[Senate Hearing 116-528]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                                                        S. Hrg. 116-528
 
                         WOMEN AND RETIREMENT:
                  UNIQUE CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES
                       TO PAVE A BRIGHTER FUTURE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS


                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             WASHINGTON, DC

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 24, 2020

                               __________

                           Serial No. 116-22

         Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
         
         
         
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
        
        
        
                     ______                       


             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 46-841PDF           WASHINGTON : 2022        
        
        
                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina         KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York
MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
MARCO RUBIO, Florida                 ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                DOUG JONES, Alabama
MIKE BRAUN, Indiana                  KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona
RICK SCOTT, Florida                  JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
                              ----------                              
              Elizabeth McDonnell, Majority Staff Director
                 Kathryn Mevis, Minority Staff Director
                 
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Opening Statement of Senator Susan M. Collins, Chairman..........     1
Opening Statement of Senator Robert P. Casey, Jr., Ranking Member     3

                           PANEL OF WITNESSES

Hon. Gene L. Dodaro, Comptroller General of the United States, 
  Government Accountability Office, (Accompanied by Tranchau 
  (Kris), T. Nguyen and Tamara Cross), Washington, D.C...........     5

                                APPENDIX
                      Prepared Witness Statements

Statement of Hon. Gene L. Dodaro, Comptroller General of the 
  United States, Government Accountability Office, Washington, 
  D.C............................................................    29

                  Additional Statements for the Record

American Retirement Association Statement for the Record.........    47


                         WOMEN AND RETIREMENT:

                  UNIQUE CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES

                       TO PAVE A BRIGHTER FUTURE

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2020

                                       U.S. Senate,
                                Special Committee on Aging,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., in 
room SD-562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, and by 
videoconference, Hon. Susan M. Collins, Chairman of the 
Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Collins, Tim Scott, Hawley, Braun, Rick 
Scott, Casey, Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Sinema, and Rosen.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. Good morning. The Committee will come to 
order.
    Over the years this Committee has focused on improving 
retirement security for older Americans today and for 
generations to come. Many of the financial paths to retirement 
today are not as they were in the past, and for some Americans 
these paths appear to lead to a financially insecure future.
    Prior to COVID-19, the nonpartisan Center for Retirement 
Research at Boston College estimated that Americans face a 
cumulative $7 trillion gap between what they are projected to 
have saved for retirement and what they are likely to need. The 
COVID-19 public health emergency and economic recession are 
expected to further increase this staggering gap. For some 
women, the situation is particularly acute, and that is the 
focus of our hearing today.
    It seems appropriate that as we mourn the passing of 
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg we focus today on the unique 
challenges women face in preparing for and maintaining a secure 
retirement. In general, women are more likely than men to take 
time away from the workforce to raise children or even 
grandchildren. They are more likely to care for an ill spouse 
or parent. Time out of the workforce often results in lower 
social security benefits, smaller pensions, and less in defined 
contribution plan savings.
    Women also have a higher life expectancy than men do. A 
woman born in 2020 who reaches age 65 can expect to live 2 
years longer than a man born in that same year. Higher average 
life expectancy can also translate into higher expected 
lifetime health care costs and a greater risk of outliving 
one's savings.
    Today we will feature a report from the Government 
Accountability Office that this Committee requested on the 
challenges that women face in retirement. The report includes 
the voices of women across the country sharing their stories 
with us. These women tell us about their struggles, including 
navigating the rising costs of prescription drugs, housing, and 
other necessities, and how limited opportunities for financial 
education contributed to these challenges.
    To lower the cost of prescription drugs I have spearheaded 
bills that have been signed into law. As a result of this 
Committee's landmark bipartisan investigation into prescription 
drug price spikes, I developed legislation with then Ranking 
Member Claire McCaskill to incentivize lower-cost but equally 
effective generic medicines. That law created an expedited new 
pathway at the FDA that has resulted in 44 new generic drugs.
    We can and must do more to bring down the cost of 
prescription drugs. That is why I support the Prescription Drug 
Pricing Reduction Act of 2020, which is projected to save 
seniors and individuals with disabilities $72 billion in out-
of-pocket costs in Medicare Part D and reduce premiums by $1 
billion. This is the legislation led by Senator Grassley and 
Senator Wyden.
    As Chairman of the Housing Appropriations Subcommittee, I 
am also keenly aware of the housing needs and challenges faced 
by our Nation's seniors. Of the 31 million senior households in 
the country, nearly one-third, or 10 million households are 
paying more than 30 percent of their income on housing costs. 
That is why I have also championed to increase funding to 
provide low-income seniors with safe places to live 
independently, whether this is through HUD-assisted housing or 
through home modifications to enable low-income seniors to 
remain in their own homes.
    Just last week I wrote a letter to Treasury Secretary 
Mnuchin, urging the administration to provide rental assistance 
in the next COVID relief package. I am committed to working on 
all fronts to ensure that housing is safe and affordable for 
all seniors.
    Social security has also emerged in the report as a 
persistent concern for many women who are planning to rely on 
this financial resource for retirement. Yet, in some states, 
including my State of Maine, public employees such as teachers 
continue to have their earned social security benefits unfairly 
reduced by two social security provisions, the government 
pension offset and the windfall elimination provision. Both of 
these provisions have a disproportionate impact on women.
    I have heard from women throughout Maine, particularly 
retired schoolteachers, who are affected by these laws, such as 
a 65-year-old woman in Jay, Maine, who changed careers after 30 
years of teaching to pursue a career where she will earn social 
security coverage. However, she is not able to receive any of 
her deceased husband's social security benefits due to the 
government pension offset, and her very own social security 
will also be reduced because of the windfall elimination 
provision. That is why I have consistently sponsored the 
Bipartisan Social Security Fairness Act, which would fully 
repeal both of these unfair offsets.
    I am committed to developing solutions, from lowering the 
cost of prescription drugs and housing to strengthening social 
security. We must also address caregiving duties and financial 
education. Thanks to the RAISE Family Caregivers Act, a law 
that I authored with Senator Baldwin, a national security is in 
the works to support family caregivers and improve their 
financial security. In the 2020 Older Americans Act 
reauthorization that I led with our Ranking Member, Senator 
Casey, we worked to ensure the continuation of the National 
Resource Center for Retirement and Women, which is a hub for 
financial education.
    Today I look forward to hearing about the GAO report in 
more detail to determine and guide our work on what we can do 
to improve the retirement security for all women. Thank you.
    I am now pleased to turn to our Ranking Member, Senator Bob 
Casey, who is joining us remotely this morning. Senator Casey.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
              ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., RANKING MEMBER

    Senator Casey. Chairman Collins, thank you very much for 
having this hearing on the topic of women's retirement 
security. I also want to thank Gene Dodaro and the Government 
Accountability Office for producing a report that is informing 
our conversation today.
    As I always mention when the Comptroller General is here, 
he is a Pennsylvania native from Monongahela, which is in 
Washington County, which is in the southwestern corner of our 
State, just south of Pittsburgh, we are always grateful that a 
Pennsylvanian has done so well in the work he has done for the 
GAO.
    We know, as Chairman Collins just highlighted, we know that 
last Friday, when we lost a pioneer for gender equality in 
Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, we were also 
reminded that she challenged all of us to advance the causes of 
justice and equality. She also reminded us, and would remind 
us, that these advances will not simply happen on their own. 
They must be fought for.
    I believe our discussion today about gender inequality in 
retirement is another critical facet of this work. Achieving 
financial security in retirement is a goal that every American, 
women or men, should be able to achieve. The unfortunate truth 
is that while our retirement system works for some it continues 
to allow millions of Americans to fall through the cracks. This 
is especially true when it comes to women, who continue to have 
lower average retirement incomes and are more likely--more 
likely to fall into poverty in old age.
    As the GAO report that we are focused on today makes clear, 
we know that there are many factors that are responsible for 
these disparities: 1) we know that differences in life 
expectancy means women have to put away more money to save for 
additional years of retirement and medical expenses; 2) we know 
that the pay gap means that women earn less over their careers 
than men do, on average, undermining their ability to save; 3) 
we know that family caregiving responsibilities 
disproportionately fall on women, and they spend more unpaid 
time out of the workforce; and 4) we know that these factors 
and others result in women receiving lower average social 
security benefits and relying on less income in old age.
    We have documented all of these problems. What we need to 
do now is to take action and address them. To ensure that all 
women are able to enjoy retirement on their own terms and be 
financially secure, we must do at least the following: 1) 
strengthen social security and increase benefits for those most 
likely to fall into poverty; 2) take action to secure multi-
employer pensions and to protect the benefits millions of 
workers are relying on; 3) close the pay gap and ensure that 
women are paid equally for equal work so they can save for 
retirement; and 4) create permanent paid sick and paid family 
and medical leave so workers do not have to take as much unpaid 
time out of the workforce to care for loved ones.
    Legislation that would address all of these needs has 
already been introduced, and we should pass that legislation, 
or several pieces of legislation, without further delay. It is 
more important now than ever that we take action, because as we 
speak, millions of families are continuing to struggle through 
the pandemic and the economic and jobs crisis that was created 
by the COVID-19 pandemic. This crisis is not only harming 
families' finances now but also threatens their ability to 
achieve financial security in retirement.
    The Senate had all summer to act and we did not, but has 
still not passed additional legislation to get the families the 
support they need and mitigate the long-term economic damage. 
We should pass a relief bill now, while we are here in 
Washington, and pass legislation that addresses these long-
lasting inequities that have prevented women from being able to 
maintain their quality of life in retirement. We must make sure 
that all Americans--all Americans--are able to achieve the 
financial security that they have earned.
    Chairman Collins, thank you again for the hearing. We look 
forward to our witness's testimony.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator Casey. Let me 
explain that we have Senators here in person and we also have 
Senators who are joining us remotely. I am going to go in order 
of seniority, and we will proceed, but first I am going to turn 
to our witness. I am very pleased to welcome the Comptroller 
General of the United States, Gene Dodaro, to testify today. 
His career at the GAO has spanned more than 45 years, and he 
will mark his 10th year as Comptroller General in December. I 
am pleased to say that I chaired the Homeland Security and 
Governmental Affairs Committee when we considered his 
nomination.
    He has played a key role in guiding the agency's efforts to 
bring to light emerging issues that deserve our attention and 
action. Today the Comptroller General will discuss the findings 
from a recent GAO report exploring older women's perspectives 
on their financial security.
    Comptroller General, we welcome you here today and look 
forward to hearing your testimony. I am particularly pleased to 
note that you did focus groups of women to guide your work, and 
I understand that we will hear from some of them today. Thank 
you. Please proceed.

         STATEMENT OF HON. GENE L. DODARO, COMPTROLLER

 GENERAL THE UNITED STATES, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, 
                        WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Chairman Collins. I 
appreciate greatly the opportunity to be here. Senator Casey, 
Senator Blumenthal, I very much appreciate your presence and 
your comments.
    I have long been concerned about retirement security for 
older Americans and have issued special reports and 
publications and testified before this Committee before. All 
our research predated the COVID-19 pandemic, and that 
certainly, as you point out, Senator Collins, has complicated 
this situation and the landscape considerably, both from a 
health care perspective of either directly or potentially 
indirectly affecting the health of our senior citizens as well 
as economically.
    We noted that during the last Great Recession we had that 
when seniors in the workforce lost their jobs it took them much 
longer to come back into the workforce than other people. This 
can have a dramatic effect on their retirement savings, cause 
them to potentially pull some of their retirement savings out 
to help them meet necessary expenses, so it is very important.
    Now women in particular, as has been pointed out this 
morning, have unique challenges. They have longer lifespans, as 
you pointed out, lower lifetime earnings, and they are more 
likely to be primary caregivers. Our analysis of the Survey of 
Consumer Finances showed, in terms of the confidence, that 
households where older women were present had a mixed view. 
Only 42 percent had high confidence in their retirement 
security, 33 percent medium, and 25 percent low confidence in 
their retirement security, moving forward.
    Now while that is an overall statistic it varied greatly by 
race, by retirement plan that they were in participation, by 
home ownership, by marital status, by education, and whether 
they were in a rural area or in an urban area.
    To learn more about this we had the focus groups that you 
mentioned, Senator Collins. We had 14 focus groups in 9 
different areas across the United States, 190 women in total, 
and they were very rich discussions. What came out of that 
discussion was, you know, some of the things that were 
supported by our analysis, in that women who had higher 
liquidity--in other words, more checking and savings and 
investments, stocks and bonds--had a much higher degree of 
security, retirement security, than those that did not, and 
that the amount of wealth that people had was a higher 
predictor of their confidence level in retirement, more so than 
race, marital status, and all these other factors.
    We also found, in all the focus groups, the most talked-
about issue was social security and Medicare. Women were 
concerned that they were going to lose their benefits in this 
area. They were confused about some of the implications of and 
the provisions in these programs, for example, when to apply 
for social security and the age at which you apply matters and 
affects your annuity forever, and also early application of 
Medicare, for example, and what that might foretell if you did 
not sign up within the timeframes for Part D and the 
prescription drug coverage, and that if you joined later there 
was a higher cost associated with it.
    Social Security and Medicare dominated the discussions and 
are really key factors. In fact, the future benefits, expected 
benefits, for social security are going to be the highest asset 
for 40 percent of the women 70 years or older. It is essential 
and it becomes more important as they age, because they spend 
all their other investment money and others earlier so they are 
left in their later stages of life, in the 80's in particular, 
with social security being the predominant amount.
    We heard a lot about the fact that these women would have 
wanted more financial education earlier in their lifespans, and 
that they would have done many things differently and had 
advice for other women to make sure they save, they invest, 
they manage their debt properly and they understand these 
programs and get more education.
    Health care was another dominant topic, particularly 
prescription drugs and the fact that of the 161 women who 
answered our question about their confidence in health care, 
Medicare, only 28 percent were confident that Medicare covers 
their costs right now. They were concerned about not having 
adequate coverage in that area, and then also housing, as you 
pointed out, Chairman Collins, is a big issue. A lot of people 
own homes, the women that we talked with, but they were 
concerned not just with the mortgage but property taxes, 
maintenance costs, and other factors that they felt that were 
straining their ability to do it, so because of all these 
factors, a lot of these women felt very insecure about the 
future and uncertain about it. I am sure that that has been 
exacerbated by the pandemic that we are experiencing right now 
as well.
    We have a short video where you can hear directly from some 
of these women about their experiences, and then I would be 
happy to answer questions.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    [Video plays.] [Video may be viewed on the Senate Aging 
website.]
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for that video. I really 
appreciated the fact that you made such an attempt to go out 
across the country and get information from women first-hand. 
There were several important themes that came out in the 
presentations that we just had. We had thought of having a 
panel of women, and this gave us the panel that we needed in 
this COVID environment, so thank you for that as well.
    Just as a reminder, I will be recognizing members to ask 
questions in order of seniority, and we will alternate between 
the majority and the minority. If a Senator is not present or 
logged in to WebEx when it is his or her turn to ask questions 
they will be placed at the end of the queue, and Senators will 
be given 5 minutes each on this first round.
    After I do my questions we will go to Bob Casey and then 
Tim Scott, who is logged in online is going to be the next 
person, and then Richard Blumenthal. I just want to give 
members some idea here of how we will be proceeding.
    I was very interested to hear several of the women talk 
about the need for more financial education. One of them said 
that if she had better understood the matching part for 401(k) 
plans that she would have contributed more money. How often did 
you find the lack of financial education to be an issue as you 
talked to these 190 women?
    Mr. Dodaro. [Inaudible, off microphone].
    The Chairman. [Ms. Nguyen introducing herself] [microphone 
was off] Thank you, and if you would introduce yourself again 
and make sure that your mic is on. Thank you.
    Ms. Nguyen. Good morning, Chairwoman Collins. In response 
to your question we found that in all 14 focus groups, women in 
the 14 focus groups--we found that women in all 14 focus groups 
raised concern about financial--lack of financial education. 
Specifically, they raised concerns that knowing to ask the 
right questions can be very difficult, as well as finding the 
right trustworthy financial advisor was also a challenge.
    The other issue that is associated with financial literacy, 
that they raised, is also cognitive decline, challenges such as 
Alzheimer or Dementia, and these conditions can make it 
difficult for older workers, older Americans, to be more 
vulnerable to financial exploitation.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I will share a very poor financial 
decision that I made early on, and that is after working on 
Capitol Hill for more than 10 years, so I clearly would have 
been vested, I took all of my money out of the account in order 
to buy a car. I would have been so much better off just taking 
a car loan rather than withdrawing all that money, which would 
have applied toward my retirement security. I keep thinking 
that if just one person had said to me, ``You know, that is not 
a smart decision, and it is one that will affect the amount of 
your ultimate pension,'' I would have made a different choice.
    We are now encouraging automatic enrollment in 401(k) 
plans. Mr. Comptroller General, do you think that that will 
help women, and men for that matter, be more secure than if 
they are just presented with a package of information about the 
401(k) plan that their employer offers?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I do. I believe auto-enrollment is a very 
important component of getting people started into the process, 
and our research supports that and I highly recommend it.
    The Chairman. Another issue that you referred to briefly in 
your opening statement had to do with the age at which a senior 
decides to claim social security benefits. We held a hearing on 
this, and it makes a huge difference in your amount of benefit 
if you are able to wait until a later time, age 70, to claim 
the benefit. Could you elaborate on that? Obviously, some 
people that is not a practical option for, but if you are able 
to wait to claim your benefit at age 70, what kind of impact 
does it have on your benefit level?
    Mr. Dodaro. One of my colleagues has the number. I do not 
know off the top of my head but it is a big difference between 
taking it, you know, at 65 or even earlier, and to waiting to 
70. I mean, it is a significant increase. I will provide that 
for the record.
    The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Thank you, Chairman Collins. I wanted to 
start with a question about unpaid time out of the workforce, 
and I would start by noting that we know that the pandemic has 
made it more clear than ever, probably, that workers need to 
have paid sick leave as well as paid family and medical leave. 
They should not have to choose between caring and paying, 
caring for themselves or loved ones and paying their bills, and 
so many are forced into that terrible choice.
    The burden of caregiving, as I mentioned earlier, falls 
disproportionately on women, and that reality, I think, is 
probably more apparent in the midst of this pandemic than 
otherwise. We know that Congress acted, to a certain extent, in 
this area when Congress, earlier this year passed legislation 
that included emergency COVID-19 paid leave. Too many workers 
were not able to take advantage of it and it will expire at the 
end of the year.
    I have joined my colleagues, including colleagues like 
Senator Gillibrand, in pushing to expand that emergency leave 
and create permanent paid leave by passing legislation like the 
bill entitled Providing Americans Insured Days of Paid Leave 
Act, by the acronym PAID Leave Act.
    I would ask Comptroller Dodaro, in light of this if you 
could provide more detail on how unpaid time out of the 
workforce can reduce women's income and retirement and why this 
issue is so relevant to women in particular.
    Mr. Dodaro. It is a very important issue, especially to 
women, who are more likely to be a caregiver. You know, of the 
190 people we spoke to, 38 of them had been caregivers for a 
median time of about 10 years. When you are out of the 
workforce you are then, you know, not only affecting your wages 
that then provide the basis for your social security benefits 
but you are also not able to contribute to a retirement plan, 
you are not able to, you know, basically, you know, continue to 
have your benefits while you are in the workforce for health 
care and other matters, it has a tremendous effect, plus what 
we found for caregivers was that they also had out-of-pocket 
costs that they had to put out in order to help provide that 
care. It has a tremendous effect, and since women are more 
likely to be caregivers than men, any time out of the workforce 
is a problem for them in saving for retirement.
    Senator Casey. Thank you. I wanted to move to a second 
question on social security and the importance of it. We know 
that it is the bedrock of our retirement system, and as I said 
earlier, we should strengthen social security benefits. I have 
got a bill that goes by yet another acronym, the SWIFT Act, and 
this bill, in particular, would enable widows and widows with 
disabilities to receive higher social security benefits. The 
bill would also ensure that recently widowed individuals 
receive better information on the benefits available to them 
and how their claiming decisions, which can be very perilous, 
these claiming decisions can permanently affect their 
retirement income, as we have talked about.
    I would ask Comptroller Dodaro, what does research say 
about the importance of social security benefits to widows, and 
did you find, in the interviews that GAO conducted, that these 
women who were interviewed had concerns about how best to claim 
social security benefits?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Social security is essential for women, 
particularly those that are widowed, especially in the later 
part of their lifespan. Now we looked at, you know, women when 
they were 65, and basically I think about 58 percent were 
unmarried at that time. By the time they were in their 80's 
that jumped to over 70 percent of them were unmarried at that 
time.
    The research also shows that currently, for women 70 or 
older in households, that the amount of social security future 
benefits, the present value of those future benefits accounts 
for the most significant part of wealth for over 40 percent of 
households with women 70 or older, so it is essential.
    Also what we found through the research is that women will 
spend down their savings and their investments first, their 
homes second, and then they will be left, later in life, with 
their social security benefits as the primary source. The 
longer they live the more important social security is. For 
many women it is important right now, or as soon as they 
retire, but the longer they live the more important it becomes.
    Senator Casey. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Collins.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Casey. Senator Scott had 
to leave for another meeting so we will next turn to Senator 
Braun. Thank you for being with us today.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Madam Chair. I always like it 
when you are here to testify because you have got the best 
command of facts and figures I think of anybody I have met in 
the U.S. Government. We have so many places where we need to 
call upon that. I remember when we were discussing the number 
of improper payments, and I will never forget that statistic 
that it was close to, I think, 3 percent of all checks that we 
write here either are to the wrong payee or for the wrong 
amount. I kind of knew that before I got here. I have been here 
nearly 2 years now, and that is the kind of stuff I think the 
American public needs to hear more of.
    When it comes to planning for retirement, I think I have 
got a strong kind of feeling on the fact that the institution, 
social security in general, which drives so much of our 
structural budget deficit, because no longer is that trust fund 
being built. In fact, we are depleting it. I think, you know, 
here, in a little over a decade, what we are going to do to it 
what we have done to the Medicare trust fund. Medicare trust 
fund is now due to be completely exhausted in a little over 5 
years. I think that is another thing that the American public 
needs to realize, because so many people count on both of them, 
and they just assume that they will be there.
    When it comes to the topic here, I think that the only way 
that you hedge your bets when it comes to anyone's retirement 
is that you have got to increasingly look to maybe not rely on 
something that looks to me like we will get up to the cliff. We 
will come to a crisis before we do anything about it.
    I think, in general, as it relates to women's retirement, 
anyone, because we are all in this together, in terms of how it 
might impact us, what do you think is the first issue that is 
going to come to the forefront? Do you think it will be the 
Medicare trust fund becoming the issue or the Social Security 
trust fund? Then what, in your opinion, are our options once we 
are there at the crisis and looking over the cliff?
    Mr. Dodaro. The first issue that will face the Congress 
will be the multiemployer pension system. That is expected to 
be insolvent by 2026. Now what that will happen--and I will get 
to Medicare and Social Security in just a second, but I do not 
want to miss the multiemployer portion--what that means is 
because the multiemployer plans do not take the assets over, 
that they would only be able to pay someone an annuity if their 
company goes bankrupt, and during this economic turmoil right 
now they will only be able to pay people $2,000 a year, on 
average, which is hardly adequate for a month pension, let 
alone a yearly pension, so the multiemployer part of the 
Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation is urgent.
    That is closely followed by the Medicare Hospital Trust 
Fund. Before the pandemic it was estimated by the trustees that 
by 2026, as you mentioned, Senator Braun, right around the 
corner, that that fund would only have 89 cents on the dollar 
to pay, so they would not be able to fully pay benefits. CBO 
more recently made estimates that because of the economic 
downturn, payroll taxes are not going into those funds, either 
Medicare or social security, at the same rate they were 
anticipated, so that date will be advanced. How much? CBO is 
estimating now around 2024, so that would move up at least 2 
years.
    Those dates are going to move up faster because of our 
economic downturn. The longer we are in the downturn and the 
lower economic growth, the lower the payroll taxes will be to 
these funds, so they will come closer, not go further away.
    Social Security, before the pandemic, was estimated by 2034 
they would only have enough funds to pay for 77 percent of 
benefits, so that would be like a 23 percent cut. You have 
heard me talk about how important that is for women in 
particular, but for a lot of retirees. I know, you know, 
Congress will not let these things happen because of the 
catastrophic effect it would have on elderly people, but it is 
going to require either increased revenues or changes in 
benefits.
    The sooner we do these things, the better. It will allow 
people to adjust over time, because people under the situation 
now for retirement have more of a burden themselves to be able 
to save money. They assume certain things are going to be there 
but there are big decisions awaiting the Congress to deal with 
these fundamental pillars of retirement security in America.
    Senator Braun. Thank you. It is also interesting to me that 
this has not snuck up on us. Actuarially, we have known this 
for a long time, way before COVID came along and has 
accentuated it. Maybe Senator Collins and I can galvanize the 
political will we need around this place to do something about 
it. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator. You always add 
a lot to our hearings.
    Comptroller General, I want to switch topics to another 
issue that this Committee has devoted a great deal of attention 
to that can hurt the retirement security of women as well as 
men, and that is senior scams and fraud.
    Over the past 7 years this Committee has held 25 different 
hearings examining scams that are targeting our Nation's 
seniors, and these scams not only exact an emotional toll on 
the victims and their families but they also threaten their 
retirement security.
    We have heard from seniors in Maine and across the country 
who have lost their hard-earned savings to a scam. We have a 
toll-free fraud hotline that people can call and we will try to 
assist them. We issue a fraud book every year to try to alert 
seniors to the most frequent kinds of frauds and scams.
    What we have found is these con artists, these outright 
criminals are infinitely creative in the kinds of scams that 
they come up with. An example is Philip Hatch from Portland, 
Maine, who testified before this Committee about losing $8,000 
of his retirement savings to a scammer who was impersonating an 
IRS agent. The most frequent scam that we are hearing about now 
involves social security, and that has been the No. 1 scam that 
we are seeing right now, where a senior will be tricked into 
giving out his or her social security number, and, of course, 
that is often the keys to the kingdom.
    Comptroller General, does GAO have any recommendations for 
additional steps that the Federal Government can take to 
prevent seniors from losing their hard-earned retirement 
savings to these ruthless criminals?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. There is some legislation that is working 
its way through the Congress that I think would be very 
helpful, the Stopping Senior Scams Act. I think it was co-
sponsored by Senator Casey. It has passed the Senate 
unanimously. Hopefully there is a bill being introduced in the 
House, a companion bill. I think that legislation would be very 
helpful. It would set up an advisory committee made up of the 
key Federal entities that are involved in this effort. It would 
ensure better coordination across the Federal Government, which 
I think is essential.
    We find that typically that is one of--the most pressing 
problems now across government and the most complex involve 
multiple agencies to work together to deal with this, and we 
are--the government is not all that great all the time at 
having that kind of cooperation and coordination. This would 
help in that area.
    There is also a piece of legislation that has been 
introduced about preventing emergency scams involving seniors 
during the pandemic, which I think would be good.
    What I have seen over my career, which is quite lengthy, as 
you mentioned, is that when there is a natural disaster, when 
there is an emergency, that during the pandemic people have 
high anxiety. They are concerned. They are very vulnerable. 
This is when these people ramp up their activities to try to 
take advantage of this.
    You know, before I took my job as Comptroller General, I 
had a much higher opinion of human nature than I do now. They 
seem to be ever-creative, ever, you know, evolving their sceems 
to prey, and the elderly are among the most vulnerable people 
in this area.
    We have also had some recommendations to the Justice 
Department. They have a number of activities underway to 
improve their efforts, to set better goals that could be 
measured, to assess how well they are doing in helping states, 
where they provide grants to areas as well. I think that those 
type of things are essential. We are also doing work, at your 
request now, looking at HHS and their collection, whether they 
are collecting enough information about what is going on to be 
able to better target the Federal Government's efforts, and the 
full extent of elder exploitation, financial exploitation.
    I do not want to take--miss this opportunity to also 
commend the Committee for your efforts in this area. I think 
the hotline, the fraud book that you put out is essential and 
very, very thoughtfully approached and helpful.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I want to followup by highlighting 
two new scams that are directly related to the COVID-19 
pandemic, because as you have just pointed out, these criminals 
will take advantage of any tragedy, any new development, any 
chaos that occurs, any problems that are facing our country.
    One being, is seniors are being called and told that they 
have to pay up front for a COVID test, when, in fact, those 
tests the cost of which we have appropriated billions of 
dollars, are in the vast majority of cases completely free. 
Second, they have been told that they have to pay now for a 
vaccine that is not even on the market yet, but in order to 
ensure that they will get the vaccine. Third, there are 
criminals who are exploiting the sympathies that seniors have 
for families that are struck by COVID-19 and are economically 
struggling, and trying to get them to contribute to a fund that 
will help a family, when, in fact, it is never going to that 
family. It is just lining the pockets of these criminals.
    I am very glad you mentioned the Justice Department 
efforts. I will take credit for causing them to name an elder 
abuse attorney in every U.S. Attorney's Office in the United 
States. When my former colleague, Jeff Sessions, was named 
Attorney General this was an issue that I talked to him about 
and urged him to pursue, and he did indeed do just that. Now we 
have a focal point in the U.S. Attorney's Office so that no 
longer are what, in the eyes of law enforcement, maybe viewed 
as small-dollar frauds but are devastating to the senior who is 
ripped off, ignored. They now are being pursued in U.S. 
Attorney's Offices all across the country, and I think that is 
big progress.
    I am going to ask one more question before yielding to--
well, I see that we have been joined by Senator Rosen, so let 
me yield to her. Senator Rosen.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you, Madam Chair, and of course the 
Ranking Member as well for bringing this important hearing here 
today. I would just like to thank you for the report and 
everything that you have been doing.
    I would like to focus a little bit on women in STEM. Prior 
GAO reports found that women are overrepresented in low-wage 
professions. They make less money than their male counterparts 
throughout their careers. They are more likely to leave the 
workforce to care for family members. Taken together these 
trends really have significant effects on women's financial 
security and retirement. According to the U.S. Department of 
Commerce, Economics, and Statistics Administration, workers in 
STEM fields--of course, science, technology, engineering, and 
math--earn more than their non-STEM counterparts, and the 
gender pay gap actually shrinks for women in these careers.
    Unfortunately, as a former computer programmer, I can 
attest that despite making up half the U.S. workforce, women 
still only hold a quarter of these jobs. That is one of the 
reasons why I introduced a bipartisan bill called the STEM 
RESTART Act, which would provide funding for small and medium-
sized businesses to help women and others who left the 
workforce or to transition to the STEM workforce. This is also 
great not just for women, for people of color, those 
individuals in rural communities to restart their career for 
more lucrative fields.
    How else do you think we could diversify the economy to 
include more women to STEM careers, and that have a positive 
effect going forward on women's ability to save for retirement?
    Mr. Dodaro. I think one of the things that could be done is 
to better focus on the effectiveness of the Federal 
Government's efforts to expand STEM education and training and 
job opportunities. We have identified well over 100 Federal 
programs and activities, and the last time we reviewed this 
two-thirds of them had never been reviewed to determine whether 
they are effective or not.
    I think the Federal Government is making a lot of 
investments in this area but we are not sure we are getting a 
proper return on our investment, and that some of these 
programs are even too small to measure. We could have a better 
strategy.
    I think having a better strategy, having a better targeting 
of the Federal Government's activities, but also having 
important measurement of whether they are successfully 
achieving their objectives or not is essential to make sure 
they are producing the right outcomes. As you mentioned, 
Senator Rosen, I mean, the outcome is we want more women to be 
in the STEM fields. We are spending a lot of money and have a 
lot of programs in order to achieve that objective in various 
aspects of the economy, but we do not know whether that 
investment is paying dividends that we would like it to have.
    More evaluation of these programs and activities. Then you 
can better target, you can have better strategies that will 
produce better outcomes, so that would be my main message here 
in this particular area. It is not for lack of trying, that the 
fedeal governement has but I'm not sure it is as effective.
    Senator Rosen. I think we need to size our programs a 
little better--but we will try to do that in the future
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Senator Rosen [continuing]. Moving on I also want to talk 
about the cost of caregiving, because I did leave my career at 
one point to take care of my parents and my in-laws, as they 
got older and sicker. I took them to doctor appointments, 
coordinated care, all those things that caregivers do. My 
mother-in-law had Alzheimer's toward the end of her life, spent 
time in the memory care unit, and every day I hear similar 
stories, not just from Nevadans but people across the country. 
People saved for their retirement but then they have to--when 
they were working they had to leave work in order to care for 
family members, and that was nearly devastating to them. They 
dipped into their retirement funds.
    We know that women oftentimes are those caregivers for 
their immediate family and oftentimes their extended families. 
Do you have an opinion about what we should do to reflect the 
value of caregiving perhaps in social security or retirement 
savings plans that might help those of us who were caregivers 
who stepped away from our jobs and are not paying in to social 
security during that particular time?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. I think, you know, one suggestion 
with that is that there be allowed to be better catch-up 
opportunities for when caregivers come back into the workforce, 
enhancing their abilities to be able to make greater 
contributions to tax-deferred accounts. This occurs in the 
Federal Government, Thrift Savings Plan for people over 55, you 
can contribute, you know, more money. I think that would be 
helpful.
    As it relates to social security, you could increase the 
minimum social security benefit which would help over time. You 
could also give social security credits for caregiving during 
the period of time. There is also some opportunities for out-
of-pocket costs that caregivers have, to give some tax credits 
and some tax relief in those areas as well.
    Those are among the suggestions that we have in that area, 
but it is definitely something that could be rectified by 
taking some of these actions that I suggest.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time 
and your suggestions. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Rosen. Senator Hawley, 
welcome?
    Senator Hawley. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank 
you for hosting this important hearing today, for scheduling 
it, and thanks also to the Ranking Member.
    It is undeniably true that older Americans, and older women 
in particular, were facing significant retirement challenges 
prior to COVID-19, and those trends have only been made worse 
by the pandemic.
    I have to say, as someone who comes from a State that is 
largely rural, or at least has many large rural areas, rural 
areas have been particularly hard-hit by the ongoing financial 
insecurity driven by lack of jobs, rising health care costs, of 
course the pandemic, and you have alluded to this, Mr. Dodaro, 
in your written testimony, so I look forward to asking you 
about some of that today.
    You put all those things together and you really do the 
significant uncertainty, and it is no wonder that Americans, 
many older Americans, are worried about the future, which makes 
this hearing all the more important, so thank you again, Madam 
Chair, for hosting it, for holding it.
    Mr. Dodaro, let me just ask you about some of the 
challenges facing rural communities in particular. You 
mentioned in your written testimony the significant disparities 
in asset ownership for rural female households versus urban 
female households, and you also mentioned--I thought this was 
interesting--in the focus groups that you did and the data that 
you collected in the report that rural women tended to bring up 
the cost of health care more often than their non-rural or 
urban counterparts.
    Let me just give you a chance to comment on some of that. 
Can you just tell us a little bit more about some of those 
findings and these disparities between the concerns of urban 
female households and rural female households?
    Mr. Dodaro. Very good, Senator. I will address the 
financial equity issue and then I will ask one of my colleagues 
to talk about that, that participated in some of the focus 
groups, to talk about the health care objectives.
    First, as it relates to financial disparities, what we 
found through our analysis is that in rural households women 70 
or older households, their asset base only had about 14 percent 
financial assets, and these are liquid assets. Liquidity was a 
big factor driving retirement confidence. In urban households, 
it was 36 percent, so it is a big difference, well over twice 
as high in those areas.
    This is Tamara Cross, who is in charge of this work and 
research and led the efforts on the focus groups, Senator.
    Ms. Cross. The research showed that, as the Comptroller 
General said, that there were significant differences between 
rural and urban, in that in rural households women 70 or older 
had relatively low liquidity, which is very important because 
if you have low liquidity you can end up being cash poor. We 
also found that incomes were lower in rural areas compared to 
urban.
    For example, in rural areas the median household income was 
about $38,000. In the urban areas it was $55,000. Wealth was 
also lower. The median household wealth was $87,000 in rural 
areas. In urban areas it was $99,000. The median household 
wealth increased in rural areas by about 25 percent, and 
surprisingly it only increased 13 percent in the urban areas. 
That was one area where the rural areas were doing better than 
the urban areas.
    The median household wealth increased only 3 percent in 
rural areas and 27 percent in urban areas. Then their incomes, 
the median household income increased about 2 percent in rural 
areas and about 10 percent in urban areas. You can see that the 
rural areas, you know, are greatly affected by the differences 
between rural and urban households.
    Senator Hawley. Yes, that is very striking. Thank you for 
that. I mean, just to recap, lower incomes in rural areas, 
lower wealth in rural areas, leading to lower liquidity and 
less cash in rural areas. Pretty significant disparities here 
that you are talking--14 percent, you said, of female 
households in rural areas have liquid assets compared to 36 
percent in urban areas. That is very significant. That is 
double.
    Mr. Dodaro. I think the health care issue that you 
mentioned is driven by a number of factors. We have done a lot 
of work at GAO, too, about the closures of hospitals in rural 
areas, and I think that that may be a factor. Now people did 
not say that specifically but I am putting two and two 
together, and I think that is an issue. Then a lot of women in 
the rural areas are also uncertain about their family structure 
kind of issues and changes that might occur there if they were 
left in, you know, an unmarried status, for example, or if they 
had to take care of a child or whatever. That came up more in 
the focus groups, from what I understand, as well.
    Senator Hawley. Very good. Well, I see that my time has 
expired but thank you for your testimony today. Ms. Cross, 
thank you for being here. Thank you for your work. I will give 
you some more questions for the record. I would like to learn 
more about what you have found here. I think these are very, 
very important findings, so thank you for your work. Thank you, 
Madam Chair.
    Mr. Dodaro. I would be happy to respond, Senator.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Madam Chair, thanks. I wanted to raise 
another issue which we have all referred to in one way or 
another and that is a basic issue that jumps out at us every 
day, but it does not receive enough attention, frankly--pay 
inequality.
    We know that that gap in pay undermines the ability of 
women to save for retirement. We also know--and I do not think 
any of us have mentioned this number yet--but women working 
full-time, year-round, receive only 82 percent of what men 
make. The gap between what women of color receive and what 
white men receive is, of course, even larger.
    One of the proposals to close the gap is a piece of 
legislation that is Senate Bill 270, the Paycheck Fairness Act, 
to ensure that women receive equal pay for equal work. That is 
one step we can all take to promote basic fairness and to 
reduce that gap.
    I was noting in your written testimony and in the report 
itself, Mr. Comptroller General, you include an example of how 
differences in men's and women's earnings can result in women 
being paid less to save for retirement. If you could speak 
further about the gap between the earnings and how that gap can 
compound over a full career and thereby undermine a woman's 
ability to prepare for retirement, or to save for retirement.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I would be happy to. Based on our analysis 
of the current population survey information, the average pay 
for women in 2019 was $45,000 a year. Men was $55,000 a year. 
You have a fundamental difference. A large part of this is 
reflected in the fact that women are more represented in lower-
paying occupations than men, but then there is the issue of 
equity, the equal pay for equal work issue that you brought up, 
which is also a factor.
    Now what we did was we simulated, over a career, if you 
took man and woman who were both working full-time over a 44-
year career, assuming each put in 6 percent of their earnings 
into a savings retirement plan and earned 5 percent interest on 
that over the life of their careers, that at the end of the day 
the man would have $476,000 and the woman would have $395,000, 
so it affects long-term over that period of time.
    For people that were not working full-time, if you just 
looked at men and women over their careers, we did the same 
simulation, and that would show that the man would earn 
$343,000 and the woman $216,000. It has tremendous effects, 
just like compound interest has effect over time. If women do 
not have enough to put in, they do not have the benefit of 
compound interest to help them accumulate lifetime savings, so 
it makes a big difference, not only in the current situation, 
contemporary, but also longer term as it affects accumulating 
retirement savings.
    Senator Casey. In that first example, give me the numbers 
again.
    Mr. Dodaro. In the first example, if you had a man and a 
woman that had a 44-year career----
    Senator Casey. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. they each put in 6 percent of 
their wages in a retirement plan and earned 5 percent, the man, 
at the end of that time, would have $476,000, and the woman 
would have $395,000.
    Senator Casey. Yep.
    Mr. Dodaro. There is a big gap in there, and that all 
starts--emanates from the pay disparity issue. It has 
compounding effect over time.
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Casey, and thank you, 
Comptroller General. I just want to touch briefly on two more 
issues. We have talked a lot this morning about the fact that 
women are much more likely to take time out from their careers 
to either raise children, take care of an elderly parent or a 
sick spouse, and Senator Rosen mentioned her own experience in 
that regard.
    There is another group of people who often lose out on 
retirement benefits and that is military spouses, because they 
move so frequently they often never are able to invest in an 
employer's retirement plan. This summer I introduced a 
bipartisan bill that would encourage small employers to provide 
the spouses of active duty servicemembers with accelerated 
eligibility for retirement plans and ownership of employer 
contributions to those plans. That aims to address the reality 
that military spouses often have to move every year or two, and 
they are never able to fully vest in their employer-sponsored 
retirement plans, so they lose the money that has been put 
aside. We would incentivize, through tax credits, small 
employers to accelerate the eligibility for military spouses.
    Based on GAO's recent report on women's retirement 
security, how does having a retirement plan to supplement 
social security affect retirement security? How big a factor is 
it? I know in my State the average social security recipient is 
receiving only $16,000 a year.
    Mr. Dodaro. It has a huge effect. What we have found, of 
the women who have low confidence in their ability to have 
retirement security, 46 percent had no retirement plan at all. 
For those people who had a defined benefit and defined 
contributions or an IRA, some women had all three, through the 
course of their career. Of those women who had retirement 
plans, 61 percent had high confidence. Without a plan, 46 
percent low confidence; high confidence, 61 percent, or with a 
plan 61 percent high confidence. It makes a huge difference. It 
is a stark difference, Senator, and I applaud you for taking on 
the issue of military spouses. Our military makes a lot of 
sacrifices, and their families, and I think recognizing that 
with some effort.
    We have also pointed out for people who change their jobs 
frequently sometimes they leave their contributions in the 
retirement savings and do not roll them over into their new 
retirement plan. We have made some recommendations on that area 
as well. That is part of financial literacy and education as 
well, but a lot of people left. We found, I think it was 
several--about 16 million accounts, that was $8.5 billion that 
people left in their retirement savings, that could have been 
rolled over to their new accounts.
    Helping the military in that fashion, I think, is a noble 
goal.
    The Chairman. Thank you. Well, that 61 percent versus 46 
percent is an extraordinary figure to guide our work as well. I 
am glad that you ended on the issue of financial literacy, 
because that is a theme that I noticed was repeated in your 
report, and also the importance of starting financial education 
at an early age. It really is not very helpful if we learn, 
when we are in our 50's or 60's, what we should have done back 
then.
    The Maine Credit Union League has created Financial Fitness 
Fairs to help students learn about budgeting, saving, and other 
aspects of financial literacy. Since the program's inception in 
2004, more than 65,000 Maine students have participated, and I 
think they will make far better choices and decisions than I 
did when I was leaving the congressional staff and unwisely 
withdrew my retirement savings.
    Past GAO reports have noted the importance of partnerships 
among Federal, State, local, nonprofit, and private 
organization providing financial literacy. Based on your 
previous work and the findings from the latest report, does GAO 
have any recommendations on how we can better coordinate 
Federal and private efforts, or State efforts, or high school 
efforts even, to expand financial education and target 
individuals when they are younger and can avoid making those 
mistakes, such as not rolling over their retirement savings?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think it is very important to have these 
partnership efforts. There is a bill that Senator Jones has 
introduced to deal with youth that would give grants to people 
to do things. Part of the complication here is the Federal 
Government does not have a strong role in curriculum-setting at 
the State and local level, which is their purview and their 
prerogative. The Federal Government can give grants and other 
means to try to stimulate having greater education efforts at 
that local level, and that proposed legislation would help in 
that vein.
    The other thing that could be done is that the Federal 
agencies could work with the private sector and the states 
through employers to provide employer-based education. A few 
years ago I had a forum where I invited experts in financial 
literacy to talk about this issue, and they said the powerful 
impact of employers could have, and, of course, people start 
working at young ages to, that it could have this effect.
    Based on that I started a program at GAO in 2012 to provide 
financial education for our people. Now we have--75 percent or 
more of our people have advanced degrees, but they still, you 
know, face challenges in navigating some of life's biggest 
decisions, on purchasing a home, saving for college education, 
dealing with life insurance, health insurance issues, how to 
take advantage of your retirement systems and approach that you 
have. I think that is a very important issue.
    Also, we have recommendations in the women's area, and this 
could be worked at the Federal and State level as well, on the 
Qualified Domestic Relations Orders. This is where there is a 
divorce and there is a division of assets. What our research 
found, Senator, is that very few people were aware of these 
Qualified Domestic Relations Orders, do not use them, which 
provides a court judgment order or degree that better protects 
the spouses in that particular time. Usually it is the woman 
who would be, you know, protected in this particular case. We 
recommended that the Department of Labor provide more 
information out there, and this could be done, you know, 
earlier in people's lifespans as well, because people marry 
early and things, but I think getting education in the school 
system is important, but the Federal Government could be a 
catalyst that can't, you know, provide any dictas to the State 
and local level. I know the State and local level, based on 
some of the conversations I had, there are efforts underway, 
through some of their organizations, to have curriculum to 
increase financial literacy.
    Many years ago, when I joined GAO, and I was not sure 
whether I wanted to stay long term, I had an idea on developing 
a financial literacy course that I would teach as a teacher in 
high school. My father is a teacher, my mother and sister are 
teachers, so I was following on that path. That was, you know, 
48 years ago, and it is still a really important issue. In 
fact, it has become more complicated because people have to 
make more of their own decisions, for retirement and the 
financial implications of the situation. The Federal Government 
can do a lot as leveraging their reach and their ability to do 
it.
    There is also the Financial Literacy and Education 
Commission that we have done work on. This is led by Treasury 
and vice-chaired by the Consumer Financial Product 
organization. We have made recommendations there for better 
coordination, and they could become a catalyst in also working 
with the State and local levels and nonprofits and others to 
get more information.
    Finally I would mention there is the Women's Retirement 
Security Act that has been introduced. That would give grants 
to nonprofits that would have outreach to women to provide 
financial literacy education, counseling, advice and counsel to 
a wide range of women. That way, I think that is intended 
mostly to deal with adult, or women who are older in their 
career.
    I think, you know, we all learn from our grandparents and 
our parents, and if they can also impart on their own children 
the importance of education, so the more we can educate 
everybody, no matter where they are in their lifespan, the 
better off we are going to be, but educating the older women 
would have great advice. They have great sway over their 
grandchildren and children, and imparting to them the 
importance of getting it to. You get it from the schools but 
getting it from your own parents and your family unit I think 
would be helpful as well.
    The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Sinema.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you. Thank you to our Chair and our 
Ranking Member for this important hearing on the challenges 
facing women in retirement, and thank you to our Comptroller 
Dodaro for testifying today on the 2020 GAO report on 
retirement security, which included the perspective of everyday 
women across the country.
    Women, in particular, face unique challenges in preparing 
for retirement, including lower career earnings due to unequal 
pay and the expectation that they will shoulder most of the 
responsibilities in raising a family and caregiving. We have 
seen this throughout the pandemic, where many women in Arizona 
are balancing working from home, helping their children with 
distance learning, and for older women, supporting their 
grandchildren as well.
    The economic effects of the pandemic will also have long-
term impacts on retirement security, in particular, how to 
recover from the impact of lost earnings, unemployment, and 
reduced savings.
    In Arizona we have also seen an increase in coronavirus-
related scams targeting seniors. Criminal fraudsters are 
seeking to take advantage of the public health emergency by 
peddling dangerous, unproven cures, or even trying to steal 
people's unemployment benefits or stimulus checks.
    My question for you is that the GAO report notes that when 
seeking professional financial advice women in 10 focus groups 
had negative experiences, which they said include receiving 
poor advice, paying high fees, or becoming a victim of fraud. 
That is why we introduced the Senior Security Act, which builds 
a task force at the SEC to protect seniors from financial 
investment scams. We also promoted the National Senior Fraud 
Awareness Day to help educate seniors on coronavirus scams and 
protect their savings and investments. Can you talk about how 
having financial assets, including investments, contributes to 
retirement confidence?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, the financial investments is a key driver 
in confidence level for women. In fact, it was the most 
important driver that we saw. This was particularly true for 
liquid assets. Liquidity is a big issue, and by liquidity we 
mean checking accounts, savings accounts, stocks, bonds, and 
other investments that they had. Women with higher liquidity 
had a much, much higher confidence in their ability to provide 
a secure retirement for themselves, so it was a huge factor, 
Senator Sinema.
    Senator Sinema. Well, thank you. I very much appreciate 
that and I appreciate the work you have done on this report.
    Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Casey, before I yield 
back my time I want to address something that occurred late 
last night. My team received information last night that the 
Committee had changed its requirements for verifying Senators' 
attendance in our Committee, and I was concerned about this 
because it appears to allege that Senators lack integrity or 
lacked fairness or the willingness to be honest about their 
participation in the Committee.
    My question is, has there been an instance in which 
Senators have lied about their attendance in this Committee or 
was this change made as a prospective concern with the 
expectation that some Senators would lie about their attendance 
or participation in this Committee?
    The Chairman. Senator Sinema, I apologize if you were given 
that impression. We are adapting to a new era where we have 
some Senators showing up physically in the hearing room, as we 
did today, others joining us remotely. What we are trying to 
ensure is that as attendance is kept at these hearings, and as 
you know I always go out of my way to acknowledge every single 
Senator who participates, and I am grateful for their 
participation, this becomes more difficult to do when I look at 
the television screen and the initials do not match the 
Senators' initials.
    If that Senator does not come on either verbally, as you 
have today, or as most Senators do both with audio and video, I 
cannot tell whether that is a staffer just tuning in to monitor 
the hearing or whether a Senator is waiting to make comments.
    I would be happy to talk with you further about that, and I 
certainly apologize if you took, as you obviously did, offense 
at it, because I have a great deal of respect for you and for 
each and every member of this Committee. It was simply an 
attempt to make sure that we know, particularly when someone 
such as you did today, chooses not to turn on their video, and 
we see initials that may not match the Senators, we do not have 
any idea whether it is a Senator who is participating.
    Let me give you a great example. Doug Jones--and I was 
going to acknowledge him--was on earlier, but it was his 
staff's initials that were showing, so we knew that he planned 
to speak today. He then got called away, so I was able--I am 
able to acknowledge that he was present. If the Senator is 
neither speaking nor showing us any video, and the initials do 
not match that of the Senators, I have no way of knowing 
whether or not the Senator is present, either remotely--when 
they are joining us remotely.
    I would be happy to work with you, if you have got a better 
suggestion for how to do that. I go out of my way to try to be 
fair to both sides and to acknowledge the presence of everyone 
who is here. For example, Senator Blumenthal was here earlier 
and had to leave. He was here in person. Tim Scott was online, 
because he wanted to hear the Comptroller General's statement, 
but then had to leave.
    I am going out of my way to acknowledge everyone, so I am 
very surprised at your reaction and harsh criticism, suggesting 
that somehow I am trying to not acknowledge Senators. In fact, 
the opposite is the case.
    Senator Sinema. I appreciate that explanation, Chairman. My 
concern is the idea that there would not be an acknowledgement 
when a Senator says, ``I am here. I am participating in this 
Committee,'' and to not be believed about that, which is a 
concern.
    The Chairman. That is not at all what was conveyed to you, 
and I would certainly go out of my way to acknowledge everyone. 
In fact, I was just about to say that I saw briefly that 
Kirsten Gillibrand, our Senator from New York State, did join 
us briefly. She was not able to stay. I want everyone to know 
that she did turn in for a time. I realize people have 
different schedules and busy schedules, and we are trying to 
accommodate everyone in this new world. Obviously, in the old 
world we lived in, this was very easy because everyone would be 
here, physically present. Some, such as yourself, have chosen 
not to be, but I realize that does not mean that you are not 
interested. It does not mean that you are not participating, 
and that is why I just called upon you.
    Senator Sinema. I appreciate that, Chairman. I would be 
willing and interested to followup with your staff to find a 
way where we can solve this issue, as many other Committees 
have, in a way that acknowledges the participation of everyone 
who is joining. There are some Senators----
    The Chairman. With all due respect, I acknowledged your 
participation. I called on you. You have just had an exchange. 
Despite the fact that your video is not on, you are clearly 
paying attention and asked great questions, as you always do, 
and gave a statement that gave you additional time, so I really 
don't think there is an issue here.
    Senator Sinema. Well, we can followup.
    The Chairman. I am happy to talk with you further.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    The Chairman. I am now going to, seeing no other Senators 
seeking to be recognized, I now am going to do my closing 
statement and then turn to Senator Casey for his closing 
statement.
    First, let me thank the Comptroller General for joining us 
and for the report, and most of all for getting out there and 
doing focus groups with 190 women across the country. Women 
face unique challenges in preparing for and maintaining a 
financially secure retirement, particularly in this era, where 
private sector defined benefit plans are increasingly rare, so 
more of the responsibility is falling on the individuals.
    There are many steps that we have discussed today that can 
make a positive difference. First, to help increase retirement 
security we need to do more to tackle the skyrocketing costs of 
prescription drugs, and that is an area where our Committee has 
really led the way.
    Second, we need to protect and strengthen social security, 
including finally fixing the unfair government pension offset 
and windfall elimination provisions.
    Third, we need to look to increase retirement savings and 
access to employer-based retirement savings plans. We made some 
progress last year with the enactment of the SECURE Act, but 
more needs to be done, including passage of my bill to make it 
easier for military spouses to access employer-sponsored 
retirement plans.
    Fourth, we need to continue to look for ways to support our 
family caregivers. This has been a priority of mine in the 
Senate, and I look forward to the release of the national 
strategy to support family caregivers.
    Fifth, we have heard today repeatedly about the importance 
of financial education and making sure that people are planning 
at young ages for their retirement. There are other important 
actions we can take, including continuing this Committee's work 
to combat scams that target our Nation's seniors and increasing 
funding to provide low-income seniors with safe places to live 
independently.
    I want to thank our Ranking Member, Senator Casey, and all 
the Committee members on both side of the aisle for their 
participation today. Senator Casey.
    Senator Casey. Thank you, Chairman Collins, for holding 
this hearing. Probably could not have a more important topic at 
this time in our Nation's history. I want to thank, as well, 
Comptroller Dodaro, for the testimony today and for his 
continuing exemplary public service.
    As we heard from him today, by virtue of the report and the 
good work of his team, women face significant challenges in 
preparing for retirement, and these challenges leave them more 
vulnerable to falling into poverty and old age. As we know that 
the ongoing pandemic will exacerbate many of the issues we 
discussed today, I hope GAO will consider conducting a similar 
line of work through a COVID-19 lens in the near future.
    We must work together to comprehensively address the 
shortcomings of our retirement system and ensure that all women 
are able to achieve financial security in retirement. In the 
short term, we should pass a comprehensive relief bill that 
helps working families and prevents additional permanent damage 
to their economic health.
    In the meantime, and over time, I should say, this will 
take a while, but we should outline some broad goals. First, we 
should, as I indicated earlier and as I now many agree, 
strengthen and safeguard social security. Second, protect 
workers' hard-earned pensions. A point that Mr. Dodaro made 
about the multiemployer pension system is an important one. 
Third, we have to close the pay gap, and fourth, create 
permanent paid sick and paid family and medical leave.
    I look forward, as I know many members do, to continuing to 
work with our colleagues in the Senate on these critical 
issues.
    Thank you, Chairman Collins.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator Casey. Committee 
members have until Friday, October 2nd, to submit any 
additional questions for the record. I again want to thank our 
witness, Ranking Member Casey, and all the Committee members 
who participated in today's hearing, whether they were here 
physically in the Committee room or joining us remotely.
    Finally, let me thank our Committee staff on both sides of 
the aisle for their hard work, and also the GAO staff. I know 
that the Comptroller General would want me to acknowledge their 
hard work as well. As I said, I particularly appreciate the 
focus groups that they conducted throughout the country, 
involving some 190 women, so we could have the benefit of their 
perspective.
    This concludes our hearing today. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 11:08 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]



      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
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                      Prepared Witness Statements

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                  Additional Statements for the Record

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