[House Hearing, 117 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] UTILIZATION OF SMALL CONTRACTORS IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING AND INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD JUNE 10, 2021 __________ [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Small Business Committee Document Number 117-017 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 44-750 WASHINGTON : 2021 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman JARED GOLDEN, Maine JASON CROW, Colorado SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas KWEISI MFUME, Maryland DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia TROY CARTER, Louisiana JUDY CHU, California DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania ANTONIO DELGADO, New York CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania ANDY KIM, New Jersey ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota PETE STAUBER, Minnesota DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York ANDREW GARBARINO, New York YOUNG KIM, California BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas BYRON DONALDS, Florida MARIA SALAZAR, Florida SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director Ellen Harrington, Majority Deputy Staff Director David Planning, Staff Director C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Page Hon. Kweisi Mfume................................................ 1 Hon. Maria Salazar............................................... 3 WITNESSES Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, National President, Women Construction Owners and Executives (WCOE), President, Sorella Group, Kansas City, KS....................................................... 7 Mr. Ralph Thomas III, Executive Director Emeritus, National Association of Minority Contractors (NAMC), Attorney, Law Offices of Ralph C. Thomas III PLLC, Washington, DC............ 9 Mr. Josh Bone, Executive Director, ELECTRI International, Washington, DC, testifying on behalf of the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA)................................. 10 Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, Co-Owner & President, JA&M Developing Corp., Pembroke Pines, FL, testifying on behalf of the Associated Builders and Contractors in her role as the Treasurer and Board Member of the Florida First Coast Chapter.. 12 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, National President, Women Construction Owners and Executives (WCOE), President, Sorella Group, Kansas City, KS............................................ 30 Mr. Ralph Thomas III, Executive Director Emeritus, National Association of Minority Contractors (NAMC), Attorney, Law Offices of Ralph C. Thomas III PLLC, Washington, DC........ 35 Mr. Josh Bone, Executive Director, ELECTRI International, Washington, DC, testifying on behalf of the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA).................. 42 Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, Co-Owner & President, JA&M Developing Corp., Pembroke Pines, FL, testifying on behalf of the Association Builders and Contractors in her role as the Treasurer and Board Member of the Florida First Coast Chapter.................................................... 53 Questions and Answers for the Record: Questions from Hon. Scott Fitzgerald to Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg and Answers from Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg...................... 61 Questions from Hon. Kweisi Mfume and Hon. Scott Fitzgerald to Ms. Annie Mecias-Murphy and Answers from Ms. Annie Mecias- Murphy..................................................... 63 Additional Material for the Record: Direct Steel LLC............................................. 73 UTILIZATION OF SMALL CONTRACTORS IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN ---------- THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 2021 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1:01 p.m., via Zoom, Hon. Kweisi Mfume [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. Present: Representatives Mfume, Newman, Andy Kim, Hagedorn, Stauber, Meuser, Salazar, and Fitzgerald. Chairman MFUME. Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to call to order this hearing today of the Subcommittee on Infrastructure and Contracting. And I would like to thank, first of all, all of the Members on both sides of the aisle who thought it important enough to be with us. There is a lot going on today, and I can appreciate that. Without objection, the Chair is authorized, as most of you know, to declare a recess at any time. And let me begin by saying that standing House committee rules and practices will continue to apply during the remote proceedings. All Members are reminded that they are expected to adhere to those standing rules, including decorum, when they are participating in any remote event such as this. With that said, the technology that we are using today requires us to make small changes and modifications from time to time to ensure that Members can fully participate in these proceedings. House regulations require Members to be visible through a video connection throughout the proceeding, so I would respectfully ask that everyone keep their cameras on. If you have to participate in another proceeding, please exit and then log back in later at a time convenient for you. In the event that a Member encounters technical issues that prevent them from being recognized for their questioning, I will then move to the next available Member of the same party, and I will recognize the other Member at the next appropriate time slot, provided, that is, that they have returned back to the proceeding. Should a Member's time be interrupted by technical issues, I will recognize that Member at the next appropriate spot for the remainder of their time once the issues have, in fact, been resolved. And in the event that a witness loses connectivity during testimony or questioning, I will preserve their time as staff seeks to address the technical issue. In that event, I may need to recess the proceedings to provide time for the witness then themselves to reconnect. And, finally, please remember to remain muted until you are recognized in order to minimize the amount of background noise that oftentimes accompanies these Zoom meetings. In accordance with rules, staff has been advised to mute participants only in the event if there is inadequate background noise--or overwhelming background noise, I should say. And should a Member wish to be recognized, they then just should unmute themselves and seek recognition at, of course, the appropriate time. At this time, the Chair would like to recognize himself for an opening statement. Infrastructure helps to form the foundation of our nation. Every day, Americans across the country rely on infrastructure to commute to work, to access clean water, and to communicate with one another. But despite infrastructure's fundamental importance to our country, it has become an afterthought in many respects over the past several decades. The U.S., as we all know, is the wealthiest country globally, but we are ranked 13th worldwide when it comes to the quality of our infrastructure. Fortunately, there is a wide consensus, which is bipartisan, that the current state of American infrastructure is, in fact, unsustainable. That is why in April, President Biden introduced the American Jobs Plan. The plan would revitalize the American infrastructure through major investments and federal funding over the next decade. The job plan would fix highways, repair bridges, improve airports, water ports, expand transit and rail into new communities. It would also eliminate lead water pipes and improve high-speed broadband, upgrade our schools and federal buildings, and so much, much more. By all accounts, this plan, we believe, truly represents a new vision for America, one through which by rebuilding with purpose we take care of the environment, further enhance equity, and create the basis for a stronger economic future. In this respect, an investment in infrastructure would be a significant benefit to small firms. Small businesses, as we all know, rely on infrastructure systems daily to increase their access to consumers and suppliers, to boost business operations, and create new demand for their goods and for their many services. Infrastructure investment would also be a boon for the millions of small businesses that directly and indirectly support the development, modernization, and the maintenance of many facets of infrastructure. In the construction industry alone, it is estimated that there are 3 million small businesses employing over 82 percent of all U.S. employees in that one sector. Put simply, an investment in infrastructure is indeed an investment in small business. Currently, there are an array of federal measures in place to ensure small businesses can participate in the procurement process and receive their fair share of contracting dollars. For instance, a governmentwide goal requires that 23 percent of all eligible contracting--or prime contracting dollars be spent with small businesses, while other goals exist for specific subsets of small contractors at the prime and at the subcontracting level. Other policies include the creation of contracting programs administered by the SBA that reserve contracts for underserved small businesses through set-aside and sole-source opportunities. And, finally, there are contracting programs implemented at the State and local level whenever federal assistance is involved, such as the case in the Department of Transportation's Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program. The DBE Program is designed to enable women and minority small firms to compete for federal contracts led by State and local agencies. It is the Department of Transportation's most important tool for remedying many of the effects of discrimination and leveling the playing field for transportation-related projects. All of these programs are the well-being of the small business community and help, obviously, guarantee that small businesses will have a seat at the table when it comes to contracting. And so in light of the American Jobs Plan and the thousands of contracting opportunities it will create, I hope that today's hearing gives us a chance to look closer at these programs which I believe are crucial to maximize small business participation and contracting at the local, state, and federal level. I am also looking forward to hearing from our expert witnesses on ways that Congress can leverage infrastructure investment to meet the needs of small businesses across our country. I would like now, if I might, to yield respectfully to the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, Ms. Salazar, the gentlewoman from the State of Florida, for her opening statement. Ms. Salazar, you are recognized. Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Wonderful to see you and the rest of my colleagues. And holding this hearing is extremely important because we are at a critical time of economic recovery from the pandemic and our small business should be driving this recovery. Infrastructure is the vehicle. In south Florida, we understand this dynamic, that our economy is linked to miles of coastline. One of America's largest ports is in District No. 27. We have major U.S. highways and an international airport in my district. Infrastructure is fundamental to our daily lives. We rely on it to go to work and to provide for our families. We spend valuable time going from place to place, from here to there. When it works, it improves our lives and it makes it a lot more enjoyable. But when highways are congested or public transit is delayed, it is not only frustrating, as I am sure you know, but it hurts our productivity and our economic growth. I think we can all agree that our aging infrastructure needs a major upgrade, and we must maintain our focus on improving the nation's core infrastructure system. I urge my colleagues across the aisle to work with us towards this goal. Where we disagree, I believe, is on the definition of infrastructure. Unfortunately, President Biden's plan is not about infrastructure at all, or very little. For example, the plan the President has proposed expands Medicaid coverage for home care. Medicare is fantastic for my constituents, but it has nothing to do with infrastructure. It puts billions and billions into social justice and violence prevention programs. That is fantastic, but it has nothing to do with infrastructure. It provides $12 billion to college infrastructure. I think education is key--the more you learn, the more you earn--but it has nothing to do with infrastructure. $180 billion for research and development. For what? I don't think research has anything to do with infrastructure. With only a fraction of those moneys related to infrastructure, it makes it really hard for us to understand and to agree with this bill the way it has been presented. These issues may be fine for Congress to consider at another time, but we need to be honest with the American people, with your constituents and mine. The administration is trying to fool us into believing that this wish list, which we agree with but has nothing to do with infrastructure, should be part of this bill. Now, to small business and contracting. If the goal of today's hearing is to discuss the utilization of small contractors in the President's package, we must understand the barriers that are imposed on small business owners. Small business operates best when the government does not stand in the way. Most things work best when government does not interfere. However, unfortunately, this package subjects the small business to an extended new set of rules, restrictions, restrictive labor rules, like the PRO Act, and other regulatory requirements that would end independent contracting, the franchise industry, and sharing the economy the way we know it now. In addition to these job-killing regulations, the President has proposed to pay for this multi-trillion dollar plan on the backs of the small businesses through tax increases. At least 1 million small businesses will get a tax increase through this proposal. The foundation of any infrastructure project is the construction business--and we have a lot down here in Miami-- and the majority of the builders and the contractors or people that build buildings are small businesses. In the construction industry, we have a labor shortage, as you know, and there are already difficulties hiring workers, not only in construction, but in welding and electricians, all types of manufacturing-related jobs. According to the Associated General Contractors of America, 81 percent of construction firms are having trouble finding people. There are more jobs than hands. And 72 percent anticipate labor shortages to be the big hurdle this coming year. I think, Mr. Chairman, that I look forward to hearing the testimonies of the witnesses today, and I would love to work across the aisle and make this a reality for all Americans. I yield back. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Ms. Salazar. The Ranking Member yields back. We appreciate your comments, and as I said before, obviously, appreciate your participation in this hearing. I would like to take a moment, if I might, to do a couple things. All Committee Members have opening statements, I assume, and if they are prepared, we would ask that they be submitted, without objection, for the formal record. Obviously, those statements take longer than 5 minutes, and so the revise and extend provision would apply here. I would also like to take a moment to explain how this remote hearing will proceed. Each witness will have 5 minutes to provide a statement, and each committee Member will receive 5 minutes for questions. Please ensure that your microphone is on, not like mine a moment ago, and that when you begin speaking, and after you finish, you return to the mute option. I would like to now introduce our witnesses, as they are prepared to give their testimony. And, again, on behalf of all Members of this Committee, we appreciate your willingness to be here today. Our first witness is Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, the president of Women Construction Owners and Executives. She is also president of Sorella Group, Incorporated, a specialty contractor offering full carpentry service and product supply and installation nationwide. Under Ms. Ohrenberg's leadership, Sorella Group has earned multiple awards, including the American Subcontractor 2012 Associated Member Award, and Kansas City American Subcontractor 2013 Subcontractor of the Year Award. Welcome to you, Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg. Thank you for being a witness, and thank you for being here. Our second witness is Mr. Ralph Thomas III, who is the executive director emeritus of the National Association of Minority Contractors. He is also a contracts litigator, who focuses his practice on legal issues affecting small businesses. And for more than a decade, Mr. Thomas has served as the associate administrator for the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in Washington. He received his JD from Harvard Law School and his bachelor's of arts degree with honors from the University of California at Berkeley. Mr. Thomas, we welcome you as well, and we will get to you in just a moment. Our third witness today is Mr. Josh Bone. Mr. Bone is the executive director of ELECTRI International, a foundation established by the National Electrical Contractors Association in 1989, dedicated to conducting research and educating electrical contracting industry workers and businesses. Mr. Bone also served as the director of industry and innovation for NECA. He holds a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering from Southern Poly Tech State University. Welcome, of course, Mr. Bone, to you as well. And now, I would like to yield back to our Ranking Member, Ms. Salazar of Florida, to introduce our final witness. Ms. Salazar. Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to welcome our final witness, who is also from south Florida, my district, Mrs. Annie Mecias-Murphy. Mrs. Mecias-Murphy is the co-owner and president of JA&M, a developing corporation. This is a family-owned operation, started by Mrs. Mecias' father over 45 years ago. Under her leadership, the company has grown into a very well-established and dependable company, earning the trust of many clients in the private and in the public sector. Her government clients extend over several departments and communities, like the Broward County Aviation Department, Miami-Dade County, the Florida Division of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, and the City of Miami. As a testament of her outstanding leadership, her company has won the Excellence in Construction Award given by the Associated Builders and Contractors of East Coast Chapter in 2017. Mrs. Mecias herself was honored as one of the top 50 women business leaders in Florida, and in 2014, she was named VIP Woman of the Year for her outstanding dedication to her profession. She has also been selected this year as one of the top 100 leaders in construction by the World Real Estate and Construction Forum. Giving back to her community and investing in the lives of young people in my district, having taught in high school and university for more than 20 years, she also serves on the board of Boys and Girls Club of Broward County. In addition to her many professional and personal achievements, Mrs. Mecias serves as a treasurer and board member of the South Florida Chapter of Associated Builders and Contractors, or ABC, whose on behalf she is testifying today. ABC is a national construction industry trade association representing over 20,000 members. Mrs. Mecias, thank you for being here with us, for your participation, and we look forward to hearing your testimony. I yield back now, Mr. Chairman. Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Ms. Salazar. And, Mrs. Mecias, welcome again to you, and thank you, like the others, for being here with us today. We will begin now our testimony from the witnesses, and the Chair will recognize Ms. Ohrenberg for 5 minutes. Please feel free to proceed. STATEMENTS OF MS. SHEILA OHRENBERG, NATIONAL PRESIDENT, WOMEN CONSTRUCTION OWNERS AND EXECUTIVES (WCOE), PRESIDENT, SORELLA GROUP, KANSAS CITY, KS; MR. RALPH THOMAS III, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR EMERITUS, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MINORITY CONTRACTORS (NAMC), ATTORNEY, LAW OFFICES OF RALPH C. THOMAS III PLLC, WASHINGTON, DC; MR. JOSH BONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ELECTRI INTERNATIONAL, WASHINGTON, DC, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION (NECA); AND DR. ANNIE MECIAS-MURPHY, CO-OWNER & PRESIDENT, JA&M DEVELOPING CORP., PEMBROKE PINES, FL, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS IN HER ROLE AS THE TREASURER AND BOARD MEMBER OF THE FLORIDA FIRST COAST CHAPTER STATEMENT OF SHEILA OHRENBERG Ms. OHRENBERG. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for holding this hearing today. As a small business owner and the president of Women Construction Owners and Executives, I appreciate your commitment to ensuring that all categories of small business owners will benefit from the major infrastructure package being debated. I am Sheila Ohrenberg, the president of Sorella Group. I founded the company in 2006 in my hometown of Kansas City, Kansas. It has grown considerably over the past 15 years to a full service, merit shop, carpentry company, performing private and public work in 23 States, including 5 significant new airports and additions. I am pleased to be representing WCOE, one of the only national associations representing women owners in the construction industry. Eleven women started WCOE in 1983 with a goal to help our members grow and prosper. We are dedicated to creating a level playing field for women-owned firms in the construction industry. Our membership is comprised of nonunion, union, small- and medium-sized companies that perform work and provide supplies in every aspect of construction. We are all eager to assist, maintain, modernize our crumbling infrastructure. This plan is essential to every business. The past 16 months have been challenging for everyone, especially small businesses. An infusion of federal infrastructure projects would generate contracting opportunities for small businesses that would create backlog, jobs, company growth, thus improving our communities. We anticipate direct federal contracts as well as grants and federally assisted programs that go to State and local governments. These programs make up many of the set-aside and DBE contracts that are vital to WCOE members. Small businesses are absolutely necessary to our economy, but women-owned small businesses, minority, and veteran-owned businesses continue to face barriers to success. This is true in federal and private marketplace. The federal contracting programs Congress has put in place to provide greater opportunities for small business are still necessary today. The cost of financing, bonding, and insuring projects is disproportionately high for small businesses, especially women business owners. WCOE members share stories of many of the same barriers faced by women that started our organization almost 40 years ago. The WOSB program 5 percent goal was implemented in 1996. This goal has only been met in 2015 and 2019. That is twice in 25 years, despite the fact that approximately 13 percent of construction companies are women-owned. The 2021 CSR report details the WOSB program usage has increased, but the WOSB set-asides and sole-source awards are still not meeting the goals. I think we can do better. We can create incentives to meet the goals and consequences for never meeting them. We can make up for the 23 years that we missed the goals by increasing the statutory goals above 5 percent for WOSBs. We can require more transparency through the SBA Procurement Scorecard by including how many WOSB programs are awarded, along with the value of the contracts by each agency, better coordination of agency resources for women business owners. And this can be done by including the bill being introduced next week by Representative Meng. This will ensure the Interagency Committee on Women's Business Enterprises meets regularly. A bold infrastructure package will be a great vehicle to increase contracting opportunities for disadvantaged businesses for whom the playing field is not yet level. The robust funding and the current programs alone are just not enough. We need to protect the stability of our small businesses. WCOE works alongside other construction industry coalitions for legislation contracting reform. We need to ensure payment protections for all construction projects by requiring payment and performance bonds, including private-public partnerships. We need to pass House bill 2949, the legislation would exclude the threshold for construction contracts that must be bonded under the Miller Act. Change order reform is necessary. Did you know that change orders do not typically get paid till the completion of the project? It is costly and can be detrimental to small businesses. These programs should not be viewed as the cost of doing business. They should not be viewed as a burden. And the program should be designed to educate, train, and advance women that were willing to take the leap into business ownership and the American Dream. WCOE hopes to continue to work with you to support future generations of women business owners. I appreciate your time. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Ms. Ohrenberg. We appreciate your time, and we will obviously be getting back to you with questions, comments, and observations in just a moment. The Chair would like to recognize Mr. Thomas now for 5 minutes. Mr. Thomas, feel free to proceed. STATEMENT OF RALPH THOMAS III Mr. THOMAS. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and other ladies and gentleman of the Committee. And, Mr. Chair, it is nice to see you again. It seems like decades ago I testified before other Committees and Subcommittees that you Chaired, so welcome back. Chairman MFUME. [Inaudible.] Mr. THOMAS. My name is--and my name is still Ralph C. Thomas III, and I am testifying today on behalf of the National Association of Minority Contractors. We are a group that was formed in 1969, and that makes us 52 years old and the oldest trade association representing minority contractors in the U.S. We have chapters and affiliates all over the country, and we represent the interests of, not only our members, but the 100,000 minority contractors across the United States right now. Now, the inclusion of minority contractors or DBEs, disadvantaged business enterprises, in the rebuilding of America's infrastructure is particularly important to ensuring that America is operating at the full, productive capacity of its citizenry. Needless to say, NAMC and minority contractors look very much forward to playing a significant role in the upgrading of this nation's infrastructure. Now, my full testimony is already in the record, so I am not going to repeat that, but I will summarize very quickly some of the topics that we are interested in and why we are interested in it. First of all, we really are interested in this new plan because of the benefits that it offers minority contractors. The federal infusion of funds--of new funds to build roads, bridges, highways, airways, et cetera, minority contractors are already involved in that. That is what we do, but we need more of it. We need to build our capital base so that we can do more. We have a vehicle right now through the U.S. Department of Transportation, the DBE Program, the Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program, which requires 10 percent of the transportation project funds to be expended with disadvantaged business enterprises. In order to make this new capital infusion work, we have got to do better in the program. Right now, 23 of the 50 States are not meeting the 10 percent floor, and we need--but we are very encouraged by the comments of Secretary Buttigieg. In a recent hearing that he testified in, he said he is going to make this a much more robust program, that he is going to make it a priority, and he is going to ensure that contractors, disadvantaged businesses, can do a wider range of contracts. Now, we are also interested in the workforce part of this infrastructure plan. The DOT had a workforce element in it in 2017, but for 2018, it doesn't. And that has hurt us. It is said that for every billion dollars that DOT spends on workforce development, that 13,000 jobs are created. So we are interested in that. We think that the impact of a successful program--a successful DBE program that will get us more capital, will be good for expanding, first of all, doing better--we can hire better people. We can make more investments on technology and equipment. We can hire better people, and that has so much of a social impact in terms of a happier group of people. You know, we can hire more people. So we look forward to working closely with, not only the DOT and the Secretary, but also with this Committee to hammer out any kinks that we see in implementing DBE inclusion in this new infrastructure plan. Thank you. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas. And we appreciate your testimony, and we recognize that there is a fuller set of that in the remarks that you submitted, to be revised and extended. But let me just say, it is good to see you also. It has been many, many years. And when you say it seems like decades, it is because it was decades. It was the late eighties and the early nineties that you would come before this Committee and others and give testimony, and I was happy to be one of the Chairpersons and happy always to receive it. Thank you, sir, very much for your remarks. I would like to now turn and yield to Mr. Bone, who has been patiently waiting. Mr. Bone, you are recognized for 5 minutes, and you may feel free to proceed. STATEMENT OF JOSH BONE Mr. BONE. Thank you, Chairman Mfume and Ranking Member Salazar, the Members of the Subcommittee, for inviting me to testify on behalf of ELECTRI International and the Electrical Contractors Association, NECA. We greatly appreciate the opportunity to submit a statement for the record to the Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure. My name is Josh Bone. I am the executive director of ELECTRI International. ELECTRI is a 501(c)(3) charitable organization established with support from NECA. Our mission is to help electrical contractors, large and small, meet today's demands and tomorrow's challenges by transforming our commission research into useful education, talent-initiative programs, as well as practical publications. The work for ELECTRI is simplified by NECA's network of 4,000 contractor members consisting of nearly 3,200 small businesses. NECA is the voice of a $170 billion electrical construction industry that brings power, light, and communication technologies to buildings and communities across the U.S. ELECTRI, along with NECA, recognizes the key role small businesses will play in any infrastructure package. It cannot be stated strongly enough, the infrastructure of this country is deteriorating. Thankfully, Congress and the current administration have shown a clear and urgent understanding of this need. To that end, we view the American Jobs Plan as a culmination of generations' worth of conversations on how to address our aging and lacking infrastructure. That said, this plan is the first step of many in moving the country forward. There is no question, after the volatility created by COVID-19 pandemic, small businesses must be prioritized by any infrastructure package. Across the construction industry, we have witnessed small contractors building their businesses around niche markets to be more competitive, whether it be in areas like the creation of microgrids, electrical vehicle charging stations, low-voltage technologies, or otherwise. Small contractors need to stay at the forefront of advancing technologies in order to remain competitive. Although this has yielded positive growth for small businesses, many still face what seems to be an insurmountable challenge: access to capital. The risks posed by lack of capital is compounded with negative factors, such as delayed payment practices and fluctuating material costs. First and foremost, delays in payment are rampant in the construction industry, especially to subcontractors. This has the capability of crippling small businesses that are unable to balance their books and anticipate exposure for upcoming projects. Small contractors need prompt payment support and enforcement when it comes to working on larger projects like those identified by the American Jobs Plan. In addition, the risk assumed by small business contractors cannot be understated, with many subcontractors recounting stories of offering their homes as collateral for various loans or bonding. The recent fluctuation in material costs has presented new challenges. The main concern for electrical contractors is the rising cost of copper, which has increased nearly 90 percent since this time last year. There is no denying that the broad federal investment offered by the American Jobs Plan will not stretch as far when construction materials cost exponentially more. To make matters worse, a small business contractor typically holds their estimated price to a contract owner for 90 days, while material suppliers hold that estimate to their contractors for 7 to 10 days; in some cases, less. Many of our industry electrical contractors never stopped working throughout the pandemic. Because of this, our workforce demands never slowed. Our industry must hire and train over 100,000 electricians to meet the workforce demands across the country. The gold standard for meeting this need was established over 70 years ago by NECA and the IBEW. The National Joint Apprenticeship Training Program, the NJATC, today invests over $100 million annually and receives no direct federal funding. The program's rigorous training methods require 8,000 hours of on-the-job training and 900 hours of classroom time, and this is what it takes to create a qualified and capable journeyperson. In my time at ELECTRI, I have had the pleasure to travel this country and meet the small business owners employing the men and women of the electrical construction industry who should, and hopefully will, be tasked with rebuilding this nation. In the face of constant risk, competition, and an overwhelming workforce need, they come to work every day, striving to succeed. Efforts like the American Jobs Plan and others proposed by Congress offer these businesses a promising future. On behalf of ELECTRI International and NECA, I want to thank you again for the opportunity to testify at this very important hearing. I applaud the Committee's unwavering efforts to support and advocate for small businesses across the country. Thank you. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, sir. I am going to ask staff to do not mute me unless I mute myself, because trying to find the unmute button can be problematic, obviously, from time to time. I am going to thank again and welcome Mrs. Mecias-Murphy for being with us. I know the Ranking Member properly introduced her, but I want to thank her. It is always hard being the caboose on a train, but it is your time, and we hope that you will proceed accordingly. You are recognized for the next 5 minutes. Go right ahead. STATEMENT OF ANNIE MECIAS-MURPHY Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Chairman Mfume, Ranking Member Salazar, and Members of the U.S. House Small Business Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure, thank you so much for holding this hearing on the utilization of small contractors in the infrastructure plan and inviting me to be with you today. My name is Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, and I am the co-owner and president of JA&M Developing Corp. We are a family-owned construction business and contractor, performing work in the private and public sectors, serving the south Florida market. JA&M is a small- and women-owned business with 26 full-time employees. I am testifying today on behalf of the Associated Builders and Contractors, a national construction industry trade association established in 1950, that represents more than 21,000 members across the country. I am currently on the ABC Florida East Coast Chapter board of directors, serving as the treasurer. It is because of the construction industry that I am able to be here to share my story with you today. I was born to immigrant parents who chose to flee religious and political persecution by the Cuban Government just 90 miles from Florida. It is because of their bravery and a belief in greater freedom that I have the opportunities I do in this country, to own and operate a business in the construction industry. When my father came to this country in 1969, he entered the construction workforce with nothing except the clothes on his back. Construction was part of our daily lives while I was growing up. While my initial focus was a career in education, eventually earning my doctorate in philosophy and working in the teaching and counseling field for close to 15 years, I assisted my father with his construction company. However, it wasn't until 2005 that my siblings and I founded JA&M. It was then that our family came together to work full time in the construction industry. Today, I would like to share how a significant investment in America's infrastructure would impact my small business and other businesses like mine in the construction industry. I also would like to provide a word of caution to the Subcommittee and to urge Congress to avoid enacting restrictive policies referenced President Biden's American Jobs Plan, like the Protecting the Right to Organize, or the PRO Act; government-mandated project labor agreements, or PLAs; and just a one-size-fits-all approach to our workforce development. The inclusion of these policies and others like them would significantly limit the success of any potential infrastructure bill, as they would prevent qualified merit shop contractors from participating in rebuilding their communities. Finally, I would also like to highlight the negative impact that proposed tax increases from the majority in Congress and the White House would have on small- and family-owned businesses. As a small business in the construction industry, an ongoing challenge that we have is hiring the skilled workforce we need to be competitive. And we are not alone, as there are hundreds of thousands of open construction jobs right now. Any infrastructure proposal should make it easier for private employers to train tomorrow's construction workforce through a variety of workforce development options, including industry-tested and recognized craft training programs and registered apprenticeship models. Unfortunately, President Biden's American Jobs Plan urges Congress to tie infrastructure investments funded under this plan to the restrictive policies that I referenced before, which would limit the pipeline of workers entering the industry. I would call on Congress to reject these policies as the current shortage of workers would only be exasperated by an increase in the money spent on infrastructure. Importantly, Congress must realize that most small businesses in the construction industry are not signatory to a construction union. These policies are likely to increase costs, reduce job creation, decrease the number of infrastructure projects, and discourage the merit shop construction industry and their skilled local workforce from competing for taxpayer-funded construction projects. I urge Congress to consider investing in America's infrastructure and ensuring that small construction businesses are not excluded from the competitive bidding process for federal infrastructure projects. While I do appreciate the conversation taking place and a public commitment to infrastructure improvements, it is my understanding that only a small percentage of the funds in the American Jobs Plan are allocated toward the construction of physical infrastructure. The construction industry can help lead America's economic resurgence, and Congress should not allow this to become a missed opportunity. So in conclusion, construction is an industry that gave my family its start. It was our shining light of opportunity, and continues to provide for my family and my employees. It has been an industry that has allowed us also to give back, to improve the life of others, and to become a supporting role in our local community. The industry has responded to the skilled work shortage by increasing wage rates and improving benefit packages. In Florida, we are fortunate to participate in partnerships between the Associated Builders and Contractors and groups like the Boys and Girls Clubs where we can speak to students about the benefits of a career in construction. Through an all-of-the-above approach to pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship programs, we continue to work to expand the numbers of people educated and upskilled in the trades. The American Dream and construction industry, they go together. It is through construction that we can provide for our family, create jobs for workers, and give back to our communities. If enacted, I cannot imagine what this plan would mean for all the families that depend on JA&M, let alone all the millions of families around the country that depend on small business for their survival. I plead with you to help us preserve the construction industry for the next generation. Without you, there may not be a future for countless potential craft professionals. I thank you for your time and consideration of this testimony as a representation of a small, merit shop contractor, and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Mrs. Mecias-Murphy. I appreciate your comments. And the fact that we have divergent views on this bill that all of us are looking forward hopefully to the same bright future, a future with good results, is what drives this committee. This is really sausage-making in the process, so it is not pretty, but we will find a way to make the sausage hopefully, eventually, and to deliver something very important on infrastructure. I want to thank all of you who have shared your time with us. And I want to begin the questioning by recognizing myself for 5 minutes. And I would like to start with Ms. Ohrenberg. I read in your testimony that a single million dollar contract is different from 40 $25,000 contracts. Now, they both equate to the same dollar amount. My assumption is, and I hope you can expand on this, that there are inherent benefits in wielding million dollar contracts for small businesses that sometimes people in the larger society may not understand and what that does to enhance the growth of a small business, as opposed to 40 $25,000 contracts that you referenced. Ms. OHRENBERG. Correct. So one single project is going to require, from an internal office staff, a project manager. So if you break those all up into 40 different contracts, you have to have 40 different project managers. It takes as much resources, from an office perspective, to manage one $25,000 project as it does a million dollar project, from an accounting, from project management, superintendents. So if we have to divide our staff up against 40 jobs instead of just one job, then we have to have 40 times more staff, and that is very difficult for a small business to be able to staff that many types of projects. Chairman MFUME. And does it enhance bonding requirements? Does it create, in addition to that, a better perception with primes or with the government? I am just trying to get to the heart of understanding all of it. I do recognize the need to hire a bunch of different people for project management, but are there some inherent benefits there also? Ms. OHRENBERG. A $25,000 project is not likely going to require a bond, but a larger one would. So you would be building your bonding capacity by having larger projects. Chairman MFUME. Thank you. And, Mr. Thomas, if I can come to you, I want to go specifically to Amtrak and to kind of get your experience that you have had representing contracting opportunities with Amtrak. They are set to get quite a bit of support under this program. Can you talk about that for just a moment? Mr. THOMAS. [Inaudible.] Chairman MFUME. I think you are muted. Mr. THOMAS. Thank you. Thank you. So I said all that for nothing. No. Oh, well. What I mean is, you know, I was executive director of this organization in the eighties, in 1985. And there was a big, big project with Amtrak, $2.2 billion to our project, and we had DBEs on the contract, a lot of our members. And a study was done to test the effectiveness, and, you know, it was a great report. It was documented that we performed within budget and on time. The goal was 15 percent. The actual action was 17.8 percent. We got very good reviews, and that is what you can do when you have the leadership. The leadership at the time of Amtrak and DOT, they were committed to the project, and it did well. The excuses like, ``we can't find them,'' was just not made available. And so if we can have that same kind of commitment today, I think we can have the same results. Chairman MFUME. So was the ``we can't find them'' statement meaning, we can't find minority contractors qualified? Mr. THOMAS. Exactly. Well, it is the same excuse that we have heard since I have been involved in the business, and it is not something that can't be resolved. You know, they used to do the same thing at NASA. You know, at NASA, it is the most technological agency that there is probably in the world. And we also got those excuses until we came up with a solution that worked for a while. We would measure--we would get the needs of the prime contractors, what they said they needed, and we would send them to our list of contractors, of small, disadvantaged business contractors. And they would send their qualifications to these prime contractors in the form that they ask it to be presented, and that resolved that problem right away. At one point for one project, they told us to stop sending them, you know, so---- Chairman MFUME. Okay. Mr. THOMAS.--so they are there. You can--you know, if you do it right, you know, you will get the right person. Chairman MFUME. Okay. Maybe we can come back to that. My time has expired. Mr. Bone and Mrs. Murphy, perhaps in the second round, I will have an opportunity to pose a question to both of you. But right now, I am going to yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. Salazar of Florida, who is recognized now for 5 minutes. Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I am very happy that you are willing to invite the other side of the aisle, the minority party, to create the sausage. So we really want to make it big, fat, and good for everybody to eat. Chairman MFUME. Okay. Ms. SALAZAR. So I wanted to, first of all, recognize Mrs. Mecias and thank you once again for being here with us. I have a couple of questions, and I also, within my 5 minutes, I would like to ask the other witnesses or the other guests. You know, Mrs. Mecias, that the Biden administration is proposing to favor unionized workers over nonunionized workers. In other words, the people that are not part of a union could be discriminated by people like you in the construction industry. So I would like you to explain to us, give me an example, what would this look like for a small business entrepreneur, minority-oriented company like yours. What would this look like if this part of the provision were to be accepted? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative Salazar. It pretty--what it does to my company, in particular, and a lot of small businesses, it basically completely takes us out from being able to bid, from the opportunities to be able to bid on any one of these projects. Most than 80 percent of the workforce is nonunion. We are a merit shop company, and therefore, we wouldn't even qualify at all. Ms. SALAZAR. That bad? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes. Ms. SALAZAR. All right. Now, what about the other side? You know that your company is a very good example for what you explained to us the other day, that under the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, that truly helped people like you and your employees, and one of them, you were explaining to us, that was able to purchase their first home because of the extra cash in their pocket, thanks to that law. Now, if we see the opposite happening and you see, as you mentioned in your statements, that there is the possibility of taxes increasing, give me, once again, a scenario, what would that look like? What would that be--what type of effect will that have in a small business, minority owner, entrepreneur like you are? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So, first of all, I would just like to explain, the excitement that comes across my desk when I get an employee verification form, which has not just been one, it has been close to four employees that have purchased their first home, and that to us is just super exciting. Ms. SALAZAR. That is the American Dream. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes, yes. What would--I mean, we have been able to give health insurance benefits and 401 benefits for the first time since our company opened. We weren't able to do that before. And actually give higher bonuses. Ms. SALAZAR. Okay. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. If this tax increase were to occur, we most likely would have to let go some of our employees, and I am not sure if we would be able to offer the incentives that they so well deserve if---- Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you. I am going to cut you off because I want to--we got your answer. But I want to go to Ms. Sheila and Mr. Ralph Thomas. Just briefly, we sponsored, along with other Members of the Committee, a bill, H.R. 3065, the Expanding Contracting Opportunities for Small Business Act. And this bipartisan bill--and I am very proud to be part of it--would praise the maximum threshold for sole source from $5 million to $8 million for general contracts and from $7 million to $10 million for manufacturing contracts. What do you think about this, this initiative? Mr. THOMAS. Are you addressing me first? Ms. SALAZAR. Yes, sir, absolutely. We have 45 seconds. You can have it all. Mr. THOMAS. Okay. Well--so, well, that--well, a lot of the smaller businesses would love that, you know, in terms of because it would create more opportunities. If you make the sole source higher, then that means there will be more competition. So the smaller companies would like that as well as the--you know, we have a problem with manufacturing businesses, but, you know, in terms of--there is a shortage of them. But for those that exist, I am sure they would prefer the ability to do more work. And the higher the sole source limit is, then they can compete for more projects. Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you. I yield back. My time is up. I will talk to you later on today. I have a couple of other questions, but my time is up. Yield back to you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman MFUME. [Inaudible.] Ms. NEWMAN. Mr. Chairman, I think you are on mute. Chairman MFUME. Okay. Thank you. I am going to make my second request to staff, do not mute me. Allow me to mute and unmute myself. It is hard sometimes locating the button I need. I don't know if I can be any clearer than that. Thank you very much for yielding back, Ms. Salazar. The Chair would like to recognize the distinguished gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms. Newman, to proceed for the next 5 minutes. Go right ahead, please. Ms. NEWMAN. Well, thank you, Chairman Mfume, and thank you, Ranking Member Salazar. Good to see everybody today. I hope everybody is enjoying the summer. I thought I would start by congratulating everyone, all of our guests. You have all been through a heck of a year and really came out on top, so congratulations. Mrs. Mecias-Murphy, I have run a couple small businesses, so God bless, and thank you for employing folks. And we all have had challenges but excited to move forward. I did want to correct the record on a couple comments that were made. So I sit on the T&I Committee, and I am from the labor movement. I am a former small business owner, ran a couple of companies, as well as was a management consultant to both Fortune 500 companies down to sole proprietor, so the whole spectrum of folks, right, and got in the muck of it with process and ops and facilities and on and on and on. So, with all that, I just wanted to come back to you. At 4:15 this morning, we finished the Surface Transportation Act, which is separate from the American Jobs Act. So I wanted to tell you--Annie, Sheila, Ralph, and Josh-- that we have a robust, over $500 billion plus act that is separate from the American Jobs Act, which will include fixing bridges, fixing roads, and making sure that housing goes up well, and that things are funded across our nation that are civic infrastructure projects. So look forward to that and enjoying all of that. I am excited the jobs that that will produce. Now, the American Families Act, let's just do a quick fact- check on that, because we just got a fact sheet on that, so why don't we just share a little bit about that. So in the American Jobs Act, it includes housing, as well as transit agencies, rail, fixing roads and bridges, civic infrastructure, retrograde housing, and on and on and on. So it is an infrastructure bill, largely, and a jobs bill. I just wanted to clear that up for everybody. So moving on, also with regard to the PRO Act, so given that I have been actively involved in 30 years and have worked with over 50 municipalities in this nation, around labor movements, I just want to assure you, Mrs. Mecias-Murphy, that in no town of those 50 did we have any negativity attached to PLAs and that kind of thing. In fact, the exact opposite happened. In right-to-work--in those 33 right-to-work--or States, rather, actually, the health incomes go down, incomes go down, the overall income and tax income in a State goes down in all 33. So I just wanted to clear that up for everybody. Now, Ralph, I have a couple questions for you. I am very excited about what you said. I love workforce training. So wanted to find out, can you share--by the way, congratulations on 52 years, way to go. Can you share a little bit about what would be helpful to you in terms of workforce training and development immediately to help your organization? I loved your NASA analogy, and I am very well aware of how that program works, so tell us more about what you would like to see happen. Mr. THOMAS. [Inaudible.] Ms. NEWMAN. Ooh, you are on mute, Mr. Thomas. Mr. THOMAS. Okay. How is that? Ms. NEWMAN. Great. Mr. THOMAS. Yes, yes. Well, the first thing has already happened. I mean, what we see--I don't know if this is in the program that you just agreed to---- Ms. NEWMAN. Yeah. Mr. THOMAS.--but we were happy to see projected more funds for workforce development. Because we have to draw upon--and we have to have it be diverse, because those are the employees that we are dependent upon to draw from. And where there is no move toward workforce development--and I don't think there has been in DOT since 2017 when it wasn't re-funded---- Ms. NEWMAN. Yep. Mr. THOMAS.--that leaves us in a bind, because where are we going to get the people from, you know. And so we would like to see that. We would like to always be involved in that, in terms of apprenticeships, in terms of--we like to be involved in the ground floor, so that we can determine, you know, what the fields are that are going to be developed so that we can, you know, get our folks into those programs, into those programs and graduated from those programs. I mean, because that provides the best--workforce development provides the best training that I am aware of, so---- Ms. NEWMAN. We are at the end of our time. And Mr. Mfume, if I may at this time at the end, I would love a couple more questions if you have time. Thank you. And I yield back. Chairman MFUME. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. Gentlewoman yields back. The Chair would like to recognize the distinguished gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Hagedorn. Mr. HAGEDORN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And I know it is not your decision, but I think we have a solution to this mute/unmute issue and it is, let's start meeting in person, again, and doing our job in Washington in our Committee room. You know, we are watching NHL and NBA games played indoors with 10-, 20,000 people. I think we can squeeze 30 or 40 into a Committee room and do our job in person. That is just my opinion. Of course, I support infrastructure--roads, bridges, locks, dams, trucks, rail, and pipelines. And I think, actually, the majority might have to explain to us how they are for infrastructure, but they want to shut down things like Keystone Pipeline. But that is very important to our district in southern Minnesota, infrastructure. I am all for it. We have farmers that need to move their grain. We have the Mayo clinic and other institutions of medicine that receive samples and tissues from all around the world every day. Small businesses and manufacturers, of course, depend upon infrastructure and transportation to do their businesses and, hopefully, we can get together and have a bipartisan bill in order to focus on those types of things. So Dr. Mecias-Murphy, I am going to throw out a couple of ideas about how we can have some good government policies moving forward, and maybe you can address them. One is the in the area of the labor shortage. Some Members of Congress in my State, including Representatives Emmer, Stauber, Fischbach, and myself have written Governor Walz and said, you need to forego that extra $300 a week federal unemployment compensation and get back to regular order when someone doesn't seek work or they refuse work outright, they lose their benefits. They lose that compensation. You need to push them into the workforce. That is the first idea. The second is, a bill that I have introduced, the American Workforce Empowerment Act, H.R. 2691, which would enable families to use 529 savings accounts for people not just to go to 4-year college, but also go to vocational school and get certificates, go do those programs, and get into the trades and purchase equipment and tools and things like that which would be necessary. We think that would be good to help our skilled workforce. What are your thoughts about those two ideas? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So you have just hit an area aside from construction that is just something that I am super passionate about. Our involvement and our partnership with the Boys and Girls Clubs and ABC allows us to work on apprenticeship level because, as you know, kids in middle school and high school, they are not always being said, Hey, the trades are a viable option. It is something that can really work for you and can give you a good living. It is a good first option. So what we have been able to do is able to go into the Boys and Girls Club, have different trades, different member companies from ABC go in there and be able to show and expose the students. I know not everybody has had the privilege to be able to see on a daily basis growing up what the construction industry is like, but going into these clubs and working with the middle and high school students and being able to expose them, taking them on field trips, providing internships for them has allotted exposure to them. And over the last couple of years, there has actually been close to 40 students that have graduated, and have actually been hired with some of our member companies. An example, actually, is a crane company. An 18-year-old just to start training was paid $20 an hour. And that is just to start training. And as they went up, a crane operator can make high as $30, $40 an hour, depending on their experience. So anything that is going to help that aspect, especially with the pre-apprenticeship, it is a little bit longer piece. But we have also extended it to the family, to the parents of these kids that may not have jobs that could actually start on the labor level, and labor level starts at the $15 an hour. Mr. HAGEDORN. That is great. I have to reclaim my time---- Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So sorry about that. Mr. HAGEDORN.--and I appreciate that very much what you are doing. I would also like to point out that we talked a little bit about--the witnesses did--about material cost and copper was mentioned. And I think, you know, one of the things that goes on, we are driving up the cost of things because they are in short supply, because the environmentalists, extremists won't let us go and get the copper and things like that in America. In Congressman Stauber's district, he is on this call right now, up in northern Minnesota, they have a large supply of the nickel and copper for the United States right up there, but he is having a hard time, you know, getting through and getting those mines open. So I just want to commend Congressman Stauber for fighting for his constituents and getting mining in America going. I certainly support you, Congressman Stauber, every step of the way. O thank you for what you are doing. I yield back. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recognizes, ironically, Mr. Stauber, for the next 5 minutes. Feel free to proceed. Thank you. Mr. STAUBER. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. And there are times I have trouble with my mute button too, so if we can be in the same class. I appreciate Mr. Chair and our Ranking Member for holding this important meeting. I also want to thank the witnesses for being part of the discussion. Your success and your conversations are very vital to all of us as we craft good legislation. Line 3 is a 340-mile pipeline replacement taking place in northern Minnesota. Construction of the new Line 3 will not only help in our efforts for energy independence, but will supply countless jobs to small contractors in an area desperate for economic development and modernize our energy infrastructure for the future. This project should be celebrated, yet just this week, thousands of dangerous protesters, led by Democrat Party stalwarts like Jane Fonda, are being bussed in from Hollywood and other coastal elite cities and are causing harm to small contractors seeking to simply do their jobs. In fact, nearly 50 union workers had to be evacuated from their work site, including employees of the entire Native American-owned and operated pipeline contractor Gordon Construction. Dr. Mecias-Murphy, could you describe the danger and damage that protesters would pose to your construction business if they showed up to your sites and chained themselves to equipment, punctured tires, damaged windshields, and other equipment? What would that do to your small business? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative Stauber, for that question. First of all, when I read about that, I--it just truly really surged in me just so much concern, and my heart really went out to that business. If that would have happened to our business, first of all, with safety being such an important and critical factor that for our employees and for everyone around us, the first thing, obviously, that would have come to mind is the concern for safety by these protesters having gone in, having trespassed, having damaged property, and having tied themselves to this equipment. But putting that piece aside to a small business, I think folks might not realize that sometimes a day of delay or just that--that the woman is saying, Oh, it is just a day; it is not a big deal. In the construction industry with so many overlapping pieces and parts of the puzzle, that can delay you 2 weeks, 4 weeks. And what that does, especially for a small business, is that in your cash flow, you are having to pay for all these different things, putting them up to speed to try to have them work where they need to be back to the time that you lost. And, then, not only that, put aside the small business piece, you have workers that can't go into work. You have then workers who can't get paid because they aren't working. Their families aren't getting fed or paying their bills. You have done a domino effect where maybe folks have been trying to prove a point. What they have actually done is hurt the people that they are saying that they are trying to help. They are affecting families and communities. Mr. STAUBER. So what I hear you saying is, it is devastating for the small company; it is devastating for the workers; it is devastating for the families, and it is devastating for the communities? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Absolutely. Yes, sir. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. Thank you. To me it is actually laughable to me that we are here today to discuss Joe Biden's infrastructure plan, and how it will, quote, help small contractors. President Biden and his administration canceled thousands of jobs already on the Keystone XL Pipeline earlier this year, in fact, within 5 hours of his inauguration. It is the actions of this administration that empowers these activists currently doing damage in my district and others throughout the country. If President Biden wants to demonstrate that he is serious about America's infrastructure future, he will call on these activists to stop their protesting at once so that our small contractors can get back to work. And I yield back. Chairman MFUME. The gentleman yields back. The Chair is deciding to do a second round and unless we are joined by other members, it should probably go faster than the first round, but I would like to begin and recognize myself for 5 minutes and go to Mr. Bone. Mr. Bone, do recruitment strategies change based on the segment of the population that you are trying to attract? And I appreciate all the work that you are doing with ELECTRI. Can you tell us what strategies would you recommend in this bill as it goes forward to recruit men--women, I should say, and minorities at a better and higher rate than we have previously done? Mr. BONE. Absolutely. Thank you, Chairman Mfume. Yes, to be successful, you have to use different methods to recruit. For me, I have had the privilege in my career to work more closely with minorities and women in construction as a construction technologist. A lot of the thought leaders in the industry that have adopted new technologies have had that opportunity in our industry. So--and today, one of the things I have found for women in the industry, is they bring a lot of great skill sets, and there is a lot of new technologies that enable them and empower them to work in this industry. I think there is a lot of misconceptions around the fact that this industry is a male- driven industry. And we need to start at early ages educating young girls in middle school, high school, and even in the community and technical colleges, that this industry is changing. We are adopting technology. What once was a very strenuous job today with exoskeletons and equipment, and moving work off-site looks more like a manufacturing floor today on any--for a lot of these companies. So we are doing a lot more off-site construction to help us deliver projects on time and within budget. Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Mr. Bone. And no matter what kind of a bill we come up with, the electrical construction industry is going to be significantly impacted. Mr. BONE. Absolutely. Chairman MFUME. Can you take a minute to talk about the importance of unions in electrical construction and throughout that industry? Mr. BONE. Yes. Now, ELECTRI is not affiliated with any unions, but our friends at NECA have worked closely with IBEW labor partners for over a 100 years without a single strike. So NECA and our contractors take great pride in the skill level and commitment of the workforce that we bring to the table. I just, last week, was in Jacksonville, Florida, visiting a JTC that had opened up a new systems integrator lab that takes these new technologies, provides hands-on training installing new technologies like that are linked to software that connect sensors and intelligent equipment that can help us invest in infrastructure that is more sustainable, and it creates new types of skills and jobs that are--that we can use for many years going forward. So it makes our--for small businesses that get involved with this it provides an opportunity for them to create jobs that have long-lasting impact to their small businesses. Chairman MFUME. Thank you, sir. And Mr. Thomas, I want to slightly change the conversation and go from the electrical industry back over to transportation. We don't know what is going to eventually come out of this Committee, out of this Congress, but we hope that we are going to have a bill, and whatever that bill is, I would like for you, based on your experience and counseling in serving small firms across the country, what is, in your opinion, the biggest obstacle going forward that has to be addressed in that bill to increase participation by minorities in transportation projects. Mr. THOMAS. Yes. We have to take a stronger approach to compliance and enforcement. As I said, we have a 10 percent goal floor for all the States, and 23 percent are not meeting it. Many of them ask for waivers and, you know, whatnot, and, you know, by saying they are not there. What we need to do is find something that, you know--I think a lot of organizations like those here should be funded, to some extent, for the purpose of identifying eligible small contractors, whether they be minority, or women, or otherwise disadvantaged, to identify them for the prime contractors and the agencies. Chairman MFUME. Thank you. Mr. THOMAS. Thank you. Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Mr. Thomas. I am almost at the end of my time. I do want to get over to Ms. Mecias-Murphy one more time and ask, what role do you think, Ms. Murphy, that the SBA contracting programs and DBE Program ought to play now as we obviously move toward infrastructure, but also, as we see businesses trying to recover from this year-long pandemic? Any thoughts on those lines? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. From hearing the conversations, I would say that it is just making sure that whatever laws are in place and goals, that they are followed. Chairman MFUME. Okay. I appreciate it. At some point in time, maybe not here, but later, I would like to get all of you to comment on the Prompt Payment Act and what prompt payment has done, and is not doing with respect to small businesses, but my time is expired. So let me, again, recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Salazar, of Florida. Ms. SALAZAR. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I think my next question is for Mr. Bone. I was following your testimony, and I am also very concerned, as you are, about the delays in payments to subcontractors. I mean, if you don't get the money, you may go under in a month or two. And I would like for you to expand a little bit more on your suggestion regarding sending payment notices and getting paid on time, if you can expand on that a little bit further. Mr. BONE. Absolutely. Capital is king in the construction industry. It is how businesses survive, and small contractors have limited amounts of capital. And what we have to ensure that when you are a sub to a sub to a sub, and that happens very frequently in these flow down policies on the larger projects that it becomes even tougher to get paid. So the ability to fund your business and work off that capital to pay your people is extremely tough for the smaller businesses that flow down in that work. So the larger contracts that do sub out to these small arsenal of contractors, it makes it much tougher for them. Ms. SALAZAR. So what do you suggest? What can we do in order to help that sub of the sub of the sub, the one that has the small business, entrepreneur that has three employees and needs that money right away? Mr. BONE. We need to have opportunities to work with contracts directly with those that are paying. So that it doesn't have to go through the process of a general contractor through the sub and working back up through that flow. Representative Salazar, that is the challenge that we face. So if it is--if we are waiting on pay if paid or paid when paid, that language is what impacts our small contractors more than anything else. We need to have the ability, once we can prove we have done the work in a fair way, that the contracts can ensure that our small contractors are being paid promptly. Ms. SALAZAR. And I would like to ask the same question to Ms. Mecias. Just give me a scenario, an anecdote, where you have felt exactly what Mr. Bone is describing? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Absolutely. You have the--especially on federal contracts, you have a paid when paid clause and sometimes it is 60, 90, 120 days. And for a small business, that is completely detrimental. You have--I think in Florida, the sunshine--there is Prompt Payment Act and the whole piece is that you get paid promptly, but it is more of a theory than really a practice. Ms. SALAZAR. A reality. Uh-huh. So, in which way Congress could help that very small business owner get paid on time in a fair fashion, the way that it needs to be done? Because from what I am understanding here is that someone is taking advantage of the small guy. So in which way--and specifically minority business owners, that I am sure don't have the protections that the big general contractors have, so what can we do with the last--we have a minute and a half, so I will yield to you. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So I can only speak from personal experience and my personal experience, usually the contractors that I have worked with, we will get paid within 5 days of payment. So, it is not on that end. Unfortunately, it is on the whole paperwork bureaucratic component that gets stuck up on that level. Again, I am not at the time one with all the answers, but probably a quicker way of going through those leaps and hurdles and trying to be a little bit more considering the small business, and the businesses and realizing that the quicker they are able to do that processing, and be conscientious of that, and having a certain timeline to do that, realize how big it really affects small businesses. And that really draws up the cost, because any federal project that you know you are going to bid, you realize that you have that in the back of your mind, that I am not going to get paid for 60 or 90 days. So it does drive up the cost to the taxpayer as well. Ms. SALAZAR. I see. Very good point. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. Gentlewoman's time has expired. I want to recognize Ms. Newman, but Ms. Newman, if you would hold on for just a second. This whole issue of prompt payment, which I think Mr. Bone referenced that we should just follow existing laws on this, underscores an important point. In 1996, when the regs were written on this, enter the Prompt Payment Act. Any agency that fails to pay within the required time would be liable for the delinquent payment. So obviously if we know that the biggest hurdle and detriment to Black businesses, Latino businesses, Asian businesses, women businesses is the lack of access to capital and credit, prompt payment does play an extremely crucial role, and it is maybe something that the full Committee on Small Business decides to look at, and if not, I could try to find some way for us to be able to do that, because it is a law that just has to be enforced. I am going to stop my filibuster, since I am on the House side anyway, and yield to the distinguished gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms. Newman, and thank her for hanging around to the end. Ms. NEWMAN. Well, thank you for putting together this great conversation today, and, Chair Mfume, I will gladly volunteer to work with you on that topic. I am a big fan of paying people on time, and having it be predictable. I am seeing a thumbs up from my friend, Ms. Salazar. So maybe all three of us could get together and have a coffee over that. So look forward to that. Couple of things--first of all, Mr. Bone, thank you so much for highlighting that. I think that is critical. But this goes--this, actually, proves my point about PLA. So interestingly--this is a fun little data point--is that more than 80 percent of the time when there is a PLA in place, that it requires whoever is engaged in the party system, so whether there is a subcontractor, a contractor, a franchiser, whatever it is, it requires a very specific payment chronology and cadence on top of that federal law Mr. Mfume has talked about. So PLAs are really good at enforcing those types of things, particularly when there is a union involved. And, by the way, I might remind everybody that when you have a PLA, it doesn't prevent you from having nonunion help, it just requires and protects those that are engaged in unions, and so that they have better benefits and pay, et cetera, and that is safer. I also might add on PLA-based construction sites that more than 60 percent of those engagements, whether it is a GC contractor or PLA/GC contractor, it is usually somewhere in the range of 66 (ph) to 65 percent safer, there are fewer accidents, people are paid on time, and they tend to be not be overbudget, and they tend to be on-time projects. So I understand there is some confusion around PLAs, but it is not the boogie man as was suggested. So I guess I am going to turn it over to Ms. Mecias-Murphy and tell me the top three things that frustrate you about PLAs. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Sure, Representative Newman. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on that. I would say the biggest part--it is not really that we are, you know, that I am antiunion by any means; it is just basically that a lot of the mandates they are not as good. They restrict someone like a merit shop company to be able to bid on certain projects if these things aren't in place. That is number one. We just want fair all across the board. Ms. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Not--to this day, we are still in a country that is free, and, you know, we could pick whether we want to be part of a union or not. Ms. NEWMAN. Sure. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So with that being said, a high concern is, especially as the Representative from Minnesota had mentioned, and that concern, there is new possible concerns regarding these labor union--again, I don't want to get into all the weeds piece. I want to kind of stay very---- Ms. NEWMAN. Yeah. I--just to be clear, I just need--so I haven't--the first reason why PLA is bad. So if you can go back to your first reason. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So the noncompetitive. Not being able to compete--being able to be on a fair playing field as far as it relates to this proposed bill. The second one, and with that is the missed opportunities. The second one is if there is a-- if there is a project and there is a protest under this new act, even though it may not deal with me as a subcontractor, those labor unions can actually go on any one of my jobs and actually do that as well. And that is a concern because that can really hurt my company personally, and those that work for us as well. Ms. NEWMAN. So you are saying that you don't want anyone to ever protest on any business ever? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. That is not what I said. That is not what I said. Ms. NEWMAN. Okay. I am not sure how that syncs up with your right to protest and your freedom of speech. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. No. I just said that that could really hurt our company. That is all. Ms. NEWMAN. But it would anybody. So any business where someone feels the need to protest, they have that right to do that, as long as they are not physically harming people. So I guess that is just a freedom of speech right to protest situation, not necessarily, no one is targeting you, in other words. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So the third point is the increased cost that typically having unions on the job tend to have. I have seen that in different projects in Florida. I don't know. Maybe in your State, or your area, it is a little bit different and maybe in your experiences. But in Florida, the jobs have definitely gone up a lot higher by using unions. You do have a more limited, especially in Florida--and, again, I can only talk about Florida. It is a right-to-work State. More than 80 percent of the workers are nonunion, so there is more competitive, and it does allow to have better pricing; otherwise, when you have the PLAs and those agreements, there are certain amounts that are required. So that is all I am saying as---- Ms. NEWMAN. Okay. I just want to remind, for the record, that right-to-work States, all 33 States, health outcomes are much far worse, lower incomes overall, and lower wages. So I just want to end with that, but thank you very much. And I yield back. Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Sure. Our offices can get back to you as well, Representative Newman, with any additional questions that you or the Committee may have. Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from Illinois yields back. The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Meuser. Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Happy to be with the Committee here today, and thank you to the witnesses. I am, in fact, joining a little bit late, but I did catch that exchange, which I found fascinating. Ms. Murphy, I am going to ask you, and you probably didn't come here to get inquisitioned about whether or not you are antiunion, but I will say that is certainly what it sounded like. I, myself, am a Republican in a non-right-to-work State, Pennsylvania, and I am always favorable to the trades. I think our unions have some great apprenticeship programs, and prevailing wage is something that we are all for, prevailing wage plus when it is plus-plus, that tends to get in the way of projects. So anything that is antigrowth and antidevelopment, I think is certainly a matter of discussion. And I think the trades--and it certainly sounded like you were trying to get this out, was--deserve a seat at the table just like those who choose not to be part of a trade or a union at that particular time. And PLAs, by the way, are one of the [inaudible]. It is not an inclusionary proposition, which is the reason that many companies have an issue with it. So I would just ask in the PRO Act, to have it remove States' rights such as the right to work is just unfair. States should be the ones who determine such things and the idea that the PRO Act calls for a secret ballot, or looks to remove the secret ballot, is quite interesting as well, because we are not talking about fairness here; we are talking about some other tactics that are simply inappropriate. So I appreciate where you are coming from, but at the same note, we have got to figure out how businesses can move forward, wages can stay high, and it is a very inclusionary atmosphere. But I will just ask you related to the PRO Act, and this might be repetitive, how will that affect your business if the PRO Act were to pass? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative. So I would like to maybe focus on the taxes piece about the increase in taxes, maybe, again, in this aspect as well, especially with all the benefits and the growth that we have seen in the last couple of years. I guess the biggest piece about the Act is the taxes piece also, that that concerns me. Because with--it just brings a lot of uncertainty to my company of what that would look like. Will I be able to continue with the employees that we do have? Will we be able to still provide the benefits that we do have? And those are high--those are high concerns, as well as--I agree with you on the secret ballots and all those other things, which kind of surprised me. I didn't really understand why that would be in this kind of bill. All we are asking is for, like what you said, a seat at the table and fairness all across the board for everyone. Mr. MEUSER. Let me ask you this, Ms. Murphy: The idea of the tax reductions that took place a couple of years ago had about a 20 percent reduction for small business. I have many friends who have small businesses, and most of them told me they were able to bring in more inventory, they were able to hire one or two more people, they were able to expand their business. They did not say, Hey, this is great. I am going to be making an extra $20,000 a year. What was your experience? What did you do with the tax relief that took place? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. I immediately went back and it went back into the employees. We were able to hire double the amount of employees that we had before then. We were able to also give raises, give very high bonuses, and be able to provide healthcare and 401 plans for the first time. Mr. MEUSER. So you are a passthrough business, of course. If that was changed, and that is a lot of talk, of course, about raising the income tax, as well as eliminating small business relief, would that reverse things for you, or how would you handle that, particularly after recovering out of COVID? Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes, it would definitely affect our business financially in a huge way, especially since with COVID, even though the construction companies were still working, there was a 3- to 4-month delay. Let's say we had projects that we were working on during COVID and we continued with those projects. But then, there was a lot of bidding and a lot of projects got held, because the building departments were closed, plans weren't being reviewed, or what have you. So it is kind of now--I would say there is probably a 4- to 6 months that there weren't any new projects being awarded, and that had an effect as well, especially with COVID, and that would just add on top of that situation. Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman MFUME. Absolutely. The gentleman from Pennsylvania's time has expired. In fact, all time has expired. And I want to personally, again, thank all of our witnesses for being here today to have comments on what we consider to be a very, very important subject, particularly our new witnesses in the persons of Mr. Bone, Ms. Ohrenberg, and Ms. Murphy, and our old friend, Mr. Thomas, who has joined us, again, before this Committee. We all agree, I think, that we have got to find ways to put the funding of whatever we come up with as a Congress so that it works for small businesses. Those businesses over the centuries helped to build this country. It is critical now, I think we will all agree, that they have to help be a part of the rebuild. It is my hope that this hearing shed light on existing programs to ensure the participation of small firms in that procurement process. And as we consider infrastructure proposals, we have got to work also to expand contracting opportunities, and provide small businesses with the resources they need to complete them. So at this point, I would like to ask unanimous consent that Members have 5 legislative days to submit statements and supporting materials for their record. Without objection, it is so ordered. And I want to thank, in particular, the Ranking Member, Ms. Salazar, for joining us for what we both consider is, hopefully, a step forward on this whole issue of contracting and infrastructure. If there is no further business before the Committee, the Committee now does stand adjourned. Thank you all very, very much. [Whereupon, at 2:37 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]