    [House Hearing, 117 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                              NASA'S EARTH SCIENCE
                         AND CLIMATE CHANGE ACTIVITIES:
                     CURRENT ROLES AND FUTURE OPPORTUNITIES

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE AND AERONAUTICS

                                     OF THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                                 AND TECHNOLOGY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 18, 2021

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 117-15

                                   __________

     Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology

                   [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

           Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov

                                     ______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    44-538 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2023

                  COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                 HON. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas, Chairwoman

    ZOE LOFGREN, California              FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma,
    SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon                 Ranking Member
    AMI BERA, California                 MO BROOKS, Alabama
    HALEY STEVENS, Michigan,             BILL POSEY, Florida
        Vice Chair                       RANDY WEBER, Texas
    MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey           BRIAN BABIN, Texas
    JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York              ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
    BRAD SHERMAN, California             MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida
    ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              JAMES R. BAIRD, Indiana
    JERRY McNERNEY, California           PETE SESSIONS, Texas
    PAUL TONKO, New York                 DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
    BILL FOSTER, Illinois                MIKE GARCIA, California
    DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          STEPHANIE I. BICE, Oklahoma
    DON BEYER, Virginia                  YOUNG KIM, California
    CHARLIE CRIST, Florida               RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
    SEAN CASTEN, Illinois                JAKE LaTURNER, Kansas
    CONOR LAMB, Pennsylvania             CARLOS A. GIMENEZ, Florida
    DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina         JAY OBERNOLTE, California
    GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin                PETER MEIJER, Michigan
    DAN KILDEE, Michigan                 VACANCY
    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
    LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
    VACANCY
                                     ------

                     Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics

                       HON. DON BEYER, Virginia, Chairman

    ZOE LOFGREN, California              BRIAN BABIN, Texas,
    AMI BERA, California                     Ranking Member
    BRAD SHERMAN, California             MO BROOKS, Alabama
    ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BILL POSEY, Florida
    CHARLIE CRIST, Florida               DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
    DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          YOUNG KIM, California

                             C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                                  May 18, 2021

                                                                       Page

    Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                               Opening Statements

    Statement by Representative Don Beyer, Chairman, Subcommittee on
      Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science, Space, and
      Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................     9
        Written Statement............................................    10

    Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Ranking Member,
      Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science,
      Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives...........    11
        Written Statement............................................    12

    Statement by Representative Frank Lucas, Ranking Member,
      Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of
      Representatives................................................    13
        Written Statement............................................    14

    Written statement by Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson,
      Chairwoman, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S.
      House of Representatives.......................................    15

                                   Witnesses:

    Dr. Karen M. St. Germain, Division Director, Earth Sciences
      Division, Science Mission Directorate, NASA
        Oral Statement...............................................    16
        Written Statement............................................    19

    Dr. Gavin Schmidt, Senior Climate Advisor (Acting) and Director
      of Goddard Institute for Space Studies, NASA
        Oral Statement...............................................    26
        Written Statement............................................    28

    Mr. Riley Duren, Research Scientist, Office of Research,
      Innovation, and Impact, University of Arizona; Chief Executive
      Officer, Carbon Mapper, Inc.
        Oral Statement...............................................    52
        Written Statement............................................    54

    Mr. Robbie Schingler, Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer,
      Planet
        Oral Statement...............................................    70
        Written Statement............................................    72

    Discussion.......................................................    80

                  Appendix: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

    Dr. Karen M. St. Germain, Division Director, Earth Sciences
      Division, Science Mission Directorate, NASA....................    98

    Dr. Gavin Schmidt, Senior Climate Advisor (Acting) and Director
      of Goddard Institute for Space Studies, NASA...................   106

    Mr. Riley Duren, Research Scientist, Office of Research,
      Innovation, and Impact, University of Arizona; Chief Executive
      Officer, Carbon Mapper, Inc....................................   110

    Mr. Robbie Schingler, Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer,
      Planet.........................................................   112

                              NASA'S EARTH SCIENCE
                         AND CLIMATE CHANGE ACTIVITIES:
                     CURRENT ROLES AND FUTURE OPPORTUNITIES

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, MAY 18, 2021

                      House of Representatives,
                 Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics,
                   Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                       Washington, D.C.

         The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:01 a.m.,
    via Zoom, Hon. Don Beyer [Chairman of the Subcommittee]
    presiding.

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Chairman Beyer. This hearing will come to order. Without
    objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recess at any
    time.
         And before delivering my opening remarks, I wanted to note
    that, today, the Committee is meeting virtually. I want to
    announce a couple reminders to the Members about the conduct of
    this meeting. First, Members should keep their video feed on as
    long as they are present in the hearing. Members are
    responsible for their own microphones, and also please keep
    your microphone muted unless you are speaking. And finally, if
    Members have documents they wish to submit for the record,
    please email them to the Committee Clerk, whose email address
    was circulated prior to the hearing.
         So good morning, and welcome today's hearing on ``NASA's
    Earth Science and Climate Change Activities: Current Roles and
    Future Opportunities.''
         But first, I want to thank our panel of expert witnesses
    for being here. There's no more important time for addressing
    climate change and the health of our planet. Delaying action
    risks everything--from increased exposure to heat waves, spread
    of vector-borne diseases, drought, crop failures, and severe
    weather. Actions taken and policies developed to respond to the
    climate crisis must be informed by peer-reviewed science, and
    that science starts with measurements, observations, and
    research that leads to understanding.
         That's where NASA (National Aeronautics and Space
    Administration) comes in. For studying the Earth, space is the
    ultimate vantage point. And thanks to NASA's fleet of space-
    based science observations and measurements, we have long-term
    research data sets that show the scientific signals of climate
    change. Those signals, unlike short-term variations in
    terrestrial weather, change over longer periods of time. NASA
    Earth observation measurements also provide important inputs to
    models that enable our ability to predict and forecast climate
    change. And NASA satellite measurements contribute to studies
    such as the National Climate Assessment, a scientific
    assessment of climate change and its impacts across the United
    States.
         Beyond the data, satellite observations have the ability
    to tell a compelling visual story such as the significant loss
    of sea ice and glacier melt in the Arctic. Several astronauts
    have remarked on their experiences of viewing the Earth from
    space. In a Scientific American article issued just a few days
    ago, former NASA astronaut Scott Kelly said, quote, ``During my
    first mission in 1999 to fix the Hubble Space Telescope, I
    remember passing over South America and being awed by the sheer
    size of the Amazon rainforest. But on my last mission in 2016,
    only 17 years later, burning and clearcutting were clearly
    evident. After seeing the Earth dramatically change from this
    unique perspective, I firmly believe that solving climate
    change is the moonshot of the 21st century,'' end quote.
         Closer to home, NASA satellite data are helping identify
    algal blooms, and NASA and NOAA (National Oceanic and
    Atmospheric Administration) satellite data are helping farmers
    increase their efficient use of water resources for irrigation,
    saving money and increasing profitability. These are just a few
    examples that illustrate the value of NASA's Earth science
    research to business, local resource managers, and
    environmental decisionmakers.
         NASA once referred to its Earth science activities as
    ``Mission to Planet Earth.'' In the midst of economic,
    property, health, and environmental impacts from climate
    change, it's clear we have an urgent mission before us. We need
    to look at every opportunity to act now. Is there more than
    NASA could and should do? Are there gaps in our scientific
    understanding of the Earth system that need to be addressed?
    Are there opportunities to expand the transition of research
    into information tools?
         And, of course, it's not just NASA. Other Federal research
    agencies are working on climate change research and mitigation
    efforts. Commercial satellite imaging companies,
    philanthropists, and not-for-profit entities are ready and
    willing to contribute to the climate challenge. And we need
    them all. Where and how do they fit into an overall climate
    strategy? How should NASA effectively partner with non-Federal
    entities and also maintain free and open data?
         In closing, the Nation is planning aggressive efforts to
    mitigate the climate crisis, and we'll need to check our
    progress. While NASA is not a regulatory agency and certainly
    not the carbon police, how can space-based measurements
    validate or check the effectiveness of mitigation strategies?
    Where does NASA play a role?
         Today's hearing is an important opportunity to consider
    these and other questions, and I really look forward to hearing
    from our distinguished witnesses.
         [The prepared statement of Chairman Beyer follows:]

        Good morning and welcome to today's hearing on ``NASA's
    Earth Science and Climate Change Activities: Current Roles and
    Future Opportunities''. First, I want to thank our panel of
    expert witnesses for being here.
        There is no more important time for addressing climate
    change and the health of our planet. Delaying action risks
    everything from increased exposure to heatwaves, spread of
    vector-borne diseases, drought, crop failures, and severe
    weather.
        Actions taken and policies developed to respond to the
    climate crisis must be informed by peer-reviewed science, and
    that science starts with measurements, observations, and
    research that leads to understanding.
        That's where NASA comes in.
        When studying the Earth, space is the ultimate vantage
    point. Thanks to NASA's fleet of space-based science
    observations and measurements, we have long-term research data
    sets that show the scientific signals of climate change.
        Those signals, unlike short-term variations in terrestrial
    weather, change over longer time periods.
        NASA Earth observation measurements also provide important
    inputs to models that enable our ability to predict and
    forecast climate change.
        And NASA satellite measurements contribute to studies such
    as the National Climate Assessment-a scientific assessment of
    climate change and its impacts across the United States.
        Beyond the data, satellite observations have the ability to
    tell a compelling visual story, such as the significant loss of
    sea ice and glacier melt in the Arctic.
        Several astronauts have remarked on their experiences of
    viewing the Earth from space. In a Scientific American article
    issued just a few days ago, former NASA astronaut Scott Kelly
    said, ``During my first mission, in 1999, to fix the Hubble
    Space Telescope, I remember passing over South America and
    being awed by the sheer size of the Amazon rainforest. On my
    last mission in 2016, only 17 years later, burning and clear-
    cutting were clearly evident. After seeing the Earth
    dramatically change from this unique perspective, I firmly
    believe that solving climate change is the moonshot of the 21st
    century.''
        Closer to home, NASA satellite data are helping identify
    algal blooms, and NASA and NOAA satellite data are helping
    farmers increase their efficient use of water resources for
    irrigation--saving money and increasing profitability.
        These are just a few examples that illustrate the value of
    NASA's Earth science research to businesses, local resource
    managers, and environmental decision makers.
        NASA once referred to its Earth science activities as
    ``Mission to Planet Earth''.
        In the midst of economic, property, health, and
    environmental impacts from climate change, it's clear we have
    an urgent mission before us.
        We need to look at every opportunity to act now.
        Is there more that NASA could and should do?
         Are there gaps in our scientific understanding of
    the Earth system that need to be addressed?
         Are there opportunities to expand the transition
    of research into information tools?
        And it's not just NASA.
        Other Federal research agencies are working on climate
    change research and mitigation efforts.
        Commercial satellite imaging companies, philanthropists,
    and not-for-profit entities are ready and willing to contribute
    to the climate challenge.
        We need them all.
        Where and how do they fit into to an overall climate
    strategy? How should NASA effectively partner with non-Federal
    entities, and also maintain free and open data?
        In closing, the nation is planning aggressive efforts to
    mitigate the climate crisis, and we'll need to check our
    progress.
        While NASA is not a regulatory agency or a carbon police,
    how can space-based measurements validate or check the
    effectiveness of mitigation strategies? Should NASA play a
    role?
        Today's hearing is an important opportunity to consider
    these and other questions, and I look forward to hearing from
    our witnesses.
        And now I'd like to turn to the Ranking Member, the
    gentleman from Texas, Dr. Brian Babin for his opening
    statement.

         Chairman Beyer. So let me--talking about distinguished,
    let me turn to our Ranking Member, the gentleman from Texas, my
    friend, Dr. Brian Babin, for his opening statement. Dr. Babin?
         And, Brian, you are still muted for the moment.
         Mr. Babin. How about now, Mr. Chairman? Can you hear me?
         Chairman Beyer. You're good. Thank you.
         Mr. Babin. OK. Yes, thank you very much. Great to be with
    you. Looking forward to this hearing. It's particularly timely.
         The Biden Administration has proposed increasing NASA's
    Earth science budget by $300 million, which is a 12.5 percent
    increase above fiscal year 2021-enacted levels. Since we don't
    have other details about the proposed budget yet, we do not
    know what impact this proposal will have on other aspects of
    the agency or how the agency is proposing to spend this
    increase.
         While those details may be lacking at this moment, there
    are a number of other initiatives currently underway at NASA
    that we can certainly explore. For example, NASA received the
    second Earth science decadal review from the National Academies
    in 2018. This hearing is a great opportunity to understand how
    NASA is responding to that report. Previous decadal surveys
    highlighted NASA's unique role of developing first-of-a-kind
    instruments that could then be transitioned to operational
    agencies like NOAA and USGS (United States Geological Survey).
         As NASA seeks to take on a more operational role in
    maintaining observational data sets, it will be important for
    Congress to understand the long-term impacts of this evolution
    on other Earth science missions, on other science divisions, on
    other elements of the agency like human exploration, as well as
    the effects on the government and society as a whole.
    Maintaining a balanced and sustainable portfolio of programs
    that NASA could insulate specific programs from wild swings and
    funding that complicate planning and operations.
         One way that NASA can take on these new operational roles
    without breaking the bank or impacting other programs is to
    leverage the existing commercial remote-sensing industry.
    Previous attempts to incorporate commercial data were met with
    resistance from the government, and the industry was still in
    its infancy at that time. The commercial remote industry is
    much more robust today, and agencies are much more receptive to
    incorporating data from novel sources. NASA initiated a data
    buy pilot project in 2017 and, more recently, stood up a formal
    data acquisition program.
         One near-term decision related to leveraging the
    commercial remote-sensing industry is Landsat. The Landsat
    program has provided world-class multi-decade 30 meter
    resolution of Earth's surface. Last year, the Administration
    announced that it was undertaking a Landsat architecture study
    to explore novel ways to maintain the Landsat data set. As the
    former Director of USGS stated at the time, quote, ``Rather
    than one single large satellite bus, which is what Landsat has
    been historically, we've looked at other options. The
    revolution in space is underway, and we'll want to capitalize
    on that as much as we possibly can,'' unquote.
         Despite progress made toward this effort over the last
    several years, NASA issued a request for information, an RFI,
    for a Landsat Next instrument studies that may deviate from
    this plan and return a business-as-usual approach. U.S. law and
    national policy directs NASA to advance the commercial space
    sector. Title 51 of the U.S. code directs NASA to ``seek and
    encourage to the maximum extent possible the fullest commercial
    use of space.'' NASA is also directed to ``acquire, where cost-
    effective, space-based and airborne Earth remote-sensing data,
    services, distribution, and applications from a commercial
    provider.''
         Both the 2014 National Plan for Civil Earth Observations
    and the 2015 National Space Weather Action Plan direct Federal
    agencies to identify and pursue commercial solutions. More
    recently, the 2019 National Plan for Civil Earth Observations
    directed agencies to strive to engage with the full Earth
    observations enterprise to determine whether there is a
    commercial solution available or end process that might be more
    appropriate than creation of a new Federal observing asset.
    These policies were also reinforced in the most recent decadal
    survey for Earth science.
         I look very much forward to discussing how NASA plans to
    incorporate commercial remote-sensing data to maximize taxpayer
    dollars spent on Earth science. So thank you, and I yield back
    the balance of my time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
         [The prepared statement of Mr. Babin follows:]

        Today's hearing is particularly timely. The Biden
    Administration proposed increasing NASA's Earth Science budget
    by $300 million--a 12.5 percent increase above FY21 enacted
    levels. Since we don't have other details about the proposed
    budget yet, we do not know what impact this proposal will have
    on other aspects of the agency, or how the agency is proposing
    to spend this increase. While those details may be lacking at
    this moment, there are a number of other initiatives currently
    underway at NASA that we can explore.
        For example, NASA received the second Earth science decadal
    review from the National Academies in 2018. This hearing is a
    great opportunity to understanding how NASA is responding to
    that report. Previous decadal surveys highlighted NASA's unique
    role of developing first-of-a-kind instruments that could then
    be transitioned to operational agencies like NOAA and USGS. As
    NASA seeks to take on a more operational role in maintaining
    observational datasets, it will be important for Congress to
    understand the long-term impacts of this evolution on other
    Earth science missions, on other science divisions, on other
    elements of the agency like human exploration, as well as the
    effects on the government and society as a whole. Maintaining a
    balanced and sustainable portfolio of programs at NASA could
    insulate specific programs from wild swings in funding that
    complicate planning and operations.
        One way NASA can take on these new operational roles
    without breaking the bank or impacting other programs is to
    leverage the existing commercial remote sensing industry.
    Previous attempts to incorporate commercial data were met with
    resistance from the government, and the industry was still in
    its infancy at the time. The commercial remote industry is much
    more robust today, and agencies are much more receptive to
    incorporating data from novel sources. NASA initiated a data
    buy pilot project in 2017, and more recently stood up a formal
    Data Acquisition Program.
        One near-term decision related to leveraging the commercial
    remote sensing industry is Landsat. The Landsat program has
    provided world-class, multi-decade, 30 meter resolution of
    Earth's surface. Last year the Administration announced that it
    was undertaking a Landsat architecture study to explore novel
    ways to maintain the Landsat dataset. As the former director of
    the USGS stated at the time, ``[r]ather than one single large
    satellite bus, which is what Landsat has been historically,
    we've looked at other options.[t]he revolution in space is
    underway and we'll want to capitalize on that as much as we
    possibly can.'' Despite progress made towards this effort over
    the last several years, NASA issued a request for information
    (RFI) for Landsat Next instrument studies that may deviate from
    this plan and return a business as usual approach.
        U.S. law and national policy directs NASA to advance the
    commercial space sector. Title 51 of the U.S. Code direct NASA
    to, ``seek and encourage, to the maximum extent possible, the
    fullest commercial use of space.'' NASA is also directed to
    ``acquire, where cost-effective, space based and airborne Earth
    remote sensing data, services, distribution, and applications
    from a commercial provider.''
        Both the 2014 National Plan for Civil Earth Observations
    and the 2015 National Space Weather Action Plan direct Federal
    agencies to identify and pursue commercial solutions. More
    recently, the 2019 National Plan for Civil Earth Observations
    directed agencies to ``strive to engage with the full Earth
    Observations Enterprise to determine whether there is a
    commercial solution available or in process that might be more
    appropriate than creation of a Federal observing asset.'' These
    policies were also reinforced in the most recent decadal survey
    for Earth science.
        I look forward to discussing how NASA plans to incorporate
    commercial remote sensing data to maximize taxpayer dollars
    spent on Earth science. Thank you, and I yield back the balance
    of my time.

         Chairman Beyer. Dr. Babin, thank you very much. I really
    appreciate your insights.
         Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
         Chairman Beyer. And now let me recognize the Ranking
    Member of the Full Science Committee, its Chairman Emeritus,
    Mr. Lucas from Oklahoma.
         Mr. Lucas. Thank you for holding this hearing, Mr.
    Chairman.
         Today's hearing is an important opportunity for the
    Committee to engage in oversight of NASA's current and future
    Earth science and climate activities. I'm looking forward to
    discussing how the agency can best utilize resources within
    existing budgets and how it can use additional resources.
    NASA's mandate to research Earth's atmosphere dates back to the
    passage of NASA's Organic Act in 1958, which stated, ``NASA
    shall seek the expansion of human knowledge of phenomena in the
    atmosphere and space.'' That mission has evolved through the
    decades as our technical capacity and scientific knowledge have
    increased.
         Today, the Earth Science Division of NASA oversees a broad
    range of activities and missions, including managing a variety
    of ongoing Earth observation missions, planning future
    missions, and sharing the data collected from these missions
    with the scientific community and the public. NASA is currently
    operating more than a dozen Earth science missions in tandem
    with international partners and other Federal agencies and has
    a dozen more missions slated to launch in the decade ahead.
    These missions provide a new generation of satellites and
    instruments to monitor and provide data about Earth's changing
    climate and the scientific community.
         Today's hearing represents an opportunity to evaluate
    NASA's Earth science and climate partnerships within the
    Federal Government with international partners and with the
    private sector. This Committee has an opportunity and an
    obligation to consider whether these partnerships work in the
    most effective manner and if the agency would benefit from new
    approaches to these partnerships.
         Our panel represents a cross-section of government, the
    nonprofit sector, and industry, and that is appropriate as all
    three sectors must work together to provide the best knowledge
    to the scientific community.
         Today's hearing is timely. The commercial remote-sensing
    industry has come a long way in a very short period of time.
    New remote-sensing technologies have made images of Earth more
    accessible. The images and data made available by commercial
    providers are of great value to any number of consumers,
    whether it's in the public safety officials, in the West
    managing forest, or farmers in Oklahoma growing crops.
         As the author of NOAA's Commercial Weather Data Buy
    program and the Commercial Data Buy program in the space
    weather legislation passed last Congress, I have long
    championed the ability of commercial remote-sensing industry to
    fill gaps in the Federal Earth observation abilities. To be
    clear, this does not mean that the commercial sector would
    replace the government's role but instead complement it and
    provide more cost-effective and novel solutions.
         We'll hear testimony today about how the commercial sector
    is helping fill this need, as well as how NASA could increase
    its utilization.
         I look forward and thank our witnesses today for sharing
    their perspectives on this topic, and I expect a productive
    discussion about how this community can insure NASA's Earth
    science and climate activities can be made even more efficient
    and cost-effective moving forward.
         Again, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the hearing, and I
    yield back the balance of my time.
         [The prepared statement of Mr. Lucas follows:]

        Thank you for holding this hearing, Mr. Chairman. Today's
    hearing is an important opportunity for the Committee to engage
    in oversight of NASA's current and future earth science and
    climate activities. I'm looking forward to discussing how the
    agency can best utilize resources within existing budgets and
    how it would use additional resources.
        NASA's mandate to research Earth's atmosphere dates back to
    the passage of NASA's Organic Act in 1958, which stated NASA
    shall seek the ``expansion of human knowledge of phenomena in
    the atmosphere and space.'' That mission has evolved through
    the decades as our technical capacity and scientific knowledge
    have increased. Today, the Earth Science Division at NASA
    oversees a broad range of activities and missions, including
    managing a variety of ongoing Earth observation missions,
    planning future missions, and sharing the data collected from
    these missions with the scientific community and the public.
        NASA is currently operating more than a dozen Earth science
    missions in tandem with international partners and other
    federal agencies, and has a dozen more missions slated to
    launch in the decade ahead. These missions provide a new
    generation of satellites and instruments to monitor and provide
    data about Earth's changing climate to the scientific
    community.
        Today's hearing represents an opportunity to evaluate
    NASA's Earth science and climate partnerships within the
    federal government, with international partners, and with the
    private sector. This Committee has an obligation to consider
    whether these partnerships work in the most effective manner
    and if the agency would benefit from new approaches to these
    partnerships. Our panel represents a cross-section of
    government, the non-profit sector, and industry. And that is
    appropriate as all three sectors must work together to provide
    the best knowledge to the scientific community.
        Today's hearing is timely. The commercial remote sensing
    industry has come a long way in a very short period of time.
    New remote sensing technologies have made images of Earth more
    accessible. The images and data made available by commercial
    providers are of great value to any number of consumers,
    whether it is public safety officials in the west managing
    forests, or farmers in Oklahoma growing crops.
        As the author of NOAA's commercial weather data buy program
    and the commercial data buy program in the space weather
    legislation passed last Congress, I have long championed the
    ability of the commercial remote sensing industry to fill gaps
    in federal earth observation abilities. To be clear, this does
    not mean that the commercial sector would replace the
    government's role, but instead complement it and provide more
    cost- effective and novel solutions. We will hear testimony
    today about how the commercial sector is helping fill this need
    as well as how NASA could increase its utilization.
        I want to thank our witnesses today for sharing their
    perspectives on this topic. I look forward to a productive
    discussion about how this Committee can ensure NASA's Earth
    Science and climate activities can be made more efficient and
    cost-effective moving forward.
        I yield back the balance of my time.

         Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Ranking Member Lucas, very
    much.
         [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Johnson follows:]

        Thank you Chairman Beyer for holding today's hearing on
    NASA's climate change activities. I'm pleased that the Space
    and Aeronautics Subcommittee is taking a close look at NASA's
    Earth science and climate change work. Because from the
    agency's first Earth observing satellites over 60 years ago,
    NASA has been a cornerstone of the nation's Earth science and
    climate research activities.
        The Committee on Science, Space, and Technology initiated
    the Global Change Research Act in 1990, over 30 years ago. NASA
    is just one of thirteen agencies involved, but its Earth
    science and climate research efforts have been a major
    contributor to the US Global Change Research Program developed
    in response to the 1990 Act.
        A lot has happened since 1990. Based on the research and
    observations of our agencies over these last decades, climate
    change has gone from study to crisis. The work of the Committee
    on Science, Space, and Technology is now considering how our
    Nation's research and development efforts can address this
    crisis. Science must remain at the center, both in our
    continuing work to understand climate change, but also in our
    efforts to mitigate it and help communities respond to it.
        NASA also has a role in advancing innovative technologies
    and approaches to sustainable aviation. I'm pleased that the
    Biden Administration is taking aggressive steps to address the
    climate crisis. This challenge requires that we examine every
    opportunity to leverage capabilities, partnerships, and
    consider potential options for further contributions. Today's
    hearing will take an important step toward that end, and I look
    forward to our witness' testimony.
        Thank you and I yield back.

         Chairman Beyer. At this time, I'd like to introduce our
    witnesses. Our first witness is Dr. Karen St. Germain. Dr. St.
    Germain is the Division Director for NASA's Earth Science
    Division within the Science Mission Directorate. Dr. St.
    Germain received a bachelor of science degree in electrical
    engineering from Union College, a doctor of philosophy degree
    in electrical engineering from the University of Massachusetts.
    So welcome, Dr. St. Germain.
         Our second witness is Dr. Gavin Schmidt, Acting Senior
    Advisor in Climate Science to the NASA Administrator and the
    Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr.
    Schmidt received a first-class bachelor of arts degree in
    mathematics from Oxford University and a doctorate on the
    calculation scattering and stability of topographic Rossby
    waves from University College London. I hope you're going to
    talk about those scatterings. So welcome, Dr. Schmidt.
         Our third witness is Mr. Riley Duren, a Research Scientist
    at the University of Arizona and Chief Executive Officer (CEO)
    of the Carbon Mapper, a nonprofit organization. He also
    maintains part-time employment as an Engineering Fellow at
    NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). Mr. Duren received a
    bachelor of science in electrical engineering from Auburn
    University. Welcome, Mr. Duren.
         And our final witness is Mr. Robbie Schingler, an
    entrepreneur, cofounder of Planet labs, and a former NASA
    Engineer and Program Manager with more than 20 years of
    experience building satellite projects. Mr. Schingler received
    a bachelor of science in engineering physics from Santa Clara
    University, a bachelor of science in space studies from
    International Space University, and a master of business
    administration from Georgetown University. Welcome, Mr.
    Schingler.
         So we will start in the order just introduced. Dr. St.
    Germain, the floor is yours for your opening statement.

                 TESTIMONY OF DR. KAREN M. ST. GERMAIN,

              DIVISION DIRECTOR, EARTH SCIENCES DIVISION,

                   SCIENCE MISSION DIRECTORATE, NASA

         Dr. St. Germain. Chairman Beyer, Ranking Member Babin,
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you so much for the
    opportunity to speak today on NASA's contributions as a global
    leader in Earth science.
         NASA holds a unique position as the only space agency with
    integrated end-to-end Earth observing capability from building
    and flying satellites to research, data systems, and delivery
    of science applications. Today, I'll testify on how NASA's
    Earth science expertise advances our understanding of how to
    adapt to and ultimately thrive on our changing planet.
         The science of the last 20 years has settled the question
    of whether our planet's climate is changing. What we must do
    over the coming 20 years is to better understand Earth systems,
    those interactions between land, ocean, air and ice, and human
    communities so we can improve our predictions of how our
    environment might change. Those predictions are essential for
    policymakers such as this Committee to make decisions on
    mitigation, adaption, and resilience.
         There is no better vantage point than space to collect the
    Earth data that is the foundation of our science, our models,
    and our predictive capability. Today, NASA flies 23 space-based
    observing systems in addition to the satellites we build for
    our partner agencies, USGS and NOAA.
         NASA systems measure greenhouse gases and sea level rise.
    They monitor fire weather and detect soil moisture and crop
    stress, just to name a few. We combine our observations with
    data from our strategic partners and commercial Earth
    observation companies to investigate complex questions that lay
    the foundation for modeling prediction and scientifically sound
    information. This is important because these are the models and
    information products that inform decisionmakers at every level
    on imperatives like ensuring a safe and ample supply of
    drinking water, maintaining our Nation's ability to feed
    itself, and building community resilience and safety from
    extreme weather events.
         To meet this demand for information, NASA Earth science is
    accelerating work in three key areas: observations, modeling
    and informatics, and applications and dissemination. I'm going
    to touch on each of these areas briefly.
         NASA is observing--advancing observations capabilities by
    investing in technology innovation, exploring alternative
    observation platforms, new approaches to industry partnership
    and commercial services, and expanding collaboration with our
    international partners. And I'll say more about those specific
    plans in just a moment.
         Modeling and informatics further our understanding and
    prediction of the whole-Earth system by extracting scientific
    understanding from the measurements and capturing that
    understanding in models and frameworks that span timescales
    from minutes to decades and spatial scales ranging from
    continents to individual agricultural fields.
         Finally, in applications and dissemination, we're
    dramatically accelerating the delivery and use of scientific
    understanding. We're working through open science and
    accessibility principles to ensure our data and information are
    within reach, especially to previously underserved communities.
    And we are creating scalable science applications to meet the
    needs at every level of decisionmaking.
         Returning to the topic of NASA space-based observation
    capability, the National Academies of Science laid out an
    ambitious but critical observation objectives in its 2017 Earth
    science decadal survey. NASA intends to meet those objectives
    through an array of space-based satellites, instruments, and
    missions that we're calling the Earth system observatory. These
    measurements will help us answer critical open questions about
    the Earth system. We'll observe aerosols in our atmosphere and
    how they interact with clouds, convection, and precipitation to
    tackle the largest natural uncertainty in predicting climate
    change while improving severe weather and air quality
    forecasting. We'll track minute local changes in our Earth's
    mass, which will inform drought predictions and help local
    water managers make decisions about agricultural and municipal
    water supplies. And our surface biology and geology
    observations will improve our understanding of how climate
    change affects food production and ecosystems.
         Finally, by monitoring changes in our Earth's surface,
    we'll be better--we will better predict sea level rise in
    events such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and landslides.
    Together, these observations will capture a three-dimensional
    view of our Earth from atmosphere to bedrock, and we're now
    starting the first phase of mission planning.
         NASA is advancing not just what we're doing but how we're
    doing it. We're dedicated to open science and diversity, more
    partnership with the commercial sector, and new business models
    to rapidly onboard advances in technology.
         Around the end of this decade, almost another billion
    people will live on our planet, putting more pressure on
    Earth's resources and increasing demand for actionable
    information. Climate change demands science equal to the
    challenge it presents. NASA is moving to meet this challenge,
    accelerating our science, our international and interagency
    partnerships, and exploring new ways to do business.
         Thank you for the opportunity to discuss NASA's Earth
    science program, and I'd be pleased to respond any questions
    you might have.
         [The prepared statement of Dr. St. Germain follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much, Dr. St. Germain.
    We'll have plenty of questions for you, I'm sure.
         Now, let me recognize Dr. Gavin Schmidt for his testimony.

                    TESTIMONY OF DR. GAVIN SCHMIDT,

                    SENIOR CLIMATE ADVISOR (ACTING)

                   AND DIRECTOR OF GODDARD INSTITUTE

                        FOR SPACE STUDIES, NASA

         Dr. Schmidt. Chairman Beyer, Ranking Member Babin, Members
    of the Subcommittee, my name is Gavin Schmidt, and I'm the
    director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and
    the Acting Senior Advisor on Climate to the NASA Administrator.
         Today, I would like to share with you the breadth and
    depth of NASA's work on climate, covering pure scientific
    research, technology development, applied science, education,
    as well as the efforts to reduce the agency's own emissions and
    build greater resilience.
         NASA is the lead agency for civil aeronautics research and
    for scientific research that can be productively studied from
    space, acknowledging that practical benefits for society are
    always an important measure of success. NASA is specifically
    tasked with ensuring public access to accurate data on global
    warming.
         Since the late 19th century, global surface temperatures
    have risen more than 1 degree Celsius, 2 degrees Fahrenheit.
    Sea level has risen by about 12 inches since 1900 and 3
    millimeters per year right now. These broad changes are already
    having a direct impact on communities in the United States and
    internationally.
         We track most of the factors driving climate change and
    investigate the processes that underlie the emergent patterns
    of climate variability. My colleague Dr. Karen St. Germain has
    already expanded on these topics in her testimony today.
         Research connections on climate also include NASA's
    Heliophysics Division and the Planetary Science Division under
    the broad umbrella of Astrobiology. NASA's climate portfolio
    also encompasses research into sustainable aviation and space
    technology transfer focused on clean energy and environmental
    modeling--monitoring.
         NASA is investing in industry partnerships that will
    develop the next generation of single-aisle aircraft that will
    be at least 25 percent more fuel-efficient by the early 2030's.
    We will award contracts for the first-ever high-powered hybrid
    electric propulsion system for large transport aircraft by the
    end of summer 2021 with flight demonstrations of an electrified
    powertrain expected as early as 2023.
         NASA is also providing solutions to the challenge of all
    electric flight through development and flight tests of the X-
    57 airplane. A 2018 competition developed in partnership with
    the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, focused on an aerosol
    monitor that could be used both on the International Space
    Station and in urban polluted environments. Another NASA prize
    competition, the CO2 Conversion Challenge, seeks to
    create a carbon-neutral manufacturing system that can be used
    in space, as well as on Earth.
         NASA has partnered with local government entities. For
    instance in New York, NASA input into the city's climate change
    panel has been important in helping set new standards and
    planning guidelines.
         NASA also partners with other agencies such as the
    Department of Energy and NOAA and through the USGCRP (U.S.
    Global Change Research Program) to help coordinate global
    change research across the Federal Government. NASA is
    participating in the White House's National Climate Task Force
    and the Climate Innovation Working Group.
         Internationally, NASA has partnerships with space agencies
    across the world to develop, launch, and maintain platforms and
    instruments for long-term climate data. NASA's GLOBE (Global
    Learning and Observation to Benefit the Environment) and
    AERONET (Aerosol Robotic Network) programs and SERVIR, a joint
    NASA and USAID (United States Agency for International
    Development) initiative, collectively have a presence in nearly
    125 countries.
         NASA recognizes that rising sea levels and increasing
    hurricane activity along the Gulf Coast will have significant
    impacts on our ability to fulfill our mission and that we must
    implement protective measures in order to reduce our risks.
    Center master plans now include sustainability as a key goal.
    And, since 2008, NASA has seen a consistent downward trend in
    its own greenhouse gas emissions.
         For education and outreach, NASA's Science Activation
    program enables NASA science and experts to--and content to
    engage learners of all ages. NASA reaches upper elementary-aged
    children through ClimateKids.NASA.gov while Climate.NASA.gov is
    a top public website with almost 10 million annual visitors.
         Recently, NASA has convened the Climate Strategy Working
    Group to develop a more integrated approach to the agency's
    climate portfolio and to address the Administration's priority
    for a governmentwide approach in response to the climate
    crisis. Additionally, we are creating a climate action plan to
    further build resilience and educate management on the need to
    embed climate change mitigation and adaptation into our
    decisionmaking procedures.
         NASA has long recognized that climate science is a
    fundamental part of our mandate. With the increasing evidence
    for serious impacts and the elevation of this topic by the
    Administration, it is time for a renewed focus on all aspects
    of climate change and a commitment to ensure that this data and
    understanding will continue to accumulate and be used for the
    benefit of society. Thank you very much.
         [The prepared statement of Dr. Schmidt follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Chairman Beyer. Dr. Schmidt, thank you very much.
         Now, I would recognize Mr. Riley Duren for your testimony.

           TESTIMONY OF MR. RILEY DUREN, RESEARCH SCIENTIST,

              OFFICE OF RESEARCH, INNOVATION, AND IMPACT,

                         UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA;

              CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CARBON MAPPER, INC.

         Mr. Duren. Thank you, Chair Beyer, Ranking Member Babin,
    Members of the Subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to
    contribute today. This is really an important discussion. And
    I'll start by saying that simply by convening this hearing,
    you're already taking, I think, an important step in
    highlighting a persistent gap in U.S. climate policy
    discussions.
         Satellite observations and data in general are critical
    not only for basic climate research but also enabling science-
    based decisionmaking by a broad cross-section of society. So
    NASA and its partners absolutely belong in these discussions,
    and thank you for highlighting this topic.
         As lawmakers consider investments in the Nation's physical
    infrastructure, it's also important to recognize the urgent
    need to address gaps in critical data infrastructure that can
    inform efforts to minimize climate impacts and improve overall
    environmental resiliency in United States and the world. As an
    example of data gaps and opportunities for improvement, I'd
    like to describe a new public-private partnership that's
    leveraging NASA science and technology to deploy a global
    decision support system for quantifying, tracking, and
    supporting mitigation of greenhouse gas emissions.
         In recent years, there has been a growing number of public
    and private sector actors that have signaled an interest in
    reducing their methane and carbon dioxide emissions, including
    ambitious decarbonization targets by some of the world's
    leading economies and major oil and gas companies. Notable
    field studies over the years by many groups have conclusively
    identified the existence of so-called methane super-emitters
    where a relatively small fraction of infrastructure is
    responsible for a disproportionate amount of emissions.
         My own NASA-funded research team used advanced remote
    sensing aircraft to conduct the first comprehensive economywide
    survey of methane emissions in California. We found that less
    than .2 percent of the infrastructure in the State is
    responsible for over 1/3 of California's entire methane
    inventory. Many of these super-emitters are highly
    intermittent, they're widely dispersed over the landscape and
    they're difficult to find typically with conventional surface
    measurements.
         If you can cue the movie, please. Great, thanks.
         [Video shown.]
         Mr. Duren. So our recent airborne surveys with NASA
    aircraft over the Permian oil and gas basin and other regions
    around the United States add to this body of evidence. What
    you're seeing here is a false color movie taken from a NASA
    aircraft at 18,000 feet looking at methane plumes. And this
    offers a vivid illustration that these super-emitters are
    broadly distributed across the landscape almost like invisible
    wildfires, and they mostly go unseen even by operators who are
    otherwise motivated to fix leaks to avoid product loss.
         So oil and gas companies that have reviewed our data
    indicate that at least half of the methane super-emitters were
    detected are the result of leaks and malfunctions that were
    previously unknown. So this suggests low-hanging fruit if you
    will for near-term progress. The idea here is that a high-
    fidelity constellation of satellites could offer daily
    facility-scale methane monitoring over key regions globally to
    alert operators and regulators of leaks for more timely and
    cost-effective repairs.
         However, in practice, this means confronting both
    technical and institutional barriers. No single organization
    today has the mandate, resources, or even the culture to field
    this kind of decision support system, at least not quickly or
    affordably at scale. In this case, the challenges are the
    necessary remote-sensing technology is currently unavailable
    outside of NASA. NASA itself lacks the capacity to launch large
    constellations of satellites. There's no existing government
    program to finance the buildout of such a system. Sustaining
    these systems once you establish them is difficult, given
    shifting Federal priorities. And purely commercial services may
    lack the transparency needed for global public trust and
    adoption.
         So to confront these challenges, we've established a new
    nonprofit organization called Carbon Mapper and a public-
    private partnership that includes remote-sensing technology
    transfer from NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, Planet's agile
    aerospace approach to deploying constellation, science
    leadership from the University of Arizona and ASU (Arizona
    State University), policy expertise and data transparency
    enabled through California and our nonprofit partners, all
    powered by philanthropy. Philanthropy is paying for the startup
    of this program.
         I know speak for other partners in thanking Dr. St.
    Germain from NASA and Mr. Schingler from Planet and their teams
    for their vision and support in establishing this program.
         And in closing, effective responses to climate change and
    other environmental challenges require action by a cross-
    section of society, including governments, businesses and
    private citizens. And the same applies to generating robust
    data and shared awareness to inform those actions. We don't
    have time as a species for delayed action or false starts
    because of incomplete data or monolithic approaches. We need
    the best possible science and systems engineering creativity of
    organizations like NASA to enable new innovative efforts to
    deliver action climate data. And we need the help of Congress
    in helping us support and recognize these efforts. Thank you
    very much.
         [The prepared statement of Mr. Duren follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Chairman Beyer. Mr. Duren, thank you very much. We really
    appreciate that fascinating overflight.
         And now let me recognize our final witness, Mr. Schingler,
    for your testimony.

                   TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBBIE SCHINGLER,

             CO-FOUNDER AND CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER, PLANET

         Mr. Schingler. Chairman Beyer, Ranking Member Babin,
    Chairwoman Johnson, Ranking Member Lucas, and Members of the
    Subcommittee, I'm honored to appear before you today to discuss
    the important role that commercial companies are playing in
    supporting NASA's Earth science and climate change mission and
    the opportunities NASA has to better leverage the commercial
    enterprise to meet their scientific and climate goals.
         I had the privilege to join NASA during my undergraduate
    studies. It forged my professional life with 9 years of service
    that set the conditions for my founding role at Planet. I'm
    proud to be inspired, trained, and influenced by NASA.
         Now, everyone knows the big new rockets being developed
    today, but few people are aware of the renaissance occurring in
    satellites that orbit our planet. It's a bit like the
    transition from the mainframe computer to the desktop computer,
    putting the power of knowledge about the Earth into the hands
    of more of society. And over the last decade, this has resulted
    in a 1,000-fold increase in capability per dollar.
         This dramatic improvement means more data for more
    applications. For example, Planet captures an image of the
    entire landmass of the Earth every day, powered by the world's
    largest constellation of Earth observation satellites in
    history. This data set accelerates our understanding of land-
    use change, biodiversity, and climate science, while also
    helping farmers increase agricultural yield, companies monitor
    supply chains, and governments prepare for and respond to
    natural disasters.
         I'm convinced that only the American market-based risk
    capital ecosystem could create Planet 10 years ago. Congress
    and this Committee has been instrumental in that proud history.
    Given the urgency to make strides in climate science, the
    benefit of massive investment from capital markets in the
    satellite industry, combined with innovation and a lasting
    foundation of U.S. Government systems, I'm confident we can
    work together to make an even brighter future.
         To that end, I respectfully offer a few recommendations
    for your consideration. This Committee can support NASA and the
    commercial U.S. remote-sensing sector by bringing the
    Commercial Smallsat Data Acquisition Program into statute in
    the next NASA authorization bill.
         In 2017, under the leadership of Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA,
    OMB (Office of Management and Budget), and Congress saw the
    potential of value that U.S. commercial remote-sensing
    companies could bring to Earth and climate scientists. They set
    out to understand the scientific viability of these new data
    sets, and it led to the Commercial Smallsat Data Acquisition
    Program. This is a huge success from my perspective, and NASA
    is actively bringing on new commercial companies and expanding
    the scientific user community with Federal civilian agencies.
         Investments in commercial remote-sensing capabilities
    fused with government-operated sensors drive innovation, power
    job creation, and lead U.S. universities and researchers--
    research centers on a path to excellence. I urge this Committee
    to bring in the Commercial Smallsat Data Acquisition Program
    into statute in the next NASA authorization bill and robustly
    fund the program to reflect the growth and value it is
    demonstrating in the scientific community.
         As NASA is creating their next flagship missions,
    including the Landsat Next program, NASA should incorporate the
    planned viable commercial capabilities into their procurement
    strategies and see commercial capabilities as a forethought
    rather than an afterthought.
         Now, let me be clear. Commercial constellations do not
    replace national systems. They complement, improve, and enable
    national systems to more affordably push the scientific
    frontiers. When there are reliable commercial Earth observation
    systems, the national systems can stretch even further to
    enhance our understanding of the planet.
         Finally, we advocate for a whole-of-civil-government
    approach to commercial data buys. Embrace a whole-of-civil-
    government approach to making scientifically accurate and
    factual Earth observation data available. Put another way, you
    can't manage what you can't measure, and this community has the
    information to bring us to a common operating picture to better
    manage our society. These efforts to purchase commercial data
    for both scientific and operational use cases across all
    civilian agencies could be led by NASA in partnership with NOAA
    and USGS.
         So as I conclude, allow me to thank the Committee for
    including a voice from the U.S. commercial sector in this
    important hearing. As Congress and the Biden Administration
    look to focus on climate programs, this conversation is well-
    timed to highlight the important role that remote-sensing
    satellites, both national assets and commercial constellations,
    have in providing the data needed to empower better decisions
    by Federal agencies, State and local governments, communities,
    companies, and individuals.
         Planet is a committed partner to NASA and will provide
    innovative commercial services to equip America's Earth-
    observing community with the tools to lead in this increasingly
    competitive international landscape. You can be confident, as I
    am, that U.S. remote-sensing companies deliver new data sets
    and novel tools to enable governments, societies, and
    businesses to make better decisions and guide humanity toward a
    more secure and sustainable future.
         Thank you, and I look forward to your questions and our
    exciting future ahead.
         [The prepared statement of Mr. Schingler follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Chairman Beyer. Mr. Schingler, thank you very much, all
    fascinating. And now we'll begin our round of questions. I get
    to go first by virtue of this Chairmanship, so let me begin
    with Dr. St. Germain.
         We just heard from both Mr. Duren and Mr. Schingler about
    all that is happening on the commercial side in terms of data,
    Planet having more satellites tracking what's going on Earth
    than anyone else. How do you feel about and what are your
    thoughts about this ever-growing possible partnership between
    our public NASA and our commercial companies?
         Dr. St. Germain. Thank you for the question. I couldn't be
    more excited--I just muted. There we go. I think we're back. I
    couldn't be more excited about the possibilities enabled by all
    of the growth in commercial Earth observation in both
    directions. I think, as Robbie said, the capabilities that the
    commercial sector is bringing to science are very exciting.
    They absolutely complement our government systems, and they
    expand the scope of the science we can do. And in the other
    direction, Riley talked about bringing NASA technology out into
    the commercial sector to enable future commercial capabilities,
    and I think that is just as exciting. So I am thrilled and
    really looking forward in this position to exploring new ways
    of partnering with the commercial sector. Thank you.
         Chairman Beyer. Great, thank you. And, Riley, you talked
    about, you know, the super-emitters, the methane with that
    great flyover and that only 1/3 of the--2/10 of 1 percent of
    the infrastructures were responsible for 1/3 of the State's
    methane emission. How does that compare to the other greenhouse
    gas emissions from transportation, from buildings, from
    manufacturing? Is methane just a tiny piece of this or if you
    can fix those flares, can you make a significant difference?
         Mr. Duren. Yes, great question. What I like to say about
    greenhouse gases, like many things on the planet, is it's a
    mixed bag. Methane tends to be leaky in the way it manifests,
    and the best way I can describe it as if you have a sprinkler
    system in your yard, you're eventually going to have a leak.
    That doesn't mean that the sprinklers are necessarily spraying
    water all over the place, but when it happens, you know, you
    find out when you look your water bill. If you're lucky, you
    see the geyser shooting up, you know, in the front yard. So
    that tends to be the nature of methane associated with human
    activity, whether it's the energy sector, the waste management
    sector, or even agriculture. It's very--it tends to be very
    leaky, and therefore, it can occur randomly and it's difficult
    to predict.
         That's different generally speaking than some of the other
    greenhouse gas emissions but in particular CO2
    emissions from the transportation sector. Imagine that being
    spread out over freeway systems or through other transportation
    vehicles.
         And so I guess what I would say is your mileage varies so
    to speak, and it is--it's very different by sector. And the
    technology I talked about addresses one part of the greenhouse
    gas monitoring challenge. It really focuses on these leaky
    point sources for methane and CO2, for example,
    stationary power plants. We need a broader constellation of
    systems or system of systems as we like to say in NASA system
    engineering world, to address the full landscape, and that's
    part of what we have between what we talked about with Carbon
    Mapper, NASA's existing program, and programs with other
    international space agencies, as well as commercial actors with
    instruments on the ground, not just space.
         Chairman Beyer. Cool, very cool, thanks. Mr. Schingler,
    you talked about NASA's Commercial Smallsat Data Acquisition
    Program. As you probably know, the Senate folded NASA's
    reauthorization into its Endless Frontiers Act last week. Did
    that include the Small Data--Smallsat Data Acquisition Program?
         Mr. Schingler. To my knowledge, Chairman, that does not
    include this--the NASA Smallsat Data Acquisition Program in its
    current form.
         Chairman Beyer. So we still have a ways to go, OK, great,
    because we're about--hopefully later this year we will take up
    NASA reauthorization.
         And then, Dr. Schmidt, one of the things you talked about
    was the many, many different players you have, and in your new
    role on the Climate Task Force, how do you coordinate all these
    people that want to be part of providing information on climate
    change?
         Mr. Schmidt. Thank you very much for the question. Yes,
    no, that's a real challenge, and as I've stepped into this new
    role, that has really been the dominant theme of what we've
    been doing. We've been bringing together all of the people who
    are working with external partners, and we're trying to collate
    that information and we're going to make that more visible and
    then we'll be able to see I think where the gaps are, where the
    successes are, and where we may be able to roll out a broader
    use of the information and data that NASA provides.
         Chairman Beyer. It sounds like the invasion of Normandy,
    but good luck, so----
         Mr. Schmidt. Thank you.
         Chairman Beyer. Well, my time is up. Let me now recognize
    our Ranking Member, Dr. Brian Babin.
         Mr. Babin. OK, thank you very much, Chairman Beyer. I want
    to say thank you to our witnesses as well. I appreciate you
    being here.
         Mr. Schingler, your testimony highlights issues with the
    Landsat architecture in a recent instrument study pre-
    solicitation. Please allow me to read from your testimony.
    ``Unfortunately, the commercial community is receiving mixed
    messages from the Landsat Next program at NASA and USGS.
    Recently, material and unexplained changes and inconsistencies
    between the Landsat Next instrument study pre-solicitation
    published on February the 18th, 2021, and the Landsat Next RFI
    published on October 13 of 2020 suggests that rather than
    looking for novel new approaches to meet and exceed the Landsat
    Next mission requirements, the NASA Landsat Next team has
    predetermined the constellation and instrument structure for
    Landsat Next. In the most recent instrument study, NASA
    included requirements that respondents to the study assumed
    prescribed and specific orbital attitude and minimum swath
    width that favor a more traditional and expensive architecture
    toward large satellite designs. Such prescriptive requirements,
    particularly in the early study, will limit innovation in the
    Landsat Next architecture, constraining what NASA may learn
    from the instrument study and may ultimately restrict the
    Landsat Next mission to coarser spatial resolution and lower
    revisit rate. These outcomes are likely to negatively impact
    the Landsat user community and result in an inefficient use of
    U.S. taxpayer resources. The effect of such requirements during
    an instrument study could be to limit the possible responses or
    offerors and predetermine the instruments and architecture for
    the Landsat Next system,'' unquote. Can anything be done, Mr.
    Schingler, to ensure an unbiased solicitation, or will it
    require legislative action? Thank you.
         Mr. Schingler. Thank you for the question, and I think by
    highlighting the benefits of what has already happened with
    NASA on the commercial side with the Commercial Smallsat Data
    Program and the scientific utility that's coming out of that, I
    think it can better inform the program office in how they come
    about procuring the next generation of systems for Landsat. And
    for the Committee to recognize, this is something to be
    launched later on this decade. We do need to think about 5
    years ago what was available and what can be available 5 years
    from now.
         As we are seeing also with the European Union Copernicus
    program and their planned upcoming constellations, we should be
    thinking about these, as Riley was saying, as a system of
    systems, which is what are the needed data gaps that allow for
    these free and open data sources provided by governments to be
    interoperable with one another. It is no one sensor that is
    necessary for us to have the data necessary for climate action,
    but it--instead, it is something that is about interoperability
    and looking for reference data sets that other data sources can
    be available for.
         And so at this early stage of a procurement strategy, we
    do urge this Committee and NASA and USGS to open up the
    aperture and to consider more novel and innovative approaches
    toward the next-generation Landsat Next program.
         Mr. Babin. OK. One more question for you, Mr. Schingler.
    Your testimony also mentions the commercial remote-sensing
    regulatory process. Since you also sit on the advisory
    committee for commercial remote-sensing, what can NASA do to
    aid the Department of Commerce in the interagency process that
    reviews new remote-sensing technologies?
         As noted in the last advisory committee meeting, despite
    the new streamlined regulations, American companies are still
    forced to be second place in many areas of commercial remote-
    sensing and prohibited from offering anything not on the market
    without significant, often crippling conditions being placed on
    their operations, real quickly, please.
         Mr. Schingler. Yes, the advisory committee for commercial
    remote-sensing met a couple of weeks ago, and there was an
    excellent briefing from a national geospatial intelligence
    agency colleague who articulated a leaderboard across all the
    remote-sensing capabilities globally. And if you play it back
    over time, you could see how other nations are accelerating in
    taking over leadership for commercial remote-sensing
    capabilities.
         Last year, NOAA did a great job in shifting a bit of the
    approach toward regulatory process. There's still more to be
    done. It should be more than just what is commercially
    available today but forecasting where things are going so that
    American competitiveness can continue to excel in the global
    marketplace.
         Mr. Babin. OK. I see my time's expired. I had one for Dr.
    St. Germain, but we will submit it in writing then. So with
    that, Mr. Chairman, we will yield back. Thank you.
         Chairman Beyer. Dr. Babin, thank you very much.
         Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
         Chairman Beyer. I now recognize the Chair of the House
    Administration Committee, Ms. Lofgren from California.
         Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for this
    wonderful hearing, which I think is instructive to all of us.
         Dr. St. Germain, it's my understanding that the Earth
    Science Divisions Applied Sciences Program used to have a
    dedicated wildfire program, wildland fires program, and that
    had been created because of an identified need, but it was
    concluded in 2017 because it didn't have enough money to keep
    going. Now, we have an increasingly prolonged wildfire season
    in the United States, certainly in my State of California, but
    not just in California, all over the United States. And we've
    got devastating wildfires that are being experienced. Is it
    important or valuable to have dedicated programs to tackle some
    of our biggest climate challenges and targeted appropriations
    to support this work in your judgment?
         Dr. St. Germain. Thank you for the question. Today, we
    provide a lot of support for wildfire, both prediction and
    disaster response. We support that through two of our programs.
    One--both out of our Applied Sciences Program. One is the
    Ecological Forecasting Program, and the other is the Disasters
    Program. And just to give you a sense, in 2020 we supported six
    Disasters activations in support of wildfires in the Western
    United States.
         I think there are a number of ways that we can manage
    these things, and there are always choices, right, and those
    choices have an impact on the synergies we can take advantage
    of. I'm always open to looking at alternative ways of managing
    the--our programs and continually reevaluating them in the
    context of their effectiveness.
         Ms. Lofgren. Well, you are all the scientists, not us, but
    I'm interested in making sure that we are making the
    appropriate investments in wildfire R&D (research and
    development) work. And if it's not a specialized division,
    then, you know, what other portfolios need to be enhanced? You
    know, right now, there are people being evacuated down in the
    Los Angeles basin. We had--you know, a number of people lost
    their lives in Paradise, California, in Doug LaMalfa's district
    last year, so I'm just interested in what needs to be enhanced
    in terms of prediction. And also, as you probably know, the
    Governor of California just announced a big investment in fuel
    reduction, but it seems to me that the preventative efforts
    could be greatly enhanced through this whole observation
    program. What are your thoughts on that?
         Dr. St. Germain. The--let's see. Today, we work--when--in
    our wildfires work, we work very closely with our interagency
    partners, NOAA, for example, as well as responders on the
    ground. We had--as I said, we can always look at ways to do
    that better, and I'd like to actually give that some thought
    and take the question for the record and come back to you with
    some ideas.
         Ms. Lofgren. I would appreciate that very much because
    obviously there's fighting the fires, but this is not--this
    drought that we have is not going to--it's not a temporary
    situation. This is a permanent situation, and the steps that
    we're going to need to take to prevent the catastrophic spread
    of fires is something that needs to get our attention not only
    at a State and county level but at a Federal level, so I would
    appreciate that advice.
         And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
         Mr. Schingler. Congressman--woman, may I respond to that?
         Ms. Lofgren. Oh, that would be lovely, thank you.
         Mr. Schingler. Excellent. Yes, so there is a fantastic
    program that's called the California Forest Observatory that
    was launched last year, and it is a combination of aerial lidar
    data with Earth observation data from----
         Ms. Lofgren. Yeah.
         Mr. Schingler [continuing]. Space to quantify--and weather
    data to then understand wind patterns and quantify the fuel
    load. What this does is it allows for Cal Fire (California
    Department of Forestry and Fire Protection) to be able to
    understand where the risk is and forecast where things can go.
    This is just a pilot project, as it is right now. It is working
    and operational, but it is--the technology behind it is
    scalable to the rest of the country.
         In addition to that, there are some other government
    sensors that detect infrared signatures that are extremely
    useful not just for national security, which is its primary
    purpose, but also for understanding fire, fire spread, and
    hotspots. And being able to have that data more easily
    accessible to our firefighters on the ground is something that
    would be really welcome.
         Ms. Lofgren. That's great information. Maybe the two of
    you can talk after this hearing, and I'm--I don't want to abuse
    my time, Mr. Chairman, so I yield back.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren, very much.
         I now recognize the Ranking Chairman of the Full
    Committee, Mr. Lucas.
         Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
         Mr. Schingler, your company has been around for a decade,
    and you've partnered with NASA and other Federal agencies
    during that period. How has NASA's approach to commercial
    providers changed over that time or has it?
         Mr. Schingler. Thanks for the question. Yes, thank you for
    the question. And honestly, it might be a bit of my heritage,
    but NASA is the most forward leaning of all the government
    agencies in partnering with commercial companies.
         You can see this picture behind me is actually taken from
    an astronaut from the International Space Station in 2014 when
    we first launched our first fleet of 28 satellites. And over
    time, as we mentioned with the Commercial Smallsat Data Pilot
    Program now hopefully an upcoming operational capability is
    extremely promising.
         And then also, as Riley was mentioning with the Carbon
    Mapper program, we are at the scale and support right now that
    we are looking to transfer some of the cutting-edge technology
    from NASA that can then be applied for an operational
    capability, and that's what Carbon Mapper is all about.
         So NASA is only accelerating with its adoption and
    partnership with all that America has to provide in not only
    solving additional climate change challenges but then also
    bringing it to the rest of society.
         Mr. Lucas. Well, continuing down this vein, how can the
    Committee help spur increased partnerships between NASA and the
    commercial data providers in the future?
         Mr. Schingler. Well, my main recommendation is to--for
    this Committee in particular is to put into statute for the
    Commercial Smallsat Data Acquisition Program and to robustly
    fund it. There are many companies just like Planet. There are
    about a half-dozen or so that are operational and about two
    dozen or so that are coming up. The more that governments can
    partner with emerging commercial players, they--those
    commercial players, if they have a customer, they listen to
    them. They want to please them, and they will upgrade their
    services to meet their needs. And so I think by creating that
    program and then opening up the aperture to allow for NASA
    scientists to find scientific utility rather than to prove it
    from a procurement strategy is part of how we can think through
    creating new program offices.
         Mr. Lucas. Continuing with you, Mr. Schingler, NASA has
    for years partnered with other agencies. I think of USGS and
    NOAA on Earth observation activities. Currently, those
    partnerships consist of NASA developing new satellites and
    instruments, which are then operated by the other agencies. Do
    you still view this as the most productive and cost-effective
    model?
         Mr. Schingler. I think there are definitely scientific
    signatures that need to be collected that can only be done by
    national labs and that are necessary not just for science but
    also for commercial. You know, we use some of the signatures
    that we get from NASA and NOAA satellites for interoperability
    for our data sources. However, many of our legacy programs can
    be upgraded to go further out and to do the harder thing and to
    allow for operational services to then be provided by
    commercial players such as Planet and others. So I do think
    that there's a great opportunity to look at program offices not
    just for the specific data that they're trying to do but what
    is that signal that they're actually sending to the market in
    order to stimulate innovation and to think about it across
    industry, academia, and government programs together.
         Mr. Lucas. Well, along that line, from your perspective,
    what kind of adjustments in the model that we're using now--
    mechanically, what do we need to look at on this Committee to
    improve that model along the lines of what you were discussing?
         Mr. Schingler. Well, I have two suggestions. One--besides
    putting into statute the Commercial Smallsat Data Program, one
    suggestion is to have a portion of that that allows for a NASA
    scientist to innovate with whatever is out there. And so that
    is one way to accelerate that. And the second is to partner
    with prototypes. Instead of doing operational missions and
    science-grade PI- (principal investigator-) led programs, to
    think through and expand the in particular Earth Science
    Venture program to allow for there to be public-private
    partnerships that then allow for much more of these hosted
    payloads to happen on the--not just about once every 2 years
    and a new mission once every 2 years but to allow for that
    happened on the order of 6 months. The industry is there to
    ready to partner with NASA on this, and this is something that
    NASA and this Committee should consider.
         Mr. Lucas. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, my time is
    about to expire. I yield back.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Lucas, very much.
         I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Governor
    Charlie Crist.
         Mr. Crist. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
    witnesses for being with us today.
         Under the Biden Administration, NASA's science missions
    will play a critical role in informing the Federal Government's
    efforts to combat climate change. One of the most significant
    climate change impacts that Florida faces is the increasing
    frequency of severe weather, specifically, hurricanes and as
    well as other tropical storms.
         Dr. St. Germain, could you discuss the role that NASA's
    Earth observations play in weather forecasting, and could the
    prediction of these observations be used to improve weather
    prediction on capabilities?
         Dr. St. Germain. Thank you so much for the question. So of
    course, as you know, NASA partners with NOAA to build NOAA's
    operational weather satellites, and we also partner with NOAA
    and other agencies to advance modeling and data assimilation.
    That happens primarily through the Joint Center for Satellite
    Data Assimilation. We augment those observations and
    capabilities with smallsat technologies like CYGNSS (Cyclone
    Global Navigation Satellite System), RainCube, TEMPEST-D
    (Temporal Experiment for Storms and Tropical Systems--
    Demonstration). These are all small demonstration missions that
    brought additional data to bear and are particularly
    interesting for tropical cyclones and point to a path of more
    affordable observations.
         In addition to that, about 1/3 of our 45 disaster
    activations last year were associated with weather and in
    particular tropical cyclones. So--and then all of that of
    course is underpinned by our Research and Analysis Program in
    weather and atmospheric dynamics. So across our whole Earth
    Science Division from technology to science to exploratory
    science to applied science, we are supporting the advancement
    of weather prediction and warning capability.
         Mr. Crist. Thank you. The 2020 Atlantic hurricane season
    was the most active and the fifth-costliest Atlantic hurricane
    season on record. Again to you, Dr. St. Germain, given the
    increase in frequency of severe weather events and the
    resulting risk to human life and infrastructure, can you
    discuss what the next generation of sensing and imaging
    capabilities looks like, especially as they relate to weather
    prediction?
         Dr. St. Germain. Yes. So, of course, as you know, NOAA is
    formulating its next generation of weather observation
    capabilities, particularly in geostationary orbit, and NASA's
    future observing systems will be aligned with the
    recommendations from our decadal survey, which of course
    characterize the most important observations to make to achieve
    both climate change--advance climate change understanding, as
    well as weather-related understanding. So the primary missions
    associated with the decadal survey are, of course, the aerosols
    convection--clouds convection and precipitation observations.
    Those will be looking to move forward on to answer some of
    those really fundamental questions. And actually I think
    probably Dr. Schmidt may have something to say on this topic as
    well.
         Mr. Crist. Doctor?
         Mr. Schmidt. No, I think you actually covered it pretty
    well----
         Dr. St. Germain. OK.
         Dr. Schmidt [continuing]. Sorry.
         Dr. St. Germain. OK.
         Mr. Crist. Would any of the other panelists like to
    comment on this?
         Mr. Schingler. When it does come to increasing our
    understanding of extreme weather, it is a combination of a
    variety of data sets. Different types of microwave sounders
    from space, also ground-based and in addition to land
    monitoring systems, so Landsat models are included in that, and
    that is something that NOAA should look at, which is including
    in other types of land monitoring data sensors to allow for us
    to have better models.
         The other thing that is extremely promising about this is
    the power of cloud computing and machine learning on top of
    these aggregate disparate data sets together that allow for us
    to have a better understanding for what's about to happen. So
    as these data are all activated and interoperable with one
    another, we will be able to better anticipate what's about to
    happen not just for weather but also for other types of land-
    use change.
         Mr. Crist. Great, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
    I see my time is about to expire, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I
    yield back.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congressman Crist.
         And now let me recognize the Congressman from Cape
    Canaveral, Mr. Posey.
         Mr. Posey. Thank you very much, Chairman Beyer, and I
    appreciate you holding this hearing on the current roles and
    future opportunities for NASA's Earth science.
         Mr. Schingler, China is aggressively pursuing remote-
    sensing capabilities and offering them on the commercial
    market. I'm just wondering what we can do to ensure that we
    remain the leader in commercial remote sensing.
         Mr. Schingler. Thank you for the question. Over the last 5
    years, as I've mentioned in my testimony and my verbal
    statement, there is a renaissance that's happening in Earth
    observation, and it has been led by U.S. companies and
    companies across Europe. Over the last 4 years, that has been
    eclipsed by a number of Chinese companies that are very well-
    funded and very well-supported across academia and the Chinese
    Government.
         We are competing in a global marketplace, and what makes
    American entrepreneurship great is that we look for global
    products in market-making industries, bring them to society,
    and then we upgrade them. And it's trusted. So I do think that
    the foundation that we have inside American industry will
    thrive and grow this new frontier economy, but it definitely is
    a challenge.
         Some of the things that are being brought up right now is
    to really embrace U.S. commercial industry and purchasing the
    services that exist today, knowing that there's a partnership
    for it to be upgraded over time. And this is something that
    that we have not seen fully embraced inside the DOD (Department
    of Defense) and the IC (intelligence community) community.
         And I can say again that NASA has been an early adopter
    into this, and we look forward for this to expand, but that's
    the main thing is to partner, is to be a lighthouse customer,
    not the only customer, but to be a customer of U.S. commercial
    industry, and they will rise up, and they will solve the needs
    of tomorrow.
         Mr. Posey. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Schingler.
         Dr. St. Germain, I'm particularly worried about China, as
    many of us are, through state-owned enterprises investing in
    new private climate satellite companies in order to influence
    the information they receive. Can you tell us how NASA might
    not only validate the new data coming from these nongovernment
    satellites but also any intentional or unintentional biases
    that can emerge from it?
         Dr. St. Germain. Thank you for the question. So NASA
    doesn't have any direct bilateral collaboration or work
    underway with China, but we do have a lot of multinational
    partnership work underway and in fact we lead multinational
    organizations such as the Committee on Earth Observations, and
    our primary focus in those leadership roles is to expand and
    really underscore open science and the trust and transparency
    that goes into the--understanding those measurements and their
    scientific integrity.
         And so I think where we can really contribute here is
    leading in that international arena, along with our commercial
    partners, to underscore the importance of transparency and
    trust in the data that we're using and create that expectation
    internationally.
         Mr. Schmidt. Might I add something to that answer?
         Mr. Posey. Absolutely.
         Mr. Schmidt. One of the key issues with any new source of
    data is that every new source of data has its own special
    characteristics. One might call it bias, but they all have
    special characteristics as a function of their orbits, their
    instruments, and how often they're reported. When you put that
    into a data assimilation system, the physics that's been
    embedded within that system tells us whether things are
    consistent, whether things are coherent. And so these systems
    will tend to reject data that is too biased, that doesn't fit
    into how the estimations is thinking that things should work,
    and we can--we are able to detect instruments that are
    malfunctioning. We are able to detect instruments that are not
    properly calibrated by embedding them within a larger data
    assimilation system. And that would be true for data from any
    source.
         Mr. Posey. Thank you very much. I see my time is expired.
    I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Posey. And, Mr. Posey, I'm
    going to ask a second round of questions if you care to hang in
    for that, so you're most welcome to.
         Mr. Posey. OK.
         Chairman Beyer. So let me--Mr. Duren, you wrote that
    there's a real problem in data latency, that you have these
    wonderful people collecting data, and it takes one to three
    years until it's delivered and published in time. How do we get
    over that? You say we need more streamlined frameworks to
    effectively support decisionmaking but that data latency is an
    obstacle.
         Mr. Duren. Yes, sir. Of course, you know, things vary, but
    it's generally the case that when it comes to greenhouse gas
    emission estimation in general, that current frameworks fall
    into one of two buckets. Bucket one is conventional greenhouse
    gas inventories that are compiled by--typically by nation
    states but increasingly some subnational jurisdictions, and
    those methods use fairly tried and true publicly available data
    that we call activity data, things like how many vehicle miles
    traveled, how many cows, how much coal is bought and sold, and
    then these regulatory agencies like the Environmental
    Protection Agency, apply emission factors that generate an
    annually aggregated, nationally aggregated accounting of all
    greenhouse gas emissions by sector and by gas. As you can
    imagine, that process takes time. In many cases those
    inventories lag by a couple of years, and so they're trying to
    get it right but they're not necessarily fast.
         And the other bucket are experimental advanced science-
    based measurements using atmospheric measurements from a
    variety of techniques, not just satellites but surface
    measurements. And NASA and many other agencies, NOAA, and
    experts from around the world in academia are advancing that.
    NASA's own carbon monitoring system is pioneering that, many
    projects that are advancing that, but these are experimental in
    nature, and to the extent that they do produce data more
    quickly, they don't do it for very long. They typically last
    about 3 years, these pilot projects. And they also tend to be
    very focused in individual areas. So the need to operationalize
    climate data, in particular greenhouse gas data, means also
    addressing this latency problem. And there are ways to
    accelerate it mainly by providing some engineering and machine
    learning and automation and software engineering to speed these
    processes up and, most importantly, sustain them so they're not
    just one-off research programs. So we need to expand the
    research to operations gap.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much.
         Mr. Schingler. Chairman----
         Chairman Beyer. Mr. Schingler----
         Mr. Schingler. Yes, please.
         Chairman Beyer. Yes, go ahead, please.
         Mr. Schingler. May I comment on this?
         Chairman Beyer. Yes.
         Mr. Schingler. So the latency is really all about speed to
    information, helping people make better decisions. And, I mean,
    we are so connected here and we get pushed information
    constantly. And really if you unpack that infrastructure that's
    put in place across cell towers and so forth, that
    infrastructure is now going up into space, right? So we will
    have over the next few years real-time connectivity via space-
    based orbiting assets. We will have satellites that then in
    space take pictures of the Earth and tap into that so that you
    have a real-time understanding of what's happening.
         The other major trend that's happening is something that
    is in the Internet of Things world or edge computing, which is
    where you collect information you do some compute right where
    it is so for things that happen that have some public interest,
    so, for instance, in Riley's program at Carbon Mapper, if there
    is a methane leak, which is really toxic for public health,
    that could be detected on board and immediately informed to
    first responders.
         And so these are some of the things that are happening
    today across infrastructure that's going into space that allows
    for real-time understanding of the planet at the speed of
    decisionmaking for public health but then also for commerce.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much. And, Dr. St. Germain,
    lots of talk about all the different data. What's NASA's policy
    on NASA-supported Earth science data in terms of archiving, in
    terms of free and open access, and availability to the public,
    including raw data? And how do you maintain that policy,
    including conformance to the World Meteorological Organization
    data policies with our non-Federal partners?
         Dr. St. Germain. Thank you for the question. Yes, NASA has
    a full and open science data policy. All of our data are freely
    available, and we are really pushing to advance that with not
    just availability but real discoverability and putting the data
    in the same ecosystem as the computation capability and the
    models and the applications. So that's all part of our plan to
    accelerate our delivery of actionable information.
         In the context of commercial data, of course, we negotiate
    with the commercial data provider on the terms of a user
    license, and that can--in the early going, in the NASA
    Commercial Data Pilot Program, that was limited to NASA users
    only. But of course when we're talking about open science, we
    want to make sure that other non-NASA-funded scientists and
    other agencies have access, so we're working to standardize a
    set of options for user licenses that can allow us to
    distribute that data more broadly.
         Chairman Beyer. Great, thank you very much.
         Mr. Posey, the floor is again yours for questions.
         Mr. Posey. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I
    appreciate a second round.
         Dr. St. Germain, a real fear is I believe that private
    satellite companies could possibly target facilities,
    industries, competitors, whatever, while ignoring other areas
    and then selectively release information. What would prevent
    these companies from cherry-picking observations to gain an
    upper leg over others that puts their interests first and
    skewing the data that decisionmakers receive and the public
    receives?
         Dr. St. Germain. Let's see. So for the data that NASA
    acquires and----
         Mr. Posey. No, we're going back to China, back to the
    China [inaudible]. I'm sorry.
         Dr. St. Germain. OK. So I think that is a question that is
    probably more--would be more important for operational agencies
    that are--that could make use of Chinese data, but as I said
    earlier, we at NASA don't have--we don't buy Chinese data, and
    we don't have any ongoing bilateral arrangements to use Chinese
    data.
         Mr. Schingler. Representative Posey, it is----
         Mr. Posey. Do others want to weigh in here?
         Mr. Duren. Can I answer that? So I think--yes,
    Congressman, I think this is why Robbie and I and others and I
    know our NASA colleagues would agree that it's important to
    have a global system of systems that's not limited to a
    unilateral actor. Environmental data from Earth observations is
    too important [inaudible] wrong either intentionally through
    bias or by getting it wrong because the science or the
    technology is wrong.
         So I think we are on the verge of seeing an emergent
    global observing system of systems that includes observations
    not just by NASA but also of their international partner
    agencies in Europe and Japan and not just China and also in
    commercial space.
         And so I think the best way to tackle the question you're
    raising is really for an open-skies policy with multiple
    independent observations that can crosscheck and validate each
    other and build public confidence that no single system is
    introducing bias either intentionally or otherwise. And I think
    a good question for this Subcommittee is what's the right role
    of NASA and Federal agencies to help enable that to make it
    work?
         Mr. Posey. Well, listen, I appreciate the good answers.
    Dr. Schmidt, do you want to weigh in?
         Mr. Schmidt. I think that that's very--I mean, what Riley
    said was good. Multiple use of the same place and time from
    multiple instruments gives us a coherent and consistent story
    about what's happening, and that needs to be multi-instrument,
    multi-platform, and multi-companies and multi-sources of that
    data. And I think that the more that we build an infrastructure
    that allows that data to all be kind of part of one thing, then
    we will be able to see things in real time that are anomalous
    or not.
         Mr. Schingler. And, Congressman, to--the commercial
    systems out there are also critically important for that
    overall multi-data source observation that is secure. So, for
    instance, GeoAssurance, what this is called inside of the
    geospatial intelligence community, and if you have problems of
    how you built your satellite and putting it up into space, you
    know that it's quite secure, that connection can also be
    secure. And to have pixel-level providence builds trust that
    what you're capturing is truth.
         And as a commercial company that abides by jurisprudence
    and the rule of law, getting all of society on a common
    operating picture so that bad actors can be seen and light can
    be shown, it allows for the fourth estate, media, think tanks,
    and science organizations to actually validate and hold truth
    to power for those who are doing things that are different from
    what they're saying.
         So there is something that is really, really powerful
    about our sector in remote sensing to provide that level of
    transparency to allow for us to have a more secure and
    sustainable world.
         Mr. Posey. Like the news really, we want it to be as
    accurate as possible, and that's not always the case.
         Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding this
    hearing, very interesting, good information. Thank you,
    witnesses, for your input. We really do appreciate it. Thank
    you.
         Chairman Beyer. And thank you, Congressman Posey.
         I'm going to--since we have these wonderful people and we
    don't want them to go to lunch, I'm going to fire one more set
    of questions at them, which you are welcome to stay if you'd
    like, but I understand you have other meetings, too.
         So, Dr.--to Robbie Schingler, you spoke specifically about
    U.S. Federal agencies prioritizing commercial data buys, and I
    guess frustrated with DOD and the IC, but you also talked about
    remote-sensing regulations, launch payload regulations, orbital
    regulations, spectrum regulations all play a critical role in
    our commercial sector's ability to participate internationally.
    Do you think those--that we are overregulated, the regulations
    have gone too far, the commercial industry does not have
    sufficient input in the development of those regulations? Have
    we right-sized it yet?
         Mr. Schingler. Thank you, Chairman Beyer. There are two
    questions in there, the first one around the U.S. Defense
    Department and the intelligence community. I think it's
    important to note that the National Reconnaissance Office more
    or less created Earth observation, and they created
    extraordinary technologies in space that allowed for our Nation
    to understand what's happening in an offset that other people
    did not know how they actually did it, just extraordinary
    stuff, so I do not want to state anything otherwise.
         However, what has happened is that when you have a
    disruptive capability, which Planet and others are a part of,
    it isn't the way in which people are used to the performance of
    the system but a new axes can come out, so, for example,
    timeliness, looking for the unknown unknowns, and those types
    of activities is just not the way that it's been tooled up.
         So there--yes, there has been some frustration on our part
    because we want the government to lean in and find mission
    utility and to actually be a partner for us to upgrade those
    services to support them.
         So I just want to more or less state is that we're doing
    the best that we can as a commercial partner. And also I do
    believe that the government program offices are also doing the
    best they can within their constraints. And that's where
    oversight can come in, to really help see are there any blind
    spots that we have in our overall strategies? So that's No. 1.
         No. 2 about regulation, regulation is--I actually said
    this at a conference a couple of years ago, but it's actually
    like a really hot place to be in because you're shaping
    markets. You don't want to go too far out in front, but you
    also don't want to hold back innovation. And so it's something
    that allows--that is a constant dialog, so having these
    advisory committees really does support and help.
         But of the biggest challenges that we have today, it is
    going to be RF, remote frequency challenges, sharing of that,
    as well as orbital debris. And we do need, as a global
    community--and it could be led by the United States--a space
    traffic management capability that allows for freedom to
    operate and space security. This is going to be a challenge
    over the coming decades, and it's something that we should not
    wait in order to come up with, with a good solution.
         So I would say in some cases there are some constraints
    around industry, probably for some very good reasons, but some
    might be for legacy reasons, and so that's where the advisory
    committees can come in to try to show those blind spots to the
    regulators.
         Chairman Beyer. Great, thank you very much. Mr. Duren and
    Mr. Schingler, the importance of free, unrestricted, and open
    data sharing as part of the Federal Government's research and
    development activities is paramount, so is your data, the raw
    data in your agreements, in contracts with NASA either through
    the Commercial Small Data--Smallsat Data Acquisition Program or
    arrangements for Carbon Mapper available to the public freely,
    openly, no restrictions?
         Mr. Duren. Yes, I'll start and then I'm sure Robbie can
    chime in. So Carbon Mapper is a nonprofit, and we have a public
    good mission to make methane and CO2 data freely and
    publicly available globally. And so the approach that we've
    established is that Carbon Mapper will stand up a global data
    portal that maintains a running stream of methane and CO2
    data to the public that includes the best possible quality
    control and uncertainty quantification that is also underpinned
    by independent validation by the California Air Resources
    Board.
         We didn't talk about it in detail, but California's role
    in our public-private partnership is they will get access to
    all of the methane CO2 data collected over
    California immediately, and they'll send people out in the
    field to do ground-based follow-up on it if you will to help
    certify it and validate it so that it has broader trust
    globally and ideally adoption.
         The other thing to understand about the public-private
    partnership and the way that our vision of how to monetize the
    buildout and sustainment of the system is that it is dual use,
    so there is a commercial arm to this, and it's enabled by the
    NASA technology. The imaging spectrometers that were designed
    by NASA JPL actually cover the full spectral range from the
    visible wavelengths through the shortwave infrared, and that
    allows us not just to detect and quantify methane CO2
    emissions, there are dozens of other environmental indicators
    on the land and in the oceans that Planet is free to
    commercialize. And so it's this dual-use program where Planet
    can commercialize other applications while serving Carbon
    Mapper's public good mission and actually sustain the program
    through a revenue share back to the nonprofit is part of what's
    innovative about this, and we think it will help address one of
    the challenges we face with Federal programs, and that is
    continuity. How do you keep these observations going once you
    start them?
         I guess I'll now hand it over to Robbie and maybe you can
    add.
         Mr. Schingler. Yes, I'm super excited about this program.
    It is a really unique public-private partnership, and so hats
    off to Riley and to Karen for actually pulling this together.
         It's not just continuity, but it's upgradability, right?
    It's collecting the needed information that's needed not just
    for today and that we know of but also where things are
    actually going. An example of this around open data versus
    commercializable data are a couple of programs that we've
    pioneered in the last couple of years, and it's under a broad
    rubric that we called digital public goods.
         And so one example is what we've done with Norway. So
    Norway has been a longtime supporter of a U.N. program to
    reduce submissions of deforestation. And we entered into a
    project with them after 4 years of validation that opens up a
    monthly cloud freebase map of 64 tropical countries around the
    world that's available to the forest reprograms inside all of
    those countries to allow for people to be on a common operating
    picture to curb deforestation and, importantly, it allows for
    those nations to get access to payments from the World Bank for
    not chopping down their forests. And so this is a good example
    of--it's all based on our commercial data. We created a higher-
    order data product and then a specific license to allow for
    public benefit to happen while we also still had the ability to
    sell similar types of data, put it into a different format,
    then to serve those to our over 600 enterprise customers that
    we have around the world.
         So that's one specific example that we have done
    successfully, and that model came into the formulation of
    Carbon Mapper as a nonprofit where we deliver the data to
    Carbon Mapper, and then they deliver a higher-order data
    product, almost like a weather service for methane and CO2
    emissions to the public as a digital public good.
         Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much, very, very
    encouraging.
         So let me wrap up with one last question for Dr. Schmidt,
    although you're welcome to add to that, too. You are the
    supervisor on climate for the NASA Administrator, the very
    pinnacle of our climate change efforts. Is there any hope? Do
    you have any shot at keeping at 1.5 percent centigrade by 2050
    or the end of the century?
         Mr. Schmidt. One and a half degrees centigrade, that's a
    very hard question. There are pathways that would keep us below
    that by the end of the century. There aren't that many pathways
    that prevent us from going above that in the short term because
    of the inertia in the--both the climate system, the oceans, and
    in our societal responses.
         But, you know, there are a lot of activities going on, and
    there are a lot of very, very promising activities at all
    levels, the Federal, regional, local, and international level
    that are pushing us in that direction. The targets and the
    plans that people have put in through the Paris Agreements for
    their nationally determined contributions to cutting emissions
    are getting closer to the 2 degrees target, and the ratchet
    mechanism that was built into the Paris Agreement seems to be
    working. People are seeing what can be achieved and then trying
    to look into doing better.
         And so I don't think it's totally hopeless, but I think it
    is clear that we do need to prepare for more climate change to
    come. The exact number, speaking personally, the exact number
    that we end up with is not--you know, nothing particularly
    terrible happens if you go from 1.5 to 1.55 or 1.6, but what we
    know is that the impacts are ratcheting up, and they are
    increasing exponentially as we continue to warm the planet. And
    so we're always going to be in a situation where we could be
    doing better, but it's never the case that we should be giving
    up on making better decisions.
         Chairman Beyer. Mr. Duren?
         Mr. Duren. I just wanted to chime in quickly. We get this
    question a lot, especially on the greenhouse gas mitigation
    topic, you know, is it too late. What I would say is there is
    still time and an urgent need to act quickly. The window is
    closing, and you can look at the Biden Administration's recent
    commitment to cut, you know, U.S. greenhouse gas emissions by
    50 percent by the end of this decade. We're well into this
    decade already.
         I do think that it is an all-hands-on-deck moment for not
    just the Federal Government but all government branches,
    private sector, and civil society. And it's not too late to
    act, but I think we could do a lot more as a society to take
    advantage of all the resources at our disposal.
         And I know we've been talking in this hearing mainly about
    our Earth observations and NASA data, but I want to add another
    aspect of NASA that is part of the Federal capability, and that
    is NASA's engineering and program management capability. You
    mentioned in your opening statement moonshot. That's brought up
    frequently in regards to the climate response of this country
    and others, and I think that that is a minimum an analogy of
    what kind of effort mobilization is needed. And I think there's
    that can and should be done in engaging all of the resources of
    the Federal Government that right now are constrained by
    institutional limitations. NASA fits over here in this part of
    the ecosystem and the other agencies do that. And I realize
    that it's unrealistic to call for a whole-scale reorganization
    of government, but I think there is creativity needed and
    resources that are still untapped within agencies like NASA
    that can do more than deliver satellites. And so I--that's
    something probably beyond the scope of this hearing, but I just
    want to throw that out there is there's more we could and
    should be doing.
         Mr. Schingler. And to echo on that, Chairman Beyer, this
    is an opportunity for the U.S. Government to provide leadership
    across the entire Federal Government, just like what Riley is
    saying. We have the National Space Council. That should have a
    strong voice for climate. It should encourage the Office of
    Space Commerce within the Department of Commerce, the climate
    envoy, and commercial players to be part of this overall
    solution. It is a system of systems. NASA has a systems
    engineering approach to it. NASA has been playing with this
    data, understanding climate as it has happened, and that
    technology can really be useful for us to understand what we
    can do about it.
         The most encouraging thing I see in tackling the problems
    of today is the fact that Larry Fink, who is the CEO of
    BlackRock, who has over $6 trillion under management in his
    last three statements have said that climate risk is investment
    risk. If we take a look at the global markets and the amount of
    money that is going toward so-called ESG funds or
    environmental, social, and governance funds, the market is
    shifting. We do--and we need to ride that wave and shift it in
    order for us to live sustainably on this planet.
         So this is an all hands on deck, and it's not just
    government. It is industry. That--those are the incentives that
    will actually drive consumer behavior and corporate behavior.
    So I'm encouraged by it, but we do need to accelerate our
    activities.
         Chairman Beyer. I think for anyone who's listened to the
    last hour and a half plus, they have to be encouraged by the
    capabilities of our four witnesses today and all the things
    that you're doing, so thank you very, very much for being here.
    Thank you for your good work on behalf of all of humanity, and
    we hope you will come back to talk with us often.
         So let me just say that the record will remain open for
    two weeks for additional statements from the Members and for
    any additional questions the Committee may ask of the
    witnesses.
         So if there is no objection, the witnesses are excused,
    and this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you, and have a great
    day. We'll see you soon.
         [Whereupon, at 12:36 p.m., the Subcommittee was
    adjourned.]

                                    Appendix

                                  ----------

                       Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

                       Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

    Responses by Dr. Karen M. St. Germain

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    Responses by Dr. Gavin Schmidt

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    Responses by Mr. Riley Duren

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    Responses by Mr. Robbie Schingler

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