[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE NOT ENOUGH:
HOW MASS SHOOTINGS HARM COMMUNITIES,
LOCAL ECONOMIES, AND ECONOMIC GROWTH
=======================================================================
HYBRID HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JULY 19, 2022
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
Serial No. 117-95
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
48-471 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina,
NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York BILL POSEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
AL GREEN, Texas BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri ANN WAGNER, Missouri
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado ANDY BARR, Kentucky
JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
BILL FOSTER, Illinois FRENCH HILL, Arkansas
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio TOM EMMER, Minnesota
JUAN VARGAS, California LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
AL LAWSON, Florida WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam TED BUDD, North Carolina
CINDY AXNE, Iowa TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
RITCHIE TORRES, New York BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts LANCE GOODEN, Texas
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan VAN TAYLOR, Texas
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania PETE SESSIONS, Texas
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina
JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas
NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts
Charla Ouertatani, Staff Director
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
AL GREEN, Texas Chairman
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri TOM EMMER, Minnesota, Ranking
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina Member
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina,
NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia, Vice Vice Ranking Member
Chair RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on:
July 19, 2022................................................ 1
Appendix:
July 19, 2022................................................ 27
WITNESSES
Tuesday, July 19, 2022
Brodeur, Abel, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa......... 4
Brown, Byron W., Mayor, City of Buffalo, New York................ 5
Burd-Sharps, Sarah, Senior Director of Research, Everytown for
Gun Safety Support Fund........................................ 6
Ingram, Brian, Founder and CEO, Purpose Restaurants.............. 9
Singh, Ruchi, Assistant Professor, Terry College of Business,
University of Georgia.......................................... 8
APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Brodeur, Abel................................................ 28
Brown, Byron W............................................... 79
Burd-Sharps, Sarah........................................... 82
Ingram, Brian................................................ 87
Singh, Ruchi................................................. 90
Additional Material Submitted for the Record
Green, Hon. Al:
Buffalo Niagara Partnership--Personal Statement from La'Shea
Cretain of El Cajon, California............................ 98
Creative Investment Research report, ``Projected Impact of
Gun Laws on Corporate Profits in Texas''................... 99
Everytown Research & Policy report, ``The Economic Cost of
Gun Violence''............................................. 102
Garcia, Hon. Sylvia:
Report of the Texas House of Representatives, Investigative
Committee on the Robb Elementary Shooting.................. 110
THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE NOT ENOUGH:
HOW MASS SHOOTINGS HARM COMMUNITIES,
LOCAL ECONOMIES, AND ECONOMIC GROWTH
----------
Tuesday, July 19, 2022
U.S. House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Oversight
and Investigations,
Committee on Financial Services,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:03 p.m., in
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Al Green
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Green, Cleaver, Tlaib,
Garcia of Illinois, Garcia of Texas; Emmer, Mooney, and
Timmons.
Ex officio present: Representative Waters.
Also present: Representative Axne.
Chairman Green. The Subcommittee on Oversight and
Investigations will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
recess of the subcommittee at any time. Also, without
objection, members of the full Financial Services Committee who
are not members of the subcommittee are authorized to
participate in today's hearing.
Today's hearing is entitled, ``Thoughts and Prayers Are Not
Enough: How Mass Shootings Harm Communities, Local Economies,
and Economic Growth.''
I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening
statement.
Friends, when innocent children are being mass murdered in
schools, thoughts and prayers are not enough to assure parents
that children will come home safely from school. When
worshippers are mass murdered in places of worship, thoughts
and prayers are not enough to protect worshipers while
worshipping. When shoppers are mass murdered in marketplaces,
thoughts and prayers are not enough to prevent future
marketplace mass murders and the consequences that follow. This
year alone, we have had 354 mass shootings in 200 days,
including 16 mass murders, according to the Gun Violence
Archive.
Friends, it has become painfully clear that a good guy with
a gun to take out a bad guy with a gun, the kill or be killed
philosophy, is not the solution. And just as we must concern
ourselves with saving lives, we must also concern ourselves
with the impact on the quality of life after a mass shooting.
I thank Mayor Brown for being with us today. The tragic
mass shooting at the Tops Food Store in his hometown of
Buffalo, New York, had an immediate impact on the community it
serves. The Tops Friendly Markets store, once the hub of
commerce within his community, was forced to shut down for 2
months. According to the Buffalo Niagara Partnership, a chamber
of commerce in the Buffalo area, during those 2 months people
were displaced from jobs, and their community faced a food
accessibility challenge.
It is important to understand the impact that mass
shootings have on unemployment. Research has shown increases in
unemployment by almost 2 percent in areas that have experienced
mass shootings. Mass shootings also have been shown to impact
home values. Research has shown that mass shootings can lead to
a decrease in area housing prices of up to 3 percent. Mass
shootings at schools have been shown to cause a decline in home
values of up to nearly 8 percent within that school district.
This impact occurs because the school where a mass shooting
occurs might then be considered unsafe or stigmatized. Families
might be less inclined to move to that school district, and
other families might choose to leave. Teachers become more
inclined to leave the district.
In summary, mass shootings can have a devastating impact on
communities. They hurt businesses, causing resignations,
layoffs, litigation costs, and increased costs of insurance.
Property values decrease and the tax base erodes, leading to
cuts in fire, police, and sanitation departments. My hope is
that by examining these issues today, we might come to
understand how mass shootings have a greater harmful impact
than we previously knew, and I trust that this understanding
will cause us to strive to do even more to prevent mass
shootings. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on this
urgent matter.
At this time, I now recognize the ranking member of the
subcommittee, Mr. Emmer, for 5 minutes for an opening
statement.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to the
witnesses for coming to speak with us today. I look forward to
hearing your testimony.
Cities and communities across the country are dealing with
a surge in violence. In fact, over the past 2 years, the United
States has seen an increased rate of all types of violence and
crime. In 2021, 68 out of 70 of the largest United States
police jurisdictions saw increases in violent crime, which
includes homicide, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. More
specifically, we are seeing this rise in crime in cities where
large-scale theft, looting, and robbery are plaguing
communities.
We frequently hear stories of businesses in cities like
Chicago or San Francisco which are forced to relocate, shut
down, or limit their hours to protect their employees and
manage the extra costs of security just to operate every day.
Many businesses, particularly the smallest businesses, are
faced with the wrenching decision of whether to close and
abandon the community or stay and deal with the risks of
remaining open. Those decisions aren't just based on dollars
and cents.
Business owners must consider the safety of their employees
and their customers. When a business closes its doors, the
entire community feels the effect. Jobs are lost. Customers
must find somewhere else to get the things they need. A vacant
storefront invites more criminal activity. The value of homes
in the area goes down, and a community begins to deteriorate.
In the face of such rampant crime, law enforcement,
unfortunately, does not often have the resources necessary to
protect communities, from staffing issues to an ability to
enforce the laws. Democrats were the party of Defund the
Police, and these political attacks against law and order have
depleted law enforcement morale and resources.
Even though our committee does not have jurisdiction over
crime, I welcome the opportunity to discuss how violent crime
affects a community's economy. Our witnesses can help us
understand how violent crime affects local economies and limits
the services that are available to communities across the
country. For many communities, addressing crime and violence
starts with State and local leadership. Soft-on-crime policies
have made matters worse in jurisdictions where crime rates are
highest. The absence of the threat of meaningful prosecution
affects the safety of residents and businesses.
Today, we invited a business owner who has dealt with these
challenges in Minnesota for several years now. Brian Ingram has
managed to keep his restaurant doors open to the community of
St. Paul despite an unbelievable series of crimes against his
business, his employees, and his customers. I think we will all
benefit from hearing his story.
And so again, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding
this hearing today because Americans should never, never feel
this level of unsafety in their own communities. We must return
to a society of law and order. I yield back.
Chairman Green. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize
the Chair of the full Financial Services Committee, the
gentlewoman from California, Chairwoman Waters, for 1 minute.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Chairman Green. To
Mayor Brown and all of the witnesses here today, I thank you
for coming to help us deal with this very difficult and
complicated issue. The first thing I must say is that not all
Democrats have said to defund the police, so let's be clear
about that. From the mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, to
the recent tragedy in Highland Park, Illinois, these horrific
incidents have been far too frequent. In this year alone, there
have been more than 300 mass shootings, devastating families
and communities. The reverberations of loss and grief are felt
long after the last bullet.
Neighborhoods, local businesses, and affected areas
struggle to cope with changing dynamics within the community,
including negative impacts to the housing market, store
closures, additional costs for security, and an unexpected loss
of revenue and employment. I urge my fellow Members of Congress
to stop the bleeding and take action to support healing in
these communities across our great nation. With that, Mr.
Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman Green. The gentlelady yields back.
Today, we welcome the testimony of our distinguished
witnesses: Abel Brodeur, an associate professor at the
University of Ottawa; Byron Brown, the Mayor of the City of
Buffalo, New York; Sarah Burd-Sharps, the senior director of
research at Everytown for Gun Safety; Ruchi Singh, an assistant
professor at Terry College of Business at the University of
Georgia; and Brian Ingram, the founder and CEO of Purpose
Driven Restaurants.
Witnesses are reminded that their oral testimony will be
limited to 5 minutes. You should be able to see a timer that
will indicate how much time you have left. I would ask that you
be mindful of the timer so that we can be respectful of both
the witnesses' and the committee members' time.
And without objection, your written statements will be made
a part of the record.
Mr. Brodeur, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give
an oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF ABEL BRODEUR, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF
OTTAWA
Mr. Brodeur. I would like to thank the subcommittee for
holding this hearing and having me talk to you about this
topic.
I am an economist, and I am a professor at the University
of Ottawa, and in my research, I study the economic
consequences of violent crime, gang-related crimes, domestic
terror attacks, and mass shootings. And today, I want to talk
to you about the economic consequences of mass shootings in the
United States.
In a study, our senior staff looked at mass shootings from
2000 to 2013, talking about hundreds of mass shootings, and we
are interested in documenting what happens to the local
economies. And what we find is that after a mass shooting, the
consequences are tremendous and permanent. We find a decrease
in employment of about 2 percent, a decrease in earnings of 2.5
percent, a decrease in housing prices, and also a decrease in
wages, potentially due to a decrease in productivity, which I
will come back to.
Overall, we find that these communities, these counties
that were hit by mass shootings lost about 100,000 jobs in the
period of 2000 to 2013, so a lot of jobs, and this raises the
question of why? What are the mechanisms through which mass
shootings can affect these local economies, and we look at
different channels. One of the first channels that we look at
is consumer sentiments or the way people in these communities
feel about their economy, about local businesses. And we find
in the months and years after mass shooting, these become more
pessimistic, negative.
We also look at the role of the media. I have looked at the
national media coverage of all of these mass shootings myself
for ABC, CBS, and NBC. And what we find is every single minute
of coverage of these mass shooting exacerbates dramatically the
consequences on local economies. And also, many studies now are
showing that additional media coverage leads to more copycats
and other shootings. We also look at which type of industry is
affected, and we find it is mostly the private sector, the
service industry, and manufacturing. Many different sectors,
and many different businesses are affected.
Our findings potentially lead to different policy
prescriptions. The first one I want to talk about is media
coverage. I think we need to have some sort of policy that
limits the type of media coverage of these mass shootings, a
John Doe type of policy, meaning that we should refrain from
talking about the perpetrators, their identity, their motives,
and the strategies used. Everything is available online easily
on Wikipedia. In terms of other types of policies that will be
important, I think we need to think about why productivity goes
down. And one of the things we did was look at a survey from
the CDC that asked hundreds of thousands of Americans every
year about their health, their mental health, their physical
health, and many other questions, and we matched this to the
mass shooting data. And what we found is, of course, mass
shootings decreased mental health in the short run, but also in
the long run.
And we find that respondents in these communities
increasingly report for months and years that they are not able
to do their normal activities, like working and taking care of
their children, and these effects are permanent for years. And
this explains why productivity potentially goes down or
earnings go down. They go down because jobs are lost, but also
because productivity is going down. People are missing work,
missing days of work and are less productive at work. So, we
need public policy to provide financial support, but also
medical support, not only in the short run, but also
potentially in the medium- and long-run, helping these
communities financially and providing them medical care.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Brodeur can be found on page
28 of the appendix.]
Chairman Green. Thank you very much, Mr. Brodeur.
Mr. Brown, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF BYRON W. BROWN, MAYOR, CITY OF BUFFALO, NEW YORK
Mr. Brown. Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, Chairwoman
Waters, Congressman Cleaver, and members of the House Financial
Services Committee, I am honored to be here today to discuss
the harmful impact of mass shootings on communities, local
economies, and economic growth.
On Saturday, May 14, 2022, the unthinkable happened in
Buffalo, New York. Our family members, friends, and neighbors
were simply going about their business, grocery shopping, when,
without warning, they were interrupted by deadly gunfire. An
outsider opened fire and killed 10 innocent people and injured
3 others. It was a moment that changed our community forever.
Fifty-two days after the devastating shooting, we reopened the
Tops Supermarket. However, nothing we do will ever repair the
heartache for the families who lost loved ones, but we will
always stand united with them. In the City Of Good Neighbors,
we are a loving and resilient community, a community that will
always remember. We will never forget.
This horrific tragedy highlighted many issues that have
impacted our community, and Black and Brown communities
nationwide. Across our country, we have seen over a century of
underfunding by the Federal Government in Black and Brown
neighborhoods. This has led to unacceptable increases in gun
violence, segregation, crime, poor health outcomes, and
generational poverty. These factors made Buffalo a target for
the May 14th shooter, whose stated goal was to kill as many
Black people as possible.
Every mass shooting has a significant economic impact.
However, the mass shooting in Buffalo was different. It was an
act of domestic terrorism fueled by racism and White supremacy.
This was perceived to be not only an attack on Black Buffalo,
but an attack on Black America. In just the 2 weeks after the
shooting, City departments--police, fire, and sanitation--spent
over $500,000 of unbudgeted dollars on overtime and other
related services. That amount has continued to significantly
increase as City Government continues to play a vital role in
our community's healing process and public safety needs.
Gun violence has a lasting and negative impact on
survivors, and experiencing these events in childhood has a
lifelong impact on the psychological well-being and labor
market participation of those involved. The May 14th shooting
in Buffalo will impact an entire generation of children. This
event has the potential to harm Buffalo's already economically-
disadvantaged Black community and further grow inequality. We
must do whatever we can to combat this and provide the East
Buffalo community with the funding for services such as
counseling, educational enrichment, and lost wages. There
should be Federal funding to address the economic damage to
communities that suffer mass shootings.
I applaud President Biden and the bipartisan group of
Members of Congress for supporting the Safer Communities Act.
While this law will save lives, it doesn't go far enough. I
urge you to work with the Biden Administration on reinstating
an assault weapons ban. Assault weapons are exceptionally
deadly firearms that are commonplace in mass shootings. An
assault weapons ban may have prevented the May 14th massacre. I
also urge you to ensure that the long-ignored and underfunded
Black and Brown communities, like East Buffalo, have the
funding and support that they need to ensure recovery from this
tragedy and to prevent and treat the trauma of that violence
that has held back communities of color for generations. In
addition, anti-Black hate crime legislation must be passed to
address White supremacy and remove these hateful ideologies
from our society.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mayor Brown can be found on page
79 of the appendix.]
Chairman Green. Thank you, Mayor Brown.
Ms. Burd-Sharps, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to
give an oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF SARAH BURD-SHARPS, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH,
EVERYTOWN FOR GUN SAFETY SUPPORT FUND
Ms. Burd-Sharps. Good afternoon, Chairman Green, Ranking
Member Emmer, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for
the opportunity to share our recent work on the economic cost
of gun violence. It is an honor to appear before you to
testify. My name is Sarah Burd-Sharps, and I am the senior
director of research at the Everytown for Gun Safety Support
Fund, the largest gun violence prevention organization in the
United States.
With tragic and numbing regularity, we hear about shootings
on our streets, in grocery stores, schools, hospitals, and too
many other places. Every day in America, roughly 300 people
join the toll of those killed and injured with guns. Today's
focus is on mass shootings, of which there were 27 in which 4
or more people were killed, excluding the shooter, over the
course of 2021, resulting in 136 fatalities. But I want to be
clear. While devastating, costly, and fear-inducing far beyond
the location where they occur, they make up less than 1 percent
of all gun deaths and injuries.
Without a doubt, the human cost of gun violence is the most
devastating. No dollar amount could ever fully convey the cost
for families and survivors of gun violence, but examining the
series of economic consequences is essential as well for
understanding just how extensive and expensive this crisis is.
Our hope is that this research will help guide you and your
colleagues as you weigh policies and actions to build safer
communities. We worked with a leading health economist
estimating the cost of injuries in the U.S. today, as well as
with Federal datasets on gun deaths and hospitalizations, and
extensive peer-reviewed research to understand these costs.
The economic consequence to our nation of America's
unrelenting gun violence epidemic is $557 billion a year, year
after year. The government share of these costs paid for by
taxpayers is $12.6 billion a year. That is nearly $35 million
each day that could instead be invested in essential public
goods like education, workforce development, and building
healthier, safer, and more sustainable communities. These
figures are conservative estimates. They represent the lifetime
costs associated with gun violence. Starting at the scene of a
shooting are things like emergency medical care, and police
investigations, continuing on to the long-term health care and
criminal justice costs necessary. And they also include
estimates for pain, suffering, and the loss of well-being of
victims and their families.
Our report released today provides full details, but our
estimates don't even begin to include the wider ripple effects,
and those wider costs aren't marginal. As you just heard from
Mayor Brown, and if you talk to any school superintendent or
pediatrician in a town that has experienced a shooting, they
can produce a long list of costs that extend far beyond the
immediate items we are counting: costs to address the trauma of
children afraid to go back to school; neighborhood businesses
and home values; and the larger reverberations on all of those
who live in a neighborhood where gun violence happens or who
share an identity with someone who is the target of a shooting.
While not everyone directly experiences gun violence, we
all pay an economic price for it. The annual cost of gun
violence in the U.S. is $1,698 for every resident. However, in
States with stronger gun laws and fewer deaths and injuries, we
found the economic toll to be less than half this amount.
Policies that save lives also save on costs. While we are so
grateful for the actions Congress took recently to address gun
violence, there is still much more we can do. Half of the
deadliest mass shootings over the past 5 years are committed by
a shooter under age 21. The Senate urgently followed the
House's lead and passed legislation to raise the age to
purchase all firearms to 21. Further, the recent tragic mass
shootings revealed a litany of advanced warning signs. The
Senate should pass the Federal Extreme Risk Protection Order
Act, which would create a civil process that would allow loved
ones and law enforcement to intervene when they see the signs
across the country.
Our research clearly shows we are spending precious funds
on an epidemic that brings nothing of benefit and plenty of
heartbreak and shattered lives. We have placed ourselves at a
severe economic disadvantage in the globally-competitive
economy with these enormous outlays.
Thank you again, Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, and
members of the subcommittee for allowing me to testify today.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Burd-Sharps can be found on
page 82 of the appendix.]
Chairman Green. Thank you, Ms. Burd-Sharps.
Ms. Singh, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF RUCHI SINGH, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, TERRY COLLEGE OF
BUSINESS, UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA
Ms. Singh. Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, and
members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to
testify before you today. I am honored to contribute to the
discussion on this important topic. I am Ruchi Singh, assistant
professor of real estate at the Terry College of Business at
the University of Georgia. I have conducted academic research
on real estate economics and the economics of crime since 2016.
I will be drawing today on the findings of my own research and
on evidence from the relevant academic literature on mass
shootings and gun violence. My comments today are about the
economic effects of shooting, specifically in the context of
schools and about considerations that should be part of
devising appropriate policies. I am currently working on a
paper studying the effects of mass shootings in schools on
residential real estate prices.
A number of academic studies have shown that crime, in
general, impacts house prices negatively. This is probably
unsurprising to most people. However, a mass shooting is not a
typical type of crime. It is unlikely to be repeated at the
same place. Nevertheless, my co-authors and I found that house
prices in the affected school attendance area declined
following such an incident. Our preliminary estimates show that
mass shootings at schools lead to an average decline of 2.4
percent in house prices over the next 4 years. We also find
evidence suggesting that the negative impact on house prices
starts to fade away around 7 years after the incident.
In the study, we define a mass shooting as an incident with
three or more victims who were either injured or killed,
excluding the shooter. Moreover, if one considers all episodes
involving the discharge of a firearm in schools, the number is
substantial. Starting from the Columbine incident in 1999, and
continuing through May 2022, an estimated 311,000 students at
schools have been exposed to gun violence during school hours.
A number of academic studies have shown that students who are
exposed to such shooting episodes suffer significant negative
consequences. For example, a recent study co-authored by
researchers from the University of Texas at Austin,
Northwestern University, and Stanford University found that
exposure to a school shooting leads to higher rates of chronic
absenteeism and to an increased probability that students
repeat grades over the next 2 years.
These students also experienced negative long-term impacts:
they were less likely to graduate from high school; less likely
to enroll in college; and less likely to graduate from college.
Moreover, they also had lower earnings, and they were less
likely to be employed at the age of 24 to 26. Other researchers
have also found similar evidence of lower test scores and
increased absenteeism as a result of exposure to a school
shooting incident. Furthermore, there is evidence that the
students experience a deterioration in mental health and
increased antidepressant usage. More generally, being exposed
to violent crimes, including those that may not involve guns,
has also been shown to negatively affect students' educational
achievement and their long-term outcomes.
I now turn to things to think about in terms of policies to
reduce school shootings. The finding of another research paper
of mine suggests that one way to reduce violent crime around
schools is by placing civilian guards. Specifically, my co-
authors and I analyzed the effectiveness of the Chicago Public
Schools Safe Passage Program. This program draws upon parents
and other adults from the local community to act as civilian
guards around schools during arrival and dismissal times. We
find that these extra eyes on the street reduce crime,
especially violent crime around schools. Moreover, the program
resulted in improved school attendance.
In thinking about ways to reduce the number of school
shootings, policymakers need to be aware that there are
different kinds of such incidents. For example, community
policing is likely to reduce targeted and crime-related
shootings, but it will probably not be effective in reducing
indiscriminate shootings. Therefore, policies aiming to reduce
school shootings will have to use multipronged approaches.
Thank you. I look forward to your comments and questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Singh can be found on page
90 of the appendix.]
Chairman Green. Thank you, Ms. Singh.
I now recognize Mr. Ingram for 5 minutes to give an oral
presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN INGRAM, FOUNDER AND CEO, PURPOSE RESTAURANTS
Mr. Ingram. Thank you, Chairman Green, Chairwoman Waters,
and members of the subcommittee. My name is Brian Ingram, and I
own a collection of restaurants in Minnesota. I thank you for
this opportunity to share some of my experiences over the last
couple of years.
My entire life has been dedicated to food and coming
together over a meal. A few years ago, I had a vision of
opening restaurants that not only would serve our guests, but
also serve our community. We made a commitment to donate 3
percent of our total sales back to those in need within our
community. In 2019, my wife and I formed Purpose Driven
Restaurants. We opened a concept called, ``hope.''
Right before COVID hit, we chose to shut our restaurants
down and serve our community, and that ended up being about
300,000 free meals, and 2 million pounds of food, not to
mention all the outreach we did within shelters. And I don't
say any of this to say, look at what we have done. I would say,
look at what we have done as a community. Sarah and I would
have run out of money instantly when we were doing this. It
took our community standing with us to move forward. We stood
with our city when George Floyd was tragically killed. We fed
protesters. We fed our National Guard. We fed our police
officers and first responders. As a person of faith, I believe
that we are called to feed all of God's people.
As businesses began to reopen in the Twin Cities, crime
began to escalate. We saw it over and over: our windows being
shot out in our restaurants; criminals using the parking lot of
one of my restaurants to be a place where they would kind of
gather, and then they would head out to loot and destroy our
cities. I would make calls to 9-1-1, and we would be told that
they have no officers to respond. Crime has now become a daily
part of life. All seven of my restaurants and my office have
been robbed numerous times on many occasions by the same
criminal. The same criminal would be released within 24 hours
of robbing my restaurant and then show back up a few weeks
later to rob me again.
The lack of law enforcement's ability to respond--we would
share footage of these folks breaking into our restaurants.
These folks would walk in very lackadaisical. They had no worry
that the police were responding or that they were even coming.
I have watched them walk into our restaurants with no fear,
search out our employee break rooms, steal purses, steal car
keys, and then head out and steal that very car as employees
follow them and the thieves basically dared them to do
something.
I have shown up at our restaurant, oftentimes arriving
before the police, because we don't have enough officers to
patrol our city. I have had to walk in harm's way with people
in our building. Far too often, I have sat with our employees
if they have been attacked as they are trying to go home with
their hard-earned tips. I have sat with our guests who have
been carjacked. Our late-night traffic in our restaurants has
dropped off about 50 percent because we no longer feel safe
being open after 9:00, 10:00 at night, so a restaurant that
used to be open until 1:00 a.m. now closes at 10:00 p.m..
Our customers are choosing suburban dining over fears of
violence in our city. We are now looking at locations outside
of the Twin Cities. Minneapolis has become a ghost town. I was
recently offered a restaurant in Minneapolis for one penny, and
I said no to it. The violence in our city--we have paid for
funerals for young kids who have been struck by gun violence 7
times in the last year. I am heartbroken by the mass shootings
and unrelenting violence going on around our country. I am even
more heartbroken about things like fentanyl that are happening
in our city.
I lost my kitchen manager a month ago to an accidental
fentanyl overdose. We had his drug dealer's name, and his phone
number. He texted him and said, ``Something is wrong with my
drugs.'' He said, ``You will be fine.'' He died that night.
Forty-thousand people have died from fentanyl in the last year-
and-a-half. That is 109 people a day. That is a mass murderer.
I am asking you to address the real problems. Criminals
fear nothing in our cities. They know responses will be slow.
They know that if they are caught, they will be back out on the
street, typically within 24 hours. Our hope is that all of you
will come together and figure out how we can stop crime in our
cities, before our cities are gone. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ingram can be found on page
87 of the appendix.]
Chairman Green. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Ingram.
I now recognize the Chair of the full Financial Services
Committee, Chairwoman Waters, for 5 minutes for questions.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you so very much, Mr. Green. As I
listen to these witnesses, it is so painful to see and
understand the gun violence, not only the responsibility of
those with guns to not allow them to be used by children, to
put them in safe places, to not own guns, necessarily. As a
matter of fact, I am a person who does not believe that the
Second Amendment guarantees you the right to have a gun, and I
think that the Congress of the United States is divided on the
gun issue.
There are so many different ways that we have tried to deal
with the issue of gun violence, and we don't have the votes to
get rid of automatic weapons. We don't have the votes to get
rid of weapons that have been used in war, that have found
their way into a police station. We don't have the votes,
basically, to make this country safe. And these mass killings
are absolutely painful. To see children and individuals shot
down and killed for no reason other than someone does not like
the color of their skin, or someone is mentally ill, or someone
wants to rob them. All of those reasons are totally
unacceptable.
Mr. Green, you are taking a look at another aspect of this
violence, dealing with what it does to the community, what it
does to businesses, and how those people who work so very hard
to strengthen our communities are basically undermined when
these mass shootings take place. People move. Businesses close
down. People are afraid. And so, I took one issue that I wanted
to deal with today and it is to talk about how some of these
guns are purchased.
The gun that was used in the Uvalde, Texas, school shooting
was sold by a firearms manufacturer that offers loan
installment payment plans to purchase their products under the
consumer finance company, Credova. These buy now, pay later
financing programs make guns more accessible to purchase, only
requiring a simple credit check with interest-free loans paid
back in 3 to 4 monthly installments. Fintech loan providers
like Credova are not involved with nor do they have insight
into the background checks conducted by retailers who sell
guns. Credova itself claims on its website that approval takes
seconds for most customers.
As I have said, this is only one small aspect of this
issue. But of course, I think the easier guns are to obtain,
the ways to get them cheaply, the ways for young people to go
on the internet and find ways to purchase and pay later, are
issues with which we are going to have to deal. I wish that all
of you coming here today could leave saying, ``I was at the
Congress of the United States, and I heard that they really are
going to take some serious steps, and they are going to deal
with gun violence.'' But you are not going to leave with that
message today.
The message that you are going to leave with is, ``They
talked a lot about how they are absolutely devastated by the
killings that take place.'' As Mr. Green said, prayers are not
enough. And you are going to leave saying, ``I know that many
of them pray.'' But Mr. Green is right; prayers are not enough.
We all have a role in trying to deal with this violence. The
United States Congress must step up to the plate, and must be
committed to the idea that we could stop this violence and we
could take guns off the street. But it has not happened yet.
For those of you in communities where there are gun
manufacturers, where there are gun stores, I think it makes
good sense for the community to get organized and tell them
that they do not wish to have them in the community. I think it
makes good sense to tell parents that if you see your child
acting very strangely over a period of time, if you know they
have some issues, if you know that you have been ignoring the
fact that they love guns and they spend hours watching violence
on television, et cetera--parents, relatives, everybody has to
step up to the plate and say, this child needs some help. There
is something wrong here, and stop ignoring it. There are so
many ways that all of us must play a part in dealing with the
gun violence.
Thank you for being here today. And thank you, Mr. Green,
for holding this aspect of it, that all of us should not be
able to go to bed at night and rest seeing the violence that is
going on, the lives that are lost, and the businesses that are
destroyed, and the neighborhoods and communities that are
literally torn apart because of it.
I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. Green.
Chairman Green. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes the distinguished ranking member of the
subcommittee, Mr. Emmer, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you again to
our witnesses for appearing before this subcommittee.
Look, crime is running rampant across our country. It is
imperative that Congress focus on the serious, damaging impact
that lawlessness has had on our communities. We must restore
order. As we examine the impact crime has had on local
economies, we are grateful to Mr. Brian Ingram for joining us
today from St. Paul, Minnesota. He is the only business owner
on this witness panel who has firsthand experience in trying to
live and trying to operate a business in a nearly lawless
environment.
Catastrophic crime rates are not unique to the Twin Cities
in Minnesota. Crime is plaguing communities across the United
States, from New York to San Francisco and cities in between.
Americans in urban areas face increases in carjackings, theft,
burglaries, vandalism, and assault. This has led to a
divestment in local economies because safety trumps all other
priorities, and many people cannot safely run a business in
such dangerous conditions. That divestment hits low-income
communities the hardest.
How did we get here, and why is crime running rampant
across the United States? We locked down our citizens for a
year, and stripped them of the in-person activities that help
keep people out of a life of crime: school; extracurriculars;
community engagement; and mental health resources.
Then, Democrats championed a nationwide campaign against
law enforcement, which has made the police force so politically
unpopular that many communities like St. Paul, Minnesota, where
Mr. Ingram lives and runs his businesses, don't have enough
sworn law enforcement officers to protect the community. As we
heard from Mr. Ingram, when residents call 9-1-1, it is not
uncommon to be told that no one can help them.
Mr. Ingram, can you please share with the subcommittee what
changes you had to make to your business to protect your
employees and customers from crime?
Mr. Ingram. Yes. One of the things we have had to do, of
course, is shortening our hours, even bringing in our staff a
little later. We have a breakfast restaurant that used to open
at 6:00 a.m., and now we pushed that back to 7:00 a.m., just
because we wanted it to be light out before our staff would
come in. Our restaurant is closing at 10:00. We have a pub that
would primarily do business late at night. That is now closed.
Security cameras, alarm systems, we have spent so much on those
types of things, but, no, it doesn't deter anybody.
Mr. Emmer. Can you--
Mr. Ingram. The safety stuff we have done has no
deterrence.
Mr. Emmer. Do you have a number for how much these
additional measures have cost you?
Mr. Ingram. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know
that I can even put a number on the sales. We have two new
restaurants. We are reinvesting. Those restaurants we are
planning on not keeping open. That is going to lead into the
millions of dollars until something changes in our city.
Mr. Emmer. Lastly, have other businesses in your community
reacted to the violence?
Mr. Ingram. So many of them are gone, and what you are
seeing so much is in minority parts of the city, restaurants
are closing at a rapid pace. I believe it is 1 in 3 now that
are closing down, and typically, those are in areas that are
underserved. We are seeing restaurants, we are seeing
businesses closed day in and day out, and it continues to grow.
Right now, Minneapolis is a ghost town.
Mr. Emmer. You talked to many restauranteurs like yourself.
Are they experiencing similar issues?
Mr. Ingram. Yes, I believe all of us are--a yarn store
across the street from us has been robbed, and Little Mailbox,
et cetera. It is across-the-board, and there is no business. We
had seven robberies within a year and thought that we were
being targeted. And we went out to our neighborhoods, and
heard, ``Nope, I got robbed yesterday.'' ``No, I got robbed the
day before.'' And nobody seems to want to share that message
and talk about it.
Mr. Emmer. Wow. Thank you for doing it. These catastrophic
levels of crime across this country have made people afraid to
go to work, to eat out with their families, to park their cars
in the street, and simply to just be outside when it is dark.
This is no way to live. But let's be very clear: Democrats have
normalized this lawlessness and demonized law enforcement. As a
result, law enforcement in many of these urban areas, like the
Twin Cities, does not have the resources they need to keep
people and their businesses and property safe. When residents
call 9-1-1 for help, they are often told that no one can come
out.
Mr. Ingram, thank you for your time today. As Democrats
have politicized safety and championed the destructive Defund
the Police movement, your perspective is invaluable as a
business owner doing your best to support your community. I
yield back.
Chairman Green. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman
from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the Chair of our
Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and Insurance,
is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The title for this
hearing, or at least the subtitle is, ``Thoughts and Prayers
Are Not Enough,'' which I agree with politically and
theologically. Moses guided the children of Israel, Hebrews,
today's Jewish people, to the banks of the Red Sea, and he
stood there praying--14, 15 Exodus--praying. And God says to
Moses, shut up, stop praying and start moving. And I did
something last week I don't feel good about, but I just
couldn't do it anymore. When we were asked to stand for
thoughts and prayers in the Chamber after another killing, I
went outside, and I did my own prayers, as I do every evening
at my apartment.
I think it is important for everybody to understand that I
don't know how this explosion of people trying to defund the
police has become so much of a position that I'm not sure is
healthy. I am not saying anything about who has ever said, but
I have heard it from three or four people. It doesn't make
sense, so I don't embrace it.
Mr. Ingram, thank you so much. I saw the news report on
your work and thank you very much for what you are doing in
your community.
Mayor Brown, thank you for being here. You are on center
stage of the American drama as a mayor. I grew up in public
housing, and I got into it with somebody. We were fighting. So,
he picked up a brick, and threw it and it hit me. Close up, you
can see I grew a moustache to hide the stitches; I had 15. And
I have said this to my own children, that if that had happened
today, he wouldn't have hit me with a brick, he would have shot
me. And then, instead of me going to the hospital and coming
back and becoming friends, in the out, I didn't shoot him or
anything else. I don't think I had ever seen a gun, a real live
gun when this happened to me at 14 and 15.
Do you think, Mayor, that Buffalo would be in a better
position if your police department did not have to deal with
the fact that just about everybody they stop is armed, and
everybody they go to deal with, who are messing up the
businesses, are armed?
Mr. Brown. Congressman Cleaver, there are too many guns on
the streets of communities all across the country and in
Buffalo. Our police have had to deal with too many illegal
weapons on the streets. And responding to Ranking Member Emmer,
we did not defund police in the City of Buffalo. In fact, I
have increased the budget for the police department.
With the mass shooting in Buffalo at the Tops Supermarket,
our police responded within 1 minute of the 9-1-1 call going
out. And if not for the quick response of the police and fire
departments, many more lives would have been lost in our
community. Police were able to convince the shooter in Buffalo
to turn himself in and not go back into the store, not go down
the street, and they were outgunned by this individual who had
an assault rifle. The individual was wearing military-grade
body armor. He was encountered in the store by a security
guard, who was a retired 30-year police officer of the Buffalo
Police Department, who got off 11 shots. But because of the
military-grade body armor, they had no effect on this
individual, and he was able to kill the security guard in the
store. But if that security officer had not engaged this White
supremacist shooter, his stated intent in a manifesto that he
left would have been to kill many more people in the community.
So yes, our police are engaged all too often with people
who have illegal weapons. And in many instances, the weapons
start out as legal weapons someplace else and are stolen, they
are then sold, and they become illegal weapons on our streets,
terrifying and harming innocent citizens and tying up our
police department who have to defend the community.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The
gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ingram, first
off, I want to commend you for the phenomenal way you have
served your community through some really difficult times. The
last few years is truly inspiring, and I want to thank my
friend, Ranking Member Emmer, for inviting us up for this
subcommittee today.
The year 2020 was very challenging. It was just one of the
most challenging years we have faced, and there is no reason to
sugarcoat it. The pandemic and the resulting economic downturn
paired with the social unrest happening all at the same time
was rough on all of us, but especially for the Twin Cities.
I want to pick up where Mr. Emmer left off. You talked
about how your businesses had to keep your employees and
customers safe, the cost associated with all of this, and how
your actions compare to other businesses. Can you talk about
how the local government's response has been specifically? I
know many elected district attorneys are reinventing the role
of the prosecutor from a government official who supports and
enforces the rule of law to an official who gets to cherry pick
which laws are worth enforcing.
Mr. Ingram, do you take issue with the fact that some
business owners, like yourself, may be harmed by soft-on-crime
policies, and has this been an issue for the business community
in the Twin Cities?
Mr. Ingram. Thank you for that question. And, yes, I think
many of us are afraid to even talk about violence with the
prosecutors because suddenly it become so politicized, and it
makes us appear to be a certain way. But we have reached out to
the judges, and the prosecutors, and asked, how do you let the
person who robbed me and has a track record--I believe he had
50 priors--out within 24 hours? You don't even give me a heads-
up. I posted on social media pictures of him breaking into my
restaurants. Maybe he is now coming for me and my family
because he is angry with us.
We are petrified, within the Twin Cities, that these
criminals are being released, and we are actively trying to
catch them and posting their photos on social media. And now,
maybe we are the victim another time, for sure, when they come
back to our business and rob us again.
Mr. Timmons. So in that instance, the best practice across
the country is that victim advocates reach out and notify the
victim that the defendant or the alleged offender has been
released. Did that occur?
Mr. Ingram. It did not occur. I believe I was notified
about a week later, and they said, just so you know, this
gentleman is at a halfway house--I believe it was about a mile
from where we live--and then we were notified, and I believe
they said he had an ankle bracelet on.
Mr. Timmons. That is not best practice, and generally
speaking, from my time as a prosecutor, you notify the victim
immediately. And I am sorry you had to deal with that. I hear
from businesses of all shapes and sizes that they can't find
employees. The labor shortage is often their top issue. I
imagine that is the same for you. Can you talk about the issues
you have faced in recruiting and retaining employees, given the
challenges that we have already discussed? Is it harder to get
people to work for you knowing that there is lawlessness and
that the district attorneys are not going to enforce the rule
of law?
Mr. Ingram. Yes. For sure, it is hard to staff our
restaurants. Nobody wants to work late at night. We didn't just
randomly decide to walk away from that business and that
opportunity. It is because employees didn't feel safe. It is
because guests didn't feel safe. The hospitality industry has
been devastated over the last year-and-a-half. And now, we have
employees who are actively leaving because when they walk to a
bus stop, or they get on a Lime scooter and head home, they are
assaulted. We have had employees assaulted on their scooter
when they got on to head home from their night shift. We have
had employees assaulted at subway stations and bus stations. If
you don't feel safe leaving work, you are going to choose not
to work there anymore. You will catch a 9:00 to 5:00 job, or
you will stay on unemployment.
Mr. Timmons. We hear stories all over the country about
cities that are not enforcing the rule of law. Businesses are
just closing up and saying, this isn't worth it. Have you dealt
with that yourself? Have you thought that this isn't worth it?
Mr. Ingram. Yes. We feel very called within our community
to serve our community, and we feel very called to come
together over a meal and bring that back to our communities.
Have I now moved some restaurants to the suburbs because that
is where our guests are moving? We have done that, but we feel
very called to serve our community, and we feel called to be
here and to stand up for our community. If we don't stand now,
and we don't start enforcing the rule of law right now, we are
not going to have a city to return to. So yes, we could leave.
We have thought about it, but what does that do to our
community, and what does it do to the people whom we love and
we want to serve?
Mr. Timmons. Sure. Thank you. I appreciate you being here,
and I think the pendulum swings back often, and we need to
enforce the rule of law. We need to keep people safe. That is
just very basic rule of law and government. With that, Mr.
Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
[No response.]
Chairman Green. Mr. Garcia, you are now recognized for 5
minutes.
[No response.]
Chairman Green. Mr.Garcia, if you can hear me, would you
wave?
[No response.]
Chairman Green. Okay. We understand that you may be having
some technical difficulties. With this understanding, Mr.
Garcia, we will work with you to eliminate those difficulties.
And in the interim, the gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Garcia, who
is also the Vice Chair of our Subcommittee on Diversity and
Inclusion, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Garcia of Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
so much for bringing this very, very critical hearing forward
today. I think it is as the Chairwoman Waters said: Nothing
could be more important these days than trying to go beyond the
prayers and thoughts into real action. And I would hope that
this hearing will result in some proposals that we can put
forward before the Congress because here we are once again to
discuss gun violence, an issue that has devastated our
communities, and our nation, and our families too frequently,
for just far too long. And as we have covered here today, it is
important that we consider long-term impacts of mass shootings
as the initial shock and outrage fades from the public domain.
My home State of Texas is tragically no stranger to such
despicable acts of violence, as we most recently saw in Uvalde.
The tragedy in Uvalde is an unthinkable one, but we must not
let it fade to an unspeakable one. We will continue to fight
for justice for the entire community impacted. And I am glad
that today we can take time to consider the long-term impacts
to the surrounding area.
In Texas alone, Mr. Chairman, and it is your home State as
well as mine, the annual cost of gun violence is $23.7 billion,
or about $839 per person. I am confident that we can all think
of better ways that this money could be spent, like educating
our children, because schools should be about books and not
bullets. It is our duty to prevent such widespread gun
violence, both for the safety of our constituents and for their
economic success.
I know that the chairwoman mentioned the shooter in Uvalde,
and, Mr. Chairman, I read the Texas House Committee report over
the weekend, and it found that there was no legal impediment to
the attacker buying two AR-15-style rifles, 60 magazines, and
over 2,000 rounds of ammunition when he turned 18, most of
which he did online in preparation when he was still 17.
Online. And as she said, some of these platforms are allowing
installment sales. And the real question that I have on my mind
is, where did he get all that money, because I totaled up what
he bought, and it was around $5,000. So, is it, Mr. Brodeur?
Mr. Brodeur. Yes.
Ms. Garcia of Texas. Can you shed some light on how
financial technology companies could actually help us prevent
illegal firearm activity? That is why we have you as an expert,
and the rest of the panel, if anybody wants to help.
Mr. Brodeur. Yes. It is not an easy question. If you look
at the characteristics of perpetrators of mass shootings, many
of them are in poverty, unemployed, and some are really
surprised to hear about the socioeconomic characteristics of
this specific shooter. If we are trying to use technology to
make it harder to buy guns, I am not entirely sure it is going
to be feasible, or that there are easy ways to make it harder
to buy guns without legislation, to be honest.
Ms. Garcia of Texas. Should it be so easy to just go
online? He was 17-years-old, and the AR-15 rifle and some of
the bullets and things--one was $2,054. Another purchase that
he made was $1,081.42. Why is it so easy to just go online?
Mr. Brodeur. All of the information about previous
shootings is online. Strategies used in previous shootings are
online. It is quite easy to get a credit card in this country,
much easier than other countries, to be honest. Someone can get
credit easily and buy things online. We are talking about
usually, perpetrators who are very young, maybe 21-years-old on
average, depending on how we define a mass shooting.
These people are looking mostly for attention. They are on
different networks. For instance, in my research, I look at
networks of neo-Nazis, and I will join different networks
online. All of the information is shared. It is so easy to get
that information. What you can try to do is try to limit these
networks. You mean how people will access information online,
but in terms of limiting what can be bought online without
limiting credit, it's easier to take your parents' credit card.
I just don't see it, to be honest.
Ms. Garcia of Texas. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I am
out of time, but I do have some questions if there is a second
round.
Chairman Green. The gentlewoman's time has expired. The
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
apologize for the glitch I had earlier, but I want to thank you
for holding this hearing and, of course, for discussing this
critical topic of mass shootings in America.
There have been over 340 mass shootings so far in 2022, and
that number continues to climb. In the last 2 months, again, we
have had three especially deadly mass shootings: at a grocery
store; at a school; and most recently, at the 4th of July
parade in my home State. We often see the devastating impacts
of gun violence as it occurs on the news, but once the coverage
dies down, communities are left to pick up the pieces and face
the long-term outcomes.
And as we address the horrifying consequences of mass
shootings, we must also confront the challenges of other forms
of gun violence that don't make the news for decades. Working-
class and minority neighborhoods have been subject to targeted
economic discrimination including redlining, and predatory
lending practices. Many shootings take place in the same
systemically-disadvantaged areas, like the South and West sides
of Chicago, where there has been a lack of jobs and investment.
A question to our panelist, Mr. Brodeur. While limiting gun
access, especially access to weapons of war, is a vital,
necessary, and lifesaving first step, we must also consider
other factors that contribute to mass shootings and gun
violence, like disinvestment from communities, and access to
mental health services. My question is, can you talk about the
cycles of this investment in gun violence and how it keeps
communities at risk?
Mr. Brodeur. Sure. Thank you for the question. As I said,
the first thing that should be noted is, if we are talking
about violence in general, it is one thing. We are talking
about mass shootings, and these are really random. It is
incredibly hard to predict where the next mass shooting is
going to be. I have tried. The FBI has tried. So many people
have tried. It is really very hard to predict where it is going
to happen. It can happen mostly in urban areas. But other than
that, it is going to be incredibly hard to figure out where it
is going to happen.
In terms of business cycles in general, could this economy
potentially lead to more mass shootings if there is a
recession? It could, but it is going to be very hard to try to
prevent it because we don't know where it is going to happen.
In terms of these perpetrators needing mental health support,
100 percent. The vast majority of them have a history of mental
health illness that is documented, so it is not something that
we learned is exposed, but that we knew. A doctor knew the kid,
or the children, or the adolescent, young adult actually was
seeing a psychiatrist, for instance. This happens quite a lot.
So, this is one of the predictors for sure. Providing more
healthcare to help the average young Americans who suffer with
schizophrenia or mental health disease would be amazing just
for the sake of their mental health, but also potentially
preventing mass shootings.
When we think about what we can do to financially help
communities that are struggling with crime--if I think about
Buffalo and Mayor Brown, this community just suffered a lot,
and they are going to need financial support. And the thing
that I find extremely frustrating is if you look at mass
shootings, which are random and just happen somewhere, the
consequences are permanent. And I like to think horizontally
when I think about a problem, and the first thing that comes to
mind is natural disasters. Natural disasters just occur once.
It is random. It is going to hit somewhere. Think of a
hurricane, and when we look at the economic consequences of
these disasters, they are usually not permanent. They are short
term.
And one of the big differences between natural disasters
and mass shootings is that with a mass shooting, there is no
financial support for these communities. They need financial
support after a mass shooting. This is obvious, and this might
help to alleviate some of the economic consequences. Of course,
some of these communities need help even before mass a
shooting, but I am not going to lie, there is no way you can
predict where the next mass shooting is going to be. And there
are tons of communities that need help, those who suffer most
from violent crime. I would target these communities if we
would have defunding. But in general, there is no way you can
predict where it is going to happen next, unfortunately.
Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you so much. It looks like my
time has expired, so I yield back to the Chair.
Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The
gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate
this hearing. And one of the things that is so hard for me,
even the title of looking at the economic cost of gun violence,
but I understand that we need to pay attention. Who is
profiting off of this pain and this trauma that is really
jeopardizing so many lives across our country and really just
hurting so many families? These costs, as we all know, have
been felt particularly among our children, specifically school-
age children. We all know that education is by far the largest
category of municipal bond issuance in our country as well. As
mass shootings have increased, our education dollars have been
increasingly funneled towards school security rather than
investing in our teachers or our students.
And in 2021, Mr. Chairman, the so-called school security
industry made $3.1 billion. As The American Prospect has
written, the financial services industry makes money lending to
school districts to install security upgrades, and those
upgrades manifestly do little or nothing to prevent mass
shootings, as we continue to see. And they make more money
lending to companies that make AR-15s, a weapon of choice for
mass murderers of children, the same companies.
Some banks like Citibank have previously refused to finance
the gun industry, and I applaud them for this. However, in
2021, Texas enacted a law that blocks banks from doing business
with State and local governments that discriminate against the
gun industry. This has the largest municipal bond market in the
country. In response, Citi stated in 2021 that it did not have
a practice policy guidance or directive that discriminates
against firearm entities or firearm trade associations.
Ms. Burd-Sharps, do you think that laws like the one
enacted in Texas are intended to have negative effects,
particularly in the municipal bond market? And what message is
the Texas law sending to banks like Citibank that have taken
steps to limit their exposure to the gun industry?
Ms. Burd-Sharps. Thank you for your question. I would say
that in the work that we have been doing, the message that is
sending is that businesses can't take a position in terms of
contributing to reducing these costs that I just spoke of
today. And it is critical that institutions, that all of us not
facilitate high-risk transactions, including, for instance,
sales of assault weapons and weapons of war to young people, et
cetera. And I say that working on gun violence prevention is a
hard topic, but I think the hopeful news for me is that we do
know research is increasingly pointing us in the direction of
policies that do make a difference, and of practices of the
business community, as well as of local people, that can reduce
the kinds of injuries that are so costly to our society.
Ms. Tlaib. No, I think the responsibility that we are
talking about in this committee, on the financial services
industry--they do have a role here. And according to Everytown,
the cost of gun violence nationally is $280 billion, when first
responders, law enforcement, and criminal justice services
respond to mass shootings. This results in enormous costs to
taxpayers. The research estimates that Las Vegas, Nevada, for a
mass shooting in 2017, resulted in $600 million in taxpayer
dollars.
Mayor Brown, do you think it is fair that your community
and your neighbors pay such a steep price while the gun
companies profit from mass shootings? Do the gun companies have
a role to play in making victims and survivors in communities
like yours whole after mass shootings?
Mr. Brown. Thank you for your question, Congresswoman. I
don't think that it is fair that communities, like my community
of Buffalo and other communities across the country that have
suffered these mass shootings, have to bear the financial
burden of those shootings. I think the gun companies, the gun
manufacturers do have a role to play, and I think it is
important for there to be liability on the part of gun
manufacturers for these terrible crimes that continue to play
themselves out across the country.
As Members of Congress have stated today, there have been
over 340 mass shootings in this country, in this year alone.
The financial consequences are devastating to communities, and
I believe that gun manufacturers do have a role to play. They
should suffer liability for these crimes that are being
committed in our communities.
Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman Green. The gentlewoman yields back. The
gentlewoman from Iowa, Mrs. Axne, who is also the Vice Chair of
our Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and
Insurance, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Axne. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of
our witnesses for being here. And, Mayor Brown, a sincere thank
you to you, and my condolences to those in your community who
have suffered so greatly. Thank you for being here with us.
Of course, I want to start by saying that mass shootings
and gun violence have a lot more direct impacts that are much
more tragic than the economic impacts are, and those will
always be more important. But of course, we are on the
Financial Services Committee, and we need to look at whatever
impact these shootings are having on our communities, because
it is important to stop them, which is why I have said for
years on end that we need an assault weapons ban back in place.
Just this year, Iowans have seen 3 people die outside of a
church in Ames. Very recently, 12 people were shot in April in
Cedar Rapids, and a 15-year-old was killed and 2 others shot
outside a high school in Des Moines, right in my district. That
was just a few blocks from our State capital. And
unfortunately, at a town hall a couple of weeks ago, one of
those students at East High School called asking what Congress
had done, and what Congress could do more so that we could fix
this situation. And although I am quite impressed that a 15-
year-old is paying attention to politics and getting involved
at such a young age, I almost started tearing up because it
broke my heart that a 15-year-old had to call their
Congresswoman and say, what else can you do so I can feel safe
in my family and my kids that I go to school with can feel
safe. This is a tragedy of where we are at, so I am thinking
about these kids.
And, Dr. Singh, I want to ask you, you have studied the
long-term economic impacts of school shootings on the students
at these schools. I know this isn't going to be good news for
us to hear, but what can you tell me about what you have found?
Ms. Singh. Looking specifically at the long-term economic
outcomes, I will focus on some of my research along with some
of the other academic papers on this issue where these papers
show that after shootings, and this could be shootings where
there are no fatalities, there is increased absenteeism. The
students who are exposed are more likely to repeat a grade.
When we look at the medium-term educational effects of the
shootings, these students are less likely to go to college or
less likely to complete college, and, of course, this would
have longer-term impacts. And this paper finds longer-term
impacts on earnings and the likelihood of being employed. So,
exposed students are less likely to be employed, and their
earnings are also lower at the ages of 24 to 26 years. There
are long-term economic effects for these students who are
exposed to gun violence in schools. Thank you.
Mrs. Axne. And are there steps that we can take to help
there?
Ms. Singh. In one of my studies, we analyze the effect of
the Safe Passage Program in Chicago, and the reason we were
studying Chicago is, as most of us in this room know, the crime
around schools is really high. What the City of Chicago did was
they placed guards around schools, and these guards are
civilians. They are not police officers. And they are placed
for 2 to 3 hours in the morning, and 2 to 3 hours in the
afternoon, so basically, during the arrival and dismissal
times, and that helps reduce violent crime.
And the program was effective. The effects persisted for
even 3 years after the program was implemented. It was cost-
effective to do it because these are basically parents and
others from the community who are doing this community
monitoring. And the idea was that having more eyes on the
street might help reduce crime basically, deter students from
loitering around. They go to school more, and it also helped
improve attendance. So, we not only see improvement in violent
crime, but also that these students start going to school more
often.
The obvious question is, what is really going on here, and
why is this program effective? One of the conjectures that we
come up with is because these are people from the community,
they really know the students, and we find higher effects for
the high school students. They go to school, and instead of
committing a crime or getting involved in criminal activities,
they are attending the classes. Thank you.
Mrs. Axne. Thank you so much for that, and we just have a
little bit of time here, but the impact of school shootings on
property values, absolutely has an impact.
Mr. Brodeur, can you share what you found there? What is
that impact on housing prices in areas where school shootings
have happened?
Mr. Brodeur. Housing prices decreased by about 2.5 percent
usually, on average. Again, the effect is pretty much
permanent. The effect seems to be larger in the streets or the
localities close to the shooting, but the effect is also
present for the rest of the county. Thank you.
Mrs. Axne. Thank you.
Chairman Green. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now
recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
Mr. Ingram, you referenced George Floyd. What that officer
did to George Floyd was unconscionable, but you wouldn't paint
all police officers with the same brush, would you?
Mr. Ingram. Thank you for that question. Absolutely not.
Chairman Green. A simple yes or no will suffice for now.
Would you?
Mr. Ingram. No.
Chairman Green. Do you think that when one police officer
commits an egregious offense, all officers ought to be
considered to be bad officers?
Mr. Ingram. No.
Chairman Green. How do you feel when you hear people doing
that, just claiming that all officers are bad because one
officer does something or maybe multiple officers? There have
been many egregious circumstances, but how do you feel when
people do that?
Mr. Ingram. It is heartbreaking.
Chairman Green. Okay. Do you think that because one
prosecutor releases someone or doesn't prosecute a case
properly that you should paint all prosecutors with the same
brush?
Mr. Ingram. No.
Chairman Green. One judge makes a mistake or lets someone
out and that person commits an offense, do you think you should
paint all judges with the same brush, Mr. Ingram?
Mr. Ingram. No.
Chairman Green. How do you feel when you hear people
painting all judges with the same brush, all prosecutors with
the same brush? The prosecutors are doing it. The liberal
prosecutors are doing it. How do you feel when you hear that,
Mr. Ingram?
Mr. Ingram. I can only speak to what is happening, and--
Chairman Green. I am not asking you about what is
happening. You don't think that all police officers are to be
abused verbally, and I would assume that as the good-natured
person you are, you would not want to see all judges painted
with the same brush, would you?
Mr. Ingram. Correct.
Chairman Green. Thank you. I appreciate you helping me to
help my colleagues better understand that they shouldn't do
that. Now, Mayor, I thank you again for being here. The
business community has a role to play in this as well. What do
you see as the role of the business community?
Mr. Brown. The business community should invest equitably
throughout the community. They should not exclude customers in
certain parts of the community because that exacerbates
poverty. It contributes to crime. It devalues certain areas of
the community. In Buffalo, in the mass shooting that we
experienced, the Tops Supermarket Company was the first company
almost 20 years ago, supermarket chain that made a commitment
to invest in an urban area of the City of Buffalo, in East
Buffalo, that previously had been a food desert. And the
investment in that store that I and others fought and
negotiated to bring to that community became a center of
community. People came there not only to shop, but to meet and
spend time with friends. And so, the crime that was committed
there was a heinous act of racist violence.
Chairman Green. Let me intercede for just a moment. I only
have 49 seconds or thereabouts. Do you think that the business
community should take a public position as it relates to this
violence, these mass shootings?
Mr. Brown. Yes, I do.
Chairman Green. And, Mayor, you have a Buffalo Niagara
Partnership (BNP) similar to a chamber of commerce, and I have
a letter from them. They indicate that earlier this year, the
BNP stepped out of the confines of our traditional advocacy
priorities and brought together a coalition of several regional
chambers of commerce across New York State to call on Congress
to pass an assault weapons ban. This action followed the racist
mass shooting at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo on May 14,
2022. I am proud of what you have been able to accomplish with
your chamber of commerce. Do you think that chambers of
commerce across the country should take similar positions?
Mr. Brown. I absolutely do.
Chairman Green. And I am concerned about the U.S. Chamber
of Commerce. It seems to me that they ought to take a position
as well.
Mr. Brown. I agree with that.
Chairman Green. Now, in closing, let me just share this
quickly. In Texas, at Robb Elementary, hundreds of police
officers were there, and we know what happened. The video
speaks for itself. I don't condemn all police officers, but I
do condemn those who did not move in to save lives. My uncle
was a deputy sheriff. I am where I am today because of a deputy
sheriff. I don't condemn all police officers, but those who are
wrong, I do.
I want to thank all of you for being here today, and I want
to say that Ms. Garcia is going to be recognized, but if
hundreds of police officers didn't take out that gunman, I
don't think we should expect a teacher with a pistol to take on
a gunman. Teachers ought to be allowed to teach, and we ought
to have safety officers who do their jobs.
With that, Ms. Garcia, you are now recognized.
Ms. Garcia of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous
consent to enter in the record the report that I referenced,
the Investigative Committee on the Robb Elementary School
shooting made by the Texas House of Representatives.
Chairman Green. Without objection, it is so ordered.
And I will be introducing a letter from the Buffalo Niagara
Partnership, without objection. Also, I introduce, without
objection, the ``Economic Cost of Gun Violence.''
And the Chair would like to thank our witnesses for their
testimony today.
The Chair notes that some Members may have additional
questions for these witnesses, which they may wish to submit in
writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open
for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions
to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record.
Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days
to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in
the record.
This hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:33 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
July 19, 2022
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