    [House Hearing, 117 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                      ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES
                       COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE RUSSIAN
                       FEDERATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE, ENERGY, THE
                                ENVIRONMENT AND CYBER

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 11, 2022

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 117-125

                                   __________

            Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

           Available:  http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
                                docs.house.gov,
                           or http://www.govinfo.gov

                                     __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    47-505PDF                      WASHINGTON : 2023

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                      GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

    BRAD SHERMAN, California              MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
    ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey                  Member
    GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia	      CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
    THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida	      STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    KAREN BASS, California		      SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
    WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts	      DARRELL ISSA, California
    DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	      ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
    AMI BERA, California		      LEE ZELDIN, New York
    JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas	              ANN WAGNER, Missouri
    DINA TITUS, Nevada		      BRIAN MAST, Florida
    TED LIEU, California		      BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania	      KEN BUCK, Colorado
    DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	      TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
    ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota		      MARK GREEN, Tennessee
    COLIN ALLRED, Texas		      ANDY BARR, Kentucky
    ANDY LEVIN, Michigan		      GREG STEUBE, Florida
    ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia	      DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
    CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania	      AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
    TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey	      PETER MEIJER, Michigan
    ANDY KIM, New Jersey	              NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
    SARA JACOBS, California		      RONNY JACKSON, Texas
    KATHY MANNING, North Carolina	      YOUNG KIM, California
    JIM COSTA, California		      MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
    JUAN VARGAS, California		      JOE WILSON, South Carolina
    VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
    BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois

                        Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director

                   Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director

                                    ------

            Subcommittee on Europe, Energy,the Environment and Cyber

                  WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts, Chairman

    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania             BRIAN FITZPATRICK,
    ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia             Pennsylvania,Ranking Member
    ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey		     ANN WAGNER, Missouri
    THEODORE DEUTCH, Florida	     ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois,
    DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	     BRIAN MAST, Florida
    DINA TITUS, Nevada		     DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
    DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	     AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
    JIM COSTA, California		     NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
    VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas	             PETER MEIJER, Michigan
    BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois

                          Leah Nodvin, Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                   WITNESSES

    Carpenter, Ambassador Dr. Michael R., Permanent Representative of
      the United States of America to the Organization for Security
      and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Mission to the Organization for
      Security and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Department of State...     8

                                    APPENDIX

    Hearing Notice...................................................    30
    Hearing Minutes..................................................    31
    Hearing Attendance...............................................    32

     ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE
                               RUSSIAN FEDERATION

                            Wednesday, May 11, 2022

                              House of Representatives,
                    Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the
                                 Environment and Cyber,
                          Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.m., via
    Webex, Hon. William Keating (chairman of the subcommittee)
    presiding.
        Chairman Keating. House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee will
    come to order.
        Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the committee at any point and all members will have
    5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and questions
    for the record subject to the length limitations to the rules.
    To insert something in the record please have your staff the
    previously mentioned address or contact full committee staff.
        Please keep your video function on at all times even when
    you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible
    for muting and un-muting themselves and please remember to mute
    yourself after finished speaking.
        The system with House Resolution 965 and the accompanying
    regulation staff will only mute members and witnesses as
    appropriate when they are not under recognition to eliminate
    background noise.
        I see we have a quorum present. Now recognize myself for an
    opening statement pursuant to the notice.
        We are holding a hearing today entitled, ``Justice and
    Accountability for War Crimes Committed in Ukraine by the
    Russian Federation.''
        Good afternoon and I thank all of you for participating in
    today's hearing. This is a timely and critical topic.
        On March 16 just days after the Russian Federation invaded
    Ukraine this subcommittee held a hearing dedicated to the early
    signs of war crimes and human rights abuses committed in
    Ukraine by the Russian military. Since that time the U.S. has
    taken significant steps to support the people of Ukraine in
    their fight for freedom while supporting the careful
    preservation of evidence of war crimes that are committed by
    the Russian Federation in Ukraine.
        Today Putin's war on Ukraine rages on and the onslaught of
    Russian aggression continues. More and more heartbreaking
    stories emerge from the front lines. It has no been 76 days
    since Russia's renewed invasion of Ukraine and the evidence of
    war crimes is insurmountable.
        As the Russian military retreated from the north of Kiev
    horrific accounts of war crimes and human rights abuse
    surfaced. Bucha, Borodianka, Irpin, Chernihiv, Sumy, Hostomel,
    and Kharkiv. In such instances Reuters reported that the
    residents of Staryi Bykiv watched and watched on as six of
    their civilian male countrymen died needless at the hands of
    the Russian troop.
        Russian military is also using sexual assault as a weapon
    of war. Many accusations of rape are streaming in all across
    Ukraine. Women and children have been the main targets of
    Russian sexual violence. In another instance the New York Times
    reported that a mother in Kharkiv sheltering with her 5-year-
    old daughter in school was forced into another room and
    repeatedly raped at gunpoint.
        As reports like this increase we cannot dismiss these as
    isolated incidents. At what point do we turn these systematic?
        Probably one of the worst stories yet is the deliberate
    bombing of the Donetsk Academic Regional Drama Theater in
    Mariupol that occurred on March 16. Reports from the Associated
    Press estimated that 600 civilians died in that blast.
    ``Dity,'' the Ukrainian word for children was painted on the
    ground in plain sight of satellite imagery. This was a signal
    to any Russian reconnaissance that this is a civilian target,
    yet still countless children died. We still do not know the
    exact number, but the site is now a mass grave under Russian
    occupation.
        And the worst yet may be to come as the fighting
    intensifies in the east and in the south. Russian military has
    continued artillery rocket and missile bombardment of civilian
    infrastructures and they disregard humanitarian excavation
    routes killing unarmed passengers as they drive in their cars.
    So far U.N. investigators have documented nearly 3,000 civilian
    deaths in Ukraine.
        My colleagues, based on the evidence collected so far I
    believe the Russian Federation is undeniably committing crimes
    against humanity that amount to genocide. I repeat, and I do
    not take the term lightly, I believe that they--I believe that
    we are seeing in Ukraine right now is a genocide committed by
    the Russian Federation against the people of Ukraine. I will
    leave it up to the lawyers to debate the exact abrogation of
    this term, but to me Putin rhetoric and his blatant attempt to
    ride this world--to rid this world of people and the culture of
    Ukraine itself meets this definition.
        It is now the job of the international community, including
    Members of Congress and especially this subcommittee, to keep
    the spotlight on these atrocities and to see--so that the U.S.
    does everything in its power to help the Ukrainians seek
    justice.
        As chair of the subcommittee I was on the ground in Poland
    just 2 weeks ago to hear firsthand the stories of Ukrainian
    refugees who have fled westward. Some have trekked hundreds of
    miles, never knowing if they will see their homes again or if
    their homes are even going to be there when they go back to it.
        I heard stories of family members including children
    pleading with Russian soldiers to leave Mariupol only to be
    rejected at the contact line. Their fate has been to wait out
    the bombardment or get shipped to Russia and join reduction
    camps. I returned from Poland, reconfirmed that the U.S. must
    do everything in our power to ensure justice for the victims of
    these war crimes committed in the Ukraine, yet this
    determination of mine I think (inaudible) on a few points.
        First, we live in an age where perpetrators cannot hide.
    Between cell phone photos and videos captured in the
    battlefields and postings on social media to satellite images
    of Russian attacks the truth is still out there and we have to
    just see it to watch it.
        Second, we live in a period of great unity and solidarity
    with Ukraine. This is exactly why our forbearers created the
    United Nations, NATO, and other international institutions.
        And finally, we have a collective conscience with shared
    values. We know that the values that we share are being
    violated. We know this war is wrong. We know these atrocities
    are not isolated. The question is what will we do and how will
    we live up to our commitments of never again?
        With that being said, I look forward to the testimony we
    are about to hear from our esteemed witness, Ambassador Michael
    Carpenter. Dr. Carpenter has been a vocal critic of the Kremlin
    and has persistently advocated for not only the Ukrainian
    people, but for human rights in general. To bring war criminals
    to justice the coalition of countries and international
    organizations need to cooperate and relentlessly pursue these
    cases. The ranking member and I have asked Ambassador Carpenter
    to speak about the ways in which the OSCE can play an important
    role in this effort.
        Thank you very much, Ambassador, for being here today. I
    look forward to hearing your perspectives on how the U.S. and
    especially Congress can work in promoting awareness and gather
    information from possible war crimes on Ukraine holding war
    criminals accountable.
        And I now turn to the ranking member, Mr. Fitzpatrick. I
    thank him for his cooperation and support in this and his
    commitment to Ukraine which goes back to his days before
    Congress in the FBI. Thank you, ranking member. And I now yield
    to you for your opening statement.
        Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Chairman Keating. Thank you for
    your partnership. This is something that our entire Congress
    and our entire nation have rallied around, the cause of
    supporting freedom and independence for the good people of
    Ukraine and also fully pursuing the war crimes of Vladimir
    Putin and his regime.
        I want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing
    today.
        To the Ambassador, Ambassador Carpenter, for being here
    with us.
        As we all know, Russia invaded Ukraine back on February 24,
    earlier this year. They have not stopped in their unjustified
    war on the innocent people of Ukraine ever since. And as a
    result more than 6 million Ukrainians have left the country.
    Europe is facing the largest refugee crisis since World War II
    and over a quarter of the population of Ukraine has been
    displaced.
        Just this morning news coverage estimated that another
    10,000 people could die in Mariupol by the end of the year if
    conditions did not improve. This is just a complete atrocity.
    And it is no secret what Russia is capable of and how far they
    are willing to go to achieve total control of the former Soviet
    Bloc. It is also clear that Russia has committed war crimes in
    Ukraine against Ukrainians.
        As the chairman had pointed out, some of the examples
    include intentionally killing civilians, overt acts of torture,
    hostage taking, beheadings, intentionally targeting and
    destroying civilian property. The list goes on and on. We have
    seen Russian forces attack and fire upon a nuclear plant,
    bombed civilian infrastructure buildings such as residential
    homes and apartments, destroy and operating maternity ward with
    infants inside, and target a pediatric cancer hospital. Does
    not get any worse than this. And these are only a few of the
    horrific acts that the Putin regime has carried out and it is
    clear that they stop at nothing including killing innocent
    children and women, including children with cancer in order to
    continue his rampage on Ukraine.
        The Russian Federation has a long history of committing war
    crimes and it has never been held accountable, and that needs
    to change. Moreover, this is no indication that Russia will
    stop their attacks on Ukraine any time soon. How many times
    will Russia have to be accused of committing war crimes for
    them to be stopped. The people of Ukraine deserve justice and
    the entire world is watching. And the time is now to hold
    Russia accountable for the horrific acts of the people of
    Ukraine.
        And I look forward to continuing working with Chairman
    Keating in a bipartisan manner, with you, Mr. Ambassador, and
    with all people across the world, including everybody in this
    Congress who wants to support freedom and democracy and human
    rights, and all that is good in the world. The Ukrainians are
    showing us their heart, but we need to back them up, not just
    the United States, but the entire world. Anybody who supports
    freedom and democracy over dictatorships needs to step up and
    make the tough decisions to do what is right here.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, ranking member.
        And I would like to introduce our witness today and thank
    him for being here. It is critically important that we hear
    from you and that you communicate in your role not only the way
    you are to other countries, but to us as Members of Congress.
        Yesterday I joined a group of members meeting with
    President Biden for over 2 hours in the White House and we
    talked about this hearing. We talked about the war crimes that
    are being committed and his commitment to bring accountability
    and justice wherever he can.
        Ambassador, again thank you for being here.
        Ambassador Michael R. Carpenter is a permanent
    representative of the United States of America Mission, the
    Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He is the
    Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia,
    Ukraine, and Eurasia, and Conventional Arms Control at the
    Pentagon, as well as a former White House Foreign Policy
    Advisor to then-Vice President Biden, and Director for Russia
    at the National Security Council.
        I will now recognize Ambassador Carpenter for 5 minutes.
    And we give great deal of flexibility. It is a virtual hearing
    that is being taken place while some votes are being taken
    place.
        And I want to also say that without objection, your
    prepared written statements will be made part of the record.
        Ambassador Carpenter, you are now recognized for your
    opening statement.

    STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR MICHAEL R. CARPENTER, Ph D., PERMANENT
         REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THE
       ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE, U.S.
      MISSION TO THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN
                    EUROPE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Chairman Keating, Ranking Member
    Fitzpatrick, and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
        I greatly appreciate this opportunity to appear before you
    today to testify on the topic of accountability and justice for
    Russia's atrocities including war crimes in Ukraine.
        The OSCE has played a unique and important role in
    documenting the horrific atrocities Russia has committed and
    continues to commit in Ukraine. As some of my colleagues
    testified last week in the Helsinki Commission's hearing on war
    crimes in Ukraine, one of the OSCE's most powerful tools is its
    ability to quickly establish and deploy a fact-finding mission,
    even without the consensus of all the OSCE's participating
    States.
        On March 3, 45 OSCE participating States, a record
    majority, that included the United States, invoked with
    Ukraine's support what is informally known as the Moscow
    Mechanism and in less than 2 weeks the mission was launched. It
    was mandated to examine possible violations and abuses of human
    rights and violations of international humanitarian law
    including war crimes and crimes against humanity.
        The mission's report released on April 13 covers the first
    5 weeks of the war from February 24 to April 1 and documents
    what might be called the Catalog of Inhumanity perpetrated by
    Russia's forces in Ukraine including evidence of direct
    targeting of civilians, attacks on medical facilities, rape,
    executions, looting, and deportation of civilians to Russia.
        The mission found clear patterns of international
    humanitarian law violations by Russia's forces and noted that
    it is not conceivable that so many civilians would have been
    killed and injured and so many civilians objects would have
    been damaged or destroyed if Russia had respected its
    international humanitarian law obligations in terms of
    distinction, proportionality, and precautions.
        The report documents many particularly heinous attacks such
    as the March 9 attack striking the Mariupol Maternity House and
    Children's Hospital that the chairman referred to determining
    that based upon Russia's own statements about the strike,
    quote, ``The attack must have been deliberate,'' end quote. The
    mission concluded that no effective warning was given and that
    the strike constitutes a clear violation of international
    humanitarian law and a war crime. While the Russian government
    alleged the hospital was used for military purposes, the
    mission categorically dismissed these claims.
        Similarly the mission found that the March 16 attack on the
    drama theater in Mariupol that killed approximately 600 people
    was most likely an egregious violation of international
    humanitarian law and that those who ordered or executed it
    committed a war crime. The reporter powerful chronicles cases
    of Russia's forces arresting civilians including journalists
    without any procedure and ill-treating them by methods that
    amount to torture.
        It also cites evidence showing that Russia's forces engaged
    in a, quote, ``widespread and systematic pattern,'' end quote,
    of damage to Ukrainian health care facilities with attacks on
    52 facilities just between February 24 and March 22 by
    indiscriminate bombardment and in some cases intentional
    targeting noting that these strikes too constitute war crimes.
        Since the period covered in the report the scale of
    atrocities committed by Russia's forces in Ukraine has
    dramatically escalated. Russia has continued its campaign of
    utter destruction in Mariupol and has launched a renewed
    offensive in Ukraine's east and south. Tens of thousands of
    civilians are feared dead in Russia's barbaric siege of
    Mariupol. Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed
    evidence of mass killings and widespread sexual violence
    committed by members of Russia's forces again civilians.
        Russia appears to be intensifying its ongoing forced
    transfers and deportations of local populations from Mariupol
    and other regions of Ukraine to Russia or Russia-controlled
    parts of the Donbas through so-called filtration camps, a truly
    abominable practice that hearkens back to an era we all thought
    we would never see again.
        Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed
    evidence of mass killing and widespread sexual violence
    committed by members of Russia's forces against Ukrainian
    civilians and further credible reports are mounting that Russia
    is further abducting, torturing, and/or murdering locally
    elected leaders, journalists, and civil society activists, as
    well as religious leaders in the areas under its control.
        It is increasingly clear that Russia's war is an attempt to
    suppress Ukrainian identity and culture. Moscow appears to be
    planning to attempt to forcibly annex the so-called Donetsk and
    Luhansk People's Republics in the coming weeks or months and is
    considering a similar operation in the Kherson region.
        In areas under its control Russia has forced schools to
    switch to a Russian curriculum and has put the Russian ruble
    into general use. It has also started changing the names of
    towns and villages in areas it controls as well as changing
    street signs from Ukrainian to Russian.
        Russia's military campaign is underpinned by continuous
    dehumanizing propaganda deployed on a repeat loop by Russian
    government officials and State-run or State-controlled media
    that deny Ukraine is historically or culturally distinct from
    Russia and that it has a right to exist as a sovereign
    independent nation State.
        Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thanks to the
    support of the United States and like-minded nations the OSCE's
    highly regarded Office of Democratic Institutions and Human
    Rights, ODIHR, is already on the ground in Ukraine and
    neighboring countries researching and documenting the most
    serious violations of human rights and international
    humanitarian law to help ensure accountability.
        We continue to explore ways we can leverage the OSCE to
    support Ukraine and the Ukrainian people alongside other
    international efforts to ensure accountability including
    another potential invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We are
    committed to using every available tool to ensure Russia is
    held accountable for its monstrous atrocities.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to any questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Carpenter follows:]

        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairman Keating. Thank you, Ambassador.
        I may, just because of the format here--I notice on the
    screen is--Representative Wild is here.
        I do not know if you would like to given the roll calls
    begin your questioning now. I will give you that opportunity
    for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Wild. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would be
    delighted to do my questioning if that is what I was being
    offered. Did I hear correctly?
        Chairman Keating. Yes.
        Ms. Wild. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
        And thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for being here. This is a
    matter of great importance to me, but also to my community in
    Pennsylvania's 7th District where we have one of the largest
    Ukrainian American populations here in the United States. And
    so I feel very strongly, because many of them still have family
    and friends in Ukraine, that it is my obligation on their
    behalf to ask about the Administration's efforts to make sure
    that Russian officials are going to held to some degree of
    justice and accountability for the actions. And I can hear from
    your opening statement that that is the full intent that you
    have and that the Administration has, and I thank you for that.
        Let me just start by asking how far is the Administration
    prepared to go in supporting the efforts to hold Russia and
    Russian officials accountable, including any proceedings in the
    International Criminal Court despite the fact that we are not a
    member?
        And I will as you my second question just so you can answer
    both at the same time. Does the Administration have a view on
    the specific mechanism through which Putin and high-ranking
    Russian officials could be held to account for these actions?
    Thank you.
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Wild, for that--
    for those two questions.
        On the first we are determined to support all international
    accountability mechanisms to include the International Criminal
    Court. As my colleague Beth Van Schaack, Special Envoy Beth Van
    Schaack has said before, we support an all-of-the-above
    approach. So we are determined to use all of the multilateral
    tools as well as frankly national jurisdictions to pursue
    accountability. And as I am sure you are aware, the Ukrainian
    prosecutor general is also working over time to ensure that she
    is able to document cases of war crimes and possible crimes
    against humanity in Ukraine. In fact, I believe she has brought
    her first case just today against a captive Russian service
    member.
        But we are determined to use all of the tools available to
    include the OSCE and its Moscow Mechanism, which we have
    invoked once. And as I said, we are prepared to invoke it
    again. We have the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, which has been
    established but not--is not yet up and running. And so we hope
    that that jurisdiction will have progress. The prosecutor of
    the International Criminal Court has found that he is going to
    pursue this line of inquiry into war crimes in Ukraine and we
    will support that to the maximal extent we can.
        Then on your second question regarding President Putin, it
    is our belief that all Russians within the chain of command who
    are guilty of war crimes should be accountable. And of course
    this is a tricky question of how you get them into a
    jurisdiction where they can face justice from a court of law,
    as they must. It is not going to be easy, but we believe at the
    end of the day that we have to insist that everyone at all
    different levels of the chain of command is held accountable.
        Ms. Wild. Well, thank you. Obviously I agree. And your
    answer leads to this, which is would you agree that these
    atrocities have reinforced the need for a more effective
    international justice system that can hold powerful countries
    accountable?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. I do agree. I
    think we need a system that is flexible but that has the
    authority to immediately pursue these sorts of cases when
    evidence comes to light that there are war crimes or other
    crimes against humanity, potentially genocide, and so on and so
    forth. There are multiple overlapping jurisdictions. It is a
    little bit messy, but we intend to work through all of those
    accountable mechanisms as I just said including the ICC, but
    also the ICJ, which is also looking into the question of
    genocide in Ukraine. And we are going to continue to help these
    institutions to compile the evidence, preserve the evidence,
    and bring cases against individuals.
        Ms. Wild. Thank you. I am hoping we will use this as a tool
    for enhancing our international criminal justice system going
    forward in the future. I have fears that Russians and the Putin
    regime, in part because of Russia's robust global propaganda
    machine, do not take these calls for accountability and justice
    seriously or do not view them seriously. And I think it is
    essential that we carry through with our word, that we take--
    that we support all efforts to hold them accountable, and as I
    said and have mentioned, using every possible tool to do so
    because we cannot allow Putin and other superpowers to believe
    that they are going to be free of eventual justice. So thank
    you so much for this commitment.
        I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        The chair now recognizes Representative Meijer for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can you hear me?
        OK. And I am grateful that we are having the chance to hold
    this subcommittee hearing. I appreciate some of our earlier
    work when we hosted Bellingcat and some of the other open
    source observers who have been cataloging a lot of these
    Russian atrocities.
        I guess my first question for Ambassador Carpenter--when we
    are looking at cataloging the war crimes, to my knowledge there
    hasn't yet been the kind of smoking gun plan coming from on
    high, from the Russian generals, from Vladimir Putin that says
    we want to systematically and categorically kill off the
    civilian population of Ukraine. We have obviously seen the
    intercepted messages from more senior officers, more mid-
    ranking members, and then also the awareness on behalf of some
    of the lower junior officers and lower enlisted who are
    perpetrating many of these crimes.
        How are we looking at the question of intentionality, the
    specific targeting as we saw in Mariupol where it could not
    have been more clear that that was a facility with children
    inside versus the just indiscriminate attacks, the lack of any
    efforts made to reduce civilian casualties that has frankly
    seemed to be the modus operandi of the Russian military?
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Meijer, for that
    question. I think it is going to be--each case is going to be a
    little bit different. I think we are going to have to rely on
    both declassified intelligence as well as open sources
    regarding culpability at both the unit or individual soldier
    level and then all the way up to those as I said in the chain
    of command who may have given orders that were to some degree
    explicit about the perpetration of these crimes.
        Now I am not a lawyer. I understand that the war crimes
    themselves will be prosecuted based on an individual basis, so
    individuals will be held to account in a court of law, but also
    international human rights law can determine that if there is
    in fact systematic patterns of abuse and systematic war crimes,
    that those are crimes against humanity and that label gets
    applied potentially to the Russian Federation as a State.
        And so frankly, we are looking as we expand our efforts
    possibly with a second invocation of this Moscow Mechanism and
    working together with other accountability mechanisms
    internationally at both of those angles and then genocide
    relatedly. But that is the systematic nature. And it goes to
    intentionality at the top and whether there was an expectation
    that these crimes would be committed by units in Ukraine
    especially after information has already come to light that
    these sorts of crimes were being perpetrated.
        And then to your point, I think it is a little bit more
    difficult with some of the indiscriminate attacks, but cases
    have been made in the past and can be made that lack of respect
    for any proportionality with regards to targeting is in fact a
    war crime.
        Mr. Meijer. And I have actually mentioned that kind of
    general labeling potential for Russia, the Russian Federation I
    should say, that crimes against humanity. I know President
    Biden has suggested labeling or designating Russia as a State
    sponsor of terrorism.
        Can you speak at all to how--what type of overlap that
    would have with war crimes and kind of atrocity international
    prosecution side, if those are two wholly different separate
    channels? I am just curious. I feel like we haven't had
    necessarily a robust discussion on that and in prior instances
    we have looked at--and the Russian equivalent here would
    probably be the Wagner Group--we have looked at sort of
    mercenary forces or aligned but not necessarily in the full
    military chain of command, the Quds force in Iran being
    another--forces that we can designate as terrorist--foreign
    terrorist organization. But I guess how are you seeing that
    being weighed, FTO designations for constituent components
    versus the Nation, Russian Federation itself being label a
    State sponsor of terror?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for that question. So
    my understanding is that the cases that are brought under the
    war crimes mantra, or as crimes against humanity, those are
    violations of international law, either of international
    humanitarian law or international human rights law.
        The designation of a State as a State sponsor of terrorism
    is defined by U.S. statute and would be--so this would not be a
    matter of international law; this would be a determination that
    would have to be made by the State Department upon legal review
    as to whether the definition, whether the bar that is defined
    in that statute has been met.
        Now my understanding on this State sponsor of terrorism
    label is that the statute then requires that certain sanctions
    be implemented as a result. And my understanding is that many
    of those sanctions that would be triggered by this designation
    are already in play. So in terms of practical consequences and
    accountability I think a lot of those actions have already been
    taken. There might be scope for doing a little bit more, but I
    think most of those actions are already underway. So this would
    be pursuant to domestic legislation as opposed to
    international.
        Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
        And, Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. I yield back.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        The chair now recognizes Representative Phillips for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Welcome, Mr. Ambassador. Three quick questions for you
    starting with how do you mechanically connect atrocities on the
    ground in Ukraine back to the architects of that violence in
    Moscow and ultimately potentially to President Putin himself?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, that is a very good question and a very
    tricky one. It will be difficult I think to find because of the
    insular nature of Kremlin decisionmaking and because of the
    fact that the Kremlin also wants to keep those communications
    secret. It is very difficult to trace back specific instances,
    or will be difficult in the future to trace back to specific
    instances on the ground, whether it is in Bucha or Borodianka,
    or any of these other atrocities that we now see have come to
    light back to a specific order given from the Kremlin.
        But I think all leads will be pursued. There may be
    commanders in the field who in the course of their
    communication may reveal the level at which the order was given
    or it may be subordinates who are talking about this. And then
    we would have to infer how far up it goes. So it is going to be
    a painstaking effort, I have to say. It is not going to be
    easy. I do not want to give any impressions that this is going
    to be simple.
        But certainly I think those leads will be pursued and we
    will--as I said earlier, we are going to use all available
    tools, open-source and not open-source, to pursue the evidence
    where it leads.
        Mr. Phillips. OK. And relative to that work how
    intentionally as--have the Russians tried to stymie the work of
    the OSCE field missions themselves and hinder progress? Are
    they calculated in that respect.
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, absolutely. Very calculated. So we saw
    back when we had the Special Monitoring Mission active in
    Ukraine, with its 600 or 700 members that was documenting
    cease-fire violations and the presence of heavy weapons in
    prescribed zones in Eastern Ukraine, that its freedom of
    movement, which was stipulated both in the mandate of the
    Special Monitoring Mission, which was agreed by Russia--but
    then also in the three Minsk Agreements, the ones from
    September 2014 and February 2015, specifically said that it
    should be granted unfettered access, and yet we saw that
    Russia's proxies, who were under the very clear command and
    control of the Russian Federation, were blocking that mission
    from having the access that it needed to be able to declare
    that cease-fire violations were occurring in this or that area.
        So we saw that repeatedly. And then we have seen it again.
    In fact we see now detentions of national staff members of the
    OSCE SMM by Russia's proxies in Eastern Ukraine, which is just
    beyond the pale in terms of the fact that they signed up to
    this mission. They were partly responsible for the fact that it
    existed and it was deployed on the ground.
        Mr. Phillips. Can you quantify how many detentions?
        Mr. Carpenter. My understanding is four, but I may not have
    the latest data because this is being worked in the OSCE
    Secretariat. But there are--to my knowledge there have been
    four cases of such detentions.
        Mr. Phillips. OK. Last and most importantly, what can the
    U.S. Congress do to support the OSCE investigations and the
    field missions investigating war crimes? Is there anything
    incrementally that you would like to see us provide or do?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think the OSCE currently has the
    resources that it needs to pursue additional accountability
    mechanisms using the Moscow Mechanism and also using--I should
    have mentioned at the outset also using the Office of
    Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which has a mandate--
    it is one of the autonomous institutions within the OSCE and it
    has a specific mandate to monitor human rights violations. Some
    of its staff are already redeployed inside Ukraine and are
    conducting monitoring. Others have deployed to the borders
    between Ukraine and Poland, and Ukraine and Romania, and
    Moldova and Slovakia, Hungary, to interview those refugees who
    are fleeing Ukraine to gather evidence about systematic
    patterns of human rights violations and war crimes inside
    Ukraine.
        So there may be a need for additional funding especially
    for the ODIHR monitoring, which is ongoing. I think we, the
    State Department, has the authorities and the funding streams
    currently to be able to back those efforts. And we will, and
    we--but we count on Congress as well to continue to support
    vocally from your bully pulpit the use of these tools to hold
    individuals accountable.
        Mr. Phillips. OK. Well most importantly thank you for your
    remarkable and important work.
        And with that, I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        The chair now recognizes Representative Wagner for 5
    minutes.
        Mrs. Wagner. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I want to thank Ambassador Carpenter also for his
    service and certainly for his time today.
        We know that Putin's soldiers are deliberately killing
    civilians, preying upon the defenseless and vulnerable. Russian
    war crimes are certainly a profound offense to all peaceful and
    responsible nations and they must always be matched with severe
    consequences.
        Russia seeks to erase the bright line that must separate
    combatants from civilians. It is reviving the abhorrent
    practices and idealogies that were the hallmarks of
    totalitarian dictatorships of the previous century, the
    discriminate and wanton violence, terror, summary executions,
    and mass killings. It has been decades since the world has seen
    a country so shamelessly embrace a cult of death and violence.
    This is a pivotal moment in history and swift decisive action
    to punish Putin's war crimes is imperative.
        Putin has proven himself to be the heir of the worst mass
    murderers in history. He must be stopped and punished and the
    United States must do what it can today to prepare for the
    moment when Putin at last suffers the consequences of his
    crimes.
        Ambassador Carpenter, following Russia's initial invasion
    of Ukraine in 2014 human rights groups reported evidence of
    crimes against humanity including the summary execution of
    soldiers and the murder of prisoners of war. How did the
    Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE,
    use its tools and mechanisms then to hold Russia accountable
    for those prior crimes against humanity? And has the OSCE
    incorporated any lessons learned to assure that its
    accountability efforts are more effective in deterring human
    rights violations?
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question.
    So as I noted in the opening statement, the OSCE did invoke the
    Moscow Mechanism to be able to look into egregious human rights
    violations, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The period
    from the initial report that was conducted and assembled by the
    fact-finding mission was from February 21--February 24, excuse
    me, the first day of the invasion and it went through to April
    1.
        Now as you will recall, Congresswoman, the evidence,
    especially of the summary execution of civilians; not even
    solders or POWs, but civilians----
        Mrs. Wagner. Right.
        Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. In Bucha, the folks who had
    their hands tied behind their backs and were shot point blank
    in the head, that evidence, or at least the video evidence came
    to light in early April. So after the period where this fact-
    finding team was mandated to look at these questions in
    Ukraine.
        So what we are now contemplating doing, and what I have
    advocated and I mentioned again in the opening statement, is a
    re-invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We can go back and look
    at the same period, from February 24 until today, or until
    whenever they choose based on their mandate, to look again at
    these very same questions and to analyze the systematic pattern
    of these violations in Bucha----
        Mrs. Wagner. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Ambassador. I want
    to get one more question in as I am running out of time.
        We are seeing reports of Ukrainians, especially children,
    being deported to Russia to be held in captivity and for the
    purpose of perhaps reeducating them, we are told. Do you or the
    OSCE have any more details on these Russian activities?
        Mr. Carpenter. So I cannot say I have a whole lot of
    detail. We have some eyewitness accounts and reports that we
    have received including from Ukrainian government officials,
    the mayor of Mariupol. I personally met with the mayor of
    Melitopal who was abducted from his office in broad daylight.
    In fact it was captured CCTV camera where they put a bag over
    his head and they marched him down the street. He managed to
    escape after I think it was 9 days, or almost 10 days in
    captivity faced with mock executions almost every day. He could
    hear screams of others in the detention facility who he
    believed were being tortured.
        And so yes, we do have reports that these so-called
    filtration camps are operational in Southern and Eastern
    Ukraine, that the Ukrainian population of these regions is
    being forced through these camps. They are being interrogated.
    Their cell phones are being confiscated. They are being forced
    to give up their passwords. All these reports are coming in. It
    is truly atrocious and if true, Congresswoman, it would--those
    would be war crimes.
        Mrs. Wagner. Oh, good. I hope we are documenting
    everything. I have exhausted my time.
        I appreciate the chair's indulgence and I yield back.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        Now I recognize the vice chair of the committee,
    Representative Spanberger, for 5 minutes. As I vote, she will
    also chair this hearing until I return.
        So, Representative Spanberger?
        Ms. Spanberger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. I really appreciate the
    opportunity to speak with you today and have appreciated your
    comments thus far with the questions posed by my colleagues.
        So technology has always mattered in the prosecution of war
    crimes. The Nazis who stood trial at Nuremberg were convicted
    not only by war reporters' photographs and films, but also by
    their on typewriters and mimeographs. Forensic science and
    satellite imagery added to the prosecution of Rwandan and
    Yugoslavian war criminals. But today we have user-generated
    evidence uploaded to Twitter, Facebook, and other social media
    platforms thousands of times a day in Ukraine alone.
        So I would like for you to comment on how social media and
    modern technology has changed the way that investigators
    collect evidence for potential war crimes. How does social
    media and modern technology ensure perpetrators cannot hide
    evidence of their crimes reports? And I have got some followup
    questions, but I would like to begin with that portion of your
    answers.
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Spanberger. It is
    a great question and obviously social media tools, but other
    forms of technology including commercial satellite imagery have
    been used to identify individuals based on their geo-location,
    based on a variety of other factors that can corroborate that
    they were in a specific place at a specific time when an
    atrocity was being committed.
        We have seen investigations by independent journalists on
    the ground in places like Bucha, and Irpin, and Borodianka
    already which have found documentation by those Russian units
    who were there, that they were involved in these sorts of
    atrocities. At the moment I think it is still limited in terms
    of the number of individuals that have been pinpointed, but as
    I mentioned earlier already the Ukrainian prosecutor general
    has brought a case against one Russian service member who is in
    captivity in Ukraine because they have found compelling
    evidence that he committed war crimes. And I have no doubt that
    there will be many more such cases that are brought through a
    combination of social media evidence and other forms of
    sophisticated use of technologies, information technologies
    to----
        Ms. Spanberger. OK.
        Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. Both locate and then also
    follow those leads.
        Ms. Spanberger. So, Mr. Ambassador, a followup related to
    that: So I think about how the U.S. can facilitate evidence
    gathering activities on the ground and Ukraine's--in
    cooperation with social media companies. One of my concerns or
    my areas of interest is that settlements with the Federal Trade
    Commission have required that certain social media companies
    agree to permanently delete any content that they take down
    from their site, but in many cases that content that may also
    violate terms of service or act as harmful disinformation could
    be evidence of war crimes.
        So how can we when we are looking at how to balance
    concerns over user privacy in a domestic context also balance
    that with the pressing concerns that we want to ensure that we
    are stopping the spread of disinformation, but that we are also
    preserving evidence of war crimes? Are you concerned about the
    issues of when they might have permanently delete information
    what that might mean for evidence?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you. And I think this is a little
    bit outside of my lane. And of course I appreciate your own
    background and your understanding of these issues, which I
    think is probably more sophisticated than my own. I do think
    that there is a tradeoff there, but since we are talking
    perpetrators who are not U.S. citizens, who are not subject to
    the same constitutional protections that Americans would be,
    there is a distinction to be made there. And perhaps that can
    be leveraged in order to preserve some of this evidence, which
    has been--it has been the pointy tip of the spear as far as
    gathering evidence.
        Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much. I could continue
    asking my questions, but I must go vote. So I turn it back over
    to Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
        Chairman Keating. Mr. Pfluger.
        Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ambassador, we appreciate your time and the effort that you
    are putting into this, and just a couple of questions: I think
    with the information warfare and the use of digital
    manipulation and the false flag operations we have seen can you
    maybe transmit to us in the--I have got a couple other followup
    questions, but what are your concerns on that kind of--that
    side of--it is a little bit to Ms. Spanberger's question, but
    the digital manipulation, or the covering up, or the just
    overall issues with separating fact from fiction and the
    discernment? How does that impact the investigators' ability to
    do their job and to catalog what we know and are seeing as
    fact?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for the question. So
    as you know, representative, we have been very proactive in
    getting information out into the public arena regarding what we
    believe would be Russian potential false flag operations. And
    this goes back to the period prior to February 24 when we
    believed that Russia was going to stage some sort of false flag
    operation to use it as a pretext for launching the war. At the
    end of the day they did not have any justification whatsoever.
    They just went in with all their forces from 1 day to the next.
        However, Russian propaganda, including here at the OSCE but
    also in other places, has been replete with instances of
    Russians accusing Ukrainians of committing the crimes that we
    know are being committed by Russian forces. I think the
    evidentiary trail is very clear and leads back to those Russian
    units, but in the information space of course we are going to
    be dealing with a very robust stream of Russian propaganda day
    in and day out making these false allegations.
        Mr. Pfluger. Yes, so that kind of goes to the heart of what
    I am trying to understand is during the course of this hearing
    I have actually looked at pictures that are--have been taken
    from a source that are firsthand pictures that depict an
    atrocity that has already been discussed here. And we are
    seeing that time and time again.
        And I have got a followup question on that, but I guess my
    question is how are we cataloging? Are you concerned about
    preserving that evidence? And then are we able to get that out
    into--obviously not the pictures themselves, but to quote/quote
    ``win the information campaign'' to make that the propaganda
    from Russia does not overtake the actual evidentiary body that
    there is possibly war crimes--I think what we can call war
    crimes being committed?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so I think it is very important that we
    have folks go in and on the ground are able to look at the
    evidence and preserve the evidence because we have already seen
    these reports that, for example in Mariupol Russia's deploying
    mobile crematoria in order to be able to get rid of some of the
    bodies of those who have suffered from Russian atrocities. And
    so it is very, very important that the international community
    writ large, both the OSCE, but also the other actors that I
    mentioned: the ICC and the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, have
    that access on the ground so that they can preserve the
    evidence. Because often mixed in with that--with those mass
    graves is evidence of who committed those crimes. And so it is
    important to get there quickly.
        Mr. Pfluger. Ambassador, my last question for you is
    looking at past policy precedence for the U.S. has opposed the
    ICC assertions of jurisdiction when it comes to the non-parties
    to the Rome Statute. To what extent do you think this
    Administration is actually going to pursue a war crimes trial
    at the ICC?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you for the question. So the
    United States is not a party to the Rome Statute obviously, as
    you mentioned, but we will support the ICC and its prosecutor
    in bringing cases against perpetrators of war crimes in
    Ukraine. And we have said that publicly and we will continue to
    do that both via the OSCE, but also via whatever resources we
    have available. And we will have information of course that
    other nations are not privy to that we will be able to share at
    the end of the day with the ICC to enable to bring cases.
        Mr. Pfluger. I have 40 seconds left. With the sources that
    we have that are on the ground in Ukraine should we be--what do
    we do with those assertions of war crimes? And the people that
    we are talking to we know--where do I tell people to send that
    evidence to and how do we facilitate that to continue to build
    this case?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think it is going to be imperative
    at some point that all the various accountability mechanisms
    coordinate. There is already a lot of communication happening,
    but there clearly needs to be a repository of evidence that is
    located in one place. And there is any number of NGO's
    operating in Ukraine, both Ukrainians, but also from other
    nations, that are conducting very valuable work. But again, it
    is important how they do it, what their methodology is, how
    they preserve the evidence so that it withstands scrutiny in a
    court of law when the actual case is brought. And so that
    coordination is imperative. Some of it is already starting to
    happen, but the United States actually--this Administration can
    help promote that coordination among different international
    accountability mechanisms. So thank you for the question.
        Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Ambassador. My time is expired.
        I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        The chair now recognizes Representative Cicilline for 5
    minutes, who will chair the hearing also as I go to vote.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to
    you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick for--sorry. Thank you, Mr.
    Chairman and thank you to you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick
    for holding this really important hearing.
        Since February 24 and the start of Vladimir Putin's
    grotesque war in Ukraine our committee has really snapped into
    action advancing the cause of peaceful freedom for the people
    of Ukraine and the consequences for Vladimir Putin and the
    architects of his unjust invasion.
        Let this hearing serve as a warning to the Putin regime we
    will do all we can to hold you and your enablers responsible
    for your crimes.
        The images that have emerged from areas like Bucha and
    Irpin have stirred the conscience of the world: men, women, and
    children with their hands tied behind their backs and shot to
    death; elderly Ukrainians who were executed while they searched
    for food; civilians confined to frigid hiding places dead from
    thirst; the partially burned bodies of women and girls who were
    victims of depraved acts of sexual violence.
        In pursuit of his terrible plan for the rebirth of a
    Russian Empire, Vladimir Putin is presiding over a military
    that is losing on the battlefield and instead hoping to achieve
    his goals by unleashing horrors on civilians reminiscent of the
    darkest day of World War II or the breakup of Yugoslavia. We
    must ensure that Putin and his regime fails in that aim.
        To that end I am currently working on a bicameral piece of
    legislation with Senator Durbin, chairman of the Senate
    Judiciary Committee, that would allow the United States to hold
    perpetrators who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity
    accountable in U.S. courts. This will ensure that the United
    States does not become a safe haven for criminals who commit
    atrocious human rights violations to live free of
    accountability. In the defense of human rights war criminals
    face justice and I pledge to continue leading on that effort.
        And, Mr. Ambassador, I want to ask you first about that.
    Currently the United States is limited in its jurisdiction to
    try war criminals and perpetrators of other atrocities, meaning
    that even if we have mountains of evidence that a war criminal
    is residing in the United States, we may have no means to hold
    that individual accountable in U.S. courts. Do you think the
    United States should expand our jurisdiction to try war
    criminals on U.S. soil?
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, representative. So there are a
    number of OSCE participating States that I work with on a
    regular basis whose courts have invoked universal jurisdiction
    in the past and whose representatives have signaled that they
    intend to do so in the future, specifically with regards to the
    allegations of war crimes committed by Russian forces in
    Ukraine. So this is an avenue that is being pursued by some of
    our allies and partners and I have no doubt that a number of
    these States, which have very sophisticated investigation and
    judicial institutions, will succeed in this effort.
        I do not know how many of the perpetrators of these crimes
    are going to be traveling into these various jurisdictions, so
    how many will actually be apprehended and therefore subject to
    these courts of law, but this is certainly something that a lot
    of countries at the OSCE table are looking at.
        Mr. Cicilline. Great. And, Mr. Ambassador, as you suggested
    collecting and storing and assessing evidence of war crimes
    committed by the Russian Federation, Ukraine is obviously
    critical to any future pursuit of accountability and justice.
    So what country will have access to any evidence that has been
    obtained and stored by OSCE and how can we facilitate greater
    cooperation around access to crucial data? What are things that
    we can be doing?
        Mr. Carpenter. So with regards to the first invocation of
    the Moscow Mechanism, the fact-finding mission that produced
    that first report, they have clearly Stated; and it is in
    writing in the report, that they intend to share their evidence
    that they have collected with any respected international--
    basically with any international accountability mechanism.
        If there is a path that they see that will bring
    individuals to justice, they are prepared to share the
    information that they have collected. In fact, much of it is
    already public in the report, but they have committed to doing
    so. And I imagine that if there is a second invocation
    similarly it will make that evidence available to whoever is
    able to do justice for these crimes, for the victims.
        And then finally, the same is true of the Office of
    Democratic Institutions and Human Rights which will make that
    evidence all publicly available. I have heard that it is going
    to be digitized and therefore searchable by others, and I hope
    that is the case.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
        I see that the chairman is back, and so I will yield back
    to Mr. Keating.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
        I now recognize for 5 minutes Representative Meuser.
        Mr. Meuser. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you very much, Ambassador. So I think it is--I
    think all of us on this committee, most of the world see Putin
    as a war criminal. So I will start my questioning with this,
    Ambassador: What would be the--and pardon me if it has already
    been discussed, but has Putin been notified or his staff
    notified at this point that he has engaged in war crimes?
        Mr. Carpenter. So, representative, I think one of the big
    questions that we have is how much information is actually
    getting to Mr. Putin. I think there is a lot of questions about
    whether he is fully understanding how--not only how his troops
    have failed in the field; for example in the northern suburbs
    of Kiev, but also the degree to which they are perpetrating
    atrocities. I think that is an open question.
        However, there is very clear evidence in the simple fact
    that President Putin has bestowed one of the highest honors
    that can be bestowed on a Russian unit; the honor is called the
    Status of Guards, on the specific unit that we believe was
    involved, or at least some of whose members were involved in
    the atrocities in Bucha. And so the fact that so soon--as we
    are still in the midst of this conflict, so soon after the
    perpetration of those atrocities that this particular unit
    would be singled out by the Kremlin with this reward suggests
    that there is some knowledge and in fact tacit public
    acknowledgement of what they are doing.
        Mr. Meuser. OK. So you currently continue to build
    evidence. And are we providing that evidence to those who will
    engage in the procedures of criminalizing Putin's actions?
        Mr. Carpenter. So as I Stated earlier, Congressman, the
    accountability that has been pursued via the OSCE through the
    Moscow Mechanism, that information will be available to all
    international accountability mechanisms including the ICC that
    intend to bring cases. And both the experts who fielded that
    fact-finding mission, but also the participating States who
    invoked it; and there were 45 of us, so 44 others, plus the
    United States, have all said that every individual at every
    level of the chain of command must be held accountable. And so
    there is broad unanimity that that is the way forward.
        Mr. Meuser. What is China's--representatives of the CCP,
    the People's Republic of China--what has been their position? I
    know they apparently are favorable or at least neutral on this
    invasion and on Putin, but is there any information that you
    are receiving that they also appreciate and understand that he
    is committing war crimes?
        Mr. Carpenter. So the PRC is not a member or a partner of
    the OSCE. We have 56 other participating States and 10 partners
    including Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Afghanistan,
    and the Indo-Pacific, but not the PRC. But to my knowledge they
    have not acknowledged the commission of war crimes by Russian
    forces in Ukraine.
        Mr. Meuser. OK. There have been 46 indicted--war criminals
    indicted by the International Criminal Court. The last was
    Mahamat Said Abdel Kani, a militia commander from the Central
    African Republic. Would the process for criminalizing that
    individual be the same as you are going to proceed for Vladimir
    Putin? Is it a similar model?
        Mr. Carpenter. So that is a little bit outside my lane
    because that pertains to the ICC, but my understanding is that
    the general process of holding individuals accountable for
    violations of international humanitarian law and international
    human rights law would be analogous to previous cases that have
    been brought.
        Mr. Meuser. Who would have the opportunity to arrest, if
    you will, Vladimir Putin?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, that is obviously a very, very tricky
    question. I think it is hard to envisage that President Putin
    would travel outside of the Russian Federation to a
    jurisdiction where national authorities would choose to
    exercise an arrest warrant, especially so long as he is head of
    State. So it is a conundrum, frankly. But if one looks at the
    long term, there are plenty of examples of former leaders who
    have been held accountable at the end of the day, usually after
    they have fallen from power, for their crimes.
        Mr. Meuser. All right. Thank you.
        I yield back, chairman.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you very much.
        The chair now recognizes Representative Schneider for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Schneider. I was having difficulties.
        Ambassador, can you hear me now?
        Mr. Carpenter. I can hear you, yes.
        Mr. Schneider. OK. I apologize for not being on
    microphones. Anyway, I want to thank you for all of your work,
    but in particular for sharing your work with the committee
    today.
        And I want to thank the chairman for organizing this
    critically important hearing.
        One of the things is you mentioned in the report that it
    covered the first 5 weeks of the war. The war has obviously
    been going on much longer and is likely to continue for a
    extended period of time. And you indicated that the pattern of
    abuse has continued, the pattern of apparent war crimes. Has
    that continued at the same pace as what you were seeing in the
    first 5 weeks or do you think it has expanded dramatically and
    that the pace, scope, breadth, and depth of war crimes is
    increasing?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you for the question. It is hard
    to say because my information is obviously limited, but we
    obviously saw those dramatic and horrifying images from the
    northern suburbs of Kiev where Russian forces retreated and as
    soon as the Ukrainians had access to that land, they found all
    the bodies in the mass graves that indicated that war crimes
    had been committed.
        My understanding based on the utter devastation that has
    been affected upon the city of Mariupol, which was a city with
    a population of some roughly 430,000 people prior to the war,
    and the fact that over 90 percent of the buildings there are
    destroyed in some way, that the atrocities that are likely to
    be discovered once the international community or once Ukraine
    gets access to that city and to that territory are likely to be
    horrendous and just the scale will be immense. So if anything,
    I suspect there may have been an acceleration of these forms of
    atrocities.
        Mr. Schneider. Yes, I think that is the concern of the
    world. And one of the things--my concern is that the news--
    Ukraine has dominated the news for an extended period now, but
    other things happen around the world. What can OSCE, the United
    States do to help steel the resolve of the international
    community to make sure as you are collecting this data and
    evidence of war crimes that we are going to signal to the
    Russians that they are not going to outlast us and we will hold
    them to account, not just for actions for the first 5 weeks, or
    for 3 months, or the war, but throughout their campaign?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so thank you so much for that question
    because that is what we are trying to do every week here at the
    OSCE. We have the Permanent Council, which is the equivalent of
    the U.N. Security Council for the OSCE where all 57
    participating States sit at the table. And each and every week
    I specifically talk about Russian atrocities in Ukraine and I
    try to bring them to light and I try to also impress upon my
    counterparts around the table the extent to which we are
    witnessing something that we have--the scale and scope of which
    and the barbarity of which we have not seen since really the
    Second World War, although to a certain extent we saw some of
    this in the 1990's in the Former Yugoslavia or in Rwanda. And
    my colleagues, especially from our allies and like-minded
    partners, are making the same case each and every week.
        So the Russian representative, the Russian ambassador is
    hearing this every week. And he is isolated with the one
    exception of Belarus. Russia and Belarus are completely
    isolated at the OSCE because all other States--some are silent
    and do not speak, but all those who do speak condemn these
    atrocities in no uncertain terms and demand accountability.
        Mr. Schneider. Thank you. I think it is important that we
    continue to condemn these atrocities and hold all of our allies
    strongly together on this.
        It is not just the violent crimes we are seeing like in
    Mariupol and other places. Russia is weaponizing its energy
    supplies and threatening Europe. I had a meeting yesterday with
    the Prime Minister of Bulgaria, one of the countries where
    Russia has specifically targeted.
        My question, specific to Bulgaria, but also more broadly,
    is what can the OSCE do to help dampen the threat and diminish
    the challenge to member States from Russia's illegal use of
    food and oil, but in particular oil and gas, as a weapon?
        Mr. Carpenter. Thank you for the question. So of course
    Russia has used energy as a tool of political coercion for
    decades, using its--the power of its pipelines and the fact
    that so many countries in particularly Eastern Europe, but some
    in the Balkans and Western Europe, are dependent to a large
    degree on Russian hydrocarbons.
        While this is within the OSCE mandate, the OSCE is probably
    not the lead organization that is looking at this issue. But I
    can say as a representative of the United States that--I mean
    this is something that we have been talking to our partners and
    allies about for a long time. And where we have supported the
    construction of the infrastructure in Europe to include, for
    example floating LNG terminals, inter-connector pipelines
    particularly on the north-south axis, that would enable reverse
    flows and enable some of the countries that are so dependent,
    sometimes 80, 90, even 100 percent dependent on Russian gas to
    wean themselves off of that dependency and to use other sources
    and other transport routes.
        And so our Energy Bureau at the State Department has been
    heavily involved with this and will continue to be because now
    is the moment where I think some of those allies that perhaps
    knew this was a problem--now it is really hitting home that
    this is existential.
        Mr. Schneider. Thank you. And I am not sure how much time I
    have left, but I would like to yield what time I do have to
    spare to my colleague Abigail Spanberger from Virginia.
        Chairman Keating. The chair recognizes Representative
    Spanberger, and she will now chair just until I commit the--
    finish this vote and come back.
        Ms. Spanberger. Thank you so much. And again, Mr.
    Ambassador, thank you for your patience as we continue to make
    sure that we are getting all of our votes in in this 23-vote
    series while also ensuring that we can ask many questions given
    your expertise.
        So I want to do a little bit more followup on a line of
    questioning that I was going down before related to social
    media companies, related to the challenges that we face in
    terms of when they are pulling down disinformation and what
    might potentially be evidence of war crimes.
        Some of my colleagues--and certainly in the first round of
    questions we have talked about how there are some pros and cons
    obviously to modern technology, and social media more
    specifically when it comes to documenting war crimes. And when
    we look at Russia, we have really seen a professionalization of
    disinformation, false narratives, certainly we saw that the
    U.S. intelligence community had released information before
    Russia even invaded to speak to the fact that there was an
    intent to potentially release a doctored video that could be
    cause or an excuse for an alternate Russian invasion.
        And so when we are looking at how the Russians in
    particular obscure truth, misdirects global attention, and of
    course engage in strong disinformation campaigns, even here,
    where do you think that social media companies might have a
    role in again going back to sort of preserving the evidentiary
    record of war crimes, but of disinformation campaigns that
    frankly could lead us on a path toward war crimes, or the
    responsibilities that they might have to remove or curate
    misinformation and help their users separate actual truth from
    clear lies? And I am thinking about this in the context of
    course as Congress continues to determine what we potentially
    could be doing long term. Your comments on this, sir, would be
    great.
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. So with
    regards to the role of social media companies in curating, as
    you noted, misinformation, that's probability a little bit
    outside my lane, but what I will say is that a lot of these
    social media companies have the big data analytics to be able
    to do investigations and pull the threads on some of the
    evidence that may be coming out of Ukraine by individuals from
    Russia or potentially elsewhere, mercenaries on the ground to
    be able to help identify and then also implicate others.
        And so they have unique capabilities in this regard
    probably matched only by the U.S. Government and a few other
    States, but they can certainly support efforts to identify
    individuals involved in potential war crimes. And we have seen
    NGO's with remarkable capabilities. I am thinking of
    Bellingcat, but there are others: the Atlantic Council's
    Digital Research Lab, amongst others, that have really done
    phenomenal work in pulling the thread on some of these obscure
    social media posts that then have revealed quite a lot about
    what is happening on the ground.
        Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
        And while I could continue asking you questions all
    afternoon, I am going to yield back to the chairman and go vote
    and return. Thank you.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you, vice chairman.
        And I just want to let the Ambassador know (inaudible)
    effort of so many members and the interest in this today given
    the unexpected volume of folks in the middle of this hearing.
    Now I will just recognize myself for a few questions as well.
        You mentioned the systematic nature of things in terms of
    these atrocities and how that can be termed and categorized as
    crimes versus humanity. And you mentioned that it could be--
    then if it qualifies for that, the Russian Federation itself
    can be held accountable. Can you describe how that process
    works and what are the repercussions of the Russian Federation
    being held accountable in that process?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman, for the question.
    Crimes against humanity is one of those terms that is so
    evocative because of recent history of the past century. And so
    when a finding is made by a credible international institution,
    an impartial international institution that crimes against
    humanity were committed, I think that strongly aids the efforts
    to find individuals accountable for violations of the Geneva
    Conventions or other war crimes because it tarnishes the
    reputation of the State essentially forever. I mean, States
    change and government come and go, but that is such a powerful
    tool that I think we should not discount it.
        Of course Russia is a large country with a large military,
    but nevertheless having that designation would be a very
    powerful signal, and especially to those countries on Russia's
    periphery, some of whom are afraid of what the Kremlin might do
    next and therefore reluctant to speak out, but also countries
    elsewhere around the world, some of which are U.S. partners who
    are reluctant to speak out against what Russia is doing. But if
    we had that designation that crimes against humanity had been
    perpetrated, I think that would be very powerful in terms of
    rallying our international allies and partners together.
        Chairman Keating. And you also mentioned, too, in your
    testimony how different leaders--these are civic leaders,
    mayors, activists at the local level, and religious leaders you
    mentioned, too, and we noticed the support for this war on
    behalf of the Russian Orthodox leader himself.
        So could you tell us, if you could, what religious leaders
    have been targeted for these atrocities as well or put into
    filtration camps or faced any other kind of Russian action?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman. So in the city of
    Kharkiv, which is one of the largest Russian-speaking cities in
    the world, which has suffered so much from Russian aerial and
    missile bombardment over the course of the last 10 weeks, we
    have seen that the--one of the major Orthodox churches there
    has been hit with a strike. I believe the synagogue, or it may
    be more than one, has been targeted with a strike. And the
    mosque in that city has also been targeted with a strike.
        So again, Russia is--the scale of the devastation is such
    that is affecting many different faith communities across
    Ukraine, which of course is a very diverse and multiethnic
    society. But we have also received reports that some priests,
    including Orthodox priests, are indeed subject to these
    filtration camps. Again, there we have less information, but I
    think as more comes to light we will learn that many indeed
    religious figures have been detained by Russian forces in
    Ukraine.
        Chairman Keating. And given some of the rhetoric that has
    come out of the Russian Federation in terms of the
    justification for the war and some of the religious tenets that
    some of the Russian Orthodox leaders have done in terms of
    attacking the LGBTQ community, have you found any evidence to
    date that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by the Russians
    with some of these atrocities or if they are placing them in
    detention or filtration camps?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, we did have information prior to
    February 24 and we assessed that the LGBTQ community would be
    potentially targeted by Russian forces following an invasion.
    Now the members of the community are not always very visible
    for obvious reasons. They are worried about their safety. And
    so we have limited information. But unfortunately we do have
    some reports that some of the sexually based violence which has
    been perpetrated against both women and men has also been
    perpetrated against members of that community.
        Chairman Keating. And does that include boys and children
    as well? That is my understanding.
        Mr. Carpenter. Indeed, yes, there are reports.
        Chairman Keating. Just looking at a parallel for Russian
    activity, too, I believe you are aware of their actions in
    Syria where they targeted health care facilities and did these
    civilian targets, but I recall in Syria just the targeting of
    hospitals and medical facilities, how significant that was and
    extensive. Can you comment on the parallels that might be there
    in Ukraine as well?
        Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, of course it is very difficult
    to prove at this stage of the war that certain facilities were
    deliberately targeted. Nevertheless, despite the high bar for
    making that determination the Moscow Mechanism report that I
    referenced in my introductory statement did find that that
    Mariupol Children's and Maternity Hospital was in fact
    deliberately targeted by Russian forces.
        And in the days following the strike Foreign Minister
    Lavrov of Russia said that it was a legitimate target because
    he believed that there were--I forget if he used the term Neo-
    Nazis or Nationalists because Russian officials use those terms
    interchangeably, but that they were hiding supposedly,
    allegedly in the basement of that hospital. And subsequent to
    that of course; and the OSCE experts determined this, there is
    absolutely no credibility to that claim whatsoever. There were
    indeed women and children in that hospitals, hundreds of them,
    who suffered horribly as a result of that strike.
        Chairman Keating. And also I think to help summarize some
    of this, the strategic failure of the Russians and the
    frustration, although we did see these war crimes at the outset
    of this, but are they indicative and can you comment on really
    the strategic failure thus far of this Russian effort?
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes. So it appears that, from the planning
    at least, that the Russian forces were intent on a shock and
    awe campaign that would have decapitated the Ukrainian
    government in Kiev in short order, in a matter perhaps even of
    days and that they were so confident that they would be greeted
    by some of the local residents across Ukraine when they marched
    in that their planning in terms of, for example the amounts of
    food that they brought with them was wholly insufficient for
    the operation. Of course they failed. They lost the battle of
    Kiev. The Ukrainians won. They pushed them back across the
    border.
        But the Russians have a numeric superiority over the
    Ukrainian army, both in terms of troops, but also in terms of
    tanks, in terms of aircraft, ships, rocket launchers, missiles,
    all of that. And so now that the Russians forces have regrouped
    and reattacked in the south and east, the Ukrainians are going
    to face and are facing a very, very stiff battle and a huge
    challenge to their sovereignty.
        But so far yes, the Russian operation has been--has not
    achieved President Putin's aims, which were to subordinate
    Ukraine to Russian control.
        Chairman Keating. I think to myself with so many people
    that their actions clearly are indicative of a State-sponsored
    terrorism. And there is much discussion about that issue, but
    one of the things I see now and am learning about; perhaps you
    could help us, is indeed that designation at this juncture
    could actually limit some of our options. Are you familiar with
    how that could actually limit at this juncture some of our
    options?
        Mr. Carpenter. Well, so I answered this question, chairman,
    with regards to one of your colleagues on the subcommittee. You
    may have been voting at the time. So my understanding is that
    in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and
    violations of international humanitarian law and human rights
    law, which are matters of international law, the designation of
    a State as a State-sponsored terrorism is something that is
    done by the United States under domestic statute and so not be
    pursued at the OSCE together with other allies are partners. It
    would be a determination made by the legal advisor at the State
    Department based upon a careful review of the definition that
    is contained in that statute.
        Now I am not an international lawyer, so I won't comment on
    it, but I will----
        Chairman Keating. Ambassador, I think you helped explain
    this.
        Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
        Chairman Keating. I think there is perhaps less flexibility
    and certainly less impact going our own domestic law, not that
    that cannot be done in future, but it might inhibit or go in a
    different direction than our international efforts with our
    international allies. I think that is something we are looking
    at as we look at that issue as well.
        And last, there has been much talk already about the use of
    energy and how brutally that is being done and what is the
    impact of what they are doing on food supplies. I honestly
    believe the amount of casualties as a result of Russia's
    action, limiting food supplies, which they are well aware of,
    may result in more deaths than the war itself as things spread
    into the fall and this becomes more acute.
        I do not know if you wanted to comment on the devastating
    effects of Putin's actions on our--the food supply of the
    world. Forty percent of fertilizers come from Belarus and
    Russia, and indeed Ukraine and Russia are the breadbasket of
    much of the world. This could indeed be one of the greatest
    evil actions of Putin of all. Could you comment on that?
        Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, I think Russia's actions to
    blockade Ukraine's ports both in the Sea of Azov and the Black
    Sea are having a devastating impact on global food security and
    the blame has to be place squarely at Russia's feet because it
    is the one that is preventing these foodstuffs from getting out
    to markets around the world.
        Ukraine is the No. 1 global producer of sunflower oil. They
    produce a lot of wheat. They produce a lot of other grains. As
    you mentioned, chair, they are considered one of the major
    breadbaskets in the world. And their harvests are sitting in
    storage facilities across Ukraine and are not getting out from
    those ports like Mariupol, or Berdiansk, or Odessa because
    Russian forces, and specifically the Black Sea fleet, is
    blocking any ship, whether it is a State-owned vessel or a
    commercial vessel, from leaving any of those ports. And so a
    lot of that grain and those oils are being--are trapped there
    in Ukraine as a result of this war.
        Chairman Keating. And I have one more comment and I might
    have turn it over to vote before we conclude, but it is the
    issue that people should be aware of I think in terms of the
    oil and gas imports with Europe. If that was an immediate
    shutdown--this is something I understand has to be calibrated.
    If it was an immediate effort to shut that down, that could
    affect supply and actually in a short term give Putin more
    profit right now for his war efforts. Is that your
    understanding?
        Mr. Carpenter. That is indeed my understanding and I
    believe that European Union leaders including Ursula von der
    Leyen and council president Charles Michel have said that when
    they look at measures to impose costs on Russia, we would have
    to be cognizant that we--that they not hurt their own economies
    more than they hurt Russia's. And so that should be an
    operating principle going forward.
        Chairman Keating. Thank you for that. I just want to thank
    you for--and I want to thank the vice chair for getting through
    this. It is so important and it is extraordinary the bipartisan
    participation we had in the midst of this. It is highly unusual
    and it really goes to how important this is. I want to thank
    you and I want to ask you if we can continue. We want to
    continue on this issue with war crimes as it--on a continuing
    basis. And thank you for your cooperation.
        And with that, members will have 5 days to submit
    statements or extraneous material, any questions for the record
    subject to the length and limitation of the rules.
        I want to thank again all the members.
        And I want to thank you, Ambassador, for your service to
    our country and for taking this issue one particularly. It is
    something we want to join you in your efforts as Members of
    Congress.
        With that, I will call this hearing adjourned. Thank you
    again.
        [Whereupon, at 3:41 p.m, the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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