[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




 
    PROFESSIONALIZING & ENRICHING THE CONGRESSIONAL INTERNSHIP AND 
                         FELLOWSHIP EXPERIENCE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

           SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                                 of the

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 29, 2021

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-03

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Select Committee on the Modernization of  
  
                                Congress
                                
                                
                                
  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                              
                                
                                


                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                    
                    
                    
                            ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
48-294               WASHINGTON : 2022                  
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
           SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                    DEREK KILMER, Washington, Chair

 ZOE LOFGREN, California              WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina,
 EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri             Vice Chair
 ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BOB LATTA, Ohio
 DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota             RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois
 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia             DAVE JOYCE, Ohio
                                      GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
                                      BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas

                            COMMITTEE STAFF

                     Yuri Beckelman, Staff Director
                 Derek Harley, Republican Staff Director
                 
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page

Chairman Derek Kilmer
      Oral Statement.............................................     1
Vice Chairman William Timmons
      Oral Statement.............................................     3

                               WITNESSES
                                panel 1

Dr. James Jones, Assistant Professor of African American Studies 
    and Sociology, Rutgers University-Newark
      Oral Statement.............................................     4
      Written Statement..........................................     7
Mr. Carlos Mark Vera, Co-Founder and Executive Director, Pay Our 
    Interns
      Oral Statement.............................................     9
      Written Statement..........................................    11
Ms. Audrey Henson, CEO and Founder, College to Congress
      Oral Statement.............................................    14
      Written Statement..........................................    17
Mr. Travis Moore, Founder and Executive Director, TechCongress
      Oral Statement.............................................    19
      Written Statement..........................................    22
Discussion.......................................................    41

                                panel 2

Ms. Emily Hashimoto, Director of Career Content, Idealist
      Oral Statement.............................................    49
      Written Statement..........................................    52
Ms. Amiko Matsumoto, Senior Executive Coach and Facilitator, The 
    Partnership for Public Service
      Oral Statement.............................................    56
      Written Statement..........................................    59
Mr. Rod Adams, US and Mexico Talent Acquisition and Onboarding 
    Leader, PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC)
      Oral Statement.............................................    62
      Written Statement..........................................    65
Discussion.......................................................    68


   PROFESSIONALIZING AND ENRICHING THE CONGRESSIONAL INTERNSHIP AND 
                         FELLOWSHIP EXPERIENCE

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2021

                  House of Representatives,
                            Select Committee on the
                                 Modernization of Congress,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:02 p.m., via 
Zoom, Hon. Derek Kilmer [chairman of the committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Kilmer, Cleaver, Perlmutter, 
Phillips, Timmons, Rodney Davis of Illinois, and Van Duyne.
    The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
    Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any time.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes to give an opening 
statement. I promise I will try to keep it under 5 minutes.
    Two weeks ago, we invited our colleagues to a Member Day 
hearing so that they could share their ideas for how to make 
Congress work better for the American people. We heard a lot of 
great ideas. I think it is clear that there remains a lot of 
opportunity for us to make some positive change over the next 
20 months or so.
    But one area that really stood out to the members of this 
committee at our Member Day hearing was just the various 
recommendations for improving staff capacity and diversity.
    I would like to say this is a new issue--it is not. Our 
colleagues raised similar concerns about staff recruitment and 
retention and diversity in our Member Day hearing at the start 
of the 116th Congress. And we listened to those concerns, and 
we had several hearings and virtual discussions focused on 
boosting staff capacity and diversity. In fact, the committee 
made a number of strong recommendations in this space and I am 
proud of the work we did.
    But that work is far from finished. The staffing 
recommendations we made in the 116th began to get at some of 
the challenges staff face, but those challenges are many, and 
for a bunch of institutional and political reasons they can be 
hard to fix.
    So the irony is that these issues should be easy, because 
if there is anything we can all agree on it is that our staff 
are dedicated public servants who deserve the kind of pay and 
benefits that modern workplaces offer.
    Our staff choose careers on the Hill despite the long hours 
and lower pay compared to what they could make in the executive 
branch or the private sector.
    They have a relative lack of job security. Like the Members 
of this Committee, they are on a 2-year contract with hundreds 
of thousands of people making the decision about contract 
extensions.
    We know that Congress is fortunate, though, to attract such 
talented and hardworking staff, and we also know that it is 
hard to keep them here.
    I am afraid it is going to keep getting harder unless we 
figure out how to make Congress a place that not only attracts, 
but holds on to talented staff.
    So what does all this have to do with professionalizing and 
enriching the congressional internship and fellowship 
experience, which is the topic of our hearing today?
    Well, the answer is everything. Everything because 
internships are really the main pipeline to a career on the 
Hill. So many staffers begin their Hill career as interns and 
it is how you get a foot in the door and begin to work your way 
up the staffing ladder.
    I will confess, the summer after my freshman year of 
college I served as an intern for a Member of Congress for whom 
I have great affection, for whom I have tremendous respect, and 
with whom during my internship I had very limited interaction.
    In fact, the longest I got to spend with him was on my very 
final day of my internship. He invited me into his office and 
he said, ``I am now going to teach you the most important 
lesson of your internship.''
    And I leaned forward eager to get his lesson. And he said, 
``There are people in this town who would kill to learn what I 
am about to share with you.''
    And I leaned further forward in my chair. Then he opened up 
his desk drawer, he pulled out a cigar, and he said, ``I am 
going to teach you how to light and smoke a cigar.''
    So that was my internship experience. But, listen, we know 
that many Hill careers do begin as internships. What we don't 
know is how many potential Hill careers end because of 
internships. And.
    That is something we really need to consider. Through no 
fault of their own, some interns end up with supervisors who 
are poorly trained at managing, if they are trained at all. 
There can be a lack of consistency to the work they are given 
or a lack of clarity around professional goals. Others may feel 
out of place because they don't see other interns who look like 
them or who share common backgrounds and experience. And these 
are deterrents to pursuing a career on the Hill.
    They are also things we can and should fix. Congress needs 
to figure out how to recruit interns who reflect the diversity 
of our constituencies and then provide those interns with an 
experience that makes them want to pursue a career on the Hill.
    The same logic applies to fellows. Congress desperately 
needs the expertise that fellows can provide, but the process 
of getting them to the Hill can be exceedingly difficult. While 
rules governing Hill fellowships are necessary, navigating them 
shouldn't be a deterrent to serving.
    So streamlining the process for placing fellows and 
ensuring that their Hill experience is fulfilling will actually 
help Congress retain fellows.
    So I am looking forward to hearing what the experts who are 
joining us today recommend. This committee is all about good 
ideas for making Congress a more effective and efficient 
institution. I think we can learn a lot by listening to people 
who have done the research and figured out what it takes to 
make internship and fellowship programs successful.
    So with that, I would like to now invite Vice Chair Timmons 
to share some opening remarks as well.
    [The statement of The Chairman follows:]
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to both our panels of witnesses for being 
here today to talk about staffing challenges on Capitol Hill.
    A robust Capitol internship program is crucial to the 
success of not only Members of Congress, but those young people 
who make up that program. Many staff here in Congress and some 
Members started out as interns on the Hill.
    I actually was an intern in 2006. I was fortunate enough to 
transition to a job as a staff assistant, and I was working for 
then Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. And when he decided not 
to run for office, I actually left the Hill and moved back to 
South Carolina because pay was just generally abysmal, and it 
was hard to make ends meet.
    So I know these challenges personally, as I am sure several 
of you do as well.
    The internship program has so much potential. It can do so 
much good. But, unfortunately, for too many people internships 
are an obstacle, not a stepping stone in their career.
    For years, committees in Congress have talked about 
staffing challenges. As far back as 1946, recommendations have 
been made regarding congressional staffing. That just goes to 
show how hard these institutional challenges are to fix.
    Attracting talented and hardworking interns and retaining 
qualified staff is a struggle for many offices on the Hill. I 
am looking forward to hearing from our witnesses today on what 
recommendations we can work towards to keep that talent here on 
the Hill.
    The committee made several recommendations on this topic in 
the 116th Congress, and I welcome discussion on how we can 
improve and build upon those recommendations in order to 
attract and retain qualified and diverse interns and staff.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I am looking forward to this 
hearing. And I will yield back. Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Timmons follows:]
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair.
    Today, we have two panels of witnesses. Our first panel 
features four experts on congressional internships and 
fellowships, and our second panel features three witnesses who 
will share best practices and experiences from running 
successful internship programs off the Hill.
    Witnesses are reminded that your oral testimony will be 
limited to 5 minutes. And without objection, your written 
statements will be made part of the record.
    Our first witness is Dr. James Jones. Dr. Jones is an 
assistant professor at Rutgers University and a leading expert 
on congressional staff diversity. He has authored two 
groundbreaking policy reports on racial representation among 
congressional staff, including ``The Color of Congress,'' which 
analyzed racial representation among House interns.
    Dr. Jones is a former congressional intern. We are part of 
a club.
    Dr. Jones, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an 
oral presentation of your testimony.

STATEMENTS OF DR. JAMES R. JONES, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, RUTGERS 
   UNIVERSITY-NEWARK, ON BEHALF OF HIMSELF; CARLOS VERA, CO-
FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PAY OUR INTERNS; AUDREY HENSON, 
  FOUNDER, COLLEGE TO CONGRESS; AND TRAVIS MOORE, FOUNDER AND 
                     DIRECTOR, TECHCONGRESS

                  STATEMENT OF JAMES R. JONES

    Mr. Jones. Thank you so much.
    Good afternoon, Chair Kilmer, Vice Chair Timmons, and other 
members of the committee. Thank you so much for the opportunity 
to speak with you. As you mentioned, I am here because a paid 
congressional internship changed my life.
    As a CBCF intern, I observed the inner workings of 
Congress, which provided me with an education on democratic 
institution that far surpassed anything I learned as a 
political science major at college.
    At the same time, I witnessed the shortcomings of Congress 
as an institution where people of color are underrepresented in 
the congressional workplace overall and conspicuously absent 
from top staff positions.
    This work experience set me along a path to become a 
sociologist, and I have spent my academic career studying how 
inequality in the congressional workplace is created and 
maintained and its effects on our democracy.
    Today, I want to talk to you about one dimension of my 
research and what I believe to be the most important reforms 
that Congress can adopt to improve racial representation in its 
workplace: collecting the data necessary to see and fight 
inequality.
    As you know, in 2018, Congress passed legislation to 
provide House and Senate offices with allowances for paid 
internships. I led a research project for Pay Our Interns that 
investigated who congressional offices paid that first year.
    Now, sadly, we found that these paid opportunities were 
unequally distributed along racial lines. In our last report, 
``Who Congress Pays,'' we showed that White students were 
overrepresented amongst paid interns and Black and Latino 
students were underrepresented.
    For example, White students make up about 52 percent of the 
national undergraduate population, but accounted for about 76 
percent of paid interns. In contrast, Black and Latino students 
make up about 15 and 20 percent of the undergraduate population 
but accounted for 7 percent and about 8 percent of paid 
interns, respectively.
    Now, as you guys have mentioned, these findings are 
disappointing for many reasons, but chief among them is that we 
know that internships often lead to paid staff positions and 
even often lead you to becoming a Member of Congress 
themselves.
    Paying congressional interns for the labor is an important 
first step in strengthening congressional capacity. However, as 
my research indicates, there is so much more work to be done. 
There is a need for more funding to pay interns a living wage, 
and congressional offices should adopt more diverse recruitment 
practices.
    However, increasing racial representation amongst 
congressional interns is not just about resources and 
recruitment. It is also about establishing and promoting 
transparent hiring practices.
    Let me explain how this all works together.
    As I see it, what sets Congress apart from the many other 
workplaces that are majority White is that congressional 
workplaces are exempt from many Federal workplace laws.
    These exemptions have made Congress a nontransparent and 
insular work institution, and they are a key mechanism through 
which racial inequality is created and maintained.
    So, for example, Congress does not collect demographic data 
about the racial and gender identities of its workers. Most 
employers are required by Federal law to collect these data and 
this is a process which is often a part of new employee 
onboarding.
    These demographic data have been an invaluable resource for 
researchers like myself to investigate the presence of 
discrimination. Put simply, these data help determine racial 
and gender disparities in pay, promotion, and retention.
    Now, unfortunately, Members of Congress have exempted 
themselves from these demographic reporting requirements. This 
lack of transparency makes the congressional workplace a black 
box where racial inequality is allowed to fester undisturbed.
    It also denies voters the ability to hold their elected 
officials accountable for hiring staffers and interns who look 
like them. As we know, in a democracy the perspectives of 
voters is paramount. In order for them to make informed 
decisions about how they are represented, they need 
information. So this opacity is in a sense a threat to our 
democratic process and an inclusive and multiracial democracy.
    Last year, Representative Aguilar successfully proposed an 
amendment to the legislative branch appropriations bill to 
collect demographic data on all paid House interns as a method 
of improving transparency and representation. This is a step in 
the right direction.
    However, Congress should go further. It needs to collect 
and publish demographic data on paid and unpaid interns, as 
well as fellows, to ensure that these work opportunities are 
equitably distributed.
    Data collection should include information about their race 
and their gender, as well as other important factors, like 
socioeconomic status, in order to identify if those who are 
most economically disadvantaged are able to work in the 
People's House.
    Now, to be sure, these data alone will not solve the 
problem of an unrepresented class of interns and fellows. 
However, we cannot address this vexing democratic dilemma 
without it. This information is vital for understanding the 
scope of the problem, setting benchmarks, and measuring 
progress.
    It matters who works in the Halls of Congress. It is often 
said that today's interns are tomorrow's leaders. Today, the 
highest ranking women in government, Speaker of the House Nancy 
Pelosi and Vice President Kamala Harris, both began their 
political careers as congressional interns.
    It is vital that Congress does everything possible to 
ensure that the leaders of tomorrow reflect the diversity of 
this country. To do this, Congress must adopt diverse and 
transparent hiring practices.
    Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Jones follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Jones.
    Our second witness is Carlos Vera. Mr. Vera is the co-
founder and current executive director of Pay Our Interns.
    Originally from Colombia, Carlos was raised in California, 
but moved to Washington, D.C., to attend American University. 
While at AU, Carlos was an unpaid intern at the White House, 
the European Parliament, and the House of Representatives.
    Carlos' efforts on Capitol Hill led him to be named a 
Forbes 30 Under 30 Honoree, an Echoing Green Fellow, a 
Camelback Ventures Fellow, a Top 20 Changemaker by NBC Latino, 
and an Aspen Ideas Fellow.
    Mr. Vera, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an 
oral presentation of your testimony.

                    STATEMENT OF CARLOS VERA

    Mr. Vera. Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chair Timmons, members of 
the Select Committee, thank you so much for inviting me to 
testify on this important topic.
    My name is Carlos Vera, and I am not only the ED of Pay Our 
Interns, but I am also a former unpaid House intern myself.
    Pay Our Interns is all about creating equitable pathways so 
that we have institutions that reflect our great Nation. The 
recent report we released alongside Dr. Jones shows that there 
is much more work to be done.
    Students who attend private universities are 
disproportionately overrepresented compared to those who go to 
public schools. We found virtually zero students who attend 
community colleges.
    And, of course, the racial demographics need to improve, 
and that is because equity needs to be put at the center of 
this program.
    With that being said, Congress should be proud of how far 
along it has come. In 2017, when Pay Our Interns released our 
report, it showed that less than 10 percent of House offices 
offered paid internships. That number now is over 90 percent.
    Here are some recommendations that we believe will 
strengthen the program.
    The fund for interns needs to increase. Our data shows that 
the average stipend for a House intern is about $1,600 for a 
full internship. That simply is not enough to live and intern 
in D.C.
    Thankfully, there is effort by Representatives Adam Smith 
and Seth Moulton that would increase the fund to $40,000. This 
will allow for stipends to increase closer to $15 an hour.
    Additionally, the internship fund not only is accessible to 
personal offices, but also leadership offices. Unfortunately, 
committees do not have dedicated funding to pay their interns.
    And we know that some of the most memorable, enriching ones 
are in committees. So there is an effort being rep by Darren 
Soto that would provide $70,000 for each committee to pay 
interns and fellows.
    We also believe that you need to broaden recruitment. The 
reason why top schools and those in D.C. are overrepresented in 
the intern population is because those schools have large 
endowments, they have resources, they have buildings and staff 
that basically make sure that their students get these 
opportunities.
    State schools, community colleges, and MSIs simply cannot 
compete. That is why we believe that it is important, you know, 
look at your district. If you have a community college, if you 
have a Tribal college, reach out, partner with the career 
center, with the political science department. Do a quick 20, 
30-minute webinar. That will make a huge difference.
    And beyond that, it is also about equitable access and 
transparency. I was at a college in Wisconsin encouraging 
students to apply and one of them got on the website of their 
Member and they raised their hand and they showed their phone, 
and the Member's website stated that all their internships were 
unpaid, even though I personally knew that they did pay some 
interns.
    Believe it or not, that is a huge deterrent for a lot of 
folks. The single factor in deciding whether they apply or not 
is, ``Can I afford to come to D.C.?''
    So we highly encourage offices, you know, you don't have to 
put how much money, because I get that it fluctuates, but at 
least putting that a stipend is available really incentivizes 
working class youth to apply for these positions, especially 
since our study showed that 90 percent of House offices either 
don't mention pay or mention all internships are unpaid.
    Additionally, we believe in expanding remote access. 
Current House rules only allow for interns to telework during 
pandemics and other emergencies. We believe it should be 
permanent. Representatives Jayapal and Omar are leading the 
push to make this permanent, and this will allow folks that 
could intern from their home in Idaho, Texas, or wherever in 
the country.
    We believe that the committee should look at creating an 
intern support office. Once a fund was created over 80 offices 
reached out for help, because we know a lot of intern 
coordinators are just a year older than interns and have other 
responsibilities. By having an office dedicated to this, it 
could really be a game-changer.
    The last one is looking at housing. There is an empty 
dormitory building used for the now defunct House page program. 
It is no longer being used and Congress should consider using 
that for working class youth.
    And most importantly, looking at increasing the MRA. Our 
work will be futile if interns become staffers and they have to 
quit because they can't afford to live in D.C.
    And, lastly I am very encouraged because in a time of deep 
polarization, the fact that Republicans and Democrats have come 
together to work on this gives me hope.
    Thank you very much.
    [The statement of Mr. Vera follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    
      
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Vera.
    Next, we will hear from Audrey Henson. Ms. Henson founded 
College to Congress in 2016, a nonprofit dedicated to creating 
a more diverse, inclusive, and effective Congress by empowering 
the next generation of public servants after being inspired by 
her experience landing and navigating her first congressional 
internship.
    A Pell Grant student, Ms. Henson had to work two part-time 
jobs and take out student loans to afford the opportunity to 
intern for free in Congress and later became a full-time 
staffer.
    College to Congress is disrupting the pipeline of 
congressional staff and systematically changing the way our 
laws are written by helping students from rural, low income, 
and disadvantaged backgrounds secure full-time internships in 
Congress and covering the actual cost of an unpaid internship.
    Ms. Henson, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF AUDREY HENSON

    Ms. Henson. Thank you, and good afternoon, Chairman Kilmer, 
Vice Chairman Timmons, members of the committee staff, and, of 
course, good afternoon, interns. Thank you for having me back 
here today to provide some recommendations on how we can 
improve congressional internships.
    My name is Audrey Henson, and I am the founder and CEO of 
College to Congress, a nonprofit I started in 2016 to 
systemically change Congress by empowering a diverse, 
inclusive, and effective generation of public servants.
    I am here before you today to deliver some innovative and 
out-of-the-box solutions that I think Congress can adopt pretty 
quickly to start to fix this problem that, quite honestly, is 
having a profound negative effect not only in your offices here 
in Washington, but also back home in your districts.
    As we all know and have agreed today, internship 
opportunities are the hallmark of a Member of Congress' tenure. 
We know that a congressional internship often leads to a job on 
the Hill, a career in public service, and at times can inspire 
a run for a future political office.
    But what about the vast majority of interns who end up 
going back home to the district?
    Although that internship impacted that one student, it 
shouldn't have ended there. The knowledge and the skills that 
they learned in our Nation's leading institution should have an 
exponential ripple effect inspiring dozens, if not hundreds, to 
become more civically engaged and have a more favorable view on 
Congress.
    To encourage this outcome, we must ensure that internships 
are meaningful, that they are engaging, that they are 
overwhelmingly a positive experience. And you are going to get 
to do that by guaranteeing that interns have the training they 
need to succeed and streamlining the application process.
    To guarantee that interns are adequately trained and to 
succeed on day one of that internship and make sure it is right 
for them, we are recommending a public-private partnership with 
College to Congress, so that we can provide training and 
resources before they even arrive in Washington.
    Each office has the sole responsibility of shaping their 
own internship programs and equipping interns with skills that 
lead to future professional and personal success. But what if 
that office is unable to provide that world-class experience we 
all strive for?
    We all know what it is like to have an intern coordinator 
who has way more work than they have time to do, maybe it is 
approps season and the leg staff doesn't have much one-on-one 
time.
    Well, that is why we think Congress desperately needs to 
standardize training for all incoming interns before they even 
arrive.
    So far, College to Congress has trained more than 800 
prospective interns on our own curriculum, C2C-University. Our 
coursework teaches interns the ins and outs of Congress, 
everything from answering the phones to even introducing 
legislation, so that they are ready to serve your office and 
your constituents on their very first day.
    C2C-University prepares them for a successful and 
meaningful experience and helps students decide beforehand if 
they actually want to invest their career on Capitol Hill and 
spend their summer--and sometimes even their savings--trying to 
figure out what they want to do with their life.
    As you can imagine, training them beforehand is going to 
have the added benefit of creating a better experience and 
match with your office as well.
    We recommend that Congress engages in a public-private 
partnership with College to Congress to equip prospective and 
current interns with the skills they need to be successful in 
your office and beyond.
    So, much like the actual internship program, the 
application process is also a logistical nightmare for students 
and offices. Each office has a different requirement and dates 
that vary from office to office, making it challenging to find 
the right fit.
    One straightforward solution to help fix this problem would 
be for the House to adopt a standard application that all 
offices would use that makes it more accessible as well for 
interns to apply and to figure out where they should go intern.
    This common application would ask basic demographic 
questions, include written answers, like why they want to 
intern, what policy issues they are interested in, and what 
leadership management style they prefer.
    A standard application ensures the interns are matched with 
the right offices and they participate in the most meaningful 
opportunities available. It also streamlines the process of you 
finding your constituents who are interested in coming up and 
interning.
    Congressional districts, your office up here, would all 
benefit from this common application.
    Members of Congress have an obligation to their 
constituents to provide a world-class opportunity that benefits 
not only their office, but also their communities back home. An 
internship can serve as a gateway to a career on Capitol Hill.
    But for those who take their talents elsewhere, we should 
strive to leave a lasting impact that shapes the future of so 
many more that don't make it to Capitol Hill.
    We all agree that interns deserve to be paid more and that 
we should expand the availability of remote internships. But 
what good does that do if they aren't meaningful?
    We at College to Congress strongly believe that Congress 
can provide these meaningful opportunities--with relative 
ease--by first creating this public-private partnership with 
us. Second, creating a common application that the House 
offices all use. And third, ensuring that every opportunity is 
truly meaningful.
    I am more than happy to dig into your questions and provide 
more detail on how this can be achieved, and, of course, 
partner with your offices to ensure that you are providing 
meaningful opportunities that are sure to last a lifetime and 
not just a semester.
    Thank you.
    [The statement of Audrey Henson follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    
       
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Henson.
    And our final witness on this panel is Travis Moore, 
founder and director of TechCongress. Previously, Mr. Moore was 
the legislative director for Representative Henry Waxman, the 
former chairman and ranking member of the Energy and Commerce 
Committee, who had jurisdiction over wide-ranging matters of 
technology policymaking.
    He has launched a number of programs to build human capital 
and improve technological capacity inside and outside of 
Congress, including the first congressional digital 
communications training program in Congress.
    Mr. Moore, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF TRAVIS MOORE

    Mr. Moore. Wonderful.
    Well, thank you, Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chairman Timmons, 
and esteemed members of the committee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to speak with you today.
    I am the founder of TechCongress, and we are a startup 
nonprofit placing computer scientists, engineers, and other 
technologists as policy advisers to Members of Congress through 
our Congressional Innovation Fellowships.
    Technology is reshaping society--and Congress and its 
work--in fundamental ways and with increasing speed. But many 
of our brightest and most creative problem solvers, with hugely 
relevant tech and national security experience, who want to 
serve their country in Congress, simply can't make it through 
the front door of Capitol Hill.
    I founded TechCongress because I needed it when I was a 
staffer. In 2013, the House was voting on the Cyber 
Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act. This was a tough vote 
for my then boss, Representative Henry Waxman, and in order to 
make an informed vote recommendation, I was trying to 
understand a few technical concepts. What is personally 
identifiable information? What did it mean to anonymize data?
    I am sure you and all of your staffs have been in that 
exact situation. You have a tough vote in front of you and you 
are trying to understand the concept so that you can make the 
best decision.
    Well, I searched for staff within Congress that could help 
me walk through my questions. But I found that there weren't 
staff on Capitol Hill with the necessary tech expertise to help 
me. As a result, I went outside the building to a tech company 
lobbyist for advice.
    And that is because, out of the 3,500 legislative staff 
serving in Congress, at my best estimate there are fewer than 
20 with meaningful training and backgrounds in technology.
    Now why is that?
    It is not for lack of supply. We have had 865 technologists 
apply for our programs over the last year, some of whom were 
willing to take six-figure pay cuts to work in Congress.
    And, importantly, these are candidates that come from 
communities vastly underrepresented in Congress, including 
underrepresented people of color, women, and veterans. In fact, 
nearly 25 percent of our fellows to date are veterans, over 43 
percent are people of color, which I am extraordinarily proud 
of.
    We are the first organization in Washington or politics to 
offer a referral award for women, underrepresented people of 
color, and veterans to join our program.
    But the core staffing challenge for Capitol Hill is that 
the pipeline that feeds staffing roles have not evolved to meet 
the needs of the institution and the country. If you are a 
technologist with professional experience who wants to serve 
your country in Congress, there is no clear entryway for you.
    Fellowships can help solve that problem, however. And here 
is the good news, we are making progress on building tech 
capacity in Congress while supporting the incredibly 
hardworking and underresourced staff on Capitol Hill.
    First, Congress is hiring technical staff, including a 
number of our alumni. We are proud to see this incremental 
progress and we need much more.
    Second, Congress is creating tech talent pipelines. 
Senators Cotton and Shaheen offered the Technology National 
Security Fellowship program as part of the Defense 
Authorization in 2020. This fellowship is a joint program 
between DOD and Congress and the first cohort of recent STEM 
grads will arrive on Capitol Hill this fall.
    Third, we had a team of fellows that were able to pilot the 
bipartisan proposal from Leader Hoyer and Leader McCarthy for a 
Congressional Digital Service on this very committee, and we 
are so, so grateful for your hosting of our team.
    And, fourth, fellowships are building bipartisan working 
relationships. We have had great ideological diversity in our 
program. Fellows end up being frequent collaborators in an 
institution where, let's be frank, bipartisan relationships are 
increasingly on the wane.
    But we can do more, and I would like to highlight few 
recommendations for how Congress can better invest in and 
support fellowship programs.
    First, Congress should expand the two fellowship programs 
it already funds and operates, the Technology and National 
Security Fellowship and the Wounded Warrior Fellowship Program. 
Because so many veterans have significant technical expertise 
from their time in military service, expanding these programs 
would have the dual benefit of meeting the need for both 
national security and technical talent.
    In addition, Congress should encourage other committees, 
including Energy and Commerce and Veterans' Affairs, to follow 
the lead of HASC and SASC and create parallel fellowship 
program pipelines for STEM grads to enter Congress and those 
agencies.
    And finally, Congress should improve how it supports 
fellowship programs, including by creating a central 
registration system for fellows and detailees, developing 
training opportunities with CRS and the new Staff Academy, 
creating opportunities to network and gather, like exists for 
summer interns, and working with OPM to help Presidential 
Management Fellows learn about opportunities to serve in 
Congress.
    So thank you for having me and for all the hard work of the 
committee to date, and I look forward to questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Moore follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Moore. And way to stick the 
landing on the 5 minutes.
    We are now going to move to questions. The order I have is 
myself, and then Vice Chair Timmons, then Mr. Cleaver, then Mr. 
Davis, then Mr. Perlmutter, and then Mr. Phillips. And then we 
will slot folks in if they show up afterwards.
    So let me start by just recognizing myself for 5 minutes. I 
want to start with Mr. Vera.
    Your report found that 92.5 percent of Representatives use 
the allowance that is provided to pay interns. This isn't 
coming out of a Member's budget. So why do you think that 
number isn't 100 percent?
    In doing the research for your reports on Hill internships, 
were you able to discern why some personal offices still have 
unpaid internships? And what explanation do offices have for 
that?
    Mr. Vera. Chairman, you bring up a great point. The way 
that appropriators created this fund was separate from the MRA. 
You use it. It doesn't count against it. It doesn't count 
against your cap. So there really is no reason not to use it.
    What we have noticed is, I think one is that old belief of, 
``Oh, my constituents will be proud that I sent some money back 
to the Treasury,'' I guess, which really doesn't make sense.
    Or the second I think is some offices don't really know how 
to access it or just have a lot of questions around it, which I 
think kind of goes to support.
    And then I think third is, it is a minority, but some 
offices don't really see it as valuable. And we are obviously 
trying to change that.
    The Chairman. You think there are recommendations this 
committee could make to get that number a little closer to 100 
percent?
    Mr. Vera. Well, I think it wouldn't hurt, because I know 
that the CAO is tracking by quarter how much each office is 
using, reaching out and kind of trying to get a sort of 
discussion as to why they are not using it. Because, like you 
said, there really is no reason not to use it.
    The Chairman. Mr. Moore, I wanted to follow up with you as 
well.
    So did the fellows in your program by and large go on to 
careers in Congress? And can you discuss just some of the 
barriers they may run into when trying to start their career in 
Congress after a fellowship?
    Mr. Moore. Sure, yeah.
    So we explicitly select for folks that do want to start 
their careers in Congress. And, again, there are hundreds and 
hundreds of folks coming from Silicon Valley or the tech 
industry that want to do this work and it is a question of 
creating a pathway for them.
    Most want to stay, but it is hard. I mean, Congress is an 
incredibly competitive workplace.
    I will say what makes it harder are some of the--Congress 
is sort of unique in how untransparent it is about some of its 
hiring. I was looking at the House job board yesterday and read 
a position that said something like: Senior Democrat is seeking 
highly energetic, motivated, organized staffer.
    In no other world or industry, say, you are Google, are you 
going to post: Tech company looking for engineer to do 
engineering roles. We need more transparency in the hiring 
process.
    And I do think that there are other things that Congress 
could do, like trainings through the Staff Academy, gatherings 
modeled on the summer intern series, that would help with 
fellows.
    The Chairman. I want to ask the same question that I asked 
to Mr. Vera, though, Travis. So particularly with regard to the 
posting that you shared, so if you are this committee, are 
there particular recommendations that we could make to address 
this?
    Mr. Moore. So I would say I don't know whether you can 
mandate that Members name the Member that they are hiring for 
when they are introducing job postings. I think that would 
help.
    I saw on our Slack yesterday, around a specific job, a 
dozen messages for folks trying to just figure out which Member 
was hiring for a tech staffer. So I think that is one.
    I think having a centralized job board that is independent 
of party. I know each caucus has their own job board, but you 
go to House.gov in the Clerk's Office, it is not there. The 
Clerk's Office, that website says, call the clerk or show up to 
the Ford Building if you want a list of recent vacancies.
    And I also think investing in H.R. software that is 
available to all of your teams that helps you sort through 
applications. I know when we got applications for roles, we get 
500 applications. You need the tools to help you sort through 
those. Those are things that the institution could invest in 
and make available to offices.
    The Chairman. Terrific.
    Let me yield back the remainder of my time.
    Vice Chair Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    First, Mr. Vera, we are updating our website right now to 
say that we offer competitive intern pay. I looked on our 
website and I, literally, I was like, well, this is an easy 
fix. So thank you for that. It is getting updated right now.
    I also wanted to ask you, so all these numbers are hard to 
get because I guess there is an assumption that interns are 
working 40 hours a week, maybe 40-plus on a full session week, 
or maybe less on weeks that we are not in session. And then 
obviously the pandemic creates some challenges because nobody 
is in the office.
    So you referenced a number, 92 percent were using the fund 
for interns in D.C., and you referenced a quarter system. What 
quarter was that?
    Mr. Vera. So what we looked at was payroll records from 
July to September of 2019. We did not do last year because of 
the pandemic. And we did not, we have got to be fair to 
Members, because we knew that there were definitely some 
hiccups there.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    And I think, and this is to Dr. Jones' point, I mean, we 
really don't have good metrics for a lot of these things. We 
don't have good ways to track it.
    I mean, if you are paying somebody 16--and I have been 
texting with my chief of staff and my deputy chief of staff 
about this, because, I have to admit, I do defer to them on a 
lot of this--but if you are paying them $1,600, $1,800 a month 
but they are not working 40 hours a week, there is kind of this 
question there.
    And then, I mean, I don't know. It is very complicated.
    So I guess a standardized approach to this to where it is 
not a bulk pay, if we went hourly. But, again, that is not how 
it is done right now. So I guess there is some standardization 
so we are all using the same kind of language about this.
    And, Dr. Jones, to your point, I mean, I can't believe that 
we in 2021 are not tracking diversity data as it relates to 
hirings and internship.
    The methodology--I know that it was very painstaking to 
actually create the data that you are referencing--but the 
methodology is still imperfect.
    So I guess the question becomes, maybe instead of creating 
the transparency that you are referencing--and I would be in 
favor of it, but I can understand certain people might not--but 
what do you think about anonymizing it to where we are more 
talking about Congress as a whole as opposed to getting 
something that a Member could potentially have a ``gotcha'' 
moment?
    Maybe an easier thing to do would be to anonymize the data 
just so we can say the House as a whole. What are your thoughts 
on that?
    Mr. Jones. Yeah. So I think this is a good point. This is 
actually the way that I think about this personally, because I 
actually think it is an institutional problem. It is not one 
particular Member of Congress.
    And so I think there are various ways in which you could 
present the data. But I think the question is--I think we have 
a lot of questions. And as researchers, there is a lot we 
actually just don't know because of this data.
    So if I can go back to your point that you just brought up, 
just coming up with these figures. So one is us getting this 
data that is not available, but then it is using the data that 
the House and the Senate does provide. And it is really a 
little bit complicated. It is all about how staff are paid and 
this data is reported.
    So, for instance, we looked at that first year the House 
implemented this policy from April 2019 to September. And so 
that is where you get our averages about the average stipend. 
So in the House, I believe, it was around $1,600, and that is 
for about 6 weeks.
    Now, to get that, what the House reports is the intern's 
first and last names, their office, and their pay. So there is 
this wide variation.
    And in some instances the data is actually really bad 
because sometimes an office will input that a large chunk of 
money for just one day of work or one week of work. And so it 
is this really complicated and not standardized way of how 
employees are being paid.
    And we don't know how many hours. So this is just on a 
length of time on that question.
    Mr. Timmons. I am with you. Let me finish up. I don't want 
to go over my time.
    I feel like there might be an opportunity to use technology 
to create a portal where we can standardize all this 
information, gather the data, and maybe even do some more 
standardized onboarding.
    I mean, I know every office has to deal with onboarding. So 
if there was a portal that we put all of this information into 
and then we could learn from it and it could be more 
instructive of what policies we need going forward that may be 
helpful.
    Mr. Chair, I am not going to go over. I yield back. Thank 
you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Vice Chair Timmons.
    Next up, Mr. Cleaver.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman. 
Thank you very much.
    I want to follow the rules. Perlmutter and Davis don't have 
on ties. I think--I mean, that is probably interfering with our 
ability to get interns. But I will leave that to the two people 
in charge and proceed.
    Thank you for being here, all of the witnesses today, and 
you made some very interesting comments.
    One of the things I want to follow up on--I think it was 
Mr. Vera who may have said this--about 12 years ago my daughter 
was interning in Kit Bond's office on the Senate side. She 
stayed at the Johnson dorm, I think it was called Johnson, and 
it cost $800 a month.
    So my wife and I actually had to pay for her to be an 
intern, $800 a month for the rent, and then we had to pay for 
her living costs. And I think that that kind of thing is 
probably discouraging people from wanting to do it unless they 
come from families that are well off, and most of them are not.
    I am going to ask you a question. What amount of money, Ms. 
Henson, all of you, Mr. Vera, Mr. Moore, what amount of money 
do you think would be acceptable and actually realistic for an 
intern to be in Washington each month? I know it will be a 
guess, but I want to find out how close I am thinking to what 
reality is.
    Ms. Henson. It is a great question, Congressman.
    When we have looked at the last 4 years and what we have to 
provide to support our interns, it ends up being about $16,000, 
$1,700 a month. You have to take into account D.C. rent, 
professional clothing, food, their flight to and from 
Washington.
    That can break down a couple different ways. I think one of 
the easiest places to start is to match D.C. minimum wage. They 
are working in D.C. and they are not even making the D.C. 
minimum wage here.
    And so that could be one easy place to just start right 
away.
    Mr. Cleaver. Yeah, that is really embarrassing. I mean, we 
are in the District and not even honoring the law.
    Anybody else with something that would be dramatically 
different?
    Mr. Jones. I would go around almost about $5,000. And this 
is what we talked about in our report, ``Who Congress Pays.'' 
Thinking about just living expenses, housing, I think $800 is 
actually pretty cheap in D.C. It is the 10th most expensive 
metropolitan area.
    But I think we can look at other programs, programs like 
the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation or the Congressional 
Hispanic Institute.
    So for their internship programs in the summer, which are 
about 6 to 8 weeks, they are paying a stipend of about $3,000 
to $3,500. They are also providing housing for free. So that 
would get you to the $5,000 mark. We are also thinking about 
transportation to and from D.C.
    And also we are thinking about socioeconomic status. When I 
first interned in Congress, I had to buy a whole bunch of suits 
because I had never worked in a professional workplace ever. So 
I think we also think about just the different costs that 
interns have to incur to do this work.
    One last point. Often, if they want to count this towards 
college, the college will charge them as college credit. So 
there is another cost upon doing this internship.
    Mr. Cleaver. We also had to--we operated a full-time 
school. And Congressman Davis may even know some of the costs. 
We had to run a school for the interns, I mean, like a full-
time school with credits and so forth. So the cost probably 
went up significantly. But they were not paid.
    One final question, Mr. Chairman, and that is, the interns 
stayed in the building. I know it was empty last year. And it 
would seem to me that if we are continuing to allow that 
building to just sit there, we are destroying the building by 
not using it.
    So whatever we recommend, I think it has to include that 
building, if for no other reason than being good stewards of 
the taxpayer's dollars.
    Thank you very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    I am not sure if anyone wants to respond to Mr. Cleaver's 
final point there.
    Mr. Vera. I was just going to say that we did a survey to 
interns asking what is the number one thing they care about. It 
wasn't even pay. Pay was second. It was housing. And I really 
think, to your point, if you are using that building, it could 
really be a game-changer, because too many people are taking 
out student loans to do public service internships, and that is 
just ridiculous.
    Mr. Cleaver. Yeah. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    Next up, Mr. Davis.
    Mr. Davis. Hey, thank you, Mr. Chair.
    And thank you, Mr. Perlmutter, for joining me in the 
Tieless Caucus today.
    Always great to see my good buddy Emanuel, too.
    Hey, look, what is great about this committee is we want to 
work together. And I think a lot of great recommendations.
    And I am so glad, Carlos, you mentioned we are actually 
moving in the right direction when it comes to Congress and 
internship opportunities. Up until a few years ago, and up 
until this committee started talking even further about 
congressional internships, you had to take paid interns out of 
your MRA and out of your head count that we are limited to.
    I mean, there are ideas that we ought to be able to put 
together to make sure that there could be D.C.-based interns, 
district-based interns. The cost of living, clearly, is much 
different in Washington, D.C., than it is in one of my district 
offices. And we have to also take that into consideration.
    But the elephant in the room right now that no one is 
talking about is, we could have all these great ideas about 
internships, we could have all this great knowledge that a lot 
of us have in being able to work at a younger age in and around 
Washington, D.C., getting that experience--with Derek, I don't 
know if you still smoke cigars after you learned from your 
former boss as an intern.
    But you know what? We don't have D.C. open right now. No 
intern in Washington, D.C., or in our district office is 
getting the same experience that every one of us and all of you 
are talking about right now. Not one.
    So we have got to also lead on this committee about getting 
our Congress reopened again. There is absolutely zero need to 
open a place of housing for interns right now when we don't 
even have Congress open again. We don't have them giving tours, 
we don't have them talking about what it is like to work in and 
around this institution, because they are not there, visitors 
aren't there.
    So we would like your help in actually working to make sure 
that we can get some of these plans put in place before interns 
come back onto campus so that we are ready to hit the ground 
running when they do. But unless the majority works with this 
committee, works with us to be able to find a plan to reopen 
the campus, we may be getting ahead of ourselves.
    And, frankly, I think a lot of the testimony reveals that 
the status that we are in right now is not helpful to getting 
those experiences that many need to be able to make this a 
career.
    Good news is, we have got a lot of opportunity here with 
student loan repayment programs that have actually kept people 
in Washington, D.C. I am open ears to suggestions about 
increases to head count, increases to off-MRA funds available 
for interns. But at the same time, we also can't price 
ourselves out of opportunities that would work in and around 
our district.
    I am interested to hear what any of the witnesses have to 
say about the current COVID status we are in in Washington 
right now and how that would impact any of your ideas.
    Ms. Henson. Congressman, I appreciate this question so 
much, because when I was speaking about the meaningfulness of 
internships, this is exactly why.
    Pre-COVID, as you know, you are a former staffer, interns 
were constituent facing. They were doing tours. They were 
answering phone calls. They were working in the front office.
    And while we are proud and happy to have helped 226 offices 
start virtual internships, and we do want to keep them because 
it keeps Congress accessible, we don't want that to be the 
status quo.
    Because what we are hearing from both these offices and 
these internships is it is not as meaningful. They are not 
learning as much. They are not able to interact with the 
Member. They are not able to interact with staff.
    And if we want to be able to make sure, again, that this 
internship has a lasting impact, that they are going to go back 
to their district, say great things about Congress, say great 
things about their time with you, then we need to get them here 
and show them how it operates.
    I think we can all agree there is an energy about Capitol 
Hill and about our unique perspective to all want to work 
together to change certain policy issues to help America, and 
we are not seeing that play out virtually.
    So I agree we need to find a way to open, to safely bring 
interns back, and to ensure that they are doing some sort of 
capstone program. So they need something they can walk away 
with.
    Maybe it is communications focused, where they get to draft 
a press release or a tweet. It could be policy focused, where 
they do a deep dive on an issue that is unique to your 
district. It could even be operations focused. We all know 
schedulers and chiefs make everything run on time.
    So we would encourage those two things. Reopen, do it in a 
safe way, but let's also make sure that we have some sort of 
capstone project the intern can walk away and use to get hired 
in the next job and say, ``This is what I did when I got to 
intern in Congress.''
    Mr. Davis. Mr. Chair, I think I am out of time. But I agree 
with everything you said. And I appreciate the witnesses. 
Thanks for the opportunity to be on.
    Lastly, I think it is imperative, too, that part of this 
process is we get back to our committees. And instead of doing 
these virtually, let's get back to doing face-to-face and 
giving people and future interns the opportunities they 
deserve.
    So I yield back no time that I have, Derek.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Davis.
    Next up, Mr. Phillips.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Timmons, and to our witnesses.
    I love this hearing because I am one of those who would 
never be a Member of Congress now if I wasn't an intern for 
Senator Patrick Leahy back in 1989, 30 years ago, which either 
makes him really old or me really young. So I am going to go 
with the latter today.
    But, actually, this is too important. There we go. Just in 
case anybody was going to do a little bit of due diligence on 
me.
    But a lot has changed since 1989 and a lot hasn't. Interns 
are still underpaid, underdeveloped. And while I think it is 
fair to say that they surely represent the geographic and 
political diversity of the country, they do not reflect the 
economic and racial diversity of the country.
    Mr. Vera, I would love to start with you, and two 
questions. How can we be more proactive and intentional about 
identifying and recruiting high-potential interns from around 
the country? And if you could answer that, along with a little 
bit more information about your House intern resource office? 
My colleagues and I are intrigued by that and would love to 
learn a little bit more.
    Mr. Vera. Thank you, Representative Phillips.
    Actually, we met with Chairman Leahy 2 years ago, and he 
has been paying interns, I think, since the 1970s. And over, I 
think, half of his staff currently started off as his interns, 
which I think says a lot about him.
    And then to your second point, a lot of it is kind of like 
what I said about reaching out to community colleges and 
minority-serving institutions and HBCUs in your district. There 
is also a society for Black political scientists association. 
There are all these organizations that you can really reach out 
to and they get excited about these opportunities.
    The problem we have right now is many offices are over--
there is a lot going on. Staff have a lot to do. And what 
happens is, you just put it on your website, maybe you send it 
to one or two colleges, and you have these schools, like Ivy 
Leagues and everything, they have the resources, and they make 
sure that their students apply, get their resume, and all that.
    Meanwhile, I spoke at an HBCU in Texas, and after I spoke 
to the students the director came up to me and he said, ``Do 
you want to know how many staff I have?'' I said, ``I don't 
know. Five or 10?'' He said, ``You are looking at him.'' He 
said, ``I have 9,000 students.''
    The majority are first generation, Pell Grant recipients. 
Their parents don't have those networks. And they are going to 
a school that can't give them the resources to compete with a 
Harvard or Stanford.
    So I really do think it is doing that intentional outreach 
to these specific schools and organizations.
    Mr. Phillips. Can you talk a little more about your House 
intern resource office?
    Mr. Vera. Yes. Apologies for that.
    So this idea has been going around for I think for a minute 
because I don't think it is all about, simply about money and, 
you know, resources. I really do think that, you know, it comes 
down to a lot of offices have a lot of questions about 
internships, and you can get really into like the minutia of 
it.
    And just having that, you know, small office, maybe two, 
three people that folks can reach out to, right? Because right 
now it is House Admin, and they themselves have a lot of work 
to do, you know. And I think that is part of the reason why 
there is a delay for this whole program, right? Like, the funds 
were supposed to be available January 2019. They weren't 
available until almost April of that year.
    So just having that office--I believe Rep. Tony Cardenas is 
the one that really is thinking about this. You have folks from 
Demand Progress that came up also with this idea. But I just 
think having that group, kind of like that diverse inclusion 
office, that could just be there to answer any questions.
    So one quick example: A lot of offices don't know that if 
you pay an intern at least $100 a month, they are considered an 
employee and can benefit from travel benefits. That is a game-
changer for a lot of people. So yeah.
    Mr. Phillips. I appreciate it. And by the way, I am going 
to have to go check my 1989 tax return and see if Senator Leahy 
paid me. If he did, it was about $3 a week. Nonetheless, thank 
you.
    Dr. Jones, I don't have much time left. Maybe quickly, if 
you could, talk about the idea a silver lining of COVID was our 
ability in my office to attract a lot more interns who never 
would have been able to come to Washington, surely, because of 
the remote and virtual context.
    Do you think that is something that we should be thinking 
about and institutionalizing as we move forward, to broaden our 
reach and for those who can't physically make it to Washington 
to include them as well?
    Mr. Jones. Yes. I mean, you know, as someone who has worked 
in Washington, I think there is something magic about being in 
the buildings. But I think we should work on a variety of ways 
of making Congress accessible, right?
    So, you know, I worked in my district office as well, and, 
you know, I learned firsthand what it means to do constituent 
services, right? I think there are some challenges to remote 
learning. And so I personally wouldn't recommend that in the 
long term without Congress doing the necessary work to make 
sure that these internships are of as high quality as they 
would get in person.
    And just if I could add one more thing, mention what Rep. 
Davis said about bringing people back to Capitol Hill, is that 
I think there is definitely a need about data transparency, as 
I was talking about, but also just measuring-if interns are 
satisfied with their internships, if they are learning.
    And this is not something that, you know, needs to be 
reported to the public, but this could be something that is 
held internal data with an intern office or with a diversity 
like inclusion office. And you could actually incentivize 
offices who perform really well on these indexes of, you know, 
providing a high quality internship.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you. I know I am out of time. I was 
going to ask Audrey about bipartisanship, but I am going to 
have to move on. Thanks, everybody.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.
    Unless any of my colleagues have any further questions for 
this first panel--I don't see anyone waving at me or proposing 
landing the plane--we will thank this panel of witnesses. Thank 
you all for sharing your time and your insights.
    And we will proceed to our second panel if we can get them 
elevated onto the zoom.
    So our first witness of our second panel is Emily 
Hashimoto, director of career content at Idealist.org. Ms. 
Hashimoto came to Idealist in 2012 with a background in 
political campaigns, fundraising, advocacy, and higher 
education. She oversees the way Idealist supports organizations 
and helps to create new tools that support the nonprofit sector 
as a whole.
    Ms. Hashimoto, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
share your testimony.

  STATEMENTS OF EMILY HASHIMOTO, DIRECTOR OF CAREER CONTENT, 
     IDEALIST; AMIKO MATSUMOTO, SENIOR EXECUTIVE COACH AND 
 FACILITATOR, THE PARTNERSHIP FOR PUBLIC SERVICE; AND RODERICK 
   ADAMS, U.S. AND MEXICO TALENT ACQUISITION AND ONBOARDING 
              LEADER, PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS (PWC)

                  STATEMENT OF EMILY HASHIMOTO

    Ms. Hashimoto. Thank you. Chair Kilmer, Vice Chair Timmons, 
and members of the Select Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to speak with you today.
    Again, my name is Emily Hashimoto, and I work at Idealist, 
a nonprofit organization founded in 1995 to inspire, connect, 
and support the social impact sector.
    Our primary platform, Idealist.org, hosts jobs, 
internships, and volunteer opportunities posted by over 100,000 
nonprofit organizations and government agencies. We serve over 
1 million members with a wide range of professional experience 
and interests. Our community is also racially diverse, with 20 
percent of users identifying as Asian, 20 percent identifying 
as Black, and 12 percent identifying as Hispanic.
    As the committee seeks to improve the quality of 
congressional internships, what I share today is the cumulative 
wisdom of over two decades of devoted concentration on 
attracting top talent, what makes work meaningful, and how to 
inspire others to do their absolute best.
    So our first recommendation is drafting a compelling 
internship listing. Finding great interns starts with a great 
listing. We recommend that hiring managers make explicit where 
the intern will physically do their work, whether it is in 
person, remote for now, permanently remote, and so forth. This 
is particularly important, of course, in this time of pandemic.
    We also recommend including a description of what interns 
can expect to get out of this educational experience, like 
participation in an important event or credit for contributing 
to a major project.
    We recommend only including role requirements in the 
listing. As you may know, potential candidates may take 
themselves out of the running, especially Black, indigenous, 
and other people of color, women and other traditionally 
marginalized groups, if they have, for example, everything a 
listing asks for except one thing that could be taught on the 
job. Candidate pools are typically larger, richer, and more 
diverse when using this tactic.
    And we also recommend requesting a sample task as a part of 
the application, like answering an email from a fictional 
constituent. This is a great tool in learning very quickly 
which candidates are the most qualified and engaged.
    Next, we recommend diversifying advertisement. To reach a 
larger audience and further diversify the candidate pool, we 
recommend sharing opportunities broadly and outside of 
traditional networks. So posting on our site, for example, at 
Idealist.org, or internships.com, or developing relationships 
with local colleges and universities.
    Next, and this is a big one, already been discussed: Pay 
interns for their work. Offering compensation enables interns 
to dedicate more time and focus to their internship as they are 
less likely to seek out additional part-time work to meet their 
financial needs. Compensating interns will bring offices more 
candidates of diverse backgrounds and may ultimately broaden 
the talent pipeline to the Hill.
    The practice of offering unpaid internships can unfairly 
advantage people who can afford to provide their time and labor 
for free, thereby providing less access to those who cannot. I 
offer my own story as someone who had three unpaid internships 
in college. I am grateful for those experiences, but I am 
deeply aware that the opportunities I was able to apply for and 
accept were only an option because my family could afford it. 
Not everyone is as fortunate.
    Finally, we recommend managing with intention. Since 
interns usually have a longer learning curve, due to less 
professional experience, managing them can be a tall order. 
Those managing interns may need more resources or strategies to 
fully support their new hires. Specific plans to try to ensure 
for a fruitful work experience for interns include 
collaborating with interns to set goals, offering support 
through weekly meetings, and sharing resources and examples of 
past projects, inviting interns to meetings with other staff or 
partners as well as to events and presentations, providing 
staff for interns to talk about their career goals and 
interests, and, finally, at the end of the internship 
conducting an exit interview to reflect on management practices 
and internship programming. Interns will feel heard, but more 
than that, offices will have a lot to gain from this vital 
feedback.
    While we have a lot to say on this topic, it is something 
we put into practice at Idealist, best exemplified by our 
director of career programming, Kevin Kennedy, who started off 
8 years ago as an intern. He says that his Idealist internship 
was the best one he ever had. It wasn't just about getting 
paid. Kevin felt supported by his manager. He felt like he was 
a part of the team, invited to lunches and meetings. He was 
offered exposure into the details and the inner workings of the 
program. He wasn't just the intern. He had real 
responsibilities and ownership over his work. All of this made 
him care deeply, and he wanted to be there every day, a choice 
he continues to make almost 9 years later.
    It behooves all of us who already work in social impact, 
who spend our workdays reaching for a better good to pave the 
way for others to join us, younger voices, traditionally 
marginalized voices, people who also want to build a better 
world but don't have the lived experience or connections that 
enable people like me and many of you here to move from 
fulfilling internships into careers that matter.
    Again, thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to 
answering any questions you might have.
    [The statement of Ms. Hashimoto follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Hashimoto.
    Our second witness is Amiko Matsumoto, senior executive 
coach and facilitator at the Partnership for Public Service, 
where she leads talent management and organizational culture 
efforts to ensure the Partnership continues to be a great place 
to work. She has run community service and service-learning 
programs in higher education, managed grants, led an agencywide 
strategic initiative as a Federal employee, and served on local 
and national boards.
    Ms. Matsumoto, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
share your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF AMIKO MATSUMOTO

    Ms. Matsumoto. Thank you. Chair Kilmer, Vice Chair Timmons, 
and members of the Select Committee on the Modernization of 
Congress, thank you for the opportunity to join you today and 
for your time and attention to make Congress work better.
    My name is Amiko Matsumoto, and I do oversee the internship 
program for the Partnership for Public Service. We are a 
nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to making the 
Federal Government more effective for the American people. I am 
pleased to highlight three elements of our intern program that 
help provide quality work experiences and growth for interns 
and benefit the Partnership as well.
    For context, we recruit interns through Handshake, which is 
an online platform designed to democratize opportunities, and 
other networks as well, including Idealist. As a result, we 
hire interns from a broad range of colleges and universities 
across the country.
    We have three cohorts of interns per year. A group of 
approximately 20 interns joins us each fall, spring, and summer 
for 3 to 4 months each. Our interns are typically college 
students, recent graduates or graduate students. We pay 
interns, and our hiring process includes steps for equity and 
inclusion to help ensure diverse hires.
    There are three aspects of our internship program that I 
would like to highlight today: our program structure, our work 
with supervisors, and ways we engage interns throughout our 
organization.
    First, we are intentional in how we structure our intern 
program. Prior to recruiting each cohort, each team identifies 
specific projects with which interns can assist. This allows us 
to build portfolios for interns and hire to meet our needs. It 
also gives each team the opportunity to reflect on best ways to 
engage the interns and ensure that their time will be well-
spent.
    We deliberately start the interns in each cohort at the 
same time. This enables us to realize efficiencies by grouping 
interns together for onboarding and professional development 
throughout their term. Additionally, this cohort model provides 
opportunities for interns to develop relationships with their 
peers.
    At the beginning of their term, each intern is assigned a 
supervisor in their home department as well as a buddy who is a 
staff member from a different part of the organization and 
outside the intern's reporting line.
    Additionally, we have three intern coordinators who share 
responsibility for program operations, including professional 
development, hiring, and serve as points of contact for the 
intern. The supervisors, buddies, coordinators, and staff, 
along with peers in their cohort, provide a robust support 
system that provides interns with multiple resources to help 
them navigate the organization.
    To ensure expectations are clear for both the intern and 
the Partnership, each intern develops a learning agreement with 
their supervisor that codifies the intern's work expectations 
and professional development interests. The supervisor meets 
regularly with the intern throughout the term to review work 
products and to discuss growth opportunities.
    We provide professional development throughout each intern 
term. This includes biweekly meetings that provide a space for 
interns to discuss challenges and present their work to others. 
They also receive training on a variety of skills needed in a 
professional setting, such as notetaking, Excel, and 
networking.
    The second topic I would like to discuss is the focus on 
our supervisors. We understand that supervisors need to be 
equipped to help interns navigate what may be their first 
professional experience, from managing time to creating a 
quality work product. We work with supervisors to ensure they 
have the communication and management skills necessary to 
engage interns in a meaningful way. We train supervisors to 
provide effective feedback that includes completing performance 
assessments.
    Our supervisors meet monthly with intern coordinators and 
HR staff to engage, exchange ideas, and receive program 
updates. By ensuring supervisors are well-equipped to provide 
interns with a quality experience, they develop leadership 
skills that far outlast any intern term.
    My third point focuses on integrating interns into the life 
of the organization. Though interns are with us just a short 
time, welcoming them as team members in our organization has 
many benefits. Each cohort meets with members of our C-suite, 
and we encourage supervisors to help their interns set up 
informational interviews with other staff.
    We encourage interns to take full advantage of activities 
and events for the Partnership community, to get a clear idea 
of our mission and gain perspective on the value of public 
service. Some examples of those activities include 
participation in service projects and brown bag lunches with 
our board members.
    We have redoubled our efforts to keep the community 
connected as we work remotely during COVID. We have scheduled 
virtual coffees as well as organization-led activities, like a 
virtual bingo and trivia competitions, to increase camaraderie. 
We actively solicit feedback from interns, including a midpoint 
check-in with the coordinators and HR staff, and an exit survey 
that provides data to drive decisionmaking as we prepare for 
the next cohort.
    By investing in our interns, we develop a talent pipeline 
that has resulted in several full-time hires. Roughly 10 
percent of our current staff started as Partnership interns, 
for example. When our interns are hired someplace other than 
the Partnership, we have created through them a cadre of 
ambassadors who understand the value of public service and can 
champion our work and are skilled to make a positive difference 
wherever they go.
    Thank you for your interest in improving the intern 
experience wherever that may be. I am happy to answer any 
questions you may have.
    [The statement of Ms. Matsumoto follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Matsumoto. I appreciate your 
testimony.
    And last but not least, we are joined by Rod Adams. Mr. 
Adams is PricewaterhouseCoopers U.S. and Mexico talent 
acquisition and onboarding leader and also serves as the co-
lead of PwC's Digital Accelerator Program. He is based in 
Chicago and has 25 years of professional experience, beginning 
in client service before transitioning to human capital.
    Mr. Adams leads a team that is responsible for hiring more 
than 15,000 full-time professionals and interns annually. He is 
focused on driving innovation through PwC's recruiting programs 
and delivering on PwC's commitment to future-proof the 
workforce through digital skills training.
    He spent the majority of his career with PwC in talent 
acquisition and sourcing and is focused on building a more 
diverse and inclusive workforce by leveraging digital tools and 
disruptive strategies to create authentic, long-lasting 
relationships with key talent.
    Mr. Adams, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF RODERICK ADAMS

    Mr. Adams. Thank you very much. And good afternoon, 
Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chairman Timmons, and the other members 
of this select committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify 
at the hearing today.
    I appreciate this committee's focus in this area of 
attracting interns as part of the Hill's long efforts to 
improve staff recruitment, retention, and diversity. I am 
honored to have the opportunity to share what we do at PwC, our 
holistic approach and our internship program.
    So, as I said, my name is Rod Adams. I am our U.S. and 
Mexico talent acquisition and onboarding leader. I have been 
with the firm for 25 years, started with PwC right out of 
college so I have been here my entire career.
    I have been largely focused on and have built expertise in 
designing and implementing human resource process and 
strategies across the candidate and employee lifecycle. PwC is 
a professional services firm which helps our clients solve 
problems across a variety of areas: management consulting, tech 
consulting, audit, tax, as well as other things.
    Throughout my career, I have been passionate about building 
a diverse and inclusive workforce. You know, at PwC, we 
strongly believe that inclusive teams composed of people with 
different cultural backgrounds, perspective, experiences, help 
us live our purpose. A diverse workforce allows us to solve 
important business problems and to build trust in society, and 
our commitment to recruiting diverse talent helps us achieve 
that goal.
    So, as was said, my team is responsible for hiring close to 
15,000 professionals and interns annually. Over the past few 
years, we have been transitioning to an increased virtual 
recruiting approach. Today all interviews are conducted 
virtually, the first round and second round, and we continue to 
host more events virtually.
    Obviously, some of this was a result of the realities that 
were presented to us by COVID-19, but we have been on this 
journey for multiple years. We started doing interviews 
virtually before the events of the last year and have been 
looking to augment, you know, what we do to digitally enable 
how we engage with candidates and have invested, you know, 
around the firm a significant amount of money in our digital 
and technology efforts.
    So, as it relates to hiring, of the 13,000, 15,000 we hire, 
approximately 5,000 are interns, and we do have three different 
types of interns for our candidates. So I will explain each one 
of those.
    The first we call it a Start Internship. It is for 
primarily rising juniors, individuals just finishing their 
sophomore year, and rising seniors. It is a summer internship 
focused on diversity. So it is diversity. It is uniquely 
designed for high-performing college students who have self-
identified as a member of traditionally underrepresented 
groups, individuals with disabilities, or veterans.
    So the students are selected for an internship, and they 
will during that internship learn about our professional 
services industry. We are really looking to get students 
interested in what we do.
    They will also have the opportunity to develop professional 
and technical skills as well that we believe are necessary for 
success in the business world: leveraging data analytic skills 
and things of that nature to solve important problems in a 
program that we call Skills for Society, which provides pro 
bono work for not-for-profit organizations.
    Last summer, we collaborated with FIRST Robotics to analyze 
their volunteer data and provide key insights. And that is what 
the 700 interns who participated in the project were able to 
do. So projects like those help fulfill our purpose but, more 
importantly or just as important, build the key skills in 
teaming, analytics, storytelling, and data visualization for 
those interns.
    Our second internship program, also for rising seniors but 
in addition to that students going into a 5-year program, as 
many of the accounting majors we hire get their master's in 
accountancy. So we call it the Advance Internship. It is our 
summer internship program, provides interns with the business 
foundational skills they need to develop, whether they choose 
to pursue a career at PwC or elsewhere.
    They have always been an essential part of developing our 
firm's long-term talent pipeline. So, as they do this 
internship, they are working on actual client engagements. And 
so they establish the foundation needed for a full-time job 
following graduation. So approximately 70 percent of our entry-
level associates that we hire come from our internship program, 
our Advance Internship program.
    And then the third is also very similar to the Advance 
Internship, but it is specifically for MBA students. They 
typically come with prior work experience, and, because of 
that, they are able to take on a higher level of responsibility 
than our undergrad interns. And most of our MBA interns are in 
our advisory consulting practice.
    So our interns join PwC. They participate in both in-person 
and virtual training. Right now, it is all virtual, but typical 
in-person and virtual training, designed to develop their 
leadership and technical skills. So out of the gate, all 
interns have a training program, regardless of what type of 
work they are doing with us.
    And then our Leadership Development Experience while they 
are with us, you know, aims to build leaders of the future 
through in-the-moment coaching. So they get a coach, real-time 
development. They also get what we call a relationship leader. 
And so as we think about it, just as athletes receive coaching 
and adjustments as they play, we want to do the same thing for 
our PwC professionals. So our interns experience that right out 
of the gate. They shadow partners and employees in addition to 
doing client assignments. So they are going to work directly 
with engagement teams, and they are able to experience PwC's 
commitment to our clients, gain valuable insights firsthand.
    And then to further build relationships across the PwC 
team, we provide a variety of networking opportunities. So 
whether that is a chance to do a community service project with 
other interns and staff, a chance to do a lunch and learn, just 
a ton of opportunities for the interns to, one, get together 
with one another and network and then also network with our 
professionals.
    So, you know, with that, our workforce and the makeup in 
the United States, as we all know, is changing. The skills 
needed are evolving. It is important, we believe it is 
important to design an internship to build on the skills that 
the students are developing in school, to really hone those 
skills and, you know, provide that real world element to it.
    So thank you for your time, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Adams follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thanks, Mr. Adams.
    We will head into member questions, and I will recognize 
myself for 5 minutes out of the gate.
    My first question, Ms. Hashimoto, does Idealist have a lot 
of government postings for internships, and have you seen any 
congressional office use your service?
    Maybe discuss how a congressional office like mine would 
use a jobs and internship posting board. What is the value 
proposition for a congressional office? How would it improve 
our applicant pool? How would it help us screen for high-
quality applicants?
    Ms. Hashimoto. Absolutely. Thank you for that question. 
That is a great one. For sure, I think that we definitely have 
a good number of opportunities working in the government at 
various levels. We have city parks departments on the site all 
the way--the State Department is also on Idealist posting 
opportunities. So it is a wide variety.
    And our community is definitely interested in social 
impact, and we have learned through the years that that really 
takes so many different forms. They would be interested in 
working for a corporation who is, you know, working in their 
corporate social responsibility department.
    So our folks, again, we surveyed them, have lots of 
anecdotal conversations, and they are sort of interested in, 
again, a wide range of opportunities. And I think sometimes it 
is about just not knowing.
    And so on our site in particular, there are lots of 
nonprofit opportunities, but, you know, for example, were 
Member offices to be posting, I have no doubt there would be 
interest there. I know some of the positions that come up often 
in your offices, for example, like a communications position or 
a chief of staff position, those are absolutely sort of common 
in the nonprofit sector.
    And I guess it sort of depends on the Member office to sort 
of say what skills they are looking for. And I would hope, you 
know, someone coming with varied experience in the nonprofit 
sector, in the for-profit sector, would be kind of a great 
addition to an office. I think they would probably be able to 
bring a lot of what they have learned and then sort of, you 
know, come in and bring something hopefully new and hopefully 
fresh.
    But absolutely. I think another thing too is just even that 
exposure in front of our community. So whether you are, you 
know, looking to attract candidates in D.C. or in your district 
office, I think it is just another great way to get in front of 
people.
    And we also offer volunteer opportunities as well. So that 
is sort of another thing. If there are opportunities with your 
offices, again, in either location, I think that is another way 
to get in front of a lot of people. Yeah, about a million or so 
a month.
    The Chairman. Let me ask Mr. Adams or Ms. Matsumoto, so, 
you know, our committee has an opportunity to make 
recommendations to make Congress work better.
    So give us a first step that Congress ought to take to 
ensure a high-quality intern program that actually creates 
educational value for its participants across every 
congressional office. What would you do? Is it training the 
intern managers? Is it creating a shared curriculum? Is it a 
resource office for interns? Is it something else? Give us some 
advice.
    Mr. Adams. Would you like me to go first----
    The Chairman. Sure, take a swing.
    Mr. Adams [continuing]. Amiko? Okay. Yeah, so a number of 
things that I would suggest in no particular order. I do think 
that 100 percent having a deliberate approach that is somewhat 
centralized is important. As I have been in my role, there was 
a time where we were very decentralized in our approach. So 
what we looked for, how we trained, you know, how we set up, 
you know, the connectivity around interns varied from group to 
group.
    And we made a conscious decision that we wanted to create a 
consistent experience. So starting with training, depending on 
what type of job they are coming in, regardless of where they 
are--obviously, we are a national firm--regardless of where 
they are, they are going through the exact same training at the 
exact same time at the beginning of their internship to 
position them to be able to do the work that we are asking them 
to do. So having that consistent training program I would 
recommend.
    Their support network is set up the exact same way. So they 
get a buddy. They get a coach. They get a relationship leader. 
And then they are kind of in a pod of six to eight interns 
within the team that they are working with with that coach 
relationship leader and buddy, and that is their support team 
for the full 8 weeks that they are with us over the summer. 
Those individuals are helping them from a learning perspective 
but just also helping them figure out how to navigate, you 
know, PwC and corporate America. So I do think that that is 
important.
    And then the last thing I will point out and I will turn it 
over is I know on the first panel there was a lot about paid 
internships. Our internships are paid and clearly support that, 
but there are benefits outside of a paid internship that really 
resonate that we see and hear from our interns.
    We have got, as an example, as a part of our training they 
have the opportunity to earn badges. So there is training that 
they can do where they can earn a digital visualization badge, 
for example. That goes with them, right. So they are now able 
to put that on Handshake or wherever it is where they are being 
recruited and show that they got a skill that they learned as 
part of their internship. That is a benefit that we have gotten 
a lot of traction from, as well as they are so focused on--and 
I know just by doing an internship with you, they are kind of 
demonstrating this, but they are so focused on giving back.
    So having opportunities during our internship where they 
can give back to the community and do it together--and it is a 
connectivity opportunity as well as an opportunity to have an 
impact socially--means a lot to them as well.
    The Chairman. Ms. Matsumoto, I may come back to you. I want 
to give my colleagues an opportunity to ask questions. And if 
you don't get a chance to weigh in on that, I may before we 
wrap ask you to answer it as well.
    Vice Chair Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    This has been really helpful. I want to start with Mr. 
Adams. Could you talk about the manner in which you track 
gender and racial makeup of your both different levels of 
people that actually work in your company versus interns, and 
in addition to that, what steps you take to make sure that it 
is an appropriate makeup, gender and racially, across the 
spectrum. Does that question make sense?
    Mr. Adams. I think so. I think so. So, you know, I will 
start with what steps we take to make sure it is an appropriate 
makeup. So, first of all, we look at, you know, the external 
data points, the pipeline, to say, okay, we have got certain 
skill sets we are hiring. What do graduation rates look like? 
Things of that nature, so that we kind of understand, you know, 
are we at parity with what exists in the marketplace or 
exceeding what exists in the marketplace? If not, what do we 
need to do differently?
    So it starts with attracting talent, right? And I have 
always been passionate about we have to get the right talent in 
the door, diverse talent in the door. So to me, that is a lot 
about, where are you going and how are you articulating your 
opportunities to individuals of different backgrounds?
    Because what interests, you know, one individual may not be 
what interests another. Like, we are not--we can't--we have got 
to be personalized in our recruitment approach. So, one, where 
are you going? We do have a long list of schools we actively 
recruit from. We have been deliberate to make sure that list is 
inclusive. We have got 35 historically Black colleges we 
recruit from as well as 41 Hispanic-serving institutions. We 
have been deliberate to make sure our list includes those 
schools.
    You know, regardless of the school we recruit from, even if 
it is not one of those institutions, engaging with the minority 
student organizations on campus to sell what we are looking for 
in our firm and the value we bring, the career opportunities, 
huge, huge part of our efforts.
    And then, as interns, when they come into the door, we 
recruit them, we get them in the door, you know, how are we 
connecting them to individuals that have similar backgrounds, 
interests, look like them, is all important. And we make 
everything available, and we let the students select what do I 
want to get engaged with? So do I want to get engaged with the 
network, you know, our Black networking circle, because that is 
important to me. We don't force it, but if it is something that 
is important to them, we make it available.
    And so once they get their--making sure they, again, have 
that network and support and they have an opportunity to engage 
and see people who look like them, have experiences like them, 
things of that nature.
    Mr. Timmons. That was really helpful. Thank you. So, after 
the internship going all the way up to senior leadership, are 
you taking steps to make sure that the proportionality is 
appropriate, or how does that work?
    Mr. Adams. Sorry, I put myself on mute. Yes, absolutely. 
Absolutely. So I will just give a couple examples. You know, we 
do believe that we need to be deliberate in that space as well.
    So, as new hires joined as associates, we have a 2-year, we 
call it an onboarding program. We like to name everything, so 
we have named this Thrive. And it is a program specifically 
meant for underrepresented minorities, to provide them, you 
know, the additional insights, support that they may be 
interested in or need as they are looking to progress.
    What we have found is the first 2 years in our organization 
matter so much. Getting off on the right foot, getting the 
right relationships, getting on the right clients, getting the 
right experiences matters so much. So we use that program just 
to have an extra layer of certainty that we are getting them 
those right experiences, getting connected with the right 
individuals.
    So, you know, as an example, that is one of the things that 
we do. But throughout--you know, so our progression is 
associate, senior associate, manager, director and then 
ultimately partner. That is kind of the levels within the firm.
    And each one of the levels that you progress up, there are 
different interventions that we have with those in the 
underrepresented minority groups to help shepherd them through 
that experience and continue to help them be successful and 
progress through the firm.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you for that. And I am out of time, but 
at the end, I am going to come back. And one of the concepts we 
had earlier in the last panel was that Congress should track 
all of its data for interns and beyond. We currently do not 
have any good tracking system. So I just wanted to hear any of 
your thoughts on that. I think that we probably should be 
tracking it.
    So I will yield back, but will circle up on that at the 
end. Thank you so much.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Vice Chair Timmons.
    Mr. Cleaver.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Vice Chairman.
    Look, I am going to ask you guys some pretty tough 
questions, candid. And I have thought about it, and I think, 
you know, I might as well do it so this can be beneficial.
    There is a lot being written about Congress and these times 
in which we live and so forth and function. Is Congress a place 
you think that still has an image glamorous enough to attract 
young, brilliant people to want to be in the mix on this Hill 
surrounded by fencing?
    Don't worry about hurting the feelings of the chair and the 
co-chair. Just say it out. I think it is important really 
because I think, you know, we are talking about trying to bring 
more, you know, young people in, interns, bright people. And, 
you know, when I saw the title of our hearing, I thought, you 
know, we need to really go down into the roots to find out, you 
know, just how attractive or unattractive we are.
    Ms. Hashimoto, anybody who wants to go first. I mean, don't 
be too eager to hurt our feelings.
    Ms. Hashimoto. No, I will take it, and I appreciate that 
question. And it is a great--actually, I thought that was going 
to be about the pandemic. I think perhaps it was a little bit, 
but not totally. And that is a sobering question, and I think 
it is a good one.
    My gut says yes. I mean, I don't know that I am 
representing every single, you know, every 1 million of our 
members, but I think when I think about people who want to make 
a difference and when I think about where they can do it, this 
is one of those places. This is literally that happening right 
now. You know, this is one more step in getting there. And I 
think yes.
    And I think talking about this current moment, it came up 
sort of in the first part of the panel, but I think thinking 
about what it means to be remote right now. And, again, if we 
are talking about safety of any sort, I think it is a great 
note to consider what it means to be remote.
    And I share the sentiments that I heard before. I think 
these learning experiences are much better in person, but I 
think where they can be accommodated I think it is incredible 
because, you know, we know what is going on, folks working 
remotely. It is bringing up accessibility issues. Where folks 
who maybe could not get to a physical office or could not work 
in that space, couldn't afford, you know, to get to D.C., all 
of a sudden, that is changing. And so I think this ability to 
have remote opportunities, where possible, as much as possible, 
I think can be really powerful.
    I do think it is hard, of course, and I think it takes a 
lot more--I think it takes a lot more process ahead of time and 
much more codified to get there, but I think that there are 
lots of different ways to do it. So I think, again, that can 
make these opportunities more accessible.
    And I hope that there is still glamour for people. I know 
young Emily, there sure was. I didn't actually intern on the 
Hill, but interning in D.C. was definitely a dream. So just to 
say I think for all the Emilies out there, I think there is 
probably still some shine if I had to guess.
    Mr. Cleaver. I am interested, Ms. Matsumoto.
    Ms. Matsumoto. Thank you. It is a great question, and I 
think it is something that is true for many of our 
institutions. There is kind of what we think of an institution 
or what we think of, in this case, a specific Member of 
Congress. I think there are a number of ways people want to 
make a difference. There are a number of ways people believe 
that change is possible, and they want to be a part of that 
change.
    So I think there is a sense of to what extent can, as you 
recruit, be intentional in helping people understand the 
difference that they can make individually and as part of this 
institution. I think there is genuine hope out there. And 
people have tremendous skills and talent, and they want to use 
that to drive change. And there are few places where people can 
make national-scale type of change, and Congress is one of 
them.
    So there may be some challenges certainly in the different 
types of perspectives that someone may have, but I think there 
is a genuine belief that this is a place to go if you want to 
be able to make a difference on such a grand scale. So I do 
think there are many people who still think this is something 
they want to do.
    And I think to the point of equity and other things that 
happened earlier, you spoke of earlier, there are a lot of 
people who do want to serve. And for them to be able to have a 
way to do that, be able to do so, financially to be able to do 
so because they can navigate the system and figure out how to 
apply, I think all those things certainly come into play. But I 
do believe--and I don't think it is just a hope--that people 
really do want to serve, and that that is something that has 
been true for generations and certainly true for the current 
one as well.
    Mr. Cleaver. I think my time is up, but I wanted to get to 
Mr. Adams at some point. I can talk to him maybe offline. Thank 
you very much. That is very helpful to me and not as painful as 
I thought, but I appreciate your candor.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    Mr. Phillips.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    The first question is for you, Mr. Adams. Intrigued by how 
you create different internship programs for different 
constituencies. I am curious about any key learnings that you 
might share with us about the--I can't remember the name, but 
for the underserved communities internship program you have.
    You referenced that 70 percent of your new associates come 
from the other program. Do some of those from the underserved 
program make it to associates? What have you learned? What are 
some of the challenges? What might we take from that 
experience?
    Mr. Adams. Yes. Thanks.
    The Chairman. I am sorry, Mr. Cleaver, you got to mute. 
There we go.
    Mr. Phillips. He didn't know his time was expired.
    Mr. Adams. The mute button gets someone on every call, 
right?
    So thank you for asking that question. So absolutely. Our 
internship programs are all built to kind of build on each 
other and ultimately end up at full time. So that program, the 
Start program for the underrepresented exists because we are 
looking to--at the heart of it, we want to get more students 
interested in what we do. So we built that program as a means 
to introduce them to the profession.
    So we are pretty open with the majors because, you know, 
they are young in their college careers at that point, that we 
look for, because we want--you know, we want to build interest 
in what we do, hopefully change people to choose computer 
science or accounting or one of the things that we are 
interested in or that we are hiring. So that is what it is all 
about. We look at it to be a feeder.
    So, to specifically answer your question, about 60 percent 
of the individuals that participate in our Start program end up 
staying with us for multiple summers and starting with us full 
time after they graduate. And so it is a very important program 
for us. We had 700 interns in it last year. We are going to 
have 1,000 this summer. And so that is the ultimate goal, for 
us to retain them and move them forward.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you.
    This next proposition is a little bit out of left field, 
but I would love your reaction.
    And, Ms. Matsumoto, maybe starting with you.
    But my office takes advantage of a lot of fellowship 
programs. Wounded Warriors and Rangel Fellowships. We have a 
Pearson Fellow soon to start. And they have been extraordinary 
blessings to me, to our team, and I think it goes both ways. It 
makes me wonder, though, why doesn't Congress have an 
opportunity for congressional staffers to have fellowships in 
the executive branch, work in an embassy for 6 months, work in 
one of the agencies, so that we can actually have some cross-
fertilization of those experiences too instead of just having 
talent from the administration or executive branch go back to 
the executive branch.
    Any thoughts on that, if you think it would be smart, if it 
could even work? I would love your thoughts on that, Ms. 
Matsumoto.
    Ms. Matsumoto. Thank you. It is a great question. I do 
think there are a lot of ways we benefit from talent exchanges 
and from being able to learn how different things work, being 
able to form relationships with folks in different parts of 
different organizations.
    So I think there are opportunities out there. I think there 
are examples. Perhaps not an exact one that you mentioned, but 
there are several different types of fellowship programs where 
there are talent exchanges. That occurs both public and private 
sector. I think it occurs in the public sector different ways. 
You have the IPA program. There are just so many different 
things that happen.
    So it is a great idea. I think it is something that we 
certainly would be happy to talk to you about further in ways 
that we could see that working or how that has transpired in 
other ways and we could take some of the best practices in 
other situations to bring it there. But the talent exchange 
concept is really important and one that allows for people to 
really develop better understanding and further skills as well.
    Mr. Phillips. Any other comments, Ms. Hashimoto or Mr. 
Adams?
    You know, Mr. Adams, just to go back to you quickly, back 
to the internship program that I referred to, I really want 
to--is there anything that you learned that surprised you or 
that PwC has been surprised by, in terms of relative to the 
recruitment, what the difference makers are between those that 
succeed and those that don't? Anything, any nuggets that you 
might share with us that have been either pleasant surprises or 
unanticipated challenges?
    Mr. Adams. Specifically the early internship program or 
just in general?
    Mr. Phillips. Yes, the early. My focus is to track more 
economic and racial diversity. We are fine with geography and 
politics. And I know how tough that is. You know, just the 
notion of coming to Washington, even if there is support and 
money and a place to live. But what do you see as kind of the 
deal-makers and the deal-breakers, in terms of the success?
    Mr. Adams. So, for us, I could give you my lens. Again, a 
lot of what we do is accounting. For us, awareness of what we 
do and why we do it, just like what the profession is.
    We have to spend a lot of time on the education early in 
college career. We start with minority offices on campus as 
early as freshmen to really introduce them to what we do 
because there is a lack of understanding and awareness. So that 
has been--you know, it is not a surprise anymore. It has been 
that way since I have been here, but it has been an obstacle 
that we have had to overcome.
    So getting to students early, selling them early on before 
they are locked in on a major on, you know, what it is that we 
do so they start to think about our profession, has been 
something we have had to put a lot of effort and energy in at a 
level and a level depth and deliberateness with 
underrepresented minorities that we don't have to do with the 
majority.
    We don't require that with the majority. There is just more 
of awareness of what we do. So that has probably been our 
biggest obstacle to overcome.
    Mr. Phillips. I appreciate it. My time has well expired.
    Thank you all very much. Great conversation and appreciate 
your insights. Thank you.
    The Chairman. I want to make sure that we give folks an 
opportunity if they have questions that weren't asked of this 
panel. I know, Mr. Timmons, Vice Chair Timmons, you had one. Go 
ahead.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. Currently, there is a lot of debate over 
what the actual data is. I mean, the best data that we have 
had, the methodology to obtain that data is painstakingly 
difficult, and it essentially involves interns using social 
media and/or Google to try to figure out the socioeconomic and/
or, you know, gender, race of a person.
    So I guess my question is, does anyone think that we 
shouldn't be tracking this stuff? Like, I don't understand. Let 
me start here: Do all of you track this as a part of due course 
of your businesses, and what are your thoughts on whether 
Congress should also track it?
    Anybody that wants to jump in, but I would like to hear 
from each of you briefly.
    Ms. Hashimoto. I will jump in briefly just to say at 
Idealist with our hiring, we are not tracking that information. 
We are tracking it other ways. And I will say we are slow to 
it. I think we have had some reticence--perhaps that is a 
shared thing--of feeling like we don't want to ask. We want to 
make it really candidate forward.
    But I think that this data matters. And so we are actually 
doing things. As we build products, we are asking for that 
information. Obviously, anonymized, private, you know, shipped 
to a different database. I mean, we are being really careful 
about our management of this data.
    But I will just say one thing that comes to mind. I think 
about the ways that some of our nonprofits are starting to 
track data with applicants. So that is when they track it. They 
track it right then. They take it. Again, it is anonymized.
    It is not connected to the candidate profile, but it is a 
way to get whatever you are looking for. So this way--and, of 
course, it is optional. I guess that is also important to say. 
But when you are asking for race and ethnicity, you are asking 
for gender, gender expression, you know, whatever sort of feels 
right. Veteran status, people with disabilities.
    So I think it can really be whatever it needs to be. And 
hopefully some of that data, again, not attached to the 
candidate, but hopefully even just having that in aggregate 
could probably be pretty powerful.
    Ms. Matsumoto. We do track applicant data as well. To Ms. 
Hashimoto's point, we don't connect that to a specific 
candidate. So hiring managers don't see that, for example. But 
from an HR perspective, we do have that.
    And we do look at our data over time to understand, you 
know, are people making it through the process? Are we losing 
certain demographics in certain ways, and what might be causing 
that and if that is the case? So we do look at data. It does 
help inform our process to make sure we are equitable. You 
know, are we thinking about inclusion in different ways? You 
know, it has been very helpful.
    It is a challenge, I think, to track data. Our software 
allows us from an applicant tracking system to be able to track 
that. It is not something that everybody may have, so it does 
certainly provide some challenges to somebody who doesn't have 
access to that. And we have been really intentional in how we 
use it, where we disclose it, how we use it to drive 
decisionmaking throughout.
    So it is something that I think is valuable, but I think 
there has got to be really clear understanding of how that data 
is used and, you know, to do something that can improve a 
process and not necessarily be tied to a specific candidate 
that might have an impact that way.
    Mr. Adams. I don't think I can say it any better than she 
just did. Our approach is exactly the same. We do have the 
data. We track it to improve decisionmaking, but it is not 
aligned to a candidate in any way, shape or form. It is 
totally--Emily said it--it is totally optional on whether, you 
know, an applicant decides to give it to us.
    But we do have the data, and it helps so we can look at it 
in the aggregate to help us make decisions on where, you know, 
we need to intervene, where we need to have training, and 
things of the like. So yeah.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you all.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. I would love to ask Ms. Matsumoto, you know, 
we have folks managing interns who were interns not too long 
ago, and a lot of folks in that role don't have management 
experience. So any advice as to what our committee could 
recommend with regard to training the trainers. What does the 
curriculum look like for managers of interns?
    Ms. Matsumoto. That is a great question, and it is 
something that we have thought a lot about. I am in a similar 
situation. Many of our entry level staff also supervise 
interns. It is a great opportunity for them to develop 
leadership skills and management skills, and I think there is 
additional focus on the fact that they are also learning and 
experiencing the workplace themselves.
    So we have done a couple different things to help train and 
equip our supervisors. We do have a session before they start, 
before the interns start where the supervisors will meet. They 
learn about things, some things kind of operational, how to 
approve timesheets and approve leave and things like that, but 
also things like how to provide productive feedback, how to 
effectively delegate.
    So we do gather them, have a chance for them to talk and 
learn with and from one another in advance. And then we have 
them meet kind of throughout the intern term to be able to 
discuss that with their peers, exchange ideas. Hey, I am having 
a hard time with my intern speaking up in meetings. You know, 
what else have people done to help encourage their intern to be 
more participatory? So those sorts of questions we can get at 
and provide a space for them to really explore. So that is 
something that we have done.
    We have, and a little bit to your question earlier as far 
as how to start this, we looked across the organization to find 
out what teams were doing and what was working well and how we 
could replicate that.
    So there were some things where we didn't have to 
completely start something all over again. It was, hey, this is 
working really well; how do we replicate that? How do we expand 
that so that other teams might have that same sort of 
opportunity?
    And that has been true for our supervisors as well. We do 
have folks who are happy to talk with them, help them 
troubleshoot or, you know, kind of explore different topics as 
they are kind of coming into their own in supervision.
    But we have been incredibly intentional to work with our 
supervisors so that they are prepared. It is something that it 
takes a little bit of time on the front end, but on the back 
end, there are all kinds of ways in which that pays off. So it 
is something that we certainly recommend.
    The Chairman. I am just looking to see if any of my 
colleagues have any further questions. Mr. Phillips, do you 
have anything? Okay.
    Well, I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony 
today. I also want to thank our very talented staff of this 
committee.
    This hearing was put together quickly, and it is a 
testament to their hard work that it went so smoothly, and we 
had so many talented witnesses.
    I would also like to thank Mr. Phillips for sharing his 
intern ID badge, which was certainly one of the highlights of 
my day. Just out of solidarity, I will share my internship 
photo from 1993. I am not sure what is more embarrassing, how 
large my trousers are in that photo or how large my hair is.
    But I want to thank all of you for your participation.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit additional written questions for the 
witnesses to the chair, which we will forward to the witnesses 
for their response. And I would certainly ask our witnesses to 
please respond as promptly as you are able.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for 
inclusion in the record.
    And, with that, we are adjourned. Thanks again, everybody.
    [Whereupon, at 3:52 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]