[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   MAKING CONGRESS WORK BETTER FOR THE 
                 AMERICAN PEOPLE: A RECOMMENDATION STA-
                 TUS REPORT

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                        SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE 
                        MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                                  OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            JANUARY 20, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-14

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Select Committee on the Modernization of 
                                Congress
                                
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                                


                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-606                    WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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           SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                    DEREK KILMER, Washington, Chair

 ZOE LOFGREN, California              WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina,
 EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri             Vice Chair
 ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BOB LATTA, Ohio
 DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota             RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois
 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia             DAVE JOYCE, Ohio
                                      GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
                                      BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas

                            COMMITTEE STAFF

                     Yuri Beckelman, Staff Director
                 Derek Harley, Republican Staff Director
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Chairman Derek Kilmer
    Oral Statement...............................................     1
Vice Chairman William Timmons
    Oral Statement...............................................     2

                               WITNESSES

Mr. J. Brett Blanton, Architect of the Capitol
    Written Statement............................................     4
The Honorable Cheryl Johnson, Clerk of the House of 
    Representatives
    Oral Statement...............................................    10
    Written Statement............................................    12
Ms. Catherine Szpindor, Chief Administrative Officer, House of 
    Representatives
    Oral Statement...............................................    19
    Written Statement............................................    21
    Discussion...................................................    33

 
 MAKING CONGRESS WORK BETTER FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE: A RECOMMENDATION 
                             STATUS REPORT

                              ----------                              


                       Thursday, January 20, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
                            Select Committee on the
                                 Modernization of Congress,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:02 a.m., via 
Zoom, Hon. Derek Kilmer [chairman of the committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Kilmer, Perlmutter, Phillips, 
Williams, Timmons, Latta, and Joyce.
    The Chairman. I will bang the virtual gavel, and the 
committee will come to order.
    Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any time.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.
    First off, I just want to wish everyone a happy new year 
and Representative Phillips a happy birthday. We apologize for 
the early morning singing.
    This is our first hearing of 2022, and what better way to 
kick things off than with a look at how the committee's 
recommendations are actually making Congress work better for 
the American people.
    Our implementing partners have done an amazing job of 
putting the committee's ideas into action and making sure that 
our hard work lives well beyond our tenure. That is important 
and so central to the mission of this committee.
    I say this because change isn't possible without action. We 
can talk about fixing Congress and come up with great ideas 
until we are blue in the face. That is the easy part. The hard 
part is figuring out how to bring those great ideas to life. 
And it definitely takes a village. And I am so grateful for the 
tenacity and creativity that our partners bring to the table. 
We could not do this important work without them.
    And I also want to just take a moment to acknowledge the 
groundbreaking work this committee has done not only to pass 
recommendations but to ensure that our recommendations are 
implemented. In assigning these responsibilities equal weight, 
the committee, according to the Congressional Research Service, 
might very well be the premier example of a reform committee 
that managed to both recommend and implement during its tenure.
    We should all be proud of that. And by ``all,'' I mean this 
committee's members and its staff as well as our implementing 
partners and their staff. Listen, Congress can be a tough place 
to get things done, but I think we are proving that it is 
possible.
    To date, the committee's passed a total of 142 
recommendations to make Congress a more efficient and effective 
institution. Over 60 percent of the 97 recommendations passed 
in the 116th Congress have been implemented or have seen 
meaningful action toward implementation. Twenty-four have been 
fully implemented, and 15 more are nearing full implementation.
    That is a tremendous accomplishment, and we are just 
getting started. There is so much work currently underway on a 
bunch of new projects to get off the ground. And I am really 
looking forward to hearing from our witnesses today about the 
great work they have done and have planned.
    I also want to hear about how the committee can support 
your work and any modernization ideas you have that we haven't 
already thrown at you.
    This is a little tricky in a virtual format, but we are 
going to try to use the committee rules we adopted last year 
that give us some more flexibility in the Q&A portion of a 
hearing. Our goal is to encourage thoughtful discussion and the 
civil exchange of ideas and opinions.
    So, in accordance with clause 2(j) of House rule XI, we 
will allow up to 30 minutes of extended questioning per 
witness. And, without objection, time will not be strictly 
segregated between the witnesses, which will allow for extended 
back-and-forth exchanges between members and witnesses.
    Vice Chair Timmons and I will manage the time to ensure 
that every member has equal opportunity to participate. Any 
member who wishes to speak should just raise their virtual 
hand, and either Vice Chair Timmons or I will make sure you can 
jump in.
    Additionally, members who wish to claim their individual 5 
minutes to question each witness pursuant to clause 2(j)(2) of 
rule XI will be permitted to do so following the period of 
extended questioning.
    Okay. I would like to now invite Vice Chair Timmons to 
share some opening remarks as well.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to thank everybody for joining us for the 
first hearing of 2022. And I want to thank our witnesses for 
being here to provide an update on their progress in 
implementing this committee's previous recommendations.
    In my view, our hearing today has two purposes: first, to 
give our witnesses, our partners in implementation, an 
opportunity to discuss the good work that is being done to 
improve the House and help us better serve our constituents; 
second, to hear about the recommendations that still need some 
attention, to identify obstacles, and to learn how we can work 
with you to begin to move those recommendations forward.
    It is important to highlight here that our committee 
doesn't make recommendations merely for the purpose of building 
a historical record. Rather, we are here to make actual change 
to improve how Congress works. And we can do that by following 
up on the recommendations we have made and by doing what we can 
to ensure that they are implemented.
    Indeed, this has been one of the distinguishing aspects of 
this select committee, and I believe it is an advantage that 
the committee's extension through the entirety of this Congress 
has afforded us. I give the chairman and our fellow committee 
members credit for making implementation a priority as we have 
continued our other work.
    I also want to say that, while we have seen some 
implementation success thus far, that does not mean it is time 
to rest. The committee is authorized for 1 more year, and we 
intend to run through the finish line. There is much left to do 
to make Congress work better for the American people.
    In that vein, we have been discussing what the committee's 
agenda for this year, our final year, will look like, and I am 
also looking forward to learning today if our witnesses have 
any ideas for other recommendations and topics that we might 
consider as the committee moves forward.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thanks, Vice Chair Timmons.
    I am pleased to welcome our witnesses who are here to 
provide status updates on the select committee's 
recommendations.
    Before introducing our witnesses, I just want to quickly 
acknowledge that Brett Blanton, the Architect of the Capitol, 
was unable to join us after some last-minute committee 
scheduling hurdles. We tried to move this committee meeting up 
as a consequence of votes. You all have the written testimony 
that he submitted, and that will be part of the record for this 
hearing as well.
    [The statement of Mr. Blanton follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Witnesses are reminded that your written 
statements will be made part of the record.
    Our first witness is Cheryl Johnson. Ms. Johnson is the 
Clerk of the House, a role she has held since 2019. Previously, 
she served as the director of the Smithsonian's Office of 
Governmental Relations.
    Ms. Johnson has had a long career on Capitol Hill, having 
served in numerous offices for nearly 20 years, including as 
chief education and investigative counsel for the House 
Committee on Education and the Workforce and as director and 
counsel for the Committee on House Administration's 
Subcommittee on Libraries and Memorials.
    She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in journalism and mass 
communication from the University of Iowa and a Juris Doctorate 
from Howard University.
    Ms. Johnson, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENTS OF CHERYL L. JOHNSON, ON BEHALF OF THE OFFICE OF THE 
CLERK OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES; AND CATHERINE SZPINDOR, 
  ON BEHALF OF THE OFFICE OF THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER

                 STATEMENT OF CHERYL L. JOHNSON

    Ms. Johnson. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Kilmer, Vice 
Chair Timmons, and members of the committee. Thank you for 
inviting me to testify.
    The Office of the Clerk pursues numerous and diverse goals 
and priorities. Primary is supporting the day-to-day operations 
of the House. I have submitted my written testimony, and I will 
highlight some of it now.
    To start, one of the recommendations made by this committee 
has been implemented already. With this Congress, the House 
rules continued the policy adopted last Congress that allows 
committees to electronically submit committee reports and 
related material electronically. Clerk staff implemented and 
maintain a secure, email-based solution. This change in process 
was welcomed and has had no negative impact.
    Related to the electronic submission of committee reports 
is the electronic submission of bills and resolutions. Members 
and staff can do this via the eHopper, a secure, email-based 
alternative to the historic wooden box on the House floor. The 
eHopper is now the House's primary way of introducing bills.
    Currently, my staff is working to deliver an improved 
eHopper experience for Members and their staff. This updated 
solution will meet the needs of the bill clerks as they process 
an increasing number of bills, while improving the user 
experience for Members and staff.
    As the committee is aware, my staff, along with the Office 
of Legislative Counsel and contractors, continue to build a 
suite of software programs that will create comparisons between 
legislative texts. Understanding legislative text changes is 
critical to making decisions on pending legislation.
    As part of our pilot program, more than 160 individuals 
from across the House committees have access to the software. 
Their collective feedback about the system's usability, 
learnability, and accuracy of the system is positive and 
helpful.
    Currently, the project team is working on operational tasks 
related to House-wide deployment, including migrating the 
application to a cloud environment. We are looking forward to 
delivering the Comparative Print suite House-wide pending the 
completion of the migration to the cloud and the required 
security audits.
    A critical but often dry topic to discuss is standard-
setting. However, it is a delight to know that a small, 
dedicated group of staff from my office, the Senate Secretary 
Office, GPO, and the Library of Congress and others are doing 
just that. The United States Legislative Markup standard will 
allow for a more modern production and exchange of our 
congressional legislative documents.
    This standardization work is important and a required 
foundation for modernizing the lawmaking process. We value this 
committee's continued support of this project.
    Additionally, my written testimony mentions the work we are 
doing around the lobby disclosure system. Given the system's 
age, we recommend that the system be redesigned and built anew. 
A contemporary system will improve the user experience, provide 
more efficient processing, and provide strategies for 
maintaining a single account for lobbyists regardless of a job 
or name change.
    In addition to the work I have already mentioned, Clerk 
staff are researching two potential projects that impact the 
committees: a central location to share committee vote data and 
the creation of a common scheduling tool for committees.
    To assist in our analysis and scoping of this work, we are 
working to release two RFIs, requests for information, for the 
purpose of gathering information and investigating possible 
solutions, and we expect that the RFIs will be released later 
this month.
    Finally, I want to lend my support to other recommendations 
that this committee has made--namely, the recommendations to 
improve staff recruitment, diversity, retention, compensation 
and benefits, and to improve accessibility. I fully support 
these recommendations.
    Thank you again for this opportunity to speak before the 
committee, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The statement of Ms. Johnson follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
    Our next and final witness is Catherine Szpindor, the Chief 
Administrative Officer for the House. She has served in this 
role since 2020. Previously, she served as the Chief 
Information Officer for the House. She joined the House in 2011 
as the Director of Enterprise Applications and was promoted to 
Deputy CIO before becoming CIO.
    Prior to working for the House, she was the vice president 
of IT for Thomas Nelson Community College. She holds a Master 
of Science degree in information systems from Mercer University 
and a Certificate in Strategy and Innovation from the 
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
    Ms. Szpindor, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF CATHERINE SZPINDOR

    Ms. Szpindor. Thank you. I want to thank Chairman Kilmer, 
Vice Chairman Timmons, and members of the Select Committee on 
the Modernization of Congress.
    Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the progress that 
the Office of the Chief Administrative Officer has made in 
implementing recommendations made by the select committee. I am 
pleased to report that the CAO has made significant progress on 
many of the recommendations of the select committee, and I will 
highlight some of our efforts today.
    On August 9, 2021, the CAO officially launched the House 
Human Resources Hub, a one-stop shop of human resources best 
practices. The site now contains over 90 resources, tools, and 
other references for employees who are responsible for hiring, 
developing, and retaining Hill staff. The H.R. Hub resources 
are designed to be used as best practices, tips, and tools, and 
they provide a solid foundation that offices are encouraged to 
utilize, adapt, and customize to meet their unique needs.
    Our new staff training program called ``CAO Coach'' was 
launched in June 2021, and the response has been overwhelmingly 
positive. CAO Coach aims to train staff to do their jobs in a 
way that is relevant, efficient, and dynamic.
    To date, we have hired four coaches, two experienced former 
chiefs of staff, and two experienced former district directors, 
and in the coming months, we plan to add two legislative 
directors.
    The coaches have hosted highly attended programs featuring 
their colleagues as panelists. They are creating one-on-one 
video series for every job position in a House office--that is 
significant progress--and hosting staff networking events, 
helping to facilitate retreats, and providing customized 
trainings at the request of Member offices.
    The coaches have had more than 485 confidential sessions 
with individual staffers on topics such as managing office 
budgets and staff, to approaching difficult casework, and to 
how to introduce a bill.
    The CAO is implementing the select committee's 
recommendation to create a Congressional Leadership Academy to 
offer training specifically for Members. As we prepare to roll 
out this new program, the CAO is currently hiring and training 
a diverse team of world-class leadership consultants that will 
work with the Members on the leadership, management, and 
resiliency skills necessary in our challenging and dynamic 
environment.
    To address the select committee's recommendation to expand 
the use of digital signatures for a majority of House business, 
CAO teams have made significant progress while launching Quill, 
the electronic signature system for congressional group 
letters, and rolling out electronic signatures for constituent 
casework forms, currently used on 265 Member office websites, 
as well as a digital privacy release form for IRS-related 
casework.
    Additionally, we just initiated a project to modernize and 
simplify administrative forms requiring Member signatures, such 
as the Payroll Authorization Form and the Student Loan 
Repayment Program Enrollment Form.
    The select committee recommended we improve Member access 
to innovative technology tools that enhance offices' 
operations. In response, the CAO is building a House digital 
service team to, one, identify and deliver solutions that 
improve on Member offices' most significant challenges; two, 
bring ideas and methodologies from the private sector into 
spaces within the House that have more freedom to experiment 
and iterate; three, leverage modern development tools to 
rapidly prototype and build production-grade software and to 
deliver better products and services to the House.
    The efforts of the select committee to further 
modernization for the House are tremendous and commendable. The 
CAO is making substantial progress on these modernization 
efforts. To make the most use of funds established for these 
initiatives, we must carefully balance all requests and 
recommendations that we receive to ensure we provide the best 
services possible with the funding allocated to us.
    I am honored that I and my employees--and the employees are 
very significant in their contribution and their desire to work 
on these recommendations, and we can play a critical role in 
implementing recommendations established by the select 
committee.
    I want to thank the members and staff of the committee for 
your support. We look forward to a continued and constructive 
relationship. Thank you.
    [The statement of Ms. Szpindor follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thanks so much to you both for your 
testimony.
    I want to now recognize both myself and Vice Chair Timmons 
to begin a period of extended questioning of the witnesses. Any 
member who wishes to speak or ask a question can just raise 
their virtual hand.
    Ms. Szpindor, I was hoping to just start with you. 
Specifically, our committee is, I think, really double-clicked 
on some of the issues related to staffing, just recognizing how 
important the staff of the institution is to the function of 
the institution. There are a few areas where I just was hoping 
we could get a bit of an update.
    There was a recent staff capacity report. The House OIG 
advocated for raising the staff cap to 25 from 18 full-time 
employees as a short-term solution and then removing the cap 
altogether as a long-term solution. I was just hoping for your 
comment on those recommendations and if you can tell us what 
you think would be necessary to implement changes like that.
    Ms. Szpindor. Well, we have spent some time reviewing the 
report from the OIG and talking with them, and we think it was, 
quite frankly, a very excellent report that they provided.
    We generally support their conclusions that--however, there 
are costs that I think everyone needs to be aware of, such as 
benefits and services, that are not covered by the MRAs. So I 
think some reasonable cap, probably around the 25-person cap 
that they were recommending, is a good number to start with.
    To implement, of course, requires planning. And the first 
point is, the current staff cap is set in statute, so, of 
course, we would have to make sure that we take care of that 
change.
    And then what we would like to do is work with the 
committee to make sure that we are identifying the costs that 
would be requested for services and staff. Right now, those 
services and cost for benefits is not covered within the MRA, 
and that has been running, currently, approximately about 40 
percent of the current cost of salary.
    So those are things that we are going to need to look into. 
They are not anything that we cannot do, but just to make you 
aware that there are some things that we have determined that 
we are going to need to work with you on and work with the 
committee to make this happen.
    The Chairman. Sticking on the theme of staff retention, I 
was hoping for an update on just two specific recommendations 
the committee made. We have made a host of recommendations 
related to expanding the tuition assistance program. And then 
you mentioned in your testimony the Staff Academy.
    Ms. Szpindor. Yes.
    The Chairman. And, certainly, opportunities for 
professional development can be part of retention.
    One of our recommendations in the last Congress was for the 
creation of certification documents so individual staff 
positions, through the Congressional Staff Academy, you could, 
in essence, validate your continued training and get certified 
and kind of work your way up a certification ladder.
    Can you give us just an update on both where things are 
with the certification within the Staff Academy and then the 
expansion of tuition assistance?
    Ms. Szpindor. Certainly.
    As far as our staff--let's talk about the Staff Academy 
certifications first. As far as--we do have some courses that 
are certified and we provide certifications for them. We are 
looking at other types of courses, and will continue to look, 
by which we can do that. We are looking, as I said, at 
developing classes right now for different staff to take based 
on their particular position within a Member office.
    We believe, if we build that out, not only just with the 
coach program that we are working on but also with our Staff 
Academy videos, instructor-led training, and others, that we 
will have a very good package of training that someone can 
take.
    All of that is maintained within our system where we track 
our training, and anyone can go and get a complete listing of 
all the courses that they have completed successfully.
    We are going to have to work at defining what is a required 
certification for a particular position within the House. And I 
think that is something we are going to have to work on with 
you to determine what are the qualifications for any positions 
that would determine that they are certified.
    I think that another question that was asked at one point 
and some discussions we have had with the committee is around 
tuition assistance as well. And money would need to be 
appropriated, of course, for that, because usually some--it can 
be anywhere between $2 million to $6 million annually that 
could be allotted for tuition assistance. But we are open to 
work with you on the tuition assistance program.
    The Chairman. Okay. I am tempted to ask a followup on that, 
but I want to make----
    Ms. Szpindor. Please.
    The Chairman. [continuing].--Sure to give other members 
time.
    Ms. Szpindor. That is fine.
    The Chairman. One thing I will--and we can take it----
    Mr. Timmons. Go ahead, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. [continuing].--We can take it offline. I 
guess I am just wondering, that is not necessarily so, is it?
    Because, currently, there are offices that don't fully tap 
the tuition assistance program as it is currently constructed, 
right, where you are basically paying off people's loans. You 
know, I think the idea of this committee is to give folks, kind 
of, front-end help if they are--you know, if I have an MLA who 
wants to get a master's degree in national security, I could 
use part of that allotment and help them sort of pay the 
tuition in real-time rather than help do loan repayment on the 
back end.
    I would love to see more funding appropriated to that. But 
I am just wondering, is that necessarily so? Couldn't an office 
choose to--if we just changed the rules, couldn't an office use 
that allocation for that purpose?
    Ms. Szpindor. We think that, if we work through House 
Admin, there are changes that are possible, yes.
    The Chairman. Perfect.
    Vice Chair Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    During Ms. Szpindor's testimony, I couldn't help but 
remember when I was an intern on the Hill and people would 
bring the letters around and you had the big auto-pen machine, 
and, inevitably, you never put the signature exactly where you 
wanted it, and it was always very stressful.
    So the interns and staff assistants these days will not 
ever appreciate what it was like to be the last signature on a 
letter, now that we have electronic signatures. I just--that 
struck me.
    I want to ask about schedules, strangely enough.
    Ms. Johnson, one of the biggest challenges to the workflow 
in Congress are the scheduling conflicts created by overlapping 
committee meeting times. In the 116th Congress, the committee 
recommended the creation of a committee calendar portal to help 
reduce the number of conflicts.
    Could you talk about what work has been done to implement 
that recommendation? And have you come across any challenges as 
this tool is being developed?
    Ms. Johnson. As I mentioned in my oral statement and is 
expanded on in my written statement, we are looking to put out 
a request for information to work with an outside vendor to sit 
down with us and see what type of software we can develop for 
this. So we have not, as of yet, fully investigated all of the 
information that we need for this.
    Personally, I was struck by, I mean, just even today's 
hearing, the fact that we had to change it to accommodate the 
votes that were going on on the floor today. So that certainly 
will be one of the matters that the vendor takes into 
consideration, how reactive we are to what goes on on a daily 
basis as Congress is constantly in flux.
    Mr. Timmons. I think we all appreciate that. Is this 
something you think we could get done this year, or is that 
going to be a challenge?
    Ms. Johnson. I would think--I don't know how to answer 
that, in that we are going, at the end of this month, just to 
get a request for information. That is not even a request for a 
contractor. So information is just coming up with a design. So 
the first step would be trying to design such a system, and 
then the second step would be development. And, with everything 
that we do in the House, accuracy and security is paramount.
    So we would like to strive towards this year, but we also 
have a number of other projects, and that is always the 
concern. With the number of recommendations that we are working 
on, where is the priority? Because, in terms of our project 
team, we only have one project team, and we have multiple 
projects. So that one project team is working on the 
Comparative Print suite, the enhanced eHopper, and at the same 
time tending to day-to-day operations.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. No, I hear you, and I know that we have 
made a lot of recommendations. I think that the schedule--
between Congresses is always the best time to try to make 
changes to these conversations, and having that resource by the 
end of year, I think, would be very helpful. But we can talk 
about that more later.
    I have one more question, again, Ms. Johnson: the 
committee's recommendation on a committee vote database. You 
mentioned the disparate systems and applications in use across 
committees and that careful consideration needs to be made as 
you implement that recommendation to ensure that we are 
improving workflow and transparency without causing unintended 
harm.
    Can you expand on that? What are the challenges that we are 
facing with that recommendation?
    Ms. Johnson. Again, each committee certainly has the 
discretion to design its voting system as it desires. There is 
no standardized process, as it is on the floor.
    On the floor, as you know, votes are available--within 15 
minutes after the vote, you can go to the Clerk's website and 
pull up how a Member voted. With the committee, it is a little 
more challenging. The committee vote process may be open a lot 
longer, or there could be so many votes, there might--you know, 
a defense committee hearing may have 15 votes, or Veterans' 
Affairs.
    So, given the number of votes, given the varied committee 
process of votes, those are some of the challenges.
    Mr. Timmons. Would you think that we should standardize 
that across committees and remove their ability to not have the 
same platform and application? Or----
    Ms. Johnson. Well, it would certainly help. I mean, 
standardization--there are tradeoffs. Standardization certainly 
gets us quicker to more transparency. But, then, committees are 
unique. So we really have to--you all should discuss what it is 
that you are willing to give up for the benefit of 
transparency.
    But I want to be clear: We don't take a position here in 
the Clerk's Office. You make the decision, you provide us the 
reasonable time and sufficient resources, and we will certainly 
make certain that it is developed and implemented, and we will 
do so with very high-quality standards.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. I really appreciate that. Thank you.
    I think that is something we should look into, Mr. 
Chairman, just creating a portal, a platform that everyone can 
use. It can be a versatile platform that meets all the 
different committees' needs, but standardization, I think, 
would go a long way.
    Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thanks, Vice Chair Timmons.
    Mr. Latta.
    And just a reminder to members: If you have a question, 
feel free to raise your virtual hand if you want to get in on 
this conversation.
    Mr. Latta. Well, thanks very much, Chairman and Vice Chair, 
for today's hearing.
    And to our witnesses, thanks very much for being with us.
    My other life down here--I am the ranker on 
Telecommunications and Energy and Commerce. I am just curious, 
with everything that we are doing electronically today, what 
are we doing in both of your spheres out there when it comes to 
making sure that we are cyber-secure out there?
    Ms. Szpindor. Is that for me----
    Mr. Latta. For both of you.
    Ms. Szpindor [continuing]. Or for either one of us?
    Mr. Latta. Right. For both of you.
    Ms. Szpindor. And I am sorry. I didn't hear the question 
clearly. Could you please----
    Mr. Latta. Yeah.
    Ms. Szpindor [continuing]. Repeat it?
    Mr. Latta. Again, with everything that we are doing 
electronically today, and, you know, again, we are not pushing 
as much paper, you know, we are trying to reduce that for your 
office and the Clerk's Office, what are you doing to make sure 
on the cyber side--because, again, everything that we talk 
about today is how do we protect everything? Because, all of a 
sudden, all you have to do is have one attack and, all of a 
sudden, then we are really shut down. So what are we doing out 
there to protect ourselves?
    Ms. Szpindor. Well, our cybersecurity team is working--for 
everything that we roll out, for all the technology we have, 
they do assessments on all of our systems to make sure that 
they do meet cybersecurity requirements, that they are behind 
the proper firewalls, that they have the proper review and 
auditing and analysis that they require on an ongoing basis.
    We have 7-by-24 support for our cybersecurity team by those 
who are monitoring to make sure there are not any unusual 
circumstances that are occurring.
    We are currently under a review by KPMG of all of our 
cybersecurity processes, including staffing and policies, 
procedures that we are doing. And we have had them come in and 
do a review several years ago. We are doing it again. We want 
to make sure that there is nothing that we need to be including 
that we are not.
    Mr. Latta. Madam Clerk?
    Ms. Johnson. We use many of the systems and procedures that 
Catherine, the CAO, just mentioned. Cybersecurity is one of 
those areas where there is a lot of collaboration between the 
Clerk's Office and the CAO's Office.
    I would also like to point out, with many of our systems, 
they are closed systems, meaning they are one-way. One of the 
examples I can give you is your voting card. Your voting card 
is an internal system, and that voting card could only be used 
to vote.
    There was a proposal at one point, not by this committee, 
but there was a proposal at one point that the voting card 
might also be used as a security card to enter certain areas. 
And the Clerk's Office was completely against that, because we 
only want that voting card to have one dedicated purpose, to 
make certain that the vote is secure at all times.
    But it is also exercised with most of our electronic 
functions--checking and rechecking and rechecking, as Catherine 
mentioned.
    Mr. Latta. Madam Clerk, let me follow up with another 
question. You know, as we always want to make sure things are 
flowing on the floor and keeping things moving, do you have 
suggestions on what we could do to make, you know, floor time 
the best time that we utilize? Any recommendations?
    Ms. Johnson. I--we----
    Mr. Latta. Not to put you on the spot.
    Mr. Johnson. I mean, personally, I just think we have come 
a long way with the--you know, it is a little difficult to 
answer because we are in COVID now, and so votes tend to last 
longer because you are trying to do some type of distancing and 
not having so many people in the Chamber at one time.
    But, prior to COVID, we had gotten down where, if there 
were a long series of votes, we would have even 3- to 5-minute 
votes----
    Mr. Latta. Right.
    Ms. Johnson [continuing]. For very long series.
    Mr. Latta. I remember our 2-minute amendment votes.
    Ms. Johnson. Yes. Correct.
    And, you know, hopefully, we will get through this pandemic 
and we could go back to some sort of efficiency in voting.
    Mr. Latta. Just a real quick followup on that, because, 
again, you know, when I first came down here, you know, we had 
our 15 minutes, and then we thought, well, let's try, you know, 
to keep things changing. We got things down to, you know, 5 
minutes and then 2 minutes.
    Is there any problem with those 2-minute votes for you all 
when we have those? Do we function pretty well right now with 
the 2 minutes?
    Ms. Johnson. We function pretty efficiently with the 2-
minute votes. We have a great--a very, very, very good team.
    Mr. Latta. Thank you.
    Well, Mr. Chair, I am going to yield back the balance of my 
time.
    The Chairman. Thanks, Mr. Latta.
    Mr. Perlmutter.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    You know, just thinking about the different areas I was 
concerned about a few years ago about modernizing Congress, we 
have taken some really, I think, good steps on human resources, 
you know, updating and upgrading our personnel kinds of 
policies and things like that. And I want to thank this 
committee and our witnesses in that effort.
    I think we have made some strides on technology. And part 
of it, you know, was intentional, and part of it was 
``necessity is the mother of invention.'' We had to because of 
COVID, and, you know, the ability to really have good 
communication through a Zoom type of approach like this.
    I am still concerned--and I would ask the chairs that we do 
have the Architect of the Capitol join us for a hearing in the 
near future, because I am not--I need to know more about the 
campus proposals and the layout he suggests.
    Because one of the concerns we have all had is, the basic 
structure of a committee room, you know, does not lend itself 
to collaboration. It lends itself to conflict more than 
collaboration. This, actually, Zooming, you know, I can look at 
William and, you know, know if he is listening to me or not. 
You know, Dean is asleep; I know he is not. So, you know, it 
gives us a chance to really kind of just judge how people are 
responding to things.
    So I would love to get the Architect of the Capitol in, and 
I am sorry he is not here.
    Now, here is my question. And then I will yield to Mr. 
Phillips. But the one place where I see that there is something 
on the horizon but we haven't really implemented anything yet--
there will be significant change next year. Whether Democrats 
hold the House, there are a lot of people moving on--for 
instance, me. If the Republicans take the House, there are 
going to be, obviously, changes--is on that leadership 
training, so that if Mr. Latta or Mr. Timmons or Mr. Phillips 
are all suddenly chairs, that they know what the resources are, 
they know how to run their committee, they are able to hit the 
ground running.
    So my question to you two is, what are we doing on the 
leadership training piece of these things?
    Ms. Szpindor. I can go first.
    For Members and for their Member offices or to assist them 
also with any other responsibilities they may have with 
committees, I mentioned we are--and I am personally 
interviewing people, looking for some of the top consultants in 
management/leadership training in the United States.
    And I have worked with my staff; we have selected some 
individuals to participate and a person to lead that particular 
team of individuals. We hope to have more information on it in 
the next couple of weeks.
    Because, right now, what we are doing, for those that we 
have selected, we are getting them onboarded from an 
acquisition standpoint, but we are also looking to give them 
some preliminary training on a framework that we are 
recommending that they all understand and adhere to.
    So, even though every consultant may be approaching things 
a little differently, they are all adhering to the same 
overarching framework for how they are going to work with the 
Members one-on-one, with their staff, and help them in, one, 
setting goals for their offices, two, understanding that they 
are needing their team to work together to make sure that the 
Member is able to perform the functions that he has to perform 
or she has to perform.
    Mr. Perlmutter. I guess I would also suggest that, if they 
are out there--and I don't know whether they are--that, you 
know, from both sides of the aisle, you know, maybe somebody 
who has chaired a particular committee, you know, and has gone 
through, you know, trial by fire as to how to manage and run 
the committee--because there will be business aspects that a 
management consultant could present but also the political and 
sort of management aspects of being a Member of Congress.
    So, if there are some retired folks out there who have been 
chairs, you might bring them in for a class or two, would be my 
suggestion.
    Ms. Szpindor. And we have discussed that. We----
    Mr. Perlmutter. Okay.
    Ms. Szpindor [continuing]. Have discussed that.
    We are also working with the Congressional Management 
Foundation to provide us some podcasts with discussions by 
previous Members of Congress on various topics as well. And we 
will be introducing that also in the next several weeks.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Okay. Thank you.
    And I will yield back to the chair.
    Ms. Johnson. Could I----
    Mr. Perlmutter. Oh, sure.
    The Chairman. Yes, please go ahead.
    Ms. Johnson. Could I just add that, here in the Clerk's 
Office, we have a course called ``Committee Clerk'' in the 
Congressional Academy where we train the committee clerks to 
make certain that, in any transition--and even if there is not 
a transition in leadership; just on a day-to-day basis, there 
is a lot of turnover--but to make certain that the committee 
clerks continue to have development, professional development.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Great. That is exactly what I am talking 
about, or it could be the committee parliamentarian or counsel 
or----
    Ms. Johnson. Right.
    Mr. Perlmutter [continuing]. Whatever too. All right. Thank 
you. I am glad to hear that.
    And I will yield back.
    The Chairman. Thanks, Mr. Perlmutter.
    Mr. Phillips.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Szpindor. I would like to ask you about space. You 
know, as you know, we have made some recommendations about 
allocation of space, one of them creating a bipartisan Members 
gathering area in the Capitol.
    As you think about space allocation in the Capitol complex, 
you know, what do you think are the most pressing issues that 
we face? And if you could wave a magic wand and make some 
changes, what might they be?
    Ms. Szpindor. Well, first of all, happy birthday.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you.
    Ms. Szpindor. And, you know, space is a premium, even for 
the CAO. We have I think every inch of every office that we 
have fully utilized.
    I do believe that we are doing a good job in administering 
any of the committee rooms that we have. We have a registration 
process for that. But, as far as additional space, we beg and 
borrow, as well, within the CAO to negotiate any additional 
space.
    I don't have a lot of input into space for the Members, 
other than we make sure that the space you have, we have our 
teams and our logistics group that are going to help you in 
designing and trying to make the most optimum use of the space 
that you do have.
    Mr. Phillips. May I just ask, just for my own edification, 
you know, who controls space ultimately? Whose domain is that?
    And I am not sure if anybody has a complete grasp on this. 
If you could just articulate, you know, who ultimately makes 
those decisions in the Capitol complex, at least on the House 
side in this case.
    Ms. Szpindor. We go through our Committee on House 
Administration to request space for us.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Ms. Szpindor. And we are working also at times with the 
Architect of the Capitol. I think that they primarily are the 
ones that have a pulse on all the space that is available 
across the Capitol buildings.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. All right. Well, thank you, ma'am. I 
appreciate it.
    Ms. Johnson one quick question for you too. In your 
testimony, you had articulated a system to track lobbying 
disclosures. And I would love if you might just spend a moment 
just sharing with us a little bit more on that and letting us 
know if you believe you have the authorities and the funding 
already to pursue such a system.
    Mr. Johnson. Currently, we do not have the authority. We--
--
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Ms. Johnson [continuing]. Are still in discussions. The 
committee hasn't given us direction in terms of how far we 
should go.
    And this is one--because lobbying disclosure is in 
conjunction with the Senate side as well, so it is both 
chambers working together----
    Mr. Phillips. Yeah.
    Ms. Johnson [continuing]. On that project.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. All right. I appreciate it.
    I yield back. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Johnson And happy birthday as well.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you so much. I do appreciate it.
    The Chairman. Indeed, happy birthday, Mr. Phillips.
    Let me just ask--I am not seeing if anybody else has 
further questions.
    I am just curious on two fronts: one, whether--you know, 
obviously, a lot of offices over the last year have figured out 
how to telework. And my sense is, that is going to be part of 
the institution's future, where you may not go back to having 
every member of a staff in every single day.
    That may actually be helpful as we look at, for example, 
raising the staff cap, because there is a question of, how do 
you fit all these people into one office?
    I guess I am just curious for your thoughts on that, going 
forward.
    The other thing I want to ask: One of the recommendations 
the committee just made prior to the holidays was around, sort 
of, co-working space. You know, I think our thought here is 
that you would have some space set aside that, if a couple 
offices wanted to collaborate on something or even, let's just 
say for the sake of argument you had 25 people in the office on 
a given day and you had to have someplace for a team member to 
go, that there might be some space that--you know, not unlike 
we see in private industry, where there are, sort of, co-
working opportunities.
    Do you see that as something that could be implemented? Is 
that more likely to be implemented in the realm of more 
teleworking happening?
    Ms. Johnson. Well, I can go first.
    And, even before the pandemic, the fact that some of our 
staff is in O'Neill, across the highway, here with our offices 
in the Capitol we have some hotel space so that that space is 
dedicated for persons who need to be in the Capitol or closer 
to the floor on a given day. Persons would not work at their 
O'Neill space but would take a desk and a computer here in the 
Capitol.
    And in terms of what we are doing right now, we--for 
protective staffing, we have, let's say, six tally clerks. 
Currently, we are only bringing in two or three a day--we have 
Team A and Team B--to make certain that we have a healthy staff 
number at all times to support legislative operations. So three 
would work from home and three would come in, depending on what 
day it is. Because our concern is always to have the 
appropriate staff to make certain that Congress can continue 
its business on a daily basis.
    But, yes, in the future, we do see more and more telework. 
I think it is the only way we are going to be able to stay 
competitive, particularly with our IT persons.
    Ms. Szpindor. And I would tell you, I am a proponent of 
people teleworking, even without the pandemic. It has been 
necessary, but I do believe it is what we are going to see in 
the future.
    One, as we look to fill positions, particularly technical 
positions, more and more individuals are asking in the 
interview if they could telework. It is growing in popularity.
    And I will tell you, a huge majority of our staff do 
telework every single day, especially our engineers on the IT 
side in the HIR. In the past 2 years, we have moved data 
centers remotely, copying data from one data center to the 
other. There is very little that many of our organizations 
cannot do remotely.
    Of course, we have to have our logistics crew onsite. We 
have to have our continuity group, many of them, onsite at 
times. There are some of our payroll, our front--our Member-
facing, staff-facing organizations have, from the very 
beginning of COVID, been onsite, and commendably so, supporting 
and making sure that the House operations continue to work like 
they are supposed to.
    And I know Cheryl----
    The Chairman. We sure appreciate that. Please thank them 
for us too.
    Ms. Szpindor. Yeah. They work very, very hard.
    The Chairman. Can I just ask--and, unless other members 
have additional questions, I will perhaps wrap up with this. 
This may be asking you to make an admission against interests, 
because, as we have peppered you with recommendations, perhaps 
your thought is, ``Please, dear God, stop.''
    But as you look at the--you know, the mission of this 
committee is just to make Congress work better for the American 
people. Are there areas under your purview, under your 
jurisdiction, that you think, hey, I am surprised the committee 
hasn't pulled on this string, or, hey, this is an area of 
opportunity?
    We have another year for the existence of this committee 
before it hits its end date. I am just curious if there are 
areas where you think, hey, this is an area of opportunity to 
improve how the institution works and the committee ought to 
look at it.
    Ms. Szpindor. We have things going in so many different 
areas at the request of the committee and other individuals to 
improve and modernize, I really think that we are good----
    The Chairman. I think I heard you say----
    Ms. Szpindor [continuing]. We are good where we are right 
now.
    The Chairman [continuing] ``Please, dear God, stop,'' but 
in a more diplomatic way.
    Ms. Szpindor. We still have a lot of the recommendations 
that is going to take us--we are doing it, you know, a phase at 
a time, and will take us another year or so to complete.
    I do want to say one thing. For both you and--Congressmen 
Kilmer and Timmons, your staff have been so wonderful to work 
with.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Ms. Szpindor. They have collaborated with us. It has been a 
joy over the past year, quite frankly, to sit down with them 
and actually go over things and get a better understanding from 
them and us be able to work collaboratively. It has been a 
great experience.
    So, if there are other ideas that you may have or that we 
can think of, we will certainly pass them on, but we will work 
to try and deliver what you are asking us to do.
    The Chairman. Terrific.
    Ms. Johnson. any comments on that?
    Ms. Johnson. I would like to echo what the CAO just stated. 
Your staff, both Chair Kilmer and Vice Chair Timmons, are 
extremely helpful, extremely reasonable, and very, very 
committed. And to the extent that we identify challenges, they 
are very receptive. And I have been very, very impressed with 
working with them and look forward to continuing that.
    I would just say, in terms of the recommendations, mine 
that I would recommend that you continue to emphasize are 
probably in the area of the CAO, which has to do with 
personnel. I think this institution is just second to none. And 
to continue that in years and decades going forward, to make 
certain that we continue to have high-quality staff by 
providing them good salaries and good benefits and good working 
conditions.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thanks very much.
    Let me just see if any other members have additional 
questions.
    Mr. Phillips, your hand is up. I assume that is just a 
relic of your prior question.
    Mr. Phillips. Yes, it is a relic. I will virtually take it 
down.
    The Chairman. All right.
    Well, with that, I want to thank our witnesses for their 
testimony today and thank our committee members for their 
participation.
    I will echo the words of both of our witnesses with 
gratitude to our staff, not just for pulling together another 
informative hearing but for their work. I think, insofar as 
possible, we are trying to do this work with you, not to you. 
So, appreciate your collaboration and the work of our staff in 
that regard.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit additional written questions for the 
witnesses to the chair, which will be forwarded to the 
witnesses for their response. I ask our witnesses to please 
respond as promptly as you are able.
    The Chairman. I also want to just thank the team at C-SPAN 
for showing our hearing today. I am sure we are tearing it up 
on ratings at 6:00 a.m. Pacific time. We are killing it, you 
guys.
    I think we are also on Twitch, so I would like to thank all 
gamers out there for watching our hearing as well.
    Ed Perlmutter, I will explain to you what Twitch is when we 
adjourn.
    So, with that, everybody, our hearing is adjourned. Thanks, 
everybody.
    [Whereupon, at 10:02 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]
                 
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