[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


              UTILIZATION OF SMALL CONTRACTORS IN THE 
                       INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

             SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING AND INFRASTRUCTURE

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                             JUNE 10, 2021

                               __________

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                               

            Small Business Committee Document Number 117-017
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
             
                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
44-750                       WASHINGTON : 2021                     
          
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                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                 NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
                          JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                          JASON CROW, Colorado
                         SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                         KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                        DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                         MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois
                       CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia
                         TROY CARTER, Louisiana
                          JUDY CHU, California
                       DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
                       ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
                     CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
                          ANDY KIM, New Jersey
                         ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
              BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member
                         ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
                        JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                        CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                       ANDREW GARBARINO, New York
                         YOUNG KIM, California
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                         BYRON DONALDS, Florida
                         MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                      SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin

                 Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director
            Ellen Harrington, Majority Deputy Staff Director
                     David Planning, Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Kweisi Mfume................................................     1
Hon. Maria Salazar...............................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, National President, Women Construction 
  Owners and Executives (WCOE), President, Sorella Group, Kansas 
  City, KS.......................................................     7
Mr. Ralph Thomas III, Executive Director Emeritus, National 
  Association of Minority Contractors (NAMC), Attorney, Law 
  Offices of Ralph C. Thomas III PLLC, Washington, DC............     9
Mr. Josh Bone, Executive Director, ELECTRI International, 
  Washington, DC, testifying on behalf of the National Electrical 
  Contractors Association (NECA).................................    10
Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, Co-Owner & President, JA&M Developing 
  Corp., Pembroke Pines, FL, testifying on behalf of the 
  Associated Builders and Contractors in her role as the 
  Treasurer and Board Member of the Florida First Coast Chapter..    12

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, National President, Women Construction 
      Owners and Executives (WCOE), President, Sorella Group, 
      Kansas City, KS............................................    30
    Mr. Ralph Thomas III, Executive Director Emeritus, National 
      Association of Minority Contractors (NAMC), Attorney, Law 
      Offices of Ralph C. Thomas III PLLC, Washington, DC........    35
    Mr. Josh Bone, Executive Director, ELECTRI International, 
      Washington, DC, testifying on behalf of the National 
      Electrical Contractors Association (NECA)..................    42
    Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, Co-Owner & President, JA&M 
      Developing Corp., Pembroke Pines, FL, testifying on behalf 
      of the Association Builders and Contractors in her role as 
      the Treasurer and Board Member of the Florida First Coast 
      Chapter....................................................    53
Questions and Answers for the Record:
    Questions from Hon. Scott Fitzgerald to Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg 
      and Answers from Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg......................    61
    Questions from Hon. Kweisi Mfume and Hon. Scott Fitzgerald to 
      Ms. Annie Mecias-Murphy and Answers from Ms. Annie Mecias-
      Murphy.....................................................    63
Additional Material for the Record:
    Direct Steel LLC.............................................    73

 
      UTILIZATION OF SMALL CONTRACTORS IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 2021

              House of Representatives,    
               Committee on Small Business,
    Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1:01 p.m., via 
Zoom, Hon. Kweisi Mfume [chairman of the Subcommittee] 
presiding.
    Present: Representatives Mfume, Newman, Andy Kim, Hagedorn, 
Stauber, Meuser, Salazar, and Fitzgerald.
    Chairman MFUME. Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to 
call to order this hearing today of the Subcommittee on 
Infrastructure and Contracting.
    And I would like to thank, first of all, all of the Members 
on both sides of the aisle who thought it important enough to 
be with us. There is a lot going on today, and I can appreciate 
that.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized, as most of you 
know, to declare a recess at any time.
    And let me begin by saying that standing House committee 
rules and practices will continue to apply during the remote 
proceedings. All Members are reminded that they are expected to 
adhere to those standing rules, including decorum, when they 
are participating in any remote event such as this.
    With that said, the technology that we are using today 
requires us to make small changes and modifications from time 
to time to ensure that Members can fully participate in these 
proceedings.
    House regulations require Members to be visible through a 
video connection throughout the proceeding, so I would 
respectfully ask that everyone keep their cameras on. If you 
have to participate in another proceeding, please exit and then 
log back in later at a time convenient for you.
    In the event that a Member encounters technical issues that 
prevent them from being recognized for their questioning, I 
will then move to the next available Member of the same party, 
and I will recognize the other Member at the next appropriate 
time slot, provided, that is, that they have returned back to 
the proceeding.
    Should a Member's time be interrupted by technical issues, 
I will recognize that Member at the next appropriate spot for 
the remainder of their time once the issues have, in fact, been 
resolved.
    And in the event that a witness loses connectivity during 
testimony or questioning, I will preserve their time as staff 
seeks to address the technical issue. In that event, I may need 
to recess the proceedings to provide time for the witness then 
themselves to reconnect.
    And, finally, please remember to remain muted until you are 
recognized in order to minimize the amount of background noise 
that oftentimes accompanies these Zoom meetings.
    In accordance with rules, staff has been advised to mute 
participants only in the event if there is inadequate 
background noise--or overwhelming background noise, I should 
say. And should a Member wish to be recognized, they then just 
should unmute themselves and seek recognition at, of course, 
the appropriate time.
    At this time, the Chair would like to recognize himself for 
an opening statement.
    Infrastructure helps to form the foundation of our nation. 
Every day, Americans across the country rely on infrastructure 
to commute to work, to access clean water, and to communicate 
with one another. But despite infrastructure's fundamental 
importance to our country, it has become an afterthought in 
many respects over the past several decades.
    The U.S., as we all know, is the wealthiest country 
globally, but we are ranked 13th worldwide when it comes to the 
quality of our infrastructure. Fortunately, there is a wide 
consensus, which is bipartisan, that the current state of 
American infrastructure is, in fact, unsustainable.
    That is why in April, President Biden introduced the 
American Jobs Plan. The plan would revitalize the American 
infrastructure through major investments and federal funding 
over the next decade.
    The job plan would fix highways, repair bridges, improve 
airports, water ports, expand transit and rail into new 
communities. It would also eliminate lead water pipes and 
improve high-speed broadband, upgrade our schools and federal 
buildings, and so much, much more.
    By all accounts, this plan, we believe, truly represents a 
new vision for America, one through which by rebuilding with 
purpose we take care of the environment, further enhance 
equity, and create the basis for a stronger economic future.
    In this respect, an investment in infrastructure would be a 
significant benefit to small firms. Small businesses, as we all 
know, rely on infrastructure systems daily to increase their 
access to consumers and suppliers, to boost business 
operations, and create new demand for their goods and for their 
many services.
    Infrastructure investment would also be a boon for the 
millions of small businesses that directly and indirectly 
support the development, modernization, and the maintenance of 
many facets of infrastructure.
    In the construction industry alone, it is estimated that 
there are 3 million small businesses employing over 82 percent 
of all U.S. employees in that one sector. Put simply, an 
investment in infrastructure is indeed an investment in small 
business.
    Currently, there are an array of federal measures in place 
to ensure small businesses can participate in the procurement 
process and receive their fair share of contracting dollars. 
For instance, a governmentwide goal requires that 23 percent of 
all eligible contracting--or prime contracting dollars be spent 
with small businesses, while other goals exist for specific 
subsets of small contractors at the prime and at the 
subcontracting level.
    Other policies include the creation of contracting programs 
administered by the SBA that reserve contracts for underserved 
small businesses through set-aside and sole-source 
opportunities.
    And, finally, there are contracting programs implemented at 
the State and local level whenever federal assistance is 
involved, such as the case in the Department of 
Transportation's Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program.
    The DBE Program is designed to enable women and minority 
small firms to compete for federal contracts led by State and 
local agencies. It is the Department of Transportation's most 
important tool for remedying many of the effects of 
discrimination and leveling the playing field for 
transportation-related projects.
    All of these programs are the well-being of the small 
business community and help, obviously, guarantee that small 
businesses will have a seat at the table when it comes to 
contracting.
    And so in light of the American Jobs Plan and the thousands 
of contracting opportunities it will create, I hope that 
today's hearing gives us a chance to look closer at these 
programs which I believe are crucial to maximize small business 
participation and contracting at the local, state, and federal 
level.
    I am also looking forward to hearing from our expert 
witnesses on ways that Congress can leverage infrastructure 
investment to meet the needs of small businesses across our 
country.
    I would like now, if I might, to yield respectfully to the 
Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, Ms. Salazar, the 
gentlewoman from the State of Florida, for her opening 
statement.
    Ms. Salazar, you are recognized.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Wonderful to see you 
and the rest of my colleagues. And holding this hearing is 
extremely important because we are at a critical time of 
economic recovery from the pandemic and our small business 
should be driving this recovery.
    Infrastructure is the vehicle. In south Florida, we 
understand this dynamic, that our economy is linked to miles of 
coastline. One of America's largest ports is in District No. 
27. We have major U.S. highways and an international airport in 
my district.
    Infrastructure is fundamental to our daily lives. We rely 
on it to go to work and to provide for our families. We spend 
valuable time going from place to place, from here to there. 
When it works, it improves our lives and it makes it a lot more 
enjoyable. But when highways are congested or public transit is 
delayed, it is not only frustrating, as I am sure you know, but 
it hurts our productivity and our economic growth.
    I think we can all agree that our aging infrastructure 
needs a major upgrade, and we must maintain our focus on 
improving the nation's core infrastructure system. I urge my 
colleagues across the aisle to work with us towards this goal.
    Where we disagree, I believe, is on the definition of 
infrastructure. Unfortunately, President Biden's plan is not 
about infrastructure at all, or very little. For example, the 
plan the President has proposed expands Medicaid coverage for 
home care. Medicare is fantastic for my constituents, but it 
has nothing to do with infrastructure.
    It puts billions and billions into social justice and 
violence prevention programs. That is fantastic, but it has 
nothing to do with infrastructure.
    It provides $12 billion to college infrastructure. I think 
education is key--the more you learn, the more you earn--but it 
has nothing to do with infrastructure.
    $180 billion for research and development. For what? I 
don't think research has anything to do with infrastructure.
    With only a fraction of those moneys related to 
infrastructure, it makes it really hard for us to understand 
and to agree with this bill the way it has been presented.
    These issues may be fine for Congress to consider at 
another time, but we need to be honest with the American 
people, with your constituents and mine. The administration is 
trying to fool us into believing that this wish list, which we 
agree with but has nothing to do with infrastructure, should be 
part of this bill.
    Now, to small business and contracting. If the goal of 
today's hearing is to discuss the utilization of small 
contractors in the President's package, we must understand the 
barriers that are imposed on small business owners.
    Small business operates best when the government does not 
stand in the way. Most things work best when government does 
not interfere. However, unfortunately, this package subjects 
the small business to an extended new set of rules, 
restrictions, restrictive labor rules, like the PRO Act, and 
other regulatory requirements that would end independent 
contracting, the franchise industry, and sharing the economy 
the way we know it now.
    In addition to these job-killing regulations, the President 
has proposed to pay for this multi-trillion dollar plan on the 
backs of the small businesses through tax increases. At least 1 
million small businesses will get a tax increase through this 
proposal.
    The foundation of any infrastructure project is the 
construction business--and we have a lot down here in Miami--
and the majority of the builders and the contractors or people 
that build buildings are small businesses.
    In the construction industry, we have a labor shortage, as 
you know, and there are already difficulties hiring workers, 
not only in construction, but in welding and electricians, all 
types of manufacturing-related jobs.
    According to the Associated General Contractors of America, 
81 percent of construction firms are having trouble finding 
people. There are more jobs than hands. And 72 percent 
anticipate labor shortages to be the big hurdle this coming 
year.
    I think, Mr. Chairman, that I look forward to hearing the 
testimonies of the witnesses today, and I would love to work 
across the aisle and make this a reality for all Americans.
    I yield back.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Ms. Salazar.
    The Ranking Member yields back. We appreciate your 
comments, and as I said before, obviously, appreciate your 
participation in this hearing.
    I would like to take a moment, if I might, to do a couple 
things. All Committee Members have opening statements, I 
assume, and if they are prepared, we would ask that they be 
submitted, without objection, for the formal record. Obviously, 
those statements take longer than 5 minutes, and so the revise 
and extend provision would apply here.
    I would also like to take a moment to explain how this 
remote hearing will proceed. Each witness will have 5 minutes 
to provide a statement, and each committee Member will receive 
5 minutes for questions. Please ensure that your microphone is 
on, not like mine a moment ago, and that when you begin 
speaking, and after you finish, you return to the mute option.
    I would like to now introduce our witnesses, as they are 
prepared to give their testimony. And, again, on behalf of all 
Members of this Committee, we appreciate your willingness to be 
here today.
    Our first witness is Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg, the president of 
Women Construction Owners and Executives. She is also president 
of Sorella Group, Incorporated, a specialty contractor offering 
full carpentry service and product supply and installation 
nationwide.
    Under Ms. Ohrenberg's leadership, Sorella Group has earned 
multiple awards, including the American Subcontractor 2012 
Associated Member Award, and Kansas City American Subcontractor 
2013 Subcontractor of the Year Award.
    Welcome to you, Ms. Sheila Ohrenberg. Thank you for being a 
witness, and thank you for being here.
    Our second witness is Mr. Ralph Thomas III, who is the 
executive director emeritus of the National Association of 
Minority Contractors. He is also a contracts litigator, who 
focuses his practice on legal issues affecting small 
businesses. And for more than a decade, Mr. Thomas has served 
as the associate administrator for the Office of Small and 
Disadvantaged Business Utilization at the National Aeronautics 
and Space Administration in Washington.
    He received his JD from Harvard Law School and his 
bachelor's of arts degree with honors from the University of 
California at Berkeley.
    Mr. Thomas, we welcome you as well, and we will get to you 
in just a moment.
    Our third witness today is Mr. Josh Bone. Mr. Bone is the 
executive director of ELECTRI International, a foundation 
established by the National Electrical Contractors Association 
in 1989, dedicated to conducting research and educating 
electrical contracting industry workers and businesses.
    Mr. Bone also served as the director of industry and 
innovation for NECA. He holds a bachelor's degree in industrial 
engineering from Southern Poly Tech State University.
    Welcome, of course, Mr. Bone, to you as well.
    And now, I would like to yield back to our Ranking Member, 
Ms. Salazar of Florida, to introduce our final witness.
    Ms. Salazar.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to welcome our final witness, who is also from 
south Florida, my district, Mrs. Annie Mecias-Murphy. Mrs. 
Mecias-Murphy is the co-owner and president of JA&M, a 
developing corporation. This is a family-owned operation, 
started by Mrs. Mecias' father over 45 years ago.
    Under her leadership, the company has grown into a very 
well-established and dependable company, earning the trust of 
many clients in the private and in the public sector.
    Her government clients extend over several departments and 
communities, like the Broward County Aviation Department, 
Miami-Dade County, the Florida Division of Highway Safety and 
Motor Vehicles, and the City of Miami.
    As a testament of her outstanding leadership, her company 
has won the Excellence in Construction Award given by the 
Associated Builders and Contractors of East Coast Chapter in 
2017.
    Mrs. Mecias herself was honored as one of the top 50 women 
business leaders in Florida, and in 2014, she was named VIP 
Woman of the Year for her outstanding dedication to her 
profession. She has also been selected this year as one of the 
top 100 leaders in construction by the World Real Estate and 
Construction Forum.
    Giving back to her community and investing in the lives of 
young people in my district, having taught in high school and 
university for more than 20 years, she also serves on the board 
of Boys and Girls Club of Broward County.
    In addition to her many professional and personal 
achievements, Mrs. Mecias serves as a treasurer and board 
member of the South Florida Chapter of Associated Builders and 
Contractors, or ABC, whose on behalf she is testifying today. 
ABC is a national construction industry trade association 
representing over 20,000 members.
    Mrs. Mecias, thank you for being here with us, for your 
participation, and we look forward to hearing your testimony.
    I yield back now, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Ms. Salazar.
    And, Mrs. Mecias, welcome again to you, and thank you, like 
the others, for being here with us today.
    We will begin now our testimony from the witnesses, and the 
Chair will recognize Ms. Ohrenberg for 5 minutes. Please feel 
free to proceed.

 STATEMENTS OF MS. SHEILA OHRENBERG, NATIONAL PRESIDENT, WOMEN 
 CONSTRUCTION OWNERS AND EXECUTIVES (WCOE), PRESIDENT, SORELLA 
    GROUP, KANSAS CITY, KS; MR. RALPH THOMAS III, EXECUTIVE 
DIRECTOR EMERITUS, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MINORITY CONTRACTORS 
  (NAMC), ATTORNEY, LAW OFFICES OF RALPH C. THOMAS III PLLC, 
  WASHINGTON, DC; MR. JOSH BONE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ELECTRI 
  INTERNATIONAL, WASHINGTON, DC, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE 
  NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION (NECA); AND DR. 
  ANNIE MECIAS-MURPHY, CO-OWNER & PRESIDENT, JA&M DEVELOPING 
    CORP., PEMBROKE PINES, FL, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE 
    ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS IN HER ROLE AS THE 
 TREASURER AND BOARD MEMBER OF THE FLORIDA FIRST COAST CHAPTER

                 STATEMENT OF SHEILA OHRENBERG

    Ms. OHRENBERG. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Ranking 
Member, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for holding 
this hearing today.
    As a small business owner and the president of Women 
Construction Owners and Executives, I appreciate your 
commitment to ensuring that all categories of small business 
owners will benefit from the major infrastructure package being 
debated.
    I am Sheila Ohrenberg, the president of Sorella Group. I 
founded the company in 2006 in my hometown of Kansas City, 
Kansas. It has grown considerably over the past 15 years to a 
full service, merit shop, carpentry company, performing private 
and public work in 23 States, including 5 significant new 
airports and additions.
    I am pleased to be representing WCOE, one of the only 
national associations representing women owners in the 
construction industry.
    Eleven women started WCOE in 1983 with a goal to help our 
members grow and prosper. We are dedicated to creating a level 
playing field for women-owned firms in the construction 
industry.
    Our membership is comprised of nonunion, union, small- and 
medium-sized companies that perform work and provide supplies 
in every aspect of construction. We are all eager to assist, 
maintain, modernize our crumbling infrastructure.
    This plan is essential to every business. The past 16 
months have been challenging for everyone, especially small 
businesses. An infusion of federal infrastructure projects 
would generate contracting opportunities for small businesses 
that would create backlog, jobs, company growth, thus improving 
our communities.
    We anticipate direct federal contracts as well as grants 
and federally assisted programs that go to State and local 
governments. These programs make up many of the set-aside and 
DBE contracts that are vital to WCOE members.
    Small businesses are absolutely necessary to our economy, 
but women-owned small businesses, minority, and veteran-owned 
businesses continue to face barriers to success. This is true 
in federal and private marketplace.
    The federal contracting programs Congress has put in place 
to provide greater opportunities for small business are still 
necessary today.
    The cost of financing, bonding, and insuring projects is 
disproportionately high for small businesses, especially women 
business owners. WCOE members share stories of many of the same 
barriers faced by women that started our organization almost 40 
years ago.
    The WOSB program 5 percent goal was implemented in 1996. 
This goal has only been met in 2015 and 2019. That is twice in 
25 years, despite the fact that approximately 13 percent of 
construction companies are women-owned.
    The 2021 CSR report details the WOSB program usage has 
increased, but the WOSB set-asides and sole-source awards are 
still not meeting the goals. I think we can do better.
    We can create incentives to meet the goals and consequences 
for never meeting them. We can make up for the 23 years that we 
missed the goals by increasing the statutory goals above 5 
percent for WOSBs.
    We can require more transparency through the SBA 
Procurement Scorecard by including how many WOSB programs are 
awarded, along with the value of the contracts by each agency, 
better coordination of agency resources for women business 
owners. And this can be done by including the bill being 
introduced next week by Representative Meng. This will ensure 
the Interagency Committee on Women's Business Enterprises meets 
regularly.
    A bold infrastructure package will be a great vehicle to 
increase contracting opportunities for disadvantaged businesses 
for whom the playing field is not yet level. The robust funding 
and the current programs alone are just not enough. We need to 
protect the stability of our small businesses.
    WCOE works alongside other construction industry coalitions 
for legislation contracting reform. We need to ensure payment 
protections for all construction projects by requiring payment 
and performance bonds, including private-public partnerships.
    We need to pass House bill 2949, the legislation would 
exclude the threshold for construction contracts that must be 
bonded under the Miller Act.
    Change order reform is necessary. Did you know that change 
orders do not typically get paid till the completion of the 
project? It is costly and can be detrimental to small 
businesses.
    These programs should not be viewed as the cost of doing 
business. They should not be viewed as a burden. And the 
program should be designed to educate, train, and advance women 
that were willing to take the leap into business ownership and 
the American Dream.
    WCOE hopes to continue to work with you to support future 
generations of women business owners.
    I appreciate your time.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Ms. Ohrenberg. We 
appreciate your time, and we will obviously be getting back to 
you with questions, comments, and observations in just a 
moment.
    The Chair would like to recognize Mr. Thomas now for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Thomas, feel free to proceed.

                 STATEMENT OF RALPH THOMAS III

    Mr. THOMAS. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and other 
ladies and gentleman of the Committee.
    And, Mr. Chair, it is nice to see you again. It seems like 
decades ago I testified before other Committees and 
Subcommittees that you Chaired, so welcome back.
    Chairman MFUME. [Inaudible.]
    Mr. THOMAS. My name is--and my name is still Ralph C. 
Thomas III, and I am testifying today on behalf of the National 
Association of Minority Contractors. We are a group that was 
formed in 1969, and that makes us 52 years old and the oldest 
trade association representing minority contractors in the U.S. 
We have chapters and affiliates all over the country, and we 
represent the interests of, not only our members, but the 
100,000 minority contractors across the United States right 
now.
    Now, the inclusion of minority contractors or DBEs, 
disadvantaged business enterprises, in the rebuilding of 
America's infrastructure is particularly important to ensuring 
that America is operating at the full, productive capacity of 
its citizenry. Needless to say, NAMC and minority contractors 
look very much forward to playing a significant role in the 
upgrading of this nation's infrastructure.
    Now, my full testimony is already in the record, so I am 
not going to repeat that, but I will summarize very quickly 
some of the topics that we are interested in and why we are 
interested in it.
    First of all, we really are interested in this new plan 
because of the benefits that it offers minority contractors. 
The federal infusion of funds--of new funds to build roads, 
bridges, highways, airways, et cetera, minority contractors are 
already involved in that. That is what we do, but we need more 
of it. We need to build our capital base so that we can do 
more.
    We have a vehicle right now through the U.S. Department of 
Transportation, the DBE Program, the Disadvantaged Business 
Enterprise Program, which requires 10 percent of the 
transportation project funds to be expended with disadvantaged 
business enterprises.
    In order to make this new capital infusion work, we have 
got to do better in the program. Right now, 23 of the 50 States 
are not meeting the 10 percent floor, and we need--but we are 
very encouraged by the comments of Secretary Buttigieg.
    In a recent hearing that he testified in, he said he is 
going to make this a much more robust program, that he is going 
to make it a priority, and he is going to ensure that 
contractors, disadvantaged businesses, can do a wider range of 
contracts.
    Now, we are also interested in the workforce part of this 
infrastructure plan. The DOT had a workforce element in it in 
2017, but for 2018, it doesn't. And that has hurt us. It is 
said that for every billion dollars that DOT spends on 
workforce development, that 13,000 jobs are created. So we are 
interested in that.
    We think that the impact of a successful program--a 
successful DBE program that will get us more capital, will be 
good for expanding, first of all, doing better--we can hire 
better people. We can make more investments on technology and 
equipment. We can hire better people, and that has so much of a 
social impact in terms of a happier group of people. You know, 
we can hire more people.
    So we look forward to working closely with, not only the 
DOT and the Secretary, but also with this Committee to hammer 
out any kinks that we see in implementing DBE inclusion in this 
new infrastructure plan.
    Thank you.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas. And we 
appreciate your testimony, and we recognize that there is a 
fuller set of that in the remarks that you submitted, to be 
revised and extended.
    But let me just say, it is good to see you also. It has 
been many, many years. And when you say it seems like decades, 
it is because it was decades. It was the late eighties and the 
early nineties that you would come before this Committee and 
others and give testimony, and I was happy to be one of the 
Chairpersons and happy always to receive it. Thank you, sir, 
very much for your remarks.
    I would like to now turn and yield to Mr. Bone, who has 
been patiently waiting.
    Mr. Bone, you are recognized for 5 minutes, and you may 
feel free to proceed.

                     STATEMENT OF JOSH BONE

    Mr. BONE. Thank you, Chairman Mfume and Ranking Member 
Salazar, the Members of the Subcommittee, for inviting me to 
testify on behalf of ELECTRI International and the Electrical 
Contractors Association, NECA. We greatly appreciate the 
opportunity to submit a statement for the record to the 
Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure.
    My name is Josh Bone. I am the executive director of 
ELECTRI International. ELECTRI is a 501(c)(3) charitable 
organization established with support from NECA. Our mission is 
to help electrical contractors, large and small, meet today's 
demands and tomorrow's challenges by transforming our 
commission research into useful education, talent-initiative 
programs, as well as practical publications.
    The work for ELECTRI is simplified by NECA's network of 
4,000 contractor members consisting of nearly 3,200 small 
businesses. NECA is the voice of a $170 billion electrical 
construction industry that brings power, light, and 
communication technologies to buildings and communities across 
the U.S.
    ELECTRI, along with NECA, recognizes the key role small 
businesses will play in any infrastructure package. It cannot 
be stated strongly enough, the infrastructure of this country 
is deteriorating. Thankfully, Congress and the current 
administration have shown a clear and urgent understanding of 
this need.
    To that end, we view the American Jobs Plan as a 
culmination of generations' worth of conversations on how to 
address our aging and lacking infrastructure. That said, this 
plan is the first step of many in moving the country forward.
    There is no question, after the volatility created by 
COVID-19 pandemic, small businesses must be prioritized by any 
infrastructure package. Across the construction industry, we 
have witnessed small contractors building their businesses 
around niche markets to be more competitive, whether it be in 
areas like the creation of microgrids, electrical vehicle 
charging stations, low-voltage technologies, or otherwise.
    Small contractors need to stay at the forefront of 
advancing technologies in order to remain competitive. Although 
this has yielded positive growth for small businesses, many 
still face what seems to be an insurmountable challenge: access 
to capital. The risks posed by lack of capital is compounded 
with negative factors, such as delayed payment practices and 
fluctuating material costs.
    First and foremost, delays in payment are rampant in the 
construction industry, especially to subcontractors. This has 
the capability of crippling small businesses that are unable to 
balance their books and anticipate exposure for upcoming 
projects. Small contractors need prompt payment support and 
enforcement when it comes to working on larger projects like 
those identified by the American Jobs Plan.
    In addition, the risk assumed by small business contractors 
cannot be understated, with many subcontractors recounting 
stories of offering their homes as collateral for various loans 
or bonding.
    The recent fluctuation in material costs has presented new 
challenges. The main concern for electrical contractors is the 
rising cost of copper, which has increased nearly 90 percent 
since this time last year.
    There is no denying that the broad federal investment 
offered by the American Jobs Plan will not stretch as far when 
construction materials cost exponentially more. To make matters 
worse, a small business contractor typically holds their 
estimated price to a contract owner for 90 days, while material 
suppliers hold that estimate to their contractors for 7 to 10 
days; in some cases, less.
    Many of our industry electrical contractors never stopped 
working throughout the pandemic. Because of this, our workforce 
demands never slowed. Our industry must hire and train over 
100,000 electricians to meet the workforce demands across the 
country.
    The gold standard for meeting this need was established 
over 70 years ago by NECA and the IBEW. The National Joint 
Apprenticeship Training Program, the NJATC, today invests over 
$100 million annually and receives no direct federal funding.
    The program's rigorous training methods require 8,000 hours 
of on-the-job training and 900 hours of classroom time, and 
this is what it takes to create a qualified and capable 
journeyperson.
    In my time at ELECTRI, I have had the pleasure to travel 
this country and meet the small business owners employing the 
men and women of the electrical construction industry who 
should, and hopefully will, be tasked with rebuilding this 
nation.
    In the face of constant risk, competition, and an 
overwhelming workforce need, they come to work every day, 
striving to succeed. Efforts like the American Jobs Plan and 
others proposed by Congress offer these businesses a promising 
future.
    On behalf of ELECTRI International and NECA, I want to 
thank you again for the opportunity to testify at this very 
important hearing. I applaud the Committee's unwavering efforts 
to support and advocate for small businesses across the 
country.
    Thank you.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, sir.
    I am going to ask staff to do not mute me unless I mute 
myself, because trying to find the unmute button can be 
problematic, obviously, from time to time.
    I am going to thank again and welcome Mrs. Mecias-Murphy 
for being with us. I know the Ranking Member properly 
introduced her, but I want to thank her.
    It is always hard being the caboose on a train, but it is 
your time, and we hope that you will proceed accordingly. You 
are recognized for the next 5 minutes. Go right ahead.

                STATEMENT OF ANNIE MECIAS-MURPHY

    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Chairman Mfume, Ranking Member Salazar, 
and Members of the U.S. House Small Business Subcommittee on 
Contracting and Infrastructure, thank you so much for holding 
this hearing on the utilization of small contractors in the 
infrastructure plan and inviting me to be with you today.
    My name is Dr. Annie Mecias-Murphy, and I am the co-owner 
and president of JA&M Developing Corp. We are a family-owned 
construction business and contractor, performing work in the 
private and public sectors, serving the south Florida market. 
JA&M is a small- and women-owned business with 26 full-time 
employees.
    I am testifying today on behalf of the Associated Builders 
and Contractors, a national construction industry trade 
association established in 1950, that represents more than 
21,000 members across the country.
    I am currently on the ABC Florida East Coast Chapter board 
of directors, serving as the treasurer.
    It is because of the construction industry that I am able 
to be here to share my story with you today. I was born to 
immigrant parents who chose to flee religious and political 
persecution by the Cuban Government just 90 miles from Florida. 
It is because of their bravery and a belief in greater freedom 
that I have the opportunities I do in this country, to own and 
operate a business in the construction industry.
    When my father came to this country in 1969, he entered the 
construction workforce with nothing except the clothes on his 
back. Construction was part of our daily lives while I was 
growing up.
    While my initial focus was a career in education, 
eventually earning my doctorate in philosophy and working in 
the teaching and counseling field for close to 15 years, I 
assisted my father with his construction company. However, it 
wasn't until 2005 that my siblings and I founded JA&M. It was 
then that our family came together to work full time in the 
construction industry.
    Today, I would like to share how a significant investment 
in America's infrastructure would impact my small business and 
other businesses like mine in the construction industry.
    I also would like to provide a word of caution to the 
Subcommittee and to urge Congress to avoid enacting restrictive 
policies referenced President Biden's American Jobs Plan, like 
the Protecting the Right to Organize, or the PRO Act; 
government-mandated project labor agreements, or PLAs; and just 
a one-size-fits-all approach to our workforce development. The 
inclusion of these policies and others like them would 
significantly limit the success of any potential infrastructure 
bill, as they would prevent qualified merit shop contractors 
from participating in rebuilding their communities.
    Finally, I would also like to highlight the negative impact 
that proposed tax increases from the majority in Congress and 
the White House would have on small- and family-owned 
businesses.
    As a small business in the construction industry, an 
ongoing challenge that we have is hiring the skilled workforce 
we need to be competitive. And we are not alone, as there are 
hundreds of thousands of open construction jobs right now.
    Any infrastructure proposal should make it easier for 
private employers to train tomorrow's construction workforce 
through a variety of workforce development options, including 
industry-tested and recognized craft training programs and 
registered apprenticeship models.
    Unfortunately, President Biden's American Jobs Plan urges 
Congress to tie infrastructure investments funded under this 
plan to the restrictive policies that I referenced before, 
which would limit the pipeline of workers entering the 
industry.
    I would call on Congress to reject these policies as the 
current shortage of workers would only be exasperated by an 
increase in the money spent on infrastructure. Importantly, 
Congress must realize that most small businesses in the 
construction industry are not signatory to a construction 
union.
    These policies are likely to increase costs, reduce job 
creation, decrease the number of infrastructure projects, and 
discourage the merit shop construction industry and their 
skilled local workforce from competing for taxpayer-funded 
construction projects.
    I urge Congress to consider investing in America's 
infrastructure and ensuring that small construction businesses 
are not excluded from the competitive bidding process for 
federal infrastructure projects.
    While I do appreciate the conversation taking place and a 
public commitment to infrastructure improvements, it is my 
understanding that only a small percentage of the funds in the 
American Jobs Plan are allocated toward the construction of 
physical infrastructure.
    The construction industry can help lead America's economic 
resurgence, and Congress should not allow this to become a 
missed opportunity.
    So in conclusion, construction is an industry that gave my 
family its start. It was our shining light of opportunity, and 
continues to provide for my family and my employees.
    It has been an industry that has allowed us also to give 
back, to improve the life of others, and to become a supporting 
role in our local community. The industry has responded to the 
skilled work shortage by increasing wage rates and improving 
benefit packages.
    In Florida, we are fortunate to participate in partnerships 
between the Associated Builders and Contractors and groups like 
the Boys and Girls Clubs where we can speak to students about 
the benefits of a career in construction.
    Through an all-of-the-above approach to pre-apprenticeship 
and apprenticeship programs, we continue to work to expand the 
numbers of people educated and upskilled in the trades.
    The American Dream and construction industry, they go 
together. It is through construction that we can provide for 
our family, create jobs for workers, and give back to our 
communities.
    If enacted, I cannot imagine what this plan would mean for 
all the families that depend on JA&M, let alone all the 
millions of families around the country that depend on small 
business for their survival.
    I plead with you to help us preserve the construction 
industry for the next generation. Without you, there may not be 
a future for countless potential craft professionals.
    I thank you for your time and consideration of this 
testimony as a representation of a small, merit shop 
contractor, and I look forward to answering any questions you 
may have.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much, Mrs. Mecias-Murphy. I 
appreciate your comments. And the fact that we have divergent 
views on this bill that all of us are looking forward hopefully 
to the same bright future, a future with good results, is what 
drives this committee.
    This is really sausage-making in the process, so it is not 
pretty, but we will find a way to make the sausage hopefully, 
eventually, and to deliver something very important on 
infrastructure.
    I want to thank all of you who have shared your time with 
us. And I want to begin the questioning by recognizing myself 
for 5 minutes.
    And I would like to start with Ms. Ohrenberg. I read in 
your testimony that a single million dollar contract is 
different from 40 $25,000 contracts. Now, they both equate to 
the same dollar amount.
    My assumption is, and I hope you can expand on this, that 
there are inherent benefits in wielding million dollar 
contracts for small businesses that sometimes people in the 
larger society may not understand and what that does to enhance 
the growth of a small business, as opposed to 40 $25,000 
contracts that you referenced.
    Ms. OHRENBERG. Correct. So one single project is going to 
require, from an internal office staff, a project manager. So 
if you break those all up into 40 different contracts, you have 
to have 40 different project managers.
    It takes as much resources, from an office perspective, to 
manage one $25,000 project as it does a million dollar project, 
from an accounting, from project management, superintendents. 
So if we have to divide our staff up against 40 jobs instead of 
just one job, then we have to have 40 times more staff, and 
that is very difficult for a small business to be able to staff 
that many types of projects.
    Chairman MFUME. And does it enhance bonding requirements? 
Does it create, in addition to that, a better perception with 
primes or with the government?
    I am just trying to get to the heart of understanding all 
of it. I do recognize the need to hire a bunch of different 
people for project management, but are there some inherent 
benefits there also?
    Ms. OHRENBERG. A $25,000 project is not likely going to 
require a bond, but a larger one would. So you would be 
building your bonding capacity by having larger projects.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you.
    And, Mr. Thomas, if I can come to you, I want to go 
specifically to Amtrak and to kind of get your experience that 
you have had representing contracting opportunities with 
Amtrak. They are set to get quite a bit of support under this 
program. Can you talk about that for just a moment?
    Mr. THOMAS. [Inaudible.]
    Chairman MFUME. I think you are muted.
    Mr. THOMAS. Thank you. Thank you. So I said all that for 
nothing. No. Oh, well.
    What I mean is, you know, I was executive director of this 
organization in the eighties, in 1985. And there was a big, big 
project with Amtrak, $2.2 billion to our project, and we had 
DBEs on the contract, a lot of our members. And a study was 
done to test the effectiveness, and, you know, it was a great 
report. It was documented that we performed within budget and 
on time. The goal was 15 percent. The actual action was 17.8 
percent. We got very good reviews, and that is what you can do 
when you have the leadership.
    The leadership at the time of Amtrak and DOT, they were 
committed to the project, and it did well. The excuses like, 
``we can't find them,'' was just not made available. And so if 
we can have that same kind of commitment today, I think we can 
have the same results.
    Chairman MFUME. So was the ``we can't find them'' statement 
meaning, we can't find minority contractors qualified?
    Mr. THOMAS. Exactly. Well, it is the same excuse that we 
have heard since I have been involved in the business, and it 
is not something that can't be resolved. You know, they used to 
do the same thing at NASA. You know, at NASA, it is the most 
technological agency that there is probably in the world. And 
we also got those excuses until we came up with a solution that 
worked for a while.
    We would measure--we would get the needs of the prime 
contractors, what they said they needed, and we would send them 
to our list of contractors, of small, disadvantaged business 
contractors. And they would send their qualifications to these 
prime contractors in the form that they ask it to be presented, 
and that resolved that problem right away.
    At one point for one project, they told us to stop sending 
them, you know, so----
    Chairman MFUME. Okay.
    Mr. THOMAS.--so they are there. You can--you know, if you 
do it right, you know, you will get the right person.
    Chairman MFUME. Okay. Maybe we can come back to that. My 
time has expired.
    Mr. Bone and Mrs. Murphy, perhaps in the second round, I 
will have an opportunity to pose a question to both of you. But 
right now, I am going to yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. 
Salazar of Florida, who is recognized now for 5 minutes.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I am 
very happy that you are willing to invite the other side of the 
aisle, the minority party, to create the sausage. So we really 
want to make it big, fat, and good for everybody to eat.
    Chairman MFUME. Okay.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So I wanted to, first of all, recognize Mrs. 
Mecias and thank you once again for being here with us. I have 
a couple of questions, and I also, within my 5 minutes, I would 
like to ask the other witnesses or the other guests.
    You know, Mrs. Mecias, that the Biden administration is 
proposing to favor unionized workers over nonunionized workers. 
In other words, the people that are not part of a union could 
be discriminated by people like you in the construction 
industry.
    So I would like you to explain to us, give me an example, 
what would this look like for a small business entrepreneur, 
minority-oriented company like yours. What would this look like 
if this part of the provision were to be accepted?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative Salazar. It 
pretty--what it does to my company, in particular, and a lot of 
small businesses, it basically completely takes us out from 
being able to bid, from the opportunities to be able to bid on 
any one of these projects. Most than 80 percent of the 
workforce is nonunion. We are a merit shop company, and 
therefore, we wouldn't even qualify at all.
    Ms. SALAZAR. That bad?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes.
    Ms. SALAZAR. All right. Now, what about the other side? You 
know that your company is a very good example for what you 
explained to us the other day, that under the Tax Cuts and Jobs 
Act, that truly helped people like you and your employees, and 
one of them, you were explaining to us, that was able to 
purchase their first home because of the extra cash in their 
pocket, thanks to that law.
    Now, if we see the opposite happening and you see, as you 
mentioned in your statements, that there is the possibility of 
taxes increasing, give me, once again, a scenario, what would 
that look like? What would that be--what type of effect will 
that have in a small business, minority owner, entrepreneur 
like you are?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So, first of all, I would just like to 
explain, the excitement that comes across my desk when I get an 
employee verification form, which has not just been one, it has 
been close to four employees that have purchased their first 
home, and that to us is just super exciting.
    Ms. SALAZAR. That is the American Dream.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes, yes. What would--I mean, we have 
been able to give health insurance benefits and 401 benefits 
for the first time since our company opened. We weren't able to 
do that before. And actually give higher bonuses.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Okay.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. If this tax increase were to occur, we 
most likely would have to let go some of our employees, and I 
am not sure if we would be able to offer the incentives that 
they so well deserve if----
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you. I am going to cut you off because I 
want to--we got your answer. But I want to go to Ms. Sheila and 
Mr. Ralph Thomas.
    Just briefly, we sponsored, along with other Members of the 
Committee, a bill, H.R. 3065, the Expanding Contracting 
Opportunities for Small Business Act. And this bipartisan 
bill--and I am very proud to be part of it--would praise the 
maximum threshold for sole source from $5 million to $8 million 
for general contracts and from $7 million to $10 million for 
manufacturing contracts. What do you think about this, this 
initiative?
    Mr. THOMAS. Are you addressing me first?
    Ms. SALAZAR. Yes, sir, absolutely. We have 45 seconds. You 
can have it all.
    Mr. THOMAS. Okay. Well--so, well, that--well, a lot of the 
smaller businesses would love that, you know, in terms of 
because it would create more opportunities. If you make the 
sole source higher, then that means there will be more 
competition. So the smaller companies would like that as well 
as the--you know, we have a problem with manufacturing 
businesses, but, you know, in terms of--there is a shortage of 
them. But for those that exist, I am sure they would prefer the 
ability to do more work. And the higher the sole source limit 
is, then they can compete for more projects.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you.
    I yield back. My time is up. I will talk to you later on 
today. I have a couple of other questions, but my time is up.
    Yield back to you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman MFUME. [Inaudible.]
    Ms. NEWMAN. Mr. Chairman, I think you are on mute.
    Chairman MFUME. Okay. Thank you.
    I am going to make my second request to staff, do not mute 
me. Allow me to mute and unmute myself. It is hard sometimes 
locating the button I need. I don't know if I can be any 
clearer than that.
    Thank you very much for yielding back, Ms. Salazar.
    The Chair would like to recognize the distinguished 
gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms. Newman, to proceed for the next 
5 minutes. Go right ahead, please.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Well, thank you, Chairman Mfume, and thank you, 
Ranking Member Salazar. Good to see everybody today. I hope 
everybody is enjoying the summer.
    I thought I would start by congratulating everyone, all of 
our guests. You have all been through a heck of a year and 
really came out on top, so congratulations.
    Mrs. Mecias-Murphy, I have run a couple small businesses, 
so God bless, and thank you for employing folks. And we all 
have had challenges but excited to move forward.
    I did want to correct the record on a couple comments that 
were made. So I sit on the T&I Committee, and I am from the 
labor movement. I am a former small business owner, ran a 
couple of companies, as well as was a management consultant to 
both Fortune 500 companies down to sole proprietor, so the 
whole spectrum of folks, right, and got in the muck of it with 
process and ops and facilities and on and on and on.
    So, with all that, I just wanted to come back to you. At 
4:15 this morning, we finished the Surface Transportation Act, 
which is separate from the American Jobs Act.
    So I wanted to tell you--Annie, Sheila, Ralph, and Josh--
that we have a robust, over $500 billion plus act that is 
separate from the American Jobs Act, which will include fixing 
bridges, fixing roads, and making sure that housing goes up 
well, and that things are funded across our nation that are 
civic infrastructure projects. So look forward to that and 
enjoying all of that. I am excited the jobs that that will 
produce.
    Now, the American Families Act, let's just do a quick fact-
check on that, because we just got a fact sheet on that, so why 
don't we just share a little bit about that.
    So in the American Jobs Act, it includes housing, as well 
as transit agencies, rail, fixing roads and bridges, civic 
infrastructure, retrograde housing, and on and on and on. So it 
is an infrastructure bill, largely, and a jobs bill. I just 
wanted to clear that up for everybody.
    So moving on, also with regard to the PRO Act, so given 
that I have been actively involved in 30 years and have worked 
with over 50 municipalities in this nation, around labor 
movements, I just want to assure you, Mrs. Mecias-Murphy, that 
in no town of those 50 did we have any negativity attached to 
PLAs and that kind of thing. In fact, the exact opposite 
happened.
    In right-to-work--in those 33 right-to-work--or States, 
rather, actually, the health incomes go down, incomes go down, 
the overall income and tax income in a State goes down in all 
33. So I just wanted to clear that up for everybody.
    Now, Ralph, I have a couple questions for you. I am very 
excited about what you said. I love workforce training. So 
wanted to find out, can you share--by the way, congratulations 
on 52 years, way to go. Can you share a little bit about what 
would be helpful to you in terms of workforce training and 
development immediately to help your organization?
    I loved your NASA analogy, and I am very well aware of how 
that program works, so tell us more about what you would like 
to see happen.
    Mr. THOMAS. [Inaudible.]
    Ms. NEWMAN. Ooh, you are on mute, Mr. Thomas.
    Mr. THOMAS. Okay. How is that?
    Ms. NEWMAN. Great.
    Mr. THOMAS. Yes, yes. Well, the first thing has already 
happened. I mean, what we see--I don't know if this is in the 
program that you just agreed to----
    Ms. NEWMAN. Yeah.
    Mr. THOMAS.--but we were happy to see projected more funds 
for workforce development. Because we have to draw upon--and we 
have to have it be diverse, because those are the employees 
that we are dependent upon to draw from. And where there is no 
move toward workforce development--and I don't think there has 
been in DOT since 2017 when it wasn't re-funded----
    Ms. NEWMAN. Yep.
    Mr. THOMAS.--that leaves us in a bind, because where are we 
going to get the people from, you know. And so we would like to 
see that. We would like to always be involved in that, in terms 
of apprenticeships, in terms of--we like to be involved in the 
ground floor, so that we can determine, you know, what the 
fields are that are going to be developed so that we can, you 
know, get our folks into those programs, into those programs 
and graduated from those programs. I mean, because that 
provides the best--workforce development provides the best 
training that I am aware of, so----
    Ms. NEWMAN. We are at the end of our time. And Mr. Mfume, 
if I may at this time at the end, I would love a couple more 
questions if you have time. Thank you.
    And I yield back.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. 
Gentlewoman yields back.
    The Chair would like to recognize the distinguished 
gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Hagedorn.
    Mr. HAGEDORN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And I know 
it is not your decision, but I think we have a solution to this 
mute/unmute issue and it is, let's start meeting in person, 
again, and doing our job in Washington in our Committee room. 
You know, we are watching NHL and NBA games played indoors with 
10-, 20,000 people. I think we can squeeze 30 or 40 into a 
Committee room and do our job in person. That is just my 
opinion.
    Of course, I support infrastructure--roads, bridges, locks, 
dams, trucks, rail, and pipelines. And I think, actually, the 
majority might have to explain to us how they are for 
infrastructure, but they want to shut down things like Keystone 
Pipeline. But that is very important to our district in 
southern Minnesota, infrastructure. I am all for it. We have 
farmers that need to move their grain. We have the Mayo clinic 
and other institutions of medicine that receive samples and 
tissues from all around the world every day. Small businesses 
and manufacturers, of course, depend upon infrastructure and 
transportation to do their businesses and, hopefully, we can 
get together and have a bipartisan bill in order to focus on 
those types of things.
    So Dr. Mecias-Murphy, I am going to throw out a couple of 
ideas about how we can have some good government policies 
moving forward, and maybe you can address them. One is the in 
the area of the labor shortage. Some Members of Congress in my 
State, including Representatives Emmer, Stauber, Fischbach, and 
myself have written Governor Walz and said, you need to forego 
that extra $300 a week federal unemployment compensation and 
get back to regular order when someone doesn't seek work or 
they refuse work outright, they lose their benefits. They lose 
that compensation. You need to push them into the workforce. 
That is the first idea.
    The second is, a bill that I have introduced, the American 
Workforce Empowerment Act, H.R. 2691, which would enable 
families to use 529 savings accounts for people not just to go 
to 4-year college, but also go to vocational school and get 
certificates, go do those programs, and get into the trades and 
purchase equipment and tools and things like that which would 
be necessary. We think that would be good to help our skilled 
workforce.
    What are your thoughts about those two ideas?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So you have just hit an area aside from 
construction that is just something that I am super passionate 
about. Our involvement and our partnership with the Boys and 
Girls Clubs and ABC allows us to work on apprenticeship level 
because, as you know, kids in middle school and high school, 
they are not always being said, Hey, the trades are a viable 
option. It is something that can really work for you and can 
give you a good living. It is a good first option.
    So what we have been able to do is able to go into the Boys 
and Girls Club, have different trades, different member 
companies from ABC go in there and be able to show and expose 
the students. I know not everybody has had the privilege to be 
able to see on a daily basis growing up what the construction 
industry is like, but going into these clubs and working with 
the middle and high school students and being able to expose 
them, taking them on field trips, providing internships for 
them has allotted exposure to them.
    And over the last couple of years, there has actually been 
close to 40 students that have graduated, and have actually 
been hired with some of our member companies. An example, 
actually, is a crane company. An 18-year-old just to start 
training was paid $20 an hour. And that is just to start 
training. And as they went up, a crane operator can make high 
as $30, $40 an hour, depending on their experience.
    So anything that is going to help that aspect, especially 
with the pre-apprenticeship, it is a little bit longer piece. 
But we have also extended it to the family, to the parents of 
these kids that may not have jobs that could actually start on 
the labor level, and labor level starts at the $15 an hour.
    Mr. HAGEDORN. That is great. I have to reclaim my time----
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So sorry about that.
    Mr. HAGEDORN.--and I appreciate that very much what you are 
doing. I would also like to point out that we talked a little 
bit about--the witnesses did--about material cost and copper 
was mentioned. And I think, you know, one of the things that 
goes on, we are driving up the cost of things because they are 
in short supply, because the environmentalists, extremists 
won't let us go and get the copper and things like that in 
America.
    In Congressman Stauber's district, he is on this call right 
now, up in northern Minnesota, they have a large supply of the 
nickel and copper for the United States right up there, but he 
is having a hard time, you know, getting through and getting 
those mines open.
    So I just want to commend Congressman Stauber for fighting 
for his constituents and getting mining in America going. I 
certainly support you, Congressman Stauber, every step of the 
way. O thank you for what you are doing.
    I yield back.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields 
back.
    The Chair recognizes, ironically, Mr. Stauber, for the next 
5 minutes. Feel free to proceed. Thank you.
    Mr. STAUBER. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. And there are 
times I have trouble with my mute button too, so if we can be 
in the same class. I appreciate Mr. Chair and our Ranking 
Member for holding this important meeting. I also want to thank 
the witnesses for being part of the discussion. Your success 
and your conversations are very vital to all of us as we craft 
good legislation.
    Line 3 is a 340-mile pipeline replacement taking place in 
northern Minnesota. Construction of the new Line 3 will not 
only help in our efforts for energy independence, but will 
supply countless jobs to small contractors in an area desperate 
for economic development and modernize our energy 
infrastructure for the future.
    This project should be celebrated, yet just this week, 
thousands of dangerous protesters, led by Democrat Party 
stalwarts like Jane Fonda, are being bussed in from Hollywood 
and other coastal elite cities and are causing harm to small 
contractors seeking to simply do their jobs. In fact, nearly 50 
union workers had to be evacuated from their work site, 
including employees of the entire Native American-owned and 
operated pipeline contractor Gordon Construction.
    Dr. Mecias-Murphy, could you describe the danger and damage 
that protesters would pose to your construction business if 
they showed up to your sites and chained themselves to 
equipment, punctured tires, damaged windshields, and other 
equipment? What would that do to your small business?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative Stauber, for 
that question.
    First of all, when I read about that, I--it just truly 
really surged in me just so much concern, and my heart really 
went out to that business. If that would have happened to our 
business, first of all, with safety being such an important and 
critical factor that for our employees and for everyone around 
us, the first thing, obviously, that would have come to mind is 
the concern for safety by these protesters having gone in, 
having trespassed, having damaged property, and having tied 
themselves to this equipment. But putting that piece aside to a 
small business, I think folks might not realize that sometimes 
a day of delay or just that--that the woman is saying, Oh, it 
is just a day; it is not a big deal. In the construction 
industry with so many overlapping pieces and parts of the 
puzzle, that can delay you 2 weeks, 4 weeks. And what that 
does, especially for a small business, is that in your cash 
flow, you are having to pay for all these different things, 
putting them up to speed to try to have them work where they 
need to be back to the time that you lost.
    And, then, not only that, put aside the small business 
piece, you have workers that can't go into work. You have then 
workers who can't get paid because they aren't working. Their 
families aren't getting fed or paying their bills. You have 
done a domino effect where maybe folks have been trying to 
prove a point. What they have actually done is hurt the people 
that they are saying that they are trying to help. They are 
affecting families and communities.
    Mr. STAUBER. So what I hear you saying is, it is 
devastating for the small company; it is devastating for the 
workers; it is devastating for the families, and it is 
devastating for the communities?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Absolutely. Yes, sir.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. Thank you. To me it is actually 
laughable to me that we are here today to discuss Joe Biden's 
infrastructure plan, and how it will, quote, help small 
contractors. President Biden and his administration canceled 
thousands of jobs already on the Keystone XL Pipeline earlier 
this year, in fact, within 5 hours of his inauguration.
    It is the actions of this administration that empowers 
these activists currently doing damage in my district and 
others throughout the country.
    If President Biden wants to demonstrate that he is serious 
about America's infrastructure future, he will call on these 
activists to stop their protesting at once so that our small 
contractors can get back to work.
    And I yield back.
    Chairman MFUME. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair is deciding to do a second round and unless we 
are joined by other members, it should probably go faster than 
the first round, but I would like to begin and recognize myself 
for 5 minutes and go to Mr. Bone.
    Mr. Bone, do recruitment strategies change based on the 
segment of the population that you are trying to attract? And I 
appreciate all the work that you are doing with ELECTRI. Can 
you tell us what strategies would you recommend in this bill as 
it goes forward to recruit men--women, I should say, and 
minorities at a better and higher rate than we have previously 
done?
    Mr. BONE. Absolutely. Thank you, Chairman Mfume. Yes, to be 
successful, you have to use different methods to recruit. For 
me, I have had the privilege in my career to work more closely 
with minorities and women in construction as a construction 
technologist. A lot of the thought leaders in the industry that 
have adopted new technologies have had that opportunity in our 
industry. So--and today, one of the things I have found for 
women in the industry, is they bring a lot of great skill sets, 
and there is a lot of new technologies that enable them and 
empower them to work in this industry. I think there is a lot 
of misconceptions around the fact that this industry is a male-
driven industry. And we need to start at early ages educating 
young girls in middle school, high school, and even in the 
community and technical colleges, that this industry is 
changing. We are adopting technology.
    What once was a very strenuous job today with exoskeletons 
and equipment, and moving work off-site looks more like a 
manufacturing floor today on any--for a lot of these companies. 
So we are doing a lot more off-site construction to help us 
deliver projects on time and within budget.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Mr. Bone. And no matter what 
kind of a bill we come up with, the electrical construction 
industry is going to be significantly impacted.
    Mr. BONE. Absolutely.
    Chairman MFUME. Can you take a minute to talk about the 
importance of unions in electrical construction and throughout 
that industry?
    Mr. BONE. Yes. Now, ELECTRI is not affiliated with any 
unions, but our friends at NECA have worked closely with IBEW 
labor partners for over a 100 years without a single strike. So 
NECA and our contractors take great pride in the skill level 
and commitment of the workforce that we bring to the table.
    I just, last week, was in Jacksonville, Florida, visiting a 
JTC that had opened up a new systems integrator lab that takes 
these new technologies, provides hands-on training installing 
new technologies like that are linked to software that connect 
sensors and intelligent equipment that can help us invest in 
infrastructure that is more sustainable, and it creates new 
types of skills and jobs that are--that we can use for many 
years going forward.
    So it makes our--for small businesses that get involved 
with this it provides an opportunity for them to create jobs 
that have long-lasting impact to their small businesses.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you, sir.
    And Mr. Thomas, I want to slightly change the conversation 
and go from the electrical industry back over to 
transportation. We don't know what is going to eventually come 
out of this Committee, out of this Congress, but we hope that 
we are going to have a bill, and whatever that bill is, I would 
like for you, based on your experience and counseling in 
serving small firms across the country, what is, in your 
opinion, the biggest obstacle going forward that has to be 
addressed in that bill to increase participation by minorities 
in transportation projects.
    Mr. THOMAS. Yes. We have to take a stronger approach to 
compliance and enforcement. As I said, we have a 10 percent 
goal floor for all the States, and 23 percent are not meeting 
it. Many of them ask for waivers and, you know, whatnot, and, 
you know, by saying they are not there. What we need to do is 
find something that, you know--I think a lot of organizations 
like those here should be funded, to some extent, for the 
purpose of identifying eligible small contractors, whether they 
be minority, or women, or otherwise disadvantaged, to identify 
them for the prime contractors and the agencies.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you.
    Mr. THOMAS. Thank you.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you, Mr. Thomas. I am almost at the 
end of my time.
    I do want to get over to Ms. Mecias-Murphy one more time 
and ask, what role do you think, Ms. Murphy, that the SBA 
contracting programs and DBE Program ought to play now as we 
obviously move toward infrastructure, but also, as we see 
businesses trying to recover from this year-long pandemic? Any 
thoughts on those lines?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. From hearing the conversations, I would 
say that it is just making sure that whatever laws are in place 
and goals, that they are followed.
    Chairman MFUME. Okay. I appreciate it. At some point in 
time, maybe not here, but later, I would like to get all of you 
to comment on the Prompt Payment Act and what prompt payment 
has done, and is not doing with respect to small businesses, 
but my time is expired.
    So let me, again, recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. 
Salazar, of Florida.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I think my 
next question is for Mr. Bone. I was following your testimony, 
and I am also very concerned, as you are, about the delays in 
payments to subcontractors. I mean, if you don't get the money, 
you may go under in a month or two. And I would like for you to 
expand a little bit more on your suggestion regarding sending 
payment notices and getting paid on time, if you can expand on 
that a little bit further.
    Mr. BONE. Absolutely. Capital is king in the construction 
industry. It is how businesses survive, and small contractors 
have limited amounts of capital. And what we have to ensure 
that when you are a sub to a sub to a sub, and that happens 
very frequently in these flow down policies on the larger 
projects that it becomes even tougher to get paid.
    So the ability to fund your business and work off that 
capital to pay your people is extremely tough for the smaller 
businesses that flow down in that work. So the larger contracts 
that do sub out to these small arsenal of contractors, it makes 
it much tougher for them.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So what do you suggest? What can we do in 
order to help that sub of the sub of the sub, the one that has 
the small business, entrepreneur that has three employees and 
needs that money right away?
    Mr. BONE. We need to have opportunities to work with 
contracts directly with those that are paying. So that it 
doesn't have to go through the process of a general contractor 
through the sub and working back up through that flow. 
Representative Salazar, that is the challenge that we face. So 
if it is--if we are waiting on pay if paid or paid when paid, 
that language is what impacts our small contractors more than 
anything else. We need to have the ability, once we can prove 
we have done the work in a fair way, that the contracts can 
ensure that our small contractors are being paid promptly.
    Ms. SALAZAR. And I would like to ask the same question to 
Ms. Mecias. Just give me a scenario, an anecdote, where you 
have felt exactly what Mr. Bone is describing?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Absolutely. You have the--especially on 
federal contracts, you have a paid when paid clause and 
sometimes it is 60, 90, 120 days. And for a small business, 
that is completely detrimental. You have--I think in Florida, 
the sunshine--there is Prompt Payment Act and the whole piece 
is that you get paid promptly, but it is more of a theory than 
really a practice.
    Ms. SALAZAR. A reality. Uh-huh. So, in which way Congress 
could help that very small business owner get paid on time in a 
fair fashion, the way that it needs to be done? Because from 
what I am understanding here is that someone is taking 
advantage of the small guy. So in which way--and specifically 
minority business owners, that I am sure don't have the 
protections that the big general contractors have, so what can 
we do with the last--we have a minute and a half, so I will 
yield to you.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So I can only speak from personal 
experience and my personal experience, usually the contractors 
that I have worked with, we will get paid within 5 days of 
payment. So, it is not on that end. Unfortunately, it is on the 
whole paperwork bureaucratic component that gets stuck up on 
that level.
    Again, I am not at the time one with all the answers, but 
probably a quicker way of going through those leaps and hurdles 
and trying to be a little bit more considering the small 
business, and the businesses and realizing that the quicker 
they are able to do that processing, and be conscientious of 
that, and having a certain timeline to do that, realize how big 
it really affects small businesses. And that really draws up 
the cost, because any federal project that you know you are 
going to bid, you realize that you have that in the back of 
your mind, that I am not going to get paid for 60 or 90 days. 
So it does drive up the cost to the taxpayer as well.
    Ms. SALAZAR. I see. Very good point. Thank you.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. Gentlewoman's time has 
expired.
    I want to recognize Ms. Newman, but Ms. Newman, if you 
would hold on for just a second. This whole issue of prompt 
payment, which I think Mr. Bone referenced that we should just 
follow existing laws on this, underscores an important point. 
In 1996, when the regs were written on this, enter the Prompt 
Payment Act. Any agency that fails to pay within the required 
time would be liable for the delinquent payment. So obviously 
if we know that the biggest hurdle and detriment to Black 
businesses, Latino businesses, Asian businesses, women 
businesses is the lack of access to capital and credit, prompt 
payment does play an extremely crucial role, and it is maybe 
something that the full Committee on Small Business decides to 
look at, and if not, I could try to find some way for us to be 
able to do that, because it is a law that just has to be 
enforced.
    I am going to stop my filibuster, since I am on the House 
side anyway, and yield to the distinguished gentlewoman from 
Illinois, Ms. Newman, and thank her for hanging around to the 
end.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Well, thank you for putting together this great 
conversation today, and, Chair Mfume, I will gladly volunteer 
to work with you on that topic. I am a big fan of paying people 
on time, and having it be predictable. I am seeing a thumbs up 
from my friend, Ms. Salazar. So maybe all three of us could get 
together and have a coffee over that. So look forward to that.
    Couple of things--first of all, Mr. Bone, thank you so much 
for highlighting that. I think that is critical. But this 
goes--this, actually, proves my point about PLA. So 
interestingly--this is a fun little data point--is that more 
than 80 percent of the time when there is a PLA in place, that 
it requires whoever is engaged in the party system, so whether 
there is a subcontractor, a contractor, a franchiser, whatever 
it is, it requires a very specific payment chronology and 
cadence on top of that federal law Mr. Mfume has talked about.
    So PLAs are really good at enforcing those types of things, 
particularly when there is a union involved. And, by the way, I 
might remind everybody that when you have a PLA, it doesn't 
prevent you from having nonunion help, it just requires and 
protects those that are engaged in unions, and so that they 
have better benefits and pay, et cetera, and that is safer.
    I also might add on PLA-based construction sites that more 
than 60 percent of those engagements, whether it is a GC 
contractor or PLA/GC contractor, it is usually somewhere in the 
range of 66 (ph) to 65 percent safer, there are fewer 
accidents, people are paid on time, and they tend to be not be 
overbudget, and they tend to be on-time projects. So I 
understand there is some confusion around PLAs, but it is not 
the boogie man as was suggested.
    So I guess I am going to turn it over to Ms. Mecias-Murphy 
and tell me the top three things that frustrate you about PLAs.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Sure, Representative Newman. Thank you 
for the opportunity to speak on that. I would say the biggest 
part--it is not really that we are, you know, that I am 
antiunion by any means; it is just basically that a lot of the 
mandates they are not as good. They restrict someone like a 
merit shop company to be able to bid on certain projects if 
these things aren't in place. That is number one. We just want 
fair all across the board.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Not--to this day, we are still in a 
country that is free, and, you know, we could pick whether we 
want to be part of a union or not.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Sure.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So with that being said, a high concern 
is, especially as the Representative from Minnesota had 
mentioned, and that concern, there is new possible concerns 
regarding these labor union--again, I don't want to get into 
all the weeds piece. I want to kind of stay very----
    Ms. NEWMAN. Yeah. I--just to be clear, I just need--so I 
haven't--the first reason why PLA is bad. So if you can go back 
to your first reason.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So the noncompetitive. Not being able 
to compete--being able to be on a fair playing field as far as 
it relates to this proposed bill. The second one, and with that 
is the missed opportunities. The second one is if there is a--
if there is a project and there is a protest under this new 
act, even though it may not deal with me as a subcontractor, 
those labor unions can actually go on any one of my jobs and 
actually do that as well. And that is a concern because that 
can really hurt my company personally, and those that work for 
us as well.
    Ms. NEWMAN. So you are saying that you don't want anyone to 
ever protest on any business ever?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. That is not what I said. That is not 
what I said.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Okay. I am not sure how that syncs up with your 
right to protest and your freedom of speech.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. No. I just said that that could really 
hurt our company. That is all.
    Ms. NEWMAN. But it would anybody. So any business where 
someone feels the need to protest, they have that right to do 
that, as long as they are not physically harming people. So I 
guess that is just a freedom of speech right to protest 
situation, not necessarily, no one is targeting you, in other 
words.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. So the third point is the increased 
cost that typically having unions on the job tend to have. I 
have seen that in different projects in Florida. I don't know. 
Maybe in your State, or your area, it is a little bit different 
and maybe in your experiences. But in Florida, the jobs have 
definitely gone up a lot higher by using unions. You do have a 
more limited, especially in Florida--and, again, I can only 
talk about Florida. It is a right-to-work State. More than 80 
percent of the workers are nonunion, so there is more 
competitive, and it does allow to have better pricing; 
otherwise, when you have the PLAs and those agreements, there 
are certain amounts that are required.
    So that is all I am saying as----
    Ms. NEWMAN. Okay. I just want to remind, for the record, 
that right-to-work States, all 33 States, health outcomes are 
much far worse, lower incomes overall, and lower wages. So I 
just want to end with that, but thank you very much.
    And I yield back.
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Sure. Our offices can get back to you 
as well, Representative Newman, with any additional questions 
that you or the Committee may have.
    Chairman MFUME. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from 
Illinois yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from 
Pennsylvania, Mr. Meuser.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Happy to be with the 
Committee here today, and thank you to the witnesses. I am, in 
fact, joining a little bit late, but I did catch that exchange, 
which I found fascinating. Ms. Murphy, I am going to ask you, 
and you probably didn't come here to get inquisitioned about 
whether or not you are antiunion, but I will say that is 
certainly what it sounded like. I, myself, am a Republican in a 
non-right-to-work State, Pennsylvania, and I am always 
favorable to the trades.
    I think our unions have some great apprenticeship programs, 
and prevailing wage is something that we are all for, 
prevailing wage plus when it is plus-plus, that tends to get in 
the way of projects. So anything that is antigrowth and 
antidevelopment, I think is certainly a matter of discussion. 
And I think the trades--and it certainly sounded like you were 
trying to get this out, was--deserve a seat at the table just 
like those who choose not to be part of a trade or a union at 
that particular time. And PLAs, by the way, are one of the 
[inaudible]. It is not an inclusionary proposition, which is 
the reason that many companies have an issue with it.
    So I would just ask in the PRO Act, to have it remove 
States' rights such as the right to work is just unfair. States 
should be the ones who determine such things and the idea that 
the PRO Act calls for a secret ballot, or looks to remove the 
secret ballot, is quite interesting as well, because we are not 
talking about fairness here; we are talking about some other 
tactics that are simply inappropriate.
    So I appreciate where you are coming from, but at the same 
note, we have got to figure out how businesses can move 
forward, wages can stay high, and it is a very inclusionary 
atmosphere. But I will just ask you related to the PRO Act, and 
this might be repetitive, how will that affect your business if 
the PRO Act were to pass?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Thank you, Representative. So I would 
like to maybe focus on the taxes piece about the increase in 
taxes, maybe, again, in this aspect as well, especially with 
all the benefits and the growth that we have seen in the last 
couple of years.
    I guess the biggest piece about the Act is the taxes piece 
also, that that concerns me. Because with--it just brings a lot 
of uncertainty to my company of what that would look like. Will 
I be able to continue with the employees that we do have? Will 
we be able to still provide the benefits that we do have?
    And those are high--those are high concerns, as well as--I 
agree with you on the secret ballots and all those other 
things, which kind of surprised me. I didn't really understand 
why that would be in this kind of bill. All we are asking is 
for, like what you said, a seat at the table and fairness all 
across the board for everyone.
    Mr. MEUSER. Let me ask you this, Ms. Murphy: The idea of 
the tax reductions that took place a couple of years ago had 
about a 20 percent reduction for small business. I have many 
friends who have small businesses, and most of them told me 
they were able to bring in more inventory, they were able to 
hire one or two more people, they were able to expand their 
business. They did not say, Hey, this is great. I am going to 
be making an extra $20,000 a year.
    What was your experience? What did you do with the tax 
relief that took place?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. I immediately went back and it went 
back into the employees. We were able to hire double the amount 
of employees that we had before then. We were able to also give 
raises, give very high bonuses, and be able to provide 
healthcare and 401 plans for the first time.
    Mr. MEUSER. So you are a passthrough business, of course. 
If that was changed, and that is a lot of talk, of course, 
about raising the income tax, as well as eliminating small 
business relief, would that reverse things for you, or how 
would you handle that, particularly after recovering out of 
COVID?
    Mrs. MECIAS-MURPHY. Yes, it would definitely affect our 
business financially in a huge way, especially since with 
COVID, even though the construction companies were still 
working, there was a 3- to 4-month delay. Let's say we had 
projects that we were working on during COVID and we continued 
with those projects. But then, there was a lot of bidding and a 
lot of projects got held, because the building departments were 
closed, plans weren't being reviewed, or what have you.
    So it is kind of now--I would say there is probably a 4- to 
6 months that there weren't any new projects being awarded, and 
that had an effect as well, especially with COVID, and that 
would just add on top of that situation.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I yield back.
    Chairman MFUME. Absolutely. The gentleman from 
Pennsylvania's time has expired.
    In fact, all time has expired. And I want to personally, 
again, thank all of our witnesses for being here today to have 
comments on what we consider to be a very, very important 
subject, particularly our new witnesses in the persons of Mr. 
Bone, Ms. Ohrenberg, and Ms. Murphy, and our old friend, Mr. 
Thomas, who has joined us, again, before this Committee.
    We all agree, I think, that we have got to find ways to put 
the funding of whatever we come up with as a Congress so that 
it works for small businesses. Those businesses over the 
centuries helped to build this country. It is critical now, I 
think we will all agree, that they have to help be a part of 
the rebuild.
    It is my hope that this hearing shed light on existing 
programs to ensure the participation of small firms in that 
procurement process.
    And as we consider infrastructure proposals, we have got to 
work also to expand contracting opportunities, and provide 
small businesses with the resources they need to complete them.
    So at this point, I would like to ask unanimous consent 
that Members have 5 legislative days to submit statements and 
supporting materials for their record. Without objection, it is 
so ordered.
    And I want to thank, in particular, the Ranking Member, Ms. 
Salazar, for joining us for what we both consider is, 
hopefully, a step forward on this whole issue of contracting 
and infrastructure.
    If there is no further business before the Committee, the 
Committee now does stand adjourned.
    Thank you all very, very much.
    [Whereupon, at 2:37 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
                            
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