[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



117th Congress                                  Printed for the use of the
2d Session                Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe



 
                          Demining Ukraine:

                    A Pre-requisite for Recovery



                [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]





                          DECEMBER 8, 2022




                           Briefing of the
            Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
                       ____________________

                          Washington: 2023











            Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
                    234 Ford House Office Building
                         Washington, DC 20515
                             202-225-1901
                          [email protected]
                          http://www.csce.gov
                             @HelsinkiComm



                   Legislative Branch Commissioners

            SENATE			             HOUSE
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland 		  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee Co-Chairman
          Chairman			  ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut		  EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas			  BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina		  RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire		  RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina
TINA SMITH, Minnesota			  GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina		  MARC VEASEY, Texas
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island	  JOE WILSON, South Carolina
ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi


                   Executive Branch Commissioners

                Department of State, to be appointed
               Department of Defense, to be appointed
               Department of Commerce, to be appointed





                            [II]







ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE


    The Helsinki process, formally titled the Conference on Security 
and Cooperation in Europe, traces its origin to the signing of the 
Helsinki Final Act in Finland on August 1, 1975, by the leaders of 33 
European countries, the United States and Canada. As of January 1, 
1995, the Helsinki process was renamed the Organization for Security 
and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).
    The membership of the OSCE has expanded to 57 participating States, 
reflecting the breakup of the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and 
Yugoslavia.
    The OSCE Secretariat is in Vienna, Austria, where weekly meetings 
of the participating States' permanent representatives are held. In 
addition, specialized seminars and meetings are convened in various 
locations. Periodic consultations are held among Senior Officials, 
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fields of military security, economic and environmental cooperation, 
and human rights and humanitarian concerns, the Organization is 
primarily focused on initiatives designed to prevent, manage and 
resolve conflict within and among the participating States. The 
Organization deploys numerous missions and field activities located in 
Southeastern and Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. The 
website of the OSCE is: .


ABOUT THE COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE

    The Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, also known as 
the Helsinki Commission, is an independent U.S. Government commission 
created in 1976 to monitor and encourage compliance by the 
participating States with their OSCE commitments, with a particular 
emphasis on human rights.
    The Commission consists of nine members from the United States 
Senate, nine members from the House of Representatives, and one member 
each from the Departments of State, Defense and Commerce. The positions 
of Chair and Co-Chair rotate between the Senate and House every two 
years, when a new Congress convenes. A professional staff assists the 
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    In fulfilling its mandate, the Commission gathers and disseminates 
relevant information to the U.S. Congress and the public by convening 
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of the Helsinki process and developments in OSCE participating States.
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U.S. policy regarding the OSCE, including through Member and staff 
participation on U.S. Delegations to OSCE meetings. Members of the 
Commission have regular contact with parliamentarians, government 
officials, representatives of non-governmental organizations, and 
private individuals from participating States. The website of the 
Commission is: .



                            [III]







                        Demining Ukraine:

                  A Pre-requisite for Recovery

                           __________

                       December 8, 2022


                                                                     Page
                             COMMISSIONERS


Representative Steve Cohen, from Tennessee, Co-Chairman                2

                               WITNESSES



Michael Tirre, Program Manager for Europe, State Department--
Political-Military Affairs, Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement 
[PM/WRA]                                                               3

Todd Biggs, Vice President for Munitions Response, Tetra Tech          5

Tony Connell, Ukraine Country Director, Swiss Foundation for De-
mining [FSD]                                                           7

                              PARTICIPANTS


Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department of State, Commission on 
Security and Cooperation in Europe                                     1





                                 [IV]






                          Demining Ukraine:

                    A Pre-requisite for Recovery

                           __________
               
                         December 8, 2022





          Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
          
          
                          Washington, DC




    The Briefing Was Held From 11:04 a.m. To 11:54 p.m. via 
videoconference, Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department of State, 
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, presiding.
    Committee Members Present: Representative Steve Cohen [D-TN], Co-
Chairman.
    Committee Staff Present: Demitra Pappas, Senior Advisor, Department 
of State, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe.

    Ms. Pappas: [In progress]--and thank you to our distinguished 
panelists.
    The Helsinki Commission has convened this briefing to spotlight the 
wide-ranging challenges posed by landmines and unexploded ordnance in 
the wake of Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine.
    Our panel will address efforts by the United States and the 
international community to assist Ukraine with the critical task of 
humanitarian demining. These challenges are not entirely new. Even 
before Russia's full-scale invasion in February since Russia's initial 
land grab in 2014, Ukraine had been amongst the most landmine-affected 
countries in the world.
    The United States and the international community had already 
invested in years-long demining efforts in Ukraine's east. Landmines 
and unexploded ordnance had killed and maimed more than 1,100 civilians 
by 2022. Among them, I should note, was an American, Joseph Stone, 
deployed with the OSCE's Special Monitoring Mission.
    Ukraine was ranked fifth in the world for civilian casualties 
caused by landmines and in the top three for anti-vehicle mine 
incidents. When Russia unleashed the largest land war in Europe earlier 
this year, the scale and scope of these challenges increased 
exponentially across Ukraine. Russian forces have littered the country 
with landmines and other explosive munitions in a reprehensible and 
brutal manner.
    By September, Ukraine estimated a hundred and sixty thousand square 
kilometers of its territory was contaminated by mines and unexploded 
ordnance. Current estimates put that figure at more than a quarter of 
Ukraine's territory.
    The situation in areas liberated from Russian occupation as in 
Kharkiv and Kherson and the outskirts of Kyiv last spring is 
particularly acute. In addition to laying mines, Russian forces in 
retreat have intentionally booby trapped homes and civilian 
infrastructure.
    The consequences go well beyond the immediate danger to civilians 
and are far reaching and, potentially, long lasting. Landmines and 
unexploded ordnance impede reclamation of these territories and broader 
reconstruction efforts. About 10 percent of Ukraine's agricultural 
lands have been rendered unserviceable. Ukraine is losing thousands of 
hectares of farmland to mines, which could further constrain its 
critical grain exports to the world.
    As daunting as these challenges may be, they are not 
insurmountable. The United States and international community are 
already hard at work providing demining assistance, training, and 
equipment to Ukraine. The Department of State has allocated $91.5 
million to date toward humanitarian demining efforts in Ukraine.
    Our first panelist will provide an overview of this assistance. I 
am pleased to be joined today by Michael Tirre, program manager for 
Europe in the State Department's Political-Military Affairs Bureau 
Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement, which is spearheading these 
efforts.
    Before I turn the floor to Mr. Tirre, let me note that if you have 
questions for the panelists, please enter them at any time in the WebEx 
Q&A box, not the chat function, and panelists will address them after 
their presentations.
    Oh, before I turn to Mr. Tirre, I note that Representative Cohen, 
our Co-Chairman at the Helsinki Commission, has joined us on WebEx.
    Sir, we are honored, and you are welcome to say a few words if you 
would like.
    Representative Cohen: Are we in? Are we visible and--
    Ms. Pappas: Yes.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you.
    I appreciate your having this briefing. It is a very important 
briefing. We have learned a lot about the mining situations around the 
world from Princess Diana. She turned a lot of people's perspectives 
onto this in Azerbaijan, and we have had the same problems with the 
mining there and the areas under conflict and under controversy with 
the Armenians.
    In Ukraine, it is just another dastardly act of war that the 
Russians have perpetrated and that needs to be dealt with. We need to 
condemn Russia for what they have done. I mean, they tried to destroy 
Ukraine and committed genocide.
    We all today are thankful that Brittney Griner is free. We should 
remember all prisoners of war, including Navalny and Vladimir Kara-
Murza, who are suffering these days in isolation, as well as Mr. Whelan 
of the United States and all prisoners all over.
    With that, I wish everybody the best and look forward to the 
information that we glean from our panel.
    Thank you very much.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Representative Cohen.
    I should note that Co-Chairperson Cohen serves also as the OSCE 
Parliamentary Assembly special representative for political prisoners.
    With that, Mr. Tirre, the floor is yours.
    Mr. Tirre: Thank you for the introduction, Demitra, and for the 
invitation to participate in this briefing. I appreciate how you 
described the existing mine contamination in eastern Ukraine resulting 
from Russia's initial invasion in 2014.
    This is key to understanding today's context because by the time of 
Russia's full-scale invasion in February the government of Ukraine 
already had existing demining expertise, including a mine action law, 
demining authorities, national mine action standards, and, of course, 
field experience.
    Since 2016, the United States has been supporting the government of 
Ukraine's response by advising these authorities, training and 
equipping government demining teams, and also funding international 
NGOs to deploy along the line of contact in Luhansk and Donetsk 
oblasts.
    The humanitarian impact of landmines and unexploded ordnance was 
already severe in eastern Ukraine and, tragically, this has been 
magnified exponentially by Russia's full-scale invasion. One hundred 
and sixty thousand square kilometers is an initial estimate of the land 
that needs to be checked for explosive hazards, based on where fighting 
has occurred in Ukraine and where Russia's troops have deployed. It is 
an area of, roughly, the size of Virginia, Maryland, and Connecticut 
combined.
    From reporting on the ground and statements from Ukrainian 
authorities, we know that Russia's forces have deliberately booby 
trapped objects in people's homes, including children's toys, and even 
the bodies of people killed by the invasion.
    The horrific use of improvised explosive devices by Russia's forces 
is reminiscent of ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria where ISIS terrorists 
sought to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible and made 
people afraid to return home.
    Additionally, international experts estimate that Russia's 
munitions may have dud rates between 10 percent and 30 percent, meaning 
massive amounts of unexploded ordnance will remain in the ground for 
years to come. We expect this to be one of the largest landmine and 
unexploded ordnance challenges since World War II.
    Clearing this explosive contamination is a top priority for the 
government of Ukraine. The lion's share of the demining work is already 
being done by courageous demining and explosive ordnance disposal 
personnel of the State Emergency Service, the national police, the 
State Special Transport Service, and other government of Ukraine 
operators. Since March, these incredibly brave and skilled Ukrainian 
demining and EOD teams have found and destroyed more than 500,000 
explosive hazards.
    As incredible as the government of Ukraine's efforts have already 
been, the sheer magnitude of explosive hazard contamination is 
overwhelming. The $91.5 million in assistance that we are providing 
over the coming year is designed to strengthen and supplement Ukraine's 
national capacity and the recognition that this effort has been and 
always will be led by Ukraine.
    In September, we awarded a $47.6 million task order to Tetra Tech, 
an American firm, to train government of Ukraine demining and EOD teams 
to international standards inside Ukraine and provide them with the 
tools necessary to do their jobs.
    The project also includes the deployment of clearance and risk 
education teams through a Ukrainian NGO called the Ukrainian Deminers 
Association. Ukraine has substantial expertise and our project is 
designed with this in mind, to help bring training to the next level, 
share international best practices, and supply much needed equipment. 
Sadly, Ukrainian operators have experienced several casualties and 
their leadership's message is clear that they urgently need this 
training and equipment.
    This project is unique because it is the only internationally-
funded large-scale demining training program inside Ukraine, whereas 
other assistance programs usually require Ukrainians to leave the 
country.
    It is also open to all government of Ukraine operators, not only 
providing advanced training but also facilitating collaboration and 
experience sharing between them by holding joint courses. Similarly, it 
is designed to be a platform for engagement and coordination among 
other donor countries.
    For example, several countries plan to provide equipment but do not 
have a way to run training courses in Ukraine for those items. We 
intend this project to help fill in such gaps and create a more 
coherent international response.
    Most of the remaining funds from the $91.5 million will surge U.S.-
funded contractor and NGO demining teams to accelerate demining efforts 
in areas identified as high priorities by the government of Ukraine.
    We expect to deploy approximately 100 demining teams by the spring, 
which is a dramatic increase from the 22 teams we were supporting prior 
to the full-scale invasion. Our implementing partners include Tetra 
Tech and the Ukrainian Deminers Association, the Danish Refugee 
Council, the HALO Trust, the Swiss Foundation for De-mining, and Spirit 
of Soccer.
    These teams have different specializations such as survey teams to 
interview communities and find evidence of explosive hazards, manual 
teams to clear minefields and battle areas, and mechanical teams that 
can rapidly demine farmland or remove obstacles like vegetation or 
rubble.
    The teams will also include explicit ordnance risk education teams 
that are critical for teaching civilians how to recognize, avoid, and 
report hazards.
    Currently, most teams are in Kyiv and Chernihiv oblasts but have 
recently expanded to Kharkiv Oblast. For example, our partner at FSD 
who is represented in this event deployed clearance teams to Izyum city 
on November 10. We anticipate that some U.S.-funded teams will deploy 
to liberated areas of Kherson once the security situation allows and 
they are tasked by Ukraine's National Mine Action Authority.
    Finally, we are strengthening the government of Ukraine's 
information management capacity so that they can track contaminated 
areas and prioritize their resources effectively. The Geneva 
International Centre for Humanitarian Demining, or [GICHD], is 
providing technical advisors and consultants to help the demining 
authorities manage their national database, revise national standards 
based on their new experiences, and provide key trainings that improve 
knowledge and skills at a strategic level.
    Ukraine's demining needs are increasing every day. The government 
of Ukraine has more than 200 demining teams currently with more than 
1,000 personnel and plans to expand to 400 teams, or about 2,000 
personnel, in 2023. As Ukrainian armed forces liberate more areas we 
are seeing even heavier contamination and there are not enough teams to 
adequately cover all high priority areas.
    There is a need to continue our support beyond an initial surge to 
help Ukraine tackle this issue successfully and to lay the groundwork 
for broader reconstruction efforts, restoration of farmland, and the 
safe return of displaced persons.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Tirre, for that overview and for your 
efforts to assist Ukraine with this critical task.
    I would like to turn the floor now to our second panelist, Todd 
Biggs, vice president for munitions response at Tetra Tech and program 
manager for the Department of State's Worldwide Destruction Support 
Services.
    Tetra Tech has been working in Ukraine since 2016 and began its 
current Humanitarian Mine Action project on September 30 of this year. 
Mr. Biggs served for 20 years as a U.S. Navy EOD officer before moving 
into humanitarian mine action for the last 15 years, and is a member of 
the International Mine Action Standards Review Board.
    Mr. Biggs is joining us from Kyiv. We may or may not have video. I 
believe we do, for the moment. He will provide an implementer's 
perspective.
    Mr. Biggs, the floor is yours.
    Mr. Biggs: Thank you. Hello, everyone.
    I would like to thank the Commission for holding this briefing and 
allowing us to discuss the ongoing issues of Humanitarian Mine Action 
[HMA] operations here in Ukraine.
    As it was mentioned, I represent Tetra Tech, Inc. It is a U.S.-
based company working with the Department of State's Bureau of 
Political and Military Affairs Office of Weapons Removal and Abatement 
to provide humanitarian mine action services here in Ukraine, and, as 
mentioned, I am calling in from Kyiv.
    Tetra Tech has been working in Ukraine since 2016. This current 
project specific to HMA operations has been on the ground since the 
beginning of October.
    You have heard both of the previous speakers discuss how large of a 
problem unexploded ordnance and landmines are in Ukraine, and I think 
it is also worth mentioning just how large Ukraine is from a land mass 
standpoint.
    If you were to lay Ukraine over the United States and you put the 
eastern edge of Ukraine along the eastern seaboard along the Atlantic 
Ocean, the western border of Ukraine and Poland lies in the state of 
Missouri, and from north to south it goes from the south end of Lake 
Erie all the way down to the south end of Georgia.
    The country is large. Traveling around, moving from location to 
location, is very time consuming and at times can be almost impossible 
with the amount of damage that has been done to bridges, rail lines, 
and other, you know, movement ways, especially in the western third and 
the south of the country.
    Our primary goal here in Ukraine is to assist the government of 
Ukraine in growing their ability to manage and conduct the massive task 
of clearing unexploded ordnance and landmines from Ukraine. We are 
doing this in several ways.
    The first is to establish a joint training facility to allow all 
the government of Ukraine forces to standardize and advance their EOD 
anti-mining training and bring it up to an international mine action 
standard.
    We are trying to coordinate this activity with the Ukraine 
ministries and all of their suborganizations involved in explosive 
ordnance disposal and demining activities. In addition to the training 
facility, we are helping in conducting training assessments and 
equipment needs assessments on each of those different organizations 
involved in mine action.
    This will allow the government of Ukraine and all interested donors 
to evaluate the amount and type of training that is needed as well as 
concurrently the amount of equipment and the type of equipment that is 
needed.
    This needs analysis will allow the Department of State and other 
donors to provide much needed and requested equipment and material to 
the Ukraine government when and where it is needed. With our ongoing 
coordination we can then provide training on how to operate said 
equipment but, more importantly, we can also train how to deploy that 
equipment for clearance activities.
    This training and equipping will allow Ukraine to safely clear and 
use land currently contaminated with explosive ordnance and landmines.
    We know the State Emergency Services Unit [SESU] has trained 
approximately 40 EOD teams, but at this point do not have the equipment 
to deploy those teams. Tetra Tech is currently working with SESU to 
identify what equipment and subsequent training these teams will need 
in order for them to start working.
    This assessment should be completed within a month, which will then 
permit the purchase of the correct equipment for their needs. We 
currently have three risk education and nontechnical survey teams 
deploying into Kharkiv Oblast in the east and also to the Mykolaiv 
Oblast in the south.
    In the coming days these teams will begin to identify areas 
suspected and confirmed of having explosive hazards, which will all 
feed into the Ukraine Mine Action Coordination Center's database. The 
Mine Action Center will then oversee the assignment of clearance tasks 
and resources in accordance with mine action standards.
    Initially, those will be, of course, critical infrastructure, the 
things that are going on every day trying to keep the electrical grid 
up, water infrastructure, bridges and rail systems, hospitals, schools, 
and, of course, critical industrial areas.
    Working with the Ministry of Interior, SESU, the national police, 
the State Special Transport Services, we have seen an incredible level 
of dedication and hard work. They are conducting EOD and demining 
actions daily and are managing to keep the vital services on in most of 
the country.
    They are undermanned. They are under-resourced for the amount of 
work that is currently being asked of them. They do need equipment and 
training to keep up with the level of emergency clearance required now 
due to the ongoing conflict.
    Ukraine forces are responding daily to attacks along the front as 
well as to overnight attacks and to keep the critical infrastructure up 
and running. Once the conflict ends, the work will shift from 
reactionary to stabilization and then into the long-term clearance 
activities. This will require longer-term planning and preparation.
    With the generous funding being provided by the U.S. government and 
all of the other international donors we will be able to help the 
Government of Ukraine not only deal with the ongoing daily emergencies 
but to grow and increase the overall size and ability of their EOD and 
demining services across the country for the long-term clearance needs.
    The problems being faced are very large but, as mentioned earlier, 
are not insurmountable. With the continued help of the United States 
and the entire international community, they can get this done.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Biggs, and I am glad that our comms held 
up.
    Mr. Biggs: Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Pappas: Our third panelist, also joining from Ukraine from 
Chernihiv. Tony Connell is the country director in Ukraine for the 
Swiss Foundation for Mine Action [FSD]. He has been with the foundation 
since 2016 and has been involved in mine action both in the commercial 
and the NGO sectors since 2000.
    He previously served in the New Zealand army for 24 years. Mr. 
Connell will provide an NGO on-the-ground perspective.
    Mr. Connell: Okay. Thank you, Demitra.
    It is a great honor to be able to speak to this Commission and I 
thank you very much for the opportunity to do so.
    As mentioned earlier, FSD has been here in Ukraine since 2016. We 
started off with a very small risk education program and slightly 
expanded it over time, until 2019 when we had two EOD teams, two Non-
Technical Survey [NTS] teams, and two risk education teams.
    Unfortunately, due to a lack of funding, we had to suspend 
operations in 2019 for about 12 months. Then, in early 2020, the Office 
of Weapons Removal and Abatement [WRA] came to the party and provided 
funding for us, which allowed us to start--restart operations. This, 
again, was in the Donbas. We were based in Slavyansk where we had three 
EOD teams, one of them based in Slavyansk itself and the other two were 
in Mariupol. We also had risk education and NTS teams in both 
locations.
    February 24th of this year came along and, unfortunately, we had to 
stop operations, obviously. Our personnel, dispersed throughout the 
country left the Donbas.
    While they were away in different locations they organized amongst 
themselves to get involved in the humanitarian--the deployment of 
humanitarian aid, such as delivering medical supplies, providing fuel 
for the buses taking staff or just taking refugees to Poland, and 
providing equipment for bomb shelters in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. This 
was funded, again, by WRA.
    When the situation started to stabilize, we started to relocate our 
operations from the Donbas to Chernihiv, a city approximately a hundred 
and thirty kilometers north of Kyiv. Chernihiv had been affected quite 
badly in the initial days of the invasion and it was laid siege for 
about six weeks before the Russians withdrew back to the north.
    At this time we started to recruit and train additional staff and 
we now have a total of six EOD teams, three NTS teams, and three risk 
education teams. We also have a mechanical capability with, at the 
moment, one light demining machine, and we are getting a second one 
early next year--a heavy one. We also have, under purchase action, 
excavators and front end loaders to give us a rubble removal capacity.
    We anticipate having full capacity by early 2023--March 2023. A lot 
depends on the weather and the climate.
    As Todd mentioned, the Ukrainian people are incredibly resilient. 
They are incredibly determined to resolve the problem. I have never 
been in a country where the national staff are so determined to get rid 
of the problem.
    Our plans for the future, we want to continue our expansion into 
Kharkiv. We have had two clearance teams--two EOD teams--there rotating 
through for the last month and also risk education and Nontechnical 
Survey Teams.
    In due course, if future funding becomes available we could always 
look at expanding into Kherson or wherever.
    That is pretty much it from FSD. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you, Mr. Connell.
    We are opening the floor now for questions and answers. If you can 
go into the Q&A box you are welcome to submit your questions.
    We have a couple to kick off. Our first question is, could the 
panelists give us an overview of other nongovernmental and/or local 
efforts at demining they are aware of and the extent to which these 
efforts are coordinated with those government programs and those of 
their implementers?
    What coordination mechanisms work well and where might additional 
coordination be helpful? We have seen reports including on Twitter of 
individuals who are demining, and I think that is a reference to that. 
Thank you.
    Whoever would like to take that on is welcome to.
    Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I can maybe kick off on that one.
    Yes, certainly, have seen reports in the media of individuals 
helping on their own initiative as well as crowd sourcing initiatives 
to provide training or equipment. There is a lot of different efforts 
going on. Kind of as the question's hinting at, there is an inherent 
challenge there of, I think, coordinating those and integrating those 
within broader, more coherent kind of assistance mechanisms and 
packages.
    There is, certainly, a risk there that allowed those--that 
assistance would be provided directly to, say, local units or to a 
particular operator and managed at that level but not necessarily be 
tracked at a national level as well.
    Beyond that, I could not speak to the extent to which, you know, 
the national authorities are effectively tracking or not more local 
efforts on the ground. I am sure that's something that is on their 
radar and there is always room for improvement.
    For the second question about what coordination mechanisms work 
well and where additional coordination might be helpful, as well as 
kind of lessons learned from other demining efforts, you know, I think, 
just to--it is worth noting that the Ukrainian kind of mine action 
architecture is complex.
    They have a National Mine Action Authority that is interministerial 
in nature, high level, which kind of set policy for demining efforts 
nationwide, and that is coordinated by the secretariat, which currently 
in times of conflict falls under the Ministry of Defense. Then there is 
also two different mine action centers that are responsible for tasking 
and accrediting operators, conducting quality assurance, quality 
control, and those two mine action centers have kind of overlapping 
mandates under different ministries as well.
    I think we have seen improvement in terms of coordination between 
the different authorities in Ukraine. I mean, speaking frankly, it is 
still a rather complex environment and can sometimes cause some 
confusion about the exact approval mechanisms and that is really what 
our project with the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian 
Demining is trying to help with in terms of effective information 
management and the relationships between the different authorities.
    I should point out, too, that prior to the invasion our office had 
some grants with the OSCE project coordinator in Ukraine that 
originally helped advise on the original establishment of these 
authorities and the national mine action law, and then the effective 
kind of relationships and coordination between them.
    Then I would just say, like, as specific lessons learned it is 
incredibly important that the government takes the lead on this, that 
they prioritize different areas, assign different areas of 
responsibility. Again, this is something that is happening right now in 
Ukraine and there is a lot of discussion on how to integrate demining 
with broader strategies for reconstruction and development, and so 
those discussions are very much underway.
    Then, again, going back to that topic of information management, it 
is very, very important that at a national level the government's 
tracking where demining efforts are currently taking place, which areas 
need to be checked in the future. This avoids situations where, say, 
you need to re-clear a certain area or you have sent the wrong kind of 
asset or resources to a particular area.
    You know, this issue is going to stick around for a decade or 
longer so it is important that the information we collect at this point 
in time is accurate and it can help inform future deployments 
accurately.
    Let me stop there and see if any other panelists have something to 
contribute.
    Mr. Biggs: Hey, Michael, this is Todd.
    I think the one thing I would add in our discussions here locally 
is that the other thing that is happening right now is that here on the 
ground the ministries in the government of Ukraine are still in a 
little bit of a reactionary mode in that they are dealing with 
emergency responses right now daily, and it has not quite gotten to a 
point in the process yet of stabilization even to start thinking of 
long-term clearance yet.
    I think that is something that a lot of people miss a little bit is 
that, you know, the government of Ukraine is still involved in fighting 
a war and I think that is--you know, that is--I do not want to say that 
is a "Problem". It is bigger than that.
    It does lead them to not have a lot of bandwidth to look long term 
until then. Now, once that--once the war ends and peace is settled and 
it gets into that stabilization mode, then, I think, the historical 
things that have been learned over the last 20 years of demining all 
over the world will all flow in and you will have a lot more people 
involved, and I think that will help them take control of that and move 
it along.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
    We have another question and that is, can someone go through step 
by step how demining occurs, for example, from training to detonating 
and removing the mines? You know, Demining 101, if you would.
    Mr. Connell: I can step in and talk about that, if necessary. FSD--
the way we have done it is we recruit from the local population in the 
area in which we are working. It does not require any specialist 
background knowledge or training, although it is helpful to a certain 
extent.
    The initial demining course takes about four to five weeks and that 
includes the use of detectors, recognition of different types of mines, 
excavation drills, first-aid, casualty evacuation drills, and the list 
goes on.
    We then deploy them into the field and our operations teams of 
personnel on which we have an international team leader. We have a 
driver and a translator for him. We then have a team, national staff, 
as deminers, two of which are trained as medics to give immediate first 
aid in the event of a casualty, heaven forbid that happens, and then we 
have a driver for the ambulance vehicle.
    The team will deploy each day. They work a cycle of--[off mic ]--
    Ms. Pappas: Tony, I think we lost your audio. That is unfortunate. 
We will see if he can get back in.
    In the meantime, I am curious what are the most common types of 
landmines that you are finding in Ukraine in terms of the anti-
personnel mines in particular?
    [Pause.]
    Mr. Biggs?
    [No audible response.]
    We seem to be having some comms issues.
    Mr. Biggs: We were--
    Ms. Pappas: Oh, there you are.
    Mr. Biggs: Yes. It jogged off there and it came right back on.
    As far as mines go, they are mostly Russian at this point, as you 
would expect--PMN type personnel mines, OZM-22s-72, sorry--anti-tank 
mines. We have got a whole--TM-62s. Sorry. My technical manager is 
reading off numbers to me.
    To keep it fairly simple, they are mostly, for the most part, anti-
personnel mines and anti-tank landmines, which are very similar in 
nature, just much larger.
    Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I just popped into chat a link to an explosive 
ordnance recognition guide that GICHD has put out that includes many 
different examples of the types of landmines but also unexploded 
ordnance that operators are kind of finding on the ground in Ukraine.
    Ms. Pappas: Another question related to that--are there many 
improvised explosive devices or are we seeing mostly mines and UXO?
    Mr. Biggs: Yes. Mostly at this time we are seeing older type booby 
traps. We are not seeing a lot of large use of IEDs. There is a fine 
line there between which ones are IEDs, which ones are, you know, older 
school booby traps, if you will.
    I will relate this a little bit to Iraq and Syria where ISIS used a 
lot of very technical improvised explosive devices and we are not 
seeing that yet in the country. We are seeing lots of things booby 
trapped in the older style of just, you know, trip wires and things 
like that.
    Ms. Pappas: We have read the stories about those being located in 
civilian homes, which is extremely reprehensible.
    You mentioned in your presentation also the impact of mines on 
critical infrastructure. We are well aware of, you know, news reports 
of drones hitting critical infrastructure.
    Could you detail a little bit more, what the impact of landmines or 
ordnance has been on infrastructure?
    Mr. Biggs: On infrastructure itself, the landmines not as much 
other than on roadways and around bridges and in places of crossing. 
They have landmined lots of roads, places where a bridge is out and you 
would have to go right or left to get to the next area. They then would 
lay landmines to make it even more difficult to go from point A to 
point B where you end up having to backtrack and go miles and hours out 
of the way because of the landmines.
    On the critical infrastructure itself, you are correct. It is 
drones, it is missiles, it is long-range artillery that are taking out, 
you know, major railways. You know, big targets are, you know, internet 
and cell phone towers, electrical--you know, infrastructure of all 
types, and the same with water--water pumping stations, those kind of 
things.
    --All of those. Today, the electricity here in Kyiv was off for--in 
different parts of the city off and on all day as they were trying to 
repair things. As I did say is they are doing an amazing job of getting 
up every morning and repairing what was blown up the night before.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
    Mr. Connell: We are also seeing quite extensive use of cluster 
munitions around the Chernihiv area, and also there was in the Izyum 
area a fair degree of what they call PFM-1s and PFM-2s, which are like 
a butterfly mine. Very, very untidy.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
    I am aware that prior to February, UNDP, the OSCE, and other 
international organizations were working on demining in Ukraine. You 
mentioned the GICHD, the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian 
Demining.
    What role is there for other international actors? It is going to 
be a gargantuan task, and are they on the ground yet?
    Mr. Tirre: I can, maybe, start off with this.
    You know, I think the main challenge as this space continues to get 
more crowded is to find the real value add of new actors and so, you 
know, certainly, I think there is spaces that can still be filled by 
new actors coming in but it might be challenging not to simply 
replicate what others are already doing.
    UNDP is still involved in mine action in Ukraine. They are doing a 
good job kind of coordinating at a local level between the different 
operators and the government of Ukraine. Within the U.N. protection 
cluster system there is a mine action subcluster that the operators and 
government of Ukraine participate in.
    Then UNDP is also getting some funding from international donors to 
provide equipment to the State Emergency Service. The OSCE, the, like, 
successor office to the Project Cordinator Ukraine, I believe, is 
intending to get involved in the mine action space but they are still 
kind of figuring out exactly what that looks like.
    Ms. Pappas: Which countries are donating equipment besides the 
United States?
    Mr. Tirre: Quite a few.
    I have a list going of about--including the United States--about 19 
countries that are--that I know for sure are providing assistance or 
are very likely providing assistance, based on kind of statements from 
the government of Ukraine, another nine countries that are more 
notional or kind of have made public statements saying they are 
exploring providing assistance.
    Then you also have some private foundations and private donors. As 
an example, Bayer Pharmaceuticals, who is the anchor partner for 
USAID's AGRI--Ukraine initiative that is supposed to be helping 
Ukrainian farmers and food security, has provided an expensive demining 
machine to FSD conditioned on my office paying for its deployment under 
our project with FSD. You also get situations like that where private 
companies or foundations are contributing as well.
    Then most of the donors are European so you get kind of the U.K., 
Germany, Switzerland, some Nordic countries, Estonia, Latvia, 
Lithuania, Sweden, and then some kind of not unconventional donors but 
ones that you might not necessarily expect. For example, Colombia has 
expressed interest in deploying deminers or helping share expertise, 
Croatia. Japan is very heavily involved providing assistance to the 
SES, and also Cambodia as well kind of partnering with Japan.
    There is a lot of very wide-ranging, I think, international 
interest in helping Ukraine on this issue. That is all good. It also, 
poses a challenge in terms of standardization and interoperability of 
some of this equipment coming into Ukraine and the training.
    Last week there was a Ukraine donors coordination workshop in 
Geneva well attended by the government of Ukraine, international 
donors, some of the operators working already in country, and there was 
a lot of discussion about how to kind of coalesce international 
training and equipment efforts around the U.S.-led effort with Tetra 
Tech because as a matter of scale and just the kind of presence of 
Tetra Tech monitors and liaison officers have Ukraine, we can provide a 
lot of that information and analysis on what makes sense to provide the 
Ukrainians, what kind of gaps there are still in--country.
    Ms. Pappas: Are there lessons learned--you mentioned Colombia and 
Cambodia--from major demining efforts elsewhere and also in Ukraine, 
you know, prior to the current war that will help us ensure the best 
outcomes for Ukraine?
    Mr. Tirre: I might kick off on this and then, of course, I know 
Todd and Tony would have thoughts as well, and Todd kind of mentioned 
this a little bit, that the government of Ukraine right now is focused 
on that initial emergency response and there is kind of an 
international principle for mine action called "Land Release" which is 
where you have an integrated process of risk reduction and it means 
that you save the most expensive interventions or time-consuming 
interventions where there is actually evidence of contamination.
    Eventually, as a medium or longer-term effort, it will be important 
to have most resources focused on that land release process, which is 
where you can return land to productive use that never actually had any 
evidence of contamination or further kind of check areas that are 
suspected and really narrowed down to specific polygons on a map for 
where you deploy the demining teams and mechanical assets.
    In other countries we have encountered some hesitancy to do this 
risk reduction approach, which is unfortunate because it means that a 
lot of time is spent clearing areas that really never even had evidence 
of contamination in them.
    This is a longer-term an effort? Definitely, Ukraine should be 
moving towards this. They already--they are already well aware of the 
process and have received some training on it previously, including 
under WRA funding. It is not brand new to them.
    Ms. Pappas: Mr. Connell, Mr. Biggs, and I know you have had many 
years of experience in humanitarian demining. Are there particular 
lessons that can be applied to Ukraine?
    Mr. Biggs: I do believe there are, especially at this early stage. 
Like I said, you know, they are still emergency reacting but they are 
being very open to suggestions on preparing now to plan, going forward 
and, you know, Michael had said earlier one of the most important 
things is to get the government of the country you are in to buy into 
and lead the plan. That is one thing that we have seen here is they 
definitely want to be in the lead. They want to--you know, they want to 
fix the problem. They do not want to just rely on others coming in here 
and doing it.
    They--you know, they want our help. They want our guidance. You 
know, they are asking good questions and they are laying out that plan, 
and I think for me, personally, from, you know, the last couple of 
conflicts that we have been involved in after they were over, that did 
not necessarily happen up front.
    Even now sometimes in Iraq it is not super clear. You will end up 
with it not being planned and tracked well where the same area may get 
cleared two or three times because it is just not being managed well by 
the country.
    I think those kind of things at this stage or the most important is 
them being open to that, taking that lead, and then learning. For me, I 
think, that is the biggest one. There is always technical lessons 
learned and, as an industry, we do a pretty good job of kind of sharing 
those.
    From a bigger picture for the government of Ukraine, I think taking 
on that responsibility to own it and then learning and moving forward 
is important.
    Mr. Connell: I agree with what Todd said a hundred percent.
    Ms. Pappas: Finally, my last question--$91.5 million from the 
Department of State is quite substantial, but is there a ballpark 
figure as to how much it will cost to remove mines and unexploded 
ordnance from Ukraine, whether on the part of the government of Ukraine 
or any other source?
    Mr. Tirre: Demitra, I could jump in on that one.
    One of the--it is very hard to accurately estimate it at this point 
in time, right, because there is no, like, national survey that is been 
conducted. The government of Ukraine can not access, you know, all 
areas of its territory, of course, to conduct such a survey.
    The World Bank's rapid damage needs assessment that was released in 
May, I believe, or June, estimated that it would cost up to $73 billion 
to demine all the country, lasting several decades.
    How much it will actually cost in principle or how long it will 
actually take it is impossible to say at this point. They did have, 
like, a quantitative means of coming up with that figure and it is not 
entirely unreasonable, you know, based on the kind of estimates that 
other organizations, think tanks, have come out with in countries in 
Southeast Asia, for example, putting the cost of demining all the 
territory in the billions of dollars figure.
    Ms. Pappas: Thank you.
    With that, I thank Tony and Todd as well, and stay safe in Ukraine.
    For more information on mine action, I would highly recommend the 
Department of State's Political-Military Affairs Bureau's annual 
publication ``To Walk the Earth Safely.''
    Much more, as we just heard, will be needed for Ukrainians to be 
able to walk their lands safely. I am confident the United States and 
international community will continue to stand with Ukraine to ensure 
that they can do so.
    Thank you for joining us today.
    [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the briefing ended.]

                           [all]





  

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