[Senate Hearing 116-363]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                         S. Hrg. 116-363

              S. 2555, A BILL TO DESIGNATE THE NEW RIVER 
                GORGE NATIONAL RIVER IN THE STATE OF  
                WEST VIRGINIA AS THE ``NEW RIVER GORGE 
                NATIONAL PARK AND PRESERVE,'' AND FOR 
                OTHER PURPOSES

=======================================================================

                             FIELD HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 22, 2020

                               __________

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
40-909                     WASHINGTON : 2021                     
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------        
        
        
               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                    LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
MIKE LEE, Utah                       MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
STEVE DAINES, Montana                BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
MARTHA McSALLY, Arizona              ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                      Brian Hughes, Staff Director
                     Kellie Donnelly, Chief Counsel
Lucy Murfitt, Deputy Chief Counsel and Deputy Staff Director of Natural 
                               Resources
            Annie Hoefler, Senior Professional Staff Member
                 Renae Black, Democratic Staff Director
                Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                David Brooks, Democratic General Counsel
               Peter Stahley, Democratic Bevinetto Fellow
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Manchin III, Hon. Joe, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from 
  West Virginia..................................................     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, a U.S. Senator from West Virginia....     3

                               WITNESSES

Watts, Lizzie, Superintendent, New River Gorge National River, 
  National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior.........    41
Ruby, Chelsea A., Tourism Commissioner, West Virginia Tourism 
  Office, West Virginia Department of Commerce...................    46
Harman, Jerod, President, West Virginia Wildlife Federation......    50
Johnson, Richard ``Rick'' A., Owner, River Expeditions...........    52

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Ackerman, Russell:
    Letter for the Record........................................   101
Alexander, Donna:
    Letter for the Record........................................   102
Armstrong, Kelly L.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   103
Arnold, Dave:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    78
Ashworth, Amy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   104
Aspy, Douglas:
    Letter for the Record........................................   105
Aspy, Ryan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   106
Aspy, Travis:
    Letter for the Record........................................   107
Aucremanne, Joe:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    81
Babiak, Kelly:
    Letter for the Record........................................   108
Bailey, Darrell:
    Letter for the Record........................................   109
Ball, Trent:
    Letter for the Record........................................   110
Bartell, Jack:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   111
Baughman, Rebecca:
    Letter for the Record........................................   112
Beeching, Spencer C.:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   113
Berry, Larry A.:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    70
Bice, Jeff:
    Letter for the Record........................................   114
Black, James:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   115
Blankenship, Roy:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    82
Bockrath, Logan:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    76
Bor, Ellen:
    Letter for the Record........................................   116
Bowe, Erica:
    Letter for the Record........................................   117
Bower, Jr., Robert:
    Letter for the Record........................................   118
Boyle, Sara:
    Letter for the Record........................................   119
Breeden, Kelly:
    Letter for the Record........................................   120
Breuer, Paul:
    Letter for the Record........................................   121
Brouse, Joe:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    68
Brown, Stephen M.:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   122
Burgin, Linda:
    Letter for the Record........................................   123
Burnette, Dr. Greg:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    84
Butler, Charles ``Buddy'':
    Letter for the Record........................................   124
Campbell, Jim:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    65
Campbell, Thomas:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    69
Canterbury, Steven:
    Letter for the Record........................................   125
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
Carpenter, Robert:
    Letter for the Record........................................   126
Case, Larry:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    77
Casper, John:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   127
Casto, Agnes:
    Letter for the Record........................................   128
Cavallo, Loria:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   131
Chennault, Michael:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    80
Cheuvront, Andrea:
    Letter for the Record........................................   132
City of Beckley (WV):
    Letter for the Record........................................     5
City of Hinton (WV):
    Resolution for the Record....................................     6
City of Summersville (WV):
    Resolution for the Record....................................     8
Coleman, Glenn:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    66
Colgrove, Patricia K.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   133
Cowdrick, William:
    Letter for the Record........................................   134
Crockett, John N.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   135
Cruikshank, Sharon:
    Letter for the Record........................................    10
    Statement for the Record.....................................    90
Dorshimer, Bryan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   136
Dresch, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   137
Dwyer, Jeannine:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   138
Earehart, Charles Thomas:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    83
Ellis, Damon L.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   139
Fairman, Lindsay:
    Letter for the Record........................................   140
Fallin, Frank and Pamela:
    Letter for the Record........................................   141
Fayette County (WV) Chamber of Commerce:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    11
Fayette County (WV) Commission:
    Letter for the Record........................................    13
    Resolution for the Record....................................    14
Feeley, Karen:
    Letter for the Record........................................   142
Fleischman, Alice:
    Letter for the Record........................................   143
Floyd, Cheryl C.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   144
Floyd, Jennifer:
    Letter for the Record........................................   145
Force, Patricia:
    Letter for the Record........................................   146
Forren, Judith and Ronald:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   147
Foster, Allen:
    Letter for the Record........................................   148
Fraleigh, Leah:
    Letter for the Record........................................   149
Gabel, Bob:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   150
Gabel, Jeff:
    Letter for the Record........................................   151
Garton, Jeannine:
    Letter for the Record........................................   152
Garvin, Mary:
    Letter for the Record........................................   153
Gerencer, Tom:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    75
    Letter for the Record........................................   154
Gilbert, Zac:
    Letter for the Record........................................   156
Giles County (VA) Board of Supervisors:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    15
Giles, Terri:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    89
Gill, Chris:
    Comment for the Record.......................................    79
Gilliam, Luke:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    71
Gilpin, MSgt Earl Roy:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   157
Goings, Leslie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   158
Gonano, Max:
    Letter for the Record........................................   159
Goodwillie, Kay:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   160
Graham, Aaron:
    Letter for the Record........................................   161
Graham, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   162
Graham, Pamela:
    Letter for the Record........................................   163
Grant-Hart, Kristy:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    89
Grayson, Jenna:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    74
Hager, Heather:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   164
Hamel, Courtney:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   165
Harman, Jerod:
    Opening Statement............................................    50
    Written Testimony............................................    51
Hayes, Christopher Ian:
    Letter for the Record........................................   166
Heinl, Andy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   167
Herderick, Dr. Edward D.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   168
Heywood, Thomas A.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   169
Hill, Jay:
    Letter for the Record........................................   170
Holliday, Matt:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   171
Holmes, Rebecca:
    Letter for the Record........................................   172
Hopkins, Stephanie:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   173
Howells, Brenda:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    67
Hubbert, Hollie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   174
Jarrell, Brad:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    86
Johnson, Heather:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    70
Johnson, Richard ``Rick'' A.:
    Letter for the Record........................................    18
    Opening Statement............................................    52
    Written Testimony............................................    54
Kanhofer, Brian:
    Letter for the Record........................................   175
Kauff, John:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    85
Keller, Jennifer:
    Letter for the Record........................................   176
Kelly, Gary and Chasity:
    Letter for the Record........................................   177
Kern, Mary Agnes:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   178
King, Mathias Noble:
    Letter for the Record........................................   179
Kissko, Brenda:
    Letter for the Record........................................   180
Kistler, Maura:
    Letter for the Record........................................    19
Knabenshue, Traci:
    Letter for the Record........................................   181
Kneller, Grace:
    Letter for the Record........................................   182
Knoble, Steven:
    Letter for the Record........................................   183
Kobayashi, Sachi Christine:
    Letter for the Record........................................   184
Kossack, Darlene:
    Letter for the Record........................................   185
Kreger, Kenneth:
    Letter for the Record........................................   186
Kreuscher, Juliana:
    Letter for the Record........................................   187
Kuhlman, Alan and Carol:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   188
Lamey, Deborah K.:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    92
    Letter for the Record........................................   189
Larsen, Larry D.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   190
Lawless, Clovis:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   191
Leier, Rachel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   192
Lehrter, Bill:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    73
Lewis, Chad:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   193
Lively, Brandie:
    Letters for the Record.......................................   194
Love, Peyton:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    88
Manchin III, Hon. Joe:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
    Projected Map entitled Alternative 2 (Proposal) produced by 
      the NERI GIS Office dated 2/21/2020........................    58
Manges, Carlie:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   195
Mani, Jonathan ``Jon'' R.:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   196
Martin, II, Donald W.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   197
Martin, Steven:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    87
Masino, Aubrey:
    Letter for the Record........................................   198
Mazar, Tim:
    Letter for the Record........................................   199
McCann, Sarah:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   200
McCarthy, Justin D.:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   201
McComas, Charles Edward:
    Letter for the Record........................................   202
McCue, Charles:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    90
McCurdy, Cully:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    65
McGowan, MaryAnn:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   203
McLaughlin, Amy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   204
McMinn, Ed:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    67
    Letter for the Record........................................   205
McMurray, George:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   206
McNeal, James Todd:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   207
Meines, Jill:
    Letter for the Record........................................   208
Mercer County (WV) Commission:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    20
Millar, Amy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   209
Millard, Jan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   210
Miller, Hon. Carol D.:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   211
Mills, Mary:
    Letter for the Record........................................   212
Moder, Brett:
    Letter for the Record........................................   213
Montgomery, Marilyn:
    Letter for the Record........................................   214
Moore, William:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   215
Moyer, John:
    Letter for the Record........................................   216
Mumma, Scott:
    Letter for the Record........................................   217
National Parks Conservation Association:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   218
Naylor, Tina M.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   227
New River Gorge Convention & Visitors Bureau:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    22
New River Gorge Regional Development Authority:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    24
Oldfield, Dr. Baird:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   228
Parker, Kenny:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    78
Paugh, Michael A.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   229
Pearson, Tony:
    Letter for the Record........................................   230
Perry, Terri L.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   231
Phillips, Jonathan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   232
Pittman, Sandy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   233
Prior, Heidi:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    91
Proctor, Jeff:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    75
Quinn, Lee Ann:
    Letter for the Record........................................   234
Raleigh County (WV) Commission:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    26
Rappold, Hon. Rob:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    79
Ratcliff, Ron:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   235
Redner, Kirk:
    Letter for the Record........................................   236
Regan, David Andrew:
    Letter for the Record........................................   237
Reilly, Chris:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   238
Rhinehart, Lewis M.:
    Letter for the Record........................................    30
Richards, Kevin:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   239
Ridgway, Debra L.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   240
Ritchie, Joe:
    Letter for the Record........................................   241
Roadcap, Connie:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   242
Roberson, Jr., James A.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   243
Robertson, Wanda:
    Letter for the Record........................................   244
Rosser, Angie:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    84
Roth, Wade:
    Letter for the Record........................................   245
Rowan, Mary Alice:
    Letter for the Record........................................   246
Ruby, Chelsea A.:
    Opening Statement............................................    46
    Written Testimony............................................    48
S. 2555..........................................................    96
Sasala, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   247
Schessler, Elizabeth M.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   248
Schindler, Deanna:
    Letter for the Record........................................   249
Schumann, Jake:
    Letter for the Record........................................   250
Schweer, Tom:
    Letter for the Record........................................   251
Scono, Peggy and Joe:
    Letter for the Record........................................   252
Simpson, Melody:
    Letter for the Record........................................   253
Simpson, Patti:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   254
Skaggs, John:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    82
Skeenes, Jeremy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   255
Slone, Elizabeth:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    91
Smith, Mitchell:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    85
Smith, Roy:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    79
Stearmer, Janille:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   256
Stephenson, Sidney:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   257
Strader, Greg:
    Letter for the Record........................................   258
Strader, Lisa:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    68
Sullivan, Becky:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    72
Summers County (WV) Commission:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    31
Sweeney, Christopher:
    Letter for the Record........................................   259
Szekely, Meagan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   260
Terrell, Kevin:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    76
Terrell, Richard P.:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   261
Tipton, Dorothy M.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   262
Toothman, Stephanie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   263
Trierwiler, Dean and Melody:
    Letter for the Record........................................   264
Tuxhorn, Bruce:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   265
Vanegas, Emily:
    Letter for the Record........................................   266
VanVoorhis, Tim:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   267
Waggy, Deborah:
    Letter for the Record........................................   268
Waldron, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   269
Watts, Lizzie:
    Opening Statement............................................    41
    Written Testimony............................................    44
Weiksnar, Tom and Family:
    Letter for the Record........................................   270
Wender, Matt:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    74
West Virginia Association of Convention & Visitors Bureaus:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    34
West Virginia Council of Trout Unlimited:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   271
West Virginia Hospitality & Travel Association:
    Resolution for the Record....................................    36
    Statement for the Record.....................................   272
West Virginia House of Delegates:
    Concurrent Resolution 50 for the Record......................    38
Whittington, Joseph:
    Letter for the Record........................................   273
Whyle, Christine:
    Letter for the Record........................................   274
Williams, Sarah E.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   275
Williamson, H.L.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   276
Wilson, Roger:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    70
    Letter for the Record........................................   277
Wilson, Valerie:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   278
Wolfe, Bo and Bethany:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   279
Woodard, Donna:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   281
Woodbury, Brian:
    Letter for the Record........................................   282
Woodrum, Jack David:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    63
Wulff, Diana:
    Letter for the Record........................................   283
Yeakel, Erica:
    Letter for the Record........................................   284
Yoder, Chris:
    Letter for the Record........................................   285
Yuhasz, Dallas:
    Comment for the Record.......................................   286
Zirkle, Christina:
    Letter for the Record........................................   287

 
S. 2555, A BILL TO DESIGNATE THE NEW RIVER GORGE NATIONAL RIVER IN THE 
   STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA AS THE ``NEW RIVER GORGE NATIONAL PARK AND 
                   PRESERVE,'' AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

                              ----------                              


                      SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 2020

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                       Beckley, WV.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:40 a.m. at the 
Governor Hulett C. Smith Theatre, Tamarack Conference Center, 
1 Tamarack Park, Beckley, West Virginia, Hon. Joe Manchin III, 
Ranking Member of the Committee, presiding.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE MANCHIN III, 
                U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Manchin. We are going to call the meeting to order.
    I would like to welcome everyone to the legislative hearing 
of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee. I want to 
thank you for taking time out of your Saturday to be here 
today. The purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony on 
Senate bill 2555, which would redesignate the New River Gorge 
National River as the New River Gorge National Park and 
Preserve. This hearing is an important step in the legislative 
process and will help inform us as we consider modifications to 
the bill as it moves forward through Committee.
    As Ranking Member of the Committee, I am particularly proud 
to be hosting this hearing here in Beckley with my friend and 
colleague, Senator Capito, and we are very close to the Park, 
as you know. Although she, unfortunately, had a conflict that 
kept her from being here today, I would like to thank also 
another good friend of mine, who is the Chairman of the 
Committee, we sit on the Committee together, Senator Lisa 
Murkowski. Her staff is with us today also, and for her support 
in getting this hearing approved.
    Any time we hold an official hearing outside of Washington, 
it has to be approved by the Committee to be an official 
meeting. All of our staff, court reporters, everything, comes 
with us for this, so we are very pleased with that.
    The process for this hearing will be as such. I want to 
take a moment and explain the procedures that we are going to 
be following this morning. First, as I mentioned, this is an 
official legislative hearing of the Committee. This means that 
we will have a video and audio recording and there will be a 
public transcript that will include all of the comments we 
receive today.
    If you have a cell phone, please turn it on silent or off. 
It would help a lot for the meeting to go the way it is 
supposed to go. I believe all recordings and video is 
prohibited during this period of time, since we are taking the 
official one up here.
    Following the discussion with our panel of witnesses, 
members of the public will have the opportunity to provide a 
statement for the record. To ensure everyone gets a chance to 
speak, we are asking that you sign up, if you haven't already, 
and limit your comments to no more than two minutes. If you 
prefer to submit a written statement, the hearing record will 
be open for two weeks and instructions are available on the 
agenda.
    With the housekeeping out of the way, let me jump right 
into the concern that I know many of you have had, ensuring 
that hunting and fishing within the existing New River Gorge 
National River will be allowed to continue. These activities 
are important to our heritage and culture in West Virginia, and 
protecting them is a top priority. But as many of you know, 
hunting is not allowed in national parks. So Senator Capito and 
I proposed the idea of a national park and preserve 
designation, because hunting and fishing are allowed in 
national preserve areas.
    Together we have worked closely with the National Park 
Service, who helped us put together different options of how a 
possible national park and preserve designation might work. The 
area designated as a national park would include much of the 
Lower New River Gorge and key historic sites so that the park 
designation includes the major scenic and historic features and 
is consistent with other national park designations.
    Meanwhile, the rest of the existing national river boundary 
would be designated a national preserve. Hunting within the 
preserve area will continue to be managed in the same manner as 
hunting is presently allowed in the New River Gorge National 
River, and fishing will continue in both the national park and 
national preserve areas, exactly as it is right now.
    I also want to make it clear that nothing in the bill 
prohibits hunting, fishing or trapping on private lands. I 
repeat, nothing in the bill prohibits fishing or trapping on 
private lands. The National Park Service should not be 
regulating private lands, but we included language to make this 
perfectly clear that trapping is allowed on private lands.
    In my opinion, the only way a national park and preserve 
designation will be successful is if there is a broad support 
from local communities and stakeholders, including the affected 
sportsmen's groups. I recognize the national park designation 
requires tradeoffs between protecting these resources in the 
national park, encouraging economic growth and protecting 
traditional hunting and fishing access. It is important to have 
these discussions here in this public setting. Our goal is to 
make sure that we provide for appropriate protection of the 
national park resources while at the same time preserving the 
culture and heritage of this amazing area.
    The next legislative step after this hearing will be 
consideration of the bill by the full Senate Energy and Natural 
Resources Committee at which time we will have an opportunity 
to make any changes.
    So thank you, all of you, for turning out today and for 
previously held public meetings that we have had on this bill, 
and I want to hear directly from you on your thoughts and 
comments about this proposal.
    With that, I would like to recognize the other co-sponsor 
of the bill, Senator Shelley Capito, my colleague, for any 
remarks that she would like to make.
    Senator Capito.

            STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
                U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Yes, thank you, Senator Manchin. I just 
want to say this is an incredible turnout of very interested, 
passionate and information-seeking West Virginians. I am just 
really proud of, I am sure that when this Committee goes back 
to Washington, they are going to say, you can't believe the 
public participation by West Virginians. It is just amazing. So 
I want to thank the audience, first of all, for coming and 
joining us.
    I want to thank Senator Manchin, too. He is the Ranking 
Member on this Committee. It is a critical position for him to 
be in on a lot of different issues that are important to our 
state. I want to thank you for bringing the Committee here on 
the bill that will redesignate this New River, national river, 
as a national park and preserve.
    In addition too, in her absence, I want to thank the 
Committee Chair, Lisa Murkowski, from Alaska. She was unable to 
attend but she will be absolutely pivotal in anything that 
moves forward from this point.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for taking the time 
today to come and share their thoughts on how they feel. I want 
to, again, thank all of you. I am pleased to be on the 
legislation with Senator Manchin as a co-sponsor to redesignate 
the New River Gorge National River as the New River Gorge 
National Park and Preserve.
    I am going to go through a little bit of the history. The 
New River Gorge was established as a national river in 1978. 
Some of you in the room were probably active with that. The New 
River Gorge comprises 72,000 acres of land along 53 miles of 
the New River, stretching from the Bluestone Dam to Hawks Nest. 
The New River Gorge has been cherished by generations of West 
Virginians, many in this room, and serves as a real source of 
pride for our state. It encapsulates our Appalachian heritage 
which Senator Manchin, I think, really addressed, while 
preserving those longstanding traditions of hunting and fishing 
in our state.
    Casual adventurers and thrill seekers alike come to the New 
River Gorge to raft its world class rapids, hike the scenic 
trails, climb the treacherous rock faces, I am actually not 
doing that, and watch the BASE jumpers, which I don't do 
either. I do watch them, but I don't BASE jump. Have you ever 
BASE jumped?
    Senator Manchin. They tried to push me off.
    Senator Capito. They tried to push----
    [Laughter.]
    Was that me?
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Manchin. You were out there rooting.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Capito. In any event, they catapult on Bridge Day 
which we all really enjoy with the breathtaking views.
    After hearing from a growing chorus of constituents, 
business owners and local officials, I decided it was time to 
take action to elevate the stature of the New River National 
River into the National Park System. We have had numerous 
meetings, and many of you have been in the meetings. We have 
been to three meetings ourselves, together, with a whole host 
of interested parties, but my staff and Joe's staff have also 
been out, and also the staff of the Committee has been out 
numerous times, to make sure that we are listening to 
everybody. But today is a unique opportunity.
    With unanimous consent, I am asking Joe to let me submit 
for the public record of this hearing letters of support from 
eight local governments, three local trade associations, three 
local businesses, the New River Gorge Regional Development 
Authority, the Fayette County Commission, the Giles County 
Virginia Board of Supervisors and also text of a West Virginia 
House of Delegates Concurrent Resolution 50 that was done in 
2019.
    So, unanimous consent?
    Senator Manchin. Granted.
    Senator Capito. I am winning already.
    [Letters of support follow.]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Capito. Okay, in any event, these----
    Senator Manchin. Without any objections.
    Senator Capito. This is serious. These letters, I think, 
represent voices of how this change would draw more tourists, 
and we are going to hear about this, outdoor recreationalists 
and others, and encourage more Americans to come and enjoy the 
beauty that we see here in our state.
    As many of you know, last November, as a response to all 
this, I introduced a much different bill, broader bill, that 
would have only changed the entire park to just a national 
park. But I knew, and I had specific language in there that 
said that we could preserve the hunting and fishing parameters 
that we had had in the national river but, as many of you know, 
in national parks, hunting is not permitted. So this, I think, 
approach is much, much improved, and we have talked a lot about 
this, a much more viable alternative.
    In addition to the meeting in December 2018, we had a 
sportsmen roundtable with Senator Manchin at the headquarters 
with seven sportsmen's groups and past DNR Commissioners to 
keep everyone apprised. But we learned at that meeting that 
some people were still taken by surprise by this----
    Senator Manchin. Right.
    Senator Capito. ----that they felt like they had not been 
quite informed as to what was going on. So then we held a 
public meeting at the Canyon Rim Visitor Center in October, 
this last October. I think this legislation, as it is being 
worked, balances the interests of all diverse stakeholders to 
create a robust national park worthy of the title and 
preserving the right to hunt in nearly 64,500 acres.
    Under the current statute, hunting must be permitted in at 
least a portion of the national river area, but the amount of 
acreage is not specifically defined right now. There is nothing 
in the current statute that expresses Congressional intent on 
how much land should be open for hunting and where that land 
should be. The New River Gorge National Park and Preserve 
Designation Act provides specific protections for hunting and 
fishing in the 64,495 acre preserve, recognizing that we, as 
Members of Congress, intend for this land to be permanently 
available to our sportsmen.
    As it exists now in this bill, 7,691 acres of the national 
park will incorporate the most scenic overlooks and historic 
elements of the New River Gorge and maximize the availability 
to visitors from around West Virginia and outside of West 
Virginia to maximize their enjoyment. This redesignation will 
give the area's economy a much-needed boost by raising national 
awareness of a site that encapsulates and makes West Virginia 
wild and wonderful.
    I look forward to the discussion today. I would like to 
thank all of the members of my staff and the staff that came 
from Washington to move forward. With this, I look forward to 
the rest of the meeting.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate it.
    Let me explain to you how the timing works too. We have 
Darla here and Darla runs the Committee. Basically what she 
does, she keeps us on time. The reason for the timing, and if 
you have ever watched us on television, you will see it, we 
always have these in front of us when we are talking and we 
have it right now at five minutes. So each one of our witnesses 
will have five minutes. You will see it go to a yellow, that 
means you are coming down to the last minute and then, red.
    Not to be rude, I don't want to be rude, whatsoever, but I 
will say your time has elapsed and hopefully you all will 
understand at that time, you know, kind of, wrap it up, but if 
you watch this, so when you all are talking, the same thing. If 
someone is up there when your two minutes, when it starts 
getting close within 30 seconds, this will come on, the yellow 
and then the red and at that time I would have to ask you if 
you could continue to wrap this up so we have as much 
participation as possible.
    With that, let me start with our witnesses and welcome them 
and introduce them to you.
    Providing testimony for the Administration is Lizzie Watts. 
I think most people know Lizzie here. She is the Superintendent 
of the New River Gorge National River. I want to thank Lizzie 
and all the National Park Service (NPS) staff for their work 
over many months to help us identify options--and I repeat, 
options--for possible designation of the New River Gorge as a 
National Park and Preserve.
    To provide some additional perspectives, we have witnesses 
from a variety of backgrounds.
    Chelsea Ruby--Chelsea, if you will raise your hand there. 
Chelsea is basically the Director of the West Virginia Tourism 
Commission. She is here to provide the state's perspective on 
the recreation economy.
    Next to Chelsea we have Jerod Harman. Jerod is President of 
the West Virginia Wildlife Federation. He is here with us today 
to give some perspective from the hunting and sportsmen's 
communities.
    And then we have Rick Johnson. Rick is a resident of Oak 
Hill, West Virginia, and the owner of River Expeditions, a 
lodge and outfitter that operates rafting trips on the New 
River.
    I want to thank each and every one of you, again, for being 
here and giving of your time and your expertise. Lizzie, we are 
going to start with you.

  STATEMENT OF LIZZIE WATTS, SUPERINTENDENT, NEW RIVER GORGE 
 NATIONAL RIVER, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE 
                            INTERIOR

    Ms. Watts. Good morning, folks. I, too, want to take just a 
second to thank everybody for coming. This has been a group 
effort and we really do, we're very thrilled with how many 
people want to say and want to share their opinions because it 
will make it all better in the long run, but we really do 
appreciate you coming today.
    Ranking Member Manchin and Senator Capito, I thank you for 
the opportunity to present the Department of the Interior's 
views on Senate bill 2555, to designate the New River Gorge 
National River here in the State of West Virginia as the New 
River Gorge National Park and Preserve. We do not object to the 
naming of the New River Gorge National River as the National 
River Gorge National Park and Preserve with hunting allowed in 
only the areas designated as the preserve as this bill would 
do.
    But we would like to continue to work with you and the 
members of the Committee on suggested alternatives. The 
Department appreciates that you, the sponsors of this 
legislation, and the Senate Energy and Natural Resources 
Committee share our interest in adhering to the longstanding 
precedent and traditions in the designation of the units of 
National Park System. We appreciate your efforts to avoid 
naming areas where hunting is allowed as a national park. To do 
so would not only, would not be consistent with the National 
Park Service and Congressional precedence. The National Park 
Service presented options to you for your consideration last 
spring, and we present them again here today.
    Option one is to informally rather than statutorily refer 
to the New River Gorge National River, the Gauley River 
National Recreation Area and the Bluestone National Scenic 
River as National Parks of Southern West Virginia. Signs, 
brochures and marketing materials could be used to use that 
name. It is the same approach actually being used in other park 
groups, including the National Parks of New York Harbor, the 
National Parks of Eastern North Carolina, the National Parks of 
Western Pennsylvania and the National Mall and Memorial Parks. 
These parks grouped capitalize on proximity to markets, to 
market their units within the context of their geographic 
areas. No legislation would be required to adopt this approach 
and the principal benefit of this approach is that it offers 
the use of the name national park and a little NP brand without 
adhering to and without affecting hunting.
    Another option would be to designate the entire New River 
Gorge National River as the New River Gorge National Recreation 
Area. Such a designation would be consistent with the standard 
NPS nomenclature for units that allow hunting as well as other 
recreational activities. It would have no effect or little 
effect on the hunting opportunities. Other areas, such as that 
national recreation area in the National Park System, include 
Lake Mead, Glen Canyon and Delaware Water Gap. Of course, of 
the options, that would redesignate New River Gorge by statute. 
This alternative is the most consistent with the National Park 
Service management of similar units.
    The legislation under discussion today is largely similar 
to the options developed by the National Park Service to 
designate the New River Gorge National River as New River Gorge 
National Park and Preserve. In this proposal, the National Park 
part of the unit would be designated for four, non-contiguous 
areas that encompass approximately 7,000 acres of land and 
reflects the most scenic and historically significant portions 
of the park as is the standard for all areas that are 
designated national parks. The National Preserve portion of the 
unit would encompass the balance of land within the present 
boundary, approximately 64,495 acres. A concern that has been 
raised is that it would close approximately 4,385 acres where 
hunting is presently allowed and would change access to a 
couple of popular hunting areas.
    The last option we presented would also designate the New 
River Gorge National River as the New River Gorge National Park 
and Preserve but with fewer acres designated as national park--
this proposal identifies five, non-contiguous areas comprised 
of about 1,800 acres that are already closed to hunting. The 
National Park Preserve would encompass the remaining 70,000. 
This alternative would not affect hunting opportunities, 
however, with the exception of Canyon Rim, it does not set 
aside the most significant natural and scenic and biological 
resources as the National Park in the national park area.
    The Department would like to continue to work with you and 
the other members of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources 
Committee to try to solve any or issues around S. 2555.
    Ranking Member Manchin and Senator Capito, this concludes 
my statement, and I would please to answer any questions you 
have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Watts follows:]
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    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Lizzie. Chelsea, you will be 
next. If you will, please give us your perspective from the 
economic side.

   STATEMENT OF CHELSEA A. RUBY, TOURISM COMMISSIONER, WEST 
 VIRGINIA TOURISM OFFICE, WEST VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

    Ms. Ruby. Sure.
    Good morning, Ranking----
    Senator Manchin. Chelsea, if you will pull that up close to 
you.
    Ms. Ruby. There we go.
    Alright, good morning, Ranking Member Manchin, Senator 
Capito. It's an honor to be here today to talk about the 
proposed New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. I want to 
thank you both for holding this hearing about what is a 
tremendous opportunity for West Virginia. I'm the envy of my 
counterparts in other states today. As you all know, national 
parks are the gold standard for tourism and I can tell you, 
without hesitation, that my counterparts in the other 20 states 
that don't have national parks, they would love to be having 
this conversation this morning. So I want to thank you both for 
looking at this important piece of legislation.
    On behalf of Governor Justice, I want to begin by saying 
that the State of West Virginia strongly supports the creation 
of the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. The Gorge is 
one of West Virginia's most beautiful and iconic places with 
its wild rapids, rugged mountains and majestic views. It's 
those very mountains and majestic views that have led us to 
talking about the potential growth there has been in West 
Virginia's tourism industry for years. I know this community 
knows about the impact of tourism in West Virginia, but you 
might not know the sheer magnitude or the growth in recent 
years.
    Tourism in West Virginia is a $4.6 billion industry. It 
supports more than 45,000 jobs, and the best news is that it's 
growing. Our last economic impact report showed growth in all 
nine travel regions in West Virginia. Our growth over the last 
two years, we've seen 9.9 percent increases in travel or 
spending. We are outpacing the national rate of growth for 
tourism by 58 percent. We're becoming a national leader, and I 
believe that we're just getting started. There's a lot more 
that we can do.
    Designating this area as a national park will generate 
significant and immediate boost to tourism here. For many 
travelers, the national park designation is a kind of seal of 
approval. It's the confirmation that a designation that this 
place would be one of the nation's greatest places and that 
it's a place you need to see. The New River Gorge certainly 
deserves to be recognized as one of those places and when it 
is, we expect that we will see double-digit increases in 
visitation right away. Having this designation will immediately 
put us on the map for a whole new group of people.
    Last year the National Park Service saw over 319 million 
visitors and park designations, or redesignations, result in 
huge boosts. For example, the most recent one was in Indiana, 
the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore was changed over to the 
Indiana Dunes National Park. As soon as that happened, they 
started seeing record-breaking attendance. According to the 
Associated Press, in July, just after it was redesignated, 
their attendance doubled. It grew by over 50,000 visitors in 
one month, that was looking at July to the previous July. This 
designation has brought national and international attention to 
Porter, Indiana. Imagine what this attention could do for West 
Virginia. It has a huge potential to greatly expand the state's 
tourism economy and brand us as a major tourism destination on 
the East Coast. If you look at a map of national parks, you see 
there are many of them on the West Coast, but we don't have as 
many on the East Coast so this would be an exciting thing for 
the entire region.
    We, at the West Virginia Tourism Office, stand ready to 
launch a major marketing campaign to promote the park as soon 
as it's created. Governor Justice and our legislature have 
invested significantly more resources in tourism over the past 
couple of years. Just last year, the tourism budget in West 
Virginia was tripled. We had one of the highest budget 
increases in the country so we stand ready and able to assist 
with this as soon as a designation is changed. We also would be 
able to help with the economic development that I believe would 
happen as soon as this designation were to be changed. So if 
you look at areas where the designations have changed or 
national parks have been created, existing businesses expand, 
new businesses come in and I'm happy to tell you that in West 
Virginia, we have one of the best tax credit programs in the 
nation for incentivizing tourism development. It's given us 
commitments of more than $240 million of new projects that will 
be coming over the next couple of years. So we stand ready to 
assist with that as well.
    I'm happy to take questions, but I want to end by saying 
this. The New River Gorge National Park and Preserve will be 
transformative for this region and the entire state. It's 
impossible for me to overstate what a positive difference this 
will make. If any site in the country is worthy of this 
designation, it's the New River Gorge.
    Thank you, Senator Capito, for beginning this process in 
2018, and thanks to both of you for supporting this current 
bill and for your support of the park and preserve. This is a 
wonderful chance to benefit our state and to bring this 
magnificent area the recognition it deserves.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Ruby follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Manchin. Thank you. Now we will go to Jerod Harman, 
President of the West Virginia Wildlife Federation.
    Mr. Harman.

             STATEMENT OF JEROD HARMAN, PRESIDENT, 
               WEST VIRGINIA WILDLIFE FEDERATION

    Mr. Harman. Thank you, Senators Capito and Manchin, for 
allowing me to speak on behalf of the sportsmen this morning. 
I'm going to try my best to address some things shortly. I 
don't think I'll need five minutes. So maybe if someone runs 
over, they can have a few seconds of my time.
    I appreciate the opportunity that our sportsmen's 
organizations had to be a part of this process and to 
communicate openly with our senators in attempts to create the 
New River National Park and Preserve. We worked diligently to 
make reasonable requests that made common sense. Simply put, 
our requests were to make the New River Gorge area better for 
the sportsmen and to be considerate of all visitors. 
Unfortunately, we did not get what we asked for in order to 
gain support from the sportsmen for this proposal.
    Sportsmen and sportswomen and our youth would give up a lot 
of good hunting ground if this proposal passes. This is a major 
problem with our sportsmen. Additionally, the future 
regulations for privately-owned land within park boundaries are 
now in question and that is not acceptable to the landowners 
and the sportsmen who hunt there. We asked for trapping to be 
permitted, and it was not. There's no exception, necessarily, 
for archery, and we'd like to see something spelled out within 
the 500-foot boundaries on that.
    The potential exists for user fees within the new national 
park designation and this creates yet another concern for the 
sportsmen. Also, the possible new jurisdiction for outfitters 
for hunting and fishing around the New River would create 
additional and unnecessary red tape for them.
    These are just some of our concerns that sportsmen's groups 
need addressed for our support of a national park and preserve 
designation. Our simple requests have not been met, and the 
loss of additional hunting ground and potential access is 
completely unacceptable to the sportsmen and sportsmen's 
groups. We, the sportsmen, are going to be some of the biggest 
losers, and we strongly oppose the designation for the New 
River Gorge. Should changes be made to the proposal that 
support the sportsmen's request and could potentially get us 
all on common ground, we very much look forward to receiving 
them for consideration.
    We thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Harman follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mr. Harman.
    Our panel will conclude with Mr. Rick Johnson. Rick is a 
resident of Oak Hill, and he is the owner of River Expeditions.
    Rick, do you want to pull that a little closer to you? Yes.

           STATEMENT OF RICHARD ``RICK'' A. JOHNSON, 
                    OWNER, RIVER EXPEDITIONS

    Mr. Johnson. Good morning, everybody. Thank you, Senators 
Capito and Manchin and the Senate Energy and Natural Resources 
Committee, for inviting me and holding this hearing in West 
Virginia. I'm Rick Johnson. My wife and I own River Expeditions 
in Fayette County, West Virginia. I'm an anomaly in the rafting 
industry having formerly been a coal operator; managed timber 
properties; as well as being an avid sportsman. I live and work 
in West Virginia by choice.
    Southern West Virginia, since the late 1800s, has relied on 
the coal industry for its jobs and economic prosperity. This 
has changed. Tourism has become the new economic engine in the 
area. We all agree that Southern West Virginia faces 
challenges, high unemployment from lost coal-related jobs, drug 
abuse, diminishing population. How can we keep families here in 
the short-term while retaining high school and college 
graduates for tomorrow's workforce?
    We recognize the need for an economic driver that will grow 
the region's economy by providing jobs and tax revenue. As you 
know, the New River Gorge National River has been under the 
National Park Service umbrella since 1978. This has been a 
mutually beneficial partnership for everyone. We are thankful 
to Congress and Ray Hall and Senator Byrd, who had the 
foresight to designate these three national recreation areas in 
Southern West Virginia. Now is the time to expand the realm of 
the national river area, one national river area getting the 
designation of the National Park and Preserve. We believe this 
to be the resource which economic, historic and environmental 
sustainability will come together for the greater good of the 
region, state and nation. It is time for West Virginia to 
finally have a national park. We would join an elite group, 
some of the most cherished natural wonders in the country which 
number only 62, and take our place alongside parks such as 
Denali and Yosemite.
    Under the new designation everything will remain the same 
concerning rules and regulations--it's simply a name change. 
This is a win-win for everyone. The synergy between the 
National Park Service and the West Virginia DNR and the park 
users will remain unchanged. Research supports the fact that 
national parks nationwide are an economic engine. The potential 
is unlimited in Southern West Virginia, but sources report an 
average of 21 percent increase in visitation in new parks.
    The most visited park in North America is in Appalachia. 
It's the Great Smoky Mountains National Park with over 11 
million visitors annually which is almost double the number of 
visitors for the next closest park which is the Grand Canyon, 
one of the modern seven wonders of the world. Just think what a 
national park designation could do for Southern West Virginia, 
one of the most economically depressed areas in America but 
within six hours drive of 42 million people. Tourism is the 
only resource that has ever existed in Central Appalachia where 
all the money stays here, not going out of state and this 
resource renews itself every day.
    I'm a lifelong hunter and member and donor of the National 
Wild Turkey Federation, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, 
Ducks Unlimited, Safari Club International, National Rifle 
Association and America Outdoors. I've always been an ethical 
hunter following and respecting rules and regulations and the 
rights of landowners. This is why I've always found it odd that 
folks have a strange attachment to land they've never owned. 
Generations of people in the area have broken the law 
trespassing on land that was privately owned by hunting, 
fishing and camping, almost as if it were an entitlement. It 
was not until the Park Service purchased the land in the late 
'70s that it became legally accessible to everyone. In fact, 
without the purchase of this land by the Park Service, there 
would be little or no public land to hunt on in this area since 
currently most of the large tracts of land have been leased by 
private hunting clubs.
    There are currently several areas in the New River Gorge 
National River that are closed to hunting, but there may be an 
additional small area proposed, in the new proposed park. This 
area is so small in acreage it's inconsequential that tens of 
thousands of acres that the Park Service is explicitly leaving 
open to hunting in perpetuity. A friend of mine who does not 
hunt asked me recently what part of the park he could hike on 
with his grandkids during hunting season without disturbing 
hunters and avoiding the danger of being shot. I told him while 
there were over 64,000 acres within the proposed park and 
preserve that allowed hunting, there would be several thousand 
acres that weren't open to hunting so people who didn't hunt 
but wanted to enjoy the park could do so safely and without 
worry. It was then it occurred to me how selfish we are as 
hunters that protecting every acre of hunting land without any 
consideration for those who don't hunt that are also entitled 
to enjoy the same beauty and resources we take for granted. And 
for this I was almost embarrassed and a little ashamed.
    In closing, I support, I'm in support of the park and 
preserve designation and welcome opportunity for increased 
visitation and economic development. The new designation will 
foster good stewardship, ultimately exposing future generations 
of this region to our country. Thanks again, Senators Manchin 
and Capito, for your vision to create a national park in West 
Virginia and allowing me to testify.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Johnson follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Manchin. Thank you all.
    Now we will go into our question part of the hearing, and I 
will explain how we will do this. I will start with questions 
first, and then Senator Capito will have her questions, then I 
will open it up to the audience. We have a mic down front, and 
we have portable mics. Who has the portable mics?
    Okay, Terri, right there. Do we have any others?
    Ms. Berkley. That's also a portable----
    Senator Manchin. Okay.
    Ms. Berkley. This one over here.
    Senator Manchin. So we have this one here if you can get in 
front. If you can't, raise your hand. Terri will get to you, we 
will get you a mic.
    Also what we are going to do, David Brooks--David, if you 
will stand?
    David Brooks, basically, has over 30 years' experience. He 
has written about every piece of legislation that deals with a 
national park or preserve in the entire United States. So he 
has more experience working with Senator Murkowski's staff, but 
David has been on the front of this for many, many years so we 
have an expert here. He will point out as we are talking, and a 
question might be asked and someone starts answering and 
talking about a certain part, David will try to point it out 
with a laser so you can follow along.
    At any time if something doesn't make sense or something 
after a person is done asking a question, please raise your 
hand. I will try to acknowledge it so we can get clarification 
if you need it.
    Basically, all the comments you make are for the record. Us 
giving you our opinion doesn't, at this point in time, we are 
going to ask our questions which, I think, hopefully, we can 
answer through the question and answer period. This all gets 
put into the record which goes to Washington. So that is when 
we really do the markup, finding out the facts that we are 
going to be dealing with.
    With that, I am going to start with my questions first, and 
I have a few to ask.
    This goes to Ms. Lizzie Watts. Ms. Watts, it is critical 
that we all have the facts as we discuss the park and preserve 
designation. The bill designates approximately 7,691 acres as 
national park.
    David, did you want to point it out?
    Mr. Brooks. Sure.
    Senator Manchin. It designates 7,691 acres as national park 
with the rest as national preserve.
    [David Brooks delineates projected map.]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Brooks. So the preserve would all be included here and 
then the individual national park areas would be here, here--
there and by the----
    Senator Manchin. So everything that has the circle is 
basically going to be in the new national park area?
    Mr. Brooks. That's in the bill right now.
    Senator Manchin. That is in the bill right now. And 
everything that is not in those circles is open to be used as 
we have always used them, right?
    Mr. Brooks. Right.
    Senator Manchin. The hunting is permitted.
    Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir.
    Senator Manchin. Ms. Watts, how many of those 7,691 acres 
are currently open to hunting? That is my first question. And 
the follow-up on that, do we know how much hunting activity 
occurs in these areas?
    Ms. Watts. Right now, right now, presently----
    Senator Manchin. You need your mic. Hold it, just pull it 
out of there and hold it, if you will. Yes, go ahead.
    Ms. Watts. Can you all hear?
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Ms. Watts. Presently, as we operate today, there's 7,000 
acres that he was referring to, Senator Manchin was referring 
to, but of those acres, of everything that was hunted last year 
is the second answer and that's probably the easiest, but of 
all the 72,000 acres within the park minus there's about 1,381 
acres that right now we do not allow hunting and then those 
areas are safety zones around really busy visitor areas such as 
Canyon Rim Visitor Center. But all the other areas are open to 
hunting. With the change it goes down to about 4,300 or so 
acres that would be closed to hunting.
    But Senator Manchin, you asked me how much the take was?
    Senator Manchin. How much activity is on that hunting and 
how much harvest has been?
    Ms. Watts. The harvest for the last year for tags--there 
were 52 deer taken out of that 68,000, 69,000 acres. There were 
52 deer, there were 9 turkey and there was 1 bear.
    Senator Manchin. My second question.
    Hold on now, hold on.
    [Someone speaking out from the audience.]
    What is that?
    Senator Capito. Stats from where?
    Senator Manchin. Stats from where?
    Ms. Watts. Those stats came from the Division of Natural 
Resources.
    Audience Member #1. The only way you would report that, 
when you're tagging in your animal, is if you report your 
animal tagged online--where they would then ask if you went to 
check stations----
    Senator Manchin. Okay.
    Audience Member #1. The DNR officer, they would not ask for 
that information, so there's no way----
    Senator Manchin. Okay. We will follow up with it. Thank 
you.
    Ms. Watts. We'll follow up, because I love getting those 
statistics. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Here is the other thing. First question, 
on the question. This goes to Mr. Harman, okay?
    I appreciate your testimony but you express concern about 
future regulation in hunting and trapping on private property 
as well as concerns that hunting closures may be put into place 
within 500 feet of buildings. We drafted the bill to try and 
clarify that hunting in the areas designated as national 
preserve will be managed in the same manner as currently 
allowed. One of the reasons I am glad that we are having the 
hearing is to discuss these issues on the record. I am also 
glad that we have the National Park Service represented as 
well. So perhaps we can clarify some of the potential impacts.
    So the question would go--and that was Mr. Harman, the 
statement that you made.
    So again, Lizzie, can you please address the concerns 
brought up by Mr. Harman and others about regulation to private 
property and hunting rights? In other words, does anything in 
the bill or the existing law allow the park to regulate these 
activities on private property?
    Ms. Watts. No, sir. The new bill will not change how it's 
operated today, and we do not regulate on state--on private 
property from----
    Senator Manchin. Good, okay. Does the Park Service close 
areas within 500 feet of buildings to all hunting and would 
that change?
    Ms. Watts. Actually, the compendium does--there are two 
legislative options that are tied to that. One is what's in 
DNR, Division of Natural Resources, rules and regulations for 
hunting and fishing. They have closures for certain things. 
Then we have federal closures which are called the CFR, Code of 
Federal Regulations, and we adopt most of the state rules.
    There is one difference that I am aware of and there are 
probably more, but there's one in particular that actually 
talks about how far you can be away from buildings. It is not 
in our compendium that says buildings. We actually say there 
are three places in particular--campgrounds, visitor centers 
and public access areas like boat launches--where we have a lot 
of the public at one time using an area and it is not--we 
adopted the 500 feet which was in the state rules.
    Senator Manchin. Finally, my final question, then I will 
turn it over to Senator Capito, is again to Ms. Watts and it is 
basically the concern that the designation as a national park 
and preserve will alter the permits and fees required for the 
activities of people to enjoy the New River. I know the New 
River Gorge National River does not currently charge an 
entrance fee. But do you have the authority to charge user fees 
under the current law? The way things are right now, could you 
charge a fee? Could you design or designate a fee for that and, 
in other words, could the park start charging, if they chose to 
do so? And the follow-up to that is does the bill change any 
authorities when it comes to permitting commercial outfitting 
or charging user fees, as been stated?
    Ms. Watts. It changes nothing. It will be operated just as 
it has in the past. The bill has no reflection on that and 
there are no entrance fees at this point in time and commercial 
use fees are the only fees that we collect and that's for 
commercial businesses that actually make money within the park 
and that's required by federal law.
    Senator Manchin. Senator Capito.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Watts. You're welcome.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Mr. Harman, the current law permits hunting in at least a 
portion of the National River area but, I mentioned this in my 
statement, the acreage is not specified in the existing law on 
the National River. Have you, in your conversations, ever, has 
anybody ever raised a concern with you of the present 
designation, that it is not specified, what areas in law, like 
we would be doing in this bill? Do you understand my question? 
I am probably not asking it as specifically. Have you ever 
heard a concern that it is not specifically laid out in the law 
how many acres you can presently hunt on and how many you 
cannot?
    Mr. Harman. It's always a concern. And, of course, we want 
to maintain as much opportunity to hunt as we possibly can and 
I don't know if that is really answering your question, but----
    Senator Capito. It does. It does, yes.
    Let's talk about the Lower Gorge because I think that is a 
source of concern for many of the sportsmen. Are you familiar 
with the hunting concerns in the Lower Gorge and could you 
specify that a little bit for me?
    Mr. Harman. There are truly some sportsmen in the room that 
are a lot more intimate that could answer those questions----
    Senator Capito. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Harman. ----better than myself.
    Senator Capito. But you have heard that, specifically?
    Mr. Harman. Yes.
    Senator Capito. Yes.
    So, to the Superintendent on the Lower Gorge issue, the 
terrain in this issue, my understanding is, that it is pretty 
dramatic in terms of what it is like to maneuver and access and 
everything. Can you describe that a little bit and why that 
might be an area that, that is part of the area that is of the 
area of contention of the acres that have been removed from the 
hunting designation. Can you talk about that a little bit?
    Ms. Watts. Yes, ma'am.
    Actually, the section of the Lower Gorge of the New is the 
most dramatic. It is from Nuttallburg, which is one of the most 
historic sites, and tells the history of Southern West 
Virginia, of coal mining, railroading and logging, but it also 
is the one that tells the story of how we're tied 
internationally and nationally to the industrial age of the 
state. It is the contributions of loggers, railroaders, hunters 
and everybody else that built this country.
    So we start at Nuttallburg and we go through this very 
steep, narrow gorge. It's where the gorge changes. It's the 
section that most whitewater rafters say is the most 
adventuresome. It is technically the hardest, but it's very, 
very steep. It also has one of the other recreational uses 
that's tremendous--which is, you see the Endless Wall?--and 
many of the rock climbers that climb there, and the scenic 
views from that section are the most dramatic in the park. 
You're on the rim and you're looking down 200 to 300 feet and 
you see this spectacular gorge.
    So it's that section that is very, very steep and it's hard 
to access. It's either by boat or you hike most places. And so, 
that's really the difference between that section of the 
Gorge----
    Senator Capito. Yes.
    Mr. Johnson, do you have any comment on the Lower Gorge 
issue?
    Mr. Johnson. Yes, ma'am. As the Superintendent said, you 
know, it's steeper than a cow's face. People, you know, if you 
go down----
    Senator Capito. It is what?
    Mr. Johnson. It's steeper than a cow's face. It's straight 
up and down. You know, it's something that most folks, unless 
they're in really good physical condition can hunt. I would 
call it, you need to be in sheep shape. In other words, you 
need to be able to get on a mountain to sheep hunt to use that 
property.
    Senator Capito. Well, that is a descriptor there, thank 
you.
    [Laughter.]
     Well, I think this is going to be, and I would encourage 
and I'm sure you all will because I know this is an area of 
contention that we will get some comments on this and 
clarifications from those of you who have used that area and 
are very concerned about it. So I would ask that.
    I do want to just reinforce what Senator Manchin said 
because Mr. Harman, it was in your statement on the trapping 
issue because we did cover this. We started out differently 
than we ended up, I think, in this bill. And you mentioned 
archery which, I will have to say, I am not sure we have 
actually considered archery like we need to----
    Senator Manchin. We need to clarify that.
    Senator Capito. ----so we need to clarify that as well. But 
there is now a preservation in the law that would preserve the 
ability to trap on the private lands is my understanding. So 
does that satisfy your concerns?
    Mr. Harman. That's, that's, that's better.
    [Laughter.]
    No, we're not satisfied but it's better. There's a lot of 
fuzzy things in here for us as sportsmen. We've tried to 
clarify some things and some of my comments have been more as 
comments as now we can clarify them for the record.
    Senator Capito. And that is why it is good----
    Mr. Harman. That gives us all a good opportunity.
    Senator Capito. And that is why we are--this is very 
important, I think.
    Last question I am going to ask is to the Superintendent on 
the 7,600 acres that would be designated as the Park. My 
understanding is that includes some private property and 
public. Could you illuminate on that, please? Do you know 
specifically?
    Ms. Watts. Yes, ma'am.
    The 76,000, I mean----
    Senator Capito. 7,600.
    Ms. Watts. ----7,600 acres that we're referring to that 
would be closed is really any both private land, state land, 
county land and federal land. There are areas in the northern 
section, in particular the gorge, the Lower Gorge section as it 
goes up, that is really private property. There's about 3,000 
acres of that that is either private or state, not owned by 
federal ownership.
    Audience Member #2. [Inaudible.]
    Senator Capito. Okay.
    Audience Member #2. [Inaudible.]
    Ms. Watts. I am sorry, pardon?
    Audience Member #2. The criteria used to determine where 
the circles are--is that the end of the private land and all 
that----?
    Ms. Watts. To be completely honest, the circles were really 
to make the maps easier to read and we found that has probably 
been more complicated with the circles because the circles are 
actually larger than what the real land----
    Senator Capito. Than what the designation----
    Ms. Watts. ----acquisition is or even within the boundary. 
We--the first set of maps, yeah, if you start at Nuttallburg 
and go up it will tell you where it is. It's not the whole 
circle. It's just, we thought, that was when we were doing the 
maps earlier, we thought that would be easier to recognize. We 
didn't realize that it would visually be so big because it's 
not. It's not as big as it looks.
    Senator Capito. Thank you, and thank you, Senator Manchin.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
    Let me explain to you now how we go into this next part of 
the program.
    During a public hearing like this I think we have people 
that have signed up. Terri, do you have their names?
    Ms. Berkley. Yes, sir.
    Senator Manchin. You will call the names out for the 
people. Give me at least three or four names so they can line 
up, if you want to come up front, and we will do this in an 
orderly manner.
    The panel here is not here to answer the questions. If we 
can get some of that in, we will. I don't want to take up your 
two minutes. Your statement goes into the record. The question 
you ask in your statement, we are going to get you answers. We 
are going to make sure that this thing is delved into and then 
work with you. That is the markup when we go to that, can we 
make the changes?
    Jerod, as you said, there are still some fuzzy areas of 
this or that or you don't like it at all, but if you don't like 
it at all or you like certain parts of it, make that as clear 
as we possibly can so there's no interpretation left for 
anybody else.
    With that, we are going to start. If you will, Terri, call 
the names of the people, the first four and we will start 
there.
    Ms. Berkley. Making a statement for the record is Mr. Jack 
David Woodrum, followed by Mr. Jim Campbell, Mr. Cully McCurdy 
and Mr. Glenn Coleman.
    Senator Manchin. If the four would work their way to the 
front in the order they were called, and we will take you as 
the witnesses come forward.
    Yes, sir. Go ahead.
    Mr. Woodrum. Ranking Member Manchin, Senator Capito, 
distinguished guests.
    Senator Manchin. Hold on, is the mic on?
    Mr. Woodrum. How about now?
    Senator Capito. No.
    Senator Manchin. Who is in charge of the mic?
    Mr. Woodrum. Alright, I have to get a little shorter. How's 
that?
    Senator Manchin. Go ahead. When you all come up, please 
state your name for the record again when you start, before you 
start.
    Mr. Woodrum. Jack, J-a-c-k Woodrum, W-o-o-d-r-u-m.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Woodrum. Ranking Member Manchin, Senator Capito, 
distinguished guests, thank you for bringing this home to West 
Virginia. We appreciate you having this hearing here.
    I'm President of the Summers County Commission. Summers 
County sits at the southern gateway to the New River Gorge 
National River. We have provided a resolution in support of 
this task you're undertaking here. We think, as far as the 
economy, will gather this to be a great improvement and a great 
help to us in advancing tourism here within the region.
    Also a member of the New River Gorge Regional Development 
Authority and we----
    Senator Manchin. You need to speak up. You have to speak 
loud, sir.
    Mr. Woodrum. ----and we also support your efforts and we 
appreciate your working on this.
    As an elected official, I would say I'm one of the few 
elected officials that's spent a great deal of time within the 
New River Gorge, the Bluestone National Wild and Scenic River 
and the Gauley national areas, decades of my life. The people I 
grew up with helped mentor me and craft the legislation--to 
make the legislation for the New River Gorge Regional--or for 
the New River Gorge National Recreation Area. The enabling 
legislation, I would encourage you to do everything you can to 
maintain that enabling legislation which also includes trapping 
which, I understand, is becoming an issue, but I grew up 
running a trap line, hunting, fishing, canoeing, there's very 
little of this land that I haven't touched in my lifetime.
    It don't look like it now, but at one time I was out and 
about. So--but we would appreciate everything you can do to 
move this project forward but also within the park with this 
additional visitorship, it's going to eat up a lot of resources 
so I would also encourage you to do everything you can to be 
respectful of their budget, to increase their budget to allow 
them to handle this increased visitorship which is going to be 
very important to us.
    Summers County, we look at counties outside of the 
immediate area of the Gorge that have provided resolutions in 
support including at least one county in Virginia, upstream of 
Hinton. So, we--this one is going to mean a great deal to a lot 
of us. Also, the New River Parkway needs completing and that 
would be a big part of it.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Woodrum. We have an $11 million investment, and this 
would help us with that too.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Woodrum. Thank you very much.
    Senator Manchin. We appreciate your testimony.
    Sir, you want to talk with your mouth almost right on it, 
if you can.
    Mr. Campbell. I'm your sound guy.
    [Laughter.]
    So my name's Jim Campbell. I own Chimney Corner and a 
historic house up in Ansted, the Page Vawter House that we 
restored and has a lot of great history with the railroads and 
so forth. I've also also been involved in tourism and trying to 
bring other events here. I'm originally from Los Angeles. I'm a 
transplant. Really, I recognized 13 years ago the opportunities 
here, especially for motorcycle riders on the 60 and showing 
our place.
    So I, you know, revived Chimney Corner. We have a cafe and 
a country store down there. We brought, worked with the Boy 
Scouts to bring the Spartan Race sandwiches, been a huge boon 
in exposure to our area, Bridge Jam, working on a motorcycle 
rally right now for Memorial Day weekend. So there's a lot of 
opportunities here that we're, we've been missing. I think that 
this is a huge opportunity for us, for tourism and tourism is 
our jobs of the future.
    There's just so much that we can really offer as an area 
and with the beauty that we have here. I know you've all been 
parts of it and stuff so, I appreciate your continued support 
in what we're doing on a little scale over here, the small 
business owners and that. I think this will bring everybody's 
value of our area, our properties, our businesses up, up to 
another level where we're able to compete with some of these 
other areas.
    So that's all I have to say. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much. We appreciate 
your testimony.
    Next?
    Mr. McCurdy. And for the short guy.
    Senator Manchin. Get up close to it, so I know they will be 
able to hear you.
    Mr. McCurdy. Senator Capito, Senator Manchin, thank you for 
the opportunity to speak here today. My name is Cully McCurdy, 
and I'm the District Wildlife Biologist for the National Wild 
Turkey Federation (NWTF) for West Virginia and Virginia and I 
reside in Pocahontas County, West Virginia. The NWTF is a 
national, non-profit organization dedicated to the conservation 
of the wild turkey and the preservation of our hunting heritage 
with 180,000 adult members nationwide and over 3,500 adult 
members in West Virginia.
    The NWTF in West Virginia has spent nearly $1.6 million 
since 1985 on habitat projects, outreach, land purchases and 
increasing sportsmen access to public lands. Since 1985, NWTF 
volunteers and partners raised and spent more than $488 million 
toward our mission of conserving wildlife habitat, preserving 
our hunting heritage across the U.S.
    In 2012 the NWTF embarked on the 10-year national ``Save 
the Habitat, Save the Hunt'' initiative. One of the goals was 
to open access, working with our federal and state partners, to 
500,000 acres for hunters nationwide. Seven years into the 
initiative we have surpassed our half-million-acre goal by 
125,000 acres. This was an important goal related to the 
nationwide R3 effort by state wildlife agencies and 
conservation groups. R3 stands for Recruitment, Retention and 
Reactivation of hunters. It is a movement to address the 
declining number of hunters in our country by recruiting new 
hunters, retaining those that currently hunt and reactivating 
former hunters that have lapsed for various reasons.
    Hunters pay for conservation through license sales and 
excise tax through the purchase of firearms, ammunition, 
archery equipment and accessories. Funds collected are 
allocated to state game agencies by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 
Service under the guidelines of the Pittman-Robertson Act. 
Statistics show that one of the primary reason hunters leave 
the sport is due to the lack of areas to hunt and loss of 
access. If the redesignation occurs under the current, 
preferred alternative related to Senate bill 2555, 4,385 acres 
of public land access will be lost to hunters. This is 
unacceptable, and it's not supported by the users that have 
enjoyed this land in many cases for generations.
    Thank you for the opportunity to----
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you very much, sir, we appreciate 
it.
    [Applause.]
    Terri, do you want to call maybe three more as they come 
down?
    Ms. Berkley. The next set of speakers is Ms. Brenda 
Howells, Mr. Joe Brouse, Ms. Lisa Strader and Mr. Ed McMinn.
    Senator Manchin. If you all would move down as you can to 
the sides here, and then we will call you in accordingly.
    Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Coleman. I'm Glenn Coleman. Senator Joe and Senator 
Capito, I want to thank you for, I think we met.
    Senator Manchin. Yes, we have, thank you.
    Mr. Coleman. But I am pretty much in agreement with Mr. 
Harman. He's addressed everything that I wanted to address here 
today to let you know about what the hunters are going to lose 
here if, and I don't hunt some of these areas but I do hunt 
other areas that in the stipulation that these areas, a lot of 
these areas may be rock cliff and may be inaccessible to hunt, 
but a lot of them are accessible to hunt and also there are a 
lot of deer, turkey and bear harvested off of these areas.
    And so, and the assumption that we're heartless, we just 
want our rights, that we don't care about the other things, is 
totally wrong and so, that's also been brought up here today. 
And I don't agree with that and none of the guys that hunt and 
stuff in here do agree. We have lost a lot of areas to hunt and 
in areas that we used to hunt constantly and we don't have that 
area anymore because of areas that have been taken over by say, 
one primary area that I hunt that affects me is the Boy Scout 
area and those areas they have ever since they have came in and 
I know it was private land that they purchased and I don't 
begrudge them that, but they have tried to deny us access to 
the Park Service land ever since they've been back there.
    And so, it's a situation----
    Senator Manchin. That has been brought to our attention 
today, and we are going to work on that.
    Mr. Coleman. Okay.
    Senator Manchin. I am glad you all brought it to our 
attention.
    Mr. Coleman. It is something that needs to be taken care 
of.
    The other thing, the last thing, my red light's on so I 
want to thank you and Senator Capito for your work on our 
healthcare and our teachers. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. You are welcome. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Who is next, Terri?
    Ms. Berkley. There's two right there, sir.
    Senator Manchin. Call their name, please.
    Ms. Howells. Hi, my name is Brenda Howells.
    Senator Manchin. Brenda, if you will, just pull it right 
close to you, yes, pull it down, pull it down just a little 
bit. There you go.
    Ms. Howells. Got it.
    Hi, my name is Brenda Howells. I work at ACE Adventure 
Resort in Oak Hill. We have been watching our rafting numbers 
decline over the past ten years. We are constantly looking for 
new ideas to bring people to the area. In the past five years 
we have opened our private waterpark to the public. We have 
started Mountain Music Fest which we hold annually, and this 
will be our seventh year in June of holding this festival. We 
are at the present time installing an aerial park to attract 
more visitors.
    I feel designating the New River Gorge as a National Park 
and Preserve is a great economic move for Southern West 
Virginia. From tourism to retail, restaurants and hotels, our 
area desperately needs jobs to keep our young people from 
leaving the state. It would also be an opportunity to attract 
new businesses to the area and bring more jobs.
    Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
    [Applause.]
    Next? Okay.
    Mr. McMinn. Hello, my name is Ed McMinn. It's M-c-M-i-n-n. 
I'm here representing the West Virginia Bowhunters Association. 
I appreciate the opportunity to speak, Senator Capito and 
Senator Manchin.
    We are also one of the affiliated clubs of the West 
Virginia Wildlife League. We also represent 15 affiliated 
archery clubs within our state and over 3,000 members of the 
Bowhunters Association, many of which live in Fayette, 
Nicholas, Clay, Raleigh and surrounding counties of these 
areas. We believe the intentions of this bill are good and 
meant to benefit West Virginia, but we are opposed to the loss 
of over 4,000 acres of public hunting land.
    Honestly, it feels a little bit like David versus Goliath 
here, standing before two powerful Senators, but that power is 
given to you by your constituents, John Q. Public. The numbers 
that Ms. Watts gave on statistics, those are harvest numbers. 
That does not indicate activity. I spent over 100 hours in a 
tree stand this year. I harvested one deer. So, many trips up 
and down the interstate, up and down 79, not to this area 
specifically, but areas in Clay County. And so, there can be a 
lot of additional activity from sportsmen that aren't recorded 
in those harvest numbers.
    So, you know, as a sportsman, we're not in favor of giving 
land to, no offense, to the National Park Service. We would 
like this land to be managed by locals. We're also facing a 
senator on the state side that wants to open up wildlife 
management in state forests to offer it to vehicles and ATV 
use. So I know it's not the place for questions, but it's kind 
of like, when will this stop?
    We want to protect our land. We want to use it. So, I know 
I'm starting to run short on time. I would implore you to not 
let this be your legacy to give away West Virginia land. Let's 
keep it. Let's market it for ourselves and for others outside 
to come, but let's work on those boundaries to make them 
smaller so we have less loss.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Berkley. The next speaker is Mr. Joe Brouse.
    Senator Manchin. I do understand harvesting. They don't 
call it hunting for nothing and they don't call fishing 
``catching'' and so, we understand very much the time put in.
    Yes, sir.
    Mr. Brouse. Joe Brouse, J-o-e B-r-o-u----
    Senator Manchin. Put that, Joe, put that just a little bit, 
twist it up.
    Mr. Brouse. B-r-o-u-s-e.
    Senator Manchin. There you go.
    Mr. Brouse. Okay. I just wanted to say, working on the 
economic development side----
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Brouse. ----one of the most, one of our most available 
opportunities is keeping the businesses that we have and 
allowing them to expand with capital investment. Folks like Mr. 
Johnson and many of the folks in the outdoor economy footprint 
want to employ more people. In many ways, they're 
underemploying and with these visitors coming to the area and 
the economic impact that that will allow, that will happen.
    But the other thing is that so many of their customers are 
folks that respect the flora, the fauna and they're coming here 
for the right reasons to respect, to respect the recreation and 
the outdoors. So, Senators, I want to commend you, both of you, 
for trying to strike the right balance between our heritage and 
between our economic future. It's not the panacea for what ails 
us in a post-, post-,--in the transition economy, but it is a 
big step forward. So thank you very much.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    As our next witness comes forward, do you want to call the 
next group?
    Ms. Berkley. Our next set of speakers will be Mr. Thomas 
Campbell, Ms. Heather Johnson, Mr. Roger Wilson, Mr. Larry 
Berry.
    Senator Manchin. If you all would just work your way down 
to the front, and we will continue. Thank you so much for being 
here.
    Ms. Strader. Okay, how close do I need to be? Can you hear 
me?
    Senator Manchin. Yes, loud and clear.
    Ms. Strader. Okay. My name is Lisa Strader, S-t-r-a-d-e-r. 
I'm the Director at Visit Southern West Virginia. We're a nine-
county tourism bureau here and four of our counties are 
fortunate to have the New River Gorge National River run 
through their boundaries, but I will say that the National 
Parks entities that we have in our area affect all of our nine 
counties.
    As Commissioner Ruby mentioned, you know, tourism is 
growing in our area and it's also in our state but it's also 
growing in our region--$712 million in direct visitor spending 
in 2018, and we support in tourism almost 7,600 jobs. This can, 
with the--obviously we support this resolution. We did, our 
organization also sent our support in as well. We feel like 
this would also, long-term, increase our visitorship, our jobs 
and this is an area that we feel like we have a lot of growth 
in, especially in Southern West Virginia. Thank you for your 
time.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, thank you so much.
    Alright, next witness?
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Campbell. Hello.
    Senator Capito. Hi.
    Mr. Campbell. My name's Thomas Campbell, C-a-m-p-b-e-l-l.
    I've lived in the area for over 7 years and first came to 
the area over 20 years ago. Presently, I am a small business 
owner and a part-time raft guide. I have enjoyed the whitewater 
and outdoor recreation of this state for over three decades and 
worked commercially as a raft guide, fishing guide, mountain 
biking guide, outdoor recreation leader for almost 20 years in 
six states and three countries. I have seen how lands and 
waterways are managed in different areas, and I am opposed to 
the New River Gorge becoming a national park.
    The New River Gorge is a beautiful area and well managed by 
the National Park Service and the multiple outdoor enthusiasts, 
whether they be private or commercial users. Why I am opposed--
the possibility of user fees and/or permits, even if the 
permits were to be free. People like myself are not looking for 
access restricted for what isn't currently allowed for things 
like campfires, hunting, fishing, hiking, boating and pets.
    While increased tourism would almost certainly benefit my 
business, I, along with others, am concerned with what the 
possible numbers might bring, though I am not opposed to 
increased tourism, again, things like user fees and increased 
restrictions. For instance, certain trails are quite crowded at 
times and I know that parking lots have had to tow vehicles 
with overflow. Currently, the National Park Service manages the 
Gorge and does a great job. They are competent and helpful. 
Likewise, private and commercial boaters, other sportsmen do a 
fine job of policing themselves and keeping the Gorge 
beautiful.
    We have done this for decades and trust you will allow us 
to continue to do so.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Campbell. Thank you all very much.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. We want to thank everybody also for being 
attentive to the time and if they go over a few seconds we are 
basically watching from the people that came before, the woman 
that spoke in favor and him speaking in opposition, we gave a 
little bit of her time to him to make it work out, a balanced 
approach.
    Ms. Johnson. I'm Heather Johnson, owner of River 
Expeditions. I support the new designation as a park and 
preserve as do most local businesses and tourism-related 
entities. This is a logical next step in raising the profile of 
the New River Gorge in West Virginia as a destination. Quite 
simply, it's a no brainer.
    It's disheartening that some opponents of the new 
designation have been propagating fear and misinformation. For 
far too long our area has lagged behind as a result of the ``we 
don't want that here'' mentality. I only hope these few 
dissenters will not disrupt the entire process for those of us 
who stand ready to embrace more visitors to the park and our 
area. And while we contemplate this issue today on the local 
level, the ramifications of our actions will affect our entire 
country for years to come.
    I do not take this issue lightly. For me and 150 of my 
employees, this is our livelihood, not merely a hobby. I'm 
encouraged by the bipartisan support of our Senators and hope 
this new designation comes to pass. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
    [Applause.]
    As our next witness comes up, Terri, do you want to call 
the next four that you want to come forward?
    Ms. Berkley. Mr. Luke Gilliam, Mr. Matt Wender, Ms. Becky 
Sullivan and Mr. Bill Lehrter.
    Senator Manchin. If you all would work your way down to the 
front, we would appreciate it.
    Thank you, sir, very much for being here.
    Mr. Wilson. The name's Roger Wilson.
    Senator Manchin. Roger Wilson.
    Mr. Wilson. I'm a small business owner in Fayette County, 
also a lifetime----
    Senator Manchin. You can pull that up, the whole thing, 
there you go.
    Mr. Wilson. Also, a lifetime resident of West Virginia, 
lifelong hunter, fisherman, hiker and mushroom hunter and all 
the good stuff. I support this change. I'm sure there are going 
to be some changes to the land, as we talk, but I do support 
it. The hardest thing that I've ever hunted in West Virginia is 
keeping a good job for a long time. I support anything that we 
can help our communities, the little towns of Sandstone or 
Meadow Creek, the places a lot of people don't think about. If 
we can do this, then we can bring opportunities for people to 
create other small businesses. I can't argue against that.
    Thank you so much.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Berry. My name is Larry Berry, and I thank you for 
being allowed to be here today. This is my first meeting, and I 
wish I had attended others.
    Senator Manchin. Larry, get just a little bit closer if you 
will.
    Mr. Berry. Okay.
    Senator Manchin. There you go.
    Mr. Berry. Can you hear me now?
    Senator Manchin. That is better.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Berry. I thank you for being here. I'm a wildlife 
biologist, and I'm old. I originally made comments on the New 
River Gorge National River and one of our main concerns was the 
continuation of hunters for the sportsmen of West Virginia and 
it was a great concern at that time and it still is a great 
concern. This is almost 40 years in the change. And actually, 
I've dreaded this day for fear of that, and I'm sure our 
Representatives are going to help protect that portion of our 
heritage that we enjoy.
    I'm not aware of any conflicts between hunters and tourists 
on the Gorge area. Somebody else may have information there, 
but I'm not aware of any. I would be against any restriction of 
hunting. Hunting is a wildlife management tool and that tool 
should be used. It's the cheapest tool you'll ever find and 
hunters do that work. You don't have to do anything.
    I don't say anything about the park, I just say about 
hunting and its use and that's my main concern. I know in 
Alaska, Alaskans, Native Alaskans can hunt parks and I consider 
myself a Native West Virginian, even though I'm not the right 
color and don't fit the definition, my great-great-great-
grandfather lived in Greenbrier County and helped settle those 
areas there. And I just wish that would continue. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Sir, before you get started. We have four or five seats 
empty if there are any ladies in the back that would like to 
come forward or anybody that is having a hard time standing. If 
you can raise your hand if you have a seat beside you. A few 
seats have opened up. I see two, three there. I have three here 
and you have one. Okay, we have seven seats in here. So if you 
want to come forward.
    Also, if I can ask you all, as we wrap up the ones who have 
already pre-signed up, if there is anyone in the audience that 
would like to speak that hasn't, raise your hand and we will 
have someone come around, get your name and then put you on the 
list, if you don't mind, if you want to do that. I want to make 
sure we can accommodate everybody possible.
    Yes, Ali, if you all, when they raise their hand, go around 
and take a list, and we will get them to sign. Okay?
    So, with that being said, anymore? We have more seats, 
three more seats back here. They will pass them up. You keep 
your hands up and they will come to you. Well, you don't have 
to keep them up that long, but keep them up. They will come 
find you.
    Sir, I am sorry, you go ahead, please.
    Mr. Gilliam. My name is Luke Gilliam, G-i-l-l-i-a-m.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Luke.
    Mr. Gilliam. I'm a resident of Fayette County. I live 
outside of Fayetteville, am an avid hunter and fisherman, and 
my concern is the portion of this property that's going to be 
no hunting allowed. As the biologist said, that is what helps 
control our game population and stuff. If you have, like we 
have a lot of issues now with coyotes and if people aren't 
allowed to hunt and trap and even in that areas----
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Mr. Gilliam. ----they're going to get that much more 
populated. Coons, racoons, and stuff, then you start getting 
more rabies, effects of that and when it starts coming into 
people's homes then they want somebody to do something about 
it. Well, they've stopped all the hunting and that's the best 
management for these animals and stuff. And my concern with 
down there, they say the property is steeper than a cow's face, 
well, why would you stop them hunting if you can't use it for 
anything else because it's too steep? What are they going to 
use it for?
    [Applause.]
    If it's unusable and unaccessible, why stop people from 
hunting? If it can't be used for anything else because, 
apparently, it's too steep. I mean, I hunt and fish down there. 
I have a cabin on Hawks Nest above the dam, and I was wondering 
if that is going to be taken away from me.
    Senator Manchin. I don't think. I mean, the things you are 
stating right now, we will get answers for you as your 
statement is being made.
    Mr. Gilliam. Okay, you know, because there's several cabins 
on that river down there that people access by boat and camp 
and stay in and stuff.
    Senator Manchin. Let me just, I don't want to take away 
from your time here, but let me just say this. Any of you all 
when you are making your statement, if there is a question that 
you are asking for clarification, you make that as your 
statement and we will make sure that is in the record and get 
back to you with an answer on that.
    Go ahead. I am sorry.
    Mr. Gilliam. Okay.
    Senator Manchin. Twenty seconds left.
    Mr. Gilliam. Okay. I just think if they--I don't know why 
that has to be----
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Gilliam. ----that portion has to be taken away from 
hunting. It can still be upgraded, but why it has to be taken 
away from the hunters when it's, as they say, it's too steep to 
do anything with anyway.
    Senator Manchin. Right.
    Mr. Gilliam. So if nobody can access it, let the hunters 
hunt. That's what I say. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. We will find out. Thank you, sir, very 
much.
    [Applause.]
    Just pull the whole thing. It will come down. Just push 
down hard. There you go.
    Ms. Sullivan. Can you hear me?
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Senator Capito. Yes.
    Ms. Sullivan. Hi, I'm Becky Sullivan, B-e-c-k-y S-u----
    Senator Manchin. Get closer, Becky.
    Ms. Sullivan. ----l-l-i-v-a-n.
    I am, I grew up in Fayetteville. I live in Oak Hill now. 
I'm currently the Director of the New River Gorge CVB and the 
President of the Fayette County Chamber of Commerce. As a 
representative of these two organizations, we do support the 
designation of the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. 
The reason being, Chelsea Ruby stated, the momentum is growing. 
Let's keep that momentum going. The numbers have proven the 
tourism boost and the economic development, and that's why we 
stand behind it.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Sir, before you start--do you want to call, do you have 
another four you want to call, Terri, so they can work their 
way down?
    Ali, did you get--there are some gentlemen back in the back 
that had their hands raised on this side. Did you get them?
    Ali [from Senator Manchin's staff]. I did. I got four. If 
there is anybody additional----
    Senator Manchin. Anybody else that wants to talk after we 
get done with the--just raise your hand and we will get to you.
    Okay, Terri, the next four?
    Ms. Berkley. Yes, our next speakers are Jenna Grayson, 
Jeffrey Proctor, Thomas Gerencer and Logan Bockrath.
    Senator Manchin. Okay, please work your way to the sides, 
and you continue, sir. I am sorry, start.
    Mr. Lehrter. Okay, so my name is Bill Lehrter, L-e-h-r-t-e-
r. I'm a raft guide, a fishing guide, a hunting guide and a 
member of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. With the National 
Park Service facing severe budget shortfalls, it seems 
extremely likely that the designation change will bring user 
fees to the local outdoor community. The NPS faces a $12 
billion maintenance backlog, and the most recent budget 
included a $580 million cut to their funding.
    In response to these funding problems, the NPS recently 
raised entrance fees by $5 to $10 in many of its most popular 
parks. White Sands, the subject of a recent economic study used 
to support this change, raised its entry fee by $25 after 
becoming a national park. Kayaking in the Everglades is $35 a 
day. Many of us in this room pay $25 a year to enter the Grand 
Canyon lottery. Now it's been stated that no fees would occur, 
but I think that the increased attendance that we expect would 
change that and that the NPS would see private boating as a 
revenue source.
    So, in all, 117 National Park Service sites charge entry 
fees and I've been to a lot of those and happily paid them, but 
I believe that this place is different. Now, I moved here and 
bought a home in Fayette County because of its incredibly 
unique public land opportunities and the vibrant outdoor 
community that has grown here. Ours is a culture of after work 
climbing and biking trips and a culture of people who guide a 
commercial rafting trip and then go back out for another run 
afterwards with their friends. Our household eats wild game 
that I harvest within this national park.
    Now we don't make a lot of money as guides, but we're rich 
in resources and recreational opportunities and we need to ask 
ourselves if we're willing to trade Fayetteville for Gatlinburg 
or if the local companies changing marketing materials for 
national river to national park is worth forever changing this 
place we love. The National Park Service was created to protect 
unique landscapes, not as an economic development tool.
    Thanks.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you very much. Well said.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Wender. Senator Capito, Senator Manchin.
    Senator Manchin. Matt, good seeing you.
    Mr. Wender. Thanks for joining us.
    My name is Matt Wender, W-e-n-d-e-r. Formerly, I was a 
County Commissioner in Fayette County for 18 years. In Fayette 
County we're certainly grateful for the good tourism industry 
that we have. But make no doubt about it, coal is the backbone 
of Southern West Virginia, certainly the backbone of Fayette 
County as well. 2012 was the best year that we had for coal 
production in Fayette County. From 2012 to 2015, the industry 
declined. Since 2015, it's been in a virtual free fall, perhaps 
today we're doing a third as much coal business as we used to.
    All of which begs the fact that we must continue to try to 
diversify our economic base, but at the same time let's not 
ignore the one part of our economy that is doing very well, the 
tourism industry. Let's do all we can to further enhance that 
and give that industry the best potential it has for future 
growth which is so critical to Fayette County and all of 
Southern West Virginia.
    I certainly urge you to make the New River Gorge a National 
Park and Preserve.
    Thank you very much.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Matt.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Grayson. Hello. Hi, my name is----
    Senator Manchin. Pull it down a little bit. There you go.
    Ms. Grayson. My name is Jenna Grayson. I am a transplant to 
West Virginia. I'm also a member of the Generation New River 
Gorge Board, and as a Board Member I personally will state that 
I am in favor of the park. Like this gentleman said before me, 
tourism is so huge for this area and we believe that it would 
increase jobs and increase people's opportunities in this area.
    When I moved to West Virginia I moved to the area because 
of the river but recently found out how very difficult it is to 
find a job here. I took a service-based position with WVU but 
that was pretty much all I could find. I think this would be a 
fabulous opportunity to give this area a boost in the economy 
and also bring young people into the area to stay, like myself.
    So, thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much, thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Do we have--hold on--Terri, do we have more you want to 
call forward?
    Ms. Berkley. Mr. Larry Case, Kevin Terrell, Dave Arnold and 
Chris Gill.
    Senator Manchin. If everybody will work their way to the 
sides at the front.
    Please start.
    Mr. Proctor. My name is Jeff Proctor. P-r-o-c-t-o-r. 
Senator Manchin and Senator Capito, thank you, and 
Superintendent Watts, thank you.
    I would like to say that I totally support the suggested 
change that's on the table right now. I think it would help the 
economy and I think that the area, as everyone has already 
pointed out, is struggling and we really, really need the jobs 
that are in the area. I also would like to give my support to 
what an amazing job the Park Service has done over these 40 
years, and I hope that we can continue to get them financial 
support to continue to go take this to the next step.
    This is, kind of, will shock Rick, but I would like to also 
say, everything in his speech, I totally agree with.
    [Laughter.]
    There's no need for me to pound the drum because I only 
have 20 seconds left, but thank you very much.
    Senator Manchin. Thanks, Jeff.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Gerencer. Hi, I'm Tom Gerencer. I'm a resident of 
Fayetteville. Despite the orange, I am not a hunter. I'm a 
journalist, so I'm about as far from a hunter as you can get. 
In fact, I was shot at on a trail a mile from Fayetteville, a 
guy took a sound shot at me from about 50 feet away through a 
rhododendron thicket.
    I would actually like to see hunting limited near our 
heavily used trails, but surprisingly I carpooled here today 
with two hunters who feel strongly the same way that I do. They 
don't feel that this is their land, and they think hunting 
should be limited near busy areas. We looked at the map 
together and it is great that you have worked so hard to allow 
hunting in most of the planned preserve. So hats off to you.
    But those hunters, and lots of hunters in this area, hunt 
on remote lands near the river where nobody hikes that would be 
banned from hunting under this plan. You said today that these 
areas are too remote to hunt, but that's untrue. This hunter I 
know spent six hours dragging a deer out of the woods there 
this year. He uses that land daily. In the most obese state in 
the country, I feel we should encourage that.
    I've heard there's lots of other places they can hunt. 
That's untrue. When you get out of work and you've got an hour 
of daylight, you hunt nearby or you don't hunt at all. This is 
everyone's land, including people like me who don't hunt, but 
it's the hunter's land too. You're talking about changing their 
way of life. Hunting is already declining from an article I 
wrote for the Boston Globe about Lyme disease. Hunting bans in 
Massachusetts have caused massive increases in overpopulation 
of deer and a 6,000 percent increase in Lyme disease in 30 
years.
    Nobody could argue that we don't need an economic boost. 
That's already happening with most user groups in the park 
increasing and tourism increasing. A national park would help 
but for our health, our neighbors and our self-respect and as 
much as I am not a hunter, we owe it to ourselves to respect 
and preserve the tradition of hunting in these areas as much as 
possible. It's recreation and a way to feed their families.
    Thank you for the work you're doing, and I know from 
listening to you all that you'll do the right thing.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Bockrath. I'm just going to take it down instead of 
trying to raise the mic.
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Mr. Bockrath. I want to use a couple minutes of my time to 
clarify some----
    Senator Manchin. Give your name.
    Mr. Bockrath. Oh, sorry. My name's Logan Bockrath. A couple 
minutes of time to clarify the panel here. First off, Lizzie 
Watts, Superintendent Watts, said the park boundary on the 
Lower Gorge area was at Nuttallburg. This will be the second 
time I've corrected her. It's off by two miles on the river 
left and one mile on the river right. So she's off there.
    Second, with the question on archery in the firearms buffer 
zones. That is not a federal law. What we got was a map from 
the National Park Service that was given to the Senator's 
office that showed thousands of acres of private land closed to 
hunting as well as anywhere within the buffer zone, closed to 
hunting which is not according to state law and DNR which 
states you can bow hunt there.
    Second and most surprisingly, I seem to be the only person 
here who has compared the numbers of the New River Gorge 
visitor numbers in the park versus the commercial river users. 
There's no correlation that will save rafting by increasing the 
park visitors. In fact, between 1990 and the 2010s, park 
visitation increased by 12 percent, yet, the rafting industry 
was down by 52 percent.
    If we're using this to save the rafting industry in the 
process throwing hunters under the table, it's not worth it and 
not guaranteed.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    All the things that you stated, were correcting, we will 
double check and basically get back to you to confirm or if we 
have adjustments to be made. Okay?
    Mr. Bockrath. It's correct.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    Mr. Bockrath. Thank you.
    [Laughter.]
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Who do we have next? Okay.
    Mr. Terrell. Hi, my name is Kevin Terrell. That's T-e-r-r-
e-l-l. I'm a resident of Fayetteville, as I have been for about 
the last 11 years, but have worked in the outdoor industry for 
about 20 years both in this country and in others.
    While I do agree that the change of the name of the park 
would help, I worked in Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation 
Area when they changed the name to national park. That boosted 
visitorship and that's a great thing, bringing more people to 
this area. I do also agree that we need to more carefully 
consider the usage of the land, like Tom Gerencer was saying, 
some of this land isn't used for anything except for some guys 
that take rafts down the river, park up on the side, do some 
hunting and then bring those deer down to the rafts. But I do 
agree that hunting should be restricted in some of the high-use 
areas like right around the Long Point Trail and some other 
areas near my home.
    So I hope you consider everyone's input, and I know you'll 
make a good decision for us. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Case. Hear me?
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Mr. Case. My name is Larry Case. I'm pretty nervous. I 
don't want to say something really fast. It's Case, C-a-s-e, 
like the knife, okay?
    This is hard to do. There's a bunch of people in this 
audience and in this little community. Fayetteville is a small 
community, and I got a lot of friends here that are on the 
opposite end of this spectrum, okay? And Rick's one of them and 
he's my friend and Dave Arnold and Jeff and everybody behind 
me, they're not going to have the same opinion as me. I'm 
telling you, it's a hard thing to do.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Case. But as a hunter I feel like this has to be said, 
okay? Rick, you're almost ashamed of hunters for wanting this 
area, okay? I want to make the point, I would be ashamed as a 
hunter if we did not come out and speak out about this, okay?
    [Applause.]
    We cannot, and I know you think it's terrible if you're for 
this bill, stand and say it's okay if you want to take 4,385 
acres from us which, truthfully, most, some of us think that 
it's more than that, okay? You seem to might want to make the 
point about harvest records. I retired as a DNR law enforcement 
captain. I was in the DNR 36 years. I know a little bit about 
it, okay? The numbers you want to quote about harvested game 
are just the ones that were checked in. Believe it or not, 
sometimes things don't get checked in. I know it's hard to 
believe, okay?
    Secondly, I don't know about you all----
    [Applause.]
    I don't kill something every time I go. I don't. So you 
can't base it on two bear, nine turkeys and you know, whatever, 
okay? Sportsmen, hunters, in this area, we were promised this 
would stay open to hunting in 1978, as you all well know, when 
this area was formed, okay? That was a major sticking point 
when the first park, the National River was formed, okay? And 
we'd like to see it stay that way and thank you for the chance 
to speak.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Dave hold up one second, Dave, if you 
would.
    Do we have other people you want to call forward?
    Ms. Berkley. Mr. Kenny Parker, Mr. Rob Rappold, Mr. Roy 
Smith and Mr. Michael Chennault.
    Senator Manchin. If you all want to work your way down to 
the sides of the front, and then we will have Dave and then we 
will just come in order, okay?
    Dave, are you ready?
    Mr. Arnold. Barry, are you in this room? That changes what 
I'm going to say.
    My name is Dave Arnold, D-a-v-e A-r-n-o-l-d. The reason I 
was asking for Barry was I thought he was going to make this 
comment but--in this role, I'm talking as a Board Member of the 
West Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association. The West 
Virginia Hospitality and Travel Association is a statewide 
organization on travel. I was President of the Tourism Business 
Sector of that for a long time. I was Chairman for 12 years, 
and I'm now a board member.
    I'll read you, real quick, this has been submitted as 
testimony, but I'll read you the first paragraph.
    The first sentence says, ``West Virginia Hospitality is in 
favor of the bill to designate the New River Gorge in West 
Virginia as the New River Gorge National Park and Preserve. 
Tourism is growing in West Virginia and this will be another 
tool in the tool box to help us continue growing. Tourism can 
help diversify our economy and transfer this region in the near 
future. We need to take advantage of the momentum of the 
tourism industry in seeing this.''
    With that said, I'll take my hat off and put my own 
personal comments in. First off, tourism is not the answer. 
Tourism is just a piece of the pie. You know, it's part of what 
we need to do to diversify this economy. There are layers upon 
layers upon layers. Hunting is one of the layers. I'm a crazed 
hunter. I hunt 60, 70 days a year. Coal is part of it. There's 
many, many things that are part of this.
    The second thing I want to say is that I have had a great 
relationship with the National Park Service staff. There's been 
some bashing of staff, and I think they're phenomenal. There's 
no one I would rather see come around the corner if we have 
pinned boats, or something worse, than the National Park 
Rangers.
    I also want to say that many of us are suffering the exact 
same thing. Hunting is in a huge decline. Anybody that's out 
there on opening day knows that ten years ago you heard twice 
as many shots as you do in rifle season as you do today. We 
need to help hunting. We need to help rafting. Rafting is in 
decline. And quite frankly, the population of West Virginia is 
in decline.
    So, I see my red light. I'll just leave it with this. There 
is no such thing as standing still. You're either falling 
backwards or you're moving forward, and hopefully we move 
forward and hopefully we compromise and work this out. Thank 
you.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    Mr. Parker. Hi, my name is Kenny Parker, P-a-r-k-e-r. I'm 
one of the owners of Water Stone Outdoors in Fayetteville and 
I'm also the Vice President of the New River Alliance of 
Climbers, our local climber, non-profit group.
    These are my concerns. First of all, I think this bill 
should include language and funding for infrastructure for 
clean water to help make this, if you're going to call it a 
national park, make it more like a national park that we would 
have been accustomed to with, you know, clean rivers and 
streams.
    Number two, having been involved with the development of 
climbing in the area from the beginning, I see the issues we 
already have with access and parking and I would like to see 
language and funding in the bill which would help facilitate 
acquisition and improve access and parking to the existing 
areas which already see lots of use.
    And third, I think any language in this bill which creates 
the perception of winners and losers amongst the existing user 
groups, who all have gotten along fine for years, and as a 
hunter myself, I don't want to see increase in the divisiveness 
amongst the local community as far as these user groups. I 
don't want there to be the perception that, you know, the 
whitewater or the climbers got benefits while the hunters lost 
because we all get along fine and I think it's important that 
we work toward a cohesive relationship between the various user 
groups.
    Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    Mr. Rappold. Good morning. I'm Rob Rappold, Mayor of 
Beckley and current Chairman of the New River Gorge Regional 
Development Authority. I'd like to begin by thanking our 
Senators for their attention, not only to this very important 
issue and project but for everything you do for Southern West 
Virginia and Beckley, particularly. So thank you very much.
    I'm only here to say that the Beckley Common Council, our 
seven-member council, voted unanimously to, on the resolution 
in support of this designation. We do that primarily because 
we're on the New River highland. We're six miles if you drive 
down Batoff Mountain from New River. So we're very close by and 
the historical data that has been provided that indicates that 
this designation gives such a nice boost to visitors and 
tourism.
    So with that, you have the full support of myself and the 
Common Council, the City of Beckley and the New River Gorge 
Regional Development Authority. Thank you for your efforts.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Mayor.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Sir, one second, if you will.
    Do you want to go ahead, Terri? Four more?
    Ms. Berkley. Mr. Joe Aucremanne, Mr. Michael Chennault, Mr. 
Chris Gill.
    Mr. Gill. I'm Chris Gill. I've decided not to speak. A lot 
of the things that I was going to address----
    Senator Manchin. No problem. Then you need two more names.
    Ms. Berkley. Mr. John Skaggs, Mr. Roy Blankenship.
    Senator Manchin. If you all wish to speak just work your 
way down to the front, the side of the front.
    Yes, sir, go ahead, I am sorry.
    Mr. Smith. Ah, yes. Hello, my name is Roy Smith.
    Senator Manchin. Closer, Roy.
    Mr. Smith. My name is Roy Smith. I worked for the Park 
Service seasonal for six years back in like 2006 to 2010, and I 
love our area. I love the National River the way it is and it 
seems like hunting brings about 350,000 people to the area and 
it brings $270 million to the state economy. And it seems like 
what these seasonal jobs and such, even for the rafting and 
stuff, it just seems like, you know, it's good for the area and 
stuff but it's just, kind of, seasonal, you know, the rafting 
industry is seasonal.
    It just seems like we need the protection for hunters and 
stuff in the area because it's all year long and stuff for 
hunting. And it just seems like I'm, kind of, worried about 
personal property taxes for the area and stuff if it becomes a 
national park and stuff, just the taxes and stuff, I think 
they'll, kind of, go up steeper and suffer the area and stuff 
and I'm kind of worried about personal property taxes.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Smith. And I'm worried about, even like fracking and 
natural gas and stuff in the national park and stuff. Those are 
kind of things I'm kind of concerned about, you know, around 
the river and stuff.
    Senator Manchin. That is not allowed.
    Mr. Smith. You know, I just afraid, natural gas and stuff 
is going to, kind of, you know, the money and everything and 
stuff, you know, West Virginia wants money from natural gas and 
fracking and I'm just concerned about those issues in the 
national park. Thank you so much.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Chennault. Hello.
    Senator Capito. Hi.
    Mr. Chennault. My name's Michael Chennault, in French, la 
Francais, it's called ``Shen-oh''. I come to speak for the 
little guys that can't speak for theirself, but also for the 
hunters back here. If you can see, I do hunt. I eat what I 
hunt. I skin it. I do tanning hides and everything like that I 
take care of it.
    But my main concern is today is along the railroad tracks, 
the highways and the power lines, the power lines--used to go 
kill some nice bucks on the power lines because there's a lot 
of feed in the honeysuckle and the people at the Forestry 
Service ought of paid attention to this along the New River 
Gorge. They come and spray poison in 20-foot streams on both 
sides of the tracks. In the road they probably spray poison 
everywhere on the roads and both sides of the tracks and the 
power lines, they spray like crazy. And this gets into our 
water too, also, our drinking water.
    But it kills all the vegetation and the bees are out there, 
in there and they're eating honey and stuff and I think, in 
fact, it wipes out the bees. There used to be bees in Chimney 
Corner in the rock cliff down there. Original honey in the 
rock, you might say. And I really am concerned with all I've 
seen the bee population decline. I know a lot of people don't 
like bees. They get stung by them. They think they're vicious 
little things sometimes, but they're very necessary for the 
circle of life.
    I also represent the Algonquin People and our Chief 
Stanley--of the Eastern Coast and they come back, slip back and 
they hunt in the Gorge in their ancestral hunting grounds, but 
you won't know it. But we like to hunt quietly. Even a lot of 
these hunters here, they don't see them coming. I walked up and 
had game would go about me. I'd be laying camouflage. I don't 
like to wear red sometimes. I know it's illegal, but that makes 
it more of a target sometimes. It's for the game warden to 
fine, I guess, but that's okay with me.
    But I hunt the way I like to hunt. I like stealth, but I 
also love what I hunt. I eat it til the last bone, the last 
gnarliest bone and I process its hide and I use every bit of 
the animal. I don't waste it. Now, I've heard a lot of 
sportsmen hunt for coon and stuff and what they do is they 
shoot 'em and leave 'em lay or throw 'em away. They discard the 
animal. They butcher deer and waste 'em like you wouldn't 
believe. But I don't like this park thing because--down yonder 
by the Gauley River I know every rock in that place, the ridges 
and everything in there, all the persimmon groves there and 
everything's being wiped out, different things in there.
    I don't know if the Forestry Service looks down in those 
places--that goes through to see what's in their territory. If 
you own it, look at it and look at everything in the territory, 
but my people were French trappers before this place became a 
United States and I want to see hunting preserved. I'm in 
mourning with a black hat for every foot of hunting ground 
lost. It should not be.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Chennault. Have a good day.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Just pull that down there. There you go.
    Mr. Aucremanne. My name is Joe Aucremanne. That's spelled, 
A-u-c-r-e-m-a-n-n-e. I have lived in Summers County for over 41 
years, since I got out of Morgantown, and I'm a member of the 
West Virginia Farm Bureau, farmer and for many years, an avid 
hunter. And it's not that I'm against hunting, it's just that 
now I'm happy to be in the woods. I've been up and down the 
river. If I tried to name all of the places in the Gorge that 
I've visited or spent time, I probably couldn't name all of 
'em.
    So I feel that just as much as anyone here, I have a right 
to voice my opinion and I think we'd all agree that West 
Virginia is one of the greatest places in this country and the 
Gorge is a very special place whether you're a hunter, a 
tourist, a guide or kayaker or a climber. So we're here today 
to discuss whether or not the Gorge designation as a national 
park is appropriate. It certainly would let the nation know 
that the Gorge is part of a very select number of localities in 
this country that deserves the designation of national park.
    Now if it wasn't for the restriction on hunting, I don't 
think that anyone here would oppose that. I can say as far as 
hunting goes that the least restrictive alternative for hunting 
and fishing is the best for all concerned. There, it seems to 
me that there are places that may be in the restricted area now 
that could be taken out and opened back up to hunting. I'm sure 
that the Park Service and the Committee and DNR will be looking 
into that. At the same time, if we have a national park 
designation by law there can be no hunting.
    Let's leave those places that are heavily trafficked 
whether it's the Endless Wall, Cunard put in or the take outs, 
or up at Grandview or Long Point or places like that, we'll 
keep them as a park. Everything else should be a preserve. And 
if there was enough money, I would ask that the Committee tell 
the Park Service to buy 5,000 or 6,000 extra acres and open 'em 
to hunting.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Skaggs. My name is John Skaggs, S-k-a-g-g-s. I'm a 
river guide, rock climbing guide, assistant pastor in the area. 
I've grown up in North Fayette County all of my life and my dad 
took me hunting and fishing--take me out of school and take me 
hunting and fishing just for fun--but I love the area, love 
West Virginia.
    Some of the concerns that I have is I do think we need 
economic growth in Fayette County, I understand that. But if we 
doubled the attendance in our national park, national parks are 
there to preserve the land, preserve the access to that land 
and a fear that I have is that looking ahead is will the 
increased attendance in our national parks increase 
environmental impact, I've seen that over the 20, 30 years of 
being in the Gorge in some of the areas. If we increase that, 
then I appreciate our Park Service and their preservation of 
those areas, but will that increase regulation? I'm sure it 
will increase commercial fees and those kinds of things.
    Not too bad if you're a large organization or a large 
company, but if you're a smaller company or smaller guiding 
service, some of those fees start to weed out some of the 
smaller companies. But those are some of the fears and concerns 
that I would have with increased fees, increased regulation and 
then also, perhaps, decrease in access. As an avid hunter and 
fisherman, I think that once land is lost it's not going to 
come back as far as access and I think responsibility in some 
of the high traffic areas could be an opportunity for 
restriction, but I hate to see any of our land being taken away 
as far as access for hunting.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir, very much.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Berkley. While our next speaker is coming up, we'd ask 
Mr. Charles T. Earehart, Dr. Burnette and Ms. Angie Rosser to 
come down to the front.
    Senator Manchin. If you all would come to the front on the 
sides there, and we will be prepared to go.
    Yes, sir?
    Mr. Blankenship. Senators, thank you. I'm Roy Blankenship. 
I speak under several hats.
    Senator Manchin. Roy Blankenship? It is Blankenship.
    Mr. Blankenship. Blankenship.
    Senator Manchin. Blankenship, okay.
    Mr. Blankenship. I run a small company on the New River. I 
have for 10 years. I've guided for 23 years. I am for tourism, 
but also fear this. You know, I grew up here, got 23 years, 
almost half my life, hunted about 45 days, I was on the water 
90 days.
    One of my questions as a small guide, will there be fees 
added for river usage? I have clients that come down. They fish 
with us, some of the other guides, and then they take their own 
boats out. Will they have to apply for permits? You know, some 
people get off work, they decide to roll out, short notice, so 
that's a concern.
    I also speak as a hunter, I have friends that bear hunt. We 
don't have a whole lot of deer and we feel that's part of the 
reason. Will the bear hunters still be allowed to use dogs in 
the area?--is one of the concerns that they're having.
    For myself, I'm also a schoolteacher and I'm concerned with 
kids. I understand a lot of this is about money for the area 
and I am for tourism, you know, I work in that, but also see it 
as a fluctuating industry. We have three major highways and 
railroads are here but yet, we're ranked 49th, I think, under 
Forbes as an economy to do business here. You know, there's 
more that needs to be done other than tourism. I'm for tourism, 
but there's a lot of other things we need to look at as well, 
you know, when you start just relying on one industry.
    That's all I have to say.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Earehart. Hello, I'm Charles Thomas Earehart. I've 
known Joe Manchin and his wife at First Baptist Church when 
they've been there. I met Ms. Capito at a fundraiser thing in 
New River Park, the first time I met her. And Rick Johnson and 
his wife, they go to church with me, in the same church.
    Anyway, I love all these guys. Mr. Rappold, Larry Berry. 
Mr. Berry is a wonderful retired DNR guy, Department of Natural 
Resources, and he knows what my problem is, the Calvin Price 
State Forest suddenly got impacted by Nicky Joe Rahall's 
liberal group. They closed it down. Spice Ridge Trail is a 
historical trail going from, it starts over in Callaghan, goes 
up through near Sherwood Lake and Moncove Lake, goes across 
through Spice Ridge, goes through Little Creek, across the 
mountain to Marlinton. The Indians used it. It's part of the 
Indian trail that went across Route 6 interstate. It's part of 
that trail that went west.
    The National Forest people came into our hunting camp. We 
had it leased since 1935. It was three acres in the middle of 
Calvin Price State Forest. There's about four of 'em came in. 
It was two DNR people. They ate dinner with us and they drank 
coffee and told us that they was going to put a gate on the 
trail to keep people from going up the trail, causing problems, 
some cans and bottles and stuff and partying. Alright, they 
told us we would get a key to that gate. It was only leasings, 
Calvin Price State Forest since 1935.
    When New River Land Company owned it, they leased it. New 
River Land Company sold it to the Department of Natural 
Resources, West Virginia, using hunting and fishing license 
money. At the same time they did, it was near the same time 
that Plum Orchard Lake was funded by the same money, hunting 
and fishing license money of West Virginia.
    This lady here, she works for a good company but she's not 
for the sportsmen of West Virginia. She's got a job to make 
money and she's not going to support the hunters and fishermen 
of West Virginia. Rick is making----
    Senator Manchin. Sir? Sir, your time----
    Mr. Earehart. I'm not watching the red light, Mr. Manchin, 
because I'm trying--well, I'll just talk to these people----
    Senator Manchin. No, no, sir. Sir?
    Mr. Earehart. Anyway, you all run me off.
    Senator Manchin. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
    Mr. Earehart. They stole our trails----
    Senator Manchin. No, no. This is, we are being fair for 
everybody. You have gone over a whole minute.
    Mr. Earehart. Mr. Manchin?
    Senator Manchin. You are welcome to stay afterwards, sir, 
but you have a gentleman waiting to speak.
    Mr. Earehart. I've been waiting since--you turned the mic 
off----
    Senator Manchin. No, we didn't turn the mic off.
    [Authorities escort Mr. Earehart out of the room.]
    Senator Manchin. Please sir, come on up, if you will.
    Mr. Earehart. Mr. Manchin doesn't want me to talk.
    Senator Manchin. No, we want you to talk. We just want to 
let everybody else talk too, sir.
    Mr. Earehart. I've been waiting here----
    Senator Manchin. You can talk.
    Mr. Earehart. All I've got to say is, it's a legal thing 
taken away from us. Rick's got a good job----
    Senator Manchin. Sir, if you would move on up, come on up.
    Mr. Earehart. [Inaudible.]
    Senator Manchin. Go ahead, sir.
    Dr. Burnette. Hi.
    Senator Manchin. Is it turned on? How do we turn----
    Dr. Burnette. Hello. Hi, I'm Dr. Greg Burnette, B-u-r-n-e-
t-t----
    Senator Manchin. Doctor, if you would hold that up close to 
you.
    Dr. Burnette. B-u-r-n-e-t-t-e. I'm a DNR Commissioner, but 
I want to make it known that I'm not speaking for the DNR or 
the Commission. Senator Manchin, Senator Capito, thank you.
    I'm speaking as a sportsman for 62 years in West Virginia. 
First, I'm against taking away any hunting for the citizens. 
It's part of our heritage. Also, at age 62, I know those 
decisions are above my pay grade and sometimes I see the 
writing on the wall.
    I want to throw out a term, mitigation. We have 77,000 
acres. If 7,000 are taken away, can that be mitigated? Through 
habitat enhancement, additional property? If we're going to 
take it away from the hunters, let's give them something in 
return. That would, yeah, habitat enhancement, would increase 
the game numbers, deer, bear, turkey. It would also give time 
or give a habitat for critically endangered bird species, 
yellow-winged warblers, cerulean warbler. It would help the 
hunter, plus it would help the bird-watchers and hikers. It 
would be a win-win for everyone if that could be taken into 
consideration.
    I don't know the law, don't know the legality, but that's 
what lawyers are paid for. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Doctor.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Berkley. As our next speaker is coming, we'd like the 
following speakers to get ready--Mr. John Kauff, Mr. Mitchell 
Smith and Mr. Brad Jarrell.
    Ms. Rosser. Hello, I'm Angie Rosser, R-o-s-s-e-r, here 
representing the West Virginia Rivers Coalition. Thank you, 
Senators, for hosting this field hearing. It's really 
important, and I see how much you're valuing the public input 
here today. So very important for us here and exciting for us 
to see this effort to elevate this special, iconic place, this 
New River Gorge on a higher scale, something that we need to do 
more of in West Virginia and recognizing that our rivers and 
the outdoor recreational opportunities they attract is a 
valuable asset for economic development and diversification, 
something that we need to happen--an all-hands-on-deck effort 
to figure out what the future of our state and economic future 
will be here, especially in Southern West Virginia.
    So I applaud your efforts and making and using this bill as 
a vehicle for that. And also acknowledging that for generations 
we have used this land to forage, hunt, fish, swim, hike, bird 
watch, boat, rock climb and bike and to hear that you are 
taking into consideration how to balance all of those uses in a 
responsible and fair way is also heartening.
    What we're hearing is that the benefit of this is increased 
visitation. When we--and double-digit increases, okay. Our two 
concerns about that is the environmental footprint, the impact, 
and that we have the resources to protect and preserve the 
resource and also to preserve the visitor experience, that we 
are making sure, I mean, it's been mentioned already, currently 
people can't find parking spots at Endless Wall or at the Glade 
Creek put in. They're parking outside the designated area. That 
results in more litter, more sedimentation. That compromises 
both the visitor experience and environmental health.
    So our question is, you know, what is the analysis in terms 
of how are we going to absorb and respond to this increased 
visitation? How do we make sure that Ms. Watts has the 
resources she needs in terms of staffing, in terms of 
infrastructure to help adapt to this increase? And how can we 
make this park, this place, better than it is now? How can this 
bill be an opportunity to make it better than it ever was 
before in terms of a visitor experience and possibly an 
expansion of the park so we have more for everybody to go 
around?
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Just pick that up a little bit, John. 
There you go. You can pull that down if you want to. Okay.
    Mr. Kauff. John Kauff, K-a-u-f-f.
    I'm a lifelong resident of Fayette County in Fayetteville, 
West Virginia, and I'm opposed to the redesignation and the 
reason being is because, lifelong hunter, but one of the big 
things is, is for one thing, just to, kind of, caveat on her, 
to maximize the exposure to the designation is the hunters use 
the Park Service, or the park, in the fall and the wintertime. 
Well, why not, you know, capitalize on that because that's when 
you would be, you know, the summertime is when the rafters and 
the rock climbers and all that. You would be capitalizing on 
the hunters from all over the country in the summer and then 
that circled area, I use that during the hunting season. Who 
uses that during hunting season? I mean, and then a lot of the 
hunters have already left because they, you know, they feel 
like we're not being heard, but I just wanted to say that.
    Senator Manchin. Oh no, you are being heard.
    Mr. Kauff. Alright.
    Senator Manchin. We appreciate you coming up, sir, thank 
you.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Smith. Hello, I'm Mitchell Smith. I'm a----
    Senator Manchin. Mitchell, hold that up closer to you.
    Mr. Smith. I'm a property owner on the river, on the New 
River itself. I would like clarification over what rights and 
restrictions are going to be, you know, implemented to private 
owners, you know, for our property.
    Senator Manchin. I am understanding there is no 
infringement, whatsoever, on private owners, but we will 
clarify everything and make sure the language is proper.
    Mr. Smith. And as, such as now we're under, governed by 
Raleigh County, or Fayette County Building, we just want to 
make sure there's going to--nothing----
    Senator Manchin. That stays the same.
    Mr. Smith. ----that they don't restrict what we can do with 
our property.
    Senator Manchin. Yes, nothing changes.
    Mr. Smith. Okay.
    And the second thing is, you know, by living there, you 
know, through the summer I see the tourist people come. It's a 
great thing and the Parks people do a wonderful job, but 
they're woefully understaffed. They don't have the resources. 
Your infrastructure sucks. I mean----
    [Laughter.]
    ----just flat out. Your--they don't have the money to 
maintain what they have unless you, Senators, appropriate money 
for this. If you get a 20 percent increase of visitors, it's 
going to be really bad. I mean, on a busy day you can't get to 
the ramp anyway. So unless you're willing to put out the money, 
don't increase the amount of people who are coming or it's just 
going to be a very bad thing.
    Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Berkley. As our next speaker is coming, would the 
following speakers be prepared? Mr. Keith Richardson, Mr. 
Nathaniel Begley and Mr. Steven Martin.
    Mr. Jarrell. Hi, my name is Brad Jarrell. I grew up in 
Fayetteville and now live in Raleigh County.
    As the last gentleman spoke about the infrastructure within 
the boundaries, I want to talk about the infrastructure outside 
of the boundaries. It's not ready for hundreds of thousands of 
people a year. Growing up in Fayette County, the roads, the 
utilities, all that stuff, it's deteriorating, it's gone, 
it's--they're not replacing it right now. There's areas that 
cannot handle this many people.
    I'd like to know if all the hunters, I'm a hunter myself, 
if all the hunters are happy, everybody else is for the bill is 
happy, and this goes through, what happens to the surrounding 
area? As far as, I guess it comes down to money at that point. 
Where does that come from? The Parks are going to have their--
they're probably going to get fees. They're probably going to 
do all that stuff, get their own money. Where does the 
surrounding area acquire that?
    That's all I have. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Let me clarify real--I know we are over 
the allotted time. We are willing, Senator Capito and I will 
stay as long as possible to make sure everybody gets heard.
    Also, the questions, when you all make your statements and 
there is like a question in your statement, I just asked the 
staff here and they will contact you back with the correct 
answer that we have, the way the bill has been drafted, to 
answer your question to the best of their ability. So everyone 
will get correct answers.
    Sir, I am sorry.
    Mr. Martin. Hello, I'm Steven Martin. It's spelled, S-t-e-
v-e-n M-a-r-t-i-n.
    First off, I want to thank you all for letting me, allowing 
me to speak today.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Martin. It's good to meet you, Senator Capito, you, 
Senator Manchin, all the distinguished guests.
    What I wanted to talk about is something that's very near 
to my family and to me. It's not real popular. You might not 
know about it, but it's the Martin Graveyard. It's located 
inside of the Park, and we're concerned about the access to it. 
I do have the permit where we can go take care of it, but the 
road is deteriorating and we don't have access no more to 
actually drive to it and we're concerned with that.
    And also, I would just like to make a point about me being 
a sportsman and my family. I've been on every trail in the 
park, me and my children, my wife. I want to continue to better 
use it, but I'm a hunter also and I think it could be for both 
the hunters and hikers, bicyclers, everybody. First off, 
there's a hunting season and it doesn't last that long, it's 
only a quarter of the year. So I think that there would be ways 
that that could work out in all areas of the park.
    But I've never been shot at. I know the gentleman said that 
he was shot at by a hunter, but I'm sure you, Mr. Manchin, 
would know if somebody is bearing down on you with a rifle, 
you're going to kill 'em if you shoot at 'em.
    Senator Manchin. I'm very cautious when I am hunting.
    Mr. Martin. Sure. I've never been shot at while hunting 
that I know of, but I do think that it could all work together 
for both and it would be beneficial for West Virginia. Just 
like I said, there's a hunting season. It brings a tremendous 
amount.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Mr. Martin. And on the last note, don't make your decisions 

on the love of money. Don't let greed be a part in this 
decision-making.
    [Applause.]
    Make sure--doing what's right might not be the most popular 
thing. You see what I'm talking about.
    Senator Manchin. Gotcha.
    Mr. Martin. And I thank you for your time.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Berkley. While our next speaker is coming, would the 
following speakers prepare: Ms. Kristy Grant-Hart, Ms. Terri 
Giles and Ms. Sharon Cruikshank.
    Mr. Love. Are you ready?
    Senator Manchin. Ready.
    Mr. Love. Are you ready to roll with this?
    Senator Manchin. Ready to rock and roll.
    Mr. Love. My name is Peyton Love, and I've been blessed by 
the good Lord to be able to spend a good bit of my life in that 
big circle up in that video.
    Senator Manchin. I have been on a river with Peyton too.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Love. I've been a kayaker for 22 years and I love it, 
and I've got a lot of questions answered here. I really 
appreciate you all trying to do something for the state.
    Senator Manchin. Right.
    Mr. Love. After rafting with you this year----
    Senator Manchin. Yes.
    Mr. Love. ----you're my favorite politician.
    Senator Manchin. Oh boy.
    [Laughter.]
    He threw me in the river too.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Love. I did.
    Anyway, my concern was, you know, are they going to fee me 
because, like Bill Lehrter said, sometimes we get off work, we 
go do a river run. We want to be able to just go, ``oh, we're 
going to do a river run,'' and not have to do a permit. Now 
with the numbers going down, it hasn't been going up, but I've 
been hearing people say it's going up. It hadn't been going up, 
it's gone up on the weekends. And it sounds like this proposal, 
I'm not against, nor am I for it, I'm on the fence throwing 
pebbles at both sides. So my pebble I'm going to throw to this 
side is why are you going to put money into the tourism only if 
we become a park?
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. You are going to----
    Mr. Love. I'm not going to drop a mic because I own a mic, 
and I know how much they cost.
    [Laughter.]
    Anyway, that's my biggest question on that.
    Senator Manchin. We are going to get you an answer to that 
too, Peyton. We will get you an answer.
    Mr. Love. You know, I mean, let's--we used to do--I worked 
at another company before Adventures on the Gorge. I love my 
company, thank you guys for having me. I hope you'll have me 
after this talk.
    [Laughter.]
    But back when I started this, they gave us promotional 
money and the numbers were better. There is another thing with 
the baby boomers. You're a baby boomer, right? And you took 
your kids and you went on a week-long vacation. My people, 
Generation X, they go just for the weekend and now you have the 
Millennials. You can't get them off the cell phones.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Peyton.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Grant-Hart. Hello, Senators, thank you so much for 
having this discussion. My name is Kristy Grant-Hart. K-r-i-s-
t-y G-r-a-n-t-H-a-r-t. And I have a different perspective, 
because I'm a new mountaineer. So my husband and I came and 
visited two years ago, absolutely fell in love with the place 
and we bought 38 acres and 12 cabins and are now running a 
business in West Virginia. And I think--I spent the last nine 
years in England. I want to speak on the international 
perspective.
    My in-laws have visited basically 10 national parks, and 
they come because of that designation. If you're looking for 
international visitors and for the reputation of West Virginia 
throughout the entire United States and the world, this makes 
an enormous difference. People see national parks differently 
and in order to grow the reputation to what, I think, it should 
be, I mean, I came here and said, this is the prettiest place 
I've ever been and I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't come 
and that designation will bring people who will tell their 
friends that they should come here because it's amazing.
    Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Do we have more, Terri?
    Ms. Berkley. Yes, sir. The last four speakers are Mr. 
Charles McCue, Ms. Heidi Prior, Ms. Elizabeth Slone and Ms. 
Debbie Lamey.
    Senator Manchin. If they would step to the front on the 
sides there, and we will go in order.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Giles. Hello, my name is Terri Giles, and I'm from 
Hinton, West Virginia, and I grew up there and moved back there 
to run a business that focuses on environmental sustainability 
and economic development. I wanted to thank both Senator 
Manchin and Senator Capito for leading the charge on this.
    As the previous speaker mentioned, a designation of a 
national park changes the story for everyone here. While I'm 
concerned about the money for the infrastructure as well and 
also the access for hunters, having grown up there, we've put 
millions of dollars in Summers County for my business. I'm the 
Vice President of Appalachian Headwaters. We're doing big 
things in Summers County, as the Commissioner mentioned, in 
conjunction with other counties, so we would like to have our 
areas that are very special in the world to be recognized.
    And I thank both of you for leading the charge on this. I 
believe, sincerely, that both of you will consider all the 
wants and needs of the citizens here in our area of how we can 
have a compromise, to both have a national park as well as 
access for our hunters and other people who enjoy the outdoors, 
including--and please encourage people to stop spraying. I run 
the Appalachian Beekeeping Collective, and we don't want our 
bees killed anymore.
    But thank you both.
    Senator Manchin. Thanks, Terri.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Cruikshank. Good morning.
    Senator Capito. Morning.
    Ms. Cruikshank. Thank you all for coming to our area.
    Senator Manchin. A little closer, if you will, and your 
name, please.
    Ms. Cruikshank. A little closer and my name is Sharon 
Cruikshank, spelled C-r-u-i-k-s-h-a-n-k.
    I'm speaking for myself. I have no company. I represent no 
one today, but I did want to speak. I support this endeavor; 
however, I have concerns. I'm not a hunter. I'm not a rafter. 
I'm not a rock climber. I do hike and I used to ride my horses 
in the Gorge quite often.
    My concerns are the parking. We have issues with parking. 
We have people being towed. This isn't what we want to have for 
our companies, whether you're a fishing company, hunting 
company, climbing company, we want to be open to everything. I 
think there's a way that we can have a compromise, that we have 
hunting as well as the national park.
    My other concern is water quality, the infrastructure. I 
think these issues, if we're looking at all this then we need 
to look at the whole picture and not just limit ourselves to 
one issue or another. We're all neighbors, and we all get 
along. Thank you all for your time very much.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you very much.
    [Applause.]
    Is this our last?
    Ms. Berkley. Two more after----
    Senator Manchin. Two more presenters after this, okay. 
Thank you all for being so patient.
    Mr. McCue. My name's Charles McCue. Last name is spelled, 
M-c-C-u-e. I'm a lifelong resident and a native of here, in 
West Virginia. I've got a formal education in forestry and 
wildlife, and I've spent most of my career guiding recreational 
industries, working on the rivers as a raft guide, working out 
West as a big game guide. I come here today to represent the 
West Virginia Trappers Association (WVTA). I'm a Director on 
the Board of Directors. We are a non-profit, outdoorsmen and 
women association dedicated to the education of better wildlife 
management and ethical harvesting.
    First, I would like to say we, the outdoorsmen and women of 
the WVTA, are pleased with the current recreational 
opportunities and the Park Service management of our national 
recreation area.
    Our first and biggest concern is the loss of public land 
use rights due to urban and suburban and rules for all, higher 
land taxes causing the leasing of private landholdings and more 
government restrictions on private land. We, the people of West 
Virginia, have seen a continual loss of land use rights on both 
private and public land, leaving many residents and visitors of 
our state with only the use of our public lands. Creating a 
national park, we are sure, through historical fact, will 
reduce, restrict or maybe even remove many or all of these 
rights.
    We at the West Virginia Trappers Association already know 
the right to harvest fur-bearing animals was taken away 
immediately upon the making of the national recreation area 
thus removing the wildlife manager's ability to control certain 
animal populations in these ecosystems. Many of the residents 
of our state depend on these renewable resources in our daily 
and annual lives.
    Pardon me.
    The concerns are many bringing the West Virginia Trappers 
Association, being represented by 500+ outdoorsmen and 
outdoorswomen of the State of West Virginia, to the conclusion 
that we do not support the making of our recreation area into a 
national park. Thank you for your time and consideration. Have 
a good day.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, sir.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Prior. Hi, my name is Heidi Prior. I am here as just a 
resident of Fayette County today and a mom and I think as we 
saw the folks that have come up and speak I'd like to say and 
note that there weren't as many females speaking and so, I find 
myself in a duty to speak on behalf of the mothers of the New 
River Gorge.
    I want my six-year-old to be proud of where he's from and 
this would do that, and I think that's more important. I want 
him to have good schools. I want him to have a job when he 
graduates, and yes, I eat meat. I'm not a hunter, but I eat 
meat and that is the heart and soul of what we're trying to do 
here is raise the next generation. So the men have definitely 
spoke, what I encourage is the women and the moms and the dads 
to speak as well and--I'm nervous and I'm talking about my kid.
    [Laughter.]
    But the other thing too is I do dabble in politics a bit. 
There is a bill called Restore Our Parks Act. I don't know a 
lot about it, but if you care about her funding [motions toward 
Ms. Watts], vote for that bill. There's answers to all this. 
So, please, you guys, think of the next generation more than 
your hobby. Thanks.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you. Well said.
    [Applause.]
    Ms. Slone. Hi, my name is Elizabeth Slone, S-l-o-n-e.
    The New River Gorge is beautiful, but I don't believe that 
it is up to the national park standards. Would Wolf Creek be 
the gem of the new park? Its headwaters are polluted from 
injection wells near the headwaters. How many national parks 
have you visited where you can see a sign which reads, 
``Warning, No Swimming, Fecal Coliform''?
    [Applause.]
    Such a sign exists at Keeneys Creek. If this does become a 
park, I just really want to see that we spend the money 
cleaning up the Gorge before we spend it on parking lots.
    The last thing I'll say is about the hunting area and you 
saying that it's too steep, it doesn't get used. The steepness 
is what makes it the challenge and that's what's awesome about 
hunting. And the turkey that I pulled out of my deep freeze 
last week and made turkey soup with, it was from that area.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. Thank you.
    This is our last speaker and, again, we thank all of you so 
much. We will have a few comments.
    Ms. Lamey. Hi, my name is Debbie Lamey. I did not plan to 
speak today. I'll try not to bumble this, but I appreciate the 
opportunity, Senators.
    Senator Manchin. Sure.
    Ms. Lamey. I am here personally, but also as a member of 
Friends of New River Gorge National River. I have grown up in 
this area. I grew up with hunters. I grew up with coal miners. 
I am married to an avid fisherman. I care about our area in 
general and everything that happens to it. I am in support of 
anything that will benefit our area, bring more people to see 
the beautiful place that I have enjoyed my whole life.
    I have climbed it. I have hiked it. We raft it. We frequent 
the restaurants. And one thing that I would like to say is that 
so many people here seem to be concerned with fees. Our park 
has never charged fees. Our park does not plan to charge fees 
but one way that you can help assuage that is do you--step into 
your visitor center and drop money in the donation box. Go out 
and enjoy your park. Go hunt. I support you to hunt. However, I 
think we have to co-exist. I have stepped off of a hiking trail 
and walked up to a hunter with a gun and a vest. That is highly 
uncomfortable for me. I ask that you respect my area and let me 
enjoy my park as well as you enjoying my park.
    And another thing that you can do is our group, Friends of 
New River Gorge, our whole entire existence is based upon 
supporting the national park in whatever form, whether it is 
contained--whether it continues to be a national river or it 
becomes a national park. We will continue to do that. So every 
dollar that you donate to Friends of New River Gorge goes 
straight to the park and whatever their needs are, things that 
the government might not be able to hand them funds for right 
now, but they have needs for and that we can help them support 
and give them money for and fundraise for.
    So please, if you're going to utilize the park, please 
support it in other ways. Give to our organization, listen to 
other legislation that's out there and give to the National 
Park Service Visitor Centers.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you so much.
    [Applause.]
    As we wrap up, let me say a few things for housekeeping, if 
I can. I want to recognize also, the people that, again, that 
made this possible. First of all, to our video, Dan, and to our 
audio, I want to thank them. To Al Hancock, who came all the 
way from Bluefield. He is a two-war veteran, served our country 
tremendously. I appreciate him.
    [Applause.]
    To the Energy Committee that made this a formal public 
hearing for the record. They came from Washington, DC. We have 
David, Peter, Renae, Sam, Lucy, Annie, Darla and Lindsay and 
all of them--raise your hands, raise your hands.
    [Applause.]
    This is our Democrat and Republican staffs working 
together. Senator Capito's staff has been working extremely 
hard, and we appreciate all of them--Travis, Baxter, Adam, 
Todd, Mary Elizabeth.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Senator Manchin. To my staff, I am very proud of. I have 
Mara, Terri, Ali, Marcus and Wes.
    [Applause.]
    These are the people that made it possible and also, as far 
as closing statements, Senator Capito, if you have a statement 
to be made, and we will close.
    Senator Capito. Thank you, Senator Manchin. Thank all of 
you, and I want to thank the staff. When he mentioned the staff 
that came from DC, I said, well, that is economic development. 
We could have hearings here.
    [Laughter.]
    But we are glad they get to see our beautiful part of the 
state.
    I think the thing that strikes me more than anything is how 
passionate everybody is and well thought out the comments were. 
I know they were very representative of everybody in the 
audience. But it is about, I think, the balance is the issue 
that we are trying to find here because there were 45 people 
and I didn't get a chance to really split it, who opposed, but 
it was pretty evenly split, I think. But there were several 
people who said if we could make some changes here and there 
that may tip the balance for them, and that is the purpose of 
this meeting is for us to go back--Senator Manchin and I are on 
the same page here--working together to try to make the changes 
that we have heard today.
    The last thing I would say is I want to thank our panel, 
but particularly there was a lot of comment and concern about 
the over usage of the park, the lack of infrastructure of the 
park and the next to the last speaker mentioned a bill that 
both of us are very interested in, the Restore Our Parks Act, 
and I think we may be able to get that over. That is a 
bipartisan bill that will address some of the backlog in the 
national parks, and I think it would help here as well.
    [Applause.]
    So I would encourage you to look at that.
    I just really want to thank Senator Manchin for being the 
Ranking Member of a great Committee, and for bringing the 
Committee here. Thank you.
    Senator Manchin. Thank you, Senator.
    I will say ``ditto'' to all of that, but let me tell you 
that in the most toxic atmosphere of politics I have ever seen 
in my life that we live in today, this shows you how a civil 
meeting could be held and should be held. I am so proud of West 
Virginia.
    [Applause.]
    This bill has been conceived and considered in the most 
bipartisan way and not a political way at all, looking at how 
we best enhance our state and opportunities and protect our 
heritage, and we are trying to take all that into 
consideration. All of the statements you made are on video and 
on record, and they will be answered. It will be taken into 
consideration when S. 2555 is marked up.
    Senator Capito will come in as part, not on the Committee, 
but she will come in and testify for the bill too, and what we 
have been able to find out which makes it even more inclusive. 
So I am just so proud. I know how difficult this is as you all 
have mentioned, quite a few of the people who testified 
mentioned, this is difficult because you were concerned about 
your fellow Fayette Countian or fellow West Virginian that they 
might be upset with you, because you took one view and they 
took another. Well, welcome to our world.
    [Laughter.]
    But what we do is we have to find a way to come together, 
that is all, and really respect everyone and your positions you 
have taken. It has been a wonderful hearing. It is something 
that we look forward to, everyone involved here, all of our 
expert panel and all of them for testifying.
    Thank you. God bless each and every one of you, and we are 
dismissed.
    [Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

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