[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                 REAFFIRMING THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

       SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE, ENERGY, THE ENVIRONMENT AND CYBER

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 5, 2021

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-34

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
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                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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                    COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

BRAD SHERMAN, California              MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking 
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey                  Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia	      CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida	      STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
KAREN BASS, California		      SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts	      DARRELL ISSA, California
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	      ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
AMI BERA, California		      LEE ZELDIN, New York
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas	              ANN WAGNER, Missouri
DINA TITUS, Nevada		      BRIAN MAST, Florida
TED LIEU, California		      BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania	      KEN BUCK, Colorado
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	      TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota		      MARK GREEN, Tennessee
COLIN ALLRED, Texas		      ANDY BARR, Kentucky
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan		      GREG STEUBE, Florida
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia	      DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania	      AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey	      PETER MEIJER, Michigan
ANDY KIM, New Jersey	              NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
SARA JACOBS, California		      RONNY JACKSON, Texas
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina	      YOUNG KIM, California
JIM COSTA, California		      MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
JUAN VARGAS, California		      JOE WILSON, South Carolina
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas		      
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois              


		      Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
	       Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director

                                 ------                                

        Subcommittee on Europe, Energy,the Environment and Cyber

                   WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts, Chairman

ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia         BRIAN FITZPATRICK, 
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania              Pennsylvania, Ranking Member
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey		     ANN WAGNER, Missouri
THEODORE DEUTCH, Florida	     ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	     BRIAN MAST, Florida
DINA TITUS, Nevada		     DAN MEUSER, Texas
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	     AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
JIM COSTA, California	             NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, NEW YORK
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas		     PETER MEIJER, Michigan
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois	    


		 Leah Nodvin, Staff Director

                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

McWilliams, Monica, Emeritus Professor, Transitional Justice 
  Initiative, Ulster University..................................     9
Morrice, Jane, Member of the Board of Governors, Integrated 
  Education Fund.................................................    18
Reiss, Hon. Mitchell, Commissioner, Independent Reporting 
  Commission.....................................................    27
Neal, Congressman Richard E., United States House of 
  Representatives................................................    55

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    58
Hearing Minutes..................................................    59
Hearing Attendance...............................................    60

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    61

 
                 REAFFIRMING THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT

                         Wednesday, May 5, 2021

                          House of Representatives,
  Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the Environment, 
                                         and Cyber,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:06 a.m., 
via Webex, Hon. William R. Keating (chairman of the 
subcommittee) presiding.
    Mr. Keating. The House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee will 
come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to 
declare a recess of the committee at any point; and all members 
will have 5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and 
questions for the record, subject to the length and limitations 
of the rules.
    To insert something into the record, please have your staff 
email the previously mentioned address, or contact full 
committee staff.
    Please, keep your video function on at all times, even when 
you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible 
for muting and unmuting themselves, and please remember to mute 
yourself after you finish speaking.
    Consistent with House Res. 965 and the accompanying 
regulation, staff will only mute members and witnesses when it 
is appropriate, and they are not under recognition, for the 
purpose of eliminating background noise.
    I see that we have a quorum present, and I will now 
recognize myself for opening remarks.
    Pursuant to notice, we are holding a hearing today entitled 
``Reaffirming the Good Friday Agreement.'' I cannot recall one 
instance meeting with Irish officials when the sincere 
gratitude for what they term to us, the indispensable U.S. 
involvement in the Good Friday Agreement was not expressed. 
That is why a year and a half ago, I held a meeting before this 
subcommittee on implications of Brexit for Northern Ireland and 
the Good Friday Agreement, as well as possible paths forward in 
implementing the Northern Ireland Protocol.
    As we all know, the Northern Ireland Protocol was a key 
point of controversy within Brexit. This protocol was 
established in order to ensure that the United Kingdom could 
exit the European Union's common market without creating a, 
quote/unquote, ``hard border between Northern Ireland and the 
Republic of Ireland.''
    With Brexit now behind us, we are seeing the impacts of the 
withdrawal play out at shipping ports, in unstocked 
supermarkets, on the streets of Northern Ireland. The 
complicated components of the withdrawal agreement, the effects 
of the COVID-19 pandemic, and underlying economic instability 
in the region have converged to create a very difficult 
environment.
    Unfortunately, in the last few weeks, we have also seen a 
resurgence of violence across Northern Ireland, involving young 
people, 12 years of age, born more than a decade after the 
signing of the Good Friday Agreement. While this violence may 
have been sparked in the process of implementing the Northern 
Ireland Protocol, it is truly rooted in historic divisions.
    After a period of relative stability and positive direction 
following years of peace-building efforts, this recent violence 
stopped many of us in our tracks, myself included. This is 
because clashes between groups in Northern Ireland have been 
incredibly dangerous in the past. Northern Ireland has already 
mourned the loss of more than 3,500 lives, many of whom were 
civilians during the violence and chaos, commonly known as The 
Troubles.
    While recent violence has slowed, it has also reminded us 
that peace in Europe is not something to be taken for granted. 
It is a status of life that we constantly work toward and 
buildupon. For this reason, I have called this hearing to 
reflect on, and reaffirm the Good Friday Agreement, and better 
understand the underlying tensions and the current situation on 
the ground.
    The Good Friday Agreement was signed 23 years ago, on April 
10, 1998. To come to this agreement, representatives and 
activists in Northern Ireland, and the United Kingdom, came 
together to discuss paths forward. The United States played a 
key role, with former U.S. Senate Majority Leader George 
Mitchell, chairing the negotiations. Since then, many of us 
here in Congress, led by Chairman Richie Neal, have continued 
to support the progress that has been made under this 
agreement.
    Now, in the face of renewed violence, I have called this 
hearing, invited founding members of the Northern Ireland 
Women's Coalition, a group who played integral roles in the 
Good Friday Agreement negotiations, and have continued to be at 
the forefront, advocating for representation and dealing with 
the past.
    The Northern Ireland Women's Coalition was established in 
1996, to ensure representation of women at the Good Friday 
Agreement negotiations. These women were bound by a common 
vision as well as values of inclusion, equality, and human 
rights.
    After just a few weeks of incredibly intense political 
organizing, the Coalition was successful in sending two 
delegates, including hearing witness Monica McWilliams, to the 
negotiations. Incorporating both Catholic and Protestant 
voices, their efforts ensured representation and community 
engagement in many countries, and including our own.
    As we look forward and we look at the strife around the 
world today, I join many people in pointing to the peace 
agreement as a means of hope, as a beacon for potential peace 
throughout the world. As the landmark Women, Peace, and 
Security Resolution 1325 underscores, when women are involved 
in peace negotiation, agreements have been proven to be more 
effective and last longer. And the Good Friday Agreement is no 
exception to this.
    Through the inclusion of diverse voices during the peace-
building process, and thanks to the courageous and vital work 
of the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition, and especially the 
founding members here with us today, the agreement is stronger 
and more comprehensive, and still serves as a bedrock for peace 
in Northern Ireland.
    We hold this hearing today because of the integral role of 
the U.S. in the Good Friday Agreement, because it is a U.S. 
priority, and because we must not just deal with The Troubles 
of today, but, also, deal with the issues of full 
implementation going forward. With that said, we will hold this 
hearing to allow us to better understand the process, the 
longstanding implications of the Good Friday Agreement in the 
present day.
    With that, I am going to recognize for his opening 
statement, Representative Brian Fitzpatrick.
    Mr. Fitzpatrick. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairman 
Keating. Thank you to our esteemed witnesses today, who were 
instrumental in ushering peace and stability in Northern 
Ireland. The United States remains committed to supporting the 
hard-won progress made in Northern Ireland since the Good 
Friday Agreement and helping Belfast achieve a prosperous and 
lasting peace.
    Ireland and Northern Ireland hold a dear place for me, and 
the people of Pennsylvania that I represent, and I know the 
people that everyone on our committee represents. For me 
personally, my grandfather migrated from the border region, and 
my father helped found the Irish-American Cultural Society in 
my hometown.
    The Good Friday Agreement, forged, in part, by individuals 
in this room, is one of the greatest diplomatic success stories 
of the 20th century. Violence deescalated, trade and tourism 
swelled, and the people of Northern Ireland, from different 
communities, sought out a path to a future that would bring 
lasting peace. The agreement called for the signers to affirm 
their commitment to the mutual respect, civil rights, and 
religious liberties of everyone in the community.
    Just as the United States was present to facilitate the 
negotiations that achieved the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, 
the U.S. Government must continue to push for the agreement's 
full implementation and the consolidation for peace.
    Former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell's role, in 
brokering the peace talks, established a strong example of what 
U.S. support and interests can achieve. Toward that end, I look 
forward to hearing from our witnesses on how the United States 
can best support efforts in Northern Ireland to foster peace 
and reconciliation.
    I am thrilled that we will hear today from the Honorable 
Mitchell Reiss, who I hope can expand on the importance of the 
United States appointing a special envoy to Northern Ireland, a 
role he once held.
    Moreover, I look forward to hearing from the witnesses on 
the remaining threats to peace and prosperity in Northern 
Ireland. I hope that they will address the drivers of the 
recent riots and violence that erupted in Northern Ireland 
earlier this year.
    It is especially important to understand to what degree 
Unionist discontent with the new post-Brexit arrangements drove 
the violence, when compared to other factors, including 
frustration caused by COVID-19 lockdowns and poor socioeconomic 
conditions.
    The United States, and the U.S. Congress, must remain 
committed to sustaining the peace process and generating cross-
community engagement and economic opportunity in Northern 
Ireland.
    Moreover, we must work with the U.K. government, the Irish 
government, and the EU to ensure the trade frictions resulting 
from the implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol are 
resolved, and that all communities in Northern Ireland can reap 
the economic benefits of the peace dividend.
    I also hope our witnesses will address the enduring threat 
of parliamentarianism, and how the United States can support 
efforts to disarm and disband these organizations. We are 
fortunate today to have two members of the Independent 
Reporting Commission, which was established to address 
parliamentarianism in Northern Ireland, to provide their 
insights on how to eradicate this threat that imperils the 
legacy of the Good Friday Agreement.
    We are experiencing a highly polarizing time on Capitol 
Hill. There are many things that divide our friends across the 
aisle from all of us. But when it comes to a commitment to 
peace to Northern Ireland, Members of both parties can stand 
completely united.
    It is my hope today that Congress can learn from our 
witnesses how the United States can continue to support the 
implementation of their peace-making strategies moving forward.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you for calling the hearing today for 
an issue that is near and dear to my heart. I look forward to 
the discussion. And I yield back.
    Mr. Keating. I thank the ranking member for his comments, 
and also for the bipartisan spirit he demonstrated in those, 
and to really send a signal to everyone, that on the issue of 
Ireland, that we are together across the aisle.
    And I would also like to thank all our witnesses for 
joining us today. As founding members of the Coalition, you 
have been on the ground since the days of the negotiations, and 
have continued to be the forefront of transitional justice, 
disbanding paramilitary groups, and integrating education and 
representation into the political structure that is there 
today.
    Your testimony will help us better understand the 
longstanding impacts of the Good Friday Agreement, and how we 
can move beyond Brexit, and beyond the pandemic, to ensure 
stability that lasts for generations to come. As Members of 
Congress, we continue to support the work you have set out to 
do, ensuring inclusion, equality, and human rights in Northern 
Ireland.
    Professor Monica McWilliams is an emeritus professor at 
UlsterUniversity's Transitional Justice Initiative and 
Commissioner for the Independent Reporting Commission. She is a 
former Chief Commissioner of the Northern Ireland Human Rights 
Commission, former member of the Legislative Assembly of 
Northern Ireland, co-founder of the Northern Ireland Women's 
Coalition, and a signatory to the Good Friday Agreement.
    Ms. Jane Morrice is a member of the Board of Governors at 
the Integrated Education Fund. She is a Deputy Speaker of the 
Northern Ireland Assembly, former head of the European 
Commission Office in Northern Ireland, and co-founder of the 
Northern Ireland Women's Coalition.
    Ambassador Mitchell Reiss is a Commissioner for the 
Independent Reporting Commission. He is also a former United 
States Special Envoy for Northern Ireland.
    I will now recognize the witnesses for 5 minutes each.
    If I could, I would like to ask unanimous consent because 
Mr. Sires, as a chairman, will be leaving. If I have unanimous 
consent, I would like to recognize him for a brief statement 
before he has to leave with his duties as chair of Western 
Hemisphere.
    Mr. Sires, do you have, without objection, any introductory 
comments?
    Mr. Sires. Well, thank you very much. What I wanted to say 
is, my first trip, or one of the first trips I ever took from 
becoming a Congressman, was to Northern Ireland. And for me, 
being Cuban, when I got there, the whole thing was really an 
eye-opener for me.
    One of the things that was most vivid to me is when we got 
there, they put us in a bus and took us across this bridge 
where they had made a temporary basketball court. And I saw 
kids, both Protestants and Catholics, playing.
    As we gathered around talking to the kids, no sooner did we 
get there, 20 minutes later, the bus driver came over and put 
us back in the bus and said, Look, we have to leave. I said, we 
just got here, why? He said, Well, because at 8 o'clock, they 
close the bridge, and we had to get back to the other side. So 
that, to me, was like really moving in the sense that there was 
still so much division.
    And my concern now is, do we have anybody that took the 
steps that Bill Clinton took, or Mitchell took, to try to 
tamper down the violence, or what is going on there now? And 
obviously, I have a lot of concern what Brexit is going to do 
to this peace that was so long in coming that was worked out. 
So that is what I wanted to say. You know, I am sorry I have to 
leave, but, you know----
    Mr. Keating. Well, thank you. Thank you, Chairman Sires, 
and thanks for your perspective. And it is one more lesson, and 
one more example, given your work as chairman, Western 
Hemisphere, how the example of peace in Northern Ireland still 
gives hope to so many other parts of the world. Thank you.
    I will now recognize the witnesses for 5 minutes each. And, 
without objection, your prepared written statement will be made 
part of the record.
    Professor McWilliams, you are now recognized for your 
opening statement.

      STATEMENT OF MONICA MCWILLIAMS, EMERITUS PROFESSOR, 
       TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE, ULSTER UNIVERSITY

    Ms. McWilliams. Thank you very much, Chair. And I am 
delighted to participate in this hearing today. As you just 
heard, I was a signatory to the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.
    And it has not only saved lives over the past 23 years, but 
it was the basis for us to build future stability on the island 
of Ireland, north and south, and to build strong relationships 
between us in Northern Ireland, Southern Ireland, and the U.K., 
as well as making our connections with the rest of Europe. And 
it has been an example, a good model of conflict resolution for 
the rest of the world.
    And I would like to put on the record here today my 
acknowledgement of the consistent expressions of support for 
the Good Friday Agreement by U.S. political leaders, and you 
yourselves today, from across the political-aisle, and the 
attention constantly and consistently paid to the 
implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol and the new 
Trade and Cooperation Agreement resulting from Brexit.
    The next 4 years could prove to be quite difficult and 
contentious times for us. This year, we have the centenary of 
the partition of Ireland. We also have the 50th anniversary of 
internment without trial this year, the 40th anniversary of the 
Republican hunger strikes this year, the Assembly elections 
next year, at the very latest. And, indeed, there is the 
Assembly vote on the Protocol coming in 2024. And the census 
will be published shortly, which may also determine the demands 
for a-_ referendum to be held on Irish unification.- That 
referendum was, indeed, part of the agreement.
    So all of that is lying ahead of us, and this is, 
potentially, a perfect storm that needs judicious and careful 
handling, and the continued interest of you in the United 
States.
    First, let me turn to the issue of protecting rights and 
equality. Many civic society groups and organizations are very 
concerned at the impact that Brexit is now having on the 
protection of the rights and equality provisions that were in 
the Good Friday Agreement, and particularly, the interest that 
the European Union had in protecting those rights, and the 
legislation that was included as part of us being in the 
European Union.
    It is little wonder now that we have these concerns, 
particularly that no breaches of human rights and equality 
should occur, as they were contributory factors to the long-
running conflict that I lived through.
    And, so, it is really important that we continue to ensure 
that Brexit does not affect this, that the current review of 
the Human Rights Act that is currently being undertaken by the 
U.K. Government does not affect this, nor, indeed, the Trade 
and Cooperation Agreement that has, indeed, weakened some labor 
rights and environmental rights and have raised those concerns.
    So, the Bill of Rights that was promised in the Good Friday 
Agreement is still outstanding. As Chief Commissioner of the 
Human Rights Commission, over 13 years ago, I presented that 
advice, with my fellow Commissioners, to the U.K. Government, 
and there it sits on 10 Downing Street ever since.
    As a result of the recent negotiations between the parties, 
they agreed that there should be a Bill of Rights Committee 
established at the Assembly. And it is good to see all those 
parties now sitting around the table discussing this much-
needed issue, in terms of the future provisions of human rights 
and equality.
    But the agreement did not ask me, nor my fellow 
Commissioners, to find consensus before we presented that 
advice on the Bill of Rights, and that remains a continuous 
concern, that there may not be consensus found at the local 
level in Northern Ireland. But the U.K. Government still needs 
to hold up its promise to legislate on the Bill of Rights, 
particularly at the time that we are now leaving Europe and 
given the context of Brexit. So that is the first point that I 
would like to make.
    The second is in relation to the issue of inclusion. The 
Women's Coalition stood on three principles: equality, human 
rights, and inclusion. And back then, it was mostly political 
inclusion; but today, we are concerned about the issues of 
economic and social inclusion.
    And perhaps, indeed, the recent disturbances on the street 
reflect some of that in that many people, particularly many of 
those in the Unionist community, perceive themselves to have 
been left behind. And I do think that these perceptions 
sometimes can become reality. And, therefore, we need a much 
clearer analysis of the potential positive opportunities for 
remaining in the EU single market, especially for people who 
feel that their communities have lost out on investments and 
jobs and training and education.
    It is also good to see, however, the amount of good work 
that has been invested at the interface levels, at the hot 
spots in the disadvantaged areas, by youth workers, by 
community workers, by community leaders and civic leaders. And 
I observed it myself over the recent month.
    And I pay tribute here to the International Fund for 
Ireland that invested so much in making sure that that the 
dividends of their work in community development paid off, and, 
indeed, it did. And I was also pleased to see the church 
leaders standing together at the interface, showing their 
solidarity across the religious denominations at a time when it 
was most needed, and at the height of those disturbances. That 
is all good for peace.
    And, as we know, peace-building involves communication, and 
it involves the building of trust. And also, there is an 
initiative called Politics in Action in schools. And today, 
these young people across Northern Ireland will be watching 
this particular hearing, and taking an avid interest in the 
United States' interest and the Members of Congress' interest 
in Northern Ireland.
    All these initiatives with young people are much needed. 
And, indeed, one of the concerns recently has been that the 
programs for young people during the summer are closed. And we 
continue to need diversionary programs to be invested in, and 
therein lies the good funds of the International Fund for 
Ireland.
    And one of the concerns, of course, recently, was this 
issue of using social media to gather young people quickly into 
a riot situation. And so to prevent them from going to prison, 
or for prosecutions at such a young age, we need to pay careful 
attention to how we can prevent social media being used in this 
way, and, indeed, many fake accounts that were opened to just 
simply call people out onto the streets.
    There is a serious issue in relation to identity and, 
again, it also needs attention. And I address that issue in my 
statement.
    And I finally want to bring attention to some of the points 
that are still outstanding. The issue of the legacy. There was 
an agreement called the Stormont House Agreement, and I am 
aware that my colleague, Mitchell Reiss, will pay more 
attention to that.
    But there is an urgent need for the U.K. Government not to 
work on a unilateral basis, but to consult and to stop the 
delay in addressing the needs of victims, which, I have to say, 
the Women's Coalition actually put a proposal into the peace 
agreement, because in any conflict situation, the needs of 
victims must also be addressed.
    I am involved in Operation Kenova Governance Board, and, I 
have to say, it is an excellent example of how investigations 
can be carried out with legitimacy and with human rights' 
compliance.
    There were some concerns over how policing in the community 
may have reverted in recent years. I am very happy to say that 
the Policing Board, that consists of both politicians and lay 
members, independent lay members, is a model for policing. And 
it stayed in place and its oversight was much valued during the 
recent months.
    And, finally, the mixed messages that have come from 
particularly the U.K. Government on Brexit must stop. There are 
potential positives in this for Northern Ireland, but they have 
been undermined by those very mixed and occasionally very 
negative messages.
    Finally, the Civic Forum. Civic dialog in Northern Ireland 
has proved essential to peace-building, and it is much needed. 
The Civic Forum was shut down. There should in addition be 
District Council Forums established. The reinsertion of the 
Civic Forum, as promised in the Agreement, should now be 
implemented.
    So, I would ask that the continuous involvement and 
interest from the U.S. Congress be maintained in the 
implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, particularly in 
relation to issues of the Bill of Rights and the legacy, and 
also, in relation to any expertise or support that you may give 
us in relation to that work with young people, and, 
particularly, around how badly social media can be used.
    And last, I would strongly urge the appointment of a U.S. 
Envoy, who proved in the past to be absolutely crucial and key 
to helping us with our peace process. Given the special 
circumstances now arising from Brexit, this is a person who is 
much needed in terms of maintaining the contact on social and 
economic policies between Brussels, London, Dublin, Belfast and 
Washington, DC.
    Thank you very much for allowing me to participate in the 
hearing today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. McWilliams follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Keating. Professor, thank you very much for your 
comments, as a signatory and someone that will give us 
perspective, generational perspective going forward.
    I now turn to Ms. Morrice, and you are now recognized for 
your opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF JANE MORRICE, MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS, 
                   INTEGRATED EDUCATION FUND

    Ms. Morrice. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Can I begin by saying thank you, America, for your 
dedicated commitment to the Good Friday Agreement.
    I want to start by setting out my stall. I was born in 
Belfast. I was a teenager when The Troubles started. And I have 
been working for peace and stability for decades, particularly 
through the work of the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition.
    I can say that the day of the signing of the Good Friday 
Agreement was the greatest day in my professional life. The day 
of the Brexit referendum was, without question, the worst. So 
if you do not mind, I want to focus on that subject, because 
that is my area of expertise and experience.
    Since Brexit, I have become a relatively rare breed in my 
country. I am a strong supporter of the European Union and I am 
from a Unionist community background. And that is why I call 
myself a European Unionist. Constructive ambiguity I think that 
is called.
    I have been opposed to Brexit since the outset, because I 
firmly believe that the European Union membership enabled peace 
in Northern Ireland to happen. And, of course, the role of 
America was, and still is, vital. But if we are talking at the 
grassroots of bringing communities together, the European Union 
PEACE Program was vital to that end.
    Saying that, I am actually willing to accept the Protocol 
as the best of a bad Brexit deal. The problem, obviously, is 
the majority of Unionists do not think likewise. But I am a 
firm believer, as Monica well knows, in constructive, creative 
compromise, and I am going to put four proposals to the 
committee.
    The first is regarding the Protocol, is to lobby for the 
extension of the Protocol to Scotland. This seems to be a very 
simple idea to a complex problem. It would mean most of the 
customs checks would move from the Irish Sea border to the 
Scottish border with England. Bringing Scotland into the 
equation would put paid to the Unionist/Loyalist argument that 
Northern Ireland has been cut adrift from the rest of the U.K., 
and their British identity has been diluted.
    Of course, a lot will depend on the outcome of the Scottish 
elections tomorrow, but this new, what I am calling Celtic 
Protocol, could serve as a starting point for an association of 
Scotland, Ireland, and Northern Ireland, working together in 
the EU single market, customs union, similar to the Benelux 
countries, which were actually the founding members of the 
European Union.
    My second proposal is--Monica has mentioned it--for the 
reinstatement of the Civic Forum. Now, that is a commitment 
under the Good Friday Agreement that we in the Women's 
Coalition got in there, and it is vital that it be reinstated. 
When I say that, I would appreciate Americans lobbying for 
that.
    The Irish Citizens' Assembly have had tremendous success 
preparing for a referendum on social issues, but a political 
union isn't prepared to take part in all Ireland civic 
discussions; so, I think they wouldn't refuse if the Civic 
Forum was doing that.
    Third is the need for better engagement with the south of 
Ireland, in the south of Ireland with the Unionist community in 
the north. The Irish decision to keep Erasmus and the European 
Health Card is a great step forward, but there needs to be more 
communication on this subject. For example, the availability of 
someone who wants a hip replacement. It takes 3 years' waiting 
list in the north, where they can get it in 3 months in the 
south, and it can be reimbursed by the British National Health 
Service. People need to know about that. Student exchange also, 
Erasmus north side would be a very good idea.
    My final point--and this is one referring specifically to 
yourselves--is for greater cooperation between the United 
States and the European Union to promote reconciliation in 
Northern Ireland. Now, during the peace process, you, the U.S., 
took a top-down approach, involving Presidents and the 
Clintons, in an exceptional effort to bring people together. 
The role of Senator George Mitchell and the Clintons and the 
White House Saint Patrick's Day events are but a few examples 
of U.S. diplomacy and political power at its best.
    The EU approach, as I said, was bottom up, through its 
multimillion-pound PEACE Program, its funds coming together at 
grassroots organizations on a cross-community, and cross-border 
basis. And interesting to note, they have agreed to continue 
this program beyond Brexit.
    So, in concluding, I want to dwell on that final point in a 
little more detail. The Good Friday Agreement brought peace and 
an end to sectarian violence on our streets, but genuine 
reconciliation is still a very long way off. That is the area 
we need to focus on. The Peace Walls, which still separate 
Catholic and protestant communities, are the most visible 
example of segregation at its worst.
    If the EU and the U.S. would work together to set up a 
specific us and you--nice name--reconciliation fund to promote 
community reconciliation, and there, I would focus on something 
like integrating education, because that I firmly believe--and 
there are many of us who do--is an important area for young 
people to rub shoulders together and learn from each other and 
each other's cultures.
    Integrated education is the way forward, but also mixed 
housing, support for victims, shared understanding. And, of 
course, one of the big roles for yourselves is investment in 
what could be a peaceful, prosperous, brilliant Northern 
Ireland.
    So they say that it takes 30 years. If it takes 30 years to 
make war, it takes the same time, 30 years, to make peace. And 
if that is the case, at the 30th anniversary of the Good Friday 
Agreement in 2028, Northern Ireland could really become one of 
the greatest examples of rare conflict resolution in the world, 
and a place where everyone wants to do business, because it 
will be open to the world.
    Thank you very much. I will stop there.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Morrice follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Keating. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Morrice.
    And I will now turn to our final witness, Ambassador Reiss. 
Thank you for your past service, and you are now recognized for 
your opening statement.

  STATEMENT OF HON. MITCHELL REISS, COMMISSIONER, INDEPENDENT 
                      REPORTING COMMISSION

    Mr. Reiss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the 
subcommittee, for inviting me to testify today.
    Brexit and the Northern Ireland Protocol have caused great 
anxiety over Northern Ireland's constitutional, political, and 
economic future. For many protestants in the north, they have 
also raised fundamental questions over their future status and 
identity.
    However, even if Northern Ireland's status after Brexit is 
settled, there are three persistent challenges that will 
continue to impact its future: paramilitarism, group 
transition, and legacy issues.
    Paramilitarism, in all its forms, is a threat to the 
integrity of the Good Friday Agreement, whether your goal is a 
united Ireland, or the preservation of civil societies and the 
rule of law in both the north and the south. An estimated 
17,000 members belong to so-called Loyalist paramilitary 
organizations alone. To provide some perspective, the 
equivalent number in the United States would be almost 3 
million paramilitary members.
    A purely law-and-order approach cannot end paramilitarism. 
You cannot simply arrest your way out of this problem. This 
approach must be balanced with one that addresses socioeconomic 
deprivation in those communities, where the paramilitaries 
operate, and exert coercive control. These communities suffer 
from educational underattainment, unemployment, poverty, a lack 
of investment, mental health issues and drug addiction. Data 
show there is a direct correlation between paramilitarism and 
this type of deprivation.
    The political leaders in Northern Ireland need to own a 
comprehensive approach, meaning they have to provide the 
appropriate resources, closely supervise the relevant 
government bodies to ensure implementation, and to be 
accountable for its success.
    A second related issue is how to engage with those 
paramilitaries that want to transition to a different 
nonviolent form. There currently is no formal process that 
allows key stakeholders to have a seat at the table and ensure 
that their voices are heard. In the past, London has been more 
focused on other issues and political and community leaders in 
Northern Ireland have been reluctant to engage with alleged 
criminals and convicted felons, for fear of public criticism 
and the political risks involved.
    Such a process is urgently needed, because the 
paramilitaries will not disappear on their own. They are not 
capable of self-transition. Further, time is not on our side. 
The situation is likely to get worse before it gets better. And 
group transition is closely intertwined with the U.K.'s efforts 
to address and resolve a related issue: the legacy cases 
deriving from The Troubles.
    As Professor McWilliams mentioned earlier, the Stormont 
House Agreement in December 2014 established certain principles 
and structures to deal with the legacy of the past. This legacy 
process involves three elements: The first is an oral history 
archive, which serves as a repository of the experiences from 
The Troubles; second is an Historical Investigations Unit, 
which investigates Troubles-related deaths, and may refer cases 
for criminal prosecution; and third, the Independent Commission 
on Information Retrieval, which enables victims and other 
survivors to confidentially receive information the Independent 
Commission has acquired about The Troubles-related deaths of 
their relatives.
    Any information acquired by the Independent Commission will 
not be disclosed to law enforcement or intelligence agencies, 
and will be inadmissible in criminal and civil proceedings.
    There currently is no consensus in Northern Ireland among 
the political parties, or the more than four dozen victims 
groups as to how these legacy bodies should function. One 
reason is because it is unclear whether information about past 
criminality, provided to the Historical Investigations Unit, 
will take precedence over information provided to the 
Independent Commission with respect to possible criminal 
prosecutions. This resulting uncertainty deters paramilitary 
members from engaging with any of the legacy bodies or 
participating in any type of transition process, for fear of 
criminally implicating themselves.
    Finally, I want to endorse the appointment of a Special 
Envoy for Northern Ireland. I believe, like my two fellow 
testimoneys today, I believe the United States can once more 
play a crucial role in helping the people in the north. The 
United States brings a long track record of proven diplomatic 
success, and has the ability to help the political parties, and 
leaders in London and Dublin, with the challenges that I have 
mentioned above.
    Once again, thank you for inviting me to testify today and 
for your time. I would welcome any questions you might have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Reiss follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Ambassador.
    I thank all of our witnesses for their testimony.
    I will now recognize members for 5 minutes each, pursuant 
to House rules. All time yielded is for the purposes of 
questioning our witnesses. Because of the virtual format of 
this hearing, I will recognize members by committee seniority, 
alternating between Democrats and Republicans. If you miss your 
turn, please let our staff know. We will circle back to you. If 
you seek recognition, you must unmute your microphone and 
address the chair verbally.
    I will start by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
    I want to thank our witnesses, and, if you could, I think 
Ms. Morrice has already touched on specifics as the Ambassador, 
too, as well as, to an extent, Professor McWilliams. But can 
you talk to the American public now, and tell them how 
important U.S. involvement is in these negotiations, and 
specifically, how, besides the suggestions in your opening 
statements, U.S. involvement can be crucial, not just in 
dealing with the most recent overflow of Brexit issues, but, 
also, in the longstanding commitment that is not quite yet met.
    So if you could, I will let anyone jump in if they want to, 
but is your chance to talk to the American public as well.
    Ms. McWilliams. Thank you, Chair.
    I will briefly just address that, in that it has been my 
own experience of having Senator Mitchell involved in our peace 
negotiations, but, also, going to the United States over those 
years on a regular basis, and speaking to Congress Members. It 
was incredible how much that was valued back home, but it was 
also incredible that each time we started putting forward 
proposals, we asked, How could the U.S. help us with this? Who 
should we talk to in the U.S. in relation to this? And that 
paid off.
    And for that reason, both the Irish Government and the U.K. 
Government and the Northern Ireland Government all look to the 
U.S. as friends, as good friends, that have helped them to 
build stability along the way.
    And in relation to the EU-U.K. Trade and Cooperation 
Agreement, I think this is crucial in that the U.S. Government 
should make it clear that it expects to see the adherence to 
these standards, in terms of labor rights and social 
protections and environmental standards.
    We have come a long way, and I, myself, know that, as a 
woman who did not have any of those rights until the European 
Union came in, in relation to sex discrimination, equal pay, 
and many other rights. We would not have got those had the 
European Directives not pushed the U.K. Government in that 
direction and, hence, the flow over to Northern Ireland.
    The same applies now. We cannot afford to cut back on the 
rights that are in place. We need to maintain them and sustain 
them. But, likewise, there is a concern that without the 
oversight from the U.S. that that could potentially happen, and 
that, certainly, would be a step backward.
    And the other point that I think is really important, and I 
made it, was that if there were to be a U.S. Envoy, then there 
would be a contact, a regular contact in relation to this 
concern about whether or not this Protocol is positive or not, 
because it seems to be a tennis match going on between the two 
governments. And we cannot afford that, lobbing the ball back 
and forwards. That is feeding into the negativity in the 
community, and these young Loyalists who are taking to the 
streets, believing there is nothing in it for them.
    And, so, it is that third-party person with gravitas, with 
integrity, with honesty, who has acted in that role in the 
past; when that voice speaks up, people listen.
    When I think on the European, positive messages at the 
moment that are turned into such negative ones; and to show 
that if there are technical problems, they can be fixed. And 
that these are not big political constitutional issues that 
they have been turned in to be. And that those negotiations 
with the EU, where there needs to be more slack, where it does 
not have to be so problematic, I think that is also where you 
bring the experience from the U.S. in terms of your trade 
negotiations. And that would be much valued. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating. We have a little over a minute of my time 
left. Does anyone else want to suggest--Ms. Morrice.
    Ms. Morrice. May I come in quickly? Because I think what 
is--to talk to the American people, I think it is very 
important. Irish America is well-known, but do not forget your 
Ulster-Scots roots.
    President Clinton said it himself: Of the 40 million Irish-
Americans, half are Protestant stock. The Ulster-Scots, I 
understand that there are more than a dozen American Presidents 
were Ulster-Scots.
    And, so, there is a brilliant musical called On Eagle's 
Wing, which could be bigger than River Dance, promoting the 
Ulster-Scots legacy, and really lifting, lifting up that 
culture, and putting it on the same level, so making Irish 
America Ulster-Scots America as well.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you.
    Mr. Reiss. Mr. Chairman do I have time for a moment?
    Mr. Keating. Briefly, yes.
    Mr. Reiss. Very briefly.
    So the United States is the most optimistic country in the 
world. We are positive. We are forward-looking. I think that 
sense of optimism is needed in many places, and certainly in 
Northern Ireland. And I think that is the role that the United 
States has played in the past, where we do bring a sense of 
possibility to the conversations.
    The U.K. and Ireland are our friends and allies. It is 
possible to say things to them in private that they need to 
hear, and still have credibility.
    So I think it is the public ability to be positive and 
encouraging, the private ability to tell important messages to 
the two capitals. And I think also, Irish America, many, many 
individuals have played important roles as private citizens, 
and I think all of those can be energized and organized by a 
Special Envoy. And that is why I endorse the Biden 
Administration's appointing one.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Ambassador. Thank our witnesses.
    Now I would like to call on Representative Pfluger for 5 
minutes of questioning. Representative Pfluger.
    Mr. Pfluger. Yes. Can you hear me? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, yes, I can.
    Mr. Pfluger. And I appreciate the opportunity on this 
hearing. Thank you for the leadership.
    To all the witnesses on the panel, thank you for your 
commentary and this important discussion.
    I wanted to ask, Ambassador Reiss, you mentioned in the 
written testimony that an all-of-government approach to address 
the paramilitarism issue in Northern Ireland must incorporate 
not only a law-and-order strand, but also a socioeconomic piece 
to it.
    And I was wondering if you could elaborate on the latter, 
and then maybe address how the United States can help address 
the socioeconomic drivers of the paramilitarism activity and 
what we can do.
    Mr. Reiss. Yes. Thank you for your question. I would also 
like to invite my colleague, Professor McWilliams, to jump in 
on this.
    There are multiple reasons why these communities are 
failing, and I mentioned some of them: educational 
underattainment, lack of jobs, an opportunity to make easy 
money selling drugs, mental health issues. These are areas 
where Protestant paramilitaries, in many cases, most cases, 
these are criminal gangs that are just preying on vulnerable 
families and young people.
    The British Government needs to do a better job of 
comprehensively addressing this issue, in my view, and 
assigning somebody who wakes up every morning, and that is the 
first thing they think about, and holds people accountable.
    Many, many people are doing good work in the government and 
in the communities, but there has not really been that all-of-
government effort that I think is necessary. And it also has to 
be sustained. We know in our inner cities poverty, economic 
deprivation, educational underattainment, these are really 
hard, almost passed down intergenerational problems.
    And so, again, I think that there may be some lessons from 
the United States that we can offer. There are other lessons 
from other parts of the U.K. Scotland and also Limerick in 
Ireland has done a very good job addressing this.
    So, it is not an easy solution, and it has to go hand in 
hand with getting the criminals off the street and prosecuting 
them, and convicting them and then sentencing them for 
reasonable amounts of time. And this has also been a focus, 
that the sentencing guidelines really need to be looked at, 
because I think to most Americans, they would seem very, very 
lenient.
    But I defer to my fellow Commissioner. Professor?
    Ms. McWilliams. I agree. Mitchell has covered most of it. 
It does need a multiagency and multidisciplinary approach. And 
as you know, and anyone who has ever worked with government 
knows that they prefer to work in their own silos at times, 
tackling the problem from their point of view. And, so, health 
does not talk to the economic people or the folk that are 
dealing with education, and the folk that are dealing with 
justice.
    And that is where our Commission comes in and recommending 
what we call a whole-of-government approach, which is really an 
integrated approach. And I think that the International Fund 
for Ireland is a very good example. Though it is not dealing 
with investment, it is dealing with the disadvantaged areas.
    And where you feel, as is the case with other conflicts 
that I work in around the world, where people feel they have 
been left behind, they do not have aspirations, that they are 
politically homeless, then they take to the streets, because 
they have nothing to lose. We need to give them some sense that 
they have a lot to lose, but I do not want it just to be about 
prisons and police, that they are losing the possibility of 
getting a good job, of being well-trained, well-educated. And 
the point that I make in my statement is we cannot leave this 
to the police to do this alone.
    Mr. Pfluger. That is right.
    Ms. McWilliams. They will not succeed. And we cannot lock 
up potentially 17,000, which is the number that we have been 
given of paramilitaries. And this is not a prison problem, 
though for public interest those criminals and gangsters and 
coercive controllers, as I call them, should be locked up. But 
there are plenty of decent good people who want a stake in 
their future, and that is where the United States comes in, as 
it has done over the past three decades.
    Mr. Pfluger. Well, ma'am, thank you very much. And I 
appreciate both of you.
    And quickly, I do have one more question: In the post-
Brexit world, and for anybody that wants to add to this with my 
remaining 30 seconds, how can the United States help encourage 
the U.K. and the EU writ large, to prioritize easing those 
trade tensions that have resulted, you know, from the post-
Brexit arrangements?
    Ms. Morrice. Do you want me to start? Well, first of all, 
they are working on trying to make, obviously, the arrangements 
much more flexible on the Protocol, and encouraging the EU to 
be exactly the same, more flexible on the Protocol, to let 
goods through and flow more easily. However, if Scotland was in 
the Protocol, those goods would be going through Scotland, and 
there would be far, far fewer checks on the borders.
    But the second thing I think is not just to focus on trade. 
I think the EU and U.S. should get together on all these other 
issues as well. And I want to reiterate exactly what both have 
said about economic and socioeconomic issues. The disadvantaged 
areas need investment, need support. And working together, the 
United States and the EU could help do that. Thank you.
    Mr. Pfluger. Well, it looks as though I am out of time. I 
appreciate, again, the witnesses' answers on these important 
subjects.
    Mr. Chairman, with that, I yield.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you very much, Representative.
    The chair now recognizes the chairman of the Middle East 
Subcommittee, Chairman Deutch, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Deutch. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for this 
important hearing.
    Until the formation of the Northern Ireland Women's 
Coalition in 1996, women were nearly absent from politics in 
the region. And in conflicts around the world today, we are 
still seeing underrepresentation of women in conflict 
prevention and resolution. Discriminatory power structures 
continue to inhibit women's full participation in peace-
building processes and the full implementation of the Women, 
Peace and Security agenda.
    Given all of that, Professor McWilliams, let me start with 
you. Why was the inclusion of women in the Good Friday 
Agreement negotiations critical to its success? And what role 
do women play in conflict negotiations in Northern Ireland and 
Europe overall?
    Ms. McWilliams. Thank you for that question. And I am 
delighted that we have got today the U.N. Security Council 
Resolution on Women, Peace and Security. It came in in the year 
2000. We existed in the 4 years prior to that, so we did not 
have it to back us up. So we had to fight our own way to the 
table.
    And we had been around for 25 years before that, despite 
some of the leaders of the other political party saying, Did 
these women fall out of the sky? Of course, we did not. We got 
to the table by getting elected, which showed you the appetite 
for the civic society people to get women to the table.
    We were a small party, but we had equal speaking rights and 
equal input. Had we not been at that table, there would have 
been no provisions on integrated education or shared housing, 
or the Civic Forum, and on resources for young people and 
community development. That is what sustains peace. That is 
what women do.
    When women get to the table, they pay attention to the 
issue of inclusion. They ask, whose voices are not here? Who 
should we be talking to? Where are the gaps? And then we read 
these agreements and we say, does that sustain peace, by simply 
letting people out of prison? By reforming police and criminal 
justice, exceptionally important. By good governance 
arrangements and sharing power, incredibly important. 
Constitutional arrangements, No. 1, exceptionally important.
    But sustaining peace? That takes hard work. As hard as the 
day I signed the agreement at the table, it has taken me 
another two decades to continue, along with all my other 
colleagues, to make it work. What helped us sustain peace? It 
was about those young people. It was about the questions you 
have just asked me in relation to economic and social 
investment. You do not often see those in peace agreements.
    And that, I think if I had to go back to the table, and 
hindsight, is a great person to have at the table. I would have 
worked much harder to ensure that those proposals would have 
been there. But nonetheless, we have now got an opportunity to 
do that. And that is what women do.
    And I am only involved now with women around the world, in 
Colombia and Middle East, and in lots and lots of very tough 
conflict situations. And I want to give a shout-out for the 
leadership that I have seen that women play, at risk to their 
own lives. And we have a program called Women and Communities 
in Transition in Northern Ireland, and they are standing up to 
the paramilitaries. They are saying, if you want to call me an 
informer, go right ahead, but I am going to work with the 
police in arresting these gangsters. They are not going to 
control my life. We know what it is like when we are controlled 
by men who abuse us in our own private lives, and they are not 
going to get away with it in their public lives.
    So it is a combination of that learning and that thinking 
that women bring to the table. And sometimes they are not 
there, and as a result, we lose out on sustainable peace.
    Mr. Deutch. I appreciate that. I am going to join you in 
that shout-out to the courage and the insight and the wisdom 
and the passion brought to the table. I appreciate that very 
much.
    Ms. Morrice, the same question to you. And then also just 
to expand this, we worked to implement the strategy on women, 
peace, and security around the world. What lessons can we learn 
here?
    Ms. Morrice. Thank you very, very much for bringing that to 
me, because, first of all, which is in my notes there, I am a 
member of the Women in International Security, the Brussels 
branch of that, on the Advisory Committee. And they are doing 
very, very valuable work, obviously bringing together the top 
brass women--all too few still--together, and talking about 
these issues.
    And certainly, we are trying to look much, much more into, 
instead of defense and security, also peace-building and 
conflict resolution, the longer-term approach. And that is 
exactly what Monica has said. You know, there are so many 
different aspects to this that are not looked at properly by 
NATO. You know, all this money that goes into defense and 
security, where is the sort of proportion that is the 
equivalent for peace-building? You know, that is so lacking.
    I will give you a quick example. I was in Afghanistan. I 
was with a DUP member and a Sinn Fein member, and we were 
talking to rural leaders, if you like. And I tried talking 
about the role of women in conflict resolution, and I couldn't 
get any sort of reaction at all.
    So at the break, I asked--it was Jeffrey Donaldson actually 
from the DUP who was with me as well. And I said to him, Look, 
this is impossible. Will you do my bit and I will do your bit? 
And he said, Yes. So we went back in, and he talked about the 
role of women in the peace negotiations. And really, the 
dynamic changed in the room. They listened to him. And I talked 
about decommissioning of paramilitary, et cetera.
    And do you see that important point I am making? Men need 
to start pushing this agenda, and that is where it is going to 
help get somewhere. Thank you.
    Mr. Deutch. Mr. Chairman, again, I want to thank you for 
holding this hearing, and thank the witnesses. Truly, truly 
appreciate your participation in it. Thanks.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Chairman. And I thank the 
witnesses. Those are very insightful responses.
    The chair now recognizes for 5 minutes a member who has 
great personal experience in all issues Europe. Representative 
Wagner for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Wagner. I thank the chairman.
    And I associate myself very strongly with the words that 
Ms. Morrice and Ms. McWilliams have just expressed. And I am 
grateful that we are having this hearing. I thank our 
witnesses, truly, for your tireless work to promote peace in 
Northern Ireland.
    I think Congress has been honored to have played a role in 
this peace process, and I believe this body can continue to 
serve as a force for prosperity and dialog and mutual 
understanding.
    Ms. McWilliams, what do you believe were the driving 
factors behind the uptick of violent rioting in Northern 
Ireland this past March and April? And how concerned are you 
that violence will flare up again, as frustration continues to 
rise over Brexit implementation and some of the pandemic 
response efforts?
    Ms. McWilliams. Well, there was a range of reasons. It was 
not just one reason. And one I have already mentioned was the 
people--those in particular Lovyalist communities feeling 
threatened by their identity. And obviously that sense oif loss 
has been pushed politically by a number of the issues which 
have turned out to be technical issues and not political, 
though they are read as political.
    And I do want to emphasize this point, that political 
leaders need to calm things down at these times, instead of, 
perhaps, as on some occasions where they were seen as standing 
back. And, so, those that did speak out--those voices needed to 
be heard.
    Young people need to engage with their peers, and their 
youth workers came in and played a huge role engaging, walking 
the streets at night. And they had a great phone system and 
communication system to break down the rumors and the lies, and 
working closely with the police. Communication was key.
    In other areas, we have discovered that it was--that some 
of the paramilitary leaders were encouraging the young people 
out, and where others were calling out standards of--double 
policing.
    Mrs. Wagner. And let me----
    Ms. McWilliams. They felt the standards of policing were 
coming down on them.
    Mrs. Wagner. And let me followup on that.
    Ambassador Reiss, you sit on that Independent Reporting 
Commission, which is tasked with bringing an end to the 
paramilitary activity and tackling organized crime in Northern 
Ireland. How do you assess the threat posed by the paramilitary 
groups to peace in Northern Ireland, and what more needs to be 
done to end the paramilitary activity?
    Mr. Reiss. Well, I think it is a persistent threat that I 
believe will outlast any settlement of Brexit. It waxes and 
wanes, depending on what is happening politically.
    I think, on the loyalist paramilitary side, they are 
disconnected with any political representation, meaningful 
representation, unlike the Republican side.
    And I think, also, there is just a general contextual issue 
that Protestants, generally, are fearful that they may be 
losing the future. And Brexit is a harbinger of that. There is 
concerns over whether they are being let go and the inattention 
by London. And, so, there is a general sense that maybe they do 
not own the future, that the future belongs to another 
sectarian group.
    This is an amorphous feeling--it is hard to quantify, but I 
think that that it is real for a lot of these folks. And so, 
again, there needs to be a lot of things that are done. You 
have to get the criminal element off the street. You just 
cannot----
    Mrs. Wagner. Yes.
    Mr. Reiss [continuing]. Really do much else_without that 
first step. And there is a smaller--much smaller, in the 17,000 
number, maybe 1,000 core members. These aren't paramilitaries. 
These are criminal groups. They engage in really--you know, 
child abuse, when they are going after young people with 
paramilitary style attacks, which is a euphemism.
    So, there is a lot that needs to be done on the law-and-
order side certainly; but, unless you also follow very closely 
with economic investment, educational issues, all the 
integrated approach that Monica just mentioned----
    Mrs. Wagner. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Reiss [continuing]. Somebody else will fill that vacuum 
with the criminal leaders. And it is difficult. I mean, it is--
look, we do not solve those problems immediately in the United 
States either.
    Ms. McWilliams. Could I add----
    Mrs. Wagner. But I would just--go ahead. Go ahead.
    Ms. McWilliams. Could I add a note of caution here?
    And obviously CNN and the world media pay attention when 
petrol bombs are being thrown at buses. What we needed to look 
at and what the U.S. is good at looking at are the hotspots 
where more of resilience took place.
    There were lots and lots of areas where riots could have 
broken out and did not break out because the community 
investment had been there. The work with the police had been 
there. The youth workers knew exactly who to talk to on the 
other side. The sports teams came out and maintained their 
contact.
    That needs to go on from now on, because we could be 
looking at a very hot summer with bonfires----
    Mrs. Wagner. Uh-huh.
    Ms. McWilliams [continuing]. With unauthorized parades, and 
our usual summers where everyone else gets, like you do, to 
look forward to your summer, we start to dread ours at times 
like this.
    But the positive note needs to be emphasized that there has 
been a lot of good work invested and, as Mitchell says, that 
there has been a paramilitary control that has gone on for too 
long.
    But there are also those who went to prison, who are now 
known as ex-prisoners, and others who have walked away from all 
this, and are acting in a role of civic leadership. So we need 
to continue to talk to them, to talk to young people, and say 
to them, Don't do what we did. The future is not good, and----
    Ms. Morrice. Could I----
    Ms. McWilliams [continuing]. That is the root of what is 
happening.
    Ms. Morrice. Could I come in?
    Mr. Keating. Go right ahead, briefly.
    Mrs. Wagner. Please, Ms. Morrice.
    Ms. Morrice. Just a very quick one again. In the area that 
I live, Down Bangor, writ large, there have been posters that 
have been put up on every--on every street corner and 
roundabout, which shows pictures--and I think I sent it to you 
in my notes--of the EU--of Mr. Sefcovic, the--Biden, Boris 
Johnson, and Michael Martin, and these faces, and underneath is 
written: Nobody is listening to us. Which one do I pick?
    You know, this--I mean, this is them shouting, saying, you 
know, somebody listen, please. And really, Monica said it. We 
need to--we need to find ways that their voices can be heard.
    Now, of course, in our days, you know, the wonderful David 
Ervines of the day, who spoke so importantly about--for his 
people, if you like, you know, there obviously--you know, there 
are elected representatives. There is the Billy Hutchinsons. 
There is people like that, but how do we get to reach out to 
them? The Irish President spoke on the radio recently about the 
need to reach out, you know, and I think there could be a lot 
more being done by America to that end.
    Mrs. Wagner. Great. Well, thank you. My time has well 
expired. I appreciate the----
    Mr. Keating. Yes.
    Mrs. Wagner [continuing]. Chairman's indulgence, and I 
yield back. Thank you. Thank you all.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Representative.
    The chair now recognizes committee member, but also the 
chair of the Transatlantic Legislators' Dialogue, 
Representative Jim Costa, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I have 
enjoyed the perspective that our three witnesses have provided.
    We have talked about the role of the United States, and I 
would like to drill down on that. But, to the last speaker, as 
the chair of the Transatlantic Legislators' Dialogue, we have a 
lot of dialog, as you might expect, with the members of the 
European Parliament. And, given where we are today, post 
Brexit, I would like better insight on where you think the 
European Union, and the Parliament and the Commission will play 
in terms of the changes taking place, and where would you like 
to see a greater focus on the part of our colleagues with the 
European Parliament and the Commission?
    Ms. Morrice. Shall I?
    Mr. Costa. Go ahead, Jane.
    Ms. Morrice. Yes, thank you. Thank you very, very much for 
that question, because that is exactly the direction I think 
the United States should be looking. And, specifically, the 
Parliament, the Commission, and the Council of Ministers. The 
Parliament, now their foreign affairs committee--and, by the 
way, I have sent this--the link to this to Michel Barnier, to 
Mr. Sefcovic, so that they can see that America is actually 
talking about these things.
    And I am very, very sorry that Europe, the European Union, 
isn't doing something similar to what you are doing. I am not 
aware of this being done in Brussels.
    So that is the first point. You know, if they could start--
they are doing great things, but few people know about it. So a 
hearing like this----
    Mr. Costa. What should be their role?
    Ms. Morrice. They should work--you and they should work 
together to promote reconciliation in Northern Ireland. You 
should be--first of all, having to fund things like integrated 
education and mixed housing and victim support.
    And, second, opening up business in America and Europe for 
investment, because, do not forget, in trading arrangements, we 
are going to have--Northern Ireland, as a relative of the 
Protocol, is open to both markets. So isn't that the best 
place----
    Mr. Costa. Does not the EU law also provide supporting a 
framework for guaranteeing human rights, equality, and 
nondiscrimination provisions of the Peace Accord? And 
obviously, there are a whole lot of issues embodied in that, 
from security checkpoints to the other elements of the single 
market, the custom union, the 300-mile border that has 
effectively disappeared.
    How are things at the border these days, would you 
describe?
    Ms. Morrice. Well, certainly, the border in Ireland has 
been nonexistent, except for the ping on your mobile phone when 
you go across, and it is still the same. And that is hopefully 
the way it will be in that sanctioned Good Friday Agreement.
    And I do not know whether, Monica, if you want to come in 
on sort of the justice issues with the----
    Ms. McWilliams. Yes. Yes. The free movement across the 
border would be impossible if there was not, because people 
live in the border towns, and they work on the other side.
    And it was the EU, let us not forget, that was the single 
European market that opened up the border in my day. We used to 
be stopped at the border for hours and searched, and then, of 
course, the Army came in and had its Army towers, and you 
certainly knew when you were crossing the border. You would 
hardly know that today, and that was a result of both the peace 
agreement, and continued as a result of the European Single 
market.
    But, in relation to the justice issues, people are confused 
here. We will remain as part of the Council of Europe, and, of 
course, the Council of Europe is where the European Convention 
on Human Rights comes into play.
    But the concern is--and I mentioned it--that the U.K. 
Government is now reviewing that act, that was part of the Good 
Friday Agreement, which is the Human Rights Act, which we 
proposed should be incorporated into domestic law. And it was, 
and came into effect in the year 2000.
    That is the very piece of legislation that is now being 
reviewed at Westminster, because there are those who do not 
want those convention rights. They see Europe as having too 
many rights and regulations that does not allow its own 
government to have freedom, and it has a great belief on this 
issue of sovereignty, and therefore, it should be able to 
decide by itself what rights to include.
    Now, that would be a step back. That would be reverting on 
what was agreed, and so, that is the concern about the review 
of the Human Rights Act at Westminster, and the absence of a 
Bill of Rights in Northern Ireland, which would have 
incorporated the right to be British, Irish, or both. It is 
more of an aspiration, when it should have been a guarantee 
from the Good Friday Agreement, but it has never been 
incorporated into law. And that is what should be clarified in 
a Bill of Rights.
    And, so, it is those extra rights that weren't in the 
European convention that was--that are in the peace agreement 
that have been left hanging out there, and have never been 
legislated on. So that is why----
    Ms. Morrice. Can I speak on that?
    Ms. McWilliams [continuing]. It has become such a concern.
    Ms. Morrice. This is probably one of the most important 
things that has been overlooked and I would like to stress, and 
your help would be great in this.
    Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement, we are, as Monica 
says, British, Irish, or both, which means every single citizen 
in Europe and Northern Ireland is entitled to be a European 
citizen. They do not have to be Irish. They can be British 
European as well.
    So we have all the rights already, and we will always keep 
the rights that every European citizen has. And that is 
something that isn't talked about nearly enough, because it is 
such a huge advantage for us here.
    Mr. Costa. So, my time has expired, but, Chairman Keating, 
this is probably something that, in our future conversations 
with our colleagues and the European Parliament, we ought to 
put on as a--an agenda item in terms of their foreign policy 
committee and get their take on what their future participation 
is going to be on this important issue.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Representative. Thank you for your 
leadership on the Dialogue. Also, I agree with you. If you 
could schedule that on, I think, given the comments of the need 
for economic opportunity, cooperation, and resources, those 
kind of joint efforts would be important. So thank you for that 
suggestion. It would be great if you follow on up and did that.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating. Appreciate your work and your questions.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Brad Schneider for 
5 minutes.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Chairman Keating, and I want to 
thank our witnesses for spending your time with us today and 
sharing your thoughts and perspectives.
    One of the things that struck me in reading the testimony, 
then hearing the talk today, is, you know, the uncertainty, the 
anxiety about the future. Someone talked about owning the 
future. I guess--and maybe I will start with Ms. Morrice.
    What does it mean, looking to the future, trying to find an 
inclusive future, how do we best do it? And what role might the 
United States play to best facilitate that?
    Ms. Morrice. That is definitely the million-dollar 
question, I think, you are going to struggle with the future. 
Exactly. This is--this is the issue of the constitutional 
status of Northern Ireland in the future, is the biggest 
question that we face here.
    And, actually, while--while obviously the talk is about, 
you know, what--when there will be a referendum on a united 
Ireland, and that is what is helping to increase concerns among 
the unionist, loyalist community of increasing talk about this, 
the fact that--of a referendum even, and the fact that Brexit 
has made that debate much more open.
    I think, where I come from on this, is seriously to put it 
into a new context, and I think Scotland holds the key to this, 
because, tomorrow, we are going to hear whether or not an 
overwhelming majority of people of Scotland want independence, 
and vote for the independent party there.
    So, then, they will eventually get an independent 
referendum. And what happens when or if Scotland leaves? And, 
obviously, Scotland wants to join the European Union.
    So think of Ireland in that context. Think much, much 
longer term, because whatever happens, Scotland--it is going to 
happen in Scotland first. And, so, if we see a Scotland 
leaving, that takes it out of the whole context of the binary 
choice, Ireland, United Ireland, chair of Ireland, et cetera, 
and think about Scotland, Ireland, and Northern Ireland coming 
together in a customs union and a single market.
    You know, is that not a much healthier approach to 
everything? It can bring in orange and green. It can bring in 
our culture, our traditions. And it changes the whole 
narrative. And I would love if that sort of conversation was 
much, much more vocal in our media. Let's get a new narrative.
    Thank you. Hope that helps.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you. And, maybe, I will turn next to 
Ambassador Reiss and your thoughts on the same question.
    Mr. Reiss. The question being what can United States do to 
help with the future of Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Schneider. To give a faith in the future. I mean, you 
know, as I was listening, you were saying, you know, belief in 
the future, resistance to criminality. You know, if those are 
the choices, I want people looking to the future with, as you 
mentioned earlier, an optimism that the future holds bright 
prospects for them.
    Mr. Reiss. Well, I think that the United States showing 
that it cares about Northern Ireland, is invested in its 
future, perhaps personified by a special envoy chosen by the 
President, I think all of that reassures people about the 
future. They have confidence still in the United States.
    Obviously, 40 million-plus Irish Americans, all the 
personal, traditional cultural ties, economic ties, are 
absolutely essential. So, I think it just provides a little bit 
of a safety net that people fear that they won't be let loose, 
that the United States will do the right thing, will make sure 
that it listens carefully to what people want, and can be an 
advocate not just in Belfast, but also in Dublin and London.
    So I think that the United States, being visibly involved 
at this point, is something that is very important.
    And I have to confess, after I left the position in 2007, I 
really thought that it was not needed. I thought that the 
political future could be charted solely by the leadership in 
Northern Ireland.
    I was wrong. I think that, today, that there is a real need 
for the United States to bring its optimism, but also some 
ideas about how we can deal with some of the persistent 
challenges of the north. And I think that would be welcomed, 
not just in the north, but also by Dublin and by London.
    Mr. Schneider. Great. Thank you. And I apologize. I am out 
of time. Professor McWilliams, what I was going to ask you is 
what we could do to reinforce those anchors of resiliency or 
those--I think you said hotspots of resilience.
    Ms. McWilliams. Yes. Well----
    Mr. Keating. Go ahead. You know, we have been pretty 
liberal.
    Ms. McWilliams. It has been a good record so far in terms 
of the International Fund for Ireland as shown in its published 
reports, and the Ireland Funds that also come from the U.S. 
They have invested in youth leadership and in peace leadership 
and peace builders. And that needs to continue, because the 
programs are often from year to year, and as soon as they start 
showing some success, they are stood down.
    So it is really important to look at this in the longer-
term basis, and sustaining those good projects. So the 
resilience is building in. That is always very important in 
terms of peace-building.
    And civic society must be included in that dialog, because 
it does know much better sometimes than the politicians. They 
used to say in Northern Ireland, the people were ahead of the 
politicians on that one. They might say that sometimes in the 
United States. I do not know.
    Mr. Schneider. I was going to say that might be a shared 
principle----
    Ms. McWilliams. Yes.
    Mr. Schneider [continuing]. Probably across the world.
    Ms. McWilliams. Yes, yes. And I would think, on this issue 
of identity, you struggle with it too in the United States. We 
are not alone in that. German American, Cuban American, Irish 
American--Jane has added Ulster-Scots American--and there are 
multiple identities. And not just the binaries.
    As you may know, in the Women's Coalition, we were very 
inclusive in relation to our identities. Some of the women were 
fed up and no longer wanted to identify with those binaries.
    And, so, there is the point. Should we be having more of 
the discussion involving the United States and Americans? Those 
who have struggled with this issue are good at this discussion 
in relation to cultural identity.
    The British identity of those who hold it dearly in 
Northern Ireland somehow now feel really threatened, either 
because of the potential referendum, or because of the--what 
they are referring to as a border on the Irish Sea,--so it is 
not just a focus on the economic question, even if I wish it 
was. It is a question of identity, how they see their future 
identity.
    Mr. Schneider. Sure.
    Ms. McWilliams. And that is why I think, if the U.S. have 
got people who are working on this very closely--and I have 
lived in the U.S. myself. I am a graduate of the University of 
Michigan--where I saw how identity issues were played out, as 
you are seeing too recently on your streets in relation to that 
very issue, about identity and your future identity and your 
stake in the community.
    And during President Clinton's time, the President held a 
huge conference on economic investment. It might be useful to 
even think about holding a conference on this issue of cultural 
identity. And----
    Mr. Schneider. It is a great point.
    Ms. McWilliams [continuing]. Bring those individuals 
through Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Schneider. Well, thank you, Professor.
    And, again, thanks to everyone for your very thoughtful 
response, and, Chairman, thank you for the extra time. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Representative.
    The chair now recognizes for 5 minutes the vice chair of 
our committee, Representative Spanberger.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thank you to our guests who are here today. I really appreciate 
you joining our subcommittee and bringing just your exceptional 
experience to inform this conversation.
    And I do also just want to express my appreciation to Chair 
Keating and all of our witnesses today who have been framing 
this conversation that peace is not just something you reach, 
and then becomes a permanent State. It is something that 
requires continual focus, and it needs to be affirmed and 
reaffirmed.
    And, so, I think, in this effort, it is incredibly 
important for the United States to be supportive and engaged, 
and, so, I am grateful for you spending time with us today.
    Ms. Morrice, I do want to note that in your opening 
statement, when you spoke about a Celtic Union, much like the 
Benelux countries, I felt that was a very interesting comment 
to make. I had previously lived in one of the Benelux 
countries, and I think it is a pretty straightforward 
comparison that may be more broadly understood in terms of what 
it is that you have been speaking of.
    And you also spoke, Ms. Morrice, about student exchanges 
and the Erasmus Program, and, so, I have a variety of things I 
wish to talk about, but that one struck me as really a 
personal, community-focused, person-to-person way of creating 
and affirming peace.
    And so, Ms. Morrice, I was wondering if you could just 
speak a little bit more to your suggestion in that space of 
student exchanges for those who may be watching this hearing, 
and for my other colleagues participating.
    Ms. Morrice. Thank you very much. I certainly will.
    First of all, to note that the incredibly important move by 
the Irish Government to keep Erasmus operational in Northern 
Ireland, and to fund it from that point of view while it has 
been taken away, being replaced by a different system, a curing 
system in the rest of the U.K., that is the No. 1 excellent, 
excellent opportunity.
    Now, that means that--and, by the way, I was an Erasmus 
student in 1976 in France, but it was not Erasmus in the day. 
It was EU funded. And my--30 years later, my son was the same 
in France as well. So, it is this hugely valuable--one of the 
best tools the European Union has, in fact, to promote 
interchange, cultural interchange.
    So normally, it means students going and living either 
anywhere in the European Union for a year, or even they can go 
abroad, America, Japan. People have done it. So that is a vital 
way of discovering a new culture, a new country.
    But my suggestion here--and thank you for bringing it up--
is that actually Ireland operates, if you like, a mini internal 
Erasmus, and starts offering places for northern students down 
south for a year, and southern students up north for a year. 
And, you know--and, I mean, maybe there will be some Erasmus 
students who say, No, I want to go to the south of France or 
somewhere.
    But, honestly, if you think--if you think in terms of the 
island, that would be a very, very healthy way of people--of 
the getting to know you better, which is vital in the north-
south siege, I believe.
    By the way, I would also--before I left Brussels, I was a 
member of the European Economic and Social Committee, which is 
the civic form of Europe. And, in that, I suggested the 
European Parliament propose free transport for pensioners 
throughout Europe.
    There are certain countries--certain countries, like 
Luxembourg, already do free transport for pensioners, but to 
have that Europe-wide, wouldn't that be an exceptional way of 
bringing--of letting older folk, who desperately need minds 
opened--you know, not all, of course--but, you know, what a 
wonderful way of getting exchange if you had free transport. 
And I think that would include Northern Ireland, too.
    So they are a bit of ideas, but I love getting the 
opportunity to put them out there. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much.
    I find this so fascinating, because, particularly with 
students in student exchange, it provides such an opportunity 
to uncover and understand that sometimes, the differences that 
might create tensions are, in fact, not nearly as profound as 
we may have thought.
    And so, to continue on my next question, I will direct it 
again toward you, Ms. Morrice, or toward Professor McWilliams. 
Focus on engaging underrepresented communities. I know this was 
really central to the work that you all did with the Northern 
Ireland Women's Coalition. And so I am curious, can you discuss 
a little bit the importance of this type of engagement for 
maintaining and strengthening peace? And how do these efforts, 
in your view and experience, prevent violence? And, also, 
simultaneously strengthen democratic institutions?
    Ms. Morrice. Do you want to start, or shall I, Monica?
    Ms. McWilliams. Go ahead, Jane.
    Ms. Morrice. Well, first of all, by the way, something I 
left out in my original answer to your question was Cooperation 
Ireland is doing a lot of work in that, and I always like to 
give a bit of a shout-out to certain people or things who are 
doing good work in this area. So that is a very valuable one.
    Now, the question you are saying is underrepresented 
communities. Well, I suppose--I suppose I will talk about 
women, because that is the one I certainly--we certainly have 
experience of. And, you know, I do--I am a firm believer, if we 
have got 50-50, where it should be, in all levels of 
decisionmaking, and the public and private sector, you know, 
that does get balanced. It is so simple to recognize, and I 
cannot see why it isn't understood.
    Now, positive discrimination might be a step too far, but 
even things like gender pay, that pay balance.
    And, by the way, here is going to be a very important one 
in this that I do not think anybody has been properly looking 
at. There is a huge gender pay gap, right, and you are talking 
20 percent Europe-wide.
    Ms. Spanberger. Uh-huh.
    Ms. Morrice. And you are--but, now, if there is a gender 
pay gap right now, what is the female pensioner pay gap going 
to be like?
    Now, that is going to feed into pensions, which is going to 
make pensioners far, far worse off in the future than their 
male counterparts. And that is something I think needs to--now, 
excuse me. I have to declare an interest in that area.
    But there you are. There is my--it probably was not the 
ones you were initially thinking of in Northern Ireland----
    Ms. McWilliams. Could I respond by saying that we do have 
very strong legislation in relation to fair employment, and the 
Good Friday Agreement introduced a particular piece into the 
legislation, known as section 75, which pays attention to the 
issue of underrepresentation.
    There is some controversy over whether or not it is paid 
sufficient attention in relation to areas that have been 
disinvested, or haven't had sufficient investment, and 
particularly, west of the Bann, which, in Northern Ireland 
terms, predominantly Catholic areas are west of the Bann, and 
they would argue that they are grossly underrepresented in 
terms of the new jobs, and in terms of the issue of equality. 
So that does raise its head.
    The other issue for us, like you, is the issue of race, and 
what Northern Ireland was opening up to prior to Brexit were 
the European communities. We had a very large Polish community 
in Northern Ireland, and Portuguese and many others came to 
work in Northern Ireland. Many of them have now returned 
because of Brexit.
    But we have an increasing number of ethnic minorities who 
resent the fact that we continue to talk about Protestant and 
Catholic only in terms of underrepresentation. So that is an 
issue that is also paid attention to now in terms of policing 
those communities, as you too have recently had experienceof 
confronting in the United States.
    And, so, the issue of inclusion is key to peacemaking in 
terms of all of those identities, ethnic and gender and sexual 
orientation, as well as religion. But our focus, as you have 
guessed in terms of this conversation today, has been 
predominantly on political identity, and on religion, the 
largest part of our peace-building. And it shows you that it is 
a good sign of peace, that we have become much more inclusive 
of those other identities.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much to the witnesses.
    And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you vice chair.
    And, unanimous consent, we would like to just have a second 
round of 3-minute questions just as followups. I will go first 
just with one question that was both--that was mentioned in two 
of the witnesses' written testimony that I just want to explore 
more. And that is, the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition was 
credited with the inclusion of civic forums in the Good Friday 
Agreement.
    And, you know, what is the importance of reinstating these 
forums after they were disbanded shortly after the creation of 
the Northern Ireland Assembly? Can you touch upon the 
importance of that and how it could possibly be reinstated?
    Ms. McWilliams. Yes. The civic forum, we put into the Good 
Friday Agreement because we were very aware that there may be 
some political instability as the government's arrangements 
came into place. And that--sometimes it is really important to 
put social and economic and cultural issues into another body, 
as an advisory body to the legislativ assembly. Not that it 
would be totally representative, because it was not elected, 
but that it would be able to sit alongside the Assembly in 
those years as repreentatives of civil society.
    And, indeed, it did. It was established, but only for a 
short time, because the political parties told me--and if they 
were saying it to me, they were saying it to the other parties-
--we are now in place here. We do not need a civic forum.
    Now, that was quite a shock and an indictment at a time 
when we were building peace. Of course, you needed a civic 
forum and sensible civic dialog from business leaders, trade 
unionists, farmers, the victims sector and, those who have been 
to prison along with_the youth sector, the women's sector and, 
the children's sector.
    We had designated all the different types of sectors that 
would be prepared voluntarily to step forward and give their 
leadership to the civic forum, and indeed they did, but it was 
stood down. The Assembly collapsed four times during my period 
as an elected member. And the first time it did, the civic 
forum got nowhere after that. And eventually it just 
disappeared, because there was not the investment in keeping it 
going.
    And it seems to me a very easy resource. It is not 
expensive. People volunteer. And those business leaders and 
others in civic society, community leaders in particular, are 
saying it would be good to hear our voices at this time, 
particularly now, and--with all of the controversy and 
contestation over the leaving of Europe. And, so, that is why I 
suggested that it would be really important to reinsert it.
    And, second, as Tip O'Neill used to say, all politics is 
local. And if all politics is local, we should actually have a 
trickle-down effect to district council levels and where the 
disturbances are happening at the local level.
    And so, again, a proposal might be to have district council 
civic forums where local people, local business leaders and 
others can come forward and take testimony, as you are doing 
today, invite experts to give accurate information before these 
riots break out, and before they wait for disturbances to 
happen before they react, to act as a sort of proactive peace-
building mechanism, and that is why I proposed it to put in my 
statement today.
    Ms. Morrice. Should I comment?
    Mr. Keating. Ms. Morrice, yes.
    Ms. Morrice. Thank you. Yes, indeed. This is excellent, 
because it is a very important part of the Good Friday--I mean, 
we are talking here about the implementation of the Good Friday 
Agreement, and the civic forum is one of the bits of the Good 
Friday Agreement, isn't implemented. So it should--it should be 
back up and running.
    I, as a member of the European Economic and Social 
Committee, if you like, that was the civic forum of Europe. 
There were 350 of us from trade unions, business, consumers, 
farmers, women's groups, youth groups, all sitting together and 
actually giving our opinions on all pieces of European 
legislation. And it works very well in that it does not have a 
veto. We do not have--we wouldn't have a veto.
    But we feed into the decisionmaking process, so the 
European Parliament, the Council of Ministers, all receive our 
opinions on a certain piece of legislation, and they take it on 
board. And, if they want--but they are probably advised to 
because of the publicity and the support they would get if they 
take on board the work of the civic forum.
    So that would be exactly what--how it would work in 
Northern Ireland. And, you see, it takes--it takes the politics 
out of decisionmaking, if you like, in the civic forum. So, 
people are working simply on the impact on an economic, social, 
or cultural level. And that really is desperately needed in 
Northern Ireland.
    You know, if you can have farmers arguing with consumers 
about prices and things like that, it is a much healthier 
argument. And that is what we should definitely have. And the 
United States really insisting on the implementation of the 
Good Friday Agreement with that one would be excellent. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Keating. Yes. Thank you. I wanted to highlight--that 
was in your written testimony, and I thought it was an 
important way to try and maybe break down some of the division, 
because some of the division, I think, is more political than 
maybe exists with a majority of the public, so----
    Ms. Morrice. Yes.
    Mr. Keating [continuing]. I just wanted to highlight that. 
Thank you.
    If Vice Chair Spanberger or Rep Jim Costa have a second-
round question, I will recognize them at this time.
    Vice Chair Spanberger?
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thank you to our witnesses for allowing us a second round with 
your time.
    So, my question is about U.S. engagement, and, you know, 
notably, one of the steps that the Biden Administration may 
consider is the appointment of a U.S. special envoy for 
Northern Ireland.
    Ambassador Reiss, I will direct this question to you. What 
do you think President Biden should keep in mind as he 
considers whether to appoint an envoy? And, if so, how to 
select the appropriate person?
    Mr. Reiss. Well, I think that the President needs to confer 
with Secretary of State Blinken and choose somebody who has the 
time, the energy, and the passion to commit to this issue. It 
cannot be an afterthought. It cannot be a third or fourth job.
    And I think somebody who is going to have an open mind; 
somebody who is going to be seen as an honest broker by all the 
parties, especially across the sectarian divide in the north; 
and somebody who will have access to the Secretary of State and 
to the President as needed.
    It is tempting, of course, to present it to a political 
donor, and there may be some that actually fit those 
qualifications. But I think that, given where Northern Ireland 
is now, what the challenges are, and the potential positive 
role the United States can perform, I think it would be well 
advised to give it to somebody who understands the issues, the 
key players, and has a positive sense of what the United States 
can achieve.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you.
    I am smiling, because I think that so many of the comments, 
particularly about the focus, the experience, the recognition 
of, and the knowledge of who the key players are is important. 
And certainly I think those who have spent a career in the 
Foreign Service, or in the service to our diplomatic priorities 
have a particular experience that is valued.
    Professor McWilliams and Ms. Morrice, in my remaining 
moments, I am curious if you would have any thoughts about, if 
there were a special envoy, how that individual could support 
or complement the local efforts to reaffirm peace and build 
tolerance and prosperity ultimately?
    Ms. McWilliams. Well, it is--I think it is crucial at this 
time, and that person then has the ear of both the Congress, 
and, indeed, if it was the President's envoy, likewise. And it 
would build confidence, I think, in us ourselves back here that 
we have that conduit.
    I want to pay tribute here to the U.S. consul in Belfast, 
and to the consulars that we have had over the years, who have 
been first class. And I know them all, and they have done such 
a great job in terms of the service they have given us. But 
that person, as you know, comes and goes.
    Ms. Spanberger. Right.
    Ms. McWilliams. And what we need now is the continuity. We 
have missed having an envoy for some time now, and, perhaps, 
Mitchell was right in that there was a time when we needed to 
be weaned off envoys. I used to say to Senator Mitchell, It is 
time we are on solids now.
    And it would be nice to think that we--one day soon we 
might be on solids, but we are not there yet. And that is why 
the U.S. envoy is so important to us.
    Ms. Morrice. Could I just say that I think it is actually 
part of a demonstration of the U.S. commitment to peace and 
reconciliation in Northern Ireland. So that is important. But, 
at a practical level, obviously it opens up more, and gets the 
chains of engagement and communication. Definitely, it is--it 
would be a very valuable thing, and I unfortunately did not put 
it into mine, but I will certainly add my voice to that.
    But I would also like to pay tribute to--and obviously we 
have talked about the Clintons, the role played by the 
Clintons, both for women in Northern Ireland and for peace in 
Northern Ireland. It is hugely important.
    But I also want to mention Obama, and his support for 
integrated education, when he came over here was very, very 
important.
    And then, I want to come to someone else, Nancy Pelosi. It 
was excellent that she came here and that she--we met her and 
we talked about, and she listened. And finding out more about 
us is exactly what an envoy would ensure happens, much, much 
more coming and going of these people, which is very good.
    And last, but not least, I would admit, obviously Biden, 
the fact that he is already talking about the Good Friday 
Agreement at the early stages, and he knows the stuff so well.
    But can I put in a plug, please? Could we make sure that on 
his first visit to Ireland, which I am assuming is going to be 
very soon, next year maybe, COVID permitting, but that he comes 
north of the border. That would be a big, big, important 
gesture.
    And two things: One, that he, like other Presidents who 
have come before, visits an integrated school. That gives a 
very important message; and, second, launches this wonderful 
new musical On Eagles Wings, the Ulster-Scots tradition.
    Now, would that--would those be wonderful things for 
President Biden to do when he gets here, and thank him for 
committing to the Good Friday Agreement.
    Mr. Reiss. Excuse me. I do not want to take anything away 
from all the Democratic politicians that were cited, but I 
think, in the--in the interest of fairness, that perhaps there 
were a few Republican Presidents and Republican Members of 
Congress, and just Republican citizens that actually had 
something to do with advancing the peace process over the 
years.
    Ms. Morrice. I agree. Thank you very much for reminding me.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you for reviewing that bit of 
bipartisanship back in the committee, Mr. Ambassador, and I 
appreciate the answers from all of our witnesses.
    And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Keating. Well, thank you. And I--I will let go the fact 
that serving with someone like Peter King, a former colleague 
of mine and friend, certainly played an important role as well.
    Representative Costa, do you have any--30--you have 3 
minutes, if you would like, for a second round of questioning?
    Mr. Costa. Well, just quickly. I commend my colleague, 
Congresswoman Spanberger, for asking the question in terms of 
an envoy, and I think that both Peter King, a list of our 
Republican colleagues who have taken an active role, as well as 
our Democratic Members--I have absolute faith that President 
Biden, given all of his past involvement on these issues, is 
going to choose an envoy that clearly reflects someone who has 
the skill sets necessary to represent the administration. I 
think he takes this area--this issue very seriously, as does 
Speaker Pelosi. Her comments in April of last year as it 
relates to the Good Friday Agreement, I think, are well-Stated.
    Just let me quickly ask you: Do you think that getting back 
to the EU role, that the Commission should appoint such an 
envoy representing the EU?
    Ms. Morrice. Well, by the way, I was that person. The 
European Commission has offices, representations they are 
called, in every member State. And, in terms of the larger 
member States, it is not only in the capital, but it is also in 
the regions. They had--in the U.K. There was one in Belfast, 
Edinburgh, and Cardiff, as well as London.
    And I was the representative for 7 years in the EC's office 
in Belfast. And, yes, I am awfully glad you raised that. There 
is still someone here, but obviously there is--it is a 
different role now, because it is no longer a representative 
instrument. It is more like an embassy or something.
    So it is different, and I--you are absolutely right. I 
think that they should go back to there being--back to the 
representation we had, because that was huge. But, when I was 
in the office in Belfast, that was the first peace program.
    And, by the way, there is one name we haven't mentioned 
yet. John Hume. You know, the role of John Hume in bringing 
both America and Europe together. And those days--this is the 
early 1990's. I was there from 1992 to 1997. And John Hume was 
instrumental in bringing about the European peace program----
    Mr. Costa. Yes. That is true.
    Ms. Morrice [continuing]. And working with my office. And, 
of course--so, yes, we should reinstate it. But there is a 
slight problem in that there is even a debate or argument or 
controversy--I do not know what the right word is--about 
whether--or if there is an EC office in Northern Ireland, where 
it should be situated. Should it be in central Belfast, or 
should it be at the border? There is--I do not know where they 
are with that, but----
    Mr. Costa. Yes.
    Ms. Morrice [continuing]. Certainly should be.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you.
    Ms. Morrice. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Representative.
    Mr. Costa. I heard that you held that position. Thank you, 
Mr. Chairman for the subcommittee.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Representative.
    And thank you for bringing the name John Hume forward to be 
recognized, as well as the colleagues I worked with in my time 
here, Peter King.
    I also want to ask unanimous consent. Chairman Richie Neal 
is chairing a Ways and Means hearing that occurred 
simultaneously with this, and he did submit a statement, and I 
am asking unanimous consent that that be placed on the record, 
the official record for this hearing, and I want to recognize 
him and thank him for all his work as well.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Neal follows:]

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    Mr. Keating. Just a couple of closing comments that are 
important. No. 1, I have noticed both Professor McWilliams and 
Ms. Morrice are wearing the colors of the Northern Ireland 
Women's Coalition, and so, that did not go unnoticed, and I 
want to thank you. It is a symbol of your continued commitment 
to that cause.
    Ambassador, thank you for your comments. This is a 
terrific--we couldn't ask for a better panel to discuss these 
issues, and your insight is incredibly important. All three of 
you, thank you for doing that.
    I think I made it clear, you know, that, even as a person 
with Irish heritage--my grandparents emigrated from Ireland to 
the U.S. I am speaking as an American, however, when I want to 
just point to the fact there is great pride in what the U.S. 
had accomplished here. It goes unsaid. Even when we go to other 
parts of the world, other leaders in conflict will bring this 
up as a symbol that, when hope seems hopeless, that the real 
challenge of peace can be met, and they point to the Good 
Friday Agreement all the time, all over the world, as an 
example of what can be overcome.
    And it gives me enormous pride as an American that we are 
part of that, and we were a part of that, and we should be part 
of it until all the commitment is met going forward to that 
agreement.
    Brexit has caused its difficulties, as we anticipated, but 
I hope that the Protocol is adhered to and, we can move forward 
with this. There is some excellent suggestions by our witnesses 
today how to do that. And we--and also, a reinforcement that, 
even prior to Brexit, there was unfinished work to be done, and 
we could see some of the cracks in the agreement coming forth.
    And, we have to make sure that not only this is a 
commitment to an agreement that was important for peace with 
Northern Ireland, with U.K., with Ireland, with all of Europe, 
but the U.S., as a principal member of this as well, for work 
that is undone.
    So it remains a priority with me. It remains a priority--a 
bipartisan priority with this committee, and the full 
committee, as well as Congress. This is a unifying issue for 
Congress on both sides of the aisle.
    And I will just finish with one of your suggestions, as I 
took to heart. I will be circulating a letter among colleagues, 
if they choose to join me, formally asking the President to 
appoint a special envoy to Northern Ireland, and take, you 
know, the information we had from you to heart and bring it 
forward.
    So thank you again. This was just a terrific panel, a very 
important hearing, and one that I think we will have a lot of 
followup on.
    With that, I will have to do a little homework, and say 
members of the committee will have 5 days to submit statements, 
extraneous material, and questions for the record subject to 
the length limitation of the rules.
    And, with that, I move that this hearing be adjourned, and 
thank you again.
    [Whereupon, at 12:55p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX
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            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
            
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