[Senate Hearing 116-522]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                                                        S. Hrg. 116-522
 
                   THAT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT CALLING:
                      PROTECTING SENIORS FROM THE
                   SOCIAL SECURITY IMPERSONATION SCAM

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS


                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             WASHINGTON, DC

                               __________

                            JANUARY 29, 2020

                               __________

                           Serial No. 116-17

         Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
         
         
         
         
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]         
         


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
        
        
        
                          ______                       


             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
46-704PDF           WASHINGTON : 2022        
        
        
                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina         KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York
MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
MARCO RUBIO, Florida                 ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                DOUG JONES, Alabama
MIKE BRAUN, Indiana                  KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona
RICK SCOTT, Florida                  JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
                              ----------                              
            Sarah Khasawinah, Majority Acting Staff Director
                 Kathryn Mevis, Minority Staff Director
                 
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

Opening Statement of Senator Susan M. Collins, Chairman..........     1
Opening Statement of Senator Robert P. Casey, Jr., Ranking Member     3

                           PANEL OF WITNESSES

Hon. Andrew Saul, Commissioner, Social Security Administration, 
  Washington, D.C................................................     5
Hon. Gail S. Ennis, Inspector General, Social Security 
  Administration, Washington, D.C................................     6
Machel Anderson, Victim of the Social Security Impersonation 
  Scam, Ogden, Utah..............................................    23
Justin Groshon, Manager, Saco Social Security Office (appearing 
  on behalf of the National Council of Social Security Management 
  Associations), Saco, Maine.....................................    24
Nora Dowd Eisenhower, Executive Director, Mayor's Commission on 
  Aging, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania..............................    26

                                APPENDIX
                      Prepared Witness Statements

Hon. Andrew Saul, Commissioner, Social Security Administration, 
  Washington, D.C................................................    39
Hon. Gail S. Ennis, Inspector General, Social Security 
  Administration, Washington, D.C................................    45
Machel Anderson, Victim of the Social Security Impersonation 
  Scam, Ogden, Utah..............................................    54
Justin Groshon, Manager, Saco Social Security Office (appearing 
  on behalf of the National Council of Social Security Management 
  Associations), Saco, Maine.....................................    59
Nora Dowd Eisenhower, Executive Director, Mayor's Commission on 
  Aging, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania..............................    64

                        Questions for the Record

Hon. Andrew Saul, Commissioner, Social Security Administration, 
  Washington, D.C................................................    71
Hon. Gail S. Ennis, Inspector General, Social Security 
  Administration, Washington, D.C................................    75
Nora Dowd Eisenhower, Executive Director, Mayor's Commission on 
  Aging, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania..............................    76


                   THAT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT CALLING:

                      PROTECTING SENIORS FROM THE

                   SOCIAL SECURITY IMPERSONATION SCAM

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29, 2020

                                       U.S. Senate,
                                Special Committee on Aging,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., in 
Room SD-562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. 
Collins, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Collins, McSally, Hawley, Braun, Casey, 
Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Jones, Sinema, and Rosen.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. This Committee will come to order.
    Good morning. Today the Special Committee on Aging is 
releasing its updated 2020 Fraud Book. It lists the top 10 
scams that have been reported to our Committee over the past 
year. The good news is that the notorious IRS Impersonation 
Scam, which had been the top scam reported to the Committee for 
5 consecutive years, has fallen off dramatically. It used to be 
No. 1; now it is No. 7. Still a problem, but public awareness 
has certainly helped to decrease the prevalence of that scam. 
Unfortunately, the Social Security Impersonation Scam, the 
topic of this morning's hearing, has risen to take its place.
    Now, reports of the SSA Scam barely registered as recently 
as 2017, but then it began to take off, cracking the top 10 
scans reported to our Committee's Fraud Hotline in 2018 and 
becoming the No. 1 reported scam last year as shown on the 
chart displayed on the monitors.
    This scam has resulted in $38 million in reported losses to 
Americans in 2019 alone. I suspect that that is just the tip of 
the iceberg because many seniors who have been affected by this 
scam are either too embarrassed to report their loss or do not 
even know who to turn to. The emotional and psychological toll 
for those who have lost hard-earned life savings are beyond 
measure.
    We will hear today from Machel Andersen, who has been a 
victim of this ruthless scheme, and I want to personally thank 
Machel for her willingness to come forward and share her story, 
because of her willingness to do so, I am certain that there 
will be other older Americans who now know to just hang up the 
phone when they are called by somebody who is asking them for 
money or gift cards and pretending to be from the Social 
Security Administration.
    We are also very fortunate to have other terrific witnesses 
with us today and who are working very hard to combat this 
scam, and I will be introducing them at the appropriate time.
    Today we will highlight the features of the Social Security 
Scam that are key to defeating it. Typically, the scam begins 
with an unsolicited robocall with a spoofed Caller ID falsely 
displaying the Social Security Administration as the source of 
the call. Now, naturally, most of us, if we see on Caller ID 
that the Social Security Administration is calling us, we are 
going to answer the phone.
    The fraudster making the call will attempt to scare the 
victim by claiming that his or her Social Security number has 
been suspended due to suspicious activity, deceiving the victim 
so that he or she will do as instructed without question.
    Now, my own 92-year-old mother received five of these 
Social Security Administration scam calls on her cell phone. 
Fortunately, she was not taken in. She knew to call me, but 
they were so clever and so specific, telling her that her 
number had been compromised, it had been used to commit fraud 
in Texas. There were so many details that she wisely chose to 
check with me to see if there could be any truth in it, but 
that is how clever and ruthless these criminals are. The 
scammer then attempts to isolate the victim so that no one can 
warn him or her of the scam and break the spell.
    Finally, the criminals claim that the only way that the 
victim can resolve the problem is to provide sensitive 
financial information over the phone and transfer thousands of 
dollars to them as quickly as possible. The speed and amenity 
of gift cards have made them the scammers' current payment 
method of choice.
    To emphasize the need for urgent action and the dire nature 
of the victim's situation, the scammers often work in teams to 
impersonate local law enforcement, the IRS, or other Federal 
officials. In one particularly outrageous case that we will 
hear about this morning, a criminal claimed to be the head of 
the Drug Enforcement Administration and even suggested to his 
victim that she verify his identity by looking up his name and 
phone number at the agency online.
    To keep their victims under the spell, the scammers will 
demand that they cooperate with their fake investigation by the 
Government or face severe fines or even jail time. They also 
attempt to isolate the victim by keeping him or her on the 
phone uninterrupted for hours or even days at a time by 
instructing them not to tell anybody about what is going on. 
They will cite the confidentially of the investigation.
    In a recent case reported by the Wall Street Journal, an 
oncology nurse in New York was instructed to leave work without 
notice, check into a hotel, and stay on the phone for nearly 50 
hours. Coached by the fraudsters through a series of 
transactions at her bank and credit union, she lost almost 
$340,000 to scammers over 3 days.
    Educating people, particularly older Americans who are more 
likely to be the targets, is key to defeating this scam. In 
today's hearing, we hope to learn more about how these 
fraudsters entrap their victims as well as what the Social 
Security Administration has done and plans to do to get the 
word out to the public, to consumer groups, to businesses, and 
to law enforcement at every level.
    We will also look at what should be done in response. In 
that area, I am pleased to note the late-breaking development 
that the Social Security Administration, working with the 
Office of the Inspector General and the Department of Justice, 
has recently filed civil suits and temporary restraining orders 
in two cases against five companies and three individuals. That 
is finally progress.
    I also look forward to asking the Inspector General about 
new enforcement activity to stop these harmful thefts.
    I appreciate all of our witnesses in joining in this 
effort. My hope is that our hearing today will help heighten 
public awareness about this scam because the best way for us to 
prevent this scam from ever again robbing seniors of their 
hard-earned savings is to prevent the scam from happening in 
the first place.
    Thank you, and I am now pleased to turn to our Ranking 
Member, Senator Casey, for his opening statement.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
              ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., RANKING MEMBER

    Senator Casey. Chairman Collins, thank you very much. 
Thanks for holding this hearing today to discuss Social 
Security impersonation scams.
    As everyone here knows, we are at the middle of a very 
important proceeding on the floor of the Senate. At the same 
time, for Americans who are worried about their loved ones 
being scammed out of their hard-earned savings, our efforts 
here and the efforts of others to stop con artists and 
fraudsters must be taken just as seriously.
    It is for this reason I am pleased this Committee, the 
Aging Committee, is taking on this topic as the first one that 
we examine in the year 2020.
    The Social Security impersonation scam is an imposter scam, 
plain and simple. In this case, however, the imposter 
diabolically is exploiting a public good, a benefit paid for 
and earned by hard working Americans, so we must not only be 
concerned for the sake of the individuals targeted. We also 
have to be concerned for the integrity of Federal departments 
and agencies that are tasked with serving all of us.
    Just last week, as we were preparing for this hearing, one 
of my staff members received this message from Social Security 
imposters.
    [Audio clip plays.]
    Senator Casey. You can tell from just that brief example 
how alarming this could be for someone when they are using 
highly charged language to get that individual's attention. 
Anyone--anyone--could be a victim of this kind of a crime, so 
one thing we have to be focused on, of course, is tracking 
these people down, prosecuting them and throwing them in jail, 
but we cannot just talk about that here. We have got to talk 
about ways to prevent it, and that is one of the main purposes 
of the hearing.
    In this case, thankfully, my staff member recognized this 
for what it was, but not all Americans are immersed in this 
issue every day.
    Today we are here to make clear that no one from the United 
States Government--no one from our Government--will ever make 
these types of threats.
    In some ways, as Senator Collins talked about, we made some 
progress on the IRS version of this by warning people what the 
IRS would not do. We have to do the same in this case.
    We need help getting this message out. Every American, 
particularly seniors, must be armed with information. It will 
take an all-hands-on-deck approach. The Committee is doing its 
part by releasing our 2020 Fraud Book.
    When I visit senior centers in my home State of 
Pennsylvania, I bring copies of the report with me. Every 
single individual who wants a copy goes home with one. It is 
real bestseller at senior centers, as long as we keep bringing 
those copies with us.
    This year, these same seniors will also be going home with 
a poster that inserted into the book, and that is in the back. 
You can take a look at that if you get a copy of it here. I 
want to make sure I use these visual aids.
    This poster, which is not huge--but I think you get a sense 
of the size of it, and that gives people a lot of information 
that our Committee prepared.
    We are grateful, Senator Collins and I are, that our staff 
helped us. Both staffs helped us with those, but that is 
another way to remind seniors. We hope that this poster will be 
held up by the proverbial magnets on refrigerators or other 
ways to remind folks about this scam.
    Public awareness alone is not enough. The Federal 
Government has got to redouble its efforts. I know we are going 
to be hearing about those efforts today.
    It is for this reason that I joined Senator Collins and 
others on the Committee in sending letters to the Social 
Security Administration, the Inspector General for Social 
Security, the Elder Justice Coordinating Committee, and the 
Federal Trade Commission asking for help. I know that all these 
entities are eager to help, to engage.
    The private sector must also be involved. I have a bill 
with Senator Jerry Moran, the Stop Senior Scams Act, which will 
help banks, wire transfer companies, and retailers to train 
their employees to spot a scam and to stop it before money 
exchanges hands.
    The Commerce Committee passed this bill last year without 
any objection. We are trying to get it through the Senate as 
well.
    We know that con artists and scammers should not be allowed 
to steal money from our loved ones. Nor should they be allowed 
to steal our confidence in Government itself. We got a lot of 
work to do, and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses 
today and the proposals they have.
    Again, I look forward to working with Chairman Collins, my 
colleagues on the Committee, and others in the Senate to stop 
these imposters in their tracks.
    Thank you Chairman Collins.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    I want to welcome Senator McSally and Senator Hawley to our 
hearing today. They have been very active members of our 
Committee, and we appreciate their taking the time during this 
very busy time for all of us.
    I now want to turn to our witnesses, and I am very pleased 
to welcome our first panel. We have the Commissioner of the 
Social Security Administration, Andrew Saul. Commissioner Saul 
was sworn in as Commissioner in June 2019, and he immediately 
began taking a leadership role in the Federal response to the 
Social Security impersonation scam. He has a longstanding 
commitment to protecting and improving financial security for 
older Americans, having previously served for 9 years as the 
Chairman of the Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board, 
which oversees the Federal Employee Retirement System.
    Our second witness will be Gail Ennis, the Inspector 
General of the Social Security Administration. Inspector 
General Ennis was sworn in as IG in January 2019 after 
practicing law for more than two decades in securities 
litigation and banking enforcement. She has greatly increased 
her office's focus on the SSA scam, and we are very pleased to 
have two such dedicated public servants with us this morning.
    Commissioner Saul, we will start with you.

          STATEMENT OF HON. ANDREW SAUL, COMMISSIONER,
        SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. Saul. Well, thank you very much, Senators, for 
welcoming us here. As you said, as everybody said so far, the 
publicity, the education is really the most important thing, 
and by having this hearing, I hope we can further that goal.
    Committee Chair Collins, Ranking Member Casey, and members 
of the Committee, I am Andrew Saul, Commissioner of the Social 
Security. Thank you for inviting me here today to talk about 
the scam crisis. Everyone here has probably received one of 
these scam calls, and too many people have been victimized and 
lost money. It is a national problem.
    At first, we were not doing enough to combat these scams. 
That was shortsighted. The magnitude of this problem caught us 
off guard. Americans trust our agency and our employees, and we 
cannot allow swindlers to erode that trust.
    In my first office visits, employees told me how these 
scams harm Americans and our service. We have received more and 
more reports from people who have been tricked by or are 
worried about these calls. Americans want our help on this 
crisis, and we also need to do critical Social Security work, 
like processing benefit applications and making sure we pay 
people the right amount.
    Within a few months of getting here, I made fighting these 
scams and helping our front-line offices a top priority. With 
Inspector General Ennis' help, we started fixing things. We 
have been working closely with OIG, and I asked Deputy 
Commissioner Black to lead our efforts to curb the scams and 
see what more we could do. Now I believe we are on the right 
track. We are taking action at the national level to help 
front-line employees provide better service to their local 
communities, employees like Mr. Groshon, a district manager in 
Maine, who will speak to you about his office's experiences 
last year before we had taken on this problem.
    Let me tell you about some of the things we are doing. 
Anyone who comes to our home page will see a bold red banner 
with scam information just like the one you see on the screens 
in this room. We are working to add messages to the pages 
people visit most often and here you see the--this is up from 
our actual web page on our home page.
    We developed an online scam reporting form to help OIG get 
the information it needs to investigate and stop these crooks. 
Since this form went live in mid-November, OIG has already 
received over 100,000 written reports. We overhauled the OIG 
Fraud Hotline and improved our 800 number. Callers now hear 
about the scams and how to report them to OIG online. We work 
with OIG and major phone carriers to block calls that attempt 
to spoof our toll-free phone numbers from ever reaching the 
public.
    Education is key. We are using email, television, radio, 
print, and social media, including YouTube, Facebook, and 
Twitter. Last week, we began rolling out emails to all 47 
million My Social Security account holders, and we are working 
to add a scam awareness message to the outside of our 
envelopes, which will reach millions of people.
    I made public service announcements that we released this 
month to TV and radio outlets across the country. I did an 
interview with AARP that focused heavily on the scams, and AARP 
plans to share scam information with its 38 million members.
    We appreciate that Walmart work with us and OIG to display 
our message in over 2,000 of its stores nationwide, and we are 
recruiting other organizations and agencies. We have issued two 
recent national press releases regarding the scams, and last 
month, we provided every Member of Congress materials on the 
scam. I urge you to help us get the message out.
    Everyone needs to hear this message. If a caller says there 
is a problem with your Social Security number or account, hang 
up. Do not provide them money or personal information. Report 
it at OIG.SSA.gov.
    This is a tough problem to solve. These scams evolve as we 
work to shut down Social Security-related scams. Crooks likely 
target another agency, just as they move from IRS to Social 
Security Administration. Our country needs broad national 
solutions. We all share responsibility to fight this serious 
threat to the public.
    If you have been tricked by these scams, you are not alone. 
These criminals are very good at what they do, and you should 
not feel embarrassed or ashamed if you are a victim. You can 
help protect other people by coming forward and reporting what 
you know to OIG.
    I thank this Committee for holding this hearing to elevate 
the visibility of these scams and for working on solutions. I 
would be happy, of course, to answer any questions.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Commissioner.
    Inspector General Ennis?

      STATEMENT OF HON. GAIL S. ENNIS, INSPECTOR GENERAL,
        SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Ms. Ennis. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Casey, and 
members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify 
about the OIG's efforts to raise public awareness and disrupt 
Social Security phone scams.
    For the better part of a decade, Americans have been 
plagued by persistent robocalls and live callers who pretend to 
be Government employees. Too many Americans have fallen victim 
to these scams, believing sophisticated lies and threats, 
because they fear for their families, their livelihoods, or 
even their freedom.
    We have interviewed victims, including a 30-year-old mother 
of two in Virginia who paid a scammer $9,000 in Target in 
iTunes gift cards because she had no one to care for her 
newborn if she went to prison, and a 75-year-old Californian 
who was harassed and threatened for over a month by a fake 
police officer. Eventually, he wired and mailed cashier's 
checks totaling over $260,000.
    These insidious and pervasive scams have also impacted 
Social Security's ability to deliver its vital services timely, 
and they have damaged the public's trust in Social Security. To 
combat them, we have dedicated significant resources to 
investigative efforts, working with the Justice Department and 
other law enforcement agencies, and we have raised public 
awareness working with SSA and other partners to reach as many 
people as we can with our educational message.
    I am very pleased to announce that as a result of our 
investigative efforts, the Department of Justice filed two 
civil complaints yesterday in the Eastern District of New York 
requesting temporary restraining orders, preliminary and 
permanent injunctions, and other equitable relief against five 
telecommunications companies and their owners.
    As of this morning, one of the two temporary restraining 
orders covering three of the five companies and their owners 
has been granted, and we are hopeful the other temporary 
restraining order will also be granted.
    According to the complaints, these companies known as 
``gateway carriers'' facilitate the delivery of millions of 
fraudulent robocalls every day from foreign call centers to the 
United States telephone system and ultimately to the personal 
phones of victims throughout the United States.
    These gateway carriers were notified repeatedly they were 
passing scam calls, yet they allowed at least hundreds of 
millions of scam calls into the U.S. telephone system, and they 
have earned a lot of money in the process in essence, profiting 
off of scam victims.
    This civil action is the result of months of investigative 
work in close coordination with DOJ's Consumer Protection 
Branch, which heads the Transnational Elder Fraud Strike Force. 
The U.S. Postal Inspection Service was a partner in this 
effort, and other law enforcement agencies assisted, including 
Homeland Security's investigations, Treasury Inspector General 
for Tax Administration, and the Secret Service. The FTC and the 
FCC provided data to support the investigation.
    I am particularly proud of Social Security OIG's role in 
the collaborative effort. Our agents and investigative counsel 
advocated for this top-down approach to combat the scams. We 
took the lead in investigating the gateway carriers, and we 
have played a pivotal role leading up to yesterday's filings.
    We conducted a complex analysis of phone call routing, 
interviewed countless victims, and methodically built the 
Government's case.
    We still have a long way to go to permanently shut down 
these and other gateway carriers that facilitate scam calls, 
and perhaps more importantly, we need to ensure we deter others 
from filling that void.
    We continue to conduct these and other scam-related 
investigations. I cannot share many details, because our other 
investigations are ongoing, but we will update you as events 
unfold.
    Notwithstanding all of our investigative efforts, I 
continue to believe that raising public awareness is the best, 
most effective way to combat imposter scams. No matter how many 
investigations we conduct or how many scammers we put out of 
business, there will always be more around the corner, and they 
will devise new ways of scamming innocent victims.
    You can learn about our public outreach efforts in detail 
in my written statement for the record, and I will also take 
questions.
    Despite all of our efforts, imposter scams are a broader 
problem than Social Security or its IG can address on our own. 
We need a coordinated, comprehensive approach that harnesses 
resources and expertise across the Federal Government for both 
investigative efforts and raising public awareness. Therefore, 
we encourage Congress to consider ways to expand upon the 
recently passed TRACED Act. We would like to see the law 
require gateway carriers to know their customers and terminate 
service to known scammers.
    Congress could also grant asset forfeiture authority to 
certain agencies, allowing them to use seized funds for victim 
restitution or consumer protection outreach.
    Thank you for holding this hearing today. Your involvement 
spurs increased attention to this issue and helps move us 
closer to a comprehensive solution. Thank you again for 
inviting me to testify, and I am happy to answer any questions.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    Let me begin my comments by thanking both of you for your 
efforts. I will tell you that when this Committee first started 
becoming aware of this scam 2 years ago, we naturally contacted 
the Social Security Administration, the IG's office, and 
frankly, we had a very difficult time getting them to pay 
attention and realize how important it was for the agency to be 
front and center in communicating with beneficiaries about this 
scam. That has completely changed since the two of you took 
your positions last year.
    Usually, I start my questioning by chastising the 
witnesses. In this case, I am going to start them by thanking 
both of you because you are the ones who have the access to the 
people who are most likely to be the victims and the means to 
meet them, such as through your messages to those who have 
online Social Security accounts, the public service messages, 
and the enforcement work, which I think is so important.
    I want to talk a little bit about the role of these gateway 
telecommunications companies because in reading about the 
complains that were filed just yesterday, I learned that the 
companies that had been charged had helped to funnel some 700 
million calls through that were scam calls. That is absolutely 
outrageous, and they are making money from these fraudsters.
    Mr. Saul, you talked about the tremendous outreach that you 
are doing, and, Inspector General Ennis, you talked about 
working on this particular case. I would like each of you to 
comment on what is the reaction of the telecommunication 
companies when you go to them and ask them to know their 
customers, to crack down, and to help solve this problem.
    Commissioner, we will start with you.
    Mr. Saul. Well, I think that really the Inspector General 
has much more knowledge about this particular part of the 
function.
    As far as I am concerned, I think that, that is a piece of 
the whole problem. I think the real essence and my job as 
Commissioner is to be sure that our beneficiaries, our 
customers, are aware of what a serious problem this is.
    What I am trying to do and focusing the assets of our 
administration is on the public outreach. I mean, we are coming 
up with new things, actually, every week to improve the 
outreach that we have. We are not where we want to be yet, but 
we have come in the last 5 or 6 months a long, long way. I 
think that we were not doing the job, as I said in my 
statement.
    This really snuck up on us. This has become a massive 
problem, as we all know, and it is a very serious thing. I 
cannot imagine an elderly person or somebody getting these 
calls, depending on Social Security just to buy their 
groceries, and they are getting threatened that, well, if they 
do not respond, they are not going to be getting a payment in 
the future.
    The Chairman. Exactly.
    Mr. Saul. We have got a really big mess here. I mean, this 
is--and it is not going to go away quickly. I mean, I think 
that everything we can do--and I said this to AARP when I went 
over there for an interview. I said, ``Whatever help you can 
give us, this is great.'' They have got 38 million members. We 
spent the afternoon recording a whole message of which a lot of 
it was dedicated to the fraud. These are things, I think, that 
in the end will make a really big difference.
    The Chairman. I agree.
    Mr. Saul. As far as the carriers go, I would leave that to 
the Inspector General.
    The Chairman. Absolutely.
    Mr. Saul. The outreach is what I am focusing on, Senator.
    The Chairman. Inspector General Ennis, what has been the 
reaction of the telecom carriers?
    Ms. Ennis. The major telecom carriers have been very 
helpful with both us and other agencies. One of the major 
efforts is they help us with the Do Not Originate calls. If we 
can provide numbers that we know are coming, the spoofing 
numbers, for example, where they are spoofing Social Security 
numbers, if we get information to those telecoms and working 
with the major carriers, they can prevent up to 99 percent of 
those calls getting through, and so they have been a big help.
    There are pockets of rural areas and other areas that are 
not covered by the major telecom carriers, and there are 
hundreds of smaller companies, and the agency has taken over 
the Do Not Originate effort in contacting and reaching out to 
those other telecom carriers. They have sometimes more success 
than others. Some of the small companies do not have the 
technology to help us with blocking. Some of them do not want 
to help, but for the major carriers, as I said, we are up to 98 
to 99 percent blocking, and they have been very instrumental in 
that.
    The problem is with the gateway carriers, which frankly can 
operate it out of your garage. They do not need a lot of 
infrastructure. They do not need a lot of people. You can set 
up a few servers in your garage and be up and running and help 
transmit millions and millions and millions of calls and to 
introduce those calls from foreign call centers into the United 
States telecom system, and then they get routed around through 
various telecom companies. Of course, we do not work with them.
    The Chairman. Good point.
    Ms. Ennis. We are working against them at this point in 
time and had some success yesterday, but they are the crux of 
the problem right now.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I think that is very helpful for 
us to know.
    One bill that I have introduced would double the penalties 
for people who are spoofing calls, and I think that would be 
helpful as well.
    Senator Casey?
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
    I want to salute the work that Inspector General Ennis and 
Commissioner Saul are doing on these issues as it relates 
especially to outreach and education as well as the effort to 
target those who are engaged in these kinds of scams.
    Commissioner Saul, I wanted to also express my appreciation 
for the responsive approach you have brought to some of the 
work we have tried to do, in particular, reinstating regular 
meetings with stakeholder groups and abandoning any plans to 
use social media to monitor Americans with disability. I 
appreciate that progress.
    I do have an issue I want to raise today because it is 
substantial and urgent. I just gave you a copy of two letters, 
one of which you have seen, your agency has seen yesterday. 
This involves continuing disability reviews.
    The Social Security Administration issued a proposed rule 
that, in my judgment and the judgment of lots of folks around 
the country, would not be in the best interest of people with 
disabilities.
    I want to quote from the letter dated yesterday. This is 
signed by 41 United States Senators. ``The rule involves when 
and how often the Social Security Administration conducts these 
continuing disability reviews. This rule, in our judgment, 
would dramatically increase the number of reviews the agency 
conducts every year and burden millions of Americans with 
disabilities with more frequent and unjustified reviews of 
their eligibility for, one, Social Security Disability 
Insurance and, two, Supplemental Security Income known as the 
SSI benefits.''
    We go on to talk about our criticisms of the rule that 
``The administration fails to clearly establish the need for 
the changes to fully evaluate the effects these changes would 
have on beneficiaries, nor does it provide an adequate cost-
benefit analysis.'' I will not read the whole letter.
    In my judgment, this rule would bury hundreds of thousands 
of Americans who have a disability with more administrative 
paperwork and also cost the agency almost $2 billion at a time 
when I hope there would be more effort made--and I know we have 
talked a bit about this--more effort made to reduce wait times 
and also to reduce the hearing backlog.
    We know that in 2017, an estimated 10,000 people died 
waiting for SSDI benefits, and I know you are aware of that 
challenge.
    I mentioned the two letters. This is noteworthy. 120,000 as 
of today--the comment period ends the 31st, just 2 days from 
now, but 120,000 Americans have submitted comments to the rule 
as of this morning.
    I know you cannot comment directly on the rule because of 
the process, but I would hope--I would hope you would not 
continue to pursue the promulgation of this rule, and before 
all my time runs out, I want to make sure I just put two 
questions on the record. Number one, I have an additional 
letter that you now have. I know you will take a close look at 
it, but it is a long letter. It also has 37 very specific, 
separate criticisms of the rule. I would ask you, No. 1, to 
make a commitment to provide a detailed written response to me 
with regard to that letter. The second question I have is, 
Would you meet with me personally so that we can talk about 
this rule and the impact it can have?
    I await your answer on both questions.
    Mr. Saul. Of course, the answer is yes to both of those. I 
am glad to meet with you, which we have met before, Senator, 
and I stand ready to meet with you and explain our position on 
these.
    I just would like to say for the record, to answering, we 
will, of course, address this package that you have given me in 
a timely fashion.
    Let me just say nobody here, including myself obviously, is 
happy with the way the disability process has worked over the 
years. You are absolutely right. We have had people waiting--it 
is a disgrace--years in some cases to get hearings. The system 
was completely deluged in the severe economic downturn that we 
had in 2008, 2009. We are recovering from it now, and if you 
look at our wait time for hearings now, it has dropped further 
than a half of where it was at its worst.
    I am not happy with this, and one of the things I want to 
do is fix the disability process, Senator, so the next time, 
inevitably, unfortunately because of the economic cycles, we 
are going to find ourselves, hopefully, not like it was in 08 
or 09, but we are going to have a downturn, and we are going to 
have more claims coming in, and we are going to have more 
hearings and everything that put us in the mess we are in.
    We are doing two basic things. I do not want to take the 
time up here, but just to give you a little overview, the first 
thing we have done is we have asked Johns Hopkins Applied 
Physics Department, who does a tremendous amount of work for 
the Departments of Defense and Navy on health care, disability, 
just very similar to what we have, to come in and to study our 
whole disability process from beginning to end. They are in the 
midst of their survey. This is not a big expensive consultant 
thing but very limited, with a very few very bright people from 
Hopkins that understand this, and we are in the midst of their 
work. I believe we will have a report within the next 2 weeks, 
and from what I have heard, they are going to have major 
recommendations to fix the way the work flows and the processes 
work in the disability operation.
    Senator Casey. We are out of time, but I just----
    Mr. Saul. Right. That is one.
    Senator Casey. Okay.
    Mr. Saul. Just let me say the second thing, as far as the 
regulations go, we have regulations that have not been updated 
for 50 years, Senator. The workforce has changed completely. 
Obviously, thank God, health care has changed completely. I 
feel it is my responsibility to bring these regulations and the 
disability procedures up to date, and that is why I feel so 
strongly about the regulations. I am glad to sit down with you 
at any time at your convenience.
    Senator Casey. Thank you.
    Chairman Collins?
    The Chairman. Senator Casey raises a very important issue, 
and I am glad you are going to meet. I do hope we can get back 
to the topic of this hearing, and I would like to call next on 
Senator McSally.
    Senator McSally. Thank you, Chairwoman Collins and Ranking 
Member Casey, for holding this really important hearing.
    As was already discussed yesterday, we learned the Justice 
Department has sought restraining orders against two companies, 
one of which is in Arizona, my State. That facilitated hundreds 
of millions of fraudulent robocalls coming into the U.S. from 
overseas. TollFreeDeals.com in Arizona carried 720 million 
calls in just a 23-day period, most of which lasted for less 
than a second.
    Going after these companies is a first-of-a-kind action, 
and I really applaud all the effort it took to get to this 
place.
    As was also mentioned in this Wall Street Journal article, 
it talks about the challenges that both these companies operate 
out of residential addresses, with little more than a server 
and other basic equipment.
    I have said this in this Committee before. There is a 
special place in hell for people who are scamming our 
veterans--I have said that before--and our seniors and figuring 
out how to profit off taking away their life savings in this 
way. I am disgusted that there is an Arizonan who is doing 
this.
    I want to applaud the efforts. How do we even find these if 
people can operate with a server out of their garage? Maybe you 
do not want to tip your hand as to how we do that, but can you 
share a little bit more, Ms. Ennis, about the challenges of 
even getting to identify these awful companies that are preying 
upon our seniors, and what more can be done?
    Ms. Ennis. The challenges are great, and it takes a lot of 
just hard work from our investigative team. We have had agents 
working on this for quite some time. It is a lot of analysis, a 
lot of tracking things down.
    The new online form that the agency helps us develop has 
been instrumental in helping us move this case along a little 
bit better because we get more real-time information. Prior to 
our getting real-time information from the online reporting, we 
had processing time, and things took days to get to us. Real-
time information is critical because these are fast-moving 
cases because once someone transmits their money to the money 
mules who move the money around, if you cannot track that money 
mule, you have lost the money. You have lost the trail, so it 
really has just been many, many hours of dedicated work from 
our investigators to talk to victims, to look at phone 
patterns, and to look at the data that we are collecting to do 
this.
    What more we can do is just--because we are a small agency 
as compared to some other law enforcement--I have 550, give or 
take, total employees. Only several hundred are in the 
investigative side, and so what we have done is try to amplify 
our forces by joining forces with other Federal law enforcement 
and State and local partners, which does give us a broader 
footprint around the country. We have also developed a major 
case unit within the OIG, so that we can coordinate these 
efforts better and work better with our law enforcement 
partners.
    We are doing what we can being a small force but a mighty 
force and working with other Federal law enforcement to help 
us.
    Senator McSally. Great. Thank you.
    A constituent of mine named Charles McNally--not related, 
different spelling, McNally of Tucson--called the Senate Aging 
Fraud Hotline and alerted that he had been approached by what 
he believed to be a Social Security scam. Thankfully, once the 
scammers instructed him to buy and send gift cards, he became 
suspicious, cutoff communication, and he told us about the 
story. Unfortunately, Charles had already given the scammer his 
Social Security number.
    In addition to seniors giving up their hard-earned life 
savings, giving up their Social Security number can obviously 
leave them susceptible to identity theft and other ways to rob 
them.
    Do you also, either of you, have any perspective on sharing 
how we are getting to the root issues of maybe someone realizes 
it as they are moving down this road, like Charles, but he 
already gave up his Social Security number?
    Ms. Ennis. Right. The problem with identity theft is 
enormous, and even though they are looking to steal money, they 
can also be stealing and then selling identity information.
    It is a little harder to understand whether then that 
information that may be used came from this scam or something 
else----
    Senator McSally. Right, right.
    Ms. Ennis [continuing]. because, unfortunately, there are 
so many ways today that thieves can acquire your personal 
information, through phishing, email scams, through other 
identity theft operations, and then they sell it on the dark 
web.
    We are learning a lot more as we investigate, and I can 
assure you that as we investigate these cases, if there are 
things that we can do to try to help prevent further use of 
personal information that may have been acquired, we will do 
everything we can to stop it.
    In the meantime, we advise anyone to go to the FTC's 
website where they give information to consumers and people 
about what to do if you believe your identity has been stolen 
and how to best protect yourself against that.
    Senator McSally. Wonderful. Thank you.
    I really want to applaud the outreach efforts that you are 
making, Commissioner Saul. My mom and many of my constituents 
who are seniors are probably not up on Twitter and YouTube, so 
these other more traditional ways to communicate to them are 
really important.
    I am up on your Social Security system. I am like a secret 
shopper to see what emails are being sent out. I just actually 
looked it up. I had a couple emails this year about reviewing 
my accounts or anything. Maybe they went to spam, but I have 
not seen anything specifically related to alerts on scams.
    I think pushing out via email--many seniors like my mom and 
those in Arizona, they will be up on email if they are not up 
on other, and then traditional through the mail as well. I 
would just encourage you to keep it going--the more information 
the better--to help with the education.
    I know I am over my time, but do you have any other 
comments on that?
    Mr. Saul. Just to tell you that this is a continuing 
effort. We appreciate your support. You can be assured that we 
are just beginning this quest. I mean, we are into this. I 
promise you.
    Senator McSally. Wonderful. Thank you.
    Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    Senator Hawley?
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for 
hosting, for calling this hearing today.
    Commissioner, let me start with you. I am struck by the 
fact that these reports of scams with the SSA has displaced 
what was the most popular, most prevalent scam in recent years, 
which is IRS scamming. On that note, I am just wondering, have 
you consulted with officials, you or your administration 
consulted with officials at the IRS to see what worked or did 
not work for them in combating that very prevalent IRS scam in 
recent years?
    Mr. Saul. Well, I guess we are the lucky ones now, Senator. 
They have shifted to us, and as I said, I do believe that this 
is going to be expanded unless we can really do a good job in 
cutting it off.
    Yes. Our people obviously have talked to, looked at other 
agencies--Justice Department. The Inspector General, of course, 
is working with other agencies, and so is our people. A lot of 
the efforts that we are doing--various mailers, social media--
all these efforts, a lot of it is based on learning from other 
agencies.
    Senator Hawley. Are there lessons in particular that stand 
out from the agencies that you have consulted with, whether it 
is the IRS, DOJ, or others?
    Mr. Saul. I am not sure of that. I know that this whole 
program that we have developed has been aided by other people's 
efforts in the area. This is not something that we have 
invented completely on our own. It is a joint effort.
    Ms. Ennis. Senator, if you do not mind, I have something, 
if I could add to that.
    Senator Hawley. Please.
    Ms. Ennis. We have coordinated closely with the Treasury 
Inspector General's office and learned from their playbook. The 
online form that the agency helped us develop was right out of 
their playbook.
    I will say some of the other efforts they have done, which 
I do not want to reveal, worked for them, but the scammers are 
very inventive, and the minute something works, they change, 
and it is sort of playing catch-up a lot, so what worked then, 
it may not work again today, and so we are trying to always 
stay ahead of it, but it is difficult.
    Senator Hawley. Very good. Thank you.
    Ms. Ennis, while I have you, let me ask you a couple of 
questions. Let me go back to the subject of telecoms, which 
Senator Collins raised, which I thought was such an important 
topic. Is there more that we need to do, Congress needs to do, 
in order to enable partnerships, productive partnerships with 
the telecoms? They seem so vital to this.
    Ms. Ennis. Well, I do know--if you look at the complaints 
yesterday, the telecoms--besides what I talked about with the 
major telecoms, what they were also helpful with was some of 
the major ones put on notice that the companies that were the 
subject of the complaints yesterday, looking at the traffic and 
noticing certain patterns in the traffic and put them on 
notice. They should continue and hopefully will continue to do 
that because notice is a helpful thing from a legal perspective 
when companies do receive notice. Then they cannot say, ``We 
did not know.'' They have been helpful in that regard too.
    I am not an expert in the law related to telecoms, but I 
will say something, I think, to hold the gateways accountable 
would be something that we would look to that they should know 
their customer. Call duration and hang-ups in huge volume, like 
we have seen with this, you will see in the complaints, is a 
huge red flag. They have to be charged with looking at the red 
flags and knowing who is behind that, and instead, it seems as 
though they are able to turn a blind eye. I would hope that you 
could look at that, and we will be happy to provide any 
information we can, should you be able to do something in that 
regard.
    Senator Hawley. That is very helpful. We will followup with 
you about that.
    Let me ask you, finally, in my prior capacity as Attorney 
General of the State of Missouri, my office received numerous 
complaints about Social Security impersonation scams. I am just 
wondering to what extent the Social Security Administration has 
or is coordinating with State Attorneys General or other law 
enforcement officials.
    Ms. Ennis. Well, that is probably an area we should look 
into more, frankly. We have been partnering with other Federal 
partners, and there are many individual cases around the 
country where local law enforcement get involved or local State 
Attorneys Generals. We probably could do a better job at that, 
and thank you for identifying that as a place that we can 
partner up. We are always looking for partners, as I said, to 
extend our forces. We will look at that. Thank you.
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal?
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Madam Chair, and thank you for 
having this critical hearing. We all know from seniors how 
robocalls, spoofing, phishing, all of the techniques apply to 
so many other consumer areas also are used in this one, like 
Senator Hawley as a former Attorney General, protecting 
consumers, particularly seniors against these kinds of scams 
can be a life's work.
    I introduced Social Security 2100, which provides far-
reaching reforms, along with Senator Van Hollen and my 
colleague from Connecticut, John Larson. These kinds of reforms 
are absolutely necessary to make the cost-of-living adjustment 
formula realistic, so beneficiaries can actually get the 
benefits that are more comparable, the costs they face today 
and additional benefits for Medicaid and other programs are not 
held against them, and the bill would keep the program solvent 
through the end of the century, ensuring security for Americans 
to come.
    I have also included in this bill, measures to assure 
protection against these kinds of scams, and I think 
particularly in the area of enforcement with respect to laws on 
the books as well as new laws, enforcement is critical.
    Yesterday the Department of Justice, as I think may have 
been raised already, in conjunction with the Social Security 
Administration, the United States Postal Service, and others, 
announced their first enforcement action against 
telecommunications companies operating in New York and Arizona 
who were facilitating robocalls in India. The Department of 
Justice is attempting to block these telecom companies from 
making or facilitating future calls.
    I wonder if each of you could comments on the efficacy of 
current enforcement and what needs to be done to improve it.
    Ms. Ennis. Thank you, Senator.
    I think right now, yesterday, there were several actions. 
We still have ongoing investigative work in conjunction with 
our Federal partners, so we are hopeful that there will be more 
coming down the pike.
    As I have talked about the gateway carriers, though, I 
think there is room to do something legally there, whether it 
is legislatively or otherwise, because they tend to have 
ignored, turned a blind eye to what was obvious when looking at 
traffic patterns, so I think there is a gap there.
    I think the TRACED Act and all of the proposed legislation 
that is out there, all will help move the ball forward in 
trying to combat these scams, but at the end of the day, it is 
still about educating and public awareness because, as I have 
said, the scammers are very creative, and the minute we plug 
one hole, frankly, they will find another one. While all 
efforts that you can make will be welcomed by us and our 
Federal law enforcement partners and State and local as well, 
the best thing for us to do is to educate the public.
    Better coordination among Federal agencies is what has 
happened to allow what happened yesterday to occur, and 
anything that we can do to facilitate that is also very 
helpful. It is a force multiplier for a small agency like mine, 
and there is expertise within the Federal Government, and it 
brings all that attention to these issues, and that is a 
wonderful thing as well.
    Mr. Saul. Just following up on that, the education part of 
this and the outreach is probably the most important and 
effective way to bring this terrible problem under control.
    I have outlined in my report, which you have a copy of, the 
efforts that we have taken here, and we have attacked just 
about, I think at this point, pretty much every media, social 
media, into that, whatever we can do to get our message out to 
our people, to our customers. That is my responsibility as the 
Commissioner to be sure that we have turned every rock over, to 
be sure that we are effectively communicating with our 
customer.
    I think if you look at the program, which we did not have, 
Senator, in the beginning, over the last 6 months, I think we 
have vastly improved our outreach. Any comments, of course, we 
would like to hear, but I think over the next months as this 
rolls out even further, we are on the right track now of really 
educating our customers.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you both for your testimony. My 
time has expired, but I think really a full-court press on 
increasing the resources for enforcement is vital because we 
all know the best laws on the books are a dead letter if they 
are not enforced. Thank you both for your service.
    Thanks.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Sinema, welcome.
    Senator Sinema. Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Casey, 
thank you for today's hearing on protecting seniors from 
criminal fraudsters who impersonate the Social Security 
Administration.
    When I was a member of the House, I was proud to have 
worked with Chairman Collins to pass the Senior Safe Act into 
law. It empowered financial institutions to report suspected 
instances of elder financial abuse, and this Congress, together 
we have introduced the Senior Security Act to create a task 
force at the Securities and Exchange Commission to protect 
seniors from financial crimes.
    Soon I will be introducing the Improving Social Security's 
Service to Victims of Identity Theft Act, a companion to the 
bipartisan House bill introduced by Representatives John Larson 
of Connecticut and Tom Reed of New York. This bill will provide 
identity theft victims with a single point of contact within 
the Social Security Administration when a fraudster steals and 
misuses their Social Security number.
    Rather than ask victims to retell their traumatic story to 
multiple employees, this assigned individual will be their 
trusted navigator across different functions within Social 
Security to ensure they are not fighting these battles alone, 
and I look forward to working with the Social Security 
Administration on this effort.
    My first question is for Commissioner Saul, but I would 
welcome additional thoughts from Inspector General Ennis, if 
you have anything to add.
    I wanted to share this story of a constituent of mine, Liz, 
who lives in Mesa, Arizona. In a single day, she received over 
a dozen unsolicited phone calls and threatening messages 
falsely claiming her Social Security number had been 
compromised and suspended. The criminals sought to scare Liz 
into divulging her bank account information. Luckily, she 
recognized this was a scam, but she is sharing her story 
because she is worried that not everyone would recognize it.
    Identity theft and scams can be devastating, which is why I 
have previously worked with Senator Tim Scott on the Protecting 
Children from Identity Theft Act and with the Social Security 
Administration to help families whose children's Social 
Security numbers had been compromised, back when I was Member 
of the House.
    In cases where people have been scammed, on their ways to 
help them financially recover, to secure their identities after 
their personally identifiable information has been compromised, 
and if not, what barriers prevent people from getting some of 
their life savings back or being able to secure their 
identities again?
    Mr. Saul. Senator, we are obviously facing a really serious 
problem here, and I do not think there is a really simple 
answer.
    I know it would be easy to say, ``Here is what we are going 
to do, and we are going to make everybody whole and do 
everything,'' but it is not realistic.
    Again, I go back to the education process, which I know it 
sounds very simplistic, but I do believe in the end to make our 
customer and our beneficiaries aware of what is going on is 
really going to do the most for identity theft and all the 
terrible issues you have brought up.
    I want to tell you one thing, though. One of our major 
efforts that is under way right now is individual identity 
recognition. We have to do a much better job in affording our 
customers the ability to have identity recognition, and it is 
something we are working on. It is not easy because of all the 
legal restrictions we have, but over the next year or two, I do 
believe you are going to see individual identity recognition 
rolled out in our agency in a very, very efficient manner.
    We are right in the midst of working on it, and it is very 
exciting. I think that will also help tremendously in the 
issues that you have raised, so we are very aware of it. We are 
going to be putting a tremendous amount of resources into 
developing the proper individual recognition systems.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you.
    Ms. Ennis. To follow on that, I think the ubiquitousness of 
the use of the Social Security number as a form of identity in 
every element of your life--I know we are trying to change 
that. The faster we can change that, the better we will be off 
for everybody. That number should not be used as a form of 
identification.
    When I was in college, I remember you used to print it on 
the face of your check, so we have changed. We have gotten 
better about that, but we really still use it every day you 
transact in your life when someone is asking for your Social or 
last four digits, so that would go a long way, I think.
    Restitution will play it out. You know, if we are able to 
do things investigatively and with enforcement efforts, of 
course, we can seek restitution from bad actors.
    If there were civil forfeiture for agencies where fraud is 
the crime, we could look to have a victims fund to, hopefully, 
try to restore some of those funds. Those are some of the 
things we talk about from an enforcement perspective.
    Senator Sinema. Thank you so much.
    Chairman, thank you for hosting this important discussion 
today. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    Senator Gillibrand?
    Senator Gillibrand. I just want to thank the Chairwoman and 
the Ranking Member for this hearing. We have been tackling this 
issue in New York State constantly. I cannot tell you how many 
scams, how many seniors are robbed of all of their savings, of 
everything they have left, devastating their families, and I 
have talked to law enforcement and I have talked to our Federal 
agencies. No matter how many reforms they put in place, the 
problem continues to rise.
    We now have international networks coming from Russia, 
coming from Europe, coming from all over the globe trying to 
attack our seniors because they have a lot of wealth. I think 
seniors have over a trillion dollars in savings, so it is just 
a great source of money for them to scam out of Americans.
    Mr. Saul, just a couple questions. What have you seen? What 
successes have you seen in combating scams, fraud, and 
financial abuse of older adults? What are the biggest 
challenges you face right now, and would better coordination 
between agencies in the development and implementation of new 
educational standards help? That is something that Senator 
Collins and I are working on right now.
    Mr. Saul. I think we need all the help we can get to 
educate our customer and to educate the American public, so 
whatever you all can do, I am all for it.
    As I said in my statement--and we have talked about this, 
this morning--we have rolled out, I think, a pretty 
comprehensive program of educating our customer and our 
beneficiary through the help of a lot of media, a lot of 
outside organizations, plus our own internal communications. It 
is never enough. I mean, whatever help we can get, it is a 
continuing process.
    We are in the initial phases, I believe, of educating our 
people. In my statement, you will see where we have outlined 
pretty extensive detail, our current efforts. I would 
appreciate any comments, any Senator, of course, has or any of 
the staff, but I do think at this point, it is a matter of time 
now to roll out the initiatives that we have begun. I do think 
they will make a big difference in educating the American 
public.
    Senator Gillibrand. Thank you.
    I want to talk to you about a broader issue, since we have 
you, about cutting Social Security benefits. I had the pleasure 
of traveling all across the country, because I was running for 
President for about 8 months, and I got to talk to people in 
Iowa. I got to talk to people in New Hampshire and Michigan and 
Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, and I can tell you, they believe 
that Social Security is vital to their life-and-death survival.
    I saw the need for both our seniors and for people with 
disabilities, and I would really like to work with the 
Committee and you on ways we can shore up Social Security.
    I was very worried when I heard from President Trump that 
he was thinking about cutting Social Security and other safety 
net benefits. That was shocking to me, given all of the things 
I have heard across the country.
    I was also interested in assessing how we can help people 
with disabilities, and this might be a subject for a hearing, 
particularly the caregivers. I was wondering, have you ever 
investigated whether or not you think it would be an 
appropriate benefit to get the minimal benefits for Social 
Security and people with disabilities up to about on average 
$1,500 a month? Second, would you consider ever allowing Social 
Security benefits for full-time caregivers?
    Mr. Saul. I think that I take my responsibility as awesome. 
The Social Security Administration really affects more people 
in this country than anything, ex the military. I always say 
that. It is the most important thing there.
    We support almost 100 million people every single month, 
and some of these people depend on this to buy groceries, as 
you say.
    Senator Gillibrand. Everything.
    Mr. Saul. Right. Half the people that receive old age 
survivor's benefits have virtually no other savings, no other 
income, and without this support, they would be finished. They 
would be really in serious trouble. I want to assure you I take 
this responsibility very seriously.
    I feel we need to do everything we can to shore up the 
Social Security system. I leave that to you guys. I mean, it is 
legislative responsibility, and I really mean that.
    My job here is to be sure that with the resources that we 
have, we deliver them in the most cost-effective, best way we 
possibly can. I am here to serve the beneficiaries and our 
customers. Since I have been here in June, that is our mojo. 
That is our motto. Every decision we make is to serve the 
beneficiaries, and I really mean that.
    Senator Gillibrand. Thank you for your service, and thank 
you for your testimony.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Rosen?
    Senator Rosen. Well, good morning. Thank you for being 
here. Thank you, Senator Collins, Senator Casey, for holding 
this hearing.
    It is pretty funny. I want to say it is funny in a ha-ha 
way, but the topic at hand, I will tell you just a couple 
months ago, I was on the Senate floor. I walked into the cloak 
room to answer a call that I thought was from a number that I 
knew, and sure enough, I am a Senator in the Senate cloak room 
getting told that my Social Security number is suddenly being 
deactivated, whatever the language that they are using. I think 
that was the week that we passed the robocalls or introduced 
that. It is pretty ironic that even Senators get these calls 
when we are here doing this. We could be having them on our 
phones as we speak. Of course, I am by no means the only 
Nevadan, the only person in the country targeted by these, and 
Nevada, unfortunately, has the most cases, most reported cases 
of fraud per capita, about $15 million in losses a year, and 
the fifth most cases of identity theft--Senator Sinema was 
talking about--with over 7,500 cases reported last year.
    You just mentioned you touch 100 million people every 
month, and so as a former systems analyst, I was thinking about 
how we could plug in. This is kind of a two-part question for 
both of you.
    We have some existing infrastructure--our banks, our credit 
card companies. I wrote some of those programs, robust fraud 
programs. How could we take the statistics that we know on 
this, plug into their existing infrastructure to warn, 
identify, let people know?
    Second, we know that seniors probably get most of their 
bills, I would suspect, in the mail. They are utility bills, 
okay? Every month, you get an electric bill, and there are ways 
to put little fliers, things in there that are instructive that 
a senior who may not be using the internet may not be capable 
because of age or disability, but everyone is usually paying an 
electric bill, I would say, water bill, gas bill, whatever, 
public utility bill. Are there some ways in our national 
infrastructure that we can connect with this nearly 100 million 
people every month that you are touching already?
    Mr. Saul. I want to assure you that we are in constant 
communication with our beneficiaries.
    For example, we just came up--as far as the scam and the 
fraud which I outlined in my initial remarks, we came up with a 
way that all our mailers now on the outside of the envelope, 
just something you are referring to, is going to have the scam 
message printed, affixed to the outside of the envelope.
    When you get a normal statement, COLA statement, something 
like that, you are going to get a scam notice because when you 
go to open up the envelope, right smack in your face is going 
to be our scam notice, ``Beware''----
    Senator Rosen. Right, but maybe there is other partners----
    Mr. Saul. I am sorry?
    Senator Rosen [continuing]. other family members out there, 
partners in the community that would be helpful to use this 
too.
    Mr. Saul. Whatever we can do. Look, this is an ongoing 
thing, but we are coming up constantly with new ways to be able 
to communicate with our customers.
    As far as using the banking system and the other private-
sector corporations, we have an act that we are partnering with 
all the financial--not all, but the financial institutions and 
banks, as we speak. We are rolling it out in June----
    Senator Rosen. Fantastic.
    Mr. Saul [continuing]. where we are going to verify the 
Social Security identity numbers for the institution. If 
somebody comes in applying for credit using a Social Security 
number, we will verify for that institution that they are 
legitimate, so, yes, we are working.
    Senator Rosen. That is fantastic.
    Mr. Saul. As a matter of fact, this is a major roll-out 
force that has been done with consultation with legislation and 
consultation and participation by the financial industry. Those 
banks are actually paying for the technology to support this 
endeavor.
    Senator Rosen. That is a great idea to think of ways we can 
partner and streamline.
    Mr. Saul. There is a lot of things happening. I do not know 
if you were here when I spoke initially. Individual identity is 
going to be one of the most important technological things that 
you are going to see come out of the Social Security 
Administration in the next 2 years. We are going to be spending 
a fortune on this to develop a really proper individual 
identity.
    It looks like it is going to be through the use of driver's 
licenses. We will hear more and you will hear more about this 
over the next 6 months to 9 months as we roll this out, but it 
is one of my priorities, so there is a lot going on in this 
area. You are absolutely right to bring it up, Senator.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you. I think I am out of time, unless 
you want to let her answer.
    Ms. Ennis. We are just partnering with the United States 
Postal Inspection Services for a co-branded poster that is 
going to go in post offices around the country to warn about 
scams generally, and we have reached out to other retail 
partners, but to your suggestion, there are probably other 
utilities and other infrastructures that we can continue to 
reach out to. Again, it is about resources to try to do that, 
but we are working that way with retail banks, financial 
institutions, and with educational materials as well.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    I want to thank our panel of witnesses--the Commission, the 
Inspector General--for all the work that you are doing and for 
sharing with us your ideas. We look forward to continuing to 
have a close partnership so that we can put an end to this 
pernicious scam that is costing so many of our vulnerable 
seniors literally their life savings. I thank you for your 
commitment, for the actions that you have taken and for being 
with us this morning.
    I would now like to call forth our second panel of 
witnesses. First, we will hear from Machel Andersen, who joins 
us from Ogden, Utah. Ms. Andersen has courageously agreed to 
testify today about her personal experience with the Social 
Security scam. She is accompanied by her husband, Utah State 
Representative Kyle Andersen.
    The second witness that we will hear today is from the 
great State of Maine, Justin Groshon. Mr. Groshon manages the 
Social Security field office in Saco, Maine, and will testify 
today on behalf of the National Council of Social Security 
Management Associations, which represent Social Security field 
office managers throughout the country. He has served the 
Social Security Administration since 2004 and has managed the 
Saco field office since 2011. We are very grateful for your 
service and for your being here with us today, Justin.
    Finally, I will turn to our Ranking Member to introduce our 
witness from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
    Senator Casey. Thank you, Chairman Collins.
    I am pleased to introduce a good friend of mine, Nora Dowd 
Eisenhower, who is also a great friend to seniors in 
Pennsylvania. She comes from southeastern Pennsylvania. I come 
from the northeast, about 2 hours north, but I have known Nora 
for many years, and for more than just a few years, she has 
been working on aging policy. She currently serves as the 
executive director of the Mayor's Commission on Aging in the 
city of Philadelphia. Previously, she served as assistant 
director for the Office of Older Americans at the U.S. Consumer 
Financial Protection Bureau and was the Secretary of the 
Pennsylvania Department of Aging.
    Nora brings a wealth of experience to her testimony before 
this Committee, and I have known both Nora and her husband, 
Jim, for many years. I am grateful they are here--she is here 
today.
    Nora, thanks for appearing.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Ms. Andersen, thank you so much for being here today.

          STATEMENT OF MACHEL ANDERSEN, VICTIM OF THE 
        SOCIAL SECURITY IMPERSONATION SCAM, OGDEN, UTAH

    Ms. Andersen. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Casey, and 
distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to tell you how international criminals used the 
Social Security scam to steal $150,000 from me and my husband, 
money we had worked our entire lives to save.
    This terrible story began on Friday, December 6th. I was 
busy and distracted that day because one of my daughters had 
just had surgery, and I needed to help with the grandkids. At 
some point, I noticed I had missed three automated voice-mails 
from what appeared to be the Social Security Administration 
with messages telling me that my Social Security number had 
been compromised.
    When I called back, a man who claimed to be Joseph Gangloff 
answered. He told me he was with the Social Security 
Administration. He gave me his badge number, and he told me 
that I was to look him up online. I would find out he was the 
Chief Counsel to the Social Security Administration. Then he 
told me some bad news. A car registered in my name was found 
with blood all over it at a crime scene near the Mexican 
border. Worse, he said that my Social Security number had been 
used to set up multiple bank accounts associated with a drug 
cartel, and he then transferred me to someone who claimed to be 
a DEA investigator named Uttam Dhillon.
    This man told me that my family was in danger, that my 
Social Security number was being used by a very powerful drug 
cartel, and that they would be watching my every move. He said 
that any accounts associated with my Social Security number 
would be seized as part of the DEA investigation, and that to 
protect our money, I would need to transfer all of it to a safe 
offshore account. He said that if I cooperated, I would receive 
a new Social Security number and get all of our money back, but 
if I did not, I could be suspected of working with the cartel. 
He insisted that I act normal and not tell anyone, and he 
reminded me that both the bad guys and the Government were 
watching everything I was doing.
    By the time I arrived at the credit union, it was too late 
in the day to send transfers overseas, but I was able to 
combine all our resources into one account. That weekend, I 
called the scammer back to see if there was some other way to 
handle the situation. He said the only other option was my 
arrest.
    Monday morning, I went to the other financial institutions 
where we had accounts to transfer all our money to Hong Kong. 
The scammer insisted that I keep him on speakerphone the entire 
time. I was in the credit union, so I put the phone in my 
purse. When the clerk asked why I was sending so much money 
overseas, I said that it was for electronics, just like the 
scammer told me. That was the only question I was asked.
    Ultimately, I sent $154,646 in two transfer to Hong Kong. 
In hindsight, I realize there were many signs that I should 
have recognized indicating that I was being scammed, but the 
scammers had me so worked up. They told me that I had to be 
convincing or I would end up getting arrested. They even sent 
me fake arrest warrants.
    I also wonder why my financial institution did not ask more 
questions when a longtime customer who had never executed a 
wire transfer suddenly cashed CDs for which penalties were 
charged, deposited large amounts of money from other 
institutions, and transferred almost every dollar she has in 
that institution to a bank in China to buy electronics.
    Having our life savings stolen has made me realize there 
are some very bad people in this world, but losing this money 
has also reminded me that my life is rich in many ways. I live 
a wonderful life in a wonderful place. I have a great husband 
and great family. I am truly blessed.
    Maybe hearing my story will help protect some other family 
that would have had a harder time recovering from something 
like this. Maybe my story will help these scammers stop, once 
and for all. I hope so.
    Thank you for allowing me to tell my story here today.
    The Chairman. Ms. Andersen, before we go on to the next 
witness, I want to thank you for your courage for coming 
forward and publicly describing what happened to you, and I can 
assure you that you personally are going to be responsible for 
many other people not getting scammed because they will 
recognize the signs due to your courageous testimony.
    I know it took a lot to come forward and tell what happened 
to you, but you have done such a public service. You will save 
so many other people from going through the terrible scam that 
robbed you of over $154,000. I just wanted to thank you before 
we moved on.
    Ms. Andersen. Thank you, Chairman Collins. I hope so.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Mr. Groshon, welcome.

             STATEMENT OF JUSTIN GROSHON, MANAGER,

           SACO SOCIAL SECURITY OFFICE, SACO, MAINE,

          APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL COUNSEL

           OF SOCIAL SECURITY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATIONS

    Mr. Groshon. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Casey, and 
members of the Committee, my name is Justin Groshon, and I am 
the district manager of the Saco, Maine, Social Security 
office. I am also the president of the New England Social 
Security Management Association and an executive committee 
member for the National Council of Social Security Management 
Associations.
    On behalf of the National Council and my colleagues back 
home in Maine, thank you for the opportunity to be here today 
to discuss Social Security impersonation scams.
    In October 2019, our National Council conducted a survey on 
the various SSA impersonation scams and the impact on Social 
Security field offices and teleservice centers nationwide. We 
received responses from over 500 managers and supervisors on 
the impact to their respective offices. Over 97 percent 
responded that their office had received reports from the 
public about callers impersonating a Social Security employee. 
Of those, almost 70 percent reported that this was a daily 
occurrence, with 50 percent reporting as many as 15 contacts 
per day.
    In my home State of Maine, all of our field offices have 
been impacted by SSA impersonation scams. Every day, our 
offices assist callers and visitors reporting Social Security 
scams. In many instances, the impersonators appear legitimate 
to their victims as they spoof or mask the phone number they 
are calling from with an actual Social Security field office 
phone number.
    After receiving the impersonation call, a large number of 
people contact our offices in an attempt to verify the 
authenticity of the call. In some instances, this leads to 
increased call volumes of 400 percent to 1,000 percent. The 
increased call volumes prevent our agency from being able to 
conduct legitimate business with those seeking our core 
services.
    For one Maine office, this increased call volume lasted 
almost 22 days. Ultimately, that office was forced to change 
its phone number.
    Consistent with information shared by the Social Security 
Administration's Office of the Inspector General, the people 
contacting our offices indicate that the impersonators threaten 
them with legal action, fines, arrest, or make promises for 
increased benefits.
    There are other ways the scammers have impacted our ability 
to serve the public. Several offices have reported receiving 
automated robocalls to their phone lines inundating their phone 
system with threatening messages similar to those received by 
our customers.
    In one day alone, an office received almost 2,000 automated 
calls to the Office General Inquiry phone line, and during that 
time, the office was unable to serve its actual customers by 
phone.
    In my own office, the General Inquiry telephone line, the 
number I rely on to serve the public was used in automated call 
scams. These scams occurred on three separate occasions, each 
lasting 3 days. This significantly reduced our ability to serve 
the public and degraded the services to the residents of York 
County, Maine.
    Today we have heard from an individual directly impacted by 
these scams. Her story should not be considered an isolated 
incident. It has become an unfortunate reality for our field 
office employees to hear from new victims each week. Their 
stories have become all too common.
    These rampant fraud schemes are not isolated to Maine. They 
are prevalent throughout the United States, and our colleagues 
from all 50 States have experienced similar issues. Managers 
and supervisors in offices across the Nation have expressed the 
same concerns as my colleagues back home.
    It is important to note some of the feedback our managers 
provided describing additional implications of Social Security 
impersonation scams. First, employees conducting legitimate 
Social Security business have been met with suspicious leading 
to repeated telephone calls, the need for members of the public 
to visit our office, and delays in processing claims in other 
post-entitlement work.
    Second, some customers are convinced that Social Security 
employee are behind the scam calls and, thus, view our staff 
with distrust. This further erodes the confidence the American 
public has in our agency and the Federal Government as a whole. 
That said, our employees will continue to do their best to 
assist our customers with questions and concerns related to the 
scam calls.
    On behalf of the National Council, thank you for the 
opportunity to be here today. We want to ensure that Maine 
residents and the American public have faith and trust in the 
Social Security Administration and that they are reassured that 
they will not fall victim to those trying to impersonate SSA 
employees.
    We respectfully ask that you consider our comments and 
appreciate any assistance you can provide in ensuring the 
residents of Maine and the rest of the American public receive 
the critical and necessary service they deserve from the Social 
Security Administration without fear of compromising their 
information.
    We greatly appreciate the Committee's focus on these very 
important issues, and I will be happy to answer any questions 
you may have at that time.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Dowd Eisenhower?

               STATEMENT OF NORA DOWD EISENHOWER,

             EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MAYOR'S COMMISSION

              ON AGING, PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA

    Ms. Dowd Eisenhower. Good morning, Senators, and a special 
thank you to Senator Casey for inviting me to speak today.
    As a government official and public interest attorney who 
has advocated for older Americans for more than 30 years, I am 
pleased to present today some ideas for reducing the 
vulnerability of older Americans to the Social Security 
impersonation scam.
    I am a proud Philadelphian and appreciate Mayor Jim 
Kenney's leadership in improving economic opportunities and 
public safety for all Philadelphians. Senator Casey and Senator 
Collins and this Committee continue to shine a light on the 
critical needs of older people in our country. We are proud to 
have Senator Casey represent us in Washington on this important 
Committee.
    I am the executive director of the Mayor's Commission on 
Aging in Philadelphia, where almost 295,000 older adults live 
and work. Locally, nationally, and globally, people are living 
longer. The longevity bonus demands a new approach to our way 
of thinking.
    Philadelphia seniors are a diverse and culturally vibrant 
part of our neighborhoods, and many live with family and loved 
ones in multigenerational settings. However, nearly one in 
four, or 24 percent of older Philadelphians, living alone see 
friends or relatives less than once a week. This can lead to 
isolation and vulnerability and should be considered when 
developing interventions to help protect them against fraud.
    Philadelphia is also home to the largest percentage of 
seniors and poorest overall population in the top 10 cities in 
the country.
    I am not going to go into the Social Security scam again. I 
think we have it down. I think we realize that it is the latest 
variation on telemarketing fraud that we have all been working 
to prevent for many, many years, but I think that we need to 
look at some of the solutions that have worked and in fact even 
look at the change in scams in the top 10 from the IRS scam to 
being No. 1, to the Social Security scam being No. 1 as a 
success story of sorts.
    Many people now know that those IRS calls that have been 
coming in for years are phony. The same has not reached people 
about the Social Security scam, and in fact, I did not hear of 
it until I got a call from a Senator Casey staffer asking me to 
come and speak to this Committee. Of course, I did a little 
research, but I was not hearing about it on the ground in 
Philadelphia, where we run programs to support older 
Philadelphians in partnership with the Philadelphia Corporation 
for Aging.
    We just went through the open enrollment season for 
Medicare where APPRISE counselors are talking to older 
Philadelphians every day about Medicare and what to choose, and 
often Social Security comes up.
    I think while that was a missed opportunity, we certainly 
will be looking at the Social Security scam, looking at the 
materials, especially those materials created in partnership 
with the Federal Trade Commission, the Social Security 
Administration, and my former agency, the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau. They have already created an excellent 
piece. It is a one-pager. It is similar, Senator Casey, to what 
is in the back of your most recent report on fighting frauds. 
It is brief, it is concise, and it is really helpful. Now we 
need to get the word out.
    I will recommend, though, also that we pass the Stop Senior 
Scams Act sponsored by the Aging Committee, sponsored by the 
Committee's Ranking Member Senator Casey and the Commerce 
Subcommittee on Manufacturing, Trade, and Consumer Protection, 
Chairman Jerry Moran.
    The act recommends that an advisory council be created, 
that it collect and develop model educational materials for 
retailers, financial institutions, banks and credit unions, and 
wire transfer companies to share with their employees. 
Employees are often the front line, as we have heard from Ms. 
Andersen, that last moment in time when we could prevent that 
money from going abroad, never to be returned in many 
instances.
    We can examine the ways these businesses can use their 
platforms to educate the public on scams. We can provide 
additional helpful information to retailers, financial 
institutions, and wire transfer companies as they work to 
prevent fraud affecting older adults. They need this 
information.
    We can publicly report information about the newly created 
models as well as recommendations and findings of the advisory 
council.
    I will say also we should look to successful models that 
are already out there. The CFPB created Money Smart for Older 
Adults in recognition of the reality that older adults have 
been and continue to be prime targets for fraudsters. Money 
Smart for Older Adults Version 2.0 is also available in 
Spanish. It raises the awareness of many common frauds and 
scams, and that is important because the scam today is Social 
Security, which is a terrible thing, but next year it might be 
something else and the following year something else again.
    We need to have a mechanism in place to educate people 
about those scams as they are changing, faster than the 
fraudsters can change them. Outreach and education that the 
Federal Government is already funding, called Senior Medicare 
Fraud Patrols, are currently conducted in every State and could 
be replicated with a focus on Social Security scams. This will 
take resources. The SMP program model is one of prevention. 
SMPs have empowered Medicare beneficiaries since 1997 to 
scrutinize their medical bills and statements. The OIG reports 
that expected recoveries to Medicare and Medicaid attributable 
to the projects from 1997 through 2018 were over $100 million. 
Total savings to beneficiaries and others were approximately $7 
million, but that is an undercount, I am sure.
    I am grateful for your attention to this matter, and I 
thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about it. Other 
opportunities could exist with Meals on Wheels and area 
agencies on aging that are already communicating with older 
Americans, especially shut-ins.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for your testimony and 
your recommendations.
    Ms. Andersen, in your written testimony, you mention that 
the criminals also tried, after they had received all of your 
life savings, to get you to remortgage your house. Could you 
tell us a little bit about that?
    Ms. Andersen. Yes. They called and asked if I had a 
mortgage on my home, and I said, ``No. Our home is paid for. We 
have no mortgage,'' and he said, ``That is what I was afraid 
of. We have got to secure your home before the seizure. We are 
going to need you to come up with 45 percent of the value of 
your home. What do you think your home is worth?'' and I told 
him, and then he said, ``That means you are going to have to 
come up with about $200,000, and you are going to have to get a 
mortgage.'' I said, ``I cannot get a mortgage without my 
husband. In fact, I was so weary of all these calls and stuff 
that I began to laugh. I said, ``That is really funny. I cannot 
do that,'' and he said, ``Then you are going to have to find 
someone who can give you that money, or you will lose your 
home.'' I kind of just put it away because I was with the 
grandchildren. I was picking up one of them from preschool. I 
went about my day. He called again. I said, ``You are going to 
have to seize my home. I do not have that kind of money. I do 
not know anyone who does,'' and he said, ``No. You have got to 
start calling people. You will lose your home, and this is a 
serious threat.'' I thought I was talking to a DEA agent at the 
time. I said, ``Okay.'' I hung up the phone. I called our best 
friend who I thought maybe would have that kind of money, and 
he said, ``I do not have anything liquid right now. I am so 
sorry,'' and then called me back a few hours later and said, 
``I can get you $60,000 today. I can get you the other 140 on 
Monday.'' and I said, ``Thank you.'' I had told him, ``I cannot 
tell you what it is for. My husband cannot know. Your wife 
cannot know,'' and he was still willing to loan me that money. 
I am so grateful that I came to my senses and was able to look 
some of this up online before I went any further.
    The Chairman. Did he ask you whether you might be being 
scammed?
    Ms. Andersen. My friend did. He said, ``Machel, are you 
sure you are not being scammed?'' and I said, ``I am sure I am 
not. I am not being scammed.''
    The Chairman. Was that because you thought you were dealing 
with a DEA agent, with the Social Security Administration, with 
trusted Federal agencies?
    Ms. Andersen. Yes.
    The Chairman. What do you think would have been helpful in 
stopping you right from the beginning?
    Now, you were in a very stressful situation. Your daughter 
had had surgery. You were taking care of your young 
grandchildren. You had a lot going on in your life personally 
that was causing stress, but tell me what you think would have 
been most helpful. I know that at the credit union, they asked 
one question, and we passed a law that I wrote with Claire 
McCaskill--and Senator Sinema was helpful in the House--to give 
immunity to banks and credit unions so that they can ask those 
kinds of questions and not violate bank privacy laws. Do you 
think further questions would have been helpful? What do you 
think would have alerted you?
    Ms. Andersen. I do. I think that is the front line is the 
banks and the credit unions for that.
    We have talked about it since. There were many signs that I 
was being scammed that in hindsight I can see now, but the bank 
would have been the front line for me because I watch very, 
very little TV. I very rarely listen to the radio. Maybe it 
sounds like I live under a rock. I do not know, but that is not 
part of my day.
    The Chairman. You have a busy life.
    Ms. Andersen. Yes, yes.
    The Chairman. I think all of us might be better off not 
watching television these days. That is a joke for all the news 
media here today.
    Ms. Andersen. Yes. If I had been asked more questions at 
the bank, I think that would have helped.
    The Chairman. That is helpful to know because getting the 
word out is so important.
    Mr. Groshon, you have given us a whole different picture 
today and a really important one. You mentioned that every 
single field office in Maine has had to deal with a flood of 
these calls, with spoof numbers. How many field offices do we 
have in Maine? Do you know off the top of your head?
    Mr. Groshon. I believe it is eight. Yes, we have eight 
offices.
    The Chairman. It sounds like this was overwhelming their 
ability to carry out their day-to-day business, so enrolling 
people in Social Security, giving them advice, making sure they 
have the forms for Medicare. Is that accurate?
    Mr. Groshon. That is correct. We--yes. I am sorry.
    The Chairman. No, go ahead.
    Mr. Groshon. It was to different degrees to different 
offices. I can certainly speak to Saco, Portland, Auburn had 
the most catastrophic of those instances that we described of 
spoof numbers where our numbers were used on the Caller IDs for 
individuals. When they returned phone calls, for all intents 
and purposes, it inundated the phone system, rendered them 
almost useful for the day as far as serving our actual 
customers in our local service areas.
    The Chairman. You mentioned another fact which I think is 
really important is that this scam not only has hurt so many 
people nationwide, but it has eroded trust in Federal employees 
and those who are working so hard to serve the public. Could 
you talk a little bit about that as well?
    Mr. Groshon. Absolutely. There is a few different ways. I 
talked about delays in processing claims, and I think one good 
example is we are trying to get individuals that are capable of 
doing so to file certain claims online. Those claims sometimes 
require us to followup with them to just clarify some question 
or answer that they provided, and in many of those instances 
where we reach out to them by phone, they do not believe that 
it is actually us calling, even though they had just filed an 
application online the day before. Oftentimes that requires an 
in-person visit.
    I will speak to, I guess, Maine or really anywhere that has 
large geographic areas or large service areas for our field 
offices. That can mean somebody is driving upwards of an hour, 
in the northern half of the State over 2 hours to their local 
field office to have an in-person interview that really was not 
necessary should we not have this other factor of the potential 
for a scam call, so that certainly is one way that that 
distrust is exhibited for us in trying to conduct actual 
business.
    There are times when people mail us paperwork that needs a 
couple of questions answered, and again, we make phone calls. 
Even though we just received paperwork from this individual--
they know they sent us something--they still do not believe 
that we are who we say we are, and that is a challenge.
    Unfortunately for us, in order to identify you over the 
phone so that we can disclose certain pieces of information to 
you, we are going to ask you six what should be very private 
questions to you so that we can make sure that we are not 
disclosing information to somebody else, and obviously, that 
creates just a cataclysmic problem of we need to ask them 
certain questions, but they do not believe who we are and that 
leads to just extraneous contacts.
    The Chairman. I think you have brought up a very good point 
that has not been discussed before, but think about it. If you 
see on your Caller ID that it is Social Security Administration 
calling and then the person is asking you for personal 
information, how is the average person--how is anyone going to 
be able to distinguish between whether this is a scam call 
versus a legitimate call from Social Security following up on a 
claim that has been filed?
    Mr. Groshon. That is a great question, and I can tell you 
as somebody who has received these calls myself--and somebody, 
again, working in the agency, sometimes I can ask questions, or 
I have been known to call them back. I receive these calls 
often enough that I will call a phone number that does not lead 
to a field office and does lead to somebody pretending to be in 
a field office somewhere, and we can ask certain questions 
about what office are you in and what phone number should I 
call or who else works in that office or some other questions 
like that. Typically, if you ask enough questions, they will 
start to stutter, and so I think asking to call back, typically 
they do not have enough good answers.
    That is not to say, as was pointed out, the level of 
sophistication that the individuals have described for this 
problem is more than I would have ever anticipated or imagined. 
This is not somebody just calling you on their own from their 
basement. This is a very well-organized attempt to steal your 
personal information or finances.
    The Chairman. It is very sophisticated.
    I have gone way over my time, but I am just going to ask 
you one more question before yielding to Senator Casey. I 
apologize, but I know we are going to be wrapping up the 
hearing. My question is, when someone does contact the local 
field office or comes in who has been targeted by a scam, what 
steps do your employees go through to try to assist them?
    Mr. Groshon. Again, this is where I think the problem--it 
will depend on exactly what their allegation is, did they 
actually become a victim to some kind of financial 
exploitation, in which case we directly refer them to local law 
enforcement, and then we also make our own referral to the 
Office of the Inspector General so that they have enough 
information that they can start to work with and contact that 
individual directly themselves for an investigative piece.
    If it is just the case of losing personal information or 
identity information, we do make the referral to the 
individual, to the Federal Trade Commission, to the major 
credit bureaus to understand what things they can do to try to 
protect themselves, but at the end of the day, the fact that we 
use the Social Security number as a form of identity is a big 
problem, and unfortunately, a lot of those people come to us 
because they believe there is something we can do to help 
protect them, and there really is not a mechanism for us to do 
that at this point.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much. Senator Casey, my 
apologies for going over.
    Senator Casey. Chairman Collins, thanks very much. We could 
spend a lot more time. We all wish we could, but I am grateful 
for the questions you asked. I am going to be following up on 
the first line of questioning.
    I do want to start, though, with Ms. Andersen. I want to 
thank you for your testimony, your appearance here. As Senator 
Collins said, your example, your coming forward is going to 
help a lot more Americans and not just a few. Many.
    I think we have seen in recent American history where 
sometimes one brave citizen coming forward demonstrating 
uncommon courage can really change the way we approach a 
problem, the way others will be inspired to be more aware, more 
vigilant. I just cannot even imagine what you had to ensure.
    What jumped out of your testimony, I guess it was the third 
page of your testimony where you talk about your 7-month-old 
grandson with you in a car seat, and you had to haul the car 
seat into the credit unions. That kind of pressure and trauma, 
I think, demonstrated the kind of assault that you were 
enduring. We are grateful that you are willing to talk about 
it.
    Ms. Andersen. Thank you.
    Senator Casey. One point that you made in your testimony on 
that same page and in light of Senator Collins' question about 
the credit unions, the bill that Senator Moran and I have been 
working on got through his committee. It helps sometimes when 
the Committee chairman is working on a bill with you, but we 
are trying to get it through the whole Senate. One of the 
things we are trying to do there is to provide an opportunity 
for more training for those who work in credit unions, 
retailers, banks, and the like.
    I am assuming that part of the response to what you had to 
live through was that kind of legislation. There may be other 
ways that you can provide help, not just on a bill like that, 
but for other strategies as we go forward. I just want to 
commend and salute your work and taking the time to be here.
    Ms. Andersen. Thank you.
    Senator Casey. In light of that, I want to turn to Nora 
Dowd Eisenhower about the bill.
    Nora, in light of this testimony and also anything else 
that you want to add to the list or the itemization of the 
solutions in addition to the bill, my bill that you spoke 
about, anything else that you think we should be doing?
    One thing I broadly will say is we are trying to do 
everything we cannot to just simply focus on retribution, 
because if we do that all day long, we will not get to 
prevention and all of that.
    Wow. When I hear Ms. Andersen's story, you want to just 
seek vengeance, as we should. That is what law enforcement is 
for, partially, and sanctions. I hope that anyone who engages 
in this kind of conduct can go to prison for not years but 
decades. In addition to that, I hope that we can share some 
stories about what works, what does not work, and other 
solutions. If you are anyone else on the panel wants to speak 
to that before we wrap up?
    Ms. Dowd Eisenhower. I think aggressive enforcement is 
critically important. I think we all agree with that. It is 
hard to sit by and hear Ms. Andersen's story and not want to 
throttle someone. It is just terrible.
    We have been successful in the past working together across 
disciplines, in the public sector and the private sector, in 
educating people. 10,000 people a day turn 65 in this country 
and are relying on the Social Security Administration to help 
them through that process of do I claim for Social Security now 
or do I wait later. It is a critical time in our country.
    The fact that Social Security is now being used as the key 
imposter scam means we really have to pay attention to it. I 
know I will. I know I engage with older people across 
Philadelphia.
    We are at the Firehouse Senior Center recently in West 
Philadelphia. That is the vulnerable population that I am most 
concerned about. They rely on Social Security. Some may be 
isolated--and this term ``isolation,'' really not having 
engagement with the world as much as others do--and they may be 
even more vulnerable. I think it is something that we really 
need to work on.
    I really love what you are trying to do in the Stop Senior 
Scam Act because it brings people together. It helps us engage 
not just in education, but in education of the financial 
institutions.
    You and I know that that individual now who worked at that 
bank that Ms. Andersen went to is going to have that on their 
conscience. I am sure they know about it now. It is not good 
for the financial institutions either. They want to educate 
people; they want to stop scams. We really need to help them 
and provide them with that, and partnerships are a key way to 
do that.
    Senator Casey. Anyone else? I know we have to conclude.
    Mr. Groshon?
    Mr. Groshon. I think on behalf of the Management 
Association, we would agree that public awareness is critical 
to this, and anything that can be done is helpful, and I mean 
anything. There is still a number of people that just are not 
aware that this is going on.
    Thank you.
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
    Ms. Dowd Eisenhower. Thank you, Senators.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Casey.
    It is evident from hearing the two panels today and our 
excellent witnesses that combating these scams is going to take 
a coordinated all-hands-on-deck effort, and that is what we are 
committed to doing.
    We will, as I mentioned, be releasing our annual Fraud 
Book, and it has tips for seniors. Like Senator Casey, I try to 
get these into senior centers all over the State of Maine. Area 
agencies on aging are also helping distribute them, as is AARP.
    If we can heighten public awareness, we can prevent people 
from being victimized, but I do not think we should 
underestimate the ruthlessness, creativity, and pressure 
tactics that are used by these criminals. I call them 
``scammers'' I call them ``fraudsters'' but, in fact, they are 
criminals. They are stealing money and personal information, 
and that is just so troubling to me.
    This hearing is the 25th hearing that our Committee has 
held on scams that target seniors, and that ought to tell you 
about our commitment to stopping them. It also ought to tell 
you about the infinite variety and the persistence of criminals 
who perpetuate these scams.
    I am pleased to hear today that the Social Security 
Administration and the Inspector General are working with 
Government, with law enforcement, with industry partners, with 
consumer groups like AARP to raise public awareness and disrupt 
attempts that are in progress.
    Ms. Andersen, I will tell you that there is nothing more 
effective than for people to hear a firsthand account from 
someone who is just like them, and that is the most effective 
means of education.
    I commend the Department of Justice for taking enforcement 
action. For many years, the Department of Justice said, ``Well, 
these are too small dollar individually,'' when in fact, the 
latest statistics show that seniors are losing close to $3 
billion a year to the se pernicious scams. Again, I think that 
is the tip of the iceberg because many of these scams and 
losses are never reported to law enforcement.
    I hope that we are also encouraging more people to come 
forward, to report to law enforcement. Our Committee has a 
fraud hotline, and as I said at the very beginning, this Social 
Security scam is now the No. 1 reported scam to our hotline. We 
are going to continue our educational efforts, our legislative 
efforts, and our attempts to encourage further law enforcement.
    Just one final point on law enforcement, a lot of times, as 
we have learned, these gateway communication companies are very 
small. They are easy to put together, and they are hard to 
locate. Another problem is the scam may actually originate 
overseas. In fact, India has been a source of call centers for 
these scams, and thus, we have to have Federal law enforcement 
involved in order to close down those overseas call centers. 
That is really important as well.
    Together, we are determined to continue to work with all of 
you to fight these ruthless criminals who are targeting our 
Nation's seniors and often those who are most vulnerable, who 
are living on their Social Security checks, who have very 
little by way of savings.
    Senator Casey, do you have any final comments you would 
like to make?
    Senator Casey. Just briefly. Thank you, Chairman Collins. I 
want to thank you for this important hearing. I want to thank 
our witnesses.
    We have heard today how ruthless--and that is probably an 
understatement--these scam artists can be. We all have, 
especially elected officials, a sacred duty to continue our 
work to protect seniors against these ``criminals,'' to use the 
word that Senator Collins used. It is an important word to use 
in this context, especially when these criminals represent 
themselves as the U.S. Government.
    I am glad that today we are releasing our 2020 Fraud Book. 
That gives seniors important information about these scams.
    We know that this kind of information alone will not solve 
the problem. We have got a lot more work to do, as I mentioned 
my senior scams bill that will help better prepare and train 
retailers, banks, and wire transfer companies who are involved 
in the fight.
    Chairman Collins, I want to thank you and our witnesses for 
making it possible to get this word out today. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    In addition, I want to thank our hardworking staff who put 
together this hearing and identified witnesses. They are very 
committed as well, and I thank them.
    Committee members will have until Friday, February 7th, to 
submit additional questions for the record. If there are any, 
we will forward them promptly to you.
    Thank you again to all of our witnesses and all the 
Committee members who participated in the hearing today. The 
fact that we had so many members drop by at such a very busy 
and intense time for the U.S. Senate speaks very well to the 
commitment of members to helping in this effort to halt these 
scams.
    This concludes the hearing.
    [Whereupon, at 11:59 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]



      
 
      
      
      
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                                APPENDIX

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                      Prepared Witness Statements

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                        Questions for the Record

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