[Senate Hearing 116-371]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 116-371

                  WILDFIRE MANAGEMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE 
                            COVID-19 PANDEMIC

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              JUNE 9, 2020

                               __________
                               
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               

                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
40-917                 WASHINGTON : 2021                     
          
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               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                    LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                      Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                      Lucy Murfitt, Chief Counsel
            Nick Matiella, Senior Professional Staff Member
                 Renae Black, Democratic Staff Director
                Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
        Bryan Petit, Democratic Senior Professional Staff Member
                     Darla Ripchensky, Chief Clerk
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska....     1
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from 
  West Virginia..................................................     2
Cantwell, Hon. Maria, a U.S. Senator from Washington.............     4

                               WITNESSES

Phipps, John, Deputy Chief for State and Private Forestry, USDA 
  Forest Service.................................................     5
Kaster, Amanda, Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary, Land and 
  Minerals Management, U.S. Department of the Interior...........    12
McDonald, Norm, Alaska Type I Team Incident Commander and Chief 
  of Fire and Aviation, Alaska Division of Forestry..............    19
Geissler, George, Washington State Forester, on behalf of the 
  National Association of State Foresters........................    27

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Cantwell, Hon. Maria:
    Witness Introduction.........................................     4
    Chart entitled ``Significant Wildland Fire Potential 
      Outlook--August 2020'' produced by Predictive Services, 
      National Interagency Fire Center, issued May 1, 2020.......    63
    Chart entitled ``Significant Wildland Fire Potential 
      Outlook--August 2015'' produced by Predictive Services, 
      National Interagency Fire Center, issued August 1, 2015....    65
(The) Edison Electric Institute:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   115
Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics & Ecology:
    Letter for the Record........................................   119
Geissler, George:
    Opening Statement............................................    27
    Written Testimony............................................    29
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   111
International Association of Fire Chiefs:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   123
Kaster, Amanda:
    Opening Statement............................................    12
    Written Testimony............................................    14
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   103
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
    Opening Statement............................................     2
McDonald, Norm:
    Opening Statement............................................    19
    Written Testimony............................................    21
    Questions for the Record.....................................   110
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Phipps, John:
    Opening Statement............................................     5
    Written Testimony............................................     7
    Responses to Question from Senator Wyden.....................    47
    Response to Question from Senator Cantwell...................    67
    Response to Question from Senator Heinrich...................    73
    Responses to Questions from Senator King.....................    83
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    93
Tanana Chiefs Conference:
    Letter for the Record........................................   129
Wyden, Hon. Ron:
    Written Response from Secretary Bernhardt to Senator Wyden's 
      Question for the Record from the March 10, 2020 Committee 
      hearing....................................................    45

 
       WILDFIRE MANAGEMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JUNE 9, 2020

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m. in 
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa 
Murkowski, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

    The Chairman. This morning we have scheduled a hearing on 
wildfire management in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. Just 
as COVID-19 has altered our daily lives, requiring us to don 
face masks, practice social distancing and remain in self 
isolation, the virus has also added a new layer of complexity 
for our wildland firefighters. This year these heroes will be 
fighting wildfires while simultaneously working to protect 
themselves and others from a pandemic that threatens them, 
their families and communities. I understand the USDA Forest 
Service and the Department of the Interior had developed 
guidance on social distancing and other COVID-19 mitigation 
measures for our wildland firefighters. The health and safety 
of these individuals is a top priority, and I encourage the 
agencies to continue these efforts.
    The summer fire season is shaping up to be as severe as 
any. As fire activity increases, we can expect over 20,000 
firefighters to be mobilized by the Forest Service, Interior 
and their state, tribal, local and volunteer cooperators. At a 
moment's notice, fire personnel will be traveling by airplane 
and vehicle across state borders. Large concentrations of 
firefighters, support specialists and private service 
contractors will be assigned to incident command posts, or fire 
camps, where they will eat, rest and stage equipment and 
supplies. What was operationally routine before, may be exactly 
the kinds of activities that now risk spreading the Coronavirus 
around the fire services.
    First responders at the state and local level are already 
stretched thin due to COVID-19 response. This year's summer 
fire season is well underway and adding to the strain. In the 
State of Alaska, we have seen 179 wildland fires to date: total 
acres burned--41,000 acres; current number of active staff 
fires--we are at about three right now. So we are in our fire 
season. Last week we saw nearly a dozen uncontained large fires 
that were raging in the West. Several new large incidents were 
reported over the weekend. It is also possible that regions 
like Northern California will see a second wave of fires in the 
fall if Santa Ana winds pick up and dry conditions persist on 
the West Coast.
    Overall, experts at the National Interagency Fire Center 
are projecting this year's fire activity to be more active than 
2019. Last year, 4.7 million acres were consumed by fire. That 
was 25 percent below the average acres burned over the past ten 
years. Some may look at those numbers and say, okay, we were 
lucky there, but over half of those acres burned were in the 
State of Alaska. We had one of the largest and most expensive 
and heavily staffed fires last year. This was the Swan Lake 
Fire up on the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge which burned off 
and on for almost four months. There were over 3,000 people 
that were assigned to that fire, including hundreds of 
firefighters from the Lower 48. I think it just reminds us that 
even in a below average year, the fallout from a small fraction 
of infections on a fire like we saw last year in Swan Lake 
could result in a significant number of COVID-19 cases this 
year. We need to do everything possible to prevent that and to 
ensure that our firefighters don't fall ill or have to self-
quarantine.
    Through this hearing it is my hope that we begin to 
understand how firefighting tactics and strategies are being 
reimagined. I would also like to just very briefly add at the 
end of my comments here that all of us have a responsibility 
here. We want to use our great outdoors. In fact, we have the 
Great Outdoors Act on the Floor right now and a recognition 
that when we go outside we have a responsibility to be careful 
as well.
    Those who live or work in forest communities, those who 
will be camping and recreating outdoors this summer, just take 
precautions, be careful, be vigilant. And as I mentioned, it is 
our personal responsibility in many ways as individuals, but it 
is also a responsibility to clear hazardous trees, to deal with 
overgrown vegetation around your homes and your properties. Pay 
attention to weather conditions. Put out your campfires. Some 
of these are not rocket science, but they can make a 
difference. Drought, a changing climate and management 
practices have all contributed to our forests becoming 
dangerously flammable. Each of us can do our part to help our 
firefighters by creating fire-resilient neighborhoods and 
communities.
    With that, I turn to my friend and Ranking Member, Senator 
Manchin.

              STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, 
                U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski, and thank 
you for holding the hearing today on the summer's wildfire 
season which is now upon us.
    Before I get into my remarks, I also would like to take a 
moment to thank all the firefighters who do a really very, very 
difficult, tough job. These men and women bravely serve our 
country day in and day out as they work long, grueling hours in 
a very dangerous job. We all owe them a debt of gratitude. I 
also recognize that by simply coming to work they are putting 
themselves at increased risk of contracting COVID-19 and 
possibly spreading it to their families. I am humbled that, 
despite the risk, they choose to continue to serve. In order to 
ensure members of the public and their livelihoods continue to 
remain protected, I want all the firefighters to know that I 
and all my colleagues are working to make certain that they 
have the proper PPE and the equipment necessary to do their 
jobs as safely as possible and guarantee that they will be 
supported if they do contract COVID-19 this fire season.
    Madam Chairman, I understand that last week the 
meteorologists at the Department of the Interior and the Forest 
Service released the National Wildfire Forecast for this 
summer. Starting next month, pretty much the entire Western 
U.S. is predicted to have more wildfires than they usually 
have. Combined with the current COVID-19 pandemic, a lot of 
fear exists among both the public and firefighters. I believe a 
lot of that fear is simply fear of the unknown. There are 
questions circulating among the public about the use of 
evacuation centers this summer. There are questions circulating 
among firefighters about workers' compensation coverage should 
they contract COVID-19, but knowledge is the surest way to 
quickly dispel fears. I cannot think of a better forum than 
this morning's hearing to enable the witnesses to educate 
everyone as to what we should expect this summer.
    I understand the agencies have been planning for this since 
March, and we are all excited to hear your plans to keep both 
firefighters and communities safe. While planning and 
preparations have been underway for this summer, Congress has 
been also doing our part. The CARES Act included an additional 
$270 million for the firefighter agencies to better prepare for 
this summer. And last month I joined Chairman Murkowski and 
Ranking Member Udall in sending a letter to Vice President 
Pence asking for his assistance as the head of the Coronavirus 
Task Force to remove any red tape that had been hindering 
firefighters' ability to acquire PPE. I understand that by and 
large that has now been done.
    Just yesterday I introduced a bill with Ranking Member 
Udall to ensure that any firefighters that contract COVID-19 
will be supported. Our bill simply does two things. First, it 
requires all firefighters to be tested for COVID-19 before 
coming onto work this fire season. Second, because of the 
unique living and working conditions that wildland firefighters 
undertake, if a firefighter contracts COVID-19 during the fire 
season, they will be presumed to have contracted it in the 
course of their job duties, ensuring their eligibility for 
workers' compensation coverage. We have heard the firefighters 
are worried about whether they will be adequately covered 
should they fall ill. Our bill ensures that firefighters can 
have one less thing to worry about as they go about doing their 
very tough, dangerous jobs.
    My colleagues and I want everyone to be safe as possible 
this summer, and I understand that different agencies that are 
represented here are each taking slightly different approaches 
in order to ensure everyone's safety. I look forward to hearing 
from the witnesses about the various approaches they will be 
taking this year. Through our discussion today, we can learn 
from each other what is working well and then have those 
practices that are proving to be the most effective to be 
adopted more broadly.
    Thank you again, Madam Chairman, for holding this morning's 
hearing, which is so important.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
    We will now turn to our witnesses and, as members note, we 
are doing a hybrid hearing today. So we have, kind of, a split 
screen. We have two of our witnesses that are here with us 
today, and we have two witnesses that are joining us remotely.
    First, I will introduce Mr. John Phipps, who is the Deputy 
Chief for State and Private Forestry at the USDA Forest 
Service. We welcome you here, Mr. Phipps.
    Mr. Phipps is joined at the table by Amanda Kaster. Amanda 
is the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary for Lands and Minerals 
at the U.S. Department of the Interior. Welcome.
    On our video or our remote screen, we are joined by Mr. 
Norm McDonald. Norm is the Director of Fire and Aviation at the 
Alaska Division of Forestry. Norm, I know it is very early 
there in Alaska, so we appreciate you joining us at about six 
a.m. to do your business. This is going to be a long day for 
you, but we are kind of used to these long days when we are 
dealing with Alaska fires. Thank you for your work.
    At this time, I would like to turn to Senator Cantwell for 
her introduction of Mr. Geissler.

               STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM WASHINGTON

    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for 
holding this important hearing. I know that when we see the map 
and hear the details, this is not going to be the most pleasant 
hearing for us, but the early warning system helps us do a lot.
    I am so glad that Mr. Geissler is here with us today to 
testify on behalf of the National Association of State 
Foresters (NASF). He is the Past President of the National 
Association of State Foresters, the current Chair of the NASF 
Wildland Fire Committee and a member of the Wildland Fire 
Leadership Council. His primary and most important job, for me, 
anyway, I'd consider, is as Washington State Forester and 
Deputy Supervisor for Wildfire. The Washington State 
Commissioner of Public Lands appointed him to that position in 
2018, and he came from Oklahoma where he served as the Director 
of Forestry Services with the Oklahoma Department of 
Agriculture. Prior to that role he worked in private 
management, wildland firefighting and as a forester in the U.S. 
Forest Service in Idaho.
    I look forward to hearing what his comments are today about 
a critical time for all of us in the Pacific Northwest and 
throughout the nation.
    The Chairman. Right. Thank you, Senator Cantwell.
    With that, we will begin with our panel. We will go in the 
order that I have introduced. First, Mr. Phipps, then Ms. 
Kaster, then Mr. McDonald and then, Mr. Geissler. We would ask 
that you try to keep your comments to about five minutes so 
that we can have an opportunity for questions and your 
responses at the end. Mr. Phipps, welcome. Give it a try. You 
may be on.

 STATEMENT OF JOHN PHIPPS, DEPUTY CHIEF FOR STATE AND PRIVATE 
                 FORESTRY, USDA FOREST SERVICE

    Mr. Phipps. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Ranking Member and 
members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to 
appear before you today. My testimony outlines the current 
status of USDA Forest Service wildfire preparations, the 
protocols put in place to keep communities and our firefighters 
safe and the ways the Forest Service is working with its many 
partners to improve forest conditions and how communities 
prepare for wildfire.
    This last fall and winter have been dry across Western U.S. 
and many states have lower than average snowpack. We have 
already seen fire activity in the Southeast and Southwest. The 
seasonal outlook from the National Interagency Fire Center 
tells us that there is potential for above normal fire activity 
as fuels continue to dry and cure in the Northwest, Northern 
California and the Great Basin. Given this outlook and the 
pandemic, we are focused on being prepared to protect our 
responders and respond to fire. The Forest Service stands ready 
to respond to wildland fire with up to 35 air tankers, 671 
helicopters, more than 900 engines, 300 pieces of heavy 
equipment and about 10,000 firefighters.
    This year with COVID-19 we are focusing more than ever on 
aggressive initial attack of wildland fires using local area 
resources from all parties. Our goal is rapid containment to 
minimize the number of large wildfires. Through work with the 
National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group, we have developed 
wildland fire response plans for each geographic area that 
provide guidance during the Coronavirus pandemic for 
maintaining fire response, continuity and enhancing firefighter 
safety. We are relying on the medical expertise we receive from 
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National 
Institute for Occupational Safety and Health and the National 
Wildfire Coordinating Group's Interagency Emergency Medical 
Committee and have established interim standard operating 
procedures and protocols for screening and quarantine of 
firefighters. We are relying on the CDC guidance for PPE and 
continue to build inventories to meet current and future 
national needs for wildland fire incidents. We have also 
modified aviation and logistical contracts to better meet this 
new environment.
    We are not in this alone. We have strong relationships with 
federal, state, local and tribal partners. We are working 
closely with our interagency partners to issue guidance. The 
Forest Service continues to focus on reducing wildfire risk to 
communities and natural resources through prescribed burns, 
timber harvest and other mechanical treatments. We continue to 
move forward with our shared stewardship approach to improving 
the conditions of our nation's forests, and we are on track to 
meeting our targets. We are actively working with states, 
tribes and other partners to share decisions, risk and create 
mutually beneficial outcomes.
    Thank you for the continued support of our wildland fire 
management mission. We appreciate the fire funding fix, the 
2018 Omnibus, 2018 and 2014 Farm bills, the Dingell Act and 
passing the recent funding for additional PPE. I will conclude 
by recognizing the 50th anniversary of the National Interagency 
Fire Center in Boise this year. This partnership continues to 
demonstrate that we are all in this together.
    After sharing my testimony, I want you to remember three 
things. One, given the challenge of fighting fire in this 
pandemic, we will continue to do everything we can to protect 
our people and the public. We understand that the uncertainty 
ahead will require our best efforts to learn and rapidly adapt. 
We greatly appreciate your continuing interest in helping us 
successfully respond to wildland fire. I welcome any questions 
you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Phipps follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Phipps.
    Let's now turn to Ms. Kaster.

STATEMENT OF AMANDA KASTER, ACTING DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, 
 LAND AND MINERALS MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

    Ms. Kaster. Chairman Murkowski, Ranking Member Manchin and 
members of the Committee, I am Amanda Kaster, the Acting Deputy 
Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management. I am 
pleased to join you today to discuss the Department of the 
Interior's diligent, ongoing efforts to maintain an effective 
wildfire response. While mitigating the risk of COVID-19 to our 
firefighters and the public, we are actively managing fuels and 
vegetation to limit wildfires.
    Every year the Department and its interagency partners are 
faced with unique challenges in preparing for the wildfire 
season. This year is no different. The onset of COVID-19 
requires that the interagency wildland fire community be 
thoughtful about the way it traditionally manages wildfires and 
protects firefighters, communities and resources from that 
risk. This year we have strategically planned for wildfire 
suppression during the pandemic including sending wildland 
firefighters across state borders. Our firefighters are working 
as family units to protect people, property and themselves 
while advancing safe and efficient fire suppression operations. 
Thanks to your support, the CARES Act provides additional 
critical resources to ensure that firefighters have the 
equipment they need to fight wildfires this season.
    Our coordination with our interagency, state and tribal and 
local partners are vital to the Department's success in 
carrying out its stewardship responsibilities, particularly 
fuels management work and essential restoration efforts. Of the 
nearly 4.7 million acres of land that burned in 2019, over half 
occurred in Alaska which saw fire activity that far exceeded 
the state's ten-year average. This season we are seeing 
increased levels of wildfire activity in the Great Basin, 
Southern and Rocky Mountain geographic areas. The most recent 
outlook shows potential for above normal fire activity in 2020 
with long-range forecast data showing overall warmer and drier 
than average conditions this summer for the West. The President 
and Secretary Bernhardt are committed and focused on active 
land management efforts to reduce wildfire risk.
    In 2019, the Department completed a total of 1.4 million 
acres of fuels management treatments, including targeted 
grazing and prescribed burns. So far in 2020, the Department 
has completed 620,000 acres of treatments which is 
approximately half of all planned treatments for this year. The 
Department recently approved fuel breaks in the Great Basin 
which would support the construction of up to 11,000 miles of 
fuel breaks to control wildfires. Further, Under Secretary 
Bernhardt's leadership, the Department is prioritizing the 
streamlining of its processes through the creation of 
categorical exclusions, and it has also begun the process of 
updating its forest management rules to increase efficiency and 
to improve the agency's ability to conduct active forest 
management on public lands. These management efforts will 
continue long after the fire season concludes.
    While we cannot fully eliminate the risk associated with 
COVID-19 to the firefighting workforce, experts throughout the 
wildland fire community are actively collaborating on how to 
limit firefighter exposure. The Medical and Public Health 
Advisory Team consists of an interagency group of medical 
health experts from DOI, USDA and the Centers for Disease 
Control and Prevention. This team has established guidance and 
protocols including social distancing, cleaning and 
disinfection, personal hygiene and well-being and the use of 
personal protective equipment during fire operations. Our 
priority continues to be aggressive, initial and extended 
attack.
    The Department is on track to have the same number of 
firefighters this year as last season, including 4,500 
temporary-seasonal, career-seasonal and permanent employees. 
They will be supported by an available mix of firefighting 
aircraft including access to 100 single engine airtankers, 370 
helicopters, 18 scoopers and numerous other support aircraft. 
The Department stands ready and able to fight fires across the 
country this season. I'm happy to answer any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Kaster follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Kaster.
    Let's go up to Alaska, to Norm McDonald, our Director of 
Fire and Aviation at the Forestry Division in Alaska.

    STATEMENT OF NORM MCDONALD, ALASKA TYPE I TEAM INCIDENT 
 COMMANDER AND CHIEF OF FIRE AND AVIATION, ALASKA DIVISION OF 
                            FORESTRY

    Mr. McDonald. Good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking 
Member Manchin, and members of the Committee. My name is Norm 
McDonald, Chief of Fire and Aviation for the State of Alaska 
and the Incident Commander (IC) of the Alaska Incident 
Management Team which is one of 16 national response teams in 
the United States. The teams are geographically located and 
support wildland and all hazard management with the majority of 
the teams on the west side of the country with the primary 
mission of wildland fire response. Last summer I had the 
opportunity to meet with Senator Murkowski when she visited our 
incident command post on McKinley Fire in Willow, Alaska. She 
and I know many of you have witnessed firsthand the devastation 
wildland fire can have on our communities and also the scope 
and response it takes to manage these complex incidents.
    What an incident looks like, a normal incident on a typical 
year, our complex fires will consist of over thousands of 
firefighters and support staff. The incident command posts are 
built to support the firefighting efforts, including a large 
mess hall, dining facilities, where we feed thousands of 
firefighters a day. We hold daily briefings, consist 
traditionally of large groups gathered to get assignments, fire 
weather, fire behavior updates and the safety concerns of the 
day. We hold cooperator and public meetings that host hundreds 
of residents gathered to get updates on the incident, to ask 
questions and share information. And of course, the 
firefighting effort, boots on the ground, includes our crews, 
engines, aircraft and heavy equipment. Those incident command 
posts are designed to support those efforts.
    The organizational model we use for incident management is 
based on large groups of people in close contact settings. That 
goes against every CDC recommendation that is out there since 
the start of the COVID pandemic. The fires are dirty. There's 
limited hygiene. The work is arduous. The days are long. 
There's often little rest between incidents. Smoke exposure and 
the grind of the season wears down the immune system, so even 
in the best of times it's difficult to maintain a healthy 
workforce. So for us, the concerns of COVID are real, and we're 
aware of the risks.
    Of the questions being asked of what are we doing to reduce 
risk and adapt to the COVID environment, our priority is always 
firefighter and public safety, every fire. And this year we're 
looking at that from two different fronts, both the fire 
hazards and risks and the COVID hazard and risks. And we're 
asking what can we do to reduce that risk and reduce exposure. 
Each team is working to adapt to the new environment. We're 
developing and sharing best management practices through weekly 
calls and updates and lessons learned.
    Just yesterday we met with the Southwest Team who is 
assigned to the Sawtooth Fire in Arizona. We share their after-
action review findings, and we just take that knowledge in 
every fire to improve on where we started. We've conducted 
simulation training to address COVID-related issues that we may 
be faced with in fire camps. We've practiced and tested the use 
of virtual platforms in lieu of our standard, large group 
meetings and briefings, and we've adopted the ``Module of One'' 
concept through the family unit where each section is a stand-
alone unit. Part of our strategy in our strategic planning 
process will focus on development of strategies and 
alternatives that use tactics with the focus of reducing 
exposure, not only to wildland fire, but also to hazards of 
COVID.
    Some of the challenges that we're going to be facing this 
year and one of them is the very real issue of a reduced number 
of resources and responders that make up our incident 
management teams. Part of this is due to local government using 
their responders, who traditionally go with us, as part of the 
COVID response and there's the fears of if they respond out of 
their community, the quarantine requirements involved with 
that. There's high-risk category members on our teams. A lot of 
our teams are made up of retirees. They come back each season 
to augment our workforce during busy seasons, and they're 
evaluating the safety of their response this summer.
    This year there's an emphasis on initial attack which is a 
good practice in this environment, but the results are 
resources are being held back to support that mission. We have 
seen some inconsistencies regarding direction when it comes to 
testing and PPE requirements, and this provides some challenges 
in messaging of our firefighters. We've seen travel times 
delayed in Alaska. We're up to four days, so the reduction of 
flights around the country is a concern.
    I'll close out by saying I'm really honored to be here and 
truly appreciate the opportunity to testify today. I speak for 
myself and many of the ICs I've worked with this spring, and 
I'll tell you there's no one saying we can't do this. They're 
just asking and working on how we can do this safely. So I want 
to thank you for your support and working with us to ensure we 
are prepared for this season. I thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. McDonald follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. McDonald. We certainly 
appreciate those words.
    Let's now wrap up the panel with comments from Mr. George 
Geissler from the Washington State Forestry Division.

  STATEMENT OF GEORGE GEISSLER, WASHINGTON STATE FORESTER ON 
     BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE FORESTERS

    Mr. Geissler. Good morning, Chairman Murkowski, Ranking 
Member Manchin and members of the Committee. I appreciate the 
opportunity to speak with you today and submit written 
testimony as this Committee examines the outlook for the 
remainder of the 2020 fire year, the complex issues surrounding 
wildland fire management and the unique challenges presented by 
the COVID-19 pandemic. NASF represents the state forestry 
agencies in all 50 states, eight U.S. territories and the 
District of Columbia. These agencies provide a significant 
portion of the overall wildland fire suppression effort 
nationally in terms of resources, personnel, capacity and 
funds. As was stated earlier, just last year there were 50,477 
wildland fires that burned nearly 4.7 million acres across all 
jurisdictions. State forestry and local fire service responded 
to the majority of those wildfires, 79 percent.
    This year emergency responders across the U.S. are impacted 
by COVID-19. Many state forestry agencies have been engaged to 
varying degrees since early March supporting response efforts 
alongside of our state emergency managers, health departments, 
fire service and National Guard. Some of these state agencies 
were also involved in fighting wildfires during this same 
period. COVID-19 is posing significant challenges for wildland 
fire professionals. Local and volunteer firefighters have been 
overwhelmed by COVID-19 response. Some wildland fire agencies 
struggled to hire and training for firefighters has been 
difficult. We lost valuable time to conduct hazard risk 
reduction work and initially there was a lack of understanding 
regarding how to manage wildland fires during the pandemic. 
State and federal agencies have developed operating procedures 
for suppressing wildfires while reducing wildfire exposure to 
COVID-19.
    You have heard from the previous speakers and can find in 
my written testimony how an effort managed by the National 
Multi-Agency Coordinating Group has established a foundation of 
baseline protocols and best management practices. This has not 
been easy, nor is it complete. Protocols have been laid out as 
living documents and are expected to be improved throughout the 
year as we learn what is working and what does not through 
after-action reviews done by our firefighters. We are building 
a bridge as we cross it.
    On the fire line we cannot be distracted and must maintain 
our focus on the ever-present danger and risk of wildland fire. 
COVID-19 does not change these dangers and we cannot jeopardize 
safety in attempts to lower COVID risk. If something changes 
one risk for another, we must figure out better protocols. 
There are literally hundreds of best management practices 
developed relating to the logistics of fire alone such as 
camps, firefighter feeding and care. We're implementing 
strategies such as physical distancing on fire lines and in 
camps and we've identified COVID-19 PPE requirements. We've 
also worked to evaluate suppression strategies to further limit 
firefighter exposure. We look to the potential of more 
dispersed, strategically placed crews but we also know that 
rapid detection and initial attack to keep fires small is the 
best way to minimize the number of personnel assigned to a 
specific fire. To accomplish this, aviation resources are 
critical. Both state and federal agencies are increasing their 
number of on-call and exclusive-use fixed wing and motor 
aircraft.
    We appreciate the Committee holding this hearing and the 
opportunity to highlight the coordination and cooperation of 
the interagency planning efforts to address wildland fire 
amidst the COVID-19 pandemic this fire year. We're encouraged 
by this Committee's leadership and advocacy efforts with the 
Administration to help secure PPE for federal, state and local 
wildland firefighters. NASF continues to advocate that 
emergency supplemental funding to state fire assistance and 
volunteer fire assistance is the ideal mechanism for ensuring 
that this need is met quickly and easily. Because the funding 
assistance that was provided in the CARES Act is not available 
for state wildland firefighters and funding available to local 
and volunteer firefighters is through a competitive grant 
process--significant time and resources to apply. NASF has also 
requested funding from Congress to states to assist agencies in 
securing wildland aviation contracts. Also, in the long-term, 
we urge you to consider the effects of COVID-19 pandemic is 
having on state budgets. It's critical that emergency response 
capabilities that are provided by state forestry agencies for 
all hazard response is maintained and not diminished by 
impending cuts to state budgets.
    Thank you for your time and the opportunity to speak with 
the Committee. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Geissler follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Geissler, and thank you to all 
of our witnesses here today.
    You have all spoken to the challenges that we are dealing 
with. Firefighting on our public lands and our wildlands is 
challenging enough, and then you interject the COVID pandemic 
and the challenges that we face. How is it possible to even do 
social distancing when you are out battling a fire on the lines 
there? How do you transport our firefighters when you have to 
move them in small aircraft or if they are on a road in 
vehicles? These are challenges that are daunting to say the 
least.
    I want to ask a question that goes to the heart of the 
testing issue because I have long maintained that the way that 
this country is going to get back to work, the way we are going 
to get our kids into school is when we can really have the 
ability to test and give some certainty and certainty means 
that more than one test and you are done. In Alaska we have 
been pretty tough with our quarantine requirements to this day. 
We have a 14-day quarantine policy when you fly into the State 
of Alaska. They just changed that mandate last Saturday, I 
believe it was, to allow that if you have tested negative 
within 72 hours before you land in Alaska, you can come in and 
you are free to move about, but you are required to get a 
secondary test within a short period after you have arrived in 
the state. If you are not able to get a test before you come, 
there is a testing station at our major airports and you will 
get a voucher then for a second test. We are taking this very 
seriously.
    For many of our rural communities the seriousness is more 
than just following CDC guidelines. They are still motivated by 
the fear that they saw in 1918 and are still retelling the 
stories of whole villages that were literally wiped out. Many 
of our wildland fires in Alaska are out in these rural areas 
where you have these communities that have effectively locked 
themselves in. They have said, we don't want anyone coming in 
from not only the outside of Alaska but within the state to the 
point where mail supplies and grocery supplies--they are saying 
hold off on them. We are hunkering down because we are 
concerned for our safety.
    So this has been a very, very significant issue for us in 
our communities where they are fearful of the virus, but now 
they are fearful about firefighters who may be coming into the 
region who may be carrying the virus. The question that I have, 
and I will direct this to you, Norm. In Alaska, we have the 
testing requirements that we have put in place and I appreciate 
in your testimony, you didn't note it necessarily in your oral 
testimony here but in your written testimony, you talk about 
the protocols. If you can just briefly address some of the 
issues that you have faced as you have put these into place 
working with your federal partners to establish this protocol. 
Then I would like to turn to you, Mr. Phipps, and you, Ms. 
Kaster, about what can be done outside of the State of Alaska 
to encourage more testing, whether we have legal considerations 
that play into this. I would like to understand why what we are 
doing in Alaska can't be replicated in other parts.
    Mr. McDonald, if you can just speak to what you are doing, 
how you are doing it and the challenges that you have faced in 
getting these protocols in place.
    Mr. McDonald. Okay and yeah, you addressed a lot of the 
reasons why we work so hard to initiate testing protocol in 
Alaska and a lot of that credit goes to our Department of 
Health and Social Services. They're doing that, not only for 
fire, but for our fisheries industry, oil and mining. So 
they've worked very hard to set up this process.
    On the fire side of it, so what that would look like is an 
individual's resource order attached to an order will be the 
requirements to check in and do a self-screen before they 
depart. There's an app which puts your departure time and where 
you're flying into. At both airports in Alaska, both Fairbanks 
and Anchorage are testing facilities through a contract where 
firefighters will get tested as they get off the airplane. 
We're putting them into a quarantine for the 24 hours it takes 
to get a test result back and we're seeing faster times now. 
They've got new technology where we're seeing results back 
within five hours which is, for a fire response, even better.
    Once there's a negative result on that test, that 
firefighter will go about their assignment. It's just part of 
the process. So the testing is just one part. We're still 
following social distancing, the hygiene, CDC requirements. 
We're still wearing PPE, the masks, but that's just a very 
important part of what we're doing to help reduce that risk to 
our firefighters. You brought up some of the challenges we've 
had, I mentioned it, is the inconsistency with some of the 
guidance or direction some of our partner agencies are 
receiving on the federal side.
    So we, for Alaska, we call that, we have that a requirement 
and some of the other agencies are feeling they cannot call 
that a requirement, they can say, strongly recommend which 
contradicts our feeling of what we need to do to provide for 
firefighters and public safety in Alaska through testing.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. McDonald.
    I am well over my time, but Mr. Phipps or Ms. Kaster, if 
you can just very quickly speak to why you have this 
inconsistency in guidance here and what more can be done to 
ensure that we are able to encourage a level of testing.
    Mr. Phipps. I think the interagency community is highly 
interested in pursuing a robust testing capacity. And as we 
know, it's very decentralized to local health units and varies 
from state to state but for the purposes of an average fire, 
like he said, in a rural area, we're going to need more of a 
mobile capacity that could come to the fire, screen people on 
entry. There's a lot of people that go back and forth and 
during and on exit, before they go home and we just haven't 
seen that capacity even though we are highly interested in it 
because it's--and I think one of the--it's a strength, but also 
a constraint that the testing assumption is it's all local and 
local varies.
    The Chairman. So as I understand, you are not averse to 
doing the testing, it is a matter of capacity at this point in 
time.
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, and we're very interested in whatever the 
Committee could do to help make that national robust capacity a 
reality.
    The Chairman. Let me turn to Senator Manchin.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    Yesterday evening I introduced a bill with Ranking Member 
Udall to make the workers' compensation process less onerous 
for firefighters. I understand often several thousand people 
live closely together in large command posts that usually pop 
up to staff and support operations on a large wildfire. It 
creates a unique scenario for these firefighters and would 
increase the risk of transmission. Our bill would make sure 
that these firefighters are covered. I understand the 
Department of Labor has not made it possible for most 
firefighters to meet the current Department of Labor 
requirements to receive workers' compensation should they 
contract COVID-19 during this fire season. So it has been a big 
concern of firefighters.
    Mr. Phipps and Ms. Kaster, do you support our efforts to 
ensure that medical expenses of firefighters would be covered 
should they contract COVID-19 this fire season?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, Forest Service, I know the Interagency 
Environment supports that. We are concerned about the--it's not 
exactly clear from the firefighters, looking through the 
firefighter's lens, but we're highly interested in anything the 
Committee could do to help strengthen or add clarity to the 
expectations because we're, we clearly think that if somebody 
comes down with COVID-19, they ought to be covered under the 
Department.
    Senator Manchin. All we are saying is basically during this 
period of COVID-19 pandemic going on and fire season going on 
that people should basically have access to workers' comp which 
sometimes they don't because of the stringent requirements they 
don't meet. But with this unusual situation, you are saying you 
need clarity. You cannot do that by just Executive Order or----
    Mr. Phipps. Well, we, right now, we've been told by DOL, 
Department of Labor, that they will consider each case on a 
case-by-case basis, that's our current understanding.
    Senator Manchin. Okay. Well, we are going to do what we can 
in this Committee to make sure we have clarity on that, that 
these people do not have to wait and they do not have to 
struggle and the families do not have to worry. It is 
ridiculous.
    Mr. Phipps. We appreciate that.
    Senator Manchin. And you are told by DOL so, maybe we can 
get to DOL. We will get them here.
    Also, Ms. Kaster, can you tell me how you all came to the 
decision on what you are using instead of testing? As I 
understand you are not mandating testing, but I know in Alaska, 
they test twice coming in.
    Ms. Kaster. Thank you for that question, Senator.
    So the Medical and Public Health Advisory Team guidance at 
this time has contemplated that question and a lot of it comes 
down to, you know, in the State of Alaska they are using their 
resources for the purposes of testing. What I will say is 
firefighter safety is truly paramount to the Department and as 
the fire season continues, we're going to continue to explore 
ways to better protect our firefighters. So that guidance will 
continue to evolve over time.
    Senator Manchin. So you are saying because of cost you 
don't have the resources to do the testing?
    Ms. Kaster. That's not accurate, Senator. It's just at this 
time because of some CDC guidance, the testing of asymptomatic 
employees is not recommended.
    Senator Manchin. That does not make any sense at all. We 
are asking people to go into a work environment and not knowing 
if they are going to be associated with people that have been 
infected or not.
    Ms. Kaster. So we do temperature checks and other 
recommendations consistent with CDC guidance.
    Senator Manchin. Can you do testing? Would you all change 
your requirement to do that? We are asking you because these 
people are put in very, very difficult situations.
    Ms. Kaster. We agree, Senator, that firefighter safety is 
critical, and so we'd be happy to have further discussions. As 
I said, we're going to need to continue to be vigilant and 
active----
    Senator Manchin. I mean, the fire season has already 
started.
    Ms. Kaster. Absolutely. And we have seen, you know, 
outbreaks in various areas including in the Southwest and we're 
taking those lessons learned to adapt----
    Senator Manchin. So you are the Acting Director, right?
    Ms. Kaster. I'm the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary, 
Senator.
    Senator Manchin. Okay. So who do we need to get to?
    Ms. Kaster. We're happy to work with you at the Department. 
I stand ready.
    Senator Manchin. I think you are going to find out if we 
had a vote today it would be unanimous, bipartisan unanimous, 
mandatory testing.
    Ms. Kaster. We look forward to working with you.
    Senator Manchin. What do you mean by working with us?
    Ms. Kaster. We'll be happy to----
    Senator Manchin. If we are telling you to test, can you 
test?
    Ms. Kaster. We do have testing available, yes, Senator.
    Senator Manchin. We are saying that we want mandatory 
testing for every firefighter going into fire season.
    Ms. Kaster. We'd like to discuss that further with the 
medical professionals at CDC as well. It's an interagency 
effort, Senator.
    Senator Manchin. Okay, well, that is not acceptable, but I 
understand. I do not want to put you on a point. We have to 
work this out. This is ridiculous.
    I want to go to one more thing, real quick. Western 
University, my alma mater, received an emergency National 
Science Foundation Grant to design and manufacture personal 
equipment, personal protective equipment, PPE, from wood 
derivatives. I am happy to report last week the team finalized 
its design, acquired the needed material and announced that 
they are ready to begin making these PPEs. They will be using 
3D printers to make locally-sourced, biodegradable, medical 
grade face masks. They are aiming to have the manufacturing 
process optimized later in the year.
    I know the Forest Service Forest Products Lab has a group 
that specializes in commercializing new products. So, Mr. 
Phipps, is it possible or can you or will you, with the Forest 
Products Lab, be able to come alongside the team at WVU and 
what they have been able to accomplish and be ready to go with 
this?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, it's very possible, and we'd be glad to do 
it.
    Senator Manchin. Have you all heard about this process, 
what they are doing?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, I'm not familiar with the specifics, but 
I've heard----
    Senator Manchin. Can I connect you all?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes.
    Senator Manchin. Okay. Okay.
    With that, let me just further--Madam Chairman, if I may?
    The Chairman. Go ahead, Senator.
    Senator Manchin. The testing for the firefighters, is 
this--I mean, at this horrible time that we are going through, 
I think that every member up here would like to have that 
happen. What can we do so they have clearance and clarity to 
what we want done as a Committee?
    The Chairman. Well this is something that I do think we 
need to really drill down on. It was my understanding that when 
you have designated, specifically designated, critical workers 
and our firefighters are definitely critical workers, that that 
does put them in a different category because the very demands 
of their job limit their ability to follow those other CDC 
guidelines which is social distancing, washing hands. You go 
out fighting fires, there is no place to be washing your hands. 
You can put as much hand sanitizer on as you want.
    Senator Manchin. Let us ask Mr. McDonald because in Alaska 
they are testing twice. They must think it is, I mean, the 
living conditions in a forest fire environment. Mr. McDonald, I 
know I am over my time, but can you explain to us what you all 
do and tell us about the living conditions people are in and 
why you think it is imperative to know if a person has been 
affected or not before you put them in that condition, in that 
situation?
    Mr. McDonald. Yeah, the living conditions are like I 
described. They're very rustic, limited hygiene facilities, 
social distancing is difficult, although we are working toward 
that. For myself and the health people I work with in Alaska, 
we just felt this was a very important step in the firefighter 
safety and public safety process. We use a lot of tools in this 
job to keep our firefighters safe. I look at this as just 
another piece of the puzzle for this year during the COVID.
    Senator Manchin. So you all thought it was imperative that, 
basically, you tested before you put workers together working 
in that type of environment?
    Mr. McDonald. That is just one part of the process, 
correct.
    The Chairman. Senator Manchin, your time is up.
    Senator Manchin. I know.
    The Chairman. But I do think that this is an important 
discussion for us. Alaska is a pretty big state. We had half of 
the forest fires last year. We have learned that very often in 
order to fight our fires we have to bring our own resources to 
bear, but we do bring in, and thankfully so, so many crews from 
the Lower 48. I understand the challenges of interagency and 
the fact that we do have our respective states that might have 
different views on testing, but it does seem to me that if I am 
going to agree, volunteer to be a firefighter, I want to know 
that I am going to be as safe in Arizona and Washington as I am 
in Alaska when I am putting my life on the line.
    Senator Manchin. I think we need to get a letter. We need 
to get with Dave Bernhardt. We need to get Rob Wallace, and we 
need to make sure this is cleared up. This is ridiculous. It 
really is. I am not chastising anybody, but for Alaska--
firefighting is firefighting. Living conditions are the same 
everywhere no matter where you go, and for them to take a 
position that is so, I think, more beneficial to the 
firefighters themselves and protecting them and for these 
officials saying, well, CDC guidelines . . .
    CDC guidelines are based on when we have not had enough 
tests. This government will not pay for the testing that needs 
to be done. They won't mobilize. They won't basically 
commercialize the Defense Production Act in order for us to 
have the tests that are needed. We are asking people to open up 
and go back to business and there is not a person in West 
Virginia that wants to go back to the workplace unless they 
know the person they are working with is not affected.
    It is just very difficult. It is very difficult. But we 
will get with it. We will clear this up, not to put you--thank 
you very much, and I did not mean to put you on the spot.
    The Chairman. I don't know whether Senator McSally is still 
on the line, but if you are, Senator, you are next.
    [No response.]
    Is she there, Darla? Okay, it does not appear that she is 
there. If she comes back on, we will put her into the queue, 
but let's turn to Senator Wyden.
    Senator Wyden. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I want 
to begin by saying I think you and Senator Manchin are making a 
lot of extraordinarily important points. I have been listening 
to what the agencies are saying in Washington, DC, this 
morning, not the folks out in the field, and they are talking 
about exploring these critical issues. They are using the words 
``considering,'' ``consulting.'' I do not see the urgency 
needed to respond in a uniform, a practical way to what you and 
Senator Manchin are talking about. So I really appreciate you 
are trying to point out the fire season is happening now. COVID 
is happening now and the idea that we are going to hear about a 
lot of considering and consulting just is not going to protect 
our courageous firefighters nor is it going to protect folks in 
the rural West.
    Obviously, getting to my remarks, because of this 
unprecedented one-two punch to the rural West, a pandemic virus 
and a potentially brutal wildfire season, on April 30th I 
joined ten other Western Senators asking for specific answers 
to the kinds of questions that are being raised here. We have 
to have answers for rural residents. We have to have answers 
for these courageous firefighters. And late yesterday, the 
agency responded.
    Now I am glad that they decided they would respond to 11 
United States Senators, but they used much of the same language 
that we have heard, Madam Chair, this morning. We heard, for 
example, that they wanted to coordinate with state and local 
partners. So back again to these kind of word salad kind of 
ideas that really don't go to whether you are going to actually 
get the work done that my colleagues are talking about. In 
fact, I was recently briefed in Oregon by the local partners 
and they did not give me any indication that there is direct, 
on-the-ground coordination between DC health and emergency 
services programs and the front lines of Oregon forestry.
    In fact, Madam Chair, Ms. Kaster, at your agency, the 
Department of the Interior, when asked to commit to maintaining 
longstanding cooperation with the Oregon Department of Forestry 
in fighting fires, Secretary Bernhardt just said, ``no.''
    Madam Chair, I would like to make that written response a 
part of the record----
    The Chairman. It will be included.
    Senator Wyden. ----at this point.
    [Written response from Secretary Bernhardt follows.]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Wyden. So my first question then is for you, Mr. 
Phipps. What specifically is the Forest Service going to do to 
really address these issues, these issues of testing and 
protection for the firefighters in rural communities using the 
Centers for Disease Control and the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency and do it with people on the ground quickly--
I am talking about within the next couple of weeks? What is 
going to be done to get that help to folks on the ground 
quickly?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for the question. I think it's a 
great question.
    To date, our Interagency Medical Committee has actually 
advised against testing. I know that runs contrary to a lot of 
people's understanding of why that would be the case, and 
they're concerned that testing is a snapshot in time so that's 
why you have to do it multiple times and its accuracy is----
    Senator Wyden. Mr. Phipps, we know that argument. So what 
then is going to be done to protect the firefighters and these 
communities, specifically?
    Mr. Phipps. We're relying on the social distancing and 
personal protective equipment, hygiene--moduling is one concept 
that had been mentioned. To date, without having this, what I 
had mentioned, a robust capacity that's actually mobile that 
can come to a fire camp, you know, we're concerned that that 
could easily overwhelm local health facilities. So we have to 
do something, as the Interagency, more----
    Senator Wyden. You need to tell us what that something is 
within a week, and you need to get it to the Chair and the 
Ranking Member because to just hear about ``exploring'' and 
``doing something'' and ``maybe we will look at this'' is just 
not acceptable to the people who give us an election 
certificate.
    [Information regarding plans for firefighter and community 
protection during the fire season follows.]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Senator Wyden. I have one last point that I am going to 
make on my way out. It is for you, Ms. Kaster. Americans have 
come from every corner of our country to demand justice for the 
murder of George Floyd by the Minneapolis Police. Last week the 
country looked on in horror as the Park Police and other 
federal law enforcement unleashed brutally excessive force on 
peaceful and lawful demonstrators. This was, of course, to 
clear the way for the President to have this photo op at St. 
Johns.
    My question is I can't find anybody who will take 
responsibility for what was done. I would like to have you, the 
Department, tell me by the end of the week whether Secretary 
Bernhardt gave the order to clear the protestors out of the 
park. I would like to have that to me, in writing, by the end 
of the week.
    I am over my time, Madam Chair. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Wyden.
    Next, Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to 
the witnesses for being here in such an important time. I 
definitely want to join in on the concerns both the, well 
actually, everybody has voiced so far--the Chair, the Ranking 
Member and Senator Wyden. There is a lot to be done to get 
ready for this fire season. The reason why we want to get the 
issues ironed out, particularly as it relates to COVID but also 
as to what are we going to use in the best and greatest 
technology, is that the National Interagency Fire Center issued 
the Significant Wildland Fire Potential Outlook for the fire 
season and for the State of Washington, and I would say the 
whole Pacific Northwest, we are in the bullseye of what is 
likely to be a very challenging fire season.
    Now, the map shows, basically, most of the Pacific 
Northwest, maybe not including Puget Sound, as being the 
epicenter of this year's fire season.
    [The August 2020 map follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Cantwell. So the only worse map that I think I saw 
on that is the map that is next to it, and maybe it could be 
pulled out a little bit, is the 2015 fire season map and we 
know that that ended up being one of the worst fire seasons in 
the history of our state.
    [The August 2015 map follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Cantwell. Those two maps look very similar as it 
relates to the Northwest being in the epicenter.
    So we need to get ready. We need to get ready. We need to 
continue the focus that the legislation that myself and Senator 
Gardner passed related to technology that is used so that we 
can detect fires earlier, and we need to use the satellite 
technology that is there and available but I am not sure is 
being processed through the Forest Service. So I want to know 
what is it going to take for us to get that information and 
technology used?
    I guess, Mr. Geissler, I will start with you. The National 
Weather Service satellite technology can detect fires at an 
early stage and that is one of the ways, but a very good way, 
for us to find fire starts right away.
    And Deputy Chief Phipps and Deputy Assistant Secretary 
Kaster, is the Forest Service and Department of the Interior 
aware of this weather service satellite technology and are 
states using it? Is there something else that the Forest 
Service needs to take this technology and get it deployed for 
this fire season? I can just tell you, those two maps with 
basically the Pacific Northwest, of Washington, Oregon, Idaho 
and Montana at the epicenter, we already know what happened in 
2015. It was horrific. And if that is where we are headed, we 
need to get this fixed and we need the best technology to stop 
fires as soon as they start.
    I don't know who can help by jumping in with this satellite 
technology.
    Mr. Phipps. I'm aware of the satellite technology, but I'm 
not aware of how it's being currently used. There's something 
that is, that we're developing that should be available in the 
next couple weeks. It's called WildfireSAFE to try to get a 
better idea on the conditions, how much potential an individual 
fire would have so we can better triage putting resources, 
putting them in the right mix at the right time and the right 
place to keep the fires that have the potential from getting 
large. But I will check into the new satellite technology and 
get back with you.
    [Information regarding satellite technology for fires 
follows.]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Senator Cantwell. Mr. Geissler?
    Mr. Geissler. Senator Cantwell, I will say that that is 
actually a project that's very near and dear to my heart, 
because the early use of that was actually through the National 
Severe Storms Lab while I was still State Forester in Oklahoma 
and it's being used very effectively with the Oklahoma Forest 
Service right now. It is technology whereby the Weather Service 
can detect the fires and notify the state fire folks where 
they're located or where the potential is and it happens every 
five minutes that they're looking at it. And basically, funding 
toward the National Weather Service to pull this out would 
probably not be that substantial in order to be able to bring 
it to bear further across the country.
    There are other states that are utilizing this technology 
and, in fact, I believe, Colorado is one of those states that 
has just brought that online.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
    Ms. Kaster?
    Ms. Kaster. Senator, I'd be happy to get back to you as to 
DOI's use of the technology.
    But what I will say is that the Department has made it a 
priority to implement the Dingell Act which includes other 
technological requirements for DOI, and we're going to continue 
to do so.
    Senator Cantwell. Well, I just cannot emphasize this 
enough. We know that we are in the bullseye. We know what is 
coming. We want to be better prepared, and we want the 
technology to help us put out fires as soon as they start.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cantwell. You mentioned 
the improvements within the Dingell Act and one of those that 
we have been engaged in is the federal smoke monitoring which, 
again, is important from a health/safety perspective.
    Let's go to Senator Daines next.
    Senator Daines. Thank you, Chair Murkowski, and I want to 
thank you all for testifying and your leadership to protect the 
health and well-being of Americans while still meeting land 
management objectives during this pandemic.
    This pandemic coincided with the season dedicated to 
vegetation management, and wildfire preparation has now bled 
into wildfire season. Emergency response are already mobilized 
and exhausted so fighting the pandemic will be stretched thin 
this wildfire season. The COVID-19 pandemic has introduced new 
risks and challenges to wildland fire management, and I look 
forward to this timely discussion.
    In Montana 6.3 million acres of forest is at high or very 
high wildfire hazard potential--1.6 million of those acres are 
in close proximity to populated areas. To make matters worse, 
as Senator Cantwell just showed on the map there, Montana is 
expecting above average wildfire conditions this summer.
    Mr. Phipps and Ms. Kaster, I understand that COVID-19 
restrictions delayed fuel treatment projects. What are your 
agencies doing to make up for lost time and reduce fuel loads 
before we get into the middle of this fire season which looks 
like it may be a tough one?
    We will start with Mr. Phipps and then we will go to Ms. 
Kaster.
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for the question. I really agree that 
all these fuel treatments that the taxpayers have invested in 
are very critical for reducing risk particular to communities. 
We're trying to focus our treatments to actually reduce 
wildfire exposure to communities and yes, it's true that early 
in the pandemic that we paused some of our treatments, 
particularly in the Southeast, and now we are ramping up and on 
track for meeting this year's targets. It'll be challenging 
with the lost time, but that's what we're endeavoring to do. We 
believe that we're going to meet our timber target this year.
    Senator Daines. Alright, thanks.
    Ms. Kaster?
    Ms. Kaster. Thank you, Senator.
    The Department of the Interior continued forward its fuel 
treatments during COVID-19. In fact, in Montana we were able to 
do prescribed burns earlier this year. And so, we have made it 
an effort to continue that effort as it is critical to being 
prepared for the fire season, and we will continue our fuel 
treatments efforts even after the fire season concludes.
    Senator Daines. Last week the President signed an Executive 
Order directing agencies to expedite certain projects in 
response to this. What are your agencies doing to expedite 
management projects during this national emergency, and what 
can Congress do to help in that effort?
    Mr. Phipps. Currently we're under--we're reviewing that 
Executive Order and looking for opportunities for how to take 
advantage of it in the pursuit of treating, making our projects 
easier to accomplish.
    Ms. Kaster. We're also reviewing the Executive Order, but 
what I will say is the Department has already taken some 
proactive actions that are consistent with that direction 
including we recently finalized NEPA related to the Great Basin 
fuel breaks and we've been looking at creating more 
efficiencies within our existing authorities.
    Senator Daines. Mr. Phipps, in your testimony you write 
that 87 percent of fuel treatment projects have changed 
wildfire behavior. Clearly active management is the best tool 
in our tool belt to reduce the risk of wildfire. I am working 
on some bipartisan legislation that will ensure the subject 
matter experts in your agency have the ability to pursue these 
science-based projects without unnecessary challenge. My 
question is while some forest management activities were 
stalled during the pandemic the onslaught of lawsuits were not. 
There is a misconception that serial litigants only go after 
commercial timber projects. I am aware of the one Cottonwood-
related lawsuit that has held up two time-sensitive hazardous 
fuel projects for nearly ten years. This is also something I am 
pursuing in legislation that I will be introducing very soon.
    Mr. Phipps, how does the onslaught of litigation make our 
communities more vulnerable to wildfires?
    Mr. Phipps. It definitely slows things down. We pursue--
it's very challenging to operate at a rate fast enough to make 
a difference and the lawsuits do slow us down and we're looking 
at various strategies, including making a better effort at our 
NEPA and streamlining that to move our work right along.
    Senator Daines. I have one more question I am going to slip 
in here before I wrap up my time here.
    I am encouraged that both agencies are adopting an initial 
aerial attack strategy to minimize the need to bring large 
amounts of firefighters together reflecting the challenge, of 
course, with COVID-19. It is my understanding, however, that 
bureaucratic processes can limit the agency's ability to 
respond quickly to national emergencies like the one we face 
and increase the aerial fleet as appropriate. In fact, there is 
a Montana company with new resources that could increase 
firefighting capabilities by 15 percent but was told the 
contracting timeline will not allow for those resources to be 
used this season. This is hitting us on two fronts. Without a 
contract the company will have to let dozens of folks go during 
a time when the economic conditions are already tough. We won't 
have these critical resources putting out wildfires, protecting 
Montana communities this fire season, particularly when you saw 
the chart that Senator Cantwell put up there in terms of the 
forecast which does not look very good.
    My question is, I want to ensure your agency has the 
necessary tools to respond and fight fires as emergencies. Does 
the Forest Service have any flexibilities or the ability to 
fast-track CWN (Call When Needed) contracts to ensure robust 
aerial fleet during the pandemic?
    Mr. Phipps. I believe we do, Senator, and right now, I 
believe that just about any air tanker that meets performance 
and safety requirements is under some kind of contract either 
from the Forest Service or Department of the Interior or the 
state, but we'd be happy to look at the vendor that you're 
looking at and look into it further.
    Senator Daines. Ms. Kaster, about that?
    Ms. Kaster. I share my colleague's sentiments. We believe 
we have sufficient air resources, and I'm not familiar of the 
example that you cite but am happy to look into it further.
    Senator Daines. I can follow up with you on that as well 
just looking at how we are going to have to have all hands on 
deck here coming into this fire season, and we would like to 
chat more with you about that if you would. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Daines.
    Senator Daines. Thanks.
    The Chairman. Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Ms. Kaster, going back to Senator Wyden's 
question, who authorized the use of Park Police to clear 
protestors?
    Ms. Kaster. Senator, I'm here to discuss the Department's 
management of the wildfire program. What I'd say is that the 
jurisdiction of the Park Police falls under the National Park 
Service, and they'd be happy to answer those questions.
    Senator Heinrich. Well, let the record show that was a non-
answer. Do you know the answer to that question?
    Ms. Kaster. No, I do not.
    Senator Heinrich. Okay.
    Mr. Phipps, you said that you were concerned that you could 
overwhelm local testing capacity, but I would point out that 
until my office reached out to the Forest Service, the Forest 
Service had not actually coordinated with the New Mexico 
Department of Health to figure out a protocol for being able to 
manage the testing process as I would point out, six wildfires 
have now started in the state and are actively burning. So what 
is the status of the testing guidance between the Southwest 
Coordinating Group and the New Mexico Department of Health and 
when will that be finalized?
    Mr. Phipps. Earlier I agreed to look into it by the end of 
the week. I would agree, we do need a better, more 
comprehensive direction about that. We've been following the 
advice of the Interagency Medical Center, a committee that says 
don't rely on it. It doesn't mean that we can't, on a state-by-
state or county-by-county basis, have--try to make something 
happen.
    Senator Heinrich. Well, I would point out that our Governor 
has not taken the hands-off approach that you have articulated 
with regard to testing. It is one of the reasons why our 
numbers have been manageable, and I think that she would be 
very interested in making sure that we are not importing cases 
into the state in the midst of fire season in an environment 
where community spread is almost assured.
    At the end of the week, I would like to know that that 
guidance has been finalized because we need it now. Fires are 
burning now, and we are responding to them now.
    Mr. Phipps. I understand.
    [Information regarding finalized guidance follows.]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Heinrich. Is there a unified PPE procurement 
strategy for your departments or is that being done, sort of, 
region-by-region and team-by-team?
    Mr. Phipps. We have a national strategy trying to get our 
caches supplied for distribution and also each region and local 
area are pursuing PPE as well. So it's both.
    Senator Heinrich. I guess the reason why the hazard of, I 
think, both is what we saw in the midst of March and April 
where demand was very high and oftentimes FEMA and individual 
governors, individual states, were actually, sort of, pitted 
against each other and ended up bidding up the cost of things 
like an N-95 mask to unreasonable levels. And so, I would urge 
you to look at the greatest amount of coordination and, sort 
of, one-stop approach to that, maybe through the National 
Interagency Fire Center because I worry that you are going to 
end up paying more and getting less product if you find 
yourself in the same situation that many of us found ourselves 
in just a few weeks ago.
    I have also heard from individual constituents who work in 
wildland firefighting that they are concerned that they and 
their teams are not being provided with sufficient PPE. Are 
fire personnel currently limited in the number of masks, for 
example, that they are allowed per week?
    Mr. Phipps. I'd say no. We have in our Interagency 
Checklist for Mobilization--either ordering or receiving--
adequate PPE is one of the requirements. And so, if they don't 
have adequate equipment, personal protective equipment, they're 
not going to be on the fire.
    Senator Heinrich. Okay. I will follow up, because I am 
definitely hearing that from some constituents.
    Madam Chair, I think I am out of time, but I want to say 
how much I appreciate this hearing, because I think we have our 
work cut out for us.
    The Chairman. Yes, I think we do and it is not only looking 
at the maps and the intensity of what we might see but it is 
how we balance the other threat that we are dealing with right 
now that makes it even more challenging. So thank you for that.
    Let's go virtually to Senator McSally.
    Senator McSally. Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate it.
    Right now, Arizona is in the midst of dealing with both the 
pandemic and the wildfire season. The Sawtooth Fire near Gold 
Canyon, Arizona, is the Southwest region's first Type 1 fire of 
the season and the first major fire during the pandemic. The 
fire is now, thankfully, 80 percent contained and I want to say 
thanks to the firefighters and the first responders who led 
this effort and developed COVID mitigation strategies that can 
be implemented around the country. While Coronavirus is a new 
challenge, for sure, for our wildland firefighters, this is a 
group of professionals who are well versed in risk assessment 
and mitigation. Because Arizona's fire season starts earlier 
than most of the rest of the West, our fire crews have already 
been successful fighting wildfires while implementing COVID-19 
mitigation measures where possible.
    As the fire season progresses, I just want to encourage the 
debriefs and the lessons learned from our crews in Arizona will 
help those around the West better prepare successfully to 
battle wildfires. I just really encourage the Forest Service to 
reach out and get those lessons learned so that they can be 
used for others.
    One of the most effective ways to reduce the wildfire risk 
over the long haul, though, is to improve the health of our 
forest. In Arizona, the Four Forest Restoration Initiative, or 
4FRI, is looking to do just that by mechanically thinning more 
than a million acres of national forest. But in order to reach 
this target the project needs to rapidly increase production. 
At hearings in this Committee more than a year ago I questioned 
Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen about the delays with 
the 4FRI Phase 2 RFP and how the Forest Service planned to 
implement the reforms outlined in my Forestry bill and when we 
could finally expect a Phase 2 contract award. Since then, we 
have had nine amendments to the RFP and months and months of 
delays. I understand the RFP solicitation finally closed on May 
12th and the Forest Service is in the review process. I am sure 
you can see from the bids you received that Arizona's logging 
industry is eager to get to work restoring our national forests 
and preventing these wildfires.
    Mr. Phipps, when can you tell me that the Forest Service 
will award this Phase 2 contract and when will the forestry 
work actually begin under Phase 2?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for the question.
    As I understand it, it's on track to be awarded in 
September and the work could, if conditions are appropriate, 
could begin in the fall.
    Senator McSally. Okay. I hope that to be true and the 
concern on the ground, obviously, is that the work can start 
before they start to see the winter and the snow up in the area 
that needs to be mitigated. So September is the hope and you 
think that it is on track for that timeline still?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes.
    Senator McSally. Okay, thank you.
    While much of the focus has rightly been on how the 
Coronavirus may affect the health of firefighters, the pandemic 
has impacted the wildfire seasons in other ways. The social 
distancing orders have reinvigorated America's love for the 
outdoors. As stay-at-home orders have relaxed, Americans have 
flocked to campgrounds, national forests and public lands for 
healthy, socially distant recreation. We are seeing this around 
all the amazing places we have in Arizona. Many campgrounds and 
outdoor recreation sites in Northern Arizona's Cool Pines 
reported their busiest days ever over Memorial Day weekend this 
year. In general, this is a good trend. More people outdoors 
enjoying public land and rebuilding our rural economies, but 
more people in the forest also brings increased risk of human-
caused wildfires.
    Mr. Phipps, what are the federal foresters doing 
differently this year to encourage safe recreation on public 
lands which is greatly needed during this pandemic while 
mitigating the high wildfire risk that of more people, you 
know, we bring more people to the forest, there is a higher 
risk of human-caused fires?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for the question.
    What we're doing different, we've accelerated our ad 
campaign with the Smokey Bear messaging to get the word out 
that it's really important, as always, but more so in the 
pandemic to be careful with fire so we can reduce the amount of 
human starts which are the majority of fire starts, and we're 
increasing our patrols in the forest and, in some cases, where 
fire risk is at a particularly high level, we would be 
preemptively banning campfires, if needed.
    Senator McSally. Great. Thank you.
    I am out of time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator McSally.
    Let's go to Senator Hirono, please.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Right now, it is my understanding that our fire responders 
in Hawaii have adequate PPE to protect them from COVID-19. 
However, forecasters are expecting warmer and drier conditions 
than average in Hawaii from June through September. During that 
same time, drought conditions are expected to increase, 
especially on the leeward side of the islands with above-normal 
significant fire potential. Last year, devastating fires on 
Maui burned 25,000 acres, five times the area burned in 2018. 
Also, according to the USDA Forest Service's Wildfire Risk to 
Communities Assessment, homes in Hawaii are at greater risk to 
wildfire than 92 percent of other states. While it is 
challenging enough to prepare and be ready for another busy 
fire year across the state, we also have to add on top of that 
be prepared for COVID-19.
    Mr. Phipps, right now we do not know when the next 
supplemental bill to address the impact of COVID-19 will be 
signed into law. The State Fire Assistance Program at the U.S. 
Forest Service has, to date, not received additional funds to 
purchase PPE. Thinking about Hawaii and how our fire responders 
will likely need additional equipment in the future, is there a 
way that you can still help state fire agencies, for example, 
perhaps by federal agencies sharing excess PPE with the 
departments that are shorthanded? Could that happen?
    Mr. Phipps. That's a great question, thank you.
    I believe that's possible. Through our Interagency Fire 
Center we have PPE and it's--we're in it together and if 
there's an identified need for a particular state, be it 
Hawaii, I'm sure that that could be arranged.
    Senator Hirono. That answer says to me that if we 
anticipate the need for more PPEs that we should contact your 
agency earlier rather than later so that we can be sent 
additional PPEs.
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, indeed.
    Senator Hirono. Is that right?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, that's right and also the National 
Association of State Foresters could be helpful in that. We're 
all very interested in making sure that whatever stockpiles we 
have go to the right places at the right time.
    Senator Hirono. Yes, and as I mentioned, Hawaii is also one 
of the places where we are expecting a very busy fire season.
    Along the same lines, Ms. Kaster, are there opportunities 
for Interior to share excess PPE should state and local fire 
responders find themselves shorthanded?
    Ms. Kaster?
    Ms. Kaster. Thank you, Senator.
    Just as my colleague indicated, we coordinate the--
coordinate all this at an interagency level so we'd be happy to 
discuss that further with you and what I would say is we're 
really committed to supporting our interagency partners, our 
states, our local entities, as we fight fire this season.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you. I am glad to know that all of 
our agencies are more than willing to lend a helping hand.
    Mr. Geissler, in Hawaii and I am sure all across the 
nation, the COVID-19 pandemic has hit state and local budgets 
very hard, and I know that increasing funding for the state and 
volunteer fire assistance programs through the Forest Service 
via any future supplemental bill could help fire responders in 
Hawaii. I also know that the National Association of State 
Foresters also support this effort. Can you expand on the 
importance of assisting state and local fire responders, 
especially amid all of the current constraints presented by the 
pandemic?
    Mr. Geissler. Thank you, Senator.
    Yes, as you brought up, funding through state fire 
assistance and volunteer fire assistance is actually the 
easiest mechanism to actually help both state and local 
responders. The systems and processes are already in place to 
give those organizations direct funding without putting 
additional bureaucracy in place, and one thing we can do is 
that we work together in order to identify between states as 
well as within states what the need is, working with our own 
state departments of health. And as you heard earlier, the 
states are connected. We do talk and try to determine how one 
state can help another through our interagency agreements as 
well as through state compacts where we can move firefighters, 
if necessary, to various locations around the U.S., including 
Hawaii.
    So again, I appreciate your thoughts with regard to where 
the funding should go and that will be a direct impact on the 
local fire service who would need critical PPE.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you very much. It is reassuring to 
know that it is a coordinated effort and, of course, all the 
states are probably going to see a pretty big budget shortfall. 
That is one of the reasons that we need to push for another 
COVID bill that will provide funding for state and local 
governments with their budget shortfall. Of course, all that 
kind of funding can go toward the firefighting resources that 
we need. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hirono.
    Is Senator Hoeven with us? He is next in the queue. Let's 
see if he pops on.
    [No response.]
    The Chairman. If not, we will turn to Senator Barrasso, who 
is definitely in the queue here.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, thank you, Madam Chairman. 
Following up with Senator Hirono who gave us the weather report 
from Hawaii, I will tell you that the interstate between 
Cheyenne and Laramie is closed. We had six inches of snow last 
night. So there are lots of differences from state to state. It 
is an astonishing thing.
    Madam Chairman, last June you convened a hearing on the 
Wildfire Outlook for 2019. You do it every year. This year, as 
in most things, the wildfire season looks quite a bit 
different. Senator Hirono mentioned it. Others have mentioned 
it as well, Senator McSally. 2018--truly catastrophic fires; 
2019--my home State of Wyoming fared much better; 2020--
unprecedented times. Yellowstone National Park is now reopened 
as is Grand Teton National Park, we reopened May 18th. The fire 
risk expands beyond the normal outlook because of the concerns 
for our firefighters and their safety during this pandemic.
    Our forests are diverse ecosystems. As you all know, they 
need immediate attention. I want to talk a little bit about 
thinning, trying to thin overgrown stands, removing dead and 
downed timber. Getting this fuel load out of there, I believe, 
will significantly reduce fire risk. We will also make sure 
that we are spending federal dollars responsibly. So we need to 
coordinate action between local government, state government 
and federal agencies. That is the key to success. I think that 
requiring coordination among so many skilled partners like the 
witnesses today is helpful.
    So my question, and I will start with Ms. Kaster and then 
ask a follow-up to Mr. Phipps, is that President Trump issued 
an Executive Order in December 2018, Ms. Kaster. The order 
directed the Forest Service and the Department of the Interior 
to coordinate on a number of activities to increase the treated 
acres on federal land and then reduce, as a result, the risk of 
catastrophic wildfire. In your written testimony, you talked 
about Fiscal Year 2020, the Department of the Interior----
    [Feedback.]
    ----maybe Hoeven is back.
    [Laughter.]
    In the written testimony you mentioned that in Fiscal Year 
2020 the Department had completed about 620,000 acres of 
treatment, about half of all the planned treatments, and over 
80 percent of the benchmark which is established by the 
President's Executive Order. The National Interagency Fire 
Center updated their ``Significant Wildland Fire Potential 
Outlook.'' That is their map for August. Thankfully this year, 
Wyoming is only at normal risk for catastrophic wildfire. Could 
you just share with us how reports from groups like the 
National Interagency Fire Center and data from state agencies 
factor into your Department's planning for future fuel 
treatments?
    Ms. Kaster. Thank you for that question, Senator.
    We do rely on our state agencies and other entities to 
provide helpful data and what I will say is that for the 
Department of the Interior, it yields results. As you noted, we 
treated 1.4 million acres last year, 620,000 acres to date and 
we're going to continue to prioritize those efforts moving 
forward. They are critical. Like in Wyoming, we, this year, 
have planned some treatments of existing fuel breaks and we're 
going to build some new fuel breaks. So it's something we are 
definitely focused on, and we're going to continue to be 
focused on that effort moving forward.
    Senator Barrasso. And then, could I ask you for your 
follow-up as well, your recommendation, sir?
    Mr. Phipps. That's a great question.
    We factor that in in our risk assessment work which 
includes not only vegetation condition but weather patterns 
across different parts of the country to prioritize and there, 
even within any given state, there's a lot of variability. So 
to the extent we can we're trying to focus our treatments in a 
pattern and amount and intensity where it can really make a 
difference to reducing exposure to communities and other 
highly-valued resources.
    Senator Barrasso. You mentioned vegetation. I just want to 
follow up on that because in March, regions placed a pause on 
prescribed burns and we understand the reason behind that. Can 
you talk about specific changes in hazardous fuel management 
that maybe the Forest Service made to address the 2020 fire 
season from the approach you had in 2019?
    Mr. Phipps. Well, certainly our efforts are--we know that 
we're, we have a backlog. We're behind and so every--now, 
particularly given that we had to pause, we're really going 
after trying to get these planned treatments done. In addition 
to that, we're planning to include an increased effort to focus 
treatments in a more intentional way than we have done in the 
past years.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Barrasso.
    Senator King.
    Senator King. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    First, I want to thank and praise Mr. Phipps for knowing 
that Smokey Bear does not have a middle name. Our state 
forester informed me of that some years ago. ``The'' is not 
Smokey Bear's middle name, just for the record.
    [Laughter.]
    I want to ask a question that is somewhat touchy but I have 
heard for years that one of the problems with forest fires in 
the West and particularly in national forests is a lack of 
forest management, that there is a lot of debris, there is a 
lot of old growth, rotted trees, dead trees, trees on the 
ground. And my question is, what do we have for data on that? 
It seems to me this is something and maybe it exists and I just 
don't know about it. But it seems to me, Mr. Geissler, this is 
a question to you as well. Couldn't we do apples to apples 
comparison between relatively low-managed U.S. Forest Service 
land and privately-managed land and see if there are 
comparisons that when the climate, you know, you can adjust for 
the climate and all of those other factors?
    It just seems to me this is an area where there ought to be 
data and that is what we ought to be basing our decisions upon. 
It worries me that we may be, and of course, once a fire 
starts, it does not respect the lines between U.S. Forest 
Service and the private sector. So give me your thoughts on 
that issue.
    Mr. Phipps. Another great question. We look at, when we say 
lack of forest management, that's true in part. One of the 
greatest problems is that most of the fire regimes in the West 
or throughout the country require frequent, low intensity 
ground fire. Pre-settlement the forests looked really different 
than they do now. And so, we need forest management to reduce 
density and then we must return fire to the landscape. You have 
to do both.
    Senator King. In Maine we call that pre-commercial 
thinning.
    Mr. Phipps. Pre-commercial or commercial thinning to reduce 
density and then run prescribed fire through those areas. 
That's what it will take to get more fire resilience on the 
landscape.
    Senator King. But is part of the problem that we don't 
harvest enough on federal lands? That there is just--they are 
just allowed to go by themselves and that creates the 
undergrowth and the fuel?
    Mr. Phipps. That's part of the problem given our--a lot of, 
there's been a lot of settlement into these areas, and we have 
to suppress fire. Naturally, pre-settlement fire would roam on 
the landscape doing a lot of the work. But we've been 
suppressing fire for decades, and that primarily accounts for 
the buildup in hazardous fuels is the lack of natural fire. And 
that's why now we really need forest management to open up the 
vegetation so we can return prescribed fire to the landscape in 
a very careful and planned way.
    Senator King. Maine is the most forested state in the 
country, and yet we have relatively, except for a catastrophic 
fire in 1947, limited problem with fires. But I don't know that 
we do prescribed burning, as you suggest. It is more intensive 
management and it is all, virtually all, privately owned. Do 
you really need fires to prevent fires?
    Mr. Phipps. Well, it's highly variable by different forest 
type, different forest ecosystems. The forests in the Northeast 
are different than the ones in the West.
    Senator King. Sure.
    Mr. Phipps. And forest management there or fires on the 
East Coast generally are now more lower probability, wind-
driven events where we can get, if you get the right conditions 
and a wind, you have quite a problem. But it's not the same 
type of risk than we see in California or Nevada or anywhere in 
the West.
    Senator King. Well, what I would like to see is comparative 
studies of 10,000-acre plots, U.S. Forest Service versus 
private in the same geographic region so that the climate 
factors are the same and the timber mix is the same. I would 
urge you to either work on studies such as that, I think that 
would be very informative, or to collect such studies if they 
have been done and forward them to the Committee.
    Thank you for your testimony.
    [Information regarding forest fire studies follow.]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator King. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator King.
    I believe we have Senator Hoeven with us.
    Senator Hoeven. Chairman?
    The Chairman. Go ahead, Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Hoeven. Can you hear me now?
    The Chairman. I can. You are coming in.
    Senator Hoeven. Great. I am sorry, I thought Dr. Barrasso 
was ahead of me there and so that is why I was not ready to go, 
but I appreciate you calling on me. Thanks so much for holding 
this hearing. I would like to start my questions with Deputy 
Chief Phipps.
    The first one is in North Dakota. We do a tremendous amount 
of work with unmanned aerial systems, UAS, through our test 
site, the Northern Plains test site in Grand Forks and UND 
School of Aerospace and Aviation, and our state partners, our 
Guard, flies unmanned aircraft as well. So we are very deep 
into the whole UAS world. I would ask, can you discuss the role 
that UAS have in emergency response and restoration activities 
in regard to what the USDA Forest Service is doing in terms of 
not only combating forest fires, but you know, prevention as 
well?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for the question.
    We're actually very excited about new opportunity and, 
under the Dingell Act, we've recently with the Department of 
the Interior, made a decision to invest in a robust capability 
of using unmanned aerial systems. And how we would use them, 
they're primarily very good for mapping, getting intelligence, 
going into places that are difficult to access in the fire 
environment. That's really helpful. It's safer to use a drone 
most of the time than to use scouts. And in general forest 
management, it's very helpful for the reconnaissance work 
gathering information so we can plan new projects.
    Senator Hoeven. Is there a role for them while you are 
actually fighting the fires as well?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes. In monitoring what's going on oftentimes 
we use helicopters but it's lower exposure to pilots and other 
responders to use a drone than it is any other method and that 
we're looking forward to using those when we get them in. We 
can also use them for aerial ignition for prescribed fire.
    Senator Hoeven. Is there something that we can do to 
interface through our test site in Grand Forks with USDA on 
that issue? Is there a way that we can, like I say, get 
involved with USDA in developing that----
    Mr. Phipps. We would welcome the partnership. We could look 
into that.
    Senator Hoeven. Would you be the person to contact?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes.
    Senator Hoeven. Okay, very good, we will do that. We will 
follow up.
    My other question is what about--we are dry in Western 
North Dakota and we have the grasslands out there as well. What 
are you doing to work with ranchers to make sure that you are 
responsive to both in terms of any controlled burns so that you 
don't have an issue there, but then also as far as making sure 
coordination on the firefighting challenges?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you for that.
    Our direction to our field leaders is to coordinate, 
coordinate, coordinate--share risk before fire comes and that's 
particularly true anywhere there's a national grassland or 
national forest. That's what we do and there's a lot of time 
spent in developing agreements, doing scenario planning to help 
get prepared for each fire season.
    Senator Hoeven. Well, I would ask that you be responsive to 
those ranchers. They are out there on the ground. They are 
certainly concerned about any controlled burns, particularly 
when it is dry, but then also in terms of working with them on 
any firefighting is very important. So I would ask for your 
commitment to work very closely with----
    Mr. Phipps. Yeah, we can do that.
    Senator Hoeven. ----the ranchers and the grazing 
associations.
    The other question I have is for Deputy Assistant Secretary 
Kaster and that is in regard to working with the tribes on the 
reservation as far as firefighting and the coordination effort 
to make sure that you are responsive to the tribes, to BIA and 
their firefighting communities.
    Ms. Kaster. Tribes are a critical component of our ability 
to fight fires and we do work with them, both at the 
reservation level and also, as you mentioned, in coordination 
with the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
    Senator Hoeven. What are you doing to make sure you have 
outreach and that you are proactive in terms of areas that may 
be particularly dry this year?
    Ms. Kaster. Senator, I'd have to get back to you on the 
specifics of what BIA has been doing in terms of treatments 
with tribes, but I know overarching, the Department has been 
very focused on ensuring that across all DOI lands, including 
with tribes, that we are being thoughtful and coordinated in 
our ability to prevent fire ahead of time.
    Senator Hoeven. Alright. Thank you. And again, thank you, 
Madam Chairman, I appreciate it.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hoeven.
    Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate 
everyone being here today. I have been bouncing between here 
and the Banking Committee, so I so appreciate the written 
testimonies as well.
    From Nevada, as you know, wildfires and how we address 
them, manage them in the middle of a pandemic as well, is 
crucial and important for state. So let me start with a couple 
of things. I know the Forest Service and the BLM in Nevada have 
contracted additional air assets to help combat potential loss 
of ground crews that are currently based in Nevada, and the 
Nevada Division of Forestry is looking into how they may be 
able to assist with bolstering contracted air assets to assist 
in Nevada.
    So let me ask a question to the panel. What do you and 
other states need from federal partners to increase air tanker 
support, because I know how crucial that is for my state? I 
will open it up to the panel and maybe, Deputy Chief Phipps, if 
you don't mind starting the discussion?
    Mr. Phipps. Thank you.
    We've been working quite diligently. Air tankers, air 
resources have been a continuing challenge. We believe this 
year, like in my testimony, I said, we have up to 35 large air 
tankers. I think it's important to understand that we have 
also, access to in the interagency environment, for example, 
the Department of the Interior has 100 single engine aircraft 
or air tankers under contract and depending on the situation 
and the need, we have access to that and we're well underway 
for our planning and preparedness for the upcoming Western fire 
season.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Okay. So nothing else that we can do 
at a federal level to assist you in that space?
    Mr. Phipps. Not at this time.
    Senator Cortez Masto. That is good to hear. Thank you.
    In Nevada, as you are well aware, we have--and actually the 
Chairwoman has been out to Tahoe and she has seen this--we have 
extensive use of a fire camera network to monitor and detect 
our wildfires. We have the Alert Tahoe and the Alert Wildfire 
programs.
    Let me ask. In light of the ongoing pandemic, would you say 
that an expansive fire detection camera network would have an 
even larger role to play right now among new technology that 
makes it available to determine where fires may be starting?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes. Anything that we can do to detect a fire 
and mobilize resources, the sooner, the better. We believe, as 
mentioned, that keeping the fire small and it has everything to 
do with that very early on, after ignition, getting adequate 
resources to extinguish, contain the fire. And so any earlier 
detection is an advantage.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Ms. Kaster, the Alert Wildfire 
recently received federal funding assistance from the U.S. 
Forest Service, but it is also getting assistance from the 
Department of the Interior as well. Can you tell me the status 
on the funding of this program? It is the Alert Wildfire 
program I just talked about.
    Ms. Kaster. I'm happy to look into it, Senator, and get 
back to you.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, I appreciate that, thank 
you so much.
    Let me jump now to both testing as well as vaccines. There 
is a day when we are going to have a vaccine and I am curious. 
I know my Nevada Division of Forestry is working closely with 
the Department of Emergency Management in the state to list 
their emergency responder staff as priority for these, for 
these vaccines. I am curious what the Forest Service and the 
BLM are doing in thinking ahead to the day when we have the 
vaccine. Are you preparing for that and what is your 
preparation?
    Mr. Phipps or Ms. Kaster?
    Mr. Phipps. That's a great question. We've been imagining 
that. To be quite honest we've been somewhat focused on the 
next few months for the fire season, understanding that we're, 
you know, we refer to the fire year, but we are very much 
looking forward to having the vaccine and getting our 
responders vaccinated so we can put this particular risk of the 
pandemic behind us because there's enough risk in the wildland 
fire environment to begin with, so.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Right. So it would make sense for the 
first responders to have early access to the vaccine. Do you 
agree with that?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, I agree with that.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Ms. Kaster?
    Ms. Kaster. Senator, CDC guidance has actually, in our 
coordination with CDC, they have prioritized firefighting staff 
and we'll continue to work with them to do so as they really 
are our front line, folks that are really just going to be 
crucial this upcoming fire season.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank 
you to the panelists, I notice my time is up. I will submit the 
rest of my questions for the record.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator. We will look forward to 
those.
    To Ms. Kaster's final point there, recognizing that CDC has 
recognized the critical nature and the critical status for 
purposes of early access to the vaccine, one would think that 
that guidance would then follow through when it comes to 
testing. So know that that is a great concern of this 
Committee. I think you heard it repeated by several. I do think 
that what we are demonstrating in Alaska is a path forward. Now 
granted, we don't share those common borders with the other 
states, but I think aggressive testing is one way that can give 
that assurance when it is just not possible to follow those CDC 
guidelines related to social distancing and sufficient hygiene. 
So know that we are going to continue to press you on this.
    I am going to ask one, maybe one and a half, final 
questions here as we wrap.
    Recognizing that we do have resource mobilization issues 
that we have talked through here and you do have other concerns 
that you don't have in ``a normal'' fire year, as we see this 
fire season underway in Alaska and coming now on here in the 
Lower 48, what is the status of our hiring numbers and working 
with both state and federal?
    I am going to turn to Mr. McDonald in Alaska to talk about 
what we are seeing on the ground right now. Do we have the 
folks that we need and able to assist? I know that it is really 
a moving target as we look to what may come in these next weeks 
ahead, and then I would like to ask the same question to our 
federal partners.
    Mr. McDonald.
    Mr. McDonald. For state resources we were on target for 
bringing people back to work. We went through a quarantine 
period and some remote working, but we are on track with 
getting our crews ready for this fire season. Our cooperators, 
the federal agency that we work with, are as well, their crews 
are on step at this point.
    The concerns I do have and for Alaska and specifically as 
with our village crews, our emergency firefighting crews, those 
numbers have already been dropping over the last decade for 
various reasons and then this year with the COVID overstory 
those are even taking a greater hit. And the concern, as you 
brought up, is if those crews leave a village or to be in 
contact with COVID and then return to that village and 
reintroducing that into a community like that, that's a real 
concern that we have in Alaska. We've worked through that 
process. We'll continue to work through that process. We're 
working with those village crews and those communities on 
options and some of that does and will include testing. So I 
will say, for us, that's probably our biggest hit to 
availability is with those village resources that we count on 
in Alaska.
    The Chairman. Well thank you for raising that because that 
is something that, you know and many of our federal partners 
know, I have continued to push on the need to ensure that these 
native fire crews coming out of the villages which are real 
experts in their region are protected. They know the conditions 
on the ground better than anybody else out there, and they are 
true professionals. So it is concerning to me, perhaps even 
alarming, to think that because of COVID we may be in a 
situation where we lose the few fire crews, village fire crews, 
that we have in place now.
    We have seen over the years our federal partners relying on 
them less and less which is not the direction I think we need 
to go and with this fear, it is not only the great benefit that 
they bring during active fire season but also what they can do 
to help us when we are doing off season fuels mitigation work. 
Know that this is going to continue to be an issue for me in 
how we can make sure that our village fire crews are stood up 
every year--that they get the training that they need but also 
in a safe work environment.
    Mr. Phipps, can you speak to what we are seeing with regard 
to recruitment with our Lower 48 crews?
    Mr. Phipps. Yes, thank you.
    We are, the Forest Service, is on track to hire in most of 
our regions. We are having a bit of a challenge in Region 5 
because of the competitive nature in salaries, but we're hoping 
to get up to operational levels there. We have heard from some 
of our partners in the states that some of the inmate crews may 
not be available this year and so, system, wildland fire system 
wide, there is some concern that we won't have exactly the same 
capacity as last year, but the Forest Service is working 
diligently to try to get all the firefighters we can.
    The Chairman. Well I would like more detail on this. 
Alaska, as I mentioned, is kind of its own team up there, 
supplemented by the Lower 48 crews which we greatly appreciate. 
But when you look at the maps that Senator Cantwell showed, 
this is going to be a tough year if our predictions are right 
and usually those predictions are not too far off. To hear that 
we are not quite sure, in fact, maybe we are sure, that we are 
not going to be able to get those who have come from other 
places before--whether it is through our prisons or otherwise--
and just to recognize that as a firefighter, again, inherently 
dangerous work, but now additional threats through COVID, that 
that is going to impact our recruitment efforts. We need to 
know what this game plan is to gear up so that when it hits, 
whether it is Arizona or Washington at the same time things are 
going off in Alaska, the last year we got lucky. We got lucky 
because Alaska really went off at a time when the Lower 48 was 
very quiet, so we were able to cover everything, 3,000 fire 
workers up in Alaska. We were able to cover those fires because 
we didn't have the activity in the Lower 48.
    We can't count on luck to be a strategy when it comes to 
resourcing these wildland fires because we know that wildland 
urban interface, they don't care. The Santa Ana winds that I 
mentioned, they push it into the biggest metropolitan area. I 
know that for our state, our local, our tribal, our federal, we 
have got to have a better handle on our level of preparedness 
for this season. So I want to have more conversation on that.
    I am going to end with one last question and this may be to 
Mr. McDonald again, but I am very active with my co-chair of 
the Arctic Conference, very active with the Arctic 
Parliamentarians, and we discuss all kinds of matters related 
to Arctic concerns--infrastructure, climate--but one of the 
things that has been on our agenda in many meetings of late has 
been what we are seeing with these northern wildfires. Last 
year, Russia had significant, significant wildfires. Our 
friends in Canada have seen increased wildfires. In Norway, in 
their forests, they are seeing an increased level of fires. And 
it is not just in the north, we saw Australia that was truly on 
fire last year and we were able, as a country, to be able to 
help Australia with their efforts.
    I raise this because it is a matter of global concern here, 
and the question that was raised in a call that I had with 
Arctic Parliamentarians last week was to what extent are 
agreements in place to either share fire crews or aviation 
assets across our international borders whether it is U.S. and 
Canada, but just an understanding here of these implications of 
the fires. Right now we have a ``no travel'' restriction unless 
it is essential between the United States and Canada. I am 
certainly hopeful that we would have had conversations between 
Canada and Alaska, our states along the Canadian border in the 
Lower 48, about how will we move crews if we need to be moving 
crews? How will we move the aviation assets if we need to do 
so?
    Can you give me some assurance, or Mr. McDonald, can you 
tell me if we are at the ready when it comes to these fires 
that cross beyond our national borders?
    Mr. McDonald. Well, I can speak for Alaska. We are part of 
what is called the Northwest Compact which includes most of the 
Western states and a lot of the Canadian providences where we 
share resources including aircraft or air tankers or scoopers, 
and we have a very good relationship with all those Compact 
members. That's a tool that we use every year to import 
firefighters and aerial assets to Alaska and then return when 
it's the Lower 48 season, we send our firefighters too at their 
request.
    I was talking to State Forester George Geissler as well 
just this morning, and we've got some of his firefighters in 
Alaska right now helping out through that Compact. So that 
works very well for us, and we rely on those assets to get us 
through our seasons like last year. And as you mentioned, the 
seasons are just continuing to get worse through climate 
change. Last year was a really good example of the most 
devastating and the highest fire indices we've ever witnessed 
in Alaska. And it was an eye opener, I think, for a lot of 
people but, yeah. So that's, so we do have those Compacts in 
place and available. Those resources are available to us.
    The Chairman. Yes, I think we got the attention of many in 
this country. I believe it was a New York Times article about 
the Arctic zombie fires where the fires can literally continue 
for years on end. They go underground during the winter into 
the peat tundra and then in the spring they will just be little 
poofs of fire that, if the conditions are right, can ignite and 
these zombie fires in the Arctic, in Alaska and Russia 
particularly, are getting some attention there.
    I am going to end by an acknowledgment of two individuals 
that have given extraordinary careers when it comes to the 
forestry community in my state. Chris Maisch is our Alaska 
State Forester. He has spent 36 years serving Alaska. He has 
been our State Forester for the past 15 years. He has actually 
said he is going to retire. I think this time he actually means 
it, but he has been just an enormous asset for us in the state. 
And also, Shawna Legarza, who is the Fire and Aviation Director 
at the Forest Service. Shawna has over 25 years in fire 
management. She was a hotshot crew member herself. These are 
exceptional individuals who have really committed themselves to 
the cause which is providing for the safety of so many, 
ensuring not only safe communities but that our environments 
continue and our forests continue in healthy conditions. So I 
want to acknowledge their considerable work to the effort and 
to the cause.
    With that, I thank you. We have had a good hearing. We have 
had good participation from Committee members. I think our 
witnesses have heard very clearly, we are concerned about how 
we can ensure that the safety of our firefighters out on the 
line, both from fire as well as from COVID, how we can have 
access to more testing, the assets that we need to have in 
place and working with our federal partners, our state 
partners, our tribal and local to do just that.
    This is a little bit concerning, every time we have this 
fire hearing, because you are never quite sure what the season 
is actually going to look like. But if those maps don't get all 
of our attention and kind of kick us in the rear to say, let's 
make sure that we have these fire crews that are ready and not 
base this strategy on a hope that we are going to just be hit 
in a manner and in an order that we can track and stay on top 
of because Mother Nature doesn't usually care.
    With that, we stand adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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