    [House Hearing, 117 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                      RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE
                       OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                              HIGHER EDUCATION AND
                              WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                                     OF THE

                        COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                 HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MARCH 17, 2021

                                   __________

                                Serial No. 117-2

                                   __________

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    43-870 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2022

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR

                 ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

    RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona            VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
    JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut              Ranking Member
    GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN,      JOE WILSON, South Carolina
      Northern Mariana Islands           GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
    FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida         TIM WALBERG, Michigan
    SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon             GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
    MARK TAKANO, California              ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
    ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina        RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
    MARK De SAULNIER, California         JIM BANKS, Indiana
    DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          JAMES COMER, Kentucky
    PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington          RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
    JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York          FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania             GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
    LUCY Mc BATH, Georgia                MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
    JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut            BURGESS OWENS, Utah
    ANDY LEVIN, Michigan                 BOB GOOD, Virginia
    ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota                LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
    HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan           DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
    TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico   MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
    MONDAIRE JONES, New York             VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
    KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina     SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
    FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana              MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
    JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair  MICHELLE STEEL, California
    MARK POCAN, Wisconsin                Vacancy
    JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas                Vacancy
    MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
    JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
    ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
    KWEISI MFUME, Maryland

                       Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
                      Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
                                     ------

           SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT

                    FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman

    MARK TAKANO, California              GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
    PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington            Ranking Member
    ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota                GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
    TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico   ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
    MONDAIRE JONES, New York             JIM BANKS, Indiana
    KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina     JAMES COMER, Kentucky
    JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York              RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
    MARK POCAN, Wisconsin                MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
    JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas                BOB GOOD, Virginia
    MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey           LISA C. Mc CLAIN, Michigan
    ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York           DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
    RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona            VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
    JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut            Vacancy
    SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon             VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (ex
    ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia      officio)
      (ex officio)

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

    Hearing held on March 17, 2021...................................     1

    Statement of Members:
        Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
          Education and Workforce Investment.........................     1
            Prepared statement of....................................     5
         Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
          Education and Workforce Investment.........................     6
            Prepared statement of....................................     8

    Statement of Witnesses:
        Burke, Lindsey M., Ph.D., Director, Center for Education
          Policy, and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education, The
          Heritage Foundation, Washington, DC........................    19
            Prepared statement of....................................    22
        Oakley, Eloy Ortiz, Chancellor, California Community
          Colleges,
          Sacramento, CA.............................................    14
            Prepared statement of....................................    17
        Thornton, Keith, Student, Florida International University,
          Miami, FL..................................................    11
            Prepared statement of....................................    13
        Zibel, Daniel A., Vice President and Chief Counsel, National
          Student Legal Defense Network, Washington, DC..............    29
            Prepared statement of....................................    31

    Additional Submissions:
        Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the
          State of Oregon:
            Report dated May 19, 2020 from the Brookings Institution,

              ``Commercials for College? Advertising in Higher
              Education''............................................    86
        Jones, Hon. Mondaire, a Representative in Congress from the
          State of New York:
            Report dated October, 2020 from National Student Legal
              Defense, ``Protection and the Unseen: Holding
              Executives Personally Liable under the Higher Eduction
              Act''..................................................   109
        Leger Fernandez, Hon. Teresa, a Representative in Congress
          from the State of New Mexico:
            Article dated March 16, 2021 from the Santa Fe Reporter:
              New Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity''.....   106
            Link: GAO Report 19-95 dated December 21, 2018, ``FOOD
              INSECURITY: Better Information Could Help Eligible
              College
              Students Access Federal Food Assistance Benefits''.....   108
        Omar, Hon. Ilhan, a Representative in Congress from the State
          of
          Minnesota:
            Link: GAO Report 19-522 dated August 19, 2020, ``Higher
              Education: More Information Could Help Student Parents
              Access Additional Federal Student Aid''................   106
        Questions submitted for the record by:
            Banks, Hon. Jim, a Representative in Congress from the
              State of Indiana.......................................   126
            Fulcher, Hon. Russ, a a Representative in Congress from
              the State of Idaho.....................................   126
            Harshbarger, Hon. Diana, a a Representative in Congress
              from the State of Tennessee............................ 126-7
            Sherrill, Hon. Mikie, a Representative in Congress from
              the State of New Jersey

        Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
            Dr. Burke................................................   128
            Mr. Oakley...............................................   134
            Mr. Zibel................................................   140

     RISING TO THE CHALLENGE: THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION POST COVID-19

                                  ----------

                           Wednesday, March 17, 2021

                      House of Representatives,
                          Subcommittee on Education and
                                  Workforce Investment,
                              Committee on Education and Labor,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:03 p.m., via
    Zoom, Hon. Frederica Wilson (Chairwoman of the subcommittee)
    presiding.
        Present: Representatives Wilson, Takano, Jayapal, Omar,
    Leger Fernandez, Jones, Manning, Bowman, Pocan, Castro,
    Sherrill, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex officio), Murphy,
    Grothman, Banks, Comer, Fulcher, Miller-Meeks, Good, McClain,
    Harshbarger, Spartz, and Foxx (ex officio).
        Staff present: Tylease Alli, Chief Clerk; Katie Berger,
    Profession Staff; Ilana Brunner, General Counsel; Sheila
    Havenner, Director of Information Technology; Eli Hovland,
    Policy Associate; Ariel Jones, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay,
    Policy Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray,
    Clerk/Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla
    Pennebecker, Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff
    Director; Benjamin Sinoff, Director of Education Oversight;
    Banyon Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology;
    Claire Viall, Professional Staff; Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff
    Director; Kelsey Avino , Minority Professional Staff Member;
    Courtney Butcher, Minority Director of Member Services and
    Coalitions; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
    Human Resources Policy; Dean Johnson, Minority Legislative
    Assistant; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director of Operations;
    Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Alex Ricci, Minority
    Professional Staff Member; Chance Russell, Minority Legislative
    Assistant; and Mandy Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and
    Deputy Director of Education Policy.
        Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Education and
    Workforce Investment will come to order. I believe we have a
    quorum call. We have a Member who is being waived on the
    committee. He's not a Member of the committee, but after each
    of the Members speak he will be able to participate.
        I want to welcome everyone. I note that a quorum is
    present, so that's great. Everybody is on time and ready. The
    subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the future
    of higher education post COVID-19. And you will notice that
    some of the women are wearing white. This is a special day for
    us, this particular suffrage day.
        This is an entirely remote hearing. All microphones will be
    kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary background
    noise. Members and witnesses they'll be responsible for
    unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak, or when
    they wish to seek recognition.
        I also ask that Members please identify themselves before
    they speak, so call out your name before you speak. Members
    should keep their cameras on while in the proceeding. Members
    shall be considered present in the proceeding when they are
    visible on camera and they shall be considered not present when
    they are not visible on camera.
        The only exception to this is if they are experiencing
    technical difficulty and inform committee Staff of such
    difficulty. If any Member experiences technical difficulties
    during the hearing you should stay connected on the platform,
    make sure that you are muted, and use your phone to immediately
    call the committee's IT director, whose number was provided to
    you in advance.
        Should the Chair experience technical difficulty I'll need
    to stop. If I have to step away to vote on the floor
    Representative Mark Takano as a Member of this subcommittee, or
    another Majority Member of the subcommittee, if he is not
    available, is hereby authorized to assume the gavel in the
    Chair's absence.
        This is an entirely remote hearing and as such the
    committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who
    choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room
    must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion
    resulting from sitting in the same room.
        Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing
    and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks,
    hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas before and after
    their presence in the hearing room.
        In order to ensure that the committee's five-minute rule is
    adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the
    committee's field timer. The field timer will appear in its own
    thumbnail picture and will be named 001_timer. There will be no
    one minute remaining warning. The field timer will sound its
    audio alarm when time is up.
        Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly when
    their time has expired. While a roll call is not necessary to
    establish a quorum in official proceedings conducted remotely
    or with remote participation, the committee has made it a
    practice whenever there is an official proceeding with remote
    participation for the Clerk to call the roll and help make
    clear who is present at the start of the proceeding.
        Members should say their name before announcing they are
    present. This helps the Clerk, and also helps those watching
    the platform and the live stream who may experience a few
    seconds delay.
        At this time I ask the Clerk to call the roll.
        The Clerk. Ms. Wilson?
        Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Wilson is here.
        The Clerk. Mr. Takano?
        Mr. Takano. Present.
        The Clerk. Ms. Jayapal?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Ms. Omar?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Ms. Leger Fernandez?
        Ms. Leger Fernandez. Ms. Leger Fernandez is here.
        The Clerk. Mr. Jones?
        Mr. Jones. Here.
        The Clerk. Ms. Manning?
        Ms. Manning. Ms. Manning is here.
        The Clerk. Mr. Bowman?
        Mr. Bowman. Mr. Bowman is here.
        The Clerk. Mr. Pocan?
        Mr. Pocan. Mark Pocan's here.
        The Clerk. Ms. Sherill?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Espaillat?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Grijalva?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Courtney?
        Mr. Courtney. Courtney's here.
        The Clerk. Ms. Bonamici?
        Ms. Bonamici. Ms. Bonamici's present.
        The Clerk. Mr. Murphy?
        Mr. Murphy. Murphy is present.
        The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Ms. Stefanik?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Banks?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Comer?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Fulcher?
        Mr. Fulcher. Fulcher's here.
        The Clerk. Ms. Miller-Meeks?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Mr. Good?
        Mr. Good. Good is here.
        The Clerk. Ms. McClain?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Ms. Harshbarger?
        Ms. Harshbarger. I'm present.
        The Clerk. Ms. Spartz?
        [No response.]
        The Clerk. Chairwoman Wilson that concludes the roll call.
    I just wanted to add in here thank you Cheryl, thanks.
        Ms. Foxx. Madam Chair, this is Virginia Foxx. I am present
    also and I love your hat today.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Pursuant
    to Committee Rules agency opening statements are limited to the
    Chair and the Ranking Member. This allows us to hear from our
    witnesses sooner and provide Members with adequate time to ask
    questions.
        I recognize myself now for the purpose of making an opening
    statement. But before I do that I just have to say that I want
    to welcome especially Keith Thornton. Keith is one of your
    witnesses and you will hear from him shortly, but he is a
    member of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Projects that I
    have been bragging about to all of you for years, especially to
    you Representative Foxx.
        Now I didn't want my time to start until now. Today we meet
    to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on higher
    education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
    education. I want to start by reaffirming a well-established
    fact that the foundation of our work that a college degree is
    the surest pathway to financial security and a rewarding
    career.
        That is why as a Miami Dade County School Board Member, I
    led the creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence
    Project, an in-school mentoring and dropout prevention program
    that has helped prepare thousands of black boys for higher
    education and adulthood.
        Unfortunately, the COVID 19 pandemic has created new
    barriers to postsecondary degrees. Campus closures and the
    abrupt transition to online platforms saved lives. But we know
    that remote instruction has also made it harder for students
    across the country to access and complete college.
        These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every
    other facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic
    with fewer resources were disproportionately impacted by the
    disruption to in person instruction.
        Research indicates that achievement gaps between black and
    white students are wider in online classes than traditional
    settings. And on campus resources that underserved students
    normally rely on, like computer labs and reliable high speed
    internet, are restricted while campuses are closed.
        Now, fewer students--particularly fewer low-income students
    and students of color are pursuing a higher education. Social,
    psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
    students to drop out during the pandemic. And now we know
    students who discontinue their education are more likely to
    default on student loans, and less likely to re-enroll which
    lowers their chances of increased lifetime earnings.
        Institutions are also facing unprecedented state and local
    budget shortfalls which have already caused drastic funding
    cuts and cost more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In
    addition, decreased enrollment and campus closures are eroding
    schools' revenue.
        For example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges
    is down 10 percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider
    that when the pandemic started many institutions were still
    recovering from state budget cuts made during the Great
    Recession.
        To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent
    funding for higher education by passing three major relief
    packages: The Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security
    Act, or CARES Act; the Coronavirus Response and Relief
    Supplemental Appropriations Act, and just last week the
    American Rescue Plan.
        This combined investment of more than 75 billion dollars
    has helped our higher education system avert an existential
    crisis. This relief is helping institutions maintain basic
    operations, keep staff on payroll, and prepare for reopening
    safely, and it is helping students avoid hunger, homelessness,
    and other hardships.
        Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical
    funding for state and local governments, supporting our
    nation's public institutions, the workers they employ, and the
    communities they support.
        While this relief may have saved our higher education
    system from financial calamity, justice demands that the
    Federal Government do more, far more, to address the
    longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated by the
    pandemic.
        For example, as institution access COVID-19 relief funding,
    we must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and
    protect students from predatory for-profit schools. These
    institutions have a well-documented record of using taxpayer
    dollars to target vulnerable students during economic
    downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees and unreasonable
    loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
        Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of
    college. It's too expensive. This includes creating a federal
    and state partnership that incentivizes states to reinvest in
    their public institutions and offer free community college. And
    it includes expanding Pell Grants, the cornerstone of federal
    student aid, and so that fewer students that have to take
    take--fewer will have to take out student loans.
        As the Subcommittee has already established, this pandemic
    is not only testing our students and institutions. It is also
    testing Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students
    have access to safe, affordable, and quality education.
        Today I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise
    to that challenge. I want to thank our witnesses again, for
    being with us and I now yield to the Ranking Member Mr. Murphy
    for his opening statement. Mr. Murphy, Representative Murphy.
        [The statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]

      Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
                       Education and Workforce Investment

        Today, we meet to examine the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on
    higher education and what we can do to expand access to quality higher
    education.
        I want to start by reaffirming a well-established fact at the
    foundation of our work-that a college degree is the surest pathway to
    financial security and a rewarding career.
        That is why, as a Miami-Dade County School Board Member, I led the
    creation of the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence Project, an in-school
    mentoring and drop-out prevention program that has helped prepare
    thousands of black boys for higher education and adulthood.
        Unfortunately, the COVID-19 pandemic has created new barriers to a
    postsecondary degree.
        Campus closures and the abrupt transition to online platforms saved
    lives. But we know that remote instruction has also made it harder for
    students across the country to access and complete college.
        These consequences have not been felt evenly. As with every other
    facet of our society, Americans who entered the pandemic with fewer
    resources were disproportionately impacted by the disruption to in-
    person instruction.
        Research indicates that achievement gaps between Black and white
    students are wider in online classes than traditional settings. And on-
    campus resources that underserved students normally rely on, like
    computer labs and reliable high-speed internet, are restricted while
    campuses are closed.
        Now, fewer students-particularly fewer low-income students and
    students of color-are pursuing a higher education at all.
        Social, psychological, and economic hardships have also forced many
    students to drop out during the pandemic. And we know students who
    discontinue their education are more likely to default on student loans
    and less likely to re-enroll, which lowers their chances of increased
    lifetime earnings.
        Institutions are also facing unprecedented State and local budget
    shortfalls, which have already caused drastic funding cuts and cost
    more than 300,000 higher education jobs. In addition, decreased
    enrollment and campus closures are eroding schools' revenue. For
    example, undergraduate enrollment at community colleges is down 10
    percent compared to before the pandemic. Consider that, when the
    pandemic started, many institutions were still recovering from State
    budget cuts made during the Great Recession.
        To address these challenges, Congress secured urgent funding for
    higher education by passing three major relief packages:

       the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or
            CARES Act,

       the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
            Appropriations Act, and, just last week,

       the American Rescue Plan Act.

        This combined investment of more than $75 billion has helped our
    higher education system avert an existential crisis. The relief is
    helping institutions maintain basic operations, keep staff on payroll,
    and prepare for reopening safely. And it is helping students avoid
    hunger, homelessness, and other hardships.
        Importantly, these relief packages also secured critical funding
    for State and local governments, supporting our nation's public
    institutions, the workers they employ, and the communities they
    support.
        While this relief may have saved our higher education system from
    financial calamity, justice demands that the Federal Government do far
    more to address the longstanding disparities that have been exacerbated
    by the pandemic.
        For example, as institutions access COVID-19 relief funding, we
    must strengthen institutional oversight to prevent waste and protect
    students from predatory for-profit schools. These institutions have a
    well-documented record of using taxpayer dollars to target vulnerable
    students during economic downturns, leaving them with worthless degrees
    and unreasonable loans. We cannot allow history to repeat itself.
        Congress must also take bold action to lower the cost of college.
    This includes creating a Federal and State partnership that
    incentivizes States to reinvest in their public institutions and offer
    free community college. And it includes expanding Pell Grants, the
    cornerstone of Federal student aid, so that fewer students have to take
    out student loans.
        As the subcommittee has already established, this pandemic is not
    only testing our students and institutions. It is also testing
    Congress's commitment to ensuring that all students have access to
    safe, affordable, and quality education.
        Today, I look forward to discussing what we must do to rise to that
    challenge.
        I want to thank our witnesses, again, for being with us and I now
    yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Murphy, for his opening Statement.
                                     ______

        Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Chairwoman Wilson. I appreciate the
    opportunity. I love your hat also and I look forward to the
    opportunity of working with you. I enjoyed our conversation the
    other day. I think we have so much common ground to work on. I
    could not agree with you more that individuals and minorities
    and rural communities have been disproportionately affected by
    this because of school closures, all of the more reason to get
    our kids back in school.
        America's higher education system has been in desperate
    reform for years. The systems weaknesses were further
    exacerbated by this pandemic. There are many pathways to
    success besides the traditional Baccalaureate degree, and
    institutions opposed to secondary education need to realize
    that fact if they hope to have the students thrive in the
    coming decades.
        I could not also Chairwoman, agree with you more about the
    affordability of colleges. They've gone unchecked without
    reducing costs for years and I look forward to working with you
    on that, nothing specific. We're not here today to discuss
    whether higher education needs reform, as I think everybody on
    this committee agrees so.
        According to one analysis, four in ten Baccalaureate degree
    recipients are underemployed in their first jobs after school,
    and roughly 60 percent of students it takes at least six years
    to complete their degree program. Certainly, these numbers are
    not worth celebrating.
        Now is not the time to expand on policies that have failed
    us from government before. And while Congress does play a role
    in improving all forms of postsecondary education, it should
    not take the form of expensive government handouts that push
    unworkable partisan priorities, and priorities that have shown
    that government has led to the increased cost of education.
        When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education
    system Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding
    for educational institutions to combat this once in a century,
    and hopefully, once in a much longer-term pandemic.
        Under President Trump, Congress allocated 35 billion
    dollars, that's 35 with a B towards these efforts. Republicans
    do not take spending taxpayer dollars lightly, which is why my
    Republican colleagues voted against the Democrat led budget
    reconciliation bill.
        We wanted to help people, but unfortunately this was pushed
    before unilateral with a large spending bill. But these
    unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled into
    educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
    return on investment. It is imperative that Congress take a
    close look at how the Department of Education and institutions
    of higher learning spend hard earned taxpayer dollars, and
    consider necessary structural reform to the Higher Education
    Act to serve students better.
        I'm disappointed that we're not going into this further,
    and this hearing is seemingly having a lack of actual and
    necessary oversight because I believe that is our purpose. We
    have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
    taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many
    on this committee find it too easy to spend hard earned
    taxpayer dollars without promising accountability.
        I have no problem with us investing in our students, but we
    have to hold institutions accountable. As a committee our
    loyalty should be to all students, present and future. Any
    conversations surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
    reduce the cost of attendance, and boost graduation rates while
    at the same time supporting students to pursue the type of
    education that works for them. It is not a one size fits all.
        And that means whether it be seeking a Baccalaureate
    degree, or pursuing an equally valuable skill based
    alternative, such as a career in technical education or
    apprenticeships that lead to in demand good paying jobs.
        Before the pandemic, there were over 7 million unfilled
    jobs in the United States, in part due to a skills gap. With
    employers in desperate need for qualified employees, now is the
    time more than ever, to strengthen all learning opportunities
    that provide students with skills and the necessary knowledge
    to succeed in the workforce.
        This type of strategy will not only benefit students, but
    will boost our entire economy. Higher education is in a state
    of emergency, but we cannot allow this to turn into an excuse
    to nationalize the entire postsecondary education system. The
    U.S. Constitution grants no authority over education to the
    Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
    Constitution and for a good reason.
        The founders wanted most aspects of our lives to be managed
    by those closest to them, either by State, or local or by
    family, businesses, and other elements of society. Certainly,
    they saw no role for the Federal Government in education.
        Now if we're going to be involved in education, we ought to
    expect specific financial and productive return on our
    investment and not put students into oblivion of debt.
    Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students and
    completing affordable, postsecondary education that will
    prepare them to enter the workforce with the skills that they
    need for life long learning, and life long success.
        We ought to work together, and I mean collaboration, to
    give students access to educational options that will prepare
    them to enter the workforce with the skills they need for that
    lifelong success. Students need pathways, not partisanship, and
    it is my hope and my expectation that this is a step in a
    productive and a bipartisan direction.
        Again thank you all for being here. I look forward to
    discussing reforms for higher education that increase student
    access without expensive government handouts, partisan
    programs. And I want to thank the Chairwoman for a wonderful
    discussion. As I said next week I look forward to working on
    trying to do great things for our students in education, and
    provide all students with a wonderful means of pathway to
    success. Thank you, and I will yield back.
        [The statement of Ranking Member Murphy follows:]

     Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
                       Education and Workforce Investment

        Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you to all our witnesses for
    joining us here today.
        America's higher education system has been in desperate need of
    reform for years. The system's weaknesses were further exacerbated by
    the COVID-19 pandemic. There are many pathways to success besides the
    traditional baccalaureate degree, and institutions of postsecondary
    education need to realize this fact if they hope to help their students
    thrive in the coming decades.
        We are not here today to discuss whether higher education needs
    reform, as both sides can agree that the system needs work. According
    to one analysis, four in ten baccalaureate-degree recipients are
    underemployed in their first jobs after school. Roughly 60 percent of
    students complete their degree program within 6 years. Certainly, these
    are not numbers worth celebrating.
        Now is not the time to expand on failed, big government policies.
    While Congress has a role to play in improving all forms of
    postsecondary education, it should not take the form of expensive
    government handouts that push unworkable, partisan priorities.
        When COVID-19 placed heavy strains on our higher education system,
    Congress acted quickly to provide the necessary funding for educational
    institutions to combat this once-in-a-century pandemic. Under President
    Trump, Congress allocated roughly $35 billion toward these efforts.
    That is 35 billion with a b.
        Republicans do not take spending taxpayers' dollars lightly, which
    is why my Republican colleagues voted against the Democrats' budget
    reconciliation bill. Unfortunately, Democrats unilaterally pushed ahead
    with their large spending bill.
        With these unprecedented levels of taxpayer money being funneled
    into educational institutions, combined with valid concerns about
    return on investment, it is imperative that Congress take a close look
    at how the Department of Education and institutions of higher learning
    spent hard-earned taxpayer dollars, and consider necessary structural
    reforms to the Higher Education Act to serve students better. I am
    disappointed that this hearing seems to have a glaring lack of actual
    and necessary oversight.
        We have a responsibility to diligently and responsibly allocate
    taxpayer dollars to those who truly need assistance. Too many in this
    Committee find it way too easy to spend hard-earned taxpayer dollars
    without promising accountability. As a Committee, our loyalty should be
    to all students, present and future.
        Any conversation surrounding postsecondary education must aim to
    reduce the cost of attendance and boost graduation rates, while also
    supporting students to pursue the type of education that works for
    them--whether it be seeking a baccalaureate degree or pursuing equally
    valuable, skills-based alternatives, such as career and technical
    education and apprenticeships, that lead to in-demand, good-paying
    jobs.
        Before the pandemic, there were over seven million unfilled jobs in
    the U.S., in part due to a skills gap. With employers in desperate need
    for qualified employees, now is the time to strengthen all learning
    opportunities that provide students with the skills and knowledge
    necessary to succeed in the work force.
        This type of strategy will not only benefit students but will boost
    our entire economy.
        Higher education is in a State of emergency, but we cannot allow
    this to turn into an excuse to nationalize the entire postsecondary
    education sector. The U.S. Constitution grants no authority over
    education to the Federal Government. Education is not mentioned in the
    Constitution of the United States, and for good reason. The Founders
    wanted most aspects of life managed by those who were closest to them,
    either by State or local government or by families, businesses, and
    other elements of civil society. Certainly, they saw no role for the
    Federal Government in education. Now, if we are going to be involved in
    education, we ought to expect a civic, financial, and productive return
    on our investment.
        Committee Republicans are focused on supporting students in
    completing an affordable postsecondary education that will prepare them
    to enter the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success.
        We ought to work together--and I mean actual collaboration--to give
    students access to education options that will prepare them to enter
    the work force with the skills they need for lifelong success. Students
    need pathways not partisanship.
        It is my hope that this hearing is a step in the productive and
    bipartisan direction. Again, thank you all for being here, and I look
    forward to discussing reforms to higher education that increase student
    success without expensive government handouts
                                     ______

        Chairwoman Wilson. Without objection, all of the Members
    who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so
    by submitting them to the Committee Clerk electronically in
    Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. on March 31, 2021.
        I will now introduce the witnesses. Keith Thornton, Jr., is
    a senior at Florida International University, FIU, where he's
    majoring in recreation and sports management. Keith is a 5000
    Role Models of Excellence Project Wilson Scholar in an
    educational talent search TRIO program alum, and he is a Pell
    Grant recipient.
        During the COVID-19 pandemic Keith received emergency
    financial aid from both the CARES Act and CERTIA, which helped
    him stay afloat. I am pleased to recognize my colleague
    Representative Mark Takano to briefly introduce his constituent
    who is appearing before us as a witness today. Representative
    Mr. Takano, do I see you?
        Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chair Wilson. It's my distinct honor
    to welcome Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who is Chancellor of
    the California Community College system. Mr. Oakley was
    appointed Chancellor for the California Community Colleges in
    2016, and is best known throughout California and the Nation
    for implementing innovative programs and policies that help
    students succeed in college.
        One of the most exciting developments in California Madam
    Chair, is the use of alternatives to testing to actually place
    students into college level classes and avoid unnecessary
    remediation. This has huge implications for diversifying----
        [Audio difficulties]
        Mr. Vassar. Chairwoman Wilson, I believe Mr. Takano's
    connection became severed possibly.
        Chairwoman Wilson. All right. So I'd like to welcome
    Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley as a witness. Welcome. It's a
    pleasure to have you here today. The Chancellor was appointed
    for the California Community Colleges in 2016, and is best
    known throughout California and the Nation for implementing
    innovative programs and policies that help students succeed in
    college.
        Prior to becoming Chancellor Mr. Oakley was a
    Superintendent President of the Long Beach Community College
    District. After serving in the U.S. Army, Chancellor Oakley
    began his education at a community college, first enrolling at
    Golden West College and then transferring to the University of
    California Irvine where he received a bachelor of arts in
    environmental analysis and design and master of business
    administration. Welcome.
        Our next witness is Daniel Zibel. He is the Vice President
    and Chief Counsel and co-founder of the National Student Legal
    Defense Network. Mr. Zibel is an expert on consumer protection
    and higher education and leads Student Defense Network to
    ensure that student loan borrowers can access the courts to
    assert their rights against predatory loan servicing practices.
        Prior to joining Student Defense, Dan served as a Deputy
    Assistant General Counsel for post-secondary education at the
    Department of Education where he served as the lead legal
    counsel to the enforcement unit at Federal student aid, and on
    the Obama administration's interagency task force on foreign
    project education.
        Mr. Zibel has a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from
    Haverford College and a law degree from the University of
    Michigan Law School. Welcome.
        Next Ms. Lindsey Burke is a Director of the Center for
    Education Policy and Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education.
    Lindsey Burke oversees the Heritage Foundation's research and
    policy on issues pertaining to pre-school, K-12, and higher
    education reform.
        She also serves as a fellow with EdChoice, the Legacy
    Foundation of Milton and Rose Friedman and is on the National
    Advisory Board of Learn4Life, a network of public charter
    schools. Is on the board of the Educational Freedom Institute,
    and serves on the Board of Choice Media.
        Ms. Burke holds a bachelor's degree in politics from
    Hollins University, a master of teaching degree from the
    University of Virginia, and a Ph.D. in education policy from
    George Mason University.
        These are my instructions to you as witnesses. We
    appreciate your participation today, and we look forward to
    your testimony. Let me remind you that we have read your
    written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing
    record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d) and committee practice,
    each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a five-
    minute summary of your written statement.
        I also remind you as witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of
    the U.S. Code, Section 1001, it is illegal--illegal, to
    knowingly and willfully falsify any statement, representation,
    writing, document, or material fact presented to Congress or
    otherwise conceal or cover up a material fact.
        Before you begin your testimony please remember to unmute
    your microphone. During your testimony staff will be keeping
    track of time, and a timer will sound when time is up. Please
    be attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and
    re mute your microphone.
        If any of you experience technical difficulties during your
    testimony, or later in the hearing, you should stay connected
    on the platform, but make sure you are muted, and use your
    phone to immediately call the IT director whose number was
    provided to you in advance.
        We will let all of the witnesses make their presentations
    before we move to Member questions. When answering a question
    please remember to unmute your microphone. I will first
    recognize my friend and son, Keith Thornton from Florida
    International University. Keith.

      STATEMENT OF KEITH THORNTON, STUDENT, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
                               UNIVERSITY

        Mr. Thornton. Good afternoon everyone. Again my name is
    Keith Thornton, Junior. Chairman Member Wilson, Ranking Member
    Murphy, Members of the subcommittee, thank you for allowing me
    to testify today. I value the opportunity to come before you on
    behalf of all students across the Nation whose educations have
    been disrupted by the pandemic and who have relied on emergency
    aid to remain financially afloat and continue pursuing their
    degree.
        The fact that my experience during this challenging period
    is in many ways not unique is a testament to the severity of
    this crisis, and the ongoing need for Federal relief.
        I am a senior at Florida International University studying
    recreation and sports management. And since my freshman year, I
    have benefited from the support of fellow students, teachers,
    and positive campus environment. This support network has been
    critical to helping me remain focused and weather many of the
    challenges that have arisen in the past year.
        I am also a proud graduate of the South Florida TRIO
    Program, which enabled me to form long-lasting relationships
    with instructors and students who have been a consistent source
    of motivation. My program instructor, Ms. Tiffany Tyler,
    regularly checks in with me and checks in with my family to see
    if everything is going well with us. And there was a point in
    time where I was even contemplating whether or not college was
    for me.
        And in the end I was able to go to my peers within the
    program and they were encouraging me to continue pushing
    through and now I'm in a position where I'm getting ready to
    graduate. And Ms. Tiffany Tyler and others provided the
    guidance and mentorship that I needed to not only continue my
    education, but to also enjoy it.
        In the past year, these supportive relationships have been
    more important than ever. When the pandemic hit, my education
    was disrupted. I had to suspend my internship, and I lost my
    job. I had been working for about 2 months before the start of
    the semester, which enabled me to move into an apartment and
    forego taking out an additional loan and having to stay on
    campus.
        And losing that income was a heavy blow, so it was a great
    relief when a few weeks later I received emergency funds from
    FIU that were made available through the CARES Act. And this
    aid helped me purchase school supplies and even keep up with
    bills, whether it was rent, or anything concerning my car
    because I had to travel.
        Without that financial support, I would have been forced to
    jeopardize my future by taking out more loans that I initially
    hadn't planned for. The second round of aid that I received
    through the Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental
    Appropriations Act has similarly provided a lifeline that gave
    me the opportunity to continue my studies without added
    financial stress.
        This has been critically important because even without
    having to worry about replacing the income I lost when my job
    ended, it has been challenging to remain focused on my studies.
    And although I haven't allowed myself to become discouraged, or
    to give up, COVID-19 has had a huge effect on my ability to
    stay motivated.
        I struggled with the transition of virtual learning and not
    having the same support network around me. Without the presence
    of my peers and teachers, I felt more alone and forced to rely
    on my own strength.
        Still, it has been my relationships with mentors,
    counselors, and other students that have enabled me to remain
    on track. And with their continued support, and thanks to the
    emergency financial aid I received, I look forward to
    graduating as soon as this summer.
        I would like to thank the Members of this committee for
    thinking of students across the United States who, like me,
    suddenly had to take on unexpected costs when the pandemic hit,
    and for delivering meaningful relief.
        I would also urge you to continue to provide support for
    students who are most in need. We represent the future, and I,
    like many of my counterparts, want to use our degrees to make
    an impact. Although Florida tuition rates have remained flat
    for eight years, many students would benefit from an effort
    double the Pell considering the significant financial burden
    that exists on us and our families.
        Receiving financial aid that removes some of this strain
    helps put students in a position to thrive. And as its name
    implies, FIU has an international focus, and I want to also
    speak to the importance of ensuring that international students
    have the same opportunities to succeed.
        They are pursuing the same dreams and have in many cases
    been equally impacted by the pandemic. So I want to thank you
    for the opportunity to speak here today, and I look forward to
    answering any questions you may have. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Thornton follows:]

                      Prepared Statement of Keith Thornton
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much Keith, thank you. We
    will now hear from Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley. Chancellor.

        STATEMENT OF CHANCELLOR ELOY ORTIZ OAKLEY, CHANCELLOR,
                     CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY COLLEGES

        Mr. Oakley. Well good afternoon everyone. And Chair Wilson,
    Ranking Member Murphy, and Members of the subcommittee my name
    is Eloy Ortiz Oakley. I'm a proud community college transfer
    student, and I'm pleased to serve as the Chancellor of the
    California Community Colleges.
        I'm honored to speak to you today on the future of higher
    education, as we look to the end finally, of the COVID-19
    pandemic. My remarks will focus on how our community colleges
    are supporting our students to stay enrolled and complete their
    studies, and how an effective partnership with Congress and the
    Federal Government can lead to an equitable recovery by
    investing in higher education and supporting the displaced
    workers ravaged by this pandemic.
        First, let me tell you a little bit about the California
    Community Colleges. We are the largest and most diverse system
    of higher education in the Nation with 116 colleges serving
    more than 2 million students in urban, suburban, and rural
    communities. They are the primary pathway to educational and
    economic mobility for Californians, and we are proud to serve
    the top 100 percent of our students.
        Like much of the Nation 1 year ago today, our State went
    into an immediate lockdown to ensure the health and safety of
    our workers, families, and students. Our colleges are--I want
    first commend Governor Gavin Newsom for his swift and decisive
    action. Our colleges also acted decisively.
        In a matter of weeks our faculty and college leaders
    mobilized to convert tens of thousands of courses and programs
    to an online, or remote modality. The support of Congress has
    been critical to our system, and our students during this
    critical moment.
        The funds provided by the CARES Act were used, among other
    things to help our diverse students purchase things like
    laptops, Wi-Fi hotspots, and as emergency financial aid to
    students who lost their jobs, in many cases were struggling to
    find their next meal, or stave off eviction.
        As we look to the future of higher education, the most
    important task is to ensure that students can attend, and
    afford the total cost of college. As no doubt you have heard,
    community colleges have seen a sudden and alarming decrease in
    enrollments since the start of the pandemic.
        We believe that this is due to many factors, foremost among
    them being that our students, they balance multiple
    responsibilities. They are parents. Primary breadwinners. They
    balance multiple jobs, and they share the same Wi-Fi with a
    full household and are facing--many of them are facing
    homelessness and other challenges.
        The economic devastation brought by the COVID pandemic has
    hit our lowest income students the hardest. We are appreciative
    of the ongoing discussions about tuition free community college
    and would note that California provides nearly three billion
    dollars in student financial aid to waive tuition for low
    income students attending community colleges and four-year
    universities.
        However, the cost of college goes beyond tuition. It
    includes textbooks, supplies such as laptops, housing, food,
    transportation and child care. We have used funds from the
    stimulus legislation passed by Congress to provide direct
    emergency one-time assistance to our most vulnerable students.
        We need stable, permanent system of student financial aid
    that acknowledges the true costs of attending college. This is
    true not just in California, but across the country where the
    movement to double the Federal Pell is gaining momentum, and we
    are pleased to support this effort.
        Our commitment is two-fold--increasing financial aid for
    students to cover non-tuition related expenses, and scaling
    those additional student supports that they need to complete
    their education. Additionally, financial support is needed to
    ensure equitable broad-band access for all.
        High-speed internet is not a luxury. If anything, what we
    have learned from this pandemic is that every American
    household must have access to reliable high-speed broadband. I
    also believe the community college training programs are
    critical to preparing America's workforce, and ensuring an
    equitable recovery. California's workforce programs, including
    those funded by the Federal Perkins Career Technical Education
    Program match, employers and high-skill, high-wage industries
    with educated and qualified workers.
        We strongly encourage these programs that provide new
    pathways to secure employment and that pay a living wage. I
    believe that we should place an emphasis of community college
    programs that focus on the skills and competencies workers need
    to get back into the workforce in a meaningful way.
        We also further support oversight of the for-profit
    industry. We thank Congress for including the America Rescue
    Plan Act language that strengthens the 90/10 rule which helps
    hold for-profits accountable for their reliance on Federal aid
    dollars.
        Finally, congressional action is needed to support our
    undocumented students. This is not a partisan issue for us.
    This is a moral and economic imperative. Undocumented students
    are our future teachers, business owners, doctors and
    entrepreneurs. We urge Congress to codify the deferred action
    for childhood arrivals program.
        I will close by adding that with regard to equity higher
    education now is the time to double down on efforts to insure
    that students have the supports they need to be successful,
    whether they're in California, middle America, or the Atlantic
    Coast. I'm proud to represent a State that leads with equity at
    the center of everything we do. We cannot do this alone.
    Ongoing Federal support, a partnership with the Biden
    administration, leaders of this subcommittee and the entire
    Congress are needed to make this happen.
        I thank you for the time. I'm honored to be here today, and
    I look forward to answering your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Oakley follows:]

                    Prepared statement of Eloy Ortiz Oakley
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We will now hear from
    Lindsey Burke.

    STATEMENT OF DR. LINDSEY M. BURKE, Ph.D., DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR
    EDUCATION POLICY, AND MARK A. KOLOKOTRONES FELLOW IN EDUCATION,
                        THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION

        Ms. Burke. Good afternoon. My name is Lindsey Burke. I am a
    Mark A. Kolokotrones Fellow in Education and the Director of
    the Center for Education Policy at the Heritage Foundation.
        Thank you Chairwoman Scott and Chairwoman Foxx and thank
    you subcommittee Chairwoman Wilson and Ranking Member Murphy
    for the opportunity to testify today.
        COVID-19 has posed challenges to every aspect of education
    in America from preschool through college. But it has also
    presented opportunities to rethink whether the current higher
    education system is serving students in the best way possible,
    and whether there are opportunities for reform.
        The congressional response to COVID-19 has now included
    three major aid packages. As part of the CARES Act passed in
    March 2020, higher education received 14 billion dollars in
    additional Federal funding on top of the sector's standard
    annual appropriations.
        That was followed by another 22.7 billion dollars in new
    funding as part of the December 2020 package. And then by the
    most recent American Rescue Plan Act which will provide yet
    another 40 billion to the higher education sector. In all,
    colleges will have received an additional 76 billion dollars in
    Federal spending over the past 12 months alone--a monumental
    sum, nearly equivalent to the Department of Education's entire
    annual discretionary budget.
        Colleges should now take the opportunity to make sure that
    that money is used responsibly. College boards of trustees and
    regents need to direct their universities to tackle program
    prioritization and reinvest funds in programs that advance
    their core mission rather than continuing to engage in a
    facilities and amenities arms race.
        From 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
    administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
    faculty. At the same time the 6-year completion rate for
    students pursuing a bachelor's degree stood at just 60 percent
    in 2020. One-third of college graduates are underemployed,
    working in jobs that do not require a bachelor's degree, and
    business leaders also report that college courses do not
    prepare graduates for the workforce, or provide them with the
    practical or technical skills needed to be successful in their
    careers.
        Schools should focus resources on teaching and learning and
    should evaluate productivity by assessing and prioritizing
    academic programs that really reinforce their core mission and
    prepare students for the workforce or further academic study.
    The colleges and universities should also review facilities and
    amenities expenditures and auxiliary services such as dining
    services and student housing, janitorial services, and consider
    outsourcing delivery and management of these functions which
    are unrelated to their core mission as academic institutions.
        And for its part Congress should not lose sight of the tens
    of billions in new relief funding now that it has been
    appropriated, and should make sure the Department of Education
    is providing timely and useful oversight of how colleges are
    spending that money.
        Congress should also rescind the elastic clause of the HEA
    prohibiting creditors from using their title for keeping
    authority to impose onerous regulations on institutions. And
    Federal policymakers should make space for private lending to
    re-emerge and for innovative education financing options to
    flourish by reducing Federal subsidies, including eliminating
    the Federal PLUS Loan program, both the parent PLUS and grad
    PLUS components.
        And finally, Federal officials should allow colleges to
    limit student borrowing. Currently, colleges are barred from
    assessing a student's likelihood of repaying a loan based on
    that student's course of study or borrowing history. Although
    these factors can predict a student's ability to repay their
    loans, colleges are not allowed to limit the amount students
    can borrow.
        Congress should amend the HEA to allow colleges to limit
    borrowing, helping students to exit school with lower levels of
    debt. Colleges and universities across the country do face
    challenges associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, but so does
    nearly every sector of society. Ever increasing Federal
    spending and subsidies will not correct problems that have
    plagued the higher education sector for decades, and which
    predated the Coronavirus.
        Congress should take this opportunity to pursue reforms
    that will help colleges navigate the pandemic, while also
    increasing their value proposition moving forward thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Burke follows:]

                     Prepared statement of Lindsey M. Burke
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much for your testimony.
    Finally, we will hear from Daniel Zibel, welcome.

      STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL A. ZIBEL, VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
            COUNSEL, NATIONAL STUDENT LEGAL DEFENSE NETWORK

        Mr. Zibel. Good afternoon Madam Chair Wilson, Ranking
    Member Murphy and Members of the committee. I am the Vice
    President and Chief Counsel of Student Defense. We use
    litigation and advocacy to bring change for students on issues
    of consumer protection and higher education.
        I want to thank you for having me here today. As we all
    know beyond the health effects and tragic losses of this past
    year, the Coronavirus has fundamentally altered so many aspects
    of American lives. With respect to higher education there have
    been enormous impacts on students, perspective students,
    families, study loan borrowers and repayment, recent graduates,
    or those who left school without a credential at all.
        COVID has exacerbated economic problems, including growing
    disparities in a system of higher education that has benefited
    so many, but has left so many others particularly in
    communities of color with long-lasting, negative effects.
        We are seeing signs now of an enrollment resurgence at for-
    profit colleges. Although overall, post-secondary enrollment
    decline in the fall of 2020, enrollment at for-profit colleges
    actually increased. This trend is similar to what happened
    around the Great Recession, and is worrisome in light of the
    overwhelming evidence that students who attend for-profit
    colleges have worse outcomes at large than their peers at
    public or non-profit institutions.
        Thankfully, the U.S. Department of Education has ample
    tools to make sure that taxpayer funded student loans and
    grants are not propping up predatory institutions while leaving
    students with mountains of debt and worthless degrees. This
    spring marks the 30th anniversary of a bipartisan report by the
    Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which offered
    a scathing review of the department's oversight mechanisms and
    led to bipartisan legislation that gave the department many of
    the oversight tools it has today.
        So at a time when the needs of students and borrowers are
    so pressing, the department is not effectively using the tools
    that Congress provided to ensure that colleges are best serving
    students and taxpayers. For example, on the heels of the 1991
    report, Congress sought to ensure that taxpayers were protected
    when colleges failed their students.
        Because taxpayers can be on the hook for hundreds of
    millions of dollars when an institution closes or defrauds its
    students, Congress authorized the department to recover
    financial losses, not only from institutions themselves, but
    also from the individuals who own or run those institutions,
    including board members and top executives.
        Thirty years later the department has never brought an
    action under this authority. The department has largely failed
    to fine schools for consumer facing wrongs, or issue other
    sanctions on predatory institutions. And there are far too many
    examples of the department certifying a school for years of
    access to student aid funds, even when a school is facing a
    known risk of losing State authorization or accreditation, or
    is under investigation by State and Federal law enforcement.
        Enforcement is not just about punishing misconduct. It's
    also about deterring future misconduct. But even in terms of
    routine compliance, the department's program review process and
    compliance audits are riddled with delays and inefficiencies.
    An Inspector General's sample of 739 audits over an 11 year
    period found more than 75 percent to have been conducted in a
    failing or deficient manner.
        I've noted additional failures in my written testimony.
    This is not to say that Federal student aid is always missing
    the mark. But given the enormous investment in student aid, and
    the life-long effects that failures can have on students and
    borrowers, the department must be doing a better job of
    oversight.
        I want to emphasize three additional high level
    recommendations. First, FSA must embed student protections in
    all of its decisions. Decisions should be about what is best
    for students. FSA currently considers regulated entities to be
    its partners. It's long past time for students and borrowers to
    be the true borrowers of the department.
        Second, the department must collaborate to reduce racial
    disparities around student debt. FSA should work closely with
    the department's Office for Civil Rights, and the Civil Rights
    Division of Justice, each of which has unique authorities and
    expertise.
        Third, FSA should create a public service office to oversee
    issues relating specifically to teachers, nurses and so many
    others. There should be personnel dedicated to coordinating
    with the VA on the GI bill, and with the Department of Defense
    on post-secondary programs for military members and their
    families.
        And the department must improve the bipartisan public
    service loan forgiveness program for all public servants. At
    this time, the department can and must do better. Oversight is
    one piece of a larger puzzle to ensure the promise of higher
    education. I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Zibel follows:]

                     Prepared statement of Daniel A. Zibel
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of
    the witnesses, and again welcome. Under Committee Rule 9(a) we
    will now question the witnesses under the five-minute rule. I
    will be recognizing our subcommittee Members in seniority
    order, again to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is
    adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time.
        And the timer will sound when time has expired. Please be
    attentive to the time. Wrap up when your time is over, and re-
    mute your microphone.
        As chairwoman I now recognize myself for five minutes.
        This question goes to Mr. Thornton. Have you had unexpected
    emergency expenses due to the pandemic? If so, how has
    receiving emergency funding, including from the CARES Act
    helped you meet your basic needs and ensure you could continue
    in school?
        And how do you think additional investments in student aid,
    like restoring the purchasing power of the Pell Grant would
    impact future generations of students?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you Congresswoman Wilson. So to
    answer this question I would say that you know some unexpected
    emergency expenses that have come up due to the pandemic are
    kind of what I mentioned was me, unfortunately losing my job
    last year, right before school started.
        Initially I had the job for about 2 months, and it put me
    in a position to where I was comfortable enough to be able to
    go out and you know get my own apartment. And with the job not
    needing as many employees, I was let go from that job, so it
    put me in a position to where I had to pour a lot of funds from
    my savings, and it put me in a position to where I wasn't
    really as able to provide for myself in terms of rent, bills,
    and even things concerning school, being able to purchase
    materials.
        So as far as receiving under the CARES Act, it literally
    came just in time, and I was able to use that to not only take
    care of myself as far as where I was staying, but even take
    care of myself as far as school is concerned. And I purchased
    the necessary materials in order to stay afloat and gain the
    wisdom and knowledge that I needed in order to pass my courses.
        So that was about later last year sometime, and to answer
    your question as far as additional investments in student aid.
    I think it would be awesome. I think it definitely would help
    us as students a lot, just given the current situation still
    with this pandemic, a lot of people are still losing their
    jobs.
        It's hard for people to even find jobs, and a lot of
    people, students my age, we work so that we can take care of
    ourselves as far as school is concerned. So when it comes to
    receiving additional funds and additional aid it would help a
    lot. I think it would definitely have a huge impact on us being
    able to stay in school an also be able to provide for ourselves
    concerning our school as well.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. And with programs
    like 5,000 Role Models of Excellence and the TRIO Program
    alone, how has mentoring impacted your success?
        Mr. Thornton. I would say it has greatly impacted my
    success even now. As I mentioned with a shout out to Ms.
    Tiffany Tyler who has played a huge role in me being here, in
    my first year here, she made it memorable, honestly.
        And for her to continue to remain in contact with me,
    checking with me, see how I'm doing with school, checking in on
    my GPA, making sure that I'm able to stay afloat, making sure
    that I'm applying to scholarships. She honestly helped me out
    so much. And for that I'm extremely grateful.
        And even within the 5000 Role Models of Excellence Program
    and TRIO Program, outside of mentors I was able to build
    lasting relationships with young men like myself who were a
    part of this program and who are still pursuing a degree. I
    know that Ms. Congresswoman Wilson is familiar with a fine
    young man named Preston Cooper who not only was my roommate he
    was a 5,000 Role Models Alum.
        And he's honestly been a great addition to my life and has
    helped me grow in many different ways. So the 5,000 Role Model
    in Excellence Program and TRIO Program has been tremendous and
    has helped me to get where I am now, as I mentioned to
    potentially be able to graduate by the end of this summer.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Mr. Zibel how can the
    Department of Education better protect students, especially
    those most vulnerable to abuse from predatory institutions?
    Predatory actors.
        Mr. Zibel. Sure thank you Chair Wilson. Look, under over
    the last 4 years I think what we've seen is an administration
    that eviscerated a lot of important protections for students.
    Repealing the gainful employment rule, raising the bar for
    Trump borrower defense, or you know the student loan discharges
    for defrauded students, you know, to the point where I think
    the last Congress even used the Congressional Review Act to try
    to veto what Secretary DeVos had done, stalling a worse relief
    for borrowers who had been defrauded by for-profit colleges.
        So part of it is restoring a lot of those protections, but
    that's not it. That can't be it. There has to be a cultural
    shift at the department by putting student interest first.
    Enforcement in this space can't just be about punishing actors,
    and providing debt relief after the fact. We've got to be
    deterring conduct in the first place.
        Student lives are at stake, and the ramifications of this
    are long-lasting, so we really need to be thinking about that
    first. Our organization has been writing a lot about this over
    the past six-months at 100daydocket.org about how to
    reinvigorate enforcement and really put those culture
    protections at the front end for all students and student loan
    borrowers.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I now recognize Dr.
    Foxx for her questioning.
        Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman I appreciate that. Dr.
    Burke, well thanks to all of our witnesses today. Dr. Burke
    thank you for your testimony. Congressional Democrats are
    passionate about oversight of one particular sector of
    postsecondary education, the for-profit sector.
        The congressional Republicans care about all students at
    all institutions. What are the current institutional
    accountability metrics in the Higher Ed Act and how effective
    are they? Were these effective during the pandemic, or were
    they exposed as deficient?
        Ms. Burke. Well thank you Chairwoman Foxx for that
    question. The current accountability metrics in the Higher
    Education Act, I would say are rather lacking if we just look
    at outcomes. And that applies to all sectors. I think that it
    is inaccurate to say that problems in higher education are
    solely a function of career and technical education programs.
        If we look at traditional four-year brick and mortar
    colleges, unfortunately, we see low graduation rates across the
    board. I mentioned that the 6-year graduation rate is 60
    percent earlier, that's something that should concern us all.
        I really think that we should compare apples to apples when
    we're thinking about accountability. If you look at certificate
    programs across the country, just 45 percent of students who
    pursue a certificate at a public college had earned it with 3
    years. That figure actually rises to 70 percent for students
    who attend for-profit colleges.
        And then there are other metrics as well. Andrew Gillan who
    researches in this area found that there are 514 colleges, many
    of these are community colleges at which the loan default rates
    of their students actually exceed their graduation rates, and
    he has called these red flag institutions.
        And so you know we need accountability across the board. I
    think one way to do that is to advertise the college scorecards
    a little bit more. There's a lot of data already on that
    college scorecard. There are data about almost everything that
    you could want to know about college outcomes.
        So I think it would help greatly if we had actors in the K-
    12 space like school boards, across the country making public
    schools aware of the information, making guidance counselors
    aware so they can provide that information to students.
    Sunlight really is the best disinfectant and that applies to
    accountability within the higher education system as well.
        And then of course I would argue that one of the
    accountability measures that we really need is accountability
    for taxpayer dollars because at the end of the day our taxpayer
    funds, the Federal Government originates and services 90
    percent of all student loans now.
        And a big step in the right direction, as I mentioned
    earlier, would actually be to reduce some of these Federal
    subsidies to make space for private lending to re-emerge.
    Private lenders are in a better position to judge a student's
    ability to repay those loans moving forward.
        I think that is the single best accountability measure that
    we could put into place.
        Ms. Foxx. Well thank you very much. When I heard Mr. Zibel
    say that it is inappropriate to punish actors, and we needed to
    put students first, I thought that he was talking about the
    Obama administration actually.
        Do you have an idea on how we could align the incentives of
    institutions, employers, taxpayers, and students. I think you
    mentioned about accountability, but how do we align the
    incentives so that it appears to be a win-win, instead of a
    win-lose situation all the time?
        Ms. Burke. Yes that's a great question Representative Foxx.
    I think one of the best things to do is really a State level
    effort, and we're already seeing this in 32 states across the
    country, Virginia, Tennessee, Indiana, many others, where they
    have policies in place that allocate their funds to public
    colleges based on measures that include course completion, so I
    think that's one good step in the right direction.
        And then again at the end of the day, I think we can take a
    cue from the market. We can look at what industry is doing when
    it comes to really realigning incentives. There are many
    industry upscaling programs that are out there at the moment.
    You can look at companies, Amazon, FedEx, others that will
    actually prepay tuition for programs that are aligned with
    different career paths within their organization, and so I
    think that's a way to really responsibly align incentives.
        A lot of that though is going to have to happen at the
    State level and within the private sector.
        Ms. Foxx. Great. Well you gave me a good segue to talk
    about fostering a culture of life-long learning, which we think
    is very important. But the current system is not designed for
    multiple access points and off ramps. What HEA reforms can
    Congress make to create a system where short-term programs,
    stackable credentials, and life-long learning is the new
    normal?
        Ms. Burke. Well that's such a critical question as well.
    You know there are conversations right now around allowing
    existing Title IV funds to go to shorter term programs to allow
    students to direct those dollars to options that currently
    aren't eligible under ETA rules because of those time
    limitations.
        I think that's a really good step in the right direction.
    That would enable a lot of individuals, people who want to
    switch careers, you know, mid-career to engage in earn and
    learn opportunities, to take some of those Title IV funds to
    shorter term program.
        I think that's a step in the right direction. There are
    larger reforms that need to take place like decoupling Federal
    financing from accreditation to allow Title IV dollars to flow
    in a more piecemeal way, but at least in the near-term, those
    short-term options are a good step in the right direction.
        Ms. Foxx. Thank you Madam Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Takano of
    California. Mr. Takano are you still connected? We'll come back
    to Mr. Takano. Is Mr. Murphy on? Mr. Murphy of North Carolina,
    Mr. Murphy.
        Mr. Murphy. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson. First of all I
    want to acknowledge Keith Thornton, Mr. Thornton, just to
    congratulate you on the fine work that you've done, wish you
    the best of success. You know that success comes from within,
    and it doesn't come from being handed down to you, but it comes
    from hard work and opportunity.
        So I congratulate you on what you've done, and encourage
    you to do even greater things and we look forward to hearing
    back from you. So a question I'll direct, at least the first
    one toward Dr. Burke, and thank you for joining us today. Your
    testimony will help us as we seek to work with our Democratic
    colleagues to reform the HEA, and the best interest of students
    and taxpayer.
        I want to stress the importance of bipartisanship. Last
    year Congress came together in a bipartisan manner to pass two
    COVID-19 relief packages that included specific, and very
    significant funding for postsecondary education.
        I have to say I was disappointed that this last funding
    package went across party lines and was not a bipartisan
    effort, and that's disappointing I think, not only for the
    country, but for our Congress as whole. We need to really work
    together. The American people are better served when we tackle
    problems shoulder to shoulder.
        In that vein Dr. Burke, let me ask your assessment of what
    Congress did last year with the Higher Education Emergency
    Relief Funding. Can you put into context the size and the scope
    of the postsecondary educational bailout? You talked about
    numbers before, but I'd like you to flush that out a little bit
    more if you will.
        Ms. Burke. Sure. Thank you Representative Murphy for that
    question. I did talk about numbers before. I think it's
    important to reiterate some of those numbers. The CARES Act was
    14 billion for higher ed, and then we saw the second package in
    December. That was another 21 billion dollars in that
    supplemental proposal.
        And then again colleges and universities will receive 40
    billion as a result of this third package. So in all we're
    talking about over 70 billion dollars. As I said this is more
    than the entire Department of Education's annual discretionary
    budget, so it really is a breathtaking sum.
        I did a back of the envelope calculation this morning, and
    if you consider the fact that there are 20 million roughly,
    college students across the country, and we have now expended
    as a result of these three packages in additional Federal
    spending, 76 billion. That's over $3,800.00 per college
    student, just in these additional funds that have gone out the
    door.
        So it really is like I said, I don't think there's a better
    word to describe it than a breathtaking sum of new Federal
    spending. And of course this is not free money. This is
    taxpayer money. It gets handed down to future generations.
    Right now we have about 28 trillion dollars standing as our
    national debt, that's $84,000.00 per person in the country, and
    this will certainly add to that.
        So it's a large amount of money and it really needs some
    oversight.
        Mr. Murphy. I think we're good. That's OK. All right. Well
    thank you Dr. Burke. Let me just say you know I've been very
    concerned about administrative bloat, and I wrote a couple
    papers on that. I was on a board of trustees at a liberal arts
    college, and I saw our administrative bloat compared to the 42
    other sister colleges skyrocket.
        My fear is that Mr. Zibel would prefer we had more
    committees, more Vice Presidents, more other bureaucracy. And
    as we've seen the level, the amount of educational dollars that
    actually go toward teaching students, does pale in comparison
    to that of adding more administrative bloat.
        I fear that now that we've poured all this massive money to
    colleges, instead of actually learning to contract their
    budgets and be responsible with them, will actually do just the
    opposite. We'll see more lazy rivers. We'll see more quiet
    oasis rooms. We'll veer from the mission of colleges to teach
    students before.
        So to your point they're going to now be flush with money.
    And anybody flush with money is probably in some ways, I fear,
    because of higher education and what they've done historically
    in the last 10-15 years, they're going to spend it. And what
    does that do in all of a sudden 5-10 years when that money runs
    out, all of a sudden that is going to be demanded upon students
    and giving them much, much, much higher access or risk, or
    again being bankrupt when they have all these massive charges.
        I wish you could speak to that just a little bit about
    administrative bloat, and what this money is you think in your
    prediction, is actually going to do to college costs in the
    future.
        Ms. Burke. Sure thank you for that question. Administrative
    bloat is a huge problem. We have seen significant numbers and
    staffing increases over the past decade. I mentioned earlier
    that from 2001 to 2011 the number of non-teaching employees and
    administrators increased 50 percent faster than teaching
    faculty and colleges across the country.
        If you just look at non-instructional staff at universities
    around the country, that now accounts for more than half of
    university payroll costs, the non-instructional staff. Just 40
    percent of full-time employees at non-doctoral colleges are
    instructional staff.
        And that figure actually drops to 28 percent at doctoral
    granting institutions. So just 28 percent at those institutions
    are teaching faculty. This is something that higher education
    scholar Preston Cooper has looked into at length, and he has a
    new report he just put out that I would commend where he
    recently found that since 2003 only one-third of the increase
    in colleges and universities core expenditures has gone to
    spending on instruction, just one-third of the increase goes to
    instruction.
        As he says almost all of the rest has fed the growth of the
    vast administrative apparatus of these institutions. And so as
    I mentioned in my opening statement, colleges really have
    needed a course correction for decades, and so you know, I
    think too many unfortunately are now looking at these various
    stimulus bills as a way to pay for general fiscal mal-
    administration over the past two decades.
        Mr. Murphy. Dr. Burke thank you. We're passed our time. I
    appreciate it. Thank you Madam Chairman, I'll yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you Mr. Murphy. Ms. Burke you are
    consistently going over time. Please be mindful of the clock.
    It's there for you. You seem not to hear me when I'm telling
    you that you're over time, so you will have to keep up with the
    time, and when you see that your time is up please stop. We
    have a long hearing and a lot of people to ask questions. Thank
    you.
        Mr. Takano of California is our next person, speaker.
        Mr. Takano. Thank you Madam Chair. My question is for
    Chancellor Oakley. Chancellor could you comment briefly on how
    California deals with the balance between the administrative
    costs and instructional costs?
        Mr. Oakley. Absolutely. And it's a pleasure to be here
    again answering these questions. First of all in California you
    know each State is different. But in California in the
    community colleges, we actually have a law. It's called the 50
    Percent Law, which requires every community college to assign
    at least 50 percent of all revenues that come from the State to
    instruction, to the classroom.
        Now because the nature of instruction has changed quite a
    bit over time, we have had to expand that view because there
    are a number of other efforts that go into supporting a
    student, including a lot of the student supports that help a
    student succeed. So that is the way we handle it, and I would
    also say that because our system is comprised of 73 districts,
    all have locally elected boards, as well as a State system
    which has a board of Governors.
        There is a sunlight all over our system. So these questions
    are constantly addressed. They're constantly examined, and
    we're constantly being held accountable for where our dollars
    go.
        Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor. You know this hearing is
    in relationship to the American Rescue Plan and how it relates
    to education. I know that in California your sister
    institutions, the California State University System, and the
    UC system, have suspended the use of standardized tests for the
    purposes of admission.
        Do you expect that--it's not really an experiment, it was
    sort of forced by circumstances. Do you expect these sorts of
    things, these sorts of practices to continue after the pandemic
    is over?
        Mr. Oakley. I do. In the California community colleges
    we've eliminated the use of standardized placement exams. We
    have found through our own research, as well as research that's
    happened across the country, that the use of standardized exams
    for the purpose of placing the students in courses has
    significantly undermined low-income students from all
    backgrounds.
        The same is true for standardized admissions exams. And I
    think the research is overwhelming now. I think places like the
    University of California have seen the impact that it has had
    on low-income students and communities of color. And I don't
    believe that we are going back to those practices in the
    future.
        Mr. Takano. Is it not true that this innovation, this
    experimentation of not using tests like the placement, or to
    place students into college level classes at California
    community colleges. But that was going on pre-pandemic is what
    I understand, and can you tell us about what you've seen? Is
    your faculty happy with this? Have the outcomes been good? Have
    your transfer rates suffered because of the fact that you're
    placing students by using instruments other than standardized
    tests?
        Mr. Oakley. So first of all the use of what we call
    multiple measures placement. That is using multiple sources of
    information to gain information about a student, and place them
    in the course that they deserve to be in, and particularly in
    math and English, has been going on for several years in
    certain pilots across the system.
        A couple of years ago this became law for the entire
    system. Since then students who have been placed using this
    method, without using standardized placement exams, students
    are succeeding in numbers equal to those students that may have
    begun in remedial courses before then.
        We have seen significant, significant increases in the
    number of students of color that have been placed in transfer
    level English and math, and they are succeeding at the same
    rates as other students. So we have seen nothing but success
    thus far. It's given us a lot of good information about how we
    continue to roll this system out.
        And as we continue to rely less and less on remedial
    courses, and rely more and more on providing students a pathway
    to getting into courses that actually count toward their
    educational goal. And that's been the biggest change. So many
    courses were created in remedial education before this change
    that were leading nowhere.
        And so many students, particularly those of low income
    status were getting trapped in these courses and not being able
    to complete their educational goal.
        Mr. Takano. Thank you Chancellor my time is up. It sounds
    like innovation was already happening in California community
    colleges, and it sounds like diversifying the higher education
    is also being significantly impacted. Madam Chair I yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. We'll now here from
    Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
        Mr. Grothman. Yes. Thanks for having me. I have a question
    here for Dr. Burke. You know over the weekend I ran into
    another woman, age 51. She got laid off. She had a general
    degree, had a good job, and now she can't find anything. And
    she was just bemoaning the fact that when she was you know,
    rather than go to a four-year college, why she wasn't a welder,
    a medical tech of some nature, something or other.
        And I still hear back home well-paid guidance counselors
    advising everybody to go to college when again and again, I
    find people not going to college lined up higher paid with less
    student debt, and more job security. What can we do to
    straighten out these reasonably well-paid guidance counselors
    to give people a little bit better advice, not to mention, on
    the other end of the thing.
        When I talked to our employers in construction, in medical
    field, and manufacturing. Well right now the only thing holding
    us back from building more housing in Wisconsin, we can't find
    anybody to do the work. What can we do to straighten out these
    guidance counselors there Dr. Burke? It's a lot of people's
    lives.
        Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Grothman. I completely
    agree with you that we need to be communicating to students
    that there are multiple pathways to climbing the ladder of
    upward, economic mobility in America. And too often, the only
    answer that we give them when asked what they should do, is
    attend a traditional four-year college.
        And that has not served many students well who would be
    better situated in the future if they did something other than
    go through that four-year brick and mortar route. And you know
    to your point about construction workers and mechanics,
    electricians, waitresses, you know, all of these individuals
    end up bearing the cost of Federal bailouts, and ever-
    increasing Federal subsidies in the higher education sector.
        I think it's always important to bear in mind that still
    today two-thirds of Americans do not hold bachelors degrees,
    and it is that two-thirds of Americans who also have to pick-up
    the cost for ever-increasing Federal spending.
        Mr. Grothman. OK. I'll give you a general question. You
    know again I hear talking to my trade unions or tech schools
    and people, you know, going back, getting a skill, maybe in
    their early 30's, after they already got a college degree in
    their early 20's.
        Percentage-wise Doctor Burke, I have no idea what
    percentage of people going to a four-year college would be
    better off not going to one today in your opinion.
        Ms. Burke. Well it's hard to say, and it depends on how you
    quantify better off. You know even an individual who might not
    see a massive increase in earnings after having graduated,
    might still say that the experience was worthwhile for them.
        People go to college for a lot of different reasons. But
    one thing we do know is there are an awful lot of students who
    leave without earning that paper credential that they had so
    fought to get. So many students right now are leaving without
    graduating, and I mentioned 60 percent, 6 year college
    graduation rate. And really the worst position you can be in is
    having gone to two or three or three and a half years of
    undergrad work, taken out those loans and not graduated with
    that paper credential.
        And unfortunately, we do see that in many cases. So I think
    that for those individuals you could make the case that another
    path would have been much more worthwhile, but it is hard to
    quantify.
        Mr. Grothman. Well, OK I know there's certain authors who
    take a stab at it, but I'm going to come back to the woman I
    talked to over the weekend. You know I frequently make the
    pitch for young people to get a skill, rather than college, and
    that you're going to graduate with less debt, and frequently
    make more money immediately.
        One thing I don't think is taken into account is if you do
    wind up with some middle low management thing, and you're laid
    off when you're 50 or 55, in our society frequently you're
    almost unemployable. Whereas if you have a skill, you can keep
    working until you're 60 or 70 or 80 if you want to. Could you
    comment on the benefit of having a skill, a specific skill set
    in manufacturing, med, tech, whatever, as opposed to a general
    degree on people who get laid off when they're over 40?
        Ms. Burke. Sure. Well what we do know, and I can't give you
    specific numbers on the skill-based side. But what we do know
    is that there are a large proportion of students who are
    leaving undergraduate work, and entering jobs that do not
    require a college degree. And so this high level of what we
    refer to as underemployment is a real problem.
        And I think does suggest that many of those students would
    have been better served pursuing options that are skills-based
    in nature.
        Mr. Grothman. Well thank you Dr. Burke. I appreciate what
    you're saying, and I hope you continue to educate young people
    around the country to get a second opinion from their guidance
    counselors, who are frequently well-paid and giving bad advice
    for their pay. Thank you.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ms.
    Jayapal from Washington I see you driving, welcome.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you Madam Chair. I am not driving I
    promise you, but I am in a car because I didn't want to miss
    this very important hearing. It is clear that the pandemic has
    had a negative impact on college enrollment for all students,
    particularly low-income, first generation, and certainly
    freshman of color, who we've seen a nearly 30 percent decline
    in community college enrollment across the country.
        And since a degree, a higher education degree, whether it's
    skills training, or a four year college, remains a strong
    pathway to the middle class our economic recovery may be
    largely dependent on affordable access to postsecondary
    education. And that's why I'm excited for the Seattle Promise
    Program in my district, and proposals like My College for All
    Act which President Biden has embraced, to make both four-year
    and two year public higher education free for families earning
    up to $125,000.00.
        Mr. Thornton it's very clear from your testimony that
    Federal programs like TRIO have been meaningful to you
    personally, and in your student career, in spite of programs
    that help some students shoulder the cost of textbooks,
    housing, food, and childcare, data still shows that due to
    COVID-19 as many as 56 percent of students will need additional
    aid to stay enrolled.
        Is it your opinion that more comprehensive Federal
    assistance would help students to stay in school?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for asking, and I
    definitely agree that additional funding would help students be
    able to stay in school. I think kind of being a living
    testimony to the current situation with the pandemic, me plus a
    bunch of other students like myself, some people we literally
    worked, some students we worked to actually stay in school to
    pay tuition, to pay to afford books and school materials.
        And I think that additional funding definitely would assist
    in the students being able to stay in school, and pursue their
    dreams, or their dream job, or pursue a career with their
    major.
        Ms. Jayapal. So important. Thank you so much. Considering
    Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of the [audio issues] to
    less than 30 percent at a public four-year college, would you
    speak more on this disparity making college increasingly out of
    reach for too many people?
        Mr. Vassar. I think the beginning of your question was not
    heard Congresswoman Jayapal.
        Ms. Jayapal. Oh OK, thank you. This is a question for
    Chancellor Oakley. Non-tuition costs are an important
    consideration since Pell has gone from covering 80 percent of
    expenses to less than 30 percent at a public four-year college.
    Would you speak more on this disparity making college
    increasingly out of reach for too many people?
        Mr. Oakley. Absolutely and thank you for that question
    Representative Jayapal. This is particularly an acute situation
    in states like California. High cost of living states, high
    cost of living communities. Our students, particularly those
    who attend California community colleges and those who attend
    broad access public institutions come from some of the lowest
    income communities in California and throughout the country.
        So the cost of attending college is the most significant
    cost. States like California for example, the California
    community colleges has the lowest tuition in the country. In
    addition, more than half of our students don't pay tuition
    because of the California College Promise.
        So the cost of attending college, the true cost of
    attending college is the issue that keeps so many students from
    one, attending college, and two, attending full-time because so
    many of them have to juggle multiple issues, have to maintain
    work in order to provide for their families and for their own
    education.
        So Pell is a significant component to helping those
    individuals afford to go to college, to complete their college
    education in a four-year period of time. And it has not been
    keeping up with the cost of attending college.
        And so supporting an increase in Pell is certainly
    something that we support, as well as continuing to reduce the
    cost of attendance is also a key ingredient.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And my College For All bill
    would double Pell, and it would allow states with tuition
    programs to redirect any of their savings toward making college
    more accessible. How would--my College for All bill also uses a
    Federal/State partnership to make public four-year universities
    free for qualifying students.
        Chancellor, how would having a Federal partnership that
    allows states to redirect savings to non-tuition costs help
    colleges nationally as they struggle with low enrollment?
        Mr. Oakley. Well I believe this Federal/State partnership
    is critical. States are in the primary role of providing
    support for our colleges and universities and they're doing--
    states like California are doing a remarkable job of providing
    the additional support, lowering tuition, keeping tuition low,
    keeping the cost of college low.
        So this partnership would be beneficial in that states like
    California could use those additional resources to provide
    additional support for students, either support services or
    support for non-tuition related costs.
        Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. And this is a key important
    piece, and I look forward to working with you. Madam Chair I
    yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. According
    to my records Mr. Good of Virginia is the next questioner. Mr.
    Good you're on.
        Mr. Good. Thank you Madam Chairman, and thank you to all of
    our witnesses for being with us today. My questions will be
    directed specifically to Dr. Burke. Dr. Burke I wanted to ask
    you how do you think Federal funding has contributed to the
    exploding costs of higher education?
        Ms. Burke. Well thank you for that question Representative
    Good. It has clearly contributed. If you look at the inflation
    adjusted tuition rates since the 1970's. Those have quintupled
    at both public and private colleges across the country. And
    then when you compare that number to Federal subsidies, and
    those subsidies over the same time period have really increased
    dramatically with spending on student loans rising 328 percent
    over the last 30 years, from about 20 billion in 1990 to about
    87.5 billion in the most recent year of data available.
        So, and I would also say that this question of
    disinvestment and State spending is I think, also a little bit
    off the mark. Because if you look at appropriations for public
    colleges and universities at the State level, those have
    increased $1,700.00 per pupil in real terms since 1980.
        So it is safe to say, I would agree with Economist Richard
    Vetter at the University of Ohio that dumping Federal subsidies
    out of helicopters as he once put it, has only enabled
    universities to increase their costs, their spending
    profligately, and really pass that on to students.
        Mr. Good. I've had students tell me, and parents tell me
    that once they get on the student loan treadmill it just
    continues. In other words they get loans, it's almost you have
    to work deliberately to stop the student loans from coming.
    Once you enroll that first semester that first year, it seems
    automatic.
        In your testimony you talked about requiring university's
    report on the use of Federal funding. What specific questions
    might you ask them to report on?
        Ms. Burke. Sure. And I think specifically with regard to
    the new money that has gone out the door, we really need to
    know whether colleges are using these funds to actually help
    students who are struggling. There's statutory requirements.
    About 50/50 of those dollars going to student-based aid, and
    then the other 50 percent going to institutional priorities,
    but we really do need to take a look and encourage colleges,
    and the Department of Ed to assess if they're sending that
    money to students who are financially struggling.
        And then second I would say, we should assess if they're
    actually using those funds to build out their IT and distance
    learning capacities to navigate any sort of similar existential
    threat in the future that they might face like another
    pandemic.
        Mr. Good. You've done a great job of verbalizing what most
    of us have already seen in the way that college education costs
    are just going through the roof, far outpacing inflation,
    multiple times over.
        Besides addressing funding, what policies do you think
    Congress could do that could help enact the amount of the non-
    classroom, non-education expenses specifically, the more what
    many might think are wasteful or exorbitant, or excessive,
    whether it's staff, or whether it's activities that are being
    funded.
        What role do you think Congress could play. How could
    Congress help address the amount of spending that's going to
    administrative type and other, maybe what some people might
    think, excessive and wasteful spending?
        Ms. Burke. Well I think the single best thing Congress
    could do would be eliminate the Plus Loan program. The Grad
    Plus Loan program in particular, this allowed graduate students
    to borrow up to the cost of attendance, and then the Parent
    Plus program allows parents to borrow for their undergrad
    student's college experience.
        And that really encourages, a family level of debt, and
    family level borrowing for families. So eliminating the Plus
    Loan program would be the No. 1 step to take. And as I
    mentioned earlier, actually allowing colleges themselves to
    limit the amount of money that students borrow.
        Mr. Good. It seems we have systemic issues where there's
    not a partnership between parents, families if you will, of
    students and the institutions, and trying to together work to
    make college affordable without putting people of course into
    excessive debt.
        What might be included? What role might Congress play to
    help improve competition in such that like a career in
    education, a technical education, temporary programs,
    vocational programs, community college, and other workforce
    development pathways might be able to get on equal footing with
    the traditional four-year school.
        Ms. Burke. Yes thanks. Again, I think one of the best
    options there would actually be reforming accreditation,
    decoupling Federal financing from accreditation to allow new
    quality assurance mechanisms to pop up, to allow a State to for
    instance, enable the Mayo Clinic to credential a nursing
    course, or the State of Virginia to allow Mount Vernon to
    credential a history course.
        And then enable Title IV funds to actually follow students
    to those individually credentialled courses and courses of
    study. And again, couple that with those short-term options for
    Title IV funding that would allow individuals to go find the
    skills and competencies they need immediately without going
    through a four-year brick and mortar college, would be a second
    extremely important step in that direction.
        Mr. Good. I think I've about expired my time. I thank you
    very much for answering my questions, and again appreciate you
    and all the other witnesses being with us today. I yield back
    my time Chairman.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Ms. Leger Fernandez
    of New Mexico welcome.
        Ms. Leger Fernandez. Hello. Thank you so much Chair Wilson.
    And thank you to the witnesses for joining us today. Mr. Zibel,
    we've heard misrepresentations about your testimony. Would you
    like to respond quickly?
        Mr. Zibel. Thank you Congresswoman. You know I think there
    were two comments. One from Ranking Member Foxx. I guess to put
    it bluntly, I don't think I said anything about punishment not
    being important. I think it is an important aspect of deterring
    misconduct.
        And when there is an institution of higher education, and
    we've seen this for decades. I really would encourage the
    Members to go back and look at the bipartisan report that
    Senator Sam Nunn and his committee drafted, back in the early
    nineties.
        And it really is deja vu all over again for some of what
    we've been seeing. And you know this is about protecting
    students at the front end. This is about making sure that
    students aren't saddled with debt, that they will never repay
    because of worthless degrees. This is about making sure that
    individuals are getting the economic opportunity through
    education to better their lives, and to ensure that the
    taxpayer investment in this, through grants and loans is being
    well spent.
        So you know it's not about partisan politics. I think if
    you look back at the history of this, Secretary Bennett, the
    Education Secretary under President Reagan was a fierce critic
    of the for-profit education industry, and for good reason at
    that time. And you know, history has a tendency to repeat
    itself, and you know, that's what the Department of Education
    needs to be doing, is really making sure that that does not
    happen again.
        It does not happen to saddle yet another generation of
    students with these mountains of debts that will never be
    repaid.
         Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you for that clarification, and
    also making sure that we all focus. Our focus should be,
    indeed, on the students. And in thinking about the focus on the
    students I am, like the chair and others who have testified
    today, concerned about the non-tuition costs of college, and
    that the pandemic has simply worsened food insecurity, and that
    that's something that the Rescue Act can address with the
    emergency funding.
        Miss Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
    record an article from the Santa Fe Reporter entitled, ``New
    Mexico College Students Face Food Insecurity.''
        Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
        Ms. Leger Fernandez. I'm also concerned about declines in
    student enrollment. And students of color in particular, right,
    have seen steep enrollment declines during the pandemic. In New
    Mexico, as an example, we've seen about a 10 percent decline
    from fall 2019 to fall 2020.
        We are also in New Mexico, facing the need to diversify our
    energy sector and move to a green economy, and will really need
    those partnerships without our higher education schools to lead
    in training for this just renewable innovative economy, like I
    like to say, in New Mexico.
        In Santa Fe Community College we just partnered with our
    National Labs and the renewable energy sector connecting
    schools and employers. Chancellor Ortiz Oakley, what do you
    believe are the best practices to recover student enrollment,
    and especially addressing those programs which could develop
    the workforce for new economies like the green economy?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman.
    First and foremost, I strongly believe that community colleges
    are the greatest answer to a recovery with equity in America.
    They are closest to the students that we're talking about. They
    open their arms to every student, whether recently displaced
    worker, or a recent graduate from a high school.
        And community college is college, so they are preparing
    students for success in 21st Century economy. So first of all,
    I believe one of the greatest impacts on our students has been
    the economic fallout, the health effects from the pandemic. Our
    communities of color and low-income communities have been hit
    the hardest. So for them it is an economic issue, so providing
    direct, emergency support of any kind possible, is one of the
    best antidotes to helping them be able to make the choice
    between paying rent, and paying for their tuition and books, so
    that they can continue their education.
        Second, it's addressing the needs of displaced workers. So
    many working adults were already struggling post the last
    recession. This pandemic, the economic fallout, has devastated
    their opportunity to be in the economy in a meaningful way. So
    supporting short-term, career-training programs, to help get
    the support, the skills and competencies that workers need
    today, I think is critically important to a recovery with
    equity.
        Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much Chancellor, I
    yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Ms. Miller-Meeks of Iowa
    you're next. You're now live.
        Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much. I appreciate it Madam
    Chair. Thank you for holding this subcommittee hearing, and for
    providing for the witness testimonies. Thank all of you for
    testifying today. So I'm a little unusual. I'm one of eight
    kids. When I was burned at 15, decided to become a doctor. And
    so I left home at 16.
        I actually enrolled in San Antonio Junior College as it was
    called at that time, then was able to get a degree in nursing,
    a master's in education and ultimately a medical degree. So I
    fully support what you've said about community colleges and a
    pathway for education, especially for minority, for women, for
    under-represented groups of low-income, but actually for any
    student who wishes to go onto college, especially if they're
    concerned and aren't quite sure what they want to major in, or
    what will be a successful career path for them.
        Having said that I was able to work, go to school and have
    a combination of loans. And so my question for Dr. Burke is
    that there appears to be a dramatic rise in the number of loans
    borrowed for graduate level programs, and often these graduate
    level programs lead to high-paying jobs.
        And I'm concerned about the combination of unlimited
    Federal lending, and unlimited loan forgiveness for these
    individuals who may ultimately result in a higher income career
    pathway. So can you briefly explain in you're concerned about
    this, and you know what can Congress do to create a responsible
    lending program, and how can these reforms lead to lowered
    college cost for students?
        Ms. Burke. Great thank you Representative Miller-Meeks. I
    appreciate that. It is, it's a major concern I think for many
    of us. The proposals that are out there right now to forgive
    student loan debt anywhere from $10,000.00 to $50,000.00 and
    student loan debt, depending on what proposal you look at, are
    incredibly regressive in nature.
        They would really shift the burden of paying for college
    away from those individuals who do in fact directly benefit
    from their education onto, as I mentioned, the two-thirds of
    Americans who don't have bachelors degrees, and would
    presumably not earn as much down the road on average, as their
    college-going counterparts.
        And you also bring up a really important point, which is
    the point about professional degrees and borrowing. We know
    that individuals who pursue professional degrees in particular,
    on average, do quite well. Doctors, lawyers, and so the idea
    that we would forgive those student loans among those
    individuals who statistically speaking are likely to earn a
    decent living moving forward, really, as I said earlier, is
    regressive.
        And so I think to get back to my earlier point, if we want
    to drive down costs, we need to tackle the Plus Loan program.
    The private lending market will meet the needs of students who
    are pursuing professional degrees, knowing full well that their
    ability to repay those loans will be very high in the future.
        Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you for that. And in Iowa we have
    concurrent enrollment for high school and for community
    colleges as pathways to success. We also have the Iowa Student
    Loan program, and you had mentioned about private lending and
    Federal lending.
        We're very concerned. They do a great job of mentoring
    students, advising them, looking at if they're a certain
    educational pathway, how that will result in income and ability
    to pay back loans. And I'm concerned about, you know, doing
    away with an institution such as the Iowa Student Loan program
    which does a great job of preparing students and also giving
    financial literacy.
        So if students want to find good jobs after college, and
    that could mean that it leads to a baccalaureate, but it could
    be a different career pathway. And there is a discrepancy
    between what students feel like they know what employers say
    about their job readiness, and I just was going to ask if there
    are some non-traditional education pathways that students
    should be exploring, Dr. Burke.
        Ms. Burke. Thank you. There certainly are a lot of really
    innovative non-traditional pathways that are out there, and I
    think interest is growing in these pathways, because we know
    that employers, as I mentioned earlier, are reporting that
    students who attend the traditional four-year route, aren't
    often prepared.
        There was a survey that came out in 2018 from the National
    Association of Colleges and Employers that found that although
    almost 80 percent of students believe they're proficient in
    oral and written communication, just 42 percent of employers
    agreed.
        And then that survey was followed-up by a subsequent survey
    from the Association of American Colleges and Universities that
    found that similarly, while 62 percent of students felt they
    were competent in these skills, just 28 percent of employers
    agreed. So this gap in skills was eluded to earlier, does have
    negative economic impacts.
        It's left more than six million jobs empty across the
    country, so I think all of that calls into question the value
    add for a lot of institutions.
        Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you Madam Chair. I yield back my
    time.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. And now our good
    friend Mr. Jones of New York. Welcome to the committee,
    welcome.
        Mr. Jones. Thank you so much for your leadership Madam
    Chair. And thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing
    before us today. On behalf of the American people I want to
    thank Chancellor Oakley for your innovative work to address the
    challenges faced by community college students during the
    pandemic.
        Mr. Zibel, for your work to hold the bad actors in our
    higher education system accountable, and of course Mr. Thornton
    for sharing your important first-hand experiences as a student
    during these hard times. While the ongoing pandemic has put a
    strain on colleges and universities, we can all agree that the
    core problems in U.S. higher education predate the COVID-19
    pandemic.
        Wages have been stagnant for literally decades when you
    adjust for inflation, even as the cost of a four-year college
    education has soared. The average debt of someone graduating
    from a four-year college or university today is four times
    higher than it was in the early nineties, and this burden is
    not shared equally.
        Women, people of color, and members of the LGBTQ community
    hold a disproportionate amount of student debt, and find
    themselves less likely to graduate with a four-year degree. In
    my district, in Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York,
    where the cost of living is sky-high, thousands of young people
    must live at home with their parents in part, due to the
    student debt that they shoulder.
        This delays, or outright forecloses their home ownership,
    which we know to be the single greatest generator of wealth in
    America. So I look forward to working with my colleagues to
    address these issues, and want to thank them for their work to
    make college accessible, affordable, and equitable for all.
        Before turning to my questions, I do want to set the record
    straight on the idea that increases in financial aid somehow
    lead to increases in tuition. That is simply not true. First of
    all no study on the so-called Bennett hypothesis has been able
    to find convincing evidence that this hypothesis is real, at
    least at public institutions.
        However, a rigorous study found that for-profit
    institutions eligible for Federal student aid, charged 78
    percent more than comparable programs at ineligible, for-profit
    institutions. This strongly suggests that we need better
    oversight of the for-profit sector, not that we should stop
    providing students with Federal aid to enroll in college.
        Mr. Zibel, I'd like to begin with you. As you stated in an
    interview last year, there are many problems for the government
    to address in this country right now, and the Department of
    Education doesn't have to wait for Congress to act when it
    comes to providing student debt relief.
        I've been a leader on this issue in the Congress. Indeed
    Congress has already given the Department of Education clear
    statutory authority to forgive Federally owned student debt
    under the Higher Education Act. So Mr. Zibel would you agree
    that under existing law, yes or no, the President or his
    education secretary has the ability to forgive federally-owned
    student loan debt with a stroke of a pen.
        Mr. Zibel. So thank you Congressman for your question, and
    I appreciate your earlier commentary leading up to it. This is
    an important topic, and something that I understand that the
    White House and the department are taking a very, very close
    look at. You know quite frankly it is not something I have ever
    taken the kind of legal dive that I think needs to be taken.
        And I really want to defer to the experts who have taken
    the dive on that one before, commenting in front of Congress
    today. But I think what's immediately clear is that there are
    buckets of student loan borrowers for whom that immediate 100
    percent loan relief is doable right now. These are the 400,000
    borrowers who government has already determined are eligible
    for total and permanent disability discharges.
        These are the borrowers that the department has already
    found victimized by predatory for-profit colleges. These are
    borrowers who are attending schools that closed. And government
    needs to be taking those steps right now today, to discharge
    100 percent of those loans.
        Mr. Jones. Yes. Mr. Zibel I appreciate that, reclaiming my
    time, and actually I agree with you, and I would like to enter
    it back into the record a paper you co-authored in October 2020
    on this very issue of for-profit colleges, personally causing
    financial losses to students and taxpayers because of their
    misconduct. Madam Chair I'd like to enter that into the record.
        Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
        Mr. Jones. And I would just to put a finer point on this, I
    understand that you don't consider yourself an expert on this
    subject, but Mr. Zibel you would at least agree that the
    Department of Education has already used its statutory
    authority to pause the collection of student debt, and indeed
    the accrual of interest, which is obviously a form of student
    debt cancellation, yes or no?
        Mr. Zibel. Yes. I mean quite----
        Mr. Jones. Thank you. Reclaiming my time. Thank you so
    much. And finally, as we close, as concerns about the spread of
    COVID-19 increase, so did reported incidents of bullying,
    racism, and xenophobia toward the Asian, Asian American, and
    Asian Pacific Islander, or AAPI communities on college campuses
    across the country.
        Consequently, individuals from these communities reportedly
    afraid to engage on basic day to day tasks, like going to the
    grocery store, or walking alone in their neighborhoods.
    Chancellor Oakley, what can colleges and universities do to
    ensure that AAPI students feel safe and valued in their classes
    and on campuses?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. First
    of all to be very clear, all colleges and universities should
    immediately and clearly repudiate any attacks on the Asian
    American or Pacific Islander community. We need to engage
    directly with our students, our faculty and our staff to
    discuss these issues, to ensure that we remove the stigma that
    has been applied to Asian American communities around the
    COVID-19 pandemic, or anything else.
        So we should treat this issue like we would any other
    racial reckoning issue and take it on head-on. We have a direct
    role in that, and we have our classrooms and our colleges, and
    our microphone to be able to weigh in on this.
        Mr. Jones. Thank you sir. Madam Chair I yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Let me be mindful to
    the witnesses. There's a time limit. And when you see stop I
    will give you the opportunity to finish your thought, but not a
    whole minute. Some of these issues are so important we need to
    address them, but we have to be fair. Thank you so much. And
    now Mrs. McClain of Michigan you're now live Mrs. McClain.
        Mrs. McClain. Thank you so much Madam Chair. I appreciate
    the opportunity to be on this committee, and I appreciate
    everyone on the committee as well as all the witnesses. My
    question is really regarding oversight and directed to Dr.
    Burke.
        You suggest Congress keep a watch on the tens of billions
    of dollars colleagues are spending in emergency relief. What
    exactly are some categories of expenses you are most interested
    in, and what indicators should Congress pay attention to that
    show it used taxpayers money responsibly?
        Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Representative
    McClain. So as I eluded to earlier, there are statutory
    allowances for these additional funds, and then there are the I
    think recommendations for what colleges should be using these
    funds for.
        So for example, the public and non-profit schools can use
    the money in these emergency higher education reform dollars
    for financial aid to students, and then they can use about half
    for institutional revenue, so that can be anything from faculty
    and staff training, it can be payroll costs, it can be
    backfilling lost revenue, it can be backfilling lost revenue
    due to a lack of sporting events, so it really runs the gamut.
        So those are indeed allowable uses of these funds. At the
    university level though, I think what they really should be
    using these funds for is to support struggling students. And as
    I said earlier, build out their IT infrastructures so that they
    can navigate these challenges in the future.
        And so I think that's the role of oversight at the
    Department of Ed, is to really look at what they're doing. They
    do have to submit reports, universities do regularly on how
    they're spending these funds. I hope the department makes those
    reports as public as possible.
        Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I yield back my time. Thank you
    very much.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. We'll now hear from Ms.
    Manning of North Carolina.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all
    the witnesses for being with us today. My first question is to
    Chancellor Oakley. I have two terrific community colleges in my
    district. I visited them when I was in district last to see the
    incredible things they're doing, and how they're holding up
    during his pandemic.
        They're doing all they can to support their students, but
    they have seen enrollment decline. How have you handled the
    tuition, the reduce tuition revenue from declining enrollment
    if your community colleges had to take cost-cutting measures?
    And if so, what kinds of things are they doing?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Representative
    Manning. And North Carolina has amazing community colleges.
    First of all, the pandemic has had a direct impact on the
    revenue and expenses that community colleges have had to incur.
        One, as you mentioned, there has been a decline in
    enrollment. This means a decline in student fees, tuition,
    other revenue that colleges collect, as well as the increased
    cost to going remote or online almost overnight, providing the
    training to support the faculty, and the direct support to
    students.
        So what we've done is work first and foremost with a State,
    the legislature and the Governor, to make sure that they are
    aware of those costs, and make sure they are aware of those
    revenue declines.
        Fortunately, Governor Newsom and the legislature provided
    direct support for our colleges and universities, and we've
    also been working with Congress. We're very appreciative of the
    aid that you've provided us. I do agree that that aid needs to
    go to support students, and support the classrooms, so that we
    can become more resilient.
        And I think by and large, community colleges across the
    Nation have done exactly that. They have been on the front
    lines. They did an amazing job of on a dime, transitioning to
    remote learning, and that remote learning has had a cost. And
    so we need to continue to support community colleges like yours
    in North Carolina, because they do the yeoman's work in
    supporting those who have been hit hardest by the pandemic.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you. And as hope is on the horizon and
    we look toward the post-pandemic world, what steps do you think
    community colleges can take to reverse those enrollment
    declines?
        Mr. Oakley. Well I think given the resources that have been
    made available, community colleges need to be reaching out
    directly to their communities, directly to their students,
    trying to understand what their needs are, ensuring that
    emergency aid goes directly to them, and working with
    employers, and community members to provide them the jobs that
    they need, the hours that they need in order to make ends meet,
    so that they can continue their education.
        So I think that is the beauty of community colleges, they
    are in communities, they work with community members, mayors,
    employers, that has to be done on steroids in order for us to
    reach those students.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you. Let me ask you about another area.
    I am a former immigration attorney, and the plight of
    undocumented students is one that is of great concern to me.
    And I believe we need to find a pathway to citizenship for our
    DACA students, as well as a pathway to success for all of our
    future workers.
        Is this something that you believe we need to address, and
    do you have any comments on what we can be doing to address
    this?
        Mr. Oakley. We absolutely need to address this. California
    community colleges have over 70,000 DACA students, the largest
    of any State in the country. These are individuals that serve
    their communities. They work in their communities. They do
    everything possible to support their communities, so we need to
    provide them the support that they need to come out of the
    shadows, get the education that they need, and contribute
    meaningfully to the economy, and to support their families.
        So absolutely, we would implore Congress to codify the DACA
    program, and to provide a pathway to citizenship.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you so much sir. I'm going to turn to
    Mr. Zibel. I recently received an e-mail from a constituent who
    was very concerned because her non-profit college is being
    merged with an out of State institution that was formerly a
    for-profit institution, but is becoming non-profit.
        And in tracking colleges that convert from for-profit to
    non-profit status, the Century Foundation found that three non-
    profit schools with the most fraudulent complaints were those
    that had converted to non-profit status, but have not truly
    shifted their governance or power structures away from owners
    who had a financial interest.
        What are for-profits colleges, or why rather, are for-
    profit colleges increasingly converting to non-profit status,
    and what role should the Education Department play in ensuring
    that if they say they're non-profit they actually are?
        Mr. Zibel. So I see that my time is just about up, if it I
    may permitted this briefly, I can try and do that. I think the
    reality is that the department needs to be scrutinizing
    transactions very, very carefully to make sure that what is a
    bona fide non-profit, is actually a non-profit and that a for-
    profit is not acting as a non-profit.
        And I think GAO put out a report about a month and a half
    ago or so, on this issue, actually said the department was
    doing a better job of reviewing these and scrutinizing these,
    but really this isn't a one stop look at a school, it's got to
    be a long-term constant review to make sure that the people who
    are profiting before aren't still profiting after the
    transaction.
        Ms. Manning. Thank you so much and I yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, thank you. I know
    it's hard remotely. Next we'll hear from Mr. Comer of Kentucky.
        Mr. Comer. Thank you Madam Chair, and I'm going to wear
    both my committee hats with these questions, my Education
    Committee as well the Oversight Committee. Over the last few
    years Congress has appropriated record levels of funding to
    universities and many universities are using it well.
        For instance, universities in my district have really
    focused on trying to provide educational opportunities that are
    focused on the workforce, and what the regional employers want
    and need and offer the best paying jobs.
        Kalamazoo University is a great example. They've adapted
    the certification process then I have some communities
    colleges--Henderson Community College, Madisonville Community
    Colleges, working on some really innovative workforce
    development type programs that are in need.
        So the funds that have been invested in those programs
    obviously have been well-spent, however there are valid
    concerns that in many other instances, many of the universities
    didn't serve the students with the best possible outcome and in
    their best interest about the taxpayers and the student.
        Last year the Trump administration issued a ruling
    clarifying that only Title IV eligible students qualify to
    receive emergency student aid funding provided by the CARES Act
    and COVID relief. The rule is currently held up in the court
    process. My question is for Dr. Burke. Do you think the rule
    was consistent with other practices related to Federal student
    aid? I'll stop there.
        Ms. Burke. Thank you Representative Comer. I do think it is
    consistent. These funds are open just to students who are Title
    IV eligible, that's consistent not only with Title IV broadly,
    but it's also consistent with other prior practices. If you
    look at the 1996 Welfare Reform Act for example, that limited
    public assistance programs to most legal immigrants for five
    years, or until they attained citizenship.
        So there's precedent there as well, not only in the
    existing Title IV program, but also in the '96 Act.
        Mr. Comer. Dr. Burke what's the most responsible way
    institutions can direct these emergency student aid dollars?
        Ms. Burke. Yes, right. So it's a great question. They
    really should target it toward students who are in the most
    need of that spending. And many of these dollars are flowing to
    universities based on the proportion of students who are Pell
    eligible, and so there is that built in system in place already
    which was a good step in the right direction I think, a good
    safeguard to put into place.
        But making sure that you know at the university level,
    they're not just giving a blanket across the board aid to every
    student in the institution of you know $1,000.00 or whatever it
    might be, but actually assessing those students who are in need
    at the university level.
        Mr. Comer. Great. Let me shift gears and talk about COVID-
    19 that the health and educational institutions adapt to meet
    the challenges of COVID-19, that the Department of Education
    and Congress provided many of these institutions temporary
    relief from a lot of regulatory burdens.
        Dr. Burke are there any related modified regulations or
    guidance that Congress should re-evaluate as institutions are
    planning for future semesters?
        Ms. Burke. Sure thank you. So as I mentioned earlier I
    think there are a few regulations that are in place that do
    deserve a second look. That elastic clause that I mentioned in
    my opening testimony, I know it sounds like a very specific
    reform, but right now that enables accreditors to layer on
    numerous additional requirements on a university. Just a
    hypothetical, if an accreditor wanted to mandate a dress code,
    it's not outside of the scope of that elastic clause.
        And so removing that clause to keep what accreditors can do
    solely focused on the metrics that are contained within the
    statute of the HEA would be a very good step in the right
    direction.
        Mr. Comer. OK. That's good to know. Dr. Foxx, and Fred
    Keller, and myself are all on the Oversight Committee. We're
    really focused on the regulatory process and the change of
    administration has brought a lot of regulatory changes and
    uncertainty in a lot of different industries and education
    would be right in there.
        So we relaxed a lot of regulations during COVID, and in
    many cases that worked out very well. And I would like to make
    a lot of those relaxed regulations permanent. Obviously, we
    always have to look at the regulatory process, and education is
    no different. So I appreciate that. And Madam Chair I
    appreciate the hearing, and look forward to future hearings,
    and appreciate our witnesses for being here today. I yield
    back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you. And now
    we'll hear from Mr. Bowman of New York, who is the new Vice
    Chair of the full Education and Labor Committee, welcome. Proud
    of you.
        Mr. Bowman. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you to all the
    witnesses for being here today. My question is for Mr.
    Thornton. I'm going to start with Mr. Thornton. During your
    testimony you mentioned that at one point you didn't feel that
    college was for you, or you didn't feel that you were college
    material. I know I'm paraphrasing here.
        Can you speak to why that was? Like why did you have that
    feeling at that time?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Bowman.
    And the reason why I felt that way, so this was my freshman
    year. And coming into school, honestly, things began to get a
    little rough for me personally, primarily with school, being
    able to maintain the focus on being able to uphold to the
    standard of being able to achieve the school curriculum in
    terms of you know the certain classes, excuse me, that I had to
    take.
        So with that constant pressure, me putting pressure on
    myself and even with outside pressure that was not necessarily
    intentional with three of my sisters are going to college, all
    of them obtaining their master's degrees.
        I personally had some pressure that I felt in myself with
    having to reach those goals and attain that degree. And even
    with being able to not fail, and feeling like I didn't want to
    put my family's money at risk of just being wasted because of
    where I was at.
        So that's kind of the reason as to why. Those are some of
    the thoughts I was having internally as far as being able to
    stay in school.
        Mr. Bowman. Yes I know what you mean. I have three sisters
    as well, and raised by a single mom. So I know the pressure
    that the women in our lives put on us.
        Mr. Thornton. Yes.
        Mr. Bowman. To reach their standard. So how did you
    overcome it? You know what did the university provide to you in
    terms of advisers, in terms of academic support, what have you,
    how did you overcome that pressure and that feeling that you
    didn't belong? And how were you able to set yourself right?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes of course. So when it came down to
    referring whether I did, it took me having to speak up, rather
    than waiting for something or for someone to come to me and ask
    me how I was doing. So it took me reaching out to, as I
    mentioned, you know, a TRIO program instructor, Ms. Tiffany
    Tyler, who has played a huge role in my life, reaching out to
    her, speaking to her about some of these things.
        Her guiding me and really encouraging me to continue to
    push forward, and even my counterparts, my peers within the
    university. I've built long-lasting relationship through the
    TRIO program as I've mentioned 5000 Role Models as well.
        And even you know I'm part of a club here on campus as
    well. Having those people in my life, and just speaking and
    sharing my heart, sharing my life with them. There are times
    where I was able to do homework with them, study with them, and
    it really just pushed me to stay in school to think about the
    future, the ways in which I can have an impact in the world
    with a degree.
        So you know having people in my life was a huge component
    of me deciding that this is something that I can do, and
    something that I will do, and that's kind of you know pushed me
    to where I am today getting ready to graduate. So that's been a
    huge motivator for me.
        Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're an
    inspiration to me personally, and to all of us, so please keep
    going brother. I appreciate you. Chancellor Oakley, since the
    onset of COVID-19 there has been an increased demand from
    mental health services as students deal with trauma, and
    economic and health crises, in addition to managing their
    school work.
        Chancellor, how have your institutions managed this
    increased need?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congressman. The
    mental health toll that the pandemic and the economic fallout
    has taken on our students has been significant. Many of them
    are in communities where we have had not only the economic
    impact of COVID-19, the health impacts because many of those
    communities lacked access to quality healthcare, but also the
    racial reckoning that has gripped this country, happens in the
    communities that we serve.
        So all those things have come together. We have been
    working with the Newsom administration and our legislature to
    gain access to resources that help fund mental health services.
    Our legislature has provided some of those resources. We are
    working with counties and cities to share resources, to make
    sure that our students have access to those mental health
    resources, but they are only a drop in the bucket.
        And this is an area where Congress also has been helpful
    because some of those relief funds have been used to provide
    that kind of assistance, that kind of support to our students
    who need it critically right now for them to continue their
    education.
        Mr. Bowman. Thank you for that. Mr. Zibel, though
    enrollment is trending down at community colleges, the reverse
    is true for for-profit colleges. While for-profit colleges saw
    substantial and consistent enrollment drops in the years
    leading up to the pandemic, the sections enrollment spiked up
    last fall.
        This appears to be a pattern as for-profit colleges have
    saw a similar enrollment spike after the Great Recession. Do
    you have any concerns with these trends, and what lessons can
    we learn from the years following the Great Recession?
        Chairwoman Wilson. Mr. Vice Chair your time is up.
        Mr. Bowman. Oh sorry, thank you.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Someone else--he'll probably
    answer it in another question from another Member. Thank you so
    much. We'll now go to Ms. Spartz of Indiana.
        Ms. Spartz. Thank you Madam Chair. I just have a question
    to all the panel. You know we all agree we have a lot of
    problems and challenges in higher ed. I was a college faculty
    myself, and I also taught in public accounting college. It was
    a national team, a trainer for several other accounting firms.
    We had a lot of talk, a lot of discussions, a lot of different
    performances, so I understand it.
        We need to have better return on investment, following
    investments in human capital. Colleges need to have skin in the
    game, and we need to have better outcomes, not worthless
    diplomas, none of that, inflated grades and all these things
    and now the kids are not ready to life-long learning.
        So my question is we had lots of talk, lots of discussion,
    proposal but nothing ever gets done. So my question is, and
    I'll start with Dr. Burke, is there any prospects where
    actually something gets done, or we'll be discussing for next
    10 years how we're going to reform higher ed and nothing is
    going to happen.
        So what are your thoughts on the prospect of anything
    happening in the near future.
        Ms. Burke. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
    Spartz. So I think the prospect for reforms like moving on
    either short-term Pell, or enabling students to use their Title
    IV funds for shorter term courses. I think the prospects are
    pretty good for that in terms of bipartisan support overall.
        There are, of course, some inherent concerns with some of
    these proposals that you don't increase spending overall on
    these programs when you enable those dollars to flow to shorter
    term courses, but I think that there are ways to structure
    those reforms to make sure that the cap remains tight, but
    still enable students to have more flexibility and to make
    those dollars more nimble.
        Ms. Spartz. But I'm talking about better outcomes in all
    postsecondary education, so having real reform when we
    understand that you know, we should bring some value right? If
    we're going to invest in human capital, and use taxpayers money
    particularly to do that, we need to have a return on
    investment.
        And colleges need to have skin in the game, and they
    shouldn't be piling up all this debt on these kids, a lot of
    them, with no jobs right? Because I only care if you have a
    job, and you have some meaningful employment that it brings
    some value.
        So is there any prospect of having that ever accomplished?
        Ms. Burke. So I do think that there is some agreement that
    in general the current metrics for example, the cohort default
    rate, are just really not cutting it in terms of providing the
    data that we need and the, you know, oversight that we need for
    some of these institutions.
        And so there are conversations that are happening about
    changing that metric to something maybe closer to a
    programmatic default rate that could work better. There is
    still going to be problems inherent in that approach as well,
    and so to my mind it all comes back to the fact that we are
    even having this conversation because Federal taxpayers are
    implicated, and financing so much of the higher education
    system today.
        So winding down the debt in the student loan program, I
    think is a necessary precondition for reigning in costs and
    providing some needed accountability.
        Ms. Spartz. Yes our colleges do have to have skin in the
    game too.
        Ms. Burke. Yes.
        Ms. Spartz. So I'm sure. Dr. And Mr. Zibel and Mr. Oakley,
    and maybe Mr. Thornton quickly. Do you think there is any
    prospect of meaningful reform in the near future? Yes, no,
    because I'm not sure how much time I have left.
        Mr. Zibel. I actually think there is Congresswoman, and
    especially you know if you talk about skin in the game, and
    making sure that there's value.
        I think one of the most important things that
    administration can do is bring back the Gainful Employment
    Rule, which was designed to solve exactly the kind of problems
    that you were just referring to where students are graduating
    from programs without any prospect of employment in
    relationship to the amount of debt that they are taking.
        Secretary DeVos repealed that rule. And you know I'm
    hopeful that the Department of Education can bring it back, and
    actually give it time to work going forward.
        Ms. Spartz. Mr. Oakley?
        Mr. Oakley. Short answer is yes. I see a lot of reform
    happening. The fact that you have a person from a community
    college testifying today means that things are changing, that
    we are recognizing the value that institutions like community
    colleges provide to the country. So I'm very hopeful and I see
    a lot of change in California.
        Ms. Spartz. OK. Well hopefully we'll stay optimistic and
    get some hope. Mr. Thornton what do you think? You're probably
    new to all this.
        Mr. Thornton. Yes I definitely am new to all this. But I
    would say that I do have hope and faith that there will be a
    change moving forward in the future. I'm excited to see how
    things continue to grow and to progress as Mr. Oakley attested
    to. You know, him coming from a community college background I
    think is amazing just to see him here now, and just even having
    that same dream and hope for other people that were in his
    position.
        So I definitely feel good moving forward to see some
    changes in America.
        Ms. Spartz. OK thank you. I will stay hopeful, and I'll
    yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much. And a
    veteran Member of the committee now, I yield to Mr. Pocan. How
    are you, Wisconsin.
        Mr. Pocan. Very good thank you Madam Chair, and I
    appreciate. Thanks to the witnesses, and my apologies to
    everyone for coming back and forth. Every vote we have is 45
    minutes. Unfortunately, we have about 100 colleagues who have
    not been vaccinated so we can't shorten the time period, and
    it's chaotic because of it. So my apologies up front.
        A very quick yes/no question Dr. Burke. I'm hoping, I'm not
    sure if I heard something right. Were you just talking about
    winding down the student loan programs? Is that a yes or no in
    the near future?
        Ms. Burke. Yes.
        Mr. Pocan. OK yes. Thank you. I'll move on. So Mr.
    Thornton. I was someone who when I went to school I grew up in
    a lower middle class family, got lots of student loans, Pell
    Grants, things that Ms. Burke apparently doesn't like.
        And that's why I was able to go to college, and get a
    degree and appreciate, you know, what you're talking about
    right now and the support that you got. I think also part of
    the testimony was that all this money went to the
    administrative ether at universities, but I assume you like me,
    don't consider our lives administrative ether.
        You talked a little bit in your opening remarks about how
    some of the support from the programs that we've done with
    COVID helped you very directly to be able to continue to be
    able to go to school. Can you talk a little more, just a little
    more about that, or about any friend's stories also that have
    been helped because of the programs that Congress did around
    COVID?
        Mr. Thornton. Yes. Thank you so much for that Mr. Pocan.
    And I could speak for myself personally, kind of like what I
    mentioned as far as the last semester, the fall semester that
    just passed. Me initially having a job, me being able to take
    care of myself financially, whether it be with school expenses,
    or expenses outside of school whether it was rent or bills.
        Me losing my job put me in a position to where I just
    really had to take a lot from my personal savings, so with the
    funding that was provided I was able to provide for myself in
    different ways, primarily with school and you know school
    materials.
        And in addition to that things outside of school. So the
    funding that was provided definitely played a huge role in my
    life personally, and you know I could definitely speak about
    that for sure.
        Mr. Pocan. Thank you. What's your major by the way? I don't
    know if I caught that because we're always back and forth. I
    didn't catch that.
        Mr. Thornton. Oh yes of course. My major is recreation and
    sports management.
        Mr. Pocan. Awesome. Well I wish you great fortune with
    that, and thanks so much for being here and sharing your
    stories. A question for Chancellor Oakley. You know we just had
    a staff assistant position open in my office. We got 330
    applications for it, and we noticed a lot of them graduated in
    May 2020 and have not had a job since then, obviously because
    of COVID.
        Is there anything that universities are doing, or should be
    doing to kind of help that student, that this year has been an
    incredibly tough year? Many of them probably are living back
    home because we noticed the addresses are from around the
    country. But what can we do to help those students, because you
    know, I'm glad that they were able to get the education, but I
    know the next connecting step is to a good job.
        Mr. Oakley. So very quickly. I mean working with employers,
    working with industries to provide for some type of paid
    internship I think is critical for all college graduates to
    have the opportunity to get into the workforce as soon as
    things start to open up.
        It's critically important that college students have access
    to have the skills that they need, but also in terms of what
    they need to do the work, but how to exist in a place of
    employment. So I think we need to double our efforts to help
    students get some sort of workforce opportunity, internship or
    other paid workforce training.
        Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you. And then a final followup if I
    can because I have to go to vote on this series now. It has to
    do with Dr. Burke's question that we need to wind down our
    financial aid programs, that there's just too much of a largess
    out there.
        Mr. Oakley. Well I think we agree on the umbrella which is
    there is too much debt. I do think that we need to continue to
    improve the amount of resources that we're providing to the
    lowest income Americans and help them pay for the cost of
    attending college which continues to increase.
        Mr. Pocan. And that includes more Pell I would assume.
        Mr. Oakley. Absolutely.
        Mr. Pocan. Great. Thank you very much. I yield back Madam
    Chair.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, thank you. According to my
    records Ms. Harshbarger of Tennessee you can go on the record.
    Mr. Fulcher of Idaho? Ms. Stefanik of New York? Mr. Banks of
    Indiana? Ms. Omar of Minnesota.
        Ms. Omar. Thank you very much chairwoman, and thanks to all
    our witnesses for joining us. To Mr. Pocan's point it's been a
    really busy day, so I do apologize if some of the questions I
    ask have already been asked of you. Even before the COVID-19
    pandemic hit, there were many students who were struggling to
    cover the cost of basic needs like housing, food and childcare.
        The COVID-19 pandemic has added to many of the hurdles
    faced by minority and low-income students working to complete
    their college educations. And these challenges are compounded
    for student parents.
        A recent report including the GAO study, has highlighted
    the challenges that a student parents face in terms of college
    persistence and completion. Madam Chair I request unanimous
    consent to enter this into the record.
        Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
        Ms. Omar. Chancellor Oakley, how have child center closures
    affected the ability of student parents to remain in school?
        Mr. Oakley. This has had a devastating effect on our
    students, and thank you for that question Congresswoman. This
    has had a devastating effect. So many of our students in the
    California community colleges, and this is true of community
    colleges across the Nation, are working parents.
        And so lack of access to childcare, and the fact that so
    many of them have had their children in their household having
    to work on educating them remotely, sharing Wi-Fi with them,
    all of these have created challenges that have made it very
    difficult for working parents to continue their education.
        Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. I was a working parent when I
    completed my college education, and so I'm wondering if there
    is any support that colleges are providing currently to this
    vulnerable student group, and if you have any recommendations
    for Congress to provide support.
        Mr. Oakley. Well I think right now the most important thing
    to do is to provide these working parents, these students,
    direct emergency support. They need economic support right now,
    so that when they're making choices about whether to feed their
    family, or to continue to enroll in college, we don't force
    them into those choices.
        So I think we need them to participate in the economy. We
    need them to complete their education, so I think investing
    directly in supporting these working students is critical to
    our future, and to an equitable recovery.
        Ms. Omar. And how do you see the creation of an environment
    that does set these students up for success post-COVID?
        Mr. Oakley. So I think it's critical that we work with
    employers, that we work with labor organizations that support
    these working parents to focus on insuring that we provide what
    they need to get into jobs that pay a livable wage so they can
    support their families.
        Ms. Omar. I appreciate that. Madam Chair I will yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I see Mr. Fulcher
    from Idaho's camera on. I'm not sure if he is available? We'll
    go now to Ms. Sherrill of New Jersey? Mr. Espaillat of New
    York? Mr. Grijalva of Arizona? And a true, true veteran of the
    Education Committee Mr. Courtney of Connecticut, he's here.
        Mr. Courtney. Thank you Chairwoman Wilson, and thank you to
    all the witnesses. Keith, your testimony has been really
    stellar, and you know, congratulations to you and the Chairman
    for the great work that you and her work in terms of you know,
    creating these kinds of pathways for young people.
        Mr. Zibel I have actually been watching a little bit out of
    the corner of my eye during the hearing. Chairman Powell from
    the Federal Reserve is sort of giving his sort of update
    regarding the economy, and announced that again, the sort of
    low interest rate, zero percent policy--monetary policy, of the
    Federal Reserve is actually going to continue through 2023.
        I mean a very I think, you know forceful policy position to
    keep borrowing costs down. And as we know, you know, for the
    last year that's been the policy, and people in the private
    sector have benefited greatly from it. You know residential
    property owners, credit card debt, car loan debt, but you know
    the one form of debt that is still stuck with the higher
    interest rates is student loan debt.
        And you know President Biden's pause, which is a good thing
    in terms of helping people's cash-flow, who are student loan
    borrowers, that expires at the end of September 2021. And so,
    you know, potentially you know those higher interest rates are
    going to snap back into place.
        Again, even if there is student loan forgiveness of
    $10,000.00 or $50,000.00, there's still going to be a lot of
    debt left over there. And so you know I was wondering if you
    could sort of talk about it from a consumer point of view. I
    mean the only decisionmaker that can change that is Congress.
        That's pretty well understood as the President really is
    not a unilateral authority under the Higher Education
    Authorization to cut rates by himself, and we've done that a
    number of times over you know the time that Frederica and I
    have been in Congress.
        You know it just seems like it screams out for action by
    Congress not to let these interest rates snap back, and first
    to do something about taking advantage of the low interest rate
    environment. And I was wondering if you could comment on that.
        Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Congressman. It's an excellent
    question and I should caveat this was you know I'm not an
    economist. I'm a lawyer. But you know, just as a matter of
    principle I think that everything you are saying makes a lot of
    sense. There is no reason why student loan borrowers should be
    saddled with higher interest rates than you know, other
    financial products.
        I think Congress would be well to look at reforms to the
    Bankruptcy Code. Student loans are not dischargeable in
    bankruptcy for the most part, and that is something that I
    think both the administration and Congress could be taking a
    look at to really try and bring relief to borrowers who are
    struggling so immensely right now.
        Mr. Courtney. Well thank you. Again we've tried actually in
    the last few Congresses, myself, Frederica and others have you
    know cosponsored bills to bring down the interest rates. And
    again, given Chairman Powell's announcement today, I mean it
    really is more than high time for us to move out and create
    some parody in terms of lending costs for people with student
    loan debt.
        And you know Mr. Oakley, I don't know if you have any sort
    of comment on that. I realize maybe you know the interest rate
    issue for current students is not as urgent, but certainly you
    know, later in life it could really pose a real hindrance on
    their success.
        Mr. Oakley. Well absolutely. I mean all the things that
    were just mentioned, and I certainly support Mr. Zibel's
    characterization of the challenge. We need Congress to act to
    support students who do have to take out these loans by
    reducing the interest rate, by allowing them to go through
    bankruptcy court.
        So these are issues that saddle our students for decades.
    And in many ways keep them from participating meaningful in the
    American economy, and from creating wealth.
        Mr. Courtney. Great. Well thank you. You know just to share
    with the committee and the witnesses, I had a constituent who
    emailed the other day about a student loan bill that he
    received, which again was paying 7.8 percent interest. Again,
    totally trapped.
        And there was a warning quote in there that only the U.S.
    Congress can lower that rate. Because you know I'm sure that
    the loan servicer is getting bombarded with questions about why
    do I still have to pay 7.8 percent interest when you know,
    everything else is you know close to zero.
        And I think you know they're basically saying call your
    Congressman. So hopefully, you know, more people will talk
    about that, because it really is something that we as a
    committee should take a look at. And with that I yield back
    Madam Chairwoman.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much. Mr. Fulcher I see
    from Idaho, I see you back and forth. You are on camera. You're
    next. Mr. Fulcher are you going to join us? If not we'll go to
    Ms. Bonamici.
        Ms. Bonamici. Thank you Madam Chair. And thank you to all
    the witnesses. In particular, I want to thank Mr. Thornton.
    Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It's really
    helpful for us to learn from. I also want to not let it go
    unsaid that there are with regard to Dr. Burke's comments about
    limiting borrowing based on someone's course of study, multiple
    issues and problems with that, particularly from the equity
    perspective.
        And very subjective who makes that decision, and you know,
    just take a look someday at what philosophy majors make.
    They're very successful because they know how to think
    critically, and employers are looking for skills like empathy
    and teamwork, and problem solving. Those are all things that
    come from studying broad fields, including the humanities.
        So I want to turn to Chancellor Oakley. Nice to see you
    again. We know there are serious inequities in higher
    education, and that's true in Oregon and across the country
    even before the COVID-19 pandemic, and students were already
    struggling to cover not just the cost of tuition, but we know
    other expenses, housing, transportation, childcare, food.
        Now there are unexpected costs because of the pandemic
    adding to it. And particularly for community college students
    like I was, these costs are significantly higher than the costs
    of tuition. So Chancellor Oakley, recent reports including a
    GAO study have highlighted food and housing insecurity, and I
    have spoken with college students, particularly community
    college students in Oregon about this.
        I'd like to enter the GAO report into the record Madam
    Chair.
        Chairwoman Wilson. So ordered.
        Ms. Bonamici. Thank you. So Chancellor, how are the
    California community colleges providing for example, case
    management and services to low-income students, and how are you
    connecting them with resources like those that are available
    through SNAP, WIC and TANF? And how are you making sure the
    students access those resources while they're not physically on
    campus?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you for that question Congresswoman
    Bonamici. You are absolutely right. There was a huge crisis in
    our system before the pandemic. We saw record amounts of food
    insecurity. Record amounts of housing insecurity and the
    pandemic has significantly exacerbated the problem.
        So we have been working first and foremost, we are a
    community college, we are working with cities, with non-profit
    institutions, in localities where we exist in providing support
    for our students.
        We've provided support for technology, for food through
    food pantries, and things of that nature. We've also worked
    with our legislature and Governor Newsom to provide emergency
    aid. Just a few weeks ago the legislature passed an emergency
    action package that provides emergency support directly to
    students, which will support their needs for food and housing
    insecurity, as well as mental health services and other things
    that are impacting them right now.
        We've also continued to advocate to you all, to Congress,
    and to this new administration of the need to provide this
    direct emergency support. I understand----
        Ms. Bonamici. Chancellor, I don't want to interrupt but I--
    --
        Mr. Oakley. That's quite all right.
        Ms. Bonamici. ----I have a consumer protection background,
    so I absolutely must get a question in for Mr. Zibel. Thank you
    so much for being here. The Obama administration as you know,
    established the Borrower Defense Rule to streamline the process
    for students to assert their right to loan forgiveness when
    they're defrauded by the institution.
        Unfortunately, the Trump administration failed to implement
    the rule and give students the relief they deserve. So what can
    the Biden administration do immediately to address the problems
    with Borrower Defense that were created by the past
    administration?
        Mr. Zibel. Sure. Thank you for the question. There is a lot
    the department can do, and I think most immediately it's taking
    the issue seriously, providing relief, 100 percent relief to
    the borrowers who it has already determined to have been
    defrauded by a predatory college.
        There is simply no excuse at this point in time for the
    department dragging its heels on that. I want to, you know the
    consequences for these borrowers, it's devastating for them for
    an economic impact, housing impact, mental health impacts.
        But the other point that I want to emphasize on this is
    that these are borrowers who really feel like not only did
    their school fail them, but their government failed them. Their
    government failed them by putting a seal of approval on these
    schools, leading them down a path, and then not giving
    forgiveness, even though they've already made sufficient
    findings to do so.
        Ms. Bonamici. In my remaining few seconds, just to followup
    on that. Some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
    were talking about complaining about what they call
    administrative bloat. But actually some of the worst bloat I'm
    aware of is when colleges use Federal funds to advertise for
    perspective students.
        Recent data indicates that colleges spend 730 million
    dollars on advertising and degree granting for-profit
    institutions, and that's you know 40 percent of all higher
    education advertising spending for just 6 percent of the
    students, so that is something that I would say is
    administrative bloat we should be looking at is what the for-
    profits institutions are doing to try to recruit on often-times
    students.
        So I see my time is over, and I yield back. Thank you Madam
    Chair.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. You have a lot of seniority
    but your time is up. And now Mr. Scott, esteemed Chairman of
    the entire committee on Education and Labor. Do you want to
    close us out?
        Mr. Scott. I'll try. Thank you very much. Let me first ask
    Ms. Burke you mentioned we talked about short-term Pell's, but
    I think there's a consensus that this is a good idea. The only
    caveat we have is people open up little storefronts and
    stealing all the money, dealing out worthless credentials.
        We want to limit those privately to community colleges, and
    referrals from job training, workforce investment, Opportunity
    Act boards. Do you think that would be sufficient to keep these
    in the hands of those that are actually using them well?
        Ms. Burke. I think coupled with some State accreditation
    reform efforts as in enabling states to make some determination
    about which industries within their state could provide those
    short-term courses. I think that would be a good step in the
    right direction to actually push it down to the State level,
    that oversight role, in terms of quality assurance of these
    programs.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. And let me ask Dr. Oakley. We have a
    lot of suggestions on how to spend a lot of money on colleges,
    and could you give us an idea of your priorities talking about
    either free college, or free community college, double the Pell
    Grant, loan discharge programs like public service loan
    forgiveness, a borrower defense, or income contingent, or
    discharging loans $10,000.00 or $50,000.00, or eliminate
    interest on loans.
        Could you tell us what we ought to be looking at first?
        Mr. Oakley. Thank you Mr. Chair. First of all I mean all of
    those issues are important issues to our students, but for us I
    mean first and foremost allowing students to pay for the total
    cost of attending college is critical, so that they can attend
    full-time, so that they can complete their education and get
    into the workforce.
        So things like doubling Pell is critically important. Free
    community college is certainly important, so that the funds
    that you make available can be spent on the total cost of
    attending college. And then finally I'd say supporting
    colleges, community colleges in particular to reach out to
    displaced workers, and helping get the skills that they need to
    get back into the workforce.
        Mr. Scott. We've heard a couple of comments about the
    interest rates. What about significantly reducing, or even
    eliminating interest. Why is the Federal Government charging
    people interest? We ought to be subsidizing loans, not using it
    as a profit center.
        Mr. Oakley. Well I would certainly agree that a low or no
    interest loans to our students who are struggling and who need
    that support to get into the economy is a very important step
    that Congress could take.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Zibel during the Obama
    administration the Department of Education worked with the
    State law enforcement agencies, especially attorneys general to
    investigate and hold for-profit colleges accountable. Can you
    talk about what happened during the last 4 years, and whether
    or not executives at for-profit colleges should be held
    personally liable for misconduct, or financial losses to
    students and taxpayers?
        Mr. Zibel. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. Look, the Department of
    Education has to be working alongside State and other Federal
    partners. This should not be an adversarial relationship, as I
    think it has been over the past 4 years. In terms of
    institutional enforcement I see what the Department of
    Education did in the Corinthian colleges matter.
        It's a real example of when the department worked alongside
    the office of then Attorney General Kamala Harris to bring an
    enforcement action, and take an action against one of the most
    predatory actors.
        When schools are closing, the department has to be working
    with states to make sure that student needs are met in terms of
    transfers, and transcript availability and basic needs around
    housing.
        So I think that is a real important step that the
    department has to be taking going forward. In terms of personal
    liability, I think I mentioned a little bit earlier,
    absolutely. This is not a proposal that we have come up with.
    This is not a proposal that must have been developed in the
    past year or two, this is something that Congress put into the
    Higher Education Act about 30 years ago.
        And you know President George H.W. Bush signed it into law.
    It was passed by a bipartisan Congress. And I think that the
    concept is really simple. That when there are institutions that
    cause losses to students and taxpayers, they should be held
    accountable, and the individuals that directed that conduct
    should be held accountable.
        The Securities and Exchange Commission for example does it
    even for for-profit college executives about protecting
    investors. But for some reason the Department of Education has
    not done that to protect students.
        So this is about deterring misconduct. If you know that you
    personally may have to write a check at the end of the day, you
    are probably going to be a lot better of a steward of a
    taxpayer and student funds.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. And thank you Madam Chair. And I want
    to thank Keith for being with us today. He's certainly an
    example of why we're here. And certainly, a shining example of
    why the 5,000 Role Models of Excellence are so important. So
    thank you Keith for being with us today.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much Mr. Chair.
    I remind my colleagues that pursuant to committee practice,
    materials for submission of the hearing record must be
    submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days following the
    last day of the hearing.
        So by close of business on March 31, 2021 preferably in
    Microsoft Word format. The materials submitted must address the
    subject matter of the hearing. Only a Member of the
    subcommittee, or an invited witness may submit materials for
    inclusion in the hearing record.
        Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer
    than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an
    internet link that you must provide to the Committee Clerk
    within the required timeframe.
        But please recognize that in the future that link may no
    longer work. Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for
    the record must be submitted to the Clerk electronically by
    email submissions to edandlabor.hearings@mailthehouse.gov.
        Members are encouraged to submit materials to the inbox
    before the hearing, or during the hearing at the time the
    Member makes the request. Again, I want to thank the witnesses
    for their participation today. Keith you have made FIU, Miami-
    Dade County Public Schools so proud.
        We love you. 5,000 Role Models love you. We are 5,000. I
    want to thank you, all of the witnesses. You were absolutely
    stupendous. You did a great job at our committee today. Members
    of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for each
    of you and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those
    questions in writing.
        The hearing record will be held open for 14 days in order
    to receive those responses. I remind my colleagues that
    pursuant to committee practice witness questions for the
    hearing record, must be submitted to the Majority Committee
    Staff or Committee Clerk within 7 days. The questions submitted
    must address the subject matter of the hearing.
        We're now into closing statements. I recognize the
    Distinguished Ranking Member for a closing statement, Dr.
    Murphy who is a medical doctor.
        Mr. Murphy. Thank you Ms. Representative Wilson. I want to
    thank you especially, but also thank the committee Members and
    the panelists. I think this was an excellent, excellent
    meeting, and a lot of good issues discussed.
        And I think there was a lot of lessons learned today. Both
    Democrats and Republicans, I think we agree. We agree very
    plainly that our postsecondary education system is in need of
    reform. I mean I think that I can say that without any doubt.
    Everybody knows that things have got a little bit out of hand.
        Where the reform may be, may be in question, and difference
    of opinion about and amongst the panelists and the committee,
    but I think reform my all means is a consensus statement.
        College costs are obviously way too high, and continue to
    rise. We simply cannot continue the rise of college costs as
    they are today. We are bankrupting our students. We are doing a
    disservice to our taxpayers. We simply cannot allow that.
    Graduation rates are low, honestly embarrassingly low.
        I look at some institutions 6 year graduation rates are in
    the teens, and that's not acceptable. We're doing a disservice
    to those students, and again to the taxpayers. Employers are
    finding recent graduates, college graduates, ill-prepared for
    college success. And that burden rests solely on our educators.
        If these kids are paying so much and mortgaging their
    future, our educators have the burden of making sure that
    they're prepared and that their money was well-spent. You don't
    continue the status quo. You don't continue to pour money into
    programs that have been proven failures. They're not failing
    because of lack of money. They're failing because they were bad
    and poorly designed programs.
        Congress acted quickly last year in a bipartisan fashion to
    help the sector deal with the pandemic. I was very, very proud
    to be a Member of Congress at that time because we saw the
    American people, and we saw institutions in America as needing
    our help and we got together in a bipartisan manner.
        Most recently, not so bipartisan, and that's in my opinion,
    a real shame that that occurred. But now Congress has to turn
    to long-term issues. The Higher Education Act is in dire need
    of reform to better serve our students. The disaster, and I
    spoke about this earlier, of the rise of administrative bloat
    must be reversed.
        We cannot continue pouring money into institutions that do
    not use it toward education and preparing our students for
    success and lifelong learning. Some policy solutions have been
    presented at the hearing, eliminate the Grad Plus Program,
    allow institutions to limit borrowing on a programmatic basis,
    an entrance into the marketplace by enabling short-term Pell
    Grants and reforming the accreditation system, and also--and a
    recent topic, I think reforming the interest rates on these
    loans. By all means, I think that needs to be done, especially
    with what we're talking about with zero rates.
        I don't think loan forgiveness. All you're doing is passing
    that on to individuals who actually paid for their education,
    who actually worked for their education, I don't think that is
    appropriate.
        Not all of the ideas are bipartisan, by all means. But I
    want to encourage the subcommittee to work to find workable
    solutions under Madam Wilson's leadership, and I have pledged
    to work together in a bipartisan manner for us to actually do
    what's great for our students and what's good for their
    success. Thank you Madam Chairman I will yield back.
        Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you Doctor. I now
    recognize myself for the purpose of making my closing
    statement. I want to again thank our expert witnesses for
    joining our subcommittee's first hearing of this Congress, and
    for your testimonies.
        Our discussion today made clear that the relief funding we
    provided for higher education over the last year has been
    critical to helping both institutions and students weather the
    Coronavirus pandemic. But we were also reminded that both
    Congress and the Biden administration have much work to do to
    ensure underserved students are not left behind in our recovery
    from this pandemic.
        Securing relief funding alone is a disservice to the
    students. We must take bold steps to strengthen student
    protections and expand access to student aid, so that we build
    back a better higher education system for everyone.
        This committee has a great responsibility to not only help
    our higher education system survive this pandemic, but also
    ensure that all students across this Nation have access, if
    they want it, to a college degree that leads to a rewarding
    career. I look forward to working with my colleagues to achieve
    this ultimate goal.
        If there is no further business before this committee
    without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. And thank
    you so much for joining us.
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        [Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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