sustainable 
development.
    So, to conclude, we are currently at a crossroads in 
responding to deforestation in the Amazon and this requires a 
multi-sector and multi-stakeholder approach.
    I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today. 
Thank you for your time.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Bandura follows:]

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    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Bandura, and thank you for 
bringing the product. That makes everything even more real. 
Thank you.
    We're not going to go into questioning by members and the 
chair is happy to recognize his friend and the great chair of 
the Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the Environment and Cyber, 
the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Keating?
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as someone that 
was at COP26 myself, I do recognize the urgency. You know, this 
is--we're not dealing with this in a current sense.
    We should have been dealing with this decades and decades 
ago, and I do realize the importance of involving the 
indigenous community in the decisionmaking, not just 
informationally but in the decisionmaking that is going 
forward.
    But I want to touch, briefly, because I think there's a 
moment of urgencies that is going to be underscored very 
shortly. Leader Hoyer mentioned the security issues that are 
attendant to deforestation, and deforestation poses grave 
global and domestic security risks as well.
    The U.S. military and intelligence officials have 
repeatedly warned that deforestation and climate change lead to 
food and water shortages, ecological degradation, extreme 
weather patterns, conditions that enable mass population 
displacement, terrorist activity and other forms of violence 
and conflicts between nations. Terrorist groups such as Boko 
Haram, al-Shabaab, and ISIS are known to exploit food 
insecurity to further their ambitions.
    And we're now in another crisis because of what I mentioned 
briefly before, the war in Ukraine. This fall, the world will 
see, I think, the devastating impacts, something that will far 
eclipse even the tragic casualties we're seeing on the 
battlefield with the people that are going to be starving in 
this world, particularly people in North Africa.
    We will also see certain countries like Ethiopia that have 
been part of a managed program, agricultural and preservation 
in these issues, that will be in a better position to survive 
it.
    So my point is this, that moving forward with this bill now 
is not only timely, it's urgent, and I think it's a perfect 
complement to the idea of managing our environment for our 
benefit.
    As we deal with these issues, the U.S. has to be in a 
leadership role. It's great that the U.K. and Norway and other 
countries are, but we have found time and time again, on these 
major issues the U.S. must lead.
    So this legislation is a terrific opportunity to lead in 
that front, and I wanted to talk--ask you the question how 
working with these other management techniques that is so 
necessary--I mean, we have seen before as fertilizer is scarce, 
there'll be more agricultural initiatives, where they're 
deforesting areas, using that ash to fertilize, which is only 
good for a year or two. Then they move forward and deforest a 
whole other area.
    So we have to manage these things. This piece of 
legislation, AMAZON21, going forward, would complement so many 
other initiatives around the world.
    So could you comment on the potential for this moving 
forward to really complement and to push forward so many other 
management techniques that we need to go with this for other 
countries.
    And as you mentioned, something else I saw at COP26 
enormous potential of private investment that exists. So I 
really think this is critical legislation that couldn't come at 
a more important time.
    So if you could comment on how this would increase that 
kind of partnership and among countries and on the private side 
as well?
    Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Representative Keating.
    I think you're completely right. The world is really 
looking for American leadership on this issue. Part of that is 
because American companies are looking for a signal--a signal 
around security to invest in nature.
    The one thing I know for sure is the nature tomorrow will 
be more valuable than it is today and that is an absolute 
truism, and the signals that we give here with AMAZON21 will 
enable companies to invest in nature and invest in carbon with 
more certainty in these countries that are rich in carbon and 
poor in other resources.
    I can also tell you that you're absolutely right that--you 
know, in all my life--I mean, my father worked in the timber 
industry at the very sort of--when I was a child in West 
Africa. I've never seen a country that has deforested itself 
emerge as a stable successful democracy in any easy way.
    So what we are setting up here is a foundational building 
block that will have ripple effects into the economies of these 
countries, into preventing loss of water, loss of habitat, 
livelihoods.
    Deforestation is difficult. People do it when they're 
really forced to do it, and all we're trying to do with this 
act is give them that incentive and opportunity to protect and 
restore forests at scale like they're doing in Kenya, like 
they're doing in Ethiopia, like they're doing in Colombia and 
there's several countries--Costa Rica is great, another great 
example--and thus help that move toward a more sustainable 
economy and a more stable democracy.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Sanjayan, and the gentleman's 
time has expired. But I do want to give an opportunity, Mr. 
Keating, for the other two witnesses to respond, if you desire.
    Ms. Bandura?
    Ms. Bandura. Yes, I agree and the issue of food security is 
going----
    Mr. Connolly. If you could just bring that closer to you.
    Ms. Bandura. Sorry.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
    Ms. Bandura. The issue of food security is also an 
important aspect in the Amazon because if we continue at this 
pace, you know, the water--the rainfall patterns will change 
and will affect, you know, agriculture, not only in that region 
but in South America and other parts of the world.
    So it's an important issue. In terms of insecurity, in the 
Amazon, there are also powerful groups--illegal groups--that 
affects the security of people on the ground and the indigenous 
communities as well.
    So my point on security is that also we need presence of, 
you know, law enforcement and we need good governance because 
many of the subnational levels of government do not have the 
capability to really, you know, monitor and enforce the law. So 
they also need our help. So that's all I'm going to say.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
    Ms. Ibrahim, any comments?
    Ms. Ibrahim. Yes, thank you very much for the questions.
    That's completely right. What is happening in my region in 
Sahel and also in all the subregions of the Congo Basin 
communities are fighting just to get access to the natural 
resources, and that creates a big conflict between them where 
they kill each other.
    And it is also the harm of all the terrorist groups who 
take opportunities because people has become more poor and then 
they come over the land and we really live in this area. So 
having these financed can help the community to settle.
    It's taught them to move from one community to another one 
like being internal migrant or international migrant because it 
can help them to create a life and livelihood and restore the 
environment.
    And investment--of course, having the private sector is 
very important. But we need the leadership of a country like 
U.S. We need public funding who can come to the communities and 
who can give talks to the young peoples.
    You know, in my communities we live that every day. We know 
that the younger generation are always going to look for their 
futures outside and they do not have any other choice because 
they did not went to school--to go to the offices. They just 
depend from the rainfall and when there is no forest--forest 
products, there is not enough rain to do the agriculture. 
Either they have to migrate or they have to join the terrorist 
groups. These kinds of initiatives can help them to
    Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania, Mr. Perry, for his 5 minutes of questioning. 
Welcome.
    Mr. Perry. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I'm 
going to probably spend most of my time on a statement here 
more than a question and some probably unwelcome and unpleasant 
realities.
    We're probably going to hear over and over again today 
about the threat of deforestation and I think it's real how 
it's critical to the environment to protect the forest and I 
agree with that.
    But, apparently, the Washington elite news or, correction, 
elites' answer appears to be throwing billions of U.S. taxpayer 
dollars into the wind in corrupt foreign places in an effort to 
make themselves feel better. I do not know if we're going to do 
anything that's better.
    Unfortunately, time after time, anti-fossil fuel activist 
types use the weight of the government to pick winners and 
losers without any consideration or little consideration of the 
unintended and unwanted consequences of their actions.
    The American people are told by the global elites that they 
must stop using fossil fuels or significantly curb their 
consumption.
    Yet, the environmentalists conveniently leave out the 
ecological devastation that will result from the pursuit of the 
so-called clean energy alternatives. Just because it's not 
happening in your town or maybe in your country does not mean 
it's not happening somewhere and that you're supporting it.
    For example, the Congo Basin is home to the second largest 
rainforest in the world and 60 percent of this forest lies in 
the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
    The DRC is also the world's leading source of mined cobalt, 
which is a critical mineral necessary for lithium ion batteries 
used in EVs, or electric vehicles, and battery storage 
projects, supplying approximately 70 percent--70 percent of the 
world's mined cobalt all coming from one place.
    As a result, the Chinese, with the assistance of the 
president's son, Hunter, are employing child labor to strip the 
country of its cobalt reserves with little--probably no concern 
about the safety of the children since they do the mining, the 
environmental impacts of the process, or what trees or forests 
need to be mowed down to effectively mine the area and move the 
product to the green end user in the West.
    It's not very green there. It's not green in the DRC. It's 
no coincidence that in 2017 the DRC saw more forest loss than 
any other country outside of Brazil. I do not see anybody 
crying for a reduction in the mining in the Congo for this at 
the same time.
    And this driver of rapid deforestation is only going to 
grow in intensity as the misguided push away from fossil fuels 
before its time should be continues.
    According to the International Agency--correction, Energy 
Agency's report on the role of critical minerals in clean 
energy transitions--and so this is the International Energy 
Agency.
    This isn't Congressman Perry telling you this. By 2040, 
cobalt demand could be anything from six to 30 times higher 
than today's level--we already talked about how much comes from 
the DRC--while this massive increase in the extraction of 
cobalt to feed the net-zero lie threatens the rainforest in the 
Congo Basin while enriching the Chinese and the First Family.
    It is by no means the only massive spike in extractive 
activities expected as a result of this misguided net-zero 
push. Again, quoting the EIA--correction, IEA's report on the 
role of critical minerals, solarvoltaic plants, PV plants, wind 
farms, and electric vehicles generally require more minerals to 
build than their fossil-fuel based counterparts.
    A typical electric car requires six times the mineral 
inputs of a conventional car and an onshore wind plant requires 
nine times more mineral resources than a gas-fired plant.
    Since 2010, the average amount of minerals needed for a new 
unit of power generation capacity has increased by 50 percent 
as the share of renewables in new investment has risen. We do 
not talk about that at all.
    By 2040--not that far away--the IEA expects lithium demands 
to increase by 4,200 percent, graphite demand to increase by 
2,500 percent, nickel demand to increase by 1,900 percent, and 
as they're called rare earth mineral demand--they're not rare, 
they're critical. They're not rare--to increase by 700 percent.
    All of these minerals have come to--correction, have come 
from somewhere and due to the keep it in the ground mentality 
of the Biden Administration it'll come from overseas where you 
cannot see it, where they disregard the environment, and that's 
the norm.
    This notable destruction of forests, natural habitats, et 
cetera, does not include the massive displacement that will 
come as a result of land use requirements to site wind and 
solar farms, which itself require massive amounts of 
deforestation.
    Added together, it's pretty clear the term clean energy 
transition is nothing more than a Soviet style propaganda and 
completely untrue but serves the party's aims.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I'd yield.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the 
gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Levin, for his 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Levin. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank Chair Meeks for convening this important hearing on 
deforestation and forest conservation, which, I think, proves 
how seriously our committee is taking, or most of us are 
taking, the climate change threat and the danger it poses to 
our whole world.
    I want to use my first question to position the role of 
forests and climate change within a broader debate about how we 
engage with the rest of the world.
    As the witness testimoneys have identified, only by 
recognizing that forest conservation is deeply intertwined with 
U.S. foreign trade and economic policies can we begin to roll 
back the tremendous harm done to this planet by, for example, 
the devastation of the Brazilian Amazon and Cerrado and the 
Indonesian tropics.
    Yet, too often, our collective stated commitment to putting 
people and the planet in the center of foreign policy is, in 
fact, trumped by other geopolitical or economic interests.
    Ms. Ibrahim, can you share your experience that may 
illustrate the importance of engaging with local groups, civil 
society organizations, and indigenous communities in developing 
U.S. climate change policy and how might the laudable goal of 
reducing carbon emissions through terrestrial carbon 
sequestration be undermined if local populations aren't 
properly brought in to such an undertaking?
    Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you very much, Congressman Andy Levin.
    So involving indigenous communities and local communities 
is the best way to protect our remaining forests and to restore 
what we lost already. So why I'm saying that? We cannot plant 
the trees in the offices and we cannot also have the trees 
growing over a night.
    So it is a process, and that's why for indigenous peoples, 
the local communities, the forest is a way of living. It is the 
law that you are giving to these kind of trees.
    It is not only like one kind of trees that we have to 
replant or protect. It is the ecosystem and this diversity that 
we wanted to have, the forest where we can have the insects, 
the birds, the animals who can cope and live in harmony with 
the peoples, but how we can do work in those communities.
    So the U.S. policies need to engage with the indigenous 
peoples, local communities, from the design of those policies 
because, at the end, we are the ones who are going to implement 
it.
    So if we design it, we know exactly which kind of land 
rights that we want to have in which place, how we can avoid 
the conflict over the land and over the access to the natural 
resources, how long time we can have profit from these forests 
that are giving us food, medicine, and also shelters, and how 
we can use these forests to be sustained for the next 
generations.
    So that's why we have our indigenous peoples' traditional 
knowledge over centuries who know how to manage and how to use 
it.
    So we can put those traditional knowledge with the lock 
that we have on the science, technology, all together can be 
combined to help those policies move forwards.
    Mr. Levin. Wonderful.
    Ms. Ibrahim. I think so.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you.
    Ms. Ibrahim. We need to have it across all the regions. 
Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that very much. 
It's fantastic. I want to ask another question of Dr. Sanjayan.
    In your testimony, you make a compelling case for investing 
in nature conservation and for the considerable returns that 
could be generated in terms of preventing more instability and 
sources of conflict in the future.
    What are the barriers the private sector is facing in 
actually making these investments and what role can Congress 
play in unlocking them?
    Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Congressman. The biggest barrier 
that I see right now is the barrier of supply. So we know the 
forests are there. We know communities are eager to engage. But 
the policies and the financial frameworks are not necessarily 
available for them to participate in the market.
    This is where USAID and other institutions can 
significantly help countries, communities, States, provinces, 
develop the tools and technologies from a policy perspective, a 
science perspective, and also a financial perspective to 
actually engage the market at scale.
    I think that is, literally, the No. 1 stumbling block and 
that's where U.S. leadership and the signal that it would 
create would instantly allow that flow to happen where the 
private sector can invest in forest conservation for the 
benefit of people and nature and, ultimately, our climate as 
well.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you so much.
    Mr. Chairman, my time is about to expire. I have several 
more questions but I can keep going. But I'm happy to submit 
them and hope the witnesses might answer them in writing if 
that's better.
    Mr. Connolly. We appreciate that. Thank you so much for 
being with us today, Mr. Levin.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you.
    Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the distinguished 
gentlelady from North Carolina, Ms. Manning, for her 5 minutes 
of questioning. Welcome.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Connolly, and thank you, 
Chairman Meeks, for holding this very important hearing, and 
I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here to share your 
expertise with us today.
    Ms. Bandura, we have seen growing concerns about the risks 
of triggering biosphere tipping points across a range of 
ecosystems around the world and the potential domino effects.
    Could you explain more about this concept and what you see 
as being the tipping point for forests like the Amazon 
experiencing deforestation and droughts?
    Ms. Bandura. Well, there are--sorry. As I mentioned, I'm 
not a climate scientist. But, basically, if we continue, you 
know, deforesting at the rate that we are there's going to be 
a--become a point where the--you know, the rainforest will not 
be able to function as a carbon sink and will emit more carbon 
into the atmosphere, and this also will change, you know, the 
rainfall patterns of the region.
    So I am not sure--you know, I cannot really address other 
rainforests or, you know, what are the--maybe Sanjayan can--he 
is a conservationalist. But this will have also impacts in, you 
know, our economic activities. So it's not just about, you 
know, environmental activity so but economic impacts.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you. Dr. Sanjayan, do you--would you 
like to add something?
    Dr. Sanjayan. Sure, very briefly. So it turns out that the 
Amazon, like, major rainforests generate their own rainfall and 
what that means it's a self-sustaining system, kind of like a 
glass bottle and you have a--like an aquarium, and as you get 
beyond a certain tipping point, its ability to regenerate and 
create that rainfall is fundamentally altered.
    That's something we have only recently learned. And two 
scientists, Dr. Tom Lovejoy, who recently passed away and a big 
champion for the Amazon, really made the public aware of this 
tipping point. And the other is Dr. Johan Rockstrom from the 
Potsdam Institute for Climate Science, who really established 
these ideas of the planetary tipping point.
    Now, if you ask me for a number, I would say it's probably 
around 20 to 25 percent. Once we destroy about 20 to 25 percent 
of a large rainforest like the Amazon, its ability to 
regenerate itself becomes difficult.
    If you live in Montana then you know once a forest 
disappears and it's a grassland, to put it back into a forest 
it's very, very difficult, if not nearly impossible.
    Ms. Manning. So I assume that what we're talking about is 
if we do not act--this adds a sense of urgency to our actions 
in this regard because if we hit that tipping point we cannot 
fix the problem that's been solved--that's been created.
    Dr. Sanjayan. That's absolutely right.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you. Like my colleagues, I have deep 
concerns about climate change, about deforestation, for exactly 
the reasons that you have just described here--about the impact 
on climate change, the impact that climate change is having, 
rather, on the availability of food production, clean water, in 
a variety of countries that can least afford the stresses on 
their populations and one result, as we have discussed, is 
migration away from those areas that put stresses on other 
countries.
    So I am supportive of the all of the above measures that we 
can take to address climate change, including the prevention of 
further deforestation, and AMAZON21, certainly, appears to be 
an important step, even perhaps a leap, in the right direction 
and this is something of huge importance.
    But I would like to ask about how we prevent abuse, 
misdirection, corruption, by either the governments or the 
intended recipients of the funding that could come through 
AMAZON21.
    And you're shaking your head, Ms. Bandura, so perhaps I'm 
in your area and you'd like to comment on this.
    Ms. Bandura. Yes, and this is an important issue, and as I 
referred at the beginning, you know, this is not only about, 
you know, environmental programming but governance and really 
fostering capacity for local governments and groups to really 
look at how the--you know, the money and we have to really look 
at how the money is being spent.
    A lot of the deforestation that is happening, as I 
mentioned at the beginning, there are very good laws to 
preserve areas and there are indigenous groups that, you know, 
live in these preserved areas.
    But there are other groups that are coming in and there's--
you know, there's no good law enforcement mechanism to really 
prevent these encroachments.
    The other issue is land tenure. There's, you know, 
corruption in there as well. So who gets the access--accessing 
the land in the rain forest. And, of course, you know, a lot of 
the people that are living in these regions also have not 
meaningful economic opportunities and are sometimes exploited 
by powerful groups that, obviously, are, you know, flourishing 
on corrupt activities and illegal activities.
    So I do not think it's only a role for USAID but it's 
working also with local law enforcement agencies and, you know, 
agencies such as Interpol. Because it's not just about, you 
know, the trees. There are a lot of other components happening 
in the rain forest, and I'll stop at that.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you. My time has expired. I would love 
to pursue this further, but I yield back.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Manning.
    The chair now recognizes the distinguished representative 
from Nevada, Ms. Titus, for her 5 minutes of questioning. 
Welcome.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask Dr. 
Sanjayan about the Mekong Delta, changing locations here for a 
little bit. The Mekong Delta--and these are some pretty 
impressive statistics--spans over 200 million acres. That's, 
roughly, the size of Texas and Arkansas combined.
    It spans China, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and 
Vietnam, and that the heart of the Delta runs over 3,000 miles 
from Tibet to the South China Sea. It accounts for up to 25 
percent of fresh water for people in the area and it's second 
only to the Amazon in biodiversity, home for about 1,200 unique 
freshwater species.
    But there's been research at the University of Nevada and 
at Utah State on deforestation in Cambodia and how rapidly that 
is accelerating. I wonder if you could talk about the impact of 
that deforestation on the Mekong and how that's impacting the 
whole area.
    Did you lose me? I cannot see myself. Am I still there?
    Mr. Connolly. I think your frozen colleague is asking what 
about--I mean, both Mr. Perry and Ms. Titus have asked us about 
other threats in the Mekong Delta in the case of Ms. Titus and 
the Democratic Republic of Congo because of the exploitation of 
cobalt, among other purposes.
    So maybe, Dr. Sanjayan, we might begin with you in terms of 
what about the--start with Mekong Delta but these other major 
rainforest areas that provide so much in terms of flora, fauna, 
drinking water, and serve as important sinks--carbon sinks--for 
the planet? Shouldn't we be worried about those, too?
    Dr. Sanjayan. Absolutely. So it's a great question, and I 
just want to point out one thing that the--this bill has full 
transparency built into it in terms of ensuring that the 
funding gets to the right people in the right way.
    It involves participation of indigenous and local 
communities, not just in the full design of projects, and it 
has strong transparency requirements.
    Now, the Mekong Delta is a place that Conservation 
International has worked in for two decades, and I can tell you 
that it's extraordinarily carbon rich. It truly is one of these 
irreplaceable carbon sinks, if you will.
    But the threats to it are many and deforestation is one 
threat. The other threat is, of course, water, and the third 
one, I would say, would be overfishing. Tonle Sap, for example, 
is--you know, produces more fish than all of the United States 
freshwater fisheries combined.
    So this bill works on one major part. It, clearly is not 
there to deal with every threat out there. However, a major 
reason for water instability in the Mekong Delta is because of 
deforestation and Cambodia, interestingly, is a country poised 
to really open up its carbon markets as a way of protecting 
forests.
    They need those investments and, you know, we are in the 
process of designing projects in Cambodia with very specific 
forest conservation targets in mind.
    So in terms of a place that's important for carbon. 
important for people, but also will benefit from this bill, 
Cambodia and the Mekong Delta would, clearly, be so-called in 
its cross hairs.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Connolly. I think possibly Ms. Titus might followup 
your last point with yes, but often countries'--political 
leadership in countries, local and otherwise, are faced with, 
yes, long term it's in our economic interest to protect this as 
a resource but short term I got to get--you know, my fishing 
villages need to make a living.
    And so I make short term decisions at long-term costs. 
That's the tradeoff, especially in poorer countries, and that's 
a dilemma that faces us all.
    And I think, Ms. Bandura, you touched on that. I mean, lots 
of factors in the Amazon but part of it is endemic poverty that 
drives people to seek a source of revenue that can be 
sustainable, from their point of view, even if it's at the cost 
of the environment.
    Dr. Sanjayan. I mean, the one thing I would mention is that 
this bill would allow financial flows to happen very quickly 
and that's partly because the private sector is eager for 
mechanisms like this in order to participate.
    So the lag time between, you know, developing a project and 
funding actually flowing in these projects would be, you know, 
in my estimation, like, 18 months.
    So that is a reasonable timeframe. It's not many, many 
years later before benefits start flowing. So I think it is a 
good mechanism to deal with this issue that you raised, which 
is people do need to eat and desperate people are put into 
desperate situations where this deforestation becomes their 
last means of survival, and we could stop that fast with an act 
like this.
    Ms. Bandura. Yes, and that's where also, you know, private 
sector innovation and know-how comes into play because, as I 
mentioned at the beginning, a lot of the, you know, jobs that 
are happening in the--you know, in the Amazon are either 
informal in nature or, you know, with very little pay, little 
protections, hazardous.
    Think about a mining in Peru--gold mining in Peru. That 
releases mercury in the water, and so we need to really bring 
in our--I mean, and that's where United States has the--you 
know, the biggest and most innovative private sector.
    You know, it allowed this to happen and so that's, you 
know, one tool that we--you know, we should leverage to really 
provide economic opportunities. We cannot ignore--we cannot 
deny economic opportunities to people. That would not be fair 
or truthful, you know, on our end. So----
    Mr. Connolly. So let me followup on that with you, Ms. 
Bandura. Let's just put it this way. The current leadership in 
the Brazilian government, led by President Bolsonaro, has not 
really developed a reputation for being passionate about 
protecting the Amazon and, in fact, arguably, even downright 
hostile to efforts to protect the Amazon and resentful of 
international concern expressed about the need to protect the 
Amazon.
    Your observations about the current Brazilian government 
and how do we kind of change attitudes there so that got a 
supportive receptive government that sees it as in its interest 
to try to protect this resource and avoid that tipping point we 
were talking about?
    Ms. Bandura. Yes, I mean, so----
    Mr. Connolly. And if you could bring that closer. Thank 
you.
    Ms. Bandura. So--I'm sorry about that.
    As I mentioned, you know, these are sovereign nations and 
we cannot, you know, really force, you know, leaders to change 
their minds.
    But we have some tools and there--I believe, like, Colombia 
is a very good example of what can be done in the Amazon, and 
if, you know, Colombia would be--is a partner of the United 
States and can also be, you know, leading in the Amazon, there 
are initiatives such as the Leticia Pact
    That was an initiative that was signed by Bolsonaro. It 
needs to be operationalized. And, you know, we have carrots and 
sticks. So if we are going to say we're going to implement this 
trust fund, provided that, you know, these conditions are met, 
that's--you know, that's both a carrot and a stick.
    So it's very--it's hard to, you know, persuade but, you 
know, we have some tools to do that and, you know, we'll see. 
But, you know, we cannot just force countries to adopt things.
    And, you know, pressure from, you know, the civil society 
and others, private sector, investors in Brazil and outside can 
also be one way, and OECD accession.
    Brazil wants to become part of the OECD. So that's also a 
tool that, you know, we can use to bring them to more, you 
know, sustainable standards.
    Dr. Sanjayan. I'd just add, Representative Connolly, that, 
you know, Ms. Bandura's report that she has here shows that a 
large number of Brazilians really do support strong 
environmental posturing. Most Brazilians are pro the Amazon. 
They want the Amazon to survive. But there is special interests 
that win out and that's what's happening now.
    There are two ways to work in Brazil even today. One is 
that indigenous peoples in Brazil, in particular, have large 
territorial access--stewardship, guardianship access, 
legislative access to land--and in indigenous lands we have 
found great allies in conservation and it's a significant part 
of the Amazon.
    And the second is that Governors, so one level below the 
Federal system--Governors are very willing within the Brazilian 
system to move legislation forward and protect nature within 
their own State jurisdictions.
    Mr. Connolly. You know, you both implicitly, I think, raise 
a question not easily resolved about how far does sovereign 
control go over what is a global resource.
    So is it my absolute right as a sovereign nation if 
something is entirely within my sovereign territory to destroy 
it, even if it has planetary consequences, and that's an 
unanswerable question at this time.
    But looking toward the future, it seems to me that one of 
our challenges is going to be to create global structures--
international structures--that do protect assets that go beyond 
my sovereign territory without, you know, compromising or 
surrendering sovereign control.
    But on the other hand, there are some--you know, you do not 
get to destroy the planet because you decide economically I 
want to exploit this unique resource that affects everybody, 
not just me, and how do we address that, you know, from an 
intellectual point of view.
    Do you want to address that, Ms. Bandura?
    Ms. Bandura. Well, I do not know if I can solve that issue 
but----
    Mr. Connolly. I thought you had a solution.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Bandura. It's a complex, you know, challenge. But yes, 
you know, you're right. These are, you know, global commons but 
there are other actors involved. So, you know, China was 
mentioned as well.
    There's a lot of deforestation happening--illegal 
deforestation--in Russia because of China. So how do we deal 
with, you know, that problem. There is also the issue that 
Representative Perry mentioned about mining, and so the climate 
transition has to take into account our mining resources.
    And so I--we need to also engage the private sector and the 
supply chains. That's one way that we could also motivate, you 
know, countries not to deforest or change, you know, the way 
that they source materials and how we sell the materials.
    If the private sector is involved in the supply chain 
sourcing that would be also one way.
    Dr. Sanjayan. Congressman, you know, if you go to New York 
City and go to Central Park and think about how expensive that 
real eState must be right there, and you see all these 
buildings built up right to the edge of Central Park, imagine 
someone trying to grab a bit of Central Park and putting up a 
skyscraper.
    Imagine the hue and cry that you would get in New York and 
around the world and, certainly, around this country, and the 
reason you'll get that is not because it's not valuable. It's 
simply because there is a constituent that will fight for that, 
because it is in the enlightened self-interest of every New 
Yorker to have Central Park protected.
    What AMAZON21 tries to do is to create that enlightened 
self-interest among indigenous communities, local communities, 
and governments to realize that what they have today is going 
to be worth more tomorrow and protecting it is not only in the 
interest of the planet but it's an all of--in their self-
interest as well, and it provides a financial mechanism to 
incentivize and sustain it over the long run, particularly 
through carbon markets.
    Mr. Connolly. I agree, and I think that's been the failure 
in the past to, you know, find formulas that create economic 
incentives to protect, to proactively cherish and enhance the 
resource at hand as opposed to, you know, economic 
exploitation.
    But it's a bit of a--well, it is a very difficult choice 
when you're talking about serious poverty and you cannot ask 
people to starve to death or forego economic opportunity for 
some greater good that they cannot see or experience, and so 
there have to be economic incentives built in and that's what 
this legislation does.
    Apparently, my time is up. Seeing and hearing no further 
members, I want to thank our panelists so much for an 
enlightening and stimulating conversation. We have got a lot of 
work to do but we're delighted that we have a piece of 
legislation we can act on and we begin somewhere, and this is 
our somewhere.
    So thank you so much for being with us today, and this 
hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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