[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES
COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE RUSSIAN
FEDERATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE, ENERGY, THE
ENVIRONMENT AND CYBER
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MAY 11, 2022
__________
Serial No. 117-125
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
47-505PDF WASHINGTON : 2023
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman
BRAD SHERMAN, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
KAREN BASS, California SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts DARRELL ISSA, California
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
AMI BERA, California LEE ZELDIN, New York
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas ANN WAGNER, Missouri
DINA TITUS, Nevada BRIAN MAST, Florida
TED LIEU, California BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania KEN BUCK, Colorado
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota MARK GREEN, Tennessee
COLIN ALLRED, Texas ANDY BARR, Kentucky
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan GREG STEUBE, Florida
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey PETER MEIJER, Michigan
ANDY KIM, New Jersey NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
SARA JACOBS, California RONNY JACKSON, Texas
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina YOUNG KIM, California
JIM COSTA, California MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
JUAN VARGAS, California JOE WILSON, South Carolina
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on Europe, Energy,the Environment and Cyber
WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts, Chairman
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania BRIAN FITZPATRICK,
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia Pennsylvania,Ranking Member
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey ANN WAGNER, Missouri
THEODORE DEUTCH, Florida ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois,
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island BRIAN MAST, Florida
DINA TITUS, Nevada DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
JIM COSTA, California NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas PETER MEIJER, Michigan
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
Leah Nodvin, Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESSES
Carpenter, Ambassador Dr. Michael R., Permanent Representative of
the United States of America to the Organization for Security
and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Mission to the Organization for
Security and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Department of State... 8
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 30
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 31
Hearing Attendance............................................... 32
ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE
RUSSIAN FEDERATION
Wednesday, May 11, 2022
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the
Environment and Cyber,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.m., via
Webex, Hon. William Keating (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Chairman Keating. House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee will
come to order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
recess of the committee at any point and all members will have
5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and questions
for the record subject to the length limitations to the rules.
To insert something in the record please have your staff the
previously mentioned address or contact full committee staff.
Please keep your video function on at all times even when
you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible
for muting and un-muting themselves and please remember to mute
yourself after finished speaking.
The system with House Resolution 965 and the accompanying
regulation staff will only mute members and witnesses as
appropriate when they are not under recognition to eliminate
background noise.
I see we have a quorum present. Now recognize myself for an
opening statement pursuant to the notice.
We are holding a hearing today entitled, ``Justice and
Accountability for War Crimes Committed in Ukraine by the
Russian Federation.''
Good afternoon and I thank all of you for participating in
today's hearing. This is a timely and critical topic.
On March 16 just days after the Russian Federation invaded
Ukraine this subcommittee held a hearing dedicated to the early
signs of war crimes and human rights abuses committed in
Ukraine by the Russian military. Since that time the U.S. has
taken significant steps to support the people of Ukraine in
their fight for freedom while supporting the careful
preservation of evidence of war crimes that are committed by
the Russian Federation in Ukraine.
Today Putin's war on Ukraine rages on and the onslaught of
Russian aggression continues. More and more heartbreaking
stories emerge from the front lines. It has no been 76 days
since Russia's renewed invasion of Ukraine and the evidence of
war crimes is insurmountable.
As the Russian military retreated from the north of Kiev
horrific accounts of war crimes and human rights abuse
surfaced. Bucha, Borodianka, Irpin, Chernihiv, Sumy, Hostomel,
and Kharkiv. In such instances Reuters reported that the
residents of Staryi Bykiv watched and watched on as six of
their civilian male countrymen died needless at the hands of
the Russian troop.
Russian military is also using sexual assault as a weapon
of war. Many accusations of rape are streaming in all across
Ukraine. Women and children have been the main targets of
Russian sexual violence. In another instance the New York Times
reported that a mother in Kharkiv sheltering with her 5-year-
old daughter in school was forced into another room and
repeatedly raped at gunpoint.
As reports like this increase we cannot dismiss these as
isolated incidents. At what point do we turn these systematic?
Probably one of the worst stories yet is the deliberate
bombing of the Donetsk Academic Regional Drama Theater in
Mariupol that occurred on March 16. Reports from the Associated
Press estimated that 600 civilians died in that blast.
``Dity,'' the Ukrainian word for children was painted on the
ground in plain sight of satellite imagery. This was a signal
to any Russian reconnaissance that this is a civilian target,
yet still countless children died. We still do not know the
exact number, but the site is now a mass grave under Russian
occupation.
And the worst yet may be to come as the fighting
intensifies in the east and in the south. Russian military has
continued artillery rocket and missile bombardment of civilian
infrastructures and they disregard humanitarian excavation
routes killing unarmed passengers as they drive in their cars.
So far U.N. investigators have documented nearly 3,000 civilian
deaths in Ukraine.
My colleagues, based on the evidence collected so far I
believe the Russian Federation is undeniably committing crimes
against humanity that amount to genocide. I repeat, and I do
not take the term lightly, I believe that they--I believe that
we are seeing in Ukraine right now is a genocide committed by
the Russian Federation against the people of Ukraine. I will
leave it up to the lawyers to debate the exact abrogation of
this term, but to me Putin rhetoric and his blatant attempt to
ride this world--to rid this world of people and the culture of
Ukraine itself meets this definition.
It is now the job of the international community, including
Members of Congress and especially this subcommittee, to keep
the spotlight on these atrocities and to see--so that the U.S.
does everything in its power to help the Ukrainians seek
justice.
As chair of the subcommittee I was on the ground in Poland
just 2 weeks ago to hear firsthand the stories of Ukrainian
refugees who have fled westward. Some have trekked hundreds of
miles, never knowing if they will see their homes again or if
their homes are even going to be there when they go back to it.
I heard stories of family members including children
pleading with Russian soldiers to leave Mariupol only to be
rejected at the contact line. Their fate has been to wait out
the bombardment or get shipped to Russia and join reduction
camps. I returned from Poland, reconfirmed that the U.S. must
do everything in our power to ensure justice for the victims of
these war crimes committed in the Ukraine, yet this
determination of mine I think (inaudible) on a few points.
First, we live in an age where perpetrators cannot hide.
Between cell phone photos and videos captured in the
battlefields and postings on social media to satellite images
of Russian attacks the truth is still out there and we have to
just see it to watch it.
Second, we live in a period of great unity and solidarity
with Ukraine. This is exactly why our forbearers created the
United Nations, NATO, and other international institutions.
And finally, we have a collective conscience with shared
values. We know that the values that we share are being
violated. We know this war is wrong. We know these atrocities
are not isolated. The question is what will we do and how will
we live up to our commitments of never again?
With that being said, I look forward to the testimony we
are about to hear from our esteemed witness, Ambassador Michael
Carpenter. Dr. Carpenter has been a vocal critic of the Kremlin
and has persistently advocated for not only the Ukrainian
people, but for human rights in general. To bring war criminals
to justice the coalition of countries and international
organizations need to cooperate and relentlessly pursue these
cases. The ranking member and I have asked Ambassador Carpenter
to speak about the ways in which the OSCE can play an important
role in this effort.
Thank you very much, Ambassador, for being here today. I
look forward to hearing your perspectives on how the U.S. and
especially Congress can work in promoting awareness and gather
information from possible war crimes on Ukraine holding war
criminals accountable.
And I now turn to the ranking member, Mr. Fitzpatrick. I
thank him for his cooperation and support in this and his
commitment to Ukraine which goes back to his days before
Congress in the FBI. Thank you, ranking member. And I now yield
to you for your opening statement.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Chairman Keating. Thank you for
your partnership. This is something that our entire Congress
and our entire nation have rallied around, the cause of
supporting freedom and independence for the good people of
Ukraine and also fully pursuing the war crimes of Vladimir
Putin and his regime.
I want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing
today.
To the Ambassador, Ambassador Carpenter, for being here
with us.
As we all know, Russia invaded Ukraine back on February 24,
earlier this year. They have not stopped in their unjustified
war on the innocent people of Ukraine ever since. And as a
result more than 6 million Ukrainians have left the country.
Europe is facing the largest refugee crisis since World War II
and over a quarter of the population of Ukraine has been
displaced.
Just this morning news coverage estimated that another
10,000 people could die in Mariupol by the end of the year if
conditions did not improve. This is just a complete atrocity.
And it is no secret what Russia is capable of and how far they
are willing to go to achieve total control of the former Soviet
Bloc. It is also clear that Russia has committed war crimes in
Ukraine against Ukrainians.
As the chairman had pointed out, some of the examples
include intentionally killing civilians, overt acts of torture,
hostage taking, beheadings, intentionally targeting and
destroying civilian property. The list goes on and on. We have
seen Russian forces attack and fire upon a nuclear plant,
bombed civilian infrastructure buildings such as residential
homes and apartments, destroy and operating maternity ward with
infants inside, and target a pediatric cancer hospital. Does
not get any worse than this. And these are only a few of the
horrific acts that the Putin regime has carried out and it is
clear that they stop at nothing including killing innocent
children and women, including children with cancer in order to
continue his rampage on Ukraine.
The Russian Federation has a long history of committing war
crimes and it has never been held accountable, and that needs
to change. Moreover, this is no indication that Russia will
stop their attacks on Ukraine any time soon. How many times
will Russia have to be accused of committing war crimes for
them to be stopped. The people of Ukraine deserve justice and
the entire world is watching. And the time is now to hold
Russia accountable for the horrific acts of the people of
Ukraine.
And I look forward to continuing working with Chairman
Keating in a bipartisan manner, with you, Mr. Ambassador, and
with all people across the world, including everybody in this
Congress who wants to support freedom and democracy and human
rights, and all that is good in the world. The Ukrainians are
showing us their heart, but we need to back them up, not just
the United States, but the entire world. Anybody who supports
freedom and democracy over dictatorships needs to step up and
make the tough decisions to do what is right here.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, ranking member.
And I would like to introduce our witness today and thank
him for being here. It is critically important that we hear
from you and that you communicate in your role not only the way
you are to other countries, but to us as Members of Congress.
Yesterday I joined a group of members meeting with
President Biden for over 2 hours in the White House and we
talked about this hearing. We talked about the war crimes that
are being committed and his commitment to bring accountability
and justice wherever he can.
Ambassador, again thank you for being here.
Ambassador Michael R. Carpenter is a permanent
representative of the United States of America Mission, the
Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He is the
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia,
Ukraine, and Eurasia, and Conventional Arms Control at the
Pentagon, as well as a former White House Foreign Policy
Advisor to then-Vice President Biden, and Director for Russia
at the National Security Council.
I will now recognize Ambassador Carpenter for 5 minutes.
And we give great deal of flexibility. It is a virtual hearing
that is being taken place while some votes are being taken
place.
And I want to also say that without objection, your
prepared written statements will be made part of the record.
Ambassador Carpenter, you are now recognized for your
opening statement.
STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR MICHAEL R. CARPENTER, Ph D., PERMANENT
REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THE
ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE, U.S.
MISSION TO THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN
EUROPE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Chairman Keating, Ranking Member
Fitzpatrick, and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
I greatly appreciate this opportunity to appear before you
today to testify on the topic of accountability and justice for
Russia's atrocities including war crimes in Ukraine.
The OSCE has played a unique and important role in
documenting the horrific atrocities Russia has committed and
continues to commit in Ukraine. As some of my colleagues
testified last week in the Helsinki Commission's hearing on war
crimes in Ukraine, one of the OSCE's most powerful tools is its
ability to quickly establish and deploy a fact-finding mission,
even without the consensus of all the OSCE's participating
States.
On March 3, 45 OSCE participating States, a record
majority, that included the United States, invoked with
Ukraine's support what is informally known as the Moscow
Mechanism and in less than 2 weeks the mission was launched. It
was mandated to examine possible violations and abuses of human
rights and violations of international humanitarian law
including war crimes and crimes against humanity.
The mission's report released on April 13 covers the first
5 weeks of the war from February 24 to April 1 and documents
what might be called the Catalog of Inhumanity perpetrated by
Russia's forces in Ukraine including evidence of direct
targeting of civilians, attacks on medical facilities, rape,
executions, looting, and deportation of civilians to Russia.
The mission found clear patterns of international
humanitarian law violations by Russia's forces and noted that
it is not conceivable that so many civilians would have been
killed and injured and so many civilians objects would have
been damaged or destroyed if Russia had respected its
international humanitarian law obligations in terms of
distinction, proportionality, and precautions.
The report documents many particularly heinous attacks such
as the March 9 attack striking the Mariupol Maternity House and
Children's Hospital that the chairman referred to determining
that based upon Russia's own statements about the strike,
quote, ``The attack must have been deliberate,'' end quote. The
mission concluded that no effective warning was given and that
the strike constitutes a clear violation of international
humanitarian law and a war crime. While the Russian government
alleged the hospital was used for military purposes, the
mission categorically dismissed these claims.
Similarly the mission found that the March 16 attack on the
drama theater in Mariupol that killed approximately 600 people
was most likely an egregious violation of international
humanitarian law and that those who ordered or executed it
committed a war crime. The reporter powerful chronicles cases
of Russia's forces arresting civilians including journalists
without any procedure and ill-treating them by methods that
amount to torture.
It also cites evidence showing that Russia's forces engaged
in a, quote, ``widespread and systematic pattern,'' end quote,
of damage to Ukrainian health care facilities with attacks on
52 facilities just between February 24 and March 22 by
indiscriminate bombardment and in some cases intentional
targeting noting that these strikes too constitute war crimes.
Since the period covered in the report the scale of
atrocities committed by Russia's forces in Ukraine has
dramatically escalated. Russia has continued its campaign of
utter destruction in Mariupol and has launched a renewed
offensive in Ukraine's east and south. Tens of thousands of
civilians are feared dead in Russia's barbaric siege of
Mariupol. Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed
evidence of mass killings and widespread sexual violence
committed by members of Russia's forces again civilians.
Russia appears to be intensifying its ongoing forced
transfers and deportations of local populations from Mariupol
and other regions of Ukraine to Russia or Russia-controlled
parts of the Donbas through so-called filtration camps, a truly
abominable practice that hearkens back to an era we all thought
we would never see again.
Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed
evidence of mass killing and widespread sexual violence
committed by members of Russia's forces against Ukrainian
civilians and further credible reports are mounting that Russia
is further abducting, torturing, and/or murdering locally
elected leaders, journalists, and civil society activists, as
well as religious leaders in the areas under its control.
It is increasingly clear that Russia's war is an attempt to
suppress Ukrainian identity and culture. Moscow appears to be
planning to attempt to forcibly annex the so-called Donetsk and
Luhansk People's Republics in the coming weeks or months and is
considering a similar operation in the Kherson region.
In areas under its control Russia has forced schools to
switch to a Russian curriculum and has put the Russian ruble
into general use. It has also started changing the names of
towns and villages in areas it controls as well as changing
street signs from Ukrainian to Russian.
Russia's military campaign is underpinned by continuous
dehumanizing propaganda deployed on a repeat loop by Russian
government officials and State-run or State-controlled media
that deny Ukraine is historically or culturally distinct from
Russia and that it has a right to exist as a sovereign
independent nation State.
Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thanks to the
support of the United States and like-minded nations the OSCE's
highly regarded Office of Democratic Institutions and Human
Rights, ODIHR, is already on the ground in Ukraine and
neighboring countries researching and documenting the most
serious violations of human rights and international
humanitarian law to help ensure accountability.
We continue to explore ways we can leverage the OSCE to
support Ukraine and the Ukrainian people alongside other
international efforts to ensure accountability including
another potential invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We are
committed to using every available tool to ensure Russia is
held accountable for its monstrous atrocities.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to any questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Carpenter follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Keating. Thank you, Ambassador.
I may, just because of the format here--I notice on the
screen is--Representative Wild is here.
I do not know if you would like to given the roll calls
begin your questioning now. I will give you that opportunity
for 5 minutes.
Ms. Wild. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would be
delighted to do my questioning if that is what I was being
offered. Did I hear correctly?
Chairman Keating. Yes.
Ms. Wild. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
And thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for being here. This is a
matter of great importance to me, but also to my community in
Pennsylvania's 7th District where we have one of the largest
Ukrainian American populations here in the United States. And
so I feel very strongly, because many of them still have family
and friends in Ukraine, that it is my obligation on their
behalf to ask about the Administration's efforts to make sure
that Russian officials are going to held to some degree of
justice and accountability for the actions. And I can hear from
your opening statement that that is the full intent that you
have and that the Administration has, and I thank you for that.
Let me just start by asking how far is the Administration
prepared to go in supporting the efforts to hold Russia and
Russian officials accountable, including any proceedings in the
International Criminal Court despite the fact that we are not a
member?
And I will as you my second question just so you can answer
both at the same time. Does the Administration have a view on
the specific mechanism through which Putin and high-ranking
Russian officials could be held to account for these actions?
Thank you.
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Wild, for that--
for those two questions.
On the first we are determined to support all international
accountability mechanisms to include the International Criminal
Court. As my colleague Beth Van Schaack, Special Envoy Beth Van
Schaack has said before, we support an all-of-the-above
approach. So we are determined to use all of the multilateral
tools as well as frankly national jurisdictions to pursue
accountability. And as I am sure you are aware, the Ukrainian
prosecutor general is also working over time to ensure that she
is able to document cases of war crimes and possible crimes
against humanity in Ukraine. In fact, I believe she has brought
her first case just today against a captive Russian service
member.
But we are determined to use all of the tools available to
include the OSCE and its Moscow Mechanism, which we have
invoked once. And as I said, we are prepared to invoke it
again. We have the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, which has been
established but not--is not yet up and running. And so we hope
that that jurisdiction will have progress. The prosecutor of
the International Criminal Court has found that he is going to
pursue this line of inquiry into war crimes in Ukraine and we
will support that to the maximal extent we can.
Then on your second question regarding President Putin, it
is our belief that all Russians within the chain of command who
are guilty of war crimes should be accountable. And of course
this is a tricky question of how you get them into a
jurisdiction where they can face justice from a court of law,
as they must. It is not going to be easy, but we believe at the
end of the day that we have to insist that everyone at all
different levels of the chain of command is held accountable.
Ms. Wild. Well, thank you. Obviously I agree. And your
answer leads to this, which is would you agree that these
atrocities have reinforced the need for a more effective
international justice system that can hold powerful countries
accountable?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. I do agree. I
think we need a system that is flexible but that has the
authority to immediately pursue these sorts of cases when
evidence comes to light that there are war crimes or other
crimes against humanity, potentially genocide, and so on and so
forth. There are multiple overlapping jurisdictions. It is a
little bit messy, but we intend to work through all of those
accountable mechanisms as I just said including the ICC, but
also the ICJ, which is also looking into the question of
genocide in Ukraine. And we are going to continue to help these
institutions to compile the evidence, preserve the evidence,
and bring cases against individuals.
Ms. Wild. Thank you. I am hoping we will use this as a tool
for enhancing our international criminal justice system going
forward in the future. I have fears that Russians and the Putin
regime, in part because of Russia's robust global propaganda
machine, do not take these calls for accountability and justice
seriously or do not view them seriously. And I think it is
essential that we carry through with our word, that we take--
that we support all efforts to hold them accountable, and as I
said and have mentioned, using every possible tool to do so
because we cannot allow Putin and other superpowers to believe
that they are going to be free of eventual justice. So thank
you so much for this commitment.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
The chair now recognizes Representative Meijer for 5
minutes.
Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can you hear me?
OK. And I am grateful that we are having the chance to hold
this subcommittee hearing. I appreciate some of our earlier
work when we hosted Bellingcat and some of the other open
source observers who have been cataloging a lot of these
Russian atrocities.
I guess my first question for Ambassador Carpenter--when we
are looking at cataloging the war crimes, to my knowledge there
hasn't yet been the kind of smoking gun plan coming from on
high, from the Russian generals, from Vladimir Putin that says
we want to systematically and categorically kill off the
civilian population of Ukraine. We have obviously seen the
intercepted messages from more senior officers, more mid-
ranking members, and then also the awareness on behalf of some
of the lower junior officers and lower enlisted who are
perpetrating many of these crimes.
How are we looking at the question of intentionality, the
specific targeting as we saw in Mariupol where it could not
have been more clear that that was a facility with children
inside versus the just indiscriminate attacks, the lack of any
efforts made to reduce civilian casualties that has frankly
seemed to be the modus operandi of the Russian military?
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Meijer, for that
question. I think it is going to be--each case is going to be a
little bit different. I think we are going to have to rely on
both declassified intelligence as well as open sources
regarding culpability at both the unit or individual soldier
level and then all the way up to those as I said in the chain
of command who may have given orders that were to some degree
explicit about the perpetration of these crimes.
Now I am not a lawyer. I understand that the war crimes
themselves will be prosecuted based on an individual basis, so
individuals will be held to account in a court of law, but also
international human rights law can determine that if there is
in fact systematic patterns of abuse and systematic war crimes,
that those are crimes against humanity and that label gets
applied potentially to the Russian Federation as a State.
And so frankly, we are looking as we expand our efforts
possibly with a second invocation of this Moscow Mechanism and
working together with other accountability mechanisms
internationally at both of those angles and then genocide
relatedly. But that is the systematic nature. And it goes to
intentionality at the top and whether there was an expectation
that these crimes would be committed by units in Ukraine
especially after information has already come to light that
these sorts of crimes were being perpetrated.
And then to your point, I think it is a little bit more
difficult with some of the indiscriminate attacks, but cases
have been made in the past and can be made that lack of respect
for any proportionality with regards to targeting is in fact a
war crime.
Mr. Meijer. And I have actually mentioned that kind of
general labeling potential for Russia, the Russian Federation I
should say, that crimes against humanity. I know President
Biden has suggested labeling or designating Russia as a State
sponsor of terrorism.
Can you speak at all to how--what type of overlap that
would have with war crimes and kind of atrocity international
prosecution side, if those are two wholly different separate
channels? I am just curious. I feel like we haven't had
necessarily a robust discussion on that and in prior instances
we have looked at--and the Russian equivalent here would
probably be the Wagner Group--we have looked at sort of
mercenary forces or aligned but not necessarily in the full
military chain of command, the Quds force in Iran being
another--forces that we can designate as terrorist--foreign
terrorist organization. But I guess how are you seeing that
being weighed, FTO designations for constituent components
versus the Nation, Russian Federation itself being label a
State sponsor of terror?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for that question. So
my understanding is that the cases that are brought under the
war crimes mantra, or as crimes against humanity, those are
violations of international law, either of international
humanitarian law or international human rights law.
The designation of a State as a State sponsor of terrorism
is defined by U.S. statute and would be--so this would not be a
matter of international law; this would be a determination that
would have to be made by the State Department upon legal review
as to whether the definition, whether the bar that is defined
in that statute has been met.
Now my understanding on this State sponsor of terrorism
label is that the statute then requires that certain sanctions
be implemented as a result. And my understanding is that many
of those sanctions that would be triggered by this designation
are already in play. So in terms of practical consequences and
accountability I think a lot of those actions have already been
taken. There might be scope for doing a little bit more, but I
think most of those actions are already underway. So this would
be pursuant to domestic legislation as opposed to
international.
Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
And, Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. I yield back.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
The chair now recognizes Representative Phillips for 5
minutes.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Mr. Ambassador. Three quick questions for you
starting with how do you mechanically connect atrocities on the
ground in Ukraine back to the architects of that violence in
Moscow and ultimately potentially to President Putin himself?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, that is a very good question and a very
tricky one. It will be difficult I think to find because of the
insular nature of Kremlin decisionmaking and because of the
fact that the Kremlin also wants to keep those communications
secret. It is very difficult to trace back specific instances,
or will be difficult in the future to trace back to specific
instances on the ground, whether it is in Bucha or Borodianka,
or any of these other atrocities that we now see have come to
light back to a specific order given from the Kremlin.
But I think all leads will be pursued. There may be
commanders in the field who in the course of their
communication may reveal the level at which the order was given
or it may be subordinates who are talking about this. And then
we would have to infer how far up it goes. So it is going to be
a painstaking effort, I have to say. It is not going to be
easy. I do not want to give any impressions that this is going
to be simple.
But certainly I think those leads will be pursued and we
will--as I said earlier, we are going to use all available
tools, open-source and not open-source, to pursue the evidence
where it leads.
Mr. Phillips. OK. And relative to that work how
intentionally as--have the Russians tried to stymie the work of
the OSCE field missions themselves and hinder progress? Are
they calculated in that respect.
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, absolutely. Very calculated. So we saw
back when we had the Special Monitoring Mission active in
Ukraine, with its 600 or 700 members that was documenting
cease-fire violations and the presence of heavy weapons in
prescribed zones in Eastern Ukraine, that its freedom of
movement, which was stipulated both in the mandate of the
Special Monitoring Mission, which was agreed by Russia--but
then also in the three Minsk Agreements, the ones from
September 2014 and February 2015, specifically said that it
should be granted unfettered access, and yet we saw that
Russia's proxies, who were under the very clear command and
control of the Russian Federation, were blocking that mission
from having the access that it needed to be able to declare
that cease-fire violations were occurring in this or that area.
So we saw that repeatedly. And then we have seen it again.
In fact we see now detentions of national staff members of the
OSCE SMM by Russia's proxies in Eastern Ukraine, which is just
beyond the pale in terms of the fact that they signed up to
this mission. They were partly responsible for the fact that it
existed and it was deployed on the ground.
Mr. Phillips. Can you quantify how many detentions?
Mr. Carpenter. My understanding is four, but I may not have
the latest data because this is being worked in the OSCE
Secretariat. But there are--to my knowledge there have been
four cases of such detentions.
Mr. Phillips. OK. Last and most importantly, what can the
U.S. Congress do to support the OSCE investigations and the
field missions investigating war crimes? Is there anything
incrementally that you would like to see us provide or do?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think the OSCE currently has the
resources that it needs to pursue additional accountability
mechanisms using the Moscow Mechanism and also using--I should
have mentioned at the outset also using the Office of
Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which has a mandate--
it is one of the autonomous institutions within the OSCE and it
has a specific mandate to monitor human rights violations. Some
of its staff are already redeployed inside Ukraine and are
conducting monitoring. Others have deployed to the borders
between Ukraine and Poland, and Ukraine and Romania, and
Moldova and Slovakia, Hungary, to interview those refugees who
are fleeing Ukraine to gather evidence about systematic
patterns of human rights violations and war crimes inside
Ukraine.
So there may be a need for additional funding especially
for the ODIHR monitoring, which is ongoing. I think we, the
State Department, has the authorities and the funding streams
currently to be able to back those efforts. And we will, and
we--but we count on Congress as well to continue to support
vocally from your bully pulpit the use of these tools to hold
individuals accountable.
Mr. Phillips. OK. Well most importantly thank you for your
remarkable and important work.
And with that, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
The chair now recognizes Representative Wagner for 5
minutes.
Mrs. Wagner. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to thank Ambassador Carpenter also for his
service and certainly for his time today.
We know that Putin's soldiers are deliberately killing
civilians, preying upon the defenseless and vulnerable. Russian
war crimes are certainly a profound offense to all peaceful and
responsible nations and they must always be matched with severe
consequences.
Russia seeks to erase the bright line that must separate
combatants from civilians. It is reviving the abhorrent
practices and idealogies that were the hallmarks of
totalitarian dictatorships of the previous century, the
discriminate and wanton violence, terror, summary executions,
and mass killings. It has been decades since the world has seen
a country so shamelessly embrace a cult of death and violence.
This is a pivotal moment in history and swift decisive action
to punish Putin's war crimes is imperative.
Putin has proven himself to be the heir of the worst mass
murderers in history. He must be stopped and punished and the
United States must do what it can today to prepare for the
moment when Putin at last suffers the consequences of his
crimes.
Ambassador Carpenter, following Russia's initial invasion
of Ukraine in 2014 human rights groups reported evidence of
crimes against humanity including the summary execution of
soldiers and the murder of prisoners of war. How did the
Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE,
use its tools and mechanisms then to hold Russia accountable
for those prior crimes against humanity? And has the OSCE
incorporated any lessons learned to assure that its
accountability efforts are more effective in deterring human
rights violations?
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question.
So as I noted in the opening statement, the OSCE did invoke the
Moscow Mechanism to be able to look into egregious human rights
violations, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The period
from the initial report that was conducted and assembled by the
fact-finding mission was from February 21--February 24, excuse
me, the first day of the invasion and it went through to April
1.
Now as you will recall, Congresswoman, the evidence,
especially of the summary execution of civilians; not even
solders or POWs, but civilians----
Mrs. Wagner. Right.
Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. In Bucha, the folks who had
their hands tied behind their backs and were shot point blank
in the head, that evidence, or at least the video evidence came
to light in early April. So after the period where this fact-
finding team was mandated to look at these questions in
Ukraine.
So what we are now contemplating doing, and what I have
advocated and I mentioned again in the opening statement, is a
re-invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We can go back and look
at the same period, from February 24 until today, or until
whenever they choose based on their mandate, to look again at
these very same questions and to analyze the systematic pattern
of these violations in Bucha----
Mrs. Wagner. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Ambassador. I want
to get one more question in as I am running out of time.
We are seeing reports of Ukrainians, especially children,
being deported to Russia to be held in captivity and for the
purpose of perhaps reeducating them, we are told. Do you or the
OSCE have any more details on these Russian activities?
Mr. Carpenter. So I cannot say I have a whole lot of
detail. We have some eyewitness accounts and reports that we
have received including from Ukrainian government officials,
the mayor of Mariupol. I personally met with the mayor of
Melitopal who was abducted from his office in broad daylight.
In fact it was captured CCTV camera where they put a bag over
his head and they marched him down the street. He managed to
escape after I think it was 9 days, or almost 10 days in
captivity faced with mock executions almost every day. He could
hear screams of others in the detention facility who he
believed were being tortured.
And so yes, we do have reports that these so-called
filtration camps are operational in Southern and Eastern
Ukraine, that the Ukrainian population of these regions is
being forced through these camps. They are being interrogated.
Their cell phones are being confiscated. They are being forced
to give up their passwords. All these reports are coming in. It
is truly atrocious and if true, Congresswoman, it would--those
would be war crimes.
Mrs. Wagner. Oh, good. I hope we are documenting
everything. I have exhausted my time.
I appreciate the chair's indulgence and I yield back.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
Now I recognize the vice chair of the committee,
Representative Spanberger, for 5 minutes. As I vote, she will
also chair this hearing until I return.
So, Representative Spanberger?
Ms. Spanberger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. I really appreciate the
opportunity to speak with you today and have appreciated your
comments thus far with the questions posed by my colleagues.
So technology has always mattered in the prosecution of war
crimes. The Nazis who stood trial at Nuremberg were convicted
not only by war reporters' photographs and films, but also by
their on typewriters and mimeographs. Forensic science and
satellite imagery added to the prosecution of Rwandan and
Yugoslavian war criminals. But today we have user-generated
evidence uploaded to Twitter, Facebook, and other social media
platforms thousands of times a day in Ukraine alone.
So I would like for you to comment on how social media and
modern technology has changed the way that investigators
collect evidence for potential war crimes. How does social
media and modern technology ensure perpetrators cannot hide
evidence of their crimes reports? And I have got some followup
questions, but I would like to begin with that portion of your
answers.
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Spanberger. It is
a great question and obviously social media tools, but other
forms of technology including commercial satellite imagery have
been used to identify individuals based on their geo-location,
based on a variety of other factors that can corroborate that
they were in a specific place at a specific time when an
atrocity was being committed.
We have seen investigations by independent journalists on
the ground in places like Bucha, and Irpin, and Borodianka
already which have found documentation by those Russian units
who were there, that they were involved in these sorts of
atrocities. At the moment I think it is still limited in terms
of the number of individuals that have been pinpointed, but as
I mentioned earlier already the Ukrainian prosecutor general
has brought a case against one Russian service member who is in
captivity in Ukraine because they have found compelling
evidence that he committed war crimes. And I have no doubt that
there will be many more such cases that are brought through a
combination of social media evidence and other forms of
sophisticated use of technologies, information technologies
to----
Ms. Spanberger. OK.
Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. Both locate and then also
follow those leads.
Ms. Spanberger. So, Mr. Ambassador, a followup related to
that: So I think about how the U.S. can facilitate evidence
gathering activities on the ground and Ukraine's--in
cooperation with social media companies. One of my concerns or
my areas of interest is that settlements with the Federal Trade
Commission have required that certain social media companies
agree to permanently delete any content that they take down
from their site, but in many cases that content that may also
violate terms of service or act as harmful disinformation could
be evidence of war crimes.
So how can we when we are looking at how to balance
concerns over user privacy in a domestic context also balance
that with the pressing concerns that we want to ensure that we
are stopping the spread of disinformation, but that we are also
preserving evidence of war crimes? Are you concerned about the
issues of when they might have permanently delete information
what that might mean for evidence?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you. And I think this is a little
bit outside of my lane. And of course I appreciate your own
background and your understanding of these issues, which I
think is probably more sophisticated than my own. I do think
that there is a tradeoff there, but since we are talking
perpetrators who are not U.S. citizens, who are not subject to
the same constitutional protections that Americans would be,
there is a distinction to be made there. And perhaps that can
be leveraged in order to preserve some of this evidence, which
has been--it has been the pointy tip of the spear as far as
gathering evidence.
Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much. I could continue
asking my questions, but I must go vote. So I turn it back over
to Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Chairman Keating. Mr. Pfluger.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ambassador, we appreciate your time and the effort that you
are putting into this, and just a couple of questions: I think
with the information warfare and the use of digital
manipulation and the false flag operations we have seen can you
maybe transmit to us in the--I have got a couple other followup
questions, but what are your concerns on that kind of--that
side of--it is a little bit to Ms. Spanberger's question, but
the digital manipulation, or the covering up, or the just
overall issues with separating fact from fiction and the
discernment? How does that impact the investigators' ability to
do their job and to catalog what we know and are seeing as
fact?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for the question. So
as you know, representative, we have been very proactive in
getting information out into the public arena regarding what we
believe would be Russian potential false flag operations. And
this goes back to the period prior to February 24 when we
believed that Russia was going to stage some sort of false flag
operation to use it as a pretext for launching the war. At the
end of the day they did not have any justification whatsoever.
They just went in with all their forces from 1 day to the next.
However, Russian propaganda, including here at the OSCE but
also in other places, has been replete with instances of
Russians accusing Ukrainians of committing the crimes that we
know are being committed by Russian forces. I think the
evidentiary trail is very clear and leads back to those Russian
units, but in the information space of course we are going to
be dealing with a very robust stream of Russian propaganda day
in and day out making these false allegations.
Mr. Pfluger. Yes, so that kind of goes to the heart of what
I am trying to understand is during the course of this hearing
I have actually looked at pictures that are--have been taken
from a source that are firsthand pictures that depict an
atrocity that has already been discussed here. And we are
seeing that time and time again.
And I have got a followup question on that, but I guess my
question is how are we cataloging? Are you concerned about
preserving that evidence? And then are we able to get that out
into--obviously not the pictures themselves, but to quote/quote
``win the information campaign'' to make that the propaganda
from Russia does not overtake the actual evidentiary body that
there is possibly war crimes--I think what we can call war
crimes being committed?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so I think it is very important that we
have folks go in and on the ground are able to look at the
evidence and preserve the evidence because we have already seen
these reports that, for example in Mariupol Russia's deploying
mobile crematoria in order to be able to get rid of some of the
bodies of those who have suffered from Russian atrocities. And
so it is very, very important that the international community
writ large, both the OSCE, but also the other actors that I
mentioned: the ICC and the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, have
that access on the ground so that they can preserve the
evidence. Because often mixed in with that--with those mass
graves is evidence of who committed those crimes. And so it is
important to get there quickly.
Mr. Pfluger. Ambassador, my last question for you is
looking at past policy precedence for the U.S. has opposed the
ICC assertions of jurisdiction when it comes to the non-parties
to the Rome Statute. To what extent do you think this
Administration is actually going to pursue a war crimes trial
at the ICC?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you for the question. So the
United States is not a party to the Rome Statute obviously, as
you mentioned, but we will support the ICC and its prosecutor
in bringing cases against perpetrators of war crimes in
Ukraine. And we have said that publicly and we will continue to
do that both via the OSCE, but also via whatever resources we
have available. And we will have information of course that
other nations are not privy to that we will be able to share at
the end of the day with the ICC to enable to bring cases.
Mr. Pfluger. I have 40 seconds left. With the sources that
we have that are on the ground in Ukraine should we be--what do
we do with those assertions of war crimes? And the people that
we are talking to we know--where do I tell people to send that
evidence to and how do we facilitate that to continue to build
this case?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think it is going to be imperative
at some point that all the various accountability mechanisms
coordinate. There is already a lot of communication happening,
but there clearly needs to be a repository of evidence that is
located in one place. And there is any number of NGO's
operating in Ukraine, both Ukrainians, but also from other
nations, that are conducting very valuable work. But again, it
is important how they do it, what their methodology is, how
they preserve the evidence so that it withstands scrutiny in a
court of law when the actual case is brought. And so that
coordination is imperative. Some of it is already starting to
happen, but the United States actually--this Administration can
help promote that coordination among different international
accountability mechanisms. So thank you for the question.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Ambassador. My time is expired.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
The chair now recognizes Representative Cicilline for 5
minutes, who will chair the hearing also as I go to vote.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to
you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick for--sorry. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman and thank you to you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick
for holding this really important hearing.
Since February 24 and the start of Vladimir Putin's
grotesque war in Ukraine our committee has really snapped into
action advancing the cause of peaceful freedom for the people
of Ukraine and the consequences for Vladimir Putin and the
architects of his unjust invasion.
Let this hearing serve as a warning to the Putin regime we
will do all we can to hold you and your enablers responsible
for your crimes.
The images that have emerged from areas like Bucha and
Irpin have stirred the conscience of the world: men, women, and
children with their hands tied behind their backs and shot to
death; elderly Ukrainians who were executed while they searched
for food; civilians confined to frigid hiding places dead from
thirst; the partially burned bodies of women and girls who were
victims of depraved acts of sexual violence.
In pursuit of his terrible plan for the rebirth of a
Russian Empire, Vladimir Putin is presiding over a military
that is losing on the battlefield and instead hoping to achieve
his goals by unleashing horrors on civilians reminiscent of the
darkest day of World War II or the breakup of Yugoslavia. We
must ensure that Putin and his regime fails in that aim.
To that end I am currently working on a bicameral piece of
legislation with Senator Durbin, chairman of the Senate
Judiciary Committee, that would allow the United States to hold
perpetrators who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity
accountable in U.S. courts. This will ensure that the United
States does not become a safe haven for criminals who commit
atrocious human rights violations to live free of
accountability. In the defense of human rights war criminals
face justice and I pledge to continue leading on that effort.
And, Mr. Ambassador, I want to ask you first about that.
Currently the United States is limited in its jurisdiction to
try war criminals and perpetrators of other atrocities, meaning
that even if we have mountains of evidence that a war criminal
is residing in the United States, we may have no means to hold
that individual accountable in U.S. courts. Do you think the
United States should expand our jurisdiction to try war
criminals on U.S. soil?
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, representative. So there are a
number of OSCE participating States that I work with on a
regular basis whose courts have invoked universal jurisdiction
in the past and whose representatives have signaled that they
intend to do so in the future, specifically with regards to the
allegations of war crimes committed by Russian forces in
Ukraine. So this is an avenue that is being pursued by some of
our allies and partners and I have no doubt that a number of
these States, which have very sophisticated investigation and
judicial institutions, will succeed in this effort.
I do not know how many of the perpetrators of these crimes
are going to be traveling into these various jurisdictions, so
how many will actually be apprehended and therefore subject to
these courts of law, but this is certainly something that a lot
of countries at the OSCE table are looking at.
Mr. Cicilline. Great. And, Mr. Ambassador, as you suggested
collecting and storing and assessing evidence of war crimes
committed by the Russian Federation, Ukraine is obviously
critical to any future pursuit of accountability and justice.
So what country will have access to any evidence that has been
obtained and stored by OSCE and how can we facilitate greater
cooperation around access to crucial data? What are things that
we can be doing?
Mr. Carpenter. So with regards to the first invocation of
the Moscow Mechanism, the fact-finding mission that produced
that first report, they have clearly Stated; and it is in
writing in the report, that they intend to share their evidence
that they have collected with any respected international--
basically with any international accountability mechanism.
If there is a path that they see that will bring
individuals to justice, they are prepared to share the
information that they have collected. In fact, much of it is
already public in the report, but they have committed to doing
so. And I imagine that if there is a second invocation
similarly it will make that evidence available to whoever is
able to do justice for these crimes, for the victims.
And then finally, the same is true of the Office of
Democratic Institutions and Human Rights which will make that
evidence all publicly available. I have heard that it is going
to be digitized and therefore searchable by others, and I hope
that is the case.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
I see that the chairman is back, and so I will yield back
to Mr. Keating.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
I now recognize for 5 minutes Representative Meuser.
Mr. Meuser. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you very much, Ambassador. So I think it is--I
think all of us on this committee, most of the world see Putin
as a war criminal. So I will start my questioning with this,
Ambassador: What would be the--and pardon me if it has already
been discussed, but has Putin been notified or his staff
notified at this point that he has engaged in war crimes?
Mr. Carpenter. So, representative, I think one of the big
questions that we have is how much information is actually
getting to Mr. Putin. I think there is a lot of questions about
whether he is fully understanding how--not only how his troops
have failed in the field; for example in the northern suburbs
of Kiev, but also the degree to which they are perpetrating
atrocities. I think that is an open question.
However, there is very clear evidence in the simple fact
that President Putin has bestowed one of the highest honors
that can be bestowed on a Russian unit; the honor is called the
Status of Guards, on the specific unit that we believe was
involved, or at least some of whose members were involved in
the atrocities in Bucha. And so the fact that so soon--as we
are still in the midst of this conflict, so soon after the
perpetration of those atrocities that this particular unit
would be singled out by the Kremlin with this reward suggests
that there is some knowledge and in fact tacit public
acknowledgement of what they are doing.
Mr. Meuser. OK. So you currently continue to build
evidence. And are we providing that evidence to those who will
engage in the procedures of criminalizing Putin's actions?
Mr. Carpenter. So as I Stated earlier, Congressman, the
accountability that has been pursued via the OSCE through the
Moscow Mechanism, that information will be available to all
international accountability mechanisms including the ICC that
intend to bring cases. And both the experts who fielded that
fact-finding mission, but also the participating States who
invoked it; and there were 45 of us, so 44 others, plus the
United States, have all said that every individual at every
level of the chain of command must be held accountable. And so
there is broad unanimity that that is the way forward.
Mr. Meuser. What is China's--representatives of the CCP,
the People's Republic of China--what has been their position? I
know they apparently are favorable or at least neutral on this
invasion and on Putin, but is there any information that you
are receiving that they also appreciate and understand that he
is committing war crimes?
Mr. Carpenter. So the PRC is not a member or a partner of
the OSCE. We have 56 other participating States and 10 partners
including Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Afghanistan,
and the Indo-Pacific, but not the PRC. But to my knowledge they
have not acknowledged the commission of war crimes by Russian
forces in Ukraine.
Mr. Meuser. OK. There have been 46 indicted--war criminals
indicted by the International Criminal Court. The last was
Mahamat Said Abdel Kani, a militia commander from the Central
African Republic. Would the process for criminalizing that
individual be the same as you are going to proceed for Vladimir
Putin? Is it a similar model?
Mr. Carpenter. So that is a little bit outside my lane
because that pertains to the ICC, but my understanding is that
the general process of holding individuals accountable for
violations of international humanitarian law and international
human rights law would be analogous to previous cases that have
been brought.
Mr. Meuser. Who would have the opportunity to arrest, if
you will, Vladimir Putin?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, that is obviously a very, very tricky
question. I think it is hard to envisage that President Putin
would travel outside of the Russian Federation to a
jurisdiction where national authorities would choose to
exercise an arrest warrant, especially so long as he is head of
State. So it is a conundrum, frankly. But if one looks at the
long term, there are plenty of examples of former leaders who
have been held accountable at the end of the day, usually after
they have fallen from power, for their crimes.
Mr. Meuser. All right. Thank you.
I yield back, chairman.
Chairman Keating. Thank you very much.
The chair now recognizes Representative Schneider for 5
minutes.
Mr. Schneider. I was having difficulties.
Ambassador, can you hear me now?
Mr. Carpenter. I can hear you, yes.
Mr. Schneider. OK. I apologize for not being on
microphones. Anyway, I want to thank you for all of your work,
but in particular for sharing your work with the committee
today.
And I want to thank the chairman for organizing this
critically important hearing.
One of the things is you mentioned in the report that it
covered the first 5 weeks of the war. The war has obviously
been going on much longer and is likely to continue for a
extended period of time. And you indicated that the pattern of
abuse has continued, the pattern of apparent war crimes. Has
that continued at the same pace as what you were seeing in the
first 5 weeks or do you think it has expanded dramatically and
that the pace, scope, breadth, and depth of war crimes is
increasing?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you for the question. It is hard
to say because my information is obviously limited, but we
obviously saw those dramatic and horrifying images from the
northern suburbs of Kiev where Russian forces retreated and as
soon as the Ukrainians had access to that land, they found all
the bodies in the mass graves that indicated that war crimes
had been committed.
My understanding based on the utter devastation that has
been affected upon the city of Mariupol, which was a city with
a population of some roughly 430,000 people prior to the war,
and the fact that over 90 percent of the buildings there are
destroyed in some way, that the atrocities that are likely to
be discovered once the international community or once Ukraine
gets access to that city and to that territory are likely to be
horrendous and just the scale will be immense. So if anything,
I suspect there may have been an acceleration of these forms of
atrocities.
Mr. Schneider. Yes, I think that is the concern of the
world. And one of the things--my concern is that the news--
Ukraine has dominated the news for an extended period now, but
other things happen around the world. What can OSCE, the United
States do to help steel the resolve of the international
community to make sure as you are collecting this data and
evidence of war crimes that we are going to signal to the
Russians that they are not going to outlast us and we will hold
them to account, not just for actions for the first 5 weeks, or
for 3 months, or the war, but throughout their campaign?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so thank you so much for that question
because that is what we are trying to do every week here at the
OSCE. We have the Permanent Council, which is the equivalent of
the U.N. Security Council for the OSCE where all 57
participating States sit at the table. And each and every week
I specifically talk about Russian atrocities in Ukraine and I
try to bring them to light and I try to also impress upon my
counterparts around the table the extent to which we are
witnessing something that we have--the scale and scope of which
and the barbarity of which we have not seen since really the
Second World War, although to a certain extent we saw some of
this in the 1990's in the Former Yugoslavia or in Rwanda. And
my colleagues, especially from our allies and like-minded
partners, are making the same case each and every week.
So the Russian representative, the Russian ambassador is
hearing this every week. And he is isolated with the one
exception of Belarus. Russia and Belarus are completely
isolated at the OSCE because all other States--some are silent
and do not speak, but all those who do speak condemn these
atrocities in no uncertain terms and demand accountability.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you. I think it is important that we
continue to condemn these atrocities and hold all of our allies
strongly together on this.
It is not just the violent crimes we are seeing like in
Mariupol and other places. Russia is weaponizing its energy
supplies and threatening Europe. I had a meeting yesterday with
the Prime Minister of Bulgaria, one of the countries where
Russia has specifically targeted.
My question, specific to Bulgaria, but also more broadly,
is what can the OSCE do to help dampen the threat and diminish
the challenge to member States from Russia's illegal use of
food and oil, but in particular oil and gas, as a weapon?
Mr. Carpenter. Thank you for the question. So of course
Russia has used energy as a tool of political coercion for
decades, using its--the power of its pipelines and the fact
that so many countries in particularly Eastern Europe, but some
in the Balkans and Western Europe, are dependent to a large
degree on Russian hydrocarbons.
While this is within the OSCE mandate, the OSCE is probably
not the lead organization that is looking at this issue. But I
can say as a representative of the United States that--I mean
this is something that we have been talking to our partners and
allies about for a long time. And where we have supported the
construction of the infrastructure in Europe to include, for
example floating LNG terminals, inter-connector pipelines
particularly on the north-south axis, that would enable reverse
flows and enable some of the countries that are so dependent,
sometimes 80, 90, even 100 percent dependent on Russian gas to
wean themselves off of that dependency and to use other sources
and other transport routes.
And so our Energy Bureau at the State Department has been
heavily involved with this and will continue to be because now
is the moment where I think some of those allies that perhaps
knew this was a problem--now it is really hitting home that
this is existential.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you. And I am not sure how much time I
have left, but I would like to yield what time I do have to
spare to my colleague Abigail Spanberger from Virginia.
Chairman Keating. The chair recognizes Representative
Spanberger, and she will now chair just until I commit the--
finish this vote and come back.
Ms. Spanberger. Thank you so much. And again, Mr.
Ambassador, thank you for your patience as we continue to make
sure that we are getting all of our votes in in this 23-vote
series while also ensuring that we can ask many questions given
your expertise.
So I want to do a little bit more followup on a line of
questioning that I was going down before related to social
media companies, related to the challenges that we face in
terms of when they are pulling down disinformation and what
might potentially be evidence of war crimes.
Some of my colleagues--and certainly in the first round of
questions we have talked about how there are some pros and cons
obviously to modern technology, and social media more
specifically when it comes to documenting war crimes. And when
we look at Russia, we have really seen a professionalization of
disinformation, false narratives, certainly we saw that the
U.S. intelligence community had released information before
Russia even invaded to speak to the fact that there was an
intent to potentially release a doctored video that could be
cause or an excuse for an alternate Russian invasion.
And so when we are looking at how the Russians in
particular obscure truth, misdirects global attention, and of
course engage in strong disinformation campaigns, even here,
where do you think that social media companies might have a
role in again going back to sort of preserving the evidentiary
record of war crimes, but of disinformation campaigns that
frankly could lead us on a path toward war crimes, or the
responsibilities that they might have to remove or curate
misinformation and help their users separate actual truth from
clear lies? And I am thinking about this in the context of
course as Congress continues to determine what we potentially
could be doing long term. Your comments on this, sir, would be
great.
Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. So with
regards to the role of social media companies in curating, as
you noted, misinformation, that's probability a little bit
outside my lane, but what I will say is that a lot of these
social media companies have the big data analytics to be able
to do investigations and pull the threads on some of the
evidence that may be coming out of Ukraine by individuals from
Russia or potentially elsewhere, mercenaries on the ground to
be able to help identify and then also implicate others.
And so they have unique capabilities in this regard
probably matched only by the U.S. Government and a few other
States, but they can certainly support efforts to identify
individuals involved in potential war crimes. And we have seen
NGO's with remarkable capabilities. I am thinking of
Bellingcat, but there are others: the Atlantic Council's
Digital Research Lab, amongst others, that have really done
phenomenal work in pulling the thread on some of these obscure
social media posts that then have revealed quite a lot about
what is happening on the ground.
Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
And while I could continue asking you questions all
afternoon, I am going to yield back to the chairman and go vote
and return. Thank you.
Chairman Keating. Thank you, vice chairman.
And I just want to let the Ambassador know (inaudible)
effort of so many members and the interest in this today given
the unexpected volume of folks in the middle of this hearing.
Now I will just recognize myself for a few questions as well.
You mentioned the systematic nature of things in terms of
these atrocities and how that can be termed and categorized as
crimes versus humanity. And you mentioned that it could be--
then if it qualifies for that, the Russian Federation itself
can be held accountable. Can you describe how that process
works and what are the repercussions of the Russian Federation
being held accountable in that process?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman, for the question.
Crimes against humanity is one of those terms that is so
evocative because of recent history of the past century. And so
when a finding is made by a credible international institution,
an impartial international institution that crimes against
humanity were committed, I think that strongly aids the efforts
to find individuals accountable for violations of the Geneva
Conventions or other war crimes because it tarnishes the
reputation of the State essentially forever. I mean, States
change and government come and go, but that is such a powerful
tool that I think we should not discount it.
Of course Russia is a large country with a large military,
but nevertheless having that designation would be a very
powerful signal, and especially to those countries on Russia's
periphery, some of whom are afraid of what the Kremlin might do
next and therefore reluctant to speak out, but also countries
elsewhere around the world, some of which are U.S. partners who
are reluctant to speak out against what Russia is doing. But if
we had that designation that crimes against humanity had been
perpetrated, I think that would be very powerful in terms of
rallying our international allies and partners together.
Chairman Keating. And you also mentioned, too, in your
testimony how different leaders--these are civic leaders,
mayors, activists at the local level, and religious leaders you
mentioned, too, and we noticed the support for this war on
behalf of the Russian Orthodox leader himself.
So could you tell us, if you could, what religious leaders
have been targeted for these atrocities as well or put into
filtration camps or faced any other kind of Russian action?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman. So in the city of
Kharkiv, which is one of the largest Russian-speaking cities in
the world, which has suffered so much from Russian aerial and
missile bombardment over the course of the last 10 weeks, we
have seen that the--one of the major Orthodox churches there
has been hit with a strike. I believe the synagogue, or it may
be more than one, has been targeted with a strike. And the
mosque in that city has also been targeted with a strike.
So again, Russia is--the scale of the devastation is such
that is affecting many different faith communities across
Ukraine, which of course is a very diverse and multiethnic
society. But we have also received reports that some priests,
including Orthodox priests, are indeed subject to these
filtration camps. Again, there we have less information, but I
think as more comes to light we will learn that many indeed
religious figures have been detained by Russian forces in
Ukraine.
Chairman Keating. And given some of the rhetoric that has
come out of the Russian Federation in terms of the
justification for the war and some of the religious tenets that
some of the Russian Orthodox leaders have done in terms of
attacking the LGBTQ community, have you found any evidence to
date that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by the Russians
with some of these atrocities or if they are placing them in
detention or filtration camps?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, we did have information prior to
February 24 and we assessed that the LGBTQ community would be
potentially targeted by Russian forces following an invasion.
Now the members of the community are not always very visible
for obvious reasons. They are worried about their safety. And
so we have limited information. But unfortunately we do have
some reports that some of the sexually based violence which has
been perpetrated against both women and men has also been
perpetrated against members of that community.
Chairman Keating. And does that include boys and children
as well? That is my understanding.
Mr. Carpenter. Indeed, yes, there are reports.
Chairman Keating. Just looking at a parallel for Russian
activity, too, I believe you are aware of their actions in
Syria where they targeted health care facilities and did these
civilian targets, but I recall in Syria just the targeting of
hospitals and medical facilities, how significant that was and
extensive. Can you comment on the parallels that might be there
in Ukraine as well?
Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, of course it is very difficult
to prove at this stage of the war that certain facilities were
deliberately targeted. Nevertheless, despite the high bar for
making that determination the Moscow Mechanism report that I
referenced in my introductory statement did find that that
Mariupol Children's and Maternity Hospital was in fact
deliberately targeted by Russian forces.
And in the days following the strike Foreign Minister
Lavrov of Russia said that it was a legitimate target because
he believed that there were--I forget if he used the term Neo-
Nazis or Nationalists because Russian officials use those terms
interchangeably, but that they were hiding supposedly,
allegedly in the basement of that hospital. And subsequent to
that of course; and the OSCE experts determined this, there is
absolutely no credibility to that claim whatsoever. There were
indeed women and children in that hospitals, hundreds of them,
who suffered horribly as a result of that strike.
Chairman Keating. And also I think to help summarize some
of this, the strategic failure of the Russians and the
frustration, although we did see these war crimes at the outset
of this, but are they indicative and can you comment on really
the strategic failure thus far of this Russian effort?
Mr. Carpenter. Yes. So it appears that, from the planning
at least, that the Russian forces were intent on a shock and
awe campaign that would have decapitated the Ukrainian
government in Kiev in short order, in a matter perhaps even of
days and that they were so confident that they would be greeted
by some of the local residents across Ukraine when they marched
in that their planning in terms of, for example the amounts of
food that they brought with them was wholly insufficient for
the operation. Of course they failed. They lost the battle of
Kiev. The Ukrainians won. They pushed them back across the
border.
But the Russians have a numeric superiority over the
Ukrainian army, both in terms of troops, but also in terms of
tanks, in terms of aircraft, ships, rocket launchers, missiles,
all of that. And so now that the Russians forces have regrouped
and reattacked in the south and east, the Ukrainians are going
to face and are facing a very, very stiff battle and a huge
challenge to their sovereignty.
But so far yes, the Russian operation has been--has not
achieved President Putin's aims, which were to subordinate
Ukraine to Russian control.
Chairman Keating. I think to myself with so many people
that their actions clearly are indicative of a State-sponsored
terrorism. And there is much discussion about that issue, but
one of the things I see now and am learning about; perhaps you
could help us, is indeed that designation at this juncture
could actually limit some of our options. Are you familiar with
how that could actually limit at this juncture some of our
options?
Mr. Carpenter. Well, so I answered this question, chairman,
with regards to one of your colleagues on the subcommittee. You
may have been voting at the time. So my understanding is that
in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and
violations of international humanitarian law and human rights
law, which are matters of international law, the designation of
a State as a State-sponsored terrorism is something that is
done by the United States under domestic statute and so not be
pursued at the OSCE together with other allies are partners. It
would be a determination made by the legal advisor at the State
Department based upon a careful review of the definition that
is contained in that statute.
Now I am not an international lawyer, so I won't comment on
it, but I will----
Chairman Keating. Ambassador, I think you helped explain
this.
Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
Chairman Keating. I think there is perhaps less flexibility
and certainly less impact going our own domestic law, not that
that cannot be done in future, but it might inhibit or go in a
different direction than our international efforts with our
international allies. I think that is something we are looking
at as we look at that issue as well.
And last, there has been much talk already about the use of
energy and how brutally that is being done and what is the
impact of what they are doing on food supplies. I honestly
believe the amount of casualties as a result of Russia's
action, limiting food supplies, which they are well aware of,
may result in more deaths than the war itself as things spread
into the fall and this becomes more acute.
I do not know if you wanted to comment on the devastating
effects of Putin's actions on our--the food supply of the
world. Forty percent of fertilizers come from Belarus and
Russia, and indeed Ukraine and Russia are the breadbasket of
much of the world. This could indeed be one of the greatest
evil actions of Putin of all. Could you comment on that?
Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, I think Russia's actions to
blockade Ukraine's ports both in the Sea of Azov and the Black
Sea are having a devastating impact on global food security and
the blame has to be place squarely at Russia's feet because it
is the one that is preventing these foodstuffs from getting out
to markets around the world.
Ukraine is the No. 1 global producer of sunflower oil. They
produce a lot of wheat. They produce a lot of other grains. As
you mentioned, chair, they are considered one of the major
breadbaskets in the world. And their harvests are sitting in
storage facilities across Ukraine and are not getting out from
those ports like Mariupol, or Berdiansk, or Odessa because
Russian forces, and specifically the Black Sea fleet, is
blocking any ship, whether it is a State-owned vessel or a
commercial vessel, from leaving any of those ports. And so a
lot of that grain and those oils are being--are trapped there
in Ukraine as a result of this war.
Chairman Keating. And I have one more comment and I might
have turn it over to vote before we conclude, but it is the
issue that people should be aware of I think in terms of the
oil and gas imports with Europe. If that was an immediate
shutdown--this is something I understand has to be calibrated.
If it was an immediate effort to shut that down, that could
affect supply and actually in a short term give Putin more
profit right now for his war efforts. Is that your
understanding?
Mr. Carpenter. That is indeed my understanding and I
believe that European Union leaders including Ursula von der
Leyen and council president Charles Michel have said that when
they look at measures to impose costs on Russia, we would have
to be cognizant that we--that they not hurt their own economies
more than they hurt Russia's. And so that should be an
operating principle going forward.
Chairman Keating. Thank you for that. I just want to thank
you for--and I want to thank the vice chair for getting through
this. It is so important and it is extraordinary the bipartisan
participation we had in the midst of this. It is highly unusual
and it really goes to how important this is. I want to thank
you and I want to ask you if we can continue. We want to
continue on this issue with war crimes as it--on a continuing
basis. And thank you for your cooperation.
And with that, members will have 5 days to submit
statements or extraneous material, any questions for the record
subject to the length and limitation of the rules.
I want to thank again all the members.
And I want to thank you, Ambassador, for your service to
our country and for taking this issue one particularly. It is
something we want to join you in your efforts as Members of
Congress.
With that, I will call this hearing adjourned. Thank you
again.
[Whereupon, at 3:41 p.m, the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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