    [Senate Hearing 116-364]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 116-364

     THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET REQUEST FOR THE USDA FOREST SERVICE FOR FISCAL
                                   YEAR 2021

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                         ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                               FEBRUARY 25, 2020

                                   __________

     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                               ______

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
     40-910               WASHINGTON : 2021

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
    CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
    LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                          Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                         Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
                Nick Matiella, Senior Professional Staff Member
                     Renae Black, Democratic Staff Director
                    Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
            Bryan Petit, Democratic Senior Professional Staff Member

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Alaska....     1
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from
      West Virginia..................................................     3

                                    WITNESS

    Christiansen, Victoria, Chief, USDA Forest Service...............     4

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Christiansen, Victoria:
        Opening Statement............................................     4
        Written Testimony............................................     6
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    56
    Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    McSally, Hon. Martha:
        ``Modernizing 4FRI Implementation: Progress After Two Years--
          Workshop Final Report'' prepared by the Ecological
          Restoration Institute, Northern Arizona University dated 2/
          11/2020....................................................    16
    Murkowski, Hon. Lisa:
        Opening Statement............................................     1

     THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET REQUEST FOR THE USDA FOREST SERVICE FOR FISCAL
                                   YEAR 2021

                                  ----------

                           TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 2020

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa
    Murkowski, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM ALASKA

        The Chairman. Morning everyone. The Committee will come to
    order.
        This morning we will consider the President's budget
    request for the U.S. Forest Service for FY 2021.
        Chief Christiansen, it is good to be able to welcome you
    back to the Committee. Thank you for being here. We say around
    here that the President's budget request is just that, it is a
    request. It does start the annual budget process. It gives us
    here in Congress the opportunity to learn about the
    Administration's priorities and how it would carry them out,
    but ultimately it is up to us to determine what programs to
    fund and what levels.
        Although this year's budget request is far from perfect, I
    agree that the priority must be on wildland fire management and
    improving the health of our forests. I am encouraged the
    Administration is proposing to invest significantly in
    hazardous fuel reduction and other active forest management
    activities. We know such investments pay dividends in reducing
    the risk of severe wildfire. Hopefully we will see this
    important work planned and carried out without any disruptions
    thanks to our work on the Consolidated Appropriations Act of
    2018 which provided new budget authority to fight wildfires.
    The fire fix will be available for the first time in FY 2020,
    and this budget request would make use of it for FY 2021.
        The 2019 fire season was relatively mild in the Lower 48
    with few notable exceptions, but in Alaska last summer is going
    to be going down in the history books. We had over 600 fires
    that burned over 2.5 million acres and we had the nation's
    costliest fire of the year, the Swan Lake Fire on the Kenai
    Peninsula. Thousands of firefighters from across Alaska, 46
    states, Canada and even Puerto Rico fought fires in Alaska last
    summer. Hazardous fuel reduction projects and fuel breaks
    provided effective help with firefighters as they beat back
    fires and prevented them from spreading into the communities.
    But it was a tough, tough summer for us.
        As more and more of our forests die off due to beetle
    infestations across Alaska and elsewhere, this work becomes
    more urgent. We know that we need more of it. And Chief, you
    certainly know that fires have no boundaries there. What we can
    do to work together is important. I do appreciate the Forest
    Service acknowledging its cooperative work with the State of
    Alaska on the beetle infestation in its budget justification
    but I am dismayed that this request proposes to cut the overall
    program, the Forest Health Management on Cooperative Lands, and
    other state and private forestry programs. Even with the fire
    fix in place, wildfire will continue to consume a large
    percentage of the budget, so I am pleased the Forest Service
    wants to invest in building capacity to more effectively use
    technology and wildland fire management. That will help ensure
    that we are smart as we fight the fires, always keeping
    firefighter safety at the forefront.
        I think we owe appreciation to Senator Gardner and Senator
    Cantwell for their work on the wildfire technology provisions
    in the Dingell Act which was signed just about a year ago.
        Another area where I think we all know we need to do more
    is with recreation. Recreation is the single greatest use of
    our national forests, but this request does not accurately
    reflect that, in my view. In Alaska, I routinely hear about the
    demand for new recreation uses and corresponding difficulties
    in getting permits for them. I was just in Southeast this past
    week and, again, heard that repeated. Last year we held a
    hearing on recreation and heard about the need for permitting
    reform. I am still hopeful that we can work together to make
    some meaningful progress here in Congress.
        Similar to recreation, I remain concerned that agency
    initiatives to create a positive workforce are not adequately
    articulated in this request. Time and time again I have urged
    Forest Service leadership to cultivate a work environment that
    is free of harassment and retaliation. I am also concerned by
    the increasing rate of suicide among wildland firefighters.
    These issues are a priority here on this Committee. I think
    they are a priority of all of us. I look forward to hearing how
    the Forest Service intends to address them.
        So in wrapping up, I think I would be remiss if I didn't
    mention the Forest Service work on the Roadless. The agency
    states specific rulemaking for the Tongass has always been
    about reasonable access for every local stakeholder in the 32
    islanded communities in Southeast Alaska. Not just timber,
    barely timber if we are actually being honest here, but also
    transportation, tourism, mining and even renewable energy. So
    my thanks to you, Chief, as well as Secretary Perdue and all
    who are working on this Rule. I know it is not easy, and I
    think that sometimes your good work is frequently
    mischaracterized. I appreciate, again, all that you are doing
    with that.
        Let me turn to my colleague, Senator Manchin, for his
    comments.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Chairman Murkowski, and I want
    to thank you for convening the hearing today on the Forest
    Service budget request for Fiscal Year 2021. I would also like
    to welcome Chief Christiansen to our Committee and thank her
    staff for being here. I had a nice conversation with you
    yesterday, and I look forward to you coming back to Monongahela
    Forest, and we will make sure you see some really special
    areas.
        Aside from being beautiful, the Monongahela, like most of
    West Virginia's forests, is truly a working forest. It provides
    fish and game for sportsmen, timber for our mills, recreational
    opportunities for the hikers, jobs in our communities and
    serves as a watershed for four states. Forest Service lands
    across the country are similarly managed for multiple uses
    including supporting local economies, providing timber and
    conserving special areas for future generations to enjoy. Of
    course, all this can only be accomplished if the Forest Service
    has the funding that it needs. Rural communities all across the
    country support and demand our national forests, and we owe it
    to our constituents to deliver a responsible budget.
        Some of the budget this Administration has proposed would
    do just that, but much of it doesn't. For example, I am glad to
    see the steps that you are proposing to take with regards to
    firefighting. They would significantly reduce our federal
    spending and increase the safety of firefighters. On the other
    hand, I do not support the proposal to zero out funding for the
    Land and Water Conservation Fund (LWCF). I appreciate the
    special exhibit that you included in your budget showing that
    in Fiscal Year 2019 LWCF was used to acquire 19,515 acres
    specifically to enhance access for hunting, fishing and
    shooting in national forests. Just last year the Public Lands
    package was signed into law, securing permanent authorization
    for LWCF. I followed up by introducing a bipartisan bill which
    many of my colleagues have signed on to, with 52 co-sponsors to
    be exact, which will require permanent and full funding for
    LWCF at the $900 million level and remains to this day one of
    my top priorities.
        I was also proud to join many of my colleagues on the
    Committee to co-sponsor the Restore Our Parks Act. This bill
    would provide over $6 billion to the National Park Service to
    address its deferred maintenance backlog. The Forest Service
    backlog, as you know, is over $5 billion, similar in size to
    the National Park Service. I wanted to note that the
    President's budget request includes a nearly identical proposal
    except that it would direct ten percent of the funding to the
    Forest Service to address its deferred maintenance backlog.
    While I am glad to see that the Administration is thinking
    about the problem, I am very disappointed to see that, at the
    same time, the budget proposes a reduction in annual
    maintenance funding. That is something we can't have happen.
    Reductions in maintenance funding are what caused the
    maintenance backlog, and it will just grow worse. Adequate
    funding needs to be built into the budget, or we will continue
    to find ourselves in a no-win situation.
        Lastly, I want to complement the Chief on her ambitious
    goal for timber harvesting. I know that the Forest Service will
    conduct these harvests in a sustainable way as required by our
    environmental laws, and I am pleased that you are partnering
    with states to help get this work done. As a former governor, I
    can tell you that the partnerships you are forming with states
    make your agency stronger and able to do more than you can do
    by yourself.
        With that, I look forward to hearing about Chief
    Christiansen's priorities and discussing the investments that
    we need to make in our national forests. And I want to thank
    you, Madam Chairman, and I look forward to hearing from Chief
    Christiansen.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
        Chief, it is good to have you back before the Committee. We
    welcome your presentation here this morning. If you would like
    to proceed, and then we will have an opportunity for some
    questions, but thank you.

              STATEMENT OF VICTORIA CHRISTIANSEN, CHIEF,
                          USDA FOREST SERVICE

        Ms. Christiansen. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Ranking Member
    Manchin and members of the Committee, for inviting me back to
    testify on the President's 2021 budget for the Forest Service.
    Today I will share details on the hard choices that were made
    in our budget request and focus on three key areas: our
    progress to employ tools, authorities and funding to confront
    threats to forests and support communities; the work in front
    of us and the challenges that we must overcome; and, our
    steadfast efforts and progress to champion a strong workforce
    and healthy workplace.
        We thank the Congress for approving the 2020 budget. We're
    putting funds, new authorities and tools to good use. Trend
    lines point upward as we treat more forest acres, reduce
    hazardous fuels and support rural economies. We are on track to
    meet our timber target, and so far we are outpacing last year's
    work to reduce hazardous fuels. Our shared stewardship approach
    is gaining momentum in spirit and new agreements. We're working
    across boundaries to do work at the right scale in the right
    places.
        We've signed 12 agreements with states and one with the
    Western Governors' Association. Twenty-six agreements are in
    progress. We've executed 245 good neighbor agreements in 38
    states and doubled timber volume. We aim to build on our
    progress in 2021. The President's $7.38 billion budget
    emphasizes our critical work. It focuses work to reduce
    wildland fire risk, improve forest conditions, increase access
    and contribute to local economies and it advances our shared
    stewardship approach but it does reflect tough choices and
    tradeoffs.
        In addition, we are seeking solutions and innovations to
    overcome obstacles that slow our work. We're nearing completion
    of the reforms that will ease process burdens and reduce costs.
    This spring we will finish new rules that streamline decision
    processes, meet our environmental responsibility and get more
    work done. Efforts to modernize budget processes, increase
    efficiencies in firefighting, integrate science and improve
    internal systems put us in a position to better deliver our
    mission. We also appreciate your help in addressing challenges
    of the Cottonwood ruling. It has delayed work on the ground and
    unending analysis and redundant consultation.
        We're also seeking ways to maintain a reliable
    infrastructure, an essential for groundwork and public access.
    With over 370 miles of road and 159,000, excuse me, that's
    370,000 miles of road and 159,000 miles of trails, the Forest
    Service manages the largest transportation system of all the
    federal land management agencies. These roads, trails and
    bridges make up the largest part of our $5.2 billion
    maintenance backlog. We need functioning roads and bridges to
    treat forests, fight fires and reduce fire risk. Rural
    Americans need functioning roads and bridges for their daily
    use, for outdoor activities and emergency response.
        Lastly, our mission's success depends on a highly-skilled,
    motivated workforce. We will continue our work to end sexual
    harassment and retaliation. We are making progress and are more
    resolute than ever in our commitment to provide a safe,
    harassment-free, respectful workplace. We have taken actions.
    We are improving but we most go further to permanently change
    our culture to one that is based on dignity, equality and
    respect for all. Our strong workforce is key to our aim to
    create a gold standard for public service and mission delivery.
    It ensures we make good on the investments of this Congress and
    provide the services and sound stewardship this nation
    deserves.
        Thank you. I'd be happy to answer questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Christiansen follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Chief, we appreciate your quick
    review here, but we will have an opportunity to fill it in with
    more questions.
        I want to start off with a couple of Alaska-specific
    issues. You have mentioned and my colleague, Senator Manchin,
    also acknowledged that the Administration is proposing its
    highest national timber target in decades here but that goal,
    as you probably know, just really doesn't extend to us in
    Alaska. We are at the lowest point that we have seen in our
    state's history since we have been logging there and among,
    certainly among the lowest in the nation here. Only 5.6 million
    board feet were sold in Alaska in 2019. This would be 0.14
    percent of this year's goal.
        Again, recognizing that this is coming from our nation's
    largest national forest. So, again, I just came from Southeast.
    I was down in Ketchikan, in Juneau, in Sitka, obviously
    discussions about Roadless but really a broader concern about
    whether or not we are going to be able to get any reliable
    volume out of the Tongass given what we are seeing.
        What steps, can you share with me, is the Forest Service
    taking to reverse this trend on the timber in Alaska?
        Ms. Christiansen. Thank you, Senator. I hear you loud and
    clear. I, too, have concerns and I've dug pretty deep into the
    uniqueness in Alaska, myself and, you know, took the time to
    come up this summer----
        The Chairman. Which we appreciated.
        Ms. Christiansen. ----and have a look myself.
        What I can assure you is that we do remain committed to a
    reliable and a continuous supply of timber for Southeast
    Alaska. It's a part of the economy and the way of life--we
    really do get that. And I'm pushing our folks to really work
    innovatively on how we can address some multiple challenges,
    quite frankly, in doing business in this island communities.
    There are--it often has some more logistical challenges. It is
    more expensive, and we need to really be smart and we need to
    be coordinated.
        In addition, there's significant market variability. I
    think you know that right now the market is very soft. The 30
    million board foot sale that was a good neighbor sale in the
    State of Alaska is on hold right now because of market
    conditions. It's compounded by some retaliatory tariffs in
    China. And, you know, there is a significant amount of
    controversy and lawsuits in Alaska. And it's not that we don't
    have those challenges other places, Senator.
        So we really looked hard on how we, as the Forest Service,
    the stewards, as you say, of the largest national forest, we
    can be a convening capacity to bring multiple interests
    together to look at the watershed, fisheries, recreation
    values, in addition to the timber values, find the common
    ground and have enough available, cleared, environmentally
    cleared, product that we can be responsive to the different
    market changes. As you know we took a large landscape approach,
    the first with the Prince of Wales large landscape project. It
    brought a lot of collaborative capacity, a lot of common ground
    by many interests were brought together. Unfortunately, it's
    been enjoined and so that's the biggest reason why we couldn't
    offer the amount of timber we intended to do. We're looking at
    the situation there and we're trying to adjust accordingly, and
    we're committed to continue to work on this to be flexible and
    meet the needs of Alaska.
        The Chairman. Well, Chief, I have not interrupted. I have
    allowed you to try to give me as fulsome a response as you can.
    But you need to know that I view this as wholly, wholly
    unsatisfactory. Instead of moving forward, instead of actually
    seeing some results translate on the ground, we are going
    backward which I didn't think possible. I don't believe it is
    because you don't support the work or the opportunity that
    remains in the Tongass, but what is happening is exactly what
    those who would seek to shut the Tongass down--it is happening
    that the industry is unable to hold on.
        You will be visited by a group of Alaskans this week who
    will not only share with you their concern about, again, this
    downward trend that has gone so low that we could not have even
    imagined that it would be this bad. But they have also been hit
    with a double whammy that you reference with regard to the
    Chinese tariffs. That came out of left field. But I think you
    have a situation here where through policies, through
    litigation, you have managed to eliminate an industry and an
    opportunity for people who live in the nation's largest
    national forest.
        In deference to my colleagues here and their opportunity to
    ask questions, I will conclude my statement, but know that the
    response that you have provided--that you are committed--
    committed on paper is one thing and I have all the materials
    and the statistics, but it is not translating on the ground. It
    is not translating in these communities, and that is not an
    acceptable solution.
        Let me turn to Senator Manchin.
        Senator Manchin. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        Chief Christiansen, in December of last year, myself and
    the Chairman and members of this Committee, many members of
    this Committee, worked diligently to enact a two-year extension
    on the Secure Rural Schools program. Over 290,000 West
    Virginians really depend on that. They sent me letters. They
    were excited. But even though we provided the funding, the
    money has not been dispersed. What should I tell them? When
    will they get this money? And why is it taking so long to get
    it out the door?
        Ms. Christiansen. Senator Manchin, we appreciate your
    leadership on Secure Rural Schools. It really does make a
    difference across the country in many of these rural counties
    with public lands.
        We are working, top priority----
        Senator Manchin. It usually goes out in February. It
    usually goes out, the money goes out in February.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, it will be out before the end of
    March. I can guarantee you that. And I have asked my folks to
    step it up, top priority, to get it out.
        Senator Manchin. What slowed it up? Is there anything that
    we can do to prevent this? Because we have a two-year
    extension, we don't want this to repeat itself next year.
        Ms. Christiansen. You know, in the finance part of the
    Federal Government, I'm not the expert. I will get back to
    you----
        Senator Manchin. We will be happy to work with your--you
    have to have somebody that works at OMB, I am sure, who is
    connected with OMB on this?
        Ms. Christiansen. Sure.
        Senator Manchin. If you can give us the person, your
    contact, on behalf of all of us that rely on this----
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes.
        Senator Manchin. ----we are happy to work with you.
        Ms. Christiansen. Well, we'd be happy to work with you if
    there's any----
        Senator Manchin. So we should tell, basically, our
    constituents back home--for any of you all that have this type
    of funding--that it will be a month late, 30 days late,
    probably.
        Ms. Christiansen. Or less.
        Senator Manchin. Or less, okay.
        Second thing then, speaking about royalty. The budget
    proposal includes a $5 million increase for your communication
    sites program. It says the funding would be used for providing
    broadband access to rural communities, specifically in areas
    where there is little or no capability. There is not a state
    that is probably affected more than my State of West Virginia
    that has rural areas that have no connectivity whatsoever.
        I guess I would ask how, with the little bit of money you
    have there, how are you going to select the areas for which you
    are going to disperse this?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, I really appreciate your question
    and your leadership on rural broadband. As you know, this is a
    high priority for Secretary Perdue and all of USDA. Just to
    clarify what this--on the numbers it looks like a bump up and
    it is because it's a request for the fees that are paid from
    these communication--to establish, to get permits on these
    communication sites for the agency to retain them so we can
    provide better service, better response times for those
    communication sites.
        Senator Manchin. So you are not selecting new sites at all?
    You won't be selecting new sites?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, we don't select sites. That's the
    private sector comes to us and asks to establish a site----
        Senator Manchin. One thing I would make you aware of is
    their maps are usually wrong. We have proven through FCC that
    the FCC maps are wrong, what these providers are telling you
    they are covering and they are not covering. So, please, if you
    will, work with us on that. We will give you the accurate maps.
        Ms. Christiansen. Absolutely. We----
        Senator Manchin. We are urging FCC. There is $20 billion
    going out the door this year. They are probably expediting it
    because of elections, and there are going to be a lot of rural
    communities that are going to be left behind because the maps
    have not been updated. We are going to get screwed again.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, again, it's a top priority for
    USDA, and we'd be glad to work with you on that.
        Senator Manchin. My final question is going to be this.
    According to the budget proposal, the Forest Service is
    preparing to publish a revision of regulations for locatable
    minerals in October. The current regulations apply to hard rock
    mining operations which, you know, have not been changed since
    1872 and very little has been done. With that being said, there
    are no royalties paid to the American public whatsoever for the
    resources they own.
        Are you suggesting and working toward making those changes
    that we should be making here in Congress, supporting the
    changes that need to be made, not only for the royalties, but
    also for how it is mined and for the environment and how it is
    protected, the same as we do in coal and other extractions? For
    some reason hard rock has been left off the table. It has been
    protected.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, there's a rich history on the
    mining laws.
        Senator Manchin. It is rich for the companies that do it.
    It is not rich for the American taxpayer.
        Ms. Christiansen. Sorry, wrong word I used, yes. There's
    significant history on the mining laws and I'd be, we'd be
    happy to work with you on that, Senator. I really appreciate
    your questions.
        Senator Manchin. Well, I would like to know from your
    office and your department, basically, how many active permits
    we have, how many prospective permits that are in a queue, if
    you would.
        Ms. Christiansen. We have hundreds, but we'll, for sure,
    give you the numbers.
        Senator Manchin. Yes--if they identify it, they submit it
    to you, and you give them the permit, and then we get nothing
    in return. I would like to know where we stand on that.
        Ms. Christiansen. Well, it's complicated that, you know,
    the subsurface estate, most of it is BLM and we manage the
    surface. It's split estates and--but it depends on where we're
    at----
        Senator Manchin. Yes.
        Ms. Christiansen. ----in the U.S.
        Senator Manchin. You all are very much involved with that,
    I am sure.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes.
        Senator Manchin. Okay, thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Senator McSally.
        Senator McSally. Thank you, Chairwoman Murkowski.
        Chief Christiansen, good to see you again. Thanks for your
    continued work in this position as well as your service to the
    State of Arizona as our State Forester before you came to the
    Forest Service.
        When we spoke at this hearing last year you committed to
    working with me to update Region 3 forestry guidelines to make
    sure that Phase 2 of Arizona's 4FRI initiative is a success.
    Shortly after the hearing I introduced my bill, the
    Accelerating Forest Restoration Act, which laid out very
    concisely the top asks from the 4FRI stakeholders to make the
    project more efficient and economical. The Ecological
    Restoration Institute at NAU, Northern Arizona University, has
    been a leader in developing effective forestry policy and
    convening stakeholders to ensure policies get implemented. They
    recently released a progress report on modernizing 4FRI
    implementation. It acts as both a report card on how well the
    Forest Service has done in implementing the reforms laid out in
    my bill and as a guide to what still needs to be done. It
    should be required reading for anyone involved in 4FRI, and I
    want to make sure you have a copy and also, Chairwoman, I would
    ask unanimous consent this be added to the record.
        The Chairman. It will be included, thank you.
        [4FRI Progress Report follows.]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator McSally. Right, thank you.
        I will be following up with some questions for the record
    on detailed updates on the status of implementing the
    stakeholder requests, including branding requirements for low-
    value timber, streamlining truck weigh-ins, increasing weight
    limits and extended deck drying times, all of which you are
    familiar with.
        But I want to turn to focus on one of the most critical
    components of making 4FRI work, both in terms of the economics
    and improvement of the forest health and that is biomass
    removal. When it comes to large forest thinning projects like
    4FRI, do you agree that the biomass removal, the disposing of
    large piles of small branches of leftover slash, is one of the
    biggest challenges?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, I do, Senator.
        Senator McSally. I appreciate that the Phase 2 RFP has a
    biomass removal mandate in it, but these types of requirements
    on other projects have scared away industry due to the huge
    costs involved. Could you just share what do you think the
    options are for removing wood biomass besides openly burning
    many metric tons of slash piles in Arizona's forests? Does the
    Forest Service intend to overcome previous challenges to
    biomass removals in a different way in this next phase of 4FRI?
    I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, that's a great opener for, you
    know, the bottom line is the aggressive work we and others are
    doing to find markets for that biomass. It's not economical as
    you well know.
        Senator McSally. Yes.
        Ms. Christiansen. Just to remove it. To burn it all and put
    smoke in the air and we are working on multiple fronts, our
    forest products lab, our wood innovations work on a marketplace
    solution to biomass.
        Now, in the meantime, 4FRI has been really a leader in
    teaching us this difficulty we have in how much of viable
    timber versus how much biomass and how we bring the right
    proposal forward of what the requirements are that meets a
    business model that's reasonable.
        Senator McSally. Yes, is there, I mean, as you know, the
    market-based solution is the challenge, right? Because slash
    and unmarketable trees can be supplies. They can be used to
    generate electricity, but it is just not lucrative as far as
    being cost-efficient compared to other modes. How do you
    address any of those market-based issues when it comes to even
    using it for electricity generation?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, electricity generation has, you
    know, it doesn't, it just doesn't attract, in many cases, the
    dollar return for the milliwatts produced when you have
    significant haul costs. But we're looking far beyond just
    electricity generation, torrefied wood, it's a way to,
    basically a replacement for coal. Nano technology, cellulosic
    nano technology, we can build car frames and, you know, put in
    concrete to lighten the load. There's multiple other options
    that we are getting near to some. We have the technology. How
    we scale it up to be marketplace is the next bridge that we're
    working on.
        Senator McSally. Okay, thanks.
        The Phase 2 RFP has been delayed multiple times. Now that
    it is out for review, the due dates and contract award dates
    have been delayed multiple times also. Now some of the delays
    are largely due to listening to stakeholders and improving the
    RFP which is commendable, but it is important that we adhere to
    an aggressive timeline. Can you just share on the record when
    you expect the contract to be awarded at this point?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, you're exactly right. I was
    personally involved in the decision to extend it based on
    really informative feedback with potential bidders. And the
    proposals are due in May. It's our top priority to evaluate in
    the summer months and we will award in early fall and it's a
    priority stay on that timeline.
        Senator McSally. Okay, thank you. I am over time.
        Ms. Christiansen. You're welcome.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Chief, according to a recent USGS report about the
    economics of forest restoration across the West, for each
    million dollars that we invest in landscape-scale forest
    restoration programs, communities actually see more than $2.2
    million in economic output. Not only do these projects bring
    jobs and livelihoods to rural economies, but they protect our
    drinking water, and they decrease the risk of wildfire not only
    on those lands but in the adjacent communities. Yet in this
    budget request, you have zeroed out the collaborative forest
    landscape restoration program, zero.
        For a little context, this program has treated roughly
    55,000 acres in recent years on the Santa Fe National Forest
    alone. Oftentimes, this is several times more, from two to four
    times more acres, than our timber program touches. Budgets are
    a statement of priorities and values. What I want to know is
    why this Administration doesn't value this critical restoration
    tool more?
        Ms. Christiansen. Senator, I really appreciate how you
    framed that question because you're absolutely right, the
    multiple benefits of forest restoration, what's created in
    communities, this nation, the nation's forests provide over 60
    percent of the drinking water for the U.S. It really is
    profound.
        With that said, as I said in my opening statement, some
    difficult choices and tradeoffs were made in this budget
    submission and we are committed to the collaborative spirit of
    shared stewardship, investing in priority work to get outcomes
    that are important for the particular states and communities in
    these forest communities. And I'd be happy to work with you as
    you all move forward.
        Senator Heinrich. I just don't see a zero as a tradeoff. I
    would point out that businesses in the State of New Mexico are
    now funding more of this kind of landscape scale restoration
    than the entire Federal Government proposal in your budget.
    That says something about priorities and values.
        And in addition, I was dismayed to see the budget request,
    yet again, cuts the Land and Water Conservation Fund to nearly
    nothing, $14 million in total, zero for the Forest Service. It
    actually takes $8 million in existing projects away from the
    BLM. And I can't tell you how popular that program is with the
    entirety, practically, of my constituency. It is the one place
    where you get sportsmen, conservationists and outdoor rec
    enthusiasts all on the same page because it is the most
    effective program for creating access and protecting habitat. I
    don't understand why access and habitat are not priorities in
    this budget.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, I do hear you, Senator. This
    Administration, again, it took some really prioritized focus
    and acquiring new lands was not the priority because we need to
    take care of the lands, the roads and the systems that we have
    and that was the choices and tradeoffs that we made.
        Senator Heinrich. Oftentimes, what that means is that there
    are public lands that the public cannot access and we have
    heard a lot of rhetoric out of this Administration about
    access. LWCF is the tool to move that from rhetoric to reality
    on the ground.
        I am down to a minute here, so I want to get one last
    question in and this relates to what Senator Manchin raised
    around the maintenance backlog. We have a number of campgrounds
    in New Mexico that have been closed for years. One was damaged
    in a 2012 fire and still has not reopened. I don't think that
    is unique to my state. With the current funding structure, how
    long would it take the Forest Service to work through its
    maintenance backlog and get some of those campgrounds reopened?
        Ms. Christiansen. You know, for our roads and trails, and I
    can get back to you specifically on the campground piece, but
    for our roads and trails, we would need $445 million per year
    for the next ten years in addition to the, what's appropriated
    to clear the backlog.
        Senator Heinrich. And what is the number this year in your
    budget?
        Ms. Christiansen. The number this year, I can get--it's
    around, let me get that for you. It's $453 million.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Gardner.
        Senator Gardner. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you,
    Director Christiansen for being here today and your service
    today.
        You may have addressed this already in previous questions,
    I apologize for repeating a question if it was already asked.
    About ten months ago we talked about the Aerial Firefighting
    Use and Effectiveness Study. A year ago, we said that it would
    be coming soon. The year before that we said it would be coming
    soon. The year before that we said it would be coming soon. Is
    it coming soon? The year before that it was coming soon.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, Senator, that is deserved, that
    question is and I guarantee you it is coming soon. I
    understand----
        Senator Gardner. But what is taking so long?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, you know, I'd be glad to come in
    and give you a really detailed briefing, but let me give you
    the high points. We completely had--didn't know what we didn't
    know on the complexity of this kind of study. This was going on
    while we were going to the next generation of air tankers. Of
    course, we have to put the remote sensing devices on these air
    tankers. The questions, the performance measures, the data
    standards, the----
        Senator Gardner. Well, let me just stop you. So when you
    say coming soon, is that next year I get to ask you again or--
    --?
        Ms. Christiansen. No, this spring.
        Senator Gardner. This spring.
        Ms. Christiansen. This spring, guarantee you.
        Senator Gardner. Alright, so before June?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, sir.
        Senator Gardner. Okay, thank you.
        Over the last several years the Forest Service has seen a
    40 percent turnover, as is my understanding, in staffing and 40
    percent of the non-fire workforce has been either converted to
    fire workforce or left the service altogether. Given this
    current staffing situation, I would like to have a conversation
    about what we are doing to fill in the gaps in non-fire
    staffing, like law enforcement and fire prevention, and I want
    to talk a little bit about what is happening in my own state.
        In Summit County, Colorado, a population of 30,000 people,
    they have now, they wrote a letter to me last year. They passed
    a tax increase on themselves in the county, over $1 million a
    year toward a variety of wildfire prevention and mitigation
    strategies, including paying for six--they themselves, the
    county, the people of the county, are taxing themselves to pay
    for six seasonal forest service staff to conduct fire
    prevention work on the Dillon Ranger District of the White
    River National Forest, the busiest forest in our country. One
    full-time, year-round, USFS, Forest Service employee working on
    fire mitigation projects as Forest Service contractors
    conducting fire mitigation timber cuts over time for fire
    prevention patrols on Forest Service land by Summit County
    Sherriff's office and fire mitigation projects on Summit County
    open space adjacent to Forest Service land. Now that we have
    the budget cap adjustment in place, is the Forest Service
    looking to address the situations like the one I just described
    in Summit County and throughout the State of Colorado?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, we really appreciate that kind of
    shared services collaboration. What the community is doing to
    really step in and help fill those gaps, it's really
    significant.
        In regards to what we call the fire funding fix, we
    absolutely appreciate the work of Congress that it stabilized
    our budget so we aren't continuing to put more into fire, but
    it really is the process of budget development and
    appropriations process to increase the funding for those
    services. So we really are looking forward to working with you
    on that.
        Senator Gardner. Will you be filling the gaps in the non-
    fire staffing that I talked about in both law enforcement and
    fire prevention?
        Ms. Christiansen. It will fill the gaps to the extent that
    we get appropriations to do so, Senator.
        Senator Gardner. This will allow us so that we don't have
    to have local counties doing tax increases to do the job of the
    Forest Service?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Gardner. Thank you.
        Obviously, I remain concerned with the number of air
    tankers under contract with guaranteed availability to support
    efforts around the country. I know there is a private study
    that is being released this week which examined the Forest
    Service's wildfire data between, I think, 2015 and 2019 showing
    that when a large air tanker, a very large air tanker, is
    deployed against a fire in the first four to six hours, fires
    lasted an average of less than one day. But for far too many
    fires in this country, that has not been the case, oftentimes
    lasting 20 more days plus or significantly beyond that.
    Billions of dollars are being shouldered by taxpayers,
    businesses and the community as a result.
        We don't have the study. So without that study how are you
    justifying the number of air tankers you have come up with for
    exclusive use contracts and can you provide this Committee with
    the data informing that decision and are you confident that
    during a bad fire you are--there is sufficient air tanker
    capacity available to the Forest Service?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, I am confident, to answer the last
    question first, and yes, we'd be glad to give you more detailed
    information on how we really analyze those decisions.
        I can guarantee you we have them, we will have the most air
    tankers we've had in over ten years, this fire season. And
    call-when-needed is, we can put those on as we see the fire
    danger increasing, so it's not that we call 'em up and, you
    know, we have to wait two days. We call 'em up as we see----
        Senator Gardner. At a higher rate, right? That is a more
    expensive contract?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, but we, at a higher rate, but only
    when we use them versus we have to pay them for a guaranteed
    amount of time. So it's a bit of an art and a science, I will
    say, on how we find the right balance to be responsive, to make
    sure we have the right resources in aerial firefighting in the
    uptick, but we're responsive with our budget and our spending.
        Senator Gardner. Thank you. I have some additional
    questions for the record.
        Thank you, Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Wyden.
        Senator Wyden. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Chief, it is great to have you. Let me start with the
    Wildfire Disaster Funding Act which, I think, most people
    believe is the biggest change in firefighting policy in decades
    and in effect, for those who didn't follow it, it basically
    says we are going to fight the big fires from the disaster fund
    and then we are going to liberate all that money to focus on
    prevention. We wrote it, all of us were involved in it, we
    wrote it in this room.
        My first question is, what can you tell us, because this is
    the first year of implementing this transformative law, how is
    it going in terms of being able to liberate money to get at
    this backlog that Senator Manchin and Senator Heinrich and
    everybody else is asking you about? The backlog in my state
    alone is 2.5 million acres of NEPA-ready, hazardous fuels/
    prescribed fire projects. So my first question is how is it
    going in terms of the first year when we really ought to have
    new money liberated because we finally said we are not going to
    have this bizarre policy where we keep raiding the prevention
    money to fight big fires? How are we doing in terms of getting
    that money out of the disaster fund to go after the backlog?
        Ms. Christiansen. Thank you, Senator. We do continue to
    appreciate very much on--this is significant support and
    leadership on this, it was profound and it is a fire funding--
    oh, thank you--[mic was off] the fire funding fix is profound
    and I do have to clarify something. So it stabilized the Forest
    Service constrained budget. So we weren't--we didn't have to,
    the ten-year average that we have to fund first with fire, that
    has been stabilized, as you know, to the 2015 ten-year average.
    So we don't have that continued erosion. That isn't very
    helpful.
        The second part of the fire funding fix was because we have
    the disaster relief account now for the big fires, the chances
    of having to borrow mid-season are, you know, reduced,
    practically won't happen. But the idea that we have gotten
    additional monies, that's what this conversation is about, that
    is the Appropriations Act. What we are doing in the Forest
    Service is to say, we're going to prioritize, we're going to be
    a good investment and the funds that this budget process, this
    appropriation process, gives us, we are going to put to good
    use and you're going to see a good investment.
        Senator Wyden. I am very much for the new money and that is
    why my colleagues' questions were good.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes.
        Senator Wyden. I also believe that if you are no longer
    raiding prevention, you can use prevention money to hit these
    targets. I would like to ask you to provide us month-to-month
    treatment targets for reducing hazardous fuels, at least in my
    state, but I think my colleagues are going to ask as well. Can
    you do that, give us month-to-month treatment targets for
    reducing hazardous fuels?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, Senator, I might ask if we could do
    it quarterly because there's a little bit at play. We set
    quarterly targets is how we do it, but if you need month, we'll
    do it by month.
        Senator Wyden. Great. I think, because this is becoming the
    fire season, if we could say, the first couple of months we
    need monthly targets, and after that we will do quarterly. Is
    that agreeable to you?
        Ms. Christiansen. Okay, yes.
        Senator Wyden. Great.
        Ms. Christiansen. And I would like to just point out that
    this budget does propose a $65 million increase in hazardous
    fuels.
        Senator Wyden. I saw that. Okay.
        Second, Senator Manchin and I have been very interested in
    finding some fresh approaches to deal with prescribed fire and,
    as we always do, we talk with the Chair because we always try
    to work on these issues together. But as you know, there is a
    lot of interest in prescribed fire, streamlining the regulatory
    hurdles, developing a prescribed fire workforce. How are we
    doing on that?
        Ms. Christiansen. We are making, well, we are making far
    more progress on getting more prescribed fire done on the
    ground, particularly in the West where we need to break through
    those cultural and social barriers. In the Pacific Northwest,
    in particular, we increased our prescribed fire activity. As
    you know, in many, many of our landscapes across this country,
    fire is the number one treatment tool and we've got to keep
    increasing.
        Senator Wyden. Let me do this because I am almost out of
    time. If you could give me a written answer on the prescribed
    fire plan. Senator Manchin and I want to work together----
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        Senator Wyden. ----with all of our colleagues on both
    sides.
        Last question. You might want to give this to me in writing
    because I am over my time. I am very interested, as you and I
    have talked about, in looking at new technologies in terms of
    firefighting, particularly one that I hear a lot about is the
    ability to fly helicopters at night or in low visibility. If
    you can give us a short answer, I can probably get another 15
    seconds out of my friend the Chair, but you will also give me a
    response in writing on these technologies.
        Ms. Christiansen. I will.
        The short answer is we have been, we've had night flying
    operations in Southern California for the last handful of
    years. We learned a lot. It is an investment, but we have some
    known, very known capabilities in the right place to use night
    flying operations.
        Senator Wyden. Great.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Senator Daines.
        Senator Daines. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Chief, good to have you here and thanks for testifying on
    the Forest Service budget. It was also really good to be
    discussing these issues at that Forestry Forum we had two weeks
    ago and our meeting yesterday with you and your team and thanks
    for being here again today. I was encouraged to find the Forest
    Service budget prioritize wildfire suppression, shared
    stewardship principles, increasing efficiencies and set a very
    quantifiable target of timber output target of four billion
    board feet.
        However, if that is the good news, here is one of my major
    concerns. I believe it is unacceptable that the Administration
    continues to eliminate funding for the Land and Water
    Conservation Fund, known as LWCF. LWCF is a critical tool in
    Montana to protect and enhance our public and recreational
    access to our public lands. In fact, I, along with 52 other
    Senators, have co-sponsored bipartisan legislation to make the
    LWCF funding permanent and will continue pushing for full
    mandatory funding for LWCF in working across the aisle with my
    colleagues on getting our important bill across the finish
    line. Unfortunately, there are not too many things that unite
    Congress anymore. As we saw earlier last year, public lands do,
    and I think this is one of the pieces of legislation that will.
        Sixty-two percent of Montanans stated that wildfires
    threatening homes and property are a serious problem. We see
    the effect of that certainly breathing the smoke in the
    summertime. This should come as no surprise as there are 1.6
    million acres in the wildland urban interface that are at high
    risk of wildfire. I do appreciate the budget prioritizes public
    safety by requesting robust funding for wildfire suppression
    and important vegetation management; however, it is litigation,
    litigation from fringe groups, that continues to delay time-
    sensitive wildfire risk reduction projects.
        There is one lawsuit currently jeopardizing over 130
    projects in Montana alone. This particular case is one of many
    copycat lawsuits that follow the Ninth Circuit's Cottonwood
    decision. This court decision established a new procedural
    requirement that amounts to a mere paperwork exercise with no
    benefit. Even the Obama Administration agreed that this case,
    and I quote, ``had the potential to cripple forest
    management.'' That is right out of the Obama Administration. We
    were working this when he was President, and they were spot on.
        The impact of this case has tied up hundreds of projects
    damaging the health of our forests and threatening jobs. In
    fact, just last month, in Townsend, Montana, Broadwater County,
    70 Montanans were laid off when RY Timber was forced to close a
    mill citing chronic timber supply challenges exacerbated by
    litigation. The irony is, as you stand at that mill, you are
    looking at thousands, tens of thousands, hundred thousands of
    acres of forested land and our public lands, our national
    forests, and we can't go in to do some commonsense thinning
    that reduces the risk of wildfire and keeps these folks
    employed. As with any mill closure this will surely have a
    ripple effect in the community. These are not prosperous
    communities. These are important, good paying jobs and the
    families are devastated.
        My question, Chief, is can you explain the impacts of
    Cottonwood and do you believe there is a conservation benefit
    to this new requirement?
        Ms. Christiansen. The consequences are severe, I will say
    that up front. It's--we are committed to do our environmental
    and our Endangered Species Act due diligence consultation. But
    this Cottonwood decision is duplicative in that it requires us,
    anytime there's any new information on a forest land management
    plan, that's the general plan that we lay out for every 15 to
    20 years, and it requires us to consult on any new information.
    When we are going to consult on any project we're going to
    directly do on the ground. So, it's duplicative. It takes
    numerous resources away from getting work done on the ground,
    but worse, it just prevents the work getting done, the
    resiliency in the forest to protect communities and the way of
    life of public lands in Montana.
        Senator Daines. How does litigation impact wildfire
    reduction project and overall, the visitor's experience to our
    national forests?
        Ms. Christiansen. Well, it just prevents us from getting
    the critical treatments on the ground because we're tied up in
    litigation. We're enjoined. We can't move forward and
    recreationists have to live with smoke. Communities have to
    live with smoke. The economic prosperity of communities are
    compromised, as you just talked about, with RY in Townsend.
    It's a significant rippling impact and it's not just in Montana
    anymore, it's in the bigger footprint of the Ninth Circuit.
        Senator Daines. Yes, and I am out of time. My last point,
    and I will wrap up here, is that my wife and I are avid
    backpackers, like a lot of Montanans are. We are always, during
    the August recess here, leaving DC and getting to spend time in
    the high country in Montana. We literally have to watch the
    fire reports to make sure we can get into some of the areas in
    Southwest Montana to make sure they are open--back to the
    impact of access to public lands.
        Thanks for your testimony.
        Ms. Christiansen. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Daines.
        Yes, it is, Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Yay, thank you.
        Chief, as you know, biosecurity is of great importance to
    Hawaii and the Pacific region and, of course, by protecting our
    forests and environment from invasive species, we are also
    reducing the likelihood that these pests make their way to the
    mainland. Unfortunately, our current biocontrol facilities in
    Hawaii that are utilized by both the state and Forest Service
    are outdated and we are in need of a new state-of-the-art,
    biosecurity research facility jointly owned and managed by the
    state and federal partners, including the Forest Service, that
    would allow our researchers to test different biocontrol
    methods for combating some of the world's worst pests.
        The state has allocated some $180,000 for planning and
    scoping the possibility of a facility but federal support is
    currently needed, and I would like your commitment to work with
    me and my staff in exploring the possibility of a new
    biocontrol research facility in Hawaii because we are the
    invasive species capital of the country.
        Ms. Christiansen. Gateway, how's that?
        Senator Hirono. Gateway, yes, that's fine.
        Ms. Christiansen. We appreciate your leadership on this and
    Hawaii's stance on this, and I'd be happy to work with you to
    see what we can do.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        I also want to thank you for the interagency cooperation
    that has gone into helping Hawaii combat a pathogen that has
    been devastating the native ohia trees called Rapid Ohia Death.
    You mentioned that our forests account for over a vast majority
    of the nation's drinking water and that is certainly the case
    with our ohia forests because they are part of watersheds.
    Money from the state and private forestry account has been
    critical to helping our folks on the ground in Hawaii address
    Rapid Ohia Death (ROD). I am disappointed to see that the
    President's budget makes severe cuts to our program that is so
    important to Hawaii, and I will work with my colleagues in
    Congress to see that the program is funded more adequately.
        Along those lines, I appreciate your support for a forest
    pathologist at the Institute of Pacific Islands Forestry, but
    Hawaii is in desperate need of that position becoming permanent
    so they can support our state biosecurity plan and help address
    existing and emerging pests and pathogens such as Rapid Ohia
    Death and support for this position would be leveraged with
    funds from the University of Hawaii and the State of Hawaii. I
    would like your commitment to work with me and my staff to see
    about establishing a permanent, jointly-funded forest
    pathologist in Hawaii.
        Ms. Christiansen. We'd be happy to work with you on that.
    We have some great scientists out there on biocontrols and
    other things and it's--there's a great multiagency effort and
    we are committed to be, remain a part of that.
        Senator Hirono. Good.
        The President's budget proposes closing the Pacific
    Southwest Research Station which oversees research and
    development in California, Hawaii and the U.S.-affiliated
    Pacific Islands and merging it with the Pacific Northwest
    Research Station. And while the Forest Service knows that this
    closure will not result in the cessation of research in that
    region, it is not clear what this proposal specifically means
    for the future of the Institute of Pacific Islands Forestry, or
    IPIF, in Hawaii. Will you have experts on your staff brief my
    staff on any impacts of this proposed closure on the Pacific
    Islands as well as the future that the Forest Service envisions
    for IPIF?
        Ms. Christiansen. Absolutely. I have been out to IPIF and I
    have personally seen how integrated they are, and we'd be happy
    to work with your staff.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        You noted that you are making progress on the issue of
    preventing sexual harassment and retaliation in the Forest
    Service and there were a number of recommendations made in the
    IG report because this is an ongoing problem for the Forest
    Service, and you did say that while you are improving that it
    takes time to improve the culture. I was curious to know,
    seeing the list of the report, where on January 5th, 2020, the
    agency, your agency, closed about 88 percent of the 2,215 cases
    of harassment reported since August 2017. I realize that you
    are focusing on your hiring methods, the kind of questions that
    you ask of your potential hires, you are really focusing on the
    need to report these instances and the training and, of course,
    the investigation of this kind of misconduct. But I am curious
    to know, who is doing the harassing and who are the victims of
    the harassment? I take it they are all employees. So is it your
    male employees who are harassing the female employees? Is that
    the usual circumstance?
        Ms. Christiansen. We can get you more specific
    demographics. There's, you know, harassment is, it knows no
    boundaries. I would say the preponderance is between gender,
    but it is not only--we have specific demographics on what kind
    of lines of work and we're studying that and looking at the
    trend lines and it's a bigger conversation than now but I'd be
    glad to get back to you with more information.
        Senator Hirono. Yes, so I am interested in how, who is
    actually, you know, doing the harassing, what you are doing in
    terms of diversifying your employee base and all of those kinds
    of aspects.
        Ms. Christiansen. I'd really love to come visit with you.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you.
        Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Senator Cantwell.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        Chief Christiansen, great to see you. Thank you so much.
        Obviously, no one can argue that nationally and
    internationally the fire seasons are with us everywhere from
    Australia to Alaska, so a lot is going on. One of the things I
    am pleased to see is there is $15 million in the President's
    budget to implement the Technology Advancement Act that Senator
    Gardner and I pushed through. That is everything from GPS
    locators to real-time fire information. We did a great
    demonstration of this in Spokane that I loved. We were at a
    fire station, literally, in the garage of the fire station, and
    they lit a can outside. But you couldn't see the fire, it was
    hidden. But the heat detection sensor that we had, an aerial
    sensor, could detect it and showed it on our monitor. There was
    a ``hot spot'' and we got to get right on it.
        We are just such a firm believer in this technology. What
    can we do now to speed up the deployment of this technology?
    CBO had estimated that you could do the whole Wildfire
    Management Technology Act for just $8 million. So we feel like
    a lot can go forward this fire season. What can we get done
    with that money?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, the money is really appreciated and
    it, you know, to whatever levels Congress does choose to fund,
    we stand ready to be able to implement. Now, you know, funding
    it is the highest priority on being able to have the resources,
    but we have to make sure we invest in the right way. So we are
    moving out now, regardless of whether these funds come forward
    or not, on doing some pilot tests around these resource
    trackers.
        The technology is changing, you know, weekly and so we're
    working interagency in three, we have three different scopes of
    questions in these three major pilots across the country with a
    incident--a command team to 100 percent of the fire personnel
    in another region, across agencies and there are different test
    types so that we can stand ready should we get the funding to
    deploy. We know the best investment and the best operating
    procedures, and we're going to use existing funds to move that
    forward.
        Senator Cantwell. Well, I appreciate that and I would think
    that then when you look at the maps for what we get in a few
    months here and further into the early summer, you will look at
    that and make technology use projections based on where you
    think hot spots are or the biggest threats or----
        Ms. Christiansen. Well, on the resource trackers that's
    more where we are considering what kind of fire activity we
    think we'll have in those areas, but it's capability, it's the
    readiness of the cross, you know, the multiple agencies are
    affected. So we're deploying that now because it's a little bit
    more of a test that we need to get stood up now.
        Senator Cantwell. What about the GPS trackers for
    firefighters? That seems very easy to deploy and----
        Ms. Christiansen. Well, that's what I'm talking about, the
    tracker, the resource tracker, the GPS tracker.
        Senator Cantwell. Okay, so that is just what--just that
    resource. Okay.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, yes. And then we're, you know, we've
    been working on----
        Senator Cantwell. I mean, that is very low cost, right?
        Ms. Christiansen. I wouldn't call it low cost with the
    amount of infrastructure that you have to put in place and the
    training and the capacity and maybe in the, you know, if we're
    talking interagency, we're talking 15,000 fire personnel and we
    put it on our, what I call, our militia that do do fire,
    there's another 10,000. So it's not low cost.
        Senator Cantwell. Right, but obviously we are looking for
    people when they are deployed not when they are--we have enough
    other problems, right?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes.
        Senator Cantwell. So we are just looking for the deployed
    individuals----
        Ms. Christiansen. Absolutely.
        Senator Cantwell. ----and tracking them.
        Ms. Christiansen. But in a high fire season, interagency,
    we can have 26,000, 27,000 folks deployed.
        Senator Cantwell. So, okay. And all at the same time?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah and peak parts of seasons, oh, yes.
    I mean, that's getting up there and breaking the record. We're
    usually around, depending on what kind of fire activity, we're
    usually, you know, anywhere from 5,000 to 20,000 in the height
    of a fire season but it's pressed close to 30,000.
        Senator Cantwell. Well, I would hope, you know, obviously
    we have lost Northwest people in some significant fires over
    the last two decades.
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        Senator Cantwell. And we definitely would also like to see
    the weather forecaster, smoke forecasters, on the ground in
    those situations because we think that is critical as well.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, Senator, if I could just quickly
    interrupt on the wildfire modernization piece. Our researchers
    are ready to deploy an app that will, you know, every
    firefighter has a smartphone that would give real-time escape
    routes and safety zones on their app as they move about. So
    there's all kinds of other capacities with this that we're
    growing.
        Senator Cantwell. Well, we will look forward to, obviously,
    being large and vocal advocates for this budget----
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        Senator Cantwell. ----and doing everything we can to help
    you get these things deployed. We think the challenge just
    grows every fire season, so we definitely want you to have
    every tool and are glad that you are going to embrace the
    modernization with or without this $15 million, and clearly we
    want to get you those resources.
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Madam Chair.
        The Chairman. Thank you, and Senator Cantwell, thank you
    for what you have been doing on that technology front. We
    appreciate it.
        Senator Cortez Masto.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Chief, welcome. It is good to see you and your team here
    and your staff, and thank you for all the good work that you
    do.
        I want to echo the comments that were made by the
    Chairwoman along with my colleagues and Senator Cantwell. From
    Nevada, wildfires--whether they are in the forest or
    rangeland--are a big issue for us as well. What I would like to
    talk to you about is local cooperative fire agreements.
        Ms. Christiansen. Oh, yeah.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Yes. I have had conversations at a
    wildfire summit in my state, talking with our state and local
    folks and, as you know, the agreements between the Forest
    Service and our state and local governments are to aid and
    mutual assistance and resource transfer for local and regional
    wildfires. But with the intensity of the fires we see, now
    longer fire seasons are in sight, we literally, in Nevada, a
    fire is occurring every month now. We are seeing,
    unfortunately, that happening.
        Can you talk and discuss the limitations you are
    experiencing with these cooperative fire protection agreements
    and what long-term solutions should we be considering to
    improve the relationships? And let me give you an example. I
    think the Forest Service staff wrote an April 2019 issue
    summary noting the limits current law provides these agreements
    and the potential need to reassess how these are implemented.
    Maybe I am catching you off guard and if you can't respond to
    that now, I would love a follow-up on if there is something we
    need to do to address these local agreements.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes. I can address it generally. I want
    to make sure what part of limitations you're referring to. So
    that we'll, we'd be happy to follow up on that, the particular,
    because there could be a couple ways this, these limitations
    are.
        Let me just say that even the U.S., who is coveted around
    this globe, that we have the world's best wildfire response, we
    cannot do it unless we have capacity at the local, the state
    and the federal level. So with my background, 30 years in state
    government that tended to those local arrangements, I'm
    steadfast and that is how we have built this system. So all
    parts need to function. The limitations, I believe, are in how
    we deploy the local resources way outside of their
    jurisdiction.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Correct. That is correct.
        Ms. Christiansen. Okay, that's the part of the limitation.
    And you know, how we help each other within their jurisdictions
    or close to their jurisdictions, is solid. But that there's
    interpretations about the Federal Government being the banker
    to, you know, send people all over is what we're getting audits
    about. And so, we'd be glad to, you know, do some more briefing
    about that, understanding and would love to have your help on
    how we look at how we keep a continuous firefighting effort
    across this nation.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. What we will do is look
    forward to a follow-up with maybe you or your staff to talk a
    little bit more about it.
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, absolutely.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate that.
        In Nevada, our Air National Guard is one of the, I guess,
    for lack of a better word----
        Ms. Christiansen. MAFFS.
        Senator Cortez Masto. MAFFS, our Modular Airborne Fire
    Fighting Systems, that is happening and we are very proud of
    it. They come and talk regularly. Thank you for the
    partnership. I have been there. I have toured it. I have seen
    not only what they bring to the wildfire suppression, not just
    in Nevada, but in the region, right?
        I guess what I am hearing, and I have concerns about this,
    so I would love for you to address this. One, can you comment
    on the impact that the National Guard's current C-130H aircraft
    has had on firefighting efforts? Then I am hearing there is a
    potential that, as you know, our Air National Guard is looking
    to migrate to the C-130J and they are very excited about it,
    but now we are hearing funding for that aircraft may be
    diverted to the border wall and not go toward the newer
    aircraft with the newer technology that will help with this
    aerial firefighting throughout the region. Could you address
    that and what you are hearing and the concerns that we are
    hearing from our Air National Guard in Northern Nevada?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, thank you, Senator.
        I can say that the MAFFS capability, the mobile air frames,
    are the absolute important, we call it the surge capacity, when
    the private sector, we've maxed them out and we need additional
    capacity. MAFFS have time and time again been the critical
    resources that we call on. We love the partnership.
        I cannot speak to the DoD funding, but I can say the Hs,
    the 130Hs are capable. The 130Js are a more modern platform
    that give us more options and effectiveness in fire response.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate that. I look
    forward to following up with your staff as well.
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Chief, I mentioned in my opening statement that while I
    appreciate the good efforts that the Forest Service is doing as
    you are working through this Roadless Rule and its application
    in Alaska, I mentioned that the effects of lifting it, I
    believe, have been misconstrued. I would ask you to speak,
    specifically, to what you believe the effect of lifting the
    Roadless Rule will actually be projected to have on the Tongass
    timber program.
        And I will put it into context. We recognize that the DEIS
    projects that a full exemption would add approximately 185,000
    acres to the timber base for future timber production. There
    are some who, again, are opposed to any level of timber harvest
    in the Tongass and they are saying this is what will be open
    and available, and yet Forest Service projections are that just
    18,000 of those acres would be harvested over the next 100
    years.
        I am trying to put it into context. As I have been with
    folks in the Southeast this past week, I was reminding them
    that with the designations that are already in place, you have
    a full 80 percent of the Tongass that will never, ever, ever,
    ever be available for harvest. Can you speak to what the effect
    actually will be on the Tongass timber program?
        Ms. Christiansen. I can speak to that, yes, of course. And
    let's just put into context that the Tongass is far more than
    just timber. It's a multiple use forest. It provides many, many
    services.
        The Chairman. Tourism, access for renewable----
        Ms. Christiansen. Energies.
        The Chairman. ----energy projects.
        Ms. Christiansen. Systems.
        So that's the context and timber is a piece of it and
    there's--so that's one slice of the analysis.
        The Chairman. Right.
        Ms. Christiansen. And what the Roadless Draft Environmental
    Impact Statement looks at is where it is available. It doesn't
    project what would happen in a harvest. We are still bound by
    the Forest Plan, and then the Forest Plan guides the amount of
    harvest and then, of course, each particular activity needs to
    be analyzed and the amount of harvest----
        The Chairman. So it is access, it is access.
        Ms. Christiansen. It's access, Senator.
        The Chairman. It is reasonable access to all of the
    stakeholders.
        Ms. Christiansen. Of course, yes.
        The Chairman. Yes.
        Ms. Christiansen. So the Roadless Rule itself does not
    dictate timber harvest. It dictates availability only, and
    there's the Forest Land Management Plan and then specific
    project proposals that would come after that.
        The Chairman. I think this is part of the confusion. For
    timber this is really about the flexibility to make economic
    sales rather than increase harvests. Is that correct?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah.
        The Chairman. You want to have the flexibility so that you
    can have the sales. I mean, we spoke earlier, and you
    recognized that the Prince of Wales project and the fact that a
    great deal of time and commitment had been made for that to
    accommodate that collaborative process, and then it gets
    stalled out because of litigation. So effectively, we put a lot
    of eggs in that basket and now we are seeing the situation that
    we have on the ground which, again, is the lowest timber
    harvested in, since we have been harvesting timber at just 5.6
    million board feet. I think it is important to put in the
    context of the whole, what we are really talking about here
    with the proposal to lift the Roadless Rule.
        I also mentioned, and you raised as well, the impact of the
    China timber tariffs. Retaliatory tariff rates on spruce were
    as high as 25 percent last year. We are the only national
    forest, the Tongass is the only national forest allowed to
    export whole logs and where we are sitting and where our market
    is, Asia, is pretty critical to us.
        The irony here is that those who were told by Forest
    Service and others that you need to move away from old growth,
    you need to move to that second harvest, that young growth,
    that market, that they went out to build just happened to be a
    Chinese market. So they did everything that they were
    encouraged to do. Go find new markets. Move to a different--
    move away from old growth and yet, now they are in a situation
    where they are being left without a market at all. Is the
    Forest Service looking into possibly reexamining the stumpage
    rates to offset some of the effects of these Chinese tariffs?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yes, I'm very well aware of this major
    dilemma, Senator, and we are looking at everything within our
    law, our authorities of how we can do adjustments to
    accommodate these stumps, these stumpage rates. We're
    continuously looking at this.
        The Chairman. Yes, this is a real challenge for us and,
    again, it is not something that we, perhaps, could have
    anticipated. But again, it is just the height of irony that
    those who felt they were being pushed out of one area did as
    was proposed and now they are sitting here, perhaps in a more
    desperate situation than anybody else.
        Last question for you and, again, I think this just
    reflects on so many of the issues that we have as we are
    dealing with the Forest Service. They say, okay, move away from
    old growth. We move away from old growth to young growth, the
    market gets shut down in China. They say well, focus on
    tourism, focus on that aspect of our forest which we are all
    about. We have extraordinary opportunities, but the complaints
    that we are hearing from recreation groups who have to wait
    months, sometimes years, to obtain a permit from the Forest
    Service in order to really enjoy them is again, yet, part of
    the continuing frustration.
        When I was up in the state last week a constituent informed
    my staff that he has been waiting three years, three years for
    a permit to guide tourists on a hike to a scenic spot on
    Admiralty Island there in the Tongass. The hike is a mere 20
    steps from a state-owned beach. So the frustration here is you
    say you can't harvest--we don't harvest. Look to tourism
    opportunities--but we are waiting years for permits. Now I know
    that in the past we have been able to blame some of the lack of
    staffing to move these permits through because of what was
    going on with fire borrowing, but we are beyond that now.
        But I am still told that we have not recovered in the state
    in terms of the budget cuts that had moved forward some years
    back. There was agreement that Alaska took a heavier hit than
    most other areas, and we included language in the
    appropriations bill to try to rectify and adjust some of that.
    But we still continue to have challenges in being able to meet
    the staffing needs.
        I met with Earl Stewart when I was up there, and we are
    looking to perhaps utilizing the ANILCA local hire a little bit
    better. But it is a challenge for us and as Forest Service has
    struggled to meet this challenge, Alaska has been on the short
    end of the stick when it comes to processes that work for not
    only the local people but those who are coming up from outside
    who want to avail themselves to tourist and recreational
    opportunities within the Tongass.
        Ms. Christiansen. Senator, I do hear your concern and I
    know it's not enough, but we are making progress. We've reduced
    the backlog of expired permits and those that are waiting for a
    new permit. We've set a priority. We are doing the hiring, the
    ANILCA local hire, and thanks to the fix that you did a few
    years back, that really makes it viable and resourceful for us.
    We're doing Centers of Excellence around growing the capacity
    and special use permits. We're streamlining our processes.
    There's several things we're doing.
        I'll leave it there because Americans want to use these
    forests and we need to give them access and that's a, it's an,
    I mean, through some kind of, these are usually outfitter and
    guides. We have over 8,000 outfitters and guides across the
    system. It's really important that we be responsive to give
    them the access. So we are prioritizing the permits. We've made
    progress. We're doing additional hires. We're convening,
    there's some places where there's some conflict between big
    game hunting and the cruise industry. We've convened some local
    capacity to work out who's where and what. We're investing in--
    you and I were at Anan Wildlife Observatory and Mendenhall in
    some of the critical infrastructure. We do try to stick with
    our commitment that enjoying the Tongass and the Chugach
    National Forests is part of our duty of delivering our mission,
    and we will stay on it. I'm sorry to hear there's a three-year
    backlog, and I'd love to personally look at what that situation
    is.
        The Chairman. Well, maybe what I can suggest is that you
    and I have an opportunity for a more detailed review----
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        The Chairman. ----of some of these issues that have
    presented themselves as sticking points.
        Ms. Christiansen. I'd be happy to.
        The Chairman. With that, Senator Cortez Masto, did you have
    any follow-up?
        Senator Cortez Masto. I do, to just address this issue
    because I do agree, as we have Humboldt-Toiyabe which is the
    largest national forest in the Lower 48, very proud of it. But
    I noticed there is an 18 percent decrease in the forest and
    rangeland research account, and it proposes to eliminate
    research efforts related to wildlife, fish and recreation. How
    does that impact, that decrease, how does it impact what the
    Chairwoman was just talking about, the outdoor recreation that
    we want to promote, continue to support in our forest land?
        Ms. Christiansen. Yeah, thank you for that question. It
    would, the reduction in the research, recreation research,
    would impact our ability to do the capacity studies, the
    interface, the social trends and the biophysical capacity that
    the landscape have for the right kind of use on the right kind
    of land. We would not have those resources available to us to
    manage forward.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, thank you.
        Thank you.
        Ms. Christiansen. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Chief, thank you for being here this morning.
    I know that folks will probably have follow-on questions.
        Ms. Christiansen. You bet.
        The Chairman. We would appreciate your responses, and I
    will look forward to my meeting with you as well.
        Ms. Christiansen. Look forward to it.
        The Chairman. With that, the Committee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:32 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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