[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  HOMECOMING: THE HISTORICAL ROOTS AND
                    CONTINUED CONTRIBUTIONS OF HBCUS

=======================================================================

                                 HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                          HIGHER EDUCATION AND
                          WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

            HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, OCTOBER 6, 2021

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-30

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
      
 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]     

          Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov

                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
45-796 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                  
                               
                               

                    COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR

             ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona            VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut              Ranking Member
GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN,      JOE WILSON, South Carolina
  Northern Mariana Islands           GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida         TIM WALBERG, Michigan
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon             GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
MARK TAKANO, California              ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina        RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
MARK DeSAULNIER, California          JIM BANKS, Indiana
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          JAMES COMER, Kentucky
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington          RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York          FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania             GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
LUCY McBATH, Georgia                 MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut            BURGESS OWENS, Utah
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan                 BOB GOOD, Virginia
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota                LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan
HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan           DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico   MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
MONDAIRE JONES, New York             VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina     SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana              MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair  MICHELLE STEEL, California
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin                JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas                Vacancy
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland

                   Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
                  Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
                  
                              ------                                

       SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman

MARK TAKANO, California              GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington            Ranking Member
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota                GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico   ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
MONDAIRE JONES, New York             JIM BANKS, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina     JAMES COMER, Kentucky
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York              RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin                MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas                BOB GOOD, Virginia
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey           LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan
ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York           DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona            VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut            JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon             VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia    (ex officio)
  (ex officio)
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on October 6, 2021..................................     1

Statement of Members:
    Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on Higher 

      Education and Workforce Investment.........................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................     4
    Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
      Higher 
      Education and Workforce Investment.........................     5
        Prepared statement of....................................     6

Statement of Witnesses:
    Baskerville, Lezli, President and CEO, National Association 
      for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education..................     8
        Prepared statement of....................................    11
    Glover, Glenda, President, Tennessee State University........    63
        Prepared statement of....................................    65
    Perry, Andre M., Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution....    39
        Prepared statement of....................................    41
    Sailor, Angela, VP, The Edwin J. Feulner Institute, Heritage 
      Foundation.................................................    51
        Prepared statement of....................................    53

Additional Submissions:
    Adams, Hon. Alma S., a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of North Carolina:
        ``Action Needed to Improve Participation in Education's 
          HBCU Capital Financing Program,'' U.S. Government 
          Accountability Office, June 2018.......................   107
        ``Blacks and STEM: Understanding the Issues,'' Dr. 
          William E. Spriggs, Chief Economist, NAFEO.............   186
        ``Achieving Financial Equity and Justice for HBCUs,'' The 
          Century Foundation, September 14, 2021.................   196
        ```If not now, then when?': HBCUs press Congress for 
          infrastructure funds in spending bill,'' PoliticoPro, 
          September 30, 2021.....................................   210
        UNCF letter dated October 1, 2021........................   213
    Questions submitted for the record by:
        Chairwoman Wilson 
        Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from 
         the State of Oregon 
    Response to question submitted for the record by:
        Ms. Baskerville..........................................   220
        Mr. Perry................................................   231

 
                  HOMECOMING: THE HISTORICAL ROOTS AND
                    CONTINUED CONTRIBUTIONS OF HBCUS

                              ----------                              


                       Wednesday, October 6, 2021

                  House of Representatives,
                      Subcommittee on Education and
                              Workforce Investment,
                          Committee on Education and Labor,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommitte met, pursuant to notice, at 12:03 p.m., via 
Zoom, Hon. Frederica S. Wilson (Chairwoman of the Subcommittee) 
presiding.
    Present: Representatives Wilson, Jayapal, Leger Fernandez, 
Manning, Bowman, Espaillat, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex 
officio), Murphy, Grothman, Stefanik, Banks, Miller-Meeks, 
McClain, Spartz, Letlow, and Foxx (ex officio).
    Also present: Representatives Adams, Hayes, McBath, 
Stevens, and Mfume.
    Staff present: Katie Berger, Professional Staff; Jessica 
Bowen, Professional Staff; Rashage Green, Director of Education 
Policy; Christian Haines, General Counsel; Rasheedah Hasan, 
Chief Clerk; Sheila Havenner, Director of Information 
Technology; Ariel Jona, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay, Policy 
Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray, Clerk/
Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla Pennebecker, 
Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director; Banyon 
Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology; Cyrus Artz, 
Minority Staff Director; Michael Davis, Minority Operations 
Assistant; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and 
Human Resources Policy; David Maestas, Minority Fellow; Hannah 
Matesic, Minority Director of Member Services and Coalitions; 
Eli Mitchell, Minority Legislative Assistant; and Mandy 
Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Director of 
Education Policy.
    Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Higher Education and 
Workforce Investment will come to order. Welcome everyone. I 
note that a quorum is present.
    I note for the Subcommittee that Ms. Adams of North 
Carolina, Mrs. McBath of Georgia, Mrs. Hayes of Connecticut, 
Ms. Stevens of Michigan, and Mr. Mfume of Maryland are 
permitted to participate in today's hearing with the 
understanding that their questions will come only after all 
Members of the Subcommittee on both sides of the aisle who are 
present have had an opportunity to question the witnesses.
    The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on 
``Homecoming: The Historical Roots and Continued Contributions 
of HBCUs.'' This is an entirely remote hearing. Our microphones 
will be kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary 
background noise. Members and witnesses will be responsible for 
unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak or when 
they wish to seek recognition.
    I also ask that Members please identify themselves before 
they speak. Members should keep their cameras on while in the 
proceeding. Members shall be considered present in the 
proceeding when they are visible on camera, and they shall be 
considered not present when they are not visible on camera. The 
only exception to this is if they are experiencing technical 
difficulty and inform Committee staff of such difficulty.
    If any Member experiences technical difficulties during the 
hearing, you should stay connected on the platform, make sure 
you are muted, and use your phone to immediately call the 
Committee's IT director, whose number was provided to you in 
advance.
    Should the Chair--that is me--experience technical 
difficulty or need to step away to vote on the floor, Ms. 
Bonamici, as a Member of this Subcommittee, or another majority 
Member of the Subcommittee, Mr. Bowman, if she is not 
available, they are hereby authorized to assume the gavel in 
the Chair's absence.
    This is an entirely remote hearing, and as such, the 
Committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who 
choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room 
must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion 
resulting from more than one person on the software platform 
sitting in the same room.
    Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing 
and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks, 
hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas both before and 
after their presence in the hearing room.
    In order to ensure that the Committee's five-minute rule is 
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the 
Committee's digital timer which appears in its own thumbnail 
picture. Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly 
when their time has expired, or I will gavel you to a close.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(c), opening statements are 
limited to the Chair and the ranking Member. This allows us to 
hear from our witnesses sooner and provides all Members with 
adequate time to ask questions.
    I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    Today we are meeting to explore the unique role that 
historically Black colleges and universities play in expanding 
access to affordable, high quality education. As a graduate of 
Fisk University, I am proud to Chair this first hearing to 
exclusively examine the State of these vital institutions since 
2008.
    And, as Chair of the Higher Education and Workforce 
Investment Subcommittee, I am committed to addressing the 
pressing needs of our Nation's HBCUs and their students, 
including infrastructure, modernization, improved research 
capabilities, financial assistance to reduce economic barriers 
and eliminate food and housing insecurity, and investments to 
account for decades--decades--decades of gross underfunding.
    HBCUs have been at the very heart of addressing our 
Nation's longstanding education and racial equity failures. For 
nearly 200 years, they have provided ladders of economic and 
social mobility and safe havens for generations of Black 
students.
    In fact, HBCUs were established for the specific purpose of 
educating Black students because other institutions would not 
and refused to.
    The majority were founded in the wake of the Emancipation 
Proclamation to serve formerly enslaved Black Americans, as was 
my institution, Fisk University.
    Since their inception, these institutions have survived Jim 
Crow-era segregation, deferred maintenance, de jure 
discrimination, and decades--decades--decades of persistent 
under-investment.
    Today, HBCUs remain integral to promoting the academic, 
social, and economic success of the descendants of enslaved 
Americans, and fostering a thriving community for an 
underrepresented student population, including Black students.
    Remarkably, while HBCUs account for only 3 percent of all 
colleges and universities, they have graduated 80 percent of 
Black judges, 70 percent of Black doctors, 50 percent of Black 
teachers, and 50 percent of the Members of the congressional 
Black Caucus and other Black Members of Congress.
    Unfortunately, many States have chronically underfunded 
HBCUs compared to other institutions, leaving them to achieve 
far more with far less. This inequitable treatment dates back 
to the 1800's, but it continues today.
    HBCUs are still recovering from sweeping cuts to higher 
education funding during the 2008 recession, which 
disproportionately affected their campuses. The recent 
proliferation of State performance-based funding policies that 
disadvantage HBCUs is making resources disparities even worse.
    Additionally, the endowments held by private HBCUs are less 
than one-third the size of those held by private non-HBCUs.
    To fulfill our Nation's promise of higher education for all 
people, all children, Congress must provide HBCUs with the 
resources and support they need to combat systematic 
underfunding and discrimination.
    Since March 2020, Congress has secured more than $6.5 
billion in HBCU funding, including $5 billion in the COVID 
relief, and $1.6 billion to forgive capital financing loans.
    These historic investments provided emergency aid to help 
students access essentials, like food and housing, and allowed 
more than 20 HBCUs to erase students' debt. And, just last 
month, our Committee advanced its portion of the Build Back 
Better Act, which included over $30 billion in higher education 
investments that will benefit HBCUs.
    These investments are a critical step toward addressing 
decades of systematic under-investment.
    However, let us not forget, we recognize that we still have 
a long way to go to correct historic--historic--inequities in 
HBCU funding.
    Thanks to these pivotal institutions, we can all benefit 
from the contribution of such luminaries as Mary McLeod 
Bethune, my role model; W.E.B. Du Bois; Langston Hughes; Dr. 
Martin Luther King Jr.; Thurgood Marshall; Katherine Johnson; 
Toni Morrison; Congressman John Lewis, who went to Fisk 
University with me; and Vice President Kamala Harris.
    We must preserve and protect HBCUs for the sake of the next 
generation of change-makers and for those yet unborn. So I look 
forward to working with my colleagues to ensure that HBCUs 
receive the support that they need so that we can assure that 
happens.
    Additionally, in the future, we will host hearings that 
showcase the contributions and accomplishments of Tribal 
colleges and universities and minority-serving institutions, 
which also play an important role in the higher education 
landscape. I want to thank our distinguished witnesses again 
for being with us today.
    [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]

  Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on 
               Higher Education and Workforce Investment

    Today, we are meeting to explore the unique role that Historically 
Black Colleges and Universities play in expanding access to affordable, 
high-quality education.
    As a graduate of Fisk University, I am proud to Chair this first 
hearing to exclusively examine the State of these vital institutions 
since 2008. And as Chair of the Higher Education and Workforce 
Investment Subcommittee, I am committed to addressing the pressing 
needs of our Nation's HBCUs and their students, including 
infrastructure modernization, improved research capabilities, financial 
assistance to reduce economic barriers and eliminate food and housing 
insecurity, and investments to account for decades--decades--of gross 
underfunding.
    HBCUs have been at the very heart of addressing our Nation's long-
standing education and racial equity failures. For nearly 200 years, 
they have provided ladders of economic and social mobility and safe 
havens for generations of Black students.
    In fact, HBCUs were established for the specific purpose of 
educating Black students because other institutions would not and 
refused to. The majority were founded in the wake of the emancipation 
proclamation to serve formerly enslaved Black Americans, as was my 
institution, Fisk University.
    Since their inception, these institutions have survived Jim Crow-
era segregation, differed maintenance, de jure discrimination, and 
decades--decades--of persistent underinvestment.
    Today, HBCUs remain integral to promoting the academic, social, and 
economic success of the descendants of enslaved Americans and fostering 
a thriving community for underrepresented student populations, 
including Black students. Remarkably, while HBCUs account for only 3 
percent of all colleges and universities, they have graduated 80 
percent of Black judges, 70 percent of Black doctors, 50 percent of 
Black teachers, and 40 percent of Black Members of Congress.
    Unfortunately, many states have chronically underfunded HBCUs 
compared to other institutions, leaving them to achieve far more with 
far less.
    This inequitable treatment dates back to the 1800's but it 
continues today. HBCUs are still recovering from sweeping cuts to 
higher education funding during the 2008 recession, which 
disproportionally affected their campuses. The recent proliferation of 
State performance-based funding policies that disadvantage HBCUs is 
making resource disparities even worse.
    Additionally, the endowments held by private HBCUs are less than 
one-third the size of those held by private non-HBCUs.
    To fulfill our Nation's promise of higher education for all 
people--all children, Congress must provide HBCUs with the resources 
and support they need to combat systemic underfunding and 
discrimination.
    Since March 2020, Congress has secured more than $6.5 billion in 
HBCU funding, including $5 billion in COVID relief and $1.6 billion to 
forgive capital financing loans. These historic investments provided 
emergency aid to help students access essentials, like food and 
housing, and allowed more than 20 HBCUs to erase students' debt. And 
just last month, our committee advanced its portion of the Build Back 
Better Act, which included over $30 billion in higher education 
investments that will benefit HBCUs.
    These investments are a critical step toward addressing decades of 
systemic underinvestment. However, let us not forget, we recognize that 
we still have a long way to go to correct historic inequities in HBCU 
funding.
    Thanks to these pivotal institutions, we can all benefit from the 
contribution of such luminaries as Mary McLeod Bethune, my role model, 
W.E.B. DuBois, Langston Hughes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Thurgood 
Marshall, Katherine Johnson, Toni Morrison, Congressman John Lewis, who 
went to Fisk University with me, and Vice President Kamala Harris. We 
must preserve and protect HBCUs for the sake of the next generation of 
change-makers and for those yet unborn.
    So, I look forward to working with my colleagues to ensure that 
HBCUs receive the support that they need so that we can ensure that 
happens.
    Additionally, in the future, we will host hearings that showcase 
the contributions and accomplishments of Tribal Colleges and 
Universities and Minority-Serving Institutions, which also play an 
important role in the higher education landscape.
    I want to thank our distinguished witnesses, again, for being with 
us today.
                                 ______
                                 
    I now yield to the distinguished ranking Member, Dr. 
Murphy, for his opening statement.
    Dr. Murphy?
    Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you for those 
excellent remarks. I want to also thank the Members of the 
Committee coming to testify before us.
    Historically Black colleges are an important and critical 
landscape to that of higher education. For decades, these 
institutions have provided Black Americans with unique 
opportunities to pursue their degree and become a vital part of 
the workforce.
    For almost 200 years, HBCUs have embodied the true American 
spirit and have overcome immeasurable challenges and hardship. 
Today, over a hundred HBCUs play a vital role in their 
communities and are pivotal in the education of our Nation's 
future leaders.
    This includes Elizabeth City State University in my Third 
congressional District, which I am very proud to represent. I 
will say I visited the university many times and have met their 
chancellor, and I am just going to call her out here, Karrie 
Dixon, who is a rock star.
    She is a true gem in the world of academia, and she has led 
that institution to develop smart and minds that have critical 
thinking that seek out opportunity and succeed. So my hat is 
off to Karrie. I will just give you a little shout-out there.
    Yet the financial stress brought by COVID-19 is requiring 
many institutions to take a hard look at their business 
models--and HBCUs are no exception--colleges and universities 
of all kinds need to begin asking the difficult questions 
including those about financial accountability and viability.
    One thing we must note that government intervention 
oftentimes does more harm than good. This is especially true in 
education. We must encourage all institutions of higher 
education, including HBCUs, to become more self-reliant and 
more accountable.
    Reliance on the Federal Government for funding is 
inherently unstable. While we fully support these institutions, 
we believe that they must develop sustainable funding 
mechanisms on their own to ensure their longevity. This goes 
for HBCUs, as well as all other educational institutions.
    As is often the case, more money is not the answer and does 
not address the underlying root causes of problems that face 
higher education--institutions of higher education.
    These colleges and universities already receive a 
tremendous amount of Federal aid. In 2019 alone, Congress 
provided HBCUs, along with other minority-serving institutions, 
a permanent, mandatory funding stream on top of their annual 
appropriation.
    Additionally, since March 2020, HBCUs and MSIs have 
received an additional $6 billion in targeted direct aid on top 
of their annual funding they received through the Higher 
Education Act. This includes a billion in the CARES Act 
funding, $1.7 billion in the Coronavirus Response and Relief 
Supplementation Appropriation Act, $3 billion in American 
Rescue Plan funds, as well as an additional $1.6 billion in 
capital financing loan charges.
    Even with this massive amount of spending, some folks--I 
will tell you Senator Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders--want to 
see that number increased by another $100 billion with 
President Biden's Build Back agenda, which proposes an 
additional $30 billion--that is with a B--in additional 
spending on HBCUs. This is honestly--these additional funds are 
questionably absurd.
    While Federal funding may provide temporary support, we 
must encourage HBCUs, just like every other institution, to be 
more innovative, develop strategic business models, and work 
with their private sector to help students complete their 
programs and excel in the workforce.
    HBCUs, just as with any other educational institution, also 
cannot be exempt from accountability. Any institution receiving 
tax dollars must be held to a high standard. Underperforming 
HBCUs, as well as with any other educational institution, 
should not be propped up by Federal dollars indefinitely when 
they are not being accountable. We must assure that all 
institutions better serve their students.
    Easy access to taxpayer dollars creates perverse incentives 
for these institutions to hike tuition costs. I have spoken 
extensively on administrative bloat, and finances at HBCUs are 
not exempt from this discussion.
    Knowing that the Federal Government will step in and 
subsidize price hikes allows institutions to then justify 
indiscriminate spending on this administrative bloat and 
unnecessary programs.
    Taxpayer dollars are not--are meant to improve students' 
educational outcomes and experiences, not the salaries of 
additional staff and administrators.
    We encourage HBCUs to increase and diversify their funding 
streams and get their institutions on stronger financial 
footing. We all want them to succeed. We all want them to 
continue to educate future generations.
    Thank you, Madam Chairman, I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Murphy follows:]

 Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
               Higher Education and Workforce Investment

    Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) are an 
important asset to the higher education landscape. For decades, these 
institutions have provided Black Americans with unique opportunities to 
pursue their degree and become a vital part of the workforce.
    For almost 200 years, HBCUs have embodied the true American spirit 
and have overcome immeasurable challenges and hardships. Today, the 
over 100 HBCUs play a vital role in their communities and are pivotal 
in the education of our Nation's future leaders. This includes
    Elizabeth City State University in North Carolina's 3d 
congressional District, which I am proud to represent. I have visited 
that wonderful University many times and consider their chancellor, 
Karrie Dixon, a true gem in the world of academia. She has led that 
institution to develop smart minds that will seek out opportunity and 
succeed.
    Yet the financial stress wrought by COVID-19 is requiring many 
institutions to take a hard look at their business models and HBCUs are 
no exception. Colleges and universities of all kinds need to begin 
asking the difficult questions about financial accountability.
    One thing we know is that government intervention often does more 
harm than good; this is especially true in education. We must encourage 
all institutions of higher education, including HBCUs, to become more 
self-reliant.
    Reliance on the Federal Government for funding is inherently 
unstable. While we fully support these institutions, we believe they 
must develop sustainable funding mechanisms to ensure their longevity. 
This goes for HBCU's as well as other educational institutions.
    As is often the case, more money is not the answer and does not 
address the underlying problems facing HBCUs. These colleges and 
universities already receive a tremendous amount of Federal aid. In 
2019, Congress provided HBCUs, along with other Minority-serving 
institutions, a permanent mandatory funding stream on top of their 
annual appropriation.
    Additionally, since March 2020, HBCUs and MSIs have received an 
additional $6 billion in targeted, direct aid, on top of the annual 
funding they receive through the Higher Education Act. This includes $1 
billion in CARES Act funding, $1.7 billion in the Coronavirus Response 
and Relief Supplemental Appropriations Act, $3 billion in American 
Rescue Plan funds, as well as an additional $1.6 billion in capital 
financing loan discharges.
    Even with this massive amount of spending, some Democrats like 
Senators Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders want to see that number 
increased by another $100 billion while President
    Biden's so-called Build Back Better agenda proposes over $30 
billion in additional spending on HBCUs.
    This is an absurd amount of money.
    While Federal funding may provide temporary support, we must 
encourage HBCUs to be more innovative, develop strategic business 
models, and work with the private sector to help their
    students complete their programs and excel in the workforce.
    HBCUs, as with any educational institution, also cannot be exempt 
from accountability. Any institution receiving tax dollars must be held 
to a high standard. Underperforming HBCUs, as with any educational 
institution, should not be propped up by Federal dollars indefinitely. 
We need to ensure that HBCUs and all post-secondary institutions better 
serve their students.
    Easy access to taxpayer dollars creates perverse incentives for 
these institutions to hike tuition costs. I have spoken extensively on 
administrative bloat and HBCU's are not excluded from this discussion. 
Knowing the Federal Government will step in and subsidize price hikes 
allows institutions to then justify indiscriminate spending on 
administrative bloat and unnecessary programs. Taxpayer dollars are 
meant to improve students' educational outcomes and experiences, not 
the salaries of staff and administrators.
    We should encourage HBCUs to increase and diversify their funding 
streams and get their institutions on stronger financial footing-all so 
they can continue to educate future generations.
                                 ______
                                 
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, Dr. Murphy.
    I will now introduce the witnesses, these amazing and 
brilliant change agents. Our first witness is Dr. Lezli 
Baskerville. She is the CEO of the National Association for 
Equal Opportunity and Higher Education, a membership and 
advocacy association for representing HBCUs and predominantly 
Black institutions.
    Previously Dr. Baskerville has served as appellate counsel 
at the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, national 
legislative counsel for the NAACP, and as an administrative 
appeals judge in the District of Columbia. She is a graduate of 
Howard University School of Law and Douglas College.
    Welcome, Dr. Baskerville. Unmute.

 STATEMENT OF LEZLI BASKERVILLE JD, PRESIDENT & CEO, NATIONAL 
 ASSOCIATION FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN HIGHER EDUCATION (NAFEO)

    Ms. Baskerville. Thank you very much, Subcommittee 
Chairwoman Wilson and to Ranking Member Murphy.
    I saw earlier, but I don't see now Chairman Scott and 
Ranking Woman--oh, hi there, Chairman Scott and Ranking Member 
Virginia Foxx, and to the other Committee Members.
    It is my distinct honor to be here today, especially to be 
here on the birthday of activist Fannie Lou Hamer, and to you, 
Madam Chairwoman, today, which is Jubilee Day at Fisk 
University, which of course you understand and recognize and 
celebrate.
    On this day in 1871, nine courageous and determined Fisk 
University students joined with the professor of music and the 
treasurer and left the safe confines of the 40-acre campus to 
go out and begin a tradition of raising money to keep the doors 
of Fisk University open.
    And, to this day, Fisk University is open and thrives, and 
the Jubilee Singers are a revered part of the legacy and the 
contemporary offerings of Fisk University.
    I also am delighted to be here today on the day on which 
Dr. Mae Jemison, a physician and engineer, the first African-
American woman to be admitted into NASA, was inducted into the 
National Women's Hall of Fame. It is a joyous occasion. It is a 
great Jubilee, and a wonderful homecoming.
    I am privileged to be here to talk initially about the--
quickly about the history of HBCUs and then about their unique 
relationship with America and then list three things that I 
think we need to do from here.
    So you've already heard quite a bit about the history of 
HBCUs. HBCUs, they are unique in that they are the only 
American cohort of colleges and universities that were founded 
by persons who had been prevented--who were, first of all, 
taken from their homeland in the most horrific conditions and 
brought to America against their will with thousands dying from 
the time they left their land until the time they got here.
    When they got here, they were stripped of their families, 
their culture, their language, all things familiar to them. And 
as they went through the most unimaginable circumstances, the 
one thing that they kept their mind on was education.
    And so they got education in any means, but they kept their 
minds, their spirits, and their hearts on education, the 
importance of education to get them where they needed to be.
    And so, from this horrific beginning, we began to see the 
abolitionists and faith institutions establishing colleges and 
universities as well as schools. We later saw, with the 
introduction of the MORALE Act, the introduction into this 
landscape of public colleges and universities for the express 
purpose of allowing Black people to attend those schools.
    Because in America, Blacks were not permitted to go to 
school with White persons. There were 1862 land-grant 
institutions and under the Morrill Act, Congress stepped in and 
recognized--well, the courts suggested that it was unlawful to 
have public institutions for White students and not Blacks. 
And, if they were going to maintain them, they would have to 
start institutions for Black. And they did.
    But there was no mandate that they fund them equally or 
equitably, and they did not. And so--but that began a long and 
stony road of litigation, legislation, and administrative fiats 
and executive orders that brought us to the point where we are 
today.
    And where we are today is we are grateful, we are grateful, 
we are grateful to the U.S. Congress for the bipartisan and 
bicameral support that got us--got HBCUs more dollars than we 
have had, a historic investment of $6.5 billion in 2020 alone 
and additional dollars just in the last month. We are grateful.
    Those dollars have enabled HBCUs to begin and to continue 
their long and stony road toward equitable funding. And you 
heard already from the Chair and some others the types of 
things our schools have been able to do.
    But what we don't have now is an understanding about what 
HBCUs are. HBCUs are not minority-serving institutions. They 
are historically Black, born of a history unlike any other 
groups of people in America.
    But they are not minority-serving institutions. There is no 
requirement, no race or ethnicity criterion. That is important 
because, through the years, as we have developed groups of 
demographic minorities and as NAFEO and others have wanted to 
make sure that all under-represented students were admitted 
into excellent and diverse institutions, we created programs 
for them, demographic minority institutions, which HBCUs are 
not, and somehow we are clumped together.
    And I would like to talk during Q&A about how we decouple 
HBCUs because of our special relationship with America. 
America, we got the strengthening institutions provisions in 
the Higher Education Act in 1986 because--I am sorry--1968 in 
recognition of the----
    Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville?
    Ms. Baskerville ----abhorrent treatment by America of HBCUs 
and their core base through the years, 200 years and now 
additional 200 years.
    In recognition of that, we have executive orders, we have 
legislation, we have administrative fiats, including the 
current executive order that recognize the----
    Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville? Dr. Baskerville?
    Ms. Baskerville ----continuing vestiges of years of de jure 
discrimination. And so I am going to talk about that and see 
what we can do about it, but in the limited time remaining, I 
want to suggest three things that we do.
    Where we are, we are at a point where----
    Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville?
    Ms. Baskerville ----our institutions are stronger today 
than they were yesterday. But, in spite the infusion of capital 
and investments, when we talk about these, we are not talking 
about HBCUs being given anything. HBCUs are the cornerstone of 
America. America cannot realize her education goals, her 
economic goals, her wealth goals, her health goals, 
sustainability goals, or just----
    Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville? Your time is expired.
    Ms. Baskerville ----talked about and because of the fact 
that without HBCUs there would be no excellent, diverse working 
class. The----
    Ms. Foxx. Ms. Baskerville, the Chairwoman is trying to get 
your attention.
    Ms. Baskerville. I am sorry.
    Ms. Foxx. Ms. Baskerville, the Chairwoman is trying to get 
your attention.
    Speak up, Frederica.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Your time has expired, dear.
    Ms. Baskerville. Oh, I am so sorry. Well, thank you. I look 
forward to entertaining your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Baskerville follows:]

                Prepared Statement of Lezli Baskerville
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    Our second witness is Dr. Andre Perry. Dr. Perry is a 
senior fellow with the Brookings Institution's Metropolitan 
Policy Program, a scholar in residence at American University, 
and a columnist for Hechinger Report.
    Prior to joining Brookings, he served as an associate 
professor at the University of New Orleans' Department of 
Educational Leadership and Counseling Foundations.
    Dr. Perry earned his Ph.D. in education policy and 
leadership from the University of Maryland, and his B.A. from 
Allegheny College. Welcome, Dr. Perry.

STATEMENT OF ANDRE M. PERRY Ph.D., SENIOR FELLOW, THE BROOKINGS 
                          INSTITUTION

    Mr. Perry. Yes. Good afternoon, Chairman Wilson, Ranking 
Member Murphy, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. 
Thank you for inviting me here to testify on what I believe to 
be a matter of national security.
    From the Industrial Revolution in the 18th and 19th 
centuries to the tech boom throughout the last decade, 
government investments and the innovations developed by a wide 
swath of Americans helped make the United States a sustained 
global power.
    However, our standing as a world leader in innovation and 
technology is severely at risk. The lack of recognition and 
investment in Black innovators runs alongside less outlay in 
the innovation economy overall.
    Federal research and development investment has been in 
decline for 60 years, sapping health, science, and educational 
institutions, including HBCUs, of the resources needed to 
introduce new products and services to the public.
    The lack of R&D investment is reflected in regional and 
racial imbalances that show nearly half of Federal R&D spending 
flow to just six States.
    In addition to these geographic disparities, there are also 
stark racial gaps. Less than 1 percent of Federal R&D 
expenditures went to historically Black colleges and 
universities in 2019.
    Likewise, my colleagues and I found that only 7.4 percent 
of NSF and 6.6 percent of NIH grant awards flowed to Black and 
Latino innovators, far below those groups' share of the 
population.
    The lack of investment is sapping wealth and opportunity 
from individuals, cities, and institutions.
    On top of a wealth gap that sees the average White family 
possessing ten times the wealth of the average Black family, we 
see similar disparities at the institutional level.
    The combined endowment for every HBCU in the country 
through 2019 was just over $3.9 billion. For context, New York 
University alone had an endowment of $4.3 billion that year.
    We cut our noses to spite our face when we don't invest in 
the assets that spur economic and social mobility. The lack of 
investment in HBCUs flies in the face of research that shows 
these institutions punch above their weight when it comes to 
developing the talent society needs.
    According to a recent McKenzie Report, even though HBCUs 
make up just 3 percent of the colleges and the universities in 
the U.S., they account for 10 percent of all matriculating 
Black students.
    That same 3 percent produce 17 percent of all bachelor's 
degrees and 24 percent of all STEM-related bachelor's degrees 
awarded to the Nation's Black collegiates. That productivity 
among HBCUs generates $14.8 billion in economic impact annually 
according to a study by the College Advocacy Group, the UNCF.
    HBCUs continue to produce a high share of the Nation's 
Black doctors, judges, engineers, and other professionals as 
Representative Wilson had mentioned. HBCUs have developed this 
talent in spite of less investment and even theft.
    For instance, earlier this year, a Committee established in 
the Tennessee legislature determined that HBCU Tennessee State 
University never received an estimated $500 million it had been 
entitled from the State's funding formula.
    Similarly, in Maryland, after a 13-year legal battle, the 
General Assembly recently agreed to give $577 million to HBCUs 
Morgan State University, Coppin State, Bowie State, as well as 
the University of Maryland Eastern Shore.
    We should be investing to expand the economy. We should be 
investing in institutions like Bishop State Community College, 
one of the Nation's 2-year HBCUs, located in Mobile, Alabama.
    We should be investing in funds to support business 
incubation at the HBCUs, successful models such as OHUB, 
Opportunity Hub, an Atlanta-based pre-accelerator, an incubator 
that works with HBCUs to support tech entrepreneurs.
    As debate over what counts as infrastructure continues to 
unfold, too many people ignore the fact that the real 
undergirding of the 21st century infrastructure, including 
upgrading power grids, sustainable transportation, renewable 
energy, requires investments in STEM talent.
    Therefore, if we want to jumpstart the innovation economy, 
we must invest in the under-appreciated people, places, and 
institutions that can yield significant growth. That means 
investing in HBCUs.
    Thank you and I look forward to the questions later on.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Perry follows:]

                  Prepared Statement of Andre M. Perry
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, Dr. Perry.
    We also know that there are some dormitories that still do 
not have air conditioning as you speak about broadband, et 
cetera. It is totally unacceptable.
    Our third witness is Ms. Angela Sailor. Ms. Sailor is vice 
president of the Edwin J. Feulner Institute at The Heritage 
Foundation, where she manages the institute B. Kenneth Simon 
Center for American Studies and the Center for Civil Society 
and the American Dialogue.
    She served as chief of staff to Heritage's president, Kay 
James, in the White House Office of Public Liaison, and as 
deputy chief of staff to Rod Paige at the U.S. Department of 
Education.
    She holds a juris doctorate from the University of Memphis, 
a master's degree from the American University, and a bachelor 
of arts degree from Central State University. Welcome.

   STATEMENT OF ANGELA SAILOR, VICE PRESIDENT, THE EDWIN J. 
           FEULNER INSTITUTE, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION

    Ms. Sailor. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Scott, and 
Ranking Member Dr. Foxx, and thank you Subcommittee Chairwoman 
Wilson and Subcommittee Ranking Member Dr. Murphy for the 
opportunity to testify today.
    Again, my name is Angela Sailor, and I am the vice 
president of the Edwin J. Feulner Institute at The Heritage 
Foundation.
    Ladies and gentlemen, we can make no mistake, the 
contributions of historically Black colleges and universities 
to America are invaluable.
    According to the United Negro College Fund, graduates of 
our historic institutions hold fully a quarter of all science, 
technology, engineering, mathematic degrees earned by African 
Americans. Moreover, 12.5 percent of all Black CEOs and half of 
all the Nation's Black lawyers are HBCU grads, and I am so 
proud to say I am one of them.
    Like other institutions of higher learning, HBCUs have 
worked to weather the pandemic-blown storm by forging new 
partnerships with both the public and private sectors. The 
Higher Education Emergency Relief Fund, as part of the CARES 
Act, provided more than $1 billion in grants for HBCUs and 
other MSIs suffering hardship due to COVID-19.
    Prior to the pandemic, President Trump signed into law the 
FUTURE Act, making permanent $255 million in mandatory funding 
for HBCUs and other MSIs. As a result, over the past several 
years, HBCUs have seen a historic infusion of additional 
Federal funding.
    As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. reminds us, we are not makers 
of history, but we are made by history. One of the great 
lessons American leaders have learned from COVID-19 is that 
crises creep like a thief in the night and our best defense 
toward budget constraints is prudence, ingenuity, and 
innovation.
    As the mounting national debt becomes more and more 
unsustainable, the consequence of massive spending threatens to 
stifle future opportunities for the next generation. As 
additional Federal spending continues to be our reality, 
colleges must take the opportunity to leverage resources to 
their greatest and highest use.
    In such turbulent times, colleges have an opportunity to 
prioritize programming and to reinvest resources in a way that 
advance their core mission.
    The National Center for Education Statistics notes that 
total revenue for HBCUs during the 2017-2018 academic year was 
$8.7 billion, with $1.9 billion coming from student tuition and 
fees.
    Compared to the Harvard's of the world, the HBCU revenue 
model relies heavily on tuition and financial aid. Very few 
have cultivated large endowments, and this has led some to 
doubt the ability of HBCUs to sustain best-in-class leadership 
and compete with other colleges for top talent.
    The Department of Education's Capital Financing Program 
provides more than $500 million in loans to HBCUs as a 
temporary bridge as a solution, giving schools flexibility to 
diversify their revenue streams, expand private sector 
partnerships, and realign their program offerings to more 
closely mirror the Nation's projected workforce needs.
    HBCUs, like many colleges nationwide, can expand their 
sustainability through private sector collaboration, and 
Congress has a role to play by advancing policies that drive 
down costs and allow innovation to flourish.
    It is time for the Federal policymakers to fundamentally 
rethink how higher education is financed and delivered and move 
toward policies that will lower cost and increase flexibility 
for students.
    For both HBCUs and non-HBCUs alike, the introduction of 
innovative policies such as income share accounts--agreements 
and accreditation reform, can put higher education on a path to 
meeting the needs of industry and academia while being good 
stewards of student and taxpayer resources for generations to 
come.
    Limiting the growth of Federal subsidies will help colleges 
focus on their core academic missions while helping students 
leave school with less debt. Today's 101 HBCUs are adversity-
hardened and time-tested.
    As an HBCU graduate, I believe our invaluable institutions 
will thrive, for the ultimate measure of our Nation's vitality 
and strength is the ability of its people and its institutions 
to prevail in times of challenge and controversy. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sailor follows:]

                  Prepared Statement of Angela Sailor
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so, so much. And 
let us remember the research that is so important when we deal 
with our HBCUs that is missing.
    And now we will hear from Dr. Glenda Glover. She is the 
president of Tennessee State University, an HBCU, which brings 
it right home in Nashville, Tennessee. She is also the 
international president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, 
Incorporated. That is my sorority, and that is the sorority of 
our Vice President, Kamala Harris.
    Previously, Dr. Glover served as dean of the College of 
Business at Jackson State University, an HBCU in Jackson, 
Mississippi. She served as J.D.--I am sorry--she received her 
J.D. from Georgetown University. She is also a recipient of a 
Ph.D. in business from George Washington University. She earned 
an MBA from Clark Atlanta University and a B.A. from Tennessee 
State University.
    Welcome, Dr. Glover.

    STATEMENT OF GLENDA GLOVER, PRESIDENT, TENNESSEE STATE 
                           UNIVERSITY

    Ms. Glover. Thank you. Chairman Wilson, Chair Scott, 
Ranking Member Murphy, Ranking Member Foxx, and Members of the 
Committee, thank you for allowing this important dialog on the 
record regarding HBCUs.
    I am Glenda Glover, and I serve as president of Tennessee 
State University in Nashville.
    Tennessee State is a comprehensive, urban land-grant HBCU 
with over 8,000 students, offering degrees at the bachelor, 
master, and doctorate levels.
    Our country cannot reach its goals without strong, 
sustainable HBCUs, goals necessary to close the education gap, 
the health gap, the wealth, and economic gaps.
    HBCUs have changed the college landscape, made enormous 
contributions, and achieved in spite of continuous challenges 
and limited resources. For example, as has been said, HBCUs 
account for just 3 percent of colleges in this country but 
produce 22 percent of bachelor degrees earned by African 
Americans, 25 percent of African Americans with STEM degrees, 
50 percent of African-American school teachers, 50 percent of 
African-American lawyers, 50 percent of African-American 
doctors, and 3 percent of African-American judges. Twenty-four 
percent of Ph.D. s earned each year by African Americans are 
conferred by HBCUs.
    Almost 50 percent of the Members of the congressional Black 
Caucus attended HBCUs, and the Vice President of these United 
States graduated from an HBCU.
    These achievements were earned despite the fact that 
funding has been disproportionate, and endowments were 7 
percent less than that of White institutions. HBCUs have 
consistently had to do more with less. So we are pleased to 
present this value proposition of HBCUs and ascribe their 
funding needs.
    The Build Back Better Act is a game-changer. It reflects 
the administration's understanding of the importance of 
investing in HBCUs, as HBCUs continue their role in resolving 
many of the challenges that threaten the general welfare and 
prosperity of our country.
    We want to thank Congress for your support last year as you 
made emergency funds, stimulus funds available for higher 
education, including HBCUs. Those funds assisted our students 
when they had to return to their homes and could not do their 
online assignments because many had limited to no connectivity 
or no technology devices.
    So, with the stimulus funding, we were able to provide 
technology devices and assist students financially and upgrade 
the technology infrastructure to support online learning.
    And HBCU capital financing program was extraordinary and 
eliminated debt of all these HBCUs that had the debt, and we 
thank you. So today we are actually continuing that financial 
support of HBCUs, not just on an emergency basis but to invest 
in HBCUs to help them to become more competitive and 
sustainable, fully benefiting the national economy.
    HBCUs were founded over 185 years ago to educate newly 
freed slaves, and HBCUs remain at the frontlines of educating 
students who need access to the transformative power of higher 
education, despite discrimination in funding, diverted funding, 
and inadequate facilities.
    So we are here asking for your assistance. We need funds in 
several areas, funds in areas such as deferred maintenance, 
infrastructure, technology, new academic programs, and 
research.
    Finally, we are often asked the question and others ponder 
it, why do we still need HBCUs? That is the wrong question. The 
question should be, how did these colleges and universities 
have so little and produce so much, and how can their model be 
used by other institutions to advance our great country? That 
is the question.
    At HBCUs, we see Black excellence at its best. We ask you 
to strengthen HBCUs, support the students they serve, and close 
the gaps by making much-needed investments in HBCUs that 
address historic discrimination and underfunding and put HBCUs 
on equal footing with majority institutions.
    We are asking Congress to right this wrong. It is never too 
late to do what is right. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Glover follows:]

                  Prepared Statement of Glenda Glover
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, and I would be remiss 
if I didn't also note that Dr. Adams, the other hat lady, is a 
Member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority also and is proud to have 
her national president here with us today.
    Under Committee Rule 9(a), we will now question witnesses 
under the five-minute rule. I will be recognizing Subcommittee 
Members in seniority order.
    Again, to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is 
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time, and a timer 
will sound when time has expired. Please be attentive--please 
be attentive--to the time. Wrap up when your time is over and 
remute your microphone.
    As Chairwoman, I now recognize myself for five minutes.
    Dr. Glover, can you elaborate on the systemic underfunding 
and the impact that continues at Tennessee State University? 
The report showed that the State owed you $544 million due to 
historical underfunding.
    Ms. Glover. Thank you. Tennessee State is a land-grant 
institution. There are two in Tennessee: Tennessee State, and 
the University of Tennessee. These institutions receive funding 
to focus on teaching and practical agriculture and science and 
engineering.
    When I became president of TSU, we looked at the funds that 
had not been distributed to TSU. We looked at funding that the 
other land grant had received and wondered why there was no 
match for Tennessee State University.
    Additionally, there is funding required by--that the State 
had a ruling that Tennessee State would receive one-third of 
the amount of funds that the other institution received. So 
there was nothing in the budget for Tennessee State. Nothing. 
There was--for 50 years, we went back about 50 years, there was 
nothing in the budget to even account for it.
    This speaks of a need for more oversight and other areas we 
can get to. But the underfunding was calculated back from the 
late 1950's to present. And the number came to from $150 
million to $544 million.
    We are currently working with the State legislature. We are 
currently working with the Committee that was put together for 
last fall to ensure that TSU enters into conversations about 
the money, the arrears that is owed, and we made some success 
on that.
    We don't know--I can't really say where we are at this 
particular point in time with the dollar amounts that is owed 
to TSU, but we do believe we are making some progress.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
    And I suppose, Dr. Baskerville, that is true of other 
underfunded HBCUs. Is there more that Congress and the 
administration can do, Dr. Baskerville, to help these HBCUs as 
they compete for critical funds? They graduate with 
substantially higher levels of debt than their peers, and we 
want them, HBCUs, to have research dollars and scholarships. 
What can Congress do? What should Congress do?
    Ms. Baskerville. Yes, Madam Chair. I will answer the 
question, but I would like to set it up in the context that 
what we have with Tennessee State University is not unique. In 
fact, it is part of a pattern and practice of de jure 
discrimination against public historically Black colleges, 
particularly the 1890 land-grant institutions.
    In a report by the association for public land-grant 
institutions found that from 2010 to 2012, 61 percent of 100 of 
the 1890 land-grant institutions did not receive 100 percent of 
the one-to-one match funds from their respective States for 
extension and research funding.
    Go back to the special relationship. When Congress 
established the 1862 land-grant institutions, as with the 1890 
land-grant institutions, as with the 1862, they required a 
State match for the dollars being invested in the 1890's.
    And so, between 2010 and 2012, 61 percent of the 1890's 
land grant did not receive their dollars. Between 2010 and 
2012, 18 land-grant universities did not receive more than $31 
million in extension funding due to States not meeting their 
one-to-one match requirements.
    From 2010 to 2012, 1890 land-grant universities did not 
receive more than $25 million in research funding, due to 
States not meeting their one-to-one match.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville, let me ask you this. In 
response to 2018 survey conducted by the Government 
Accountability Office, responding to, HBCUs reported that 
nearly half of their building spaces on average is a need of 
repair and replacement. What can we do to fix that?
    Ms. Baskerville. We need the U.S. Congress to recognize 
these institutions as central to the progress of America.
    In terms of research, we have 11 research 2 institutions, 
research institutions that are high research intensive, that if 
they were invested in commensurate with their return on 
investment, they would have additional infrastructures, money 
for laboratory, money for additional centers of excellence, 
additional dollars to utilize both corporate and government 
laboratories, and to do a number of things that will position 
them to move from research 1--research 2 to research 1 
institutions.
    In fact, NAFEO recommends that you consider an EPSCoR type 
of relationship for the R2 institutions, where the scientific 
departments and agencies would pool their resources and work 
with these 11 intently to move them from research 2 to research 
1 so that they can sit in the driver's seat in developing the 
types of scientific inventions, and particularly at this time 
in the health field, that can help to move America from where 
we are today to where we need to be.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Dr. Murphy for his 
questions. Dr. Murphy?
    Mr. Murphy. Yes, thank you, Madam Chairman, and again, 
thank you to all of the witnesses coming today. Excellent 
testimony.
    And I will just say again a bit of a shout-out to Karrie 
Dixon at Elizabeth State University because she has done just a 
tremendous job at Elizabeth City State University. They have a 
tremendous aviation program, and she has taken that place from 
very, very tough times to be an absolute gem within our 
district.
    So let me ask a couple questions if we will.
    Ms. Sailor, if you don't mind, you noted in your testimony 
that Obama-era gainful employment rule, that the rule was 
particularly harmful to the HBCU community. Would you mind 
fleshing that out a little bit for me and discussing that?
    Ms. Sailor. Sure. And thank you for the question. You know, 
as we look at balancing the needs of students and the 
institutions and being able to protect both and you look at the 
gainful employment regulation, if you will, Trump was concerned 
and many were concerned that harm could come to HBCUs and other 
institutions of higher learning across the country where the 
ability to not define, if you will, the requirements of 
connectivity between the program and actually the outcome that 
the student would receive in terms of gainful employment.
    And so that rule in terms of focusing on disclosure is very 
important to begin to relax that and create another flexibility 
for HBCUs and institutions of higher learning not to be harmed.
    Mr. Murphy. OK.
    Ms. Sailor. And so, again, you know, we want to make sure 
that students are going to engage in programs that are going to 
lead to employment, but at the same time, there has to be a 
balancing of where that accountability comes and where the 
institutions themselves can also be protected in their programs 
that they offer.
    Mr. Murphy. All right. Well, I appreciate that, Ms. Sailor, 
and I will tell you, I think it has been a mantra that has 
happened--I am in medicine, I have been a surgeon for 30 
years--so much in medicine now is accountability.
    And I don't think our institutions of higher education are 
by any means exempt from that, and I think there needs to be a 
lot more accountability at all institutions, not just 
specifically HBCUs but all institutions because I think the 
faucet of Federal money has led to some of that just not being 
accountable.
    So, you know, I think outcomes are important. I think we 
have to look at what institutions are doing with their money, 
and are they giving the students the education that they 
deserve, and are they giving them what they are paying for? Are 
we getting the taxpayers what they are doing? So I think this 
is, again, across every institution.
    So as the Committee looks to reauthorize the Higher 
Education Act, do you have any specific suggestions as to what 
the accountability framework should look like?
    Ms. Sailor. Yes. You know, there has to always be 
transparency. I think that will continue to be an essential 
factor in making sure that the relationship between the 
student, the taxpayer, and the institution is going to render 
us what we are looking for.
    I mean, ultimately, we want to make sure that students are 
going to graduate and be employed, and we want to make sure 
that they are going to be able to realize their dreams and 
contribute to society. And we see in 2020 that just 6 in 10 
students completed a 4-year bachelor's degree in 6 years.
    And so, as we are looking at these reforms of 
accountability, we need to continue to make sure that the 
mission of what the school is trying to do, in terms of the 
academic onset of the educational experience to the workplace, 
is met.
    And, you know, it is critically important as well to 
continue to allow the voices of industry to be at the table, in 
terms of looking at those reforms and how they need to work, 
and the collaboration between the institutions, toward making 
sure that the students are equipped to do the jobs that will be 
available.
    Mr. Murphy. Right. Thank you. I appreciate the comments.
    I just think, again, putting the private sector in, because 
that is where most jobs are--and they demand accountability--
that we actually have to ask higher education institutions, all 
of them, HBCUs and everybody else, to put out a product that is 
worthy of the money instilled in it.
    So I thank you all again.
    Thank you so much, Madam Chairman. I am going to yield 
back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much for your 
questioning. And as far as accountability, we will followup on 
that and agree.
    Ms. Manning of North Carolina.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    And I want to thank all of our witnesses for being with us 
today to talk about this very important topic.
    I have three wonderful HBCUs in my district, including 
North Carolina A&T, which I believe is now the largest and has 
had a lot of accolades this year, including Olympic athletes 
who recently competed in the Olympics, and we have one gold 
medal winner. So I just want to shout out to them.
    Dr. Perry, you mentioned in your testimony the important 
role that HBCUs play in educating Black students in the STEM 
field. Can you talk about the impact that Federal investments 
have had on the ability of HBCUs to enhance STEM education and 
support the innovation in the economy?
    Mr. Perry. Yes. The reason why I talked about the 
importance of graduates in the STEM field is because it is 
clear that the economy is moving toward one in which you have 
to be highly skilled, particularly in science, technology, 
engineering, and math.
    In spite of a lack of investment in those institutions, 
HBCUs are producing a higher percentage. Now, when we are 
talking about performance and accountability, there are lots of 
predominantly White institutions that are not holding up their 
fair share of the bargain.
    And so at the end of the day, we as an economy, if it is 
going to grow, it is going to grow because we graduate STEM 
majors at a higher percentage. And right now many institutions 
aren't doing that, but HBCUs are.
    And, in addition, I just want to be clear that HBCUs have 
always produced in this area, but they have been devalued. Less 
patents are given out to STEM graduates. Less investment into 
the graduates.
    And so we could do so much more if we saw investments in 
those institutions and the graduates they produce.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you.
    I want to do a followup on that, because as I meet with 
business leaders across the country, and this is a moment in 
time when many businesses are looking to diversify their 
workforces, I hear a lot of them talk about the fact that they 
can't find people in the STEM fields and they can't find 
people, particularly in engineering.
    We graduate lots of great people in the STEM fields and in 
engineering. What can we do to promote those graduates and make 
sure that employers are looking at our great HBCUs for the 
kinds of employees they say they are having trouble finding?
    Mr. Perry. Yes. One of the things, and I don't know if you 
can hold people accountable to this, but when employers say 
that they can't find Black workers in the STEM field, and they 
are particularly in the South, they clearly don't have a 
relationship with HBCUs.
    In places like Alabama, North Carolina, several HBCUs 
produce the graduates, but they don't have the connections to 
industry. And so if they are not going to reach out, we do need 
to build some type of bridge, and it can include social 
interaction.
    South by Southwest. You have OHUB, which I mentioned, that 
takes Black graduates or students from HBCUs to South by 
Southwest to essentially introduce them to funders, companies, 
and the sort, to make those kind of introductions, because we 
know so much of investment is about relationships.
    And so if employers aren't going to just recognize the 
talent, then we have to somehow make those graduates more 
visible. So I have been really high on creating initiatives 
that essentially display the talent. The Bayou Classic, for 
instance, the historic game between Southern and Grambling, 
they have a pitch competition there in which the winner from an 
HBCU gets a certain amount of investment funds.
    We need to do just more of that. But let's be clear. There 
are a lot of people who say that they can't find Black workers, 
and that is just a reflection of bias in labor markets, which 
don't make much sense.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you, sir.
    Dr. Glover, a quick question for you. We are starting to 
see mega-donors who are noticing HBCUs as places where they 
want to make donations. How do we expand upon this to attract 
more donations to HBCUs?
    Ms. Glover. I think it starts with having the public-
private partnerships and expanding to the corporate community, 
to ensure that there are relationships with the corporate 
community. Relationships bring about more gifts and 
contributions.
    And then when schools are doing things in the community and 
in the corporate world, in the industrial world, in government, 
when you are doing things that will show that you are 
competitive, and you have students that are competitive.
    It is about student success. It is about teachers and 
faculty and staff coming together to ensure student success. 
And you ensure student success by putting them in the workplace 
when they are competent, putting the right processes in place 
to ensure that they are successful, enhance their future.
    So you make these partnerships, and you continue to meet 
and make more corporate and noncorporate relationships.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you so much. I thank the witnesses.
    And I will yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, Ms. Manning.
    And now, Mr. Grothman of Wisconsin.
    Mr. Grothman. Sure. I don't have any historic universities 
like this in my district, but nevertheless, there are a variety 
of issues I think are a concern across all of academia. And I 
will start with Mrs. Sailor.
    I notice in the materials that we have that there are 
shocking numbers of student loan debt for students who have 
attended these institutions. We also have the same problem in a 
variety of institutions in Wisconsin.
    Some administrators feel that what we ought to do is we 
ought to allow the universities themselves to have to sign off 
on student loan debt. They feel that young people, being what 
young people are, they sometimes take out student loan debt in 
excess of what they actually need.
    And do you think it would be a good idea, Mrs. Sailor, or 
maybe one of the other witnesses later on, would you like the 
ability, do you think these universities would like the ability 
to say, ``Hey, wait a minute, you don't need $5,000 in debt 
this semester, you can make do with $3,000 of debt''? Do you 
think that would be a good idea?
    Mrs. Sailor. Thank you for the question.
    As young people are coming into the workplace and becoming 
independent, being able to wrap our arms around them as they 
are making critical decisions that are going to impact their 
lives and the lives of the next generation, I think providing 
support and counsel to students as they are deciding to take 
out a loan and understanding what that is going to mean.
    What is that going to mean in terms of what you have got to 
pay back and how it has to be paid. What does that mean in 
terms of the earnings that you are----
    Mr. Grothman. Would you like the--do you think the 
universities would like the ability to say, ``No, you cannot 
take out a loan of that size, we don't think it is in your best 
interest''?
    Mrs. Sailor. I think universities would like to be in a 
collaboration with students and have the opportunity to give 
them counsel toward that end, yes.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Then I will ask Dr. Glover.
    Would you like the ability to have to sign off before a 
student took out a loan?
    Ms. Glover. There are various pots of money from which 
students choose to finance their education, and some have more 
options than others. There are some that have no other option 
but to get a loan. They have to----
    Mr. Grothman. OK. The question is, though, the size of the 
loan.
    Ms. Glover. No, I understand the question quite well. Your 
question is totally understood. But I am saying to you, if a 
student has no other choice but to get a loan, it is up to us 
to help them manage the loan, to make sure they don't borrow 
too much money, not money for things they don't need but money 
for education.
    So if they don't live on the right side of the track and 
don't sit around the table and have someone say, ``I am going 
to cash in my CD to give you money to go to school,'' we don't 
have that in our population many times.
    So those students have to borrow money to go to school. And 
I applaud them for getting funds to go to school. I would 
rather they borrow money and go to college than not go to 
college.
    But here is where we come in. We will assist them and say, 
``You only need to borrow enough to cover this. You don't need 
to borrow enough for your cell phone bill each month, et 
cetera, et cetera.''
    Mr. Grothman. Would you like the ability to tell a student, 
``You cannot take that amount out''?
    Mrs. Sailor. We do that. We do that at HBCUs. We will say 
to them, ``You actually don't need a loan. We are going to help 
you find another source of funds.'' And we do. We help them 
find scholarships from other places. If they cannot get a 
scholarship, we have alumni to come to their rescue.
    Loans are the last resort in many, many cases, and that is 
what we do most of the time.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
    Now, I notice nationwide we have a problem. I am looking at 
an article in the Washington Examiner: ``Democratic professors 
outnumber Republicans 9 to 1 at top colleges.''
    Recently, I talked to a professor at a private college in 
Wisconsin. He felt less than 2 percent of the professors at his 
college were for Donald Trump. I think diversity of thought is 
very important in universities everywhere.
    I will ask Mrs. Sailor, do you feel that where you went to 
college there was a diversity of thought, or were the 
professors tilting toward one way ideologically or the other? 
Could this be a problem in some of these universities?
    Mrs. Sailor. Well, we see studies across the Nation, and 
there is a great tension about diversity of thought in 
academia, and it is a growing concern. And as we have seen the 
onset of cancel culture coming from both the left and the 
right, across the spectrum in terms of issues that can be 
shared, I do think there is a growing concern about diversity 
of thought.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. When you went to college, did you find a 
lot of or any Republican-leaning professors, or could you tell 
an ideological sway one way or the other?
    Mrs. Sailor. I had a very unique experience in terms of 
talking to others, and I felt that I had a pretty balanced 
experience there. My professors who were in the field of 
economics and dealing with kind of finances tended to lean more 
conservative, Republican, if you will.
    But in the humanities, I found at times--I wasn't sure--
one's political leaning back and forth, because I found that I 
got a balance of being able to read literature that espoused 
different viewpoints.
    And in my own right, I always sought to try to compare 
ideologies across the spectrum in terms of my studies in order 
to keep myself in a position to be able to define my viewpoint 
for myself.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
    Let me remind the witnesses and the Members, please, in 
order for us to remain online, we have a block of time. There 
are other committees meeting at the same time as we are.
    When you expand your time, you hurt our ability to 
broadcast to the thousands of people who are interested in 
HBCUs, and we have thousands on this call now. So let's be 
mindful of the time that has been allotted to us.
    Thank you so much.
    And now we are going to hear from Ms. Jayapal, who is our 
progressive champion from Washington.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Really 
appreciate that.
    And thank you to all of you for being here with us today.
    I am so proud to support debt-free degrees for all 
students, but especially those at HBCUs, because these 
institutions are engines of success for the communities they 
serve and for our Nation. They prepare Black students to 
succeed, and many are the first in their families to go to 
college.
    But we do face a lack of equitable funding that burdens 
that mission. And as we consider investments, we can make to 
address all the challenges faced by students at HBCUs, 
addressing disparities in funding has to be part of that 
strategy if we are going to really improve affordability and 
success.
    And I want to thank my colleague Alma Adams for being 
somebody who is constantly talking about the importance of 
this.
    Dr. Perry, in the work that you talk about--in your work 
you talk about how expected student loan debt is a barrier to 
low-income students and students of color attending college, 
especially for students attending HBCUs. My bill, the College 
for All Act, addresses that challenge by helping low-and 
middle-income HBCU students attend tuition-free and by doubling 
the Pell grant.
    What impact would investments in free college and the Pell 
grant have on low-income students' ability to afford and 
complete college, especially at HBCUs?
    Mr. Perry. Yes. My colleague Carl Romer and I did a study 
on how canceling debt will close the racial wealth gap. And we 
see that the more debt you cancel, the more you close the 
longstanding racial wealth divide in this country.
    In addition to closing the wealth gap, you are essentially 
creating professionals in high-growth industries, which 
accelerates the economy even further.
    And so the more we can graduate folks from the 
underappreciated assets in our communities, meaning if you just 
add water it will grow, so to speak, and HBCUs are among those 
underappreciated assets, and so many of them are not receiving 
the investment, and we could get more growth, close racial 
wealth gaps, and improve the community overall.
    And I will just add this point to address one of the other 
comments that was made.
    We really do need a true public option in terms of free 
college. We talk about holding systems accountable. We actually 
have that amongst State colleges in a sense of the spikes in 
tuition have not occurred at the same level at the State 
colleges, because State legislatures essentially guard against 
that. And so let's not conflate all institutions.
    Now, certainly, I also agree we should be rewarding 
institutions that graduate Black students at a higher rate. And 
so not to say, hey, only public institutions should get free 
college, but we should also incentivize those colleges who 
graduate Black students at a higher rate.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. Thank you so much. And we actually 
looked at that in Washington State. Because of the State 
legislature's investments, we were able to keep the rising cost 
of college lower, but it is still extremely unaffordable for 
too many.
    President Glover, in my district our State and cities 
invest in tuition-free programs, like Seattle Promise, which 
serves more than 60 percent of low-income students of color 
annually, and a third are first generation. It is successful 
exactly for the reason we were just talking about. It uses 
State and local funds, but in addition to improve wraparound 
services like counseling and mentorship.
    How does a State's failure to provide equitable investment 
in your school impact its ability to provide wraparound 
services for students most in need?
    Ms. Glover. Well, it has a profound effect, because without 
the funding, the services are not readily available without the 
proper funding. And so we are trying now to let students know 
about the various services, let them take part in the various 
services.
    Wraparound services are very important. Housing. What is a 
quiet fact is that many schools have homeless populations. For 
Tennessee State, we make sure that students have housing year-
round, because we know the population we serve.
    And then the other services, the counseling services. This 
COVID crisis has brought about a higher level of depression 
among students. And students are eager to tell you now, ``I 
need some counseling. I need some assistance.'' Those days are 
over when it was taboo to talk about the fact that you needed 
to speak with someone because you are having some issues.
    We have telecounseling 24/7, not just Tennessee State, but 
many HBCUs have stepped up to the plate and begun to put these 
wraparound services together for students so students can be 
enhanced throughout their entire academic career.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. My time has expired, Madam 
Chair. Conscious of your words, I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much.
    And now, Mr. Banks.
    Mr. Banks. Thank you.
    Last Congress, I introduced the Pell Grant Flexibility Act, 
which would allow Pell grants to be used for technical 
education.
    Unfortunately, my Democrat colleagues on this Committee 
refused to bring it up for a vote even though it had bipartisan 
support.
    Now we are finding out that one of the main threats to 
HBCUs is their inability to remain competitive with both 
traditional 4-year colleges and trade schools.
    According to Andrew Kelly of the American Enterprise 
Institute, only 14 percent of children from the bottom third of 
the income distribution curve will complete 4-year college 
degrees, and many of these students will go on to complete some 
form of technical education.
    Mrs. Sailor, what effect would offering technical education 
have on HBCUs in terms of student enrollment and 
competitiveness?
    Mrs. Sailor. Thank you.
    I think what is critically important in the days that we 
live in is to be able to offer people options and choices so 
that they can tailor for themselves and customize for 
themselves the professional upscaling that they want in the 
areas that they desire to go.
    And, again, you can't find a parent who is looking to be in 
debt, and you can't find a student who is looking to be in 
debt, but people are looking for options and ways to get to the 
finish line in the way that will best fit their needs.
    And so I think, again, options are critical, and the more 
options and the more awareness that people have about them and 
where those options lead them, I think is nothing but an asset 
to being able to make wise decisions.
    Mr. Banks. Can you talk for a minute about how Pell grant 
flexibility would help specifically do that, provide more 
options for HBCUs to provide technical education?
    Mrs. Sailor. Well, yes. I mean, it would give the financial 
support for the low-income student who is from the underserved 
community that option as a way to matriculate through the 
system.
    Some people know directly what they want to be. They don't 
want to be a generalist, per se. They have got their eye on a 
specific job that they are going for. And that will create yet 
another opportunity for them to chart a course that may be a 
better course for their life or a better choice for their life 
and where they want to go.
    Mr. Banks. Thank you.
    One of the numerous crises plaguing higher education is the 
disappearance of men. According to The Wall Street Journal, men 
now make up only 40 percent of students enrolled in traditional 
4-year universities.
    However, this discrepancy is even more stark at HBCUs. 
According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 
female enrollment at HBCUs has been higher than male enrollment 
every year since 1976. The percentage of female enrollment at 
HBCUs increased from 53 percent in 1976 to 63 percent in 2019, 
which is higher than the national average.
    Mrs. Sailor, what is the root cause of the drastic gender 
disparity at HBCUs? And what effect does this have on minority 
communities as a whole?
    Mrs. Sailor. Well, I think when you look at the Black male 
population across the board, and we look at high prison rates, 
and we look at the distribution of opportunities against 
females and males, this is a challenge for us as a Nation 
across the board.
    So I think it is hard to take that conversation and just 
narrow it down to just specifically historically Black colleges 
and universities, but across the Nation we have an issue with 
what is happening to the Black male in our country and the 
leadership opportunity there.
    Mr. Banks. Can you talk at all about what HBCUs are doing 
to address the gender gap?
    Mrs. Sailor. Well, I mean, as I look and talk to leaders in 
the HBCU community, there are major efforts in terms of trying 
to do recruitment and looking at partnerships, even before 
students graduate from high school, in terms of creating 
interest and opportunities there.
    You see a lot of this happening with the ROTC programs and 
the Junior ROTC programs toward getting interest of males into 
higher education and on the HBCU campuses toward that end, 
which also creates opportunities for funding other education as 
they begin to serve our Nation.
    Mr. Banks. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
    Such an important topic, and that is why we, Congress, have 
established the Commission on the Social Status of Black Men 
and Boys. And on this Committee today, there are three Members, 
Mr. Bowman, myself, and Mrs. McBath.
    We have found that on our HBCU campuses, 70 percent of the 
student body are female students. In Atlanta, only Spelman 
College exceeds that, and they are an all-girls college.
    In fact, I worked with Tennessee State this last year, 
school year, to help increase their Black male population by 
sending them 12 Black boys to Tennessee State from 
Jacksonville, Florida, and Miami-Dade County, Florida, to help 
incentivize other Black males to attend college. And you have 
got to do that from beginning in the third grade.
    So thank you so much for that. That is right down my alley.
    And our next Member, it is down his alley, too. We are both 
former principals.
    Mr. Bowman of New York.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I rarely, if 
ever, disagree with you, but I am going to slightly disagree 
that we need to begin the college-bound process in pre-K with 
our young men, just to plant the seeds before they even start 
kindergarten.
    First, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today 
and to express a special thank you to the HBCU Caucus founder 
and co-Chair, Congresswoman Adams, as well as to Chairwoman 
Wilson, for their continued relentless advocacy and leadership 
over the years and in making this hearing happen today.
    While there are no HBCUs in my district, where I represent 
parts of Westchester and the Bronx--by the way, we may need to 
talk about that, Chairwoman. All the HBCUs are in the South. I 
am up here in the Northeast. We could get one or two in the 
Northeast. Well, there is one, Medgar Evers in Brooklyn. We 
need one in the Bronx.
    I do have constituents who attend HBCUs out of State. It 
important to ensure that opportunity remains an option for 
generations of Black students to come.
    I have a question about STEM education for Dr. Baskerville.
    Dr. Baskerville, thank you so much for your testimony 
today. I would like to discuss STEM investments in HBCUs.
    In addition to sitting on this Committee, I serve as the 
Subcommittee Chair on Energy for the Science, Space, and 
Technology Committee.
    On both committees, it is clear to me we need to do more in 
STEM education, not only in higher education but in K to 12 as 
well. Studies have shown that the percentage of Black students 
earning STEM bachelor's degrees nationwide has declined in 
recent years, but we also know that HBCUs play an outsized role 
in awarding STEM degrees to Black students.
    So my question is, what do HBCUs do differently from non-
HBCUs in this regard? And what lessons can other colleges and 
universities learn from HBCUs about effective STEM education 
and exposure to STEM career opportunities?
    Ms. Baskerville. Thank you so very, very much, Congressman 
Bowman. I would like to say that we are delighted that you do 
have predominantly Black institutions that NAFEO worked to 
help. And Medgar Evers is one, LaGuardia is one. I think three 
or four of the CUNY colleges are PBIs, and they align with 
NAFEO, that also has that subset.
    Relative to STEM, HBCUs are doing a number of things, as 
you suggest, to begin pre-K and work your way up. One of the 
things that NAFEO did for 10 years, in a partnership with NTIA, 
National Telecommunications Information Administration, was to 
shape and then execute and evaluate Techno Scholars.
    All the data suggested that boys are interested in 
technology and if you keep them busy on whatever are the 
current technological devices, they will excel.
    So we identified six HBCUs. We were able to get them 
technology devices, and we partnered them with young men at the 
HBCUs who were mentors. So they had a mentor that looked like 
them, came from their background and so forth, and they had the 
devices.
    Their graduation rates went up substantially as compared 
with the Black men that were in their class that were not 
Techno Scholars. So they got their lessons on the technology, 
and as rewards they were given games, programs, that they 
enjoyed playing.
    There is another group, Quality Education for Minorities, 
that Dr. Ivory Toldson was the last president. But they are 
also looking for innovative ways to engage in the pipeline with 
the TRIO Programs.
    TRIO in the last few years, with tremendous support from 
Chairman Scott and others on this Committee, started a program, 
Upward Bound STEM, recognizing that in that tenth grade, if you 
focus on STEM, you can work.
    So we are doing many things. There is a lot more that we 
can do. But now we are evaluating, and hopefully we will have a 
report on which ones seem to be most promising.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for that response.
    As a middle school principal, I was one of the only middle 
schools in the Bronx to offer a computer science program to our 
kids. And that is something, as we think about K to 12 schools, 
I think we could do a lot more of, in partnership with HBCUs.
    Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mr. 
Bowman. And I would be remiss if I did not recognize Chairman 
Scott and his work with Black boys and men also today.
    And now our next Member, Mrs. Miller-Meeks of Iowa.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
    Thank you, Ranking Member Foxx.
    And thank you to all of our panelists for this very 
interesting discussion. I have had the opportunity to visit 
several HBCUs, not in my State but elsewhere, and have always 
been impressed with the work that they do.
    And this wasn't originally where I was going to go with my 
questioning, but I am going to followup on something that 
Representative Banks had asked earlier.
    I am a 24-year military veteran, left home at 16, the 
fourth of eight kids, in order to find a way to get to medical 
school.
    And so I thought it was interesting, one of the comments 
that you had made earlier, Mrs. Sailor, in your testimony, both 
in your testimony, in your written testimony, and then your 
comments to Representative Banks, in trying to get young men, 
young Black men into college, and to address the gender gap and 
gender disparity.
    But you mentioned the HBCUs' collaboration with Reserve 
Officer Training Corps, or ROTC, on campuses to cultivate 
future military officers. And that said, 25 percent of the 
HBCUs currently participate in a ROTC program.
    Are there specific barriers preventing more HBCUs from 
collaboration? I think this would be a win-win both for our 
country, for Black men, and for HBCUs.
    Mrs. Sailor. Thank you for the question. And I have to just 
say this as well: My husband and I have two children at West 
Point.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Oh, my gosh.
    Mrs. Sailor. And we just have a special place in our heart 
for that type of training. I have a son, and I can't imagine 
wanting him in a more secure discipline program, if you will, 
as he is becoming a young man.
    But as we have at The Heritage Foundation been working with 
ROTC programs on HBCU campuses, one of the things that we 
notice in terms of conversation about some of the barriers is 
it requires funding.
    And we see that collaboration has come into play as a way 
to overcome that barrier, where you have got, like in the State 
of Virginia, where Hampton University and others collaborate 
together and bring those university systems together to use 
those resources collectively.
    We even see that happening at institutions like Harvard and 
MIT, where they collaborate those resources together in order 
to give those students the best experience that they can have 
and the best exposures that they can have. And so I think it is 
super important as we continue to look at this as a model.
    There is another instance here, in terms of looking at 
making sure that the workplace development piece is synched and 
aligned with the need. And one of the areas where we have 
talked with HBCUs is that cybersecurity area is not as strong 
as it could be, in terms of looking at military preparedness. 
And there are several of the institutions that are looking at 
how to funnel and channel and collaborate to make those areas 
of study stronger.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. And it is interesting you are bringing 
that up, because Representative Bowman just talked about STEM 
education, and I think Mr. Perry did in his testimony as well, 
and the success in HBCUs in graduating in science degrees and 
further science degrees and computer technological.
    So, I mean, certainly that is a value to the military. It 
is a value to their education and would certainly facilitate 
careers in technology, in computer, in cybersecurity, which we 
know from recent events is critically important to our Nation. 
So is there something that we can do in Congress to help 
facilitate that collaboration?
    Mrs. Sailor. Yes. I think as we make this more and more of 
a priority, as we talk about policy and the need for military 
preparedness, I think it is especially important, because it 
puts HBCUs again in a conversation about being an American 
asset that is being bolstered toward competitiveness and 
military preparedness.
    And so I think that from a public relations standpoint and 
from a programmatic standpoint, it is essential for us to 
continue these conversations and look at policies that expand 
opportunities there.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much for your testimony and 
those of our witnesses.
    And Madam Chair, I yield back my time.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    And now my friend from New York, Mr. Espaillat.
    Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Chairwoman. Thank you so much for 
allowing me to ask some of the questions.
    My first question is, how has the lack of funding, the 
disparity in funding at the HBCUs contributed to any issues 
with student retention? Anybody that would like to answer that.
    Dr. Glenda Glover?
    Ms. Glover. Well, the various needs of HBCUs expand across 
several categories, and most of those categories affect whether 
or not students attend your university and sometimes whether 
they return.
    The needs are so great in various areas. The infrastructure 
and deferred maintenance, that is a huge one for HBCUs and 
schools. Some of the schools are crumbling. The infrastructure 
needs extensive work.
    I have spoken to other college presidents. The deferred 
maintenance can be as high as $100 million, $200 million. It is 
$300 million on Tennessee State's campus. That is how much, how 
deferred maintenance. That means where you learn and where you 
live. That is where that becomes so important. When it rains 
outside, many times it rains inside also.
    So infrastructure is one.
    The technology. Technology. Students understand they live 
in the technological age, and they want to have the various 
types of technology, including advanced computing capabilities 
and networks.
    So the funding that has been denied over the years, the 
systemic historical diverted funding that HBCUs have not 
received, that makes a difference when students are looking at 
schools.
    And then the programs. Funding. The lack of funding has 
resulted in various programs not being able to be offered at 
various universities.
    And then, of course, the research. I know many students 
don't really say no to a school because of research, but they 
definitely will look at the other areas on the campus as a 
whole and the offers that are there. So that hurts and helps 
with recruiting and retention.
    Mr. Espaillat. But even with these disadvantages, HBCUs and 
the Hispanic-serving institutions, as well as other minority-
serving institutions, have contributed to closing the racial 
and ethnic wealth gap in higher education.
    Do you have any data of the important role that these 
institutions have played in closing the wealth gap by the 
opportunities that even within these disadvantages are 
presented to students?
    Ms. Glover. Well, even with the lack of funding, HBCUs have 
excelled. And we won't have to look at the stats anymore, but 
if you take a student who would have gone to college and who 
didn't go for whatever reason, we stopped the student. They 
didn't have the funding. Lack of funding prevents students from 
going to school. There is no scholarship money available. There 
are other pots of funding that are not available.
    And so then you become one of the statistics. If you make--
I think BLS, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, says a student 
graduating from high school makes, on average, $37,000 a year, 
and on college I think it was $61,000. They work 40 years. If 
you look at that difference of $24,000 or so a year for 40 
years, that is almost a million dollars over 40 years that 
student has not earned, has not made, because of not going to 
college because of lack of funding.
    Mr. Perry. May I add, could I respond just quickly to that? 
Let's also remember that Black graduates, collegiate graduates, 
have a much lower wealth profile than their White counterparts, 
earn less money. And so our economic mobility is throttled by 
discrimination in other areas.
    And so we can't ignore that part. Black people are going to 
school and taking on more debt, and it is not, the education is 
not playing out the same way it does for their White 
counterparts.
    Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Just let me say in closing that in New York State I was 
involved in a lawsuit that established disparities in funding, 
regional disparities in funding in the New York City public 
school system. It was a campaign for fiscal equity. And moneys 
eventually were allocated by the courts, both for capital 
improvement of the schools as well as operational.
    I think that there are a lot of similarities in the years 
of disparities in funding given to HBCUs and other minority-
serving institutions.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    And now, Mrs. McClain of Michigan, welcome.
    Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    And thank you to all of our guests today. I really 
appreciate the efforts in what you are doing.
    I think we all share the same thought process in terms of, 
if we can get our younger generation, our youth, educated and 
provide them an opportunity to get a good, well-paying job, 
that just solves so many problems down the road, and it really 
begins to give them a sense of pride. And I think you see that 
passed down from generation to generation.
    So I applaud all of our efforts.
    I have a few clarifying questions. This is my first time on 
this Committee, so I want to make sure I understand it.
    We had talked earlier about endowments. And if we are 
producing at such a higher rate from these colleges, why do you 
think our endowments are suffering?
    Mr. Perry. Well, endowments are created not only from 
individual contributions, but through other Federal and State 
investments. And so overall, in a nutshell, HBCUs take on, 
enroll many lower-wealth individuals. So even the graduates 
that go on are in a job market that throttles their wealth even 
further.
    And so, from an individual perspective, they receive less 
contribution. From a Federal contribution----
    Mrs. McClain. OK. I think I understand. In the interest of 
time, I don't mean to be rude or cut you off.
    So, for example, I graduated from Northwood University. 
Northwood University, which is a private college which has a 
really good endowment fund, they would get Federal moneys?
    Mr. Perry. No, no. OK. Those are just one of the ways. But 
also remember there are lots of--there is also--yes, there is 
lots of--so endowments that--I hate to put a damper on this--
were created from cotton money, alcohol money.
    Look, colleges and universities participated----
    Mrs. McClain. Or alumni. I understand. That helps me. I 
appreciate it, sir. I was just--I was trying--I am trying to 
connect the dots, because I do think the most important thing 
that we can give our youth today is a job.
    I mean when you think about it, a job provides pride, sense 
of purpose. It breaks the cycle. It allows people to pay taxes. 
It allows people to give back. I mean, I am in agreement.
    I am asking again, perhaps our ladder maybe do you think is 
maybe on the wrong wall for a moment? And I go back to what Mr. 
Bowman said, is it seems like the workforce, the consumer of 
the product, the student, is wanting more skilled trades. And I 
can only speak for my State, really, and my district. I mean, I 
was out this morning and they are begging for people in the 
skilled trades industry.
    Is there some sort of marriage that we can do between the 
college and the skilled trades? And I think you have talked a 
little bit about that, but I think that is--I think that really 
is critical.
    And then, because we talk about having free college tuition 
and whatnot, and let's remember nothing is free. The professors 
surely aren't teaching for free. And at the end of the day, 
somebody has to pay those professors, and it is typically the 
taxpayers' money that Congress is appropriating.
    So I am just wondering are we truly providing--and this 
isn't a knock on anyone, I don't want it to come across that 
way--are we truly providing a product that the community wants? 
And anyone can answer that.
    Because people in my community don't need another LS&A 
degree. They need somebody who knows how to weld. I am just 
wondering.
    Ms. Baskerville. I would like to respond to that.
    The HBCU community has 17 2-year institutions, community, 
and technical colleges, that, as with their 4-year 
counterparts, they are punching above their weight. They are 
graduating disproportionate percentages of persons who are 
trained in health and health professions and health 
paraprofessionals. They are in technology. They are in all the 
growth and high-needs areas.
    Mrs. McClain. So you are producing welders. You are 
producing----
    Ms. Baskerville. We are producing welders.
    Mrs. McClain. OK.
    Ms. Baskerville. And in many cases, in J.F. Drake, for 
example, their classes are ranking above their counterparts in 
passing the licensure exams that are required once they get 
there.
    Mrs. McClain. So journeymen, apprenticeships, all that?
    Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Those types of things, yes.
    Mrs. McClain. OK. It is exciting. It is very exciting.
    Ms. Baskerville. I think I agree with your general concept 
that we have got to have jobs, but I think that you have got to 
have people prepared for the workforce, people with strong 
character, and people committed to service.
    So I think that is one of the things that HBCUs provide 
that makes them unique. Yes, we absolutely are preparing folks 
for the workforce by building character and encouraging for 
their service.
    Mrs. McClain. Well, that comes with discipline, showing up 
on time. And I think you would also agree with me that it is 
critical for us to teach our children how to think, not what to 
think, so they can come up with these critical thinking skills 
on their own.
    So, with that, I yield back my time. Thank you very much.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
    Ms. Bonamici of Oregon.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Before I ask my questions, I want to speak to the Gainful 
Employment Rule, which was brought up in the witnesses' 
testimony and answers.
    Students attend career education programs with the 
expectation that they are going to receive a quality experience 
that is going to lead them to gainful employment. But many of 
those career education programs, particularly those at for-
profit institutions, are not preparing students for gainful 
employment in their chosen field, leaving them with debt they 
can't pay.
    So to protect students and taxpayers, the Obama 
administration implemented the Gainful Employment Rule, and 
that was so students would not take on debt for higher 
education that did not lead to good jobs.
    And that rule worked. Data showed that institutions were 
starting to reduce tuition cost and phaseout those low-quality 
programs because of the rule. Yet, Secretary DeVos completely 
rescinded the rule, to the detriment of students and taxpayers.
    And contrary to the testimony given today, HBCUs were not 
negatively impacted by the Gainful Employment Rule because of 
their student demographics. According to data from the 
Department of Education, the percentage of students of color at 
an institution does not have a meaningful impact on the 
institution's debt-to-earnings ratio.
    So what the Gainful Employment regulation did was protect 
students, particularly low-income students, and students of 
color, from overpriced, low-quality programs, particularly at 
the predatory for-profit colleges.
    So I am glad the Biden administration has indicated they 
are going to re-regulate and bring back the Gainful Employment 
Rule, and I look forward to working with the Committee and the 
administration on this important issue.
    Now, turning to the questions. We know, it has been 
established, HBCUs are tremendously important to our Nation's 
higher education system.
    And yet, as Chair Wilson described and several of our 
witnesses confirmed, they have been historically underfunded, 
with endowments lagging behind non-HBCUs by as much as 70 
percent. HBCUs are less likely to be able to buffer lower 
Federal and State funding levels.
    And I want to note that the most important role of the 
Federal Government in education and, therefore, our role as 
policymakers, is to advance equity. We know HBCUs have played a 
critical role in providing higher education opportunities for 
centuries, long before President Johnson emphasized equity of 
opportunity with the important Higher Education Act in the mid 
091960's.
    So today our institutions of higher education, especially 
HBCUs, need resources so they can continue to serve as these 
engines of economic mobility for the students they serve. But, 
unfortunately, not all of my colleagues agree with me, and some 
have stated that they oppose additional Federal investments in 
HBCUs.
    So, Dr. Perry, what would you say to someone who, despite 
the facts we have laid out today and established in the 
testimony, continues to argue that we do not need to increase 
investments in HBCUs and other under-resourced institutions?
    Mr. Perry. Well, I just find it hypocritical that many of 
the people who say they are into expanding the economy are 
against investing in HBCUs in the areas particularly they are 
strong at. We are making the argument that for the workforce as 
a whole we need STEM graduates. We should be investing in those 
institutions that produce STEM graduates at a higher level.
    The other side to this is that there are many institutions 
that do not graduate Black students well. And I can easily make 
the argument the reason why you see an increase in HBCUs is 
because the PWIs of the world are not doing their job.
    Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate it. And, Dr. Perry, I don't mean 
to cut you off, but I really want to try to get in another 
question to President Glover.
    We know that Tennessee State University is doing a lot to 
help students who arrive on campus in need of additional 
support, perhaps students who have attended under-resourced K-
12 schools.
    So what are you doing to make sure the faculty and staff 
are prepared to meet the needs of those students who have been 
through underfunded schools in the K-12 system.
    And also if you could add, just in the remaining time, how 
would the enactment of the Build Back Better legislation, with 
policies like the extension of the Child Tax Credit, affordable 
childcare, and universal preschool for 3-and 4-year-olds, 
affect children who may be future HBCU students?
    Ms. Glover. And I can just tell you, say that we are doing 
quite a bit at Tennessee State for students who come to us who 
are not prepared, if that is your question, who are not 
prepared.
    [Inaudible] education assuming that the students are going 
to get the right knowledge, to provide the competent 
communication skills and focus on educating them throughout 
their college career.
    And so I kind of forgot. It was a pretty long question. I 
kind of forgot.
    Ms. Bonamici. I am sorry.
    The Build Back Better legislation includes policies like 
affordable childcare, extension of the Child Tax Credit, and 
universal preschool. How would that affect future HBCU 
students?
    Ms. Glover. Oh, it affects them in a positive way. The 
Build Back Better Act overall has shown that they have a real 
appreciation of what HBCUs provide and the nature of the 
students who attend HBCUs. And so I think each one of those 
elements, each has a positive thrust to it that will assist 
HBCUs as they grow and develop.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you so much, Dr. Glover.
    And I apologize for going over, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. This is a wild hearing. OK.
    And next, Dr. Foxx.
    Ms. Foxx. Yes, ma'am. Yes, Madam Chair. I am prepared to 
ask my question. Thank you very much.
    Mrs. Sailor, according to data from the Office of Federal 
Student Aid, the cohort default rate for HBCUs was 13.4 percent 
in Fiscal Year 2018, the highest among all institutional 
sectors and nearly twice that of the national average for 
schools. I will note these default rates are higher than 
proprietary institutions, which Democrats continually demonize 
as failing their students.
    I know that students tend to rely on Federal aid at a 
higher rate, but that should not impact their ability to pay 
back these loans after school, especially since today we have 
heard so much about the high percentages of professional people 
who graduate from HBCUs.
    So could you comment on that, please?
    Mrs. Sailor. Yes, Dr. Foxx.
    As we look at the demographics of the majority of students 
attending HBCUs, we see that there are a lot of people who are 
first-time college attendees, if you will, to graduation.
    And I think this issue goes back to what happens at the 
moment that one is accepting a loan. And I think it is 
critically important that we look at ways to make sure that the 
financial literacy upscale component is happening at the same 
time.
    Dr. Glover spoke to that in terms of what she is doing at 
her university in order to help students make those wise 
decisions.
    I think we have got young people who are trying to make 
decisions for themselves. They don't always have the same 
consultation from family Members who have gone through a 
similar experience, and so therefore they are trailblazing.
    Ms. Foxx. Could I followup on that a little bit?
    So should Congress do more to hold schools with poor 
student outcomes accountable, both HBCUs and non-HBCUs alike?
    Mrs. Sailor. I think that Congress should be working with 
and looking at policies that encourage both HBCUs and non-HBCUs 
to provide that financial literacy and counseling as young 
people are trying to make decisions that are beyond where they 
can see at the moment, to give additional support.
    Ms. Foxx. Mrs. Sailor, institutions of higher education 
received a significant addition of Federal support in response 
to the challenges posed by COVID-19. HBCUs and MSIs received 
nearly $6 billion in targeted and additional direct support.
    This influx of taxpayer dollars was both unprecedented in 
its size and the speed at which it was delivered, which makes 
oversight of such funds more critical than ever to ensure 
taxpayer dollars are being used as intended, to help students.
    Do you have any indication, since this Committee has had no 
oversight on how this money is being spent, do you have any 
indication as to how HBCUs have used their COVID relief funds, 
and have some used them more effectively than others?
    And I only have a little over a minute, so I need a quick 
answer.
    Mrs. Sailor. OK. Yes. I mean, what we see across the board 
is HBCUs are trying to meet needs of the students who are in 
dire need during this moment that we are having as a Nation. We 
see that Dillard and Howard and North Carolina A&T, for 
example, are a few institutions that have created safe funds 
and grants from private donors as well to help pay tuition and 
fees.
    We also see other universities, like Wilberforce 
University, bolstering private scholarship.
    And so those additional funds have I think helped give 
enough cushion in order to look at diversifying other avenues 
to bring money into those institutions.
    Ms. Foxx. Well, over the past year we have also seen 
several reports of HBCUs clearing the account balances of their 
students using COVID relief funding.
    Do you think this is a smart way to teach students fiscal 
responsibility? And what was the justification for this use? 
How was the determination made which borrowers to cover?
    We need to know more about whether this is an effective use 
of taxpayer dollars or is this simply transfer of wealth.
    Mrs. Sailor. Yes. Dr. Foxx, I think we as a Nation 
experienced a global pandemic, something no one was expecting, 
and I don't think we got it all right.
    And I think, as the law allowed for flexibility for HBCUs 
to look at what kind of processes they were going to use, I 
think we have got to be able to go back and insist on the 
transparency of how that was interacting and interfacing so 
that as we move forward we can make sure that the models that 
worked are going to be continued to be used and those things 
that didn't work so well will be corrected.
    Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much. I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
    And now the Chair of the full Committee, the distinguished 
Dr. Scott of Virginia.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Madam Chair, and certainly I want to 
thank you for convening this hearing, and we want to thank our 
witnesses for being with us today.
    My family is very closely associated with HBCUs. My father, 
mother, two brothers, and a sister all attended HBCUs, 
including Howard, Hampton, Fisk, Virginia State, Morehouse, and 
Spelman. My great grandfather, Nicholas Roberts, after whom I 
am named, was the interim president at Shaw. So I am very 
closely associated with HBCUs.
    Let me first make a quick comment about the comment made by 
the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Banks, about what had sounded 
like short-term Pell and that we hadn't taken up his bill. 
Probably the reason we haven't taken it up is because every 
higher education bill and every workforce development bill that 
we have considered in the last 2 or 3 years has included a 
provision for short-term Pell so that his views are well taken, 
and we will look forward to working with him on that.
    Dr. Glover, thank you for your testimony. As several have 
indicated, in the last couple of years, there has been 
unprecedented support for HBCUs. Can you compare the funding 
that Tennessee State got in the last year and a half, compared 
to what it usually gets historically, and what you are able to 
do with the money?
    Ms. Glover. Sure. Tennessee State received funds in three 
categories last year. The first Higher Education Emergency 
Relief Funds, the CARES Act, half went to students and half 
went to the university. But we gave most--quite a significant 
number amount to [inaudible] that was $23 million.
    Then we had the second round of the Relief Supplemental 
Act, and we got $33 million. And then the American Rescue Plan, 
$58 million. So a total of $115 million came in on an emergency 
basis.
    So that was used to provide directly to students and 
personal assistance to students. I think that number was $11 
million. And then there was tuition assistance to students 
impacted by the pandemic, direct tuition student assistance. 
That was $20 million, almost $21 million. The scholarships were 
$22 million. The emergency housing was over $2 million.
    The technical enhancements to online, hybrid learning 
because students had to leave and go home all of a sudden with 
no technology devices, limited to no connectivity to broadband, 
so we had to provide technology for the students.
    They had cell phones, but, you know, cell phones only go so 
far. You can go into Zoom and online learning in that way, but 
you can't do the papers and modeling. Cell phones won't go far 
enough. We provided technology devices. So, so much for the 
equipment, we had to get the PPE, so--and then for this fall, 
this semester and next semester, there is another $40 million 
we are still spending encumbered.
    So we have actually spent all the money. It has either been 
spent in total or has all been encumbered. And we are most 
appreciative of our funds. I have to say, this was emergency 
funding, and that is what made it so appreciative, because we 
were in a State of emergency.
    Mr. Scott. It sounds like you almost got as much from COVID 
relief bills as you got from the State of Tennessee in the last 
year and a half.
    Ms. Glover. Indeed.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you.
    Ms. Glover. It was kind of broad.
    Mr. Scott. I am going to ask you a question to respond on 
the record, and that is, what can we do to actually increase 
endowments? I don't have much time to get a coherent answer to 
that question, but if you can provide that for the record, I 
would appreciate it because that is one thing that has been 
commented on and we ought to be able to do something about 
that.
    And, finally, Ms. Baskerville, do you have any comments 
about the present status of HBCU litigation in terms of whether 
or not these consent decrees are still in effect and whether 
States are in compliance.
    Ms. Baskerville. The consent decrees are still in effect, 
and they are still in compliance. With the Maryland case, we 
now have litigation, and the results of that, that suggest what 
the States must prove. So what we found in Maryland case was 
that, yes, there are still vestiges of discrimination, among 
the many are infrastructure and also duplication.
    But what it also did was put out a roadmap so that the 
other 18 public institutions that are in States where they 
maintain a dual and unequal higher education system will know 
what to do. We can now take this and use it with the other 
decrees.
    But I do believe that we need to work to make sure that the 
Office of Civil Rights has a process in place that doesn't 
force you to be in litigation or pre-litigation for 40 years. 
We need at some point to intervene. Once the Office of Civil 
Rights find that they are in violation and they put in place 
the decree, if they do not comply, they need to withhold funds. 
That appears to be the only thing they will respond to.
    Mr. Scott. Well, thank you, and I would, just for the 
record, let you know that the Chair, Representative Wilson, and 
I, just recently wrote the Office of Civil Rights and the 
Department of Education, asking them about the status of this 
litigation and what they are doing about States that are not in 
compliance. So we are following up on that, and we appreciate 
your testimony.
    Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    And now Ms. Letlow of Louisiana. Welcome, Ms. Letlow.
    Ms. Letlow. Thank you and thank you to all the witnesses 
for taking the time to testify before the Committee today. 
Louisiana is home to several distinguished historically Black 
colleges and universities. HBCUs in my State are nationally 
recognized for their academic programs and contributions to 
research.
    I am especially proud that one of these outstanding HBCUs 
is located in Louisiana's Fifth congressional District. 
Grambling State University has been educating students in north 
Louisiana since 1901. The university offers many strong degree 
programs, but the school is especially known for its nursing, 
computer science, and teacher education majors. And I can't 
forget to mention their world-famed Tiger Marching Band.
    This summer, I had the opportunity to visit Grambling's 
campus to learn about their academic programs and priorities. I 
was especially impressed with their commitment to recruiting 
Black male students to pursue careers as educators at 
elementary and secondary schools.
    Nationally, less than 2 percent of the public 
schoolteachers are Black males while over 50 percent of the 
public-school students are students of color. Grambling is 
seeking to address this discrepancy by launching a targeted 
leadership program to increase the number of Black male 
students earning a teaching degree.
    It is encouraging to see higher education institutions find 
innovative ways to address workforce issues, and I am proud to 
support Grambling's efforts.
    I would like to now direct my question to Ms. Sailor. 
Throughout your testimony, you highlight the importance for 
HBCUs to leverage public-private partnerships. I believe there 
is immense value in establishing these partnerships, what are 
some examples of successful collaboration between HBCUs and the 
private sector? Are there barriers preventing HBCUs from 
leveraging these partnerships, and if so, what can be done to 
remove them?
    Ms. Sailor. Yes. Thank you for your question. I actually 
worked on, many years ago, a proposal, and we almost got it 
done with NASCAR and HBCUs. And I will tell you what was 
successful in that, is, in terms of being able to connect the 
resources, the innovation in terms of giving the students the 
hands-on experience of being able to work in mechanics, if you 
will, and looking at the engineering degree.
    And what is essential, I think, as you look at success in 
terms of the connectivity of both the private and the public 
sector coming together to try to execute toward an incredible 
outcome is the ability, as those projects are coming into 
fruition, that they don't get cutoff when an administration 
changes, if you will.
    And so I think where we are able to keep a certain amount 
of continuity where you have got the three parts coming 
together, it is going to be very helpful in being able to not 
only measure the long-term outcomes of what can happen, but 
also being able to get to a place of scaling those incredible 
models out in terms of its capacity to really return on the 
investment that is made from the partnerships.
    Ms. Letlow. That is a wonderful example, Ms. Sailor. Thank 
you so much, and I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, Ms. Letlow. And now 
let me just let you know that what you said was so amazing, how 
you started your testimony. That is why the congressional Black 
Caucus has established the Commission on the Social Status of 
Black Men and Boys, and we agree with you about the teaching 
shortage, the college attendance, everything that impacts Black 
boys. Thank you so much for your testimony.
    And now Ms. Adams of North Carolina.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your work 
on HBCUs. Thank you for holding today's long-awaited, much-
needed hearing on HBCUs.
    And, to each of our esteemed witnesses, thank you for being 
here today.
    I do ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the 
following items: A 2018 Government Accountability Office report 
that speaks to the improved participation in the education of 
HBCUs' Capital Financing Program; a 2021 report published by 
The Century Foundation entitled ``Achieving Financial Equity 
and Justice for HBCUs''; a political news article urging 
Congress to examine the importance of investing in the research 
and development infrastructure of HBCUs; and a letter from 37 
Member institutions of the UNCF, urging Congress to include 
reconciliation language affecting HBCUs; and, finally, a 
report, ``Blacks and STEM: Understanding the Issues for 
NAFEO.''
    Ms. Adams. It is no secret, Madam Chair, that I am 
passionate about HBCUs. I am an advocate. I am a proud two-time 
graduate of North Carolina A&T University, 40-year retired 
professor and administrator at Bennett College, both HBCUs.
    And so I remember my personal experiences when I came to 
Congress to vow to make things right for our HBCU experience. A 
significant piece of legislation I introduced in this Congress, 
H.R. 3294, the IGNITE HBCU Excellence Act, which really has 
support from conservative Senators to progressive Democrats, 
and it will revitalize and rejuvenate our HBCU campuses.
    My first question, HBCUs and other institutions of higher 
education are classified as minority-serving institutions or 
MSIs. So HBCUs and other institutions of higher education are 
often sorted into the same category for participation in 
programs and initiatives funded by the Federal Government.
    Dr. Baskerville, will you talk briefly about the 
similarities and differences between HBCUs and these other 
types of institutions, both in terms of historic funding and 
current financial status?
    Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Thank you so very much, Madam 
Chairwoman of the Bipartisan Caucus on HBCUs. There are 
similarities in that the HBCUs and TCUs and the MSIs, those are 
the demographic institutions, the Hispanic-serving, the 
Tribal--the AANAPISIs and the PBIs. They are similar in the 
types of students that they are graduating.
    They are different--tremendously different--in their 
founding and their mission. HBCUs and Tribal colleges and 
universities are mission-based, non-racial, non-ethnic 
institutions. They have no race criterion, no ethnic criterion, 
but they have a mission of educating, in the case of HBCUs, the 
progeny of the American slave system and others.
    And HBCUs have done that since their founding. They have 
been open to all persons who want to excel. And a question was 
asked about diversity of thought. HBCUs believe in diversity of 
thought, race, ethnicity, creed, and the entire gamut of 
diversity. Our----
    Ms. Adams. Let me move on to the others, Dr. Baskerville. I 
only have a couple of minutes----
    Ms. Baskerville. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Adams ----so can you speak to why HBCU funding should 
be decoupled from MSI funding?
    Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Must be decoupled because HBCUs are 
not like MSIs, and they have a history, a special relationship 
that the United States continues to acknowledge, based on 
slavery, the 200 years of slavery, 200 years since slavery, and 
the lingering vestiges of discrimination. No other cohort of 
American colleges has that.
    For that reason, we cannot be clumped with other 
institutions who are doing a good job, and NAFEO has fought to 
get them recognized as geographic, minority-serving 
institutions, but because of the uniqueness, the gross 
underfunding, the vestiges that linger today, they must be 
decoupled, and special programs established for HBCUs because 
of that----
    Ms. Adams. Let me ask Dr. Glover, your testimony, you spoke 
about land-grant institutions not receiving proper matching 
funding for decades. So how has the lack of matching funds to 
land-grant institutions negatively impacted the resources 
available to students at these land-grant institutions?
    Ms. Glover. It has had a profound effect in that students 
have not been able to engage in the programming that other 
schools have, similar peer institutions or predominantly White 
institutions. They were not able to do the extension work they 
should have--they could have been doing.
    For example, in Nashville, there is never the extension 
work that is fully funded for TSU, as it is for other land 
grant in Tennessee, not even----
    Ms. Adams. Thanks very much.
    Madam Chair, I am out of time. I am going to yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Adams, whatever other questions you 
may have, submit them for the record, and we will have the 
witnesses respond to you in writing.
    Ms. Adams. Yes, ma'am, I will do that. Thank you, Madam 
Chair.
    Chairwoman Wilson ----to all Committee Members, in writing, 
to do so.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Wilson. And now Mrs. McBath from Georgia, 
welcome.
    Mrs. McBath. Well, thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman, for 
holding this really crucial discussion on the continued 
essential role that historically Black colleges and 
universities play in higher education, as well as the continued 
need to strengthen and support HBCUs. And I also thank our 
witnesses for sharing their time with us today.
    As an alumna of an HBCU, Virginia State University--go 
Trojans, have to get that in there--I know intimately the role 
that HBCUs play, not just in individual students' lives but 
also in America's higher education system.
    HBCUs served for many decades as one of the only means for 
African Americans and other minorities to gain a college 
education. While many educational doors have opened since, 
HBCUs still serve a very vital role in educating, nurturing, 
and advancing America's students.
    Without an HBCU education, this woman that you see before 
you today may never have gone on to become a United States 
Congresswoman, representing the great people of Georgia's Sixth 
congressional District, nor perhaps would my colleagues be here 
with me today, Representatives Frederica Wilson and also 
Representative Alma Adams, both HBCU representatives and 
graduates.
    Further, the Nation may never have had U.S. Supreme Court 
Justice Thurgood Marshall, a two-time graduate of HBCUs, nor 
the first female Vice President Kamala Harris, also an HBCU 
alum.
    In my State of Georgia, we are home to nine HBCUs, the 
third most in the country, tied with Texas. The United Negro 
College Fund found that, in 2018, Georgia's HBCUs get--they 
generated actually $1.3 billion in total economic impact to the 
State and generated over 12,000 jobs.
    HBCUs have provided so much to this country and its 
accomplishments. And that is why it is imperative we, in turn, 
provide continued funding to HBCUs. By doing so, we invest not 
just in these institutions but in the future of this country.
    Now my question is for Dr. Baskerville. Research shows that 
HBCUs have higher success rates when compared to other 4-year 
institutions with similar enrollments of Pell students.
    After controlling for Pell enrollments, the average 
institutional graduation rate for Black students at HBCUs was 
38 percent compared with 32 percent for non-HBCUs. What is it 
about the academic experience that is provided by HBCUs that 
helps students attending these institutions to have better 
outcomes than their peers that are attending non-HBCUs?
    Ms. Baskerville. Thank you so very much for that question, 
Congresswoman McBath. HBCUs are, most importantly, they are 
offering the diverse courses and curricula that will prepare 
the students for tomorrow's labor force, tomorrow's service 
corps, and the like.
    But they are doing it, many of them, in smaller, nurturing 
environments. They are doing it in environments where 
fortunately more of the faculty than you find at historically 
White institutions are persons of color, persons who perhaps 
came from their background, their culture. They share a common 
ethos, but they are bringing to the table the academic piece, 
but they also have the civic and the service and the spiritual 
aspect--``spiritual'' meaning encouraging students to celebrate 
something above and beyond themselves.
    Additionally, they are richly diverse. HBCUs have about 70 
percent students who are African ancestors and about 30 who are 
not. Great diversity ratings, and they are improving as others 
are. The faculty are even more diverse.
    And so those who believe in an excellent environment, 
smaller environment, costs are contained, and diversity, look 
to HBCUs where we welcome persons of all backgrounds, all 
interests, and certainly those who believe in different 
philosophies as was discussed previously.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you so much, and I yield the rest of 
what little time I have to my colleague, Alma Adams.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you. I would like to thank the gentlelady 
for yielding.
    Dr. Glover, you talked about the neglect campuses have. 
What financial resources are required, in your opinion, to 
rectify this neglect?
    Ms. Glover. Well, my campus, we are seeking to get the $544 
million that has taken [inaudible] out of. And so that we are 
in arrears in Tennessee. When we look across the board on 
HBCUs, the neglect in deferred maintenance, the infrastructure, 
the academic programs, it is going to average a significant 
number across the campuses.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you. I yield back. I am out of time, Madam 
Chairman.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I will ask Ms. Glover 
if she would respond in writing to your question, so that all 
of the Committee Members will have that response.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Right now I have to make an announcement 
that is beyond our control. We tried to make this work, but Dr. 
Glover has a meeting at the White House with the Vice President 
of the United States and the National Panhellenic Council. So 
we are going to excuse her now as she serves in both 
capacities. Dr. Glover, you----
    Ms. Glover. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Wilson. I have a text from the White House. So 
we will proceed with the next. Any questions, Mrs. Hayes of 
Connecticut? Mrs. Hayes of Connecticut?
    Ms. Stevens of Michigan?
    Ms. Stevens. Madam Chair, Ms. Stevens is here.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Oh, OK. Good to see you.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you so much for letting me waive on to 
today's incredible hearing. The materials and the testimony 
were just instrumental, and I want to thank you, Madam 
Chairwoman, and just all Members of the Subcommittee.
    As we have discussed, for a century and a half, our HBCUs 
have just been a critical source of producing workforce 
diversity, and I am so grateful that we are here today 
addressing their systematic, under-utilization and 
underfunding, especially as it pertains to R&D and innovation 
and other critical economic development needs.
    I am also a proud cosponsor of the legislation from our 
esteemed Chair of another incredible Committee here on Ed.
    and Labor, her legislation to make historic investments in 
HBCUs, and I would like to take my time and yield it to 
Congresswoman Alma Adams from the great State of North 
Carolina.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you very much. I thank the gentlelady for 
yielding.
    I do want to talk a little bit about the research 1 
institutions, and so Dr. Baskerville, of the 131 schools that 
are classified as research 1 institutions by the Carnegie 
Classification of Institutes of Higher Ed., none of those are 
HBCUs.
    There are 11 HBCUs, including my alma mater, North Carolina 
A&T, which is the largest public university, which are among 
135 schools classified as R2 or research 2 universities, 
indicating that they do have high research activity.
    So what actions can the Federal Government take, Dr. 
Baskerville, both in the short-term and in the long-term to 
develop multiple R1 HBCUs?
    Ms. Baskerville. Thank you very much. In the short-term, we 
need very much to have investments in our infrastructures that 
will make sure that they have broadband and laboratories and 
all of the things that are essential to continuing to do the 
work that they are doing as very impressive research 2 
institutions.
    But they must be able to have the roads, the laboratories, 
and community access for laboratories as well. So you need that 
in the short term.
    You also need in I think a short term, about $200 million 
in an EPSCoR-like program that will bring to bear the resources 
of the scientific, the Department of Defense, National Science 
Foundation, and the other scientific departments and agencies, 
to put resources toward them in recognition of the fact that we 
are just 11 institutions, and they are principally responsible 
for graduating 42 percent of Blacks with advanced degrees in 
the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, with 
advanced degrees in education professions and 
disproportionately in health professions.
    We need them more than ever. We see what they are doing 
with woefully low investments, and EPSCoR is something, a 
program that the Department of Defense is presently involved in 
with other scientific entities for the express purpose of 
bringing online additional institutions.
    It would be tremendous to start with HBCUs because of their 
output, because of the disproportionate output.
    They also have a success rate higher than any others in 
moving persons from the lowest 20 percent of the quartile up to 
the top----
    Ms. Adams. Thank you.
    Ms. Baskerville ----so that is really an economic impact.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you so much. In the last few minutes, few 
seconds that we have, I just want to mention, because I have 
heard several of our speakers talk about not being able to find 
students of color, African American students, and I just want 
to put out there that the Bipartisan HBCU Caucus does have the 
partnership challenge. We now have almost 70 corporate 
individuals and entities involved where we help make those 
partnerships work with these institutions that we are in touch 
with each and every day.
    So I just want to certainly invite any other corporate 
folks that are listening, to become Members of the bipartisan 
HBCU partnership because it really does work, and it is making 
a difference for our schools and for the corporates.
    I thank the lady for yielding back.
    I yield, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Adams.
    And now Mr. Mfume of Maryland, thank you for being with us 
the entire meeting. We appreciate it, your support----
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Wilson ----we know your background. We know why 
you have been on the whole time.
    Mr. Mfume. Well, thank you. Thank you very much, and my 
thanks also to the ranking minority Member for holding this 
hearing. Obviously, I think it is very, very important, and so 
does everyone on the call. Otherwise, we would not be here.
    I do want to preface my remarks, Madam Chair, by calling 
your attention to a New York Times article, rather lengthy, and 
will soon probably be sort of the history of Fisk University 
because it details the celebration and the significance of the 
150th anniversary of the Fisk Jubilee Singers and what they and 
that university have meant to this country. It is a great, 
great article and I would recommend everybody's attention to 
it.
    I do want to also, if I might, in a sense of being 
redundant and transparent, say a couple things, but I would be 
remiss if I didn't also acknowledge Representative Adams for 
her stewardship of HBCU issues and education issues in general 
over so many years, and to also commend and thank the Chair, 
Bobby Scott, for his leadership in this area and the fact that 
there has not been a significant piece of legislation dealing 
with higher ed or pre-K through 12 that he has not been a part 
of over all these many years. So thank you both for that.
    To be transparent, I am a graduate of historically Black 
college Morgan State University here in Baltimore, was able to 
find a way to matriculate at a very tough time. I got a degree, 
and it prepared me later for my other high education work and 
my other attempts to matriculate.
    We were formed 4 years after Lincoln signed the 
Emancipation Proclamation and have been graduating students, as 
many of you are aware with your own institutions, for a long, 
long time.
    We are hopefully 2 years, maybe 3 years away from gaining 
R1 status through Carnegie. We are working very, very hard to 
do that. We have got a triple-A bond rating, we produce more 
Fulbright scholars than 90 percent of the other institutions 
that exist, and we are on our way in many respects to opening 
and creating a school of osteopathic medicine to complement the 
other aspects of the campus.
    I wanted to say all that to say that there was preparation 
there for me, as there is for so many young people today by 
going to a historically Black college and university oftentimes 
because they have not been able to go anywhere else.
    I not only have questions for the witnesses; I want to 
thank them for their testimony, and I want to just kind of 
react and respond to a couple of things that I heard, Madam 
Chair.
    I think that it is important for us to pay attention to 
this whole notion of research dollars, as was brought up before 
by Mr. Perry. So, whether it is NIH, National Science 
Foundation, NASA, or anyone else that is granting these 
research dollars, that competitive, quote, competition really 
has to be competitive and free of influence because oftentimes 
institutions get through the first round, and then the second 
round, which is under less scrutiny, is when the decision is 
oftentimes made, and it is made based on whether or not you are 
familiar with this school or that name or something else. And 
so we see this awkward shift that has gone on for years in 
terms of those research dollars.
    Patents is another area that I think--I hope the Committee 
focuses on because there is a great deal of funding there and a 
great deal of opportunity, but, more importantly, there is a 
great deal that can be contributed by Black colleges and 
universities.
    And on the matter of deferred maintenance, to the extent 
that we are able to pass the Build Back Better Act, I am hoping 
that--and perhaps it might be instructive to not just hope but 
to also signify or signal to college presidents all over the 
place that some of that money that is free to be used without a 
lot of discretion, ought to go straight toward deferred 
maintenance because we can't keep deferring deferred 
maintenance.
    Any college president like Ms. Manning and any others will 
tell you that it is simply something that is going to happen, 
and it is going to happen in the worst way if we don't take 
care of it.
    I know there was a comment earlier about why there are more 
Black women in these colleges and universities as opposed to 
Black men. I think 35 to 65 percent, something like that.
    Let me just remind you that, prior to 1976, for the 
previous 100 years, from 1876, it was just the reverse. In 
those days, it was chauvinism and sexism. In these days, it is 
peer pressure, it is prison, and a lot of other things that are 
intangible that oftentimes equate and give us those kinds of 
numbers.
    So, if we look at the Fordice decision in Mississippi 12 
years ago or the Maryland decision where we took the State to 
court for 16 years before getting a $577 million settlement, 
one thing is clear, and that is the fight for colleges and 
universities who happen to be HBCUs is in desperate need for 
more persons to line up as allies.
    And HBCUs--this will be my final point, Madam Chair--there 
is nothing inconsistent about that. People will say: Well, you 
don't need the historically Black college and university. You 
don't need them. Their days have outlived them, and we can do 
things better because you can go anywhere.
    Well, you really can't oftentimes go anywhere because of 
prejudices that exist that are below the surface that go to a 
number of intangibles that have been spoken about today. So, as 
long as there is a Harvard and a Yale that remain essentially 
WASP even though others may attend, that is not considered 
inconsistent.
    Even though there is a Brandeis and Yeshiva that remain 
essentially Jewish even though others may attend, that is not 
considered inconsistent.
    And even though there is a Catholic U and a Notre Dame that 
remain essentially Catholic even though others may attend, then 
logic tells me that we ought to have a Morgan and a Morehouse 
and a Hampton and a Howard and a Fisk, an NC AT&T, and other 
colleges and universities that are holding down an historic 
mission to make sure that no one is left behind.
    I don't have any time to yield back, Madam Chair, because I 
have exhausted it. Thank you for allowing me to get in a few 
things at the conclusion of this meeting. I appreciate it.
    Chairwoman Wilson. That was a keynote address. So I will 
keep that. It has been recorded, and you will hear it over and 
over and over as we move forward with the Commission on the 
Social Status of Black Men and Boys. And you are way out of 
time----
    Mr. Mfume. Yes.
    Chairwoman Wilson. I remind my colleagues that, pursuant to 
Committee practice, materials for submission for the hearing 
record must be submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days 
following the last day of the hearing, so, by close of business 
on October 20th, 2021, preferably in Microsoft Word format.
    The material submitted must address the subject of the 
hearing. Only a Member of the Subcommittee or an invited guest 
may submit materials for inclusion in the hearing record.
    Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer 
than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an 
interlink that you must provide to the Committee Clerk within 
the required timeframe. But please recognize that in the future 
that link may no longer work.
    Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for the 
record should be submitted to the Clerk electronically by 
emailing submissions to [email protected].
    Again, I want to thank these amazing, head-strong witnesses 
for their participation today. You were fantastic. We learned 
all that we possibly could digest about HBCUs, and I appreciate 
your participation.
    Members of the Subcommittee may have additional questions 
for you, and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those 
questions in writing. The hearing record will be held open for 
14 days in order to receive those responses.
    I remind my colleagues that, pursuant to Committee 
practice, witness questions for the hearing record must be 
submitted to the Majority Committee staff or Committee Clerk 
within 7 days. The questions submitted must address the subject 
matter of the hearing.
    I now recognize the distinguished ranking Member, Dr. 
Murphy, for a closing statement.
    Dr. Murphy?
    Mr. Murphy. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
    And let me just say, I want to say to my colleague, 
Representative Mfume, that I think those were fabulous 
comments.
    I agree with you, Chairwoman Wilson. I do agree that, when 
moneys are spent, I do believe that we ought to deal with 
deferred maintenance because so many of the colleges and 
institutions, not just HBCUs, really need that capital 
improvement. And I think it needs it a lot more than going into 
further programs. So I applaud that statement and the comment, 
and I want to thank all the witnesses today.
    It was a very, very good discussion, and I appreciate the 
Chairman for calling this. I am going to just--just a few other 
points just to finish up.
    While it is important that Congress continues to recognize 
how HBCUs have provided students, it is equally important to 
know that Congress will support their mission.
    Over the last 18 months, these institutions were provided 
billions--billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars, which 
served as a temporary lifeline to mitigate what was happening 
during the pandemic.
    Without a doubt, colleges, institutions, businesses, 
churches, you name it, benefited and are alive today because of 
moneys that Congress appropriated.
    But the fact of the matter is that higher education is 
changing. More and more students are demanding learning 
opportunities and credential offerings outside of the 
traditional 4-year model, and COVID-19 only really accelerated 
that trend.
    This will require higher education institutions to change 
as well, including HBCUs. Simply providing more and more money 
is not the answer, in my opinion, but calls for additional 
funding often ignore the interest of the taxpayers providing 
this.
    We have to be smart about the money that is being given to 
colleges, institutions, and accountability needs to be 
paramount. The taxpayer wallets are not unlimited, rather we 
should build off the initiatives of the previous administration 
in my opinion, encourage HBCUs to be innovative, just like any 
other institution, such as fostering public-private 
partnerships, that will provide a much more stable and reliable 
business model that gives educational opportunities to the 
students, more reliably than the Federal Government.
    Doing so will ensure their longevity so that they continue 
to serve their students for generations to come.
    Thank you again to the witnesses. I believe a lot of great 
comments occurred today, and thank you, Madam Chairman.
    I will yield back.
    Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
    I want to thank the witnesses again, and I now recognize 
myself for the purpose of making a closing statement.
    And, before I do that, just keep in mind that in 1886, the 
first HBCU was built, and some of the dormitories, some of the 
student union buildings remain the same. And we have to keep 
that in mind.
    When I went to university, Fisk, we had a shower on the 
hallway, a group shower, a group bathroom. Now our schools that 
we have to compete with, each dormitory room has a bathroom.
    We had no kitchen. Now dormitories on our competing 
institutions have kitchens, a group kitchen. I had a little 
tiny refrigerator and a little tiny hot plate. There were no--
nothing else. Just a little hot plate that sometimes would 
cause fires in the dormitories.
    So these HBCUs have not been able to keep up for these 
centuries that they have been built. So let's just keep that in 
mind. This is a way to bring all of this to the forefront and a 
way for all of us to know and understand that we are not being 
selfish. We are being pragmatic and realistic, and we, as 
Members of Congress, have to make a difference.
    I want to thank the witnesses, and I want you to know that 
today we reflected on the historical roots of historically 
Black colleges and universities and examined their continued 
contributions to our higher education system.
    For generations, HBCUs have provided our students, 
particularly Black and low-income students, with the supportive 
community and opportunities for economic mobility.
    Unfortunately, as our witnesses shared, and our 
congressional Members, HBCUs continue to experience persistent 
challenges, including systematic underfunding, chronic State 
disinvestment, and discriminatory funding policies have left 
HBCUs to achieve far more with far less.
    We must continue to invest in HBCUs and their students. To 
this end, Congress has delivered $6.5 billion to HBCUs over the 
last year and a half. And most recently through the Committee's 
portion of the Build Back Better Act, we approved over $30 
billion in funding that will help support these institutions.
    However, far more--keep in mind--far more is needed to 
correct decades, centuries of underfunding and historic 
inequities, and I will continue to work with my colleagues on 
this Committee, Education and Labor, the entire Committee, to 
champion solutions to these pressing challenges.
    In light of the unique mission and history of HBCUs, I 
firmly believe that investing in these institutions and their 
students is one of the most significant actions we can take to 
right the wrongs of the past.
    In our communities, there is a lot of discussion and debate 
about reparations taking place in the African-American 
community in a variety of settings. From the beauty shops to 
the barber shops, to the local and social circles, wherever I 
go, that is all people want to ask me about: Congresswoman 
Wilson, why do you want to study reparations? What are you 
going to learn? Study how?
    And I have always felt that the solution must be education. 
Me, that is Congresswoman Frederica Wilson. So soon I plan to 
file legislation that will help students who have been impacted 
by the legacy of slavery to cover the cost of attendance to any 
of our Nation's HBCUs.
    And I know every student doesn't want to attend an HBCU, 
but those that do, I consider this investment to be long 
overdue and would ensure that any descendant of enslaved 
Americans can access a debt-free higher education at a world-
class institution.
    I have been even toying with the idea of targeting the most 
endangered human being in America: Black boys.
    Please, I ask you to let me know of your thoughts.
    Mr. Chairman, once I file this bill, I hope we can bring 
this bill to a markup.
    Congress has a responsibility to address the enduring 
impact of slavery and decades of discriminatory policy, 
including how these factors have contributed to a sizable 
racial wealth gap.
    I look forward to working with my colleagues on this 
Committee and all of the relevant stakeholders to ensure that 
HBCUs not only survive but continue to thrive and grow for 
decades to come.
    We will need innovative and transformative solutions to 
truly provide these historic institutions with the support that 
they need and deserve.
    Thank you again to our witnesses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, this 
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Additional submission by Hon. Alma S. Adams, a 
Representative in Congress from the State of North Carolina 
follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    [Question submitted for the record and the response by Ms. 
Baskerville follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    [Questions submitted for the record and the responses by 
Mr. Perry follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    [Whereupon, at 2:47 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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