[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  VOTING IN AMERICA: ACCESS TO THE BALLOT 
                              IN PENNSYLVANIA

=======================================================================

                              A ROUNDTABLE

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS

                                 OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON HOUSE
                             ADMINISTRATION
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 10, 2022

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration
      
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      


                       Available on the Internet:
           https://govinfo.gov/committee/house-administration
           
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-556                     WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------              
           
           
           
                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                  ZOE LOFGREN, California, Chairperson
JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland               RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois,
G. K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina      Ranking Member
PETE AGUILAR, California             BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania       BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico
                                 ------                                

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS

              G. K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina, Chairman
PETE AGUILAR, California             BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                              MAY 10, 2022

                                                                   Page
Voting in America: Access to the Ballot in Pennsylvania..........     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Hon. G. K. Butterfield, Chairman
    Statement of Chairman Butterfield............................     1
Hon. Mary Gay Scanlon
    Statement of Hon. Scanlon....................................     2

                               WITNESSES

Leigh Chapman, Acting Secretary, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania....     4
    Statement of Ms. Chapman.....................................     4
Dori Sawyer, Director of Elections, Montgomery County, 
  Pennsylvania...................................................     6
    Statement of Ms. Sawyer......................................     6
Jon Duvall-Flynn, former President of NAACP Pennsylvania State 
  Conference and Branches........................................     8
    Statement of Dr. Duvall-Flynn................................     8
Benjamin Geffen, Staff Attorney, Public Interest Law Center of 
  Philadelphia...................................................     9
    Statement of Mr. Geffen......................................     9
Al Schmidt, President and CEO, The Committee of Seventy..........    11
    Statement of Mr. Schmidt.....................................    11

 
        VOTING IN AMERICA: ACCESS TO THE BALLOT IN PENNSYLVANIA

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, MAY 10, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
                         Subcommittee on Elections,
                        Committee on House Administration ,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., 
Upper Darby Township Building, 100 Garrett Road, Upper Darby, 
Pennsylvania 19082, Hon. G. K. Butterfield [Chairman of the 
Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Butterfield, Aguilar, Scanlon, and 
Dean.

     Opening Statement of Hon. G. K. Butterfield, Chairman, a U.S. 
                   Representative From North Carolina

    Representative Butterfield. Good morning, everyone.
    Let me say thank you to our colleague, and fellow Member of 
the Committee on House Administration, my friend Congresswoman 
Mary Gay Scanlon of the Fifth District. Thank you, Mary Gay for 
hosting us today and welcoming us to your district.
    Let me say welcome to my colleagues from Pennsylvania, all 
of you: Congressman David Dwight Evans of the Third District 
and Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of the Fourth District. I 
thank both of you for joining us and thank you for the 
incredible work that you do in the House of Representatives.
    Let me also just say to my colleagues that I had every 
intention of being with you today. I had purchased my Amtrak 
ticket and reserved the hotel for last evening, but then I had 
a visitor; it was COVID-19. Last week, I was homebound with 
COVID, but thankfully, yesterday, I tested negative. I just 
thought it would be better for me to do this roundtable this 
morning virtually and not feel uncomfortable, nor have any of 
you to feel uncomfortable.
    But for a bout with COVID, I would be there with you today. 
So, thank you for your understanding and thank you for 
participating.
    Finally, let me just say thank you to our panelists for 
joining us in this discussion and to the Upper Darby Township. 
You are great and, just, you are fantastic for opening your 
doors and hosting us today.
    We have assembled today to discuss voting and we want to 
discuss access to the ballot in the Commonwealth of 
Pennsylvania. Over the past several years, several significant 
events have improved ballot access for voters across the 
Commonwealth, including the courts stopping a strict voter-ID 
law, the striking down of gerrymandered congressional maps, the 
passage of Act 77 in 2019, which expanded ballot access and 
altering election administration proceedings to help voters 
during the pandemic.
    But, unfortunately, not all in the Commonwealth and across 
the country have supported this increased access. Pennsylvania 
was the subject of numerous lawsuits during the last election 
and despite no evidence to support these claims, ballots cast 
by Pennsylvania voters became the target of disinformation and 
unfounded accusations of fraud during the last general 
election; charges that went so far as to have Pennsylvania's 
electoral votes challenged on the House Floor during the 
certification of the presidential election on January 6th.
    Attempts to curtail ballot access have continued; for 
example, now, despite bipartisan support for mail-in voting 
when it passed the legislature in 2019 and its popularity among 
voters, some in your state are suing to try to have the mail-in 
voting law overturned.
    In the wake of the last election, we have seen far too many 
states enact or attempt to enact laws that restrict access to 
the ballot. In Pennsylvania, opponents of ballot access are now 
turning to ballot questions, attempting to enact restrictive 
measures through state constitutional amendments during the 
upcoming election.
    During today's roundtable, we will hear from election 
officials and litigators and advocates about how voters in the 
Commonwealth can access their ballot freely and fairly and 
securely, ways in which officials are working to improve ballot 
access and ongoing attempts to curtail that access.
    And so, I look forward, I look forward to hearing from our 
panelists today about these and other topics and continuing to 
work with my colleagues to ensure every voter receives equal 
and equitable access to the ballot box across the country. 
Thank you for listening to these opening remarks.
    Representative Butterfield. I will now recognize my friend 
and colleague, Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon, for any opening 
comments that she would like to make.

Opening Statement of Hon. Mary Gay Scanlon, a U.S. Representative From 
                              Pennsylvania

    Representative Scanlon. Thank you so much, Chairman 
Butterfield, and thank you to my colleagues and our officials 
from throughout Southeastern and Greater Pennsylvania, for 
being here to discuss the strengths of Pennsylvania's election 
system and the possible lessons we can glean from ongoing 
election efforts across the Commonwealth.
    For more than a decade, Pennsylvania has been ground zero 
in efforts to restrict the right to vote in response to false 
claims of voter fraud. Then as now instances of voter fraud are 
vanishingly rare. But losing candidates and those who want to 
make it harder for some eligible voters to exercise this 
essential freedom have increasingly and falsely claimed that 
our elections are being stolen by immigrants, dead people, 
foreign hackers, phantom voters, and other bad actors. Not only 
are those claims false, but they have also inflicted damage 
upon public confidence in our elections, inspiring attacks upon 
Congress and election officials.
    In 2011 to 2012, Pennsylvania saw the passage of some of 
the most egregiously gerrymandered state and Congressional 
legislative districts in the country, as well as passage of a 
voter ID law that was so restrictive, it threatened to 
disenfranchise over a half million eligible Pennsylvania 
voters.
    After that, in 2016, we learned that foreign adversaries 
worked diligently to sow mistrust and doubt among the American 
public, and in Pennsylvania, about the security and validity of 
our elections and those efforts have continued.
    In 2020, we saw what we hoped was the culmination and final 
chapter of these multi-year trends, as large swaths of the 
Republican Party led by the former President, espoused the Big 
Lie and this ended with an unprecedented insurrection against 
the American government at the United States Capitol.
    So, nowhere have we felt these impacts more than in 
Pennsylvania. Throughout it all, dedicated Pennsylvanians, who 
oversee and coordinate our elections from both parties, have 
pushed forward to perform their duties. Election workers and 
administrators of both parties rose above bitter partisanship, 
maximizing opportunities for Pennsylvanians to vote, and fight 
back against misinformation, even through the challenges of the 
COVID pandemic.
    So, I am looking forward to hearing from folks who have 
been on the front lines in these issues over the last few 
years. And with that, I will turn it over to my colleague, 
Madeleine Dean.
    Ms. Dean. Well, Chairman Butterfield and Mary Gay, 
Representative Scanlon, I am delighted to be here with all of 
you and I thank those who are testifying before us.
    I come at this with an interesting set of lenses. I was a 
State Representative. I was sworn in, in a special election in 
May of 2012, after voter ID had passed in Pennsylvania. And 
very quickly, we found the work of our constituent services 
office was to go visit older people in nursing homes, to visit 
young people to say: We want to do everything we possibly can 
to make sure you have the right to vote. Fortunately, and it 
created an incredible disturbance, and as Mary Gay pointed out, 
layered over the horrifically gerrymandered maps. This was a 
corrosive, purposeful intent to undermine confidence in the 
election, culminating several years later, almost 10 years 
later with an insurrection on our Capitol.
    So, I come at this saying that we are keenly aware of the 
work of some to undermine access to elections. We are keenly 
aware of Act 77 and the expansion that Act 77 represented, 
brought forward by a Republican majority, and passed the House, 
signed by the Governor, and then, of course, two elections 
later, when certain people didn't like the outcome, up came the 
Big Lie.
    So, I am just delighted to be here with all of you to make 
sure that we keep exposing the public to what the goals should 
be: more people, everybody with legal access to voting and we 
must stop the undermining of our confidence in elections. That 
is harmful to our democracy, and sadly, we saw that play itself 
out January 6th.
    And I yield back.
    Representative Butterfield. The gentlelady yields back.
    I thank both of you for your opening statements.
    As we begin our discussions this morning, I would like to 
take a moment to just introduce our panelists. Panelist number 
one is Leigh Chapman. Leigh serves as Acting Secretary of the 
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, leading the Pennsylvania 
Department of State. She served as Policy Director at the 
Department from 2015 to 2017 and has held senior leadership 
positions at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human 
Rights and other nonpartisan, nonprofit organizations.
    Witness two is Dori Sawyer. Dori serves as Director of 
Elections for Montgomery County, Pennsylvania.
    Next witness is Dr. Joan Duvall-Flynn. Joan is the past 
President of the NAACP, Pennsylvania State Conference and 
Branches. She served as a past President of the NAACP Media 
Area Unit, and she served as Chair of the Pennsylvania NAACP 
Education Committee.
    Next is Benjamin Geffen. Benjamin is a Staff Attorney with 
the Public Interest Law Center of Philadelphia, where he has 
successfully argued cases on voting rights, such as striking 
down Pennsylvania's gerrymandered congressional map and its 
former voter ID law.
    Al Schmidt. Al is the President and CEO of the Committee of 
Seventy, a non-profit, nonpartisan good, government 
organization. He previously served 10 years as City 
Commissioner of Philadelphia.
    Thank you to each of the witnesses for your participation 
today.
    Secretary Chapman, you should go first. Please go right 
ahead.

      STATEMENT OF LEIGH CHAPMAN, ACTING SECRETARY OF THE 
                  COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

    Ms. Chapman. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Chairman 
Butterfield, Members of the House Administration Committee, 
Representative Dean, and Representative Scanlon.
    I am Leigh Chapman, Acting Secretary of the Commonwealth of 
Pennsylvania. I was appointed by Governor Tom Wolf on January 
8, 2022.
    As Pennsylvania's Chief Election Officer, my role is to 
ensure that elections are secure and accessible, and that every 
eligible Pennsylvanian can register, cast their ballot, and 
have it counted.
    I just wanted to thank you all for this opportunity to 
participate in this discussion regarding Pennsylvania 
elections. As you know, Pennsylvania's primary is one week 
away, on Tuesday, May 17.
    With one week to go, we have 8.7 million registered voters 
in Pennsylvania; 895,000 requests for absentee and mail 
ballots, and 340,000 returned ballots, which is about a 37 
percent return rate so far.
    So, at the Department, we are focused on reaching voters 
from across the Commonwealth in rural and urban areas to inform 
them about how to cast a ballot in the primary election. We are 
really meeting voters where they are and utilizing social 
media, emails, text messages, outdoor paid media, radio, and 
internet ads to provide information and reminders before 
Election Day.
    I just wanted to say this, importantly, anybody who wants 
to vote by mail in this primary election that hasn't applied, 
has until this afternoon at 5:00 p.m. to apply. And mail 
ballots must be received by the voters County Board of 
Elections by 8:00 p.m. on Election Day. And if voters want more 
information, if they are watching, they can go to our website, 
vote.pa.gov, to request that ballot by 5:00 p.m. today.
    So, now I just wanted to discuss the various concerns and 
threats to elections. One of the biggest threats to our 
elections and to democracy in general, is misinformation and 
disinformation. Whether intentional or unintentional, both 
reduce voters' confidence in the electoral process, and, in 
turn, discourage participation.
    So, let's use the example of dropboxes. There are some that 
say mail-in voting, specifically, dropboxes can't be trusted, 
and I disagree, as dropboxes are a secure way to drop off your 
mail ballot.
    So, recently, as some of you may have heard, the District 
Attorney in Lehigh County announced that he will have 
detective-surveilled dropbox locations because security video 
from the 2021 election purportedly showed hundreds of voters 
dropping off more than one ballot. He has acknowledged to the 
press that there was no evidence that drop-boxes have been used 
to tamper with votes or cast fraudulent ballots.
    I have been in communication with the DA to express my 
concerns that the presence of law enforcement could deter 
voters from lawfully casting a ballot.
    So, while there are several reforms that the Department 
would propose to modernize our election laws, I'll focus on 
two. One reform that would go a long way towards squelching 
disinformation about mail-in balloting is also consistently 
requested by county election officials for administrative 
reasons: additional time for pre-canvassing mail-in and 
absentee ballots.
    So, during pre-canvassing, officials verify the signature 
on the outer envelope against the voter's registration and 
remove the secrecy envelope. Under current law, pre-canvassing 
can't begin until 7:00 a.m. on Election Day, which even before 
widespread mail-in voting, was the busiest day of the year for 
election workers.
    In 2020, while the nation waited days for Pennsylvania's 
results, the delay created an opportunity for speculation and 
conjecture of something afoul in the process. Extending the 
pre-canvassing period increases the likelihood that election 
officials can post election results as close to the close of 
polls as possible.
    This reform would also alleviate the pressure experienced 
by county and local election officials on Election Day, as they 
are trying to canvas thousands of mail-in ballots while in-
person voting is underway through their counties.
    Second, counties consistently express another need: 
adequate, consistent funding from the State and Federal 
Government. In Pennsylvania, counties bear virtually all the 
costs to run elections at every level. While counties have 
long-needed more support, the circumstances of 2020 exposed the 
gaping flaws in the current funding model.
    In addition to the pandemic, new threats and new election 
law require counties to upgrade their systems and machines. And 
while the Federal Government provided some support through the 
CARES Act, that was not enough to meet the need. Nonprofits 
stepped in at the eleventh hour, providing grants to the State 
and every County that applied.
    County officials from both major parties have acknowledged 
that those grants filled a critical gap, which if not filled, 
could have proven disastrous, yet those grants became a target 
for post-election disinformation. There is currently a state 
bill pending that would ban such funding in the future.
    So, the Department asks that Federal and state legislatures 
share the cost of administering both, state and Federal 
elections. Specifically, we ask you to support President 
Biden's new proposal to infuse $15 billion into elections, 
including $10 billion to go directly to states and $5 billion 
to improve postal delivery of mail-in ballots.
    So, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this 
important conversation, and I welcome any questions that you 
may have.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, Madam Secretary.
    Ms. Chapman. Thank you.
    Representative Butterfield. At this time, I will recognize 
Ms. Sawyer. You are next.

STATEMENT OF DORI SAWYER, DIRECTOR OF ELECTIONS FOR MONTGOMERY 
                      COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA

    Ms. Sawyer. Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to 
participate in this roundtable. My name is Dori Sawyer. I am 
the Director of Elections for Montgomery County.
    County Voter Services Offices are responsible for the 
logistical and operational aspects of elections. Our 
responsibilities range from registering the voters, to 
collecting petitions for local candidates, to securing polling 
locations, and training our poll workers.
    I have the privilege to work with an engaged team of 
election officials who all work tirelessly to ensure that the 
elections in Montgomery County are free, fair, safe, and 
secure. This starts by ensuring that every resident with legal 
standing to vote, understands the steps they must take in order 
to do so. They process voter registration, maintain the voter 
rolls, and also process absentee and mail-in ballot 
applications. They undergo in-depth training to ensure that all 
laws pertaining to voter registration and mail balloting are 
followed.
    Other teammates help manage campaign finance filings for 
specific offices, recruit and train poll workers, secure 
polling locations, and host voter education seminars.
    Our website is an excellent resource for residents who want 
to register to vote, update their registration, apply for an 
absentee or mail-in ballot, view the sample ballot for their 
precinct, or finding their polling location. We also have a 
``frequently asked questions'' section that we update regularly 
based on the topics residents are contacting us about.
    You can view historical election data to find statistics on 
voter participation, view a variety of different maps, and 
learn more about how to get involved as a poll worker or a 
mail-in ballot canvasser. You can also find videos that 
demonstrate how the equipment in the polling location works so 
that you know what to expect when you arrive.
    Speaking of the machines, our team is also responsible for 
ensuring that they are all working properly ahead of Election 
Day. We test every single scanner to ensure that votes are 
being awarded to the correct candidate before Election Day and 
complete an audit after Election Day to ensure that they 
performed correctly.
    The scanners in the polling locations are only programmed 
to read the Election Day ballot for one particular precinct. 
They cannot read absentee, mail-in, or provisional ballots. In 
Montgomery County, we utilize about 2,600 residents each 
election. Many are poll workers, who are trained to perform 
specific tasks inside of a polling location. They issue ballots 
to eligible voters and are aware of who, within the precincts, 
applied for a mail-in ballot. They play an active role in 
ensuring that no one votes both ways and must void the voter's 
mail-in ballot and return envelope before issuing an Election 
Day ballot. This is just one measure we have in place to ensure 
that no voter casts more than one ballot.
    Residents also help process the ballots that we receive by 
mail. When a voted ballot arrives in our office, it is 
timestamped and marked as ``received'' in the voter 
registration system. At 7:00 a.m. on Election Day, we are 
allowed to begin processing them and can make determinations as 
to whether or not a ballot can be counted.
    Ballots that are approved for counting are opened and 
scanned on similar equipment as what is found in a polling 
location. Ballots that are deficient in any way are reviewed by 
lawyers who determine if we are legally permitted to add that 
ballot into the count or if it must be rejected. Any ballot 
that is rejected is marked accordingly in our system, which 
helps us reconcile our records.
    After polls close, the judge of election from each print 
brings their voted ballots and the memory card from the scanner 
back to Voter Services so that we can secure the ballots and 
post unofficial results. We also post the unofficial results 
from the absentee and mail-in ballots that have been counted up 
to that point, even though we may not be finished opening and 
counting all of the ballots that we have received. The results 
will continue to be updated as judges bring their materials 
back and the mail-in team continues to process all ballots that 
were received by the County by 8:00 p.m.
    After Election Day, we update all of the records of all the 
residents who voted in person, using the information from the 
poll books. This takes us between 2 and 3 days to complete, 
depending on voter turnout. As I mentioned earlier, the 
profiles of voters who return their ballots by email are 
updated when we receive their ballot.
    On the Friday after Election Day, yet another group of 
well-trained Montgomery County residents assemble to perform 
reconciliation and tabulation. They are a bipartisan group of 
registered voters who ensure that we have a ballot for each 
person, who we have recorded as having voted.
    They must manually record and tabulate the write-in 
candidates, which takes a significant amount of time for a 
county our size. Once all of the ballots have been reconciled 
and the last write-in tabulated and all of the audits have been 
performed, we present the unofficial results to the Election 
Board to be certified.
    Lawyers and poll watchers are able to observe us while we 
process ballots and move through the different processes. 
Registered voters from across the county are involved in every 
single election, whether they are casting ballots, working on 
Election Day in a polling location, processing mail-in ballots, 
observing the process as a poll watcher, or working as a full-
time Voter Services team member. The people are an essential 
component of this democracy, and I am proud to say that 
Montgomery County residents show up and take part every time.
    Residents who have questions about anything election-
related should reach out to their County Voter Services 
Department. Thank you.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, Ms. Sawyer.
    Next will be Dr. Duvall-Flynn. You may go next.

 STATEMENT OF DR. JOAN DUVALL-FLYNN, PAST PRESIDENT OF NAACP, 
 PENNSYLVANIA STATE CONFERENCE AND BRANCHES, PAST PRESIDENT OF 
  NAACP MEDIA AREA UNIT, AND PAST CHAIR OF PENNSYLVANIA NAACP 
                      EDUCATION COMMITTEE

    Dr. Duvall-Flynn. Thank you.
    Thank you for inviting me here, esteemed elected officials, 
who are the beneficiary of our vote. This discussion is among 
the most important of our time.
    I was born under Plessy v. Ferguson, and I was relieved of 
that burden under President Truman and Chief Justice Moore, so 
voting matters. It makes a difference who holds power.
    There is no issue that I am aware of concerning safe and 
secure elections. As a poll worker, I have witnessed the 
securities in place to protect citizens' votes. Poll workers 
are trained. We are careful to follow the state regulations and 
guidelines from 6:45 in the morning until we shut those polling 
booths down in the evening, and repack them, according to rigid 
guidelines.
    I've talked with citizens about what they see as impeding 
their access to the ballot. We frequently talk in very 
sophisticated terms about legislation and such, so I wanted to 
know what do the people who do not vote say is keeping them 
from voting. We do know that mail-in voting works. I, for a 
couple of years, did mail-in vote. My husband did mail-in vote. 
Even when I made a mistake on my mail-in ballot, when I went to 
the voting center in Delaware County in Media, there was a 
rigid process for me turning in the mistake and getting another 
ballot, which I could cast correctly, and then drop in the 
drop-box.
    When there was a challenge in Pennsylvania about dropboxes, 
I was asked to be witness in that court case to say that it was 
essential for some citizens of Pennsylvania to have access to a 
mail-in ballot. I have never had a problem and we have not 
noted any problems in Delaware County, where I live.
    One of the problems that citizens tell me that inhibits 
their voting is that they are not clear about the rules. So, 
there are people with language barriers who can't quite figure 
it out: if I have voted before, do I need to take ID to vote 
this time? Because they are unaware that that has been 
litigated and resolved in Pennsylvania, thank you so much.
    Some people are confused as to their polling place. What I 
have noticed in working with polls is this frequently can 
happen to the elderly. They are just not sure when they move 
into assisted-living settings, they are just not sure where 
they are supposed to vote. So, frequently, they go to the 
closest place, which may not be their designated poll.
    But what happens when people come, and they are not clear? 
Everyone working the polls does whatever it takes, makes 
whatever phone calls are necessary, to get that person to the 
right poll. Voters, from my experience as a poll worker, are 
taken care of with extreme care and they are treated with great 
respect and everything that can be done to make sure that they 
can cast a ballot that will be counted is done.
    Registration is a problem for some people. Re-entry people 
frequently do not know they can vote. Some people are unclear 
as to when provisional ballots are required. That process is 
taken care of very carefully at the poll.
    Evictions during COVID have left some people living in 
chaos, not understanding they have to go change their address, 
and so they are precluded from voting.
    So, the other thing is, and my time is over, correct 
information. Correct information is a big block to voting. And 
the other impediment for many nonvoters is transportation to 
the polls. This is what the grassroots people are saying, they 
are not talking about the laws that are pending and such. They 
can't get there.
    So, I want to thank you for allowing me to share what I 
have learned, and I will be happy to answer any questions that 
might be helpful.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, as well.
    At this time, I will recognize Mr. Geffen.

 STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN GEFFEN, STAFF ATTORNEY, PUBLIC INTEREST 
                   LAW CENTER OF PHILADELPHIA

    Mr. Geffen. Thank you, Chairman Butterfield.
    Thank you, Congresswoman Scanlon, Congresswoman Dean, and 
everyone else for being here today to talk about what is a 
vital issue.
    I was glad to hear mention of the voter ID fight because, 
although it has been, it has been over 10 years now that that 
statute was passed in Pennsylvania and then struck out down in 
the courts, it is still very important to understand when we 
think about all the rhetoric around the 2020 election and that 
we are starting to hear about the 2022 election and beyond.
    That law was passed in March 2012, signed by Governor 
Corbett, and it would have given Pennsylvania the strictest 
requirement in the country for voting. It would have forbidden 
anyone to vote unless they were able to present a photo ID from 
a short list of acceptable IDs at the polling place at every 
single election.
    We proved at trial that this would disenfranchise, perhaps 
tens of thousands, more likely hundreds of thousands of voters 
in Pennsylvania, people who were unable to obtain one of the 
types of photos IDs on the list. The rationale that had been 
stated for this law by Governor Corbett, by leaders in the 
State Legislature, was that this was necessary to stamp-out 
widespread voter fraud in Pennsylvania.
    So, we asked them to sit down for depositions, some of 
these elected officials who had made comments like this, to 
give us evidence under oath of all this voter fraud that the 
statute was needed to prevent. They didn't want to sit down for 
those depositions for some reasons and, ultimately, it is a 
long story, and I am happy to share it someday, because it is a 
funny one, but ultimately, they signed a stipulation. They 
signed a legal document, instead of appearing for their 
depositions, instead of testifying under oath, they signed a 
document that said that they were not aware of any incidents of 
in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania and do not have direct 
personal knowledge of in-person voter fraud elsewhere.
    They would have had no evidence that in-person voter fraud 
has, in fact, occurred in Pennsylvania or elsewhere. They have 
no evidence or argument that in-person voter fraud is likely to 
occur in the future in Pennsylvania in the absence of the photo 
ID law.
    And so, we were able to win that case, and I want to 
highlight one thing, we were able to win that case and strike 
down that law and keep allowing Pennsylvanians to vote 
regardless of whether they have photo ID, thanks to the 
Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court and the Pennsylvania Supreme 
Court.
    A few years prior, the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled against 
the Plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging an Indiana voter ID law 
and that case was brought under the U.S. Constitution. We won 
our case under the Pennsylvania Constitution, which goes 
farther than the U.S. Constitution in guaranteeing a right to 
vote. And that has become increasingly important, I think, to 
people concerned about protecting their right to vote against 
threats from legislation and State Legislatures, because State 
Constitutions all over the country go further than the U.S. 
Constitution in safeguarding the right to vote.
    That was crucial, again, in 2017 and 2018, when we 
successfully challenged Pennsylvania's gerrymandered 
Congressional map from 2011. That map was drawn in a way to 
make votes meaningless. It was drawn, Pennsylvania had 18 
Congressional districts and the map was carefully engineered to 
ensure that 13 out of 18 districts would always be won by 
Republicans, that the map would be impervious to the will of 
the voters.
    So even in a year when the Democrats had a great election 
statewide, for example, in 2012, when President Obama won 
Pennsylvania, won re-election by a comfortable margin, 13 out 
of 18 congressional districts, 72 percent of the Congressional 
districts went to Republicans. This map made a mockery of the 
will of the voters.
    The Pennsylvania courts saw through it and in 2018, issued 
a decision striking that map down as violative of 
Pennsylvania's constitutional protections of the right to vote 
and required the draw of a new, fair map that is responsive to 
the will of the voters.
    Our new Congressional map that is being used starting this 
fall, is very similar to the new Congressional map that 
Pennsylvania got in 2018, and it continues that new tradition 
here of having congressional district maps where voters really 
count and where their votes really matter.
    Finally, I just want to mention the case that is in front 
of the State Courts right now about the right to vote by mail. 
That was passed in Act 77 in 2019, a bipartisan bill that 
passed the legislature, that extended the right to vote to add 
writing, the right to vote by mail, which it was especially an 
important safeguard during the worst days of COVID.
    That is being challenged in court. I am confident that the 
Pennsylvania Supreme Court will see through it again and will 
uphold this important expansion of voting rights. I will just 
mention one of the, a couple of the clients we represent in 
that case, one is, her name is Molly Mahon. She is a nurse who 
works in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. She works shifts often 
and on Tuesdays from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. and it takes her a 
while to get home. So, she would not be able to vote in person 
on Election Day, without the right to vote by mail. So, she 
risks disenfranchisement if this lawsuit is successful.
    The other is Leah Marx. She is a military spouse. Her 
husband is stationed at an Army base in Washington State and 
while she is living there with him, she is continuing to 
exercise her right to vote in Pennsylvania by a mail-in ballot. 
Her right to vote is also in jeopardy if this lawsuit goes the 
wrong way.
    Again, I am confident that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court 
will uphold this important aspect of our voting rights.
    Representative Butterfield. All right. Thank you very much 
for your testimony.
    At this time, I will recognize Mr. Schmidt.

 STATEMENT OF AL SCHMIDT, PRESIDENT AND CEO, THE COMMITTEE OF 
                            SEVENTY

    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Congressmember Butterfield, 
Congressmembers Scanlon and Dean, and Congressman Dwight Evans, 
who is my Congressman, representing my district in 
Philadelphia.
    My name is Al Schmidt. I was an Election Director, City 
Commissioner of Philadelphia for 10 years, and I am now at the 
Committee of Seventy.
    I wanted to share my perspective, both from the sort of 
parochial level, running an election in Philadelphia, and also 
from what I have learned from meeting with election officials 
and Secretaries of State around the country, because we are all 
facing the same thing, we are all struggling with the same 
issues, and many of those involve the Federal government.
    And since I can speak directly to Members of Congress 
today, I wanted to just briefly focus on that and break it into 
soft three categories of infrastructure, where the Federal 
government can play a role: the protection of physical 
infrastructure, the protection of our cyber infrastructure, and 
our protection of our human infrastructure.
    And I know that is a clumsy, awkward way of phrasing it. I 
used to be a Senior Analyst at the Government Accountability 
Office in Washington, D.C. and we managed to always put things 
in terms that were highly robotic, highly technical, and so 
forgive me for using the term ``human infrastructure.'' I am 
talking about real people who make our elections happen, who 
are also vulnerable to what is going on.
    On the physical infrastructure side, it is pretty 
straightforward, and I know you hear this a lot on every 
committee that you ever hear from, is more resources to protect 
the physical infrastructure of elections. In Philadelphia, a 
lesson learned from the 2020 election, where we had the 
opportunity to essentially rent out the entire Pennsylvania 
Convention Center to consolidate our election operations is how 
important that physical infrastructure is, how much protection 
it needs, how expensive it is to make sure that the perimeter 
is secure, to make sure that you have cameras, to make sure 
that you have security, and all the rest. All those things cost 
dollars.
    I was grateful to see in the legislation coming down the 
line that there is much more available to states and counties 
than was originally included.
    In terms of cyber infrastructure, I would first commend the 
Department of Homeland Security, CISA, and our Federal election 
partners for reaching out to counties to test and red team and 
everything else, the cyber infrastructure of county elections, 
which is critically important not just to make sure that 
election results are not interfered with, which I think is less 
of a vulnerability, and more to make sure that there isn't an 
opportunity for creating chaos or creating and spreading 
misinformation from sort of interfering with the reporting 
system, which was connected to the internet and unconnected 
from the election tabulation.
    And, lastly, on the human infrastructure front, and I am 
only one of many election administrators in Philadelphia who 
were on the receiving end of violent threats and death threats 
to myself and my family and my children, many had it worse than 
me, I am certain, but ultimately, whether it is at the county 
level or at your local precinct, it is real people who have to 
make elections run, and those real people are under attack.
    And whether we are talking about humans running elections 
or physical infrastructure or cyber infrastructure, all of this 
is arising from the misinformation and disinformation campaign 
that is misleading people, that is deceiving people and causing 
them to manifest, in a physical way, their having been deceived 
by beliefs that the election was stolen. We have seen that sort 
all over the country.
    So, the most important thing the Federal government should 
do or could do, and I would encourage the Department of Justice 
to continue pursuing this, I know there is a task force, but 
what I have not seen, while I have seen plenty of 
accountability, as there should be for what occurred on January 
6th, I have not seen any commensurate accountability for what 
occurred to election administrators across the country in the 
last election. And nothing is going to fix that, absent 
accountability, and people need to be held accountable.
    And your local police, like in Philadelphia, the police 
were phenomenal in protecting my kids. You know, when I took 
them sledding in the snow, Detective Smith and Park were with 
us. When I walked the dog, they walked the dog.
    The local police were phenomenal. The Federal response 
should be commensurate to that, and people should be held 
accountable. I would encourage the Department of Justice to 
continue their hard work on this to make sure that that 
happens, because in my mind, it is the only thing that could 
possibly deter it from continuing.
    So, that is the intersection that I just wanted to share 
from my local, parochial, kind of point of view, to the Federal 
level and how I think you all can help strengthen democracy.
    Representative Butterfield. Thank you very much, Mr. 
Schmidt.
    And thank you to all of our witnesses for your very 
brilliant testimonies today.
    I think it is now time to begin Member questions. It looks 
like Mr. Aguilar, Pete Aguilar, a Congressman from California, 
will be first on the list.
    Pete, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Aguilar. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    And a special thanks to our colleagues: Mary Gay Scanlon, 
Madeleine Dean, and Dwight Evans for participating in the 
panel.
    I can tell all those individuals in Pennsylvania that you 
have amazing Representatives who work with Chairman Butterfield 
every day to make sure that we strengthen democracy and ensure 
that we are doing as much as we can to ensure and protect the 
vote.
    I wanted to start, Mr. Schmidt, you kind of walked down the 
path of cost in securing our elections, and Secretary Chapman, 
you did the same in talking about the total costs, and you gave 
the national number that the President was seeking to help 
elections.
    Secretary, can you start, first, by saying what you feel 
the costs would be in Pennsylvania to secure your elections, 
update your voting machines, and ensure that we have a safe and 
secure election.
    And then Mr. Schmidt, if you could, you know, answer that 
from your perspective, as well, with the Pennsylvania scope, 
not including cyber.
    Ms. Chapman. Sure. Well, thank you for that question, 
Congressman Aguilar.
    The cost to implement elections in Pennsylvania has varied 
since Act 77 in 2019 that brought mail-in voting to the 
Commonwealth. So, pre-Act 77, it cost around $20 to $25 million 
to execute and election statewide, but that cost has gone up 
significantly recently.
    So, one thing, when you mentioned voting machines, we were 
able to, the State of Pennsylvania provided a $90 million bond 
that helps states secure voting machines pre-2020, so, you 
know, there is a need for consistent funding because we have 
these one-time infusion of funds, but, of course, machines, you 
know, just, they are only a few years' old before they are at 
the end of their useful life, right, so they are going to need 
to be released in a few years from now.
    So, that is what we are really advocating for, is 
consistent funding from both, the State and Federal level. If 
we do have consistent funding, then nonprofits and third-party 
groups won't have to step in like they did for 2020.
    But, I was in Philadelphia yesterday. I toured the election 
facilities. They had really high-tech equipment that can 
process thousands of ballots, you know, really per-minute, so 
they wouldn't be able to purchase that unless there was that 
third-party funding in 2020. So, it is important that all 
counties have access to consistent funding because they really 
bear the burden of the costs to implement elections.
    Mr. Aguilar. Thank you.
    Mr. Schmidt.
    Mr. Schmidt. Just to echo a little bit of what Secretary 
Chapman said about running elections, in Philadelphia, when I 
started 10 years ago, our budget was around $10 million. With 
the addition of mail-in ballot voting, with the addition of our 
new voting machines, so we have a new, we have a new voting 
system and a whole new system of voting to make it more 
accessible to voters, as we should.
    Whether they choose to vote in person at the polling place 
on a voting machine on Election Day and get a voter-verifiable, 
paper ballot that we use for our two audits in Philadelphia 
which we do every year, or the new system of voting for 
processing many hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots in 
Philadelphia, it is expensive and I can't imagine what the 2020 
election would have been like had we not received, like many 
counties did across the Commonwealth, Republican majority and 
Democratic majority counties, access to third-party grants that 
allowed us to buy a lot of that equipment, without affecting a 
single vote, without affecting a single race, not benefiting 
any party, not benefiting any candidate.
    The biggest advantages were twofold; one, allowing us to 
process mail-in ballots and organize them by ward and division 
or precinct--ward and precinct so that we could identify anyone 
who voted in person and locate their mail-in ballot to make 
sure the two ballots weren't counted. And the other, because 
the Commonwealth, while we have had Act 77, which has allowed 
us to have mail-in voting, doesn't allow the counties to begin 
processing those mail-in ballots until 7:00 a.m. on election 
morning.
    So, voters get confused, and they see, hey, like lots of 
voters in Florida vote by mail. How do they have the results at 
10:00 p.m. on election night?
    Well, that is because the law in Florida allows the 
counties to begin processing those mail-in ballots earlier. In 
Pennsylvania, we do not have that yet and our divided 
Government has protected us from a lot of what we have seen in 
other states that has made access more difficult. But what we 
also haven't seen are reforms to Act 77 that allow for 
improvements.
    Very briefly on the cybersecurity thing, it is really about 
access to resources, to Federal government resources to test 
those systems to make sure that those systems are not 
vulnerable. There are some dollars involved, but it is not 
really a dollar thing it is about a partnership with the 
Federal Government.
    Mr. Aguilar. And we appreciate that.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is expired. I yield back.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, Mr. Aguilar.
    At this time, the chair recognizes Congresswoman Mary Gay 
Scanlon for 5 minutes.
    Representative Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Secretary Chapman, one of the biggest pieces of 
disinformation that we have been dealing with since the passage 
of Act 77, I think, is that somehow mail-in ballots are 
susceptible to fraud.
    Could you just address that briefly, talk a little bit 
about the redundancies that are in place; the things that make 
it impossible for someone to get a mail-in ballot, take it to a 
copying center, and put in a million votes for their preferred 
candidate, or whatever else is out there.
    Ms. Chapman. Well, thank you, Congresswoman.
    I mean, mail-in voting is safe and secure. And one thing 
that a lot of people forget is that Pennsylvania has had 
absentee voting for decades and it is the same process. You 
know, in Pennsylvania, absentee voting requires you to provide 
an excuse or a reason to request your mail ballot, but now with 
Act 77, anyone in the Commonwealth, who is a registered, 
eligible voter, can request their mail-in ballot. So, it is the 
same process that we have been using for decades and there 
weren't these concerns before.
    I just wanted to say that it is so popular that 4.7 million 
voters in Pennsylvania have used mail-in voting to date. And as 
I mentioned in my testimony, you know, we have seen close to 
850,000 requests come through.
    But, Pennsylvania voters, they must apply for a mail-in 
ballot. In Pennsylvania, we do not send mail-in ballots to 
every voter; there is an application process. They also must 
provide identification, such as a driver's license number or 
the last four digits of their Social Security number. And their 
county election official verifies their application against 
their voter registration.
    After they receive their mail-in ballot and filled it out, 
they must sign an under oath under penalty of perjury. Their 
county, again, checks to make sure that they are on the list of 
approved voters and verifies that they have signed their voter 
oath. So, all of these checks happen for every single voter.
    So, it is a secure process, and, you know, one thing that 
we need to make sure is that voters have the ability to return 
their ballot in multiple options. You know, we are all about 
providing options for voters. So, whether that is using the 
United States Postal Service, dropboxes, or going to your 
county and voting it in person there.
    I just want to say, you know there have been a lot of 
conversation around dropboxes and dropboxes fraud in 
Pennsylvania. You know, we are definitely not seeing dropbox 
fraud in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
    In Pennsylvania, you have to return, every voter is 
required to return their own mail-in ballot, unless they have a 
disability, and a designated agent can return that ballot on 
their behalf. So, we are doing a lot of education to dispel 
that misinformation and disinformation, but, you know, we 
really commend counties that are providing that access to 
voters.
    I just wanted to say in Delaware County, there are 30 drop-
boxes that voters can return their ballot to. In Chester 
County, there is 13. And in Montgomery County, there is 11. So, 
you know, if anyone is watching this, I want to make sure that 
today is the deadline, 5:00 p.m. to request your ballot and you 
have until 8:00 p.m. on Election Day. So, thank you.
    Representative Scanlon. Thank you.
    Just to make that concrete, Ms. Sawyer, if someone were to 
make a copy of their mail-in ballot and try to return it 
multiple times, would that be caught?
    Ms. Sawyer. Yes. As I mentioned in my opening statement, 
was every time a ballot is returned to us, we update the 
voter's profile to indicate that their ballot has been cast.
    If we were to get a ballot from a person who never 
requested one, that would be caught. If we had already recorded 
a ballot for that person, the system would not allow us to 
accept a second ballot. The updating of the record serves 
multiple purposes. Number one, if the voter has provided an 
email address, they will receive an email indicating that their 
ballot has been received. So, if that ballot was filled out by 
someone other than themselves, they are getting a notification 
that their ballot was returned. They can also check online. 
They can, there is a ballot-status tracker that is available on 
vote.pa.gov, and they could, of course, call our office, as 
well, to find out if their ballot had been received.
    The other thing that this does is it actually removes the 
voter from the poll book when their ballot has been returned. 
So, when a person presents at their polling location, they have 
to sign the poll book to indicate that they are there and 
verify their address, et cetera but their name is actually 
removed from the poll book and put on a separate list so that 
poll workers cannot make a further mistake by enabling someone 
to vote twice.
    So, if the voter has not yet returned their ballot, they 
would have to surrender their ballot, but if they have already 
returned their ballot it is updated in several different areas.
    Representative Scanlon. A couple of people have mentioned 
the cost of elections and I do want to comment upon the fact 
that the cost of elections has been added to by frivolous 
lawsuits, whether challenging without evidence, the veracity of 
the elections or demanding audits. I think the Pennsylvania 
Legislature has already spent over a half million dollars 
seeking an audit of the 2020 election. But audits are already 
built into the system, aren't they, Secretary?
    Ms. Chapman. Yes, so I just want to say on the lawsuit 
front, you know, we have spent around $30 million defending 
lawsuits. So, it is definitely----
    Representative Scanlon. Taxpayer dollars.
    Ms. Chapman. Yes. So, it is definitely a significant cost.
    But there are audits. In Pennsylvania, there is a 2 percent 
audit that is required by statute. We have piloted risk-
limiting audits in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and by 
November, every county will be required to have a 
precertification post-election, precertification, risk-limiting 
audit.
    Representative Scanlon. Thank you.
    I see my time has expired, I could go on all day, but I 
yield back.
    Representative Butterfield. Thank you, Congresswoman 
Scanlon.
    At this time, the Chair recognizes Congresswoman Madeleine 
Dean for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Dean. Good morning. I am pleased to be here.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for including me in this 
hearing, for inviting me to participate.
    And thank all of you for the testimony you have brought 
forward. I think I will start locally. I am a Montgomery County 
person. I represent the Fourth Congressional District.
    Congratulations, and thank you, all of you, actually, for 
the seriousness, with which you take this issue, and you take 
your work in Montgomery County.
    Could you, Ms. Sawyer, give us an idea, pre-Act 87 
participation versus post-Act 77 participation. Do we have some 
data on the numbers of folks who vote?
    Ms. Sawyer. We sure do. Again, all of this information is 
available for anybody to check on our website. You can see 
past-voter participation.
    But when we look at, let's take 2021, as an example, so 
that is, that was not a presidential election, it was a 
municipal election and we saw it almost doubled, our voter 
turnout percentage from 2017.
    Ms. Dean. 2017, yes.
    Ms. Sawyer. So, we saw almost twice the amount of people 
voted going from about a 14 percent voter turnout to an almost 
28 percent voter turnout, just in the 2021 general election.
    When you look at the in-person numbers from the 2021 
general election, you can see that they are in line with where 
they were in 2017, so that boost came from more people 
participating by mail.
    Ms. Dean. It really helps. And I thank Commissioner Ken 
Lawrence for heading the elections bureau.
    Madam Secretary, same idea. In Pennsylvania, can you give 
us some comparisons pre-77 and after-77 participation?
    Ms. Chapman. I don't have those numbers at my fingertips, 
but I can definitely provide those to you after.
    Ms. Dean. Would you generally say an increase in voter 
participation?
    Ms. Chapman. Yes, I mean 2020 was the largest voter 
participation we have seen. So, there definitely has been an 
increase in participation. You know, we have seen, when it 
comes to mail balloting, I gave those numbers this morning: 
850,000 requested, 4.7 million to date.
    So, yes, people are using it. They then are voting via 
mail. They are voting to some record numbers than have in the 
past.
    Ms. Dean. I have to say that just yesterday, I dropped mine 
in the dropbox in Norristown. Very secure. And so, I thank the 
whole system for working so diligently.
    Dr. Duvall-Flynn, you said that this is, and I am 
paraphrasing, probably the most pressing issue of our time. Can 
you tell us from your deep experience in elections, and in 
voter participation and access to voting, why you say that?
    Dr. Duvall-Flynn. It is the citizen's voice. It is tragic 
in this country that so few people participate because we have 
a minority of America's population setting the lives of a 
majority of our citizens. It is how we choose persons who 
reflect our values and who will work for those things that are 
in our personal interests.
    And to fail to speak your voice through the vote is to put 
yourselves in the hands of other people who may see the world 
differently. So, it is, I have never missed a vote, local or 
Federal, because my parents raised me to do that. It is our 
responsibility to let those who go to represent us know what we 
believe in and what we think is important for society.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you for that.
    I was thinking, I have been thinking a lot about Madeleine 
Albright these days and how she warned, and her life's work was 
about lifting up and protecting democracies and she used to 
repeat a line that her father taught her, which is: Democracies 
are fragile, yet resilient.
    Mr. Geffen, I guess I am going to ask you the 
quintessential question, you are close to it. Many GOP 
candidates are running on election integrity and yet you have 
all spoken to the disinformation, the misinformation and the 
actual regarding of the rule of law, the 60-plus cases across 
this country that found no voter fraud.
    Despite that fact, do you have any idea why the myth of the 
stolen election persists?
    Mr. Geffen. It is a convenient myth. It is a myth that some 
people feel benefits them electorally.
    But one thing that struck me as a lawyer participating in 
much of this litigation has been how different people sound 
inside a courtroom or outside a courtroom. For example, I had 
the opportunity to be in a courtroom in Williamsport, 
Pennsylvania, in November 2020 when Mayor Giuliani appeared as 
a lawyer for the Trump campaign. And this was the same Rudy 
Giuliani who, just a few days away, was at the Four Seasons 
Total Landscaping in Philadelphia, presiding over a press 
conference with wild allegations of fraud.
    In the courtroom, he told the judge, this isn't a fraud 
case. And that is because there are rules and accountability 
when you are in a courtroom. If you are a lawyer talking to a 
judge or if you are a witness who has been sworn in, there are 
consequences for you if you misstate the truth.
    And in that situation, it appears he may have crossed the 
line and still managed to get himself in trouble. But it is 
striking how different the tune sounds when the people who 
allege fraud are put in a courtroom and when there are 
consequences for lying.
    Ms. Dean. Thank God, they do actually respect taking the 
oath to tell the truth.
    And I know I am out of time, but Mr. Schmidt, why does the 
stolen election persist?
    And thank you for your extraordinary service.
    Mr. Schmidt. No, thank--it is nothing to thank.
    I was a public servant at the time and every public servant 
across the country, you know, did the right thing in those 
circumstances. So, I always kind of, strangely, I seem 
ungrateful, but I kind of recoil whenever I hear it, because 
what else, like, what would we have done? Would we have lied? 
Which is completely the reason why all of this is happening to 
begin with right now.
    The misinformation and disinformation, the allegations of 
voter fraud that is widespread, when in reality, it is rare. It 
is easy to detect. And has not had any impact on any election 
that I am aware of, statistically, least of all, the 2020 
presidential election, which wasn't even close.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you.
    Mr. Schmidt. It was more than 80,000 votes in Pennsylvania.
    To add very briefly to what Ben just said, you know, not 
only is going to court a ``put up or shut up'' moment, but most 
of those judges were Republican judges, some of whom were 
appointed by the former President Trump. And all of those cases 
were dismissed.
    And in the one federal case with Judge Matt Braun, were 
dismissed, you know, at very, with a lengthy decision that 
excoriated them for filing this thing with no evidence of 
anything that they were talking about whatsoever.
    Ms. Dean. I thank you----
    Mr. Schmidt. So, we have the courts to rely on, and while 
we have election directors across the country who held fast in 
the face of this attack, importantly, we had the institutions 
of the Judicial Branch stay nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and make 
the right decisions when faced with allegations with no 
evidence at all.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you.
    And thank you, Mr. Chairman, I know my time is well 
expired.
    Representative Butterfield. All right. The gentlelady 
yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes.
    To each of our panelists, and I understand that the 
Secretary had to step away, and we, in her absence, we thank 
her very much for her testimony today, but to the other four 
witnesses, what is the one thing, one key thing that you think 
Congress should do to improve access to the ballot for all of 
your fellow Pennsylvanian citizens? One thing we can do or 
should do.
    Let's start with Ms. Sawyer.
    Ms. Sawyer. Thank you for that question.
    I think that for Pennsylvanians, and networking as I do 
with my fellow Election Directors across the Commonwealth, the 
funding is probably the largest challenge that most counties 
face. I am fortunate in Montgomery that my Department is well-
funded, I say ``my Department,''--our team is well-funded but I 
know that that is a struggle for many other counties across the 
Commonwealth.
    Being able to hire the appropriate amount of staff, being 
able to invest in the infrastructure needed, not just 
technology-wise, just for mailsorters, things that would not, 
things that would help kind of give that digital security, 
along with the human aspect of, there is human checking 
everything, but there is also a machine that works in tandem 
with us to help ensure that what we are saying is correct and 
vice-versa.
    So, that kind of being able to bring that dual check-and-
balance into every area would require funding and equal funding 
for our counties.
    Representative Butterfield. All right. Let's try Dr. 
Duvall-Flynn. Dr. Duvall-Flynn, what is one thing you think we 
can do to improve access?
    Dr. Duvall-Flynn. I have to say that it was an obscene 
afront, not only to Pennsylvanians, but to this country, to 
vote down the Voting Rights Act and give us Juneteenth. We, it 
was a slap in the face of every citizen to say, you can go have 
a party, but you can't vote.
    So, I would say the legislation that guarantees the right 
to vote for every person in this country, Pennsylvanians 
included, is the most important thing.
    Representative Butterfield. All right.
    Mr. Geffen.
    Mr. Geffen. I am glad that Dr. Duvall-Flynn mentioned the 
John Lewis Voting Rights Act to restore the Voting Rights Act 
to full strength.
    I would also urge Congress to pass the For the People Act, 
H.R. 1, a whole suite of reforms that would set baseline for 
fair and free elections across the country, and for 
Pennsylvania, in particular, it would ensure that voters here 
have access to same-day voter registration and automatic voter 
registration. Those are already implemented in many other 
states; they are successful tools for increasing access to the 
franchise. And by nationalizing that, as a basic standard for 
states, including Pennsylvania, the For the People Act would 
make great strides.
    Representative Butterfield. And, finally, Mr. Schmidt.
    Mr. Schmidt. I would say that one reason why misinformation 
and disinformation has been so, those efforts have been so 
successful in spreading it is because, like in Philadelphia, 
New Jersey is across the river and Delaware is right next door, 
and each state is really running elections their own way. And 
there is certainly room for that because there is a big 
difference between states and a big difference within states, 
county to county, but some basic, uniform election requirements 
for access for every state and every county across the country, 
I think would go a long way to doing that. I know there has 
been legislation related to that and I would hope it would be 
successful and not held back by putting in everything else that 
everyone would want.
    The other one is a preventive thing when it comes to fixing 
any confusion about the electoral count and the Electoral 
College and I know that legislation is also being considered 
but we want to minimize opportunities for misinformation, and 
we want to minimize opportunities to overturn an election not 
through some fraudulent votes, but through a concerted effort 
by bad faith actors to not count our voters' votes.
    Representative Butterfield. Let me thank all of you for 
your responsiveness.
    And just a moment ago, Mr. Geffen made reference to H.R. 1 
and H.R. 4, as those two pieces of legislation are very near 
and dear to this Subcommittee. We have worked very hard over 
the last few months to get it to the finish line, but we are 
not giving up. We have passed both of those pieces of 
legislation in the House, and we are now trying to find some 
method of, and some manner, of getting it passed in the Senate.
    And so, Dr. Duvall-Flynn, let me associate myself with your 
remarks, as well. It was very disappointing that we have not 
been able to get it passed, but I want to promise you that 
Democrats are continuing to fight to get the John Lewis Voting 
Rights Advancement Act passed and the For the People Act 
passed.
    The Voting Rights Act has transformed American politics and 
we are on a good trajectory. The Supreme Court set us back in 
2013 when they disabled Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, by 
calling on Congress to update the formula. But hopefully we are 
going to get that formula updated and we are going to continue 
our efforts to protect the right to vote.
    And so, I thank all of you for your testimony. This has 
been a great discussion this afternoon. And our panelists, you 
have just been wonderful and just thank you so much.
    And my colleagues, you have been great, as well. Let's just 
keep fighting, let's keep pushing, and let's keep representing 
the people that elect us every 2 years.
    I look forward to working with my colleagues in Congress to 
ensure that every voter can freely and fairly exercise their 
right to vote.
    So, before gaveling the Committee down, is there anything 
further from any of my, either of my colleagues?
    Mr. Aguilar, starting with you, anything further?
    Mr. Aguilar. No, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your leadership 
in taking these roundtables. You have gone around the country 
in-person and virtual to hear people where they are and to hear 
folks who are implementing these laws, the importance of where 
we are today.
    So, thanks again, to our panelists and colleagues for 
joining.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, Mr. Aguilar.
    And I assume you got the email a few minutes ago that we 
may be here very late tonight. We are going to have to deal 
with Ukraine and some other very important issues, so I hope 
you are in town----
    Mr. Aguilar. Yes.
    Representative Butterfield [continuing]. And I look forward 
to seeing you this evening.
    Anything further from either one of my Pennsylvania 
colleagues?
    Representative Scanlon. I just wanted to thank all of our 
witnesses for appearing today; they were really wonderful. And 
as we have discussed throughout the day, the impact of 
disinformation on our elections is corrosive. It is really nice 
to have the opportunity with you, with the folks who are 
actually working on the ground and know what is happening, to 
set the record straight, so thank you.
    Representative Butterfield. Thank you.
    Ms. Dean. I will just echo that thanks.
    To you, as representative of a whole host of thousands of 
people across this Commonwealth and, of course, many others 
across the country, who do the important work of administering 
our elections, counting our elections, making sure every voice 
and vote is counted, and then ensuring that in a court of law, 
there are challenges to the disinformation and misinformation 
campaigns. So, sincere thanks to all of you.
    Representative Butterfield. And thank you, Madeleine.
    All right. All has been said.
    This concludes today's roundtable. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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