    [House Hearing, 117 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

     AN UNENDING CRISIS: ESSENTIAL STEPS TO REDUCING GUN VIOLENCE AND MASS
                                   SHOOTINGS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
                             AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                             THURSDAY, MAY 20, 2021

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 117-23

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov

                               ______

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
     46-141               WASHINGTON : 2021

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JERROLD NADLER, New York, Chair
                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania, Vice-Chair

    ZOE LOFGREN, California              JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Ranking Member
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,      DARRELL ISSA, California
        Georgia                          KEN BUCK, Colorado
    THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida          MATT GAETZ, Florida
    KAREN BASS, California               MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana
    HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York         ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
    DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island     TOM McCLINTOCK, California
    ERIC SWALWELL, California            W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
    TED LIEU, California                 TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin
    JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland               THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky
    PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington          CHIP ROY, Texas
    VAL BUTLER DEMINGS, Florida          DAN BISHOP, North Carolina
    J. LUIS CORREA, California           MICHELLE FISCHBACH, Minnesota
    MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania       VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
    SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas              SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
    JOE NEGUSE, Colorado                 CLIFF BENTZ, OREGON
    LUCY McBATH, Georgia                 BURGESS OWENS, Utah
    GREG STANTON, Arizona
    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
    MONDAIRE JONES, New York
    DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
    CORI BUSH, Missouri

           PERRY APELBAUM, Majority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                   CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Minority Staff Director
                                     ------

            SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                     SHEILA JACKSON LEE, California, Chair
                        CORI BUSH, Missouri, Vice-Chair

    KAREN BASS, California               ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Ranking
    VAL DEMINGS, Florida                     Member
    LUCY McBATH, Georgia                 STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania         LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania       W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
    DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island        TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin
    TED LIEU, California                 THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky
    LOU CORREA, California               VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas              SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               BURGESS OWENS, Utah

                       JOE GRAUPENSPERGER, Chief Counsel
                        JASON CERVENAK, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                             Thursday, May 20, 2021

                                                                       Page

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Chair of the Subcommittee on
      Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Texas     2
    The Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on
      Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of
      Arizona........................................................     4
    The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Chair of the Committee on the
      Judiciary from the State of New York...........................     6
    The Honorable Jim Jordan, Ranking Member of the Committee on the
      Judiciary from the State of Ohio...............................    13

                                   WITNESSES

    The Honorable Vikki Goodwin, Member of the House of
      Representatives, State of Texas
      Oral Testimony.................................................    15
      Prepared Statement.............................................    18
    Fred Guttenberg, Author and Gun Safety Advocate
      Oral Testimony.................................................    21
      Prepared Statement.............................................    23
    Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project
      Oral Testimony.................................................    26
      Prepared Statement.............................................    28
    Michael E. Grady, Senior Pastor, Prince of Peace Christian
      Fellowship
      Oral Testimony.................................................    41
      Prepared Statement.............................................    43
    J. Adam Skaggs, Chief Counsel and Policy Director, Giffords Law
      Center to Prevent Gun Violence
      Oral Testimony.................................................    46
      Prepared Statement.............................................    48

               STATEMENTS, LETTERS, MATERIALS, ARTICLES SUBMITTED

    A letter from Linda Beigel Schulman, submitted by the Honorable
      Jerrold Nadler, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary from
      the State of New York for the record...........................    10
    An article entitled ``Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths,
      Suicides, and Crime,'' The Journal of Law and Economics,
      submitted by the Honorable Thomas Massie, a Member of the
      Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from
      the State of Kentucky for the record...........................    78
    An article entitled ``Gun massacres fell during the assault
      weapons ban,'' Washington Post, submitted by the Honorable
      David Cicilline, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime,
      Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Rhode Island
      for the record.................................................   108
    An article entitled ``Fact check: AR-15 style rifles used in 11
      mass shootings since 2012,'' USA Today, submitted by the
      Honorable David Cicilline, a Member of the Subcommittee on
      Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Rhode
      Island for the record..........................................   112
    Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member
      of the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
      from the State of Arizona for the record
      An article entitled ``In These 11 Cases, a Firearm Saved the
        Owner or Others,'' May 11th, 2021............................   124
      An article entitled ``These 11 Incidents Underscore Outrage of
        Biden's Slap in Face to Gun Owners,'' April 15th, 2021.......   128
      An article entitled ``These 11 Examples of Defensive Gun Use
        Undermine Push for More Gun Control,'' March 10th, 2021......   132
      An article entitled ``11 Times a Gun Stopped Matters From
        Getting Worse,'' February 17th, 2021.........................   136
      An article entitled ``Undetectable Firearms,'' NSSF Fast Fact..   140
      An article entitled ``Another Ban on `High-Capacity'
        Magazines?'' NSSF Fast Fact..................................   144
      An article entitled ``That Time The CDC Asked About Defensive
        Gun Uses,'' April 30, 2018...................................   146
    Items submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Chair of the
      Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from
      State of Texas for the record
      Statement from Moms Demand Action..............................   156
      A study entitled ``Majority of Americans, Including Gun Owners,
        Support a Variety of Gun Policies,'' John Hopkins............   162

                                    APPENDIX

    Items submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member of
      the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
      State from the State of Arizona for the record
      An article entitled ``Priorities for Research to Reduce the
        Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,'' (Uncorrected Proofs),
        The National Academies Press.................................   168
      Statement from American College of Physicians (ACP)............   282
      Congressional statement from Suzanna Gratia Hupp, submitted by
        Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project.......................   286
      Senate statement from Suzanna Gratia Hupp, DC, submitted by
        Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project.......................   290
      An article entitled ``Forum: Doing Less Harm,'' Harvard
        Magazine.....................................................   294

                      AN UNENDING CRISIS: ESSENTIAL STEPS

                          TO REDUCING GUN VIOLENCE AND

                                 MASS SHOOTINGS

                                  ----------

                             Thursday, May 20, 2021

                            House of Representatives

                       Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,

                             and Homeland Security

                           Committee on the Judiciary

                                 Washington, DC

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:13 a.m., in
    Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Sheila Jackson
    Lee [chair of the subcommittee] presiding.
        Members present: Representatives Nadler, Jackson Lee,
    Demings, McBath, Dean, Scanlon, Cicilline, Escobar, Cohen,
    Jordan, Biggs, Chabot, Gohmert, Steube, Tiffany, Massie,
    Spartz, and Owens.
        Staff present: David Greengrass, Senior Counsel; John Doty,
    Senior Advisor; Moh Sharma, Member Services and Outreach
    Advisor; Cierra Fontenot, Chief Clerk; John Williams,
    Parliamentarian; Ben Hernandez-Stern, Counsel; Joe
    Graupensperger, Chief Counsel; Veronica Eligan, Legislative
    Aide/Professional Staff Member; Jason Cervenak, Minority Chief
    Counsel for Crime; Ken David, Minority Counsel; Andrea Woodard,
    Minority Professional Staff Member; and Kiley Bidelman,
    Minority Clerk.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The Subcommittee will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recesses
    of the Subcommittee at any time.
        We welcome everyone to this morning's hearing, ``An
    Unending Crisis: Essential Steps to Reducing Gun Violence and
    Mass Shootings.''
        Before we begin, I would like to remind Members that we
    have established an email address and distributions list
    dedicated to circulating exhibits, motions, or other written
    materials that Members might want to offer as part of our
    hearing today. If you would like to submit materials, please
    send them to the email address that has been previously
    distributed to your offices and we will circulate the materials
    to Members and staff as quickly as we can.
        I would also ask all Members to mute your microphones when
    you are not speaking. This will help prevent feedback and other
    technical issues. You may unmute yourself any time you seek
    recognition and as well when you are speaking you may not have
    your mask.
        I will now recognize myself for an ongoing of this hearing
    for an opening statement. We are here today on May 20, 2021
    when throughout America, states have rates of death by guns of
    12, 15, 22 percent of our population. America still remains as
    a battlefront of guns.
        The State of Texas, the governor just signed a permitless
    law that anyone without the permission of that business, that
    church, that doctor's office, that school, at least perceived
    by the public, whatever fine points have been made, the public
    doesn't read it. They just say it is a free for all. In the
    backdrop of the tragedy of El Paso, 22 of our fellow Texans
    were killed because someone said they didn't like Mexicans.
        So, today, the Subcommittee turns to the all-too-
    commonplace tragedy that is gun violence. The time since our
    Committee last held a hearing focused on gun violence, many
    more Americans' lives have been heartbreakingly and
    unnecessarily lost to gunfire. Current circumstances have
    exacerbated the problem. During the pandemic gun sales have
    surged, with more children at home with firearms that have not
    been properly secured.
        As late or as many years back, I served on the Houston City
    Council. The first gun law they ever past were the requirement
    that parents would be responsible for securing their guns
    because two-year-olds were being shot by guns that they found
    in the home.
        On top of these frightening dynamics, there have been an
    uptick in firearm-fueled violent crime that has left families
    and communities torn and afraid. Statistics are sobering. On
    average, 316 people are shot every day with over 100 killed and
    64 dying by suicide. What about a city that lives through
    drive-by shootings, rage on the road? They don't wave their
    fists. They shoot out the window. They shoot seven-year-olds,
    two-year-olds, elderly persons, mothers, fathers, and families.
        While official numbers have not been compiled, once they
    found a gun homicide, the non-suicide related shooting took
    approximately 19,000 lives, a 25 percent increase from 2019.
    Texas had over 3,000 deaths.
        The same study on gun deaths estimates that likely exceeded
    40,000. This grim number would mean that 2020 had the highest
    rate of gun deaths in the last two decades. Each one of these
    deaths leaves a hole in the fabric of their family and
    community, and particularly our children.
        As with so many other tragedies, children often bear the
    brunt of gun violence. On a daily basis, eight children are
    victims of family fire due to an improperly stored or misused
    gun in their home.
        Today, guns account for half of all suicide deaths. That
    should appall us so much. In the majority of children's gun
    suicides, the guns were stored in the child's place of
    residence or the residence of a relative or friend. Yes, child
    suicides were done.
        We cannot allow this to continue in our country. That is
    why safe storage of guns is critical to our public safety and
    why I introduced the Kimberly Vaughan Firearm Safe Storage Act.
    My bill would regulate the proper storage of firearms and
    ammunition for residences with children under the age of 18 or
    a residence with a person who is ineligible to own a firearm. I
    hope Members will join me and cosponsor this live-saving
    legislation, and I hope Members from both sides of the aisle.
        I also hope that Members of this Committee will answer
    President Biden's call to address community violence through
    intervention and help infrastructure investment. We are
    delighted that this Congress voted to allow the Centers for
    Disease Control to establish gun violence as a national health
    issue.
        We must pursue creative solutions to the problem of gun
    violence on our streets and in our neighborhoods and in every
    part of this country in all too frequent basis. Another threat
    to our communities that we will discuss today is ghost guns.
    Ghost guns are firearms constructed with component parts that
    can be obtained anonymously without a background check and lack
    serial numbers. Ghost guns are essentially untraceable. The
    absence of a manufacturing record, serial number, or background
    check is essentially exactly what makes them the perfect guns
    to commit crimes. These weapons, ghost guns, pose a new and
    growing threat to the safety of our brave men and women of law
    enforcement.
        I didn't State earlier that the Texas law enforcement were
    against permitless guns. I think if you are for law
    enforcement, you have to be for law enforcement.
        Increasingly gangs, drug dealers, and other nefarious
    individuals are assembling their own untraceable firearms for
    their illicit activity. In 2020 alone, the Los Angeles Police
    Department recovered more than 600 ghost guns, at least 231 of
    which were used in serious or violent crimes such as murder,
    attempted murder, and kidnapping, and 145 of which were
    recovered from felons who are prohibited from owning or
    possessing guns. Ghost guns are a clear and present threat to
    public safety, and it is imperative that we take action now. We
    cannot continue to live in a society where you could be a
    victim to gun violence just by going to the school, the movies,
    the musical festivals, and even grocery shopping.
        I am committed to ending the scourge of gun violence in
    this country and for many who are in this room, some of us were
    here as Columbine hit the Nation and the commitment then was to
    stop gun violence. We must do more to address what is an issue
    of life and death for far too many Americans. We must complete
    this work and we have started on legislation that we know will
    work.
        Therefore, I call on the Senate to now pass the bipartisan
    background check and Charleston loophole bills, passed out of
    this House under the leadership of Chair Nadler. I urge the
    Senate to pass the Violence Against Women Act, which contains a
    provision that would bar the use of a firearm for those who are
    convicted of a misdemeanor stalking. I am glad to co-lead that
    bill as it came out of this committee.
        At the same time, we in the House must consider additional
    legislation to provide commonsense solutions to the scourge of
    gun violence and suicides. That is why our discussion will be
    so important today. This discussion, Members, and I thank you
    for your presence here, should be a call to action and a call
    to do. We must do and we have to do it now.
        I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on these
    critical issues and it certainly is my pleasure now to
    recognize the Ranking Member's opening statement. Mr. Biggs,
    you are recognized for your time.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Good morning.
        Mr. Biggs. Good morning to you. Thank you very much. I
    express my sincerest condolences to those present who have lost
    a loved one to a senseless act of violence.
        I hope today we can have an open and honest dialogue about
    the firearms my colleagues wish to prohibit law-abiding
    Americans from possessing. I hope we can avoid any inaccuracy,
    mischaracterization, and outright falsehoods that have plagued
    this dialogue for decades actually.
        Unfortunately, many in the American public, the media, and
    shockingly, this very body, regularly engage in the peddling of
    inaccuracies. Earlier this year, one member of this Committee
    who is the lead sponsor of the so-called assault weapon ban
    conflated the terms of assault rifle and assault weapon
    multiple times in the Dear Colleague letter seeking support for
    the bill.
        Assault rifles are rapid magazine-fed rifles designed for
    military use. They are shoulder-fired weapons that allow the
    shooter to select between settings semi-automatic and fully
    automatic which allows the operator to hold the trigger as the
    gun fires continuously or in three-shot bursts. Assault rifles
    are subject to regulation under the National Firearms Act and
    as such, they are functionally illegal and rarely used in
    crimes. Assault weapons, on the other hand, have been defined
    in statute and legislation as semi-automatic firearms.
        A year ago, a member of this Committee said just outside
    this hearing room that ``I have held an AR-15 in my hand. I
    wish I hadn't. It is as heavy as ten boxes that you might be
    moving and the bullet that is utilized, a .50 caliber, these
    kinds of bullets need to be licensed and do not need to be on
    the street.'' An AR-15 weighs between 6 and 7 pounds and fires
    a .223 or a 9-millimeter round of ammunition. It does not fire
    a .50 caliber ammunition.
        I would hope that these inaccuracies are just a case of
    Members not taking the time to educate themselves on these
    issues. I would note, however, the push to ban so-called
    assault weapons was borne of the idea to mislead Americans. In
    1988, the Violence Policy Center released a study entitled
    ``Assault Weapons and Accessories in America.'' In it, they
    state, ``Assault weapons, just like armor-piercing bullets,
    machine guns, and plastic firearms are a new topic. The
    weapon's menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion
    over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault
    weapons, anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to
    be a machine gun can only increase the chance of public support
    for restrictions on these weapons.''
        Let's look at the statistics. In 2019, according to the
    FBI, there were 364 murders committed with all rifles, not just
    those deemed to be some assault weapons. By comparison, knives
    or other cutting instruments were used in 1,476 murders. Blunt
    objects such as clubs, hammers, and bats were used in 397
    murders. Hands and feet were used in 600 murders.
        The fact is that so-called assault weapons and high-
    capacity magazines have been used often in self-defense
    situations. The Supreme Court of the United States has
    recognized the right to self-defense. In the District of
    Columbia v. Heller, the court ruled that the inherent right of
    self-defense has been central to the Second amendment right
    which is the individualized right to possess and carry weapons
    in case of confrontation, including all instruments that
    constitute bearable arms.
        Steven Willeford and his AR-15 helped stop the deadliest
    mass shooting in Texas history in 2017. Mr. Willeford was able
    to confront and shoot Devin Kelley who had just fatally shot 26
    people in the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs,
    Texas. After Mr. Willeford pursued and shot Kelley, Kelley
    ended up taking his own life. Mr. Willeford likely prevented
    further casualties and was hailed a hero by local law
    enforcement.
        Similarly, high-capacity magazines have played a role in
    self-defense. On April 15, 2018, a Glen St. Mary, Florida
    resident awoke at 4 a.m. to a home invasion that was motivated
    by an apparent Facebook dispute. Seven masked and armed
    individuals forced their way into a mobile home where one of
    the residents was armed with an AR-15. According to reports,
    the resident fired more than 30 rounds during the event which
    resulted in one home invader being killed, and others being
    wounded. These are just two of many examples of Americans
    exercising their constitutional rights to self-defense with
    assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.
        Further, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act,
    Congress required the Justice Department to examine the effects
    of the assault weapons ban. The mandated study of the federal
    assault weapon and high-capacity ban concluded that ``the
    banned guns were never used in more than a modest fraction of
    all guns murders'' before the ban. The ban's ten round limit on
    new magazines was not a factor in multiple-victim or multiple-
    wound crimes.
        A follow-up study in 2004 concluded that so-called assault
    weapons and high-capacity magazines were used in only a
    minority of gun crimes prior to the 1994 federal ban.
    Relatively few attacks involved more than ten shots fired and
    the ban's effects on gun violence are likely to be small at
    best and perhaps too small for a reliable measurement.
        Democrats would also like to implement red flags in the
    laws, known as extreme risk protection orders which allow law
    enforcement, family Members, or others with close relationships
    to the individual to petition a State court to temporarily
    remove firearms from the individual who they believe to present
    a danger to themselves or others. These laws trample on an
    individual's due process and Second amendment rights because
    they permit the seizure of an individual's firearm or
    ammunition before the individual is given an opportunity to be
    heard in court.
        Typically, to deny a fundamental constitutional right, an
    individual must be afforded notice and an opportunity to be
    heard and present evidence. What other constitutional rights
    are my Democrat colleagues willing to take away without due
    process? I urge my colleagues to learn more about the rights
    they are seeking to abridge.
        Finally, let's look at the Biden's Administration nominee
    to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and
    Explosives, David Chipman. Since Mr. Chipman left ATF in 2012,
    he has made his money lobbying for failed gun control polices,
    first for Michael Bloomberg, and then for the Giffords Law
    Center. While at ATF, then Agent Chipman was the case agent for
    the Branch Davidian trial according to his biography that he
    submitted to this Committee last Congress.
        As I am sure everyone knows, 76 men, women, and children
    were killed in that botched raid. Years later, while pushing
    for more gun control, Mr. Chipman allegedly claimed, falsely
    claimed that Branch Davidian shot down two Texas Air National
    Guard helicopters with .50 caliber rounds during the 51-day
    siege. In two reports, one issued jointly by this Committee and
    the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, and one
    issued solely by the Committee on Government Reform and
    Oversight, there is no mention of a single helicopter being
    downed.
        In the report to the Deputy Attorney General on the events
    at Waco, Texas, there is no mention of a helicopter being
    downed by any gunfire. It appears Mr. Chipman pulled this story
    out of thin air to justify gun control. The job of the ATF
    director is to enforce the laws Congress passes, this body
    passes, not from failed gun policies.
        Madam Chair, I do have a number of articles that I will
    submit into the record, but I don't want to further delay the
    start of this, so I am going to wait until the end, if that is
    all right with you, and I think it would be more convenient.
        With all due respect to you and your position as Chair of
    this Subcommittee and understanding that you are given wide
    latitude and I respect that latitude in our rules, I regret,
    however, to report that I have noticed a startling propensity
    for the Chair to take time after many of my Republican
    colleagues, a period of questioning and occasionally after the
    witnesses as well. I realize that you do have that great
    latitude that are given in the rules, but out of fairness, I
    request that if you do take that privilege that perhaps you
    would grant the member equal time for rebuttal or clarification
    related to the comments you make, or grant me time to comment
    on the statements and questions that are made by Democrats as
    well.
        With that, I do look forward to hearing from our witnesses
    today, a robust debate, and with that Madam Chair, I yield
    back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Will the gentleman yield?
        Mr. Biggs. Yes, I will yield to you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentleman for his inquiry and
    his comment. It is the prerogative of the Chair which I will
    continue with discretion to utilize, but as you recall in the
    last hearing we allowed you to have a response and I will
    continue to do so. Absolute inaccuracies sometimes require for
    a correction of the record, but the ranking will have an
    opportunity appropriately if that occurs to make a
    clarification as well. I thank you so very much for your
    generosity and your interest in this hearing and this topic.
        Mr. Biggs. Yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. It is now my
    pleasure to recognize the Chair of the Judiciary Committee, Mr.
    Nadler, for his opening statement.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you very much. I thank Chair Jackson
    Lee for convening this hearing. I thank the witnesses for being
    here to inform this Committee on how we can develop additional
    solutions to promote firearm safety.
        For well over a year now, America has grappled with two
    public health crises, the COVID-19 pandemic, and an epidemic of
    gun violence. No place is immune from the effects of gun
    violence including our homes, streets, schools, and even our
    places of worship. The uncertainty of the pandemic has driven
    thousands of Americans to gun stores with record numbers of
    first-time buyers bringing firearms into their homes.
        The FBI background check system has been overwhelmed by the
    demand, delaying investigations, and resulting in potentially
    hundreds of thousands of people buying firearms without a
    completed background check. While every Nation has struggled
    with the effects of the pandemic, only one, United States, has
    had such an accompanying surge of gun violence.
        Even before COVID-19, a country-to-country comparison of
    gun violence was shocking. A recent study in the American
    Journal of Medicine found that compared to 29 other high-income
    countries, the gun related murder rate in the United States is
    25 times higher. Even when you adjust for population
    differences, Americans are disproportionately killed by gun
    violence.
        One of the critical differences, of course, is that other
    countries have stronger gun safety laws. The House has already
    passed two sensible firearm measures: Congressman Mike
    Thompson's bipartisan background check bill, and Majority Whip
    Clyburn's bill to help close the Charleston loophole. The House
    has done its part. Now, it's time for Senate Republicans to
    allow these bills to pass so that they may become law.
        Today, I hope this panel will examine another reasonable
    measure to prevent gun violence, extreme risk protection
    orders, or ERPOs. These laws allow law enforcement and
    depending on the jurisdiction, family Members, health
    professionals, and school administrators, to ask the court to
    prevent the person who is at risk of violence to self or to
    others from purchasing or possessing firearms. In ERPO
    hearings, law enforcement and family Members provide evidence
    in an ex parte proceeding during which a neutral federal judge
    weighs on whether a threat is imminent. Only if a finding of
    danger is made is a firearm owner temporarily deprived of their
    firearm.
        In California, one study found that extreme risk protection
    orders were issued in 21 instances where there is concern of a
    mass casualty event. These orders may have saved many lives.
        After Connecticut enacted an extreme risk protection order
    law, the State saw a 14 percent reduction in its firearm
    suicide rate. Indiana saw a seven and a half percent reduction
    in suicides in the ten years after it enacted its ERPO law. The
    data supports the expansion of ERPOs. We must take up
    legislation on the federal level and pass it now.
        Another item I hope the witnesses will discuss is ghost
    guns. These weapons are kits that are up to 80 percent
    complete, that can be finished at home. Sold as a do-it-
    yourself project, ghost guns do not currently have serial
    numbers or require a background check. Over the last three
    years, ghost guns have flooded the streets and now they are the
    plurality of guns involving crimes in some jurisdictions.
    Because ghost guns do not have serial numbers, they are
    difficult to trace and make solving crime extremely
    challenging.
        The legislature in my home State of New York is in the
    midst of taking affirmative steps to address the proliferation
    of ghost guns. Just this week, the New York legislature is
    considering the Scott J. Beigel Unfinished Receiver Act which
    would make it a felony to own or possess unfinished receivers
    or ghost guns. This legislation has already passed the State
    Senate and the governor is expected to sign it. I support this
    effort and I hope that Congress can quickly move to address on
    a federal level the dangers that ghost guns present.
        Another urgent issue that we must address is the deadly
    toll of assault-style weapons. These firearms are designed
    specifically for offensive operations, killing the most people
    in the shortest period of time possible, which is why they are
    the weapon of choice for those perpetrating the highest
    casualty mass shootings. The list goes on and on: Sandy Hook,
    Las Vegas, El Paso, Dayton, Sutherland Springs, Aurora,
    Orlando, Parkland, and most recently, Boulder. Hundreds of
    lives ended by individual shooters with assault weapons with
    friends and family left to grieve and pick up the pieces.
    Victims of mass shootings and everyday gun violence alike have
    tried and failed to hold gun makers and distributors
    accountable in court.
        The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, the PLCAA,
    which was the top legislative priority to corporate gun
    industry, has allowed the gun industry to evade fundamental
    civil justice and accountability at the expense of victims of
    gun violence. We must repeal PLCAA's sweeping immunity from
    civil liability for the gun industry which must be held to
    account for negligent conduct, defective products, and
    otherwise irresponsible behavior. I ask you, what other
    industry in the United States enjoys sweeping immunity for
    civil liability for its negligent acts?
        As we consider these and other issues related to our crisis
    of gun violence, I thank the witnesses for coming today and
    again, I express my gratitude to Chair Sheila Jackson Lee for
    convening this hearing.
        Before I yield back, I ask for unanimous consent for a
    letter from Linda Beigel Schulman, a leading gun safety
    prevention advocate in my home State of New York, describing
    efforts in New York to address the proliferation of ghost guns
    to be entered into the record.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, Mr. Chair, so ordered.
        [The information follows:]

                  MR. NADLER FOR THE RECORD

    ======================================================================

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair Nadler. Thank you. I yield back the balance of my
    time.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. All right, thank you so very much for your
    testimony. I now recognize the distinguished Ranking Member of
    the Full Committee, the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Jordan, for
    his opening statement.
        Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank our
    witnesses for being here today and I, too, extend my
    condolences to the families of those who have lost loved ones.
        Think about what the Democrats want to do.
        Step one, defund the police. Democrats here in Congress and
    Democrat mayors around the country demonizing, demoralizing our
    law enforcement officers, and actually defunding police to the
    tune of over a billion dollars last year in all our major
    cities. What is the result of that? Crime is up in every major
    city.
        Step two, release violent offenders from our prisons. Last
    year, Chair Nadler introduced a bill to pay states and
    localities to empty their prisons and jails. The bill calls for
    the release of violent offenders from State prisons and local
    jails. Inmates were only deemed ineligible for release if they
    did ``not pose a risk of serious imminent injury to a
    reasonably-identified person.'' In other words, it was okay to
    release inmates as long as they didn't pose an immediate risk
    to a specific individual.
        Now, step three, now the third part. Take away guns from
    law-abiding Americans so they can't defend themselves. This
    hearing today and the numbers bills introduced by our Democrat
    colleagues make clear that they want to disarm law-abiding
    Americans by depriving them of their constitutional rights and
    none of these bills would have actually prevented any recent
    mass shooting.
        The Chair of the Full Committee just said in California, I
    think he said 21 cases where they had extreme protection orders
    where they took someone's firearms from them. He said that may
    have prevented crime. May have. We don't know. What we do know
    is 21 citizens were denied their Second Amendment liberties by
    a proceeding where they couldn't even attend because that is
    what these red-flag laws, these extreme protection orders do.
        The model legislation that Chair is talking about pays
    states to set up a system where anyone can go to a court and
    say I don't think so and so should have a firearm. There is a
    hearing where so and so, the one accused, the one who is going
    to lose their firearm, they don't even get to show up to the ex
    parte hearing. They don't even get to show up. Then they take
    their firearm and then they have to go to court to get their
    right back even though there was no proceeding where they could
    attend in the first place.
        The standard for all this is lower, a lower standard, a
    reasonable standard. This is a dangerous path they want to go
    down. So, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses,
    particularly the Republican witness. I am nervous about all the
    legislation being talked about on the other side. I hope we
    understand that the Second amendment is right next to the First
    because it is pretty darn important. Madam Chair, I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman yields back. I thank him for
    his opening statement.
        We welcome all of our distinguished witnesses, and we thank
    them for their participation. I will begin by swearing in our
    witnesses. I ask our witnesses to turn on their audio and make
    sure I can see your face and raise your hand. Those who are in
    the room, please stand and raise your right hand.
        Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the
    testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best
    of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
        I can hear the audio. Can I hear the audio of witnesses?
    Thank you so very much. You may be seated.
        Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the
    affirmative. Thank you.
        We will now proceed with witness introductions. It really
    is my privilege to introduce an outstanding legislator and
    someone who has impacted my community, even though she
    represents Austin because she has a strong and committed
    reputation for protecting the people of Texas.
        Representative Vikki Goodwin represents Texas House
    District 47 in the western and far south Travis County. That
    means she has some of Austin, Texas.
        Many people know of the great tech revolution in Austin.
    She was a co-author of landmark school finance reform which
    probably gives her a great sense of protecting children in the
    schoolhouse, as well as the law boosting retired teacher pay.
    Representative Goodwin is also a small business owner, a real
    estate broker, a mother, a graduate of the University of Texas,
    and she herself has confronted the evils of what a gun can do.
    I thank you so very much for being here today. Welcome.
        Fred Guttenberg, an author, and gun safety advocate. His
    14-year-old daughter, Jamie Guttenberg, was killed in the
    Stoneman Douglas High School shooting on February 14, 2018. His
    son, Jesse, was also a student at the school, ran from the
    shooting to meet him at a nearby store. In addition to his
    activism, he is a small businessman in Parkland, Florida. I
    will personally thank him in his loss for what he has continued
    to do for this nation. That should be part of your portfolio
    that you are, in fact, fighting for the survival of our nation.
    Thank you for being here today.
        Dianna Muller is a two-time national 3-gun champion and
    professional shooter. She is a retired 22-year veteran of the
    Tulsa Police Department, serving assignments in narcotics,
    gangs, street crimes, and patrol. She is also a law enforcement
    firearms instructor, a member of the NRA law enforcement
    Committee and a Subcommittee member of the Department of the
    Interior Hunting and Shooting Sports Conservation Council. Ms.
    Muller is the founder of the DC Project. Thank you for being
    here.
        Now, it is my privilege to be able to turn to my colleague
    from Texas, who herself has spent time as a new member in the
    midst of tragedy in her city of El Paso Texas, and I want to
    give her the privilege of introducing her constituent, Pastor
    Michael E. Grady.
        I yield to Congresswoman Escobar at this time.
        Ms. Escobar. Madam Chair, thank you so much. I am so
    grateful to be able to have the honor this morning to introduce
    my constituent, Pastor Michael Grady. Pastor Grady is a faith
    leader in El Paso at the Prince of Peace Christian Fellowship
    Church. His daughter, Michelle, was shot multiple times during
    the horrific El Paso terror attack in August 2019. Michelle
    survived, thank God, and spent 55 days in the hospital
    recovering. Since the incident, Pastor Grady has met with
    several people in his congregation who have also been affected
    by gun violence and he has been an important voice on this and
    a number of other significant national issues.
        Pastor Grady, thank you for being here.
        Madam Chair, I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. May I remind the
    gentleman, Congressman Massie, that in this room you must wear
    your masks, and thank you so very much for your courtesies of
    doing that. We appreciate that very much. Anyone else, you can
    remove your mask when you are speaking. Thank you so very much.
    I will get ready to speak, so I will remove this mask as I'm
    putting it back on.
        We have the privilege of having J. Adam Skaggs, and he has
    been just an established expert on really the responses to all
    of those who say why. He has been able to give us a credible
    and detailed response of why not. He does that, I know, because
    he is associated with our beloved colleague's law center, the
    Giffords Law Center. He is a Chief Counsel and Policy Director.
        Previously, he was Senior Counsel at Everytown for Gun
    Safety and at the Brennan Center for Justice, where he worked
    on election law issues.
        Mr. Skaggs, if you don't mind me at least taking note of
    Gabby Giffords and what her giant story has been able to do in
    setting up this law center, being a truth teller on gun
    violence and guns in America. You yourself was also a
    Litigation Associate at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton &
    Garrison, and a law clerk at the 11th Circuit in the U.S.
    District Court in the Eastern District of New York. We welcome
    you.
        Please note that each of your written testimony statements
    will be entered into the record in its entirety. Let me say
    that votes have been called, but there are two votes. We're
    going to take one or two witnesses, and then recess Members so
    that we can vote in a recess and vote for the second vote and
    come back as quickly as possible. We may get through two
    witnesses. Staff is now trying to determine.
        Accordingly, I ask that you summarize your testimony in
    five minutes. There is a timer in the Zoom view that should be
    viable on your screen. Representative Goodwin, you may begin.
    Thank you again for being here. Welcome.

                STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE VIKKI GOODWIN

        Ms. Goodwin. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee and Ranking
    Member Biggs.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. If you can turn your sound up, please. Can
    you turn your sound up?
        Ms. Goodwin. Is that better?
        Ms. Jackson Lee. A little better, thank you.
        Ms. Goodwin. Okay. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking
    Member Biggs, Chair Nadler, and Ranking Member Jordan. Thank
    you for the opportunity to testify before the Crime, Terrorism,
    and Homeland Security Subcommittee.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Would you suspend. Just suspend. We're
    trying to work on your sound here for a minute.
        Ms. Goodwin. Okay.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you, just a moment. Are we turned--
    or should we? We'll just do one witness, Members, so please.
    Are we turning her back to five? Pardon me? All right.
        Representative, can you continue please, and thank you.
    Apologize for the technical.
        Ms. Goodwin. No problem. Again, thank you again, my name is
    Vikki Goodwin. I represent Texas House District 47.
        Firearm safety issues are deeply personal to me and are a
    focus of my legislative work. I am a gun violence survivor.
    When I was in my early twenties, my father was shot and killed
    in our home in Dallas. My father's death profoundly impacted me
    and gives me a tremendous empathy for others who have lost
    loved ones to gun violence.
        Over the years, my sense of grief and sorrow has turned to
    a personal passion to work for my community and State on gun
    safety issues. I believe that the voices of gun violence
    victims and their families must be heard in the halls of power.
        I joined the Texas House Homeland Security and Public
    Safety Committee, which hears legislation on gun laws, so I can
    amplify the voices of victims and promote change. As a
    Committee member, I've had the opportunity in recent months to
    weigh in on a dangerous piece of legislation in Texas, House
    Bill 1927.
        The bill would permit people to carry concealed, loaded
    weapons in public spaces without passing any background or
    training requirement. Passage of this bill will significantly
    weaken protections and safeguards that are currently in place
    to protect communities from gun violence.
        Texas's firearm safety laws are already some of the weakest
    in the country. Texas' existing framework is already full of
    loopholes and encourages gun trafficking across State lines and
    into Mexico. At present, existing State law requires people to
    pass a background check and complete a basic safety training
    course to be licensed to carry loaded handguns in public
    places.
        House Bill 1927 will do away with that requirement.
    Alarmingly, Texas does not universally require people to pass a
    background check to purchase firearms. Legislation I filed this
    session attempted to close loopholes in the background check
    system, whether someone is purchasing guns at gun shows,
    online, or through other means.
        My background check bills did not make it out of committee.
    On the other hand, House Bill 1927 is on its way to becoming
    law, and it will make it impossible for our law enforcement to
    know if people carrying guns on our streets are in legal
    possession or not.
        It will make it easier for people who can't currently pass
    background checks to carry a firearm, including those with
    violent criminal histories or those suffering from chemical
    dependencies.
        The research is clear that flooding public spaces with more
    hidden loaded guns in more hands makes our communities less
    safe. A good guy with a gun rarely saves the day. More often,
    the gun that is intended to protect one from danger ends up
    doing just the opposite.
        Contrary to the notion that flooding our communities with
    guns will somehow reduce gun violence, a considerable body of
    study, of research, shows that states that have enacted
    permitless carry legislation are experiencing significant
    increases in gun violence.
        States that have weakened law enforcement authority to deny
    permits to people who might pose a danger to the public have
    seen an 11% increase in homicide rates and a 13-15% increase in
    violent crime rates.
        In 2003, Alaska became the first State to enact permitless
    carry legislation. Since then, the State has seen the rate of
    aggravated assaults with a gun increase by 65%. In Arizona,
    where the legislature enacted permitless carry in 2010, the
    rate of aggravated assault with a gun has increased by eight
    percent, translating to 921 more gun-related aggravated
    assaults per year.
        Here in Texas, we have experienced numerous horrific gun-
    related tragedies. Most recently, there was a shooting in the
    Midland-Odessa communities in which a gunman drove through
    those two towns shooting innocent victims.
        In our Committee we heard testimony about one of the
    victims, a man in his early twenties, who was shopping for a
    car with his family. They watched as he was gunned down by a
    man who had previously failed a background check but was later
    able to obtain a gun.
        Prior to that, a gunman drove across the State from Allen
    to El Paso to shoot innocent victims at a Walmart store.
    Immediately following the El Paso shooting, the Governor held a
    roundtable discussion bringing together stakeholders to discuss
    safety measures.
        Yet here we are in Texas, this legislative session, not
    passing laws to make us safer, but instead passing a law that
    will allow people to carry guns without any safety training or
    permit.
        Like all of you, I am responsible for protecting my
    constituents and ensuring the safety of my community, which is
    what brings me here today. House Bill 1927 poses a significant
    threat to the lives of well-being of Texans. If enacted, we can
    expect more gun violence, not less.
        As a legislator, I see our role as saving lives and
    preventing deaths. I hope today's hearing puts us all one step
    closer to fulfilling that goal. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Goodwin follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady's testimony was powerful.
    I'm going to ask our Members to indulge us, and I want to ask
    the Members as I recess, let me just thank Members Karen Bass,
    Val Demings, Lucy McBath, Madeleine Dean, Mary Gay Scanlon,
    Cori Bush, David Cicilline, Ted Lieu, Lou Correa, Veronica
    Escobar, and Steve Cohen, who I hope will return. We'll recess
    for the vote.
        To the panelists, if you could reserve and we will call to
    order in just a few minutes. This is in recess; the Committee
    is in recess.
        [Recess.]
        Ms. Jackson Lee. We'll call this hearing to order again. It
    is entitled An Unending Crisis: Essential Steps to Reducing Gun
    Violence and Mass Shootings.
        As I begin to call on the other witnesses, I just want to
    take note of the fact of the introductions that many of these
    witnesses have experienced their own personal stories of gun
    violence. I want to say to them that they have our concern and
    our hearts focused on their loss.
        The next witness knows that loss all too personally. I
    indicated earlier as I introduced him that he has taken that to
    serve America.
        Mr. Guttenberg, you are yielded to at this time for five
    minutes. Thank you.

                      STATEMENT OF FRED GUTTENBERG

        Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you. Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking
    Member Biggs, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank
    you for inviting me to testify today. My name is Fred
    Guttenberg, I am a father of two amazing children, Jesse and
    Jamie.
        On February 14, 2018, my daughter Jamie was murdered
    alongside 13 other children and three adults at Marjorie
    Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. My son
    Jesse, now 20, lives with the permanent scars of having heard
    his sister get shot.
        I am a father who lives with the sound of that single shot
    severing my daughter's spinal cord. I am a father who hopes his
    daughter died instantly. Otherwise, it means she suffered.
        My daughter will be 14 forever. My wife and I watched as
    all the other kids post pictures of going to prom and college
    acceptances this year. We are happy for them, but we break down
    and cry because Jamie should be with them.
        I have been told, even by some here this morning, that I
    hate the Second amendment and that I am a gun-grabber. Nothing
    could be further from the truth. I simply want to save lives.
        My daughter was killed in a mass shooting, the kind we have
    seen over and over again in elementary schools, middle schools,
    high schools, colleges, concerts, movie theaters, grocery
    stores, bars, businesses, and the list goes on where a shooter
    is armed with an assault weapon and a large capacity magazine.
    These are weapons of war designed to kill as many people as
    possible as fast as possible. That's why they become the weapon
    of choice for mass murderers.
        Congress must take action to ban assault weapons and large
    capacity magazines, which have killed thousands of innocent
    Americans. Mass shootings like the one where my daughter was
    murdered get a lot of attention. They account for just a small
    percentage of American gun violence.
        Forty thousand people die every year, that's over 100 a day
    in incidents of domestic and community violence, hate crimes,
    suicide, and unintentional shootings all across the country. In
    fact, in the time that it takes me to read this statement,
    somebody's getting shot right now.
        My friends Kristin and Mike Song know all too well the
    tragic consequences of what happens when a firearm is not
    safety stored. In 2018 their son Ethan, just 15, was
    unintentionally shot and killed after accessing an unsecured
    gun in a neighbor's house. This is not an anomaly in America.
    Every day eight children and teens are unintentionally shot by
    unsecured, loaded firearms found in a home.
        It's estimated that 4.6 million children live in homes with
    at least one unsecured gun. No one should know the pain of
    losing a child to a gun. We can and we must do better.
        I've been partnering with Brady, one of the nation's older
    gun violence prevention organizations, and they have led the
    End Family Fire Program, a national education campaign by gun
    owners for gun owners on the importance of safe storage. Family
    fire is a shooting involving an improperly stored or misused
    gun found in the home, and it's one of the biggest contributors
    to gun deaths every year.
        Safe firearm storage provides a lifesaving barrier between
    children or those in crisis from accessing guns, significantly
    decreasing the risk of family fire.
        Congress does have policy options for increasing safe
    storage, something which the vast majority of responsible gun
    owners already agree is important. Researchers have found that
    even a modest intervention that motivates gun owners to safely
    store guns could reduce youth firearm deaths by a third.
        For instance, Congress could pass legislation creating tax
    incentives to promote safe storage, like the Prevent Family
    Fire Act, which had broad bipartisan support last year.
    Congress can also take steps to educate the public more broadly
    about the benefits and the best practices of safe storage and
    could even require gun dealers to post that information when
    they sell guns.
        Ethan's Law, named in honor of Ethan Song, would create a
    legal obligation to safely store a firearm if a minor might
    have access to it. Had this commonsense law been in place in
    2018, Ethan's life could have been spared. I am grateful for my
    dear friends Kristin and Mike, but I truly wish I never knew
    them.
        These policies would have a measurable impact on people's
    lives. There is more that Congress can do to protect public
    safety. This body has now twice passed legislation to expand
    and strengthen background checks for gun sales.
        Also, and very near to my heart, Congress should expand
    background checks to cover ammunition sales. Jamie's Law, named
    in honor of my daughter, would do just that.
        It's not acceptable that so many lives are lost to gun
    violence in this country, and it doesn't have to be this way. I
    urge you all to take action to save lives. I am grateful for
    the opportunity to testify today before you, and I look forward
    to your questions. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Gutterberg follows:]

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        Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Gutterberg, thank you so very much for
    being willing to be here today.
        Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Our sympathies again to you and your
    friends.
        Now, I'm happy to yield five minutes to Ms. Muller. You are
    recognized for five minutes. Thank you.

                       STATEMENT OF DIANNA MULLER

        Ms. Muller. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking Member
    Biggs, and Committee Members. I'm honored to be here today to
    discuss this important topic and brainstorm on strategies to
    save lives.
        For decades now, the conversation seems to only lead to gun
    control advocates pushing for more laws and more restrictions.
    It's time to look at the evidence, acknowledge the truth, and
    consider alternatives.
        The truth is we all want the same thing. We all want to be
    safe, and we want our families to be safe. The difference is
    how we believe that is achieved.
        For over 30 years, the strictest gun control policies have
    been adopted by several major cities across the country. Based
    on decades of evidence in cities like St. Louis and Chicago and
    many more, it's apparent that these policies do not work. The
    results are the same.
        When average citizens are less capable of defending
    themselves, criminals are emboldened, crime soars, and
    communities are less safe. As a retired police officer, I saw
    firsthand the impact of violence on communities. I can tell you
    that buzzwords like epidemic, ghost guns, weapons of war, or
    assault weapon are designed to push false narratives and are
    designed to scare the public.
        We always hear about commonsense gun control. Common sense
    is that cities plagued with violence should adopt the laws of
    cities that are not plagued with violence. Common sense is not
    making more rules, more laws, registrations, and fees that make
    protecting yourself a rich man's game.
        Gun control law disproportionately affect lower income
    minority communities. Gun control is steeped in racism. Common
    sense is making mental health a priority when 55% of deaths are
    suicide. Common sense is holding criminals accountable for
    breaking the law instead of releasing them from jail, raising
    bail for them, or encouraging them to be more confrontational.
        Many Americans are exhausted by the incessant attacks on
    our Second amendment rights. I founded the DC Project Women for
    Gun Rights because we were tired of listening to women who do
    not represent us, women who are not experts in firearms or in
    violence. Yet, they demand that legislators restrict our
    constitutional and civil rights.
        I am honored to speak on behalf of the Members of DC's
    Projects, mothers, daughters, young and old, Black, White,
    Latina, Asian, hunters, competitors, transgender, straight,
    #MeToo, #NotMe, on the political left and right. The Second
    amendment wins on the intersectionality scale.
        There are women in our group that have endured unspeakable
    violence. Lucretia lost her son to gang violence. Melissa was
    stabbed 17 times, raped, beat, and left for dead in her
    parents' home in a stranger invasion. Nikki saw her husband
    shot and killed by her stalker in a gun-free zone, which is
    where 95% of mass killings occur. All these women are
    intimately familiar with the failures of gun control.
        The year 2020 brought us a pandemic, riots, looting,
    killing, and an effort to defund the police. Crime is soaring
    in those cities. Americans are realizing that they are their
    own first responder, which is why we're seeing record gun sales
    and an estimated 8.4 million first-time purchasers.
        I will also add that the Second amendment wasn't written
    about hunting. It was written about we, the people, and a
    tyrannical government. The question before us is how do we
    reduce violence in our country? There are details and links in
    my written testimony, but these are a few programs that have
    had successful results.
        The hunter's education program has exponentially lowered
    firearms-related incidents and fatalities. The KidSafe
    Foundation takes the target audience a step further and focuses
    on all children, not just hunters. Zero firearms accidents are
    the only acceptable goal. Hold My Guns is a suicide prevention
    program that respects civil rights.
        All these are community-based, grassroots programs that are
    geared toward safety. Instead of exploiting tragedy and pushing
    pain to push agenda--a gun control agenda, let's work in a
    nonpartisan way to expand programs and deliver measurable
    results.
        The DC Project women are available to resource to all of
    you. We will meet, talk, train, and whatever we can do to
    achieve safety in our communities through education, not
    legislation.
        Thank you for the opportunity to speak, and I look forward
    to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Muller follows:],

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thanks to Ms. Muller for her testimony,
    and I'm delighted to yield five minutes to Mr. Skaggs. Excuse
    me, Mr. Skaggs, it's Pastor Grady. I had checked him off, but
    he is not checked off. Pastor Grady, are you there?
        Mr. Grady. Yes, I am, madam.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. You're unmuted, thank you. I'm yielding to
    you at this time. Thank you.

                     STATEMENT OF MICHAEL E. GRADY

        Mr. Grady. Thank you again, Madam Chair and Members of the
    Committee, for the opportunity to share my story with you on
    today.
        My name is Michael Grady, and over the course of my life
    I've been blessed to hold several titles. I am the Pastor of
    the Prince of Peace Christian Fellowship Church in El Paso,
    Texas. Over two decades, I served in the chaplaincy of the
    United States Army. For the past 40-years plus, I've been
    married to my wife, Jeneverlyn, and we have three wonderful
    daughters.
        I'm here today, though, because of what happened on August
    3, 2019. On that morning, I was at home while my wife and
    daughter were at a shopping center just a few minutes away from
    our home. At 10:45 a.m., time seemingly came to a halt when I
    received a panicked call from my wife telling me to come to
    Walmart because my daughter Michelle, our middle daughter, had
    been shot three times.
        Shot three times? My daughter? It was as if my wife was
    speaking a foreign language because the words did not
    immediately register. How could Michelle have been shot?
    Serving over 20 years in the Army only to find my daughter to
    be shot in our own community seemed to me incomprehensible.
        I snapped out of disbelief and immediately jumped in the
    car with my daughter Jacqulyn. When we arrived, our
    neighborhood shopping center looked more like a war zone you
    should see on the evening news. We ran past people who appeared
    to have already lost their lives, desperately searching for
    Michelle while fearing the worst.
        Finally, we came upon my wife and Michelle, who was shot
    three times and in critical condition. She was rushed to the
    hospital. Thank God she survived. My daughter is as strong and
    resilient as anyone. She still walks with a cane, and every day
    she deals with the trauma of that experience.
        Unfortunately, though, 23 other people did not make it.
    When I think about that day and the aftermath, I think about
    choices initially. I thought about the shooter's choices, his
    choice to buy a gun. His choice to get in a car. His choice to
    murder people because of the color of their skin and their
    country of origin. All the chances he had to turn around, but
    he chose not to.
        Now, I think about the uplifting choices that others have
    made since that day. Through my work as the Chair of the local
    chapter of the Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice and my
    ministry, I've met countless people affected by gun violence,
    most incidents that never make the headlines. They've chosen to
    share their stories and relive their trauma in hopes that it
    will compel our elected officials to take action.
        What I endured, survived, and witnessed on August 3, 2019
    occurs too often in our nation. Just 13 hours after my daughter
    was shot, another mass shooting occurred in Dayton, Ohio. That
    same weekend in Chicago, 40 people were shot, three fatally, in
    a series of shootings.
        Gun violence destroys families and communities every single
    day in this country. This violence though is not inevitable.
    Action can be taken to give community relief from this epidemic
    of violence. Policy makers can take action to pass common sense
    measures to prevent these tragedies like universal background
    checks to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not
    have them, extreme risk laws to give family Members and law
    enforcement officers the chance to prevent someone showing
    signs of dangerous behavior or suicidal issues from possession
    or purchasing firearms. Better regulations of assault weapons,
    large capacity weapons that are often used in mass shootings,
    and legislation to make sure that people convicted of hate
    crimes cannot access firearms.
        Gun violence shouldn't be a common experience in our
    communities all over America. Passing gun safety laws like the
    ones I mentioned above will prevent families from losing loved
    ones or enduring the physical and psychological trauma of a
    gunshot injury.
        Now today, I think about the choices before this Congress.
    I hope that you will choose to pass common sense gun laws, make
    investments in communities that will save lives and reduce the
    chances that another family will go through what mine has.
        Thank you and I yield my time.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Grady follows:]

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        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the witness for his powerful
    testimony. Now, it is time to recognize Mr. Skaggs for five
    minutes. Thank you very much.

                      STATEMENT OF J. ADAM SKAGGS

        Mr. Skaggs. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking Member
    Biggs, Members of the Committee for the opportunity to
    testimony. I am Adam Skaggs, Chief Counsel and Policy Director
    at Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.
        In 2020, America suffered not only from COVID-19, but from
    a gun violence crisis that surged in all its forms. Only five
    months into this year, we have already had more than 100 mass
    shootings. We have seen significant spikes in gun homicides,
    especially in communities of color, increases in gun suicides,
    and escalating domestic violence. We cannot allow this violence
    to continue for the next generation.
        I commend the House for its passage of several important
    gun safety bills, including H.R. 8 which closes glaring
    loopholes in the background check system; H.R. 1446 which
    provides more time for the FBI to complete background checks;
    and H.R. 1620 which closes loopholes that allow abusive dating
    partners and convicted stalkers to access firearms.
        I would also like to address additional reforms that would
    make a critical difference and are a crucial part of a public
    health approach that is focused on prevention, is proportional
    to the seriousness of the issue, and is firmly grounded in data
    and research.
        First, extreme risk protection orders, or ERPOs, often
    after mass shootings, we learn that law enforcement or family
    Members saw serious warning signs before any violence occurred.
    When someone poses a threat to themself or others, extreme risk
    laws provide a way to intervene. If and only if a court finds
    credible evidence they pose a serious risk of harming themself
    or others, a means to temporarily remove guns and prevent them
    buying new guns. Studies prove that ERPO laws are effective at
    preventing suicides and have prevented mass shootings.
        While 19 states and the District have these laws, Congress
    should support other states' efforts to pass and implement them
    and Congress should prioritize Congresswoman McBath's H.R. 2377
    to create an extreme risk process in the federal courts.
        Next, I want to address homemade, untraceable firearms, so
    called ghost guns, that leverage a misinterpretation of federal
    law to allow people who would fail a background check to easily
    access guns. Ghost guns include weapons made with 3D printers
    and guns assembled from kits that include unfinished parts.
    They lack serial numbers and are therefore untraceable by law
    enforcement, making them the weapons of choice for criminal gun
    traffickers responsible for a growing share of crime guns.
        Fortunately, ATF has proposed a Rule ensuring that the key
    parts of ghost guns, frames, and receivers, are properly
    treated as firearms. Several bills introduced this year would
    also address ghost guns including H.R. 3088 introduced by
    Congressman Cicilline, Congresswoman Dean's H.R. 1447, and
    Representative Deutch's bill to prohibit the online
    distribution of code for 3D-printed guns.
        Turning now to the threat posed by unsecured guns in homes,
    research has shown that there is an increased risk of suicide,
    unintentional injury, and death for children when guns are not
    stored safely. Simple practices to safely secure guns can mean
    the difference between life and death for kids and with 4.6
    million American children living in homes with loaded, unlocked
    guns, it is critical that Congress takes action.
        We are grateful to Chair Jackson Lee and Congresswoman
    DeLauro for their leadership on this issue. Their bills would
    encourage gun owners to Act responsibly. We also need laws that
    will encourage the gun industry to do the same.
        The gun law to convince Congress to pass the Protection of
    Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, or PLCAA, gives manufacturers and
    sellers of guns unprecedented immunity from lawsuits. PLCAA has
    slammed the courthouse door shut for the thousands of gun
    violence victims whose deaths and injuries could have been
    prevented if the gun industry behaved in a more responsible
    manner. This Congress has the chance to right this wrong and
    should repeat PLCAA by passing legislation like H.R. 2814 from
    Congressman Schiff.
        Finally, while we should treat the gun industry the same
    way that we treat other industries, not all guns are created
    equal. Semi-automatic assault rifles offer a particularly
    lethal combination, rifle ammunition capable of penetrating
    bullet-proof vests and detachable magazines that can hold as
    many as 100 rounds. This lethality has made them the weapon of
    choice for mass shooters, and we are glad that the Hon.
    Cicilline has reintroduced his bill, H.R. 1808, to restrict
    access to these devices.
        While we often hear about mass shootings committed with
    assault rifles, the gun industry is now manufacturing AR-15
    style handguns that fire the same rounds. They pose a serious
    risk to law enforcement because they fire rifle ammunition that
    can penetrate body armor, but they are small enough to conceal.
    They were used to perpetrate mass shootings in Boulder and
    Dayton, Ohio and Congress must ensure these dangerous weapons
    are properly regulated. I thank the Hon. Demings for
    introducing H.R. 2466 which would do so.
        Thank you again, Madam Chair, and I look forward to taking
    your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Skaggs follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much. This has been a very
    important set of statements that I believe are reflective of
    the concern of Americans. With the witnesses finishing their
    testimony, I will now proceed under the five-minute Rule with
    questions, and I will begin by recognizing myself for five
    minutes.
        First, I think it is important to note that I have not been
    able to find any member of Congress that has used the killing
    of a loved one of their constituents, the witnesses, as a
    narrative to enact what some may perceive as gun laws adverse
    to a small percentage of Americans, since over 80-90 percent of
    Americans believe in gun safety. I think the record should be
    clear on that.
        Let me quickly go to Mr. Guttenberg for his take on where
    we are today. I am short on time, so I will quickly pose my two
    questions together.
        You spoke of the few friends who suffered because of lack
    of gun storage. We know that in the Sandy Hook tragedy, though
    guns were stored, they were accessible, and tragically babies
    lost their life. If you can speak to that and then as well, the
    idea of family fire combined together where children are
    harmed. I know that you are well aware of those of us who
    believe in banning the assault weapon and appreciate Mr.
    Cicilline and continue to push for that.
        Mr. Guttenberg.
        Mr. Guttenberg. Well, thank you. You just highlighted some
    examples. We do know exactly what happened. We know why those
    shootings happened. Where we are today is sitting in a hearing
    where there is a lot of people in this room who don't want to
    acknowledge the facts that we know about what happened.
        Listen, you can be a Second amendment advocate and want to
    save lives. Okay? Just so everyone in this room knows, my
    father-in-law owns guns. My son has been shooting with him. My
    best friend is a law enforcement officer who actually is the
    one who identified my daughter's dead body. Okay?
        So, when I listen to this room and I hear all of these
    examples of reasons why some people refuse to take any action
    to save lives, it is infuriating because while we are here,
    like I said in my opening statement, someone is getting shot
    and we know the reasons why and we know it is going to happen
    again because we continue to not take action. No, there is--
    listen, nobody is talking about anything other than steps to
    predictably save lives, background checks, the end family fire
    program, and safe storage.
        In 2005, you did pass a bill which required safe storage
    devices go out with handguns. You know what, we should extend
    that. This isn't rocket science, saving lives.
        I just want to let everyone know; my daughter had rights.
    My daughter had rights to grow up, live, and maybe be a Second
    amendment activist. My daughter had a right to go to school,
    college, get married, and make me a grandparent. That is never
    going to happen. The more we sit around here having BS
    arguments, the more you are going to be hearing conversations
    like this.
        Let's do this. We should be working together to save lives,
    and honestly, I hope we do. Thank you.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. I hope I can encourage Mr.
    Biggs to support the storage bill.
        Let me go to Representative Goodwin, we know that the bill
    that I spoke of earlier passed the Senate and the House in the
    State of Texas, but we know that it is in the hard work of
    those of you in the House. It is now in conference, but I
    thought it was important to bring national attention to this
    bill.
        Will you tell us more about that Texas House Bill 1927 and
    the implications of that bill in the midst of your personal
    story, but more importantly, what you did on that bill today?
    Thank you.
        Ms. Goodwin. Thank you, absolutely. So, House Bill 1927
    essentially will let people walk around on our Texas streets
    without getting training and we have heard from law
    enforcement, they came out and held a press conference on the
    capitol steps saying that they are not in favor of this law.
    They like people getting training if they are going to own and
    possess a gun.
        One of the things that I did add to the bill, a lot of the
    argument from the other side was that people like the license
    to carry in Texas. They are still going to get a license to
    carry. While we hope that is the case, I am skeptical and so I
    added an amendment to the bill that will have our Department of
    Public Safety keep a record and provide a report back to the
    legislature of how many people do get a license to carry after
    this bill goes into effect and get the training that they need,
    so they can safely carry their guns.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. This is my final point to you; you believe
    the ultimate passage of a permitless bill can endanger more
    lives in Texas and the nation?
        Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely. I believe more guns on the street
    does not make us safer. I also am very concerned for our
    children and just their mental well-being. We are in Texas
    expanding upon our guardian and marshal programs which allows
    folks to carry guns in our schools and we have these active
    shooter drills that really affect the mental health of our
    students and that is also a very big concern of mine.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much. My time has expired.
        Mr. Chabot, you are recognized for five minutes.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much. Ms. Muller, approximately
    $1.7 billion has been cut from police departments nationwide.
    This comes at a time when violent crime is skyrocketing in
    major cities across the country. Last year, the U.S. saw, in
    fact, over 20,000 murders, the largest number since 1995, and
    that was 4,000 more than the year prior to that. The city that
    I have the honor to represent, City of Cincinnati, we
    experienced the deadliest year that we had seen in its history.
        You are a 22-year police officer, is that--
        Ms. Muller. Retired.
        Mr. Chabot. Retired police officer. What is your reaction
    to the defunding police across the Nation and what impact is
    that having on these skyrocketing rates?
        Ms. Muller. Well, I believe that you could see--well, any
    American can see over the past year of the violence and the
    rioting that it just doesn't make any sense to us. It doesn't
    make any sense to vilify and demonize and undermine the police
    department what you are saying is going to be our savior when
    we give up our firearms.
        Now, we are really understanding that we are our own first
    responders. We are responsible for our own safety. That is why,
    as frustrating as it is for Mr. Guttenberg, I am just as
    frustrated for the exact opposite reasons. It is just
    interesting to hear him say that because I feel the exact same
    way that why are we not working together? Why are we not
    looking at the truths and the evidence that these guns don't
    work. All these places that these--95 percent of these mass
    killings are in gun-free zones. It is a problem. It is not a
    gun problem. It is a gun-free zone problem.
        So, it doesn't make any sense to the average American that
    we would defund the police and push gun control at the same
    time.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you. I would like to read a quote to you
    from a United States Senator on the Senate floor some years
    back. ``During my 12\1/2\ years as a member of this body, I
    have never believed that additional gun control or federal
    registration of guns would reduce crime. I am convinced that a
    criminal who wants a firearm can get one through illegal,
    untraceable, unregistered sources with or without gun
    control.'' That was Senator Joe Biden, by the way, quite some
    time ago. Now, in all fairness, he has changed his mind on a
    whole of things like protecting innocent unborn lives, the most
    vulnerable above us, but I digress.
        The comments that he made back there, do they seem for the
    most part accurate and reasonable?
        Ms. Muller. I agree that they are accurate and reasonable,
    and I included in my written testimony Suzanna Hupp who was in
    a mass shooting, mass killing because I am a shooter. I kind of
    get offended at the shooting part, a mass killing, and she is
    preaching the same thing 30 years ago. She testified. I was
    watching--it is in my written testimony, those links to when
    she was testifying almost 30 years ago. She is speaking the
    truth. She is saying that gun-free zones kill. That magazine
    restrictions are not effective. She was legislated out of the
    right to protect herself. She left her gun somewhere else so
    she wouldn't have it in a gun-free zone.
        She is saying the same thing. The truth remains the same,
    but as you can see, Mr. Biden has changed his position and I
    believe that is because it is not truthful.
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you. I have only got about a minute left,
    so one more thing I would like to ask you. You had, I think, a
    very impactful written statement, opening statement as well.
    The challenge is getting it in five minutes because there was a
    lot in your written statement that you didn't have time to do
    in your oral statement. So, let me ask you this, you had a
    quote in here. It says, ``Gun control laws sound good, but do
    nothing to prevent criminals from committing crimes.''
        Could you kind of expound upon that what you mean by that?
        Ms. Muller. Right. I think we need to hold criminals
    accountable. We have been so soft and bending over backwards to
    let bad people out of jail. You have seen it over the past
    several years, but when people commit crimes, they should be
    held accountable. Instead of continually making more laws, that
    is only going to continue to make more criminals.
        You are legislating me into being a criminal every time you
    want to take away my bump stock or every time you want to take
    away my magazine restriction. Why should the burden be on the
    law abiding? Why can't we hold people that make ghost guns, why
    can't--it is illegal to sell them. Why can't we hold them
    accountable already with the laws that are already in place?
        Mr. Chabot. Thank you. My time has expired, Madam Chair. I
    yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time has expired.
        We now recognize Congresswoman Bass. Ma'am, I am not
    ignoring you. We now recognize Mr. Nadler.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Muller, your statement that the purpose of the Second
    amendment is to prevent government tyranny necessarily means
    that people who think government policies are tyrannical have
    the right to turn their guns on American troops. I find that
    appalling.
        Mr. Skaggs, please describe the impact that the Protection
    of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act is set on the ability of victims
    of gun violence to hold the gun industry accountable and should
    we repeal that law?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, it is essentially taking that ability
    away from them. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act
    provides near blanket immunity to the gun industry. It prevents
    the vast majority of victims of gun violence from suing
    irresponsible actors within the industry, whether it is
    manufacturers or sellers. If you look at the way the civil
    justice system has been used, for instance, with automobiles
    and with tobacco, civil lawsuits against those industries led
    to significant increases in--
        Chair Nadler. We should repeal the law.
        Mr. Skaggs. You should.
        Chair Nadler. Why are assault weapons and concealable
    short-barrel assault rifles and pistols, of the weapons of
    choice for people intending to engage in a mass shooting?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, these are weapons that are designed with
    the specific purpose of being able to fire many rounds in a
    very short period of time and equipped with large-capacity
    magazines like the one that was used in the Dayton shooting
    that held 100 rounds. They can kill a lot of people very
    quickly and that is why mass shooters use them.
        Chair Nadler. What can Congress do to ensure that every
    American has access to an extreme risk protection order to that
    they can intervene when someone they love is in crisis?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, Congress can encourage states to adopt
    these laws. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia have
    done so, but obviously many more haven't. Congress should
    provide incentives for states to do so and to assist with
    implementation. In those states that won't enact these policies
    on their own, Congresswoman McBath's bill would allow federal
    courts to be utilized as kind of a backstop to State action on
    the issue and would allow Americans across the country to
    ensure that they have access to an extreme risk protection
    order.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you. Mr. Guttenberg, I'm so sorry for
    your loss and your advocacy inspires me. What you have
    described seems like responsible gun ownership. Can we really
    legislate that? If so, how?
        Mr. Guttenberg. Well, we can, and we do it by
    acknowledging, I think as you keep saying, truth, and dealing
    with facts. I'll use Cincinnati as an example of where facts
    sometimes maybe get disturbed. Because I testified in Ohio. My
    family lives in Cincinnati. The Congressman is no longer here,
    he knows my family.
        I was in Cincinnati two years ago looking at the spiking
    gun violence in Cincinnati, and the reality is it has an awful
    lot to do with what Ohio has been doing with their loosening of
    gun laws in the state. So yes, we legislate all the time.
    There's a reason why I wear a seatbelt, okay.
        This body can legislate. In 2005, you did on the issue of
    guns. You actually required gun shops to give out a--safety
    locking a mechanism with handguns. That can be extended. This
    body can legislate to save lives, and it is irresponsible if it
    doesn't happen.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you. Pastor Grady, what are the long-
    term impacts on our children and our country if Congress fails
    to effectively address gun violence?
        Mr. Grady. Thank you for asking. I think the long-term
    implication is that our communities feel less safe. Uncertain
    about being able to navigate in a way that produces credibility
    for law enforcement to do their job, and also for citizens to
    feel that they have a vested interest.
        I believe in community-based alignment with law enforcement
    and the community to establish programs, community-based
    violence intervention programs. They've proven to be a good
    track record to measure the effectiveness of really coming
    together and talking about the real issue.
        It is affecting the mental, psychological, and social
    implication that come from the kind of violence that we've seen
    here in El Paso, Texas. We're still reeling from that, but
    we're trying to bring our community together again through
    police accountability, through the larger problem of
    communicating the effectiveness of this program that has been
    proven in several cities across the nation.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you. How as a faith leader have you had
    to address everyday violence in your community and what
    solutions do you see would empower communities to respond to
    gun violence?
        Mr. Grady. Thank you. One of the things that we've
    attempted to do here in the city through the interfaith
    community is to bring, again, the community of faith together
    with law enforcement and citizens, and to disseminate
    information in a way that gives our citizens a feeling of
    safety and a feeling that their needs will be addressed as it
    pertains to how they navigate throughout the city of El Paso.
        The challenge is, again, getting law enforcement to really
    take a commonsense approach to community policing. I grew up in
    the Midwest and there was a time and a season in my life when
    police actually walked the beat, and they had a greater
    relationship with the citizens in the communities in which they
    served.
        So, I think that's part of the answers, moving a productive
    way of community policing, of resourcing our cities, so that
    they will be able to have access to the kind of commonsense
    mental and physical health, occupational apparatuses that will
    help to alleviate some of the struggle that we have in our
    cities.
        Chair Nadler. Thank you, my time is expired. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time is expired. The Chair
    now recognizes Mr. Gohmert from Texas.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Suzanna Hupp can
    be more articulate on this issue.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Reserving my right to object. May I ask
    the gentleman if he gave the majority a 48-hour notice that he
    intended to play the video in accordance with our Committee AV
    protocol?
        Mr. Gohmert. I understood that my staff had, I don't know
    for certain. So, if the gentlelady is saying she's going to
    prohibit that from--
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Absolutely not, I just asked the question.
    So, you don't think you did. If that is the case, these things
    happen and so I'm going to be generous to my fellow Texan,
    Congressman Gohmert, and we'll allow you to, in spite of the
    protocols not being followed, we'll allow you to go ahead and
    play it. Withdraw my objection. So, I yield to you.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much.
        Mr. Cicilline. Point of parliamentary inquiry, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized for
    parliamentary inquiry.
        Mr. Cicilline. My inquiry is your gracious accommodation of
    this I hope will not be read as a signal to violate the rules
    moving forward.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. Hopefully they'll be able to play
    that. There it is.
        [Video played.]
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. Dr. Hupp has been very helpful in
    getting good legislation passed in Texas. Once again, there is
    nobody in here that I know of that is not just heartbroken over
    mass shootings. Once again, I find myself urging what I have
    for years. We ought to have hearings to get to the bottom of
    why people are taking guns and shooting.
        We've had guns throughout our history, modern weapons for
    the times throughout our history. Only in more recent history
    do we have so many mass shootings. I would suggest that one
    place to start, no matter how well intentioned the War on
    Poverty was, the Federal Government started paying people to
    get the father out of the home.
        John Adams said this constitution was intended for a moral
    and religious people. It is absolutely inadequate for any
    other. We need to get two-parent homes, and we need to get back
    to being a moral and religious people. My time's expired, I
    yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentleman for his questioning,
    and I now yield to the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Demings,
    for five minutes.
        Ms. Demings. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Thank you for
    your leadership on this issue. Thank you to all our witnesses
    who are with us today, either virtually or in the room.
        Let me be clear, it's the prevalence of guns in the wrong
    hands, in the hands of criminals, in the hands of the mentally
    ill, and in the hands of terrorists. Guns in those hands is an
    American tragedy.
        As someone who basically dedicated my life, certainly a
    large percentage of it as a law enforcement officer, to
    protecting and serving and saving lives, when we have the power
    to do that, it's not about taking guns out of the hands of law-
    abiding citizens.
        My father was a hunter. I grew up with a, it seems like a
    house full of guns. I carried one for a lot of years. It's
    about keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Not out of the hands
    of law-abiding citizens.
        Look, Pulse nightclub is in my district. Don't ask me not
    to care about the victims of that. Parkland is in my state.
    Don't ask me not to care about the victims in Parkland.
        This week I'm joined by some of you in the room, including
    our distinguished Chair, to introduce new legislation of
    Protecting Our Communities Act to close multiple loopholes in
    federal law that allows guns. Those loopholes that allow guns
    to fall into the wrong hands.
        Ghost guns, are we really here today, are there really some
    people in this room who are defending ghost guns, guns that are
    not traceable? What about armor-piercing concealable, and
    concealable assault weapons?
        These weapons can fire through ballistic vests worn by law
    enforcement officers and can be easily concealed. Are you
    asking me as a former law enforcement officer not to care about
    that?
        Milwaukee Police Officer Matthew Rittner was killed by one
    in 2019. Should we just forget that? The same year a shooter in
    Dayton, Ohio, thank you, Mr. Skaggs, for mentioning that,
    killed nine people and injured 27 others.
        This year in Boulder, Colorado, a man with an AR-15 style
    pistol killed ten, including a responding officer. These
    weapons should be regulated under the National Firearms Act,
    but were specifically designed by gun companies to avoid those
    rules.
        We need to close loopholes in our background checks system,
    taking action to keep guns out of the wrong hands. I say that
    yet again. It's not controversial. The vast majority, because
    we do represent people throughout this nation, the vast
    majority of Americans agree that we should be taking
    straightforward steps to keep guns out of the wrong hands.
        Legislation can help us fulfill that mission. I still want,
    as a Member of Congress, to protect and serve and save lives.
    I'm asking my colleagues to join us in the effort.
        Mr. Skaggs, I really do have a question. You discuss in
    your testimony the proliferation and lethality of armor-
    piercing handguns, weapons that would be regulated under the
    National Firearms Act, both through the Law Enforcement
    Protection Act and the Protect Our Communities Act.
        Can you speak more in detail about why these particular
    weapons and the ammunition they fire are so dangerous to law
    enforcement, and quite frankly to our children, our neighbors,
    our coworkers, our friends, and so many others.
        Mr. Skaggs. Absolutely, thank you, Congresswoman Demings.
    As you pointed out, these weapons fire rifle ammunition that
    can penetrate body armor that is worn by law enforcement for
    self-protection, yet they're concealable, which makes them
    easier to transport.
        It makes them frankly easier to bring into spaces like a
    shopping market, like a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, and
    just commit the horror that occurred there.
        So, these are designed by the industry to circumvent
    regulation under the National Firearms Act, which places
    stronger regulations on short-barreled rifles. The industry has
    attempted to evade that regulation by marketing these as
    assault-style pistols.
        They're dangerous to law enforcement, absolutely. They're
    dangerous to American families and communities as well.
        Ms. Demings. Thank you so much, Mr. Skaggs. Madam Chair, I
    yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her questioning
    and I'm very happy to yield now to the Ranking Member of the
    Subcommittee, Mr. Biggs for five minutes.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair. We've heard a lot, and
    we all want to get to the root cause, I would assume, of what
    causes mass gun violence. I think that we have to put some
    things in context. One of those is we rarely hear about the
    use, the defensive use of guns or the amount of lives guns save
    every single day.
        The CDC estimated between 500,000 to three million per
    year, lives are saved by the use, defensive use of firearms.
        So, Ms. Muller, what do you think these numbers show us
    about how people are using firearms?
        Ms. Muller. Well, the statistics are that there's 40, I
    want to say 46,000 lives taken with guns. Some of that, two-
    thirds, I think it's 55% in 2020, was suicide. There are--it
    gets the number down in the teens that we're talking people
    that would, in your districts, that would meet a gun in a gun
    crime. It considerably lowers that number.
        Now, if you look at the defensive use of firearms, it's
    exponentially higher than those numbers. So, my position is
    that guns save lives exponentially more than they're taking
    unlawfully lives.
        Mr. Biggs. So, Ms. Muller, with relationship to police
    coming in and responding to very dangerous situations, violent
    situations where there's domestic violence, whether it's an
    active shooter, whether it's some other kind of violence that's
    being perpetrated, how long does it usually take?
        I mean, what's the difference vis-a-vis their arrival time
    and their intervention time with those who are armed and can
    defend themselves and know how to use the weapon?
        Ms. Muller. Police response time is, I think there's an
    average of three to five minutes. I can tell you that the
    majority of our time as police officers is spent cleaning up
    messes and responding and taking calls, taking reports and
    doing investigations. It is not protecting people.
        It is actually, unfortunately in my opinion, that it is not
    the police officer's duty, by SCOTUS, that they have no duty to
    protect. That's what we found in Parkland.
        Mr. Biggs. When you say SCOTUS, you're talking about a
    ruling of the United States Supreme Court.
        Ms. Muller. Yes, sir. We have to protect our children like
    we protect the people in this building. You guys use guns, you
    put a wall up. The hypocrisy doesn't go unnoticed. You put
    military people with guns everywhere. If that's what it takes
    to protect our schools, that's what I expect Congress to do.
    It's not brain surgery. I want to protect the kids.
        Mr. Biggs. So, a comment was made earlier about since
    Arizona went to a constitutional carry status in 2010, that the
    overall homicide rate per 100,000, she didn't use the term per
    100,000, but the overall homicide rate had increased in
    Arizona. Have you had a chance to look at that data?
        Ms. Muller. I did. It was during the Legislator Goodwin's
    comments, that eight percent of aggravated assault that had
    increased since Arizona adopted open carry or permitless carry.
    That struck me because that's not consistent with what I know
    of statistics based on open carry. I went and looked at while
    you guys were on recess.
        In Arizona from 2010 to 2019, murder has declined 22%.
    Murder has declined 22%. Robberies have declined 19%.
    Aggravated assault, I'm still trying to figure out because she
    said aggravated assault with a firearm, and aggravated assault,
    it's not necessarily with just a firearm.
        There isn't a statute, at least in my old department or my
    old city and State that assault, aggravated assault was with
    anything. It could be a car.
        So, that was up eight percent. So, if you're going to--if
    she's going to claim that open carry--
        Mr. Biggs. Just real quick because I'm almost out of time,
    that data is not disaggregated in Arizona by whether it's by
    weapon, guns, or some other weapon, knife, car, or anything.
    Whether it's a police officer who's being assaulted because
    that is categorized as an aggravated assault. That information
    is not disaggregated. So, that's why I found that testimony
    interesting.
        With that, my time is expired. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank the gentleman for his line of
    questioning. As I indicated, there are many on this Committee
    personally having experienced a life experience with guns and
    witnesses as well, none of whom, I choose to believe, are using
    that for a narrative to create gun laws.
        I'm happy now to yield to one of our passionate and
    knowledgeable Members, and that is the gentlelady from Georgia,
    Ms. McBath, for five minutes.
        Ms. McBath. Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank each of you for
    your presence here today and giving your testimony.
        Let's be real. We're talking about gun violence prevention,
    not gun control. Nearly ten years ago I lost my son to gun
    violence. Not a day that goes by that I don't think about him
    and wonder what kind of man he would be today if he were still
    here.
        I came to Congress to prevent other families from
    experiencing the same pain of losing someone that you love so
    dearly to unnecessary gun violence. I truly believe that
    without gun safety legislation, America becomes more powerful
    and violent in a more cruel and arbitrary way.
        Mr. Guttenberg, I know your pain too well. The reality is
    that for every day that we fail to pass commonsense, and it is
    commonsense, gun safety legislation and reforms, more parents
    and more children, siblings, and the partners will know the
    pain which no one in this room should ever, ever have to face.
        Just in Georgia, the State that I represent, we've lost
    Ahmaud Arbery last year unnecessarily. Eight more in the recent
    tragic shootings with the Asian American community just this
    past March.
        Sadly, there are countless acts of violence that never make
    the headlines. No one ever talks about those individuals that
    we lose, other than their loved ones in their communities.
    Nonetheless, the pain of those families is no less deep.
        So, I am glad that we are here again today to keep doing
    this very critical and vital work. Mr. Skaggs, I applaud
    Giffords Law Center for the study of the effectiveness of
    extreme risk protection orders. Nineteen states, as you said,
    and also, DC have embraced this lifesaving tool, and it's
    critical that we know whether or not these laws would be
    effective.
        Thanks to the studies like yours, we know that extreme risk
    protection orders, or red flags as we call them, really do save
    lives. I am proud to have recently reintroduced the Federal
    Extreme Risk Protection Order Act. That's going to make sure
    that every American can access this tool to help keep our
    communities safer.
        I'd like to ask you, how do ERPOs protect the due process
    rights of responsible gun owners?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, I think it's useful to note that these
    extreme-risk protection order laws are modeled closely after
    domestic violence restraining orders or domestic violence
    protective order laws. They use similar procedures, similar
    standards. Those laws have been around in all the states, all
    50 states, for decades.
        They've been used repeatedly in serious situations, and
    they've repeatedly been found to comply with due process
    requirements. So, we have something that is fully consistent
    with due process that's a foundation for these ERPO laws. They
    too are consistent with due process.
        With all that we hear about due process, I don't hear
    anyone pointing to any court that has ever found that any of
    these ERPO laws have problems with due process, and there's a
    reason that we haven't heard of that, because there isn't a
    problem.
        Ms. McBath. Thank you. Our colleague made mention earlier
    that there might be misuse of the ERPOs. So, are there any
    penalties for those that actually abuse the use of ERPOs?
        Mr. Skaggs. Yeah, the ERPO laws around the states all
    include protections so that if someone for frivolous reasons or
    harassing reasons files one of these, that person then subjects
    themself to penalties. It's akin to perjury, which under
    federal law can carry a five-year prison sentence.
        Under your bill, I believe there's a thousand-dollar fine
    if anyone files a frivolous or harassing request for an ERPO.
    That's similar to the states that prevent the misuse of the
    system by ensuring accountability for anybody who tries to
    abuse the system.
        Ms. McBath. Thank you for that. Mr. Guttenberg, and you
    know, I'm proud to be a co-lead of Jamie's Law, which is named
    after your daughter, which you mentioned today, who you lost
    when she was just 14-years old.
        Our laws already prohibit certain people from obtaining
    both firearms and ammunition, but current law doesn't require
    background checks for ammunition. Jamie's Law merely requires
    just that, a background check for ammunition purchases.
        Please explain to this body today how Jamie's Law actually
    saves lives.
        Mr. Guttenberg. I thank you for asking that. We just saw a
    video played here a short while ago. That was a really old
    video. I don't know what year it's from, but I bring it up
    because unlike back then, today we have about 400 million
    weapons on the streets of America. That's a fact.
        Unfortunately, if you're a prohibited buyer of a firearm,
    you are also by law prohibited from getting the ammunition.
    There's no requirement for a background check on ammunition.
        So, among that 400 million that are in the hands of people
    who may want to kill us, they can get their weapon, steal it,
    get it from somewhere where it was unlocked, or a variety of
    other ways, and simply walk into the store and buy the bullets.
        Jamie's Law shuts down that loophole. It ensures that
    people who are currently unable to buy firearms, who can't pass
    a background check, they can't just walk in and buy the
    ammunition to use the weapon. Jamie's Law will save lives
    immediately if passed because it shuts down that loophole.
        It takes that ability of those who do intend harm who are
    in possession of weapons that they shouldn't be in possession
    of from getting the ammunition to carry out the crime. Thank
    you.
        Ms. McBath. Thank you, and I'm out of time.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her questioning
    as well, and I am now delighted to yield to the gentleman, Mr.
    Massie.
        Mr. Massie. Thank you, Madam Chair. There are a lot of
    falsehoods that I want to disprove here today in the short time
    that I have, the first of which is that Republicans don't care
    about life or victims. We care about victims. I care about the
    victims of gun control.
        My former employee, my former staff member, watched her
    husband killed in front of her because she followed the gun
    control laws, and yet her assailant, her stalker, did not. She
    left her concealed carry weapon in her car because it was a
    gun-free zone. It's a sign that no criminal ever pays attention
    to.
        So, let me start with some of the other falsehoods here.
    The Charleston loophole. Democrats say if there had just been a
    few more days to check Dylann Roof's background, Roof would
    have been stopped from buying a gun.
        Here's the problem with that assertion: You can't buy a gun
    if you have a felony or certain misdemeanor convictions or if
    you're arrested but not yet convicted of a crime of a possible
    prison sentence of at least one year.
        Roof's arrest was for a misdemeanor drug offense, which had
    a maximum possible sentence of six months. A longer waiting
    period, which the Democrats have asked for and said would solve
    a lot of problems, would not have blocked his gun purchase.
        If Democrats want a waiting period, then pass a waiting
    period. Don't use a tragedy as an example that doesn't apply.
        If they want ban misdemeanor offenses, people who've
    committed them from possessing a gun, then do that. Don't call
    it the Charleston loophole, it's not a loophole. Fact-check me
    on this.
        Now, let's talk about safe storage laws. I ask unanimous
    consent to enter an article into the record from the Journal of
    Law and Economics. I'll read a little bit of the abstract--
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
        [Information follows:]

                   MR. MASSIE FOR THE RECORD

    =======================================================================

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Massie. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's frequently assumed
    that safe storage guns laws reduce accidental gun deaths and
    total suicides, while the possible impact on crime rates are
    ignored.
        The abstract reads, ``We find no support that safe-storage
    laws reduce either juvenile accidental gun deaths or suicides.
    Instead, these storage requirements appear to impair people's
    ability to use guns defensively.''
        It's just common sense. If somebody breaks into your house
    and your gun's locked up, how are you going to use it to defend
    yourself? We don't want to see a victim of gun control, and
    this could cause more victims of gun control.
        Now, let's talk about background checks. Well, first, I've
    heard it said that 90% of Americans support background checks.
    Well, the last two states that put that as that as a
    referendum, Maine and Nevada, on their ballot, there weren't
    90%. It went down by four percent in Maine. It lost, the
    initiative lost, to have universal background checks.
        In Nevada, Bloomberg spent $35 per vote, and it barely won
    by 0.8% in that ballot initiative. So, clearly, 80% or 90%
    don't support background checks. Let me tell you why they don't
    support background checks. There were 112,000 denials due to
    federal background checks in 2017.
        How many prosecutions do you think there were? By the way,
    these would be easy prosecutions. Somebody has lied on a form,
    and they, a prohibited person, a felon, has signed a form
    stating they are not prohibited. Perjury's not difficult to
    prove when you provide a photo ID.
        How many were convicted of the 112,000 denials? Twelve, 12
    federal prosecutions. So, over time, the false positives had
    added up to several million people.
        The mistakes overwhelmingly affect minority males. People
    tend to have similar names in their racial and ethnic groups.
    Hispanics have names similar to other Hispanics, Blacks have
    names similar to other Blacks.
        Dr. John Lott says that when he was recently working in the
    U.S. Department of Justice, he saw data showing that the false
    positive rate for Black males was more than three times their
    share of the population. It was more than twice the share of
    the population for Hispanic males.
        These are victims of gun control, victims of gun control.
    Now, there are some places where they say, well, if you have a
    good reason, we'll let you have a gun.
        These are where you see the most racial discrimination. In
    Los Angeles County, where about 50% of the population is
    Hispanic, they only get about 6\1/2\ percent of the gun
    permits. Women about seven percent and Blacks five percent.
        Nationwide where people can get a permit generally without
    having to demonstrate such a need, 30% of permit holders are
    women, 13% are Black. It's if you're well-connected, if your
    last name is Biden, you can lie on a form, you can get a gun.
    If you need special permission in New York City, you can get a
    gun if you're wealthy and famous. If you're a poor minority,
    no.
        Here's another problem with the gun control that's going to
    cause more victims of gun control, who are least able to take
    16 hours of their lives and commit it to training and pay $500
    for that training to exercise a basic right.
        Liberals say well, if you have photo IDs and costs and
    trainings associated with voting, you're disenfranchising the
    poor and the minorities. Well, what does this do when you
    require all those things to exercise a basic, fundamental human
    right? It's not just a constitutional right, it's a God-given
    right, it's just restated there in the constitution.
        So, I would say, and there's even more things that I could
    disprove here today with facts, but Republicans do care about
    lives. We care about life, liberty, and the pursuit of
    happiness.
        You cannot have liberty, you cannot have the pursuit of
    happiness without defense of life, and that's what we stand
    for. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time is expired. Now, I am
    happy to call on the gentlelady from Pennsylvania,
    Congresswoman Dean, for five minutes.
        Ms. Dean. I thank the Chair for this powerful hearing and
    the important testimony from all of our witnesses.
        I want to start with what touched me from the pastor.
    Pastor has told us it's all about choices. That couldn't be
    more true today. I'm puzzled by the choice that the Ranking
    Member began with on the importance of this topic. He began
    with the notion that he was offended by alleged inaccuracies of
    Members when they mischarac-terized or misnamed or
    misidentified a weapon.
        Others are uneasy, they're nervous that we might be
    involved in some sort of gun control. Would it be, and would
    that the Ranking Member and others would be more nervous, would
    be more offended that eight children a day die from a failure
    of safe storage. That 20,000 people die of gun violence of this
    year, the highest in 20 years. That 24,000 people die by
    suicide, by gun. That 600 people die in mass shootings, a 50%
    increase from 2019.
        Would that the Members on the other side of the aisle would
    care and be offended by 316 people a day shot and wounded. I
    call it a jetliner a day. A hundred and six will die in that
    jetliner as it tumbles to the Earth. The remaining ones will be
    wounded in the crossfire. It's a jetliner a day, 365 days a
    year.
        Would that the Members on the other side of the aisle would
    care about those troubling numbers. Would that they cared about
    the slaughter.
        Mr. Guttenberg, I am heartbroken and privileged to walk
    with you in this work. Per your testimony, firearm owners who
    keep their guns locked or unloaded are at least 60% less likely
    to die from firearm-related suicide. Adolescents in these
    households have significantly lower risk of firearm suicide or
    of being unintentionally shot.
        With different firearm storage mechanisms from underneath
    the bedroom pillow or from inside Tupperware or above a bureau,
    what should Members of Congress know about really, truly safe
    storage devices for guns in the Prevent Family Fire Act?
        Mr. Guttenberg. Listen, my friends Mike and Kristin Song,
    their son is dead because somebody kept a gun in shoebox.
    That's not safe storage. There are all sorts of easily
    accessible locking devices that can be kept in a home, some
    with smart technology. I think we ought to be really, really
    working harder on that.
        Safe storage does not remove anyone's right, it does not
    remove their access to a weapon. It does not make it hard for
    them to use their weapon. It may save lives. I brought some
    different things here.
        For example, this is the Betsy DeVos school safety report
    after Parkland. This is a Secret Service Report. This is the
    Marjorie Stoneman Douglas report. Every one of them talks about
    the fact that the majority of kids who use weapons in shootings
    get them from a home where they were improperly locked or
    stored. Those are simple facts, that is truth.
        So, a requirement that we lock and safely store a device is
    not an infringement upon anybody's right. I heard everything
    that was said down there. I will simply say I reject almost all
    of it. My daughter would be alive today if somebody put the
    rights of all of us to be free from gun violence.
        We ought to be able to say we respect the rights of gun
    owners, but we also recognize we can be better, we can do
    better to save lives.
        I also just have to say something about Parkland since it
    came up, okay. Because my daughter died in Parkland. So, if
    people bring it up, it matters. You're right, law enforcement
    failed that day. There's no question about it, I am painfully
    aware of that.
        To say that nobody would have died that day if law
    enforcement had shown up is simply inaccurate and wrong. In
    fact, while my daughter might have been saved, she was on the
    third floor, everyone on the first floor still would have been
    shot and killed most likely.
        If you're okay with that as an outcome, that's on you, but
    I'm not. We can be better than this, we're going to be better
    than this. I am counting on this body to get some of these laws
    passed. Thank you.
        Ms. Dean. I see my time is nearly expired. Do I have time
    for one quick question in terms of--
        Ms. Jackson Lee. If the gentlelady is quick.
        Ms. Dean. Mr. Skaggs, can you provide any further
    information on the bill that I have introduced, and others are
    supporting, the Undetectable Firearms Modernization Act?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, it's been a bipartisan agreement for
    years that we shouldn't have guns that can be smuggled onto
    airplanes and other places where metal detectors are used.
        With new increases in technology that allow for guns to be
    manufactured with 3D printers that are basically made of
    plastic and can't be detected by regular metal detectors, it's
    crucially important that we require that we prohibit guns that
    can't be detected by security technology.
        Mr. Skaggs. Finally, I just want to say that we want to
    keep ourselves and our families safe. We want one other thing,
    to end the slaughter. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her very
    forceful questioning.
        The Republicans reserved, and so I will yield to the
    gentlelady from Pennsylvania as well, Congresswoman Mary Gay
    Scanlon for five minutes.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
        Thank you to all our witnesses for your testimony here
    today, including those who have suffered such excruciating
    loss.
        Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, for calling this important
    hearing about gun violence which is, unfortunately, a
    horrifying reality in parts of my district.
        The spike in mass shootings that we are seeing across the
    country right now is appalling. What doesn't make the headlines
    often enough is the steady toll of gun violence that plagues
    too many communities, including those in my district, day-in
    and day-out.
        During the pandemic, shootings never stopped in
    neighborhoods throughout my district, including in Chester and
    Philadelphia. Two weekends ago 7 people were killed and 18
    injured in gun violence in one weekend. The city has lost more
    than 150 lives in over 700 shootings so far this year, and a
    heartbreaking number of those victims were children, some as
    young as 6 years old.
        Yesterday in Southwest Philadelphia there was a community
    rally at the Mitchell Elementary School to bring attention to
    the unrelenting gun violence in that neighborhood. There have
    been 46 shooting victims within a few blocks area just this
    year.
        That gun violence hasn't occurred because of a lack of
    training in gun safety. The gun violence in Kingsessing and
    elsewhere has occurred because this body has not passed
    legislation to stop the flow of illegal guns and ghost guns
    into our communities, to stop the sale of guns to people who we
    all agree should not have them, and to stop the flow of weapons
    of war to civilians. We haven't given our communities the tools
    they need to stop this violence.
        The families and students at Mitchell Elementary School,
    many of them have refused the invitation to return to in-person
    learning this spring because of the epidemic, but not the COVID
    epidemic--because of the epidemic of gun violence in their
    community. The kids are afraid to go to school. Their parents
    are afraid to let them.
        So, this isn't a 2nd amendment issue, it is a public health
    crisis. I know we all understand the response that a public
    health crisis demands, or at least many of us do. We need a
    comprehensive, multifaceted approach driven by research and
    data to address the many facets of the gun violence epidemic.
        Now, Mr. Skaggs, I have localities in my district currently
    working towards implementing the evidence-based strategy of
    group violence intervention. It was actually used in
    Philadelphia around 2012, 2013 with marked success. Like so
    many of the initiatives, it ran out of funding.
        So, I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more
    about what that strategy entails.
        Mr. Skaggs. Sure. Well, there are programs that have been
    proven time and again to be effective. Communities that are
    wracked with higher levels of gun violence are often--the
    patterns of gun violence in those communities involve a tiny
    percentage of the population who are most likely both to be
    shooters and victims of gun violence.
        Strategies that target those individuals, intervene with
    those individuals, provide support and make clear the
    consequences of continuing to engage in violent behavior have
    been shown time and again to produce the kind of results that
    you describe.
        Oakland, California, to take just a single example, cut
    their gun violence rate in half, by 50 percent. The problem
    with these programs is they are often not adequately or
    consistently funded. They require sustained funding and that is
    really the key to their success.
        Ms. Scanlon. I do think it is important to address both the
    availability of guns, illegal guns, and people who shouldn't
    have them in our communities, but also the kind of community
    supports. There is a lot of data coming out recently about the
    correlation between poverty, hunger, and high gun violence.
    That is certainly something we are seeing in my district.
        How can Congress best support local efforts to curb gun
    violence and create safer communities through violence
    intervention programs?
        Mr. Skaggs. Congress can appropriate funding. Congress can
    study and promote best practices and that sort of thing. It is
    not a complex answer to that question: Congress can appropriate
    funding to be given to these programs across the country.
        We have seen some progress about that, and we are very
    pleased about that. Sustained adequate funding is absolutely
    the key to success.
        Ms. Scanlon. So, you would agree that doing nothing is
    probably not the most successful option?
        Mr. Skaggs. That has generally been proven by experience
    not to work, in my knowledge.
        Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady yields back. I thank her
    for her questioning.
        I am pleased to yield to the Ranking Member of the Full
    Committee, Mr. Jordan, for five minutes.
        Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Muller, is it a good idea to defund the police?
        Ms. Muller. No, sir.
        Mr. Jordan. You spent time as a law enforcement officer,
    isn't that right? That is your background?
        Ms. Muller. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Jordan. Retired law enforcement officer how many years,
    20-some years, I think?
        Ms. Muller. Twenty-two.
        Mr. Jordan. Twenty-two years. Who did you end up retiring,
    what police department
        Ms. Muller. Tulsa, Oklahoma.
        Mr. Jordan. Oh, so not some small town. Not small-town
    officers are just as important as large cities. This was in a
    big city?
        Ms. Muller. Correct.
        Mr. Jordan. You dealt with all kinds of things. You dealt
    with gang violence. I think you said you were on the Gang
    Violence Task Force and did work with that?
        Ms. Muller. I did.
        Mr. Jordan. Yeah. So, you have dealt with some tough
    situations.
        What do you think of these extreme protection orders?
        Ms. Muller. Well, I think that the Supreme Court of the
    United States just had something to say about it. They just had
    ruling at the end of last week--I don't even know what day it
    is, so forgive me--but, recently that they struck it down, I
    believe in Maryland or somewhere. So, I don't think that is
    going to be an issue.
        Because here is my background on extreme protection orders.
    We already have a vehicle to help people who are in crisis. We
    have a vehicle to hold up to 72 hours and get a psychological
    evaluation.
        A red-flag law, like going and taking somebody's guns,
    removing one means of having an issue, where is the compassion
    in helping somebody by removing their means to defend
    themselves if they should need it during that time that they
    are in crisis.
        Mr. Jordan. Especially, Ms. Muller, if I could, especially
    when the process for removing that, the person is going to be
    losing their firearm, losing their 2nd amendment liberties,
    doesn't even get to be a part of that initial hearing.
        Ms. Muller. Correct.
        Mr. Massie brought up Nikki who went through a traumatic
    incident. She saw her husband murdered. These extreme
    protection orders could affect her because if somebody says,
    hey, Nikki's not having a great day, I think that you probably
    need to go pick up her gun. So, when this guy that killed her,
    the stalker that killed her husband is still stalking her from
    prison, how would that make--there are just so many unintended
    consequences when it comes to red-flag orders, let alone the
    constitutionality.
        Mr. Jordan. Or what about this scenario: What about a
    family of someone that you arrested and went away to prison,
    and the family doesn't like you? They have got to say, well,
    this Muller lady, she believes in the 2nd Amendment. I think I
    saw a Trump flag in her yard. I don't like her. They file this
    thing and you get the right kind of hearing where you don't get
    to defend yourself at that hearing, and they come take your
    firearm.
        Those are the kind of scenarios that scare me. We know in
    this cancel culture world that we live in those kinds of things
    happen all the time.
        How about this scenario: How about you have to go enforce
    and EPO? So, you are the officer. Go back 10 years, 12 years
    ago, whenever you were a member of the Tulsa Police Department,
    and you have deal with all kinds, you have to go and enforce
    it. You have to knock on the door and tell Mr. Jones or Ms.
    Smith, hey, they just took your gun away. I am here to take it.
    There was a proceeding. Now, you weren't a part of it, just
    your 2nd amendment liberty, you weren't a part of it, but I got
    to take your gun.
        That might not be the best situation either for a cop to be
    walking into, would it?
        Ms. Muller. Your 4th Amendment.
        Mr. Jordan. Yeah, of course.
        Ms. Muller. They are going to trample on your 2nd and your
    4th. It is very dangerous for police officers, extreme
    protection.
        I was struck by us saying that we want to do nothing. I
    gave 12 pages of testimony of things that I want to do.
        Mr. Jordan. Yeah.
        Ms. Muller. Everybody is talking about laws and things that
    I have ideas, and that is what I am saying is a big injustice
    is that you are not listening to me. The antigun people are so
    closed off to anything but their own agenda that they can't
    hear that we have measurable results in firearms education and
    that we should be teaching our kids how to properly and safely
    be around firearms.
        It is just like water safety.
        Mr. Jordan. Well, Ms. Muller, you are doing great. I
    promised my colleague and friend Mr. Massie I would give him
    some time. I am down to 40. So, Mr. Massie, you have my time.
        Mr. Massie. Thank you, Mr. Jordan.
        Ninty-four percent of all successful mass public shootings
    in the United States since 1950 have occurred in places where
    the average citizen is banned from possessing guns. These
    attackers are evil. They might be crazy, but they aren't
    stupid. They look for vulnerable victims. This gets back to my
    prior point that Republicans want to save lives.
        One of the things that we have noticed in the data is
    school shootings have gone up in the last decade, but the
    entirety of that increase in percentage has occurred in schools
    that do not allow teachers to carry firearms.
        There are 20 states in this union that allow, in some form
    or another, teachers to carry firearms. They haven't had, with
    the exception of gang violence outside of school hours, or a
    suicide, they have not had a single shooting. Not a single
    homicide at one of these schools that allows teachers to carry.
        So, this is another area where I think if we would pass my
    Safe Students Act, which would remove the ambiguity on the
    federal law that--by the way, there is a federal law that bans
    anybody from bringing a gun into the school. That hasn't
    worked. What it has done is made students less safe.
        So, I would like to see us pass the Safe Students Act. With
    that, I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time has expired. We have
    been generous with the time for Members who are interested in
    this topic.
        I am delighted now to yield to the gentleman from Rhode
    Island, thank him for his leadership, Mr. Cicilline, for five
    minutes.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for
    holding this very important hearing.
        The gun violence epidemic in this country that we face is
    like nowhere else in the world. In a recent national poll, 58
    percent of American adults reported that they or someone they
    care for has experienced gun violence in their lifetime.
        Americans are 25 times more likely than people in other
    nations to experience gun violence. We lose 30,000 Americans
    every single year to senseless gun violence, including 23,000
    Americans that die by suicide every year with a gun.
        There were almost 200 mass shootings in 2021 alone.
        We have a gun violence epidemic in this country. The
    answers are that we always hear from the opponents of common-
    sense gun safety legislation are twofold:

              One is we can't pass a law that will stop every bit
            of gun violence in the country, so we should do
            nothing.
              Criminals are going to commit crimes anyway.

        Both of those things are true. That doesn't mean we don't
    have a responsibility to pass laws that will substantially
    reduce gun violence in this country. We know how to do it. We
    have researched it for years.
        I want to say to Mr. Guttenberg, to the pastor, thank you
    for being such incredible advocates. Every time you are asked
    to talk about this, I know you re-live this unbearably painful
    experience. You are for me a tremendous inspiration, and I
    thank you for being here.
        Mr. Skaggs, thank you for the great work that you do, and
    your organization does.
        While I don't have a question for Ms. Muller, one of the
    reasons that maybe people aren't listening to you, because when
    arguments are made that a deranged, seriously mentally ill
    person should get to keep a firearm which endangers the
    community in the off chance that that dangerously mentally ill
    person will need the firearm to defend himself, is lunacy. That
    is why I think we find it difficult to listen to some of the
    things you have suggested today.
        We know what we need to do: Universal background checks,
    closing the Charleston loophole, the assault weapons ban, red-
    flag laws, ban the sale of ghost guns, make sure that people
    who buy ammunition go through a background check. These things
    will save lives.
        So, the first thing I have is for you, Mr. Skaggs. Can you
    explain what the danger is with respect to the background check
    system with ghost guns? Because there is evidence that gangs,
    and drug dealers, and criminal elements are assembling and
    getting guns, ghost guns, and how does that relate to the
    background check system?
        Mr. Skaggs. Well, the reason that ghost guns are so
    dangerous is because all the people you described are able to
    acquire these guns without a background check. At the end of
    the day, if you need to drill a couple of holes in an
    unfinished product to assemble your own gun at home, the gun
    functions just like an AR-15 that you bought fully assembled.
    The gun functions just like the Glock pistol that you bought
    fully assembled.
        Under a misinterpretation of federal law, these products
    because they are not 100 percent finished are sold without
    background checks. There is no serial number, no recordkeeping.
    That is why criminals are using them. That is why they are
    attractive to illegal gun traffickers.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
        Representative Goodwin, thank you for your good work. There
    has been a lot of discussion about this city or this State has
    great gun laws but it hasn't solved all the problems. Would you
    speak a little bit of why State regulation or local regulation
    of firearms isn't enough to prevent gun violence, and what role
    you believe the Federal Government must play for effective
    strategies to reduce gun violence in this country?
        Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely. We can cross State lines very
    easily. So, one State having one law that is different from the
    next-door neighbor isn't effective enough. We have such a
    patchwork quilt of regulations on our guns. So, we need a
    universal background check that is throughout the United States
    so someone can't go into Oklahoma and come into Texas with a
    gun, or vice versa.
        It is critical that we do the things that you mentioned:
    Universal background checks.
        I was just speaking with a federal firearms licensee who
    came across somebody who was selling these ghost guns. There is
    very little that he can do. I know it was brought up why don't
    some of these people get punished?
        Well, a lot of your gun store owners don't have a
    responsibility to turn that information in. They don't want to
    get involved in it. So, we have got to have better laws.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
        I just want to ask Mr. Guttenberg in my last 30 seconds. I
    know there was Ms. Muller said she was frustrated. I don't
    think by that she meant that you share the same frustration:
    You lost a child. You have come time and time again imploring
    the Congress of the United States to take action so that other
    children and other people across this country don't have their
    lives taken because of senseless gun violence. Do you have some
    final thoughts for this committee?
        Mr. Guttenberg. Well, you know what, I am going to go back
    to the ghost gun question and why this matters. Because another
    unfortunate friend of mine, Brian Muehlberger in California
    whose daughter Gracie died in the Saugus school shooting, of a
    ghost gun, just so everyone here knows why this work matters.
        After his daughter was killed, his daughter, his dead
    daughter went online and purchased a component to then make a
    ghost gun. That is how easy it was. Okay? So, anyone who thinks
    we shouldn't be doing better than that, Brian documented the
    whole entire thing.
        By the way, not only was she dead, she was I think 14- or
    15-years old when she did it, and was able to successfully
    achieve it.
        So, your work matters. I thank you. I thank you. I thank
    you. Let's keep doing this.
        Mr. Cicilline. Thank you. I yield back, Madam Chair.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman yields back. His time has
    expired.
        I am pleased to yield 5 minutes to the gentlelady from
    Texas, Ms. Escobar.
        Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Madam Chair. Many thanks to our
    panelists today.
        On August 3rd, 2019, El Paso was in the crosshairs. We were
    at the intersection of America's hate epidemic, fueled by anti-
    immigrant rhetoric, rhetoric that is used, unfortunately, by
    colleagues by mine, and also fueled by the gun violence
    epidemic. Yes, ma'am, it is an epidemic.
        It was the deadliest targeted attack on Latinos in modern
    American history, an attack that created an entire region of
    gun violence survivors. Not just the victims and the survivors,
    but the health care professionals, the social workers, the
    therapists, the law enforcement officers, the journalists, and
    so many literally hundreds of thousands of others in our region
    suffering now from secondary trauma that is ongoing.
        This, the ongoing consequences of this kind of attack
    doesn't just include physical or mental health consequences,
    long-lasting, enduring consequences, but financial consequences
    as well.
        Just as an example, El Paso local taxpayers are funding
    both the prosecution and the public defense leading up to and
    during the trial process of the domestic terrorists who
    committed this horrific attack. That process, which includes
    jailing the domestic terrorists, all the experts required for
    both his prosecution and his defense, this will cost taxpayers
    in my community, the same people who are gun violence
    survivors, they will now have to pay over a million dollars as
    a result. This is just on the judicial process alone. This
    doesn't include the therapy. This doesn't include the ongoing
    surgeries and physical therapy. Everything associated with the
    consequences of that attack.
        Immediately after that, my governor, Greg Abbott, came into
    my community, spoke with some of the survivors, and he promised
    that there would be action. What has been an example of a
    miserable failure of leadership, he has moved in the other
    direction.
        We have heard during this hearing about permitless carry
    that has been approved in the State legislature. It feels as
    though for leaders, Republican leaders in my State there isn't
    enough bloodshed and misery across the board.
        Here in Congress, it is so incredibly frustrating to hear
    thoughts and prayers coming from my Republican colleagues, to
    hear them begin hearings with; my sympathies to the families,
    but, there is always a ``but.'' I don't know when we will
    finally get to the solutions which are so clear-cut, so easy,
    and so supported by a broad, a broad swath of American voters
    and communities all over the country.
        In fact, too frequently my colleagues are eager to continue
    to fuel the flames of division instead of partnering with us on
    common sense solutions. Gun violence prevention laws work. From
    1994 to 2004, there was a 25 percent decrease in gun massacres,
    and a 40 percent decrease in fatalities associated with assault
    weapons. Why? Because the federal assault weapons ban was in
    effect. They work. The statistics show it.
        I wish that we didn't have another party that was so
    detached from the truth, but we have one. So, this is why we
    can't seem to make progress.
        Pastor Grady, as I mentioned, there are longstanding
    consequences and effects that survivors have to face. Can you
    share with us what you and Michelle have had to live with,
    Michelle and your wife have had to live with since the massacre
    in 2019?
        Mr. Grady. Thank you so much, Congresswoman.
        Yes, we have had to deal with a myriad of issues from the
    mass shooting: The hospital visits, surgeries, psychological,
    emotional trauma, and trying to make sense out of what actually
    happened here in the City of El Paso, and why hatred seemed to
    be the call word of that particular day.
        We have had to struggle with watching Michelle this year
    having to rehabilitate. She is still in a rehabilitative state.
    How it has impacted our community, because we adopted a slogan,
    ``El Paso Strong,'' but our strength comes from the reality
    that our legislators have also a responsibility to make common
    sense gun legislation and look at mental health issues, and to
    provide resources, community-based violence intervention
    programs. So, we have had to deal with a myriad of issues.
        I am grateful to say that Michelle has risen to the
    challenge. My wife and I, we continue to, and our family, we
    continue to support her. Because of my work with Crime
    Survivors for Safety and Justice we hear from other families in
    our city that are still reeling from the slaughter that
    happened in our city.
        We are determined to continue to press for common sense gun
    legislation to make available resources for those who are still
    suffering to heal the broken hearted, and to reach out to the
    least, the lost, the left out, and the disenfranchised. So, we
    continue to be an advocate for strong policies limiting access
    to guns, and all those issues.
        Our families continue to gain strength from the hope that
    this Committee is doing now.
        Thank you so much.
        Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Pastor Grady. You, Mr. Guttenberg,
    and so many other survivors deserve justice and action.
        Madam Chair, thank you. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady's time has expired.
        Mr. Cicilline. Madam Chair, I have a unanimous consent
    request.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized.
        Mr. Cicilline. Just to further support Congresswoman
    Escobar's presentation, I would ask unanimous consent that this
    graph, which was printed in the Washington Post, entitled gun
    massacres fell during the assault weapons ban. This shows the
    gun massacres both before and after the ban, a considerable
    increase.
        Also, ask unanimous consent to inject into the record a
    fact check which determines that AR-50 assault weapons were
    used in 11, or 10 of the last 11 mass shootings in this
    country.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The information follows:]

                 MR. CICILLINE FOR THE RECORD

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        Ms. Jackson Lee. I now recognize Congresswoman Bush for
    five minutes.
        Ms. Bush. Thank you for convening this important hearing.
        People in my district are no strangers to gun violence.
    This year alone we have had 73 homicides just in the City of
    St. Louis, with a population of less than 300,000 people,
    countless incidents of domestic violence, child abuse, and
    other forms of traumatic community violence. For years we have
    watched our neighborhoods, our schools, parks, and
    infrastructure underfunded or actively defunded.
        My hometown has been devastated by a lack of access to
    trauma prevention and mental health services. At the same time,
    Black and Brown communities in my--people in our community are
    disproportionately impacted by mass incarceration, mass
    deportations, and over-policing.
        We must expand our understanding of gun violence, as well
    as propose solutions to attack gun control as a social issue
    rather than political. Preventing gun violence means
    prioritizing the well-being of our communities by bolstering
    social programs and providing resources and support for those
    who need it the most.
        Pastor Grady, I extend my sincere sympathy to you and your
    family for the trauma you endured following the El Paso
    massacre. I thank you for being here this week on behalf of the
    countless victims of gun violence who have endured a similar
    fate.
        In the interests of preventing gun violence before it
    happens, can you speak to utility of community violence
    prevention programs?
        Mr. Grady. Yes. I believe the community-based violence
    intervention programs really have a proven track record of
    being effective on vitally ensuring the safety of our
    communities. It is relationship-based, it is outreach
    strategies, it is working with law enforcement as well as with
    the faith-based community, and to educate and to provide
    resources, I mean human resources funding that we might be able
    to arrest some of the ills that continues to perplex our
    communities.
        One of the keys of achieving a more just and peaceful
    America would be focusing on significant investment of
    strategies that reduce violence, that brings communities
    together to expose the darkness, to offer the light.
        It is not just one particular thing that causes mass
    shootings. It is a community, it is a disease, that we are not
    at ease in our communities based on resources, and then
    incarceration rates. Again, and what happens once a person is
    released from an institutionalized places where they are
    supposed to be rehabilitated.
        As you know, I am from St. Louis. Many times, when someone
    is released from incarceration they drop them off maybe a block
    from where they picked them up. So, back into that environment
    consistently.
        So, I believe, again, that if we could continue to get
    funding for our community-based intervention programs, if we
    could continue to work with the faith-based community, and to
    invite our law enforcement agencies to be more community-based,
    we could begin to arrest this situation and circumstance.
        Thank you so much, Congresswoman.
        Ms. Bush. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Pastor Grady.
        Mr. Skaggs, as policy director of the Giffords Law Center
    can you speak to how these laws are applied in practice?
    Specifically, can you describe potential unintended
    consequences of these gun safety policies for Black and Brown
    communities who are often the ones that are disproportionately
    criminalized, and charged, and prosecuted for firearms, the
    unintended consequences?
        Mr. Skaggs. I think there are serious structural problems
    with our criminal justice system and mass incarceration in our
    country. All too often Black and Brown Americans bear the brunt
    of those structural problems.
        I think it is critically important that any of the policies
    that we are looking at, we look very carefully at enforcement
    to ensure even-handed, fair enforcement. There is a very, very
    long way to go.
        I think the policies we are talking about today are
    important steps forward to addressing this ongoing crisis. I
    think we need to pass the bills that we have been talking
    about.
        Ms. Bush. Thank you. I firmly believe we have the power to
    transform our community with intentional and deliberate
    policies that encourage the overall health and the well-being
    of those who have the least. Partial solutions only serve to
    exacerbate these issues and increase the number of interactions
    between civilians and the police.
        It is time to fully fund and support community led and
    develop solutions to address the causes of trauma and of gun
    violence. We cannot police our way to public safety.
        Thank you. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. We thank the gentlelady for her
    questioning.
        Both the Ranking Member and I have some closing remarks and
    inquiries that I may wish to make at this time. Then we will
    close the hearing.
        First, I would like to thank all of the Members who have
    come and have been thorough, concerned, and seeking information
    to be problem solvers. Thank you so very much.
        With that, let me yield to the Ranking Member.
        Mr. Biggs. I thank the Chair, and I appreciate your
    kindness in allowing me to take a few minutes to speak and try
    to clarify a few things.
        First, I want to talk about the Caniglia case, which is the
    case that was referenced by Ms. Muller. That case was a case
    involving a 4th amendment seizure by police officers of a gun.
    It was ruled 9-0 that there was a 4th amendment right by that
    individual to have that gun, and it was taken from this home
    without a search warrant, without correct due process.
        It was not directly a red-flag case, but it was a search
    and seizure, turned on 4th amendment rights, not 2nd amendment
    rights.
        Justice Alito in his opinion opined that, quote, and I am
    going to quote this, ``Provisions of red-flag laws may be
    challenged under the 4th Amendment.'' He set the stage for red-
    flag laws being potentially violative of the 4th Amendment.
    That is something that we, everybody in here should be
    concerned about.
        I wanted to get to something that was in the written
    statement of Mr. Skaggs. I don't think it was alluded to.
    People talked all around it, but I just want to get to this
    point. It was on page 3 of your point. I enter it only because
    I think it is a point of interest because we were discussing
    suicides in here, and we have discussed suicides. I think you
    said in your written testimony, that they are about 60 percent.
    I think my data indicates it is 56 percent. I think Ms. Muller
    testified 55 percent.
        Nonetheless, suicide by gun is about somewhere between 55
    and 60 percent of all gun violence in the country. Guns are
    used in only 5 percent of suicide attempts. They are just much
    more effective than other forms of suicide. I think we all can
    acknowledge that. I just wanted to clarify that because I don't
    think it was clarified in the testimony.
        With regard to ghost guns, to manufacture a firearm that is
    intended for sale without a federal firearms license is already
    illegal. That is important to understand and remember. So, if
    someone is manufacturing a ghost gun for the purpose of sale,
    that violates already current federal law.
        I also have a number of pieces. Mr. Guttenberg mentioned
    that the original testimony that we saw of Ms. Hupp was, there
    were not 400 million guns in the United States at the time that
    she initially made that. I think that is right. I mean, it is
    accurate.
        She also testified three other times before Congress. So,
    the initial testimony, yes, that is the correct. She also
    testified, and I would like to submit two transcripts of her
    testimony which contains the same, in essence the same
    testimony she just gave that you saw earlier.
        Also, a document dated May 11th, 2021, called ``In these 11
    cases of firearms safety owner or others.''
        Another one from April 15th with the same title.
        Another one from March 10th saying, ``These 11 examples of
    defensive use undermine push for more gun control.''
        Another one from February 17th entitled, ``11 times a gun
    stopped matters from getting worse.''
        A document entitled, ``Undetectable firearms.''
        Another one entitled, ``Background information on so-called
    assault weapons.''
        Another one entitled, ``Another ban on high-capacity
    magazines.''
        Another one called, ``That time the CDC asked about
    defensive gun uses.''
        Another one entitled, ``Priorities for research to reduce
    the threat of firearm-related violence.''
        So, that is a series of documents. I would ask that they be
    admitted into the record.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The information follows:]

                  MR. BIGGS FOR THE RECORD

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        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        I want to make one last point and then I will--there is so
    much to talk about. I really am sincerely grateful that
    everybody came in. We may differ on getting to it. I think
    there are some root causes that if we were to let down our
    partisan guard and our defensiveness, we might be able to reach
    some kind of accord on some things that might work.
        Having said that, and I would refer people to Ms. Muller's
    written testimony which does have a series of proposed remedies
    that she advocates for. I remind everybody on this Committee
    that just a week ago our Chair wisely admonished our side from
    berating witnesses last week. Yet, today Chair Nadler attacked
    Ms. Muller.
        In his statement before he got in his questioning, before
    he went asking any questions, he berated Ms. Muller.
        Then I would say that my colleague from Rhode Island, Mr.
    Cicilline, in my opinion, he probably doesn't think so, but I
    think he misrepresented her view, and then followed up by
    saying that those points, which I think were misrepresented,
    were lunacy.
        We have had one witness to say that arguments that
    disagreed with his are ``B.S. arguments.''
        If you really want to get to a way to resolve issues, we
    need to move past this constant discarding of whatever the
    other side is saying. We are divided. There are two sides.
    There are probably places of finding accord. Defensiveness and
    ad hominem attacks are not successful.
        That is why I thank the gentlelady for reminding us of last
    week. I wanted to just take the opportunity to remind us of a
    little bit this week on some of the talkers that we heard from
    some of my colleagues on the other side.
        With that, Madam Chair, thank you again for the opportunity
    to take a moment. I yield back.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the Ranking Member. I wanted to
    extend to you the courtesies. I would just say for both of us,
    when Members are out of the room it is probably challenging for
    me to accept critiques if they are not here to respond. I thank
    you for your clarification.
        I, too, have some concluding questions similar to take
    within my time frame here.
        I do want to remind everyone that we came today to discuss
    the unending crisis and to find essential steps to reduce gun
    violence and mass shootings. So, I have some quick round robin
    for the witnesses that I did not get a chance to indicate a
    question. I will be very succinct. I ask the witnesses to be
    so.
        I want to start with Representative Goodwin and to just ask
    her the question that the potential of permitless guns, will
    that, in your opinion, produce more death and more bloodshed?
        Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely, I believe so.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Would it make Texas a more dangerous
    state?
        Ms. Goodwin. I believe so.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you for your work. We appreciate it.
        With that, I want to introduce into the record a submission
    by Moms Demand Action, that works very hard, that has indicated
    the number of police associations, the Texas Municipal Police
    Association, Texas Police Chiefs, licensed carry instructors,
    faith leaders who are against this legislation, including Moms
    Demand Action. That will be submitted into the record very
    quickly.
        [The information follows:]

                 MS. JACKSON LEE FOR THE RECORD

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        Ms. Jackson Lee. Pastor Grady, thank you. I am sure you
    know many of the pastors in my community. You answered it, but
    I would appreciate it if you would say it again.
        Your daughter still suffers from wounds that she was a
    victim of during that heinous shooting. Are those wounds
    including mental challenges? When I say that, her having to go
    through again, so these are long-lasting impacts when you are a
    gun violence victim? Pastor Grady.
        Mr. Grady. Yes, Congresswoman, that is correct. Those
    challenges every day Michelle goes through the struggle with
    the emotional, psychological baggage that came with this
    horrendous attempt to take her life. She works through it. She
    has an advocate, of course.
        She is also involved at using her story about her
    overcoming and being intentional about healing. So, yes, those
    will be a part of her life, and part of our life forever, I
    believe. She is working through it. She is courageous. She has
    a great support system here in place as well, as do the other
    survivors of this horrendous crime that took place in our city.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. So, the pain of
    those families who have lost a loved one, and then the pain of
    those families who are now taking care of a victim who is
    resilient but still has this impact.
        Mr. Skaggs, if I might.
        Mr. Grady. Yes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much, Pastor Grady.
        If I might, I have been doing this for 27 years, longer,
    because I authored the first gun ordnance in the city of
    Houston that was ever past, and that was holding parents
    responsible for not storing their guns and generating the loss
    of little ones in the home.
        Can you present for me legally the 2nd amendment and its
    ability to stand alongside of those of us who are advocates for
    gun safety, are we arguing against the 2nd amendment when we
    argue against ghost guns, argue for storage, argue for
    background checks, argue for banning assault weapons? Is the
    2nd amendment compatible with gun safety?
        Mr. Skaggs. I very much believe that it is.
        In the 2008 decision, District of Columbia v. Heller, the
    Court made clear that while the 2nd amendment protects an
    individual right, it is not an absolute or unlimited right. It
    doesn't extend the right to carry any weapon whatsoever in any
    manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose
        The decision specifically made clear with regard to
    storage, that nothing in the 2nd amendment is in conflict with
    laws that prevent child accidents by requiring guns to be
    stored. That is in the Heller decision itself.
        It said a wide variety of additional laws were also fully
    constitutional and fully permissible.
        So, what we at Giffords are trying to do is find the
    evidence-based solutions that will both save lives, that the
    evidence shows us will save lives, and are also fully
    consistent with the right to keep and bear arms.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I think there are many articles consistent
    with that.
        I would assume you would also add extreme risk orders are
    likewise not contrary to the 2nd Amendment. I understand
    working with my local law enforcement they are heavily
    concerned about individuals' conditions--with certain
    conditions having guns.
        Is that inconsistent?
        Mr. Skaggs. That is not inconsistent.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you.
        Let me submit into the record a study by Johns Hopkins that
    found strong support among gun owners and non-gun owners for
    more than twenty gun-violence prevention policies, including
    extreme risk orders, protection orders.
        I will submit that into the record, without objection.
        [The information follows:]

                MS. JACKSON LEE FOR THE RECORD

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        Ms. Jackson Lee. Then I want to take note of a renowned
    expert, David Hemingway, not that Hemingway but David
    Hemingway, that noted rather than rely on the blame game, the
    public health approach to reducing gun violence seeks to bring
    people and institutions together to get to work on the problem.
    It invites everyone to join the effort as part of the solution.
        My Ranking Member made that in his final remarks. Then I am
    looking for us to be able to join together, maybe on the
    storage bill, or other bills that might be helpful.
        The scientific evidence indicates that all other things
    equal, places with stronger firearm laws have fewer gun
    problems and suffer fewer violent deaths than places with
    weaker laws.
        Let me conclude with you, Mr. Guttenberg. Let me indicate
    that your member, who has been so much a champion, had rain
    delay. That is, of course, Mr. Deutch, who is a member of this
    committee, and extends his best wishes by way of his staff. I
    want that to be noted on the record.
        You suffered an unspeakable pain, Congresswoman McBath as
    well, children being lost, another child dealing with it but
    living his full life. How do you speak to those who would
    suggest that your pain and advocacy is anti-police, that you
    are a defund the police advocate, and that you cannot see the
    value of good policing, good police conduct?
        I know there were some, there are long issues that we could
    talk about response and schools, but I want you to talk about
    your pain as we conclude this hearing, and that you find--I
    don't want to put words in your mouth--that your work is not
    inconsistent with your ability to work with good policing, good
    police conduct, and support the idea of protect and serve, but
    also want to ensure that we end the proliferation of guns and
    bloodshed on the streets of America?
        Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you so much for asking me that.
        Anyone who follows my story knows I am actually very
    connected to law enforcement and our first responder community.
        Anyone who follows my story knows my brother died, as have
    many first responders, because of his service in 9/11.
        Anyone who follows my story has heard me talk about the law
    enforcement officers who have been and continue to be a part of
    my life.
        I will answer your question really simply: Gun safety is
    police safety. If we do more to deal with the reality of the
    guns and gun violence, we will save the lives of law
    enforcement, we will save the lives of the Members of our
    community. The less at-risk people feel, the less there is
    going to be a risk of gun violence.
        It gets back to the earlier question you also asked on
    extreme risk-protection orders. Law enforcement really
    appreciates them for a reason: Because it does help them take
    weapons from those who intend harm to others. Had extreme risk-
    protection orders been in place before the Parkland shooting,
    it is likely that shooting never would have happened. It is the
    reason we passed it in Florida three weeks after Parkland.
        So, what I would say to anyone who would suggest that
    because I believe in gun safety, that I have some aversion to
    law enforcement, I would simply argue I actually care more
    about their lives than you do.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. We care about the experiences that you
    have had as well.
        As I close this hearing, we have many views in America:
    People who believe that police should be reimagined--and I
    respect them all; and funds should be used to help end violence
    and promote community groups. That does not suggest that they
    are defunding, they are imaging, reimagining. We have all
    voices in this room.
        Today's hearing was about ending the crisis, senseless
    crisis of gun violence. That is what I hope we have garnered.
    We will look at everyone's testimony and find common ground. I
    hope my Ranking Member will take his own words, which is to
    find a way that we can work together.
        I thank all the Members that were kind enough to stay. I
    thank all the witnesses that have presented us with an
    excellent record that we can proceed on. I think the real
    question now is for us to get the job done.
        Thank you so very much. This meeting is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 2:08 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                    APPENDIX

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