    [House Hearing, 117 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

            FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 12, 2022

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 117-121

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

           Available:  http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
                                docs.house.gov,
                           or http://www.govinfo.gov

                                 _________

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    51-644PDF                WASHINGTON : 2023

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                      GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

    BRAD SHERMAN, California             MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
    ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey                  Member
    GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
    THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
    KAREN BASS, California
    WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
    DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
    AMI BERA, California
    JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
    DINA TITUS, Nevada
    TED LIEU, California
    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
    DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
    ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
    COLIN ALLRED, Texas
    ANDY LEVIN, Michigan
    ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia
    CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
    TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey
    ANDY KIM, New Jersey
    SARA JACOBS, California
    KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
    JIM COSTA, California
    JUAN VARGAS, California
    VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
    BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois

                                         CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
                                         STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
                                         JOE WILSON, South Carolina
                                         SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
                                         DARRELL ISSA, California
                                         ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
                                         LEE ZELDIN, New York
                                         ANN WAGNER, Missouri
                                         BRIAN MAST, Florida
                                         BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
                                         KEN BUCK, Colorado
                                         TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
                                         MARK GREEN, Tennessee
                                         ANDY BARR, Kentucky
                                         GREG STEUBE, Florida
                                         DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                                         CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                                         AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
                                         PETER MEIJER, Michigan
                                         NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
                                         RONNY JACKSON, Texas
                                         YOUNG KIM, California
                                         MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida

                        Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director

                   Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Hoyer, Hon. Steny, A Representative in Congress From the State of
      Maryland, and Majority Leader, U.S. House of Representatives;..     5
    Westerman, Hon. Bruce, A Representative in Congress From the
      State of Arkansas, and Ranking Member, House Committee on
      Natural Resources, U.S. House of Representatives...............    12
    Sanjayan, Dr. M., Chief Executive Officer, Conservation
      International..................................................    17
    Ibrahim, Hindou Oumarou, President, Association for Indigenous
      Women and Peoples if Chad (AFPAT)..............................    24
    Bandura, Romina, Senior Fellow, Project on Prosperity and
      Development, Center for Strategic and International Studies....    31

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing Notice...................................................    50
    Hearing Minutes..................................................    52
    Hearing Attendance...............................................    53

                  STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM CHAIRMAN MEEKS

    Statement for the record from Chairman Meeks.....................    54

             STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY

    Statement for the record from Representative Connolly............    56

                RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

    Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    58

                        FOREST CONSERVATION IN THE FIGHT
                             AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE

                             Thursday, May 12, 2022

                              House of Representatives,
                          Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:12 a.m., in
    room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gregory Meeks
    (chairman of the committee) presiding.
        Chairman Meeks. The Committee on Foreign Affairs will come
    to order. And without objection, the Chair is authorized to
    declare a recess of the Committee at any point, and all Members
    will have 5 days to submit statements, extraneous materials,
    and questions for the record, subject to the length,
    limitation, and the rules.
        To insert something into the record, please have your staff
    email the previously mentioned address, or contact full
    committee staff.
        And as a reminder, for Members participating remotely,
    please keep your video function on at all times, even when
    you're not recognized by the Chair.
        And Members are responsible for muting and unmuting
    themselves. Consistent with House rules, staff will only mute
    Members as appropriate, when they are not under recognition, to
    eliminate background noise.
        I see that we have a quorum. And I now recognize myself for
    opening remarks.
        Exactly 1 year ago today, this Committee held a hearing on
    the threat of climate change to our planet, it's ecosystems and
    our livelihoods. And with Special Envoy John Kerry as our
    guest, we were able to examine the United States' role in
    rallying global support ahead of COP26 in Glasgow.
        In Glasgow the United States was able to keep ambition high
    across a broad spectrum of challenge related to climate change.
    As a result, the world was able to move the ball forward on
    several critical issues, including mitigation, adaptation, and
    finance.
        And I want to thank our witnesses and members of civil
    society for being here today, and for their work surrounding
    the event as well.
        A year seems like a long time ago, and global politics have
    changed. And an unjustified war of aggression by a nuclear
    power has upended the postwar settlement, and rekindled threats
    that were thought left in the last century.
        In 2021, we saw the global economy rebound. And it rebound
    rapidly and unevenly, along with CO2 emissions. And according
    to the International Energy Agency, coal accounted for over 40
    percent of the overall growth in global CO2 emissions in 2021,
    compounded by the high natural gas prices.
        However, the planet does not care for geopolitics or
    prices. On the contrary, our oceans, and forest, and tundra,
    are being reshaped and destroyed at a frightening pace.
        As stewards of this earth, it is our duty to take action
    before the damage we're inflicting becomes irreversible.
    Further generations should not be forced to inherit a global
    crisis of our own making.
        So, today we are taking the time to examine the role of
    force in the fight against climate change and its worst
    effects. We're also going to discuss proposed solutions to slow
    down deforestation, stop illegal logging, and incentivize the
    protection of existing primary forests.
        Forests are essential to the good health of our planet, and
    by extension, our very survival. They are carbon six, holding
    more carbon than is produced annually by humans.
        They're a home. Home to more than three quarters of the
    world's life on land, representing delicate biodiversity. They
    are living spaces for humanity. Over one billion people around
    the world rely on forests for shelter and livelihoods,
    including 60 million indigenous people.
        When these cathedrals for nature are under threat, or
    burned, or turned into agricultural land, these livelihoods are
    under threat. Biodiversity is under threat, and that carbon is
    released into the atmosphere.
        However, when we protect forests, they represent a solution
    to combating, even reversing climate change. And this was the
    goal of the UK government leading in Glasgow, a commitment to
    end deforestation by 2030.
        Even China has signed onto the pledge. So, the United
    States has a role to play in this ambitious endeavor. Indeed,
    the difficulty is in the follow through. The devil is always in
    the details.
        Missing from earlier attempts to halt the drivers of
    deforestation were important factors, including indigenous
    voices who are directly impacted by deforestation. The
    solutions are not one size fits all. Sometimes simply allowing
    and enabling those with the most experience, and those with the
    most to lose, will help, and indeed lead the process.
        I'll stop there. And I'll turn to Mr. McCaul for his
    opening remarks.
        Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank
    Majority Leader Hoyer for being here today, and talking about
    your AMAZON21 Bill, and the Natural Resources Ranking Member
    Westerman, for joining us to discuss your work to address
    deforestation.
        As the Ranking Member of this Committee, I've had the
    opportunity to travel to Africa and Latin America, and I've
    seen the importance of conservation and preserving our
    environmental environment first hand.
        This Committee has an important role to play in conserving
    the environment, and that includes forests, marine sanctuaries,
    and endangered species around the world.
        Since my early days of serving in Congress, I've been a
    member of the International Conservation Caucus, one of the
    largest and most bipartisan caucuses in Congress.
        Conservation is a logical solution in addressing climate
    change. It's been championed by Republicans for over a century,
    all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt.
        He understood that we must protect our environment in
    sustainability, and manage our natural resources before it's
    too late. And I've been proud to have advanced bipartisan
    conservation efforts here in Congress.
        I've supported Congressman Chabot's Tropical Forest and
    Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act, and former
    Chairman Royce's legislation supporting a conservation area in
    southern Africa, the DELTA Act.
        I'm also the original cosponsor of Ranking Member
    Westerman's Trillion Trees Act. The United States has, and will
    continue to play an important role in preventing deforestation.
        And Mr. Chairman, I think we both have the same goal here.
    In the last 5 years alone, over $2 billion has been provided by
    Congress to protect critical landscapes, and empower
    communities to manage their own resources.
        But, there are other tools on the table aside from
    traditional foreign aid. For instance, engaging in debt for
    nature swaps and debt buyback programs, the United States is
    helping preserve land across the globe.
        The U.S. Development Finance Corporation has an important
    role to play as well. To engage the private sector and advance
    new innovations.
        Unfortunately, these efforts are under kept by the maligned
    activities of the People's Republic of China. China accounts
    for nearly a third of the global emissions.
        In fact, the PRC's emissions grew four times more than what
    the U.S. reduced. Today, China emits more than the entire
    developed world.
        CCP General Xi Jinping has said China only intends to
    become carbon neutral by 2060, a full decade after other major
    economies.
        We cannot wait decades hoping the CCP will be a reliable
    partner in addressing climate change. And we must also not be
    afraid to call them out on this.
        Their search for rosewood, an endangered hardwood used in
    traditional Chinese furniture has devastated the forests of
    Madagascar and the Mekong region. We also must stop illegal
    logging.
        We must decrease demand while increasing U.S. options on
    the global market for lumber, agriculture, energy, and critical
    minerals. This will decrease global emissions as the U.S. does
    it more efficiently and cleaner.
        America's a world leader in reducing carbon emissions,
    reducing emissions more than the next seven countries combined.
    And by 2030, over 90 percent of global emissions will come from
    outside the United States.
        I would have to say that America's climate policy should be
    based on America's resources, innovation, and our ability to
    compete to reduce global emissions.
        As I said, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Leader, we all have the
    same goal here. I'm intrigued by the idea of the rain forest.
    I've often said they are the lines of the world. And whatever
    we can do to help preserve the lines of the world, our children
    will be better, and their children will be better off.
        And so with that, I yield back.
        Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Keating. We'll now hear from
    the Chair and the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee that has
    oversight on climate and the environment.
        We'll start with Chairman Keating, we now recognize for 1
    minute.
        Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank the
    Leader, and Congressman Westerman, for being here today.
        There are many issues that the clock has already ticked on.
    And our environment is in a short period of time to deal with
    these.
        This is an important bill, because it takes the
    organization and the power of the State to take action, and to
    prioritize, and have some oversight over, you know, where the
    projects that are working, that will work, that will save
    ourselves, will take place.
        I just want to make one note of the deforestation issue
    that occurs in many areas, because it's going to be affected
    directly by our Ukraine war.
        Forty percent of the fertilizer in this world comes from
    Belarus and Russia. There's an enormous crisis right now on
    fertilizer. This is going to expand.
        And I'm afraid that the slash and burn type tactics that,
    or practices that are used for fertilizing for these countries,
    it's only going to expand. And it will expand in the worst
    places possible.
        So, Mr. Chairman, I would say, this is the time that's even
    crisis on crisis that's occurring with this. And this is why I
    support this bill and would love to see it move forward
    expeditiously.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Meeks. I now recognize Representative Steve Chabot
    for 1 minute.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding
    this hearing today. I want to thank Mr. Hoyer and Mr. Westerman
    for being here.
        And thank the Ranking Member for his kind remarks about the
    legislation which we have cosponsored in the House, along with
    Mr. Sherman, my Democratic colleague, and Mr. Portman and Chair
    Brown over in the Senate.
        We've been pushing this for a long time, it's the Tropical
    Forest and Coral Reef Conservation Reauthorization Act. It
    passed this Committee in a bipartisan basis this past year. And
    I'd like to focus my attention during the course of the hearing
    on that to some degree.
        We do also have, as I'm sure the Chair knows, we've got the
    Conference Committee. So, some of us are going to have to go
    over on that. And so we maybe in and out of here. And I know
    many of the members are participating virtually today.
        But, thank you for holding this hearing. We'd love to get
    that legislation across the finish line and get it passed into
    law if at all possible.
        I yield back.
        Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chabot. And today we have
    two panels with very distinguished witnesses.
        And of course on our first panel, we'll start with the very
    distinguished Majority Leader of the House, Steny Hoyer, from
    the great State of Maryland, who has been a long time leader in
    international climate space, and more importantly, a driving
    force behind efforts in this Congress to combat deforestation.
        And this is highlighted by his work on AMAZON21, which we
    will discuss very shortly. And I want to thank him for taking
    time from his schedule to be before our Committee today.
        And I also welcome the Ranking Member of the House
    Committee on Natural Resources, Bruce Westerman, from the great
    State of Arkansas.
        Ranking Member Westerman's work on Natural Resources
    Committee underscores the connection between domestic and
    international policy in this space. And we also appreciate you
    being here, Mr. Ranking Member.
        I now recognize the Majority Leader for his remarks.

      STATEMENT OF HON. STENY HOYER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
                    FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND, AND
             MAJORITY LEADER, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

        Mr. Hoyer. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having
    this hearing, but, more importantly, thank you for your
    statement and your commitment to the objectives that we, as Mr.
    McCaul said, all share. Mr. Chabot has said that as well.
        And I want to thank Mr. Keating for his leadership on this.
        Mr. Cicilline, thank you for being here and your work, and
    Ms. Manning, for being here.
        Let me start, Mr. Chairman, with the fact that this bill
    has a very simple proposition. And that proposition is, if we
    need to buy fertilizer, and we need to buy oil, and we need to
    buy coal, or we need to buy some other source, we expect to
    have that taken out of the land or the mine and given to us,
    and we, in turn, pay for it.
        The problem we have with the forest is the farmer who lives
    next door to the rainforest and who may want another 10 acres
    to farm, so he or she can support their family, their incentive
    is to take that rainforest out of the ground. The problem is
    the resource that we get from that rainforest is oxygen, which
    allows us to live. And we do not want him or her, or the
    government, to take it out of the ground.
        So, in a system that is incentivized by being able to
    support one's self, and therefore, get money in return for
    their product, we take the oxygen, but we do not pay for it.
    So, this is not charity. This is not foreign aid. This is you
    have something of value that you give us to us every day by
    having those trees in the ground, and we want you to keep them
    in the ground. So, the challenge is, how do we incentivize? How
    do we make that farmer able to support himself and his family
    or, frankly, that government be able to support itself, as
    opposed to selling it for wood, housing, whatever?
        And that is what this bill seeks to do. So, Mr. Chairman, I
    thank you for holding this hearing and allowing me to speak on
    an issue that has been close to my heart for a very long time.
    I started talking about this 20 years ago, and I am upset with
    myself that I did not pursue it more vigorously.
        Protecting the rainforest, and by extension, the health of
    our planet. Absorbing vast quantities of greenhouse gases,
    natural carbon sinks--such as rainforests, mangroves,
    peatlands, wetlands--serve, as Mr. McCaul said, the Earth's
    lungs. Without lungs, we die.
        Their well-being is inextricably linked, therefore, to that
    of humanity. In recent decades, however, deforestation has
    destroyed swaths, millions of acres, of these critical lands--
    worsening our climate crisis while simultaneously removing one
    of our greatest natural tools to address it.
        It is because of deforestation that Brazil and Indonesia
    are among the world's top 10 emitters of carbon. Indeed, the
    Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the world's leading
    climate scientific authority, has found that destruction of
    natural carbon sinks accounts for as much as a quarter of the
    world's total greenhouse gas emissions--rivaling or perhaps
    exceeding China.
        We need to take immediate and decisive action to protect
    these ecosystems. Our global effort to combat the climate
    crisis depends upon it. The future of the planet depends on it.
    The survival and success of humanity, ultimately, depends on
    it.
        At the COP26 conference, to which the chairman referred, in
    Glasgow last year, President Biden joined the leaders of 100
    other nations in an historic pledge to end deforestation by the
    end of the decade.
        Those of us who live in the so-called industrialized world
    use what is in the non-industrialized world--Brazil, of course,
    is both--we use their product. We do not see it and we do not
    pay for it. That is what this bill is about--incentivizing
    monetarily the retaining of these forests which we so badly
    need.
        AMAZON21--by the way, AMAZON is a wonderful acronym that I
    can hardly ever remember--but, just for your interest's sake,
    it says America Mitigating and Achieving Zero Emissions
    Originating from Nature. How is that for a tongue twister? But
    AMAZON itself is pretty easy to remember.
        AMAZON21 would help fulfill America's commitment to that
    global pledge--not just America, but these hundred other
    nations--commitment to that global pledge by establishing a
    trust fund which will enable the State Department to forge
    agreements with developing nations that will protect and
    restore their carbon sinks.
        In the past, the United States has been limited in its
    ability to enter into these bilateral agreements because of the
    short-term nature of funding through the annual appropriations
    process. Solving that longstanding issue, however, requires
    making long-lasting commitments.
        The trust fund created under my legislation--and ``my
    legislation,'' so many hundreds of people have worked on this
    legislation; I just happen to have my name at the front of it;
    I am proud of that, but I am so proud of the work they have
    done--would authorize the financing of conservation or
    restoration of nature-based climate projects abroad that
    protect carbon sinks far into the future.
        Similarly, AMAZON21 emphasizes transparency and results-
    based funding model to ensure our partners make good on their
    promise to halt deforestation. We are not going to pay money
    without making sure that, in fact, we are getting what we are
    paying for. Nations that enter into agreements with us through
    this legislation must agree to rigorous external monitoring,
    reporting, and verification of their progress. We know what
    satellites can do. You cannot hide from them.
        Improvements in satellite imagery capabilities have already
    made it impossible for partners to hide any violation. It is
    simple. If countries do not meet the terms of this agreement,
    of the agreement they have, they won't receive funding.
        In a sense, Mr. Chairman, this is about paying producers
    for a resource from which we already benefit, as I have said.
    That resource is the clean air we breathe. These payments are
    an investment in the continued availability of clean air and
    sustainable planet for us, for our children, and for
    generations of Americans to come.
        Moreover, the trust fund is designed to accept gifts from
    foundations, individuals, private companies, and other
    developed nations--this is a team project; this is not a U.S.
    project--to help maximize the impact of America's public
    investment. It is through these types of private-public
    partnerships that we can truly begin to tackle the
    deforestation crisis affecting our planet.
        AMAZON21 will also help developing nations participate in
    carbon markets, an important tool to leverage resources from
    the private sector to fund conservation work--getting credits.
    These agreements would allow us to shore up our relationships
    with developing nations that may otherwise fall under the
    influence, frankly, of authoritarian regimes seeking to exploit
    their resources instead of protecting them.
        It would also create a new technical assistance program in
    USAID to help them build their capacity to develop nature-based
    reforestation projects and scale them up, which I think Mr.
    Westerman's bill certainly would be helped by.
        Mr. Chairman, helping these nations protect their
    rainforests serves our national security interest and the
    attainment of our climate goals, to which both of you referred.
    Members of this committee know full well the long game that
    autocratic countries are playing in the developing world with
    initiatives like China's Belt and Road.
        We need to think creatively about how the United States can
    further our national security objectives while also tackling
    global challenges like deforestation in the process. With
    AMAZON21, America can firmly reestablish itself as a global
    leader when it comes to addressing the climate crisis.
        Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member McCaul, each and every
    person has a stake in this legislation's success. Whether you
    live in Bogota, Colombia; Brandywine, Maryland, in my district;
    Austin, Texas, in your district, we all depend on the clean air
    that Earth's rainforests and other carbon sinks help to
    protect.
        The climate crisis affects us all, and particularly, the
    most vulnerable and those with the fewest resources, as the
    committee will hear shortly. Programs like AMAZON21 are the
    most impactful and cost-effective options, in my view,
    available to us today to address the climate change.
        This model has already proven to work by nations like
    Norway and the United Kingdom, who have similar programs, and
    others that will set up similar trust funds and authorities.
    For a sense of scale, if fully funded, Mr. Chairman and Ranking
    Member McCaul, these programs in this bill would eliminate as
    many as 180 million metric tons of carbon emissions each year--
    an amount equal to the total CO2 produced by cars in the United
    States over a 2-year period.
        That is why I was proud to introduce AMAZON21 in the House
    last November and why I am glad to have this opportunity to
    speak about it with the committee today.
        And I want to thank Mr. Westerman. I do not know Mr.
    Westerman very well. We are a big body and we have not worked
    on things together. But I am so enthusiastic and appreciative
    of his participation with his bill, this bill, and other
    efforts that will join together. Mr. Chabot mentioned the
    legislation that he has. If we join these together, we are
    going to make a real impact for generations yet to come.
        I want to thank Mr. Sanjayan of the Conservation
    International for working closely with me on this bill over the
    past few years. You are going to hear from him in a little bit.
        I also want to thank Hindou Ibrahim for sharing her
    insights with the committee today and the perspective of
    indigenous peoples and others most vulnerable to the climate
    crisis.
        I also want to thank Chairman Meeks again for holding
    today's hearing and for cosponsoring this legislation with me,
    as well as Chairman Keating for shepherding AMAZON21 through
    the Europe, Eurasia, Energy, and Environment Subcommittee.
        I also want to thank all of you who are in attendance at
    the hearing today.
        I think this will have a major impact, Mr. Chairman. You
    and I have talked about this. I very much appreciate, as I
    said, your opening statement, which heightens the
    responsibility that we have. And I want to thank you for being
    tolerant with your time as well.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Hoyer follows:]

        ********* COMMITTEE INSERT **********
        Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Majority Leader, for your
    leadership. And as you said, and as the ranking member said,
    this is something that we could all agree and focus on it. That
    is why, with you, I am happy to have Representative Westerman
    join us.
        And, Mr. Westerman, you are now recognized for your
    comments.

    STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE WESTERMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
    FROM THE STATE OF ARKANSAS, AND RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE
          ON NATURAL RESOURCES, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

        Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member
    McCaul, and to the members of the committee. It is an honor to
    be here with Leader Shoyer, or Hoyer, to talk about--I have
    kind of combined ``Steny'' and ``Hoyer'' at one time to talk
    about something that we should all be able to agree on.
        And I am really excited about the topic of this hearing,
    and I am more excited from the fact that this is the Foreign
    Affairs Committee addressing this, because I think it is
    recognition by Congress that carbon in the atmosphere and
    solving that puzzle is not something we can solve alone.
        The atmosphere is a global entity. It does not have
    borders. And we cannot solve the carbon emissions into the
    atmosphere in the United States. It has to be a global effort
    to solve global carbon.
        And just to get some facts out on the table--and I will
    also tell you, when I was studying forestry at Yale's Graduate
    School, if I had known I was going to 1 day be the only
    forester in Congress, I might have taken more classes and
    studied a little harder.
        [Laughter.]
        But this is a topic that I am passionate about, and it is a
    topic we should all be passionate about. Because before the
    Industrial Revolution, there were 280 parts per million of
    carbon in the atmosphere. Today, there is 419 parts per million
    of carbon in the atmosphere. Without some carbon in the
    atmosphere to create a little bit of a greenhouse effect, we
    would freeze to death. Too much carbon in the atmosphere, we
    generate too much heat. So, there is a delicate balance there.
        We talked about the Trillion Trees Act. We talked about how
    Teddy Roosevelt said trees or forests are the lungs of the
    Earth. They breathe in carbon dioxide and they breathe out
    oxygen.
        If we think about that in a little more detail, trees are
    by far the largest scale, they are the most pragmatic,
    proactive solution that we have to atmosphere carbon. You hear
    all this talk about carbon capture and sequestration. Trees
    have been doing that since there has been trees on the planet.
    They pull the carbon dioxide out of the air. The photosynthesis
    in the internal parts of the leaf, they take that carbon and
    they make hydrocarbon tanks that are stored in the wood, and
    they give H20 and oxygen back out into the atmosphere. We know
    that science.
        But trees also offer a phenomenal benefit, in that wood is
    the ultimate carbon battery. And we talk about battery
    technologies. If you want to talk about something that stores
    carbon, it is wood. The wood in this table at one time was
    atmosphere carbon. Fifty percent of this wood by weight is
    carbon. And as long as this table is here, that carbon will be
    sequestered.
        That is why we have to look at the big picture here. We
    have to look at not only how we keep forests healthy and
    vibrant, but how do we use them--and that is what real
    conservation is--how do we use them to make a difference?
        I want to tell you the story of Arkansas, and this is a
    story that is really across the South. Last year, the State of
    Arkansas grew 44 million tons of wood. The State also harvested
    24 million tons of trees. Those trees got converted into wood.
    They are going into homes and they are storing carbon.
        There is 20 million more tons of wood in the State of
    Arkansas today than there was this time last year because the
    forests were managed healthier. And we can use our trees. We
    can grow them faster and grow more. We can protect special
    areas, and we can create building products that are very
    sustainable.
        That is why a company called Walmart in my home State is
    building their new corporate headquarters out of mass timber.
    Their new corporate headquarter building will contain 17
    million pounds of carbon when it is completed. It will be built
    with trees that were sustainably grown in reforested areas in
    Arkansas, creating local jobs and economic growth.
        That is the great story we have about forestry and trees,
    is that we can have a healthy environment and we can have a
    vibrant economy all at the same time. The impetus behind the
    Trillion Trees Act was a study that said that, if we planted a
    trillion trees across the planet, we could capture two-thirds
    of the carbon emitted by man since the beginning of the
    Industrial Revolution. That is 205 gigatons of carbon that a
    trillion trees would sequester.
        And for any other tree nerds out there, we have about 3
    trillion trees on the planet today. Scientists estimate that at
    one time there were 7 trillion trees. So, we have got a lot of
    headroom as far as we could go in creating more forests.
        Another fact that people do not realize is that, since
    1850, we have emitted over 200 gigatons of carbon through
    deforestation by forest fires. And we are not immune from that
    here in the United States. Last year, we burned 7 million acres
    of forests. The year before, it was 10 million acres--putting
    millions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere that was
    sequestered in the trees.
        And there is another side of that story. When you burn a
    tree, you are releasing carbon dioxide. When you char the tree
    and leave it on the ground and the bugs eat it, you are
    releasing methane, CH4, which is a worst greenhouse gas than
    carbon dioxide. There is nothing we can do to help air, water,
    and wildlife habitat more than having healthy forests.
        And, Leader Hoyer, I would love to work with you on this.
    And I thank you would find, though, a willing group in the
    Republican Party who could work on real forest reform on bills
    like the Trillion Trees Act.
        The bottom line is we have to take care of the forests we
    have, and there is hope. And I can tell you an example of that.
        A lot of people do not realize that, last year, in the last
    2 years, we lost 20 percent of the most iconic trees on the
    plant--the giant sequoias that grow only in a few groves in
    California. Forest fires destroyed 20 percent, 19 percent of
    those trees in 2 years. These are some of the most fire-
    resilient species on the planet.
        So, you had the intersection of two bad things. You had
    mismanagement of the forest and a warming, drying climate that
    intersected, and it is the perfect storm to destroy a tree that
    should never be destroyed by fire. These trees are over 3,000
    years old. Up until the 21st century, those groves in
    California averaged 31 fires per century. We created the Forest
    Service and started putting them out. In the last century, they
    averaged three fires. Now, Nature is correcting that.
        And I was out there last week, a bipartisan trip. We are
    going to have a bipartisan bill on saving the sequoias. Whole
    groves of sequoia trees, nothing but charred remains on the
    side of the hill--that should never happen. We should be
    ashamed that we let this happen.
        We cannot be exporting bad forest management policies to
    the rest of the world. We know how to do it right. We need to
    work together to get our house in order here and to export that
    technology and that help to other parts of the world. Because,
    as you mentioned, there is no place like the Amazon that has as
    many trees and as much opportunity to sequester and store
    carbon and give us clean oxygen to breathe.
        But we cannot have a policy that says do not ever touch the
    forest, because that is a management policy, or put the fires
    out. That is what we did in the United States, and we are
    paying a terrible price for that right now.
        So, I would really embrace the opportunity to work
    together; to follow the scientific research that we have; to
    work on policy that actually does good things; that is going
    to, at the end of the day, mean there are more trees growing on
    the planet, more carbon being sequestered, and more oxygen
    being released.
        One last fact. Transportation worldwide makes up about a
    quarter of greenhouse gas emissions. Buildings make up close to
    half of it. We have been focusing way too much on
    transportation, when we could focus on sustainable buildings,
    which wood could play a very important part of that, if we
    truly wanted to address the global carbon issue.
        Again, I have a friend that said that, when it comes to the
    environment, trees are the answer; now what is your question?
    And we need to follow that because the science backs that up.
        Again, thank you for having the hearing. Thank you for--I
    kind of took advantage of the Leader using more time and used a
    little bit more myself. So, thank you, Leader Hoyer.
        Chairman Meeks. It is called ``the magic minute.''
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Westerman. Yes. Very much so.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Westerman follows:]

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        Chairman Meeks. I want to thank both of you for your very
    passionate and eloquent testimony. And it really is an absolute
    honor and a privilege to have both of you here at our
    committee. Again, thank you for taking the time.
        And I will now excuse you, gentlemen.
        We will now turn to panel two.
        And as Mr. Chabot had said earlier, many of us will have to
    leave to go to the Conference Committee, and I believe Mr.
    Connolly will take over.
        I think, Mr. Connolly, I will give you the honor of
    introducing our guests.
        Mr. Connolly. Sorry for that delay. We had some niceties of
    exchange here.
        So our second panel we have two witnesses, Dr. Sanjayan--am
    I pronouncing that, Dr. Sanjayan, correctly? All right.
        Dr. Sanjayan is a conservation scientist and CEO of
    Conservation International, a global nonprofit dedicated to
    securing the critical benefits that nature provides to
    humanity. He co-led the launch of Conservation International's
    award-winning ``Nature is Speaking'' brand campaign, and he
    oversaw a successful $1.1 billion capital-raising operation.
        His scientific work has been published in peer-reviewed
    journals Science, Nature, and Conservation Biology. He's hosted
    and co-hosted a range of documentaries for outlets including
    PBS, BBC, and Discovery Channel.
        Ms. Hindou Ibrahim is an environmental activist and a
    member of Chad's--no. She's online. Sorry. And a--pastoralist
    M'Bororo people. She began advocating for indigenous rights and
    environmental protection at age 16 and founded the Association
    for the Indigenous Women and Peoples of Chad--AFPAT.
        She also serves as the U.N. Sustainable Development Goal
    advocate. She's vice chair of the Global Forest Coalition,
    Conservation International board member and Earthshot Prize
    council member.
        Ms. Romina Bandura is an economic and senior fellow with
    the Project of Prosperity and Development and the Project on
    U.S. Leadership at the--in development at the Center for
    Strategic and International Studies.
        Her current research focuses on the future of work in
    developing countries and the United States economic engagement
    in the developing world. She previously worked as a senior
    consultant at the Economist Intelligence Unit and an economist
    at the International Labor Organization.
        Without objection, all the witnesses' prepared--full
    prepared testimony will be part of the full record and I'll now
    recognize the witnesses for a 5-minute summary of their
    testimony, beginning with you, Dr. Sanjayan.
        Welcome.

        STATEMENT OF DR. M. SANJAYAN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
                       CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL

        Dr. Sanjayan. Good morning Chairman, Ranking Member,
    members the committee, Representative Connolly.
        My name is Dr. M. Sanjayan. I'm the CEO of Conservation
    International, a nonprofit supporting conservation in over 50
    countries. My vice chairman, Mr. Harrison Ford, and board
    member, Mr. Idris Elba, regret not being here today to support
    this testimony because of work.
        Thank you for inviting me to share my perspective on the
    forest conservation and fight against climate change, and how
    AMAZON21 can transform our efforts.
        Conservation International's mission is to protect nature
    that is most important to people, and everything we do is aimed
    at ensuring that people and nature thrive together. Since 1987,
    we have brought together businesses, governments, and
    communities to protect and restore nature, and everywhere we
    work our model helps communities create self-sustaining
    conservation-based economies.
        The AMAZON21 Act would substantially strengthen these
    efforts. At its core, this legislation incentivizes developing
    nations to protect and restore nature.
        It rewards action that maintains the health of some of our
    most critical, most iconic ecosystems, while unlocking
    financial opportunities for local communities and landowners
    that commit to conservation.
        This bill is good for wildlife. It's good for ecosystems.
    It's good for the climate. But it's also in equal measure good
    for local communities and indigenous peoples, good for
    economies and security, not only food security and climate
    security but also national security.
        In short, it's good for us. The science on this is clear.
    Nature is the building block required for a stable future for
    all of humanity. And, yet, nature is under assault virtually
    everywhere with little to no investment to reverse or halt this
    trend.
        Today, only 3 percent of all available global climate
    finance is dedicated to protecting nature. There is a massive
    gap between what we need and what we have, and yet the demand
    for private sector nature-based investments and opportunities
    is sky high.
        It's, clearly, there. Right now, there are literally
    billions of dollars in private capital for nature-based
    investments sidelined by uncertainty and sidelined by risk.
        In just the last two or 3 years, for example, we have seen
    private sector interest in carbon markets soaring and it could
    easily exceed $50 billion before the end of this decade.
        Through carbon markets, companies and individuals can
    invest in the protection of nature, thus shortening the time
    line to achieve our climate goals. By enabling private-public
    partnerships, this bill would allow new investments to reach
    places where policy and markets do not.
        We're not tilling new soil here. In 1984, Congress
    established the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation to work
    with both the public and private sectors to protect nature, and
    since then, the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation has
    become the largest private conservation grant maker in the
    United States.
        The AMAZON21 Act brings this concept of public-private
    partnerships to a global stage. More than half the world's GDP
    already depends, in some ways, on the benefits provided by
    nature.
        The loss of these benefits would be catastrophic and would
    amount to a loss of $2.7 trillion dollars. As always, the
    poorest countries, the neediest rural communities, would be the
    hardest hit, accelerating resource depletion, famines, climate-
    fueled migration--a recipe as, we all know, for global
    instability.
        AMAZON21 would dramatically and cost effectively stave off
    these effects. In the places where I have spent my formative
    years--South Asia, West and East Africa, California, and
    Montana--I have seen firsthand how climate change has made life
    harder for everyone and virtually impossible for some.
        This legislation would help secure the nature that people
    need to survive and it would maintain our country's global
    leadership and rich conservation legacy. In the United States,
    our most beloved landscapes and iconic wildlife remain today
    because of our long history of bipartisan conservation.
        The entire team and board of directors at Conservation
    International thank Majority Leader Hoyer for his leadership in
    crafting AMAZON21, and this committee and all of you for
    holding this important hearing.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Sanjayan follows:]

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        Mr. Connolly. Thank you. You had 5 seconds to go. Thank you
    very much.
        Before I call on Ms. Ibrahim, I do want to acknowledge from
    the chair our distinguished majority leader and his leadership
    on this issue, and, Mr. Hoyer, thank you so much for being here
    and for showing us the way.
        Steny Hoyer has always been a leader in this area and has
    been an inspiration and a model for so many of us here in
    Congress. So thank you. Your leadership is going to make a big
    difference.
        Ms. Ibrahim, you are now recognized for your 5 minutes of
    testimony. Welcome.

    STATEMENT OF HINDOU OUMAROU IBRAHIM, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION FOR
              INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND PEOPLES OF CHAD (AFPAT)

        Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you, Chair. My name is Hindou Oumarou
    Ibrahim. I am the president of the Association for Indigenous
    Women and Peoples of Chad.
        I want to thank Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member McCaul and
    the members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee for the
    opportunity to discuss the importance of the U.S. leadership in
    nature conservation and investing in natural climate solutions.
        I am pleased to share my perspective as an indigenous
    person on these critical needs for investments in conservation
    worldwide, including through the AMAZON21 Act, thanks to
    Congressman Hoyer for his leadership on climate and his
    advocacy for indigenous peoples.
        I am joining you today from Abidjan, where I am speaking at
    a convention to combat decertification, a crisis exacerbated by
    climate change and contributing to the mass extinction of
    biodiversity as well as trapping the whole continent in
    poverty.
        I speak to you today as a conservationist and as a
    community leader who implement a concrete project and help my
    community. I was born in a M'Bororo pastoralist community. For
    centuries we have been practicing the seasonal herding of
    livestock to fresh grazing ground in the Sahel region,
    following the rhythm of the season.
        We protect our environment because our survival depends on
    it. Living in harmony with nature is a common principle shared
    by all indigenous communities in Africa, in the Amazon, in the
    Arctic, the Pacific Islands and everywhere.
        Although today we represent 5 percent of the global
    population, indigenous peoples effectively manage more than a
    quarter of the land and we help to protect 80 percent of the
    planet biodiversity and help the Earth's ecosystem, which are
    vital to the Earth's ability to absorb and store CO2.
        Tropical forests in the Congo, Amazon Basin serve as the
    lungs of our planet, yet, are under increasing climate pressure
    from extreme deforestation caused by the agro industry.
        This week, a diverse group of Amazon Brazilians' indigenous
    organizations signed a letter urging Congress to support
    AMAZON21, ensuring transparency and strength for financing in
    partnership with indigenous peoples.
        Land where indigenous peoples have forests rights,
    including government protection of those rights, have better
    conservation practices and lower incidence of deforestation and
    carbon emission than surrounding areas.
        Today, we all are facing the consequences of the climate
    change in America and everywhere on the corner of the world. We
    need you as leadership to partner with indigenous peoples and
    local communities to stop illegal logging, mining, poaching,
    and trafficking driven by criminal networks. Investing in
    nature as a solution can help countries tackling multiple
    challenges like food and water security, human health, and
    climate change.
        In closing, Mr. President, indigenous peoples can help to
    design these solutions through our traditional knowledge to
    help fighting drought and climate change. To implement this
    investment in nature, we need economic and technical support in
    recognition of our rights.
        Policy like AMAZON21 are crucial for enabling developing
    countries and indigenous communities to sustain ecosystem,
    secure livelihoods, and mitigate climate change.
        There is no pathway to a safe climate which does not
    involve a natural climate solution. Investment like those
    called for in AMAZON21 are essential for sustainable futures.
        I would like to thank Patrick Riley from U.S. delegation at
    the convention in the embassy of U.S. in Abidjan for kindly
    hosting me today, and the Chairman Meeks and your team, I
    guess, that you already visited here, and the staff at the
    embassy is sending you really great regards.
        Thank you so much again, Chair, for the opportunity.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Ibrahim follows:]

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        Mr. Connolly. Thank you so much. And, again, great timing.
        Ms. Bandura, you're now recognized for your 5 minutes of
    testimony. Welcome.

        STATEMENT OF ROMINA BANDURA, SENIOR FELLOW, PROJECT ON
         PROSPERITY AND DEVELOPMENT, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND
                         INTERNATIONAL STUDIES

        Ms. Bandura. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Meeks and
    Ranking Member McCaul, Representative Connolly, and members of
    the committee. It's really an honor to be here today and I
    welcome this important hearing.
        I'm a development professional. I'm not a conservational
    scientist or a climate scientist. So my remarks today will
    focus on the economic security and governance drivers of
    deforestation, particularly with regards to the Amazon, the
    largest rainforest in the world.
        At CSIS, we did a report on this with country case studies.
    So I'll give you some copies later. But just to provide a
    little bit of context of the magnitude of the challenge.
        The Amazon is about the size of the continental United
    States. It spans eight countries and has a population of about
    35 million people.
        The first point I want to make is that deforestation in the
    Amazon is a complex issue that is linked to structural
    challenges in these countries. It is not solely an
    environmental problem.
        Deforestation is a symptom of economic and governance
    vulnerabilities, including high levels of poverty, lack of
    economic opportunities. There's overall weak presence--State
    presence. Property rights are not well defined. There's land
    tenure issues, weak enforcement of laws. There are great laws
    in the books. Unfortunately, you know, State capacity is not
    there. And also inadequate infrastructure planning.
        We need to include these issues at the table. Otherwise,
    we'll, literally, not be seeing the forest for the trees.
        The second point I want to raise is that national and
    subnational governments of the Amazon are primarily responsible
    for preserving the environment and achieving sustainable
    development.
        These are middle income countries, sovereign nations, and
    own the rainforest. So the United States and the international
    community need to be mindful on how they engage in the region.
        My third point is that the United States can and should
    play a constructive role in the Amazon Basin in partnership
    with governance--governments, local stakeholders, and other
    donors, supporting not only environmental preservation but good
    governance, economic growth, and security.
        What are some ways to support the Amazon countries? First,
    the U.S. Government needs to take a more holistic approach in
    its programming on deforestation, linking assistance on
    environmental issues to governance, economic development, and
    security issues.
        This requires coordination among our U.S. bilateral
    agencies and programs focused on improving the capacity of
    local governments.
        Second, when implementing the AMAZON21 bill or any U.S.
    programs, there should be buy-in from national and subnational
    governments. Sometimes these different levels of governments do
    not talk to each other, and national plans and policies can
    become disconnected or at odds with some national plans, which
    leads to poor project choices and wasted resources.
        There has to be agreement and coordination among the
    different levels of government, especially with new actors
    investing in the region, for example, China, and private
    investors.
        These governance and coordination issues are important and
    should figure in our programming. Otherwise, what the United
    States will provide with one hand others will take with the
    other.
        Third, we need to work with other donors and actors in the
    region so that there is less fragmentation among programs and
    there's greater impact in conserving forests.
        As an example, Norway has, and I think it was mentioned
    before, has set up an Amazon fund already. There are many NGO's
    and indigenous communities on the ground with ample knowledge
    on forest conservation and we also need to tap into private
    companies to create sustainable economic opportunities.
        And fourth, the United States can continue providing
    training and technological solutions to better survey the
    forest and professionalize the law enforcement agencies on the
    ground.
        Advanced technology can be used to supply--for supply
    trace--supply chain traceability and can improve local
    governments' ability to enforce laws and address deforestation.
        Finally, I brought an example of what, you know, United
    States can do. This is acai, which is a super berry that is
    grown in the Amazon.
        It can be grown very sustainably and it's OPIC, now DFC
    funded an American entrepreneur for a processing plant and this
    is sold--you can go to Giant or if you want the supersized
    volume you can go to Costco and they are selling acai there.
        So this is just one example of, you know, sustainable
    development.
        So, to conclude, we are currently at a crossroads in
    responding to deforestation in the Amazon and this requires a
    multi-sector and multi-stakeholder approach.
        I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today.
    Thank you for your time.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Bandura follows:]

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        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Bandura, and thank you for
    bringing the product. That makes everything even more real.
    Thank you.
        We're not going to go into questioning by members and the
    chair is happy to recognize his friend and the great chair of
    the Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the Environment and Cyber,
    the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Keating.
        Mr. Keating?
        Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as someone that
    was at COP26 myself, I do recognize the urgency. You know, this
    is--we're not dealing with this in a current sense.
        We should have been dealing with this decades and decades
    ago, and I do realize the importance of involving the
    indigenous community in the decisionmaking, not just
    informationally but in the decisionmaking that is going
    forward.
        But I want to touch, briefly, because I think there's a
    moment of urgencies that is going to be underscored very
    shortly. Leader Hoyer mentioned the security issues that are
    attendant to deforestation, and deforestation poses grave
    global and domestic security risks as well.
        The U.S. military and intelligence officials have
    repeatedly warned that deforestation and climate change lead to
    food and water shortages, ecological degradation, extreme
    weather patterns, conditions that enable mass population
    displacement, terrorist activity and other forms of violence
    and conflicts between nations. Terrorist groups such as Boko
    Haram, al-Shabaab, and ISIS are known to exploit food
    insecurity to further their ambitions.
        And we're now in another crisis because of what I mentioned
    briefly before, the war in Ukraine. This fall, the world will
    see, I think, the devastating impacts, something that will far
    eclipse even the tragic casualties we're seeing on the
    battlefield with the people that are going to be starving in
    this world, particularly people in North Africa.
        We will also see certain countries like Ethiopia that have
    been part of a managed program, agricultural and preservation
    in these issues, that will be in a better position to survive
    it.
        So my point is this, that moving forward with this bill now
    is not only timely, it's urgent, and I think it's a perfect
    complement to the idea of managing our environment for our
    benefit.
        As we deal with these issues, the U.S. has to be in a
    leadership role. It's great that the U.K. and Norway and other
    countries are, but we have found time and time again, on these
    major issues the U.S. must lead.
        So this legislation is a terrific opportunity to lead in
    that front, and I wanted to talk--ask you the question how
    working with these other management techniques that is so
    necessary--I mean, we have seen before as fertilizer is scarce,
    there'll be more agricultural initiatives, where they're
    deforesting areas, using that ash to fertilize, which is only
    good for a year or two. Then they move forward and deforest a
    whole other area.
        So we have to manage these things. This piece of
    legislation, AMAZON21, going forward, would complement so many
    other initiatives around the world.
        So could you comment on the potential for this moving
    forward to really complement and to push forward so many other
    management techniques that we need to go with this for other
    countries.
        And as you mentioned, something else I saw at COP26
    enormous potential of private investment that exists. So I
    really think this is critical legislation that couldn't come at
    a more important time.
        So if you could comment on how this would increase that
    kind of partnership and among countries and on the private side
    as well?
        Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Representative Keating.
        I think you're completely right. The world is really
    looking for American leadership on this issue. Part of that is
    because American companies are looking for a signal--a signal
    around security to invest in nature.
        The one thing I know for sure is the nature tomorrow will
    be more valuable than it is today and that is an absolute
    truism, and the signals that we give here with AMAZON21 will
    enable companies to invest in nature and invest in carbon with
    more certainty in these countries that are rich in carbon and
    poor in other resources.
        I can also tell you that you're absolutely right that--you
    know, in all my life--I mean, my father worked in the timber
    industry at the very sort of--when I was a child in West
    Africa. I've never seen a country that has deforested itself
    emerge as a stable successful democracy in any easy way.
        So what we are setting up here is a foundational building
    block that will have ripple effects into the economies of these
    countries, into preventing loss of water, loss of habitat,
    livelihoods.
        Deforestation is difficult. People do it when they're
    really forced to do it, and all we're trying to do with this
    act is give them that incentive and opportunity to protect and
    restore forests at scale like they're doing in Kenya, like
    they're doing in Ethiopia, like they're doing in Colombia and
    there's several countries--Costa Rica is great, another great
    example--and thus help that move toward a more sustainable
    economy and a more stable democracy.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Sanjayan, and the gentleman's
    time has expired. But I do want to give an opportunity, Mr.
    Keating, for the other two witnesses to respond, if you desire.
        Ms. Bandura?
        Ms. Bandura. Yes, I agree and the issue of food security is
    going----
        Mr. Connolly. If you could just bring that closer to you.
        Ms. Bandura. Sorry.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
        Ms. Bandura. The issue of food security is also an
    important aspect in the Amazon because if we continue at this
    pace, you know, the water--the rainfall patterns will change
    and will affect, you know, agriculture, not only in that region
    but in South America and other parts of the world.
        So it's an important issue. In terms of insecurity, in the
    Amazon, there are also powerful groups--illegal groups--that
    affects the security of people on the ground and the indigenous
    communities as well.
        So my point on security is that also we need presence of,
    you know, law enforcement and we need good governance because
    many of the subnational levels of government do not have the
    capability to really, you know, monitor and enforce the law. So
    they also need our help. So that's all I'm going to say.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
        Ms. Ibrahim, any comments?
        Ms. Ibrahim. Yes, thank you very much for the questions.
        That's completely right. What is happening in my region in
    Sahel and also in all the subregions of the Congo Basin
    communities are fighting just to get access to the natural
    resources, and that creates a big conflict between them where
    they kill each other.
        And it is also the harm of all the terrorist groups who
    take opportunities because people has become more poor and then
    they come over the land and we really live in this area. So
    having these financed can help the community to settle.
        It's taught them to move from one community to another one
    like being internal migrant or international migrant because it
    can help them to create a life and livelihood and restore the
    environment.
        And investment--of course, having the private sector is
    very important. But we need the leadership of a country like
    U.S. We need public funding who can come to the communities and
    who can give talks to the young peoples.
        You know, in my communities we live that every day. We know
    that the younger generation are always going to look for their
    futures outside and they do not have any other choice because
    they did not went to school--to go to the offices. They just
    depend from the rainfall and when there is no forest--forest
    products, there is not enough rain to do the agriculture.
    Either they have to migrate or they have to join the terrorist
    groups. These kinds of initiatives can help them to
        Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from
    Pennsylvania, Mr. Perry, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Welcome.
        Mr. Perry. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I'm
    going to probably spend most of my time on a statement here
    more than a question and some probably unwelcome and unpleasant
    realities.
        We're probably going to hear over and over again today
    about the threat of deforestation and I think it's real how
    it's critical to the environment to protect the forest and I
    agree with that.
        But, apparently, the Washington elite news or, correction,
    elites' answer appears to be throwing billions of U.S. taxpayer
    dollars into the wind in corrupt foreign places in an effort to
    make themselves feel better. I do not know if we're going to do
    anything that's better.
        Unfortunately, time after time, anti-fossil fuel activist
    types use the weight of the government to pick winners and
    losers without any consideration or little consideration of the
    unintended and unwanted consequences of their actions.
        The American people are told by the global elites that they
    must stop using fossil fuels or significantly curb their
    consumption.
        Yet, the environmentalists conveniently leave out the
    ecological devastation that will result from the pursuit of the
    so-called clean energy alternatives. Just because it's not
    happening in your town or maybe in your country does not mean
    it's not happening somewhere and that you're supporting it.
        For example, the Congo Basin is home to the second largest
    rainforest in the world and 60 percent of this forest lies in
    the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
        The DRC is also the world's leading source of mined cobalt,
    which is a critical mineral necessary for lithium ion batteries
    used in EVs, or electric vehicles, and battery storage
    projects, supplying approximately 70 percent--70 percent of the
    world's mined cobalt all coming from one place.
        As a result, the Chinese, with the assistance of the
    president's son, Hunter, are employing child labor to strip the
    country of its cobalt reserves with little--probably no concern
    about the safety of the children since they do the mining, the
    environmental impacts of the process, or what trees or forests
    need to be mowed down to effectively mine the area and move the
    product to the green end user in the West.
        It's not very green there. It's not green in the DRC. It's
    no coincidence that in 2017 the DRC saw more forest loss than
    any other country outside of Brazil. I do not see anybody
    crying for a reduction in the mining in the Congo for this at
    the same time.
        And this driver of rapid deforestation is only going to
    grow in intensity as the misguided push away from fossil fuels
    before its time should be continues.
        According to the International Agency--correction, Energy
    Agency's report on the role of critical minerals in clean
    energy transitions--and so this is the International Energy
    Agency.
        This isn't Congressman Perry telling you this. By 2040,
    cobalt demand could be anything from six to 30 times higher
    than today's level--we already talked about how much comes from
    the DRC--while this massive increase in the extraction of
    cobalt to feed the net-zero lie threatens the rainforest in the
    Congo Basin while enriching the Chinese and the First Family.
        It is by no means the only massive spike in extractive
    activities expected as a result of this misguided net-zero
    push. Again, quoting the EIA--correction, IEA's report on the
    role of critical minerals, solarvoltaic plants, PV plants, wind
    farms, and electric vehicles generally require more minerals to
    build than their fossil-fuel based counterparts.
        A typical electric car requires six times the mineral
    inputs of a conventional car and an onshore wind plant requires
    nine times more mineral resources than a gas-fired plant.
        Since 2010, the average amount of minerals needed for a new
    unit of power generation capacity has increased by 50 percent
    as the share of renewables in new investment has risen. We do
    not talk about that at all.
        By 2040--not that far away--the IEA expects lithium demands
    to increase by 4,200 percent, graphite demand to increase by
    2,500 percent, nickel demand to increase by 1,900 percent, and
    as they're called rare earth mineral demand--they're not rare,
    they're critical. They're not rare--to increase by 700 percent.
        All of these minerals have come to--correction, have come
    from somewhere and due to the keep it in the ground mentality
    of the Biden Administration it'll come from overseas where you
    cannot see it, where they disregard the environment, and that's
    the norm.
        This notable destruction of forests, natural habitats, et
    cetera, does not include the massive displacement that will
    come as a result of land use requirements to site wind and
    solar farms, which itself require massive amounts of
    deforestation.
        Added together, it's pretty clear the term clean energy
    transition is nothing more than a Soviet style propaganda and
    completely untrue but serves the party's aims.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I'd yield.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the
    gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Levin, for his 5 minutes of
    questioning.
        Mr. Levin. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to
    thank Chair Meeks for convening this important hearing on
    deforestation and forest conservation, which, I think, proves
    how seriously our committee is taking, or most of us are
    taking, the climate change threat and the danger it poses to
    our whole world.
        I want to use my first question to position the role of
    forests and climate change within a broader debate about how we
    engage with the rest of the world.
        As the witness testimoneys have identified, only by
    recognizing that forest conservation is deeply intertwined with
    U.S. foreign trade and economic policies can we begin to roll
    back the tremendous harm done to this planet by, for example,
    the devastation of the Brazilian Amazon and Cerrado and the
    Indonesian tropics.
        Yet, too often, our collective stated commitment to putting
    people and the planet in the center of foreign policy is, in
    fact, trumped by other geopolitical or economic interests.
        Ms. Ibrahim, can you share your experience that may
    illustrate the importance of engaging with local groups, civil
    society organizations, and indigenous communities in developing
    U.S. climate change policy and how might the laudable goal of
    reducing carbon emissions through terrestrial carbon
    sequestration be undermined if local populations aren't
    properly brought in to such an undertaking?
        Ms. Ibrahim. Thank you very much, Congressman Andy Levin.
        So involving indigenous communities and local communities
    is the best way to protect our remaining forests and to restore
    what we lost already. So why I'm saying that? We cannot plant
    the trees in the offices and we cannot also have the trees
    growing over a night.
        So it is a process, and that's why for indigenous peoples,
    the local communities, the forest is a way of living. It is the
    law that you are giving to these kind of trees.
        It is not only like one kind of trees that we have to
    replant or protect. It is the ecosystem and this diversity that
    we wanted to have, the forest where we can have the insects,
    the birds, the animals who can cope and live in harmony with
    the peoples, but how we can do work in those communities.
        So the U.S. policies need to engage with the indigenous
    peoples, local communities, from the design of those policies
    because, at the end, we are the ones who are going to implement
    it.
        So if we design it, we know exactly which kind of land
    rights that we want to have in which place, how we can avoid
    the conflict over the land and over the access to the natural
    resources, how long time we can have profit from these forests
    that are giving us food, medicine, and also shelters, and how
    we can use these forests to be sustained for the next
    generations.
        So that's why we have our indigenous peoples' traditional
    knowledge over centuries who know how to manage and how to use
    it.
        So we can put those traditional knowledge with the lock
    that we have on the science, technology, all together can be
    combined to help those policies move forwards.
        Mr. Levin. Wonderful.
        Ms. Ibrahim. I think so.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you.
        Ms. Ibrahim. We need to have it across all the regions.
    Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that very much.
    It's fantastic. I want to ask another question of Dr. Sanjayan.
        In your testimony, you make a compelling case for investing
    in nature conservation and for the considerable returns that
    could be generated in terms of preventing more instability and
    sources of conflict in the future.
        What are the barriers the private sector is facing in
    actually making these investments and what role can Congress
    play in unlocking them?
        Dr. Sanjayan. Thank you, Congressman. The biggest barrier
    that I see right now is the barrier of supply. So we know the
    forests are there. We know communities are eager to engage. But
    the policies and the financial frameworks are not necessarily
    available for them to participate in the market.
        This is where USAID and other institutions can
    significantly help countries, communities, States, provinces,
    develop the tools and technologies from a policy perspective, a
    science perspective, and also a financial perspective to
    actually engage the market at scale.
        I think that is, literally, the No. 1 stumbling block and
    that's where U.S. leadership and the signal that it would
    create would instantly allow that flow to happen where the
    private sector can invest in forest conservation for the
    benefit of people and nature and, ultimately, our climate as
    well.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Chairman, my time is about to expire. I have several
    more questions but I can keep going. But I'm happy to submit
    them and hope the witnesses might answer them in writing if
    that's better.
        Mr. Connolly. We appreciate that. Thank you so much for
    being with us today, Mr. Levin.
        Mr. Levin. Thank you.
        Mr. Connolly. The chair now recognizes the distinguished
    gentlelady from North Carolina, Ms. Manning, for her 5 minutes
    of questioning. Welcome.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Connolly, and thank you,
    Chairman Meeks, for holding this very important hearing, and
    I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here to share your
    expertise with us today.
        Ms. Bandura, we have seen growing concerns about the risks
    of triggering biosphere tipping points across a range of
    ecosystems around the world and the potential domino effects.
        Could you explain more about this concept and what you see
    as being the tipping point for forests like the Amazon
    experiencing deforestation and droughts?
        Ms. Bandura. Well, there are--sorry. As I mentioned, I'm
    not a climate scientist. But, basically, if we continue, you
    know, deforesting at the rate that we are there's going to be
    a--become a point where the--you know, the rainforest will not
    be able to function as a carbon sink and will emit more carbon
    into the atmosphere, and this also will change, you know, the
    rainfall patterns of the region.
        So I am not sure--you know, I cannot really address other
    rainforests or, you know, what are the--maybe Sanjayan can--he
    is a conservationalist. But this will have also impacts in, you
    know, our economic activities. So it's not just about, you
    know, environmental activity so but economic impacts.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you. Dr. Sanjayan, do you--would you
    like to add something?
        Dr. Sanjayan. Sure, very briefly. So it turns out that the
    Amazon, like, major rainforests generate their own rainfall and
    what that means it's a self-sustaining system, kind of like a
    glass bottle and you have a--like an aquarium, and as you get
    beyond a certain tipping point, its ability to regenerate and
    create that rainfall is fundamentally altered.
        That's something we have only recently learned. And two
    scientists, Dr. Tom Lovejoy, who recently passed away and a big
    champion for the Amazon, really made the public aware of this
    tipping point. And the other is Dr. Johan Rockstrom from the
    Potsdam Institute for Climate Science, who really established
    these ideas of the planetary tipping point.
        Now, if you ask me for a number, I would say it's probably
    around 20 to 25 percent. Once we destroy about 20 to 25 percent
    of a large rainforest like the Amazon, its ability to
    regenerate itself becomes difficult.
        If you live in Montana then you know once a forest
    disappears and it's a grassland, to put it back into a forest
    it's very, very difficult, if not nearly impossible.
        Ms. Manning. So I assume that what we're talking about is
    if we do not act--this adds a sense of urgency to our actions
    in this regard because if we hit that tipping point we cannot
    fix the problem that's been solved--that's been created.
        Dr. Sanjayan. That's absolutely right.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you. Like my colleagues, I have deep
    concerns about climate change, about deforestation, for exactly
    the reasons that you have just described here--about the impact
    on climate change, the impact that climate change is having,
    rather, on the availability of food production, clean water, in
    a variety of countries that can least afford the stresses on
    their populations and one result, as we have discussed, is
    migration away from those areas that put stresses on other
    countries.
        So I am supportive of the all of the above measures that we
    can take to address climate change, including the prevention of
    further deforestation, and AMAZON21, certainly, appears to be
    an important step, even perhaps a leap, in the right direction
    and this is something of huge importance.
        But I would like to ask about how we prevent abuse,
    misdirection, corruption, by either the governments or the
    intended recipients of the funding that could come through
    AMAZON21.
        And you're shaking your head, Ms. Bandura, so perhaps I'm
    in your area and you'd like to comment on this.
        Ms. Bandura. Yes, and this is an important issue, and as I
    referred at the beginning, you know, this is not only about,
    you know, environmental programming but governance and really
    fostering capacity for local governments and groups to really
    look at how the--you know, the money and we have to really look
    at how the money is being spent.
        A lot of the deforestation that is happening, as I
    mentioned at the beginning, there are very good laws to
    preserve areas and there are indigenous groups that, you know,
    live in these preserved areas.
        But there are other groups that are coming in and there's--
    you know, there's no good law enforcement mechanism to really
    prevent these encroachments.
        The other issue is land tenure. There's, you know,
    corruption in there as well. So who gets the access--accessing
    the land in the rain forest. And, of course, you know, a lot of
    the people that are living in these regions also have not
    meaningful economic opportunities and are sometimes exploited
    by powerful groups that, obviously, are, you know, flourishing
    on corrupt activities and illegal activities.
        So I do not think it's only a role for USAID but it's
    working also with local law enforcement agencies and, you know,
    agencies such as Interpol. Because it's not just about, you
    know, the trees. There are a lot of other components happening
    in the rain forest, and I'll stop at that.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you. My time has expired. I would love
    to pursue this further, but I yield back.
        Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Ms. Manning.
        The chair now recognizes the distinguished representative
    from Nevada, Ms. Titus, for her 5 minutes of questioning.
    Welcome.
        Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask Dr.
    Sanjayan about the Mekong Delta, changing locations here for a
    little bit. The Mekong Delta--and these are some pretty
    impressive statistics--spans over 200 million acres. That's,
    roughly, the size of Texas and Arkansas combined.
        It spans China, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and
    Vietnam, and that the heart of the Delta runs over 3,000 miles
    from Tibet to the South China Sea. It accounts for up to 25
    percent of fresh water for people in the area and it's second
    only to the Amazon in biodiversity, home for about 1,200 unique
    freshwater species.
        But there's been research at the University of Nevada and
    at Utah State on deforestation in Cambodia and how rapidly that
    is accelerating. I wonder if you could talk about the impact of
    that deforestation on the Mekong and how that's impacting the
    whole area.
        Did you lose me? I cannot see myself. Am I still there?
        Mr. Connolly. I think your frozen colleague is asking what
    about--I mean, both Mr. Perry and Ms. Titus have asked us about
    other threats in the Mekong Delta in the case of Ms. Titus and
    the Democratic Republic of Congo because of the exploitation of
    cobalt, among other purposes.
        So maybe, Dr. Sanjayan, we might begin with you in terms of
    what about the--start with Mekong Delta but these other major
    rainforest areas that provide so much in terms of flora, fauna,
    drinking water, and serve as important sinks--carbon sinks--for
    the planet? Shouldn't we be worried about those, too?
        Dr. Sanjayan. Absolutely. So it's a great question, and I
    just want to point out one thing that the--this bill has full
    transparency built into it in terms of ensuring that the
    funding gets to the right people in the right way.
        It involves participation of indigenous and local
    communities, not just in the full design of projects, and it
    has strong transparency requirements.
        Now, the Mekong Delta is a place that Conservation
    International has worked in for two decades, and I can tell you
    that it's extraordinarily carbon rich. It truly is one of these
    irreplaceable carbon sinks, if you will.
        But the threats to it are many and deforestation is one
    threat. The other threat is, of course, water, and the third
    one, I would say, would be overfishing. Tonle Sap, for example,
    is--you know, produces more fish than all of the United States
    freshwater fisheries combined.
        So this bill works on one major part. It, clearly is not
    there to deal with every threat out there. However, a major
    reason for water instability in the Mekong Delta is because of
    deforestation and Cambodia, interestingly, is a country poised
    to really open up its carbon markets as a way of protecting
    forests.
        They need those investments and, you know, we are in the
    process of designing projects in Cambodia with very specific
    forest conservation targets in mind.
        So in terms of a place that's important for carbon.
    important for people, but also will benefit from this bill,
    Cambodia and the Mekong Delta would, clearly, be so-called in
    its cross hairs.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Connolly. I think possibly Ms. Titus might followup
    your last point with yes, but often countries'--political
    leadership in countries, local and otherwise, are faced with,
    yes, long term it's in our economic interest to protect this as
    a resource but short term I got to get--you know, my fishing
    villages need to make a living.
        And so I make short term decisions at long-term costs.
    That's the tradeoff, especially in poorer countries, and that's
    a dilemma that faces us all.
        And I think, Ms. Bandura, you touched on that. I mean, lots
    of factors in the Amazon but part of it is endemic poverty that
    drives people to seek a source of revenue that can be
    sustainable, from their point of view, even if it's at the cost
    of the environment.
        Dr. Sanjayan. I mean, the one thing I would mention is that
    this bill would allow financial flows to happen very quickly
    and that's partly because the private sector is eager for
    mechanisms like this in order to participate.
        So the lag time between, you know, developing a project and
    funding actually flowing in these projects would be, you know,
    in my estimation, like, 18 months.
        So that is a reasonable timeframe. It's not many, many
    years later before benefits start flowing. So I think it is a
    good mechanism to deal with this issue that you raised, which
    is people do need to eat and desperate people are put into
    desperate situations where this deforestation becomes their
    last means of survival, and we could stop that fast with an act
    like this.
        Ms. Bandura. Yes, and that's where also, you know, private
    sector innovation and know-how comes into play because, as I
    mentioned at the beginning, a lot of the, you know, jobs that
    are happening in the--you know, in the Amazon are either
    informal in nature or, you know, with very little pay, little
    protections, hazardous.
        Think about a mining in Peru--gold mining in Peru. That
    releases mercury in the water, and so we need to really bring
    in our--I mean, and that's where United States has the--you
    know, the biggest and most innovative private sector.
        You know, it allowed this to happen and so that's, you
    know, one tool that we--you know, we should leverage to really
    provide economic opportunities. We cannot ignore--we cannot
    deny economic opportunities to people. That would not be fair
    or truthful, you know, on our end. So----
        Mr. Connolly. So let me followup on that with you, Ms.
    Bandura. Let's just put it this way. The current leadership in
    the Brazilian government, led by President Bolsonaro, has not
    really developed a reputation for being passionate about
    protecting the Amazon and, in fact, arguably, even downright
    hostile to efforts to protect the Amazon and resentful of
    international concern expressed about the need to protect the
    Amazon.
        Your observations about the current Brazilian government
    and how do we kind of change attitudes there so that got a
    supportive receptive government that sees it as in its interest
    to try to protect this resource and avoid that tipping point we
    were talking about?
        Ms. Bandura. Yes, I mean, so----
        Mr. Connolly. And if you could bring that closer. Thank
    you.
        Ms. Bandura. So--I'm sorry about that.
        As I mentioned, you know, these are sovereign nations and
    we cannot, you know, really force, you know, leaders to change
    their minds.
        But we have some tools and there--I believe, like, Colombia
    is a very good example of what can be done in the Amazon, and
    if, you know, Colombia would be--is a partner of the United
    States and can also be, you know, leading in the Amazon, there
    are initiatives such as the Leticia Pact
        That was an initiative that was signed by Bolsonaro. It
    needs to be operationalized. And, you know, we have carrots and
    sticks. So if we are going to say we're going to implement this
    trust fund, provided that, you know, these conditions are met,
    that's--you know, that's both a carrot and a stick.
        So it's very--it's hard to, you know, persuade but, you
    know, we have some tools to do that and, you know, we'll see.
    But, you know, we cannot just force countries to adopt things.
        And, you know, pressure from, you know, the civil society
    and others, private sector, investors in Brazil and outside can
    also be one way, and OECD accession.
        Brazil wants to become part of the OECD. So that's also a
    tool that, you know, we can use to bring them to more, you
    know, sustainable standards.
        Dr. Sanjayan. I'd just add, Representative Connolly, that,
    you know, Ms. Bandura's report that she has here shows that a
    large number of Brazilians really do support strong
    environmental posturing. Most Brazilians are pro the Amazon.
    They want the Amazon to survive. But there is special interests
    that win out and that's what's happening now.
        There are two ways to work in Brazil even today. One is
    that indigenous peoples in Brazil, in particular, have large
    territorial access--stewardship, guardianship access,
    legislative access to land--and in indigenous lands we have
    found great allies in conservation and it's a significant part
    of the Amazon.
        And the second is that Governors, so one level below the
    Federal system--Governors are very willing within the Brazilian
    system to move legislation forward and protect nature within
    their own State jurisdictions.
        Mr. Connolly. You know, you both implicitly, I think, raise
    a question not easily resolved about how far does sovereign
    control go over what is a global resource.
        So is it my absolute right as a sovereign nation if
    something is entirely within my sovereign territory to destroy
    it, even if it has planetary consequences, and that's an
    unanswerable question at this time.
        But looking toward the future, it seems to me that one of
    our challenges is going to be to create global structures--
    international structures--that do protect assets that go beyond
    my sovereign territory without, you know, compromising or
    surrendering sovereign control.
        But on the other hand, there are some--you know, you do not
    get to destroy the planet because you decide economically I
    want to exploit this unique resource that affects everybody,
    not just me, and how do we address that, you know, from an
    intellectual point of view.
        Do you want to address that, Ms. Bandura?
        Ms. Bandura. Well, I do not know if I can solve that issue
    but----
        Mr. Connolly. I thought you had a solution.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Bandura. It's a complex, you know, challenge. But yes,
    you know, you're right. These are, you know, global commons but
    there are other actors involved. So, you know, China was
    mentioned as well.
        There's a lot of deforestation happening--illegal
    deforestation--in Russia because of China. So how do we deal
    with, you know, that problem. There is also the issue that
    Representative Perry mentioned about mining, and so the climate
    transition has to take into account our mining resources.
        And so I--we need to also engage the private sector and the
    supply chains. That's one way that we could also motivate, you
    know, countries not to deforest or change, you know, the way
    that they source materials and how we sell the materials.
        If the private sector is involved in the supply chain
    sourcing that would be also one way.
        Dr. Sanjayan. Congressman, you know, if you go to New York
    City and go to Central Park and think about how expensive that
    real eState must be right there, and you see all these
    buildings built up right to the edge of Central Park, imagine
    someone trying to grab a bit of Central Park and putting up a
    skyscraper.
        Imagine the hue and cry that you would get in New York and
    around the world and, certainly, around this country, and the
    reason you'll get that is not because it's not valuable. It's
    simply because there is a constituent that will fight for that,
    because it is in the enlightened self-interest of every New
    Yorker to have Central Park protected.
        What AMAZON21 tries to do is to create that enlightened
    self-interest among indigenous communities, local communities,
    and governments to realize that what they have today is going
    to be worth more tomorrow and protecting it is not only in the
    interest of the planet but it's an all of--in their self-
    interest as well, and it provides a financial mechanism to
    incentivize and sustain it over the long run, particularly
    through carbon markets.
        Mr. Connolly. I agree, and I think that's been the failure
    in the past to, you know, find formulas that create economic
    incentives to protect, to proactively cherish and enhance the
    resource at hand as opposed to, you know, economic
    exploitation.
        But it's a bit of a--well, it is a very difficult choice
    when you're talking about serious poverty and you cannot ask
    people to starve to death or forego economic opportunity for
    some greater good that they cannot see or experience, and so
    there have to be economic incentives built in and that's what
    this legislation does.
        Apparently, my time is up. Seeing and hearing no further
    members, I want to thank our panelists so much for an
    enlightening and stimulating conversation. We have got a lot of
    work to do but we're delighted that we have a piece of
    legislation we can act on and we begin somewhere, and this is
    our somewhere.
        So thank you so much for being with us today, and this
    hearing is now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]

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