[House Hearing, 117 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] PROTECTING RENTERS DURING THE PANDEMIC: REVIEWING REFORMS TO EXPEDITE EMERGENCY RENTAL ASSISTANCE ======================================================================= VIRTUAL HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ SEPTEMBER 10, 2021 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services Serial No. 117-45 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 45-862 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina, NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member BRAD SHERMAN, California FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York BILL POSEY, Florida DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri AL GREEN, Texas BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri ANN WAGNER, Missouri ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado ANDY BARR, Kentucky JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas BILL FOSTER, Illinois FRENCH HILL, Arkansas JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio TOM EMMER, Minnesota JUAN VARGAS, California LEE M. ZELDIN, New York JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia AL LAWSON, Florida WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam TED BUDD, North Carolina CINDY AXNE, Iowa DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee SEAN CASTEN, Illinois TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio RITCHIE TORRES, New York JOHN ROSE, Tennessee STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina LANCE GOODEN, Texas RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania VAN TAYLOR, Texas ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York PETE SESSIONS, Texas JESUS ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts Charla Ouertatani, Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on: September 10, 2021........................................... 1 Appendix: September 10, 2021........................................... 67 WITNESSES Friday, September 10, 2021 Morris, Kadeem, Supervising Attorney, Community Legal Services of Philadelphia................................................... 5 Salazar, Margaret, Executive Director, Oregon Housing and Community Services (OHCS); and Vice Chair, National Council of State Housing Agencies (NCSHA)................................. 7 Schwartz, David, CEO, Chairman & Co-Founder, Waterton; and Chair, National Multifamily Housing Council (NMHC).................... 9 Winn, Gilbert, Chief Executive Officer, WinnCompanies............ 12 Yentel, Diane, President and CEO, National Low Income Housing Coalition (NLIHC).............................................. 11 APPENDIX Prepared statements: Morris, Kadeem............................................... 68 Salazar, Margaret............................................ 73 Schwartz, David.............................................. 83 Winn, Gilbert................................................ 99 Yentel, Diane................................................ 107 PROTECTING RENTERS DURING THE PANDEMIC: REVIEWING REFORMS TO EXPEDITE EMERGENCY RENTAL ASSISTANCE ---------- Friday, September 10, 2021 U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on Financial Services, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 12:09 p.m., via Webex, Hon. Maxine Waters [chairwoman of the committee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Waters, Sherman, Green, Cleaver, Perlmutter, Foster, Gottheimer, San Nicolas, Axne, Adams, Dean, Ocasio-Cortez, Garcia of Illinois, Garcia of Texas, Williams of Georgia, Auchincloss; McHenry, Posey, Huizenga, Wagner, Barr, Williams of Texas, Hill, Emmer, Zeldin, Loudermilk, Davidson, Kustoff, Gonzalez of Ohio, Rose, Steil, Timmons, Taylor, and Sessions. Chairwoman Waters. The Financial Services Committee will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. As a reminder, I ask all Members to keep themselves muted when they are not being recognized by the Chair. The staff has been instructed not to mute Members, except when a Member is not being recognized by the Chair, and there is inadvertent background noise. Members are also reminded that they may only participate in one remote proceeding at a time. If you are participating today, please keep your camera on, and if you choose to attend a different remote proceeding, please turn your camera off. Today's hearing is entitled, ``Protecting Renters During the Pandemic: Reviewing Reforms to Expedite Emergency Rental Assistance.'' I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening statement. From the very beginning of this pandemic, I have sounded the alarm about the urgent need for congressional action to avert a massive spike in our national eviction crisis. As Chair of this committee, I understand the devastating impacts that evictions have on families, and I also understand how much landlords, particularly small, mom-and-pop landlords, are struggling because of unpaid rent. I also recognize that evictions increase the spread of COVID, and have the potential to seriously set back our national economic recovery. That is why I have worked around the clock on this issue. I am reminded, as I have worked on this issue, that we have extended the moratorium between the Congress of the United States and the CDC 6 times. Thankfully, due to the hard work of this committee, in 2020 Congress passed $25 billion in emergency rental assistance and provided an extension of the Federal eviction moratorium. Several months later, under the leadership of President Biden, Democrats passed an additional $21.6 billion in emergency rental assistance as part of the American Rescue Plan Act. But our work is not done. I am very concerned about data showing that State and local governments have only used 11 percent of the $46.6 billion in emergency rental assistance funds that are available. There is no question that the funds are not reaching landlords and renters quickly or widely enough. In addition, the Supreme Court's action along partisan lines to lift the CDC's eviction moratorium puts millions at risk of eviction, even as the Delta variant causes a deadly resurgence of the virus. That is why I have introduced new legislation, the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act of 2021, which is designed to make sure that individuals and families are not put out of their homes while this virus continues to harm communities across the country. This bill would allow landlords to apply directly for back rent they are owed, even if a renter is unresponsive, as long as the landlord provides notice and meets other conditions, including a requirement that tenants may not be evicted for at least 120 days, and that the landlords would be paid for those 120 days following the first request for assistance. The legislation would also require grantees receiving emergency rental assistance funds to accept attestations from tenants, and to provide funds directly to tenants when the landlord is unresponsive or refuses to participate. The legislation also gears up outreach. Working very closely with the Treasury, we have come up with many ways to modify these applications. So the legislation, again, also gears up outreach to increase public awareness of the availability of emergency rental assistance funds, providing funding for mailings, radio, TV, and internet ads, and ensures that grantees have the resources and help to get the funds out the door. These steps and others in the bill will cut down barriers preventing the robust rental assistance funding that Congress has provided from reaching renters. Today, we will also discuss legislation that Ranking Member McHenry has introduced regarding rental assistance. While I have some serious concerns with the ranking member's bill, I believe that we are aligned in our goal to expedite assistance to those in need, so I want to work with him, and I am hopeful that we can work together and that this could be a bipartisan bill. I look forward to discussing both bills with our panel of experts today. I now recognize the ranking member of the committee, the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. McHenry, for 5 minutes. Mr. McHenry. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding today's hearing, and thank you for those encouraging words of outreach now that we are 5 months past when committee Republicans filed our bill, the Renter Protection Act. And I want to thank you for attaching that bill, which is supported by every Republican on the committee, to this hearing. The bill makes common-sense reforms to Treasury's rental assistance programs to get help to renters and landlords now. It is a bill we should have considered months ago, before the eviction moratorium expired, and before renters and landlords had the rug pulled out from underneath them. Committee Republicans have been raising the alarm since it became clear that the Treasury Department was failing to get renter relief out the door. To state the obvious, the Emergency Rental Assistance Program isn't working. Congress gave the Treasury Department more than $46 billion to help renters and property owners survive the pandemic. Back in May, I asked Treasury to provide basic data that would help us understand where all that money is and why it hasn't reached renters. They couldn't answer those questions. And they still can't. We had a hearing late in July with the HUD Secretary, who was profoundly unprepared to answer basic questions about this important program. We asked, ``Is rental assistance money being used to help COVID-impacted families?'' and she told us, ``I have no idea.'' Let me repeat that. The HUD Secretary said, ``I have no idea.'' That is unacceptable. The whole process has been unacceptable. It has been 2 months since the Federal eviction moratorium expired, and several weeks since the Supreme Court struck down President Biden's last-minute extension, and here we are, again, asking, why isn't the program working and how can we fix it? Is Secretary Yellen here? No. Did the Majority invite her? No. And she is in charge of deploying these moneys. Committee Republicans did invite her, and to no one's surprise, she didn't agree to come. And, again, she didn't come to answer these basic questions that we all have, on both sides of the aisle. Three days ago, Democrats finally put forward their alternative. You may have not heard or read about it, so I will summarize it for you: more red tape; more bureaucracy; and more delays. Simply put, the Democrats' bill will not fix the Biden Administration's abject failure. Here is what we should be doing. First, we should consolidate all of the rental assistance programs into one easy-to-manage program for localities to administer. Second, we need to reform the program so that money goes to property owners to settle back debts, so that families can stay in their homes. Third, we need to make it easier for property owners to participate on behalf of residents. And finally, we have to require grantees to move faster, for example, by accepting bulk applications. It seems like Democrats in Washington forgot that the purpose of the program is to pay back rent. This isn't difficult. To get the program back on track, it simply requires that our solutions be targeted, timely, and tied to COVID. But the bill put forward by Democrats would only make things worse, not better. So, instead of actually solving problems today, there will be more finger-pointing at the previous Administration by my Democrat friends, and more proposals to empower liberal activists by my Democrat friends, and zero plans to hold the Biden Administration accountable for their failures, which is very typical of my Democrat friends right now. This is a shame. Since it appears our bill won't get a fair shake in this committee this morning, I filed a discharge petition for the Renter Protection Act. I would encourage every Member to sign onto it. And with that, I look forward to the panel, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Much of what the ranking member is saying needs to be done, is in this bill. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, is recognized for one minute. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you. The legislation being discussed at this hearing, the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act of 2021, proposes several changes to Emergency Rental Assistance (ERA) 1 and ERA 2 which will ensure that the Federal emergency rental assistance funding that we fought so hard for on this committee is continuing to reach those who are in need. As the COVID-19 pandemic continues to surge, far too many American families have been, and will be subject to the horrors of an eviction. Many small landlords who have invested their retirement incomes now have to worry about whether or not their property will go into foreclosure. Like many of you, I have been frustrated at the slow pace at which State and local governments have been implementing the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, and there is no time to waste in making the reforms necessary to get funds out the door as quickly and efficiently as possible. I look forward to hearing from today's witnesses, and I want to thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for your leadership, and for convening this hearing. Thank you very much. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. You are so welcome. I now recognize the gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Hill, for one minute. Mr. Hill. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Where is Secretary Yellen? It has been 5 months since the Treasury Secretary testified before our committee. Yet, the Biden Administration seems to feel no sense of urgency to help renters and mom-and-pop landlords who need it most, no sense of responsibility to answer to Congress, and no sense of shame over a complete mishandling of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program. Instead, we have the distinguished chairman from South Carolina, Mr. Clyburn, browbeating governors and trying to shift blame to them from the Treasury Secretary. It is a mistake, and we are hurting over a million families who are estimated to be evicted in the next couple of months. Republicans have a better solution, the Renter Protection Act, which would simplify the needlessly-complicated Rental Assistance Program, get the money out faster, and actually help the people that Congress intended to help: those who lost their jobs and got behind on their rent due to COVID-19. If my friends across the aisle are serious about a solution, I urge my friends to include the Renter Protection Act in Monday's committee action. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. I want to welcome today's distinguished witnesses to the committee. First, we have Mr. Kadeem Morris, a supervising attorney with Community Legal Services of Philadelphia. Second, we have Ms. Margaret Salazar, the executive director of the Oregon Housing and Community Services Department. Third, we have Mr. David Schwartz, the CEO, chairman, and co-founder of Waterton, and the chair of the National Multifamily Housing Council. Fourth, we have Ms. Diane Yentel, the president and CEO of the National Low Income Housing Coalition. Now, I will recognize the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Lynch, to introduce our last witness. Mr. Lynch? Is Mr. Lynch on the platform? Okay. Well, while we are waiting for Mr. Lynch, who wanted very much to introduce this witness, I will move on, and I will introduce Mr. Gilbert Winn, the CEO of WinnCompanies. Each of you will have 5 minutes to summarize your testimony. You should be able to see a timer on your screen that will indicate how much time you have left, and a chime will go off at the end of your time. I would ask you to be mindful of the timer, and quickly wrap up your testimony if you hear the chime. And without objection, your written statements will be made a part of the record. Mr. Morris, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF KADEEM MORRIS, SUPERVISING ATTORNEY, COMMUNITY LEGAL SERVICES OF PHILADELPHIA Mr. Morris. Good afternoon. My name is Kadeem Morris, and I am a supervising attorney in the housing unit of Community Legal Services of Philadelphia. Community Legal Services helps more than 10,000 people per year with legal problems that threaten their home, health, and income, and more than 2,300 households per year who are facing evictions due to the COVID- 19 pandemic. I would like to thank Chairwoman Maxine Waters and the members of the House Committee on Financial Services for inviting me to speak today. The COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated the pre-existing housing crisis in the United States, causing more people to join the ranks of the housing insecure. The ability to access safe and affordable housing is not guaranteed in the United States. However, the collateral consequences when a family is evicted are clear and immediate. The faces of the evicted are the faces of the vulnerable members of society. Studies have found that single mothers, most commonly Black and Brown, make up the majority of those affected by evictions and forced moves, the grim reality in Philadelphia, where 71 percent of the annual eviction cases are filed against communities of color. The pandemic has exacerbated difficulties for these communities, mainly Black, Brown, seniors, and people living with disabilities. These communities are most likely to have lost income during the pandemic, putting them at greater risk of an eviction filing and subsequent homelessness and housing instability beyond the pandemic. The health consequences combined with the financial hardship of having your job disappear has shattered the already shaky foundation upon which vulnerable families stood. People who were struggling to make ends meet before the pandemic were forced to make the bitter choice of risking their health and the health of the families that they live with by working during the pandemic and potentially contracting the virus, or facing the long-term consequences of unemployment and increased household expenses. In Philadelphia, the effects of delivery of rental assistance to vulnerable households has prevented displacement and, as a result, prevented the community spread of COVID-19. The Philadelphia Eviction Diversion Program partners with the City's Emergency Rental Assistance Program to ensure that people are able to access assistance for the benefit of both landlords and tenants. Through targeted outreach and supportive services, Philadelphia was able to build a rental assistance program that could preserve the landlord/tenant ecosystem. The demographic data provided by the City of Philadelphia demonstrates that rental assistance dollars are reaching vulnerable communities: 65 percent of the families assisted were Black or African American; 60 percent of the applicants were female; and over 70 percent of the households served had a household income below 30 percent of the area median income. Landlords who were struggling with their mortgages were paid, and tenants who were behind on their rent were not displaced. The Eviction Diversion Program provides a forum by which landlords and tenants can meet and discuss issues without the pressure of a court filing. The program also uses highly- skilled, impartial mediators to create a forum where landlords and tenants can resolve issues, and tenants are automatically assigned a housing counselor who works with them throughout the process, assisting them with the rental assistance application, and coordinating any other supportive services. For rental assistance programs to operate effectively, administrators cannot create additional hoops for tenants and landlords to have to jump through. If the stated goal of the program is to prevent evictions of vulnerable households, the municipalities and other administrators should limit the amount of paperwork and forms of verification that tenants and landlords need to submit. Under the American Rescue Plan, households who have not experienced a change in income, but have experienced an increase of expenses, are eligible to apply. This opens the door for a significant portion of the population, including the elderly and disabled, to participate in the program. Increased expenses during the pandemic are reflected in the cost of food, cost of transportation, and often, the cost of burying family members who have suffered from COVID. These vulnerable households are bearing the increased costs without an increase in income, and most are unable to afford market- rate rent based on their income. Sadly, H.R. 3913, the Renter Protection Act, proposes to limit the usage of the unspent funds under the American Rescue Plan. If getting the money out to landlords and tenants is a top priority, the Federal Government should not take any steps to limit the flexibility that is currently given to program administrators, and set up both programs and supportive services that gets the money paid out. The proposed changes outlined in the Emergency Rental Assistance Program in H.R. 5196, the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act, are vital to the survival of the landlord/tenant ecosystem. Providing flexibility for landlords to apply without tenants who are unresponsive, requiring grantees to inform those tenants that their arrearage has been paid, and that they are covered by the 120-day eviction prohibition places landlords and tenants on even footing by allowing tenants to self-advocate with the information. The satisfaction of outstanding money judgments and the sealing of cases are vital, as evictions have long-term consequences. In closing, I would like to encourage the Federal Government to take steps to adopt the proposed changes outlined in H.R. 5196, and make it easier and create additional flexibility for agencies to administer their rental assistance programs. Thank you for your time. [The prepared statement of Mr. Morris can be found on page 68 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Next, we will go to Ms. Salazar. You are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF MARGARET SALAZAR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OREGON HOUSING AND COMMUNITY SERVICES (OHCS); AND VICE CHAIR, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE HOUSING AGENCIES (NCSHA) Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. For the record, my name is Margaret Salazar, and I am the executive director of the Oregon Housing and Community Services Department, and I also serve as the vice chair of the National Council of State Housing Agencies (NCSHA). My agency, like 27 other State housing finance agencies (HFAs), serves as a Statewide administrator of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program. Every month, State ERA administrators have increased the rate at which they have distributed assistance. States delivered more than $1.6 billion in the month of August, the highest level of any month to date. State programs, on average, have funded more than one-third of the applications that they have received, with many funding 50 percent or more. The ERA Program has provided a lifeline to more than 1 million vulnerable renters, and made thousands of landlords whole. Since the beginning of this calendar year, my agency, OHCS, has obligated more than $204 million in rental assistance. This is the equivalent of our entire ERA 1 allocation, but it represents a combination of both State and Federal funds. Of this total, nearly $35 million is Federal ERA assistance. In the last month, our agency has taken bold action to speed up application processing. We have hired more than 60 temporary staff, and brought on an outside vendor to boost capacity for our local partners on the ground. We have created self-attestation forms, disseminated informational videos, and translated materials into multiple languages. We have partnered with community-based organizations to increase outreach and support, particularly in communities of color. But there are limits to what ERA can achieve as currently authorized. We agree with Chairwoman Waters that legislation is needed to further reform this program, to greatly strengthen its effectiveness. NCSHA supports Chairwoman Waters' Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act. We also encourage you to make several additional statutory improvements to further strengthen the program, which are in my written statement. Any ERA program reforms must reflect the fundamental balances that agencies at all levels of government must strike. The first is balancing renter protection with landlord participation. NCSHA has repeatedly acknowledged the extraordinary efforts of landlords to keep tenants safely housed during this pandemic. While some landlords have declined to participate in rental assistance programs, others have been unable to do so, because a tenant is not responsive or has vacated the unit, leaving the landlord with unpaid arrears. We support the provisions in Chairwoman Waters' proposal, to allow landlords to apply for ERA on behalf of tenants even if the landlord is unable to gain the renters' consent, or because the tenant is not responsive or has vacated the property. The second important balance is between equity, efficiency, and accountability. ERA administrators have been accused of unnecessarily prioritizing documentation requirements to prevent fraud over the urgent need to make rental assistance available. But even with the new flexibilities in U.S. Treasury rules as of 2 weeks ago, the ERA statute and Treasury requirements still impose significant accountability on ERA administrators. Our experience in the field tells us that verbal assurances from U.S. Treasury will not guide Federal agency oversight, either through Federal or State or local audits. State and local officials are on the line for meeting this unprecedented emergency, and we are acting in good faith while we work to balance urgency and accountability. We support the provisions in Chairwoman Waters' proposal that would provide a safe harbor to grantees so that they would not be subject to liability, to repay assistance provided in good faith, relying on the attestation of the tenant. The third balance is between current and coming demand. My team in Oregon and my colleagues around the country are committed to helping as many eligible renters, as quickly as possible. We understand the urgency. The unevenness of the economic recovery and the clear demand for the program suggest that ERA will become even more needed in the months ahead. In addition, there are indications that utility arrearages remain substantial. Estimates of unpaid utilities range from $10 billion to $30 billion. We also support the provision in Chairwoman Waters' proposal that would extend the time period during which an individual household may receive ERA assistance to up to 24 months. The Administration has accurately said that the launch of ERA required building a new national infrastructure for rental assistance and eviction prevention that did not previously exist. Additional improvements to the ERA statute can help build out that infrastructure for an even greater impact. Thank you, and I will be glad to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Salazar can be found on page 73 of the appendix. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Ms. Salazar. Mr. Schwartz, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF DAVID SCHWARTZ, CEO, CHAIRMAN & CO-FOUNDER, WATERTON; AND CHAIR, NATIONAL MULTIFAMILY HOUSING COUNCIL (NMHC) Mr. Schwartz. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee, it is my privilege to appear before you today to speak on behalf of the multifamily rental housing industry, the National Multifamily Housing Council, the National Apartment Association, and our nation's 40 million apartment households on the urgent reforms needed to the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, or ERAP. My name is David Schwartz, and I am CEO and chairman of Waterton, headquartered in Chicago, Illinois, with regional offices throughout the United States. Waterton is a real estate investment and property management company with a focus on U.S. multifamily properties. I am also the current chair of the National Multihousing Council, or NMHC. Our country has faced unprecedented challenges for the past 18 months, creating significant hardships for America's renters and jeopardizing the stability of the housing sector. We commend the work of this committee in creating the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, and appreciate your continued work to ensure the ability of ERAP to serve those in need. Throughout this crisis, rental housing owners and operators have continuously worked to address the needs of our residents, employees, and communities, deploying various means to accommodate the housing challenges presented by COVID-19, despite their own financial uncertainty and economic losses. The apartment industry knows better than anyone the importance of providing a safe, secure place to call home, and it is a responsibility we do not take lightly. But the housing industry cannot shoulder COVID-relief efforts alone. Moreover, housing providers were severely impacted by eviction moratoriums which just merely shifted the economic hardships of the pandemic to housing providers. One-size-fits-all Federal moratoriums were, and are, unsustainable, and fail to address the underlying financial distress of residents. Instead, ERAP is a critical stabilizer for residents and housing providers alike, and the most effective mitigation tool at our disposal. This is why it is urgent to focus on implementing workable solutions for renters and housing providers facing barriers and delays in the distribution of vital rental assistance funds. The apartment industry is playing a key role in helping execute the Rental Assistance Program and to secure benefits for their residents. Given the widely varying nature of rental assistance programs, and the multijurisdictional footprint of many apartment firms, this necessitates a significant commitment of resources and staff to vet dozens, or even hundreds of programs, with differing eligibility, application, and distribution policies. We applaud this committee's focus on reforming the program, and appreciate that H.R. 5196, the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act of 2021, and H.R. 3913, the Renter Protection Act of 2021, address many of our concerns. My written testimony provides detailed recommendations for unlocking the flow of ERAP funds and addressing barriers to the delivery of relief to those in need. In particular, we support efforts to help jurisdictions ramp up delivery of rental assistance benefits, including streamlining onerous application documentation requirements, ensuring eligibility aligns with those residents in need of support, leveraging housing provider capabilities to assist with application processes, and embracing practices and technologies with proven operational success. Importantly, we caution against the imposition of new program requirements unrelated to the accelerated distribution of funds that further or create new barriers to participation in ERAP programs. Instead, we urge a singular focus on those efforts that can lessen the burden of program administrators and applicants while improving the outflow of benefits. There is also a pressing need to address the ability to secure ERAP funds when residents are unwilling or unable to cooperate with the application process. Congress must enable housing providers to apply for rental assistance on behalf of residents who are unresponsive, have vacated units, or are otherwise unavailable. Without action to address ERAP's current limitations and increased participation in the program, renters are faced with further uncertainty and a mounting debt cliff, while housing providers are forced to address rental losses through foreclosure, bankruptcy, removal of the property from the rental stack, and other measures with long-term market impacts. We are dedicated to working in partnership with policymakers at all levels on addressing the challenges of COVID-19, while advancing proven solutions for long-term housing affordability. This committee's attention to addressing the root causes of housing instability is vital, and we are committed to efforts that would bolster housing assistance to renters, increase housing provider participation in Federal housing programs, break down barriers to provision of rental housing, and increase housing of choice for renters. [The prepared statement of Mr. Schwartz can be found on page 83 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Thank you, Mr. Schwartz. Ms. Yentel, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF DIANE YENTEL, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL LOW INCOME HOUSING COALITION (NLIHC) Ms. Yentel. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. When the Supreme Court lifted the Federal eviction moratorium, it eliminated the last Federal protection keeping 6.5 million families who were behind on their rent stably housed. The unprecedented resources that Congress provided for emergency rental assistance has yet to reach many of them. Now, they are at risk of losing their homes as the Delta variant surges. The urgency of getting assistance to tenants and landlords cannot be overstated, but many communities are spending their ERA allocations much too slowly. Just $7.5 billion of the first $25 billion of ERA has been spent or obligated. While ERA helped nearly 1 million households through July, at least another 1.2 million submitted applications but have yet to receive aid. Many others struggle to complete applications due to complexity, inaccessibility, or documentation requirements. Some programs are successfully scaling up. New Jersey, Virginia, Texas, Massachusetts, and Washington, D.C., have all spent over half of their ERA 1. Six States have spent more than 30 percent, and several States have made major recent improvements. Dozens of cities have spent over 70 percent of their ERA 1. These programs make clear that success is possible. But they are outliers. Seventeen States and many localities have spent less than 10 percent of their first ERA allocation. Some were slowed down by State legislatures or city councils. A few received more ERA than needed due to Congress' faulty formula allocation. Many struggle with landlords' refusal to participate in programs. But the primary issue with slow ERA spending is that many programs are not following clear Treasury and White House guidance and are not adopting evidence-based best practices. Slow-spending ERA programs tend to do little outreach. They don't hire enough staff to process applications. They have long and complicated applications with overly burdensome documentation requirements. For example, fewer than 17 percent of programs explicitly allow renters to use self-attestation to document income or housing instability, this, despite Treasury guidance that has, since March, allowed self-attestation for all eligibility criteria. Only 28 percent of programs explicitly allow direct-to- tenant assistance, despite it being permissible and critical to keeping renters housed when landlords refuse to participate. It is unfortunately clear by now that if flexibilities and best practices remain optional, many programs will not adopt them. So, the Biden Administration should continue to use all available tools, including their ability to recapture and reallocate ERA funds, to require best practices in all programs. And Congress should consider statutory changes to turn flexibilities and best practices into requirements. Legislation introduced by Chairwoman Waters builds off of existing Treasury guidance, and addresses the root causes of slow ERA spending. NLIHC has deep reservations about allowing landlords to receive ERA without tenant involvement. The legislation provides important protections in such cases to lessen fraud or tenant harassment. These protections must remain and be expanded as the bill moves forward. Congressman McHenry's legislation would halt most program spending by first requiring Treasury to rescind and redo guidance, then requiring programs to make changes counter to best practices, and by prohibiting use of ERA funds for needed staffing or technology. The bill would ensure that the needs of many landlords and renters go unmet. There are proven and simple ways for ERA programs to expedite assistance: hire staff; do robust outreach; simplify applications; use self-attestations; and provide direct-to- tenant assistance. The best programs are already doing this. Those that aren't should course-correct as Texas, California, New York, and Connecticut have done, and as South Carolina and Arkansas announced recently that they will do. For those that don't or won't, both the Biden Administration and Congress should require these improvements. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Yentel can be found on page 107 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Ms. Yentel. And Mr. Winn, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to present your oral testimony. STATEMENT OF GILBERT WINN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, WINNCOMPANIES Mr. Winn. Good afternoon. Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and members of the committee, it is my privilege to appear before you today to speak on behalf of our organization, WinnCompanies, and the more than 300,000 residents who call our apartment communities home. Thank you for this invitation. My name is Gilbert Winn, and I am the CEO of Winn, a developer, owner, and manager of multifamily housing founded in Boston 50 years ago. WinnCompanies is the largest operator of affordable housing, and the sixth largest multifamily operator of housing in the country. We manage over 600 rental communities, on behalf of a diverse range of clients--private owners of all types, nonprofit groups, community development corporations, tenant- owned affordable co-ops, and even public housing authorities. We manage mixed-income communities with local housing programs or Federal programs like Section 8, or low-income housing tax credits. We manage naturally occurring affordable housing as well. We also manage more than 10,000 unrestricted market ratings. WinnCompanies works in 23 States, in diverse geographies, from the Northeast, to the South, to the West. Our company is also one of the nation's largest providers of housing-based community services. Why is this background important? Because it illustrates that we bring an informed firsthand perspective, covering nearly all constituencies of what is and what isn't working on the ground when it comes to emergency rental assistance, and the goals generally of housing stability and eviction diversion. As both an owner and an operator, we play a direct role on the ground in fulfilling the dual intent of the ERAP program, which is both to assist renters and to assist landlords. Today, I will first talk about our housing stability goals and the fundamental importance of rent collection in that endeavor. I will then detail the specific successes and challenges we faced in accessing the ERAP program. And I will conclude with our proposed revisions that we think should be urgently implemented to make it more efficient. While we are here to discuss the ERAP program, we all understand it is but one component of housing stability. In early 2020, WinnCompanies launched a holistic national housing stability program. The goal was to reduce non-payment rent evictions by 50 percent across our portfolio through a combination of upstream, consistent interventions. The result is that WinnCompanies has had zero evictions for nonpayment of rent since the start of the pandemic. These results, and our program, have been recognized by my fellow witnesses here at NMHC, and the National Low Income Housing Coalition. As we are all gathered here today, it should be no surprise that emergency rental assistance is the single-most important component of that housing stability program in avoiding evictions. We know this from experience, and we applaud this committee for recognizing the need for reforms. We understand that this $46 billion program was designed to assist both tenants and owners. This is not a choice between renters and profits. Rent is fundamental to the ability of our company and our clients, particularly our nonprofit owners, to operate and maintain existing apartment communities and to build affordable housing in the future. It is a virtuous ecosystem. In addition to mortgage payments and real estate taxes, as rent goes uncollected, variable operating costs that affect everybody's quality of life must be decreased, such as preventative maintenance, landscaping, security, trash pickup, and resident services. Staff hours at each property are cut if this happens, which means the paychecks of frontline workers are decreased. All in all, I am very proud of how the multifamily industry has stepped up during this pandemic. The vast majority of owners and operators are on the front lines, keeping homes safe and occupied. Now, in terms of ERAP, we have extended tremendous time, effort, and resources in order to make the rollout of the program as successful as possible. We have participated in 20 working groups across the country to design and administer the funds. We have participated in forums held by the apartment industry and the legal services community. At the State level, we have worked with leadership to address program glitches in portals and application processes. At the local level, we help convene our peers to share best practices. We have held 54 separate, 2-hour trainings to walk our team members through every step of their areas' individual ERA processes. In terms of tenant communication and partnership, we have established contacts with administrative teams, created marketing materials, and begun a near-constant tenant outreach campaign in every apartment community, including engaging with local churches, schools, youth organizations-- Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Winn, your time has expired. Thank you very much for your testimony. [The prepared statement of Mr. Winn can be found on page 99 of the appendix.] Chairwoman Waters. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions. Mr. Schwartz, Ms. Yentel, I am troubled by the number of landlords and renters who remain unaware of the availability of rental assistance. According to the Urban Institute, more than half of renters and 40 percent of landlords are still unaware of Federal assistance. I would like to share with you a little story about something that I was involved in just a week or so ago. I know a landlord with 5,000 units. I went to him to ask him what was going on with his rental units. He told me that only 40 percent of his renters had applied. I asked him why, and he said he did not know. And then I asked him, Have you ever thought about using your community rooms with a person, or persons, and a computer or so, to invite your renters to come to get assistance in applying for rental assistance? He said, no, they had not done that. I went a step further. I called Legal Aid, I put them together, and I taught him how to do the notices to pin to the doors to let people know that assistance was available now in the community area of one of the largest of his complexes, for them to come. On the first day, 90 renters showed up. Legal Aid showed up with organizers and one or two lawyers, and they assisted everybody who came that day in applying for rental assistance. Now, you talk a lot about what you have done, Mr. Winn. Have you seen anything like the operation that I just described to you? Mr. Winn. I'm sorry, Chairwoman Waters. Can you repeat that? Chairwoman Waters. Okay. Would anyone else like to respond to that? Ms. Yentel? Ms. Yentel. Yes, Chairwoman Waters, thank you. I have seen some communities doing that kind of robust and equitable outreach that you mentioned. That is exactly the kind of outreach that is needed in local communities. But there are many communities where that is not happening, and as you say, we are seeing a significant number of both landlords and tenants not being aware that emergency rental assistance is available in their communities, or not knowing how to access it. This could be a result of language barriers. It could be challenges with various access to technology, or it could be simply that the education, the outreach, is not happening. So, we urge program administrators to work with community- based organizations who have trusted relationships in some of the more marginalized communities where some of the greatest-- Chairwoman Waters. Okay, Ms. Yentel. Thank you very much. I want to move on to--Mr. Schwartz, have you seen the kind of operation that I just described to you, where the landlords use their community rooms, or their space, to invite in the renters with notices that they put on their door, and then they get the assistance? I added to it Legal Aid, because I brought Legal Aid in to do it, but I think the landlords ought to be thinking about doing it. What do you think? Mr. Winn. Yes. With our own experience, and I know our peers, other operators in our industry are opening up business centers. The people in most need, the lowest income, may not have access to computers or WiFi. The application process is very cumbersome. In your State of California, there are 18 pages of manual input, and it is very complex. A lot of our residents only speak Spanish, and a lot of the forms are only in English, so we have to bring bilingual employees on our team to help them translate it. A lot of the forms or the websites require downloading paperwork, like proof of loss of job, or paycheck stubs. A lot of the residents don't have scanners, so we have to help them scan it into the system--look, we are all motivated as landlords to assist our residents because we benefit from the ERAP as much as they do. But the system is so cumbersome that it involves a lot of manhours, and our industry is doing a great job shouldering that-- Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Schwartz. Do you think the self-attestations will help? And this is something we have worked on very closely with the Treasury. Do you think that will help? Mr. Schwartz. Absolutely. We are big proponents of it, with respect to proof of tenancy, where they don't have to download a copy of a lease--that is hard for a lot of our residents-- housing instability, self-attestation income, which means you would have to download a paycheck stub. All of these are barriers, and slow the system down. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Schwartz. I'm sorry, my time is up. And now, I will recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. McHenry, the ranking member of the committee, for 5 minutes. Mr. McHenry. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Last December, Congress enacted the rental emergency assistance program in a bipartisan way. And then in March, the Democrats did their partisan bill, and had a new rental assistance program. We have two separate rental assistance programs at this point, and Treasury has a set of rules that are different on implementing these programs. So my question to you, Mr. Winn, is, given how disastrous the rollout has been and the slow spending rates of getting money out the door to help renters, do you think it is better to combine these programs, number one; and number two, do you think the focus on getting people's back rent paid should be the primary view or the primary goal of the program? Mr. Winn. Yes, I agree on both. I think the consolidation of the programs will remove a lot of busy work and a lot of uncertainty for both the landlords and the residents. Also, the point of back rent is critical. A lot of landlords don't wish to participate in the program if they are only getting paid for the current delinquency. If somebody moved out and they can't get paid for that past delinquency, they are not going to be utilizing the program. And that is, in fact, what has been happening. There are many residents, who, when it comes time, are leaving with unpaid balances and are not able to complete applications. Mr. McHenry. Ms. Yentel, under this bill, H.R. 5196, I would ask how imposing both new regulatory and statutory conditions on landlords actually speeds up assistance to renters? Ms. Yentel. There are many ways that Chairwoman Waters' legislation would speed up assistance--by requiring self- attestation, by requiring direct-to-tenant assistance, by getting at the root causes of slow ERA spending. Unfortunately-- Mr. McHenry. So, how is that different? Direct-to-renter assistance, how is that different now than under this new bill? Ms. Yentel. It is currently optional, and only 28 percent of programs utilize it. So when landlords refuse to participate in a majority of programs-- Mr. McHenry. Okay. So, under this bill, Ms. Yentel, under 5196, how do you encourage landlords to participate when you are putting in place new hoops to get money that they are legally owed? How does that actually help? Ms. Yentel. The only place where new hoops, as you call it, are put in place--I would call them essential protections for tenants--are where we are changing the program to allow for direct-to-landlord assistance without any tenant involvement at all. These protections are essential to-- Mr. McHenry. Okay. But that is one change. Ms. Yentel. --limit tenant harassment. Mr. McHenry. So, how about another change here? The bill requires grantees to provide information to renters on how to sue a landlord if a landlord follows the rules and receives the assistance on their behalf. How does that actually encourage landlords to participate? Ms. Yentel. Well, it doesn't at all. What the legislation would do, again, only in cases where we are changing the programs to allow landlords to receive assistance without any tenant involvement at all, it would require assurances that the landlord is using those resources to pay the arrears that are owed, and that the tenant is no longer responsible for those arrears, which is why assurances-- Mr. McHenry. So what you are saying is that providing information on complaints against landlords helps expedite the distribution of assistance to households and families? Is that what you are saying? Ms. Yentel. What I am saying is that in cases where we change a program and allow for a landlord to receive assistance without the essential protection of tenant involvement in that application, that there be protections for those tenants and that there be protections against fraud. Mr. McHenry. And in the real world, landlords would think this is a great new program to participate in, to encourage the people renting from them to sue them. Ms. Yentel, I know you have a significant involvement with my Democrat colleagues on housing. Were you or any of your staff involved in the technical drafting of H.R. 5196? Ms. Yentel. In the technical drafting of it? No. That is certainly not our job. We have advised Chairwoman Waters-- Mr. McHenry. Advised, sure. Ms. Yentel. --and her staff about recommendations-- Mr. McHenry. Okay. And as president and CEO of your organization, I am curious if your organization stands to benefit financially if this bill is enacted? Ms. Yentel. No. Mr. McHenry. So, your organization would not receive any dollars under Section 6 of this bill? Ms. Yentel. I can't speak to what Section 6 is off the top of my head, but we receive zero Federal funding. We have no Federal contracts. We don't contract with States or localities-- Mr. McHenry. It is not a contract. And under this bill, it would change to nonprofit entities that primarily provide housing services would be eligible for these moneys. And so-- Ms. Yentel. We would be eligible, and we recommended that-- Mr. McHenry. --it raises the question. If you have certified--if you have testified that you will not receive a dime under this bill, we will make sure that we note that in the record. With that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Let us remember, the centerpiece of this program is such that it allows landlords for the first time to be able to apply for the rental assistance, and they have 10 days in which to notify the tenant. And they can talk in that time, and maybe during that time, the renter will say, ``Well, I will do it,'' but this is-- Mr. McHenry. Madam Chairwoman, is this your time or my time? Is this your time or my time to debate? Chairwoman Waters. The Chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from New York, Mrs. Maloney, who is also the Chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Reform, for 5 minutes. Mrs. Maloney. Thank you. Thank you all for your testimony today, and thank you, Chairwoman Waters, for holding this timely and very important hearing. As we have discussed, Congress provided nearly $50 billion in December, and in the American Rescue Plan, to help residents stay safely housed, and to be able to afford their rent. This was necessary relief, 100-percent essential, not just for the health and safety of these residents during a pandemic, but because a mass eviction crisis would have inflicted needless damage to our economy and to our families. Last week, New York Governor Hochul signed into law additional protections for New York residents, and included new resources for landlords and tenants to access rental assistance. New York law also extended the State eviction moratorium until January 15th. It is no secret that the rollout of the rental assistance programs hasn't gone as smoothly as Congress would have wanted, which is why I am so glad we have a great panel, to hear about your experiences and ways we can further improve and streamline the program to better serve renters and landlords alike. One of the issues I have been hearing about from my constituents is the dual nature of the application. In effect, you need both the landlord and the tenant to complete the application to receive assistance. Specifically, I have heard from constituents that many have tried seeking assistance, but that their landlords were not willing to apply. And I know the reverse has also been true. So I would like to ask Mr. Morris, we will start with you, you are on the front lines helping tenants with this program. Is this an issue you are seeing in Philadelphia with the tenants you are assisting? Mr. Morris. Thank you for that question. It has presented as an issue. There are two portions of the application: the landlord application; and the tenant application. If the landlord applies on behalf of a tenant, it generates an affidavit that the tenant has to sign. I do believe that creating the additional flexibility where the landlord would not need to go to the tenant to get the affidavit signed and then submit it will allow that landlord to get a direct payment themselves once they have made the necessary efforts to inform their tenants that the program exists and to get them to apply for funding. But it has been an issue. Mrs. Maloney. Thank you. Ms. Yentel, can you add, or can you speak to how this issue presents a problem, if it does, for tenants seeking assistance, and how the bill introduced by Chairwoman Waters would help address this problem? Ms. Yentel. Thank you. Requiring a program to have both landlord and tenant involvement when getting emergency rental assistance provides important safeguards against fraud and against tenant harassment, really important safeguards for the tenant. We have heard of cases where tenants are not able to complete their applications, and certainly, there have been cases where landlords have been refusing to accept emergency rental assistance when the application is approved and the money is presented to them. So, the solutions on incomplete applications by tenants comes back to simplifying applications, using self-attestation wherever possible, and requiring that all programs do these actions. On the landlord side, there is a whole variety of reasons why landlords seem to be refusing to participate. A solution to many of those challenges is to provide the assistance directly to the tenant, so that the tenant can pay the rent, and the landlord, if they don't want to be involved in a government program, doesn't have to be involved at all. Only 28 percent of programs are currently using direct-to- tenant assistance explicitly, and all should be required to use this essential safeguard as would happen under Chairwoman Waters' legislation. Mrs. Maloney. Thank you. My time has almost expired, so I yield back, and I thank you, Chairwoman Waters, for your leadership on this important program. We are working very, very hard to implement it on the ground across the country. Thank you. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from Missouri, Mrs. Wagner, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mrs. Wagner. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, but we are not working very hard to get this administered. Because you know what, the money is not getting out the door to the people who need it, after months and months and months and months. For far too long, struggling Americans, both renters and landlords in Missouri's 2nd Congressional District and beyond, have not received the assistance that Congress authorized. From what little data--I think the last was in July--that Treasury provided us since Congress has approved nearly $50 billion in rental assistance, only $4.8 billion, or 10 percent, of these funds have made it into the hands of those who need it most. It is clear to the American people that the Biden Administration has failed to distribute billions in rental assistance. Months ago, Republicans introduced legislation to cut through the bureaucratic red tape, to streamline this rental assistance program to get this money out the door to support hardworking Americans. However, Democrat leadership completely ignored this good- faith effort, and I think it is critical that Treasury Secretary Yellen take responsibility for the program's failure, and appear before this committee as we have requested on several occasions, to no avail, so that we can better understand what is keeping so many of America's tenants and landlords from receiving these funds in a timely manner. Instead of working in a bipartisan fashion, and incorporating the much-needed provision of Ranking Member McHenry's legislation, Democrats have been trying to shove through a bill, in the 11th hour, that is full of bureaucratic red tape without any input from across the aisle, and are needlessly putting families at risk of eviction and pushing mom-and-pop landlords out of business. We are not helping renters, and we are actively hurting landlords. Mr. Schwartz, Mr. Winn, COVID hit in March of 2020, which was 18 complete rent cycles ago. This means there may be some landlords who have not been paid a full month's rent in a year- and-a-half. What financial impact has COVID had on landlords to date, Mr. Winn? Mr. Winn. Thank you for that question. Currently, there are $37 million in accounts receivable and delinquency rents across our portfolio. Despite all of the efforts I testified about that we have done, only half of the residents have actually received the funding that they are eligible for, and the tenant-consent aspect of that, we feel is the largest barrier. We have done the communication. We have met with them. We have filled out the applications. We have handed them the complete applications, and, yet, 15,000 of our residents who are eligible have not received the assistance. Mrs. Wagner. And yet, we are sitting on over $40 billion, much of which was in the CARES Act back in last December that is still sitting there in this fund, not distributed. It is disgraceful. What incentives do you think, Mr. Winn, would make a meaningful impact in helping to deliver this emergency rental assistance to repay those debts? Mr. Winn. Very quickly, it would be informed consent as opposed to signatures by the tenant so that landlords can apply on their behalf. It would be bulk applications that landlords are able to submit and that are mandated to be approved by the ERAP administrators rather than just encouraged, a combining of the two programs to cut out bureaucracy. Mrs. Wagner. Yes. Mr. Winn. And I would say, really, the fourth one would be to make sure that when a unit is vacated, that that unit is still eligible for rental assistance, because that is where a lot of the outstanding delinquencies are. Mrs. Wagner. Thank you. The December effort, which was a bipartisan CARES Act to get the money to eligible households quickly and efficiently, was hastily undone with the creation of the Democrats' Emergency Rental Assistance 2 Program in March. And that, and the Dems' bill, that $1.9 trillion bill, was a second parallel program with similar purposes but different rules, timelines, and incentives. And most of all, what is most egregious, is that it pushed the end date of the Biden Administration's mismanaged program out to 2025--2025. We need rental assistance now, not in 2025. We have to the fix this program's bureaucratic problems and come together, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back my time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Sherman, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Investor Protection, Entrepreneurship, and Capital Markets, for 5 minutes. Let's get beyond political talking points. Let's legislate. Mr. Sherman. Absolutely. I think this is the hearing we should have, not a theatrical hearing where we bring in big names. And what we need is people who are on the ground who can help get this program to work better. That being said, this program is not the best example of government working together to help people. And those of us who want government to help people in need bear the rhetorical burden of showing that government can be effective. It is an emergency program, and an emergency program is one where you are trying to build a plane while you are flying it. It is not that easy to put something together in an emergency, but we should have done better, and I think with this hearing, we will. Mr. Schwartz, perhaps briefly you could tell us, what are the impediments faced by property owners when trying to utilize the Emergency Rental Assistance Program that have led some owners to not even participate in the program? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. We have talked about one of them, which is that owners would like to participate, but the resident doesn't want to participate, and so having that ability to apply on behalf of the resident is super important. Also, what we have seen is strings attached, like additional moratoriums that you accept assistance but you are subject to a new moratorium. Landlords are very reluctant to sign up for more strings attached to accepting the assistance. Another one is rent--or debt cancellation, where you receive assistance that is below what you are owed and that settles the debt. We don't want to add barriers, and those are two things that are in this bill that we think will make landlords reluctant to participate in the program. And the best solution to solving this is getting the ERAP dollars in the hands of the residents and the landlords. Mr. Sherman. I think, also, this crisis will determine whether other people get involved in investing and building new apartment buildings. And to put people in a position where they have to pay the mortgage and they can't collect the rent is not going to encourage people to go into this business. Ms. Yentel, we have almost half of the renters in this country paying more than 30 percent of their income on rent. We need to build 328,000 new apartments every year. We are not even close to that. The COVID crisis has slowed construction. What policies would you suggest to create an environment that incentivizes additional housing development and the preservation of housing we have now? Ms. Yentel. You are absolutely right that the pandemic exacerbated a preexisting affordable housing crisis. Many of the same renters who struggled to keep up with rent during the pandemic, also struggled pre-pandemic, and they will continue to struggle post-pandemic, unless and until Congress invests in long-term sustained solutions to build a housing social safety net in our country. And many of the investments that are included in the reconciliation bill that Chairwoman Waters released are the kind of investments that are needed: a major expansion of rental assistance to preserve our country's public housing infrastructure; to build more apartments affordable to lowest- income people through the National Housing Trust Fund; and to incentivize or require local governments to reduce or remove, eliminate restrictive local zoning that inhibits the supply of any kind of apartments and especially affordable apartments and drives up costs for everyone. Mr. Sherman. Everybody is for more apartments, but not near them. It is a problem that local government faces. Mr. Schwartz, many owners from large to small have been carrying these rental balances that they haven't collected. They still have to pay their mortgages, et cetera. What does that ultimately mean for the solvency of property owners, their ability to continue to be in the rental housing business, and should we be concerned about the overall market and systemic effects? Mr. Schwartz. Yes, we should be concerned. There have been no reciprocal moratoriums with property tax bills, or garbage collection bills. Those are all due in full. The solution to that is the ERAP and getting that in the hands of the landlords, because there is financial distress. And we have seen that the most with smaller landlords who can't pay their bills. Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Schwartz, the time has expired. The gentleman from Texas-- Mr. Sherman. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. --Mr. Sessions, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Sessions. Madam Chairwoman, thank you very much. And the opportunity to have our witnesses here today is appreciated. Mr. Morris, I would like to perhaps engage you first, if I could. The legislation, when it passes Congress, is given to an Administration who then offers and makes the legislation conform to their ability to offer guidance for things to work the way the legislation is designed. Can you please tell me your working relationship on a local basis with the Administration people, whether it be in HUD or whether it be in Treasury, about the guidance that you have received and what feedback you have given back to them? And the reason why I am asking this is because we have no one from the Administration who can defend themselves on this, so I am interested in your answers about that guidance and what you have told them back about making this work better. Mr. Morris. At least from the perspective of rental assistance here in Philadelphia, there was an existing Philadelphia eviction prevention project that had been working on these issues from at least 2017. So when the pandemic hit, we started engaging both our local city council and State legislative leaders and the Pennsylvania Housing Finance Authority, who had the first round of rental assistance, on making the program more effective, eliminating barriers that would basically discourage participation. So, we have been involved in that process through and through. And at least in building out rental assistance, every time an issue is brought forward to us by tenants or landlords with whom we engage, we provide that feedback to the agency and see how we can address that. Self-attestation has been a major issue, and we have gotten to the place where landlords or landlords' counsel can now provide letters to agencies that verify tenancies and show how much is owed without additional barriers being put in place. So, we have been working in constant communication with our local representatives to try and improve the program every step of the way. Mr. Sessions. Mr. Morris, in your locality in Pennsylvania, were you given the flexibility to amend what we have heard would be the paperwork that we heard in California is not in any language but English--were you given that authority and responsibility ahead of time to change that, or was that just part of the bill that said, only provide this in English for the application? Mr. Morris. I believe we were given that authority, and we also requested additional guidance from the Federal Government through Treasury for additional flexibility around how we administer the program. So we are in constant communication to make those flexibilities happen. I believe, just generally, in terms of language access, we are required to provide the application in more than English. We also work with the Neighborhood Action Council to make sure that there is an agency out in the community that can target individuals or create another location where someone can go and apply and get that assistance. Mr. Sessions. Yes, and thank you. And, Mr. Morris, perhaps you are providing the feedback today to us, which is why not only Mr. McHenry but also Mrs. Wagner are saying that we believe that what should have happened today is that we actually heard from the program administrators about the flexibility that they are providing across the country and following the Federal law when they see, for instance, in California, where the applications are in English only, as the testimony today was given to us. And this is disturbing to us, because in the State of Texas, and I am sure that what has happened is Ms. Yentel's feedback helps us to see who is successful, and there are characteristics of success that the Administration would see or those administering these programs, and then to know specifically what they were doing from receiving feedback after they see perhaps those that were more effective than others. And, Mr. Morris, I just want you to know that you and Ms. Yentel and Mr. Schwartz are providing us information, but we are interested in a follow-up on this. I am personally interested in what kind of success you are finding with feedback from the Treasury Department in making this work, and whether they actually are a hindrance or a help, whether they are attempting to provide you with the needed feedback that I would say would come from the guidance that they would need to have and see from across the country. So, Madam Chairwoman, I would request that, as Mr. McHenry and Mrs. Wagner have suggested, that we need to dig down with information about providing the guidance from a national perspective of not only the Secretary of the Treasury but their feedback about-- Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Sessions, your time has expired. Mr. Sessions. --how we would make this work. I thank the gentlewoman, and I will yield back my time. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Madam Chairwoman, I am very proud to associate myself with your legislation. Your legislation does what I have been calling for, which is to ensure that the rent is paid. The tenants will have the opportunity to access funds, but also, the landlords will have an opportunity to access these funds, and they can access funds for back rent. Some things bear repeating, Madam Chairwoman--Landlords can access funds for back rent. I think this is exceedingly important for, yes, all landlords, but especially for the mom- and-pops who have had to bear the burden of maintaining property over so many months now. So, I proudly associate myself with this program, and I would thank you for also looking into how we can inform people. A good many of the people I represent are not knowledgeable about programs. This program that you are providing now, this legislation, would inform people of what is available to them. I think this is most beneficial. And, finally, the landlords will have an opportunity to not only get back rent, but rent for some time out into the future. The total sum of months can be up to 24 months. So, this is an outstanding program. I would like to, if I may, Madam Chairwoman, mention one additional thing. There are many people who are still suffering as a result of the Community Development Block Grant Disaster Recovery (CDBG-DR) funds that have not been properly allocated, and Ms. Yentel has some knowledge of what is going on with CDBG-DR, because she happens to be associated with some 800 national State and local organizations calling for codification of a program. So, Ms. Yentel, I would like to yield time to you to explain why there is such broad support for the codification of CDBG-DR and to a statute at this time. Ms. Yentel. Sure. Thank you, Congressman Green. The CDBG Disaster Recovery Grant Program is one of the most essential resources that communities receive after disasters, but the program is not permanently authorized, which means that every time there is a disaster, it needs to be reauthorized essentially through the appropriations bills, the supplemental bills that provide funding. This slows down the process pretty significantly of getting resources to communities, and it means that very often, the rules for the program get rewritten each time, creating a lot of uncertainty to local communities when what they most need is certainty and money to start helping people repair and get back on their feet after disasters. The Reforming Disaster Recovery Act, your legislation, would permanently authorize the bill, which would in and of itself mean resources would reach communities faster. It would also require data sharing across programs, which would help to identify gaps in need and ensure that those are being met. And it would allow for much greater public participation in disaster recovery efforts. Altogether, it could help to lead to more equitable and complete disaster housing recovery in communities hit by natural disasters. Mr. Green. A second question for you-- Ms. Salazar. Excuse me, Mr. Green? If I may jump in on that, Mr. Green. I am so sorry to interrupt you. Mr. Green. I will yield to you. Ms. Salazar. Thank you so much, Mr. Green. I just needed to note that the residents of Oregon are still waiting for disaster recovery dollars from last year's historic and tragic wildfires. So, I just wanted to lend my support to Ms. Yentel's statement. Mr. Green. Well, let me extend my sympathies to the people that you represent, as well as the people in Texas whom I represent. We have a similar circumstance, and I believe Mr. Cleaver would attest to a circumstance that he is having to negotiate as well. But let me just ask this of you, Ms. Salazar, since you are now speaking to me. This self-attestation seems to be pretty important, and it seems to be something that the chairwoman has placed in this legislation. Explain how important this self- attestation is? Ms. Salazar. Thank you so much, Mr. Green. You are absolutely right that tenant self-attestation has proven to be incredibly helpful to expedite the delivery of rental assistance. I will also note that it is a big shift for many program administrators who are charged with the important work of preventing fraud and running these programs with Federal and State and local oversight. And so, that is why we are supportive of the safe harbor provision in Chairwoman Waters' legislation that would provide that assurance to program administrators that self-attestation is appropriate, useful, and encouraged in the program. Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. As I yield back, on a scale of 1 to 10, I would give your program, your legislation an 11. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you, Mr. Green. The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Posey, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Posey. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Winn, you were talking about your outreach, I guess through some church groups and others in your opening statement, and you got cut off. If you would like to finish it up now, I would be proud to give you the time. Mr. Winn. I appreciate that, and I will do that. So, despite all of that outreach, these are the statistics. To date, WinnCompanies has been able to work with 15,000 households to apply for $22 million of ERAP support. Of this amount, $17 million has been formally approved. And I recount all of our efforts not to boast about what we did, but to make the point that despite all of these herculean efforts that a company of our size can actually perform, we still have 15,000 additional households who are eligible for ERAP financial support, but who have not yet participated because of program inefficiencies. It leads me to conclude that smaller landlords, without the possibility of the resources that we enjoy, must find themselves in an even more untenable and more unfair position. It leads to the conclusion that something needs to change. Despite our efforts, we, as I mentioned, and our clients are still carrying $37 million in delinquent rent. Within that universe of households, 2,400 households who are eligible for the assistance otherwise are not able to participate because of more restrictive income guidelines in certain States. On top of this is the 15,000 eligible households that I mentioned who are noncommunicative, despite our best efforts, and for good reasons and for understandable reasons-- traumatized by medical or financial hardships, language barriers, sometimes fearing insurmountable rental delinquencies, or technology barriers. Some are confused by mixed messaging on eviction moratorium. Some simply just don't trust the system. Regardless, the unfortunate result is that too many of the very folks that the ERA Program seeks to help are those who are not benefiting from the program. So, the real-world solutions are the direct tenant applications with informed consent to the tenants for 10 days. But we also believe there shouldn't be additional restrictions placed on that without matching funding. Said differently, if there were to be an agreement that if you take these funds, you have to stably house residents for 120 more days, we ask for a requirement as rather than a suggestion that rental assistance funds be made available to match that obligation. We also want to make sure that this happens, so it is not a major deterrent for landlords across the country to enter into what is otherwise a great program. We should mandate the allowance of landlords to directly apply for funds and make sure that those are processed quickly. We want to make sure that the programs are combined and that the eligibility is raised to 24 months rather than 18 months. And we want to make sure that there is an implementation mandate for bulk applications by landlords rather than just the allowance of it, because we have seen across the States we work in that many of the ERAP administrators will not allow bulk applications even though it is permitted by the legislation. I just want to end by saying that I believe that the work of this committee has been excellent. I believe these amendments are required. I don't believe this is a political issue. I believe this is a practical issue. And if we can reach more people, we are all better for it. Mr. Posey. Thank you. Mr. Morris. Mr. Posey--I 'm sorry, Mr. Posey, if I may just add to that really briefly. While I support all of the proposed changes that Mr. Winn has just highlighted, I think it is critical that tenants are informed, as the bill proposes to do, that something has been done on their behalf so that they can govern themselves accordingly and that the landlord-tenant relationship can be preserved on a forward-going basis. Thank you. Mr. Posey. Do any other witness want to weigh in on this? I have just wondered from the beginning, and I even mentioned it at the last hearing, why we wouldn't turn to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, that has a network in place already to deliver assistance. I wonder why we would create a new program in the Treasury to distribute rental assistance through a network of guarantees that are yet to be put in place. If we were going to start giving out free petroleum, I think the place to start would be through existing gas stations. And I see my time has expired. I yield back. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and Insurance, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Cleaver. First of all, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for introducing this legislation that is so desperately needed. And, Mr. Morris, in your statement, there is a part in there that I think everybody should make sure that they focus on, where you say something like, all around the country tenants and landlords are experiencing widespread delays in processing the rental assistance application. And you go on and you talk about the number of people in Philadelphia whose applications have not been processed and so forth. Do you remember that statement? Mr. Morris. Yes. Mr. Cleaver. Okay. The reason I want to focus on that is I think what you are suggesting, and very strongly, I think, and it fits in with what we are doing here, that we have to reduce the delays, all of the barriers. And one of them, I think that my experience is that the cities are trying to get the money out the door, but you have to make sure that the grantees and their partners are able to complete the application process, and sometimes that is a challenge. I think, and you may or may not agree, that anything that we can do to help get the money out the door, including, in some instances, for example, maybe getting the Hispanic Chamber, the Black Chamber, and the Asian Chamber all working to help interpret the application process for people. Here in Kansas City, we have run into people who say, ``I don't know what''--``I didn't understand that. I don't know how to do this.'' Or in one case, one of my staffers and I had a huge meeting, and somebody said, ``I didn't apply because I didn't know I was supposed to apply, or I thought somebody else would apply.'' Shouldn't we do everything possible to make sure that--I think you are at 55,000 more. I don't know the exact number of unprocessed applications. Do you think that there are some things that we should include in this legislation, that I think are absolutely a necessity if we are going to get this program running at the optimum level? What do you think, sir? Mr. Morris. There are a few things that I would say. At least in the context of Philadelphia, we have already spent 85 percent of our ERAP funding over several allocations. So, there is the need for more money to flow into the City to address those applications that are still yet to be processed, and that is a significant financial constraint that the program is going to face. In addition to that, making the program more flexible through self-attestation, which we have already talked about. I believe the first version of rental assistance required income to be verified through the Department of Labor on a Federal level, which created significant delays, so a lot of that money was not spent in a meaningful way, so to the extent that we can eliminate those barriers and that additional paperwork and create additional sites and points for people to interact with the program. Outreach is going to be very critical in this process, and the best way to reach people is in their communities, and that might require that programs invest in having someone go out to apartment complexes and inform them that there is a process available to you to apply. It might involve putting mailers-- digital mailers in everyone's inbox, because most landlords use portals to communicate with their tenants at this point in time. So, there is a lot that can be done in terms of outreach, and there should be a kind of a no-wrong-door policy. If someone shows up to apply, they should be assisted. And documents are harder to get at this point in time, because a lot of the Federal agencies--the Department of Health and Human Services, Social Security, all of those agencies are now remote. So getting paperwork is a significant barrier to tenants, which leads to delays on the side for landlords. So, to the extent that we can eliminate any red tape and make it easier for both parties to apply and no one gets turned away and any lapse of information is not necessarily held against the tenant or a landlord, that is the best way to go forward, and make the program easier to use and not harder. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you very much. Very quickly, it is in the language of our legislation--not this legislation but the overall legislation--that municipalities can eliminate some of the normal requirements in order to get this out quickly. Many cities, including my own, I think--you can't expect the head of a department to do something and later be criticized for it--end up saying, okay, we need a 60-day period for a response to an RFP or something. There has to be a way that we get the word to all of the municipalities. Maybe the mayors could be the ones who actually sign for the participation of this program so they can understand that the regular processes are relaxed in order to get the money out quickly. Is that-- Chairwoman Waters. Thank you so very much. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver. Your time has expired. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. You get a 13 from my perspective. Mr. Green didn't go high enough. It is a 13. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you so very much. Mr. Huizenga, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Huizenga. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I appreciate my friend, Mr. Cleaver, getting into some substance of these bills. And I do want to commend the Chair for attempting to deal with some issues that we have some mutual concerns about, and I want to start off with what I think are some unified views of some of the problems. We all agree that in 2020, when Congress appropriated this money for the ERA 1, it was to eliminate rental arrears accumulated by COVID-impacted low-income households. And then there is, of course, the additional $21.55 billion in ERA 2 in March of 2021. I think we actually all pretty much agree as well that there was a failure to get money out the door that not only put renters at risk of eviction, but it also hurt mom-and-pop landlords, who are more likely to own and operate affordable rental units. The other thing I think that is pretty unifying is that Treasury--we all understand Treasury has failed to responsibly administer more than $46 billion of Congress-appointed funds and to eliminate these arrears. That is why we are sort of in this spot. Here is where maybe we diverge and we don't agree as much. Many of us view that the changes made in this program by the Biden Administration actually may have punished landlords and, frankly, scared many of them out of the program. Many of us also believe that Secretary Yellen has failed to take responsibility for the program's failures and shortcomings, disregarding requests to have opportunities to have these questions addressed to her by this committee and by others and by allowing her to bypass the statutory obligations to testify. And, frankly, many of us believe that, instead of fixing the program, the proposed changes would create even more bureaucracy, add new burdens, and will scare off more landlords, steer funds away from COVID-impacted low-income households, and remove protections to combat fraud. Now, I understand that there is a real need that we all have to deal with this, and I will take the Chair's request to say that we need to legislate. I will note that I can see if the Trump Administration had so badly bungled this program, there would be a natural desire of my friends on the other side to hold them accountable, and that is what we are here trying to do with the Biden Administration. So, let's talk a little bit about the bills themselves. And, again, I commend the Chair for addressing specifically the ability of landlords to go and get some remuneration when their tenants won't sign off. Now, here is the key: Some remuneration. And in my view, I believe this has been a legal taking. The takings clause, the takings concept is, you forced me to do something that legally I didn't have to do, but you forced me to do it, so therefore, you need to owe me and you owe me the obligation of what I legally own. In the Chair's particular bill, it requires landlords who submit applications without a signature of a tenant to accept any amount awarded to them as satisfaction of the entirety of the back rent that is owed back to March 2020. It requires landlords who accept assistance, including arrearages, without renter consent to agree to an individual 4- month eviction moratorium for that tenant beginning upon the date the assistance is received, so an additional 4 months. It binds landlords who do not accept assistance without renter consent to comply with, ``any conditions,'' imposed by the Secretary to ensure that renters, ``remain stably housed,'' with no end date for such conditions. It requires grantees to prioritize applications of tenants over those of landlords submitting with no-signature applications. It requires landlords who receive assistance to, ``set aside and vacate any past eviction order from an assisted tenant,'' and to, ``agree to seal any eviction filing, meaning it never happened.'' We can't acknowledge that. It removes accountability in protections that exist to combat fraud. It prohibits grantees from requiring applicants to submit proof of a written lease. It removes the tenant income verification by a landlord. We could go on and on. And, again, while I commend the other side for realizing we have an issue, it seems to me these handcuffs really are not going to get to that final goal and objective. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. Mr. Huizenga, your time has expired. Thank you so very much. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Foster. Am I audible and visible here? Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Foster, we can hear you. Mr. Foster. Thank you. Mr. Morris, I was glad to learn that Philadelphia is proudly one of the cities that has legislated a right to counsel for tenants facing evictions. This is obviously monumental in a city where over 90 percent of tenants facing evictions were legally unrepresented, compared to 81 percent of landlords who typically have attorneys. So, although the pandemic has cast an unforeseeable and incomparable skew on the success of such a program, I imagine that ensuring legal representation for tenants facing evictions would greatly reduce the level of unjust evictions or evictions in general. So, Mr. Morris, can you speak about the extreme importance of having legal representation in eviction cases? And more broadly, could you explain why organizations like Community Legal Services, Inc., or the Legal Services Corporation nationally, are vital to protecting marginalized people, especially during times like this? Mr. Morris. Thank you for that question, and I would be happy to. I think it is critical, especially now in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, that tenants be informed of their rights and protections that exist in any sort of eviction case. Evictions have long-term consequences for tenants beyond just being displaced. If you displace a family, you displace a child out of school, you potentially displace an adult out of work, and you can pack a family in poverty for generations to come, because the cost of a forced move is both what you owe to the landlord that is evicting you, the cost of relocation and the cost of finding new housing, and any collateral consequences that come from being displaced in that period. To the extent that a tenant can be informed and given the ability to self-advocate just as a bare minimum, to know that you have rights as it relates to funds that have been received on your behalf, your landlord has been paid and made whole and you are allowed to stay, that is critical information that tenants otherwise often don't know unless they are connected with legal services or other representation. Sometimes, there are city protections or ordinances that come into play that require landlords to meet certain standards of housing, just like minimum housing standards that tenants have to live in and then pay rent. If those standards are not being met, then the landlords should not be able to use the court to both collect rent and evict a tenant out of those types of housing units. And with the affordable housing crisis that is going on in the United States, it is critical now more than ever that tenants are equally as informed or have access to representation, because a courtroom is a traumatic place. You enter a courtroom where you know that you owe someone a debt. Your perspective is, I don't have the ability to pay this money, but I also have nowhere to go with me, my children, and everyone else in my household on a normal day, and then you add the pandemic to that and that is significantly more of a pressing issue. And as has been shown, and as I put in my testimony, the majority of people facing evictions in the City of Philadelphia are single parents, most predominantly Black and Brown females who are already living in poverty, and the poverty is exacerbated by the loss of income. They are more likely to work in industries where there is sporadic unemployment or these industries have been directly impacted by the pandemic. They are forced to be frontline workers or workers who are at a greater risk just by health morbidities for getting COVID-19 and taking that into their household where they may have vulnerable family members. So the goal is always to empower tenants to be able to make decisions, and to the extent that we can balance the playing field and create greater flexibility for those tenants, that is always the goal. No one knows more than an individual who is-- Mr. Foster. Yes, excuse me. So, you would consider that adequate funding for Legal Services Corporation for the explicit purpose of assisting tenants during this sort of situation is really an essential element for ensuring fair housing infrastructure? Mr. Morris. It is essential, and it is highly critical for the continued success of the rental assistance program, because someone has to be there to assist tenants in holding landlords accountable, not from the perspective of making sure that landlords can't use the court system, but making sure that they comply with any requirements that have been put in place that protect tenants and allow them to remain housed in the long- term. Mr. Foster. Yes. And do you think that having an expectation of legal representation on both sides of an eviction dispute is likely also to be a useful gate in preventing fraud, just that you have a lawyer who has his law license on the line if he aids and abets fraud? Are we likely to get a lot of the fraud concerns addressed that way as well? Mr. Morris. I believe you will get a lot of the fraud concerns addressed that way, and you will avoid a tenant feeling unsure or unsafe about trying to communicate with their landlord with the threat of a large balance hanging over their head if they have an advocate that can stand with them and ensure their legal protection. Mr. Foster. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Foster. Your time has expired. The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Barr, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Barr. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I would like to echo the sentiments of Ranking Member McHenry and some of my other colleagues that I am troubled that Secretary Yellen is not here to testify on this program. The Majority invited Secretary Fudge to testify before the committee almost 2 months ago, which was somewhat informative but gravely insufficient for the gravity of the situation. Here we are today with another hearing on the same topic to discuss why less than 11 percent of the funds appropriated by Congress almost a year ago have been used to support renters and landlords, yet the responsible party remains absent from our witness lineup. Congress directed Treasury to be the primary steward of these funds and to operate the program in such a way that it is just struggling renters and landlords. Yet, despite her direct responsibility for this bungled operation, Secretary Yellen has not testified before this committee, and the Majority has not even invited her to do so. While I am sure our witnesses today will be able to provide some helpful insight, we do need answers from the ultimate decision-maker and the party responsible for this total mess, and that is Secretary Yellen. Another preliminary comment, and this is maybe a different take from my colleagues on both my side of the aisle and on the other side of the aisle, yes, we need to expedite the emergency assistance. That is why Congress passed it. But I hear a lot of talk in today's hearing about landlords, about tenants, and they have very important interests. But there is someone that nobody has been talking about here in this hearing, and that is the hardworking taxpayer and the taxpayers' sons and daughters and granddaughters and grandsons who are incurring mountains of debt with this exploding welfare state. And I think what we are really talking about and hearing about today is not just the incompetence of the Biden Administration itself, but this program proves that big government welfare programs are ineffective and they are a recipe for waste, fraud, and abuse. The breathtaking incompetence that we see here and the waste and the delays and the open invitation for fraud is a direct indictment of expansion of the Federal welfare bureaucracy. Now, I want to ask Mr. Winn a question here. Feedback we have heard from landlords across the country, including small landlords who own only a handful of properties, suggests that the ERA programs are difficult to access because of bureaucratic red tape and preconditions that disincentivize participation. Mr. Winn, how can we improve the ERA programs to make them more accessible for small landlords? How might the changes under the Majority's bill, which actually adds reds tape for landlords, affect participation in the program? Mr. Winn. I believe that, as always, there is some solution in the middle. And I believe that the changes in the Majority bill by and large can help as long as we are not also adding restrictions. What I mean by that is, the bulk application processes where a landlord can say, a small landlord can say, all of my eight tenants can apply for assistance, I can submit as a landlord directly self-attestation about things like income. That will greatly cut down on the red tape. Mr. Barr. Yes, I hear you, and I am sympathetic to bulk applications and landlord applications. But, again, I am going to return--and I want to expedite these funds. And you haven't heard this today from any Members on either side of the aisle, but I am concerned about the taxpayer. This self-attestation idea concerns me a lot. The taxpayer is--we are talking about nearly $50 billion, and we are going to just allow landlords and tenants to just self-attest without any documentation of income or job? We have 10.5 million unfilled job openings in America, and the reason is that we are paying people to not work. We can't just continue to ask the taxpayers to subsidize people to live on the taxpayers' dime. Why can't we have just simple documentation, allow landlords to apply for tenants, have sole protections for taxpayers who are getting fleeced? Mr. Winn. I would say, one of the aspects of the original bill is also audits that are allowed at the State or administrative level. So to your point of fraud, I think that if people are committing fraud, those audits hopefully will catch that. Mr. Barr. Let me just say, in conclusion, that the solution to the Biden Administration's incompetence is not to dishonor taxpayers by making waste, fraud, and abuse in this program even easier. Taxpayers need to have confidence that the renters who can afford rent are not just taking advantage of this program, reducing funds available for those who actually are eligible and who actually are experiencing housing instability. And I think some of these reforms in the chairwoman's bill make fraud not just likely but guaranteed. And, with that, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Paying these landlords is not waste, it is not fraud, and it is not abuse. I will now call on Mr. Casten, the gentleman from Illinois, who is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Casten. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you to our witnesses. I have learned a ton through this hearing, and I appreciate you all taking the time to do this. Some of my questions are COVID-specific, and some of them are about sort of the broader sort of landlord-tenant issues that are going on. And, Mr. Winn, I would like to start with you, if I could. If I have heard you right, you said you have $37 million in accounts receivable delinquency in your books? Mr. Winn. [Nonverbal response.] Mr. Casten. I see you nodding, okay. I will take that as a yes. Help me understand, how much did that increase during COVID? How much were you carrying 18 months ago compared to the $37 million now? Mr. Winn. That is a good question. It has fluctuated. The $37 million that goes across our entire portfolio, including our clients, has fluctuated. It is definitely higher post-COVID than it was pre-COVID. We have seen statistically about a 5- percent drop in rental receipts because of COVID, and on a portfolio of 100,000 apartments, that can add up pretty quickly. One of the interesting things to note is that the average balance of a tenant in our portfolio is $1,400 of delinquency, which is interesting because it is a fairly low number, but that is also because of the affordable nature of our portfolio. I would imagine if someone's portfolio was skewed to the market, that probably doubles to about $3,000. Mr. Casten. I seem to be frozen. Can you all hear me still? Chairwoman Waters. We can hear you now. Mr. Casten. Can you all still hear me? Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Casten, you are on. Mr. Casten. Sorry. We were frozen there for a second. Can you estimate--are we talking about a 5-percent increase? A 10-percent increase? How much has it gone up during COVID, just a quick answer, if you could? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. And I can answer too from our portfolio's experience, but one thing I would say is our delinquency is about 3 times as high during COVID as it was before. Mr. Casten. Okay. Since you picked up, Mr. Schwartz, and I apologize for my IT issues here, how much of that are you carrying on your books? When you borrow, you have this asset on your books for whatever that receivable is. How much is either your bank or your auditor--how much are they typically writing that down? Are you carrying 80 cents on the dollar, 50 cents on the dollar? How much are they writing off? Mr. Schwartz. We have the job, our accounting department, of how much do we write off. We are being optimistic that we won't have to write much of it off because of emergency rental assistance, and so we are reluctant to write off that right now. But if we don't get the assistance, we will have to write that off. Mr. Casten. Okay. Ms. Yentel, then, speaking broadly, beyond COVID, particularly for low- and moderate-income tenants, let's say they get behind, they miss a payment, they have lost their job and then they get it back, how often are they able to become current, and how often are those tenants just sort of carrying that debt sort of in perpetuity even though they are staying current on their rent? Ms. Yentel. Right. It is a really good, important question, because many of the tenants who are behind on rent are very low or extremely low income. They worked before the pandemic, during the pandemic, and will be working after the pandemic. They are many of the frontline workers who initially lost their jobs or lost hours of work. They lost wages. They fell behind on rent. Even as they are employed now, it is difficult even pre- pandemic. Many of them work at the lowest-wage jobs. They are not able to make rent. They are certainly not able to pay back arrears that are owed without assistance. Many tenants during the pandemic made a lot of really difficult tradeoffs. They borrowed money. They paid rent on their credit cards. They stopped buying store-bought food, which is why we saw such an increase in food pantries. Mr. Casten. I am sorry to interrupt, but I want to get just two more questions in. Either Ms. Yentel or Mr. Morris, just quickly, can you comment on what impact does that have on their credit score? If they are carrying this rent that they can't pay even though they are staying current going forward, is that a permanent hit on their credit score when they first prepay utilities, and what does that mean practically? Ms. Yentel. Yes. Yes, there are all kinds of harmful impacts that come both from carrying debt and having poor credit scores. It makes it more difficult for them to get loans that they might need in the future. They use credit cards again to pay for things that they don't have the cash for. And evictions as well are--a single eviction filing on a tenant's record stays with them for years and harms their ability to get affordable housing in the future. Mr. Casten. I am out of time, but as you can just tell, and I would welcome all of you to follow up, I am trying to make this connection, and I don't know what this is, but for all of you on both sides of this, if the landlords are carrying bad debt that is affecting their ability to get credit, and the tenants are carrying credit scores that are affecting their ability to get credit, how do we bridge that gap from a policy perspective? Thank you very much. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Williams, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I want to thank all of you for coming here today and answering all of these questions. And I can tell you that every landlord I talk to about this pot of money has been frustrated with how slowly it has been getting to people in need. As much as we need to ensure that renters are taken care of, we cannot forget the landlords. They have financial obligations to handle as well. This money could be a lifeline, but so far it has failed to live up to what it was supposed to do. So, Mr. Schwartz, could you talk--and you have done so well today--about some of the hardships that your member companies faced as a result of this eviction moratorium? Mr. Schwartz. Sure. And one thing I would just point out is that Texas is a model State for distributing-- Mr. Williams of Texas. Yes, I am going to talk about that here shortly. Mr. Schwartz. Okay. Good. Yes, the moratorium has created a lot of problems in our industry. One problem I would point out is it is a contributor to rent inflation. Someone suggested there could be 1 million units out in the country that are non- rent paying. That has been taken out of the supply when demand is surging. Economics 101 says you are going to get big price increases, and that is an unintended consequence of the moratoriums. They have caused landlords to have an inability to pay all of their bills or to have to cut back on maintenance and keeping up their properties. It has been a very challenging environment, when you have residents who haven't paid in 18 months. And there is some confusion with moratoriums. The residents, in some cases, think it is a rent holiday, and so they choose to spend their money elsewhere rather than pay their rent. And so this bill, we think, is important if the effect of the bill is emergency rental assistance in the hands of people who have arrearages and want to stay in the community so they can continue to pay rent. But the moratoriums ultimately causes housing instability and creates massive debt on behalf of the residents and problems with the landlord. Mr. Williams of Texas. Okay. Thank you. I am also concerned that all of the government interference into mom-and-pop landlords during the pandemic will lead to a greater consolidation within the industry. Most landlords that I talk to are not massive corporations, and do not have access to huge lines of credit when things get tough, but only have a few apartment units they are able to maintain and rent out to the public. So when these people stop receiving rent payments, and with the Federal assistance stuck in bureaucratic limbo, many will not have any other option but to sell their properties. Mr. Winn, how will the speed of these funds getting out the door help prevent industry consolidation and ensure that mom- and-pop landlords can once again thrive with their property? Mr. Winn. I think it is a great point and a real concern. And nobody wants to see ma-and-pa landlords go under because of bureaucracy or because of process. So I really do think, as you have said, the answer is in your question, which is the sooner we can get the money to those who need it, the better. And I think the bills that are being discussed do a good job of that. But they do not do a perfect job of that. And one of the things that we need to figure out is how to incent those small landlords to actually use this program, not to layer on restrictions that are burdensome to them, such as making sure that they would forgive rents or partially forgive rent that isn't covered by the rental assistance funding. I think that would disincent small landlords, and that might have the effect that you are discussing. Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you. I have limited time here. Mr. Schwartz, I will keep this one simple. What is my great State of Texas doing right that other States around the country should mimic and copy? Mr. Schwartz. I have this information from my team on the ground in Texas. You are using a software called Neighborly Software, which is a best in class, and so I would advise the committee to follow some best-in-class best practices. It is a user-friendly platform. It can bulk load applications, so landlords who have a large number of units can bulk load it. It has great technical support, and you can actually get someone on the phone there pretty much anytime, so they have been great to work with. And it has real-time tracking of the status of the payment, so you can see what has been paid and what hasn't real-time. Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you, and God bless Texas. And I yield back, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from Iowa, Mrs. Axne, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mrs. Axne. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you to our witnesses for being here. I want to start with a little bit of background for our witnesses. We have a couple of main rental assistance programs here in Iowa, and there is a local program that has been doing a really good job. It has Polk County and the City of Des Moines working together on it, and they have actually allocated all of the funds from the first round. But, at the same time, Iowa's State program has not done very well with getting out this aid, and as a matter of fact, has used less than 6 percent of the money. I see a lot of this coming down to just the choices that are being made as to how the program is being limited, including things like the State did, which was refusing to allow tenants to apply for 3 months of forward rent that is clearly allowed under the rules. So, Ms. Yentel or Mr. Morris, can you share a little bit of what you have seen that really separates the programs that have done better with this from the ones that haven't? Ms. Yentel. Sure, I would be glad to. Thanks for the question. And I couldn't agree with you more that the fact that some programs are doing so well in sending ERA quickly and getting the money to the tenants who need it most is proof that it is possible to do it, and we should look to those programs to learn what is working there and implement it across other programs as well. And what successful programs are doing is having simple, accessible applications. They are using self-attestation for eligibility wherever possible. They are hiring the number of staff that they need to handle the deluge of applications that they are receiving. They are using direct-to-tenant assistance when landlords refuse to participate. They are doing robust and equitable outreach to make sure that tenants and landlords know these resources are available and how to access them. And programs like the example of Texas is a good one. Some programs are course correcting. They are recognizing that they got off to a bad start, or something is not working well, and they are improving their programs as they go. Those are the signs of successful programs in ERA. Mrs. Axne. Well, I very much appreciate that. Mr. Morris, let me ask you then, if we have a State Government that isn't inclined to get the aid out to the renters who need it, do you think that the changes that we are talking about here today are going to be sufficient to help get the funding into those people's hands, or do you think both renters and landlords in Iowa would be better served by a group that is willing to really help them? Mr. Morris. I can't speak directly to the existence of a government that is not willing to help tenants and landlords who are struggling in this process. But I do think what bears saying is that all of these States have existing networks to help vulnerable households, and there is no reason why we should be reinventing the wheel and not using those networks. As you mentioned, they are systems that are set up to help vulnerable populations access resources and they should be the ones that State Governments consult at the frontline to set up programs. And there should not be an opportunity for States to create additional barriers or different rules for programs that make it harder for renters and landlords to participate. If a Federal law says something is allowable, it should be allowed. The legislation should probably say 3 months of forward rent, ``should be paid,'' not, ``can be paid.'' Just any additional flexibility to make renters and landlords access funds is welcome. Mrs. Axne. Absolutely. I appreciate that. Mr. Winn. I just want to say-- Mrs. Axne. What is that? Mr. Winn. I totally agree with what Kadeem just said. I think that was a great point that we have encountered as well. Mrs. Axne. I appreciate that. Let me shift a little bit here to ERA 2. Iowa has already said that they are not intending to apply for the funds, despite the fact that we continue to see renters evicted and landlords without unpaid rent, as, of course, I have mentioned, only about 6 percent of the funding has gone out. Both landlords and tenants lose when this rental assistance is not delivered. Mr. Schwartz, I am wondering, with the second round being available to help both renters and landlords for an additional 3 years, what are your thoughts on how it is going to affect landlords by turning this down? Mr. Schwartz. The reason landlords are turning that down is that it doesn't prioritize arrearages, and we think that is an important fix in this bill, and the McHenry bill takes a look at that. Arrearages are so important because the resident would like that arrearage cleaned up. Even if they are not living there anymore, they still hold that debt, and the landlord is still pursuing collection. It could impact that resident's credit, and the landlord still has their bills to pay and needs that money to keep going. So we think that is really important, and we hope that the committee can fix that. It is an important fix. Mrs. Axne. Thank you. My time has expired. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Hill, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Hill. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate you and Ranking Member McHenry, even though you are not quite on the same page--this issue is important, and it has just dragged on for too long, which is why I was proud to support Mr. McHenry's bill to advance this funding, simplify it, and get it out. Because that is the main issue here, that we help the people who are in arrears on their rent. That is what Congress wanted to do last December. If you are in arrears due to losing your job, or a terrible impact from COVID-19, that is what we are trying to do with these bills. All of this other stuff, forward rent or whatever, is not the core mission. The core mission is to help those families, starting last April, who were brutalized in the economic collapse of shutting this economy down, and haven't gotten back on their feet. And so it is frustrating, not only to tenants and landlords, but it is frustrating to Members of Congress that here we are, in September, and we are still talking about how this could be a better program and help the people that we intended to help last December. I heard some discussion that was very interesting to me, and I would like to try to get a little bit of data. I know it will be anecdotal, I know it will be dealing with Mr. Schwartz and Mr. Winn's testimony. But you have raised something that, in meeting with my mom-and-pop landlords here in Arkansas, I have certainly picked up on, which is, someone is impacted by COVID-19 and is in arrears--April, May, June, July, last year-- they haven't gotten the benefit of this rental assistance, and they moved, they left. And, so, both of you referenced an interesting concept, which is, of the rent in arrears that you have talked about, and Mr. Winn cited $37 million, how much of that is in a unit that is connected to a tenant who left months ago? Mr. Winn? Mr. Winn. A significant portion, and I don't have the exact number in front of me, but it is very significant. In fact, you can make a connection between the uncommunicative residents, the ones that we have not been able to reach, with the ones who are more likely to leave, because they don't believe that the system will help them, or they don't believe that the program is for them, but they do know that their balances are accumulating. So I do think that there is that connection, and that there is significant nationwide back rent owed for vacated apartments for folks who don't believe they have a way out. Mr. Hill. Yes, and that makes this even more complicated. Mr. Schwartz, let me hear you on that issue, if I could, please? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. I don't have the exact number. Our total 30 days or greater past due is $8.5 million in our portfolio. I don't know what percent of that is past due for someone who doesn't live there. I would say, I don't think it is significant. I think it is 10 to 20 percent, and that is a guess, but it is a meaningful amount. Mr. Hill. But I think it is a key point here, that there is no tenant to fill out paperwork. The tenants walked out on the lease and left. And so, that is a whole other complex and we are not, per se, suggesting they be gone after, but we suggest that we be able to process that money and get that vacant unit paid off, and make that less of a problem here. So, I hope that we will put some priority on that as we talk through these issues. I thought that one was an important one to highlight today, Madam Chairwoman. Also, Mr. Winn, you have talked about--you described some of the speeding provisions, like bulk applications, and informed consent, that are in Madam Chairwoman's bill were helpful, but that they are not as helpful because then we extend this eviction moratorium. So, you are arguing, Mr. Winn--and I will get you to respond too, Mr. Schwartz--that these are useful items to help speed up the McHenry effort of getting this money out, but it is a contradiction to extend that eviction moratorium. Is that your view, Mr. Winn? Mr. Winn. I would say, yes, I think there should be a middle ground. I believe as you mentioned, there are provisions in the bill that are both necessary and will be very effective. I do think they are burdened by more restrictions that will have the unintended consequences of having landlords not wish to participate-- Mr. Hill. Okay. Mr. Schwartz, can you give a quick response? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. There are two things in the bill that could cause landlords not to participate. The first one is an 120-day eviction moratorium if you accept the ERAP funds, and the second is the cancellation of debt if you accept ERAP funds, even in the ERAP funds don't pay all of the debt. We think that will impact landlord participation. Mr. Hill. I really appreciate those candid short responses. Madam Chairwoman, thanks, and I yield back to you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from Massachusetts, Ms. Pressley, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I know firsthand the fear and the trauma that comes with an eviction notice on your door. Evictions are disruptive and violent. These are violent events which destabilize families, but make it more expensive and challenging to rent safe housing in the future, to apply for credit, to borrow money, or to purchase a home. Currently, almost a third of Black renters are at risk of eviction. This eviction crises is exacerbating economic injustice for Black families across America. Ms. Yentel, while there is a clear economic-justice case to support eviction moratoriums, wasn't the legal justification of the CDC eviction moratorium always to help us get COVID-19 under control? Ms. Yentel. Yes, absolutely. The purpose of the CDC Federal eviction moratorium was to slow the spread of COVID-19 and contain the virus. And research has since shown that expired eviction moratoriums led to as many as 400,000 cases of COVID- 19, and as many as 11,000 deaths. Ms. Pressley. That's right. So when I say eviction is policy violence, that is not just some catchy turn of phrase. We know that when 27 States lifted their eviction moratoriums during the pandemic, again, it led to some 433,000 preventable cases of COVID-19, and 10,700 preventable COVID-19 deaths. This policy failure has ended the lives of more than 10,000 Americans. Now, earlier this summer, before its expiration, some Democrats, including our chairwoman, Maxine Waters, and I, fought hard to implore every option to extend the eviction moratorium including passing legislation. Now, while we were successful in securing a targeted CDC extension for a month, at the time there were not enough Members of Congress who were willing to vote yes to help pass this commonsense legislation to prevent a public health crisis within a public health crisis. Somewhere along the line, the conversation about the eviction moratorium shifted from it being a reasonable public health measure into an argument that Congress was anti-small landlord. That is not it. This is about saving people's lives. That was a ploy to divide and pit working families against working families. Every proposal before Congress has provided relief for renters and small landlords alike. Then, I discovered that the National Association of REALTORS was the largest political action committee (PAC) donor to candidates in the last election cycle, and suddenly, that shift made sense. The fight to extend the Federal eviction moratorium has been derailed too many times because the single largest PAC donor is the organization who was fighting, from Congress to the Supreme Court, to ensure that renters are put last, which means they are putting the public health last. So, let me be clear. Our advocacy is about saving lives. Congress has provided $46 billion to get landlords out of debt, and now we need to protect renters too. Renters may not have a multimillion dollar PAC behind them, but they have a growing number of Members of Congress in their corner. Ms. Yentel, yesterday, Dr. Fauci said that COVID-19 rates are 10 times too high to consider the spread under control. Do you think that the Federal housing agencies are doing everything in their power to get COVID-19 under control by protecting renters from eviction? Ms. Yentel. I think they can and should do more, and Congress should as well. Clearly, Congress should implement a Federal eviction moratorium, as long as the Delta variant is surging and people are dying. But as you said, Congress doesn't have the votes to do so, and so Federal agencies should act. We have urged HUD to implement an eviction moratorium for all federally-subsidized properties, which we believe they have the legal authority to do now, and we have urged the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) to consider what authorities it might have to similarly implement an eviction moratorium on federally-backed properties. Those two actions could protect about 30 percent of renters nationally. Ms. Pressley. Thank you. And we know there are an estimated 750,000 renters who could be evicted in the next few months. This is an all-hands-on-deck moment. This is a public health emergency. I urge every level of government to take urgent action to keep people safely housed. And I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back. Mr. Kustoff is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Kustoff. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you for calling the hearing today. And thank you to the witnesses for appearing. I think one thing we have heard is that we are all frustrated by the lack of funds that have been distributed by the Federal Government, and I think many of us have concerns that we have not heard from Secretary Yellen about the process and that she should be here. But with that said, Mr. Winn, can you talk about the practical effects, if you will, of the problem of getting in touch with past tenants who have already moved out and have outstanding payments? Practically, are you able to get their consent, and how would you go about doing this? Mr. Winn. Yes. As I alluded to earlier, this has been a real challenge for us. And I made a point of describing all of our outreach efforts, at local levels, State levels, and Federal levels, working with churches, and community organizations. And yet, we still have been unable to reach about half of the tenant population, despite having filled out the applications, and knocking on doors. As I alluded to, there are many reasons that a tenant may not feel comfortable signing that document. And this is not meant to demonize any tenants. In fact, it is meant to recognize that that problem exists, and to make sure that landlords can apply with informed consent on behalf of those tenants, or else I just simply believe the money will not get out there. It will not get to those tenants. Those balances will chase those tenants to the next place they live on their credit report. It is bad for everybody. I don't think we could have done anything more than we have done, and I still think that we are only 50 percent successful. I worry about the smaller landlords without our resources. They would have been less successful. Mr. Kustoff. I think you answered this, but I am going to ask it in a different way. Prior to the pandemic, prior to 18 months ago, and I rightly applaud everybody who tried to work with people, because there was no playbook, there was no historical guide on how to deal and how to navigate through this. But with the tenants' outstanding balance during the pandemic, what would that balance be where, essentially, they would pass the point of no return? In other words, they couldn't pay back a past balance and have to work on evictions? Mr. Winn. I'm sorry. You were breaking up a little. Can you say the last part of that question again? Mr. Kustoff. Sure. I was talking about, prior to the pandemic, what level of back rent would you say was past the point of no return, that the tenant would be unable to pay back, and you would have to begin eviction proceedings? Mr. Winn. Yes. I would say from a statistical point of view, generally speaking, we, as a developer and as an owner, would underwrite 1 percent to 2 percent of bad debt as an allowance. We look at the entire rental. You might have an allowance for 1 or 2 percent. That number has increased significantly because of COVID. And one of the things that I think everybody on this call is worried about is that it is mounting. It is not getting smaller. There continue to be folks who suffer job losses, and have largely not rebounded because the COVID epidemic is still with us. Mr. Kustoff. Thank you, Mr. Winn. Mr. Schwartz, I think that Mr. Hill was asking you about the Expediting Assistance for Renters and Landlords Act, the 4- month eviction moratorium. Can you talk about, again, the practical effects of the proposal in general, what is good, and what is bad, following on your testimony? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. The best eviction mitigation tool is the ERAP funds getting in the hands of the landlords. If you tie that to an 120-day eviction moratorium, what is going to happen is the landlords have shouldered the burden of this pandemic over the past 18 months, and have large rental balances due to them. And now that that is gone, at least the Federal moratorium, and they are told you have to sign up for a new moratorium if you accept the emergency rental assistance, there is going to be a lot of reluctance, and I think you are going to kind of do the opposite of what the bill is intending to do. You are going to contract the number of landlords who want to participate in the program by including that in the bill, and that is our concern. Mr. Kustoff. Thank you, Mr. Schwartz. My time has expired. I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Lynch is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you very much. First of all, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I appreciate all of your efforts to get this money out. We are facing some difficulty here, but I do support your solution. I actually know Mr. Winn personally. He is a friend of mine. I actually worked with his dad back in the day, developing a lot of the affordable housing in my district, and I want to just say a couple of things about the WinnCompanies before I ask my question. Number one, when this pandemic first hit, and there was great, great anxiety out there, as there is now, the WinnCompanies came out right away and they did two things. Before Congress could act and before the CDC could act, the WinnCompanies came out and they announced to their tenants-- well, first of all, they announced to all of their workers--in our district, we have union carpenters, union electricians, union plumbers, and union laborers who maintain the housing, and they do a great job. And the WinnCompanies came out right out of the box when COVID hit, and jobs were shutting down all over the place, and people were being asked to hunker down, and announced publicly that they would not lay off any of their workers and that they would continue to pay them to do the plumbing jobs and to maintain the properties. So, that lowered the anxiety level among a lot of the workers. The second thing they did--and, again, this is before the CDC moratorium--is they came out and announced to the tenants that they would not evict anybody for nonpayment of rent, and they have thousands of units. And that did wonders for the phone calls that I was getting in my office regarding my folks in public housing. I know most of the members on the committee realize I grew up in public housing, lived there for almost 20 years, myself, my mom, my dad, and my five sisters. The local housing project that we grew up in is now renamed after my mom, the Anne M. Lynch Homes at Old Colony. We are very proud of that, so I am all in on public housing. Look, if we didn't have public housing, my family and I would have been homeless. I know what that fear feels like. We had some tough times growing up. My dad used to say that we had to save up to be poor. We had real difficulty. And I am proud of my dad and my mom for pulling us out of that. They both worked really, really hard, and I realize the opportunity that public housing gave us. So, I am going to ask you, Mr. Winn--look, you and I know that we have been trying to develop affordable housing in the City of Boston, which is a high-rent location, for years, and we have a couple that are coming up that we are making progress on, which is good, thanks to Chairwoman Waters. Thanks to Chairwoman Waters, we are finally getting back into the business of affordable housing. We have been retrenching at the Federal level for the past 20 years, and now Maxine, God bless her, has pushed a lot of initiatives to help people in public housing and to create more of it. But what is the biggest obstacle to us? Even when we have land available, we are having difficulty developing affordable housing and workforce housing that would help the people that we work for. What are some of your thoughts on that? Mr. Winn. Thank you, Congressman Lynch, and thank you for those kind words, and for being such a great advocate for the City of Boston and your district. Really, I think what Congress can do is to concentrate more resources on public housing. The Low-Income Housing Tax Credit Program has been wonderful for creating new low-income housing, but there is aged infrastructure in public housing across the country, and for years it has been underfunded. So, I want to thank the committee, and I want to thank Chairwoman Waters and Congressman Lynch and everybody else who fights for HUD resources, because people are living in substandard conditions, not because of management, but because of a lack of funding. And so, I think if we could increase the Choice Neighborhoods funding, the HOPE VI funding, I think we are going to be better off as a community. Mr. Lynch. Thank you. And Mr. Winn, I just want to say that I know that you do a lot of work on military housing--Ft. Hood, Camp Lejeune, a lot of our bases. And this is probably not appropriate at this hearing, but I would love to sit down and talk to you about how we can do a better job of housing our men and women in uniform and their families. Thank you. I yield back, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Gonzalez, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this hearing today, and I certainly want to thank Ranking Member McHenry for all of his work on this important topic. Mr. McHenry has been talking about the importance of getting this right for months now, and he should be commended for his advocacy on behalf of renters and landlords throughout the country. The fact of the matter is that this program has been poorly designed from the beginning, and we should take next week's scheduled markup and include Mr. McHenry's comments and his legislation to streamline Federal dollars. We have put in a lot of programs since the pandemic has started, and I will contrast this one with the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP). When you have insatiable need, and a well-designed program, the money flows, it gets out quickly, and it gets into the economy in the right way. That is what happened with the PPP. It wasn't perfect, but there was a big need, and the program was designed for speed, and it got out. When you have a poorly-designed program or a lack of demand, you get this outcome, which, in Ohio, is that only 6.8 percent of our money has actually been distributed. I do believe there is demand, but it is blatantly obvious when you look at the numbers that this program is poorly designed. And I would at least suggest we think about educating people, as more than 50 percent of renters and 40 percent of landlords are unaware of the Federal assistance. But today, we are talking about the trouble that renters and landlords have had in accessing Federal assistance, and this is all within the backdrop, of course, of the eviction moratorium which was in place until just last week. Mr. Winn, I want to start with you. Just briefly, what has been the financial impact on landlords, and how have we seen landlords respond to the moratorium by putting in restrictions on new units as they come available that may be a barrier to some lower-income Americans? Mr. Winn. I think that the repercussions are significant. And I think we are, as an industry, very excited to see these changes to the ERAP program, because so many of the hardships that are currently outstanding among the landlords would be resolved through a better administration of these funds. So, we are talking about the right thing, but if the administration of these funds is not improved significantly, then the $37 million of owed rent in our case, the billions of dollars across the country, is literally going to be lost, because again, tenants are going to move on, landlords are going to lose their properties to foreclosure, and they will never recover. So the effect has been significant, but there is a wait- and-see attitude to see if we can figure out this ERAP program, because that will make a huge difference. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you. And again, Mr. Winn, in Chairwoman Waters' bill, it contains a provision which states that if a landlord receives rental assistance without the consent of the renter, even if this is payment only partially covering the renter's debts, that this payment will satisfy all monetary claims against the renter. Are you concerned that this provision specifically will deter landlords from seeking out emergency rental assistance, should that provision be enacted? Mr. Winn. Yes, it is a subset of the provision, yes, is a requirement to write off partial balances if only partial funds are received. I do believe that is a disincentive. And I don't know that it is necessary. I believe a bill could create other incentives to stably house folks that don't entertain these funds, that don't require write-off of past-due debts. There can be requirements to accept rental assistance program funds as an example in the future. That might be a better way to incent landlords to do it than to say, ``If you accept our money, you are writing off a 30-percent loss.'' I am worried how that will affect the outroll. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. Thank you. I share that concern. And before I yield back, it just seems like we have a poorly- designed program. I think that is very obvious, given the bottlenecks, again, 6.8 percent of money distributed in my home State of Ohio. It's a very poorly-designed program, and then we have a bad idea to fix a poorly-designed program. So, I oppose that bad idea, I support Mr. McHenry's legislation, and with that, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Don't forget, we had to correct the problems with PPP also. The big banks created their own portals and took care of their concierge clients. We had to put more money in it to straighten it out. It was not a perfect program. We made it work, as we are going to make this work. Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio. That is what I said. I did say it wasn't perfect, but the money got out. Chairwoman Waters. Ms. Dean is now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Dean. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you for convening this important hearing and for being focused on solutions and success in making sure we protect people from evictions. And I say that with a special twist this week, because in my area of Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, we were shockingly hit by Hurricane Ida, associated tornadoes, and devastating losses to housing, to tenants and their tenancies, to landlords, to homeowners, and to businesses small, medium, and large. We had Biblical-level flooding in my district, and tornadoes that we have never, ever, ever seen, losing a lot of our housing stock. So I offer that as a backdrop to say, we have to find a solution. I wanted to start with you, Mr. Morris, and I know you have been talked with a lot, but with good reason. I am from suburban Philadelphia, so I have heard about your program, and I am thrilled with its level of success. It is always good to have a Philadelphia presence on our panels. I read your testimony and learned more of the details of the Eviction Diversion Program and Emergency Rental Assistance Program in Philadelphia. I was hoping you could offer us a little bit more granular details as to the success: specifically, how many tenants have participated; how many landlords have participated; and in what proportion of cases did mediation result in a good outcome or some agreement? Your high percentage of being able to deliver relief is just to be commended. So, can you offer us a little more specifics on that, so that we might learn from it? Mr. Morris. Sure. I can try my best to offer you specifics with the data that we have. I can tell you so far, across all phases, we have spent $165 million in rental assistance dollars that have gotten out the door. In phase 4 alone, there have been about 13,454 households who have been assisted. So far, I think there are 50,000 applications that are still pending, due to a resource limit, and also, just that the time to process the applications is not there. And we are working as hard as we can. We have spent 86 percent of the money that has been allocated to us across all phases of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program. So, we are spending the money. And in terms of the average amount of assistance that is being paid out, we are paying out 8 months on average to households. The utility assistance we are paying is about 4 months on average to households that have applied. I don't specifically have the number of landlords and tenants that have applied separately because we track them as households. The way our system is designed, there is a portal by which a landlord can go in and pre-register, and some have been registered since April when Phase 4 actually opened in Philadelphia, and then a tenant can apply with their applications and those applications are synced on the back end and processed as one. So for every household, I would not consider that a landlord in and of itself, because landlords do own several properties. But we measure them by households that have applied, and there are about 50,000, as I said, that are still outstanding, and we just don't, right now, have the financial resources to help all 50,000 of those, because we have spent 86 percent of our funding thus far. But in terms of demographic data, I can provide that over 74 percent of the households that we have helped have been below 30 percent of the area median income. So, those are very poor households that would otherwise not have any funds left over to help them deal with any sort of crisis. Never mind an ongoing COVID pandemic; they wouldn't have $500 to pay on a bill that they are not expecting. So, we are helping the most vulnerable. And our clients are also predominantly female; over 66 percent of the applicants have been female. Ms. Dean. I wanted to ask you very quickly, how did you spread the word? And then, I want to get one more question in if I have the chance. Mr. Morris. We had an existing network of housing councils from the 2008 housing crisis. The City has also done a lot of advocacy around the program. And we have tenant advocates who have been on the ground working, and as someone contacts us about an eviction or has an instability, we provide information that rental assistance is available, and the courts have also cooperated with us in that process. Ms. Dean. Thank you. Thank you for that extraordinary success, and I hope we send you the resources you need. Mr. Schwartz, I just have a little bit of time left, but from the landlord perspective--because our committee and our Congress is always concerned with tenants and landlords, what successful outreach have you participated in? Mr. Schwartz. Outreach as far as promoting the programs, the ERAP program? Ms. Dean. Exactly. Mr. Schwartz. Yes. In our communities, we make all of our residents aware of rental assistance. Even before the pandemic, if anyone had trouble paying rent, we connected them with local charities or other programs. So nothing has changed. With the ERAP program, as I mentioned earlier, this has been an all-hands effort to help our residents. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlewoman's time has expired. I am so sorry, but we have to move on. Ms. Dean. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Steil, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Steil. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. I would like to dive in and follow up from right where my colleague, Mr. Gonzalez from Ohio, left off. Mr. Schwartz, I would like to ask you about the impact of landlords being forced to take a haircut. Maybe on the surface, it sounds like that might be a productive thing, it is anything to help renters, but I think in--not in a static model but in a dynamic model, where are those costs going to go? And, so, I would love your insight, in particular, if you think that there are going to be landlords across the country that are going to take those losses in one place, and then reach out to other renters in their pool, and try to recoup those costs, and what the impact would be on other renters who were not the beneficiary where the landlord took a haircut? Could you just start there? And then I have a follow-up question to that, if you would, Mr. Schwartz. Mr. Schwartz. Yes. One thing I mentioned is, we have rental inflation going on now that we probably all have read about, and one of the contributors is kind of the costs associated to the industry with moratoriums and haircuts, as you suggest. In California, when ERAP first came out, there was a blanket 20-percent haircut to the landlords by the State, and thankfully, that was changed, because the flow of funds from ERAP was going very slowly because of that haircut. Mr. Steil. So you are seeing the causation of some of these increases being--well, you take a haircut on the left, but ultimately you are raising prices on the right. Does that uniquely impact low- or moderate-income renters? Mr. Schwartz. I believe it does. Low- and moderate-income renters have a higher percentage of their income going to rent, and the rent-- Mr. Steil. Okay. Trying to move quickly, I appreciate your insight on that. Let me shift over to you, Mr. Winn, if I can. In southeast Wisconsin, we have a lot of really small landlords. I lived in a duplex before I bought the house that I am in today. I was a renter there. Often, it's the case here in southeast Wisconsin that you will have somebody who owns a duplex where they live in one side of the duplex, and they have a tenant in the other. That is how they are covering their mortgage. Could you provide some insight as to how these policies have different impacts between the really big landlords that are out there versus these true mom-and-pops? I can't tell you how many landlords in a technical sense, but often they think of themselves as just a homeowner--they own a duplex, they are trying to rent out the other side--have been negatively impacted either by the eviction moratorium, or the ability to obtain funds and what the impact is, in particular, on some of these smaller families who are just trying to build some equity for themselves, of this policy would be, Mr. Winn? Mr. Winn. Yes. In Congressman Lynch's district, we call them triple deckers. So, yes, I understand what you are saying. No, the impact has to be severe. I think at this moment, we know the statistics are that 10 to 20 percent of the funds have reached their intended recipients. For a small landlord who has four or five units, or one or two, that is the real estate tax bill, that is the mortgage payment. That is it. So, we know that they don't have any wiggle room. They don't have any ability to go get a line of credit to cover these gaps. So, urgency is just as important as the actual amount of money for those small landlords. I think the committee is doing the right thing. We are here talking about it. We are here seeing how we can get the money out. But I can only imagine the hardships that small landlords are going through. Mr. Steil. I can't tell you how many of them have called my office, frustrated with the policies put in place by Washington, frustrated with how poorly-run and operated this has been in getting the funds out. There are a lot of people who are looking at their home's mortgage. If you own a duplex, your home is on the line when the other half of that duplex is truly paying zero rent, and you have no ability for recourse. It is a really serious problem, and I appreciate you providing those insights, Mr. Winn. With that, Madam Chairwoman, I will yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from North Carolina, Ms. Adams, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Adams. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I appreciate the opportunity to share with you today. Ms. Yentel, Mr. Schwartz, thank you both for being here. During today's hearing, we have heard plenty about provisions in our legislation that allow landlords to directly apply for back rent. Specifically, we have heard about landlords' hesitancy regarding the requirement that accepting ERA funds would mandate them to house for an additional 120 days. I think it is absolutely critical, though, that we tackle that hesitancy, and I want to talk just a moment about a solution that my local nonprofit is employing with a great deal of success. I represent Charlotte, North Carolina. Ramp CLT, as we call it, is, beyond any doubt, one of the most effective ERA administrators in the nation, serving the entirety of the City of Charlotte and Mecklenburg County in North Carolina. They have been accepting self-attestations since the early days of the pandemic, and they work mostly with our County, our City, and other nonprofits to distribute ERA funds rapidly and accurately and critically. And in addition to any arrears they award, they also provide an additional 3 months of funding to ensure that tenants will remain stably housed. Now, those additional funds immediately help landlords and tenants come to the table, and have made Ramp CLT one of the most effective distributors of ERA dollars in my State. So, Ms. Yentel first, and then Mr. Schwartz, as a way to help bring reluctant stakeholders to the table, do you believe that ERA administrators should consider automatically providing several future months of rent along with any arrears? Ms. Yentel. Yes. Thank you for the question, but first, I think it is important just to clarify, as you did, that the prohibition on eviction for a short period of time is only for landlords who receive funds without any tenant involvement. That is a very important protection against fraud, against potential tenant harassment, against housing stability of tenants. I agree that the program that you named is a very strong program, and has been from the very beginning. They were very early to get started in spending with their ERA program. They set up a program that was very accessible for low-income tenants and for landlords, and they have been doing a great job in getting the money out. I think the solution that they came up with is a good, creative one that can be helpful in many cases. Certainly, it provides additional housing stability for those low-income renters, and it provides assurances for the landlords that those months of rent will be paid. So, I think it is a good solution that should be considered. The only caution I would make is that in some communities, they would need to first be sure that they have enough ERA to cover the arrears of all of the tenants in need before making this future 3-month rent payment automatic for all applicants. But I certainly think that in some cases, and in cases where the tenant needs that additional assistance, I think that is a very good component to a successful program. Ms. Adams. Thank you. Mr. Schwartz? Mr. Schwartz. Yes. I agree with Diane. I think you need to make sure you have enough money to pay the arrearages and what has been owed before committing to go forward. I think it would work on a voluntary basis. I think legislating it would, again, create this effect of reducing participation in the program that we don't want to happen, but I do think landlords would take advantage of it on a voluntary basis. Ms. Adams. Okay. Ms. Salazar, I want to just speak for just a moment about COVID-19's impact on women of color. In my conversations with the Ramp CLT administrator, I was disturbed to hear that the highest number of ERA applications were coming from African- American women between the ages of 20 and 35, who had at least one child. So, how can Congress ensure that the outcomes of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program do not exacerbate existing racial inequities in housing? Ms. Salazar. Thank you so much, Ms. Adams. It is such a critical issue. We knew from the start that this pandemic would have a disproportionate impact on Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) communities, communities of color, and we are seeing that play out, of course. In our program here in the State of Oregon, we have contracted with the local community-based organizations to do outreach specifically in communities of color, with translated materials, to get the trusted relationship with community-based organizations to help folks apply for rental assistance. So, that outreach is critical. And the other piece that we are employing in our State is-- Ms. Adams. I think I am out of time. Ms. Salazar. --priority within the queue. So, I would say that there are some reforms in the proposed legislation that we are talking about today-- Ms. Adams. Thank you very much. Ms. Salazar. --to increase that technical assistance-- Ms. Adams. Madam Chairwoman, I am yielding back. Okay, thank you. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlewoman's time has expired. Thank you. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Taylor, is now recognized for 5 minutes, Mr. Taylor. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate this hearing. I will comment that it is clear to me from all of our colleagues, the importance of trying to get this program to work properly and the frustration with it. And I certainly appreciate the bipartisan consensus that this needs to work well. What I have to admit I am frustrated with is, where is the Administration? They have been trying to operate this program for months and months and months, and they are not here. They are not providing the suggestions. I know, Madam Chairwoman, that you are very passionate about protecting renters, advocating for essentially the eviction moratorium. The President, only at the very last minute, advocated for it and then ultimately tried to do it by rule. And we knew that was unconstitutional, knew that it was illegal. It was struck down in court. He could have been here, ``here,'' meaning in this building, in Congress, advocating for change months and months ago, but he hasn't been. And so here we are, here you are, Madam Chairwoman, working to try to address this and, ``clean up the mess.'' And so, I wanted to just say that one thing that is concerning to me in this legislation is the idea of self- attestation. I know that nobody here wants to see limited government resources, limited taxpayer resources wasted, squandered, used in a way that is fraudulent. And I think that I speak for all of us when I say that none of us want to see that. I am concerned that self-attestation opens the door for fraud. And so, I really hope that we would revisit that. I know we want to go expeditiously, and I certainly concur with that general sentiment of, let's move quickly, let's make sure we get these dollars out. And I think that you have heard Republicans and Democrats talk about the slowness of the process in terms of getting the dollars out. And that is why we are here, we are here to talk about why it is slow, and how can we improve it. I think it is a little late to be having this discussion. We should have been having this discussion months and months ago. But nevertheless, here we are today. Ms. Salazar, a question for you, you indicated earlier, a few hours ago I think, that you had participated, or been consulted about the drafting of the legislation in front of us today. Did I hear you correctly? Ms. Salazar. Thank you so much, sir. Yes. The National Council of State Housing Agencies (NCSHA) has been engaged in these dialogues around the legislation. Mr. Taylor. And was that consultation by the Legislative Branch or the Executive Branch? Ms. Salazar. It was the Legislative Branch. Mr. Taylor. Okay. So, has the Department of Housing and Urban Development or the Secretary of the Treasury reached out to you? Has there been any effort by the Executive Branch to try to reach out to you to ask about the implementation of this program? Ms. Salazar. Certainly, Representative. We have had dialogues with officials at the U.S. Treasury. They have been helpful dialogues. NCSHA proposed, for example, the bulk payment process to get bulk payments out to landlords, and the Administration was receptive. I think where we stand at this point is that the guidance from Treasury has been helpful, but we need those statutory changes to really codify the reforms necessary to be able to expedite the program. Sox, really building on some of the early dialogues we have had with Treasury. I will just say one other piece is that we are in dire need of guidance from Treasury around how they will approach the reallocation issue. We are rapidly coming up on September 30th. Programs like ours in Oregon are pulling out all the stops to expedite payments getting out the door, and we need to understand clearly from Treasury that they will take into account things like the strong demand for the program on the ground, and the efforts that States like ours are making to expedite payment. That is one area where we have not received the guidance that we need. Mr. Taylor. Sure. Are you testifying here today that you are still waiting for guidance from the Administration in order to implement these programs? Ms. Salazar. I would say, in some regard, the guidance has been forthcoming. For example, the recent guidance to-- Mr. Taylor. But I think you just said you are waiting for guidance--is that right, you are waiting for guidance? Ms. Salazar. We are waiting for guidance, sir, specifically on the issue of how Treasury will address the September 30th-- Mr. Taylor. Again, I guess I will just express frustration, individually, and I think I speak for my colleagues--I am really frustrated that the Administration isn't really coming to the table, isn't really offering legislative solutions, isn't really leading on this. I am glad to see the chairwoman and the ranking member working, in slightly different contexts, but trying to come up with solutions. And I really think that the Executive Branch needs to be part of this and part of these discussions. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. And we are all working toward finalizing some of these issues and concerns. I am working with the Treasury, working with the Administration, and offering to work with the ranking member. So thank you very much. Next, we will hear from the gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. You are now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman, for hosting this hearing, and as Representative Dean had mentioned earlier, we just experienced devastating floods for which my district was ground zero, in New York City, for the floods from Hurricane Ida. And this has been a travesty in my district. We have lost 12 people in these floods, and the connection here is that in almost every person lost to the floods, it was related to our housing crisis. The lack of available housing stock and the fear of eviction existed even prior to the pandemic, and the pandemic has only made it worse, to the point that people are seeking alternatives to the housing stock that are often dangerous. Now, that being said, speaking about those long-standing inequities, many low-income renters struggled to make ends meet even before the pandemic. And with the lapsing of unemployment, the striking of the eviction moratorium, all of these things have placed renters in an even more perilous position. We have discussed some of the difficulties, and the committee has addressed some of the difficulties in State implementation. But I also want to talk a little bit about the difficulties in getting these funds out with the segment of landlords who are refusing to participate in emergency rental assistance. Ms. Yentel, is there evidence that lack of tenant participation is a widespread problem for the Emergency Rental Assistance Program? Ms. Yentel. I have not seen any evidence or data to show that there is a widespread problem of tenants not participating. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Okay. Ms. Yentel. There is clear evidence of tenants not completing applications, which points to inaccessible and overly complicated applications that need to be simplified. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Okay. I see. And would you say that in relation to tenant participation, is lack of landlord participation in the program more of a frequent problem that we are noticing? Ms. Yentel. We have seen evidence of this, yes. In a survey that we and others did, about 44 percent of program administrators said that landlords refusing to participate in ERA programs was a challenge. And from some of the more recent conversations, I would say that number has likely grown. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. So that means that when landlords refuse to participate, some Emergency Rental Assistance Programs are not required to provide assistance directly to tenants, and they could face eviction or homelessness if their landlord vetoes the application. Is that right? Ms. Yentel. That is right. Unfortunately, it is optional for program administrators to utilize direct-to-tenant assistance if landlords participate, and we are seeing that only about 28 percent of all ERA programs are explicitly allowing direct-to-tenant assistance. That means there are many tenants who are having their application closed, who are not getting any of the assistance they need because the landlord has refused to participate. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And this is consistent with something I have been seeing. If you are a tenant and you want to make right on your back rent, and you apply for the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, if your landlord has been trying to get you out, they can refuse, in the majority of programs, to accept your rental assistance and evict you and use that as grounds to evict you. Is that correct? Ms. Yentel. That is correct, and we are seeing some very egregious cases of tenants showing up in eviction court with the emergency rental assistance in their hands, and the landlord saying, I don't want it, and the judge allowing the eviction to move forward. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. It seems as though we have a very urgent issue, and I am so thankful to see Chairwoman Waters address these issues. Now, my last question is, what types of enforcement mechanisms should we be exploring to ensure that the tenant protections in this bill are adhered to by landlords? Ms. Yentel. That is a really important point, and we strongly recommend that the legislation be very clear in identifying a Federal agency, the DOJ or the CFPB, and give them clear authority and responsibility to ensure that the tenant protections in this legislation are followed and adhered to. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you so very much. Ms. Yentel. Thank you. Mr. Schwartz. I would like to just chime in on this topic, because I am a landlord, so I can give you some reasons we have seen landlords not want to participate. In a State like New York, there are conditions imposed by participating, like rent freezes, not being able to charge late fees, and extended protracted moratoriums. That makes it hard for the landlords to participate with all of those conditions. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Loudermilk, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. First, I would like to recall how we arrived at this point. First, the CDC established an eviction moratorium despite having no statutory authority to do so. Then, after Congress established a bipartisan rental assistance program in December, Democrats created an entirely new partisan program with a conflicting set of rules. Because of that incompetent law-making or policy-making, the funds are now stuck in an administrative mess, and only a fraction, a small fraction has been distributed. When HUD Secretary Marcia Fudge testified before this committee 2 months ago, she said if we get the rental assistance programs to actually work, then there is no need for an eviction moratorium. But instead of focusing on getting the rental assistance program to work, Democrats tried to pass legislation to extend the eviction moratorium. When that failed, the President then directed the CDC to extend the eviction moratorium, which he knew was unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court struck it down. The HUD Secretary also said that streamlining the rental assistance program would help get the funds out more quickly, and unlike the Members of the Majority who are just now turning their attention to this, Republicans proposed a bill to fix the rental assistance program 3 months ago. There are more than 10 million jobs available right now, more than at any other time in the history of this country. There are more open jobs than there are unemployed people, but instead of focusing on getting people back into the workforce, the Majority now wants to remove any requirement for renters to have a hardship in order to receive rental assistance, and make taxpayer-funded rent a long-term entitlement regardless of whether people actually need it. Mr. Winn, one of the items in the Majority's bill is that it would require landlords who apply for rental assistance on a tenant's behalf to accept any amount they receive as satisfying the entire rent debt, even if the amount they receive is thousands of dollars short of what is owed. Does that provide any incentive to the landlords to apply for these funds? Mr. Winn. Thank you for the question. And I would answer that in two ways. One is, I think we would appreciate more clarity on what the proposal actually says, because read in its worst way, it could be true that by accepting $3,000 in rental assistance, you could be foregoing $6,000. And that doesn't help anybody. So, I think it would be very important to clarify what those rules are, and frankly, don't make them so burdensome that landlords can't participate. Mr. Loudermilk. I appreciate that. Also, the government is the reason why so many property owners have been unable to collect rent and evict non-paying tenants. Should the government make landlords whole by allowing the rental assistance funds to reimburse property owners even if the renter has moved? That is for Mr. Winn. Mr. Winn. Yes. I think--and I mentioned this earlier--that is a critical aspect of this. And it is only going to happen more as we go through the pandemic. There are going to be tenants who see insurmountable balances of rent delinquency, and just say, I have to move. And so it is almost an effective eviction, but it is somebody deciding to move, and unless the program explicitly allows rent on those vacant units, the landlords are the only ones left holding the bag. So the proposal really should, and I hope does, address that. Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Schwartz, do you agree that consolidating the two Emergency Rental Assistance Programs under the ERA 1 program rules would get the funds out more quickly? Mr. Schwartz. I agree with respect to focusing on arrearages, arrearages with respect to vacant units like you just spoke about, and occupied units, and by consolidating them, because ERAP 1 did prioritize arrearages, and we think that is very important. Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. Madam Chairwoman, I have no other questions, so I will yield back. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you for your leadership on this issue. Good afternoon to all of our panelists. The majority of the constituents I represent are renters, so this issue is very personal to me. Millions of people across the country lost their homes after the last financial crisis 10 years ago, but working-class communities like mine never recovered. Families got evicted and priced out. In Chicago, this is a racial-justice issue. The Logan Square neighborhood in my district lost over 10,000 Black families and 20,000 Latino families in the last decade. I can't stand by and let this happen again, and that is why I fought for an eviction moratorium, and why I fought for emergency rental assistance, and now, I am fighting to make sure that the program works for neighborhoods like those in my district. The whole point of rental assistance is to keep people in their homes, and it is our job to make sure that happens. So, I want to thank the chairwoman and the ranking member for convening this important hearing, and say thanks to all of our witnesses today. I do want to direct a couple of questions to Ms. Yentel. You talked about the importance of tenant protections in the Rental Assistance Program. I know firsthand how landlords have a lot of different tools to get rid of tenants they don't want. Filing an eviction in court is only one of them. Can you briefly talk about how landlords might get rid of tenants without formally evicting them, and is this common? Ms. Yentel. Yes. And it is important to recognize too that there are multiple reasons why landlords might refuse to participate in programs, and we have heard that concessions required of them is one. Another reason why we are seeing some landlords not wanting to participate is because they are in hot rental markets and there is a financial benefit to actually evicting the current tenant, increasing rents, and making more money in the long run. There is also a challenge of landlords who have unlicensed or otherwise illegal units who can't access the emergency rental assistance funds. We do see during the pandemic and at other times as well, unfortunately, ways that landlords harass or push out tenants. It is not a formal eviction filing and it is illegal in most places, but they might put a lock on the door and just not let the tenant back in; they might turn off utilities, turn off water, and force that tenant out; or, in less explicit ways, they use harassment to push that tenant out. It is part of the reason why it is so essential that these protections be included if ERA is given directly to landlords without any tenant involvement. It is certainly not all landlords who will act this way, but we have to prevent creating perverse incentives for landlords to potentially harass tenants, to push them out, receive the emergency rental assistance, without having to agree to any of these other requirements that we are hearing are considered so onerous for landlords. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Thank you for that. And I have a follow-up question. How can Congress improve the rental assistance program to prevent landlords from unreasonably getting rid of tenants and claiming funds anyway? Ms. Yentel. Again, in most cases, landlords and tenants are applying for assistance together, and the landlord gets paid for the arrears that are owed to them. In those cases, there are ways the programs need to be improved; they need to be simplified; there needs to be self-attestation used; they need to do outreach to get that money out faster. In cases where the committee considers allowing landlords to receive assistance without involvement of the tenant, there have to be strong protections in place for that tenant to remain stably housed. And many of those protections are included in the chairwoman's legislation--protections against eviction immediately after receiving the funds, protections against going back and claiming more funds from the tenant in the future--and are really important protections to ensure that we are not increasing tenant harassment or housing instability. Mr. Garcia of Illinois. Great. Thank you very much. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. We all voted for the CARES Act back in March of 2020. That legislation, of course, included an eviction moratorium which would last until July 24, 2020. I think that most people thought that was reasonable. It was the right thing to do. We needed to help people who needed help. But I don't think anyone on this committee would have anticipated or supported such a moratorium going on for another year, but that is exactly what happened, and even that wasn't long enough for some people. I also think it is fair to say that, at that time, most of us serving on this committee truly believed that renters who are economically disadvantaged because of economic lockdowns often imposed by State and local governments should not have been evicted from their homes. That is just straightforward common sense. But so much has changed between then and now, primarily the development and distribution of safe and effective COVID vaccines for anyone who wants one. This allowed the economy to largely reopen over the spring and summer months of 2021, making jobs available literally almost everywhere. There are 10.9 million jobs available in this country today. I talk to employers of all different sizes and industries, and a common refrain is always, we need more people. We need more people working. Jobs are available, and thanks to the vaccine, it is safe to return to the workplace. On top of this, as we all know, Congress has shelled out close to $50 billion in rental assistance funds to help renters cover back rent they may owe. These two developments, vaccines allowing for the economy to reopen and the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, made an eviction moratorium completely unnecessary many months ago. If the last few months have taught us anything, it is that the current Administration is completely incapable of putting a plan in place and executing it, with the primary examples being the disastrous Afghanistan debacle, and this emergency rental program. We have also learned that President Biden has zero qualms about abusing his power. I think at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue, we have forgotten that in our system of government, Congress writes the laws and the President executes them. He doesn't get to just do whatever he wants or gets pressured into doing when people camp out on the Capitol steps. The Supreme Court has already knocked down this illegal moratorium extension, and will surely do the same for the vaccine mandates we saw last night. What is sad is that this was all avoidable. A competent White House would have had ERAP up and running, and been working with State and local governments to distribute dollars in a productive way that would have made the eviction moratorium debate a moot debate. I know everyone on this committee wants to help people in this country who need help, but we need to be thoughtful in the manner in which we deliver that help, and make sure that it is not counterproductive. One of the biggest problems we have had implementing any new program, particularly ones that are quickly stood up and quickly send money out the door, is with making sure that only the intended eligible recipients get funds, and fraudsters get locked out. I think that we need to really be careful that we are not going to do more harm than good. We have to get back to work. We have almost 11 million jobs available, and the only way that we are going to get out of this--the only way we are going to get our economy back on track is by getting back to work. Mr. Winn, I know hindsight is 2020, and it is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but looking back over the last 18 months, if you knew all this was coming, what is the one step you wish we could have taken to weather the storm that was/is COVID, and why? Mr. Winn. I would say--I feel like I am repeating myself so I apologize, but I do believe it would be the informed consent model for tenants rather than the wet signature. I do believe that would have doubled the amount of resources we could have given to tenants on that basis. Mr. Timmons. Thank you. I just want to remind everybody that we have $30 trillion in debt and we are talking about spending trillions and trillions of dollars we don't have. Our kids, our grandkids, and our great grandkids are going to have to pay this money back. It is not just funny money. We have to get serious and we have to help people who need help, but we have to get our economy back open and get people back to work, because that is the only way that we are going to be able to help the people who need help the most. And, with that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Thank you. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Garcia, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Garcia of Texas. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you once again for your leadership on this issue and for prioritizing this very important piece of legislation that will help many constituents in my district and all across America stay housed this winter. During the pandemic, our county has faced unimaginable challenges. In Houston, many families were still trying to recover from Hurricane Harvey when COVID hit. As of now, hundreds and thousands of Houstonians are behind on their rent, and since April 2020, Harris County landlords have filed almost 34,000 cases for eviction--34,000 just here in Harris County. With our dollars that we have received through the ERA 1, as page 10 of Ms. Yentel's paper suggests, Harris County is at 81.9 percent, almost 90 percent of the dollars. I understand anecdotally that the dollars are gone, and I can tell you that if there is any city or State or county that has extra dollars, we will take them, because the need is great in Houston and Harris County. We must also make sure that all of the measures that we are taking here do not adversely impact on any renter's ability to apply for any of these funds. My first question is for Ms. Yentel. Ms. Yentel, in your testimony, you highlighted that among those behind on their rent, 31 percent of the households were forced to use debt instruments such as credit cards to make ends meet. And last month, the New York Fed reported that household debt is at an historic high of almost $15 trillion, that is, ``trillion,'' with a ``T,'' marking the largest nominal household debt increase since 2007. This, of course, concerns me because some people did pay their rent, they just put it on their credit card, and now they are stuck with credit card debt. So what can we do to make sure that we aren't forcing people to take on more risk than they are ready for? And could you elaborate on any of the ripple effects that any of these financial hardships due to housing-- what that does to consumers and the economy in general? Ms. Yentel. Yes, and it is one of, I would say, the very unfortunate consequences of Congress having delayed action on finalizing emergency rental assistance for so long. As you know, in the House of Representatives, emergency rental assistance was passed 3 times, in May, June, and July. If the emergency rental assistance had been enacted in that time, it could have been used as it was designed, which was to keep low- income renters current on their rent, to help them pay the rent during the pandemic and not fall behind. The legislation was held up in the Senate under Republican leadership, and it wasn't enacted until December of 2020. By then, tenants had accrued an estimated $50 billion in rent arrears, and it became a different need that the program was trying to serve, which was to help pay those rent arrears. So, that is one of the more unfortunate outcomes of how long it took for Congress ultimately to enact this. As you said, in the meantime, most tenants did everything they could to stay current on their rent during the pandemic. And some of them had to make tradeoffs in not buying store- bought food or paying for internet, despite their children needing it for virtual school, and many of them took out loans or used credit cards to pay for the rent. The data is very clear that there was an increase in the number of tenants using credit cards to pay the rent, and, in fact, many landlords were in communication with tenants, encouraging that to keep the rent payments current. It is unfortunate now that many of those tenants hold that debt but are not able to be paid back through the Emergency Rental Assistance Program for the debt that they owe. And I would encourage the committee to consider ways to enable tenants who can prove that they used credit cards or otherwise took out loans to stay current on their rent, to access emergency rental assistance to make them whole as well. Ms. Garcia of Texas. Thank you. And quickly, Mr. Morris, I had a question for you about translation services and interpreters. I think it was you who testified that some of the delay and some of the concerns from the renter side is not having the forms and the information, the outreach information in the language of their own. Is this a problem nationwide that we also need to address? Mr. Morris. I believe this is a nationwide problem, and all of our applications in Philadelphia are available in several languages based on demographics for the populations. Ms. Garcia of Texas. But should this be a mandate in the bill itself? Because obviously-- Mr. Morris. It should. Ms. Garcia of Texas. --we are hearing that in some cities, in some programs, that is not the case. So, the only way that we can make it uniform and that we make the program accessible to everyone would be to put it in the bill. Would you agree? Mr. Morris. I agree. Even if the bill itself has not changed, there should be a person who can interpret on behalf of someone in a different language available. Chairwoman Waters. The gentlelady's time has expired. Ms. Garcia of Texas. Thank you, and I yield back. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentlewoman from Georgia, Ms. Williams, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you for holding this hearing today. Too many renters, through no fault of their own, have fallen behind on rent payments during this pandemic due to economic hardship, forcing people on the streets during a pandemic that is still raging, and I have seen it firsthand. Back in early June, when a local eviction moratorium expired, I posted pictures on social media from my district where people's belongings had been tossed out on the street, and this was with the CDC eviction moratorium still in effect. That is because people didn't know how to access the actual moratorium, let alone the rental assistance associated. Those pictures were a stark reminder that we must keep working to find a Federal solution to keep people in their homes. I knew that we had to pull every lever to protect tenants from eviction and give them a leg up in recovering from this pandemic. For one, the CDC eviction moratorium protected countless families, which is why I was quick to cosponsor Chairwoman Waters' bill to extend it through the end of the year. Unfortunately, some Members of Congress stood in the way of this extension despite the tireless work of Chairwoman Waters, Speaker Pelosi, and so many other Members of Congress working to protect our constituents. However, like Chairwoman Waters, I knew that we couldn't stop fighting. We still have to address the fundamental problem of getting folks out of rental debt. The key is efficiently distributing the rental assistance already provided by Congress, which has gone out too slowly in many localities. This week, I was proud to join Chairwoman Waters, and co- sponsor the introduction of the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act, which will make the rental assistance Congress approved go out more efficiently. And today, I am glad to talk more about how we get rental assistance to the people. Ms. Yentel, in your testimony, you noted that my home county of Fulton County, Georgia, has distributed 76 percent of the ERA 1 funds that were allotted; however, the rate is not that high in every county nearby. In fact, you noted that Georgia as a whole has only distributed 3.6 percent of its funds. If enacted, to what extent will the Expediting Assistance to Renters and Landlords Act help to reduce distribution disparities in places like my home State of Georgia? And in addition to pushing for passage of this legislation, what should Members of Congress be doing to help more localities get assistance out the door more quickly to people in need? Ms. Yentel. Thank you. The legislation that Chairwoman Waters has introduced and that you cosponsored would speed up the assistance of emergency rental assistance in several ways, and it would build on lessons learned and best practices during the pandemic. We have learned by now very clearly what makes some programs so successful and what makes some programs much less so. Some of the reforms that are included in this legislation, for example, would require that all programs use self- attestation for all eligibility requirements. This would drastically streamline applications, and speed up the delivery of funds. It would also require that all programs utilize direct-to-tenant assistance when landlords refuse to participate, ensuring that tenants aren't penalized for their landlord's lack of action. It would redefine eligible grantees for emergency rental assistance to go beyond State and local government entities to include the community-based nonprofit organizations that are doing the door-knocking and outreach to get tenants engaged in the process. It would prohibit the requirement of written leases, which has also been a barrier for some landlords and for many of the most marginalized tenants who have informal leases but still owe rent to their landlords. So, there are a number of really important changes and protections in the legislation, which we support. In terms of what more Members of Congress can do, I think this legislation is a very good start, but I also think taking the actions that you have taken in your community to help improve and encourage improvement of these Emergency Rental Assistance programs, the example that Chairwoman Waters gave of the actions she has taken in Los Angeles, to connect legal aid attorneys with the emergency rental assistance with the landlords, this is really important leadership that all Members of Congress could take that could help educate constituents about the availability of resources and then help them to access them. Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you, Ms. Yentel. And not knowing what the future holds, do you think it would be useful to study the implementation of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, including any changes to the program, to see how we might improve other programs, going forward, across the country? Ms. Yentel. Absolutely, we should be constantly studying, learning, and improving as we go for this and for any future programs that are set forth. Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. My time has expired, and I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman from West Virginia, Mr. Mooney, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Mooney. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. We understand that last month, the White House essentially caved to political pressure from the left and unilaterally extended the eviction moratorium, even though they knew it was unconstitutional for President Biden to assume this power to himself, the power that is rightly placed in the legislature, the Congress. After the court struck down the moratorium and once again told the White House that it was unconstitutional, Democrats in committee here, in Congress, finally decided to propose changes to the Emergency Rental Assistance Program. The Republicans had already proposed changes to the Emergency Rental Assistance Program months ago, well before the eviction moratorium standoff took place. Instead of going to the President to abuse his powers, we should have worked with committee members on common-sense reforms. Now, the Democrats are rushing to do a rental assistance program through this process. We are scheduled to mark up this bill on Monday of next week. And we are having a hearing on the bill Friday, today, the week before. Hearings are supposed to give us a chance to step back and assess legislation well before they are marked up or make it to the House Floor. But there are zero business days between our hearing and this legislation and the scheduled markup vote. That is unfortunate, because I think this bill has some very significant problems. I am concerned that the legislation could open up the Emergency Rental Assistance Program to waste, fraud, and abuse. One of the most irresponsible provisions in this bill, which appears to be a completely one-sided partisan Democrat bill, which we have seen too much of in this Congress, is it requires self-attestation from a renter to be considered as proof of eligibility for the program. That means an applicant could self-report their income and receive rental assistance from the United States taxpayers with no documentation, and no verification. If someone simply tells the government they are income eligible for the program, we just take their word for it. This bill would say, take their word for it and give them the hard-earned taxpayer dollars. I was pleased that my colleague, Congressman Andy Barr of Kentucky, mentioned earlier in his comments that we are talking about the use of hard-earned taxpayer dollars here, not money that grows on trees that the government just has; the government doesn't have any money that they don't first take from the United States taxpayers. It is their money we are watching over here. So, my question is directed to you, Mr. Winn and Mr. Schwartz. When a potential resident begins the process of moving into one of your units, can they self-attest their income level or do you use some means of verifying their income level? Mr. Winn. I can answer that as it relates to governmental programs that we help administer, like the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit or Section 8. Yes, there has to be verified income for those Federal programs. So by and large, we do have that information in our own portfolio. For market-rate renters, for renters who are not under those programs, we are not in the business of verifying their income necessarily, so I just wanted to point that out. Mr. Mooney. Mr. Schwartz? Mr. Schwartz. Yes, we do income verification for our residents. I guess my only point with self-attestation is the download of these forms, particularly for lower-income residents, has been a big barrier to getting the emergency renters assistance, and we do our best to help them, but self- attestation would streamline the process. And I do think there is a capability of the Federal Government to audit the self- attestations through the tax returns and information the government has and catch people who are committing fraud. Mr. Mooney. Okay. Thank you for that. A quick follow-up to both of you, if you were forced to accept self-attestation as proof of income, would that cause you to be concerned about the tenant's ability to pay rent? Mr. Winn. I just want to say, I think that the issue that we are encountering now as a country is not landlords getting paid too much out of ERAP; it is landlords getting paid too little. So, I do believe that if the attestation can help get the money out--the flip side of that argument is that smaller landlords are often unable to have the follow-up required to verify incomes themselves, to make sure that the tax returns are properly dated, to make sure that they have filed it correctly. So, I do believe there is a need to simplify the process. And to your question of, would it put us in a position to take somebody as a tenant that we otherwise wouldn't have, I think the issue is that they are already there. They are already in our units, and we can't find a way to get them ERAP. Mr. Schwartz. Yes. And I would just follow up--I know you are out of time--that we only verify once. We don't know after the tenant moves in what their income is. They could be with us for 10 years, and we wouldn't know. Mr. Mooney. Okay. I don't know if I am out of time, but I have a closing statement if I am not out of time. Thank you for your comments. I want to say, I think it would be irresponsible-- Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman's time has long expired. The gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Auchincloss, is now recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Auchincloss. Madam Chairwoman, thank you for the opportunity to work on this bill. I have heard a number of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle talk about the unconstitutionality of President Biden's actions. And while I appreciate that everyone in Congress needs to be laser-focused on protecting the Constitution and holding the Administration to account, I have to say that these words would resonate more with me if we had seen this same kind of attention on the Constitution in the last 4 years, after the most egregious depredations of the Constitution in the history of the United States, by President Trump. So, I would encourage everybody in Congress of both parties to continue to hold Presidents of both parties to account for protecting and defending the Constitution. I am also hearing a tremendous amount of frustration, again from both sides, about the bureaucracy and the paperwork around if it was grounded in good intentions and was really directed towards an extreme need. And it has made me think a lot about the Child Tax Credit. And the connection here is that we have seen over and over again empirically with Federal policy that when we directly transfer money to working families, whether it is through the Child Tax Credit or the Earned Income Tax Credit, they spend it on what they need and they spend it on a better future for their kids. And so, the expansion of the Child Tax Credit and making permanent the tremendous gain in childhood poverty reduction that we will achieve in the American Rescue Plan and reconciliation can be viewed not just as expanding and improving social welfare, but also, in the long run, obviating the need for some of these programs that I know my Republican colleagues get frustrated with for sometimes being inefficient or bureaucratic or increasing red tape. Just give money directly to people [inaudible] Needs [inaudible] Without being market distortions or even without creating a new level of Federal bureaucracy. So, I would encourage you to think about the Child Tax Credit in that lens. I will pivot now towards the program in question. And, again, Madam Chairwoman, thank you for the work that you have done to help correct some of the flaws we have had in the distribution of these funds. Earlier this week, a local news station, WBUR, [inaudible] Renters in the southern part of the district I represent in Bristol County were twice as likely to have been evicted during the pandemic. And they have actually seen more authorizations for evictions in two cities, Fall River and New Bedford, than in Boston, which is a city 6 times their size. There are a lot of reasons for this, but one of them, as the article pointed out, is that some renters do not even learn of the rental assistance at all until they are actually in eviction court itself, and sometimes learn of rental assistance even in eviction court. They are literally getting evicted through the court process and never had been told about it. So, I would like to focus on housing courts and their role as the last tripwire in this whole process for making people aware of their rights. Ms. Salazar, if you could start by saying if you have seen any programs that are effective, where the courts are doing their job? Ms. Salazar. Thank you, sir, for that question about the role of courts and eviction diversion. Certainly, our hope is to be able to respond quickly to get rental assistance into the hands of tenants before we reach that point. But one of the things that we are seeing work really well is that our local program administrators on the ground are collaborating with the court systems to intervene and directly get rental assistance into the hands of folks who have received a filing. And so, it is those kinds of relationships and cooperation that are absolutely critical. And I would say that one of the things that is helpful in the chairwoman's bill is being more focused on administrative dollars, technical assistance, and the support for local community-based organizations so that we can set up those kinds of effective programs to engage [inaudible] Solution. Mr. Auchincloss. And in my final minute, Ms. Salazar, again, perhaps you could, and with each witness [inaudible] Say for the sake of the record whether you support self-attestation as programmed in this bill. Ms. Salazar. Thank you for the question. Self-attestation certainly speeds the provision of rental assistance. What we have seen in our own program in Oregon is that some of our local administrators have been quick to adopt self-attestation as part of the process and some have been slower to adopt it for various reasons. And when we see it utilized-- Mr. Auchincloss. Ms. Salazar, I apologize for interrupting, but I only have about 20 seconds. I want to let the other witnesses quickly say if they support self-attestation or not. Mr. Morris, perhaps you next? Mr. Morris. I do support self-attestation. Mr. Auchincloss. Thank you. Mr. Winn? Mr. Winn. Yes. It is not a perfect solution, but I do think it is required at this time to get the money out effectively. Mr. Auchincloss. Thank you. Mr. Schwartz? Mr. Schwartz. Yes, I support self-attestation. Mr. Auchincloss. Okay. Thank you. Ms. Yentel. And we strongly support it as well. Mr. Auchincloss. Thank you all. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Chairwoman Waters. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. Do we have any more Members on the platform who have not yet participated? If not, I would like to thank all of our witnesses for being here today and for providing us with very valuable testimony. The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for these witnesses, which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record. And, with that, this hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 3:44 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X September 10, 2021 [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]