[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE NOT ENOUGH:
                  HOW MASS SHOOTINGS HARM COMMUNITIES,
                  LOCAL ECONOMIES, AND ECONOMIC GROWTH

=======================================================================

                             HYBRID HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND INVESTIGATIONS

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 19, 2022

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services      
     
                           Serial No. 117-95
                           
 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
  
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-471 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                 MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York         PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina, 
NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York             Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California             FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York           BILL POSEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia                 BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
AL GREEN, Texas                      BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri            ANN WAGNER, Missouri
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              ANDY BARR, Kentucky
JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut            ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
BILL FOSTER, Illinois                FRENCH HILL, Arkansas
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio                   TOM EMMER, Minnesota
JUAN VARGAS, California              LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey          BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas              ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
AL LAWSON, Florida                   WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam            TED BUDD, North Carolina
CINDY AXNE, Iowa                     TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois                ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts       JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
RITCHIE TORRES, New York             BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts      LANCE GOODEN, Texas
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina           WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan              VAN TAYLOR, Texas
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania         PETE SESSIONS, Texas
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York   RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina
JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas
NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts

                   Charla Ouertatani, Staff Director
              Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations

                        AL GREEN, Texas Chairman

EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri            TOM EMMER, Minnesota, Ranking 
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina               Member
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan              BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois      ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas                 WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina, 
NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia, Vice           Vice Ranking Member
    Chair                            RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on:
    July 19, 2022................................................     1
Appendix:
    July 19, 2022................................................    27

                               WITNESSES
                         Tuesday, July 19, 2022

Brodeur, Abel, Associate Professor, University of Ottawa.........     4
Brown, Byron W., Mayor, City of Buffalo, New York................     5
Burd-Sharps, Sarah, Senior Director of Research, Everytown for 
  Gun Safety Support Fund........................................     6
Ingram, Brian, Founder and CEO, Purpose Restaurants..............     9
Singh, Ruchi, Assistant Professor, Terry College of Business, 
  University of Georgia..........................................     8

                                APPENDIX

Prepared statements:
    Brodeur, Abel................................................    28
    Brown, Byron W...............................................    79
    Burd-Sharps, Sarah...........................................    82
    Ingram, Brian................................................    87
    Singh, Ruchi.................................................    90

              Additional Material Submitted for the Record

Green, Hon. Al:
    Buffalo Niagara Partnership--Personal Statement from La'Shea 
      Cretain of El Cajon, California............................    98
    Creative Investment Research report, ``Projected Impact of 
      Gun Laws on Corporate Profits in Texas''...................    99
    Everytown Research & Policy report, ``The Economic Cost of 
      Gun Violence''.............................................   102
Garcia, Hon. Sylvia:
    Report of the Texas House of Representatives, Investigative 
      Committee on the Robb Elementary Shooting..................   110

 
                  THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE NOT ENOUGH:
                  HOW MASS SHOOTINGS HARM COMMUNITIES,
                  LOCAL ECONOMIES, AND ECONOMIC GROWTH

                              ----------                              


                         Tuesday, July 19, 2022

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                          Subcommittee on Oversight
                                and Investigations,
                           Committee on Financial Services,
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:03 p.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Al Green 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Green, Cleaver, Tlaib, 
Garcia of Illinois, Garcia of Texas; Emmer, Mooney, and 
Timmons.
    Ex officio present: Representative Waters.
    Also present: Representative Axne.
    Chairman Green. The Subcommittee on Oversight and 
Investigations will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the subcommittee at any time. Also, without 
objection, members of the full Financial Services Committee who 
are not members of the subcommittee are authorized to 
participate in today's hearing.
    Today's hearing is entitled, ``Thoughts and Prayers Are Not 
Enough: How Mass Shootings Harm Communities, Local Economies, 
and Economic Growth.''
    I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening 
statement.
    Friends, when innocent children are being mass murdered in 
schools, thoughts and prayers are not enough to assure parents 
that children will come home safely from school. When 
worshippers are mass murdered in places of worship, thoughts 
and prayers are not enough to protect worshipers while 
worshipping. When shoppers are mass murdered in marketplaces, 
thoughts and prayers are not enough to prevent future 
marketplace mass murders and the consequences that follow. This 
year alone, we have had 354 mass shootings in 200 days, 
including 16 mass murders, according to the Gun Violence 
Archive.
    Friends, it has become painfully clear that a good guy with 
a gun to take out a bad guy with a gun, the kill or be killed 
philosophy, is not the solution. And just as we must concern 
ourselves with saving lives, we must also concern ourselves 
with the impact on the quality of life after a mass shooting.
    I thank Mayor Brown for being with us today. The tragic 
mass shooting at the Tops Food Store in his hometown of 
Buffalo, New York, had an immediate impact on the community it 
serves. The Tops Friendly Markets store, once the hub of 
commerce within his community, was forced to shut down for 2 
months. According to the Buffalo Niagara Partnership, a chamber 
of commerce in the Buffalo area, during those 2 months people 
were displaced from jobs, and their community faced a food 
accessibility challenge.
    It is important to understand the impact that mass 
shootings have on unemployment. Research has shown increases in 
unemployment by almost 2 percent in areas that have experienced 
mass shootings. Mass shootings also have been shown to impact 
home values. Research has shown that mass shootings can lead to 
a decrease in area housing prices of up to 3 percent. Mass 
shootings at schools have been shown to cause a decline in home 
values of up to nearly 8 percent within that school district. 
This impact occurs because the school where a mass shooting 
occurs might then be considered unsafe or stigmatized. Families 
might be less inclined to move to that school district, and 
other families might choose to leave. Teachers become more 
inclined to leave the district.
    In summary, mass shootings can have a devastating impact on 
communities. They hurt businesses, causing resignations, 
layoffs, litigation costs, and increased costs of insurance. 
Property values decrease and the tax base erodes, leading to 
cuts in fire, police, and sanitation departments. My hope is 
that by examining these issues today, we might come to 
understand how mass shootings have a greater harmful impact 
than we previously knew, and I trust that this understanding 
will cause us to strive to do even more to prevent mass 
shootings. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on this 
urgent matter.
    At this time, I now recognize the ranking member of the 
subcommittee, Mr. Emmer, for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.
    Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to the 
witnesses for coming to speak with us today. I look forward to 
hearing your testimony.
    Cities and communities across the country are dealing with 
a surge in violence. In fact, over the past 2 years, the United 
States has seen an increased rate of all types of violence and 
crime. In 2021, 68 out of 70 of the largest United States 
police jurisdictions saw increases in violent crime, which 
includes homicide, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. More 
specifically, we are seeing this rise in crime in cities where 
large-scale theft, looting, and robbery are plaguing 
communities.
    We frequently hear stories of businesses in cities like 
Chicago or San Francisco which are forced to relocate, shut 
down, or limit their hours to protect their employees and 
manage the extra costs of security just to operate every day. 
Many businesses, particularly the smallest businesses, are 
faced with the wrenching decision of whether to close and 
abandon the community or stay and deal with the risks of 
remaining open. Those decisions aren't just based on dollars 
and cents.
    Business owners must consider the safety of their employees 
and their customers. When a business closes its doors, the 
entire community feels the effect. Jobs are lost. Customers 
must find somewhere else to get the things they need. A vacant 
storefront invites more criminal activity. The value of homes 
in the area goes down, and a community begins to deteriorate. 
In the face of such rampant crime, law enforcement, 
unfortunately, does not often have the resources necessary to 
protect communities, from staffing issues to an ability to 
enforce the laws. Democrats were the party of Defund the 
Police, and these political attacks against law and order have 
depleted law enforcement morale and resources.
    Even though our committee does not have jurisdiction over 
crime, I welcome the opportunity to discuss how violent crime 
affects a community's economy. Our witnesses can help us 
understand how violent crime affects local economies and limits 
the services that are available to communities across the 
country. For many communities, addressing crime and violence 
starts with State and local leadership. Soft-on-crime policies 
have made matters worse in jurisdictions where crime rates are 
highest. The absence of the threat of meaningful prosecution 
affects the safety of residents and businesses.
    Today, we invited a business owner who has dealt with these 
challenges in Minnesota for several years now. Brian Ingram has 
managed to keep his restaurant doors open to the community of 
St. Paul despite an unbelievable series of crimes against his 
business, his employees, and his customers. I think we will all 
benefit from hearing his story.
    And so again, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding 
this hearing today because Americans should never, never feel 
this level of unsafety in their own communities. We must return 
to a society of law and order. I yield back.
    Chairman Green. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the Chair of the full Financial Services Committee, the 
gentlewoman from California, Chairwoman Waters, for 1 minute.
    Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Chairman Green. To 
Mayor Brown and all of the witnesses here today, I thank you 
for coming to help us deal with this very difficult and 
complicated issue. The first thing I must say is that not all 
Democrats have said to defund the police, so let's be clear 
about that. From the mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, to 
the recent tragedy in Highland Park, Illinois, these horrific 
incidents have been far too frequent. In this year alone, there 
have been more than 300 mass shootings, devastating families 
and communities. The reverberations of loss and grief are felt 
long after the last bullet.
    Neighborhoods, local businesses, and affected areas 
struggle to cope with changing dynamics within the community, 
including negative impacts to the housing market, store 
closures, additional costs for security, and an unexpected loss 
of revenue and employment. I urge my fellow Members of Congress 
to stop the bleeding and take action to support healing in 
these communities across our great nation. With that, Mr. 
Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairman Green. The gentlelady yields back.
    Today, we welcome the testimony of our distinguished 
witnesses: Abel Brodeur, an associate professor at the 
University of Ottawa; Byron Brown, the Mayor of the City of 
Buffalo, New York; Sarah Burd-Sharps, the senior director of 
research at Everytown for Gun Safety; Ruchi Singh, an assistant 
professor at Terry College of Business at the University of 
Georgia; and Brian Ingram, the founder and CEO of Purpose 
Driven Restaurants.
    Witnesses are reminded that their oral testimony will be 
limited to 5 minutes. You should be able to see a timer that 
will indicate how much time you have left. I would ask that you 
be mindful of the timer so that we can be respectful of both 
the witnesses' and the committee members' time.
    And without objection, your written statements will be made 
a part of the record.
    Mr. Brodeur, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give 
an oral presentation of your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF ABEL BRODEUR, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF 
                             OTTAWA

    Mr. Brodeur. I would like to thank the subcommittee for 
holding this hearing and having me talk to you about this 
topic.
    I am an economist, and I am a professor at the University 
of Ottawa, and in my research, I study the economic 
consequences of violent crime, gang-related crimes, domestic 
terror attacks, and mass shootings. And today, I want to talk 
to you about the economic consequences of mass shootings in the 
United States.
    In a study, our senior staff looked at mass shootings from 
2000 to 2013, talking about hundreds of mass shootings, and we 
are interested in documenting what happens to the local 
economies. And what we find is that after a mass shooting, the 
consequences are tremendous and permanent. We find a decrease 
in employment of about 2 percent, a decrease in earnings of 2.5 
percent, a decrease in housing prices, and also a decrease in 
wages, potentially due to a decrease in productivity, which I 
will come back to.
    Overall, we find that these communities, these counties 
that were hit by mass shootings lost about 100,000 jobs in the 
period of 2000 to 2013, so a lot of jobs, and this raises the 
question of why? What are the mechanisms through which mass 
shootings can affect these local economies, and we look at 
different channels. One of the first channels that we look at 
is consumer sentiments or the way people in these communities 
feel about their economy, about local businesses. And we find 
in the months and years after mass shooting, these become more 
pessimistic, negative.
    We also look at the role of the media. I have looked at the 
national media coverage of all of these mass shootings myself 
for ABC, CBS, and NBC. And what we find is every single minute 
of coverage of these mass shooting exacerbates dramatically the 
consequences on local economies. And also, many studies now are 
showing that additional media coverage leads to more copycats 
and other shootings. We also look at which type of industry is 
affected, and we find it is mostly the private sector, the 
service industry, and manufacturing. Many different sectors, 
and many different businesses are affected.
    Our findings potentially lead to different policy 
prescriptions. The first one I want to talk about is media 
coverage. I think we need to have some sort of policy that 
limits the type of media coverage of these mass shootings, a 
John Doe type of policy, meaning that we should refrain from 
talking about the perpetrators, their identity, their motives, 
and the strategies used. Everything is available online easily 
on Wikipedia. In terms of other types of policies that will be 
important, I think we need to think about why productivity goes 
down. And one of the things we did was look at a survey from 
the CDC that asked hundreds of thousands of Americans every 
year about their health, their mental health, their physical 
health, and many other questions, and we matched this to the 
mass shooting data. And what we found is, of course, mass 
shootings decreased mental health in the short run, but also in 
the long run.
    And we find that respondents in these communities 
increasingly report for months and years that they are not able 
to do their normal activities, like working and taking care of 
their children, and these effects are permanent for years. And 
this explains why productivity potentially goes down or 
earnings go down. They go down because jobs are lost, but also 
because productivity is going down. People are missing work, 
missing days of work and are less productive at work. So, we 
need public policy to provide financial support, but also 
medical support, not only in the short run, but also 
potentially in the medium- and long-run, helping these 
communities financially and providing them medical care.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Brodeur can be found on page 
28 of the appendix.]
    Chairman Green. Thank you very much, Mr. Brodeur.
    Mr. Brown, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an 
oral presentation of your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF BYRON W. BROWN, MAYOR, CITY OF BUFFALO, NEW YORK

    Mr. Brown. Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, Chairwoman 
Waters, Congressman Cleaver, and members of the House Financial 
Services Committee, I am honored to be here today to discuss 
the harmful impact of mass shootings on communities, local 
economies, and economic growth.
    On Saturday, May 14, 2022, the unthinkable happened in 
Buffalo, New York. Our family members, friends, and neighbors 
were simply going about their business, grocery shopping, when, 
without warning, they were interrupted by deadly gunfire. An 
outsider opened fire and killed 10 innocent people and injured 
3 others. It was a moment that changed our community forever. 
Fifty-two days after the devastating shooting, we reopened the 
Tops Supermarket. However, nothing we do will ever repair the 
heartache for the families who lost loved ones, but we will 
always stand united with them. In the City Of Good Neighbors, 
we are a loving and resilient community, a community that will 
always remember. We will never forget.
    This horrific tragedy highlighted many issues that have 
impacted our community, and Black and Brown communities 
nationwide. Across our country, we have seen over a century of 
underfunding by the Federal Government in Black and Brown 
neighborhoods. This has led to unacceptable increases in gun 
violence, segregation, crime, poor health outcomes, and 
generational poverty. These factors made Buffalo a target for 
the May 14th shooter, whose stated goal was to kill as many 
Black people as possible.
    Every mass shooting has a significant economic impact. 
However, the mass shooting in Buffalo was different. It was an 
act of domestic terrorism fueled by racism and White supremacy. 
This was perceived to be not only an attack on Black Buffalo, 
but an attack on Black America. In just the 2 weeks after the 
shooting, City departments--police, fire, and sanitation--spent 
over $500,000 of unbudgeted dollars on overtime and other 
related services. That amount has continued to significantly 
increase as City Government continues to play a vital role in 
our community's healing process and public safety needs.
    Gun violence has a lasting and negative impact on 
survivors, and experiencing these events in childhood has a 
lifelong impact on the psychological well-being and labor 
market participation of those involved. The May 14th shooting 
in Buffalo will impact an entire generation of children. This 
event has the potential to harm Buffalo's already economically-
disadvantaged Black community and further grow inequality. We 
must do whatever we can to combat this and provide the East 
Buffalo community with the funding for services such as 
counseling, educational enrichment, and lost wages. There 
should be Federal funding to address the economic damage to 
communities that suffer mass shootings.
    I applaud President Biden and the bipartisan group of 
Members of Congress for supporting the Safer Communities Act. 
While this law will save lives, it doesn't go far enough. I 
urge you to work with the Biden Administration on reinstating 
an assault weapons ban. Assault weapons are exceptionally 
deadly firearms that are commonplace in mass shootings. An 
assault weapons ban may have prevented the May 14th massacre. I 
also urge you to ensure that the long-ignored and underfunded 
Black and Brown communities, like East Buffalo, have the 
funding and support that they need to ensure recovery from this 
tragedy and to prevent and treat the trauma of that violence 
that has held back communities of color for generations. In 
addition, anti-Black hate crime legislation must be passed to 
address White supremacy and remove these hateful ideologies 
from our society.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mayor Brown can be found on page 
79 of the appendix.]
    Chairman Green. Thank you, Mayor Brown.
    Ms. Burd-Sharps, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
give an oral presentation of your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF SARAH BURD-SHARPS, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, 
             EVERYTOWN FOR GUN SAFETY SUPPORT FUND

    Ms. Burd-Sharps. Good afternoon, Chairman Green, Ranking 
Member Emmer, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for 
the opportunity to share our recent work on the economic cost 
of gun violence. It is an honor to appear before you to 
testify. My name is Sarah Burd-Sharps, and I am the senior 
director of research at the Everytown for Gun Safety Support 
Fund, the largest gun violence prevention organization in the 
United States.
    With tragic and numbing regularity, we hear about shootings 
on our streets, in grocery stores, schools, hospitals, and too 
many other places. Every day in America, roughly 300 people 
join the toll of those killed and injured with guns. Today's 
focus is on mass shootings, of which there were 27 in which 4 
or more people were killed, excluding the shooter, over the 
course of 2021, resulting in 136 fatalities. But I want to be 
clear. While devastating, costly, and fear-inducing far beyond 
the location where they occur, they make up less than 1 percent 
of all gun deaths and injuries.
    Without a doubt, the human cost of gun violence is the most 
devastating. No dollar amount could ever fully convey the cost 
for families and survivors of gun violence, but examining the 
series of economic consequences is essential as well for 
understanding just how extensive and expensive this crisis is. 
Our hope is that this research will help guide you and your 
colleagues as you weigh policies and actions to build safer 
communities. We worked with a leading health economist 
estimating the cost of injuries in the U.S. today, as well as 
with Federal datasets on gun deaths and hospitalizations, and 
extensive peer-reviewed research to understand these costs.
    The economic consequence to our nation of America's 
unrelenting gun violence epidemic is $557 billion a year, year 
after year. The government share of these costs paid for by 
taxpayers is $12.6 billion a year. That is nearly $35 million 
each day that could instead be invested in essential public 
goods like education, workforce development, and building 
healthier, safer, and more sustainable communities. These 
figures are conservative estimates. They represent the lifetime 
costs associated with gun violence. Starting at the scene of a 
shooting are things like emergency medical care, and police 
investigations, continuing on to the long-term health care and 
criminal justice costs necessary. And they also include 
estimates for pain, suffering, and the loss of well-being of 
victims and their families.
    Our report released today provides full details, but our 
estimates don't even begin to include the wider ripple effects, 
and those wider costs aren't marginal. As you just heard from 
Mayor Brown, and if you talk to any school superintendent or 
pediatrician in a town that has experienced a shooting, they 
can produce a long list of costs that extend far beyond the 
immediate items we are counting: costs to address the trauma of 
children afraid to go back to school; neighborhood businesses 
and home values; and the larger reverberations on all of those 
who live in a neighborhood where gun violence happens or who 
share an identity with someone who is the target of a shooting.
    While not everyone directly experiences gun violence, we 
all pay an economic price for it. The annual cost of gun 
violence in the U.S. is $1,698 for every resident. However, in 
States with stronger gun laws and fewer deaths and injuries, we 
found the economic toll to be less than half this amount. 
Policies that save lives also save on costs. While we are so 
grateful for the actions Congress took recently to address gun 
violence, there is still much more we can do. Half of the 
deadliest mass shootings over the past 5 years are committed by 
a shooter under age 21. The Senate urgently followed the 
House's lead and passed legislation to raise the age to 
purchase all firearms to 21. Further, the recent tragic mass 
shootings revealed a litany of advanced warning signs. The 
Senate should pass the Federal Extreme Risk Protection Order 
Act, which would create a civil process that would allow loved 
ones and law enforcement to intervene when they see the signs 
across the country.
    Our research clearly shows we are spending precious funds 
on an epidemic that brings nothing of benefit and plenty of 
heartbreak and shattered lives. We have placed ourselves at a 
severe economic disadvantage in the globally-competitive 
economy with these enormous outlays.
    Thank you again, Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, and 
members of the subcommittee for allowing me to testify today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Burd-Sharps can be found on 
page 82 of the appendix.]
    Chairman Green. Thank you, Ms. Burd-Sharps.
    Ms. Singh, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an 
oral presentation of your testimony.

STATEMENT OF RUCHI SINGH, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, TERRY COLLEGE OF 
                BUSINESS, UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA

    Ms. Singh. Chairman Green, Ranking Member Emmer, and 
members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to 
testify before you today. I am honored to contribute to the 
discussion on this important topic. I am Ruchi Singh, assistant 
professor of real estate at the Terry College of Business at 
the University of Georgia. I have conducted academic research 
on real estate economics and the economics of crime since 2016. 
I will be drawing today on the findings of my own research and 
on evidence from the relevant academic literature on mass 
shootings and gun violence. My comments today are about the 
economic effects of shooting, specifically in the context of 
schools and about considerations that should be part of 
devising appropriate policies. I am currently working on a 
paper studying the effects of mass shootings in schools on 
residential real estate prices.
    A number of academic studies have shown that crime, in 
general, impacts house prices negatively. This is probably 
unsurprising to most people. However, a mass shooting is not a 
typical type of crime. It is unlikely to be repeated at the 
same place. Nevertheless, my co-authors and I found that house 
prices in the affected school attendance area declined 
following such an incident. Our preliminary estimates show that 
mass shootings at schools lead to an average decline of 2.4 
percent in house prices over the next 4 years. We also find 
evidence suggesting that the negative impact on house prices 
starts to fade away around 7 years after the incident.
    In the study, we define a mass shooting as an incident with 
three or more victims who were either injured or killed, 
excluding the shooter. Moreover, if one considers all episodes 
involving the discharge of a firearm in schools, the number is 
substantial. Starting from the Columbine incident in 1999, and 
continuing through May 2022, an estimated 311,000 students at 
schools have been exposed to gun violence during school hours. 
A number of academic studies have shown that students who are 
exposed to such shooting episodes suffer significant negative 
consequences. For example, a recent study co-authored by 
researchers from the University of Texas at Austin, 
Northwestern University, and Stanford University found that 
exposure to a school shooting leads to higher rates of chronic 
absenteeism and to an increased probability that students 
repeat grades over the next 2 years.
    These students also experienced negative long-term impacts: 
they were less likely to graduate from high school; less likely 
to enroll in college; and less likely to graduate from college. 
Moreover, they also had lower earnings, and they were less 
likely to be employed at the age of 24 to 26. Other researchers 
have also found similar evidence of lower test scores and 
increased absenteeism as a result of exposure to a school 
shooting incident. Furthermore, there is evidence that the 
students experience a deterioration in mental health and 
increased antidepressant usage. More generally, being exposed 
to violent crimes, including those that may not involve guns, 
has also been shown to negatively affect students' educational 
achievement and their long-term outcomes.
    I now turn to things to think about in terms of policies to 
reduce school shootings. The finding of another research paper 
of mine suggests that one way to reduce violent crime around 
schools is by placing civilian guards. Specifically, my co-
authors and I analyzed the effectiveness of the Chicago Public 
Schools Safe Passage Program. This program draws upon parents 
and other adults from the local community to act as civilian 
guards around schools during arrival and dismissal times. We 
find that these extra eyes on the street reduce crime, 
especially violent crime around schools. Moreover, the program 
resulted in improved school attendance.
    In thinking about ways to reduce the number of school 
shootings, policymakers need to be aware that there are 
different kinds of such incidents. For example, community 
policing is likely to reduce targeted and crime-related 
shootings, but it will probably not be effective in reducing 
indiscriminate shootings. Therefore, policies aiming to reduce 
school shootings will have to use multipronged approaches.
    Thank you. I look forward to your comments and questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Singh can be found on page 
90 of the appendix.]
    Chairman Green. Thank you, Ms. Singh.
    I now recognize Mr. Ingram for 5 minutes to give an oral 
presentation of your testimony.

STATEMENT OF BRIAN INGRAM, FOUNDER AND CEO, PURPOSE RESTAURANTS

    Mr. Ingram. Thank you, Chairman Green, Chairwoman Waters, 
and members of the subcommittee. My name is Brian Ingram, and I 
own a collection of restaurants in Minnesota. I thank you for 
this opportunity to share some of my experiences over the last 
couple of years.
    My entire life has been dedicated to food and coming 
together over a meal. A few years ago, I had a vision of 
opening restaurants that not only would serve our guests, but 
also serve our community. We made a commitment to donate 3 
percent of our total sales back to those in need within our 
community. In 2019, my wife and I formed Purpose Driven 
Restaurants. We opened a concept called, ``hope.''
    Right before COVID hit, we chose to shut our restaurants 
down and serve our community, and that ended up being about 
300,000 free meals, and 2 million pounds of food, not to 
mention all the outreach we did within shelters. And I don't 
say any of this to say, look at what we have done. I would say, 
look at what we have done as a community. Sarah and I would 
have run out of money instantly when we were doing this. It 
took our community standing with us to move forward. We stood 
with our city when George Floyd was tragically killed. We fed 
protesters. We fed our National Guard. We fed our police 
officers and first responders. As a person of faith, I believe 
that we are called to feed all of God's people.
    As businesses began to reopen in the Twin Cities, crime 
began to escalate. We saw it over and over: our windows being 
shot out in our restaurants; criminals using the parking lot of 
one of my restaurants to be a place where they would kind of 
gather, and then they would head out to loot and destroy our 
cities. I would make calls to 9-1-1, and we would be told that 
they have no officers to respond. Crime has now become a daily 
part of life. All seven of my restaurants and my office have 
been robbed numerous times on many occasions by the same 
criminal. The same criminal would be released within 24 hours 
of robbing my restaurant and then show back up a few weeks 
later to rob me again.
    The lack of law enforcement's ability to respond--we would 
share footage of these folks breaking into our restaurants. 
These folks would walk in very lackadaisical. They had no worry 
that the police were responding or that they were even coming. 
I have watched them walk into our restaurants with no fear, 
search out our employee break rooms, steal purses, steal car 
keys, and then head out and steal that very car as employees 
follow them and the thieves basically dared them to do 
something.
    I have shown up at our restaurant, oftentimes arriving 
before the police, because we don't have enough officers to 
patrol our city. I have had to walk in harm's way with people 
in our building. Far too often, I have sat with our employees 
if they have been attacked as they are trying to go home with 
their hard-earned tips. I have sat with our guests who have 
been carjacked. Our late-night traffic in our restaurants has 
dropped off about 50 percent because we no longer feel safe 
being open after 9:00, 10:00 at night, so a restaurant that 
used to be open until 1:00 a.m. now closes at 10:00 p.m..
    Our customers are choosing suburban dining over fears of 
violence in our city. We are now looking at locations outside 
of the Twin Cities. Minneapolis has become a ghost town. I was 
recently offered a restaurant in Minneapolis for one penny, and 
I said no to it. The violence in our city--we have paid for 
funerals for young kids who have been struck by gun violence 7 
times in the last year. I am heartbroken by the mass shootings 
and unrelenting violence going on around our country. I am even 
more heartbroken about things like fentanyl that are happening 
in our city.
    I lost my kitchen manager a month ago to an accidental 
fentanyl overdose. We had his drug dealer's name, and his phone 
number. He texted him and said, ``Something is wrong with my 
drugs.'' He said, ``You will be fine.'' He died that night. 
Forty-thousand people have died from fentanyl in the last year-
and-a-half. That is 109 people a day. That is a mass murderer.
    I am asking you to address the real problems. Criminals 
fear nothing in our cities. They know responses will be slow. 
They know that if they are caught, they will be back out on the 
street, typically within 24 hours. Our hope is that all of you 
will come together and figure out how we can stop crime in our 
cities, before our cities are gone. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ingram can be found on page 
87 of the appendix.]
    Chairman Green. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Ingram.
    I now recognize the Chair of the full Financial Services 
Committee, Chairwoman Waters, for 5 minutes for questions.
    Chairwoman Waters. Thank you so very much, Mr. Green. As I 
listen to these witnesses, it is so painful to see and 
understand the gun violence, not only the responsibility of 
those with guns to not allow them to be used by children, to 
put them in safe places, to not own guns, necessarily. As a 
matter of fact, I am a person who does not believe that the 
Second Amendment guarantees you the right to have a gun, and I 
think that the Congress of the United States is divided on the 
gun issue.
    There are so many different ways that we have tried to deal 
with the issue of gun violence, and we don't have the votes to 
get rid of automatic weapons. We don't have the votes to get 
rid of weapons that have been used in war, that have found 
their way into a police station. We don't have the votes, 
basically, to make this country safe. And these mass killings 
are absolutely painful. To see children and individuals shot 
down and killed for no reason other than someone does not like 
the color of their skin, or someone is mentally ill, or someone 
wants to rob them. All of those reasons are totally 
unacceptable.
    Mr. Green, you are taking a look at another aspect of this 
violence, dealing with what it does to the community, what it 
does to businesses, and how those people who work so very hard 
to strengthen our communities are basically undermined when 
these mass shootings take place. People move. Businesses close 
down. People are afraid. And so, I took one issue that I wanted 
to deal with today and it is to talk about how some of these 
guns are purchased.
    The gun that was used in the Uvalde, Texas, school shooting 
was sold by a firearms manufacturer that offers loan 
installment payment plans to purchase their products under the 
consumer finance company, Credova. These buy now, pay later 
financing programs make guns more accessible to purchase, only 
requiring a simple credit check with interest-free loans paid 
back in 3 to 4 monthly installments. Fintech loan providers 
like Credova are not involved with nor do they have insight 
into the background checks conducted by retailers who sell 
guns. Credova itself claims on its website that approval takes 
seconds for most customers.
    As I have said, this is only one small aspect of this 
issue. But of course, I think the easier guns are to obtain, 
the ways to get them cheaply, the ways for young people to go 
on the internet and find ways to purchase and pay later, are 
issues with which we are going to have to deal. I wish that all 
of you coming here today could leave saying, ``I was at the 
Congress of the United States, and I heard that they really are 
going to take some serious steps, and they are going to deal 
with gun violence.'' But you are not going to leave with that 
message today.
    The message that you are going to leave with is, ``They 
talked a lot about how they are absolutely devastated by the 
killings that take place.'' As Mr. Green said, prayers are not 
enough. And you are going to leave saying, ``I know that many 
of them pray.'' But Mr. Green is right; prayers are not enough. 
We all have a role in trying to deal with this violence. The 
United States Congress must step up to the plate, and must be 
committed to the idea that we could stop this violence and we 
could take guns off the street. But it has not happened yet.
    For those of you in communities where there are gun 
manufacturers, where there are gun stores, I think it makes 
good sense for the community to get organized and tell them 
that they do not wish to have them in the community. I think it 
makes good sense to tell parents that if you see your child 
acting very strangely over a period of time, if you know they 
have some issues, if you know that you have been ignoring the 
fact that they love guns and they spend hours watching violence 
on television, et cetera--parents, relatives, everybody has to 
step up to the plate and say, this child needs some help. There 
is something wrong here, and stop ignoring it. There are so 
many ways that all of us must play a part in dealing with the 
gun violence.
    Thank you for being here today. And thank you, Mr. Green, 
for holding this aspect of it, that all of us should not be 
able to go to bed at night and rest seeing the violence that is 
going on, the lives that are lost, and the businesses that are 
destroyed, and the neighborhoods and communities that are 
literally torn apart because of it.
    I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. Green.
    Chairman Green. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes the distinguished ranking member of the 
subcommittee, Mr. Emmer, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you again to 
our witnesses for appearing before this subcommittee.
    Look, crime is running rampant across our country. It is 
imperative that Congress focus on the serious, damaging impact 
that lawlessness has had on our communities. We must restore 
order. As we examine the impact crime has had on local 
economies, we are grateful to Mr. Brian Ingram for joining us 
today from St. Paul, Minnesota. He is the only business owner 
on this witness panel who has firsthand experience in trying to 
live and trying to operate a business in a nearly lawless 
environment.
    Catastrophic crime rates are not unique to the Twin Cities 
in Minnesota. Crime is plaguing communities across the United 
States, from New York to San Francisco and cities in between. 
Americans in urban areas face increases in carjackings, theft, 
burglaries, vandalism, and assault. This has led to a 
divestment in local economies because safety trumps all other 
priorities, and many people cannot safely run a business in 
such dangerous conditions. That divestment hits low-income 
communities the hardest.
    How did we get here, and why is crime running rampant 
across the United States? We locked down our citizens for a 
year, and stripped them of the in-person activities that help 
keep people out of a life of crime: school; extracurriculars; 
community engagement; and mental health resources.
    Then, Democrats championed a nationwide campaign against 
law enforcement, which has made the police force so politically 
unpopular that many communities like St. Paul, Minnesota, where 
Mr. Ingram lives and runs his businesses, don't have enough 
sworn law enforcement officers to protect the community. As we 
heard from Mr. Ingram, when residents call 9-1-1, it is not 
uncommon to be told that no one can help them.
    Mr. Ingram, can you please share with the subcommittee what 
changes you had to make to your business to protect your 
employees and customers from crime?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes. One of the things we have had to do, of 
course, is shortening our hours, even bringing in our staff a 
little later. We have a breakfast restaurant that used to open 
at 6:00 a.m., and now we pushed that back to 7:00 a.m., just 
because we wanted it to be light out before our staff would 
come in. Our restaurant is closing at 10:00. We have a pub that 
would primarily do business late at night. That is now closed. 
Security cameras, alarm systems, we have spent so much on those 
types of things, but, no, it doesn't deter anybody.
    Mr. Emmer. Can you--
    Mr. Ingram. The safety stuff we have done has no 
deterrence.
    Mr. Emmer. Do you have a number for how much these 
additional measures have cost you?
    Mr. Ingram. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know 
that I can even put a number on the sales. We have two new 
restaurants. We are reinvesting. Those restaurants we are 
planning on not keeping open. That is going to lead into the 
millions of dollars until something changes in our city.
    Mr. Emmer. Lastly, have other businesses in your community 
reacted to the violence?
    Mr. Ingram. So many of them are gone, and what you are 
seeing so much is in minority parts of the city, restaurants 
are closing at a rapid pace. I believe it is 1 in 3 now that 
are closing down, and typically, those are in areas that are 
underserved. We are seeing restaurants, we are seeing 
businesses closed day in and day out, and it continues to grow. 
Right now, Minneapolis is a ghost town.
    Mr. Emmer. You talked to many restauranteurs like yourself. 
Are they experiencing similar issues?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes, I believe all of us are--a yarn store 
across the street from us has been robbed, and Little Mailbox, 
et cetera. It is across-the-board, and there is no business. We 
had seven robberies within a year and thought that we were 
being targeted. And we went out to our neighborhoods, and 
heard, ``Nope, I got robbed yesterday.'' ``No, I got robbed the 
day before.'' And nobody seems to want to share that message 
and talk about it.
    Mr. Emmer. Wow. Thank you for doing it. These catastrophic 
levels of crime across this country have made people afraid to 
go to work, to eat out with their families, to park their cars 
in the street, and simply to just be outside when it is dark. 
This is no way to live. But let's be very clear: Democrats have 
normalized this lawlessness and demonized law enforcement. As a 
result, law enforcement in many of these urban areas, like the 
Twin Cities, does not have the resources they need to keep 
people and their businesses and property safe. When residents 
call 9-1-1 for help, they are often told that no one can come 
out.
    Mr. Ingram, thank you for your time today. As Democrats 
have politicized safety and championed the destructive Defund 
the Police movement, your perspective is invaluable as a 
business owner doing your best to support your community. I 
yield back.
    Chairman Green. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the Chair of our 
Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and Insurance, 
is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The title for this 
hearing, or at least the subtitle is, ``Thoughts and Prayers 
Are Not Enough,'' which I agree with politically and 
theologically. Moses guided the children of Israel, Hebrews, 
today's Jewish people, to the banks of the Red Sea, and he 
stood there praying--14, 15 Exodus--praying. And God says to 
Moses, shut up, stop praying and start moving. And I did 
something last week I don't feel good about, but I just 
couldn't do it anymore. When we were asked to stand for 
thoughts and prayers in the Chamber after another killing, I 
went outside, and I did my own prayers, as I do every evening 
at my apartment.
    I think it is important for everybody to understand that I 
don't know how this explosion of people trying to defund the 
police has become so much of a position that I'm not sure is 
healthy. I am not saying anything about who has ever said, but 
I have heard it from three or four people. It doesn't make 
sense, so I don't embrace it.
    Mr. Ingram, thank you so much. I saw the news report on 
your work and thank you very much for what you are doing in 
your community.
    Mayor Brown, thank you for being here. You are on center 
stage of the American drama as a mayor. I grew up in public 
housing, and I got into it with somebody. We were fighting. So, 
he picked up a brick, and threw it and it hit me. Close up, you 
can see I grew a moustache to hide the stitches; I had 15. And 
I have said this to my own children, that if that had happened 
today, he wouldn't have hit me with a brick, he would have shot 
me. And then, instead of me going to the hospital and coming 
back and becoming friends, in the out, I didn't shoot him or 
anything else. I don't think I had ever seen a gun, a real live 
gun when this happened to me at 14 and 15.
    Do you think, Mayor, that Buffalo would be in a better 
position if your police department did not have to deal with 
the fact that just about everybody they stop is armed, and 
everybody they go to deal with, who are messing up the 
businesses, are armed?
    Mr. Brown. Congressman Cleaver, there are too many guns on 
the streets of communities all across the country and in 
Buffalo. Our police have had to deal with too many illegal 
weapons on the streets. And responding to Ranking Member Emmer, 
we did not defund police in the City of Buffalo. In fact, I 
have increased the budget for the police department.
    With the mass shooting in Buffalo at the Tops Supermarket, 
our police responded within 1 minute of the 9-1-1 call going 
out. And if not for the quick response of the police and fire 
departments, many more lives would have been lost in our 
community. Police were able to convince the shooter in Buffalo 
to turn himself in and not go back into the store, not go down 
the street, and they were outgunned by this individual who had 
an assault rifle. The individual was wearing military-grade 
body armor. He was encountered in the store by a security 
guard, who was a retired 30-year police officer of the Buffalo 
Police Department, who got off 11 shots. But because of the 
military-grade body armor, they had no effect on this 
individual, and he was able to kill the security guard in the 
store. But if that security officer had not engaged this White 
supremacist shooter, his stated intent in a manifesto that he 
left would have been to kill many more people in the community.
    So yes, our police are engaged all too often with people 
who have illegal weapons. And in many instances, the weapons 
start out as legal weapons someplace else and are stolen, they 
are then sold, and they become illegal weapons on our streets, 
terrifying and harming innocent citizens and tying up our 
police department who have to defend the community.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The 
gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ingram, first 
off, I want to commend you for the phenomenal way you have 
served your community through some really difficult times. The 
last few years is truly inspiring, and I want to thank my 
friend, Ranking Member Emmer, for inviting us up for this 
subcommittee today.
    The year 2020 was very challenging. It was just one of the 
most challenging years we have faced, and there is no reason to 
sugarcoat it. The pandemic and the resulting economic downturn 
paired with the social unrest happening all at the same time 
was rough on all of us, but especially for the Twin Cities.
    I want to pick up where Mr. Emmer left off. You talked 
about how your businesses had to keep your employees and 
customers safe, the cost associated with all of this, and how 
your actions compare to other businesses. Can you talk about 
how the local government's response has been specifically? I 
know many elected district attorneys are reinventing the role 
of the prosecutor from a government official who supports and 
enforces the rule of law to an official who gets to cherry pick 
which laws are worth enforcing.
    Mr. Ingram, do you take issue with the fact that some 
business owners, like yourself, may be harmed by soft-on-crime 
policies, and has this been an issue for the business community 
in the Twin Cities?
    Mr. Ingram. Thank you for that question. And, yes, I think 
many of us are afraid to even talk about violence with the 
prosecutors because suddenly it become so politicized, and it 
makes us appear to be a certain way. But we have reached out to 
the judges, and the prosecutors, and asked, how do you let the 
person who robbed me and has a track record--I believe he had 
50 priors--out within 24 hours? You don't even give me a heads-
up. I posted on social media pictures of him breaking into my 
restaurants. Maybe he is now coming for me and my family 
because he is angry with us.
    We are petrified, within the Twin Cities, that these 
criminals are being released, and we are actively trying to 
catch them and posting their photos on social media. And now, 
maybe we are the victim another time, for sure, when they come 
back to our business and rob us again.
    Mr. Timmons. So in that instance, the best practice across 
the country is that victim advocates reach out and notify the 
victim that the defendant or the alleged offender has been 
released. Did that occur?
    Mr. Ingram. It did not occur. I believe I was notified 
about a week later, and they said, just so you know, this 
gentleman is at a halfway house--I believe it was about a mile 
from where we live--and then we were notified, and I believe 
they said he had an ankle bracelet on.
    Mr. Timmons. That is not best practice, and generally 
speaking, from my time as a prosecutor, you notify the victim 
immediately. And I am sorry you had to deal with that. I hear 
from businesses of all shapes and sizes that they can't find 
employees. The labor shortage is often their top issue. I 
imagine that is the same for you. Can you talk about the issues 
you have faced in recruiting and retaining employees, given the 
challenges that we have already discussed? Is it harder to get 
people to work for you knowing that there is lawlessness and 
that the district attorneys are not going to enforce the rule 
of law?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes. For sure, it is hard to staff our 
restaurants. Nobody wants to work late at night. We didn't just 
randomly decide to walk away from that business and that 
opportunity. It is because employees didn't feel safe. It is 
because guests didn't feel safe. The hospitality industry has 
been devastated over the last year-and-a-half. And now, we have 
employees who are actively leaving because when they walk to a 
bus stop, or they get on a Lime scooter and head home, they are 
assaulted. We have had employees assaulted on their scooter 
when they got on to head home from their night shift. We have 
had employees assaulted at subway stations and bus stations. If 
you don't feel safe leaving work, you are going to choose not 
to work there anymore. You will catch a 9:00 to 5:00 job, or 
you will stay on unemployment.
    Mr. Timmons. We hear stories all over the country about 
cities that are not enforcing the rule of law. Businesses are 
just closing up and saying, this isn't worth it. Have you dealt 
with that yourself? Have you thought that this isn't worth it?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes. We feel very called within our community 
to serve our community, and we feel very called to come 
together over a meal and bring that back to our communities. 
Have I now moved some restaurants to the suburbs because that 
is where our guests are moving? We have done that, but we feel 
very called to serve our community, and we feel called to be 
here and to stand up for our community. If we don't stand now, 
and we don't start enforcing the rule of law right now, we are 
not going to have a city to return to. So yes, we could leave. 
We have thought about it, but what does that do to our 
community, and what does it do to the people whom we love and 
we want to serve?
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. Thank you. I appreciate you being here, 
and I think the pendulum swings back often, and we need to 
enforce the rule of law. We need to keep people safe. That is 
just very basic rule of law and government. With that, Mr. 
Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The 
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    [No response.]
    Chairman Green. Mr. Garcia, you are now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    [No response.]
    Chairman Green. Mr.Garcia, if you can hear me, would you 
wave?
    [No response.]
    Chairman Green. Okay. We understand that you may be having 
some technical difficulties. With this understanding, Mr. 
Garcia, we will work with you to eliminate those difficulties. 
And in the interim, the gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Garcia, who 
is also the Vice Chair of our Subcommittee on Diversity and 
Inclusion, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Garcia of Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
so much for bringing this very, very critical hearing forward 
today. I think it is as the Chairwoman Waters said: Nothing 
could be more important these days than trying to go beyond the 
prayers and thoughts into real action. And I would hope that 
this hearing will result in some proposals that we can put 
forward before the Congress because here we are once again to 
discuss gun violence, an issue that has devastated our 
communities, and our nation, and our families too frequently, 
for just far too long. And as we have covered here today, it is 
important that we consider long-term impacts of mass shootings 
as the initial shock and outrage fades from the public domain.
    My home State of Texas is tragically no stranger to such 
despicable acts of violence, as we most recently saw in Uvalde. 
The tragedy in Uvalde is an unthinkable one, but we must not 
let it fade to an unspeakable one. We will continue to fight 
for justice for the entire community impacted. And I am glad 
that today we can take time to consider the long-term impacts 
to the surrounding area.
    In Texas alone, Mr. Chairman, and it is your home State as 
well as mine, the annual cost of gun violence is $23.7 billion, 
or about $839 per person. I am confident that we can all think 
of better ways that this money could be spent, like educating 
our children, because schools should be about books and not 
bullets. It is our duty to prevent such widespread gun 
violence, both for the safety of our constituents and for their 
economic success.
    I know that the chairwoman mentioned the shooter in Uvalde, 
and, Mr. Chairman, I read the Texas House Committee report over 
the weekend, and it found that there was no legal impediment to 
the attacker buying two AR-15-style rifles, 60 magazines, and 
over 2,000 rounds of ammunition when he turned 18, most of 
which he did online in preparation when he was still 17. 
Online. And as she said, some of these platforms are allowing 
installment sales. And the real question that I have on my mind 
is, where did he get all that money, because I totaled up what 
he bought, and it was around $5,000. So, is it, Mr. Brodeur?
    Mr. Brodeur. Yes.
    Ms. Garcia of Texas. Can you shed some light on how 
financial technology companies could actually help us prevent 
illegal firearm activity? That is why we have you as an expert, 
and the rest of the panel, if anybody wants to help.
    Mr. Brodeur. Yes. It is not an easy question. If you look 
at the characteristics of perpetrators of mass shootings, many 
of them are in poverty, unemployed, and some are really 
surprised to hear about the socioeconomic characteristics of 
this specific shooter. If we are trying to use technology to 
make it harder to buy guns, I am not entirely sure it is going 
to be feasible, or that there are easy ways to make it harder 
to buy guns without legislation, to be honest.
    Ms. Garcia of Texas. Should it be so easy to just go 
online? He was 17-years-old, and the AR-15 rifle and some of 
the bullets and things--one was $2,054. Another purchase that 
he made was $1,081.42. Why is it so easy to just go online?
    Mr. Brodeur. All of the information about previous 
shootings is online. Strategies used in previous shootings are 
online. It is quite easy to get a credit card in this country, 
much easier than other countries, to be honest. Someone can get 
credit easily and buy things online. We are talking about 
usually, perpetrators who are very young, maybe 21-years-old on 
average, depending on how we define a mass shooting.
    These people are looking mostly for attention. They are on 
different networks. For instance, in my research, I look at 
networks of neo-Nazis, and I will join different networks 
online. All of the information is shared. It is so easy to get 
that information. What you can try to do is try to limit these 
networks. You mean how people will access information online, 
but in terms of limiting what can be bought online without 
limiting credit, it's easier to take your parents' credit card. 
I just don't see it, to be honest.
    Ms. Garcia of Texas. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I am 
out of time, but I do have some questions if there is a second 
round.
    Chairman Green. The gentlewoman's time has expired. The 
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 
apologize for the glitch I had earlier, but I want to thank you 
for holding this hearing and, of course, for discussing this 
critical topic of mass shootings in America.
    There have been over 340 mass shootings so far in 2022, and 
that number continues to climb. In the last 2 months, again, we 
have had three especially deadly mass shootings: at a grocery 
store; at a school; and most recently, at the 4th of July 
parade in my home State. We often see the devastating impacts 
of gun violence as it occurs on the news, but once the coverage 
dies down, communities are left to pick up the pieces and face 
the long-term outcomes.
    And as we address the horrifying consequences of mass 
shootings, we must also confront the challenges of other forms 
of gun violence that don't make the news for decades. Working-
class and minority neighborhoods have been subject to targeted 
economic discrimination including redlining, and predatory 
lending practices. Many shootings take place in the same 
systemically-disadvantaged areas, like the South and West sides 
of Chicago, where there has been a lack of jobs and investment.
    A question to our panelist, Mr. Brodeur. While limiting gun 
access, especially access to weapons of war, is a vital, 
necessary, and lifesaving first step, we must also consider 
other factors that contribute to mass shootings and gun 
violence, like disinvestment from communities, and access to 
mental health services. My question is, can you talk about the 
cycles of this investment in gun violence and how it keeps 
communities at risk?
    Mr. Brodeur. Sure. Thank you for the question. As I said, 
the first thing that should be noted is, if we are talking 
about violence in general, it is one thing. We are talking 
about mass shootings, and these are really random. It is 
incredibly hard to predict where the next mass shooting is 
going to be. I have tried. The FBI has tried. So many people 
have tried. It is really very hard to predict where it is going 
to happen. It can happen mostly in urban areas. But other than 
that, it is going to be incredibly hard to figure out where it 
is going to happen.
    In terms of business cycles in general, could this economy 
potentially lead to more mass shootings if there is a 
recession? It could, but it is going to be very hard to try to 
prevent it because we don't know where it is going to happen. 
In terms of these perpetrators needing mental health support, 
100 percent. The vast majority of them have a history of mental 
health illness that is documented, so it is not something that 
we learned is exposed, but that we knew. A doctor knew the kid, 
or the children, or the adolescent, young adult actually was 
seeing a psychiatrist, for instance. This happens quite a lot. 
So, this is one of the predictors for sure. Providing more 
healthcare to help the average young Americans who suffer with 
schizophrenia or mental health disease would be amazing just 
for the sake of their mental health, but also potentially 
preventing mass shootings.
    When we think about what we can do to financially help 
communities that are struggling with crime--if I think about 
Buffalo and Mayor Brown, this community just suffered a lot, 
and they are going to need financial support. And the thing 
that I find extremely frustrating is if you look at mass 
shootings, which are random and just happen somewhere, the 
consequences are permanent. And I like to think horizontally 
when I think about a problem, and the first thing that comes to 
mind is natural disasters. Natural disasters just occur once. 
It is random. It is going to hit somewhere. Think of a 
hurricane, and when we look at the economic consequences of 
these disasters, they are usually not permanent. They are short 
term.
    And one of the big differences between natural disasters 
and mass shootings is that with a mass shooting, there is no 
financial support for these communities. They need financial 
support after a mass shooting. This is obvious, and this might 
help to alleviate some of the economic consequences. Of course, 
some of these communities need help even before mass a 
shooting, but I am not going to lie, there is no way you can 
predict where the next mass shooting is going to be. And there 
are tons of communities that need help, those who suffer most 
from violent crime. I would target these communities if we 
would have defunding. But in general, there is no way you can 
predict where it is going to happen next, unfortunately.
    Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you so much. It looks like my 
time has expired, so I yield back to the Chair.
    Chairman Green. The gentleman's time has expired. The 
gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate 
this hearing. And one of the things that is so hard for me, 
even the title of looking at the economic cost of gun violence, 
but I understand that we need to pay attention. Who is 
profiting off of this pain and this trauma that is really 
jeopardizing so many lives across our country and really just 
hurting so many families? These costs, as we all know, have 
been felt particularly among our children, specifically school-
age children. We all know that education is by far the largest 
category of municipal bond issuance in our country as well. As 
mass shootings have increased, our education dollars have been 
increasingly funneled towards school security rather than 
investing in our teachers or our students.
    And in 2021, Mr. Chairman, the so-called school security 
industry made $3.1 billion. As The American Prospect has 
written, the financial services industry makes money lending to 
school districts to install security upgrades, and those 
upgrades manifestly do little or nothing to prevent mass 
shootings, as we continue to see. And they make more money 
lending to companies that make AR-15s, a weapon of choice for 
mass murderers of children, the same companies.
    Some banks like Citibank have previously refused to finance 
the gun industry, and I applaud them for this. However, in 
2021, Texas enacted a law that blocks banks from doing business 
with State and local governments that discriminate against the 
gun industry. This has the largest municipal bond market in the 
country. In response, Citi stated in 2021 that it did not have 
a practice policy guidance or directive that discriminates 
against firearm entities or firearm trade associations.
    Ms. Burd-Sharps, do you think that laws like the one 
enacted in Texas are intended to have negative effects, 
particularly in the municipal bond market? And what message is 
the Texas law sending to banks like Citibank that have taken 
steps to limit their exposure to the gun industry?
    Ms. Burd-Sharps. Thank you for your question. I would say 
that in the work that we have been doing, the message that is 
sending is that businesses can't take a position in terms of 
contributing to reducing these costs that I just spoke of 
today. And it is critical that institutions, that all of us not 
facilitate high-risk transactions, including, for instance, 
sales of assault weapons and weapons of war to young people, et 
cetera. And I say that working on gun violence prevention is a 
hard topic, but I think the hopeful news for me is that we do 
know research is increasingly pointing us in the direction of 
policies that do make a difference, and of practices of the 
business community, as well as of local people, that can reduce 
the kinds of injuries that are so costly to our society.
    Ms. Tlaib. No, I think the responsibility that we are 
talking about in this committee, on the financial services 
industry--they do have a role here. And according to Everytown, 
the cost of gun violence nationally is $280 billion, when first 
responders, law enforcement, and criminal justice services 
respond to mass shootings. This results in enormous costs to 
taxpayers. The research estimates that Las Vegas, Nevada, for a 
mass shooting in 2017, resulted in $600 million in taxpayer 
dollars.
    Mayor Brown, do you think it is fair that your community 
and your neighbors pay such a steep price while the gun 
companies profit from mass shootings? Do the gun companies have 
a role to play in making victims and survivors in communities 
like yours whole after mass shootings?
    Mr. Brown. Thank you for your question, Congresswoman. I 
don't think that it is fair that communities, like my community 
of Buffalo and other communities across the country that have 
suffered these mass shootings, have to bear the financial 
burden of those shootings. I think the gun companies, the gun 
manufacturers do have a role to play, and I think it is 
important for there to be liability on the part of gun 
manufacturers for these terrible crimes that continue to play 
themselves out across the country.
    As Members of Congress have stated today, there have been 
over 340 mass shootings in this country, in this year alone. 
The financial consequences are devastating to communities, and 
I believe that gun manufacturers do have a role to play. They 
should suffer liability for these crimes that are being 
committed in our communities.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman Green. The gentlewoman yields back. The 
gentlewoman from Iowa, Mrs. Axne, who is also the Vice Chair of 
our Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and 
Insurance, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Axne. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of 
our witnesses for being here. And, Mayor Brown, a sincere thank 
you to you, and my condolences to those in your community who 
have suffered so greatly. Thank you for being here with us.
    Of course, I want to start by saying that mass shootings 
and gun violence have a lot more direct impacts that are much 
more tragic than the economic impacts are, and those will 
always be more important. But of course, we are on the 
Financial Services Committee, and we need to look at whatever 
impact these shootings are having on our communities, because 
it is important to stop them, which is why I have said for 
years on end that we need an assault weapons ban back in place.
    Just this year, Iowans have seen 3 people die outside of a 
church in Ames. Very recently, 12 people were shot in April in 
Cedar Rapids, and a 15-year-old was killed and 2 others shot 
outside a high school in Des Moines, right in my district. That 
was just a few blocks from our State capital. And 
unfortunately, at a town hall a couple of weeks ago, one of 
those students at East High School called asking what Congress 
had done, and what Congress could do more so that we could fix 
this situation. And although I am quite impressed that a 15-
year-old is paying attention to politics and getting involved 
at such a young age, I almost started tearing up because it 
broke my heart that a 15-year-old had to call their 
Congresswoman and say, what else can you do so I can feel safe 
in my family and my kids that I go to school with can feel 
safe. This is a tragedy of where we are at, so I am thinking 
about these kids.
    And, Dr. Singh, I want to ask you, you have studied the 
long-term economic impacts of school shootings on the students 
at these schools. I know this isn't going to be good news for 
us to hear, but what can you tell me about what you have found?
    Ms. Singh. Looking specifically at the long-term economic 
outcomes, I will focus on some of my research along with some 
of the other academic papers on this issue where these papers 
show that after shootings, and this could be shootings where 
there are no fatalities, there is increased absenteeism. The 
students who are exposed are more likely to repeat a grade. 
When we look at the medium-term educational effects of the 
shootings, these students are less likely to go to college or 
less likely to complete college, and, of course, this would 
have longer-term impacts. And this paper finds longer-term 
impacts on earnings and the likelihood of being employed. So, 
exposed students are less likely to be employed, and their 
earnings are also lower at the ages of 24 to 26 years. There 
are long-term economic effects for these students who are 
exposed to gun violence in schools. Thank you.
    Mrs. Axne. And are there steps that we can take to help 
there?
    Ms. Singh. In one of my studies, we analyze the effect of 
the Safe Passage Program in Chicago, and the reason we were 
studying Chicago is, as most of us in this room know, the crime 
around schools is really high. What the City of Chicago did was 
they placed guards around schools, and these guards are 
civilians. They are not police officers. And they are placed 
for 2 to 3 hours in the morning, and 2 to 3 hours in the 
afternoon, so basically, during the arrival and dismissal 
times, and that helps reduce violent crime.
    And the program was effective. The effects persisted for 
even 3 years after the program was implemented. It was cost-
effective to do it because these are basically parents and 
others from the community who are doing this community 
monitoring. And the idea was that having more eyes on the 
street might help reduce crime basically, deter students from 
loitering around. They go to school more, and it also helped 
improve attendance. So, we not only see improvement in violent 
crime, but also that these students start going to school more 
often.
    The obvious question is, what is really going on here, and 
why is this program effective? One of the conjectures that we 
come up with is because these are people from the community, 
they really know the students, and we find higher effects for 
the high school students. They go to school, and instead of 
committing a crime or getting involved in criminal activities, 
they are attending the classes. Thank you.
    Mrs. Axne. Thank you so much for that, and we just have a 
little bit of time here, but the impact of school shootings on 
property values, absolutely has an impact.
    Mr. Brodeur, can you share what you found there? What is 
that impact on housing prices in areas where school shootings 
have happened?
    Mr. Brodeur. Housing prices decreased by about 2.5 percent 
usually, on average. Again, the effect is pretty much 
permanent. The effect seems to be larger in the streets or the 
localities close to the shooting, but the effect is also 
present for the rest of the county. Thank you.
    Mrs. Axne. Thank you.
    Chairman Green. The gentlelady's time has expired. I now 
recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
    Mr. Ingram, you referenced George Floyd. What that officer 
did to George Floyd was unconscionable, but you wouldn't paint 
all police officers with the same brush, would you?
    Mr. Ingram. Thank you for that question. Absolutely not.
    Chairman Green. A simple yes or no will suffice for now. 
Would you?
    Mr. Ingram. No.
    Chairman Green. Do you think that when one police officer 
commits an egregious offense, all officers ought to be 
considered to be bad officers?
    Mr. Ingram. No.
    Chairman Green. How do you feel when you hear people doing 
that, just claiming that all officers are bad because one 
officer does something or maybe multiple officers? There have 
been many egregious circumstances, but how do you feel when 
people do that?
    Mr. Ingram. It is heartbreaking.
    Chairman Green. Okay. Do you think that because one 
prosecutor releases someone or doesn't prosecute a case 
properly that you should paint all prosecutors with the same 
brush?
    Mr. Ingram. No.
    Chairman Green. One judge makes a mistake or lets someone 
out and that person commits an offense, do you think you should 
paint all judges with the same brush, Mr. Ingram?
    Mr. Ingram. No.
    Chairman Green. How do you feel when you hear people 
painting all judges with the same brush, all prosecutors with 
the same brush? The prosecutors are doing it. The liberal 
prosecutors are doing it. How do you feel when you hear that, 
Mr. Ingram?
    Mr. Ingram. I can only speak to what is happening, and--
    Chairman Green. I am not asking you about what is 
happening. You don't think that all police officers are to be 
abused verbally, and I would assume that as the good-natured 
person you are, you would not want to see all judges painted 
with the same brush, would you?
    Mr. Ingram. Correct.
    Chairman Green. Thank you. I appreciate you helping me to 
help my colleagues better understand that they shouldn't do 
that. Now, Mayor, I thank you again for being here. The 
business community has a role to play in this as well. What do 
you see as the role of the business community?
    Mr. Brown. The business community should invest equitably 
throughout the community. They should not exclude customers in 
certain parts of the community because that exacerbates 
poverty. It contributes to crime. It devalues certain areas of 
the community. In Buffalo, in the mass shooting that we 
experienced, the Tops Supermarket Company was the first company 
almost 20 years ago, supermarket chain that made a commitment 
to invest in an urban area of the City of Buffalo, in East 
Buffalo, that previously had been a food desert. And the 
investment in that store that I and others fought and 
negotiated to bring to that community became a center of 
community. People came there not only to shop, but to meet and 
spend time with friends. And so, the crime that was committed 
there was a heinous act of racist violence.
    Chairman Green. Let me intercede for just a moment. I only 
have 49 seconds or thereabouts. Do you think that the business 
community should take a public position as it relates to this 
violence, these mass shootings?
    Mr. Brown. Yes, I do.
    Chairman Green. And, Mayor, you have a Buffalo Niagara 
Partnership (BNP) similar to a chamber of commerce, and I have 
a letter from them. They indicate that earlier this year, the 
BNP stepped out of the confines of our traditional advocacy 
priorities and brought together a coalition of several regional 
chambers of commerce across New York State to call on Congress 
to pass an assault weapons ban. This action followed the racist 
mass shooting at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo on May 14, 
2022. I am proud of what you have been able to accomplish with 
your chamber of commerce. Do you think that chambers of 
commerce across the country should take similar positions?
    Mr. Brown. I absolutely do.
    Chairman Green. And I am concerned about the U.S. Chamber 
of Commerce. It seems to me that they ought to take a position 
as well.
    Mr. Brown. I agree with that.
    Chairman Green. Now, in closing, let me just share this 
quickly. In Texas, at Robb Elementary, hundreds of police 
officers were there, and we know what happened. The video 
speaks for itself. I don't condemn all police officers, but I 
do condemn those who did not move in to save lives. My uncle 
was a deputy sheriff. I am where I am today because of a deputy 
sheriff. I don't condemn all police officers, but those who are 
wrong, I do.
    I want to thank all of you for being here today, and I want 
to say that Ms. Garcia is going to be recognized, but if 
hundreds of police officers didn't take out that gunman, I 
don't think we should expect a teacher with a pistol to take on 
a gunman. Teachers ought to be allowed to teach, and we ought 
to have safety officers who do their jobs.
    With that, Ms. Garcia, you are now recognized.
    Ms. Garcia of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous 
consent to enter in the record the report that I referenced, 
the Investigative Committee on the Robb Elementary School 
shooting made by the Texas House of Representatives.
    Chairman Green. Without objection, it is so ordered.
    And I will be introducing a letter from the Buffalo Niagara 
Partnership, without objection. Also, I introduce, without 
objection, the ``Economic Cost of Gun Violence.''
    And the Chair would like to thank our witnesses for their 
testimony today.
    The Chair notes that some Members may have additional 
questions for these witnesses, which they may wish to submit in 
writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open 
for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions 
to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. 
Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days 
to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in 
the record.
    This hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:33 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

                             July 19, 2022
                             
                                [all]